Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: Sunflower79 on May 14, 2006, 09:06 PM
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Since we have a topic about Ennis love for Jack..lets see if we can up with Jack showing his love for Ennis :)
Some of the scenes that come to my mind are
after Ennis coems back to camp at night and he was hurt by the bear and Jack tries to soothe him by wipping the blood from his face with his cloth..
the second tent scene..where Jack is tender and loving with Ennis. and the way he looks at him when he comes in just about melts me :)
the reunion kiss -true passion
when there lying in the motel room at night and there talking
when Jack tell Ennis he misses him so much..and he says it could be like this always, just like this..aww
Jack having his and Ennis shirts together in his closet
The first tent scene :o
:)
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I fell like almost everything he does, he does out of love for Ennis (even if that means letting him go). :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
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after Ennis coems back to camp at night and he was hurt by the bear and Jack tries to soothe him by wipping the blood from his face with his cloth..
I was well past my tenth viewing before I noticed that Jack took off HIS scarf while trying to tend to the dried blood on Ennis's face. One minute before, he was mad because there was nothing to eat. Next thing...he's concerned about Ennis. :'( :'(
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after Ennis coems back to camp at night and he was hurt by the bear and Jack tries to soothe him by wipping the blood from his face with his cloth..
I was well past my tenth viewing before I noticed that Jack took off HIS scarf while trying to tend to the dried blood on Ennis's face. One minute before, he was mad because there was noting to eat. Next thing...he's concerned about Ennis. :'( :'(
City Slickin' Cowboy, this is indeed very beautiful. Thanks. :)
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First reunion on the mountain, after Ennis tells Jack they cannot have a life together but only some reunions in the wilderness once in a while. Jack is indeed disappointed but he has this gesture of love and tenderness when he gently grabs Ennis ear and caress his cheek :'( Look at the eyes, both of them :'( :'( :'(
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi63.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh137%2Fchameau_7%2Fbbm1009.jpg&hash=ba7d39d8262bc1ddacc7eaad73debd6a1cea80b2)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi63.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh137%2Fchameau_7%2Fbbm1008.jpg&hash=2066c680ad95262d1048d53bf98e94fe71772c09)
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First reunion on the mountain, after Ennis tells Jack they cannot have a life together but only some reunions in the wilderness once in a while. Jack is indeed disappointed but he has this gesture of love and tenderness when he gently grabs Ennis ear and caress his cheek :'( Look at the eyes, both of them :'( :'( :'(
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi63.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh137%2Fchameau_7%2Fbbm1009.jpg&hash=ba7d39d8262bc1ddacc7eaad73debd6a1cea80b2)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi63.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh137%2Fchameau_7%2Fbbm1008.jpg&hash=2066c680ad95262d1048d53bf98e94fe71772c09)
Cham, I love that - even though Ennis has just shot Jack's airplane out of the sky (thanks, Annie!), Jack loves him so much that he doesn't even consider fighting with him about it, he just reaches out and soothes Ennis with the gentlest of touches. I absolutely adore that little caress of his ear and stroke of his cheek and then, as the shot fades out, he slips his hand round to Ennis's neck and twines his fingers through his hair. If that ain't a sign of true love, I dunno what is.
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Cham, I love that - even though Ennis has just shot Jack's airplane out of the sky (thanks, Annie!), Jack loves him so much that he doesn't even consider fighting with him about it, he just reaches out and soothes Ennis with the gentlest of touches. I absolutely adore that little caress of his ear and stroke of his cheek and then, as the shot fades out, he slips his hand round to Ennis's neck and twines his fingers through his hair. If that ain't a sign of true love, I dunno what is.
Oh me too, I love how Jack just takes the rejection but his love for Ennis is too strong to give up. The way he looks at Ennis, the way he touches him, it's so so tender and beautiful.
I think Jack's love for Ennis is so clear throughout the whole film......simply by the way Jack keeps coming back to Ennis, even after being rejected by Ennis over and over again.
In the post-divorce scene, when Jack comes to see Ennis, all happy and excited, only to leave a few minutes later, heartbroken and devastated, do you notice how it is JACK who says to ENNIS "I'll see you next month then"? Even after being rejected by Ennis, yet again, even knowing he's driven all that way for nothing, his love for Ennis is constant and knows that if this is all he can have of Ennis, then so be it. I think that is a real testament to his love. :'( :'( :'(
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In the post-divorce scene, when Jack comes to see Ennis, all happy and excited, only to leave a few minutes later, heartbroken and devastated, do you notice how it is JACK who says to ENNIS "I'll see you next month then"? Even after being rejected by Ennis, yet again, even knowing he's driven all that way for nothing, his love for Ennis is constant and knows that if this is all he can have of Ennis, then so be it. I think that is a real testament to his love. :'( :'( :'(
Oh, god yeah, you're so right. He's just driven 14 hours and had his dreams shattererd again (this is the only point of the movie where I find myself angry at Ennis for the way he is) but he knows that his feelings are too strong to even consider saying "fine, forget it then".
You know, the more I think about how Jack is with Ennis throughout, the more I think he's absolutely justified in his words at the end. I've always watched from Ennis's POV before, but this thread is making me want to try to watch from Jack's....
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First reunion on the mountain, after Ennis tells Jack they cannot have a life together but only some reunions in the wilderness once in a while. Jack is indeed disappointed but he has this gesture of love and tenderness when he gently grabs Ennis ear and caress his cheek :'( Look at the eyes, both of them :'( :'( :'(
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi63.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh137%2Fchameau_7%2Fbbm1009.jpg&hash=ba7d39d8262bc1ddacc7eaad73debd6a1cea80b2)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi63.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh137%2Fchameau_7%2Fbbm1008.jpg&hash=2066c680ad95262d1048d53bf98e94fe71772c09)
God. What a way for me to strart the morning...
Painfully beautiful.
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First reunion on the mountain, after Ennis tells Jack they cannot have a life together but only some reunions in the wilderness once in a while. Jack is indeed disappointed but he has this gesture of love and tenderness when he gently grabs Ennis ear and caress his cheek :'( Look at the eyes, both of them :'( :'( :'(
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi63.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh137%2Fchameau_7%2Fbbm1009.jpg&hash=ba7d39d8262bc1ddacc7eaad73debd6a1cea80b2)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi63.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh137%2Fchameau_7%2Fbbm1008.jpg&hash=2066c680ad95262d1048d53bf98e94fe71772c09)
God. What a way for me to strart the morning...
Painfully beautiful.
I know tpe, it is so painfully beautiful. Look at the way Jack is looking at Ennis. Pure, unbridled love.
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In the post-divorce scene, when Jack comes to see Ennis, all happy and excited, only to leave a few minutes later, heartbroken and devastated, do you notice how it is JACK who says to ENNIS "I'll see you next month then"? Even after being rejected by Ennis, yet again, even knowing he's driven all that way for nothing, his love for Ennis is constant and knows that if this is all he can have of Ennis, then so be it. I think that is a real testament to his love. :'( :'( :'(
Oh, god yeah, you're so right. He's just driven 14 hours and had his dreams shattererd again (this is the only point of the movie where I find myself angry at Ennis for the way he is) but he knows that his feelings are too strong to even consider saying "fine, forget it then".
You know, the more I think about how Jack is with Ennis throughout, the more I think he's absolutely justified in his words at the end. I've always watched from Ennis's POV before, but this thread is making me want to try to watch from Jack's....
Another killer scene.
All this is getting me too emotional for my own good.
Thanks all.
When he sees Ennis breaks down in their last meeting. He can barely pronounce the beloved's name: 'Ennis...Ennis'. The look in his face when he says this. It is beyond compassion. It is beyond death itself. Ennis pushes him away and yet he fights back to hug him. What dagger is this that Ang Lee thrusts into our hearts when he juxtaposes this embrace with the dozy embrace? Jack expressing his love in the former; Ennis expressing his love in the latter. Both are sexless. Both are beyond words.
The dozy embrace is perhaps the apex of Ennis's expression of love towards Jack. The final bitter embrace is testament to Jack's endurance: it is love that struggles against the backdrop of a sickness verily unto death.
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after Ennis coems back to camp at night and he was hurt by the bear and Jack tries to soothe him by wipping the blood from his face with his cloth..
I was well past my tenth viewing before I noticed that Jack took off HIS scarf while trying to tend to the dried blood on Ennis's face. One minute before, he was mad because there was nothing to eat. Next thing...he's concerned about Ennis. :'( :'(
I love this scene so much, from Jack sitting on his own going out of his mind wondering what's happened to Ennis, his smile of relief when he sees he's ok, his fake anger about having no food, his concern when he sees Ennis's injury, the loving way he tries to tend to him, the hurt and rejection in his eyes when Ennis takes the scarf off him, practically pushing him away...I think that whole part of the film was when Jack fully realised that he had feelings for Ennis.
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It was definitely a beginning. If there were no feelings on Jack's part he might not have made any attempt to tend to Ennis's wound.
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It was definitely a beginning. If there were no feelings on Jack's part he might not have made any attempt to tend to Ennis's wound.
Absolutely. It was a gut reaction, to see someone you care about in pain, and instinctively you want to make them better :)
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It was definitely a beginning. If there were no feelings on Jack's part he might not have made any attempt to tend to Ennis's wound.
Absolutely. It was a gut reaction, to see someone you care about in pain, and instictively you want to make them better :)
That sums up this scene. It's very touching and always makes me smile.
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Oh gosh, I'm nearly crying here once again since those scenes are just absolutely beautiful and they make my heart melt. :'( <3
I love it when Jack takes his scarf off and tries to tend Ennis' wound. Pure fondness and love. I also love the scene when they're last time at Brokeback Mountain. How Ennis just shouts at him to keep away but Jack hugs and holds him. I can feel Jack's LOVE towards Ennis.
Naturally we're not able to forget their little wrestling before leaving Brokeback.. How Ennis' nose starts to bleed and Jack looks so worried. :-[
(Btw, I _love that picture where Jack's touching Ennis' cheek gently. *___*)
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For me another key scene where you see Jack's love for Ennis is when he meets Lureen in the bar and is dancing with her ("no one's gonna love you like me. . . "). They are smiling and talking, but then at one moment you see him looking over her shoulder with desolation in his eyes, and you know he is thinking of Ennis. If only they were holding one another instead. :(
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Oh gosh, I'm nearly crying here once again since those scenes are just absolutely beautiful and they make my heart melt. :'( <3
I love it when Jack takes his scarf off and tries to tend Ennis' wound. Pure fondness and love. I also love the scene when they're last time at Brokeback Mountain. How Ennis just shouts at him to keep away but Jack hugs and holds him. I can feel Jack's LOVE towards Ennis.
Naturally we're not able to forget their little wrestling before leaving Brokeback.. How Ennis' nose starts to bleed and Jack looks so worried. :-[
(Btw, I _love that picture where Jack's touching Ennis' cheek gently. *___*)
Oh god, that fight on Brokeback - Ennis starts the fight, Jack is forced to hit Ennis to prove something (although it's written in the book as an accident, it doesn't look like that to me in the film), and then as soon as he sees Ennis is hurt, he's there to tend to him, whispering "Ennis, Ennis, come here, its alright". He's so loving and tender. He just adores that man. :'(
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Oh god, that fight on Brokeback - Ennis starts the fight, Jack is forced to hit Ennis to prove something (although it's written in the book as an accident, it doesn't look like that to me in the film), and then as soon as he sees Ennis is hurt, he's there to tend to him, whispering "Ennis, Ennis, come here, its alright". He's so loving and tender. He just adores that man. :'(
Ah, I really do believe it was an accident when Jack hit Ennis - he doesn't hit him with a punch, just with a flying elbow or something (it was his knee in the short story)
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I think Jack's probably the one that effects me most. I know most people seem to identify with Ennis more, but I've been a Jack-lover right from the beginning. I agree with what someone else said, I think everything that Jack does in the entire movie shows how much he loves Ennis. It's so hard to pick out one scene in particular, but the one I noticed when I was watching BBM again a couple of days ago : Just after the "you sit down, before I knock your ignorant ass into next week" line, just before he goes to carve the turkey, he has this look on his face:
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.tinypic.com%2Fztgr4x.jpg&hash=0efd8255e5741dfbcba77df811ac4bc0d8f1de76)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1.tinypic.com%2Fzthcg9.jpg&hash=5fd6330e2f42e6860024f2b95faf93e3ce4df43a)
That look on his face, on the first picture, I think shows that he's thinking about Ennis - and the reason he's shouting at his father-in-law and getting so angry is because he misses Ennis so much. Does everyone agree, or I am reading too much into it?
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I think Jack's probably the one that effects me most. I know most people seem to identify with Ennis more, but I've been a Jack-lover right from the beginning. I agree with what someone else said, I think everything that Jack does in the entire movie shows how much he loves Ennis. It's so hard to pick out one scene in particular, but the one I noticed when I was watching BBM again a couple of days ago : Just after the "you sit down, before I knock your ignorant ass into next week" line, just before he goes to carve the turkey, he has this look on his face:
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.tinypic.com%2Fztgr4x.jpg&hash=0efd8255e5741dfbcba77df811ac4bc0d8f1de76)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1.tinypic.com%2Fzthcg9.jpg&hash=5fd6330e2f42e6860024f2b95faf93e3ce4df43a)
That look on his face, on the first picture, I think shows that he's thinking about Ennis - and the reason he's shouting at his father-in-law and getting so angry is because he misses Ennis so much. Does everyone agree, or I am reading too much into it?
ande_nem, don't worry, you will find quite a number of Jack lovers in this forum also.
We all love Ennis and Jack. They are inseparable.
But there are deeply personal things that make each of us gravitate to either one... This is to be expected.
I, for one, am hopelessly in love with the character of Jack Twist.
I cannot say precisely why, except that he breaks my heart.
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Actually I also feel Jack a lot more closer character despite the fact that of course Ennis is so adorable and I love them both. But for me; it feels just easier to see myself in Jack. Maybe it's just because I'm that kind of person who needs love and tenderness and doesn't have strenght enough to wait for that kind of engaging forever..
I also thought that at the thanksgiving dinner Jack was thinking about Ennis and he started shouting since he was missing Ennis so much it hurted. + His father-in-law said:"Boys have to watch football" (or something). That comment had a little message:"Hey, real men do watch football. Real men don't cry. Real men are not homosexual." and it made Jack so upset. Or at least I got it like that..
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They both break my heart..
In the post-divorce scene, when Jack comes to see Ennis, all happy and excited, only to leave a few minutes later, heartbroken and devastated, do you notice how it is JACK who says to ENNIS "I'll see you next month then"? Even after being rejected by Ennis, yet again, even knowing he's driven all that way for nothing, his love for Ennis is constant and knows that if this is all he can have of Ennis, then so be it. I think that is a real testament to his love.
this scene defently breaks my heart, seeing Jack so exicted about seeing ennis after his divorce only to have his heart broken..so sad :'(
[Oh god, that fight on Brokeback - Ennis starts the fight, Jack is forced to hit Ennis to prove something (although it's written in the book as an accident, it doesn't look like that to me in the film), and then as soon as he sees Ennis is hurt, he's there to tend to him, whispering "Ennis, Ennis, come here, its alright". He's so loving and tender. He just adores that man.
/quote]
this scene also says so much and how much love Jack has for Ennis
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I think Jack's probably the one that effects me most. I know most people seem to identify with Ennis more, but I've been a Jack-lover right from the beginning. I agree with what someone else said, I think everything that Jack does in the entire movie shows how much he loves Ennis. It's so hard to pick out one scene in particular, but the one I noticed when I was watching BBM again a couple of days ago : Just after the "you sit down, before I knock your ignorant ass into next week" line, just before he goes to carve the turkey, he has this look on his face:
That look on his face, on the first picture, I think shows that he's thinking about Ennis - and the reason he's shouting at his father-in-law and getting so angry is because he misses Ennis so much. Does everyone agree, or I am reading too much into it?
I felt, at that moment, Jack was feeling completely trapped dealing with Lureen's father. It was his breaking point, and he was feeling overwhelmed finally standing up to him. It must've been awfully awkward during the rest of that T'day evening. Wonder if there was any small talk after that or they just finished the meal silently and just left...
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I felt, at that moment, Jack was feeling completely trapped dealing with Lureen's father. It was his breaking point, and he was feeling overwhelmed finally standing up to him. It must've been awfully awkward during the rest of that T'day evening. Wonder if there was any small talk after that or they just finished the meal silently and just left...
I imagine there was minimal small talk. I don't think the rest of the meal would have eaten in complete silence because of the child. My guess is Lureen would have initiated some conversation just to give the kid the impression everything was OK.
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That look on his face, on the first picture, I think shows that he's thinking about Ennis - and the reason he's shouting at his father-in-law and getting so angry is because he misses Ennis so much. Does everyone agree, or I am reading too much into it?
I did not answer this question. Yes, I thought the same thing.
This is the same look he has when Jack is subtly propositioned by Randall. He was also thinking of Ennis, IMO.
It is the same look when he looks out into the river after he tells Ennis about Lureen and the adding machine. You know excactly what is on his mind, in spite of what he says. 'For all it's worth' -- these words said by Jack project a double meaning for me...
Finally, it is the same look you see when he says 'Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.' You knew even before he said this that he had Ennis first and foremost in his mind -- even as he confesses his unfaithfulness in so oblique/indirect a manner.
Jake's acting is remarkably consistent. This is one such example. It is a deeply intellectual interpretation of a deeply felt characterization. And it is made doubly rich by the profundity of emotion used in building the character of Jack Twist.
Indeed, Jack's love for Ennis can almost be taken for granted -- until you realize the intellectual and emotional underpinnings of Gyllenhaal's interpretation. He makes all this seemingly invisible. That is where Jake Gyllenhaal's genius lies.
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These are really incredibly observations. I had never thought of that before, but it's so true that we see Jack's pain through this facial expression in so many moments:
-"it's nobody's business but ours"
-when he tries to buy Jimbo the rodeo clown a beer and is rebuffed
-dancing with Lureen the first time they meet (looking over her shoulder)
-watching Lureen with her parents after the baby is born
-"it could be a sweet life"
-when Randall propositions him
-"the truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it"
-watching Ennis drive away the last time they're together
And I know there are many other times. I have always been a bigger Heath/Ennis fan, but Jake really wins me over more and more, the more often I watch. Jack is a big-hearted man. :(
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These are really incredibly observations. I had never thought of that before, but it's so true that we see Jack's pain through this facial expression in so many moments:
-"it's nobody's business but ours"
-when he tries to buy Jimbo the rodeo clown a beer and is rebuffed
-dancing with Lureen the first time they meet (looking over her shoulder)
-watching Lureen with her parents after the baby is born
-"it could be a sweet life"
-when Randall propositions him
-"the truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it"
-watching Ennis drive away the last time they're together
And I know there are many other times. I have always been a bigger Heath/Ennis fan, but Jake really wins me over more and more, the more often I watch. Jack is a big-hearted man. :(
This is a superb listing.
-dancing with Lureen the first time they meet (looking over her shoulder) -- I had cited this in my last Poem & Pix. But I had forgotten to cite this here...
Beautiful. Simply beautiful, shieldmaid...
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OMG, this thread may well kill me! Every one of the moments you've all mentioned cuts deep. Shieldmaid, that list of yours hits so many of the beautiful Jack moments, it's like reliving his life all over again. :'(
The compassion and pity I feel for Ennis can't be compared to the heartbreak that Jack generates in me. His openness makes you want so to protect him, always, but he puts himself in harms way from the moment he and Ennis are bonded together. Would probably tell you it was worth the cost, too.
My heart starts breaking for him the morning after FNIT, when he walks out to catch Ennis about to ride off .. there is a quality in his voice when he says "See ya for supper", that just screams vulnerability, I think. And that look on his face, like he's waiting for what's coming next and doesn't expect much good to be said to him, although the hope is so strong you can almost touch it.
IMO, there are few scenes where you don't see Jack's love for Ennis, and I say that about his trip to Mexico, too. A great love lays itself open to great hurt and can send you on paths that might never otherwise be travelled. So I guess I see a lot of Jack's love for Ennis not just in the sweet things he says or does, but also in those moments when he might appear tainted to some.
OT - Tpe, I think we are united in our admiration for Jake Gyllenhaal, for how surpassingly brilliant he was in the nuances of portraying Jack Twist. I only see Jack Twist, never Jake when I'm immersed in BBM.
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OMG, this thread may well kill me! Every one of the moments you've all mentioned cuts deep. Shieldmaid, that list of yours hits so many of the beautiful Jack moments, it's like reliving his life all over again. :'(
The compassion and pity I feel for Ennis can't be compared to the heartbreak that Jack generates in me. His openness makes you want so to protect him, always, but he puts himself in harms way from the moment he and Ennis are bonded together. Would probably tell you it was worth the cost, too.
My heart starts breaking for him the morning after FNIT, when he walks out to catch Ennis about to ride off .. there is a quality in his voice when he says "See ya for supper", that just screams vulnerability, I think. And that look on his face, like he's waiting for what's coming next and doesn't expect much good to be said to him, although the hope is so strong you can almost touch it.
IMO, there are few scenes where you don't see Jack's love for Ennis, and I say that about his trip to Mexico, too. A great love lays itself open to great hurt and can send you on paths that might never otherwise be travelled. So I guess I see a lot of Jack's love for Ennis not just in the sweet things he says or does, but also in those moments when he might appear tainted to some.
OT - Tpe, I think we are united in our admiration for Jake Gyllenhaal, for how surpassingly brilliant he was in the nuances of portraying Jack Twist. I only see Jack Twist, never Jake when I'm immersed in BBM.
Indeed, in most of his movies, he does become invariably invisible. He submerges into the depths of his characters...
It is interesting that I always refer to Jack looking at a departing Ennis in the last meeting as Jack Twist's last scene in BBM. This is of course incorrect. The murder scene is the last scene.
I invariably don't reference this murder scene as Jack's last scene, if I can help it. It is too painful. EVEN IN THAT HORRIFIC SCENE, I THINK HE WAS THINKING ONLY OF ENNIS! I consider this to be the ultimate expression of Jack's love, even if its connection with Ennis is really tenuous, if not ambiguous, in both story and screenplay.
Jack was willing to die for his dream -- to take the risk. For this, I shall love him forever.
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IMO, there are few scenes where you don't see Jack's love for Ennis, and I say that about his trip to Mexico, too. A great love lays itself open to great hurt and can send you on paths that might never otherwise be travelled. So I guess I see a lot of Jack's love for Ennis not just in the sweet things he says or does, but also in those moments when he might appear tainted to some.
This is so true. That Mexico scene breaks my heart. Jack is just devastated. His dreams have basically been destroyed. You can tell he is hurting so much; he will do anything to dull the pain just for a little bit. You just know he is thinking about Ennis. Only someone you love deeply could hurt you that profoundly. Even that scene by the river when Ennis rebuffs Jack's idea of Ennis moving to Texas, you can tell Jack is so hurt and disappointed again. He loves Ennis with all his heart.
TPE: I'm sure Jack' s last thought this side of the grave was of Ennis. He never stopped loving him IMO.
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When he sees Ennis breaks down in their last meeting. He can barely pronounce the beloved's name: 'Ennis...Ennis'. The look in his face when he says this. It is beyond compassion. It is beyond death itself. Ennis pushes him away and yet he fights back to hug him. What dagger is this that Ang Lee thrusts into our hearts when he juxtaposes this embrace with the dozy embrace? Jack expressing his love in the former; Ennis expressing his love in the latter. Both are sexless. Both are beyond words.
The dozy embrace is perhaps the apex of Ennis's expression of love towards Jack. The final bitter embrace is testament to Jack's endurance: it is love that struggles against the backdrop of a sickness verily unto death.
:'(
Great posts everyone!
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Y'all are getting the Cowboy choked up. :'( :'( :'(
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I love this scene soooo much. It's beautiful the way they hold each other close ..... :'( :'(
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Absolutely one of MY favorites!!
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TPE: I'm sure Jack' s last thought this side of the grave was of Ennis. He never stopped loving him IMO.
Thank you, stacp. We share this belief. We who believe cherish it.
Thanks everyone for all this feeling. As Cowboy Cody has said, it gets me all choked up.
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I'm sure Jack' s last thought this side of the grave was of Ennis. He never stopped loving him IMO.
I don't think there's much doubt about that. Throughout the story there are so many times that we see Jack with a faraway look in his eyes, clearly thinking about Ennis. Even at the end of the confrontation he's still thinking about him and all that had passed between them. It's often said that when people are facing death, their lives flash before their eyes - in Jack's case, Ennis wasn't just the love of his life, he was his life and I'm sure it was Ennis's face he saw at the end.
:'(
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I love the scene when Ennis is on the side of the hill and Jack picks up his lassoo.
There is so much care, concern, love, desire in his face
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ennisjack.com%2Findex.php%3FPHPSESSID%3Dd256898e9195eee9508fde333e5b507a%26amp%3Baction%3Ddlattach%3Bid%3D629%3Btype%3Davatar&hash=c0df1d5941d17ee2707ea2331d51c1d8576ab129)
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I love the scene when Ennis is on the side of the hill and Jack picks up his lassoo.
There is so much care, concern, love, desire in his face
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ennisjack.com%2Findex.php%3FPHPSESSID%3Dd256898e9195eee9508fde333e5b507a%26amp%3Baction%3Ddlattach%3Bid%3D629%3Btype%3Davatar&hash=c0df1d5941d17ee2707ea2331d51c1d8576ab129)
The lasso. It is like Jack saying: 'You are mine forever.'
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I mentioned this in an earlier post, but had to post this pic of Jack, it shows how devastated he is by Ennis' rejection. But you can also see so much love in his eyes too....even after being hurt and devastated, he still loves Ennis' enough to say "see you next month then". That is a love that you just cant explain. :(
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi81.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj237%2Fchristiegwood%2FBrokeback%2520Mountain%2Fbbm1131.jpg&hash=0fae79514fce54129d806111737ac74265babff5)
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christie,
That is so true--Jack often thinks of or at least acknowledges Ennis's feelings before his own, even when he is feeling a lot of pain. The rapid transition here from joy to sobbing is so hard to watch, yet a great testament to the strength of his love. :'(
shieldmaid
p.s. Congrats on getting Jacked!!
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christie,
That is so true--Jack often thinks of or at least acknowledges Ennis's feelings before his own, even when he is feeling a lot of pain. The rapid transition here from joy to sobbing is so hard to watch, yet a great testament to the strength of his love. :'(
shieldmaid
p.s. Congrats on getting Jacked!!
Indeed Christie. Congratulations! The path to Ennis is through Jack. :)
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christie,
That is so true--Jack often thinks of or at least acknowledges Ennis's feelings before his own, even when he is feeling a lot of pain. The rapid transition here from joy to sobbing is so hard to watch, yet a great testament to the strength of his love. :'(
shieldmaid
p.s. Congrats on getting Jacked!!
Indeed Christie. Congratulations! The path to Ennis is through Jack. :)
Thanks shieldmaid, thanks tpe, for your congratulations. I'm just waiting to get Ennis'ed (is that the right term? don't look right).
You are right shieldmaid about Jack always putting Ennis' feelings before his own - and I think this is a perfect example. He's dying inside, and yet still wants to let Ennis know that he will see him again. :'(
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It seems like every time we see Ennis hurt Jack in some way, Jack still remembers how he loves Ennis. I'm thinking here particularly of the "dozy embrace" scene, when Jack thinks back on this "single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives" even as he is angry and disappointed with Ennis's inability to meet him in August. :(
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It seems like every time we see Ennis hurt Jack in some way, Jack still remembers how he loves Ennis. I'm thinking here particularly of the "dozy embrace" scene, when Jack thinks back on this "single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives" even as he is angry and disappointed with Ennis's inability to meet him in August. :(
Your description of this scene makes me wonder....had Jack not died, would he have been able to move on and quit Ennis? I think that memory, among others from that Summer, sustained Jack through the years. Not many of us in this day and age would spend that much time in a relationship filled with constant disappointment from the object of our love.
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It seems like every time we see Ennis hurt Jack in some way, Jack still remembers how he loves Ennis. I'm thinking here particularly of the "dozy embrace" scene, when Jack thinks back on this "single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives" even as he is angry and disappointed with Ennis's inability to meet him in August. :(
Your description of this scene makes me wonder....had Jack not died, would he have been able to move on and quit Ennis? I think that memory, among others from that Summer, sustained Jack through the years. Not many of us in this day and age would spend that much time in a relationship filled with constant disappointment from the object of our love.
City Slickin' Cowboy, this rings true.
