Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: brokebackmountain on Dec 18, 2005, 12:53 AM
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After watching the movie twice, I am still not sure how Jack died. Was he really murdered or died from the accident as described by his wife?
What is your take on this?
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I feel he died from the accident. But ennis was fearing it was possible that he could have been murdered, due to the story he told of his father and the murder earlier in the film.
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I pondered with this answer myself. I think his wife knew how he died, she tries to conceal the information, but when she found out that Brokeback Mountain is a real place, a tear is shed and the truth exposed, I think he was murdered, she is trying perhaps, to be as gentle as she can with Enis...
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Hey Ocean Blue and Ralph,
Thanks for stopping by and posting. After I saw the movie for the second time and paid a close attention to that few seconds, I think Jack was murdered (as much as I wanted to believe it was an accident).
Part of the reason why I really like this movie is that it leaves a lot of room for your own intepretation.
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I read the story, and deeply thought about many clues in the movie.
1. When Ennis visited Jack's parents, the dad said that although Jack had often spoke of bringing Ennis up to the ranch, he had most recently disclosed that he had a new "friend", a neighbor rancher, that he would be bringing up to the ranch to live. The father also said that Jack had decided to leave his wife.
2. There was a scene where Jack was talking to a neighbor rancher, who asked him to go to a cabin for a weekend, alone, a clear reference that the two of them would have private time to be intimate.
3. I think Jack started a relationship with another rancher, and told his wife he was leaving her, for a man.
4. I think the wife's father, big dady-in-law, was full of rage, he always despised Jack. I think the father-in-law arranged for Jack to be murdered.
5. I think Jack's wife knew what her daddy arranged for her. Her daddy was not going to let his princess be the laughing stock of the county, so he had Jack bumped off. That is why she pretended not to know who Ennis was when he called. This was all a calculated diminuation of who Jack had been. She was already cut off, as Jack had long since turned to regular sex with other men, out side of Ennis.
So yes, Jack was murdered by thugs hired by his Father-in-law.
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I read the story, and deeply thought about many clues in the movie.
1. When Ennis visited Jack's parents, the dad said that although Jack had often spoke of bringing Ennis up to the ranch, he had most recently disclosed that he had a new "friend", a neighbor rancher, that he would be bringing up to the ranch to live. The father also said that Jack had decided to leave his wife.
2. There was a scene where Jack was talking to a neighbor rancher, who asked him to go to a cabin for a weekend, alone, a clear reference that the two of them would have private time to be intimate.
3. I think Jack started a relationship with another rancher, and told his wife he was leaving her, for a man.
4. I think the wife's father, big dady-in-law, was full of rage, he always despised Jack. I think the father-in-law arranged for Jack to be murdered.
5. I think Jack's wife knew what her daddy arranged for her. Her daddy was not going to let his princess be the laughing stock of the county, so he had Jack bumped off. That is why she pretended not to know who Ennis was when he called. This was all a calculated diminuation of who Jack had been. She was already cut off, as Jack had long since turned to regular sex with other men, out side of Ennis.
So yes, Jack was murdered by thugs hired by his Father-in-law.
Hi Lamar, the more I think about it and also after reading your analysis, I am convinced that Jack was killed as the quick flash in the movie suggested. Thanks for your detailed insights.
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I can believe that Jack was possibly murdered--however(haven't gotten to see the movie yet, but from the book) I doubt his father-in-law had much to do with it, as by that time, he was dead, and Lureen/Jack were running his business.
not that in fit of bad temper, Lureen couldn't have hired someone---or even more likely--some one connected to the neighboring rancher---one of his relatives that did not want the status quo disturbed. Jack would have been the cause therefore make it easy to blame him/take it out on him.
But I still like to think that is was an accident, tho maybe not exactly the one described by Lureen, but still accidental. There are lots of ways that could have happened.
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I think the point is that it could have been either way. I think that Ennis thinks that it was the tire-iron, but I also think that maybe he has to think that to justify things in his mind.
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I really think it is his father-in-law buddies too, they don't like eachother
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It is meant to be ambiguous. Ennis' "idea" of how Jack died, shows how dangerous he thought it was to come out (and why, ultimately, they could never be together). I'm getting choked up just thinking about it.
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It is meant to be ambiguous. Ennis' "idea" of how Jack died, shows how dangerous he thought it was to come out (and why, ultimately, they could never be together). I'm getting choked up just thinking about it.
Welcome, guns_goin_off and thanks for your posting. It does indeed to be ambiguous. Many who have seen this movie are just left with questions. One thing is certain though - the love between Ennis and Jack.
I, for one, find these questions unsettling in a good way. These questions can really be answered based on the viewers like to their satisfaction so they can "rationalize" the reasons to such tragic story.
Again welcome and hope to read many other posts from you. :)
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The more I read it, the more I feel it doesn't matter. He may well have been murdered, but just as easily could have died from an accident. It isn't really relvant to the story.
What is relvant is the fact that with Jack being gone---we are left with veiwing Ennis' complete sense of loss, and total devestation by it. It is really is about the Loss and the dealing with it that makes the strength of the depth of Ennis' feelings/reactions. Just my thoughts about it.
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The more I read it, the more I feel it doesn't matter. He may well have been murdered, but just as easily could have died from an accident. It isn't really relvant to the story.
What is relvant is the fact that with Jack being gone---we are left with veiwing Ennis' complete sense of loss, and total devestation by it. It is really is about the Loss and the dealing with it that makes the strength of the depth of Ennis' feelings/reactions. Just my thoughts about it.
I agree, ranchgal. Questions such as "are Jake and Ennis gay?," "Did Jack's wife know?" and "How did they attract each other?" don't really matter to the love between Ennis and Jake.
We are human and have the tendency to reason every possible things and rationalize the outcome. What makes us draw to the story is not just the true love between two people but also all the possibilities could have happened.
For many of us to accept the conclusion, we don't want to be left hanging and the beauty of this movie is - it is YOU who makes the intepretation. Thus, we are discussing and trying to "make sense."
After my 4th viewing, here is what I can say - maybe it was a flash in Ennis's mind that Jack was murdered, maybe Jack was really killed, or maybe Jack really died from the accident.
Coupled with Lureen's statement and Jack's father's reaction, I tend to believe that Jack was murdered (as much as I didn't want to think this is the case)
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the last paragraph of the book (the last 2 really) tells me, that it doesn't matter, and Ennis didn't really know either.
SPOILER.....
"There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it."
And in his dreams the spoon Jack used to stir the camp food turns into a tire iron from time to time. He really didn't know either if Jack died or was killed, and going over it and dreaming about it, did help it get any clearer. Every thought about it was within his own head and sensibilities---and I think we are right---it doesn't matter---what matters is Jack is gone, and Ennis is still here, alone.
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In the short story, there's a line near the end when Ennis is a Jack's house and Jack's dad is telling him that in recent times, he's talked about bring a new guy up to tend to the ranch and its basically "and now Ennis knew that it was the tire iron that had done him in"
It could be either though, and it doesn't really matter in the end... I think Ennis chose to reflect more on Jack's life with him than his death
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great to read all these different interpretations. i agree, though, that the cause of jack's death is irrelevant in the face of his absence from ennis' life. i think if the movie had meant to focus more on the cause of death, ennis would have been more emotional on the phone with lureen.
i still don't have a definite idea on what happened to jack, and hope to pick up on more details on this issue and many others in the film by rewatching it
but..i can't help but be discouraged by (and correct me if i'm wrong, i may be recalling this incorrectly) lureen's almost forced stoicity and matter-of-fact voice when explaining to ennis what had happened to jack, which seems to reveal that she couldn't bear to recount the truth to herself or anyone else. only her eyes seemed to betray the emotion. and at that moment, i think, ennis read what was truly behind her words. that's what i think anyway. :'( but it might change after i watch the film again. hm.
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I think that Jack was murdered too.....my evidence to this fact is that in the preview there is a scene that is not in the finished print. The scene is of what appears to be 2 garage hands and one is holding a tire iron.
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Did you saw it was '' young '' Jack without a PORNSTACHE?(at the end of the movie he does have pornstache) I just realised that.. Maybe he is not dead after all(divorcing? ahh Lureen and Jack is married by the way?) BBM2? ahahh keep dreaming Krisp..
