Author Topic: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler  (Read 116973 times)

Offline chameau

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #210 on: Sep 17, 2007, 11:31 PM »

    
           whenever i watch that scene i am never quite sure if when you see the flash back whether the thought is going through ennis,s mind even though the shot is on him at that moment or its going through laureen,s mind because she does know what happened to jack. 
      Not sure how jack died.  But cant bare to think he was murdered by mindless thugs.    :\'(

The short story is clear, it's going through Ennis's mind, I guess Ang Lee left this open deliberately in the movie.
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Offline tpe

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #211 on: Sep 18, 2007, 06:47 AM »
I think Lureen's tears were for all three purposes.  She loved Jack on some level.  She hated the thought that he loved someone more than he loved her.  And all this hurt her.  The thought that her husband had a secret life/love was confirmed now, and that just brought on more pain.  I don't think she is heartless.  If she were, there would have been no tears, no pain, no love, no hurt pride.  You can't hurt someone who doesn't care about you.  Jack, or the thought of him, could still hurt Lureen.  Thus, the conclusion that there was still a vestigial remain of love somewhere in her.

I do agree that deep down, there was still that core that fell in love with Jack so long ago, and continued to love him.  Even though she was a shell of her former self by then, I do agree that on a certain level, she was not heartless.  Her bitterness upon realizing the truth shows this -- one can't get hurt unless at a certain level, one really cared.  It wasn't just her pride, I think, that was hurt...




Offline jessicat80

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What does it imply of Ennis if Jack's death was really an accident?
« Reply #212 on: Apr 28, 2008, 08:56 AM »
I was thinking about the way we witness Jack's death through Ennis' mind, not actually through flashback, it is also implied in this shortstory that these are Ennis' views of what might have happened to Jack, not what actually happened. That we never truly know.

What if Jack's death was really just an accident? What is the meaning behind Ennis imagining his Jack was killed?

Does it excuse Ennis' treatment of Jack over 20 years if it means he was right about what happens to "guys like Jack"? Ennis believed if you are known to be gay, you will be killed. He "swears" to Jack in the end, and seems to want to live life in a new way (not missing out on important things, like making his daughter happy by attending her marriage), but it also seems to me that Jack's death could have confirmed his negative beliefs, meaning he will ultimately never allow himself to be who he really is.

Is Ennis' image of Jack's death an excuse for Ennis to continue "living" a life alone and miserable?
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Offline atalley

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I believe that Jack died by the tire iron and that Ennis felt guilty for not being there for him.  I think Ennis was swearing to Jack that he would never forget him, that he always loved him, and that he would keep his memory alive forever.  I think he probably would have visited Mrs. Twist and spent time keeping Jack's memory alive possibly visiting BBM many times. :f)

Offline jessicat80

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I believe that Jack died by the tire iron and that Ennis felt guilty for not being there for him.  I think Ennis was swearing to Jack that he would never forget him, that he always loved him, and that he would keep his memory alive forever.  I think he probably would have visited Mrs. Twist and spent time keeping Jack's memory alive possibly visiting BBM many times. :f)

I believe Jack was killed also(mainly from Lureen's emotions on the phone), but thought it was interesting that we are only allowed to see it through Ennis' eyes, not what happened exactly. I feel like it was true to the fact that only Ennis had ever really "seen" Jack. But I also thought it might be interesting if it was just what Ennis thought happened, like he believed that it would happen that way so much, that it could be the only explanation. But what if it was an accident?
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Offline chameau

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #215 on: Apr 28, 2008, 07:48 PM »
If you don't mind Jess, I merged the topic you started to this existing one.  There are 8 pages of many opinions, enjoy the read. :)

In my case, I guess I already posted this, I think the murder scene is in Ennis mind like suggested in the short story but it doesn't change anything to the fact that Jack die and Ennis loss of his lover.
La dictature c'est ''ferme ta geule'', la démocratie c'est ''cause toujours''
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Offline jessicat80

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #216 on: Apr 28, 2008, 07:55 PM »
If you don't mind Jess, I merged the topic you started to this existing one.  There are 8 pages of many opinions, enjoy the read. :)

In my case, I guess I already posted this, I think the murder scene is in Ennis mind like suggested in the short story but it doesn't change anything to the fact that Jack die and Ennis loss of his lover.

