Topic: Jack's love for Ennis

[tpe]

I think the point you are making here, No Reins, is valid and important.  We don't hear Ennis declare any love for Jack, but we don't really see much of any of their time together.  I think we have to take the characters as the author created them.  She didn't create a cold Ennis, just a lonely, private, rather closed-mouth man.  When he was with Jack, he was more open and might have actually expressed his love verbally.  We just don't know.  The point I'm trying to make is that I don't think we should keep the SS men and the film men separate.  Ennis is Ennis and Jack is Jack, no matter where they appear and we have to take them as Annie painted them.  All we can do, then, is speculate about what one might have said to another or done to, with and for the other.  That's where the fun comes in.  Since we don't really KNOW for sure, whatever we want to think is right for us.

Although I do think that there are subtle but significant differences between the characters in the ss and the film, I do tend to agree with you that we should not overstress the differences.  In the case of Jack's love, I got the feeling that the film was much more demonstartive and emphatic, although this may be just because of the impact of cinema as contrasted with the more internalized effect of the ss.

AS for the lacunae, I agree that we can use our imagination to fill in what must have been and what could have been.

[ksxks]

Though this be blasphemy, I'm going to say it anyway.  Looking at this pic of Jack with Randall, I can see how Jack could find some fulfillment and comfort with him.  Jack "needs" this, and Ennis doesn't seem to (wranging it out thinking about Jack good enough for him, under the circumstances -- those being his fears that keep him from living with Jack).  Randall is a nice guy, and a good looking big bear of a man, and I can see how Jack could be drawn to him.  I actually feel sorry for Randall, because Jack's heart belongs to Ennis.  I wonder what Jack has told Randall about Ennis?

kathy

[greenfrog]

I doubt Jack said much (if anything) about Ennis to Randall.

[tpe]

Though this be blasphemy, I'm going to say it anyway.  Looking at this pic of Jack with Randall, I can see how Jack could find some fulfillment and comfort with him.  Jack "needs" this, and Ennis doesn't seem to (wranging it out thinking about Jack good enough for him, under the circumstances -- those being his fears that keep him from living with Jack).  Randall is a nice guy, and a good looking big bear of a man, and I can see how Jack could be drawn to him.  I actually feel sorry for Randall, because Jack's heart belongs to Ennis.  I wonder what Jack has told Randall about Ennis?

kathy

Honestly, my current thoughts about Randall is that he did probably love Jack.  If he is indeed willing to share a life with Jack, then that is a tantalizing demonstration of commitment and risk-taking.  I have been wondering if he and Ennis shared any similarities that attracted Jack, but Randall remains a shadowy figure, and it is hard do this particular topic justice.

I tend to believe at the moment that Randall and Jack did share something special.  Would he replace Ennis is Jack's affections?  I honestly don't know.  But I do suspect that up until his death, Jack loved Ennis above all things, and his giving up his dream is at least partly an expression of spiritual and emotional self-immolation.  He loved Ennis enough to do this, and Randall would never be enough to bring back to life what had died in Jack's heart.

[ksxks]

Honestly, my current thoughts about Randall is that he did probably love Jack.  If he is indeed willing to share a life with Jack, then that is a tantalizing demonstration of commitment and risk-taking.  I have been wondering if he and Ennis shared any similarities that attracted Jack, but Randall remains a shadowy figure, and it is hard do this particular topic justice.

I tend to believe at the moment that Randall and Jack did share something special.  Would he replace Ennis is Jack's affections?  I honestly don't know.  But I do suspect that up until his death, Jack loved Ennis above all things, and his giving up his dream is at least partly an expression of spiritual and emotional self-immolation.  He loved Ennis enough to do this, and Randall would never be enough to bring back to life what had died in Jack's heart.

Actually, when I wrote that post, I was not thinking at all of Jack's father's comment to Ennis about Jack bringing up that rancher fellow instead of Ennis.  There is so much speculation on that thread that I haven't really come to a hard and fast conclusion about it.  I'm thinking more like Jack just mentioning this other guy to his dad, but not that it was ever a serious possibility with Randall, or even that Jack said anything about it to Randall.  Like he never said anything about it to Ennis.