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Today, when i saw the film for the second time, in the attack scene, Jack did have his moustache.
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Really? Oh well I saw in others threads (imbd *something like that) He looked younger and I didn't saw his pornstache.. brokebackmountain can you confirm it? you saw the movie 5times..
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Did you saw it was '' young '' Jack without a PORNSTACHE?(at the end of the movie he does have pornstache) I just realised that.. Maybe he is not dead after all(divorcing? ahh Lureen and Jack is married by the way?) BBM2? ahahh keep dreaming Krisp..
As much as I love BBM, no BBM2 please. :) It has all the possibilities ...since the audience did not really witness the crime scene if there has been one.
Funny enough, the thought that Jack didn't die came to my mind as well. One day...Jack might appear in front of Ennis's trailer and say to Ennis -- Ennis f***ing del Mar and then they live happily after. Just my wish. ;D
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Quote:but..i can't help but be discouraged by (and correct me if i'm wrong, i may be recalling this incorrectly) lureen's almost forced stoicity and matter-of-fact voice when explaining to ennis what had happened to jack, which seems to reveal that she couldn't bear to recount the truth to herself or anyone else. only her eyes seemed to betray the emotion. and at that moment, i think, ennis read what was truly behind her words. that's what i think anyway. Cry but it might change after i watch the film again. hm.<Quote>
You know I feel that way to. I am thinking she is lying, but not necessarily about Jack's dying by accident.
I think if she felt Jack was leaving her, for what ever reason, it would reflect on her and look like a failure--and she would lie or at least gloss over what ever did happen, and was happening between them, to keep her feelings away from her. Mad or embarrassed, she may have just been lying about her own feelings and Jacks failures, esp if she figured Ennis was someone she had never met, and had no reason to confide in, except that he was important to Jack, which may actually make her feelings more guarded. As in why should she make any effort to explain much to him.
I am going to have an awful lot of stuff to look for when I finally get to see this movie.
my goodness.
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This matter was brouth to me from my 80 years old mom (we did not see the film together, after I discussed with her about this piece of art she went to see it, and she was very curious from the TV commercials anyways :-*). "don't you think either his wife and/or (vilain) father in law were involved"? Well, clever Lady, she brought something to my attention. Don't I have a nice mom? 80, catholic woman, who is bright enough to concentrate on the "plot" still not beeing very confortable about her only son beeing gay but being full of love and respect? Mummy, you're the best! I love you!
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During their final meeting, Jack says his wife would kill him if she knew he was sneaking off to meet the ranch hand's "wife". But, I think with Lureen's delivery, she was reciting a made up account of Jack's death..to cover up a hate crime. (She was embarrassed that her husband was gay.) Jack was always taking risks meeting guys throughout the movie. I do not think Lureen---had she had a hand in Jack's murder---would have cried when she realized that Jack had loved Ennis on BBM. I don't know..but wasn't the short story BBM written around the time of the murder of Matthew Shepherd?? thanks
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I read somewhere in an interview (or possibly in a video clip) with Annie Proulx (or was it Ang Lee?) that it was likely that Jack was killed with the tire iron and not the story about the blown tire.
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Brokeback, the lost camel again.. wrote on your behalf... well did not meant to do it.
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Brokeback, the lost camel again.. wrote on your behalf... well did not meant to do it.
No problem. I guess the link I sent was not properly copied. Thanks for the posting and yes, your mom is the best. I am glad that she enjoys the movie.
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Hello all---
This question has haunted me many times over and I am still struggling with it, but I offer a few comments.
In the beginning of the film there is some beautiful photography of the landscape, and there is a quick scene of three telephone polls. The arrangement of the polls with the cross beams, to me, at least, is evocative of the crucifixion scene of Jesus atop Calvary. I know, I may be stretching this, but in light of the murder of Matthew Shepherd in Wyoming, I wonder if this is a prefigurement to the violent death that one of the characters will meet, namely Jack. I can't take the credit for the connection to the crucifixion. A friend of mine made it prior to my seeing of the film. I used to be a priest so for me, it was a stark and obvious symbol.
Someone also mentioned that possibly Lureen's gross father arranged for the death of Jack by some thugs in order to save the family from the embarrassment of a gay spouse. That certainly is a possibility. However, in the short story by Annie Proulx, there is mention that the father-in-law died and Lureen inherited the business. This was prior to their final meeting in 1983. Maybe that might shed some light on the mystery.
There was also the scene in Mexico where we see Jack spending some time with hustlers. Recall that Ennis gets rather upset when he hears that Jack had been there and warns him that all the things there could get him killed. This might be another prefigurement to the way that Jack died, which was violently as the scene in the movie depicts.
As many of you have said, I suppose it doesn't matter in the end. Jack was gone and Ennis was faced with a terrible void for the love of his life was gone. And that final scene where Jack is alone in that trailer away from any contact with others, is, for me, truly tragic. But there is a beauty to it all. When Ennis says, "I swear," there is an attestation of deep love, and something that he will cherish to his grave.
Liam56
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Hi
I thought that the movie being set in Wyoming was a reference to Matt Shephard but then found out the author writes about where she is from (in much the same way Stephen King writes about Maine or John Waters writes about Baltimore). Also, the story was written just prior to the murder of Matt Shephard.
The death of Jack is ambigious - is the murder scene Ennis's imagination or is it Lureen's thoughts or is it a real part of the movie?
I actually think it could be all three:
It feels like it's Ennis' imagination - in the short story, he describes the murder of the older guy when he was young as being done with a tyre iron, when he hears of Jack's death he 'realises' he was murdered with a tyre iron, so he's imagining both killings as being for the same reason by the same method.
Another point is that by Lureen's detatched, odd behaviour on the phone, it feels clear that she was giving Ennis a cover story. She knew what Jack got up to and she'd been hearing the name Ennis for 20 years, so she knew who Ennis was even though at first she seemed like she didnt. A friend of mine told me when he went to a friend's funeral in the mid 1980's, the friend had died of an AIDS-related illness but at the funeral the parents were telling people that their son had died of cancer. It's this thing of inventing a story to have a less shameful death - I think this was what Lureen was doing - the scene was what she realised had happened, but she couldnt say it.
I actually thought Jack was going to be beaten up when he and the Mexican lad walked into the darkness, it seemed to denote that Jack took risks, so yes, I do think Jack was murdered and this was a real part of the movie.
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Hi
I thought that the movie being set in Wyoming was a reference to Matt Shephard but then found out the author writes about where she is from (in much the same way Stephen King writes about Maine or John Waters writes about Baltimore). Also, the story was written just prior to the murder of Matt Shephard.
The death of Jack is ambigious - is the murder scene Ennis's imagination or is it Lureen's thoughts or is it a real part of the movie?
I actually think it could be all three:
It feels like it's Ennis' imagination - in the short story, he describes the murder of the older guy when he was young as being done with a tyre iron, when he hears of Jack's death he 'realises' he was murdered with a tyre iron, so he's imagining both killings as being for the same reason by the same method.
Another point is that by Lureen's detatched, odd behaviour on the phone, it feels clear that she was giving Ennis a cover story. She knew what Jack got up to and she'd been hearing the name Ennis for 20 years, so she knew who Ennis was even though at first she seemed like she didnt. A friend of mine told me when he went to a friend's funeral in the mid 1980's, the friend had died of an AIDS-related illness but at the funeral the parents were telling people that their son had died of cancer. It's this thing of inventing a story to have a less shameful death - I think this was what Lureen was doing - the scene was what she realised had happened, but she couldnt say it.
I actually thought Jack was going to be beaten up when he and the Mexican lad walked into the darkness, it seemed to denote that Jack took risks, so yes, I do think Jack was murdered and this was a real part of the movie.
She wrote the story before the Matt Shepard murder.
I think we can know that Jack died due to homophobia since Proulx's point in writing this was to address the tragedy of homophobia.
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She wrote the story before the Matt Shepard murder.
I think we can know that Jack died due to homophobia since Proulx's point in writing this was to address the tragedy of homophobia.
That's interesting, has she said that? Well done to her if that was her intention, it certainly got me all fired up (again) about the issue. The more this issue is acnowledged, the better.