Oh cool, thanks so much Cham :^^)
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Offline tpe

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #217 on: Apr 29, 2008, 08:11 AM »
Jack's death as seen in the mind of Ennis could be reality or could be a mental reflex.  After all, this was what Ennis feared all along, and perhaps he projected the possibility into the circumstances of Jack's death.

But there was certainly something incomplete in Lureen's version of Jack's death, as seen in the movie.  I have no coubt in my mind that Ang Lee wanted us to think that Jack died the way Ennis imagined it.  Lureen certainly seemed to be hiding something, and I think the conversation scene between Ennis and Lureen was a masterpiece of subtlety and suggestion.


Offline myprivatejack

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #218 on: Apr 29, 2008, 11:24 AM »
Jack's death as seen in the mind of Ennis could be reality or could be a mental reflex.  After all, this was what Ennis feared all along, and perhaps he projected the possibility into the circumstances of Jack's death.

But there was certainly something incomplete in Lureen's version of Jack's death, as seen in the movie.  I have no coubt in my mind that Ang Lee wanted us to think that Jack died the way Ennis imagined it.  Lureen certainly seemed to be hiding something, and I think the conversation scene between Ennis and Lureen was a masterpiece of subtlety and suggestion.

The way we see Jack's death is rather ambiguous and open to many interpretations,as many other quotes,scenes and images in the movie,and that's one of its greatness...It can be the same a projection of Ennis fears while listening Laureen's explanation than a way of illustrating his real death as a way of proving to the viewer that Lureen was indeed hiding the truth-or,at least,changing it in her own way...-.It's,of course,clear that she knows anything that have could have a great rapport with her husband's death; maybe her father is implied in it and she doesn't mind because she feels disgusted by knowing Jack was willing to leave her.I've always believed that she suspected something that her conversation with Ennis only get to confirm in any way.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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babytammy7

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #219 on: Apr 29, 2008, 03:03 PM »
What makes me doubt about if Ennis version is right is that Earl died because of a tire iron, and then those men killed Jack not with a bat, or with a gun, or with an iron bar or whatever, but with a tire iron. Then after Jack's death Ennis dreamed about their time in the mountain and a can of beans, and the "spoon handle was the kind that could be used as a tire iron".

I think Lureen was stunned not because she was not saying the truth, but because it's always hard talking about someone you loved and now is dead. Jack was his husband, no matter that they no longer loved each other. She broke down just when Ennis said to her that BBM was a real place. Maybe she understood that she never really "knew" his husband, that other people knew him better. Or maybe she felt bad saying those things about Jack always dreaming and saying silly things, when he was sharing with her the things he loved. She knew then that she must have given Jack more credit than that.

Well, just MHO. Thanks.  ^f^

Offline lamusica

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #220 on: Apr 29, 2008, 03:04 PM »
Jack's death as seen in the mind of Ennis could be reality or could be a mental reflex.  After all, this was what Ennis feared all along, and perhaps he projected the possibility into the circumstances of Jack's death.

But there was certainly something incomplete in Lureen's version of Jack's death, as seen in the movie.  I have no coubt in my mind that Ang Lee wanted us to think that Jack died the way Ennis imagined it.  Lureen certainly seemed to be hiding something, and I think the conversation scene between Ennis and Lureen was a masterpiece of subtlety and suggestion.



Absolutely, a masterpiece.  There is more good acting in that one scene than you can find in many a complete movie.  While still leaving some room for doubt, I agree that everything leans towards a violent death for Jack as Ennis envisioned.  But it is the UNCERTAINTY that makes this scene so memorable and so sad.  Lureen cried for a reason -- whether that was because she really had loved JAck and was regretting his death, or whether she regretted that he was gay and got caught and killed.  There will always be an edge of doubt in my mind, but I certainly think Annie wanted that when she wrote the ss, and Ang stayed true to that point: leave it up to the viewer.
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Offline tpe

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #221 on: Apr 30, 2008, 09:29 AM »
Thanks MPJ, Tammy, and lamusica for your insights.

While I tend to agree withn MPJ and lamusica, I do see Tammy's point.  But even this does not exactly run counter to MPJ's and lamusica's comment aboit the uncertainly of it all.