I hold the personal belief that Jack could never have been able to quit Ennis. He would have tried. He would have failed.
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christie,
That is so true--Jack often thinks of or at least acknowledges Ennis's feelings before his own, even when he is feeling a lot of pain. The rapid transition here from joy to sobbing is so hard to watch, yet a great testament to the strength of his love. :'(
shieldmaid
p.s. Congrats on getting Jacked!!
I'm just Alma Jr'ed. Being "Jacked" sounds so much more appealing! Anyway, that divorce scene is one of the hardest for me to watch. Jack had just driven 14 hours to fulfull his dreams only to be crushed by Ennis. It's heart-breaking. The way Jack just sobs in that car; I have never seen a more realistic portrayl of hurt and longing on screen. I don't think Jack (or Ennis for that matter) could really separate themselves or lives apart from the other. Their whole lives were defined by those meetings and stolen moments. :'(
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I'm just Alma Jr'ed. Being "Jacked" sounds so much more appealing!
You'll getting there. ;)
Anyway, that divorce scene is one of the hardest for me to watch. Jack had just driven 14 hours to fulfull his dreams only to be crushed by Ennis. It's heart-breaking. The way Jack just sobs in that car; I have never seen a more realistic portrayl of hurt and longing on screen. I don't think Jack (or Ennis for that matter) could really separate themselves or lives apart from the other. Their whole lives were defined by those meetings and stolen moments. :'(
It's amazing how everything was based out of so little.
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The way Jack just sobs in that car; I have never seen a more realistic portrayl of hurt and longing on screen. I don't think Jack (or Ennis for that matter) could really separate themselves or lives apart from the other. Their whole lives were defined by those meetings and stolen moments.
The scene really does get me too..Jack was so happy to finally in his mind be able to be with Ennis and live and love together and then his heart is broken by Ennis rejection..it just breaks your heart. :'( :'(. You really feel his pain and sadness and its done beautifully.
I do agree that the shared only moments together that were rare and few between. But those moments were special and held close to there hearts..
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That one gets to everyone cause we have all been there, all jazzed about something and then knocked down.
part of us knows we shouldn't get that pumped up but we do and then SPLAT!
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That one gets to everyone cause we have all been there, all jazzed about something and then knocked down.
part of us knows we shouldn't get that pumped up but we do and then SPLAT!
SPLAT! is a good description for this...
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I love this scene soooo much. It's beautiful the way they hold each other close ..... :'( :'(
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.squashduck.com%2Fltd%2Fbbm%2Fimages%2Fimages%2FPDVD_085_jpg.jpg&hash=7ccf848a69a7c3d94756ae71e0b86a99bc63291d)
Beautiful indeed greenfrog. Have to say, though, this photo makes me sad too - this is just after Jack asks "what are we gonna do now?" and Ennis is realising that this perfect moment, lying in the arms of the only person he's ever truly loved, can't last forever. He looks so happy earlier in the scene (the little smile when he's saying "Me? I dunno") and then his brow wrinkles as Jack's words bring him back to reality - and the reality is that he's stuck in a hole of his own making, married to someone he could never love because he was too scared to own up to his feelings at the end of the summer on Brokeback. He looks like he's about to cry here - and the hopelessness in his voice when he answers Jack gets to me every time :'(
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Beautiful indeed greenfrog. Have to say, though, this photo makes me sad too - this is just after Jack asks "what are we gonna do now?" and Ennis is realising that this perfect moment, lying in the arms of the only person he's ever truly loved, can't last forever. He looks so happy earlier in the scene (the little smile when he's saying "Me? I dunno") and then his brow wrinkles as Jack's words bring him back to reality - and the reality is that he's stuck in a hole of his own making, married to someone he could never love because he was too scared to own up to his feelings at the end of the summer on Brokeback. He looks like he's about to cry here - and the hopelessness in his voice when he answers Jack gets to me every time :'(
God, NoReins, you say this "the hopelessness in his voice " and the hopelessness is right there in his eyes in that shot, too. Damn. :'( Do you WANT to make us cry???
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Hey, I'm just commenting - it's Heath's performance that makes me cry here. It's awesome how he manages to convey the despair both in his voice and his eyes (maybe even his whole face). The Oscars people should be hung, drawn and quartered - I don't care how good PSH was in Capote, the Oscar should have been Heath's.
Sorry....rant over.
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Beautiful indeed greenfrog. Have to say, though, this photo makes me sad too - this is just after Jack asks "what are we gonna do now?" and Ennis is realising that this perfect moment, lying in the arms of the only person he's ever truly loved, can't last forever. He looks so happy earlier in the scene (the little smile when he's saying "Me? I dunno") and then his brow wrinkles as Jack's words bring him back to reality - and the reality is that he's stuck in a hole of his own making, married to someone he could never love because he was too scared to own up to his feelings at the end of the summer on Brokeback. He looks like he's about to cry here - and the hopelessness in his voice when he answers Jack gets to me every time :'(
God, NoReins, you say this "the hopelessness in his voice " and the hopelessness is right there in his eyes in that shot, too. Damn. :'( Do you WANT to make us cry???
Too late :'( :'(. This is probably my favourite shot in which Heath shows he can match Jake in terms of showing the expression in his eyes - so much pain and need and disappointment in one look. If only Jack could have seen the expression as he told him 'i dunno', and realised Ennis was in a world of hurt over the hopelessness of their lives together at that point. I cry because i see it and understand - and Jack never does :'( :'(
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The Oscars people should be hung, drawn and quartered - I don't care how good PSH was in Capote, the Oscar should have been Heath's.
Sorry....rant over.
Tremendous applause!!!! And a big Hallelujah.
Now that we are in agreement ... :)
At the end of that heartbreaking moment, the fact that Jack doesn't continue to push, or do anything more than hold his lover close to share the burden of that hopelessness, without adding the burdens of his own dreams and desires, is another great example of Jack's love. Jack is just letting be, letting be, for that moment.
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What a deadly sequence of posts...
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I love the scene when Ennis is on the side of the hill and Jack picks up his lassoo.
There is so much care, concern, love, desire in his face
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ennisjack.com%2Findex.php%3FPHPSESSID%3Dd256898e9195eee9508fde333e5b507a%26amp%3Baction%3Ddlattach%3Bid%3D629%3Btype%3Davatar&hash=c0df1d5941d17ee2707ea2331d51c1d8576ab129)
Yes, you guess Frances ...a real desire of possession.. ;)
OT.: You have robbed my avatar!!! ;D ;D
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At the end of that heartbreaking moment, the fact that Jack doesn't continue to push, or do anything more than hold his lover close to share the burden of that hopelessness, without adding the burdens of his own dreams and desires, is another great example of Jack's love. Jack is just letting be, letting be, for that moment.
Oh my god, just reading those words has got me filled up! :'( Beautifully put MississaugaRed, I wouldn't have been able to find the right words to express how I felt about this scene, but you have summed it up perfectly. "to share the burden of that hopelessness"........oh god, you've gone and set me off now! :'( :'( :'(
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Shakespeare said it all:
Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds
Or bends with the remover to remove....
Love's not time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bendinf sickle's compass come;
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks
But bears it out even to the edge of doom.
And that's Jack's love for Ennis, inescapable, permanent, undeniable, inexpressible.
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I think that Jack is the kind of persons that need to express his feelings in order to feel good with himself unfortunately it was really difficult for him since Ennis totally the opposite unable to express his feelings, this situation obviously affected Jack from the begining when they were on their first days on Brokeback you notice a clear attraction from Jack towards Ennis and in the FNIT is more evident when Ennis woke up and he grabs his hair their lips are so close you see his breathing that was something he was expecting and hoping to happen. Jack loved Ennis and he found the way to show him that with his caress and his unfinished comments, knowing Ennis like he did he was aware that saying something about I love you or I am yours would be to queer for Ennis and that would mean the end of the relationship. But even though as he said he was not as strong as Ennis and he cheated Ennis with other men his eyes that were full of hope and happiness every time he was with Ennis showed us how he loved him. what upsets me is that some people called lust those 20 years and I tell you that was not lust when you have lust you go and do it with everyone that you like not with one person with whom you had a long relationship. it is true Jack had occasional sex but that doesn’t make us to judge him that he don’t love Ennis of course he do, that scene after the divorce broke my heart because Jack’s face was not happy was frustrated was destroyed he knew that what he was doing was not correct but still it was his own way to deal with it. I mentioned it before Mexico and Randall were his way to hide from reality, to hide himself the fact that Ennis Del Mar was not with him. Jack surely loved Ennis taking his shirts to remember him was more than enough I can tell you he needed something to remember Ennis and i can guarantee that he did exactly as Ennis did with the shirts he smelled them not only once but many times. Jack was not afraid to leave everything to pursue his life with Ennis and that is not love?
I know a man that was one of the most richest man here and he fell for a woman that was not from his economic class and no matter the threads from his family he left everything for her be cause he love her.
Jack loved Ennis and that is a fact whether he did some mistakes on the road of his love that is another story but he was meant for Ennis Annie told that in her story they were one The day they realized they were more than coworker’s their soul merged as one, they were one soul trapped in two bodies and no matter how much people want to argue (and i don’t mean any of you) they were truly in love, their love was more stronger by the years. Unfortunately Jack was hopeless at the end but his love still intact in his heart he lost the hopes but not his love Ennis was his happiness and his doom, that is the magic of this movie their happy moments were their doom because they couldn’t live with each other. I would never think that he would have go on with another one it is not in Jack’s nature he would have tried but “he just can wish how to quit him” because he was unable. Jack if he didn’t died may have tried to have a new life but his heart would have called upon him and remind him that he love Ennis, there’s only one true love and that one is forever.
When my mother died my father tried to get married again but he was never able years later i asked him when i was 19 and he told me the he was unable to quit my mother (yes he said quit) that he loved her and still loved her because they were soul mates. That what Ennis and Jack were soul mates and the love they share is more stronger and bigger than any other i have seeing (including the straight couples) no love would go beyond 20 years without saying I love you, the words for them were not necessary but it would have help them a lot but that is part of another thread
Carlos ...
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I think that Jack is the kind of persons that need to express his feelings in order to feel good with himself unfortunately it was really difficult for him since Ennis totally the opposite unable to express his feelings, this situation obviously affected Jack from the begining when they were on their first days on Brokeback you notice a clear attraction from Jack towards Ennis and in the FNIT is more evident when Ennis woke up and he grabs his hears their lips are so close you see his breathing that was something he was expecting and hoping to happen. Jack loved Ennis and he found the way to show him that with his caress and his unfinished comments, knowing Ennis like he did he was aware that saying something about I love you or I am yours would be to queer for Ennis and that would mean the end of the relationship. But even though as he said he was not as strong as Ennis and he cheated Ennis with other men his eyes that were full of hope and happiness every time he was with Ennis showed us how he loved him. what upsets me is that some people called lust those 20 years and I tell you that was not lust when you have lust you go and do it with everyone that you like not with one person with whom you had a long relationship. it is true Jack had occasional sex but that doesn’t make us to judge him that he don’t love Ennis of course he do, that scene after the divorce broke my heart because Jack’s face was not happy was frustrated was destroyed he knew that what he was doing was not correct but still it was his own way to deal with it. I mentioned it before Mexico and Randall were his way to hide from reality to hide himself the fact that Ennis Del Mar was not with him. Jack surely loved Ennis taking his shirts to remember him was more than enough I can tell you he needed something to remember Ennis and i can guarantee that he did exactly as Ennis did with the shirts he smelled them not only once but many times. Jack was not afraid to leave everything to pursue his life with Ennis and that is not love?
I know a man that was one of the most richest man here and he fell for a woman that was not from his economic class and no matter the threads from his family he left everything for her be cause he love her.
Jack loved Ennis and that is a fact whether he did some mistakes on the road of his love that is another story but he was mean for Ennis Annie told that in her story they were one The day they realized they were more than coworker’s their soul merged as one, they were one soul trapped in two bodies and no matter how much people want to argue (and i don’t mean any of you) they were truly in love, their love was more stronger by the years. Unfortunately Jack was hopeless at the end but his love still intact in his heart he lost the hopes but not his love Ennis was his happiness and his doom, that is the magic of this movie their happy moments were their doom because they couldn’t live with each other. I would never think that he would have go on with another one it is not in Jack’s nature he would have tried but “he just can wish how to quit him” because he was unable. Jack if he didn’t died may have tried to have a new life but his heart would have called upon him and remind him that he love Ennis, there’s only one true love and that one is forever.
When my mother died my father tried to get married again but he was never able years later i asked him when i was 19 and he told me the he was unable to quit my mother (yes he said quit) that he loved her and still lover her because they were soul mates. That what Ennis and Jack were soul mates and the love they share is more stronger and bigger than any other i have seeing (including the straight couples) no love would go beyond 20 years without saying I love you, the words for them were not necessary but it would have help them a lot but that is part of another thread
Carlos ...
Wow.
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Carlos, (https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbestsmileys.com%2Fkissing1%2F1.gif&hash=a445574c45dcd64053b09d31a4478d56db30d47d) ...on the cheek of course you wonderful straight guy.
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That what Ennis and Jack were soul mates and the love they share is more stronger and bigger than any other i have seeing (including the straight couples)
SOULMATES. Love this word and loved your beautiful and moving post so much.
Thanks, Carlos
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Oh Carlos you got me going again. :'(
That was beautiful!
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At the end of that heartbreaking moment, the fact that Jack doesn't continue to push, or do anything more than hold his lover close to share the burden of that hopelessness, without adding the burdens of his own dreams and desires, is another great example of Jack's love. Jack is just letting be, letting be, for that moment.
You know, I hadn't really though about that. Of course, in the story, the "sweet life" discussion happens in the motel so Jack does add to Ennis's burden - maybe now I'm beginning to understand why that section was moved to later. I know that Annie Proulx wanted the motel scene to remain intact but she was blown away when she saw the way it worked. Maybe it's totally right that the motel scene shows only the love between them, with none of the debate and pressure that comes later.
Too late . This is probably my favourite shot in which Heath shows he can match Jake in terms of showing the expression in his eyes - so much pain and need and disappointment in one look. If only Jack could have seen the expression as he told him 'i dunno', and realised Ennis was in a world of hurt over the hopelessness of their lives together at that point. I cry because i see it and understand - and Jack never does
I have a different take on this. I also wish that Jack could see Ennis's face when he says "I dunno" but that's because I see him smile slightly there and if Jack could see that, he would see confirmation that Ennis had been dreaming of this moment just as much as Jack had. It's only afterwards when Jack brings them back to the present that his face shows despair.
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I have a different take on this. I also wish that Jack could see Ennis's face when he says "I dunno" but that's because I see him smile slightly there and if Jack could see that, he would see confirmation that Ennis had been dreaming of this moment just as much as Jack had. It's only afterwards when Jack brings them back to the present that his face shows despair.
NoReins, there are indeed few times when Ennis smiles this way, and I have always paired that happy smile with this sad and wistful one:
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fun-decided.com%2Fgallery%2Fdata%2Fmedia%2F2%2Fbbm1675.jpg&hash=4ede531641761e67548f8369df15c9ab40bc0f76)
This comment of mine belongs more to the thread discussing Ennis's love for Jack.
But Jack's smiles in the same vein can also be appreciated.
One of the most beautiful is at the very beginning of the scenes on BBM, where Jack is up with the sheep at night, he sees Ennis's campfire done below...and smiles...
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You know, I hadn't really though about that. Of course, in the story, the "sweet life" discussion happens in the motel so Jack does add to Ennis's burden - maybe now I'm beginning to understand why that section was moved to later. I know that Annie Proulx wanted the motel scene to remain intact but she was blown away when she saw the way it worked. Maybe it's totally right that the motel scene shows only the love between them, with none of the debate and pressure that comes later.
So true, Lindsey, it's very right, for the reason's you've mentioned and I think maybe for others too.
One part of the SS motel scene I'm glad they left out of the film was the discussion they have about their sex lives over the prior 4 years. Ennis telling Jack he'd never felt sexually with a woman what he feels with Jack, asking Jack if he'd ever thought of doing it with another man, Jack saying "Sh*t, no!". Which, we know, would have been a lie.
And I can't see this film having the same impact on us if we go from this point KNOWING Jack was starting off their 16 year affair by outright lying to Ennis. Don't ask, don't tell, okay, you'd gone your separate ways for 4 years, married and had families, now you're admitting it's impossible to stay away from each other. But I think it would have altered our persception of their relationshiop and damaged the sympathy we have for both men if they started this with out and out lies spoken between them. That's how it seems to me, anyway. :-\
We can hurt for Jack, understand him, forgive him for Mexico and the rest after we've seen what he's been through for and because of Ennis for so many years. Jack may refain from speaking of parts of his life away from Ennis, admit to an affair while changing the 'he" to "she", but in the end, when Ennis point blank asks him if he's been to Mexico, he doesn't lie to him. He avoids speaking full truth to Ennis because he knows he can't handle it, but when asked direct he will show his love and respect by not speaking lies. Another way Jack shows his love, even if it's not a "pretty" way.
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You know, I hadn't really though about that. Of course, in the story, the "sweet life" discussion happens in the motel so Jack does add to Ennis's burden - maybe now I'm beginning to understand why that section was moved to later. I know that Annie Proulx wanted the motel scene to remain intact but she was blown away when she saw the way it worked. Maybe it's totally right that the motel scene shows only the love between them, with none of the debate and pressure that comes later.
So true, Lindsey, it's very right, for the reason's you've mentioned and I think maybe for others too.
One part of the SS motel scene I'm glad they left out of the film was the discussion they have about their sex lives over the prior 4 years. Ennis telling Jack he'd never felt sexually with a woman what he feels with Jack, asking Jack if he'd ever thought of doing it with another man, Jack saying "Sh*t, no!". Which, we know, would have been a lie.
And I can't see this film having the same impact on us if we go from this point KNOWING Jack was starting off their 16 year affair by outright lying to Ennis. Don't ask, don't tell, okay, you'd gone your separate ways for 4 years, married and had families, now you're admitting it's impossible to stay away from each other. But I think it would have altered our persception of their relationshiop and damaged the sympathy we have for both men if they started this with out and out lies spoken between them. That's how it seems to me, anyway. :-\
We can hurt for Jack, understand him, forgive him for Mexico and the rest after we've seen what he's been through for and becasue of Ennis for so many years. Jack may refain from speaking of parts of his life away from Ennis, admit to an affair while changing the 'he" to "she", but in the end, when Ennis point blank asks him if he's been to Mexico, he doesn't lie to him. He avoids speaking full truth to Ennis because he knows he can't handle it, but when asked direct he will show his love and respect by not speaking lies. Another way Jack shows his love, even if it's not a "pretty" way.
Exquisite.
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[One part of the SS motel scene I'm glad they left out of the film was the discussion they have about their sex lives over the prior 4 years. Ennis telling Jack he'd never felt sexually with a woman what he feels with Jack, asking Jack if he'd ever thought of doing it with another man, Jack saying "Sh*t, no!". Which, we know, would have been a lie.
Hmmm. I think Ennis actually asked him "You ever do it with other guys, Jack?" rather than whether he ever thought about it. In terms of the story, we'd have known Jack was lying because of the next line (...who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own) but in terms of the movie, we'd have be none the wiser, since we have seen Jack try to get off with Jimbo, but failing.
I'm undecided about the sex discussion. On the one hand, I think it's nice that we see it at a romantic level, arms round each other, talking intimately. But some of the things that are said in that discussion make Ennis seem so much more open and really show his feelings for Jack. In particular, I'm thinking about the bit where he tells Jack about the gut cramps - hinting that if he'd realised sooner what he was feeling then things might have been different. Ah, I dunno...
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I'm undecided about the sex discussion. On the one hand, I think it's nice that we see it at a romantic level, arms round each other, talking intimately. But some of the things that are said in that discussion make Ennis seem so much more open and really show his feelings for Jack.
Thanks for clarifying the wording there, don't have my SP handy, memory ain't what it was in my daddy's day. ;)
This is a connundrum, for sure, huh?
I honestly try not to compare the SS to the SP or film too much, since we all agree they are each masterpieces in their own right, and have maybe slightly different slants, whatever; although using bits and pieces from one to clarify the other works often. Plus, notice how I mess up the words if I don't have my cheat sheet, lol. ;D I love each incarnatin for it's own unique vision (granting all praise to Annie for creating the original form from which all Brokeback goodness stems!).
I admit that the vision I most strongly gravitate to is the film, and most of my attention goes to it for that reason, I think. So regarding this motel sex discussion, "Film" Ennis seems to be even more repressed than "SS" Ennis (who would have believed it possible!!), at least verbally, so I guess I find it hard to imagine him putting into words the physicality of his relationship with Jack.(??) Since he keeps referring to it as "thing" or "this thing" and all. Much as we'd like to hear them both give voice to their feelings more freely, darn it ...
I actually love how because they are given fewer words in places they instead have to speak with their eyes, touches, bodie, actions - and that we get to "feel" their emotions with them this way. :) SNIT being just one very fine example of that tradeoff. ;)
In particular, I'm thinking about the bit where he tells Jack about the gut cramps - hinting that if he'd realised sooner what he was feeling then things might have been different. Ah, I dunno...
Yeah, it would have been sweet if Ennis had admitted that to Jack, wouldn't it? I think Jack would have been stunned to know Ennis had felt so strongly all those years back ... although then he might have really started thinking about all the lost time, the what if's ...
Ah, I dunno, either, I guess. :-\
Maybe virtually ignoring those lost four years, summing them up with few words, was a way both men could show their love to the other. They hadn't been together, so those times have no place in the relationship they were going to build going forward.
Now I'm just confusing myself ... :) not hard to do!
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:o I am so impressed..the love that Jack felt for Ennis was shown so many times...the tenderness, the smiles just everything..and I agree that after 20 years he couldn't just quit him..it would mean walking away..and I don't think he could really do that..
That ending scene really gets me every time..
At the end of that heartbreaking moment, the fact that Jack doesn't continue to push, or do anything more than hold his lover close to share the burden of that hopelessness, without adding the burdens of his own dreams and desires, is another great example of Jack's love. Jack is just letting be, letting be, for that moment.
I agree he was letting me, and wanting to hold this one moment close to his heart..when I was watching the movie I noticed that that last night in the tent they were holding each other..it was a peaceful moment, the world was quite and resting..it was a sweet moment..the with the argument the next day...and the end with Ennis and Jack holding on to each other the flashback scene..its so heartbreaking..and shows that love survived the test of time..with the heart ache and sadness..it survived 20 years..
thats my ramblings for now :-X
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At the end of that heartbreaking moment, the fact that Jack doesn't continue to push, or do anything more than hold his lover close to share the burden of that hopelessness, without adding the burdens of his own dreams and desires, is another great example of Jack's love. Jack is just letting be, letting be, for that moment.
You know, I hadn't really though about that. Of course, in the story, the "sweet life" discussion happens in the motel so Jack does add to Ennis's burden - maybe now I'm beginning to understand why that section was moved to later. I know that Annie Proulx wanted the motel scene to remain intact but she was blown away when she saw the way it worked. Maybe it's totally right that the motel scene shows only the love between them, with none of the debate and pressure that comes later.
Too late . This is probably my favourite shot in which Heath shows he can match Jake in terms of showing the expression in his eyes - so much pain and need and disappointment in one look. If only Jack could have seen the expression as he told him 'i dunno', and realised Ennis was in a world of hurt over the hopelessness of their lives together at that point. I cry because i see it and understand - and Jack never does
I have a different take on this. I also wish that Jack could see Ennis's face when he says "I dunno" but that's because I see him smile slightly there and if Jack could see that, he would see confirmation that Ennis had been dreaming of this moment just as much as Jack had. It's only afterwards when Jack brings them back to the present that his face shows despair.
Yes, on reading what i posted i should have probably got what i meant clearer in my mind, but sometimes have habit of posting when i have let my emotion get the better of me!! You are right, what i meant to say was i wish Jack could have seen the expression on Ennis' face throughout the time they were talking then he would have realised how much he meant to him, how much he had dreamed of the moment they could be reunited. Got a bit fixated on the screencap that was posted :-[
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Jack will never love anyone as much as he loved Ennis. :\'(
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And I doubt Ennis will ever love anyone as much as he loved Jack (even if he couldn't admit it).
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They were fated, even if they were star-crossed.
Jack's love for Ennis may not be always faithful. But Ennis was his fixed point. All roads lead to one terminus.
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If you look at the small things, gentle touches, and respect that Jack showed Ennis, even when it hurt himself, Jack's love could not be considered less than of great importance. Although he demonstrates kindness to all people, e'en those 'gainst 'im, he could only emotionally connect with Ennis. After Ennis fell down from the horse when he met the bear, Jack's expression was one of compassion and worry when he saw the injury on Ennis' right side of the face. He instantly takes off his bandanna, wets it and tries to apply on the wound. Later in the film, years later in the story, when he talks to Ennis by the river and tries to comfort him, Jack again strokes Ennis' cheek. These are just some examples of action which show that Jack held Ennis as more than a friend, more than a date, but rather as a true companion whose emotions he felt as his own.
I'm sorry if this has been said before, I had some free time to write a glimmer of my thoughts.
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but rather as a true companion whose emotions he felt as his own.
Beautiful post Rick. I especially loved the above line.
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If you look at the small things, gentle touches, and respect that Jack showed Ennis, even when it hurt himself, Jack's love could not be considered less than of great importance. Although he demonstrates kindness to all people, e'en those 'gainst 'im, he could only emotionally connect with Ennis. After Ennis fell down from the horse when he met the bear, Jack's expression was one of compassion and worry when he saw the injury on Ennis' right side of the face. He instantly takes off his bandanna, wets it and tries to apply on the wound. Later in the film, years later in the story, when he talks to Ennis by the river and tries to comfort him, Jack again strokes Ennis' cheek. These are just some examples of action which show that Jack held Ennis as more than a friend, more than a date, but rather as a true companion whose emotions he felt as his own.
I'm sorry if this has been said before, I had some free time to write a glimmer of my thoughts.
I echo LJN here: thanks rick65 for this beautiful post.
There is something I have observed while reading your post: Jack always made it a point to touch Ennis -- make the connection physical. Even in the motel scene, that most intimate of scenes, he reinforces the connection by the embrace with his arm.
This is so Jack. He makes love with his hands.
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Probablyt OT but I think that shows that JG has been in love or watched those who are - it's what you do when you're in love with someone and with them - you can hardly believe they're real, so you touch them, you want to feel close to them so you touch them, you want to show how aware of them you are so you touch them - dozens of reasons for doing this if you're a demonstrative person, and sometimes if you're not loves makes you one.
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Probablyt OT but I think that shows that JG has been in love or watched those who are - it's what you do when you're in love with someone and with them - you can hardly believe they're real, so you touch them, you want to feel close to them so you touch them, you want to show how aware of them you are so you touch them - dozens of reasons for doing this if you're a demonstrative person, and sometimes if you're not loves makes you one.
A wonderful point, welshwitch. When in love, there is that feeling that you have to touch in order to believe.
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Hi everybody. Been gone for awhile dealing with some famly issues and the recent loss of my dad. But i'mglad to see that BBM mania is still running wild! Wow, Jack's love for Ennis. What more can be said? This is a love that truly never grows old. The many ways in which Jack expressed his love is endless,patient,solid and is to admired.
After four f...ckin long years it was STILL there. It was Jack who finally akknowledged this and sent the postcard, much to Ennis delight as he was definitly stuck in nuetral with Alma. Out of this love Jack took a major gamble that Ennis would still feel something and boy did it pay off. I mostly identify with Ennis, but if I had his choice I'd have chosen Jack Twist to love too.Definitly!
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OOT: I am sorry, aintfoolin , to hear about your loss.
Yes, I have no difficulty empathizing on Ennis's love for Jack. That's because he has found in Jack a person who persisted in loving him, in spite of his own personal hesitations and self-doubts.
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Hi everybody. Been gone for awhile dealing with some famly issues and the recent loss of my dad. But i'mglad to see that BBM mania is still running wild! Wow, Jack's love for Ennis. What more can be said? This is a love that truly never grows old. The many ways in which Jack expressed his love is endless,patient,solid and is to admired.
After four f...ckin long years it was STILL there. It was Jack who finally akknowledged this and sent the postcard, much to Ennis delight as he was definitly stuck in nuetral with Alma. Out of this love Jack took a major gamble that Ennis would still feel something and boy did it pay off. I mostly identify with Ennis, but if I had his choice I'd have chosen Jack Twist to love too.Definitly!
You're right! Jack did acknowledge there was love there first. He may not have actually said it, but it was clear what was in Jack's heart when he first suggested he and Ennis get a place together. Jack was willing to give up everything from his current life to spend his remaining days with Ennis.