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She wrote the story before the Matt Shepard murder.
I think we can know that Jack died due to homophobia since Proulx's point in writing this was to address the tragedy of homophobia.
That's interesting, has she said that? Well done to her if that was her intention, it certainly got me all fired up (again) about the issue. The more this issue is acnowledged, the better.
Yep that's why she wrote it. I will see if I can link some stories and interviews of her.
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Thanks Toadily - I dont know whether this board is a blessing or a curse but I came to it the first time tonite. Its now 2 am and Ive been on for hours reading all these great insights and opinions! :)
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I know I do the same thing! I can't stop thinking about something and have to find others thoughts!
I actually went back to see it again just to figure out the rodeo clown scene and how it all fit, and it does
famously.
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So yes, Jack was murdered by thugs hired by his Father-in-law.
His father-in-law had already died, though... Laureen inherited his business. Jack says so in the book when he's talking to Ennis.
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Who killed Jack??
I think that ts is impossible to give a name of his murder. Anyway I'm convinced that killer is someone of the intolerant and violent rural Jack ambient.
I though to the rodeo clown who refused the beer offer from Jack; it is clear that after refusing that offer he go to the billiard table and he speaks about Jack with some other cowboy who will look at Jack with bad look...
That is only an episode bur we can suppose that, being Jack so unable to hide his homosexuality, there would be many others in his life. With his behavior he exposed himself to prejudgment and he creates an hostility.
coguaro
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Who killed Jack??
I think that ts is impossible to give a name of his murder. Anyway I'm convinced that killer is someone of the intolerant and violent rural Jack ambient.
I though to the rodeo clown who refused the beer offer from Jack; it is clear that after refusing that offer he go to the billiard table and he speaks about Jack with some other cowboy who will look at Jack with bad look...
That is only an episode bur we can suppose that, being Jack so unable to hide his homosexuality, there would be many others in his life. With his behavior he exposed himself to prejudgment and he creates an hostility.
coguaro
In the short story he died like Lureen tels Ennis.
I guess that what we see (the murder) is maybe just something going on Ennis mind, hes so traumatized... However there is a cut scene, we could see one picture "somewhere" on the net of 2 guys in a garage looking at... Jack? taking orders? At the end of the credits, they mention a killer mechainc, a grease monkey and an assailant. The picture I saw shows the mechanic and the grease monkey.
??? Go figure!
We might go to annieproulx.com and ask them
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Who killed Jack??
I think that ts is impossible to give a name of his murder. Anyway I'm convinced that killer is someone of the intolerant and violent rural Jack ambient.
I though to the rodeo clown who refused the beer offer from Jack; it is clear that after refusing that offer he go to the billiard table and he speaks about Jack with some other cowboy who will look at Jack with bad look...
That is only an episode bur we can suppose that, being Jack so unable to hide his homosexuality, there would be many others in his life. With his behavior he exposed himself to prejudgment and he creates an hostility.
coguaro
Howdy,
I was wondering that maybe we should consider a broader question:
"What killed Jack?"
... because without the story actually providing a bona-fide investigation, we really can only speculate; however, I think you already answered this question.
Peace,
Frank
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Last night I read the short story for the first time (didn’t get to sleep until about 3 a.m. this morning and have had a helluva long day, but maybe once I’ve written this I can go to bed. Hurray!). Proulx’s story and the film rather complement each other, filling in a few gaps to sooth my troubled mind. I agree with those who thought that Ennis’ take on Jack’s demise was what actually happened, although Proulx does leave it up in the air even for Ennis. If someone is just murdered, however terrible that is, you wouldn’t hide telling it even to a stranger who calls to find out what has happened. There is no shame being murdered unless the circumstances surrounding it touch on some kind of scandal. Jack even jokes about being caught by the “rancher’s wife’s husband” or Lureen (what a name! I have encountered it before. O to be in Dixie.). Proulx is so spare with her words that they are all important, though she leaves it with us to wrestle with. If talk-non-stop missus had noticed a decline in her husband’s attentions, or suspected his cabin forays, she’d definitely do some digging, probably worried that some woman like Lureen would get her claws into her husband.
I can see how a gay affair exposed even to a very few in a place like Childress (my grandfather was born in Hugo, OK and grew up moving back and forth across the OK-Texas border and up into the Texas Panhandle) could easily end up as a gay bashing that gets covered up. Small towns hold such secrets with people actually knowing the truth, but no one willing to break ranks and tell the truth.
I was surprised at Lureen’s going against Jack’s wishes and dividing his ashes, burying some in Childress (“we put up a stone”) and sending the rest to his folks so that they could sort out the Wyoming end of things. A widow trying to make it all look respectable? Not that I think she would have been directly involved, but she is definitely holding something back from Ennis and the penny does drop and she begins to understand who Ennis really is. All that peroxide can’t hide them lying eyes! Wonder what happened to the ranch foreman? That would settle the question as far as I’m concerned. Still Crying, Titus.
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It says in the short story, "So now he knew it had been the tire iron."
It seems like Annie Proulx is telling us it was the tire iron. She doesn't write, "Now Ennis guessed it was the tire iron", it's "So now he knew it was the tire iron." And it's deffinitely Jack that they show in that quick flash in the movie.
I had questions about this after first seeing the movie, too -- I hadn't read the short story yet, but after reading the short story several times, it really does fill in some gaps and answers some of these nagging little questions.
I also think Lureen knows perfectly well that her husband was attacked and why he was attacked. It's very typical of these type of white-wash stories to be used around what would be a scandalous situation. I've got relatives from the South and this type of thing goes on all the time. Lureen had a business reputation as well as a social reputation to protect.
And once she heard that Brokeback was a real place, she out figured who Ennis was she felt he was seeking some sort of closure and sent him to Jacks parents out of what little compassion she could muster up. That's my take on it.
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I don't think AP was telling us anything about Jacks dying except he was dead!
Her words about Ennis knew it was the tire iron---Was simply telling us that that is Ennis' INTERPRETATION----it was not fact, he did NOT know---he was the one making the assumptions, and we can make our own.
She gave a perfectly plausible reason for Jack's dying----Ennis put the rest in our heads--from his head, it doesn't come from the story---it comes from Ennis' reactions and assumptions.
you as a reader can take them or leave them.
QUOTE:She wrote the story before the Matt Shepard murder.
I think we can know that Jack died due to homophobia since Proulx's point in writing this was to address the tragedy of homophobia.
QUOTE
I read the interview where she told about how the story came to be, and it didn't involve homophobia at the time---when she gave her reasons for writing this story---she told her own story, about how she had watched an older man in a WY bar---and he was completely ignoring all the sweet young things wandering around and he was watching the younger cowboys play pool and his expression stayed with her(she said it looked so longing and lost to her) and she couldn't get it out of her mind, and this story came to be from that man in that bar, and then it took on a life of its own----it didn't let go of her till she wrote it. But she says she wasn't trying to make any statements, she was just trying to tell the story as it came to her from her own insperation and experiences living with Western people.
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I don't think AP was telling us anything about Jacks dying except he was dead!...
I didn't read the line that way. She didn't write, "So now Ennis assumed it had been the tire iron", or "So now Ennis interpreted it had been the tire iron", she writes, "So now he knew it had been the tire iron." Most writers choose their wording very carefully and A.P. seems to have made it clear.
I also read an interview and have seen on several news reports about the movie and short story that she wanted to write about homophobia. A.P. also made the statement in an interview that "... Wyoming is a homophobic place...", a statement which has generated some response on it's own. Aside from that I don't think she's making any overt statements at all. The potency of her writing lies in implication -- what the characters leave unsaid, so she doesn't tend to make any direct statements anyway.
I know the short story was written before Matthew Shepherd, it never occurred to me that some might think there is some connection -- I'm not quite sure where you're coming from with that statement in response to my post.
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I don't think AP was telling us anything about Jacks dying except he was dead!
Her words about Ennis knew it was the tire iron---Was simply telling us that that is Ennis' INTERPRETATION----it was not fact, he did NOT know---he was the one making the assumptions, and we can make our own.
She gave a perfectly plausible reason for Jack's dying----Ennis put the rest in our heads--from his head, it doesn't come from the story---it comes from Ennis' reactions and assumptions.
you as a reader can take them or leave them.