I tend to group Ennis's vision of Jack's death together with the dream sequences in the story.  After all, the closing sequence with the spoon and the tire iron does seem to put Ennis's vision as a kind of dream, no?  Still, cinematically speaking, Ang Lee's intentions seem to imply such a death for Jack -- be it ever so subtly.  Whatever the true nature of Jack's death, Ennis viewed it as some kind of retribution, of which he was partly to blame.


Offline aintfoolin

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #222 on: Apr 30, 2008, 04:04 PM »
Just following the conversations here but to me there's something about her explaination that just does'nt sit right with me. Ennis did'nt believe her. Niether do I. First of all she coud have contacted Ennis through the address on the postcard about Pine Creek. Jack used to mention Ennis to her and she had to know that after 20 years of "fishing" trips" by her husband with Ennis, she knew this was not just any friend, and this was one address Jack did'nt keep in his head. There was corresponence through postcards from Ennis coming to the home. ( unless Jack used a post office box unbeKnownst to her). She claimed she did'nt know where Brokeback Mt. was, yet she had to have some correspondence with Mr or Mrs. Twist who definitly knew it was a real place. Jack had told her, she wanted the ashes spread there and she just did'nt bother with the details of the matter. There was too much resentment towards Ennis in her voice, and too many *unecessay* detail of his injuries when he died. ( broken nose and jaw...etc as if this speech had been rehearsed imo.) I just did'nt believe her story. Think she knew way more than she was saying. I think she found out Jack's secret and that she knew Jack was gonna leave her. Imo she may have loved him at one time, but finding out her marriage was a lie may have drove her to desperate measures. Maybe she did something rash.She's sure his parents was appreciate it if Jack's wishes where carried out, " about the ashes I mean" ...well what other wishes did Jack tell her about? Would she appreciate it as well? Hmmmm. She hangs up on Ennis without saying goodbye? Appeared to have no sympathy for him.  Sorry,Ennis was the only one seeking to have Jack's wishes carried out, the only one.I'm Still not buying it. 
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline jessicat80

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #223 on: Apr 30, 2008, 04:34 PM »
There was too much resentment towards Ennis in her voice, and too many *unecessay* detail of his injuries when he died. ( broken nose and jaw...etc as if this speech had been rehearsed imo.)
........... Imo she may have loved him at one time,
..................She's sure his parents was appreciate it if Jack's wishes where carried out, " about the ashes I mean" ...well what other wishes did Jack tell her about?

 I agree, I thought Anne Hathaway played Lureen perfectly in this scene, I definitely felt the explanation was rehearsed.
I also do believe she loved Jack at one time...maybe even still...
I think she knew though, that he wasn't happy with her, I think that's what she meant by "his wishes carried out...about the ashes I mean" She knew he true wishes in life were never fulfilled with her.
"I’d rather live in his world…..than live without him….in mine."                                       (Midnight Train to Georgia)

Offline Tony

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #224 on: Apr 30, 2008, 04:37 PM »
  As far as how Jack died, we are really in one area that both the film and the SS wanted us to leave it open, and all the people involved said so.
In this case, then, speculation is maddening, because we could come up with a most probable version, and yet, their intent was to confirm nothing.
For me, the most probable version was that Jack was playing both LaShawn AND her husband, the latter also being the one Jack tilted towards and wanted to bring to Lightning Flat.  That would be the key.  In making the decision to end the phony marriage to LaShawn, the cat was out of the bag, and so Jack was murdered by a group of thugs hired by Lureen's father (and the blurred scene would then be nearly accurate), or by LaShawn's husband, as it all fell apart.  But there probably was a murder and a cover-up.  Still, for various reasons, the question was meant to never be settled.
  As for Lureen knowing,  Anne Hathaway was asked on "The View" or "Oprah" whether she played the scene as her knowing of Ennis and Jack.  She was reluctant to say but finally admitted she played it as knowing of the relationship.  Here again, the actors contributed to the final version by their own interpretations.  Even so, as I saw the scene, she knew 99%, and Ennis call made it 100% and it broke her heart, bitch that she was, because she really did love Jack.  Strangely enough, she did not seem to be bitter it was another man, but that she never had his full love (not that she deserved it).  The main contribution I could make here, then, is that, in the film, the actors interpretations, on their own, with no instructions from Ang Lee, entered into what was to become the very final version of BBM.

