Author Topic: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler (Read 116990 times)

tpe · « **Reply #180 on:** Apr 10, 2007, 07:44 AM »

Quote from: lamusica on Apr 09, 2007, 12:17 PM

The last time I read the SS, I became convinced that Ennis's vision of Jack's death was the true one. When Ennis is sitting at the Twists' table, and Mr. Twist mentions Jack saying he was going to bring his rancher-neighbor up to LF, ANnie says Ennis knew at that moment that Jack was killed by the tire iron. He knew Jack was messing with another man (men), and was sure Jack had been "found out" and punished by gay-bashers in the area. This never made an impression on me until the last time I read it.

Although ambiguous in the ss, I do think the movie version shows a subtle preference to Ennis's vision of Jack's death via tire iron.

tamlynn · « **Reply #181 on:** Apr 14, 2007, 12:17 PM »

Maybe Jack is not dead.

All we have is an aloof widow's story, and she's pretty cold about it. She may have teared up because she knew that this person out of Jack's distant past and favorite place was someone who was going to be the most deeply hurt... by her lie. Maybe Jack was paid by his father in law to just disappear. The family fabricated a story and stuck with it and stamped all his mail DECEASED. Ennis bought it without question or investigation, which is true to his character type, but not good enough for me. I still adore him, but sheesh, he just takes it.

It's probably wishful thinking on my part, but these thoughts don't leave me. Their happy ending is all I seem to think about and want right now. Just saw the movie 2 weeks ago, I'm freshly wounded, obsessed, and have watched it several times this week.

Do look at the facts in the movie... we don't know. We never saw a funeral, we have a hearsay story and an image. that's all we have. We don't see Jack die. I can't comment on the book because I didn't read it, but judging by the movie alone, it spells SEQUEL and maybe Ang Lee is working on just that.

If not, should we request or presssure for a sequel? Or is everyone fine with the movie as it is?

Glad you all are here! Finding you was a blessing!

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #182 on:** Apr 14, 2007, 02:09 PM »

Hi Tamlynn and Welcome

That's an interesting take on the movie. IMO Jack really did die- I've seen other theories very long ago that Jack wasn't really dead and in my mind I can't see him faking his death. I've played out what ifs and thought maybe it was possible that he quit Ennis and wanted no more contact and what a way to do it but I can't see him doing that. I want nothing more than for him to be alive but I can't see everyone going along with it- especially his mother. As much as it kills me I think his death was a necessary part of the story because it brought Ennis out of his shell on some level- calling Lureen, going to the ranch and owning up to the fact that their relationship did exist and then later on with Junior when he agrees to go to her wedding. It also teaches us that you're not guaranteed tomorrow, there may not be a next time, to hold onto those you love and that maybe taking a risk is okay because the regrets of would've, should've and could've are so horribly painful to live with. At least that's how I see it.

lamusica · « **Reply #183 on:** Apr 14, 2007, 03:01 PM »

Well said, LuvJackNasty. Although my heart breaks to think of Jack dying (no matter which way was the truth), I don't think the story would have the depth of meaning and feeling it does without that soooo regrettable ending. You're still grieveing, Tamlynn, and will be for a long time. We all were (are). Read the short story sometime, if you can. It helps round out the story, may answer some questions, and will probably cause you to ask more questions. This is true literature and is worthy of all the emotions, ruminations and time we brokies put into it. Welcome!

tamlynn · « **Reply #184 on:** Apr 14, 2007, 07:48 PM »

Thanks LuvJackNasty and lamusica for your response. I do think the lessons are profound and I think they would stick even if a sequel did come out. I won't let go will I? I wish I knew how to quit it. I really enjoy these boards and messages... I'll probably get earphones before I get the book but I will get the book too. Are you sure Jack couldn't be alive... any remote chance? Seemed like the movie left it open. And, it does make me feel better to think he just took his father in law's money to disappear for awhile. One terrific movie, nonetheless. Thanks again.