Hmmm... that was what I was led to believe too; more to the point, what was more important was Ennis' reaction to Jack's death. So, in fact, it was an important scene for the reader/audience to take: as far as Ennis was concerned it was the tire iron (symbolic of homophobia).
QUOTE:She wrote the story before the Matt Shepard murder.
I think we can know that Jack died due to homophobia since Proulx's point in writing this was to address the tragedy of homophobia.
QUOTE
I read the interview where she told about how the story came to be, and it didn't involve homophobia at the time---when she gave her reasons for writing this story---she told her own story, about how she had watched an older man in a WY bar---and he was completely ignoring all the sweet young things wandering around and he was watching the younger cowboys play pool and his expression stayed with her(she said it looked so longing and lost to her) and she couldn't get it out of her mind, and this story came to be from that man in that bar, and then it took on a life of its own----it didn't let go of her till she wrote it. But she says she wasn't trying to make any statements, she was just trying to tell the story as it came to her from her own insperation and experiences living with Western people.
So I guess it begs the question: what was it that she finally observed among the Westpeople as she was writing?
I had thought that in another interview, she did describe that she was writing about homophobia among the Westpeople. Her observations and imagination were then used to realize the story.
Peace,
Frank
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I don't think AP was telling us anything about Jacks dying except he was dead!...
I didn't read the line that way. She didn't write, "So now Ennis assumed it had been the tire iron", or "So now Ennis interpreted it had been the tire iron", she writes, "So now he knew it had been the tire iron." Most writers choose their wording very carefully and A.P. seems to have made it clear.
I also read an interview and have seen on several news reports about the movie and short story that she wanted to write about homophobia. A.P. also made the statement in an interview that "... Wyoming is a homophobic place...", a statement which has generated some response on it's own. Aside from that I don't think she's making any overt statements at all. The potency of her writing lies in implication -- what the characters leave unsaid, so she doesn't tend to make any direct statements anyway.
I know the short story was written before Matthew Shepherd, it never occurred to me that some might think there is some connection -- I'm not quite sure where you're coming from with that statement in response to my post.
Thankx for this post...v.interesting points
x
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the book clearly states that right after Lureen tells Ennis,and his initial reaction was " 'No,' he thought, 'they got him with the tire iron'."
and a paragraph later it states:
"He didn't know which way it was, the tire iron or a real accident, blood choking down Jack's throuat and nobody to turn him over. Underthe wind drone he heard steel slammin off bone, the hollow chatter of a settling tire rim."
So he accepts the possibility of the accident and then changes his mind again---so it is up to the reader---because that is the concept that the book ends with to:
"There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it."
Ennis still doesn't know if it was an accident or a hate crime, and he never will, and neither will we. And in essence to the story it doesn't matter.
Annie P has some interesting stories about man's inhumanity to man, and not dealing with gay aspects either---she has some just as dark, tragic stuff about different walks of life, and different type people in the rest of the stories in Close RAnge.
'
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Ennis still doesn't know if it was an accident or a hate crime, and he never will, and neither will we. And in essence to the story it doesn't matter.
Annie P has some interesting stories about man's inhumanity to man, and not dealing with gay aspects either---she has some just as dark, tragic stuff about different walks of life, and different type people in the rest of the stories in Close RAnge.
"Inhumanity"... now that is a really interesting word, isn't it?
I get the feeling that it is the rigidity of our fears and intolerances that create this inhumanity... Brokeback Mountain shows it plainly. So if we were to ask who or what in the story would have that much fear and intolerance of Jack, that they would kill him... I think we have an answer. Annie Proulx' short story is more ambiguous than the movie... but I think the movie definitely has a suggestion.
Peace,
Frank
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"Inhumanity"... now that is a really interesting word, isn't it?
I get the feeling that it is the rigidity of our fears and intolerances that create this inhumanity... Brokeback Mountain shows it plainly. So if we were to ask who or what in the story would have that much fear and intolerance of Jack, that they would kill him... I think we have an answer. Annie Proulx' short story is more ambiguous than the movie... but I think the movie definitely has a suggestion.
Peace,
Frank
Thanks you, Frank!
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Jack? taking orders? At the end of the credits, they mention a killer mechainc, a grease monkey and an assailant. The picture I saw shows the mechanic and the grease monkey.
??? Go figure!
We might go to annieproulx.com and ask them
Was the cut scene in the screenplay too? I noticed the trailer had a few guys that wasn't featured in the show... Damn it, I don't want to pause the movie to see Jack getting beaten up and ruin my dream about Jack and Ennis staying together. :(
My educated guess was it that Jack flirted with one of them, they played tricks on him, confirmed their suspicions and ambused him. But it could also be Lureen behind the job... Eeeks!
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I do not think Lureen was involved, but I think she knew it was a hate crime. In the flash back Jack is murdered between a fence and a railroad track..not the side of the road as Lureen tells us. I think she was covering-worried what the revelation of having a "gay" husband would do to her Kappa Phi image in the community.
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Hi everybody,
just saw the film for the third time. It was even more devastating than the first two :'(
It seems to me that part of the sadness is that Jack tries to come to terms with wanting sex with other guys (even though there is only ONE Enis Del Mar). He's being honest with himself, so he goes to Mexico. And he probably has a relationship with the Texas guy he mentions to his parents. But being honest, he has to pay the price: death.
I think Jack was murdered. By whom is almost irrelevant. The point is that it fits with other aspects of Jack's life: he wanted a good marriage but he was denigrated by his wife's crowd. He wanted to move in with Ennis and spend more time with him, but Ennis wouldn't. He wanted to fix up his parents' ranch, but never did it. He wanted more sex, and was killed. He wanted to have his ashes on BBMountain but "society" conspired not to let that happen. Murder fits a pattern.
Stephan
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I read the story, and deeply thought about many clues in the movie.
1. When Ennis visited Jack's parents, the dad said that although Jack had often spoke of bringing Ennis up to the ranch, he had most recently disclosed that he had a new "friend", a neighbor rancher, that he would be bringing up to the ranch to live. The father also said that Jack had decided to leave his wife.
2. There was a scene where Jack was talking to a neighbor rancher, who asked him to go to a cabin for a weekend, alone, a clear reference that the two of them would have private time to be intimate.
3. I think Jack started a relationship with another rancher, and told his wife he was leaving her, for a man.
4. I think the wife's father, big dady-in-law, was full of rage, he always despised Jack. I think the father-in-law arranged for Jack to be murdered.
5. I think Jack's wife knew what her daddy arranged for her. Her daddy was not going to let his princess be the laughing stock of the county, so he had Jack bumped off. That is why she pretended not to know who Ennis was when he called. This was all a calculated diminuation of who Jack had been. She was already cut off, as Jack had long since turned to regular sex with other men, out side of Ennis.
So yes, Jack was murdered by thugs hired by his Father-in-law.
But according to the book, Lurleens father was already dead at this point, she had inherited the business..
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Don't forget the awful murder scene Ennis was forced to witness as a child. That clearly would have colored his perception of what he "knew." Also don't forget his dreams that shift between grief and joy, between the tire iron spoon handle and Jack. The implication of what happened to Jack is there, but do we really "know?" Does Ennis really "know?"
And yes, I believe the movie is about homophobia--Ennis' as well as that of society at large--but about other issues as well.
camom
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Don't forget the awful murder scene Ennis was forced to witness as a child. That clearly would have colored his perception of what he "knew." Also don't forget his dreams that shift between grief and joy, between the tire iron spoon handle and Jack. The implication of what happened to Jack is there, but do we really "know?" Does Ennis really "know?"
And yes, I believe the movie is about homophobia--Ennis' as well as that of society at large--but about other issues as well.
camom
Really good points, camom. I do think the murder scene reflects Ennis's thinking, and he was definitely influenced by what he saw as a child. I'm not a good mechanic by any means, but Lureen's explanation sounds surreal, Ennis guesses she's hiding the truth.
Another ingenious aspect of this film is that it is also about homophobia, without being about homosexuality - because it's about love :)
Stephan
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Don't forget the awful murder scene Ennis was forced to witness as a child. That clearly would have colored his perception of what he "knew." Also don't forget his dreams that shift between grief and joy, between the tire iron spoon handle and Jack. The implication of what happened to Jack is there, but do we really "know?" Does Ennis really "know?"
