Author Topic: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler  (Read 117029 times)

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #240 on: May 02, 2008, 07:01 PM »
Thanx Tony, I agree. Having the mystery surrounding Jack's death left open like this invites much speculation.., We could easily put "in all likelyhood" in front of our own personal perspectives basing it on the info we do have.

In my opinion, Lureen is the key. She would have first hand info concerning the circumstances of Jack's death. She could share that info with whomever she pleased. There had to be some form of communication between  Her and Jack's parents for them to end up with half the ashes. *Arrangements* were made long before Ennis even knew of the death of Jack.  She directed Ennis there for answers. He was was met with humiliation from Mr. Twist,but Mrs. Twist seemed to search for answers from Ennis herself. She only had Lureen's story to go on apparently.
There was no mention of any services held and Lurren did'nt say anything about the parents traveling to Texas to attend any memorials. A stone was put up in Texas and arrangements were made for the grieving parents to recieve half the ashes. That's it. Period.
 Seems to me no real attempts were made to contact any one outside Childress except the parents.  " Jack kept all his friends's addresses in his head". Do we really know this? We still don't know if they ( the parents)  believed he was murdered or not, but they were awful quiet as you say Tony, about the manner of their son's death. I'm very suspicious of Mr. Twist with his boastful " I know where Brokeback Mt is".  It's almost like he knew the significance of it. Did he and Lureen ever discuss Ennis?

 His knowing his son is gay+ several mentions of Ennis Del Mar from Jack himself, + his knowledge of Brokeback , add  Jack's untimley death and ya got  something he does'nt want to acknowledge and  wants to put away from him ASAP!. His refusal to release the ashes to Ennis is part of his on-going battle with Jack against his true nature and lifestyle with Ennis imo. As long as he had the ashes, Jack's lover did'nt and surely he was'nt gonna honor Jack's wishes by having them spread on Brokeback Mt, where Jack and Ennis found love. Ennis was'nt family, so he deserved and got nothing from him.
 Jack made his last wishes known  while still alive, and everybody, except Ennis ignored that. It all seems so de-personalized to me and that's because imo, someone has something to hide.

 If Lureen  had something to do with Jack's death, or knew more, she could make up anything.  Who'd suspect otherwise, except Ennis?  I don't think she expected Ennis to call.  When he did, she did'nt seem to sympathetic over Jack's best friend's feelings.  In fact, she resented him. It's indeed speculation on our part, but  who'd question the *greiving *widow? How did Jack die? We don't actually know, but we can guess. right?
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline Tony

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #241 on: May 02, 2008, 10:23 PM »
  Yeah, Aintfoolin, that sure was spite on Old Man Twist's part to deny Ennis the ashes.  He had to have known Ennis was Jack's one love, with those many years of Jack talking of bringing Ennis there to fix the place up and the two of them live together.  "Ennis Del Mar...he used to say..". And he was definitely twisting the knife by telling Ennis Jack had found another man to bring there.  Oh, yeah, he knew.
  But we can also tell that Jack had reached a point where he didn't give a damn what his father thought.  As the father grew older, and couldn't take care of the place himself, he knew he needed even Jack's regular visits, which were work visits, doing what he could for his parents. And lost his power base.
  It's also posible there was a grudging love between the two.  We really don't see homophobia in the old man so much as resentment of Jack's being a dreamer and having such a strong life force.  Something the father may once have wanted for himself but could not have.  In fact, in the scenes with him and Ennis, we see an old man full of resentment, but seemingly not directly critical of Jack's clear preference for bringing a male there, to live with.
  One thing we do know - he knew about Ennis and was not going to let him have his son's ashes.  Old Man Twist may well have been a rare breed-rodeo cowboy when young, bitter old man when life left him no longer able to rule the roost.
  Something else.  He saw the shirts.  He showed no curiosity, nor surprise.  Is that normal for a guest to take away a dead son's clothing?  I think the mother and father had long before come to terms with Jack's love, of whatever kind it was, for Ennis, and as was the custom in those parts, said little, and knew most all. 
  They all had secrets.  And how Jack died would also have been one of them, that they knew.