Offline jessicat80

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #225 on: Apr 30, 2008, 04:42 PM »
 
For me, the most probable version was that Jack was playing both LaShawn AND her husband, the latter also being the one Jack tilted towards and wanted to bring to Lightning Flat.  That would be the key.  In making the decision to end the phony marriage to LaShawn, the cat was out of the bag, and so Jack was murdered by a group of thugs hired by Lureen's father (and the blurred scene would then be nearly accurate), or by LaShawn's husband, as it all fell apart.  But there probably was a murder and a cover-up.  Still, for various reasons, the question was meant to never be settled.
  
Wow, interesting theories...I never imagined Jack wanting Lashawn though, I felt he just said that 'cause Ennis would accept "another woman". Never thought about Lureen's dad having anything to do with it either, interesting.
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babytammy7

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #226 on: Apr 30, 2008, 05:13 PM »
 As far as how Jack died, we are really in one area that both the film and the SS wanted us to leave it open, and all the people involved said so.
In this case, then, speculation is maddening, because we could come up with a most probable version, and yet, their intent was to confirm nothing.
For me, the most probable version was that Jack was playing both LaShawn AND her husband, the latter also being the one Jack tilted towards and wanted to bring to Lightning Flat.  That would be the key.  In making the decision to end the phony marriage to LaShawn, the cat was out of the bag, and so Jack was murdered by a group of thugs hired by Lureen's father (and the blurred scene would then be nearly accurate), or by LaShawn's husband, as it all fell apart.  But there probably was a murder and a cover-up.  Still, for various reasons, the question was meant to never be settled.
 

Well, friend I'm confused here. In the SS Annie tells us that LD (Lureen's father) was dead when Ennis and Jack had their last argument. Because of that I never thought that he hired Jack's killers. I don't know if in the film LD was dead too...

Down in Texas Jack’s father-in-law died and Lureen, who inherited the farm-equipment business, showed a skill for management and hard deals.

About Randall....well, Jack was gonna bring him to LF and live with him, and he was gay and he had a sexual relationship with Jack for almost 4 or 5 years (like the OS says) so I don't think he had reasons to kill Jack. Ang filmed a scene (deleted now) where some mechanics men saw Randall was with Jack in Jack's truck on a road. So those men had nothing to do with Randall....And even Randall could be in danger too.

And about Jack being with Lashawn, I have to admit I thought about it, because Annie told us in the SS that Jack didn't say the truth to Ennis when he said that he had not been with other men during the 4 years they were apart, when in fact he was riding more than bulls. But Annie didn't say that Jack was not saying the truth when he said that he was having sex with the wife of a rancher. Maybe the rancher Jack wanted to bring to LF was not the same who was married with the woman Jack was with. Who knows? But I'm talking about the SS not the film. So I don't know. Maybe I'm sooooooo wrong. I'm just rambling.

Love, friend.  :^^)

Offline Tony

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #227 on: Apr 30, 2008, 08:14 PM »
  Hi, Baby Tammy - as usual, I was working from the film, not the SS, and, yes, in the SS, LD was dead.  We don't like to admit it, but the whole of BBM evolved towards the final version, and there, even the actors changed things.  At one point, Jake said he was playing Jack as a straight guy, but he retreated under pressure.
  I do think it is very significant how the actors, by interpreting their roles, became more than mere players following a script, but joined into the co-creation of the final version.  We can jump around all we want, from SS to screenplay, to working screenplay, to editing, but there IS a final version.
And there again, where there are missing scenes, that, too, points to something Ang Lee did NOT want in that final version and so therefore tells us something.  That they were filmed is of interest.  That they were left out, tells us so very much more.
  All of what I said was speculation, but, given the open territory they deliberately left us, it does come to mind that when Jack talked Randall into leaving his wife and going to Lightning Flat, effectively, they "outted" themselves.  Which does leave the possibility LD freaked (and he did have the resources to rustle up some thugs), that Randall found out Jack was ALSO boinging his wife, and either of these could have led to murder.  It was deliberate for the creators of the film to give no final answer, so there never will be one.  But at the very least, there was more the suggestion of SOME kind of murder and cover-up, rather than the very lame tale of a bizarre, freakish accident.  And poor Ennis was left, like us, to interpret it his own way.
   Baby Tammy, we've got to stop meeting like this. People are beginning to talk.  How can we elope and flee to Lithuania, if they piece together the clues?  We gotta be more discreet. ::)

Offline tpe

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #228 on: May 01, 2008, 08:20 AM »
I agree, I thought Anne Hathaway played Lureen perfectly in this scene, I definitely felt the explanation was rehearsed.
I also do believe she loved Jack at one time...maybe even still...
I think she knew though, that he wasn't happy with her, I think that's what she meant by "his wishes carried out...about the ashes I mean" She knew he true wishes in life were never fulfilled with her.