And yes, I believe the movie is about homophobia--Ennis' as well as that of society at large--but about other issues as well.
camom
Really good points, camom. I do think the murder scene reflects Ennis's thinking, and he was definitely influenced by what he saw as a child. I'm not a good mechanic by any means, but Lureen's explanation sounds surreal, Ennis guesses she's hiding the truth.
Another ingenious aspect of this film is that it is also about homophobia, without being about homosexuality - because it's about love :)
Stephan
Camom, Stephan, you are just great!
I agree with you guys, one thousand percent!
Hugs! :-*
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Don't forget the awful murder scene Ennis was forced to witness as a child. That clearly would have colored his perception of what he "knew." Also don't forget his dreams that shift between grief and joy, between the tire iron spoon handle and Jack. The implication of what happened to Jack is there, but do we really "know?" Does Ennis really "know?"
And yes, I believe the movie is about homophobia--Ennis' as well as that of society at large--but about other issues as well.
camom
Really good points, camom. I do think the murder scene reflects Ennis's thinking, and he was definitely influenced by what he saw as a child. I'm not a good mechanic by any means, but Lureen's explanation sounds surreal, Ennis guesses she's hiding the truth.
Another ingenious aspect of this film is that it is also about homophobia, without being about homosexuality - because it's about love :)
Stephan
I read somewhere (I think on the annieproulx.com forum), that the particular accident described in the short story and movie was actually possible with certain models of trucks. I don't remember specifics, but someone who had owned one of those trucks said that it could and did happen. So once again, we are left to speculate about what we know, and what we believe.
One of the truly haunting and compelling things about BBM is that there are so many ambiguities and unanswered questions. I don't think even AP knows all the answers. We're meant to be left with dreams of the spoon handle that becomes a tire iron.
camom
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camom: I remember Ang Lee in an interview with Charlie Rose said that Jack was murdered in the book but he wanted to keep the "murder" ambiguous... He didn't say why but I think partly because he doesn't want to shock the audience too much into turning them off.
Well, except Passions of the Christ... Despite its violent graphic depictions, it didn't turn a lot of Christians off though...
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camom: I remember Ang Lee in an interview with Charlie Rose said that Jack was murdered in the book but he wanted to keep the "murder" ambiguous... He didn't say why but I think partly because he doesn't want to shock the audience too much into turning them off.
Well, except Passions of the Christ... Despite its violent graphic depictions, it didn't turn a lot of Christians off though...
.. and not to mention, "Brokeback Mountain" is already loaded with christian imagery and symbolism... I think Ang Lee probably wanted the ambiguity, because there is a faint connection between Jack Twist and a certain christian human image of love, sacrifice and redemption.
Peace,
Frank
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Hi Frank,
Thanks for replying. That's the beauty of the film and at the same time it touched a raw nerve amongst certain audience.
So far the "Concerned Women of America" blasted the film for being anti-family.
But what is their definition of a family? Would two gay dads and their kids count?
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Hi Frank,
Thanks for replying. That's the beauty of the film and at the same time it touched a raw nerve amongst certain audience.
So far the "Concerned Women of America" blasted the film for being anti-family.
But what is their definition of a family? Would two gay dads and their kids count?
Exactly... I still get quite depressed realizing that they are many mis-guiding and mis-guided people out there that choose to idolize out-dated notions without properly understanding how harmful these notions are to all when applied incorrectly.
Peace,
Frank
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Frank: Believe it or not, there are real life Ennis and Jacks around in the US. The worst part is that if one of them is a foreigner.
I am helping out in Immigration Task Force in Australia and I encounter quite a number of "Bush refugees" when a gay US citizen falls in love with a same-sex foreigner with no prospects of staying legally simply because "marriage" is not legally recognized federally. In order to pursue a future, they had to pack up and leave, often in countries where the legislation is gay-friendly.
Even though Australia does not recognise same-sex marriage, if one of the sponsor is an Australian resident, the sponsor can bring his or her de-facto spouse over and legally grant the spouse a residency to stay together, provided that conditions are met. Most would prefer skilled migration - its easier and faster.
I feel sad when people's hard-line stance hurts other people. Of course they have never experience a real gay couple with different circumstances but once they are able to see from their point of perspective and in their shoes, just like the movie Brokeback, it will break their hearts. :'(
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camom: I remember Ang Lee in an interview with Charlie Rose said that Jack was murdered in the book but he wanted to keep the "murder" ambiguous... He didn't say why but I think partly because he doesn't want to shock the audience too much into turning them off.
Well, except Passions of the Christ... Despite its violent graphic depictions, it didn't turn a lot of Christians off though...
Ah, yes, Passions. Well, that's different, you see, because seeing the suffering of Christ is both a joy and atonement for Christians--that is, they see and appreciate his sacrifice all the more. That's a very basic tenent for conservative Christians. It's all about Christ Died for Your Sins. My personal approach is to study and attempt to emulate how He lived--his compassion and love for all--and therefore we are to be soldiers for social justice. There are churches out there that follow this concept, but sadly, not enough of them. I am proud to belong to the one church in our area that is loosely known as the "church that's lost its way and we must pray for them," lol. No one's gonna tell US what to think!
I know many, many conservative Christians. I won't even approach the BBM subject with them; I'm afraid I'll completely blow my cork. So I support the movie and AP with my dollars (very, very important statement to society!) and talk it up to the people I know who have open minds.
Hmmmm...the subject of this post was supposed to be what Ang Lee said about murder...got a little off topic. The story implies it was murder, but it never really comes right out and says it. I really do think we're supposed to be left with an uneasy feeling of "what was it, really?" All it says is that Ennis knows it was the tire iron--but our boy is pretty confused about a lot of things, isn't he? I don't think what Ennis knows is a statement of fact. Does anyone know what AP says about it? Has she ever come right out and said it was murder? Whether it was or wasn't, whether we're supposed to know or not, I don't think it diminishes the message one bit.
camom
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... that it was likely that Jack was killed with the tire iron and not the story about the blown tire.
Wait... maybe dumb question...but when they say he was killed fixing a flat, how exactly is that possible? Would an explosion be so forceful that it would blow the nut lugs off? If he was blowing up a flat on a road where no one was around to to help him out, where did he get the air to blow up the tire that caused the explosion? Most people don't take off a tire unless they have a spare.. wouldn't you think with all his money and newer truck would come with a spare tire? From the book :...Jack was pumping up a flat on the truck out on a back road when the tire blew up. The bead was damaged somehow and the force of the explosion slammed the rim into his face.."
Did he have a hand pump? Who blows up a tire off the axle?
Lureen's response is suspect...
Someone help me out here...
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... that it was likely that Jack was killed with the tire iron and not the story about the blown tire.
Wait... maybe dumb question...but when they say he was killed fixing a flat, how exactly is that possible? Would an explosion be so forceful that it would blow the nut lugs off? If he was blowing up a flat on a road where no one was around to to help him out, where did he get the air to blow up the tire that caused the explosion? Most people don't take off a tire unless they have a spare.. wouldn't you think with all his money and newer truck would come with a spare tire? From the book :...Jack was pumping up a flat on the truck out on a back road when the tire blew up. The bead was damaged somehow and the force of the explosion slammed the rim into his face.."
Did he have a hand pump? Who blows up a tire off the axle?
Lureen's response is suspect...
Someone help me out here...
I think what we end up with is that the whole blown tire story is so contrived and unlikely, you know it didn't happen. Jack was murdered.
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... that it was likely that Jack was killed with the tire iron and not the story about the blown tire.
Wait... maybe dumb question...but when they say he was killed fixing a flat, how exactly is that possible? Would an explosion be so forceful that it would blow the nut lugs off? If he was blowing up a flat on a road where no one was around to to help him out, where did he get the air to blow up the tire that caused the explosion? Most people don't take off a tire unless they have a spare.. wouldn't you think with all his money and newer truck would come with a spare tire? From the book :...Jack was pumping up a flat on the truck out on a back road when the tire blew up. The bead was damaged somehow and the force of the explosion slammed the rim into his face.."
Did he have a hand pump? Who blows up a tire off the axle?