So my point is, I was thinking of Jack with Randall only as a temporary, current, local, mutually beneficial relationship, that Jack's feelings were so strongly still for Ennis.  I mean, he was apparently with Randall before the ultimate limit of his frustrations with Ennis came to be.

kathy

[tpe]

But would have Jack considered Randall as temporary?  I wonder.  I believe that Jack never gave up his love for Ennis.  But I believe that he had given up hope of living with him.  Something inside me wants to believe that he will continue to see Ennis.  And who knows what the future would bring to their love?  But at the time of his death, I cannot discount the possibility that Jack intended not to see Ennis again, and try to build something permanent with Randall.

[carbyville]

But would have Jack considered Randall as temporary?  I wonder.  I believe that Jack never gave up his love for Ennis.  But I believe that he had given up hope of living with him.  Something inside me wants to believe that he will continue to see Ennis.  And who knows what the future would bring to their love?  But at the time of his death, I cannot discount the possibility that Jack intended not to see Ennis again, and try to build something permanent with Randall.

You also have to factor in the revelation that Ennis supposedly had during that fight on their last meeting. According to Diana Ossana, after that last meeting Ennis realized that Jack was the love of his life.

Diana Ossana: Cassie somewhat exemplifies Ennis’s continual denial of his emotional makeup, and his attempts to have what he believed was a “normal” relationship with a woman. After his and Jack’s final confrontation about Mexico, Ennis realizes that it is Jack he truly loves, and he simply cannot continue in his attempts at a relationship with Cassie, thus her confronting him in the diner about his whereabouts and her frustrations and painful realization that she’s not “the one.”

With the mindset that Jack was going to still meet up with Ennis in November, do you think anything would have been different? Would Ennis really have done anything differently even after accepting that Jack is "the one"? I like to think yes but I really can't say for sure. Ennis was so crippled by his fear that I'm not even sure his accepting Jack as "the one" would push him to attempting to make anything different. All part of the tragedy, I suppose.  :\'(

[ksxks]

If Ennis was ready to finally call it quits on trying to have a "normal" relationship, he was in the process of change.  Life is change and growth -- Ennis wasn't totally some stuck old mule who always refused to budge.  He did take baby steps.  I like to think after the "confrontation," he was ready to make a change.  We didn't see what happened after their argument and before Ennis drove away, but hopefully there was some expression of love.  And/or maybe an ultimatum from Jack.  So maybe Ennis was looking forward to November, to a new phase for them, ready to tell Jack he wanted to try to be together in the way Jack wanted.

This is what I like to think anyway.  Maybe wishful thinking, but...

As to Jack and Randall being temporary, tpe, by temporary I meant that they're both married, right?  It's not like a committed relationship or anything.

kathy

[carbyville]

If Ennis was ready to finally call it quits on trying to have a "normal" relationship, he was in the process of change.  Life is change and growth -- Ennis wasn't totally some stuck old mule who always refused to budge.  He did take baby steps.  I like to think after the "confrontation," he was ready to make a change.  We didn't see what happened after their argument and before Ennis drove away, but hopefully there was some expression of love.  And/or maybe an ultimatum from Jack.  So maybe Ennis was looking forward to November, to a new phase for them, ready to tell Jack he wanted to try to be together in the way Jack wanted.

This is what I like to think anyway.  Maybe wishful thinking, but...

As to Jack and Randall being temporary, tpe, by temporary I meant that they're both married, right?  It's not like a committed relationship or anything.

kathy

I do think that Ennis was definitely looking forward to November.  What would have been said during this trip is anyone's guess. I do believe that Jack would have come and he never would have been able to quit Ennis. I guess it is one big circle because if Ennis were to step up and finally live with Jack, I start wonder if Jack would have questioned his sincerity, especially if he was considering living with Randall and fixing up his father's ranch.

[rick65]

I can definitely see Randall as "temporary," despite the words Jack may have told his father, despite the words John Sr. throws at Ennis when he visits after the heartbreaking news. By "temporary" I mean "substitute". Jack, IMO, had Randall as a substitute, while Randall may also have had Jack as a substitute, or filling-in. Since we really have no idea about Randall's intentions, all this is speculation on my part.
   AP may have said, "There was some open space..." but the crux of this story is that the "Truth," the true love I mean, belonged to Jack and Ennis, anything else just wasn't complete, but simply a crutch on which to lean on while one waited for the other to be there.
Jack tried desperately to feel like he felt with Ennis, but he knew it wasn't anywhere else.