I think it was one of the great acting scenes in the movie.  It was magnificent.


Offline tpe

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #229 on: May 01, 2008, 08:26 AM »
Very interesting exhange here, Tony and Tammy!  Thanks to both of you.

About the question to Hathaway at the Oprah interview...

Tony, it has been a while since I had seen the Oprah interview, but I do remember Oprah asking Hathaway about the scene: did she know?  She seemed most reluctant to answer the question , adn I am not sure if she really admitted it point-blank.  But I tend to think that she did, in a way.   I think the audience did too.


Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #230 on: May 01, 2008, 09:43 AM »
It's been a while since I've watched the Oprah interview too but if memory serves, when Anne was asked the question she said something like "I thought it was obvious". But like I said, it's been a long time since I've watched it.

I loved reading all of the exchanges- I'm in the murdered camp. But I don't think it was some set up by Lureen or anyone else. I just think Jack was found out and the "fine people" of Childress were not going to tolerate that in their town.  >:(

    Even so, as I saw the scene, she knew 99%, and Ennis call made it 100% and it broke her heart,

That's how I feel- she had some suspicions/confirmation that Jack was gay and Ennis's call wiped away any chance for denial on her part. Finding out your whole life wasn't what you thought is certainly not an easy thing. Part of me debates on Lureen's telling Ennis that Jack's parents had half of the ashes- sometimes I think it was an act of generosity on her part because she didn't owe him two seconds of her time or more information than he was seeking. And other times I think she was just setting him up for more hurt because she had to know how Jack's father was and that Ennis would get shot down; I'm sure at some point Jack would have mentioned how the old man was. It just bothers me that she made no attempt to carry out his wishes- she did what she pleased and kept him split between Texas and Wyoming.

I don't think there is meant to be a resolution as to how he died. We truly become Ennis here, IMO. We just don't know and never will. On the one hand it does seem to be "convenient" to have Jack murdered the way Ennis always feared but then again he spent almost his entire life being afraid of the tire iron so it is logical that that would be the weapon he imagines. I think Lureen's story was just too rehearsed and as aintfoolin' said she would have known Ennis's name- how could she not? I know I've said this in the past and in other similar threads but I think that after that last meeting, when Jack finally realized/accepted that BBM really was a one shot thing (in terms of freedom to love each other), that he got reckless. Maybe he picked a fight with the wrong person, maybe he was outed, but I think finding out after all that time that they’d never got much farther than that was devestating to him, maybe the door closing on his dream and he had nothing left to cling to.
“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

babytammy7

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #231 on: May 01, 2008, 01:06 PM »
  Baby Tammy, we've got to stop meeting like this. People are beginning to talk.  How can we elope and flee to Lithuania, if they piece together the clues?  We gotta be more discreet. ::)


 ;D ;D ;D  :^^) :^^) :^^)



I know I've said this in the past and in other similar threads but I think that after that last meeting, when Jack finally realized/accepted that BBM really was a one shot thing (in terms of freedom to love each other), that he got reckless. Maybe he picked a fight with the wrong person, maybe he was outed, but I think finding out after all that time that they’d never got much farther than that was devestating to him, maybe the door closing on his dream and he had nothing left to cling to.

 :\'( :\'( That's so sad Michelle. But on the other hand I'm so happy because you're here again!!! Missed your posts!!!  ^f^  :ghug:

babytammy7

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #232 on: May 01, 2008, 01:34 PM »
Well, something gets me thinking here. If Jack was murdered it’s like saying: “Ok, then, Ennis was RIGHT THE WHOLE TIME!!! Jack dreams were stupid, crazy, dangerous and useless. Living like you want, loving like you need means that you’re gonna die, no matter what. You can NOT be happy and be free if you’re gay, so you know, being gay is wrong.”
If Jack really was murdered, how can we think and hope that Ennis, after find the shirts, had been different towards their relationship when he just took the confirmation of his theory? Oooouuuchhhh, my shit English!!! ::) ::) Sorry. What I’m trying to say is that we all think that Ennis had learned the lesson and he was going to live his life differently. But how we can hope that Ennis be in peace with himself if he just knows now that he was right and being with another man leads you to death?
Maybe if Jack died in an accident we can learn that we have to fight to get what we need, without fears, without doubts, because not always there are tire irons out there waiting for us. We can see Ennis regret for not believe in it before. The film shows us that we can not live afraid. Life is so short. Love is right no matter what your sex is. But if Jack was really murdered, well, that only shows that you better don’t be yourself and don’t try to live your dream like Jack tried, because you are gonna end like Jack…