Lureen's response is suspect...
Someone help me out here...
I think what we end up with is that the whole blown tire story is so contrived and unlikely, you know it didn't happen. Jack was murdered.
JerBear - I thought too that her answer was to contrived and "convenient" to explain Jack's death so she wouldn't have to tell the truth. Somewhere deep down, she couldn't reconcile that either.
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... that it was likely that Jack was killed with the tire iron and not the story about the blown tire.
Wait... maybe dumb question...but when they say he was killed fixing a flat, how exactly is that possible? Would an explosion be so forceful that it would blow the nut lugs off? If he was blowing up a flat on a road where no one was around to to help him out, where did he get the air to blow up the tire that caused the explosion? Most people don't take off a tire unless they have a spare.. wouldn't you think with all his money and newer truck would come with a spare tire? From the book :...Jack was pumping up a flat on the truck out on a back road when the tire blew up. The bead was damaged somehow and the force of the explosion slammed the rim into his face.."
Did he have a hand pump? Who blows up a tire off the axle?
Lureen's response is suspect...
Someone help me out here...
I think what we end up with is that the whole blown tire story is so contrived and unlikely, you know it didn't happen. Jack was murdered.
JerBear - I thought too that her answer was to contrived and "convenient" to explain Jack's death so she wouldn't have to tell the truth. Somewhere deep down, she couldn't reconcile that either.
On the other hand, what an odd accident to contrive. Not out of the realm of possibility (boy, did AP do her research!), but not an everyday accident, either. Why didn't she just say he drove his truck into a ditch?
camom
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On the other hand, what an odd accident to contrive. Not out of the realm of possibility (boy, did AP do her research!), but not an everyday accident, either. Why didn't she just say he drove his truck into a ditch?
camom
too easy..AP wanted her readers to react...to ask themselves questions...Plus come on, our Jack could not have died in a car accident...it would have been so unfair (hope you understand what I mean)
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Im not going to read other peoples answers, he was killed like it showed, I can't believe otherwise or else the film for me would be ruined because that was one of the most emotional moments for me,
so YES he was killed
*plugs ears to any who disgree* LA LA LA LA LA
haha!! LOL!!
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Im not going to read other peoples answers, he was killed like it showed, I can't believe otherwise or else the film for me would be ruined because that was one of the most emotional moments for me,
I must confess, on my third viewwing I closed my eyes. Couldn't stand it.
On the fourth I was able to go trough it but the audience was so crappy, I was not as much concentrated as the previous times.
Annie is vague about this...
Ang Lee sticked to Anne, I'm glad he did.
I guess Ennis is convinced Jack was killed.
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were they the murders? I saw two red-neck guys in a garage, it's not shown on the film but in the trailer.
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were they the murders? I saw two red-neck guys in a garage, it's not shown on the film but in the trailer.
The kind of flashbak Ennis has, when he thinks about Jack's death shows at least 5 men! We will have to wait for the DVD!
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... that it was likely that Jack was killed with the tire iron and not the story about the blown tire.
Wait... maybe dumb question...but when they say he was killed fixing a flat, how exactly is that possible? Would an explosion be so forceful that it would blow the nut lugs off? If he was blowing up a flat on a road where no one was around to to help him out, where did he get the air to blow up the tire that caused the explosion? Most people don't take off a tire unless they have a spare.. wouldn't you think with all his money and newer truck would come with a spare tire? From the book :...Jack was pumping up a flat on the truck out on a back road when the tire blew up. The bead was damaged somehow and the force of the explosion slammed the rim into his face.."
Did he have a hand pump? Who blows up a tire off the axle?
Lureen's response is suspect...
Someone help me out here...
I think what we end up with is that the whole blown tire story is so contrived and unlikely, you know it didn't happen. Jack was murdered.
JerBear - I thought too that her answer was to contrived and "convenient" to explain Jack's death so she wouldn't have to tell the truth. Somewhere deep down, she couldn't reconcile that either.
Plus, Annie tells us that the story is about destructive rural homophobia - Jack's being murdered is more consistent with that theme.
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Plus, Annie tells us that the story is about destructive rural homophobia - Jack's being murdered is more consistent with that theme.
Sadly true!
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Plus, Annie tells us that the story is about destructive rural homophobia - Jack's being murdered is more consistent with that theme.
Even though the story is set in remote country towns, I hope everybody knows that homophobia exists even in the big cities. There are times when I have been called out, "Phucking Asian Faggot", "Chink/Gonk", even though I haven't experience any violence... The name callings do leave me a chilly sense of something bad is going to happen. :-\
But I guess there are idiots everywhere...
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Plus, Annie tells us that the story is about destructive rural homophobia - Jack's being murdered is more consistent with that theme.
Even though the story is set in remote country towns, I hope everybody knows that homophobia exists even in the big cities. There are times when I have been called out, "Phucking Asian Faggot", "Chink/Gonk", even though I haven't experience any violence... The name callings do leave me a chilly sense of something bad is going to happen. :-
But I guess there are idiots everywhere...
Same here in Gay friendly Montreal, was called "tapette" (fagot), just replied "so what?"
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On the other hand, what an odd accident to contrive. Not out of the realm of possibility (boy, did AP do her research!), but not an everyday accident, either. Why didn't she just say he drove his truck into a ditch?
camom
too easy..AP wanted her readers to react...to ask themselves questions...Plus come on, our Jack could not have died in a car accident...it would have been so unfair (hope you understand what I mean)
No, I didn't mean he actually died in a car accident, I meant why didn't Lureen say that he did, instead of that odd explanation of an accident that could have occurred, but was very bizarre? Tire rim accidents like that did happen, but very few of them. Why would she make up something like that? On the other hand, the way she explained it over the phone sounded like she was reading a teleprompter. But then, people who are grieving (and I think Lureen was grieving, for Jack, or her lost hopes. or something) act really strangely sometimes.
camom
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Plus, Annie tells us that the story is about destructive rural homophobia - Jack's being murdered is more consistent with that theme.
Howdy.
Agreed, JerBear, murder seems consistent with the theme on first glance.
But the movie/short story takes us much further than that... hence, the *purposeful* ambiguities that Annie Proulx and the screenplay writers (Diana Ossana and Larry McMurtry).
Remembering that this masterpiece of a movie/short story is a work of fiction we the audience can only speculate and form our own conclusions from the clues *purposefully* left in the plot line; however, as we have all seen... it still leaves lots of room as to *WHO* murdered Jack Twist.
As I have explained in an earlier post... we can, however, reach a more *serious* and more implicit conclusion to the following questions:
If Jack Twist was murdered, *WHY* did the killers kill him?
*WHAT* killed Jack Twist, the love of Ennis Del Mar's life?
*WHAT* mutilated the love between Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar?
No matter how we look at the death of Jack Twist and his relationship with Ennis Del Mar, we have known the answer all along. It is precisely why Annie Proulx wrote the short story in the first place. It is precisely why Diana Ossana and Larry McMurtry kept any explicit reasons ambiguous. It is why we the audience find this event so tragic: it is as a result of homophobia.
The short story leaves us with that compelling feeling that this is wrong.
Our response then should be *HOW* do we make this right?
... and when I think of our poor tragic Jack and Ennis, as fictional as they are... I can only cry, realizing how helpless I feel for them. If I can feel for these fictional characters, then I can feel for someone real, like Matthew Sheppard, a young gay man killed in Wyoming, just because he was gay. The only hope that we can garner from this is to try and somehow help our society and ourselves from letting this happen as best we can. Even if it means starting with just remembering.
Peace,
Frank
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I read the story, and deeply thought about many clues in the movie.
1. When Ennis visited Jack's parents, the dad said that although Jack had often spoke of bringing Ennis up to the ranch, he had most recently disclosed that he had a new "friend", a neighbor rancher, that he would be bringing up to the ranch to live. The father also said that Jack had decided to leave his wife.
2. There was a scene where Jack was talking to a neighbor rancher, who asked him to go to a cabin for a weekend, alone, a clear reference that the two of them would have private time to be intimate.
3. I think Jack started a relationship with another rancher, and told his wife he was leaving her, for a man.
4. I think the wife's father, big dady-in-law, was full of rage, he always despised Jack. I think the father-in-law arranged for Jack to be murdered.