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Hi everybody. Been gone for awhile dealing with some famly issues and the recent loss of my dad.
aintfoolin, I am so sorry to hear of your recent loss. I hope you are well.
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Thanks P1 and Type for your condolences, I'm fine thanks.
Jack loved Ennis,and your right neither said it out loud, but through their actions, most of us felt the intense highs and lows of their love from the beginning to the sad tragic end. Jack was willing to lay it all on the line becuse of what he felt and knew ,although he had to have the patience of Job with Ennis, but I love him for that.
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Thanks P1 and Type for your condolences, I'm fine thanks.
Jack loved Ennis,and your right neither said it out loud, but through their actions, most of us felt the intense highs and lows of their love from the beginning to the sad tragic end. Jack was willing to lay it all on the line becuse of what he felt and knew ,although he had to have the patience of Job with Ennis, but I love him for that.
THis is exactly what I admire about Jack's love: it was demonstrative without being overbearing. The patience and self-effacing nature of that love compensates for all his failings many times over, IMO.
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Thanks P1 and Type for your condolences, I'm fine thanks.
Jack loved Ennis,and your right neither said it out loud, but through their actions, most of us felt the intense highs and lows of their love from the beginning to the sad tragic end. Jack was willing to lay it all on the line becuse of what he felt and knew ,although he had to have the patience of Job with Ennis, but I love him for that.
THis is exactly what I admire about Jack's love: it was demonstrative without being overbearing. The patience and self-effacing nature of that love compensates for all his failings many times over, IMO.
Ditto!! O0
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I'm undecided about the sex discussion. On the one hand, I think it's nice that we see it at a romantic level, arms round each other, talking intimately. But some of the things that are said in that discussion make Ennis seem so much more open and really show his feelings for Jack. In particular, I'm thinking about the bit where he tells Jack about the gut cramps - hinting that if he'd realised sooner what he was feeling then things might have been different. Ah, I dunno...
I think the point you are making here, No Reins, is valid and important. We don't hear Ennis declare any love for Jack, but we don't really see much of any of their time together. I think we have to take the characters as the author created them. She didn't create a cold Ennis, just a lonely, private, rather closed-mouth man. When he was with Jack, he was more open and might have actually expressed his love verbally. We just don't know. The point I'm trying to make is that I don't think we should keep the SS men and the film men separate. Ennis is Ennis and Jack is Jack, no matter where they appear and we have to take them as Annie painted them. All we can do, then, is speculate about what one might have said to another or done to, with and for the other. That's where the fun comes in. Since we don't really KNOW for sure, whatever we want to think is right for us.
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Thanks P1 and Type for your condolences, I'm fine thanks.
Jack loved Ennis,and your right neither said it out loud, but through their actions, most of us felt the intense highs and lows of their love from the beginning to the sad tragic end. Jack was willing to lay it all on the line becuse of what he felt and knew ,although he had to have the patience of Job with Ennis, but I love him for that.
THis is exactly what I admire about Jack's love: it was demonstrative without being overbearing. The patience and self-effacing nature of that love compensates for all his failings many times over, IMO.
Agreed ^f^
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I'm undecided about the sex discussion. On the one hand, I think it's nice that we see it at a romantic level, arms round each other, talking intimately. But some of the things that are said in that discussion make Ennis seem so much more open and really show his feelings for Jack. In particular, I'm thinking about the bit where he tells Jack about the gut cramps - hinting that if he'd realised sooner what he was feeling then things might have been different. Ah, I dunno...
I think the point you are making here, No Reins, is valid and important. We don't hear Ennis declare any love for Jack, but we don't really see much of any of their time together. I think we have to take the characters as the author created them. She didn't create a cold Ennis, just a lonely, private, rather closed-mouth man. When he was with Jack, he was more open and might have actually expressed his love verbally. We just don't know. The point I'm trying to make is that I don't think we should keep the SS men and the film men separate. Ennis is Ennis and Jack is Jack, no matter where they appear and we have to take them as Annie painted them. All we can do, then, is speculate about what one might have said to another or done to, with and for the other. That's where the fun comes in. Since we don't really KNOW for sure, whatever we want to think is right for us.
(Greenfrog, we both ended up here tonight.)
This is a wonderful subject, and a lot of insightful posts. Jack is such a beautiful man, and if this beautiful-hearted person loved Ennis, then Ennis is worthy of that love, even though he had his fears that kept him from giving Jack what he wanted.
I like what you said, lamusica -- since we were given rather less than more, there is so much we get to fill in ourselves.
kathy
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I think the point you are making here, No Reins, is valid and important. We don't hear Ennis declare any love for Jack, but we don't really see much of any of their time together. I think we have to take the characters as the author created them. She didn't create a cold Ennis, just a lonely, private, rather closed-mouth man. When he was with Jack, he was more open and might have actually expressed his love verbally. We just don't know. The point I'm trying to make is that I don't think we should keep the SS men and the film men separate. Ennis is Ennis and Jack is Jack, no matter where they appear and we have to take them as Annie painted them. All we can do, then, is speculate about what one might have said to another or done to, with and for the other. That's where the fun comes in. Since we don't really KNOW for sure, whatever we want to think is right for us.
Although I do think that there are subtle but significant differences between the characters in the ss and the film, I do tend to agree with you that we should not overstress the differences. In the case of Jack's love, I got the feeling that the film was much more demonstartive and emphatic, although this may be just because of the impact of cinema as contrasted with the more internalized effect of the ss.
AS for the lacunae, I agree that we can use our imagination to fill in what must have been and what could have been.
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Though this be blasphemy, I'm going to say it anyway. Looking at this pic of Jack with Randall, I can see how Jack could find some fulfillment and comfort with him. Jack "needs" this, and Ennis doesn't seem to (wranging it out thinking about Jack good enough for him, under the circumstances -- those being his fears that keep him from living with Jack). Randall is a nice guy, and a good looking big bear of a man, and I can see how Jack could be drawn to him. I actually feel sorry for Randall, because Jack's heart belongs to Ennis. I wonder what Jack has told Randall about Ennis?
kathy
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I doubt Jack said much (if anything) about Ennis to Randall.
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Though this be blasphemy, I'm going to say it anyway. Looking at this pic of Jack with Randall, I can see how Jack could find some fulfillment and comfort with him. Jack "needs" this, and Ennis doesn't seem to (wranging it out thinking about Jack good enough for him, under the circumstances -- those being his fears that keep him from living with Jack). Randall is a nice guy, and a good looking big bear of a man, and I can see how Jack could be drawn to him. I actually feel sorry for Randall, because Jack's heart belongs to Ennis. I wonder what Jack has told Randall about Ennis?
kathy
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Honestly, my current thoughts about Randall is that he did probably love Jack. If he is indeed willing to share a life with Jack, then that is a tantalizing demonstration of commitment and risk-taking. I have been wondering if he and Ennis shared any similarities that attracted Jack, but Randall remains a shadowy figure, and it is hard do this particular topic justice.
I tend to believe at the moment that Randall and Jack did share something special. Would he replace Ennis is Jack's affections? I honestly don't know. But I do suspect that up until his death, Jack loved Ennis above all things, and his giving up his dream is at least partly an expression of spiritual and emotional self-immolation. He loved Ennis enough to do this, and Randall would never be enough to bring back to life what had died in Jack's heart.
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Honestly, my current thoughts about Randall is that he did probably love Jack. If he is indeed willing to share a life with Jack, then that is a tantalizing demonstration of commitment and risk-taking. I have been wondering if he and Ennis shared any similarities that attracted Jack, but Randall remains a shadowy figure, and it is hard do this particular topic justice.
I tend to believe at the moment that Randall and Jack did share something special. Would he replace Ennis is Jack's affections? I honestly don't know. But I do suspect that up until his death, Jack loved Ennis above all things, and his giving up his dream is at least partly an expression of spiritual and emotional self-immolation. He loved Ennis enough to do this, and Randall would never be enough to bring back to life what had died in Jack's heart.
Actually, when I wrote that post, I was not thinking at all of Jack's father's comment to Ennis about Jack bringing up that rancher fellow instead of Ennis. There is so much speculation on that thread that I haven't really come to a hard and fast conclusion about it. I'm thinking more like Jack just mentioning this other guy to his dad, but not that it was ever a serious possibility with Randall, or even that Jack said anything about it to Randall. Like he never said anything about it to Ennis.
So my point is, I was thinking of Jack with Randall only as a temporary, current, local, mutually beneficial relationship, that Jack's feelings were so strongly still for Ennis. I mean, he was apparently with Randall before the ultimate limit of his frustrations with Ennis came to be.
kathy
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But would have Jack considered Randall as temporary? I wonder. I believe that Jack never gave up his love for Ennis. But I believe that he had given up hope of living with him. Something inside me wants to believe that he will continue to see Ennis. And who knows what the future would bring to their love? But at the time of his death, I cannot discount the possibility that Jack intended not to see Ennis again, and try to build something permanent with Randall.
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But would have Jack considered Randall as temporary? I wonder. I believe that Jack never gave up his love for Ennis. But I believe that he had given up hope of living with him. Something inside me wants to believe that he will continue to see Ennis. And who knows what the future would bring to their love? But at the time of his death, I cannot discount the possibility that Jack intended not to see Ennis again, and try to build something permanent with Randall.
You also have to factor in the revelation that Ennis supposedly had during that fight on their last meeting. According to Diana Ossana, after that last meeting Ennis realized that Jack was the love of his life.
Diana Ossana: Cassie somewhat exemplifies Ennis’s continual denial of his emotional makeup, and his attempts to have what he believed was a “normal” relationship with a woman. After his and Jack’s final confrontation about Mexico, Ennis realizes that it is Jack he truly loves, and he simply cannot continue in his attempts at a relationship with Cassie, thus her confronting him in the diner about his whereabouts and her frustrations and painful realization that she’s not “the one.”
With the mindset that Jack was going to still meet up with Ennis in November, do you think anything would have been different? Would Ennis really have done anything differently even after accepting that Jack is "the one"? I like to think yes but I really can't say for sure. Ennis was so crippled by his fear that I'm not even sure his accepting Jack as "the one" would push him to attempting to make anything different. All part of the tragedy, I suppose. :\'(
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If Ennis was ready to finally call it quits on trying to have a "normal" relationship, he was in the process of change. Life is change and growth -- Ennis wasn't totally some stuck old mule who always refused to budge. He did take baby steps. I like to think after the "confrontation," he was ready to make a change. We didn't see what happened after their argument and before Ennis drove away, but hopefully there was some expression of love. And/or maybe an ultimatum from Jack. So maybe Ennis was looking forward to November, to a new phase for them, ready to tell Jack he wanted to try to be together in the way Jack wanted.
This is what I like to think anyway. Maybe wishful thinking, but...
As to Jack and Randall being temporary, tpe, by temporary I meant that they're both married, right? It's not like a committed relationship or anything.
kathy
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If Ennis was ready to finally call it quits on trying to have a "normal" relationship, he was in the process of change. Life is change and growth -- Ennis wasn't totally some stuck old mule who always refused to budge. He did take baby steps. I like to think after the "confrontation," he was ready to make a change. We didn't see what happened after their argument and before Ennis drove away, but hopefully there was some expression of love. And/or maybe an ultimatum from Jack. So maybe Ennis was looking forward to November, to a new phase for them, ready to tell Jack he wanted to try to be together in the way Jack wanted.
This is what I like to think anyway. Maybe wishful thinking, but...
As to Jack and Randall being temporary, tpe, by temporary I meant that they're both married, right? It's not like a committed relationship or anything.
kathy
I do think that Ennis was definitely looking forward to November. What would have been said during this trip is anyone's guess. I do believe that Jack would have come and he never would have been able to quit Ennis. I guess it is one big circle because if Ennis were to step up and finally live with Jack, I start wonder if Jack would have questioned his sincerity, especially if he was considering living with Randall and fixing up his father's ranch.
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I can definitely see Randall as "temporary," despite the words Jack may have told his father, despite the words John Sr. throws at Ennis when he visits after the heartbreaking news. By "temporary" I mean "substitute". Jack, IMO, had Randall as a substitute, while Randall may also have had Jack as a substitute, or filling-in. Since we really have no idea about Randall's intentions, all this is speculation on my part.
AP may have said, "There was some open space..." but the crux of this story is that the "Truth," the true love I mean, belonged to Jack and Ennis, anything else just wasn't complete, but simply a crutch on which to lean on while one waited for the other to be there.
Jack tried desperately to feel like he felt with Ennis, but he knew it wasn't anywhere else.
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I can definitely see Randall as "temporary," despite the words Jack may have told his father, despite the words John Sr. throws at Ennis when he visits after the heartbreaking news. By "temporary" I mean "substitute". Jack, IMO, had Randall as a substitute, while Randall may also have had Jack as a substitute, or filling-in. Since we really have no idea about Randall's intentions, all this is speculation on my part.
AP may have said, "There was some open space..." but the crux of this story is that the "Truth," the true love I mean, belonged to Jack and Ennis, anything else just wasn't complete, but simply a crutch on which to lean on while one waited for the other to be there.
Jack tried desperately to feel like he felt with Ennis, but he knew it wasn't anywhere else.
Substitue. Great word! I think where I get hung up with is how bitter Jack had become by the end. His hopes were crushed every single trip and worst of all after Ennis's divorce. In the end, I always come to the same place, if Ennis and Jack had met in November and Ennis finally let himself be with Jack completely outside of the mountains, Jack would accept him. The inner psychologist in me always springs up new ideas on me, though %&)
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I think you are right. Despite Jack's bitterness, he would have welcomed a chance for a life with Ennis whenever Ennis was ready.
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But would have Jack considered Randall as temporary? I wonder. I believe that Jack never gave up his love for Ennis. But I believe that he had given up hope of living with him. Something inside me wants to believe that he will continue to see Ennis. And who knows what the future would bring to their love? But at the time of his death, I cannot discount the possibility that Jack intended not to see Ennis again, and try to build something permanent with Randall.
:\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
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But would have Jack considered Randall as temporary? I wonder. I believe that Jack never gave up his love for Ennis. But I believe that he had given up hope of living with him. Something inside me wants to believe that he will continue to see Ennis. And who knows what the future would bring to their love? But at the time of his death, I cannot discount the possibility that Jack intended not to see Ennis again, and try to build something permanent with Randall.
You also have to factor in the revelation that Ennis supposedly had during that fight on their last meeting. According to Diana Ossana, after that last meeting Ennis realized that Jack was the love of his life.
Diana Ossana: Cassie somewhat exemplifies Ennis’s continual denial of his emotional makeup, and his attempts to have what he believed was a “normal” relationship with a woman. After his and Jack’s final confrontation about Mexico, Ennis realizes that it is Jack he truly loves, and he simply cannot continue in his attempts at a relationship with Cassie, thus her confronting him in the diner about his whereabouts and her frustrations and painful realization that she’s not “the one.”
With the mindset that Jack was going to still meet up with Ennis in November, do you think anything would have been different? Would Ennis really have done anything differently even after accepting that Jack is "the one"? I like to think yes but I really can't say for sure. Ennis was so crippled by his fear that I'm not even sure his accepting Jack as "the one" would push him to attempting to make anything different. All part of the tragedy, I suppose. :\'(
Thank you, carbyville, for the wonderful quote from DO. Like you, I am in limbo as to what Ennis might have done. I do think he finally realized that Jack was "the one", and his break-up with Cassie was a manifestation of this realization. Ennis will be faithful to Jack, but like you, I don't know if he will abide a life of love together.
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But would have Jack considered Randall as temporary? I wonder. I believe that Jack never gave up his love for Ennis. But I believe that he had given up hope of living with him. Something inside me wants to believe that he will continue to see Ennis. And who knows what the future would bring to their love? But at the time of his death, I cannot discount the possibility that Jack intended not to see Ennis again, and try to build something permanent with Randall.
I think that may well have been true in the immediate aftermath of their final argument, when Jack went to Lighting Flat (hence telling his dad about Randall), but once he'd had time to calm down he would've changed his mind, or at least not rushed into making any decisions at that point until he'd seen Ennis again in November (hence why Jack and Randall moving to Lightning Flat "never came to pass"). I can't believe that Jack would just break off all contact with Ennis and set up home with Randall without giving it one last try with Ennis, giving him an ultimatum "if you don't want to be with me, there's someone else who will".It's quite possible that Jack would think that even the threat of losing Jack for good might not be enough to make Ennis change his mind, but he still would've thought it was surely worth a try? I don't think Jack would have given up on Ennis without being 100% sure that there was nothing else he could do to try and convince him. And after 20 years, he wouldn't end it by just disappearing to Lightning Flat, or wherever, with Randall, he would have the decency to tell Ennis to his face it was over, and the reasons why. If Ennis had still refused, then yes, maybe Jack would've accepted that a life with Randall was better than nothing, but I firmly believe he would've told Ennis about it first, in the hope Ennis would talk him out of it.
Maybe it's my wishful thinking, but the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the threat of losing Jack to Randall would have been enough to persuade Ennis. He seems to accept that it's pointless him trying to have a relationship with anyone else, by dumping Cassie (and I think that has less to do with Cassie being a woman than with her not being Jack), and he also can't handle the thought of Jack having affairs,casual sex or whatever you want to call it, with other men. For all that Ennis effectively sweeps it under the carpet, there's no way he could just forget about it and he also would've figured out that the ranch foreman's wife was actually the ranch foreman, and he would've had months between the argument and November to think about Jack, wondering what he was doing,and who with, the jealousy would've been unbearable...I think that's why Ennis sends the postcard,now that he knows Jack has other options,he feels vulnerable and he needs reassurance that he's still Jack's number one, so to speak. Of course, it's only with Jack's death that Ennis finally realises what he's lost, and regrets not taking the chance he had of sharing his life with Jack, but if Jack had lived, maybe the threat of losing him to Randall would have had the same effect, but while there was still time for a happier outcome ??? *sigh* All these "if only"'s... :\'( :\'( :\'(
Just noticed that on the "last post" thing on the main page, it looks like it says "Jack's love for...CrimsonSky" Hehehe <^( ;) ;D
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One of the things that worries me about "what happened after?" questions is that in the final confrontation they both said things they'd kept to themsleves for a long time. Each knew more about the other than they'd ever done. After something like that it may be possible to start again, but one would feel differntly about the other person. more in Ennis's case, when Jack admits to going to Mexico and implies that Ennis shouldn't object; he also tells Jack that he blames him for what he, Ennis, has become. It wouldn;t take much for him to work out that in talking about the ranch foreman's wife Jack has told another lie. While they might meet again, could theoretically settle down together, all these things will be there in the background and must surely affect them both. Do you forgive over and over again? Probably, if you love someone enough, but whethr you trust them totally again is another question.
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One of the things that worries me about "what happened after?" questions is that in the final confrontation they both said things they'd kept to themsleves for a long time. Each knew more about the other than they'd ever done. After something like that it may be possible to start again, but one would feel differntly about the other person. more in Ennis's case, when Jack admits to going to Mexico and implies that Ennis shouldn't object; he also tells Jack that he blames him for what he, Ennis, has become. It wouldn;t take much for him to work out that in talking about the ranch foreman's wife Jack has told another lie. While they might meet again, could theoretically settle down together, all these things will be there in the background and must surely affect them both. Do you forgive over and over again? Probably, if you love someone enough, but whethr you trust them totally again is another question.
Very good point. I don't see that being much of an obstacle, though. Ennis could have easily just left things in Jack's hands and never wrote the postcard asking him about Pine Creek in November, but he did. He wanted to continue the relationship and maybe (all speculation of course) wanted to talk things out with Jack more extensively as opposed to yelling and saying things out of anger and frustration. The air will have to be cleared before anything else is pursued, though, no doubt about it.
Ennis might have a little trouble getting over what he learned about Jack, but I don't think it'd have any more negative effect on them than the past 20 years have, already. The damage has already been done and November should have been about starting new with the possibility of growth and change on Ennis's part and the long overdue fulfillment of life on Jack's.
But then again, I'm always striving to be the optimist. :-\\
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Well, I'm an optimist, too. I don't think anything new was revealed in the scene where they last met and had the argument. Ennis already knew that Jack went to Mexico and what that meant. They both knew everything that the other one shouted out in anger. I don't see any new revelations. Consequently, I think this argument was not something that would keep them apart. I believe both men assumed they would see each other in November, just as always. Ennis just wrote the postcard for clarification of the date.
When two people are an close as those two, they know each other pretty well. There are few secrets. Arguments, though, do occur, but they, too, are soon put aside. Making up is such fun! I do believe they would have made up in November. However, Jack wanted more and got involved with Randall. I don't for one minute think Randall took Ennis' place. He was merely convenient. I don't believe there was any love between Jack and Randall --- just sex - convenient sex -- while Jack was apart from Ennis. Just MHO.
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Well, I'm an optimist, too. I don't think anything new was revealed in the scene where they last met and had the argument. Ennis already knew that Jack went to Mexico and what that meant. They both knew everything that the other one shouted out in anger. I don't see any new revelations. Consequently, I think this argument was not something that would keep them apart. I believe both men assumed they would see each other in November, just as always. Ennis just wrote the postcard for clarification of the date.
When two people are an close as those two, they know each other pretty well. There are few secrets. Arguments, though, do occur, but they, too, are soon put aside. Making up is such fun! I do believe they would have made up in November. However, Jack wanted more and got involved with Randall. I don't for one minute think Randall took Ennis' place. He was merely convenient. I don't believe there was any love between Jack and Randall --- just sex - convenient sex -- while Jack was apart from Ennis. Just MHO.
Good point -- that this was nothing new between them. But I think maybe it hadn't been expressed like that before. I think Jack's frustration had reached the breaking point. Yes, I do believe they would have made up; but I don't think that this was anything like a repeat of some old stuff they'd already fought about. In that sense, it was "new," because hurling all that at each other, and then Ennis's breaking down like he did, was more intense than that bickering we saw in earlier scenes of their later fishing trips.
And, I think Randall was a little more than sex -- some kind of compatible companionship. Going to that cabin Randall mentioned. Being able to be themselves, when in both of their lives they played a role in public and with family. They probably had a "nice" time together, and some warm or maybe even hot sex, but it wasn't love with a capital L.
kathy
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But would have Jack considered Randall as temporary? I wonder. I believe that Jack never gave up his love for Ennis. But I believe that he had given up hope of living with him. Something inside me wants to believe that he will continue to see Ennis. And who knows what the future would bring to their love? But at the time of his death, I cannot discount the possibility that Jack intended not to see Ennis again, and try to build something permanent with Randall.
I think that may well have been true in the immediate aftermath of their final argument, when Jack went to Lighting Flat (hence telling his dad about Randall), but once he'd had time to calm down he would've changed his mind, or at least not rushed into making any decisions at that point until he'd seen Ennis again in November (hence why Jack and Randall moving to Lightning Flat "never came to pass"). I can't believe that Jack would just break off all contact with Ennis and set up home with Randall without giving it one last try with Ennis, giving him an ultimatum "if you don't want to be with me, there's someone else who will".It's quite possible that Jack would think that even the threat of losing Jack for good might not be enough to make Ennis change his mind, but he still would've thought it was surely worth a try? I don't think Jack would have given up on Ennis without being 100% sure that there was nothing else he could do to try and convince him. And after 20 years, he wouldn't end it by just disappearing to Lightning Flat, or wherever, with Randall, he would have the decency to tell Ennis to his face it was over, and the reasons why. If Ennis had still refused, then yes, maybe Jack would've accepted that a life with Randall was better than nothing, but I firmly believe he would've told Ennis about it first, in the hope Ennis would talk him out of it.
Maybe it's my wishful thinking, but the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the threat of losing Jack to Randall would have been enough to persuade Ennis. He seems to accept that it's pointless him trying to have a relationship with anyone else, by dumping Cassie (and I think that has less to do with Cassie being a woman than with her not being Jack), and he also can't handle the thought of Jack having affairs,casual sex or whatever you want to call it, with other men. For all that Ennis effectively sweeps it under the carpet, there's no way he could just forget about it and he also would've figured out that the ranch foreman's wife was actually the ranch foreman, and he would've had months between the argument and November to think about Jack, wondering what he was doing,and who with, the jealousy would've been unbearable...I think that's why Ennis sends the postcard,now that he knows Jack has other options,he feels vulnerable and he needs reassurance that he's still Jack's number one, so to speak. Of course, it's only with Jack's death that Ennis finally realises what he's lost, and regrets not taking the chance he had of sharing his life with Jack, but if Jack had lived, maybe the threat of losing him to Randall would have had the same effect, but while there was still time for a happier outcome ??? *sigh* All these "if only"'s... :\'( :\'( :\'(
Just noticed that on the "last post" thing on the main page, it looks like it says "Jack's love for...CrimsonSky" Hehehe <^( ;) ;D
Well said, CrimsonSky. I also can't discount the possibility that Jack was giving Ennis an ultimatum in the guise of Randall...
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Well, I'm an optimist, too. I don't think anything new was revealed in the scene where they last met and had the argument. Ennis already knew that Jack went to Mexico and what that meant. They both knew everything that the other one shouted out in anger. I don't see any new revelations. Consequently, I think this argument was not something that would keep them apart. I believe both men assumed they would see each other in November, just as always. Ennis just wrote the postcard for clarification of the date.
When two people are an close as those two, they know each other pretty well. There are few secrets. Arguments, though, do occur, but they, too, are soon put aside. Making up is such fun! I do believe they would have made up in November. However, Jack wanted more and got involved with Randall. I don't for one minute think Randall took Ennis' place. He was merely convenient. I don't believe there was any love between Jack and Randall --- just sex - convenient sex -- while Jack was apart from Ennis. Just MHO.
Good point -- that this was nothing new between them. But I think maybe it hadn't been expressed like that before. I think Jack's frustration had reached the breaking point. Yes, I do believe they would have made up; but I don't think that this was anything like a repeat of some old stuff they'd already fought about. In that sense, it was "new," because hurling all that at each other, and then Ennis's breaking down like he did, was more intense than that bickering we saw in earlier scenes of their later fishing trips.
And, I think Randall was a little more than sex -- some kind of compatible companionship. Going to that cabin Randall mentioned. Being able to be themselves, when in both of their lives they played a role in public and with family. They probably had a "nice" time together, and some warm or maybe even hot sex, but it wasn't love with a capital L.
kathy
I do agree that they were able to torque things back to almost where they were during the last meeting. But I suspect that if Jack had a nerw resolve to break things of or test Ennis it must have occured after the last meeting. And I think it could be precisely the fact that things remained unchanged (after 20 years) that finally pushed Jack over the edge.
Personally, I do believe that Randall became more than just sex. Jack wanted to share a life together with him. The only other person he asked to do this with him was Ennis.
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I do agree that they were able to torque things back to almost where they were during the last meeting. But I suspect that if Jack had a nerw resolve to break things of or test Ennis it must have occured after the last meeting. And I think it could be precisely the fact that things remained unchanged (after 20 years) that finally pushed Jack over the edge.
Personally, I do believe that Randall became more than just sex. Jack wanted to share a life together with him. The only other person he asked to do this with him was Ennis.
Do those of you who think Jack had a more "serious" thing with Randall base that mostly on what Jack apparently said to his father, that his father said to Ennis? If not for just that statement, I otherwise wouldn't have given the idea of Jack wanting a "life" with Randall very much thought at all. Is there more in the SS or SP about him? I guess I don't love thinking about Jack having yet totally given up on Ennis...
kathy
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Personally, I do believe that Randall became more than just sex. Jack wanted to share a life together with him. The only other person he asked to do this with him was Ennis.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't know that it was Jack who asked Randall, do we? I can't watch any of the scenes from their last night onwards on their own, only when I'm watching the whole film (not sure why, it just doesn't feel right watching any of it out of context :-\\ ) so my memory of the scene where Jack's dad talks about Jack and Randall moving to LF is a bit sketchy, but I'm sure he says something like "he's got some other guy..." not "he asked some other guy..." or "he wanted some other guy..." ??? I've always felt that it was Randall's idea for him and Jack to move somewhere together, after all, it was Randall who made the first move on Jack in the first place, ok Jack did nothing to discourage him, but it's pretty clear (imo) that Randall was more into Jack than vice-versa. I'm not saying it didn't become more than just sex at some point,I'm sure Jack must have grown to have some sort of affection for him, but I can't see it being much more than just affection, because emotionally he didn't have anything more to give Randall,any love he had to give was for Ennis, so I don't think sharing the rest of his life with Randall would've occured to Jack, because that place in his dream was reserved for Ennis.