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #242 on: May 03, 2008, 01:27 AM »
  Yeah, Aintfoolin, that sure was spite on Old Man Twist's part to deny Ennis the ashes.  He had to have known Ennis was Jack's one love, with those many years of Jack talking of bringing Ennis there to fix the place up and the two of them live together.  "Ennis Del Mar...he used to say..". And he was definitely twisting the knife by telling Ennis Jack had found another man to bring there.  Oh, yeah, he knew.
  But we can also tell that Jack had reached a point where he didn't give a damn what his father thought.  As the father grew older, and couldn't take care of the place himself, he knew he needed even Jack's regular visits, which were work visits, doing what he could for his parents. And lost his power base.
  It's also posible there was a grudging love between the two.  We really don't see homophobia in the old man so much as resentment of Jack's being a dreamer and having such a strong life force.  Something the father may once have wanted for himself but could not have.  In fact, in the scenes with him and Ennis, we see an old man full of resentment, but seemingly not directly critical of Jack's clear preference for bringing a male there, to live with.
  One thing we do know - he knew about Ennis and was not going to let him have his son's ashes.  Old Man Twist may well have been a rare breed-rodeo cowboy when young, bitter old man when life left him no longer able to rule the roost.
  Something else.  He saw the shirts.  He showed no curiosity, nor surprise.  Is that normal for a guest to take away a dead son's clothing?  I think the mother and father had long before come to terms with Jack's love, of whatever kind it was, for Ennis, and as was the custom in those parts, said little, and knew most all. 
  They all had secrets.  And how Jack died would also have been one of them, that they knew.

 Thanx Tony , another excellent post from you . I always love them because you tend to make me either see things more clearly or in a different way and I appreciate that.  Some of these characters are very complicated  male and female., for instance the old man was indeed bitter, very bitter towards Jack. I can definitly see it as resentment from not realizing his own dreams whatever they may  have been, gave himself away by saying Jack thought he was "too special"  to rest in the family plot. Nah, truth is,  HE thought Jack thought that. but why would he abuse his own child the way he did in the ss.  His resentment of Jack may have started earlier than we thought,but I do agree with you that deep down inside, even he had some love for Jack somewhere, though he had a funny way of showing it.
 When Jack died, he came face to face with what his resentment of who  his son was. Yes, I'm saying he knew Jack was gay, knew his son wasn't bringing home  pretty young girls to build a life with, but his choice was bringing  home men to build a cabin and live with., Ennis, then Randall. and here was Ennis, living proof in his kitchen. Never drew a shotgun on either boys, Jack, or Ennis that we know of, but allowed both into his home, but I bet when he got riled, he had a few choice words for his gay son and Ennis. Maybe  I did'nt see homophobia, but I did see frustration, bitterness and yes ,some disgust. When Jack died, I feel he felt bitter and resentmentful at Jack and Ennis but maybe a large part of it was, resentment towards himself too for so long not being able to accept his own son and his own life failures.. For all his attempts to break Jack,  Jack was'nt him or like him and never became him ,though Jack turned to achohol abuse to deal with rejection.  Perhaps a silent, understood , cautious, truce was reached  between them over the years.  Maybe they had * the talk* , you know the one I mean where between older father and older son, everything is said, yet not one complete sentence is uttered between them?  It's just understood how one another feels. Who knows?, but Jack never forgot how to show unconditional  love. He still went back to help him out with the ranch, but  Can't say the same for the old man. 

Several people knew about the *secret* including Lureen imo, but no one was gonna say anything to the point out loud. A woman does'nt stay married to a man for 20 years and never suspect his sexuality with these goings on. Believe me , I've personally  been that route before. She knew.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #243 on: May 03, 2008, 07:14 AM »
i think it was pretty obviosue that when Ennis spoke to lureen that she knew exactly what the deal was and had for some time IMO, she had that tone in her voice...

babytammy7

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #244 on: May 03, 2008, 10:16 AM »


  Jack made his last wishes known  while still alive, and everybody, except Ennis ignored that.

And everybody knew about Jack wishes when he was alive except Ennis.....


  Something else.  He saw the shirts.  He showed no curiosity, nor surprise.  Is that normal for a guest to take away a dead son's clothing?  

I always wonder why OMT and Mama T didn't say anything when Ennis took the shirts....I think most of the parents would let old close friends take something from their son....but I think they would ask before what that is and why that...or something like that.

I keep thinking Lureen was sad for his husband and she was bitter too because she knew that Ennis knew Jack better than her, knowing that BBM was a real place, and realizing that Jack's favorite place was the place where Ennis and he met.