5. I think Jack's wife knew what her daddy arranged for her. Her daddy was not going to let his princess be the laughing stock of the county, so he had Jack bumped off. That is why she pretended not to know who Ennis was when he called. This was all a calculated diminuation of who Jack had been. She was already cut off, as Jack had long since turned to regular sex with other men, out side of Ennis.
So yes, Jack was murdered by thugs hired by his Father-in-law.
Hi Lamar, the more I think about it and also after reading your analysis, I am convinced that Jack was killed as the quick flash in the movie suggested. Thanks for your detailed insights.
Though they didn't follow the book exactly, in the book Lurleens father was already dead at this point, so couldn't have had Jack killed.
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If Jack Twist was murdered, *WHY* did the killers kill him?
*WHAT* killed Jack Twist, the love of Ennis Del Mar's life?
*WHAT* mutilated the love between Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar?
On the same note, why did high-school dropout (who later died in injuries), shoot so many people, especially people inside a gay bar?
I always have the view that you cannot combat irrationality with rationality. I agree that there is order in chaos but somehow its always the exception rather than the norm.
If you believe that homophobic is rational, maybe we can solve the problems. In my view however, homophobic is irrational derived from irrational sources like the Bible (Is anything rational about faith?), society perception of being a man and so on.
That's why Ennis said, "If you can't fix it, you got to stand it." He quickly knew that there is no easy answers for this one. To publicly declare their love in which their love maybe rational, but people will see two men in love is a taboo. Ennis is well aware of the consequences for this one.
I have learnt over time that people's perceptions is hard to change. Unless there is an army of like-minded people to challenge the status quo, that poster-boy is going to pushed into the slaughter house.
Well, what's my point? Maybe I am adding a sideview of the situation. I would like to think that Jack was killed because of "homophobia" but what triggered the killing maybe doesn't make sense anymore. One life is taken away because of hate. That's one of the consequences of irrationality.
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If Jack Twist was murdered, *WHY* did the killers kill him?
*WHAT* killed Jack Twist, the love of Ennis Del Mar's life?
*WHAT* mutilated the love between Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar?
On the same note, why did high-school dropout (who later died in injuries), shoot so many people, especially people inside a gay bar?
I always have the view that you cannot combat irrationality with rationality. I agree that there is order in chaos but somehow its always the exception rather than the norm.
If you believe that homophobic is rational, maybe we can solve the problems. In my view however, homophobic is irrational derived from irrational sources like the Bible (Is anything rational about faith?), society perception of being a man and so on.
That's why Ennis said, "If you can't fix it, you got to stand it." He quickly knew that there is no easy answers for this one. To publicly declare their love in which their love maybe rational, but people will see two men in love is a taboo. Ennis is well aware of the consequences for this one.
I have learnt over time that people's perceptions is hard to change. Unless there is an army of like-minded people to challenge the status quo, that poster-boy is going to pushed into the slaughter house.
Well, what's my point? Maybe I am adding a sideview of the situation. I would like to think that Jack was killed because of "homophobia" but what triggered the killing maybe doesn't make sense anymore. One life is taken away because of hate. That's one of the consequences of irrationality.
No, your quote is not a side view... remember even just remembering is just a good start. As irrational as the "sources" of these "forces of nature" are, I do not disagree with your assessments... maybe the problem *IS NOT* indeed rational... so what if we were to "stand it" then it can only mean things like to "forgive" and to contirbute to being a part of the solution rather than being a part of the problem; however, the story does offer its own "suggestions": it has set self-determination against such forces... so in a way, it does ask us to allow each and every one of us "leeway" to determine for ourselves our place in the scheme of things... as irrational as that may be.
As for your opinion, that we cannot combat irrationality with rational means... well, that does depend on whether you consider the complexity of human emotions as irrational. Remember we have an emotion as a signal to some event so what I believe you consider "irrational" is in fact a high degree of complexity in a cause-and-effect series of events, alebeit, human events. The problem lies in the fact that we as human beings see ourselves as separate from one another and, hence, we claim that we do not know what the other is feeling, however, with empathy, patience, listening, honesty... things that Jack and Ennis shared with each other... we can experience the glue that binds all of us: love.
Peace,
Frank (aka Jack Nasty)
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I don't think even Annie Proulx knows how Jack died. I've read somewhere (can't find it now) that she intended to be vague so that the reader had to decide for themselves. Unfortunately, due to the volume of interest and her current work, annieproulx.com isn't responding to questions. It's a mystery and it disturbs us, and so it should. Titus.
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we claim that we do not know what the other is feeling, however, with empathy, patience, listening, honesty... things that Jack and Ennis shared with each other... we can experience the glue that binds all of us: love.
Thanks Frank for being so articulate. Would you believe that human events are irrational as well?
Despite what Jack has done over 20 years, hoping and waiting, he still couldn't get Ennis over to his side. That's what I find perplexing about the two of them.
Perhaps the attributes you have suggested: empathy, patience, listening, honesty, might indeed encourage the person to think rationally. What I understand is not everybody functions and see logic the same way.
That's what I said to my partner:
Most could see and ONLY stop at 1, some can see 2, some think that 3 is crazy, and 4 is definitely falling off the cliff.
One doesn't need to be highly educated or highly IQed to fulfil that statement.
However I guess that's the beauty of irrationality, it allows us to be humans using emotions to guide us in terms of affection, love, compassion. At the same time, it can also be destructive when rage, anger and fear kicks in.
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I don't think even Annie Proulx knows how Jack died. I've read somewhere (can't find it now) that she intended to be vague so that the reader had to decide for themselves. Unfortunately, due to the volume of interest and her current work, annieproulx.com isn't responding to questions. It's a mystery and it disturbs us, and so it should. Titus.
I agree with you; I really don't think she knows. All the unanswered questions makes the story that much more powerful, IMO.
camom
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Camom - I agree with you that's what makes the story powerful is the open ended questions that prompt us to think, explore, destruct, construct, create, define, etc. I hope this story becomes mandatory reading in high schools across America.
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Camom - I agree with you that's what makes the story powerful is the open ended questions that prompt us to think, explore, destruct, construct, create, define, etc. I hope this story becomes mandatory reading in high schools across America.
And that came from a teacher.. Am I wrong Cody?
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Thanks Frank for being so articulate. Would you believe that human events are irrational as well?
Despite what Jack has done over 20 years, hoping and waiting, he still couldn't get Ennis over to his side. That's what I find perplexing about the two of them.
Perhaps the attributes you have suggested: empathy, patience, listening, honesty, might indeed encourage the person to think rationally. What I understand is not everybody functions and see logic the same way.
That's what I said to my partner:
Most could see and ONLY stop at 1, some can see 2, some think that 3 is crazy, and 4 is definitely falling off the cliff.
One doesn't need to be highly educated or highly IQed to fulfil that statement.
However I guess that's the beauty of irrationality, it allows us to be humans using emotions to guide us in terms of affection, love, compassion. At the same time, it can also be destructive when rage, anger and fear kicks in.
In a way, you just answered your own questions... you yourself have just divvied up emotions into two camps: ones that binds us and ones that tear us apart. As you said, it does not take a genius to figure something like that out... so it is a universal truth for us. Secondly, your reference again to irrationality... again, I invite you to re-examine the meaning of irrationality and rationality... it is not quite the same as the sense of "logic" versus "emotion". I would prefer to use simpler terms like "direct" and "indirect". So when I see you say "irrationality", I understand that you mean highly indirect and complicated... hence, you cannot make heads or tails out of it; but I am unclear as to whether this is precisely what you mean in the way you use the word "irrationality".
Peace,
Frank
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Frank: You caught me spot on.
One example of "irrationality" in my sense would be something like Ennis refusing to acknowledge his love for Jack time and time again. We know his fears, maybe in his time. In our era it seems odd that when love presents to Ennis over 20 years, he doesn't have the courage to say it until it was too late. To me, it may seem that Ennis is just being irrational, especially the part when Ennis shrugged Jack away when the two girls are around. Then he brings about a lot of excuses to shrug him away. Why could Ennis bring Jack around, sit around and chat and so on? If I am Jack, I would certainly couldn't understand what's going on and I suspect he did, except that he knew that "it wasn't time".