[carbyville]

I can definitely see Randall as "temporary," despite the words Jack may have told his father, despite the words John Sr. throws at Ennis when he visits after the heartbreaking news. By "temporary" I mean "substitute". Jack, IMO, had Randall as a substitute, while Randall may also have had Jack as a substitute, or filling-in. Since we really have no idea about Randall's intentions, all this is speculation on my part.
   AP may have said, "There was some open space..." but the crux of this story is that the "Truth," the true love I mean, belonged to Jack and Ennis, anything else just wasn't complete, but simply a crutch on which to lean on while one waited for the other to be there.
Jack tried desperately to feel like he felt with Ennis, but he knew it wasn't anywhere else.

Substitue. Great word! I think where I get hung up with is how bitter Jack had become by the end. His hopes were crushed every single trip and worst of all after Ennis's divorce. In the end, I always come to the same place, if Ennis and Jack had met in November and Ennis finally let himself be with Jack completely outside of the mountains, Jack would accept him. The inner psychologist in me always springs up new ideas on me, though 

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

I think you are right.  Despite Jack's bitterness, he would have welcomed a chance for a life with Ennis whenever Ennis was ready.

[greenfrog]

But would have Jack considered Randall as temporary?  I wonder.  I believe that Jack never gave up his love for Ennis.  But I believe that he had given up hope of living with him.  Something inside me wants to believe that he will continue to see Ennis.  And who knows what the future would bring to their love?  But at the time of his death, I cannot discount the possibility that Jack intended not to see Ennis again, and try to build something permanent with Randall.

 :\'(  :\'(  :\'(  :\'(  :\'(

[tpe]

But would have Jack considered Randall as temporary?  I wonder.  I believe that Jack never gave up his love for Ennis.  But I believe that he had given up hope of living with him.  Something inside me wants to believe that he will continue to see Ennis.  And who knows what the future would bring to their love?  But at the time of his death, I cannot discount the possibility that Jack intended not to see Ennis again, and try to build something permanent with Randall.

You also have to factor in the revelation that Ennis supposedly had during that fight on their last meeting. According to Diana Ossana, after that last meeting Ennis realized that Jack was the love of his life.

Diana Ossana: Cassie somewhat exemplifies Ennis’s continual denial of his emotional makeup, and his attempts to have what he believed was a “normal” relationship with a woman. After his and Jack’s final confrontation about Mexico, Ennis realizes that it is Jack he truly loves, and he simply cannot continue in his attempts at a relationship with Cassie, thus her confronting him in the diner about his whereabouts and her frustrations and painful realization that she’s not “the one.”

With the mindset that Jack was going to still meet up with Ennis in November, do you think anything would have been different? Would Ennis really have done anything differently even after accepting that Jack is "the one"? I like to think yes but I really can't say for sure. Ennis was so crippled by his fear that I'm not even sure his accepting Jack as "the one" would push him to attempting to make anything different. All part of the tragedy, I suppose.  :\'(

Thank you, carbyville, for the wonderful quote from DO.  Like you, I am in limbo as to what Ennis might have done.  I do think he finally realized that Jack was "the one", and his break-up with Cassie was a manifestation of this realization.  Ennis will be faithful to Jack, but like you, I don't know if he will abide a life of love together.

[CrimsonSky]

But would have Jack considered Randall as temporary?  I wonder.  I believe that Jack never gave up his love for Ennis.  But I believe that he had given up hope of living with him.  Something inside me wants to believe that he will continue to see Ennis.  And who knows what the future would bring to their love?  But at the time of his death, I cannot discount the possibility that Jack intended not to see Ennis again, and try to build something permanent with Randall.