I know, this makes no sense, and I know you all are gonna kick my ass for this lame post. But I’ve spent the last two years crying my eyes out, day after day, because I always thought that Jack was murdered, and I can not stand this pain and sadness anymore. So since two months ago I’ve decided that Jack died in an accident, and I’m trying to believe in this with all my strength, because with it maybe I’ll find so peace at last. I don’t wanna think Jack was murdered, I don’t!!! So I keep talking about my new theory about his accident, trying to prove something, because I don’t want to believe in your posts, I just can’t right now. It hurts so much.  :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(

Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #233 on: May 01, 2008, 02:54 PM »
 :ghug: Tammy. I think at the end of the day it doesn't matter how Jack died, he is gone. Jack could've gotten into an accident and died while driving to/from one of their trips or choked or lots of other things could've caused his death and I think it's just the fact that Jack is gone that propels Ennis forward a bit. Do I think if Jack was murdered that Ennis thought he was right to keep Jack at bay all of those years? No. I think when he received that post card and then ultimately found the shirts that he realized there were worse things than tire irons in this world- and one was regret. Regret for not taking that chance to have a life together- even if it got them both killed. I think he would've faced an army of tire irons to have a chance to ranch up with Jack after getting the card/finding the shirts. I always see him finding the shirts as a confirmation of love and a guiding hand from Jack- one last I love you in a sense but I also see it as that moment in which Ennis realized there is a fate worse than death. Living with the would'ves and could'ves and should'ves.  He had no more control over the realtionship and it's terms. I think that's why he first tells Junior that he can't go to her wedding and then he relents- he's already pushed away one person whom he dearly loved and learned the hard way that we're not always promised next time. Look at how he called Lureen and then went to the Twist ranch- he outed himself to some degree and that showed a lot of growth and innder strength on his part. So he did learn a lesson, at least imo. It was too late for him in terms of Jack but not with his daughters and if something good came out of Jack's death it was that.
“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

Offline Tony

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #234 on: May 01, 2008, 03:04 PM »
     Baby Tammy, it's not a lame post, and the creators of BBM very definitely wanted this one issue left open.  So feel free, and justified, in looking at that version- accident.  Strangely enough, I have read of a similar accident, locally, so it's not impossible.
    But you got me to thinking - what if Ennis WAS right: being gay can be a death sentence.  I'd have to say, there IS danger to being a gay person.
Yet, life being what it is, those tire irons are out there waiting for all kinds of people.  Life is dangerous for a convenience store clerk, for celebrities, for politicians, for police officers, for women walking alone.... I guess the real sadness is past even Ennis' fears: we all live in a very troubled world.
  I don't think Ennis' fears were irrational, even if stemming from what he saw as a child.  But the film and SS left the actual cause of death very open to interpretation, so you need not apologize.  Love, Tony.

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #235 on: May 02, 2008, 07:31 AM »
BT,

I have said in other posts that I have not been able to watch ( Ennis's version ) of Jack's death. and that's it ...someone's vision or version of it. It's very disturbing and sensesless. It stayed  with me for along time after the first time I watched so I just skip that scene.  Anything else is left to speculation because we are not privy to his actual death. It's a book of *conspiracy theories because we don't know the truth.