Tamlynn

tpe · « **Reply #185 on:** Apr 16, 2007, 10:00 AM »

Quote from: tamlynn on Apr 14, 2007, 07:48 PM

Thanks LuvJackNasty and lamusica for your response. I do think the lessons are profound and I think they would stick even if a sequel did come out. I won't let go will I? I wish I knew how to quit it. I really enjoy these boards and messages... I'll probably get earphones before I get the book but I will get the book too. Are you sure Jack couldn't be alive... any remote chance? Seemed like the movie left it open. And, it does make me feel better to think he just took his father in law's money to disappear for awhile. One terrific movie, nonetheless. Thanks again.

Tamlynn

Interesting thoughts, tamlynn. Thank you so much for sharing it.

A part of me always thinks what if Jack lived. The "what if" part haunts me.

LadybugLara · « **Reply #186 on:** Aug 30, 2007, 04:00 PM »

i think ennis's is the true story. Jack's wife seemed to calm when she told Eniis like she was telling a story about someone other than her husband.

myprivatejack · « **Reply #187 on:** Aug 31, 2007, 06:02 AM »

It´s such an interesting topic that I can only be sorry for not having discovered it before.

all for your posts...Specially Tamlynn,because sometimes I´ve also thought that perhaps Jack was not dead,but hidden to run away from all what had been his life up to then.Surely he was fed up with everything-he was at the point of quitting Ennis,with all the pain that this carries,perhaps the new relationship with Randall didn´t fullfil his expectatives,the simple sexual relief with Mexican hustlers wasn´t what he looked for,he felt underestimated in his professional,familiar and personal life...-.
In this so ugly landscape,it´s logical to think that he went away,with the "help" of his father-in-law or not.For me,LJN,this the same than his real death,also could oblige Ennis to go out from his shell ,let Jack breath and see problems with another perspective and,somehow,put evrything in its place

myprivatejack · « **Reply #188 on:** Aug 31, 2007, 06:31 AM »

At the same time,this situation would have given Ennis a sad lesson he must have obtained several years before, and also would have teached us to fight for our objectives,to hold to love when we get it,to be more tolerants with other persons and,very often,also with ourselves,TO LIVE, in sum...
Moreover,the development of the last half an hour doesn´t give us a definitve proof of his death, even his wife is too cold to having lost his beloved husband for a sudden accident,don´t you think?.This solution wouldn´t be,in sum,so tragic and definitive but with the same amount of denouncement of the intolerance in a close country community...
If Jack is really dead,of course I vote for the father-in-law,perhaps having used Randall as a "bait",an incentive to attract him and make him more vulnerable.And with the "ideological" help of Ennis.What´s your opinion?.

tpe · « **Reply #189 on:** Aug 31, 2007, 06:46 AM »

Quote from: LadybugLara on Aug 30, 2007, 04:00 PM

i think ennis's is the true story. Jack's wife seemed to calm when she told Eniis like she was telling a story about someone other than her husband.

To be sure, I think it was the film's intention to show that Lureen was not telling the truth. She was telling the story by rote.

tpe · « **Reply #190 on:** Aug 31, 2007, 06:51 AM »

Quote from: myprivatejack on Aug 31, 2007, 06:31 AM

At the same time,this situation would have given Ennis a sad lesson he must have obtained several years before, and also would have teached us to fight for our objectives,to hold to love when we get it,to be more tolerants with other persons and,very often,also with ourselves,TO LIVE, in sum...
Moreover,the development of the last half an hour doesn´t give us a definitve proof of his death, even his wife is too cold to having lost his beloved husband for a sudden accident,don´t you think?.This solution wouldn´t be,in sum,so tragic and definitive but with the same amount of denouncement of the intolerance in a close country community...
If Jack is really dead,of course I vote for the father-in-law,perhaps having used Randall as a "bait",an incentive to attract him and make him more vulnerable.

I personally believe that Jack was murdered -- as what Ennis saw in his own mind. But I am not so sure as to the specifics. Personally, I simply felt that it may have been just by chance -- perhaps the mechanics seeing him and Randall kiss, or perhaps a slight or imagined "pass" on one of them. If the deleted scene were to be available at some future date, perhaps we will have a better idea of how Ang Lee and the screen writers envisioned it.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #191 on:** Aug 31, 2007, 07:06 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Aug 31, 2007, 06:46 AM

To be sure, I think it was the film's intention to show that Lureen was not telling the truth. She was telling the story by rote.