I think that may well have been true in the immediate aftermath of their final argument, when Jack went to Lighting Flat (hence telling his dad about Randall), but once he'd had time to calm down he would've changed his mind, or at least not rushed into making any decisions at that point until he'd seen Ennis again in November (hence why  Jack and Randall moving to Lightning Flat "never came to pass"). I can't believe that Jack would just break off all contact with Ennis and set up home with Randall without giving it one last try with Ennis, giving him an ultimatum "if you don't want to be with me, there's someone else who will".It's quite possible that Jack would think that even the threat of losing Jack for good might not be enough to make Ennis change his mind, but he still would've thought it was surely worth a try? I don't think Jack would have given up on Ennis without being 100% sure that there was nothing else he could do to try and convince him. And after 20 years, he wouldn't end it by just disappearing to Lightning Flat, or wherever, with Randall, he would have the decency to tell Ennis to his face it was over, and the reasons why. If Ennis had still refused, then yes, maybe Jack would've accepted that a life with Randall was better than nothing, but I firmly believe he would've told Ennis about it first, in the hope Ennis would talk him out of it.
Maybe it's my wishful thinking, but the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the threat of losing Jack to Randall would have been enough to persuade Ennis. He seems to accept that it's pointless him trying to have a relationship with anyone else, by dumping Cassie (and I think that has less to do with Cassie being a woman than with her not being Jack), and he also can't handle the thought of Jack having affairs,casual sex or whatever you want to call it, with other men. For all that Ennis effectively sweeps it under the carpet, there's no way he could just forget about it and he also would've figured out that the ranch foreman's wife was actually the ranch foreman, and he would've had months between the argument and November to think about Jack, wondering what he was doing,and who with, the jealousy would've been unbearable...I think that's why Ennis sends the postcard,now that he knows Jack has other options,he feels vulnerable and he needs reassurance that he's still Jack's number one, so to speak. Of course, it's only with Jack's death that Ennis finally realises what he's lost, and regrets not taking the chance he had of sharing his life with Jack, but if Jack had lived, maybe the threat of losing him to Randall would have had the same effect, but while there was still time for a happier outcome *sigh* All these "if only"'s... :\'( :\'( :\'(

Just noticed that on the "last post" thing on the main page, it looks like it says "Jack's love for...CrimsonSky" Hehehe  

[welshwitch]

One of the things that worries me about "what happened after?" questions is that in the final confrontation they both said things they'd kept to themsleves for a long time. Each knew more about the other than they'd ever done. After something like that it may be possible to start again, but one would feel differntly about the other person. more in Ennis's case, when Jack admits to going to Mexico and implies that Ennis shouldn't object; he also tells Jack that he blames him for what he, Ennis, has become. It wouldn;t take much for him to work out that in talking about the ranch foreman's wife Jack has told another lie. While they might meet again, could theoretically settle down together, all these things will be there in the background and must surely affect them both. Do you forgive over and over again? Probably, if you love someone enough, but whethr you trust them totally again is another question.

[carbyville]

One of the things that worries me about "what happened after?" questions is that in the final confrontation they both said things they'd kept to themsleves for a long time. Each knew more about the other than they'd ever done. After something like that it may be possible to start again, but one would feel differntly about the other person. more in Ennis's case, when Jack admits to going to Mexico and implies that Ennis shouldn't object; he also tells Jack that he blames him for what he, Ennis, has become. It wouldn;t take much for him to work out that in talking about the ranch foreman's wife Jack has told another lie. While they might meet again, could theoretically settle down together, all these things will be there in the background and must surely affect them both. Do you forgive over and over again? Probably, if you love someone enough, but whethr you trust them totally again is another question.

Very good point. I don't see that being much of an obstacle, though. Ennis could have easily just left things in Jack's hands and never wrote the postcard asking him about Pine Creek in November, but he did. He wanted to continue the relationship and maybe (all speculation of course) wanted to talk things out with Jack more extensively as opposed to yelling and saying things out of anger and frustration. The air will have to be cleared before anything else is pursued, though, no doubt about it.

Ennis might have a little trouble getting over what he learned about Jack, but I don't think it'd have any more negative effect on them than the past 20 years have, already. The damage has already been done and November should have been about starting new with the possibility of growth and change on Ennis's part and the long overdue fulfillment of life on Jack's.

But then again, I'm always striving to be the optimist.   

[lamusica]

Well, I'm an optimist, too.  I don't think anything new was revealed in the scene where they last met and had the argument.  Ennis already knew that Jack went to Mexico and what that meant.  They both knew everything that the other one shouted out in anger.  I don't see any new revelations.  Consequently, I think this argument was not something that would keep them apart.  I believe both men assumed they would see each other in November, just as always.  Ennis just wrote the postcard for clarification of the date.
     When two people are an close as those two, they know each other pretty well.  There are few secrets.  Arguments, though, do occur, but they, too, are soon put aside.  Making up is such fun!  I do believe they would have made up in November.  However, Jack wanted more and got involved with Randall.  I don't for one minute think Randall took Ennis' place.  He was merely convenient.  I don't believe there was any love between Jack and Randall --- just sex - convenient sex -- while Jack was apart from Ennis. Just MHO.

