Author Topic: Jack's love for Ennis (Read 159199 times)

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #300 on:** Nov 21, 2006, 08:16 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Nov 21, 2006, 08:25 AM

[
I somehow like the fact that here is a hint of the Fall in Jack's love for Ennis close to the end of his life. It makes that love more precious, in my eyes. We often like to think that there is a love that lasts forever, but even the most ardent love cannot remain completely unaffected by fears. frustrations, and a loss of hope. In the end, Jack's love for Ennis was not perfect. Jack was very far from perfect. Perhaps that is why Ennis loved him so. Perhaps that is why we love him so. It is because Jack is so human. His imperfect love teaches us the meaning of what it means to live, and informs each of us that love can go on and can at last be realized by the other -- even beyond death itself.

Beautiful as usual

greenfrog · « **Reply #301 on:** Nov 21, 2006, 09:38 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Nov 21, 2006, 06:40 PM

kathy, no human love, is perfect, no? I think that is what makes it all so precious. That Jack loved Ennis imperfectly makes me love him all the more. And the same can be certainly said of Ennis's love for Jack.

Beautiful post tpe :\'( :\'( :\'(

City Slickin' Cowboy · « **Reply #302 on:** Nov 21, 2006, 10:41 PM »

Wonderful words tpe and kathy. :\'(

tpe · « **Reply #303 on:** Nov 22, 2006, 08:03 AM »

The Japanese as a people have a record of immortalizing the most valiant failures in their History. There is a great deal of substance to be said about this. It acknowledges that to struggle against fate and lose is close to the heart of the human condition.

In the case of Jack's love for Ennis, we may indeed say that that love was a failure. In spite of his intense love for Ennis, Jack was a failure in this regard. And we love him for that, because so many of us have experienced failed loves in one form or another. It is so human.

FlwrChild · « **Reply #304 on:** Nov 22, 2006, 01:43 PM »

Though in the end, I don't believe that Jack failed. I believe that life failed him. And when you consider how strongly the deck was stacked against him, his capacity for love and loyalty was a triumph over all the adversity that tried to break his spirit.
(sorry, fawning Jack moment

)

tpe · « **Reply #305 on:** Nov 22, 2006, 01:52 PM »

The astonishing thing is not that it failed. What was astonishing is that it lasted for so long.

City Slickin' Cowboy · « **Reply #306 on:** Nov 22, 2006, 05:50 PM »

Quote from: FlwrChild on Nov 22, 2006, 01:43 PM

Though in the end, I don't believe that Jack failed. I believe that life failed him. And when you consider how strongly the deck was stacked against him, his capacity for love and loyalty was a triumph over all the adversity that tried to break his spirit.
(sorry, fawning Jack moment )

Well I'm an Ennis fan

and I couldn't agree more. Jack wasn't the most patient person on some levels. When it came to Ennis he really became patient for the sake of love. My hat is off to him.

greenfrog · « **Reply #307 on:** Nov 22, 2006, 06:44 PM »

Quote from: FlwrChild on Nov 22, 2006, 01:43 PM

Though in the end, I don't believe that Jack failed. I believe that life failed him. And when you consider how strongly the deck was stacked against him, his capacity for love and loyalty was a triumph over all the adversity that tried to break his spirit.
(sorry, fawning Jack moment )

I'm tearing up after reading this FlwrChild :\'( :\'( :\'(

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #308 on:** Nov 22, 2006, 08:23 PM »

This thread kills me. :\'( Beautifully said Flwrchild.

JT · « **Reply #309 on:** Nov 24, 2006, 04:18 PM »

Quote from: FlwrChild on Nov 22, 2006, 01:43 PM

Though in the end, I don't believe that Jack failed. I believe that life failed him. And when you consider how strongly the deck was stacked against him, his capacity for love and loyalty was a triumph over all the adversity that tried to break his spirit.
(sorry, fawning Jack moment )

Beautiful post! I'm tearing up and I'm a hard man. This is exactly what I see in Jack. His life and love may not be perfect, but it doesn't fail either.