I think that T parents were so quiet because some months passed before Ennis came, so they were more quiet, having accepted the lost already. I think Jack's mom was always a quiet person; having a husband so dominant and cruel she probably couldn't speak too much in that house and say the things she really wanted....And about OMT, I think he was quiet because of the time and because he was a man of a few words, so bitter and ironic to make a real proper comment about his son death. Tony said that he would have said something about Jack being so stupid to die in an accident like that. But I think he that was no necessary because he didn't knew Ennis so he didn't knew if Ennis would have reacted bad, and Mama T was there and maybe that would have been too much and she would have said something. Besides, he already laughed at his son saying that Jack thought he was too special......
I know that they or at least she knew about her son.....but why everybody think that they all knew (Lureen, OMT and Mama) that Ennis was Jack's love just simply because they were friends for 20 years? I met my best friend 18 years ago. We are one, believe me. We share everything and she even said to my family and friends that if she was a man she would love me, and that she loves me more than his boyfriend or any man...And no one think we are lovers. Yeah, Jack said that he was gonna bring a man, but my friend and I have grown saying that we are gonna live together no matter what and not even men are gonna stop that....

I know I'm rambling here.....but I wanted to say that. I hope that makes some sense.  ::)

AF, I know what you think about Lureen knowing and I agree....but I have a friend who was married for 32 years and she never knew that his husband had another family and another house....wife and girls..... And the SS said that Lureen was so occupied with business that she never took care of what Jack was doing...because she had noticed how much money Jack spent in his trips (not with Ennis only), like the SS said Jack did.

Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #245 on: May 03, 2008, 10:33 AM »
great post tammy :)

Offline welshwitch

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #246 on: May 03, 2008, 10:43 AM »
Jack must have brought the shirts home after the first summer on Brokeback and I don't see him taking them on the rodeo circuit, so they must have been in his room ever since. No way that his mother wouldn't know that one of the shirts wasn't his; she must have been the one who ironed the ones he owned. So she had to know that one belonged to another man, and why would it be kept unless it had some special significance to Jack? So she must have known, or at least guessed, that Jack was gay. Then again he never apparently brought any girls home; when he married Lureen it was far away and there's no indication that his parents and his wife ever met.

When they got the news that he was dead, in an accident if Lureen told them the same as she told Ennis,would they accept that he had died in such a fashion? Or did mother, and even father, possibly suspect that he had been the victim of homophobes? If so, what could they do? They were too far away to ask questions, and probably wouldn't have got far if they had done. So did his mother just accept it as another in a string of unhappy experiences? And did the old man in his bitter fashion think that it served Jack right for being queer? He certainly appears to loathe and resent Ennis when he appears.

In the end they know very little about Jack's death. We don't either and can only speculate.

Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #247 on: May 03, 2008, 10:48 AM »
Jack must have brought the shirts home after the first summer on Brokeback and I don't see him taking them on the rodeo circuit, so they must have been in his room ever since. No way that his mother wouldn't know that one of the shirts wasn't his; she must have been the one who ironed the ones he owned. So she had to know that one belonged to another man, and why would it be kept unless it had some special significance to Jack? So she must have known, or at least guessed, that Jack was gay. Then again he never apparently brought any girls home; when he married Lureen it was far away and there's no indication that his parents and his wife ever met.

When they got the news that he was dead, in an accident if Lureen told them the same as she told Ennis,would they accept that he had died in such a fashion? Or did mother, and even father, possibly suspect that he had been the victim of homophobes? If so, what could they do? They were too far away to ask questions, and probably wouldn't have got far if they had done. So did his mother just accept it as another in a string of unhappy experiences? And did the old man in his bitter fashion think that it served Jack right for being queer? He certainly appears to loathe and resent Ennis when he appears.

In the end they know very little about Jack's death. We don't either and can only speculate.

expanding on what you said about how jacks mother would have known that ennis' shirt was not jacks she must have also realised there was some nostalga going along with it... i mean why else would jack leave them blood stained would he not try to wash them or throw them out im pretty sure she would have known... but as for his father well i dont think his father would check the closet so he may never have really seen the shirts but i thought it was pretty clear by the way he talked to Ennis that he knew... JMO

Offline welshwitch

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #248 on: May 03, 2008, 10:55 AM »
es, I think you're right. I'd have expected any mother, specially one in a household where money wasn't plentiful, to want to try to wash a perfectly serviceable shirt so that it could be worn again, might even have suggested to Jack that she did - surely his response would have given her a clue that the shirts were more than just two shirts?

Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #249 on: May 03, 2008, 10:58 AM »
es, I think you're right. I'd have expected any mother, specially one in a household where money wasn't plentiful, to want to try to wash a perfectly serviceable shirt so that it could be worn again, might even have suggested to Jack that she did - surely his response would have given her a clue that the shirts were more than just two shirts?

yes, i mean i think she would have known instantly if she'd asked him i can imagine his response, i dont think she would question him though, IMO she would jsut let him get on with it.

Offline tpe

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #250 on: May 03, 2008, 12:47 PM »
Well, something gets me thinking here. If Jack was murdered it’s like saying: “Ok, then, Ennis was RIGHT THE WHOLE TIME!!! Jack dreams were stupid, crazy, dangerous and useless. Living like you want, loving like you need means that you’re gonna die, no matter what. You can NOT be happy and be free if you’re gay, so you know, being gay is wrong.”
If Jack really was murdered, how can we think and hope that Ennis, after find the shirts, had been different towards their relationship when he just took the confirmation of his theory? Oooouuuchhhh, my shit English!!! ::) ::) Sorry. What I’m trying to say is that we all think that Ennis had learned the lesson and he was going to live his life differently. But how we can hope that Ennis be in peace with himself if he just knows now that he was right and being with another man leads you to death?
Maybe if Jack died in an accident we can learn that we have to fight to get what we need, without fears, without doubts, because not always there are tire irons out there waiting for us. We can see Ennis regret for not believe in it before. The film shows us that we can not live afraid. Life is so short. Love is right no matter what your sex is. But if Jack was really murdered, well, that only shows that you better don’t be yourself and don’t try to live your dream like Jack tried, because you are gonna end like Jack…

I know, this makes no sense, and I know you all are gonna kick my ass for this lame post. But I’ve spent the last two years crying my eyes out, day after day, because I always thought that Jack was murdered, and I can not stand this pain and sadness anymore. So since two months ago I’ve decided that Jack died in an accident, and I’m trying to believe in this with all my strength, because with it maybe I’ll find so peace at last. I don’t wanna think Jack was murdered, I don’t!!! So I keep talking about my new theory about his accident, trying to prove something, because I don’t want to believe in your posts, I just can’t right now. It hurts so much.  :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(

Well, it was discussed that the way Ennis envisioned Jack's death may have been a confirmation of his worst fears, and that this was what he feared in the first place.  For some of us who think that Ennis refused to live with Jack because he feared for the safety of both of them, Jack's death could affirmed those fears and may have led Ennis to his subsequent withdrawal from society and his family...

 

babytammy7

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #251 on: May 03, 2008, 01:38 PM »
Jack must have brought the shirts home after the first summer on Brokeback and I don't see him taking them on the rodeo circuit, so they must have been in his room ever since. No way that his mother wouldn't know that one of the shirts wasn't his; she must have been the one who ironed the ones he owned. So she had to know that one belonged to another man, and why would it be kept unless it had some special significance to Jack? So she must have known, or at least guessed, that Jack was gay. Then again he never apparently brought any girls home; when he married Lureen it was far away and there's no indication that his parents and his wife ever met.

When they got the news that he was dead, in an accident if Lureen told them the same as she told Ennis,would they accept that he had died in such a fashion? Or did mother, and even father, possibly suspect that he had been the victim of homophobes? If so, what could they do? They were too far away to ask questions, and probably wouldn't have got far if they had done. So did his mother just accept it as another in a string of unhappy experiences? And did the old man in his bitter fashion think that it served Jack right for being queer? He certainly appears to loathe and resent Ennis when he appears.

In the end they know very little about Jack's death. We don't either and can only speculate.

But I don't bring men to home, and I keep a lot of personal things from my friends (girls) and I'm straight......So keep something from a friend you are not gonna see again (in first place when they left BBM Jack thought that) is something normal and beautiful, I think.

We didn't see what Lureen said to them or how they reacted so we'll never know...I know that kind of accident are possible. Jack was not good with those things (Ennis repaired his truck), but if he was an expert with that tires thing I think that that is possible too, because when we have done a thing a million times you get too confident and you get distracted. I mean we see every day accidents at work with people that have been doing the same thing for years!!

Maybe he was murdered, but an accident is not a silly idea.

babytammy7

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #252 on: May 03, 2008, 01:42 PM »
Well, it was discussed that the way Ennis envisioned Jack's death may have been a confirmation of his worst fears, and that this was what he feared in the first place.  For some of us who think that Ennis refused to live with Jack because he feared for the safety of both of them, Jack's death could affirmed those fears and may have led Ennis to his subsequent withdrawal from society and his family...