[ksxks]

Well, I'm an optimist, too.  I don't think anything new was revealed in the scene where they last met and had the argument.  Ennis already knew that Jack went to Mexico and what that meant.  They both knew everything that the other one shouted out in anger.  I don't see any new revelations.  Consequently, I think this argument was not something that would keep them apart.  I believe both men assumed they would see each other in November, just as always.  Ennis just wrote the postcard for clarification of the date.
     When two people are an close as those two, they know each other pretty well.  There are few secrets.  Arguments, though, do occur, but they, too, are soon put aside.  Making up is such fun!  I do believe they would have made up in November.  However, Jack wanted more and got involved with Randall.  I don't for one minute think Randall took Ennis' place.  He was merely convenient.  I don't believe there was any love between Jack and Randall --- just sex - convenient sex -- while Jack was apart from Ennis. Just MHO.

Good point -- that this was nothing new between them.  But I think maybe it hadn't been expressed like that before.  I think Jack's frustration had reached the breaking point.  Yes, I do believe they would have made up; but I don't think that this was anything like a repeat of some old stuff they'd already fought about.  In that sense, it was "new," because hurling all that at each other, and then Ennis's breaking down like he did, was more intense than that bickering we saw in earlier scenes of their later fishing trips.

And, I think Randall was a little more than sex -- some kind of compatible companionship.  Going to that cabin Randall mentioned.  Being able to be themselves, when in both of their lives they played a role in public and with family.  They probably had a "nice" time together, and some warm or maybe even hot sex, but it wasn't love with a capital L.

kathy

[tpe]

But would have Jack considered Randall as temporary?  I wonder.  I believe that Jack never gave up his love for Ennis.  But I believe that he had given up hope of living with him.  Something inside me wants to believe that he will continue to see Ennis.  And who knows what the future would bring to their love?  But at the time of his death, I cannot discount the possibility that Jack intended not to see Ennis again, and try to build something permanent with Randall.

I think that may well have been true in the immediate aftermath of their final argument, when Jack went to Lighting Flat (hence telling his dad about Randall), but once he'd had time to calm down he would've changed his mind, or at least not rushed into making any decisions at that point until he'd seen Ennis again in November (hence why  Jack and Randall moving to Lightning Flat "never came to pass"). I can't believe that Jack would just break off all contact with Ennis and set up home with Randall without giving it one last try with Ennis, giving him an ultimatum "if you don't want to be with me, there's someone else who will".It's quite possible that Jack would think that even the threat of losing Jack for good might not be enough to make Ennis change his mind, but he still would've thought it was surely worth a try? I don't think Jack would have given up on Ennis without being 100% sure that there was nothing else he could do to try and convince him. And after 20 years, he wouldn't end it by just disappearing to Lightning Flat, or wherever, with Randall, he would have the decency to tell Ennis to his face it was over, and the reasons why. If Ennis had still refused, then yes, maybe Jack would've accepted that a life with Randall was better than nothing, but I firmly believe he would've told Ennis about it first, in the hope Ennis would talk him out of it.
Maybe it's my wishful thinking, but the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the threat of losing Jack to Randall would have been enough to persuade Ennis. He seems to accept that it's pointless him trying to have a relationship with anyone else, by dumping Cassie (and I think that has less to do with Cassie being a woman than with her not being Jack), and he also can't handle the thought of Jack having affairs,casual sex or whatever you want to call it, with other men. For all that Ennis effectively sweeps it under the carpet, there's no way he could just forget about it and he also would've figured out that the ranch foreman's wife was actually the ranch foreman, and he would've had months between the argument and November to think about Jack, wondering what he was doing,and who with, the jealousy would've been unbearable...I think that's why Ennis sends the postcard,now that he knows Jack has other options,he feels vulnerable and he needs reassurance that he's still Jack's number one, so to speak. Of course, it's only with Jack's death that Ennis finally realises what he's lost, and regrets not taking the chance he had of sharing his life with Jack, but if Jack had lived, maybe the threat of losing him to Randall would have had the same effect, but while there was still time for a happier outcome *sigh* All these "if only"'s... :\'( :\'( :\'(

Just noticed that on the "last post" thing on the main page, it looks like it says "Jack's love for...CrimsonSky" Hehehe  

Well said, CrimsonSky.  I also can't discount the possibility that Jack was giving Ennis an ultimatum in the guise of Randall...