Randall, on the other hand (unless he had an "Ennis" himself, but assuming he didn't), could have easily fallen in love with Jack (well, haven't we all? ;) ) and had the same idyllic fantasy about him and Jack living together. Jack could've talked to him about his parents' ranch,(presumably that's where he told Randall he was going when he went to be with Ennis), how it was in a bad way, etc, and Randall, being a ranch foreman himself, could've seen it a possibility for their future together and tried to sell the idea to Jack before that last meeting with Ennis. I think Jack would've rejected the idea at first, then after the argument with Ennis,angry and tired and broken as he was,thought it might be better to take what was on offer than waste anymore time waiting for something he was never going to get.
I know I'm really stubborn where this subject is concerned, I just can't accept that Jack was ever serious about living with Randall(at least not without telling Ennis about it first), so maybe that stubborness is clouding my thinking (such as it is ::) ) here, but it makes more sense to me for Randall to be the one suggesting he and Jack live together.
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Even if Jack had some feelings for Randall, other than just someone to cut the loneliness he felt without access to Ennis, were he given the choice between Randall or Ennis, I believe he would have chosen Ennis hands down. Ennis was a twenty-year love --not a two, three year relationship. Jack may have been willing to settle for Randall, but only because Ennis would not make himself available. Ennis gave himself physically, and maybe emotionally at some given times, but he would not make the big commitment to Jack that Jack wanted -- and probably never would have made that commitment. Randall, on the other hand, may have been willing to dump his wife for Jack. Who knows? I just see nothing in the movie that leads me to believe Randall was all that important to Jack. No matter what old John Twist says Jack told him. Jack's body language when Randall first comes on to him says it all. He is not interested. Now, when Ennis rejected him in their last scene together, that might have changed somewhat. From personal experience, though, when someone is not attractive to me, that is not likely to change, no matter what happens.
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Even if Jack had some feelings for Randall, other than just someone to cut the loneliness he felt without access to Ennis, were he given the choice between Randall or Ennis, I believe he would have chosen Ennis hands down. Ennis was a twenty-year love --not a two, three year relationship. Jack may have been willing to settle for Randall, but only because Ennis would not make himself available. Ennis gave himself physically, and maybe emotionally at some given times, but he would not make the big commitment to Jack that Jack wanted -- and probably never would have made that commitment. Randall, on the other hand, may have been willing to dump his wife for Jack. Who knows? I just see nothing in the movie that leads me to believe Randall was all that important to Jack. No matter what old John Twist says Jack told him. Jack's body language when Randall first comes on to him says it all. He is not interested. Now, when Ennis rejected him in their last scene together, that might have changed somewhat. From personal experience, though, when someone is not attractive to me, that is not likely to change, no matter what happens.
I did see a spark of attraction, when they were sitting at the table. They certainly "picked up on" each other, eyes held a little too long...and even though Jack looked away, he didn't look away in disgust or anything. He had a very intriguing look on his face, a little half-smile. As far as when they were out on the bench, and Randall made basically overt comments to him, I didn't see that Jack wasn't interested, as much as I saw Jack was kind of surprised at the invitation and wasn't sure how he wanted to respond yet.
Having said all that, I don't think either that Jack had or developed an abiding love for Randall, but as I said earlier, I can see him finding a nice companionship with sex...
kathy
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I think Jack definately loved Randall and found some good company with him in his final years. But that being said, Randall was not Ennis and would probably never completely fill the void that Ennis left in Jack's heart. :\'( :\'( :\'(
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You know, I'm not even convinced that Jack and Randall discussed living together. Right up to (and beyond?) their final meeting, Jack still dreamed of a life with Ennis, even if he also had some kind of "thing" going with Randall (and, for what it's worth, I still believe that was nothing more than sex and Jack would have given it up in an instant if Ennis made any sort of move towards commitment) Then, right after that meeting, Jack goes up to Lightning Flat and, feeling angry, upset and defeated, tells his folks that he's got someone else that he's going to bring up there, unable to speak of Ennis any more because it causes him too much pain. He uses Randall (maybe even without naming him) as a defence mechanism against his own pain and as a way to ward off any questions his father may have been asking about Ennis. Maybe he would have talked to Randall about moving up there afterwards if he really believed that he and Ennis were finished but I'm certain he wouldn't have done it while he was still seeing Ennis.
Just my feeling....I'm pretty stubborn when it comes to my belief that Jack could never have shared a life with anyone other than Ennis or loved anyone other than Ennis.
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Do those of you who think Jack had a more "serious" thing with Randall base that mostly on what Jack apparently said to his father, that his father said to Ennis? If not for just that statement, I otherwise wouldn't have given the idea of Jack wanting a "life" with Randall very much thought at all. Is there more in the SS or SP about him? I guess I don't love thinking about Jack having yet totally given up on Ennis...
kathy
Hello kathy. Yes, I guess I base it on this statement as well as what some of the deleted scenes seem to suggest. And I also base it on Jake Gyllenhaal's comments about Ennis's love being more faithful than Jack's. These are subject to interpretation of course. :)
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Personally, I do believe that Randall became more than just sex. Jack wanted to share a life together with him. The only other person he asked to do this with him was Ennis.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't know that it was Jack who asked Randall, do we? I can't watch any of the scenes from their last night onwards on their own, only when I'm watching the whole film (not sure why, it just doesn't feel right watching any of it out of context :-\\ ) so my memory of the scene where Jack's dad talks about Jack and Randall moving to LF is a bit sketchy, but I'm sure he says something like "he's got some other guy..." not "he asked some other guy..." or "he wanted some other guy..." ??? I've always felt that it was Randall's idea for him and Jack to move somewhere together, after all, it was Randall who made the first move on Jack in the first place, ok Jack did nothing to discourage him, but it's pretty clear (imo) that Randall was more into Jack than vice-versa. I'm not saying it didn't become more than just sex at some point,I'm sure Jack must have grown to have some sort of affection for him, but I can't see it being much more than just affection, because emotionally he didn't have anything more to give Randall,any love he had to give was for Ennis, so I don't think sharing the rest of his life with Randall would've occured to Jack, because that place in his dream was reserved for Ennis.
Randall, on the other hand (unless he had an "Ennis" himself, but assuming he didn't), could have easily fallen in love with Jack (well, haven't we all? ;) ) and had the same idyllic fantasy about him and Jack living together. Jack could've talked to him about his parents' ranch,(presumably that's where he told Randall he was going when he went to be with Ennis), how it was in a bad way, etc, and Randall, being a ranch foreman himself, could've seen it a possibility for their future together and tried to sell the idea to Jack before that last meeting with Ennis. I think Jack would've rejected the idea at first, then after the argument with Ennis,angry and tired and broken as he was,thought it might be better to take what was on offer than waste anymore time waiting for something he was never going to get.
I know I'm really stubborn where this subject is concerned, I just can't accept that Jack was ever serious about living with Randall(at least not without telling Ennis about it first), so maybe that stubborness is clouding my thinking (such as it is ::) ) here, but it makes more sense to me for Randall to be the one suggesting he and Jack live together.
This is a good point. I had always assumed that it was Jack who would have asked because of his love for a shared life together. Still, I cannot discount that it was perhaps Randall who aksed him first if he wanted to move in together.
Another reason why I think it was Jack who asked Randall was that we seem to get the impression that it was to Jack's home that they would be moving to. This fits the pattern of Jack's desire to share a life with someone he loved. If Randall was the one who initially asked, then it is a bit hard to think that he would have volunteered Jack's home to be the place where they would settle down. Of course, Jack may well have offered his parent's ranch after Randall had proposed living with him, but I think this seems to indicate that he was the one who proposed this idea initially to Randall.
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Even if Jack had some feelings for Randall, other than just someone to cut the loneliness he felt without access to Ennis, were he given the choice between Randall or Ennis, I believe he would have chosen Ennis hands down. Ennis was a twenty-year love --not a two, three year relationship. Jack may have been willing to settle for Randall, but only because Ennis would not make himself available. Ennis gave himself physically, and maybe emotionally at some given times, but he would not make the big commitment to Jack that Jack wanted -- and probably never would have made that commitment. Randall, on the other hand, may have been willing to dump his wife for Jack. Who knows? I just see nothing in the movie that leads me to believe Randall was all that important to Jack. No matter what old John Twist says Jack told him. Jack's body language when Randall first comes on to him says it all. He is not interested. Now, when Ennis rejected him in their last scene together, that might have changed somewhat. From personal experience, though, when someone is not attractive to me, that is not likely to change, no matter what happens.
Yes, this is a very valid question: even with Randall now at his side, would Jack have been able to live without Ennis for very long? I suspect not. But we shall never know as he died before anything happened.
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You know, I'm not even convinced that Jack and Randall discussed living together. Right up to (and beyond?) their final meeting, Jack still dreamed of a life with Ennis, even if he also had some kind of "thing" going with Randall (and, for what it's worth, I still believe that was nothing more than sex and Jack would have given it up in an instant if Ennis made any sort of move towards commitment) Then, right after that meeting, Jack goes up to Lightning Flat and, feeling angry, upset and defeated, tells his folks that he's got someone else that he's going to bring up there, unable to speak of Ennis any more because it causes him too much pain. He uses Randall (maybe even without naming him) as a defence mechanism against his own pain and as a way to ward off any questions his father may have been asking about Ennis. Maybe he would have talked to Randall about moving up there afterwards if he really believed that he and Ennis were finished but I'm certain he wouldn't have done it while he was still seeing Ennis.
Just my feeling....I'm pretty stubborn when it comes to my belief that Jack could never have shared a life with anyone other than Ennis or loved anyone other than Ennis.
Indeed, it may have all been just plans and "hot air". In spite of the deleted scenes, we really don't know if Jack would have gone through this. IMO, Jack died before he and Randall were able to advance on their plan (as can be gleaned from what Jack's father said to Ennis). As I had said before, it is possible that he was "testing" Ennis...
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You know, I'm not even convinced that Jack and Randall discussed living together. Right up to (and beyond?) their final meeting, Jack still dreamed of a life with Ennis, even if he also had some kind of "thing" going with Randall (and, for what it's worth, I still believe that was nothing more than sex and Jack would have given it up in an instant if Ennis made any sort of move towards commitment) Then, right after that meeting, Jack goes up to Lightning Flat and, feeling angry, upset and defeated, tells his folks that he's got someone else that he's going to bring up there, unable to speak of Ennis any more because it causes him too much pain. He uses Randall (maybe even without naming him) as a defence mechanism against his own pain and as a way to ward off any questions his father may have been asking about Ennis. Maybe he would have talked to Randall about moving up there afterwards if he really believed that he and Ennis were finished but I'm certain he wouldn't have done it while he was still seeing Ennis.
Just my feeling....I'm pretty stubborn when it comes to my belief that Jack could never have shared a life with anyone other than Ennis or loved anyone other than Ennis.
Agreed. That's what I like to think anyway.
kathy
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Do those of you who think Jack had a more "serious" thing with Randall base that mostly on what Jack apparently said to his father, that his father said to Ennis? If not for just that statement, I otherwise wouldn't have given the idea of Jack wanting a "life" with Randall very much thought at all. Is there more in the SS or SP about him? I guess I don't love thinking about Jack having yet totally given up on Ennis...
kathy
Hello kathy. Yes, I guess I base it on this statement as well as what some of the deleted scenes seem to suggest. And I also base it on Jake Gyllenhaal's comments about Ennis's love being more faithful than Jack's. These are subject to interpretation of course. :)
You know, I never knew about the deleted scene with Randall in it. If they had shown it, by the way, I believe we would be forced to think Jack was killed by those mechanics with the tire irons. As it is, we really are free to assume, if we want to, Lureen's story. With that deleted scene, we would know for sure that Jack did see Randall. But I assumed that anyway, based on Jack's comment about the "ranch foreman's wife" and Mr. Twist's comment. I don't have a real problem (except my heart does) with Jack seeing Randall, but as to their talking about some permanent thing together, I doubt that happened. It might have happened later, if Jack had lived and Ennis -- for reasons I cannot even imagine -- had continued to refuse Jack's offer of a sweet life...
kathy
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Do those of you who think Jack had a more "serious" thing with Randall base that mostly on what Jack apparently said to his father, that his father said to Ennis? If not for just that statement, I otherwise wouldn't have given the idea of Jack wanting a "life" with Randall very much thought at all. Is there more in the SS or SP about him? I guess I don't love thinking about Jack having yet totally given up on Ennis...
kathy
Hello kathy. Yes, I guess I base it on this statement as well as what some of the deleted scenes seem to suggest. And I also base it on Jake Gyllenhaal's comments about Ennis's love being more faithful than Jack's. These are subject to interpretation of course. :)
You know, I never knew about the deleted scene with Randall in it. If they had shown it, by the way, I believe we would be forced to think Jack was killed by those mechanics with the tire irons. As it is, we really are free to assume, if we want to, Lureen's story. With that deleted scene, we would know for sure that Jack did see Randall. But I assumed that anyway, based on Jack's comment about the "ranch foreman's wife" and Mr. Twist's comment. I don't have a real problem (except my heart does) with Jack seeing Randall, but as to their talking about some permanent thing together, I doubt that happened. It might have happened later, if Jack had lived and Ennis -- for reasons I cannot even imagine -- had continued to refuse Jack's offer of a sweet life...
kathy
I have to confess I hold a secret affinity for Randall. I think he would have been a kind, stable and supportive companion for Jack who clearly needed companionship. He seems genuinely caring and attracted to Jack, too, and not in an overt or sleazy way.
And I really believe we need to take Jack's father's comments to Ennis with a huge grain of salt. He was trying to bait and insult Ennis and it seemed obvious to me he was really trying to hurt him with his words. So I have never taken what he said as the truth.
I can also totally see why Jack would be attracted to Randall. Certainly not as a stand-in for Ennis, but for comfort and a little respite from his pain.
condiments (formerly known as Shelley. Actually I still am Shelley, but, well, you know)
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I have to confess I hold a secret affinity for Randall. I think he would have been a kind, stable and supportive companion for Jack who clearly needed companionship. He seems genuinely caring and attracted to Jack, too, and not in an overt or sleazy way.
And I really believe we need to take Jack's father's comments to Ennis with a huge grain of salt. He was trying to bait and insult Ennis and it seemed obvious to me he was really trying to hurt him with his words. So I have never taken what he said as the truth.
I can also totally see why Jack would be attracted to Randall. Certainly not as a stand-in for Ennis, but for comfort and a little respite from his pain.
condiments (formerly known as Shelley. Actually I still am Shelley, but, well, you know)
Condiments -- cool name!! Former Shelley who is still Shelley...
Obviously, I agree about Randall, though I don't like to spend too much thought on it-- I mean on speculating whether Jack and Randall would have had a more serious thing together if Jack had lived. But I do see Jack getting together with him during those long times without Ennis. And don't they look pretty darn hot together in this pic? Well, Jack certainly looks hot.
An odd-interesting thing about gay men and lesbians (and this is on topic). I frankly found it kind of disconcerting to be the taller one in the couple, with another woman, having been used to being the shorter one when I was with men. I wonder if men feel the same. The shorter man, that is, to be with a taller man, if the shorter man is used to being taller than the woman he was with. I mean, men who had been with women, obviously. Maybe with men who have been gay all their lives, the shorter-or-taller thing just isn't any big issue. So anyway, I think of how Jack might feel being with this taller and bigger man -- it might have been an unusual feeling for him, and I wonder if you can't help but instinctly feel things like that the bigger man is the "protector," things like that.
kathy
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi77.imagethrust.com%2Fi%2F395402%2Fjackolder10c.jpg111&hash=31c717e3c38c6de95d43279b446eb705b4530980)
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Kathy (still known as Kathy),
What a fascinating speculation. I also wonder if Jack would feel "protected" by Randall's size. As a woman, I know I instinctively feel that with big men. Well, with nice big men. If they're not nice, then it's threatening. But Randall seems really nice and would be very kind to Jack.
But I need to say again, I would never see Randall as any kind of substitute for Ennis.
condiments (or Shelley)
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Kathy (still known as Kathy),
What a fascinating speculation. I also wonder if Jack would feel "protected" by Randall's size. As a woman, I know I instinctively feel that with big men. Well, with nice big men. If they're not nice, then it's threatening. But Randall seems really nice and would be very kind to Jack.
But I need to say again, I would never see Randall as any kind of substitute for Ennis.
condiments (or Shelley)
Good point -- a larger man can be a protector or a threat, depending. But I think Jack wouldn't really want to be placed in the position of feeling he needed to be protected -- though the gods know he did, when he acted a little too out in an unsafe place. But anyway, I'm thinking that with Ennis it would have been better, because they were more equal and could have each other's backs. Ennis was a good fighter and a good shot, and he could feel protected with Ennis but not feel less-than because of being smaller? I don't know. In this case, I don't think we women can really get how men might feel, because as women we're kind of set up to need protecting, by men, from men! That's the wierd conundrum. Except, gay men need protecting, too, because big nasty straight men want to do them physical harm. So it certainly helps for a gay man to be big.
Trying to keep this specifically on topic...back to Jack and Randall -- there just is absolutely not that gut-deep spark with Randall as there is with Ennis. Can you picture Jack and Randall having a "reunion" like Jack and Ennis did? NO.
kathy
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Hello kathy. Yes, I guess I base it on this statement as well as what some of the deleted scenes seem to suggest. And I also base it on Jake Gyllenhaal's comments about Ennis's love being more faithful than Jack's. These are subject to interpretation of course. :)
You know, I never knew about the deleted scene with Randall in it. If they had shown it, by the way, I believe we would be forced to think Jack was killed by those mechanics with the tire irons. As it is, we really are free to assume, if we want to, Lureen's story. With that deleted scene, we would know for sure that Jack did see Randall. But I assumed that anyway, based on Jack's comment about the "ranch foreman's wife" and Mr. Twist's comment. I don't have a real problem (except my heart does) with Jack seeing Randall, but as to their talking about some permanent thing together, I doubt that happened. It might have happened later, if Jack had lived and Ennis -- for reasons I cannot even imagine -- had continued to refuse Jack's offer of a sweet life...
kathy
I do think that removing those scenes kept the movie more faithful to the ambiguity that is at the heart of the ss. In any case, the ss mentioned the "other" person only indirectly (in John Twist's scene with Ennis). I do like the fact that Randall remains a mysterious character in the final movie version. Any love he and Jack shared is therefore left as an open question. Jack's love for Ennis remains largely intact in our minds, even if we feel that something was about to give.
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I have to confess I hold a secret affinity for Randall. I think he would have been a kind, stable and supportive companion for Jack who clearly needed companionship. He seems genuinely caring and attracted to Jack, too, and not in an overt or sleazy way.
And I really believe we need to take Jack's father's comments to Ennis with a huge grain of salt. He was trying to bait and insult Ennis and it seemed obvious to me he was really trying to hurt him with his words. So I have never taken what he said as the truth.
I can also totally see why Jack would be attracted to Randall. Certainly not as a stand-in for Ennis, but for comfort and a little respite from his pain.
condiments (formerly known as Shelley. Actually I still am Shelley, but, well, you know)
Although I do personally take John Twist's comments at face value, I certainly cannot rule out what you say here. I am aware that many of us here do not agree on whether John Twist was intentionally contemptuous at Ennis and even Jack, but what you say does remain a tantalizing possibility. How much truth there is in John Twist's statements is certainly anybody's guess. It builds on top of the beautiful ambiguity that surrounds the fate of Jack's love for Ennis in the closing days of his life.
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This is certainly a difficult thought to entertain, that Jack may have considered finally leaving Lureen and moving up to LF with Randall. Jack must have mentioned Randall in some context, because John Twist wouldn't have had any idea about him otherwise. I guess I've always preferred to think that if Jack was thinking out loud to his dad about having Randall move up with him it might have been out of loneliness. A desire to create in his mind the illusion, some poor semblance of the life he had once dreamed of with Ennis. But it was always Randall acting as a substitute for the man he really wanted. It might have been better than continuing to live with a woman when that wasn't what Jack needed physically, but it would have been much less than his dream of living with the man he needed emotionally as well. Pipe dreams, words spoken to comfort himself maybe, rather than any real plans??
I keep trying to find a short, simple answer to the question of what makes Brokeback Mountain an "epic" love story. Because I always get asked about why I love it so much and I get frustrated that I can't find the easy answer to that. But I think it comes down simply to the fact that Jack and Ennis were irreplaceable to each other. It didn't matter who else might come and go in their lives, no one else would mean the same to them. Ever. It's what made the loss of that love a tragedy. Regardless of the Randalls, or Cassies or Almas and Lureens, there was a bond between Jack and Ennis that was never broken. The ambiguity you speak eloquently of tpe regarding Jack's state of mind prior to his death was for me always about what he was going to do about his feelings for Ennis, not if he'd stopped loving him. That had never, ever been a question in my mind. It's the closest thing to a fairy tale ending I can find for the boys in this story, I guess. Maybe that's a romantic view of it, but it soothes me. :)
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Beautifully, beautifully said, Missy. "Epic" yes, and I think the idea of Ennis and Jack being archetypal characters also adds to why it gets to us so much -- everything we see about love and life and ourselves in Ennis and Jack and their love and their lives and loss... Also, sometimes it just doesn't need to be explained -- it's like falling in love. I know that's what it was/is for me -- I just fell in love with Ennis and Jack and their love, and the story lends itself to so much interpretation. And NTM how it has brought people together to talk about it.
kathy
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But my last reply wasn't really on topic, Jack's love for Ennis. It's just that beautiful mystery that love is, why Jack saw in Ennis the one he wanted to be with always. I wonder h ow much of it had to do with Ennis being the kind of person who didn't give of himself too overtly, and to some people, maybe to Jack, that is a challenge that they like. (Whereas for Ennis, Jack was the kind of person that what you see is what you get.) Making it sound like just a "challenge" seems to somehow lessen it, though. I don't mean exactly that. Jack wasn't looking for a conquest or anything superficial like that. But Jack's nature, of exploring (at least much more than Ennis did) and following his dreams, would have made him not give up as some other person might have done with Ennis.
That's the good part of it; the other part of it is his frustration with Ennis. But he loved him still. Just love -- the subject of the ages, the unanswerable question.
kathy
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kathy, that's very intuitive, about Jack. Jack being the one with the need to search out more, to explore. Maybe it was the mystery of Ennis that drew Jack so quickly, and kept him all those years. :)
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I keep trying to find a short, simple answer to the question of what makes Brokeback Mountain an "epic" love story. Because I always get asked about why I love it so much and I get frustrated that I can't find the easy answer to that. But I think it comes down simply to the fact that Jack and Ennis were irreplaceable to each other. It didn't matter who else might come and go in there lives, no one else would mean the same to them. Ever. It's what made the loss of that love a tragedy. Regardless of the Randalls, or Cassies or Almas and Lureens, there was a bond between Jack and Ennis that was never broken. The ambiguity you speak eloquently of tpe regarding Jack's state of mind prior to his death was for me always about what he was going to do about his feelings for Ennis, not if he'd stopped loving him.
:\'( Great post MissRed. I share that romanticism. It was love plain and simple- why else did Jack keep driving to see Ennis? It wasn't for a coupla high altitude f*cks once or twice a year- I'm sure that factored in ;) but he wanted Ennis, he loved him.There was something that kept them together for 20 years. I mean was the sex that good that Jack drove 14 hours each way 2-3 times a year? Was it that good that Ennis quit his jobs to see Jack? There was something more there- love. That could just be my romantic side refusing to believe anything else. But why else do what they did and for so long?
He wanted that dream to be fulfilled with Ennis. I think Jack's upbringing- lonely and the way his father treated him -made him cling even harder to his dream- he knew Ennis loved him but he needed it to be validated, he needed to feel he was worth it.
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I keep trying to find a short, simple answer to the question of what makes Brokeback Mountain an "epic" love story. Because I always get asked about why I love it so much and I get frustrated that I can't find the easy answer to that. But I think it comes down simply to the fact that Jack and Ennis were irreplaceable to each other. It didn't matter who else might come and go in there lives, no one else would mean the same to them. Ever. It's what made the loss of that love a tragedy. Regardless of the Randalls, or Cassies or Almas and Lureens, there was a bond between Jack and Ennis that was never broken. The ambiguity you speak eloquently of tpe regarding Jack's state of mind prior to his death was for me always about what he was going to do about his feelings for Ennis, not if he'd stopped loving him.
:\'( Great post MissRed. I share that romanticism. It was love plain and simple- why else did Jack keep driving to see Ennis? It wasn't for a coupla high altitude f*cks once or twice a year- I'm sure that factored in ;) but he wanted Ennis, he loved him.There was something that kept them together for 20 years. I mean was the sex that good that Jack drove 14 hours each way 2-3 times a year? Was it that good that Ennis quit his jobs to see Jack? There was something more there- love. That could just be my romantic side refusing to believe anything else. But why else do what they did and for so long?
He wanted that dream to be fulfilled with Ennis. I think Jack's upbringing- lonely and the way his father treated him -made him cling even harder to his dream- he knew Ennis loved him but he needed it to be validated, he needed to feel he was worth it.
Beautifully said, both MissRed and LJN :\'(
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kathy, that's very intuitive, about Jack. Jack being the one with the need to search out more, to explore. Maybe it was the mystery of Ennis that drew Jack so quickly, and kept him all those years. :)
Beautiful post MissRed ^f^
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I think the idea of Ennis and Jack being archetypal characters also adds to why it gets to us so much -- everything we see about love and life and ourselves in Ennis and Jack and their love and their lives and loss... Also, sometimes it just doesn't need to be explained -- it's like falling in love. I know that's what it was/is for me -- I just fell in love with Ennis and Jack and their love, and the story lends itself to so much interpretation. And NTM how it has brought people together to talk about it.
kathy, you thought last night that your comments here were OT, but I'm not entirely sure that's so. The way you're speaking of our passion for BBM, it's not unlike the love Jack and Ennis have for each other. It's incredible that after all this time, this film still draws new people into its magic. And the number of "first-wavers" who are still committed almost a year later is humbling.
So ej reminds me of the love between Jack and Ennis. That Jack and Ennis found each other was an act of fate, I think. They created this love of theirs during the brief time spent together on the mountains. I'm guessing they had something like maybe 8 weeks together, perhaps 6 weeks as lovers, give or take? And yet that too-short union in 1963 was enough to bind them to each other for the rest of their lives.
How did ej come to be? We started with Annie's haunting short story. Thirty pages or so in the New Yorker, wasn't it? We have the screenplay. And then we were gifted with the film. A mere 2 hours and 14 minutes (est.) of the most perfect story telling you'd ever hope to see.
That's all. That's the entirety of what we started with. And from that staggeringly spare foundation a whole culture has been born. At ennnisjack (and other forums) people like us are connected and drawn together through all these months and from around the world; fans meet on-line then travel hundreds of miles to meet each other face-to-face; the very word "brokeback" has seeped into mainstream culture so that people who have never saw the movie know of it. Even in the unique world of fan fiction BBM has set new boundaries, inspired whole new concepts. All this based on one short story, it's screen play and 134 minutes of film! That astounds me!
Thee's an old Sunday school teaching that basically states that if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you can move mountains, Brokeback Mountain the film is our mustard seed, and from it we've created mountains!
Long story short - what's happened here at ej, the impact of BBM - actually helps me to understand and believe in the love Jack had for Ennis, and Ennis for him; I can believe that a brief but powerful exposure to something that touches an essential part of you will change your life forever. I can believe in Jack's love for Ennis more completely now, because I've wittnessed the power a quiet little film has had on the lives of everyone here. :) There is no questioning Jack's feelings after this, not for me, whatever his words or actions.
(Hope that brings this lack-of-sleep ramble sufficently back on topic to avoid FMM's %&) )
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This is certainly a difficult thought to entertain, that Jack may have considered finally leaving Lureen and moving up to LF with Randall. Jack must have mentioned Randall in some context, because John Twist wouldn't have had any idea about him otherwise. I guess I've always preferred to think that if Jack was thinking out loud to his dad about having Randall move up with him it might have been out of loneliness. A desire to create in his mind the illusion, some poor semblance of the life he had once dreamed of with Ennis. But it was always Randall acting as a substitute for the man he really wanted. It might have been better than continuing to live with a woman when that wasn't what Jack needed physically, but it would have been much less than his dream of living with the man he needed emotionally as well. Pipe dreams, words spoken to comfort himself maybe, rather than any real plans??