 

Agree. So if Jack was live but hurting, if that tire iron didn't kill him but he was in a hospital, had Ennis changed and lived with Jack? Or would he have kept saying no now he got the confirmation of his theory?

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #253 on: May 03, 2008, 06:12 PM »
But I don't bring men to home, and I keep a lot of personal things from my friends (girls) and I'm straight......So keep something from a friend you are not gonna see again (in first place when they left BBM Jack thought that) is something normal and beautiful, I think.

We didn't see what Lureen said to them or how they reacted so we'll never know...I know that kind of accident are possible. Jack was not good with those things (Ennis repaired his truck), but if he was an expert with that tires thing I think that that is possible too, because when we have done a thing a million times you get too confident and you get distracted. I mean we see every day accidents at work with people that have been doing the same thing for years!!

Maybe he was murdered, but an accident is not a silly idea.

 OK, I've changed tires before. Unless jack had the tire off the truck, or was pumping up a spare, I can't  see this happening. If he was "pumping up a flat ON the truck like she said, it's very unlikekly that the rim would just jump off imo. Pumping up a flat , while it's still on the truck without a Jack ,with unsecure lug nuts is unheard of. Either way, Jack had to be bending down pretty low for the rim to hit him in the jaw or nose and break them. Jack was a very tall guy. To be at face level with the rim of the tire he'd have to be almost on his knees.  The rim would have hit him in the legs, not the face. Most people stand as they're pumping.The  rubber tire may explode, if givin too much air pressure, but the rim would remain secured on the truck with lug nuts connecting the rim firmly to an axle. Her story defies the laws of science imo. Sorry, I do think freak accidents happen, but I still don't buy this. Her whole demeanor was just wrong.

Jackster, where are you when I need ya? You know about these things. Is it possible for a rim to come  off a tire while it firmly on the vehicle with lug nuts if and when a  tire exploded? I've actually been driving and had tires blow out , but the rim remained on . I've driven on rims alone before, I don't feel they'd come off like Lureen explained. The resentment in her voice to Ennis and  at the  way Jack kept things from her, way to much detail of injuries, "out on a back road" , "He landed on his back" "he drowned in his own blood" ...too much detail ,and sounding so  darned rehearsed spells suspicion to me. . Of course it's all speculation how he died, but this version just did'nt ring true to me. Maybe I'm wrong, but Jack was her no. 1 salesman, she'd have a lot to loose and explain  to her son, friends and family , clients, etc, if Jack up and left her for another man. Again, she may have been a hard business woman, and loved her husband at one time, but she had grown bitter towards Jack and his drinking.  MO.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #254 on: May 03, 2008, 06:20 PM »
intresting post, AF thanks

babytammy7

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #255 on: May 04, 2008, 09:42 AM »
AF, about the details, a lot of them, that Lureen gave Ennis, I think is normal. When my aunt die we explained her illness with sooooooooo much detail to everybody, even using medical names like the ones the doctor used with us.

In fact, every person I know when someone of their family or friends died, they told me EVERYTHING about it, with a lot of details. I read here that someone said that he lived the same situation......that when someone died he told everything about it to everybody.

I think when death comes like that, so suddenly, we have a need to explain it all, like trying to make it more credible, like trying to make it to make sense, like trying to accept it repeating it over and over again. I think Ennis was so stunned about it, finding about Jack months later, so maybe Lureen wanted to explained all to help Ennis to understand and find some sense. Because sometimes we find no sense in some deaths and we need details and things to understand.

I don't know well....And sorry for my English.

Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #256 on: May 04, 2008, 09:55 AM »
AF, about the details, a lot of them, that Lureen gave Ennis, I think is normal. When my aunt die we explained her illness with sooooooooo much detail to everybody, even using medical names like the ones the doctor used with us.

In fact, every person I know when someone of their family or friends died, they told me EVERYTHING about it, with a lot of details. I read here that someone said that he lived the same situation......that when someone died he told everything about it to everybody.

I think when death comes like that, so suddenly, we have a need to explain it all, like trying to make it more credible, like trying to make it to make sense, like trying to accept it repeating it over and over again. I think Ennis was so stunned about it, finding about Jack months later, so maybe Lureen wanted to explained all to help Ennis to understand and find some sense. Because sometimes we find no sense in some deaths and we need details and things to understand.