[tpe]

Well, I'm an optimist, too.  I don't think anything new was revealed in the scene where they last met and had the argument.  Ennis already knew that Jack went to Mexico and what that meant.  They both knew everything that the other one shouted out in anger.  I don't see any new revelations.  Consequently, I think this argument was not something that would keep them apart.  I believe both men assumed they would see each other in November, just as always.  Ennis just wrote the postcard for clarification of the date.
     When two people are an close as those two, they know each other pretty well.  There are few secrets.  Arguments, though, do occur, but they, too, are soon put aside.  Making up is such fun!  I do believe they would have made up in November.  However, Jack wanted more and got involved with Randall.  I don't for one minute think Randall took Ennis' place.  He was merely convenient.  I don't believe there was any love between Jack and Randall --- just sex - convenient sex -- while Jack was apart from Ennis. Just MHO.

Good point -- that this was nothing new between them.  But I think maybe it hadn't been expressed like that before.  I think Jack's frustration had reached the breaking point.  Yes, I do believe they would have made up; but I don't think that this was anything like a repeat of some old stuff they'd already fought about.  In that sense, it was "new," because hurling all that at each other, and then Ennis's breaking down like he did, was more intense than that bickering we saw in earlier scenes of their later fishing trips.

And, I think Randall was a little more than sex -- some kind of compatible companionship.  Going to that cabin Randall mentioned.  Being able to be themselves, when in both of their lives they played a role in public and with family.  They probably had a "nice" time together, and some warm or maybe even hot sex, but it wasn't love with a capital L.

kathy

I do agree that they were able to torque things back to almost where they were during the last meeting.  But I suspect that if Jack had a nerw resolve to break things of or test Ennis it must have occured after the last meeting.  And I think it could be precisely the fact that things remained unchanged (after 20 years) that finally pushed Jack over the edge.

Personally, I do believe that Randall became more than just sex.  Jack wanted to share a life together with him.  The only other person he asked to do this with him was Ennis.

[ksxks]

I do agree that they were able to torque things back to almost where they were during the last meeting.  But I suspect that if Jack had a nerw resolve to break things of or test Ennis it must have occured after the last meeting.  And I think it could be precisely the fact that things remained unchanged (after 20 years) that finally pushed Jack over the edge.

Personally, I do believe that Randall became more than just sex.  Jack wanted to share a life together with him.  The only other person he asked to do this with him was Ennis.

Do those of you who think Jack had a more "serious" thing with Randall base that mostly on what Jack apparently said to his father, that his father said to Ennis?  If not for just that statement, I otherwise wouldn't have given the idea of Jack wanting a "life" with Randall very much thought at all.  Is there more in the SS or SP about him?  I guess I don't love thinking about Jack having yet totally given up on Ennis...

kathy

[CrimsonSky]

Personally, I do believe that Randall became more than just sex.  Jack wanted to share a life together with him.  The only other person he asked to do this with him was Ennis.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't know that it was Jack who asked Randall, do we? I can't watch any of the scenes from their last night onwards on their own, only when I'm watching the whole film (not sure why, it just doesn't feel right watching any of it out of context ) so my memory of the scene where Jack's dad talks about Jack and Randall moving to LF is a bit sketchy, but I'm sure he says something like "he's got some other guy..." not "he asked some other guy..." or "he wanted some other guy..."  I've always felt that it was Randall's idea for him and Jack to move somewhere together, after all, it was Randall who made the first move on Jack in the first place, ok Jack did nothing to discourage him, but it's pretty clear (imo) that Randall was more into Jack than vice-versa. I'm not saying it didn't become more than just sex at some point,I'm sure Jack must have grown to have some sort of affection for him, but I can't see it being much more than just affection, because emotionally he didn't have anything more to give Randall,any love he had to give was for Ennis, so I don't think sharing the rest of his life with Randall would've occured to Jack, because that place in his dream was reserved for Ennis.
  Randall, on the other hand (unless he had an "Ennis" himself, but assuming he didn't), could have easily fallen in love with Jack (well, haven't we all? ) and had the same idyllic fantasy about him and Jack living together. Jack could've talked to him about his parents' ranch,(presumably that's where he told Randall he was going when he went to be with Ennis), how it was in a bad way, etc, and Randall, being a ranch foreman himself, could've seen it a possibility for their future together and tried to sell the idea to Jack before that last meeting with Ennis. I think Jack would've rejected the idea at first, then after the argument with Ennis,angry and tired and broken as he was,thought it might be better to take what was on offer than waste anymore time waiting for something he was never going to get.
 I know I'm really stubborn where this subject is concerned, I just can't accept that Jack was ever serious about living with Randall(at least not without telling Ennis about it first), so maybe that stubborness is clouding my thinking (such as it is ) here, but it makes more sense to me for Randall to be the one suggesting he and Jack live together.   