I keep trying to find a short, simple answer to the question of what makes Brokeback Mountain an "epic" love story. Because I always get asked about why I love it so much and I get frustrated that I can't find the easy answer to that. But I think it comes down simply to the fact that Jack and Ennis were irreplaceable to each other. It didn't matter who else might come and go in there lives, no one else would mean the same to them. Ever. It's what made the loss of that love a tragedy. Regardless of the Randalls, or Cassies or Almas and Lureens, there was a bond between Jack and Ennis that was never broken. The ambiguity you speak eloquently of tpe regarding Jack's state of mind prior to his death was for me always about what he was going to do about his feelings for Ennis, not if he'd stopped loving him. That had never, ever been a question in my mind. It's the closest thing to a fairy tale ending I can find for the boys in this story, I guess. Maybe that's a romantic view of it, but it soothes me. :)
Jack loved Ennis -- in spite of all their weaknesses and failings. And even if the dream of a shared life remained unfulfilled, Jack also knew deep in his heart that he was also loved.
This is our sole consolation. Their love suffices.
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I share that romanticism. It was love plain and simple- why else did Jack keep driving to see Ennis? It wasn't for a coupla high altitude f*cks once or twice a year- I'm sure that factored in ;) but he wanted Ennis, he loved him.There was something that kept them together for 20 years. I mean was the sex that good that Jack drove 14 hours each way 2-3 times a year? Was it that good that Ennis quit his jobs to see Jack? There was something more there- love. That could just be my romantic side refusing to believe anything else. But why else do what they did and for so long?
He wanted that dream to be fulfilled with Ennis. I think Jack's upbringing- lonely and the way his father treated him -made him cling even harder to his dream- he knew Ennis loved him but he needed it to be validated, he needed to feel he was worth it.
Beautiful, LJN! ^f^ And too sad to think that Ennis being unable to take the steps to a life with Jack not only broke Jack's heart, but might have feed into his feelings of unworthiness. The ones first instilled in Jack by John Twist, and then feed by years living under L.D. Newsome's contempt. :\'( That's a thought that hurts - very, very badly! :\'(
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Long story short - what's happened here at ej, the impact of BBM - actually helps me to understand and believe in the love Jack had for Ennis, and Ennis for him; I can believe that a brief but powerful exposure to something that touches an essential part of you will change your life forever. I can believe in Jack's love for Ennis more completely now, because I've wittnessed the power a quiet little film has had on the lives of everyone here. :) There is no questioning Jack's feelings after this, not for me, whatever his words or actions.
(Hope that brings this lack-of-sleep ramble sufficently back on topic to avoid FMM's %&) )
MissRed - that is one incredible post. More incredible because it's so totally true. I knew the moment I left the cinema that my love for this story would never grow old - it doesn't take years, or even six weeks, to fall into a love so deep that you know you'll never give it up, it can happen in seconds (or 134 minutes in this case!)
Jack and Ennis were soulmates....and I think all of us on here are too. They were bound together for eternity by their love, just as we are bound together by our love for them.
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Love isn't a feeling, it's a force of nature..
All i wanted to say :)
I love all your posts. :^^)
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But my last reply wasn't really on topic, Jack's love for Ennis. It's just that beautiful mystery that love is, why Jack saw in Ennis the one he wanted to be with always. I wonder h ow much of it had to do with Ennis being the kind of person who didn't give of himself too overtly, and to some people, maybe to Jack, that is a challenge that they like. (Whereas for Ennis, Jack was the kind of person that what you see is what you get.) Making it sound like just a "challenge" seems to somehow lessen it, though. I don't mean exactly that. Jack wasn't looking for a conquest or anything superficial like that. But Jack's nature, of exploring (at least much more than Ennis did) and following his dreams, would have made him not give up as some other person might have done with Ennis.
That's the good part of it; the other part of it is his frustration with Ennis. But he loved him still. Just love -- the subject of the ages, the unanswerable question.
kathy
Do we all believe in the reality of unconditional love?
I do. And I believe that, in spite of the seedy diversions and the final loss of hope, Jack's love for Ennis was unconditional.
It is indeed the beautiful mystery that love can attain. This is what it means for a love to never grow old.
frances, had exposed the heart of unconditional love best, in perhaps (for me) the most memorable of all quotes in the pix and poems thread:
Thus much and more; and yet thou lov'st me not,
And never wilt! Love dwells not in our will.
Nor can I blame thee, though it be my lot
To strongly, wrongly, vainly love thee still.
(Byron)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg219.imageshack.us%2Fimg219%2F9524%2Fbscap0255mr4.jpg&hash=b6f3a90632ddcf42e18705c3cbe55b2c17b30ae1)
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I can believe in Jack's love for Ennis more completely now, because I've wittnessed the power a quiet little film has had on the lives of everyone here. There is no questioning Jack's feelings after this, not for me, whatever his words or actions.
Jack and Ennis were soulmates....and I think all of us on here are too. They were bound together for eternity by their love, just as we are bound together by our love for them.
Beautiful Miss-Red and No Reins. :\'( <^(
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After reading this thread, it has dawned on me that perhaps it is worth discussing what Jake thought about Ennis' love or lack thereof of him. Did Jack think Ennis loved him? After Ennis' words in their final scene? Did he feel Ennis loved him less than he loved Ennis? Could thoughts such as these make Jack change in some ways towards Ennis? Hmmmmmmmm?????
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Jack loved Ennis -- in spite of all their weaknesses and failings. And even if the dream of a shared life remained unfulfilled, Jack also knew deep in his heart that he was also loved.
This is our sole consolation. Their love suffices.
Yes, yes. That is key to Jack's love of Ennis -- that he knew Ennis loved him!
kathy
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kathy, you thought last night that your comments here were OT, but I'm not entirely sure that's so. The way you're speaking of our passion for BBM, it's not unlike the love Jack and Ennis have for each other. It's incredible that after all this time, this film still draws new people into its magic. And the number of "first-wavers" who are still committed almost a year later is humbling.
So ej reminds me of the love between Jack and Ennis. That Jack and Ennis found each other was an act of fate, I think. They created this love of theirs during the brief time spent together on the mountains. I'm guessing they had something like maybe 8 weeks together, perhaps 6 weeks as lovers, give or take? And yet that too-short union in 1963 was enough to bind them to each other for the rest of their lives.
How did ej come to be? We started with Annie's haunting short story. Thirty pages or so in the New Yorker, wasn't it? We have the screenplay. And then we were gifted with the film. A mere 2 hours and 14 minutes (est.) of the most perfect story telling you'd ever hope to see.
That's all. That's the entirety of what we started with. And from that staggeringly spare foundation a whole culture has been born. At ennnisjack (and other forums) people like us are connected and drawn together through all these months and from around the world; fans meet on-line then travel hundreds of miles to meet each other face-to-face; the very word "brokeback" has seeped into mainstream culture so that people who have never saw the movie know of it. Even in the unique world of fan fiction BBM has set new boundaries, inspired whole new concepts. All this based on one short story, it's screen play and 134 minutes of film! That astounds me!
Thee's an old Sunday school teaching that basically states that if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you can move mountains, Brokeback Mountain the film is our mustard seed, and from it we've created mountains!
Long story short - what's happened here at ej, the impact of BBM - actually helps me to understand and believe in the love Jack had for Ennis, and Ennis for him; I can believe that a brief but powerful exposure to something that touches an essential part of you will change your life forever. I can believe in Jack's love for Ennis more completely now, because I've wittnessed the power a quiet little film has had on the lives of everyone here. :) There is no questioning Jack's feelings after this, not for me, whatever his words or actions.
(Hope that brings this lack-of-sleep ramble sufficently back on topic to avoid FMM's %&) )
MissRed: I can add nothing to this, what you said, except to say what a beautiful post. It shows how these love-feelings (Jack for Ennis, to be on topic) can spark and catch fire and burn in us for a long, long time...
kathy
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Maybe for ever - I wonder whether , if you fall in love with someone, that feeling ever entirely leaves you, even if the whole thing goes wrong or at least doesn't work out. There's a poem by Tennyson, one line of which reads !I am a part of all that I have met;" for "met" one could substitute "loved". Ennis became a part of Jack ( an d vice versa); if you let someone inside your head and heart you can never entirely evict them. You might try to pretend they aren't there but eventually you find you are wrong.Once two loves are woven together by love, it's impossible to untangle them. If Jack had last thoughts, they were of Ennis, whom he had always loved even when he was most frustrated and unhappy.
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Maybe for ever - I wonder whether , if you fall in love with someone, that feeling ever entirely leaves you, even if the whole thing goes wrong or at least doesn't work out. There's a poem by Tennyson, one line of which reads !I am a part of all that I have met;" for "met" one could substitute "loved". Ennis became a part of Jack ( an d vice versa); if you let someone inside your head and heart you can never entirely evict them. You might try to pretend they aren't there but eventually you find you are wrong.Once two loves are woven together by love, it's impossible to untangle them. If Jack had last thoughts, they were of Ennis, whom he had always loved even when he was most frustrated and unhappy.
Beautiful and true... :\'(
kathy
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Maybe for ever - I wonder whether , if you fall in love with someone, that feeling ever entirely leaves you, even if the whole thing goes wrong or at least doesn't work out. There's a poem by Tennyson, one line of which reads !I am a part of all that I have met;" for "met" one could substitute "loved". Ennis became a part of Jack ( an d vice versa); if you let someone inside your head and heart you can never entirely evict them. You might try to pretend they aren't there but eventually you find you are wrong.Once two loves are woven together by love, it's impossible to untangle them. If Jack had last thoughts, they were of Ennis, whom he had always loved even when he was most frustrated and unhappy.
Beautiful post Welshwitch :^^)
True as well. Not matter what happened, Jack and Ennis would never be able to forget each other.
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Yes, yes. That is key to Jack's love of Ennis -- that he knew Ennis loved him!
kathy
I cannot imagine lasting that long (nearly 20 years) under such circumstances. Only the certainty of love can do such wonders.
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I have to agree. Twenty years under unfavorable circumstances is quite a bit to endure. However, when a strong love is present between two people the obstacles tend to take a back seat. Jack and Ennis had each other to look forward to...no matter how infrequent their reunions were. I can't say that I wouldn't have handled their situation differently.
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I have to agree. Twenty years under unfavorable circumstances is quite a bit to endure. However, when a strong love is present between two people the obstacles tend to take a back seat. Jack and Ennis had each other to look forward to...no matter how infrequent their reunions were. I can't say that I wouldn't have handled their situation differently.
CSC, I can't tell if I should condemn Jack or commend him. Could he have been more insistent? More forceful? The love was strong, but there was a cancer at the heart of it. It killed both of them, to a certain extent. They are martyrs to their love.
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tpe it is a difficult assessment. The cancer you refer to is a fear of their relationship forced upon them by society. Although Jack seemed more willing to deal the affects, the cancer couldn't have been overcome (or arrested) unless both were ready to fight head on. Unfortunately, this was a fight where Ennis may have felt ill equipped.
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tpe it is a difficult assessment. The cancer you refer to is a fear of their relationship forced upon them by society. Although Jack seemed more willing to deal the affects, the cancer couldn't have been overcome (or arrested) unless both were ready to fight head on. Unfortunately, this was a fight where Ennis may have felt ill equipped.
I think so too. It was a nowin situation, most likely. I think Jack understood Ennis's plight, but he just couldn't stand it anymore in the end. This is what is most heartbreaking about this love: it felt that it no longer had room to move...
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LJN said:
...I think Jack's upbringing- lonely and the way his father treated him -made him cling even harder to his dream- he knew Ennis loved him but he needed it to be validated, he needed to feel he was worth it.
Beautiful, LJN! ^f^ And too sad to think that Ennis being unable to take the steps to a life with Jack not only broke Jack's heart, but might have feed into his feelings of unworthiness. The ones first instilled in Jack by John Twist, and then feed by years living under L.D. Newsome's contempt. :\'( That's a thought that hurts - very, very badly! :\'(
Oh this just breaks my heart. I feel like I haven't exactly looked at Jack from this perspective before. (Isn't it amazing how we can keep getting insights after all this time?) That Jack might have needed validation. Oh god, I just want to cry for him. This makes me feel like he is as tragic a character as Ennis. A sweet, clever, open and honest and adventuresome boy makes his way as best he can, but along the road has more than the normal share of being shot down. Okay, yes, Ennis loves him...but finally, if Ennis had given himself to Jack, Jack could have relaxed in his beingness, felt truly wanted... Excuse me, have to go dry my eyes.
kathy
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Reading this thread has made me even more sympathetic towards Jack. The tortured portayal of Ennis sometimes overshadows the pain that Jack dealt with. He truly loved Ennis and was shot down time after time. :\'(
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It'sa the old appearance v reality theme - see the whole of Shakespeare. Ennis is portrayed as more taciturn, looks more toirtured, by the end appears a tragically isolated figure. Jack is always more forthcoming, eager, full of life, involved in society - doesn't mean he's suffering any the less, just hiding it in a different way.
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Well said welshwitch! O0
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Yes, well said, ww. Did one of them really understand how much the other suffered?
Jack loved Ennis in a more expressive manner. Likewise, he suffered more openly. It did not appear tortured like Ennis's, but Jack's suffering was real and heartbreaking, nonetheless.
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Beautifully expressed, welshwitch and tpe. ^f^
It had often bothered me that because Jack was easier, freer with this emotions, he was at times judged to feel "less".
Now I find it heartbreaking to think that whatever suffering he did openly, there was likely a tremendous well of additional hurt unseen, underneath, kept hidden. How deep the hurt must have gone, that not all of it could be contained.
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Beautifully expressed, welshwitch and tpe. ^f^
It had often bothered me that because Jack was easier, freer with this emotions, he was at times judged to feel "less".
Now I find it heartbreaking to think that whatever suffering he did openly, there was likely a tremendous well of additional hurt unseen, underneath, kept hidden. How deep the hurt must have gone, that not all of it could be contained.
Yes, there is that bias that something that is more emotive/expressive is less deep. I guess the attitude echos the saying "still waters run deep". Although true, love is never as simple as that.
Jack never went overboeard when expressing his love for Ennis. It was restrained and moving. It is very very difficult to express one's love in a sincere and yet meaningful way. Sometimes, remaining silent is the easy way out... Once you express your love, you become vulnerable.
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Hi - I'm new on Ennisjack.com and this is my first post. Eek. I don't think I've got much to add to this so far; all of you have taken the words right out of my mouth and phrased them BEAUTIFULLY. You moved me to tears. So thank you, and I hope I can offer some insight when I've got used to how these boards work.
:)
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P.S. Can any of you see my display picture? I've had massive trouble finding one the right size, and I'm not sure if it worked.
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P.S. Can any of you see my display picture? I've had massive trouble finding one the right size, and I'm not sure if it worked.
Check your personal messages
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Hi - I'm new on Ennisjack.com and this is my first post. Eek. I don't think I've got much to add to this so far; all of you have taken the words right out of my mouth and phrased them BEAUTIFULLY. You moved me to tears. So thank you, and I hope I can offer some insight when I've got used to how these boards work.
:)
theohsocurlyone, welcome to the forum. Take your time to look at all the different threads. Everyday, I find things that move me.
Jack's love for Ennis moves you? You are in good company here.
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Hi - I'm new on Ennisjack.com and this is my first post. Eek. I don't think I've got much to add to this so far; all of you have taken the words right out of my mouth and phrased them BEAUTIFULLY. You moved me to tears. So thank you, and I hope I can offer some insight when I've got used to how these boards work.
:)
#$# theohsocurlyone. I am looking forward to reading your thoughts on a movie I love more than any other movie made...ever.
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theohsocurlyone, welcome to the forum. Take your time to look at all the different threads. Everyday, I find things that move me.
Jack's love for Ennis moves you? You are in good company here.
Welcome from me, too, theohsocurlyone (got to think of a shorter nickname for you, ohso? curlyone?). ;)
I've been here for months, and there are still threads yet to explore. There is such a wealth of both camaraderie and interesting and moving discussion -- you can indulge all you want in exploring this beautiful love of Ennis and Jack.
kathy
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hi, tosco ( my version of your name) and welcome to the forum. You will find it takes weeks if not months to read all the intersting comments and opinions here - but it's a good way of clarifying your own reactions.
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Beautiful posts about Jack's suffering and its being less evident. I think you can see Jack's love for Ennis every time he looks at him and I think you will find his suffering in the same place - his eyes.
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Beautiful posts about Jack's suffering and its being less evident. I think you can see Jack's love for Ennis every time he looks at him and I think you will find his suffering in the same place - his eyes.
Great post FlwrChild.
Jack's eyes are definately a window to his soul :\'( :\'( :\'(
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I think you can see Jack's love for Ennis every time he looks at him and I think you will find his suffering in the same place - his eyes.
Perfectly said, FlwrChld. ^f^
Maybe that's why Jack couldn't look at Ennis when he told him "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it." He was risking revealing enough with his words right then, he might not have wanted to reveal everything that was in his eyes at that moment, too.
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Very good point, MississaugaRed.
In the scene where Jack says these words to Ennis, he looks far and away, and not at Ennis. But you can tell that there was almost 20 years of love and suffering in those eyes. And I surmise that Ennis saw it too.
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My heart just broke all over again. Can't even imagine what poor Jack's felt like... :-\\
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It's also the kind of love we'd all like to think we're capable of but often aren't.
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I love Jack for trying. He is inept in many ways, but the way he loves moves me deeply.
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I love Jack for trying.
Agreed <^( <^( <^(
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In the scene where Jack says these words to Ennis, he looks far and away, and not at Ennis. But you can tell that there was almost 20 years of love and suffering in those eyes. And I surmise that Ennis saw it too.
I agree tpe. I know there are those who felt Ennis should have said something in reply to Jack's revelation. Personally, I believe Ennis didn't know how to respond.
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I flip flop all the time on that- Sometimes I just want to scream at Ennis for not repsonding to him, sometimes I think he knows that he has to break the news to Jack the next day about August and feels even worse and then sometimes I think that he starts thinking because his big phrase is "If you can't fix it, you've got to stand it" and Jack is somewhat saying he can't stand it. Somtimes I see that as a sort of cry for help- "I can't stand it, fix it for me Ennis." :\'(
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I agree tpe. I know there are those who felt Ennis should have said something in reply to Jack's revelation. Personally, I believe Ennis didn't know how to respond.
Ennis couldn't say anything to the contrary, because he knew that what Jack said was true. And that it scared him to realize that he felt likewise.
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I flip flop all the time on that- Sometimes I just want to scream at Ennis for not repsonding to him, sometimes I think he knows that he has to break the news to Jack the next day about August and feels even worse and then sometimes I think that he starts thinking because his big phrase is "If you can't fix it, you've got to stand it" and Jack is somewhat saying he can't stand it. Somtimes I see that as a sort of cry for help- "I can't stand it, fix it for me Ennis." :\'(
I suspect that Ennis was very guarded at this point.
We all agree that Ennis felt the same way deep down, no?
If yes, then he probably felt that to admit to similar feelings would expose the incongruity of the status quo: being truly in love and yet unable to bring that love to fruition. Ennis must have felt that to have said smething similar would be tabtamount to admitting that the status quo was untenable.
It was untenable, but Ennis was afraid.
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Ennis hadn't admitted his feelings for Jack for twenty years - after so long it's kiind of hard to change and say something you've tried to deny and suppressed so firmly. then there's also the fact that it's hard to deal with the expression of intense emotion from another person when that emotion is directed at you. I tend to think that Ennis has no idea how to respond, certainly partly because he hasn't told Jack about not being able to make their usual August meeting but for other reasons too. - if you admit something, then you've moved on to a point where you might be expected to do something to change the present situation, and Ennis can't cope with even the idea of that.
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A simple I miss you too would have been nice. Iv'e always thought that Jack;s words begged a response from Ennis. After 20 years he deserved that at least. There 's an emptiness there that needed filling. Jack had to assume too much. Too much to long.
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I do agree that this was a cry for help from Jack. He knew Ennis's stand: we've got to stand it. Clearly, Jack was telling Ennis that his love for him was much stronger than himself.
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You all are making me cry. It's like I'm feeling some of the emptiness that Jack must have felt.
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I love Jack for trying. He is inept in many ways, but the way he loves moves me deeply.
I know, tpe. That says it beautifully -- trying...inept...the way he loves. I keep thinking about Jack lately, the steadfastness of his love. I am so moved, too, so touched by him. What a beautiful character. I wonder if Ennis truly knew what he had. If Jack had really given him reason to not take him for granted, Ennis might have relented...but we'll never know.
kathy
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You all are making me cry. It's like I'm feeling some of the emptiness that Jack must have felt.
I think Ennis also felt that strong emptiness but tried to bury it deep inside him. Perhaps it was buried so deep that even Jack was unable to read Ennis correctly. In any case, that emptiness had to come to the surface in the case of Jack. He needed to breathe.
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I know, tpe. That says it beautifully -- trying...inept...the way he loves. I keep thinking about Jack lately, the steadfastness of his love. I am so moved, too, so touched by him. What a beautiful character. I wonder if Ennis truly knew what he had. If Jack had really given him reason to not take him for granted, Ennis might have relented...but we'll never know.
kathy
A lot of times, we love someone because of their imperfections, no? I think Ennis was attracted to Jack from the start because of Jack's openness and the way Jack wore his heart on his sleeve. But I do think it was only later that Ennis realized what he had -- an by then, it was too late.
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I wonder if Ennis truly knew what he had. If Jack had really given him reason to not take him for granted, Ennis might have relented...butwe'll never know.
kathy
I'm sure Ennis knew, I think that's one of the reasons why he couldn't bring himself to agree to them living together, the fear that it would lead to one of them losing the other, like Rich lost Earl :\'( In his own way, he was trying to protect their love, the tragic irony of course is that despite that (or maybe even because of it) he lost Jack anyway,as well as the lifetime of loving each other that they could have shared :\'( :\'( :\'(
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:\'( I agree CrimsonSky- Ennis, in his own way was trying to protect Jack- so afraid that them being together would bring the death of one or both of them. Tragically and ironically upon discovering those shirts he discovered a fate worse than death. :\'(
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You all are making me cry. It's like I'm feeling some of the emptiness that Jack must have felt.
You too Cowboy?
I'm getting very emotional after reading some of these posts. :\'( :\'( :\'(
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I wonder if Ennis truly knew what he had. If Jack had really given him reason to not take him for granted, Ennis might have relented...butwe'll never know.
kathy
I'm sure Ennis knew, I think that's one of the reasons why he couldn't bring himself to agree to them living together, the fear that it would lead to one of them losing the other, like Rich lost Earl :\'( In his own way, he was trying to protect their love, the tragic irony of course is that despite that (or maybe even because of it) he lost Jack anyway,as well as the lifetime of loving each other that they could have shared :\'( :\'( :\'(
CrimsonSky, I deeply love what you have said here.
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I'm sure Ennis knew, I think that's one of the reasons why he couldn't bring himself to agree to them living together, the fear that it would lead to one of them losing the other, like Rich lost Earl :\'( In his own way, he was trying to protect their love, the tragic irony of course is that despite that (or maybe even because of it) he lost Jack anyway,as well as the lifetime of loving each other that they could have shared :\'( :\'( :\'(
I totally agree with that - beautifully said, CrimsonSky :\'( :\'(
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I often find myself imagining what a life together would have been like for the two of them. Ennis would have remained primarily reserved in his demeanor. However, Jack had a way of making Ennis light up like no one else could. Alma Jr. and Jenny were very much bright spots in Ennis's life, but Jack was the only adult who really made Ennis appear alive. I guess that is why I am so heart broken at the end of the film. When Ennis lost Jack, he lost a big part of himself and we all knew it. :\'(
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I often find myself imagining what a life together would have been like for the two of them. Ennis would have remained primarily reserved in his demeanor. However, Jack had a way of making Ennis light up like no one else could. Alma Jr. and Jenny were very much bright spots in Ennis's life, but Jack was the only adult who really made Ennis appear alive. I guess that is why I am so heart broken at the end of the film. When Ennis lost Jack, he lost a big part of himself and we all knew it. :\'(
But we should also be thankful that Jack's love for Ennis was not entirely in vain, no? Ennis loved and was loved. Even the end cannot dim the beauty of their connection. It casts it in a monumental, tragic light; but it raises it up to the level of a great and unforgettable love.
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It is better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all (W. Shakespeare).
There is a lot of truth in that.
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I totally agree with that - beautifully said, CrimsonSky :\'( :\'(
Thanks NoReins,tpe and LJN :) :-[ It's always a comfort to know that I'm not alone in what I feel about this movie, and about Ennis and Jack, no-one in "real-life" shares, or even undertsands,my obssession ::) :(
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But we should also be thankful that Jack's love for Ennis was not entirely in vain, no? Ennis loved and was loved. Even the end cannot dim the beauty of their connection. It casts it in a monumental, tragic light; but it raises it up to the level of a great and unforgettable love.
So true, and beautifully said, tpe. For better or worse, tragedy is more powerful than happy-ever-after.
I just hope and pray that Jack (listen to me, as if he's "real" -- but that's another discussion) knew for sure Ennis's love at his end...
kathy
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But we should also be thankful that Jack's love for Ennis was not entirely in vain, no? Ennis loved and was loved. Even the end cannot dim the beauty of their connection. It casts it in a monumental, tragic light; but it raises it up to the level of a great and unforgettable love.
So true, and beautifully said, tpe. For better or worse, tragedy is more powerful than happy-ever-after.
I just hope and pray that Jack (listen to me, as if he's "real" -- but that's another discussion) knew for sure Ennis's love at his end...
kathy
I think he knew Ennis loved him. Ennis just struggled to show it at times. :\'( :\'( :\'(
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It is better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all (W. Shakespeare).
There is a lot of truth in that.
It is a very simple truth. You have not lived if you have never loved.
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Thanks NoReins,tpe and LJN :) :-[ It's always a comfort to know that I'm not alone in what I feel about this movie, and about Ennis and Jack, no-one in "real-life" shares, or even undertsands,my obssession ::) :(
Everyone has obsessions. Jack's was his love for Ennis. :)
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So true, and beautifully said, tpe. For better or worse, tragedy is more powerful than happy-ever-after.
I just hope and pray that Jack (listen to me, as if he's "real" -- but that's another discussion) knew for sure Ennis's love at his end...
kathy
I had wondered whether Jack doubted in the end. I personally believe that he didn't. But part of the tragedy is that we will never know for sure.
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I think he knew Ennis loved him. Ennis just struggled to show it at times. :\'( :\'( :\'(
I would like to think that this is the case. Almost 20 years of waiting cannot be overthrown very easily; but then again, could it have been too long to bear in the end?
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I'm quoting from memory here as I haven't watched it in ages so this may not be accurate know about Jack, but , but at the end of GWTW Rhett Butler says something like,"Even the most deathless love can wear out, and mine wore out against your stubbornness."
I don't know about Jack, but surely at times, those dark moments at 3 am when you can't sleep and everything that worries you seems three times as bad as it is in daylight, he must have asked himself if it was all worth it, given that Ennis was never going to change.
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I'm quoting from memory here as I haven't watched it in ages so this may not be accurate know about Jack, but , but at the end of GWTW Rhett Butler says something like,"Even the most deathless love can wear out, and mine wore out against your stubbornness."
I don't know about Jack, but surely at times, those dark moments at 3 am when you can't sleep and everything that worries you seems three times as bad as it is in daylight, he must have asked himself if it was all worth it, given that Ennis was never going to change.
Excellent, excellent point.
I agree with this. Jack was always the optimist, but even the optimist has to have a little doubt in them, somewhere. I don't think Jack would have ever really given up on Ennis even if they did stop seeing eachother, Jack would have always been thinking about Ennis. Whether he had stayed with Lureen, gone off with Randall or just found a new person entirely.
As you said, when it is 3am and you can't sleep, everything that worries you feels ten times worse and I could not agree with that more. It would have been moments like this when Jack did the most thinking. The realistic thinking. The "What if this never happens?" thinking. Things like that are always much harder on an optimist because it is forcing you to accept something that isn't the best for everyone involved. It isn't solving or helping anything. No light at the end of the tunnel. But I think that in the end Jack having a realization like this would only keep him going for his goal, and if he had not died, hopefully reached that goal one day.
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Ennis was never going to change.
Another tragedy is that Ennis did change - it just took Jacks's death to do it. As Jonie Mitchell sang in Yellow taxi -"you don't know what you got til its gone".
From Shakespeare to Jonie Mitchell. Oh dear! ;D
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"Funny how potent cheap music can be" - quotation, or misquotation, from Noel Coward, True of the words of popular songs, which can be as effective in some circumstances as great poetry.