Well I did'nt hear her offering Ennis Jack's ashes to carry out his last wishes after she found out who Ennis was. She knew what Jack wanted. Instead she sends Ennis to get them from Jack's folks. Of course the old man refused.
If there ever was some one who knew how to change a tire with out killin them selves, it had to be Jack. I don't by her story. Dead or alive, his spirit lives on in all of us.

tpe · « **Reply #192 on:** Aug 31, 2007, 07:10 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Aug 31, 2007, 07:06 AM

Well I did'nt hear her offering Ennis Jack's ashes to carry out his last wishes after she found out who Ennis was. She knew what Jack wanted. Instead she sends Ennis to get them from Jack's folks. Of course the old man refused.
If there ever was some one who knew how to change a tire with out killin them selves, it had to be Jack. I don't by her story. Dead or alive, his spirit lives on in all of us.

Lureen probably also felt shame -- shame of perhapsd knowing the truth about Jack at last. For her, his death had to be an accident. And Ennis's existence was, in a sense. an affront -- a direct challenge -- to her state of mind.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #193 on:** Aug 31, 2007, 07:50 AM »

In some of these little one horse towns, law enforcement leaves a lot to be desired. May be she's just telling the story as told to her by the sheriff. There would'nt be much sympathy for Jack if he was discovered doing something careless and did'nt know it. Could have been coaxed out of town under false pretenses and killed . My take.

tpe · « **Reply #194 on:** Aug 31, 2007, 07:53 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Aug 31, 2007, 07:50 AM

In some of these little one horse towns, law enforcement leaves a lot to be desired. May be she's just telling the story as told to her by the sheriff. There would'nt be much sympathy for Jack if he was discovered doing something careless and did'nt know it. Could have been coaxed out of town under false pretenses and killed . My take.

This is certainly a possibility, although I can't help but feel that she knew more than she told Ennis. And I do think she realized in the end who Ennis really was, and resented him for it.

myprivatejack · « **Reply #195 on:** Aug 31, 2007, 01:16 PM »

There is the possibility that you said,tpe,about a coincidence in something "sinful "done by Jack and seen for some homophobes, and the possibility that some of us say of a planned murder,being the instigator his father in law or not.In any case,Jack´s death was marked by intolerance,homophobia and stupidity;they were the real weapons, no matter the way they kill him in a physical sense.
And,of course,Lureen knew more than it seems,perhaps enraged if Jack was going to quit her soon;her words and the way of pronouncing them reflects this,the same than her wish of hurting Ennis in same way when she discovered he was the man against who she must fight for Jack´s (love?or social condition?).

tpe · « **Reply #196 on:** Sep 04, 2007, 11:22 AM »

You know, it had never been clear to me if Jack had actually told her about the divorce plans before he died. It would seem that he did, but I have no way of proving it. Lureen certainly had everything to gain to hide this fact after Jack had died. Perhaps she thought that Ennis must have known Jack's intention all along, and felt that Ennis saw through her in that scene.

lamusica · « **Reply #197 on:** Sep 04, 2007, 08:35 PM »

While I, too, think Jack was a victim of anti-gay violence, I take a bit of a different view of Lureen.
I don't find her cold in the phone scene with Ennis. I just find her to be tired. She is weary. Her voice reflects this deep weariness. So, I think Jack was killed and I think Lureen knew it all. I think she tried to believe the lie, and probably had repeated that lie so many times to relatives and friends, but, deep down, she knew better.
Perhaps she hadn't thought about Jack's death for a few weeks or months, then she gets Ennis's call. It all comes rushing back at her. When she figures out who Ennis is, she realizes what he was to Jack, so she gives her rote recitation once again.