[lamusica]

Even if Jack had some feelings for Randall, other than just someone to cut the loneliness he felt without access to Ennis, were he given the choice between Randall or Ennis, I believe he would have chosen Ennis hands down.  Ennis was a twenty-year love --not a two, three year relationship.  Jack may have been willing to settle for Randall, but only because Ennis would not make himself available.  Ennis gave himself physically, and maybe emotionally at some given times, but he would not make the big commitment to Jack that Jack wanted -- and probably never would have made that commitment.  Randall, on the other hand, may have been willing to dump his wife for Jack.  Who knows?  I just see nothing in the movie that leads me to believe Randall was all that important to Jack.  No matter what old John Twist says Jack told him.  Jack's body language when Randall first comes on to him says it all.  He is not interested.  Now, when Ennis rejected him in their last scene together, that might have changed somewhat.  From personal experience, though, when someone is not attractive to me, that is not likely to change, no matter what happens.

[ksxks]

Even if Jack had some feelings for Randall, other than just someone to cut the loneliness he felt without access to Ennis, were he given the choice between Randall or Ennis, I believe he would have chosen Ennis hands down.  Ennis was a twenty-year love --not a two, three year relationship.  Jack may have been willing to settle for Randall, but only because Ennis would not make himself available.  Ennis gave himself physically, and maybe emotionally at some given times, but he would not make the big commitment to Jack that Jack wanted -- and probably never would have made that commitment.  Randall, on the other hand, may have been willing to dump his wife for Jack.  Who knows?  I just see nothing in the movie that leads me to believe Randall was all that important to Jack.  No matter what old John Twist says Jack told him.  Jack's body language when Randall first comes on to him says it all.  He is not interested.  Now, when Ennis rejected him in their last scene together, that might have changed somewhat.  From personal experience, though, when someone is not attractive to me, that is not likely to change, no matter what happens.

I did see a spark of attraction, when they were sitting at the table.  They certainly "picked up on" each other, eyes held a little too long...and even though Jack looked away, he didn't look away in disgust or anything.  He had a very intriguing look on his face, a little half-smile.  As far as when they were out on the bench, and Randall made basically overt comments to him, I didn't see that Jack wasn't interested, as much as I saw Jack was kind of surprised at the invitation and wasn't sure how he wanted to respond yet.

Having said all that, I don't think either that Jack had or developed an abiding love for Randall, but as I said earlier, I can see him finding a nice companionship with sex...

kathy

[greenfrog]

I think Jack definately loved Randall and found some good company with him in his final years. But that being said, Randall was not Ennis and would probably never completely fill the void that Ennis left in Jack's heart.  :\'(  :\'(  :\'(

[NoReins]

You know, I'm not even convinced that Jack and Randall discussed living together. Right up to (and beyond?) their final meeting, Jack still dreamed of a life with Ennis, even if he also had some kind of "thing" going with Randall (and, for what it's worth, I still believe that was nothing more than sex and Jack would have given it up in an instant if Ennis made any sort of move towards commitment) Then, right after that meeting, Jack goes up to Lightning Flat and, feeling angry, upset and defeated, tells his folks that he's got someone else that he's going to bring up there, unable to speak of Ennis any more because it causes him too much pain. He uses Randall (maybe even without naming him) as a defence mechanism against his own pain and as a way to ward off any questions his father may have been asking about Ennis. Maybe he would have talked to Randall about moving up there afterwards if he really believed that he and Ennis were finished but I'm certain he wouldn't have done it while he was still seeing Ennis.

Just my feeling....I'm pretty stubborn when it comes to my belief that Jack could never have shared a life with anyone other than Ennis or loved anyone other than Ennis.