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I still think Jack should have given Ennis an ultimatum, waited for it to sink in (I don't think it would've taken long) .I think that last meeting scared the crap out of Ennis. If only Jack would've had the chance to meet Ennis at Pine Creek I believe Jack could have finally convinced Ennis that it was all or nothing. The thought of loosing Jack forever after Jack's words during the last fight would've done it I think. Sadly we'll never know.
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I still think Jack should have given Ennis an ultimatum, waited for it to sink in (I don't think it would've taken long) .I think that last meeting scared the crap out of Ennis. If only Jack would've had the chance to meet Ennis at Pine Creek I believe Jack could have finally convinced Ennis that it was all or nothing. The thought of loosing Jack forever after Jack's words during the last fight would've done it I think. Sadly we'll never know.
I like to think that, too, that at the November meeting at Pine Creek, Ennis would have finally come around, faced with actually losing Jack, and started to let himself work through his fears, let Jack help him work through his fears. Jack may even have called or written (a letter, not a postcard) in response to Ennis's postcard saying, I really don't want to get together again if you're just going to leave me again, and again, and again...
kathy
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(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.elcomercioperu.com.pe%2Fespeciales%2FOscar2006%2Fimagenes%2Fservat%2Factorreparto%2Fgyllenhaalarchivo.jpg&hash=ad01338bfbe8754cf78f6a167d28710095192240)
Faith lights us, even through the Grave,
being the Evidence of Things not seen.
And this is the Comfort of the Good,
that the Grave cannot hold them,
and that they live as soon as they die.
For Death is no more than a Turning
of us over from Time to Eternity.
Death then, being the Way and Condition of Life,
we cannot love to live, if we cannot bear to die.
(William Penn)
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Thomas, I don't know what to say. It's perfect. That's all. :\'(
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Thomas, I don't know what to say. It's perfect. That's all. :\'(
Same here.! :\'(
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i just jumped on this thread strolling around - i cannot stop sobbing.
such wonderful posts, such beautiful answers and even more questions to my feelings ...
how can you bare a situation like this? in 20 years time (16), from time to time, never talking about anything? never expressing the slightest feelings? never trying to find a way?
i had a little story, not even close to j&e of course, it lasted for about 6 years - seen each other twice a year; me trying to do what i could to bring light and futur into it, the other just taking, refusing to accept that there were deeper emotions between us. after trying and trying i didn't come to a year's appointment; i couldn't stand the idea of being left alone again any more, not achieving what i yearned to have.
took me quite a while; but was good for me and my emotional health...
until i came in touch with BBM....
but i know YOU are there - help me get out of this...
tizi
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Beautiful Thomas :\'(
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Hi Tizi,
Their story is our story. I'm sorry things didn't work out the way you wanted them to but you had the strength to do right by yourself and that's something to be proud of. ^f^
This reminded me of something I had been thinking about: in 20 years time (16), from time to time, never talking about anything? never expressing the slightest feelings? never trying to find a way? I know as one who is expressive that it is hard when you can't be open. Not only was Jack not being validated or hearing what he needed/wanted to hear he was supressed in that he couldn't tell Ennis how he felt- good or bad. Jack held a fear that if he issued an ultimatum he'd lose Ennis and on the flip side if he expressed his feelings (verbally) then he'd risk scaring Ennis off. He had no outlet to share the joy and the pain that this relationship brought him-not even with the one who was making him feel both. :(
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Faith lights us, even through the Grave,
being the Evidence of Things not seen.
And this is the Comfort of the Good,
that the Grave cannot hold them,
and that they live as soon as they die.
For Death is no more than a Turning
of us over from Time to Eternity.
Death then, being the Way and Condition of Life,
we cannot love to live, if we cannot bear to die.
(William Penn)
Beautiul poem tpe :\'( :\'( :\'(
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Hi Tizi,
Their story is our story. I'm sorry things didn't work out the way you wanted them to but you had the strength to do right by yourself and that's something to be proud of. ^f^
This reminded me of something I had been thinking about: in 20 years time (16), from time to time, never talking about anything? never expressing the slightest feelings? never trying to find a way? I know as one who is expressive that it is hard when you can't be open. Not only was Jack not being validated or hearing what he needed/wanted to hear he was supressed in that he couldn't tell Ennis how he felt- good or bad. Jack held a fear that if he issued an ultimatum he'd lose Ennis and on the flip side if he expressed his feelings (verbally) then he'd risk scaring Ennis off. He had no outlet to share the joy and the pain that this relationship brought him-not even with the one who was making him feel both. :(
Oh God, you're absolutely right...poor Jack... :-\\
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Hi Tizi,
Their story is our story. I'm sorry things didn't work out the way you wanted them to but you had the strength to do right by yourself and that's something to be proud of. ^f^
This reminded me of something I had been thinking about: in 20 years time (16), from time to time, never talking about anything? never expressing the slightest feelings? never trying to find a way? I know as one who is expressive that it is hard when you can't be open. Not only was Jack not being validated or hearing what he needed/wanted to hear he was supressed in that he couldn't tell Ennis how he felt- good or bad. Jack held a fear that if he issued an ultimatum he'd lose Ennis and on the flip side if he expressed his feelings (verbally) then he'd risk scaring Ennis off. He had no outlet to share the joy and the pain that this relationship brought him-not even with the one who was making him feel both. :(
Very true Michelle :\'( :\'( :\'(
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Hi Tizi,
Their story is our story. I'm sorry things didn't work out the way you wanted them to but you had the strength to do right by yourself and that's something to be proud of. ^f^
This reminded me of something I had been thinking about: in 20 years time (16), from time to time, never talking about anything? never expressing the slightest feelings? never trying to find a way? I know as one who is expressive that it is hard when you can't be open. Not only was Jack not being validated or hearing what he needed/wanted to hear he was supressed in that he couldn't tell Ennis how he felt- good or bad. Jack held a fear that if he issued an ultimatum he'd lose Ennis and on the flip side if he expressed his feelings (verbally) then he'd risk scaring Ennis off. He had no outlet to share the joy and the pain that this relationship brought him-not even with the one who was making him feel both. :(
So, so true, LJN. It's so tragic. Not just Ennis, that is obvious -- but Jack, the incredible capacity for love he had, stifled by Ennis really. Exactly as you said.
kathy
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This is a pretty good and very practical thread...I will be posting here, methinks!!
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Everyone - you must see this! It is brilliant. A slow motion version of the flashback scene. Long, slow, and so sad, so well done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi6i8bfwV-w
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Thanks friends, for all the wonderful posts.
tizi17, have no regrets. As with Jack, you tried all you could. Having stopped trying does not lessen this to any degree. Be at peace. The dream does not die.
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Everyone - you must see this! It is brilliant. A slow motion version of the flashback scene. Long, slow, and so sad, so well done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi6i8bfwV-w
Sorry to go OT but just wanted to mention that the music here is (I'm told) the music that Annie Proulx was listening to when she wrote the dozy embrace scene, which to me makes it that much more poignant.
To get back on topic, if you follow the original short story, it says: "Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be."
That Jack would keep going back over and over knowing that this might be all that Ennis could ever give him says a great deal, I think, about the strength of his love.
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This is a pretty good and very practical thread...I will be posting here, methinks!!
hey - don't i know you? being back again? welcome! :h)
tizi
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That Jack would keep going back over and over knowing that this might be all that Ennis could ever give him says a great deal, I think, about the strength of his love.
Ok...I'm crying now. :\'(
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Everyone - you must see this! It is brilliant. A slow motion version of the flashback scene. Long, slow, and so sad, so well done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi6i8bfwV-w
So beautiful . . . and sad :\'( :\'( :\'(
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That Jack would keep going back over and over knowing that this might be all that Ennis could ever give him says a great deal, I think, about the strength of his love.
:\'( Beautifully said. And I think if Ennis had said yes to him after all of those years it would have been worth it to Jack.
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In my flakier moments I can see Jack as an analogue of the knight and Ennis as the lady in the courtly love tradition, where the knight meets the lady's demands, often by going far away for long periods, and risking all sorts of dangers, and returns hoping for some small acknowledgement of his achievement, even just a smile.
That's what Jack is hoping for when he arrives after the message about the divorce, I think; yes, a life with Ennis but first an acknowledgement of his own persistance and the strength of his love.
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In my flakier moments I can see Jack as an analogue of the knight and Ennis as the lady in the courtly love tradition, where the knight meets the lady's demands, often by going far away for long periods, and risking all sorts of dangers, and returns hoping for some small acknowledgement of his achievement, even just a smile.
That's what Jack is hoping for when he arrives after the message about the divorce, I think; yes, a life with Ennis but first an acknowledgement of his own persistance and the strength of his love.
I don't think this is overly flaky -- I can see this analogy. It's a great idea, the courtly love tradition as pertains to Ennis and Jack.
But boy, just talking about that scene when Jack comes to Ennis after Ennis's divorce...just breaks my heart. So, speaking of this, I wonder how Ennis conveyed the divorce information to Jack. Jack said, "I got your message about the divorce." Then when he says, "So here I am," oh god. He is so open and vulnerable there -- kind of holds his arms out, giving himself to Ennis, "here I am." And gets turned away...
kathy
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That Jack would keep going back over and over knowing that this might be all that Ennis could ever give him says a great deal, I think, about the strength of his love.
...and his quiet desperation.
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In my flakier moments I can see Jack as an analogue of the knight and Ennis as the lady in the courtly love tradition, where the knight meets the lady's demands, often by going far away for long periods, and risking all sorts of dangers, and returns hoping for some small acknowledgement of his achievement, even just a smile.
That's what Jack is hoping for when he arrives after the message about the divorce, I think; yes, a life with Ennis but first an acknowledgement of his own persistance and the strength of his love.
It is a tragedy that he never got it. That was perhaps why he remembered the dozy embrace best of all -- it was the closest Ennis ever got to a quiet assurance of that love.
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I don't think this is overly flaky -- I can see this analogy. It's a great idea, the courtly love tradition as pertains to Ennis and Jack.
But boy, just talking about that scene when Jack comes to Ennis after Ennis's divorce...just breaks my heart. So, speaking of this, I wonder how Ennis conveyed the divorce information to Jack. Jack said, "I got your message about the divorce." Then when he says, "So here I am," oh god. He is so open and vulnerable there -- kind of holds his arms out, giving himself to Ennis, "here I am." And gets turned away...
kathy
I do think it was that moment of vulnerabilty that was so devastating. There was nowhere to hide the loss of face and dignity. It broke Jack.
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I don't think this is overly flaky -- I can see this analogy. It's a great idea, the courtly love tradition as pertains to Ennis and Jack.
But boy, just talking about that scene when Jack comes to Ennis after Ennis's divorce...just breaks my heart. So, speaking of this, I wonder how Ennis conveyed the divorce information to Jack. Jack said, "I got your message about the divorce." Then when he says, "So here I am," oh god. He is so open and vulnerable there -- kind of holds his arms out, giving himself to Ennis, "here I am." And gets turned away...
kathy
I do think it was that moment of vulnerabilty that was so devastating. There was nowhere to hide the loss of face and dignity. It broke Jack.
Especially after all this time, settling for 'scraps'. How he must have felt with the idea that finally his heart would be fed and his dream would come true. This was an especially long and brutal fall from the height of that hope to the devastation of the reality (the rejection). [And in my opinion, this was masterfully portrayed by Jake Gyllenhaal]
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It was beautifully done. You can see the anticipation in jack's face -- smacking his lips almost. A hungry eagerness. And then, the fall. He tried to do it with grace. Even when he wept inside the truck was so restrained.
You can feel the intense love and frustration in those details.
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I should have known better than to stop by here while at work. You guys are killing me. :\'(
I loved the analogy WW and the posts about the divorce? :\'(
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I've been trying to read this and other threads from the early stages. They are indeed very moving. I had forgotten how moving some of the early posts and threads have been and remain...
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They stand the test of time Thomas! O0
Undoubtedly because our instinctive responses to this love story don't change.
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That scene is such an illustration of the proverb "It's better to travel hopefully than to arrive." Jack has such high hopes - we've all been there, but few of us have had our hopes dashed so totally, so immediately, so finally.
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If there is anything to describe Ennis's love for Jack, it is faith.
If there is anything to describe Jack's love for Ennis, it is hope.
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it's the worst for me.
i could understand letting be after BBM - the marriage and all.
i understood even the leaving again after 4 years - children and all.
but no! never do i understand why this! everything was open - but probably not ennis'mind.... still so sorry... despite all the fanfic things.
tizi
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It wouldn't break our hearts so much if we didn't truly believe that Jack loves Ennis.
But we do and so it does.
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it's the worst for me.
i could understand letting be after BBM - the marriage and all.
i understood even the leaving again after 4 years - children and all.
but no! never do i understand why this! everything was open - but probably not ennis'mind.... still so sorry... despite all the fanfic things.
tizi
If I had been Jack i would have moved to be hearer Ennis once he was divorced. Not necesarily the same town - but near. Then start a daily letter campain. But it aint goin to be that way.
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yeah, well i think we all would have our wonderful ideas how to help them along - i love your letter idea..! many fanfic have tried to, yes, it's nice to read some of them - but it ain't. and that hurts... you know a bit like the old titanic thing: you KNOW that there will be that da... iceberg - and every time you think: why don't they ....
tizi
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I find it a testament to the strength of Jack's love for Ennis that he did let him be after the divorce. It broke him emotionally, but the fact that he didn't give Ennis some sort of ultimatum at that point showed me the extent of the love he felt towards him. It was easier for him to wait for Ennis to make the moves in their relationship than to run the risk of losing him altogether. Poor, poor Jack. :(
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yeah, well i think we all would have our wonderful ideas how to help them along - i love your letter idea..! many fanfic have tried to, yes, it's nice to read some of them - but it ain't. and that hurts... you know a bit like the old titanic thing: you KNOW that there will be that da... iceberg - and every time you think: why don't they ....
tizi
Thats what I dislike about a lot of the fanfic (not all). Its like, say Titanic, a long voyage, near miss with an iceberg, everybody arrives safely in New York. Booooring!
The thing about BBM is that it restores the "weepy" to center stage as an art form. Great. Far better than all that candyfloss and mindless violence over the last few years.
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That is why there is faith and hope. Both go beyond life and death. So it is with the love of Jack for Ennis. It had moved beyond Jack's death and had at last found a home in Ennis.
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That is why there is faith and hope. Both go beyond life and death. So it is with the love of Jack for Ennis. It had moved beyond Jack's death and had at last found a home in Ennis.
I could not agree more.
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I am of the beleif that Jack would'nt have lost Ennis if he gave the ultimatum. Even after the divorce if Jack would've given Ennis the impression that he was'nt going to wait around wishing and hoping for him to come around instead of just "I'll see you next month then" , maybe Ennis would have had second thoughts about letting him just drive off like that. After all it was Ennis who said "aint no reins on this one".That says to me that despite all his dumbass paranoia, he loved and wanted Jack. But I know Jack had his own fears. I think he underestimated Ennis's desire for him. He should've called his bluff and took that chance. By agreeing to just leave like he did he continued to give Ennis all the upper hand in the relationship. He never tested Ennis's strong feelins of love for him but instead let Ennis run the show. He was too araid of loosnig him. When Ennis realizes that he no longer had Jack ever again, coupled with thoghts about Jack moving on with someone else, I beleive it woul've been Ennis showing up in Texas out of the blue to find JACK.! Don't think he could've lived without him for too long. As always this my humble opinion.
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I agree with everything you said here, aintfoolin. I think the poem by jessi posted on the pics with poems thread says it all. Ennis wanted to make up with Jack and could have done so with a little phone call, but Ennis couldn't talk freely on the phone. He was a shy, self-conscious man. He needed to be face-to-face with the person he was talking to, so he waited, intending to make up with Jack in November when they saw each other. Maybe he was actually going to profess his love for Jack at that time. However, fate has a way of taking things out of our hands sometimes. There's no doubt in my mind that Jack would have been anywhere Ennis wanted him to be and with bells on. You're oh, so right about Jack letting Ennis run the show. If only Jack had been more forceful, he could have got what he really wanted out of Ennis -- no doubt in my mind about that. However, we all are what we are. Hindsight is 20/20. However, it's too late now that Jack is gone. We voyeurs just have to accept what is/was.
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I do love this thread very much.
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But boy, just talking about that scene when Jack comes to Ennis after Ennis's divorce...just breaks my heart. So, speaking of this, I wonder how Ennis conveyed the divorce information to Jack. Jack said, "I got your message about the divorce." Then when he says, "So here I am," oh god. He is so open and vulnerable there -- kind of holds his arms out, giving himself to Ennis, "here I am." And gets turned away...
kathy
I do think it was that moment of vulnerabilty that was so devastating. There was nowhere to hide the loss of face and dignity. It broke Jack.
It broke Jack...you're so right. A really strong indication to him that even now that Ennis is "free," he, Jack, still can't have him. He is one strong man, as you said, nowhere to hide...but he calmly drove away and more than 14 hours just for release.
It was so sad, too, that he said, "I thought that meant..." Then the dawning realization in his eyes. Ennis says he's really sorry, and that Jack knows he is...but that's not good enough. What if the girls hadn't been there? At least they could have talked it out, and also let their bodies do the talking...but in the end, Jack still wouldn't "have" Ennis. Unless he was really persuasive somehow.
kathy
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One does have to wonder how it would have played out if the girls hadn't been there. I certainly don't think Ennis would have run off with Jack, but the sting of the disappointment might have been lessened. If only for the moment. :-\\
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Ennis KNEW he was hurting Jack to because when he saw the hurt in Jack's eyes He wispered his name softly as he stepped towards him as if to comfort him and THAT would'nt have been good enough either. For some ungodly (not including the girls) reason he just lets Jack drive off. Seems to me he should have learned his lesson the first time he let Jack just drive off but that's Ennis. He can thank his lucky stars that Jack loved and understood him..... but this devastated Jack.I personally kept waitng for him to call Jack back and say "wait here we'll talk later" or something but he did'nt. Unbeleivable.
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It broke Jack...you're so right. A really strong indication to him that even now that Ennis is "free," he, Jack, still can't have him. He is one strong man, as you said, nowhere to hide...but he calmly drove away and more than 14 hours just for release.
It was so said, too, that he said, "I thought that meant..." Then the dawning realization in his eyes. Ennis says he's really sorry, and that Jack knows he is...but that's not good enough. What if the girls hadn't been there? At least they could have talked it out, and also let their bodies do the talking...but in the end, Jack still wouldn't "have" Ennis. Unless he was really persuasive somehow.
kathy
A clear indication of Jack's love for Ennis is that he didn't break up with Ennis there and then. Few people in real life would bear such humiliation with such equanimity. You have to love someone very deeply in order to do what he did at that instance: nothing.
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One does have to wonder how it would have played out if the girls hadn't been there. I certainly don't think Ennis would have run off with Jack, but the sting of the disappointment might have been lessened. If only for the moment. :-\\
The presence of the kids must have acted as a deterrent to a "scene". Although I doubt that a scene would have occured without the kids present. As I had said in the last post, Jack loved Ennis too much to do anything drastic at that moment. I believe that the presence of other peoeple there and then did not change much.
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All he had to do was ask Jack to wait - he had the girls only for the weekend and Jack must have been prepared to stay, or could have gone on to Kightning flat, presumably the excuse he's given Lureen, and come back in the week when Ennis was alone.
Except in terms of the plot, this scene doesn't make sense - even Ennis surely couldn't have just stood there while Jack drove away?
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Ennis KNEW he was hurting Jack to because when he saw the hurt in Jack's eyes He wispered his name softly as he stepped towards him as if to comfort him and THAT would'nt have been good enough either. For some ungodly (not including the girls) reason he just lets Jack drive off. Seems to me he should have learned his lesson the first time he let Jack just drive off but that's Ennis. He can thank his lucky stars that Jack loved and understood him..... but this devastated Jack.I personally kept waitng for him to call Jack back and say "wait here we'll talk later" or something but he did'nt. Unbeleivable.
I had just said that the presence of the kids probably did not affect much -- perhaps I spoke in terms of Jack's reaction to the humiliation. But I wonder if Ennis had been a bit more understanding and demonstrative. Yes, I think he knew what Jack was going through and seemed like he wanted to reach out. True, Ennis is not that demonstrative by nature, but there is the great exception: the reunion kiss. Perhpas he would have reached out to Jack more effectively if the children were not present there and then (say, Ennis still had to pick them up.)
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Or had Ennis been on his own that weekend, perhaps it would have been a bit of a re-enactment of the "It ain't gonna be like that/no reins on this" moment, which at least let Jack know that Ennis cared for him, just didn't feel that he could be with him. Instead it was total humiliation, disappointment, defeat. I truly believe it takes a deep deep heart to come back from that and continue to offer up that no pressure, unconditional, 'I'll take what you're able to give me' love. I adore that sweet wounded boy...
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Very good point, FlwrChild. The earlier scene you mentioned is a good model for what could have been, although I don't know if Jack's humiliation would have been less devastating. Ennis was helpless -- he didn't realize how Jack interpreted the divorce, and now he is in a most awkward situation. Still, it would have been nice if he had forced Jack to stay. Perhaps the wound would have healed a little if they were together.
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All of their wounds would have healed if they could have found a way to be together.
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I think Jack's love for Ennis was not too intrusive. He justed wanted to see Ennis 2 or maybe 3 times a year. True, he really wanted more, but I think he was patient and tried to make do with what he had.
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Quite right tpe. Though I think "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" is a very telling declaration. He is not able to compartmentalize his relationship with Ennis, to separate it from his heart while they're apart.
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It's gotten worse, too, as time has passed - while there was hope in the early days, later it must become evident that they are getting older and their options are becoming more limited, at which point Jack's consciousness of the futility of his feelings must haunt him.
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Yes, I do think it was hope that was the being gradually worn down over the years. Jack seemed to have had a lot of it in the early years. He MUST have had a lot of it -- considering it lasted him nearly 20 years...
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Absolutly right. 20 years is a long, long time to wait for someone. Jack's love and patience had to be strong for him to go along with this for so long. But he had limited options except for an ultimatum. In the last scene when he's older he finally realizes that maybe he's being played in a sense and calls Ennis on all of it. His love is so full of passion and so was his anger. and it was this passion that spilled over in the words he used in that fight. He was fighting for his life because he loved Ennis so much more than ever at that point.If the divorce scene is the one that broke Jack , this I feel this is the scene that finally broke Ennis. Faced with the possibility of loosing Jack forever( which by the way is doubtful IMO, but Ennis was scared out of his mind about it) all Jack had to do at this point was to give the ultimatum.
Ennis would have come around rather than loose Jack forever. When he was crying in Jack's arms he was holding on for dear life. The acting in this scene from JG and HL was excellence personified.IMHO
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Ennis would have come around rather than loose Jack forever. When he was crying in Jack's arms he was holding on for dear life. The acting in this scene from JG and HL was excellence personified.IMHO
If Jack only got this assurance, I am sure it would have been enough to sustain him.
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Or had Ennis been on his own that weekend, perhaps it would have been a bit of a re-enactment of the "It ain't gonna be like that/no reins on this" moment, which at least let Jack know that Ennis cared for him, just didn't feel that he could be with him. Instead it was total humiliation, disappointment, defeat. I truly believe it takes a deep deep heart to come back from that and continue to offer up that no pressure, unconditional, 'I'll take what you're able to give me' love. I adore that sweet wounded boy...
Me, too. So much. He had such capacity for love and forgiveness, and patience. Sweet wounded boy indeed. Just breaks my heart. I do believe that he believed Ennis really truly did love him. Maybe the first other person who really had. He knew it, but knew he had to "handle" Ennis right.
kathy
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Absolutly right. 20 years is a long, long time to wait for someone. Jack's love and patience had to be strong for him to go along with this for so long. But he had limited options except for an ultimatum. In the last scene when he's older he finally realizes that maybe he's being played in a sense and calls Ennis on all of it. His love is so full of passion and so was his anger. and it was this passion that spilled over in the words he used in that fight. He was fighting for his life because he loved Ennis so much more than ever at that point.If the divorce scene is the one that broke Jack , this I feel this is the scene that finally broke Ennis. Faced with the possibility of loosing Jack forever( which by the way is doubtful IMO, but Ennis was scared out of his mind about it) all Jack had to do at this point was to give the ultimatum. Ennis would have come around rather than loose Jack forever. When he was crying in Jack's arms he was holding on for dear life. The acting in this scene from JG and HL was excellence personified.IMHO
This is excellent, what you said, all of it, and particularly the bolded. So, so sad, this scene, but so beautiful -- the passion in Jack's anger, the passion in Ennis's breaking down.
kathy
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Thats what I dislike about a lot of the fanfic (not all). Its like, say Titanic, a long voyage, near miss with an iceberg, everybody arrives safely in New York. Booooring!
The thing about BBM is that it restores the "weepy" to center stage as an art form. Great. Far better than all that candyfloss and mindless violence over the last few years.
I love this, the weepy. Yes, a fine art form. It's real, this kind of tragedy; it can change us, unlike a sweet HEA story -- though those have their place. And they do not have to be boring -- there can be lots of conflict and jeopardy, but it gets resolved. Yet so much of life is not resolved, so a story like this is an important reflection of life.
But I totally understand people's motivations for wanting to write and read fanfic without Jack's death.
kathy
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Or had Ennis been on his own that weekend, perhaps it would have been a bit of a re-enactment of the "It ain't gonna be like that/no reins on this" moment, which at least let Jack know that Ennis cared for him, just didn't feel that he could be with him. Instead it was total humiliation, disappointment, defeat. I truly believe it takes a deep deep heart to come back from that and continue to offer up that no pressure, unconditional, 'I'll take what you're able to give me' love. I adore that sweet wounded boy...
Me, too. So much. He had such capacity for love and forgiveness, and patience. Sweet wounded boy indeed. Just breaks my heart. I do believe that he believed Ennis really truly did love him. Maybe the first other person who really had. He knew it, but knew he had to "handle" Ennis right.
kathy
"Handling" Ennis was quite a feat. If Jack did lie many times (see related thread), it was to protect the relationship. He knew what Ennis couldn't handle. He gauged the threshold quite closely.
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Thats what I dislike about a lot of the fanfic (not all). Its like, say Titanic, a long voyage, near miss with an iceberg, everybody arrives safely in New York. Booooring!
The thing about BBM is that it restores the "weepy" to center stage as an art form. Great. Far better than all that candyfloss and mindless violence over the last few years.
I love this, the weepy. Yes, a fine art form. It's real, this kind of tragedy; it can change us, unlike a sweet HEA story -- though those have their place. And they do not have to be boring -- there can be lots of conflict and jeopardy, but it gets resolved. Yet so much of life is not resolved, so a story like this is an important reflection of life.
But I totally understand people's motivations for wanting to write and read fanfic without Jack's death.
kathy
I think that is the strength of the short story -- a strength which the movie kept intact: that it is a mirror of true life, wherein most things are fated to remain unresolved.
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It's also why tragedy lasts and happy-ever-after froth doesn't. BBM is a tragedy in the great tradition, caused by charatcer flaws that in other circumstances might not matter, and as inevitable as, to quote Scarlett O'Hara, death and taxes.
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Jack's love is complex but very human in its intensity. In a sense, his great love for Ennis is his tragic flaw.
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Absolutly right. 20 years is a long, long time to wait for someone. Jack's love and patience had to be strong for him to go along with this for so long. But he had limited options except for an ultimatum. In the last scene when he's older he finally realizes that maybe he's being played in a sense and calls Ennis on all of it. His love is so full of passion and so was his anger. and it was this passion that spilled over in the words he used in that fight. He was fighting for his life because he loved Ennis so much more than ever at that point.If the divorce scene is the one that broke Jack , this I feel this is the scene that finally broke Ennis. Faced with the possibility of loosing Jack forever( which by the way is doubtful IMO, but Ennis was scared out of his mind about it) all Jack had to do at this point was to give the ultimatum.
Ennis would have come around rather than loose Jack forever. When he was crying in Jack's arms he was holding on for dear life. The acting in this scene from JG and HL was excellence personified.IMHO
Wow! I think you have just pierced my heart where this scene is concerned. As angry as Jack appeared in this scene, it was obvious that he was pouring out his heart to Ennis. Jack's words may have hurt Ennis in a way, but there had to be some part of Ennis that realized he was dealing with someone who truly loved him and had put up with a lot of heartache just to be with him. Maybe part of the reason for Ennis's emotional breakdown was that he finally admitted in his heart that this relationship was never just "a thing" where Jack was concerned.
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CSC I think that had a good deal to do with Ennis' breakdown- he knew deep down inside what it was doing to them both but hearing it made it real- once it was out in the open and verbalized there wasn't a way to ignore it or push it down inside- it's harder to quiet a voice when it's not your own.