City Slickin' Cowboy · « **Reply #310 on:** Nov 24, 2006, 06:13 PM »

You start the tears flowing FlwrChild :\'(

lamusica · « **Reply #311 on:** Nov 24, 2006, 06:20 PM »

Kudos, Flowerchild. Very well stated and oh, so true.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #312 on:** Nov 24, 2006, 07:03 PM »

I also agree that Jack's love was not a failure. It was just the opposite. His love for Ennis spanned 20 years. His only failure was succeeding in convincing Ennis to share the commitment and join him in this deep love that he had for him. There is a difference. And try he did. To say that his love was a failure is to undercut the trials and tribulations he suffered to realize his dream of a life with the one he loved so dearly. FlowerChild is right, life indeed failed him. This is MHO.

City Slickin' Cowboy · « **Reply #313 on:** Nov 24, 2006, 09:53 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Nov 24, 2006, 07:03 PM

I also agree that Jack's love was not a failure. It was just the opposite. His love for Ennis spanned 20 years. His only failure was succeeding in convincing Ennis to share the commitment and join him in this deep love that he had for him. There is a difference. And try he did. To say that his love was a failure is to undercut the trials and tribulations he suffered to realize his dream of a life with the one he loved so dearly. FlowerChild is right, life indeed failed him. This is MHO.

Very well said!

tpe · « **Reply #314 on:** Nov 27, 2006, 09:52 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Nov 24, 2006, 07:03 PM

I also agree that Jack's love was not a failure. It was just the opposite. His love for Ennis spanned 20 years. His only failure was succeeding in convincing Ennis to share the commitment and join him in this deep love that he had for him. There is a difference. And try he did. To say that his love was a failure is to undercut the trials and tribulations he suffered to realize his dream of a life with the one he loved so dearly. FlowerChild is right, life indeed failed him. This is MHO.

Any kind of love can't be a total loss, no? You are probably right. Jack would probably have never admitted that he had failed in his love.

Audrey twist · « **Reply #315 on:** Nov 27, 2006, 04:18 PM »

Jack's love for ennis is showing in the flashback of the murder.Jack don't try to hide is homosexuality,he thinks about Ennis every moment of his life.The other cowboys kil jack for his nature that can't exist in their "system" :\'( :\'( :\'(

:gnight:l

Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree · « **Reply #316 on:** Nov 28, 2006, 06:33 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Nov 27, 2006, 09:52 AM

Jack would probably have never admitted that he had failed in his love.

There are no real failures in this.

But - if anyone did fail I think it was Ennis who failed Jack.

Time after time Jack tried to get a sweet life, and time after time Ennis rejected it out of fear from his childhood and the social enviromnent to which he belonged.

Ennis only got the message when I could not be fixed any more, only stood.

tizi17 · « **Reply #317 on:** Nov 28, 2006, 08:11 AM »

Ennis only got the message when it could not be fixed any more, only stood.

Quote

so sad. :\'(
ans so true, to so many of us...

tpe · « **Reply #318 on:** Nov 28, 2006, 08:17 AM »

Quote from: Jack F. Twist (Saul) on Nov 28, 2006, 06:33 AM

Quote from: tpe on Nov 27, 2006, 09:52 AM
Jack would probably have never admitted that he had failed in his love.

There are no real failures in this.

But - if anyone did fail I think it was Ennis who failed Jack.

Time after time Jack tried to get a sweet life, and time after time Ennis rejected it out of fear from his childhood and the social enviromnent to which he belonged.

Ennis only got the message when I could not be fixed any more, only stood.