[tpe]

Do those of you who think Jack had a more "serious" thing with Randall base that mostly on what Jack apparently said to his father, that his father said to Ennis?  If not for just that statement, I otherwise wouldn't have given the idea of Jack wanting a "life" with Randall very much thought at all.  Is there more in the SS or SP about him?  I guess I don't love thinking about Jack having yet totally given up on Ennis...

kathy

Hello kathy.  Yes, I guess I base it on this statement as well as what some of the deleted scenes seem to suggest.   And I also base it on Jake Gyllenhaal's comments about Ennis's love being more faithful than Jack's.  These are subject to interpretation of course. 

[tpe]

Personally, I do believe that Randall became more than just sex.  Jack wanted to share a life together with him.  The only other person he asked to do this with him was Ennis.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't know that it was Jack who asked Randall, do we? I can't watch any of the scenes from their last night onwards on their own, only when I'm watching the whole film (not sure why, it just doesn't feel right watching any of it out of context ) so my memory of the scene where Jack's dad talks about Jack and Randall moving to LF is a bit sketchy, but I'm sure he says something like "he's got some other guy..." not "he asked some other guy..." or "he wanted some other guy..."  I've always felt that it was Randall's idea for him and Jack to move somewhere together, after all, it was Randall who made the first move on Jack in the first place, ok Jack did nothing to discourage him, but it's pretty clear (imo) that Randall was more into Jack than vice-versa. I'm not saying it didn't become more than just sex at some point,I'm sure Jack must have grown to have some sort of affection for him, but I can't see it being much more than just affection, because emotionally he didn't have anything more to give Randall,any love he had to give was for Ennis, so I don't think sharing the rest of his life with Randall would've occured to Jack, because that place in his dream was reserved for Ennis.
  Randall, on the other hand (unless he had an "Ennis" himself, but assuming he didn't), could have easily fallen in love with Jack (well, haven't we all? ) and had the same idyllic fantasy about him and Jack living together. Jack could've talked to him about his parents' ranch,(presumably that's where he told Randall he was going when he went to be with Ennis), how it was in a bad way, etc, and Randall, being a ranch foreman himself, could've seen it a possibility for their future together and tried to sell the idea to Jack before that last meeting with Ennis. I think Jack would've rejected the idea at first, then after the argument with Ennis,angry and tired and broken as he was,thought it might be better to take what was on offer than waste anymore time waiting for something he was never going to get.
 I know I'm really stubborn where this subject is concerned, I just can't accept that Jack was ever serious about living with Randall(at least not without telling Ennis about it first), so maybe that stubborness is clouding my thinking (such as it is ) here, but it makes more sense to me for Randall to be the one suggesting he and Jack live together.   

This is a good point.  I had always assumed that it was Jack who would have asked because of his love for a shared life together.  Still, I cannot discount that it was perhaps Randall who aksed him first if he wanted to move in together.

Another reason why I think it was Jack who asked Randall was that we seem to get the impression that it was to Jack's home that they would be moving to.  This fits the pattern of Jack's desire to share a life with someone he loved.  If Randall was the one who initially asked, then it is a bit hard to think that he would have volunteered Jack's home to be the place where they would settle down.  Of course, Jack may well have offered his parent's ranch after Randall had proposed living with him, but I think this seems to indicate that he was the one who proposed this idea initially to Randall.

[tpe]

Even if Jack had some feelings for Randall, other than just someone to cut the loneliness he felt without access to Ennis, were he given the choice between Randall or Ennis, I believe he would have chosen Ennis hands down.  Ennis was a twenty-year love --not a two, three year relationship.  Jack may have been willing to settle for Randall, but only because Ennis would not make himself available.  Ennis gave himself physically, and maybe emotionally at some given times, but he would not make the big commitment to Jack that Jack wanted -- and probably never would have made that commitment.  Randall, on the other hand, may have been willing to dump his wife for Jack.  Who knows?  I just see nothing in the movie that leads me to believe Randall was all that important to Jack.  No matter what old John Twist says Jack told him.  Jack's body language when Randall first comes on to him says it all.  He is not interested.  Now, when Ennis rejected him in their last scene together, that might have changed somewhat.  From personal experience, though, when someone is not attractive to me, that is not likely to change, no matter what happens.

Yes, this is a very valid question:  even with Randall now at his side, would Jack have been able to live without Ennis for very long?  I suspect not.  But we shall never know as he died before anything happened.