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He Knew that if he could'nt stand it anymore surely Jack whom he loves so dearly has really had enough of his half-stepping.Jack exposed the part of Ennis that he denied to himself for 20 years. He had no choice but to come clean with it. I love the character of Ennis and in alot of ways identify with him..To use his own philosophy against him,He was too busy standing it instead of trying to fix it.In the end he was forced to stand it. too sad.
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It's also why tragedy lasts and happy-ever-after froth doesn't. BBM is a tragedy in the great tradition, caused by charatcer flaws that in other circumstances might not matter, and as inevitable as, to quote Scarlett O'Hara, death and taxes.
Certainly if this had been a HEA story, we probably would not still be here talking about it.
kathy
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CSC I think that had a good deal to do with Ennis' breakdown- he knew deep down inside what it was doing to them both but hearing it made it real- once it was out in the open and verbalized there wasn't a way to ignore it or push it down inside- it's harder to quiet a voice when it's not your own.
Excellent, LJN. So true. They had had their bickering, which we saw some of, but I doubt ever words like this before. I'm glad Jack finally had it, and said all this...and it would have moved their relationship along finally...if they had seen each other in November. Except from the spring to November is a long time, and once Jack had let that cork fly, he might have gone home and started thinking differently about Ennis, and not shown up in November anyway. But the other scenario is that they might have actually talked on the phone between the spring and November, both knowing things were not status quo anymore.
kathy
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I am of the beleif that Jack would'nt have lost Ennis if he gave the ultimatum. Even after the divorce if Jack would've given Ennis the impression that he was'nt going to wait around wishing and hoping for him to come around instead of just "I'll see you next month then" , maybe Ennis would have had second thoughts about letting him just drive off like that. After all it was Ennis who said "aint no reins on this one".That says to me that despite all his dumbass paranoia, he loved and wanted Jack. But I know Jack had his own fears. I think he underestimated Ennis's desire for him. He should've called his bluff and took that chance. By agreeing to just leave like he did he continued to give Ennis all the upper hand in the relationship. He never tested Ennis's strong feelins of love for him but instead let Ennis run the show. He was too araid of loosnig him. When Ennis realizes that he no longer had Jack ever again, coupled with thoghts about Jack moving on with someone else, I beleive it woul've been Ennis showing up in Texas out of the blue to find JACK.! Don't think he could've lived without him for too long. As always this my humble opinion.
This is good, aintfoolin. Why Jack continued to play by Ennis's rules. At first, I totally understand it, that Jack was respecting Ennis's very real fears. But after 20 years, it seems that wasn't valid anymore. He could have given Ennis an ultimatum, and that would have indeed moved them along. But to think that Jack might have felt he loved Ennis more than Ennis loved him...that is so sad.
kathy
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IMO after 20 years of their love, Jack's frustration has become so deep to be turned into anger, if Ennis had given him an answer after his "The truth is... sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" maybe his reaction to Ennis would have been different in their last talk.After 20 years Jack deserved more than Ennis silence.In Jack's mind he's the one of the two who loves more and he wants more, he deserves more. He has hoped for 20 years that Ennis gave him what desired more without never getting it,I think that whoever would have thought about not being loved enough,I'd have thought it, a little sign from Ennis and Jack would have expected November without many problems
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You are so right about this , He let Ennis make all the rules in the relationship, partly because of his own fears of loosing him if he pushed too far in the beginning. But 20 years? that's a long time to be on as Jack stated "a short leash" . But he stood it as long as he could, a testament to his undying patience with this man. Then it became like trying to "see the Pope" under these rules and he simply laid out all his feelings about it on the line. He wanted more time with Ennis, not just scraps and short pieces of time either He wanted forever. And CSC, I agree with you too that when Jack got done, Ennis knew he meant business. He realized that this was'nt a game to Jack and that Jack was sick and tired of playing it. He had sacrificed too much, and invested so much time. Wanted that sweet life he dreamed of and was gonna get it with, or( maybe in Ennis's mind ),without Ennis. It was this realization that broke Ennis. Had to admit to himself that he could'nt live without Jack. And yes those words from Jack hurt like hell to Ennis but he needed to hear them . It scared Ennis shitless. Jack had finally forced his hand , and in the process stripped Ennis bare. There was NO PLACE to hide anymore. A . major wake up call if ever there was one. I agree with a comment earlier that at that point Jack could have gotten what he wanted out of Ennis with a final ultimatum. Always IMHO.
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You are so right about this , He let Ennis make all the rules in the relationship, partly because of his own fears of loosing him if he pushed too far in the beginning. But 20 years? that's a long time to be on as Jack stated "a short leash" . But he stood it as long as he could, a testament to his undying patience with this man. Then it became like trying to "see the Pope" under these rules and he simply laid out all his feelings about it on the line. He wanted more time with Ennis, not just scraps and short pieces of time either He wanted forever. And CSC, I agree with you too that when Jack got done, Ennis knew he meant business. He realized that this was'nt a game to Jack and that Jack was sick and tired of playing it. He had sacrificed too much, and invested so much time. Wanted that sweet life he dreamed of and was gonna get it with, or( maybe in Ennis's mind ),without Ennis. It was this realization that broke Ennis. Had to admit to himself that he could'nt live without Jack. And yes those words from Jack hurt like hell to Ennis but he needed to hear them . It scared Ennis shitless. Jack had finally forced his hand , and in the process stripped Ennis bare. There was NO PLACE to hide anymore. A . major wake up call if ever there was one. I agree with a comment earlier that at that point Jack could have gotten what he wanted out of Ennis with a final ultimatum. Always IMHO.
So true, aintfoolin. This could have turned out differently from this point forward, if only... I would have liked to have been in Ennis's head driving home from that trip, and the next months -- wonder if he finally knew he had to make some changes. Too bad they didn't talk on the telephone -- presumably they didn't. Presumably that was the last contact Ennis had with Jack...and then the postcard was returned.
kathy
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The fact that Jack didn't inform Ennis about his plans to move on with someone else can be interpreted in many ways. Perhaps Jack himself was unsure of how to break the news. Did he intend not to tell Ennis for as long as possible? After all, Jack probably remembered Ennis's threat about things not known and those he would come to know. But how could Jack have thought that he could keep this a secret from Ennis indefinitely? Perhaps he was indeed forcing Ennis's hand. We shall never really know for sure. It may be a strange, rather twisted manifestation of Jack's love -- that he did not say anything.
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Interesting point you bring up tpe. Unfortunately the story's tragic ending prevents us from ever knowing what Jack's intentions were regarding Ennis. So many possible directions could have taken place after their final meeting. Jack was definitely making his true feelings toward Ennis known. However, we don't know if Jack was really going to take a step forward without Ennis. The answer would have been in the postcard...had Jack lived to answer it. :\'(
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I suppose Jack could have done what his father siad he intended to - left Lureen and moved to Lightning Flat with Randall, if Randall wanted to go with him. He could have replied to the postcard simply saying that he wasn;t going to come, and Ennis would never have known where he was - he had no reason to go to Lightning Flat himself.
More likely, though, IMO, is that the Randall-and-Jack-at-LF scenario is Jak's invention or a spur-of-the-moment suggestion made when his father was bugging him about all his promises to bring Ennis and make something out of the ranch. I don't know whether he would ever have seriously considered it.
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We will never know for sure which direction the relationship would have gone, so most of us will choose the best scenario, Jack meeting Ennis at Pine Creek and Ennis agreeing to the life that they both want together. It's a dream but a nice one anyway.
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More likely, though, IMO, is that the Randall-and-Jack-at-LF scenario is Jak's invention or a spur-of-the-moment suggestion made when his father was bugging him about all his promises to bring Ennis and make something out of the ranch. I don't know whether he would ever have seriously considered it.
Lets face it, in the story Jack had been ridin' more than bulls in the four years they were apart, he was a sex tourist in Mexaco in the film. Randall was dropping hints the size of house bricks to Jack - and he did not say no. Who would to a bearded available hunk with access to a cabin ?
Jack was going for the sweet life with randall and Ennis had had 20 years to s*** or get off the pot.
The tragedy is Ennis only realised after what a fool he had been when he heard it from Jacks Father.
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I choose to believe that most of Jack's adventures away from Ennis were an empty substitute. Perhaps Randall meant a little more. After all Jack chose to disguise his affair with Randall by stating involvement with LaShawn. Jack somehow knew that Ennis probably couldn't handle the knowledge of legitimate competition involving another man. Ennis pretty much said so at their final meeting.
I like welshwitch's angle that perhaps Jack mentioned Randall just to get his dad of his back. In my heart, Jack loved Ennis too much to just discard a 20 year investment. Don't get me wrong...Randall was a legitimate contender for Jack's affection...just not the likely winner.
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We will never know for sure which direction the relationship would have gone, so most of us will choose the best scenario, Jack meeting Ennis at Pine Creek and Ennis agreeing to the life that they both want together. It's a dream but a nice one anyway.
Sounds nice to me <^( <^( <^(
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We will never know for sure which direction the relationship would have gone, so most of us will choose the best scenario, Jack meeting Ennis at Pine Creek and Ennis agreeing to the life that they both want together. It's a dream but a nice one anyway.
I also like to think in this way, but who really knows. Jack's state of mind was so restless and discouraged at the same time.He wants more from Ennis but it seems to him that Ennis is happy as they are, it's hard to see for him.
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Wow! I think you have just pierced my heart where this scene is concerned. As angry as Jack appeared in this scene, it was obvious that he was pouring out his heart to Ennis. Jack's words may have hurt Ennis in a way, but there had to be some part of Ennis that realized he was dealing with someone who truly loved him and had put up with a lot of heartache just to be with him. Maybe part of the reason for Ennis's emotional breakdown was that he finally admitted in his heart that this relationship was never just "a thing" where Jack was concerned.
I agree, I think that was the point where Ennis finally realised the extent of Jack's feelings, that it was all very well telling Jack "if you can't fix it, you've gotta stand it", but Jack couldn't stand it anymore, he'd been trying to stand it for 20 years and it had been tearing him apart for all that time. Ennis's body language is very telling in that scene, at first he tells Jack to "go ahead" and say what he wants to say, Ennis believes he has the moral high ground because Jack's admitted to cheating on him, and as far as Ennis is concerned, nothing Jack says can justify that. But as Jack starts to let out all his frustrations, Ennis turns his back to him, as if to block out what Jack is saying, because he realises he (Ennis) has to bear some of the responsibility for Jack's actions. Ennis says "it's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this", but I think the unspoken other side to it is that Ennis realises that it's because of him that Jack is how he is, broken, lost and lonely, and that's why he had to resort to other men. Up until that point, Ennis seems unaware (or unwilling to realise) just how deep Jack's love for him is, and it's only when Jack spells it out loud and clear that he has no choice but to recognise it. Only the strongest, deepest, most intense and unconditional kind of love could cause that level of pain and anguish, but at the same time, be strong enough to keep Jack coming back for more. And Jack would have been back in November, whatever had been said, even if Jack had maybe considered living with Randall as a last resort, he would've given Ennis an ultimatum about it first, in the hope it would give Ennis the push he needed to agree to them being together.
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Interesting point you bring up tpe. Unfortunately the story's tragic ending prevents us from ever knowing what Jack's intentions were regarding Ennis. So many possible directions could have taken place after their final meeting. Jack was definitely making his true feelings toward Ennis known. However, we don't know if Jack was really going to take a step forward without Ennis. The answer would have been in the postcard...had Jack lived to answer it. :\'(
Yes, that's why Jack's love for Ennis also assumes a more tragic cast in the end. Because his wish went largely unfulfilled. Life is freqeuntly like this, no?
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I suppose Jack could have done what his father siad he intended to - left Lureen and moved to Lightning Flat with Randall, if Randall wanted to go with him. He could have replied to the postcard simply saying that he wasn;t going to come, and Ennis would never have known where he was - he had no reason to go to Lightning Flat himself.
More likely, though, IMO, is that the Randall-and-Jack-at-LF scenario is Jak's invention or a spur-of-the-moment suggestion made when his father was bugging him about all his promises to bring Ennis and make something out of the ranch. I don't know whether he would ever have seriously considered it.
I suspect that he qould have considered it. Then again, it's just an opinion. But nearly 20 years of frustration is a powerful incentive.
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We will never know for sure which direction the relationship would have gone, so most of us will choose the best scenario, Jack meeting Ennis at Pine Creek and Ennis agreeing to the life that they both want together. It's a dream but a nice one anyway.
Jack's love was intertwined with a dream. At least we know that in the end, Ennis came to a realization of howe much the dreamer loved him and how he so loved Jack.
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Lets face it, in the story Jack had been ridin' more than bulls in the four years they were apart, he was a sex tourist in Mexaco in the film. Randall was dropping hints the size of house bricks to Jack - and he did not say no. Who would to a bearded available hunk with access to a cabin ?
Jack was going for the sweet life with randall and Ennis had had 20 years to s*** or get off the pot.
The tragedy is Ennis only realised after what a fool he had been when he heard it from Jacks Father.
Ennis must have felt terrible that moment when John Twist was speaking about his son. After all, he could not have suspected that Jack was considering other plans. It was tantamount to betrayal, but Ennis let it be. I think it was because he realized that he was also to blame and that Jack must have suffered.
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We will never know for sure which direction the relationship would have gone, so most of us will choose the best scenario, Jack meeting Ennis at Pine Creek and Ennis agreeing to the life that they both want together. It's a dream but a nice one anyway.
I also like to think in this way, but who really knows. Jack's state of mind was so restless and discouraged at the same time.He wants more from Ennis but it seems to him that Ennis is happy as they are, it's hard to see for him.
I agree. We can think of it this way: had Jack lived, the prospects could have been less palatable to us. Who knows the twists and turns of the human heart?
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I agree, I think that was the point where Ennis finally realised the extent of Jack's feelings, that it was all very well telling Jack "if you can't fix it, you've gotta stand it", but Jack couldn't stand it anymore, he'd been trying to stand it for 20 years and it had been tearing him apart for all that time. Ennis's body language is very telling in that scene, at first he tells Jack to "go ahead" and say what he wants to say, Ennis believes he has the moral high ground because Jack's admitted to cheating on him, and as far as Ennis is concerned, nothing Jack says can justify that. But as Jack starts to let out all his frustrations, Ennis turns his back to him, as if to block out what Jack is saying, because he realises he (Ennis) has to bear some of the responsibility for Jack's actions. Ennis says "it's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this", but I think the unspoken other side to it is that Ennis realises that it's because of him that Jack is how he is, broken, lost and lonely, and that's why he had to resort to other men. Up until that point, Ennis seems unaware (or unwilling to realise) just how deep Jack's love for him is, and it's only when Jack spells it out loud and clear that he has no choice but to recognise it. Only the strongest, deepest, most intense and unconditional kind of love could cause that level of pain and anguish, but at the same time, be strong enough to keep Jack coming back for more. And Jack would have been back in November, whatever had been said, even if Jack had maybe considered living with Randall as a last resort, he would've given Ennis an ultimatum about it first, in the hope it would give Ennis the push he needed to agree to them being together.
I somehow like the fact that here is a hint of the Fall in Jack's love for Ennis close to the end of his life. It makes that love more precious, in my eyes. We often like to think that there is a love that lasts forever, but even the most ardent love cannot remain completely unaffected by fears. frustrations, and a loss of hope. In the end, Jack's love for Ennis was not perfect. Jack was very far from perfect. Perhaps that is why Ennis loved him so. Perhaps that is why we love him so. It is because Jack is so human. His imperfect love teaches us the meaning of what it means to live, and informs each of us that love can go on and can at last be realized by the other -- even beyond death itself.
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Yes, that's why Jack's love for Ennis also assumes a more tragic cast in the end. Because his wish went largely unfulfilled. Life is freqeuntly like this, no?
Tell me about it! It's why so many of us identify in part or in full with this story. :\'(
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Yep, Jack was so indeed human in the way he felt and dealt with his situation. His wishes went unfulfilled, unrealized but as the saying goes "That's life" In so many ways this fact certainly makes the story so real, So many can relate and apply it to their own lives. and this is why we are still so caught up in the messages of this classic, unforgettable film. That love this deeply felt reminds us that we are all human with built in frailty. It spoke to us. The force of the nature of Jack's deep love for Ennis spanned 20 long years. It was Undeniable.
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I somehow like the fact that here is a hint of the Fall in Jack's love for Ennis close to the end of his life. It makes that love more precious, in my eyes. We often like to think that there is a love that lasts forever, but even the most ardent love cannot remain completely unaffected by fears. frustrations, and a loss of hope. In the end, Jack's love for Ennis was not perfect. Jack was very far from perfect. Perhaps that is why Ennis loved him so. Perhaps that is why we love him so. It is because Jack is so human. His imperfect love teaches us the meaning of what it means to live, and informs each of us that love can go on and can at last be realized by the other -- even beyond death itself.
Beautiful words, Thomas. This whole subject just makes my heart ache, for both of them. This is so true, that the imperfectness of their love makes it even more meaningful, and allows us to relate even more closely to them. It's not a story of two people who had a wonderful sweet life together for years and then one died. It's their yearning toward but never quite getting there that is the heartache... And yes, Jack's love was imperfect, but yet so strong.
kathy
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kathy, no human love, is perfect, no? I think that is what makes it all so precious. That Jack loved Ennis imperfectly makes me love him all the more. And the same can be certainly said of Ennis's love for Jack.
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[
I somehow like the fact that here is a hint of the Fall in Jack's love for Ennis close to the end of his life. It makes that love more precious, in my eyes. We often like to think that there is a love that lasts forever, but even the most ardent love cannot remain completely unaffected by fears. frustrations, and a loss of hope. In the end, Jack's love for Ennis was not perfect. Jack was very far from perfect. Perhaps that is why Ennis loved him so. Perhaps that is why we love him so. It is because Jack is so human. His imperfect love teaches us the meaning of what it means to live, and informs each of us that love can go on and can at last be realized by the other -- even beyond death itself.
Beautiful as usual <^(
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kathy, no human love, is perfect, no? I think that is what makes it all so precious. That Jack loved Ennis imperfectly makes me love him all the more. And the same can be certainly said of Ennis's love for Jack.
Beautiful post tpe :\'( :\'( :\'(
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Wonderful words tpe and kathy. :\'(
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The Japanese as a people have a record of immortalizing the most valiant failures in their History. There is a great deal of substance to be said about this. It acknowledges that to struggle against fate and lose is close to the heart of the human condition.
In the case of Jack's love for Ennis, we may indeed say that that love was a failure. In spite of his intense love for Ennis, Jack was a failure in this regard. And we love him for that, because so many of us have experienced failed loves in one form or another. It is so human.
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Though in the end, I don't believe that Jack failed. I believe that life failed him. And when you consider how strongly the deck was stacked against him, his capacity for love and loyalty was a triumph over all the adversity that tried to break his spirit.
(sorry, fawning Jack moment ::))
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The astonishing thing is not that it failed. What was astonishing is that it lasted for so long.
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Though in the end, I don't believe that Jack failed. I believe that life failed him. And when you consider how strongly the deck was stacked against him, his capacity for love and loyalty was a triumph over all the adversity that tried to break his spirit.
(sorry, fawning Jack moment ::))
Well I'm an Ennis fan <^( and I couldn't agree more. Jack wasn't the most patient person on some levels. When it came to Ennis he really became patient for the sake of love. My hat is off to him. ^f^
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Though in the end, I don't believe that Jack failed. I believe that life failed him. And when you consider how strongly the deck was stacked against him, his capacity for love and loyalty was a triumph over all the adversity that tried to break his spirit.
(sorry, fawning Jack moment ::))
I'm tearing up after reading this FlwrChild :\'( :\'( :\'(
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This thread kills me. :\'( Beautifully said Flwrchild.
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Though in the end, I don't believe that Jack failed. I believe that life failed him. And when you consider how strongly the deck was stacked against him, his capacity for love and loyalty was a triumph over all the adversity that tried to break his spirit.
(sorry, fawning Jack moment ::))
Beautiful post! I'm tearing up and I'm a hard man. This is exactly what I see in Jack. His life and love may not be perfect, but it doesn't fail either.
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You start the tears flowing FlwrChild :\'(
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Kudos, Flowerchild. Very well stated and oh, so true.
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I also agree that Jack's love was not a failure. It was just the opposite. His love for Ennis spanned 20 years. His only failure was succeeding in convincing Ennis to share the commitment and join him in this deep love that he had for him. There is a difference. And try he did. To say that his love was a failure is to undercut the trials and tribulations he suffered to realize his dream of a life with the one he loved so dearly. FlowerChild is right, life indeed failed him. This is MHO.
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I also agree that Jack's love was not a failure. It was just the opposite. His love for Ennis spanned 20 years. His only failure was succeeding in convincing Ennis to share the commitment and join him in this deep love that he had for him. There is a difference. And try he did. To say that his love was a failure is to undercut the trials and tribulations he suffered to realize his dream of a life with the one he loved so dearly. FlowerChild is right, life indeed failed him. This is MHO.
Very well said!
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I also agree that Jack's love was not a failure. It was just the opposite. His love for Ennis spanned 20 years. His only failure was succeeding in convincing Ennis to share the commitment and join him in this deep love that he had for him. There is a difference. And try he did. To say that his love was a failure is to undercut the trials and tribulations he suffered to realize his dream of a life with the one he loved so dearly. FlowerChild is right, life indeed failed him. This is MHO.
Any kind of love can't be a total loss, no? You are probably right. Jack would probably have never admitted that he had failed in his love.
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Jack's love for ennis is showing in the flashback of the murder.Jack don't try to hide is homosexuality,he thinks about Ennis every moment of his life.The other cowboys kil jack for his nature that can't exist in their "system" :\'( :\'( :\'( ~) #) #) :gnight:l
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Jack would probably have never admitted that he had failed in his love.
There are no real failures in this.
But - if anyone did fail I think it was Ennis who failed Jack.
Time after time Jack tried to get a sweet life, and time after time Ennis rejected it out of fear from his childhood and the social enviromnent to which he belonged.
Ennis only got the message when I could not be fixed any more, only stood.
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Ennis only got the message when it could not be fixed any more, only stood.
so sad. :\'(
ans so true, to so many of us...
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Jack would probably have never admitted that he had failed in his love.
There are no real failures in this.
But - if anyone did fail I think it was Ennis who failed Jack.
Time after time Jack tried to get a sweet life, and time after time Ennis rejected it out of fear from his childhood and the social enviromnent to which he belonged.
Ennis only got the message when I could not be fixed any more, only stood.
Yes, I think the tragedy of BBM is that Ennis realized it too late. Would he have changed had Jack lived? I don't know. But I suspect that if he came around and Jack still lived, Jack would probably be unable to say no. Speculation, but everything in the past seems to lend support to this supposition.
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Ennis was convinced that his fears were real. When he told Jack about the story of Earl and Ray, he called himself trying to protect him. To prevent it from happening to them. But somewhere along the line some one failed Ennis first. His dad maybe? Those images of Earl dead, were seared into his head at 9? years old and he was told by his dad (or shown) that this is what happens to guys who dare live together or are gay. .a cruel deed to force this on a small child. It was a failure on his dad's part not to teach him tolerance , acceptance, and love , not shame and guilt.To fix it instead of standing it. He just was'nt as strong as Jack or mentally prepared for such a deep, loving relationship due to this. I think Jack "got it" and loved him even more for it.
He obviously felt he'd failed Jack in the end. IMHO
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I think one of the great things about Jack's love for Ennis was that it was able to see behind the fear and internal conflict and appreciate Ennis for what he truly is -- a faithful and truly loving soul that asked little of life and yet had more to give than meets the eye. Whatever Ennis's issues, he was capable of love, and this Jack recognized and loved in return.
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tpe, I think that sums up both of them quite beautifully. O0
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tpe, I think that sums up both of them quite beautifully. O0
Thanks FlwrChild. The lover is nothing without the beloved, no? To speak about Jack's love for Ennis can only lead us back to Ennis. Ennis's love, though imperfect, was understood by Jack to be the one thing that completes him as a human being. That was Ennis's gift. Sure, Ennis had a lot of issues. But even those issues were not strong enough for him to reject Jack's love. The power of Jack's love is manifest, and yet its power draws so much on Ennis's conflicted love.
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I think you understand them both so well. And you're right. Anytime you talk about one half of a whole, you must talk about the other half or the picture is incomplete. This is what they were to each other, whatever their strengths or weaknesses.
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So very true, both of you. And yes, Thomas, you said it so well, how their love intertwined. The love each of them had was fed by the other's love -- and it couldn't be any other way.
kathy
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I think you understand them both so well. And you're right. Anytime you talk about one half of a whole, you must talk about the other half or the picture is incomplete. This is what they were to each other, whatever their strengths or weaknesses.
Jeez, where are the tissues when you need them?
:\'(
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So very true, both of you. And yes, Thomas, you said it so well, how their love intertwined. The love each of them had was fed by the other's love -- and it couldn't be any other way.
kathy
You said it best: the love each of them had was fed by the other's love. I love the analogy of "feeding". And as FlwrChild said: this is what they were to each other -- two loves with one, one heart in two.
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I think you all said it so well. I can only sit here and absorb what you guys are saying and try to enhance what I already know or felt about Jack's love for Ennis and Ennis' love for Jack. I'm listening to many scholars here with teary eyes.
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JT, it's a wonderful subect: love. We are always students and teachers in this regard. Jack's love for Ennis moves us all the more because we have all loved or have been loved.
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JT, it's a wonderful subect: love. We are always students and teachers in this regard. Jack's love for Ennis moves us all the more because we have all loved or have been loved.
Beautiful post tpe :^^)
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Thanks greenfrog. I would even say that it's their suffering in love that we identify with the most. With Jack's love, this is certainly the case for me. It's so easy to sympathize with his frustration -- ans it's so moving to see his endurance.
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Having been a 'Jack' in a somewhat 'Jack-like' relationship, I find it very easy to sympathize with his frustration.
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I think I've been like an Ennis in the past, but I think this makes me appreciate Jack all the more.
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It certainly lets you see and understand both sides a little better. I grieve for Ennis and how hard it was to let himself be what he could have been and understand only too late. For Jack, knowing all along how he felt and having to endure Ennis's conflict as well makes it even sadder for me. And as you said, makes it so moving to see his endurance.
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"They love indeed, who quake to say they love." Philip Sidney.
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"They love indeed, who quake to say they love."
Love gave the wound, which, while they breathe, will bleed
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Only after Ennis finds the shirts did I realize how much Jack loved Ennis all along and that he knew that he and Ennis were in this battle together right from the very beginning. It hit me like a ton of bricks and my heart broke for them both. It all came together at that moment, THIS was such a tried-true love.
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...and while we're on quotes, I found this one pinned to a wall inside a theatre, and although I can't remember who says it, it reminded me of Jack, and his love for Ennis, as soon as I read it. I think this is it:
Let me think that there is one amongst those stars that guides my life through the great unknown.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.quartopotere.com%2Fimg%2Fcx%2Frec%2Fbrokeback-mountain.jpg&hash=6cea55057d47353c72a7c6604339d50416e2535a)
One amongst those stars...
:\'(
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That is totally gorgeous, Tosco (if you don't mind the familiarity). Gorgeous -- Jack was Ennis's one amongst those stars. God, that is so beautiful, gets to me.
kathy
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I think the abiding characteristic of Jack's love for Ennis is hope, and a whole world of patience. In spite of the ending, Jack's love was a patient love. In the end, it was almost sel-sacrificing. It was resigned. But we can be sure that even if hope had given way in the end to resignation, love was still there.
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It was. And we know this because if it wasn't, he would not remember the dozy embrace with such fondness and wistfulness. He loved Ennis because he couldn't help but do so.
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It was. And we know this because if it wasn't, he would not remember the dozy embrace with such fondness and wistfulness. He loved Ennis because he couldn't help but do so.
Beautifully said, FlwrChild. We know it to be so because he remembers that one embrace. He couldn't help loving Ennis, and tried his best to love him on Ennis's own terms.
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Yeah, how many people can remember an embrace 20 years ago, unless it was with someone you've had a deep love for. In Jack's mind this embrace soldified Ennis's love for him..And his for Ennis.20 years later, it's still so timeless to him.
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I think the dozy embrace is the summation of Jack's love for Ennis. It accepted whatever Ennis could give, but loved hopelessly in return.
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Yeah, in the "Dozy embrace" you can see the love in Jack's face and eyes when Ennis rode away. I don't think he ever felt that happy and satisfied in his life. Man! That scene is so beautiful and gets me tearful all the time and I want to sing to Jack, "You look so good in love, you want him, it's easy to see..."