Ennis chooses to believe this from his own fear.  His personal worst/case scenario.This is what he feared the most. I was sittin there watching this film for the firsr time NOT expecting Jack to die.  He was so full of life throughout the film. Flower Child is right , and so is Tony. It's a dangerous world out there. Especially for openly gay men  in rural areas then and now. Death can be lurking  anywhere, and I do think Jack knew those dangers. He respected Ennis by keeping it all on the down low like he  needed it to be . Met out in the middle of nowhere cause Ennis wanted /needed it that  way . So did he.   Life can be found also and Jack chose to hope, dream , and live,  his  love , givin from his heart in spite of the danger. inspite of being in love with Ennis, his handsome cowboy. I feel this  is another thing Ennis realized as he hugged the shirts. He only knows one thing at that moment, it is better to be with Jack than without him and that had he been there like Jack wanted, Jack would still be alive.  He finds he was wrong

No one can fault you for having your own version of it.  Tony's right, The writers left this open for that purpose. He is gone, did we see what actually  happened? No. It's all in what you percieve it to be. The ending is there for us, the viewer to interpret...anyway we want. I just don't believe farmboy , rodeo ridin ,travelin , Jack Twist did'nt know how to change a tire without  gettin killed.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

babytammy7

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #236 on: May 02, 2008, 11:20 AM »
Michelle, Tony and AF, thank you so much for your words!! I needed them.  ^f^  :ghug:  :^^)

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #237 on: May 02, 2008, 03:53 PM »
I found it interesting that Ennis asked Lureen if Jack was " buried down there" , wants to know where the ashes are. Lureen tells him they put a stone up and the ashes were divided between her and Jack's parents.

Some time passed before Ennis even knew of Jack's death.  Ennis was stunned .Jack's parents knew their son was gay and knew of Ennis Del Mar.  Ennis finds that Jack had talked about him, but  Ennis really did'nt know to what degree.

 Jack's father also knew Jack wanted the ashes scatterd on Brokeback.  He knew where Brokeback Mt was, for sure. Just something about the way he said that.(" thought he was to g-ddamned special to be buried in the family plot")  Ennis comes  to Lightning Flat at Lureen's suggestion to see that Jack's wishes were carried out...." about the ashes I mean", like Lureen said. Sounds to me like there's something going on between Mr. Twist and Lureen. I know I can be a conspiracy theorist but,

 Just  a few interesting points imo.  Some speculation, but...well, I think Lureen knew about Jack and Ennis.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline Tony

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #238 on: May 02, 2008, 04:48 PM »
  That was interesting, Aintfoolin, and got me to wondering along another line.  I agree with you, Lureen knew the Twists fairly well, as in-laws, and maybe the father more.  But now I wonder....did Lureen know how Jack actually died?  She told Ennis in sort of a sing-song rehearsed way.  And, of course, if scandal was involved, would gladly go along with a cover-up, to keep her son clear of taunting.  But going further, if SHE knew it was murder, then would the Twists have known, also?
  This is all way, way into speculation, but it's not as if we don't do that, as we see fit.  And Aintfoolin, you found it unlikely anyone with Jack's background would have a deadly mistake changing a tire.  Now, I wonder if Old Man Twist could have resisted making remarks about Jack's ineptness, if he actually believed that was the cause of death.  And we don't hear the Mom saying anything about the unique tragedy.  On the contrary, she behaves as would a woman who knew her son was repeatedly talking about pairing up with a male, and then heard sudden and unlikely information as to cause of death.  I don't recall anyone ever going this far into speculating, in this general area, but, I guess some booby had to do it and....I was available.  Both mother and father seemed unusually quiet about the death itself.

Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #239 on: May 02, 2008, 06:45 PM »
  That was interesting, Aintfoolin, and got me to wondering along another line.  I agree with you, Lureen knew the Twists fairly well, as in-laws, and maybe the father more.  But now I wonder....did Lureen know how Jack actually died?  She told Ennis in sort of a sing-song rehearsed way.  And, of course, if scandal was involved, would gladly go along with a cover-up, to keep her son clear of taunting.  But going further, if SHE knew it was murder, then would the Twists have known, also?
  This is all way, way into speculation, but it's not as if we don't do that, as we see fit.  And Aintfoolin, you found it unlikely anyone with Jack's background would have a deadly mistake changing a tire.  Now, I wonder if Old Man Twist could have resisted making remarks about Jack's ineptness, if he actually believed that was the cause of death.  And we don't hear the Mom saying anything about the unique tragedy.  On the contrary, she behaves as would a woman who knew her son was repeatedly talking about pairing up with a male, and then heard sudden and unlikely information as to cause of death.  I don't recall anyone ever going this far into speculating, in this general area, but, I guess some booby had to do it and....I was available.  Both mother and father seemed unusually quiet about the death itself.

hmm thats intresting i think lureen knew the truth but jacks parents i hadnt really thought much about that your evidence seems to support that though...