I don't know well....And sorry for my English.

your english was fine :), i think what you are meaning by this is that jacks death could have been just an accident, i do agree it could have been but one thing that sticks in my mind to say other wise is that... well in a delteted scene some mechanics see jack and randall and those mechanics are the ones who in Ennis' fear kill him... and in the SS ennis was sure jack had been killed and not in an accident... JMO. but i do accpt it could have been an acident, but in my mind i think it was murder  :\'(

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #257 on: May 04, 2008, 04:09 PM »
AF, about the details, a lot of them, that Lureen gave Ennis, I think is normal. When my aunt die we explained her illness with sooooooooo much detail to everybody, even using medical names like the ones the doctor used with us.

In fact, every person I know when someone of their family or friends died, they told me EVERYTHING about it, with a lot of details. I read here that someone said that he lived the same situation......that when someone died he told everything about it to everybody.

I think when death comes like that, so suddenly, we have a need to explain it all, like trying to make it more credible, like trying to make it to make sense, like trying to accept it repeating it over and over again. I think Ennis was so stunned about it, finding about Jack months later, so maybe Lureen wanted to explained all to help Ennis to understand and find some sense. Because sometimes we find no sense in some deaths and we need details and things to understand.

I don't know well....And sorry for my English.

Your English is just fine, I understand you clearly. My thing is the way it was presented to Ennis. When Ennis says " that's why I'm calling ,to see what happened" Lureen says " oh yeah", then goes into this this point by point description of how Jack died which was imo a little too neat, too tidy, too rehersed. Of course this may be a results of telling people over and over, the same story, but again, it just did'nt ring true for me. Bu that's my own personal take. No one really can be sure, and I respect your possibility of it being an accident, but I tend to think it was murder. Just an opiion. Thanx.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline tpe

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #258 on: May 04, 2008, 11:23 PM »
Agree. So if Jack was live but hurting, if that tire iron didn't kill him but he was in a hospital, had Ennis changed and lived with Jack? Or would he have kept saying no now he got the confirmation of his theory?
This is an interesting proposition, no?  I would like to think that perhaps Ennis would have changed, the way the shirts opened his eyes in the very end. Death or near-death experiences do have the power to destroy doubt and/or strengthen resolve in ways we can't possibly anticipate.   

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #259 on: May 05, 2008, 05:39 AM »
Agree. So if Jack was live but hurting, if that tire iron didn't kill him but he was in a hospital, had Ennis changed and lived with Jack? Or would he have kept saying no now he got the confirmation of his theory?
This is an interesting proposition, no?  I would like to think that perhaps Ennis would have changed, the way the shirts opened his eyes in the very end. Death or near-death experiences do have the power to destroy doubt and/or strengthen resolve in ways we can't possibly anticipate.   

It's difficult to give a categorical answer in someone with so deep thoughts of fear and denial as Ennis is...But it's true that an experience that hits you hard inside makes you almost always react in the contrary side you've always maintain.The possibility of losing your loved being in a definitive way often makes people ask themselves about the probability of loosing this person little by little if they keep on behaving the same way.You can loose them,but at least you've got them for a while; closing the doors completely,you don't have anything but emptiness.Why couldn't Ennis react so after a possible Jack's accident?.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

manhattangirl

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #260 on: May 05, 2008, 06:15 AM »
Tammy brings out a very good point.  Would it just confirm Ennis worst fears, and would Jack be a sign of that confirmation and he'll stay away from him?  It's sad to think that he would be so twisted inside about his fears as to stay away from Jack.   Unless he got angry enough not to stand it a more and want to act and protect Jack, keeping him close to him, but also the fear of who he is, and what they are together, is not as great as losing the one person he loved most in the world.  It could go either way. 

just a thought.

Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #261 on: May 05, 2008, 07:57 AM »
This is an interesting proposition, no?  I would like to think that perhaps Ennis would have changed, the way the shirts opened his eyes in the very end. Death or near-death experiences do have the power to destroy doubt and/or strengthen resolve in ways we can't possibly anticipate.   
the wya i see it is that, well Ennis was fearful of people finding out and killing him or jack, maybe if jack had been hospitalised rather then killed by homophobes then Ennis would change and lived with jack, maybe he would figure if people already knew about jack it would be safer that jack was with him where Ennis could protect him the best he could, if people already knew there could be no fear of people finding out, however a factor which may change that would be how much Ennis feared for his own safety, would he be willing to risk his life to live with and protect jack, IMO he would we seen him after Jacks death he was destroyed, i think in someways he would have rather been killed aswell so he could be together with jack... just my ramblings i hope they make some sense...

babytammy7

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #262 on: May 06, 2008, 08:40 AM »
Tammy brings out a very good point.  Would it just confirm Ennis worst fears, and would Jack be a sign of that confirmation and he'll stay away from him?  It's sad to think that he would be so twisted inside about his fears as to stay away from Jack.   Unless he got angry enough not to stand it a more and want to act and protect Jack, keeping him close to him, but also the fear of who he is, and what they are together, is not as great as losing the one person he loved most in the world.  It could go either way. 

just a thought.

I agree MG. Ennis could react in two ways:

1. He can think now that life is so short and precious to live it with fears, that he has to stay with Jack before loosing him forever. He can realize now that he really needs and loves Jack and he should be with him, because you don't know when or how death can catch you, and you can regret of it if you have not spent your life with the one you love because of your fears.

2. Ennis can think now that he was right all the time. Maybe Jack was lucky this time, but maybe he will be not the next time......And now that Ennis really knows how much he loves Jack and how much Jack's death could hurt, he could think that living together is not worth of Jack's death. So maybe he could think that he better stay away from Jack, though it hurt Jack and himself, and being alone, then see Jack hurting again, or worse, dead. After suffering the unbearable pain of almost loosing Jack, Ennis could see that he can NOT risk Jack's life again.

Like MG said I think It could go either way.

athena0204

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #263 on: May 08, 2008, 11:33 PM »
I really believe that Jack was murdered by homophobes. I believe in the end, Ennis realized that they would have been safer together, and that it would have been better to live together even if they were killed, because that way they would have spent more time with each other, than those stolen moments they had once or twice a year in the middle of nowhere. Because if you add it all up, in the course of twenty years, how much time did Ennis and Jack spend together? It was probably about six or seven months total time. Ennis in the end feels cheated by his own self.

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #264 on: May 09, 2008, 12:18 PM »
I really believe that Jack was murdered by homophobes. I believe in the end, Ennis realized that they would have been safer together, and that it would have been better to live together even if they were killed, because that way they would have spent more time with each other, than those stolen moments they had once or twice a year in the middle of nowhere. Because if you add it all up, in the course of twenty years, how much time did Ennis and Jack spend together? It was probably about six or seven months total time. Ennis in the end feels cheated by his own self.
I do agree with you,Athena; as it happens almost always,a great slap on your face is what makes you realise what you had and you have lost.So,Ennis could realise that it' d have been better to live together even if homophobia could kill them,than ending killed by this homophobia having denied all the time this possibility.It was as killing themselves little by little during almost 20 years,by ending killed anyway without having lived their great dream.What an enormous and painful contradiction¡. :\'(
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline jessicat80

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #265 on: May 09, 2008, 05:34 PM »
Tammy brings out a very good point.  Would it just confirm Ennis worst fears, and would Jack be a sign of that confirmation and he'll stay away from him?  It's sad to think that he would be so twisted inside about his fears as to stay away from Jack.   Unless he got angry enough not to stand it a more and want to act and protect Jack, keeping him close to him, but also the fear of who he is, and what they are together, is not as great as losing the one person he loved most in the world.  It could go either way. 

just a thought.

I understand what everyone is getting at in the sense that Ennis' worse fears were realized, but i really don't feel that way because Ennis' fear was that 2 guys living together and being openly gay was Ennis' fear. What was realized in the end was that Jack was hurt anyway, even without living the life he wanted. Yes it can be twisted that he was killed for being gay, but if he was really killed, it was sneaking around, not being open about it, which goes completely against Ennis' theory of it being better/safer to hide.
"I’d rather live in his world…..than live without him….in mine."                                       (Midnight Train to Georgia)

babytammy7

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #266 on: May 10, 2008, 05:00 PM »
I understand what everyone is getting at in the sense that Ennis' worse fears were realized, but i really don't feel that way because Ennis' fear was that 2 guys living together and being openly gay was Ennis' fear. What was realized in the end was that Jack was hurt anyway, even without living the life he wanted. Yes it can be twisted that he was killed for being gay, but if he was really killed, it was sneaking around, not being open about it, which goes completely against Ennis' theory of it being better/safer to hide.