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Yeah, in the "Dozy embrace" you can see the love in Jack's face and eyes when Ennis rode away. I don't think he ever felt that happy and satisfied in his life. Man! That scene is so beautiful and gets me tearful all the time and I want to sing to Jack, "You look so good in love, you want him, it's easy to see..."
The mere mention of that scene after the London theatre viewing made me weep. I have always felt that the scene was Jack's valediction. It is the face he probably wants us to remember him by: a face suffuced with love for Ennis.
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Yeah, in the "Dozy embrace" you can see the love in Jack's face and eyes when Ennis rode away. I don't think he ever felt that happy and satisfied in his life. Man! That scene is so beautiful and gets me tearful all the time and I want to sing to Jack, "You look so good in love, you want him, it's easy to see..."
The mere mention of that scene after the London theatre viewing made me weep. I have always felt that the scene was Jack's valediction. It is the face he probably wants us to remember him by: a face suffuced with love for Ennis.
That's how I see Jack. A beautiful young man full of love for his Ennis. I don't see the sad older Jack, who is, well, too sad.
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He is indeed sad here, with great reason to be . He thought he'd just lost the love of his life and his whole world was crumbling. His worst fearof loosing Ennis, that he'd harbored all those years had come true for him at that moment. Of all the moments in his life this Dozy embrace was truly a defining one for him. It was a time in contrast to the current one where their love was young and free in their own little "garden of Eden" . When all that mattered was him and Ennis and.... their love.
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seeing that scene again on the proper screen made me think of Hamlet's"Look here upon this picture and on this." There's the young Jack and the older one juxtaposed - Jack when he was full of youth and hope and dreams, and Jack after what life had thrown at him.
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True. life dealt Jack a bad hand but had he lived I don't think he would've traded the times he spent with Ennis for anything in the world.To him something with this man was better than nothing at all. Amidst all the bad stuff, I like to think that there were good times too. The "dozy embrace" proved that Jack's love for Ennis was a love they could feel. We all felt it too. That's real. A year later I"M still hooked.
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I do think Jack could not help loving Ennis. It was a hopeless atrraction. Jack must have hated himself at times for being so totally under its control.
It was fate.
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Ah, the things we do for love! Yes indeed he must have felt bad at times for the sacrifices he made, but he had to accept them, and resentment can breed contempt. He finally saw it at their last meeting. The culmination of self-sacrifice and not having it equally returned finally coming to a head.......... Plllease! don't get me started!
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Ah, the things we do for love! Yes indeed he must have felt bad at times for the sacrifices he made, but he had to accept them, and resentment can breed contempt. He finally saw it at their last meeting. The culmination of self-sacrifice and not having it equally returned finally coming to a head.......... Plllease! don't get me started!
Through all hopes that keep us brave,
Farther off or nigher,
Love me for the house and grave,
And for something higher.
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Thank you tpe, this says it all.
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Through all hopes that keep us brave,
Farther off or nigher,
Love me for the house and grave,
And for something higher.
A beautiful and very appropriate poem Thomas :^^)
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Thanks, aintfoolin and greenfog.
Love is so hard to describe in words. It is purely in the realm of feeling that we think we understand or begin to understand Jack's love for someone like Ennis.
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*cries* :\'(
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Jack's feelings of love for Ennis and vice-verse are what so many of us relate to in this classic film. It is a rollercoaster ride of every emotion availble to us. From elation to tradgedy inside every time I watch this movie. Such a powerful, fresh, human, and different, love story from begining to end.
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I do think Jack could not help loving Ennis. It was a hopeless atrraction. Jack must have hated himself at times for being so totally under its control.
It was fate.
Let us never forget that Ennis quit jobs to spend time with Jack.
That was a very big deal in those days, especially when he had child support to pay.
Jack was just more sophisticated than Ennis in many ways.
He imagined a future that Ennis couldn't.
I have never doubted that Jack knew Ennis loved him.
That's why he never gave up on him.
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I agree. As screwed up as the situation was Jack's life had more structure than Ennis. Jack was forced to walk a straight line in Texas with LD and Lureen. And he learned some valuable lessons behind it,though in it he suffered . But suffering breeds character. Blessed with charm and the gift to communicate, along with a wonderful insight, Jack went after what he wanted with a vengence. He never gave up on getting some sort of settled life for himself and the ones he loved. He had his own fears but did'nt allow them to keep him from going after his dreams. I loved and admired that in him.
Some say he was a dreamer and had pipedreams and all but had he lived he would have eventually gotten what he wanted. A sweet life with Ennis. Would never have given that up because his love was just that strong. 20 years waiting? No doubt about it.
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Let us never forget that Ennis quit jobs to spend time with Jack.
That was a very big deal in those days, especially when he had child support to pay.
Jack was just more sophisticated than Ennis in many ways.
He imagined a future that Ennis couldn't.
I have never doubted that Jack knew Ennis loved him.
That's why he never gave up on him.
I do think Jack knew that Ennis truly loved him. That is why in his final act of moving on, I still persist in believing that it was not an act of betrayal.
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I agree. As screwed up as the situation was Jack's life had more structure than Ennis. Jack was forced to walk a straight line in Texas with LD and Lureen. And he learned some valuable lessons behind it,though in it he suffered . But suffering breeds character. Blessed with charm and the gift to communicate, along with a wonderful insight, Jack went after what he wanted with a vengence. He never gave up on getting some sort of settled life for himself and the ones he loved. He had his own fears but did'nt allow them to keep him from going after his dreams. I loved and admired that in him.
Some say he was a dreamer and had pipedreams and all but had he lived he would have eventually gotten what he wanted. A sweet life with Ennis. Would never have given that up because his love was just that strong. 20 years waiting? No doubt about it.
Jack's was most certainly more outwardly passionate. And it was most certainly fueled by dreams.
Jack is perhaps a realization of the Romantic Lover.
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Jack's was most certainly more outwardly passionate. And it was most certainly fueled by dreams.
Jack is perhaps a realization of the Romantic Lover.
I always say "He died trying"
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I always say "He died trying"
The fact that he tried makes death bearable.
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The fact that he tried makes death bearable.
I'll have to think that one through. Profound.
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I'll have to think that one through. Profound.
Oh, JFT. I am sure we all would never turn our backs on life even though we know that death is inevitable. I think this was what Jack wanted -- to live fully.
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Oh, JFT. I am sure we all would never turn our backs on life even though we know that death is inevitable. I think this was what Jack wanted -- to live fully.
Yes. It's Ennis I feel sorry for - playing safe all those years only to know what he had when it was gone.
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Yes, it is really Ennis's tragedy, no? But at least the memory of having possessed Jack and his love saved him. It could have been worse, even if it could have not ended in Jack's death...
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These are heartbreaking posts. Yes i agree tpe - i feel it was Ennis's tragedy, and i don't think he did play it safe. I feel he felt himself caught between a rock and a hard place, and at the time he felt there was no other way for him. His life was never easy, i am trying to think of a moment without Jack, when he actually appeared truly happy and i can't.
Very sad that he only realised the extent of Jack's love for him when it was too late, but thank god he did. Can you imagine him receiving the deceased postcard and that being the end of the story? His life would have seemed even more hopeless. The power of Jack's love gave me some measure of hope at the end, and Ennis too.
Tearing up again... :\'(
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Jack's was most certainly more outwardly passionate. And it was most certainly fueled by dreams.
Jack is perhaps a realization of the Romantic Lover.
I have always thought Jack's character is very similar to romantic heroes of 19th century.
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I have always thought Jack's character is very similar to romantic heroes of 19th century.
These days most films are either pulp comedy, romance, fantasy or violence.
When I first saw BBM I felt it was like nothing else I had ever seen. That is still true to some extent, but I now know that it is also a modern reworking of a very tried and tested film formula which was out of fassion - in the 30's they were called weepies. Hope and sorrow alternate with a big tragic ending in weepies.
Weepies were in many ways the technological follow on to the romantic heroes of (pre)victorian novels. Of course many weepies were film versions of these same classics.
Its a strange fact that people seek melancolic emotional stimulation as well as laughter, but they do if its done well. And it gets no better than in BBM. Its good to see this sort of film back again.
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People are attracted from strong feelings.....
It is almost the need of a catharsis and it is
the same winning formula of the Greek tragedy,
always Eros and Thanatos which interweave indissolubly.
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People are attracted from strong feelings.....
It is almost the need of a catharsis and it is
the same winning formula of the Greek tragedy,
always Eros and Thanatos which interweave indissolubly.
Quite.
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I have always thought Jack's character is very similar to romantic heroes of 19th century.
Yes, I do agree. There is something starry-eyed about him and about his love for Ennis.
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These days most films are either pulp comedy, romance, fantasy or violence.
When I first saw BBM I felt it was like nothing else I had ever seen. That is still true to some extent, but I now know that it is also a modern reworking of a very tried and tested film formula which was out of fassion - in the 30's they were called weepies. Hope and sorrow alternate with a big tragic ending in weepies.
Weepies were in many ways the technological follow on to the romantic heroes of (pre)victorian novels. Of course many weepies were film versions of these same classics.
Its a strange fact that people seek melancolic emotional stimulation as well as laughter, but they do if its done well. And it gets no better than in BBM. Its good to see this sort of film back again.
Well said JFT.
I do think the beauty of this particular realization comes from its great restraint and subtlety. In this, for example, Jack's love differs from many stock heroes of 19th Century Romanticism. He is the Romantic hero/anti-hero in a more modern guise, I guess.
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People are attracted from strong feelings.....
It is almost the need of a catharsis and it is
the same winning formula of the Greek tragedy,
always Eros and Thanatos which interweave indissolubly.
Also, beautifully said.
In its restraint and subtlety, there is indeed a classical refinement to this love.
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The dozy embrace is perhaps the apex of Ennis's expression of love towards Jack. The final bitter embrace is testament to Jack's endurance: it is love that struggles against the backdrop of a sickness verily unto death.
Since I'm new here, I'm reading all of the older threads...this one just slays me. tpe, this post breaks my heart!
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jacks_key, seeing this again also breaks my heart anew...
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Jack was love, in spite of everything Jack knew how to love, I guess that's why I lean little towards him. In the film, he was the one that caught the scorn Aguirre, and didn't mentioned it Ennis. In the bar scene where he tried to pick up the rodeo clown, he was rebuffed, and the look over his shoulders after him, broke my heart. When he first met Lureen you could see he was searching for something when he danced with her, and the scene in the car made me laugh, but that was Jack, sensitive, needing, open and wanting to give all the love and passion he had to someone.
Who did he want? He wanted to give to Ennis, he was the one he truly loved, and wanted, but Ennis made it so hard for him.
Jack put himself out there for good or ill in world, and Ennis couldn't or wouldn't understand this. Jack's love was deep, it flowed freely to him, just like the rivers and streams of Brokeback.
Ennis at any time could drink of it, and be protected by Jack from all his fears. I could see Jack telling Ennis , "Friend, been there, done that." "I know what it's like out there."
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This is beautiful, manhattangirl. You exactly describe Jack's love, his personality, in its many facets, with these examples. He was indeed like the rivers, the wind, all that flows freely...except Ennis was so dammed up and Jack's love for him didn't find the free expression we wish it could have. Heartbreaking.
This is no breaking news, but basically we see Ennis as the tragic character, but Jack was the one who suffered more -- a free spirit broken. Ennis's was self-inflicted (well, except considering the way he grew up, and his father).
kathy
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Jack put himself out there for good or ill in world, and Ennis couldn't or wouldn't understand this. Jack's love was deep, it flowed freely to him, just like the rivers and streams of Brokeback.
Ennis at any time could drink of it, and be protected by Jack from all his fears. I could see Jack telling Ennis , "Friend, been there, done that." "I know what it's like out there."
:\'( Beautifully put Manhattan Girl
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Who did he want? He wanted to give to Ennis, he was the one he truly loved, and wanted, but Ennis made it so hard for him.
Sometimes, the bitterness and hardships of love is the sweetest thing to a lover who dares to dream. It is because the pain reminds him constantly of the depths of his own love.
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There's a French proverb - in English "There is always one who kisses and one who turns the cheek."
Jack has a fatal inability to stop trying - those who have loved someone who doesn't love them as much or enough in return will know the way one thinks that if only one goes on loving, enduring, giving, in the end one's love will be recognised, until one has invested so much that one can't give up even if one wants to.
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Yeah, in the "Dozy embrace" you can see the love in Jack's face and eyes when Ennis rode away. I don't think he ever felt that happy and satisfied in his life. Man! That scene is so beautiful and gets me tearful all the time and I want to sing to Jack, "You look so good in love, you want him, it's easy to see..."
That scene absolutely destroys me, every time I see it. I'm getting choked up right now here at work, just thinking about it. It's just soooooooooo beautiful... :\'(
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There's a French proverb - in English "There is always one who kisses and one who turns the cheek."
Jack has a fatal inability to stop trying - those who have loved someone who doesn't love them as much or enough in return will know the way one thinks that if only one goes on loving, enduring, giving, in the end one's love will be recognised, until one has invested so much that one can't give up even if one wants to.
That's Jack's tragic flaw. And it's very much integral to his love for someone like Ennis. IN the end, he may have given up hope, but I doubt that he ever gave up his love.
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There's a French proverb - in English "There is always one who kisses and one who turns the cheek."
Jack has a fatal inability to stop trying - those who have loved someone who doesn't love them as much or enough in return will know the way one thinks that if only one goes on loving, enduring, giving, in the end one's love will be recognised, until one has invested so much that one can't give up even if one wants to.
Well said, WW, as usual. This is so tragic, yet as tpe said, part of Jack's feelings could be that the pain is of equal depth to the love.
So, Jack won't give up, and that is a beautiful part of his character. But I think that Ennis did love Jack as much as Jack loved Ennis, except that Ennis didn't know how to feel with his whole self and give it freely, as Jack knew how to do... Ennis deflected his pain; he warded it off in advance, to be sure he wouldn't get killed by his love. Whereas Jack lived with his pain, maybe in equal measure to his love.
kathy
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That scene absolutely destroys me, every time I see it. I'm getting choked up right now here at work, just thinking about it. It's just soooooooooo beautiful... :\'(
Try it on slow speed. Really.
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Try it on slow speed. Really.
... and add "spiritual" by charlie haden, as annie proulx did. i swear....
tizi
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Well said, WW, as usual. This is so tragic, yet as tpe said, part of Jack's feelings could be that the pain is of equal depth to the love.
So, Jack won't give up, and that is a beautiful part of his character. But I think that Ennis did love Jack as much as Jack loved Ennis, except that Ennis didn't know how to feel with his whole self and give it freely, as Jack knew how to do... Ennis deflected his pain; he warded it off in advance, to be sure he wouldn't get killed by his love. Whereas Jack lived with his pain, maybe in equal measure to his love.
kathy
As I had said in another thread, it is best to see Jack's love for Ennis as the active part of the equation, balanced out by the more passive/defensive stance Ennis took in his love for Jack. Jack I think realized this, and tried to bring Ennis to a more open acknowledgement of the bond between the two of them. In some sense, he failed during his lifetime; it is ironic that it was in death that Ennis openly acknowledged to himself that it was Jack he loved above everything else in life.
THis is what I meant when I said before that Jack's love for Ennis is a form of liebestod.
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As I had said in another thread, it is best to see Jack's love for Ennis as the active part of the equation, balanced out by the more passive/defensive stance Ennis took in his love for Jack. Jack I think realized this, and tried to bring Ennis to a more open acknowledgement of the bond between the two of them. In some sense, he failed during his lifetime; it is ironic that it was in death that Ennis openly acknowledged to himself that it was Jack he loved above everything else in life.
THis is what I meant when I said before that Jack's love for Ennis is a form of liebestod.
please do explain this to me. being of german language i would like to know what it means fo renglish speaking people - it must have a different significance than in german..
to die of love or to die for love or to die because of love or to die for lack of love...
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to die of love or to die for love or to die because of love or to die for lack of love...
Perhaps in this case they all apply.
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please do explain this to me. being of german language i would like to know what it means fo renglish speaking people - it must have a different significance than in german..
to die of love or to die for love or to die because of love or to die for lack of love...
It means "love-death". It is widely associated with Wagnerian Opera, especially the last scene of Tristan & Isolde. Wagner connects this with the character Isolde's verklärung (coming to clarity), and is tied with the idea of redemption in death through love. It can be thought of then as a struggle (and resolution) between love and death.
Eli Siegel put it best:
Something like struggle is needed by the human being. Something even like discontent is needed by the human being. ….One cannot think of a world made up of smooth roads strewn with roses and bordered by exceedingly accessible marshmallows. The world, like the human body, is a compound of resistance and ease, obstruction and going forward, obstacle and companion.
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It means "love-death". It is widely associated with Wagnerian Opera, especially the last scene of Tristan & Isolde. Wagner connects this with the character Isolde's verklärung (coming to clarity), and is tied with the idea of redemption in death through love. It can be thought of then as a struggle (and resolution) between love and death.
Eli Siegel put it best:
Something like struggle is needed by the human being. Something even like discontent is needed by the human being. ….One cannot think of a world made up of smooth roads strewn with roses and bordered by exceedingly accessible marshmallows. The world, like the human body, is a compound of resistance and ease, obstruction and going forward, obstacle and companion.
Thomas, this is great. I love the yin/yang of it; and especially when the human body (and the body of the Earth, we could say, and in physical mechanics, and everything) is given as an example, one can really get this, how necessary is the ease and resistance, etc. Also "divine anxiety" as I believe Alan Watts would speak of. Anyway, this yin/yang element is certainly relevant in the portrait of Ennis and Jack.
kathy
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Thomas, this is great. I love the yin/yang of it; and especially when the human body (and the body of the Earth, we could say, and in physical mechanics, and everything) is given as an example, one can really get this, how necessary is the ease and resistance, etc. Also "divine anxiety" as I believe Alan Watts would speak of. Anyway, this yin/yang element is certainly relevant in the portrait of Ennis and Jack.
kathy
Love it, kathy. It is a "divine anxiety" -- the feeling as if you either fall into a precipice or fly up to the heavens. It is the tug and pull of forces within the Heart. Gravity and repulsion mixed into one. But always from the Heart. Always to the Heart.
That's it, really. That's Jack's love for Ennis.
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Well said, Thomas. The Heart is at the center of the Universe. Certainly as pertains to Ennis and Jack.
So, is this topic closed? Is yours the final answer to this sublime question? I'm sure not -- plenty more we can say about Jack's love for Ennis. A love that will never grow old...
kathy
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Well said, Thomas. The Heart is at the center of the Universe. Certainly as pertains to Ennis and Jack.
So, is this topic closed? Is yours the final answer to this sublime question? I'm sure not -- plenty more we can say about Jack's love for Ennis. A love that will never grow old...
kathy
Far from it, kathy. The Heart is a vast, mysterious thing.
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It lasted twenty years, but Jack's love for Ennis never really had a chance to grow old. The ss talks about the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings - I wonder what would have happened when the physical desire, which is a very strong binding influence, died away with age.
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That's a very interesting question,ww. I'd like to think that by the time they were too old to get the full charge ( and what age would that be????) they would have been so attached to one another, they still would meet just to spend time together and reminisce. The other bonds may have kicked in, so to speak, since they are already evident in the 20 years they are together. They share a love of the wilderness and camping. They seem to chat freely; they must have some things in common besides physical needs. Good question to ponder.
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I think so too lamusica. They were about so much more than sex. Otherwise Jack could have found what he needed in many other places. They were comfortable together, enjoyed each other's company, and of course (whether either of them ever said it or not) were in love. I believe that if it had ever had the chance to grow in the open, their love would have stood the test of time.
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It lasted twenty years, but Jack's love for Ennis never really had a chance to grow old. The ss talks about the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings - I wonder what would have happened when the physical desire, which is a very strong binding influence, died away with age.
Like many happily married couples, I would think that they would have moved beyond the physical and begin to feel like one and the same person. I do think Jack said it as much when he contemplated the dozy embrace.
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I think their relationship have already gone beyond physical desire, even near the beginning. As you recall, Jack wanted not only sex, but that sweet life that he so longing for. Yes, the desire is still there after 20 years, but they behave like an old couple like they are--sharing and complaining about things. I agree with you, Thomas, regarding the dozy embrace. It showed us the true nature of Jack's love.
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I think their relationship have already gone beyond physical desire, even near the beginning. As you recall, Jack wanted not only sex, but that sweet life that he so longing for. Yes, the desire is still there after 20 years, but they behave like an old couple like they are--sharing and complaining about things. I agree with you, Thomas, regarding the dozy embrace. It showed us the true nature of Jack's love.
Yes. The dozy embrace did happen back in 63, no? At that early stage, they had moved beyond sex. That's why Jack remembered and craved it the most.
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Yes. The dozy embrace did happen back in 63, no? At that early stage, they had moved beyond sex. That's why Jack remembered and craved it the most.
Not only that, but there is the saying "Sex is better when you're in love." So while yes, Jack could have gone and filled his sexual desires elsewhere, it never would compare to sex with Ennis because of the bond they had both physical and emotional.
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Not only that, but there is the saying "Sex is better when you're in love." So while yes, Jack could have gone and filled his sexual desires elsewhere, it never would compare to sex with Ennis because of the bond they had both physical and emotional.
Yes, Jack's love for Ennis can't be separated from Ennis himself, no? It's because of Ennis that the sex was good, and travelling the distance was worth it, and dreaming of a shared life was desirable...
This reminds me of the old thread: what was it that made Jack love Ennis. This question is tied to the understanding of Jack's love.
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I was well past my tenth viewing before I noticed that Jack took off HIS scarf while trying to tend to the dried blood on Ennis's face. One minute before, he was mad because there was nothing to eat. Next thing...he's concerned about Ennis. :'( :'(
True :_( :_(
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I fell like almost everything he does, he does out of love for Ennis (even if that means letting him go). :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
Yes poor jake :_(
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Welcome mama. ^f^
It's hard not to cry for them, isn't it? Unrequited love is one thing; it hurts but can be moved past and healed from. Love unrealized is much worse. It's there for both parties but unallowed to grow and breathe free. So it lives in their hearts but stifled from what it could have been.
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I think so too lamusica. They were about so much more than sex. Otherwise Jack could have found what he needed in many other places. They were comfortable together, enjoyed each others company, and of course (whether either of them ever said it or not) were in love. I believe that if it had ever had the chance to grow in the open, their love would have stood the test of time.
Hmm, much is said about them not saying they love each other. In fact, Love is only used once in the film, but Ennis to Alma Jr. But, lets take stock. They've maintained a relationship over 20 years, spend more or less 49-50 / 52 weeks a year apart, yet still long and ache to be each other. They both feel the same, although Jack is the dreamer, and Ennis is rooted into the ground. They don't need to say it.
I believe, from reading the story, that if Jack hadn't died prematurely they'd be together forever. Whether that was just 2 or 3 times a year in the middle of nowhere, or maybe, when times became more enlightened, properly. Either way, their love would have lasted always. I don't believe they'd have ever have parted, no matter who they ended up with the other 49/50 weeks of the year. Their hearts where forever, locked. <^(
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I agree.
I think Ennis sending the postcard to meet up again tells us that he was prepared to continue the ride as long as it would take them, and as hard as it was for him to be without Ennis, I think Jack would have been back. A little piece of him might have died every year as the disappointment grew that they couldn't have a life together but I think he would have come back nevertheless.
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I agree.
I think Ennis sending the postcard to meet up again tells us that he was prepared to continue the ride as long as it would take them, and as hard as it was for him to be without Ennis, I think Jack would have been back. A little piece of him might have died every year as the disappointment grew that they couldn't have a life together but I think he would have come back nevertheless.
I agree Jack would be back, and even the disappointment bit, but I am also hopeful, that with time, had Jack lived, with the girls marrying and Ennis no longer paying child support, the two of them would meet up in the Twist Ranch on Jack's visits, and eventually take over when his Pa passes. Jack was only staying with Lureen for Bobby's sake. He already said he'd take any settlement money and start a cow and calf operation with Ennis. So as soon as Ennis is free, and as society evolves, you can bet those two would spend more and more time together.
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Hello everyone :h}
Well... Jack's love is the strogest and most beautiful expression I've seen in a movie and I've read many books and seen a lot of love stories, but these are the most touching scenes for me ... ^f^ if I had to choose three, they would be:
Jack feels attracted by Ennis in my opinion as soon as he sees him for the first time (he's just staring at him from the side mirror), like a crush (because Ennis is so hot, we all can see that)
After that the scene where Ennis is "having a bath/shower/whatever that is" he just peeling that potatoe and swallowing like nervous... it's just so sweet.
And of course the second tent scene, so soft, sweet, hot, passionate, lovely, tender... <^(
Jack's face of dissapointment when he went to see Ennis after "the divorce", and when Eniis tells him that "he ain't queer"... ^f^
What do you think? }s{
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Hi Izara23. :) Welcome to the forum.
Those were definitely compelling moments in the movie. I would add another to that list. At the final confrontation, when Jack has unleashed all of his frustrations and heartaches onto Ennis and Ennis tells him "I'm nothing; I'm nowhere" it only takes a moment for Jack's demeanor to change. His anger and hurt drop away as he instinctively reaches out to comfort Ennis in his moment of pain. To me, that's the essence of Jack's love for Ennis. That he was always willing to take what Ennis was able to give and seemed to recognize, as much as it frustrated him, that that was the case, that Ennis was giving what he was able and never withheld anything for any other reason.
This is why I love these characters so much. They were just simple people doing the best they could with what they had.
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Hi Izara23. :) Welcome to the forum.
Hi! thanks! but I have to say that is L Zara, it's from my doggy, she is a labrador retriever and her name is Zara, 23 is my age , LabradoraZara23 would be the whole compound ^f^
That moment is specially heartbreaking, something moves inside of me whenever I see Jack's reaction when Ennis starts crying :_( so sad and touching. Jack has a different way of showing his feelings that makes us melt.
Another moment, although Jack is not physically present on it, is when Ennis goes to Jack parents' house (excuse my english please) and his father starts speaking about how Jack was always talking about Ennis del Mar and their plans together <^( :_(
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#$# to the forum Izara23! :h} :c)
I agree with you that the love between Ennis and Jack is truly beautiful. They are so different and yet resonate so well together, the ying and yang of love. Jack is so open and outpouring of the moment, full of hope and dreams for the future. Ennis is closed and stingy except at SNIT, damped up by fears from images of the past. Yet, together the two balances into perfect harmony, with their feet on the ground while dreaming of ranches in the clouds.
Jack loves without judgment and reservation. Ennis loves without ending and deviation. Jack may go to Mexico but Ennis held on to those few fleeting days in the middle of nowhere a few times a year, even when they cost him everything, for years. Jack is the flint that sparks the roaring fire in the steady hearth in Ennis.
The love between Ennis and Jack is definitely as you said, one of the most beautiful in cinematic history.
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Thanks for the welcome lancecowboy, and I love how you describe Ennis and Jack's love as two components totally different but at the same time necessary to one another (ying& yang) Beautiful descripted.
I've realised watching the movie again {b} that there's another scene which is my favourite, just 2 o 3 seconds, no words, just Jack washing Ennis' shirt, that is love, and it is just the day after the first tent scene, :_( Jack is so adorable :^^)
There is also one thing I've been thinking about:
Why do you think Jack is so decided to start a sexual intercourse with Ennis at the tent? I mean, he just doesn't know what was going to be his reaction, or do you think that Jack has interpreted Ennis' attitude (the fact that he stays and gets drunk) as a possible "Yes"?
I think that Jack was drunk and finally decided to do something that maybe would have been harder in another situation, but I think he would have tried it anyway. What do you think?? :^^)
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Hi, Izara, Jack's hope is eternal where bluebirds sing next to a whisky spring, so he always think his next love is the one. It's the reason for his riding more than bulls in the rodeo circuit, and doing more than tequila shots in Mexico. Jack doesn't need no reason nor encouragement. It gets him into trouble, like with the rodeo clown, and possibly Randall, but he hit gold with Ennis, who loves one and only one, with his whole heart and soul.
That's what I love about Ennis, and Ennis/Jack. One is hope, the other is faith, together their love makes both of them better.
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I think their feelings for each other had been building up. They had been together a month when this happened in the tent. (Notice the full moon when they set up camp the first time and then again in the tent scene) Ang Lee put in subtle things like that through out the film. I think Jack took the opportunity of Ennis staying with him that night and just kind of went for it not knowing what would happen. For all he knew it could have been total rejection, but you never know until you try and I think Ennis gave him little hints that he was interested too.