It is the tears in her eyes that tell me she did love Jack at one time. Maybe things had gone sour in their marriage, but he still meant something to her. (Again, this is a great scene for Ann. She does a great job of playing a woman twice her age, and showing all those years on her face.)

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #198 on:** Sep 04, 2007, 09:06 PM »

I was just talking to someone about a half hour ago about this scene, Lamusica. I agree, I don't find her cold. I see it much like you do- I think that she may have had trouble reconciling possible rumors about Jack and Ennis's call pretty much confirmed that it was true. I do think she loved Jack at one time but I think her tears were more for herself when she got that confirmation. I never once thought that she had a hand in what happened to Jack and being in the he was murdered "camp" I do think she knew the truth of what happened to him. When I watched it this scene earlier it struck me as odd that she creamted him - like he wanted but didn't carry out the second part of what he wanted- to be scattered on BBM. I may be way off base but it struck me tonight that perhaps the cremation was necessary. :\'(

welshwitch · « **Reply #199 on:** Sep 04, 2007, 11:59 PM »

Most of the time I think the murder took place much as Ennis visualized it; then again, there are moments when I think Jack's death was simply an accident. In a way I like that - in the ss it talks about him drowning in his own blood because there was no-one there - had someone been there he could have been turned over and would/might have survived. This in turn takes me back to Ennis flipping Jack over in the FNIT scene and seems to have a symmetry about it which I like. In my darker moods I also like the idea of his death being pointless and a waste, just like so many things in life, because I have a nihilistic streak.

tpe · « **Reply #200 on:** Sep 05, 2007, 08:18 AM »

Interesting comments.

Personally, I do confess that I did think of her as a bit cold, but perhaps this is just me. The reason why is that he never seemed to have expressed that much interest or shared compassion when she talked with Ennis. I think here about all the times I talked with relatives of a dead friend, and in many cases, I saw an effort made to try to find out more about me and how I was a part of the dead man's life. Usually, I find the dead friend to be a sufficient bond to connect with those who knew him but I had never met before.

But this is certainly not foolproof. Perhaps Lureen didn't want to know -- she found out probably enough to know NOT to know any further. So perhaps my sense of her being a bit guarded is expected, given what she knew and what she thought Ennis didn't know.

edgar · « **Reply #201 on:** Sep 12, 2007, 11:39 PM »

Many of us probably think of Lureen as "cold" in this scene because we are familiar with the short story: "No doubt about it, she was polite but the little voice was cold as snow."

I think that AH and AL were working hard in this scene to get across the idea that Lureen knew about Jack's murder, knew lots of things. But I also think the "coldness" comes through. Certainly no one would mistake her manner for "warm" in this scene....

tpe · « **Reply #202 on:** Sep 14, 2007, 07:39 AM »

Quote from: edgar on Sep 12, 2007, 11:39 PM

Many of us probably think of Lureen as "cold" in this scene because we are familiar with the short story: "No doubt about it, she was polite but the little voice was cold as snow."

I think that AH and AL were working hard in this scene to get across the idea that Lureen knew about Jack's murder, knew lots of things. But I also think the "coldness" comes through. Certainly no one would mistake her manner for "warm" in this scene....

This is certainly the way I felt -- like she knew much more than she is letting on. The impression of coldness, I think, comes through in her glassy eyes and monotone rendition of her story. And yes, to be sure, there was no warmth to it, IMO.

myprivatejack · « **Reply #203 on:** Sep 14, 2007, 03:08 PM »

I´m absolutely convinced that Lureen knows more than it seems,that she´s hiding some other questions about Jack´s death to Ennis;as I said in a post in this same page,perhaps she felt angry because their marriage didn´t already work,or because ske knew Jack was going to quit her,or even because she suspected something about her husband´s other life.Or maybe because of all these situations,she choose close her eyes to what was going to happen to Jack,with her father´s "help" or not.I have always thought that she speaks in a rather despective way about a husband that has just died,don´t you feel so?,and tears only appears in her eyes when Ennis confirms her that BBM does exist ,confirming also somehow that he was her rival in Jack´s heart.One must suspect about her...