Yes, I think the tragedy of BBM is that Ennis realized it too late. Would he have changed had Jack lived? I don't know. But I suspect that if he came around and Jack still lived, Jack would probably be unable to say no. Speculation, but everything in the past seems to lend support to this supposition.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #319 on:** Nov 28, 2006, 08:19 AM »

Ennis was convinced that his fears were real. When he told Jack about the story of Earl and Ray, he called himself trying to protect him. To prevent it from happening to them. But somewhere along the line some one failed Ennis first. His dad maybe? Those images of Earl dead, were seared into his head at 9? years old and he was told by his dad (or shown) that this is what happens to guys who dare live together or are gay. .a cruel deed to force this on a small child. It was a failure on his dad's part not to teach him tolerance , acceptance, and love , not shame and guilt.To fix it instead of standing it. He just was'nt as strong as Jack or mentally prepared for such a deep, loving relationship due to this. I think Jack "got it" and loved him even more for it.
He obviously felt he'd failed Jack in the end. IMHO

tpe · « **Reply #320 on:** Nov 28, 2006, 08:29 AM »

I think one of the great things about Jack's love for Ennis was that it was able to see behind the fear and internal conflict and appreciate Ennis for what he truly is -- a faithful and truly loving soul that asked little of life and yet had more to give than meets the eye. Whatever Ennis's issues, he was capable of love, and this Jack recognized and loved in return.

FlwrChild · « **Reply #321 on:** Nov 28, 2006, 08:42 AM »

tpe, I think that sums up both of them quite beautifully.

tpe · « **Reply #322 on:** Nov 28, 2006, 09:00 AM »

Quote from: FlwrChild on Nov 28, 2006, 08:42 AM

tpe, I think that sums up both of them quite beautifully.

Thanks FlwrChild. The lover is nothing without the beloved, no? To speak about Jack's love for Ennis can only lead us back to Ennis. Ennis's love, though imperfect, was understood by Jack to be the one thing that completes him as a human being. That was Ennis's gift. Sure, Ennis had a lot of issues. But even those issues were not strong enough for him to reject Jack's love. The power of Jack's love is manifest, and yet its power draws so much on Ennis's conflicted love.

FlwrChild · « **Reply #323 on:** Nov 28, 2006, 06:10 PM »

I think you understand them both so well. And you're right. Anytime you talk about one half of a whole, you must talk about the other half or the picture is incomplete. This is what they were to each other, whatever their strengths or weaknesses.

ksxks · « **Reply #324 on:** Nov 29, 2006, 12:38 AM »

So very true, both of you. And yes, Thomas, you said it so well, how their love intertwined. The love each of them had was fed by the other's love -- and it couldn't be any other way.

kathy

greenfrog · « **Reply #325 on:** Nov 29, 2006, 02:23 AM »

Quote from: FlwrChild on Nov 28, 2006, 06:10 PM

I think you understand them both so well. And you're right. Anytime you talk about one half of a whole, you must talk about the other half or the picture is incomplete. This is what they were to each other, whatever their strengths or weaknesses.

Jeez, where are the tissues when you need them?

:\'(

tpe · « **Reply #326 on:** Nov 29, 2006, 09:45 AM »

Quote from: ksxks on Nov 29, 2006, 12:38 AM

So very true, both of you. And yes, Thomas, you said it so well, how their love intertwined. The love each of them had was fed by the other's love -- and it couldn't be any other way.

kathy

You said it best: the love each of them had was fed by the other's love. I love the analogy of "feeding". And as FlwrChild said: this is what they were to each other -- two loves with one, one heart in two.

JT · « **Reply #327 on:** Nov 29, 2006, 12:25 PM »

I think you all said it so well. I can only sit here and absorb what you guys are saying and try to enhance what I already know or felt about Jack's love for Ennis and Ennis' love for Jack. I'm listening to many scholars here with teary eyes.

tpe · « **Reply #328 on:** Nov 30, 2006, 12:00 PM »

JT, it's a wonderful subect: love. We are always students and teachers in this regard. Jack's love for Ennis moves us all the more because we have all loved or have been loved.

greenfrog · « **Reply #329 on:** Dec 01, 2006, 12:50 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Nov 30, 2006, 12:00 PM

JT, it's a wonderful subect: love. We are always students and teachers in this regard. Jack's love for Ennis moves us all the more because we have all loved or have been loved.

Beautiful post tpe

Author Topic: Jack's love for Ennis (Read 159199 times)

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