I didn't think about before. But you're so right, Jess. Ennis said that two men living together could kill them, but Jack was not living with anyone and still he got murdered....But I think that someone could say that Jack was not careful the way Ennis could be or think it was better...I don't know, sweetie.

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #267 on: May 11, 2008, 03:56 AM »
I understand what everyone is getting at in the sense that Ennis' worse fears were realized, but i really don't feel that way because Ennis' fear was that 2 guys living together and being openly gay was Ennis' fear. What was realized in the end was that Jack was hurt anyway, even without living the life he wanted. Yes it can be twisted that he was killed for being gay, but if he was really killed, it was sneaking around, not being open about it, which goes completely against Ennis' theory of it being better/safer to hide.

 At some point Ennis had to ask himself..If the purposes of living apart was to keep he and Jack safe, then why was Jack dead?  Ennis has an idea what happened, but we don't really know what happened. It's Ennis's tragedy that in his mind, Jack died just the way he'd feared.  It's what made the most logical sense to him.

Was Jack unknowingly lured to his death or are we to believe Lurren's version? What was Jack doing out on some deserted road with four homophobes who happen to have trusty tireirons with them.? We have no  mention of police reports or coroner's say. It's any one's guess what  actually happened. I suppose it really does'nt matter how Jack died, we all felt  Ennis's loss. He learned that had he been with Jack, maybe, just maybe Jack would be still alive.

I think if he could turn back the hands of time, knowing what he now knows, perhaps Jack' dream was'nt so scary after all. He was wrong to think they were safer apart. Jack was left vulnerable to these men because he was not together with Jack to change the circumstances , setting and timing of Jack's murder. He was so content with the status quo that he never saw it coming.  He's left with *what if's and *if onlys* as well as the who, what, where, why, and when... just like us.  It's so tragic. Jack had been stolen away from him by his own fear. This was his friend and lover for many years. Now there was nothing but emptiness. He could'nt fix this but this had to be the hardest thing to stand. I felt his pain. Thanx
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

babytammy7

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #268 on: May 11, 2008, 04:11 PM »
At some point Ennis had to ask himself..If the purposes of living apart was to keep he and Jack safe, then why was Jack dead?  Ennis has an idea what happened, but we don't really know what happened. It's Ennis's tragedy that in his mind, Jack died just the way he'd feared.  It's what made the most logical sense to him.

Was Jack unknowingly lured to his death or are we to believe Lurren's version? What was Jack doing out on some deserted road with four homophobes who happen to have trusty tireirons with them.? We have no  mention of police reports or coroner's say. It's any one's guess what  actually happened. I suppose it really does'nt matter how Jack died, we all felt  Ennis's loss. He learned that had he been with Jack, maybe, just maybe Jack would be still alive.

I think if he could turn back the hands of time, knowing what he now knows, perhaps Jack' dream was'nt so scary after all. He was wrong to think they were safer apart. Jack was left vulnerable to these men because he was not together with Jack to change the circumstances , setting and timing of Jack's murder. He was so content with the status quo that he never saw it coming.  He's left with *what if's and *if onlys* as well as the who, what, where, why, and when... just like us.  It's so tragic. Jack had been stolen away from him by his own fear. This was his friend and lover for many years. Now there was nothing but emptiness. He could'nt fix this but this had to be the hardest thing to stand. I felt his pain. Thanx

Agree, agree, agree. I felt his pain too. Why do you always say all those things I'm thinking? Thanks for this, because I can NOT do it because of my English.  :^^)

Offline tpe

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Re: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler
« Reply #269 on: May 12, 2008, 07:39 AM »
the wya i see it is that, well Ennis was fearful of people finding out and killing him or jack, maybe if jack had been hospitalised rather then killed by homophobes then Ennis would change and lived with jack, maybe he would figure if people already knew about jack it would be safer that jack was with him where Ennis could protect him the best he could, if people already knew there could be no fear of people finding out, however a factor which may change that would be how much Ennis feared for his own safety, would he be willing to risk his life to live with and protect jack, IMO he would we seen him after Jacks death he was destroyed, i think in someways he would have rather been killed aswell so he could be together with jack... just my ramblings i hope they make some sense...

BUt then again, perhaps Ennis would have adopted an "I told you so" attitide, although I personally suspect that this is unlikely, had Jack survived the attack.  Still, perhaps such an attack may convince Ennis that drawing attention to themselves by living together would only attract some form of retribution, and I feel that had Jack lived, he may use the attack as justification not to meet that often...