aintfoolin · « **Reply #204 on:** Sep 15, 2007, 03:58 AM »

She knew who Ennis was the "fishing buddy" . She was cold as ice in my opinion. Did'nt inquire as to how or when Ennis found out about Jack's death. He might have been Jack's good friend, he's definitly not hers. She was married to Jack for quite some time, Imo she became supicious of Jack,(" husbands never wanna dance with their wives" why is that Jack?) Jack replies " never give it any thought" Maybe he should've. She was cold towards Jack's best friend and I don't trust her story and the way she told it. I feel she knew alot more. The old man LD, (probably dead at this point), was gonna pay Jack to disappear. Jack ran it by Ennis in the reunion scene. So he had'nt taken the money yet, but did she know about this business? 20 years is a long time. Maybe Jack let something slip. Long time wives and lovers know the subtleties. My theory.

tpe · « **Reply #205 on:** Sep 17, 2007, 07:45 AM »

I certainly think that Lureen intentionally hid something. But more importantly, I think that it was only after Lureen spoke to Ennis that she finally got the full picture of who Jack really was. I think this realization came to her when Ennis confessed being together in BBM in 63 -- she tried to hide this realization. It probably disturbed her deeply as much as it opened her eyes to Jack's identity.

myprivatejack · « **Reply #206 on:** Sep 17, 2007, 10:47 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Sep 17, 2007, 07:45 AM

I certainly think that Lureen intentionally hid something. But more importantly, I think that it was only after Lureen spoke to Ennis that she finally got the full picture of who Jack really was. I think this realization came to her when Ennis confessed being together in BBM in 63 -- she tried to hide this realization. It probably disturbed her deeply as much as it opened her eyes to Jack's identity.

Of course,tpe,as I said in my former post,it´s clear that Lureen knows all about her husband after Ennis confirmed her that BBM exist,that it wasn´t a product of Jack´s fantasy.The tears that appear in her eyes are for me the confirmation that she realised that she was speaking with somebody very important in Jack´s life,and perhaps she also realised that more than her...Tears are for love,pain, or hurt pride?.

lamusica · « **Reply #207 on:** Sep 17, 2007, 12:31 PM »

Quote from: myprivatejack on Sep 17, 2007, 10:47 AM

Of course,tpe,as I said in my former post,it´s clear that Lureen knows all about her husband after Ennis confirmed her that BBM exist,that it wasn´t a product of Jack´s fantasy.The tears that appear in her eyes are for me the confirmation that she realised that she was speaking with somebody very important in Jack´s life,and perhaps she also realised that more than her...Tears are for love,pain, or hurt pride?.

I think Lureen's tears were for all three purposes. She loved Jack on some level. She hated the thought that he loved someone more than he loved her. And all this hurt her. The thought that her husband had a secret life/love was confirmed now, and that just brought on more pain. I don't think she is heartless. If she were, there would have been no tears, no pain, no love, no hurt pride. You can't hurt someone who doesn't care about you. Jack, or the thought of him, could still hurt Lureen. Thus, the conclusion that there was still a vestigial remain of love somewhere in her.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #208 on:** Sep 17, 2007, 02:20 PM »

To me it seems as both she and Ennis took Jack's love for granted when he lived, but yes, her tears were for her loss, but Jack gave insight into their marriage at least twice and it sounded as if there was not much left of love on either's part after all those years. Jack confided these things to Ennis and apparently his parents. Imo her tears do not dismiss the suspicion that she had more to do with , or knew more about the manner of Jack's death than she let on to Ennis over the phone, I don't think even Ennis believed her either.It's clear that they stayed married till death did the part, but it was Jack who loved Ennis, and wanted to be cremated and ashes sread on BBM, not Childress Texas.

lightnin flat · « **Reply #209 on:** Sep 17, 2007, 09:54 PM »

whenever i watch that scene i am never quite sure if when you see the flash back whether the thought is going through ennis,s mind even though the shot is on him at that moment or its going through laureen,s mind because she does know what happened to jack.
Not sure how jack died. But cant bare to think he was murdered by mindless thugs. :\'(