Would you think its the wrong interpretation or I should simplify this further?
I hope the readers hasn't been bored by all these. This is how I see Brokeback on a deeper level. Maybe I was trying to find a solution for Ennis to accept Jack but the way he was brought up, that really seem impossible and hence my statement:
You cannot combat irrationality with rationality. So my next question would be, should Jack be better off moving on?
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One example of "irrationality" in my sense would be something like Ennis refusing to acknowledge his love for Jack time and time again. We know his fears, maybe in his time. In our era it seems odd that when love presents to Ennis over 20 years, he doesn't have the courage to say it until it was too late. To me, it may seem that Ennis is just being irrational, especially the part when Ennis shrugged Jack away when the two girls are around. Then he brings about a lot of excuses to shrug him away. Why could Ennis bring Jack around, sit around and chat and so on? If I am Jack, I would certainly couldn't understand what's going on and I suspect he did, except that he knew that "it wasn't time".
Would you think its the wrong interpretation or I should simplify this further?
I hope the readers hasn't been bored by all these. This is how I see Brokeback on a deeper level. Maybe I was trying to find a solution for Ennis to accept Jack but the way he was brought up, that really seem impossible and hence my statement:
You cannot combat irrationality with rationality. So my next question would be, should Jack be better off moving on?
Interesting... I just want to clarify first before I give my opinion.
Again, you have shown that you know why Ennis does not bring Jack around or closer to sit around and chat... in particular, when Jack visited breathlessly after Ennis' divorce. Ennis was afraid that his girls would find out that their daddy was gay. That was a label Ennis did not want to live with, because he has seen the grisly death of a gay rancher from childhood days. He did not want to terrify his girls. He did not want to die. He was afraid. The question we have to ask is "Is this irrational?". In my book, it is not. Ennis has a right to his emotions, his protectiveness of his girls and his self-preservation. The next question is "Is he irrational in shrugging Jack away?"... well, given that he was afraid, again, in my book, it is a rational way of handling the situation although it was at the cost of sending his true love away. In this case, it was a sacrifice... an uneasy compromise knowing that he can still get to see Jack now and then as well as to keep his illusion of the supportive father.
Now, if I have understood you correctly... you are saying instead of applying rationality... what if Ennis re-acted "irrationally", that is... what if Ennis hugged and kissed Jack right in front of the girls and told them that Jack has been his true love for all these years? The problem I have here is two-fold: first, is this really all that "irrational" and second, is this really going to solve Ennis' dilemma? Let us say that Ennis did just that... then we can say that Ennis did it because he wanted Jack to be finally in his life and to share the fallout of his love with the girls. In my book, I have to say he has a valid reason for doing that... he loves Jack. It is rational. The problem that we are seeing is that there are many ways for someone to act... many choices regardless of whether the choices are rational or irrational. Ennis was a very stoic, hard-working and conscientious man... his decision making reflect that culture. His actions reflect the homophobic fears that he has been raised with... and, hence, he is acting rationally given the circumstances. He is rational. Perhaps we can say that his father's fears/hate of the gay rancher was irrational and placed that homophobia in Ennis... but I suspect you can keep following a line of reasoning to see that fear/hate has a rational thread. The problem is we do not know enough. Second, if Ennis did behave irrationally would it solve his dilemma... again, it really depends on many other things... for all we can guess, it may raise even more problems than it solve.
I have to cut this short... but I hope you get my drift...
Peace,
Frank
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Frank: I see your POV. I come from a different generation where the gay rights have been fought for vigorously and has achieved a certain status in terms of legislation. Thus for the younger folks unfamiliar with that turbulent past would definitely find it difficult to understand the constant "throw back and forth with Jack"... I suspect AP in wanting to connect with the younger audience, she made Jack as the free-minded spirit - "I want to achieve my goals and dreams" in contrast with Ennis' "society has expectations of me as a form of self-sacrifice". Ennis being the third kid probably doesn't help change his mindset too.
Following your line of reasoning, the scene that was so odd was the blatant kiss initiated by Ennis on the staircase. I mean what was Ennis thinking? If you have constituted that as one-time irrational thingy, I guess the writings on the wall - If you can't fix it, you've got to stand it.
However I am getting where you are suggesting - the circumstances and life education that would form the rules of one's decision-making.
Suppose if Ennis and Jack were to break society rules and own a nice cow and calf ranch together, I know its a risk both would have to take but would you think its worth it?
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Following your line of reasoning, the scene that was so odd was the blatant kiss initiated by Ennis on the staircase. I mean what was Ennis thinking? If you have constituted that as one-time irrational thingy, I guess the writings on the wall - If you can't fix it, you've got to stand it.
Ennis was drinking a bit and he really, really was excited at seeing a lover that he has not seen for 4 years!!! Sometimes being a human being means that we follow our heart and not our head... so Ennis decided to follow his heart in that instant... I think given the circumstances... it was the most human thing that he had allowed himself to do, but at a huge cost to his marriage with Alma. In fact, it was that cost that probably added to his guilt of loving Jack; hence, giving Ennis more reasons to keep Jack at a distance. Tragic, yes... but understandable.
However I am getting where you are suggesting - the circumstances and life education that would form the rules of one's decision-making.
Suppose if Ennis and Jack were to break society rules and own a nice cow and calf ranch together, I know its a risk both would have to take but would you think its worth it?
... and that is both Ennis' and Jack's decision to make: "do we risk everything else for our lives together"? Jack was ready, but Ennis was not... and we cannot assign blame to either of their reasoning, because it simply reflect the time and place that they lived in... and it is in this helplessness that we the audience feel towards Jack's and Ennis' situation that makes the story just that much more powerful. Tragedy found in the effects of rural homophobia on the lives of those who live within its grip... it is not meant to be a happy situation, because homophobia is destructive and our poor Jack and Ennis could not fix it so they were ruthlessly forced to stand it.
Peace,
Frank
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I see this from the published 1997 Dead Line, Ltd edition of the story that Jack was not dead at all.
The old man spoke angrily. "I can't get no help out here. Jack used a say, 'Ennis del Mar,' he used a say, 'I'm goin a bring him up here one a these days and we'll lick this damn ranch into shape.' He had some half-baked idea the two a you was goin a move up here, build a log cabin and help me run this ranch and bring it up. Then, this spring he's got another one's goin a come up here with him and build a place and help run the ranch, some ranch neighbor a his from down in Texas. He's goin a split up with his wife and come back here. So he says. But like most a Jack's ideas it never come to pass."
Where I come from in the NE corner of the Great Southwestern United States, NE Oklahoma to be exact, when one is talking in the fall or winter months and he says "this spring," his not talking about the past spring but the one which is coming.
It was apparently in middle or late October 1983 when Ennis arrived at the John C. Twist place near Lightning Flat; but, Ennis had been with Jack in the middle of Spring, May to be exact in 1983.
So, I say that Jack still has plans of going back to the homeplace. We might not even know whether Jack's folks knew that Ennis was sexually attracted to Jack or the opposite.
We also have to note that Jack's mother just ignored everything that her husband said, too.
I say that Jack did not die at all. Ennis Del Mar saw no proof whatsoever of Jack being dead. He only believed what he heard. He did not see a tombstone in Childress, Texas and he did not see the remainder of "Jack's ashes" in Lightning Flat, either.
Mr. Twist's reason for not letting go of Jack's ashes was that they did not exist in the first place.
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Camom - I agree with you that's what makes the story powerful is the open ended questions that prompt us to think, explore, destruct, construct, create, define, etc. I hope this story becomes mandatory reading in high schools across America.
Upper level high school, anyway. I can tell you that my 14 year old son is not ready for it yet, and he's a very bright, mature kid. Heck, I'm 47 and I can hardly deal with it.
camom
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When we're talking about whether Ennis' fears are rational or irrational, we also have to remember that we're only shown a tiny snippet of his childhood in the film. We see the horrific murder scene, but what we don't see is the years and years of homophobic talk from adults--his father and others in the town. Remember Ennis says the two old ranchers were the joke of the town, plus he says for all he knows his dad committed the murder. Obviously his dad has made it clear that he is homophobic. A childhood filled with murderous and/or deprecating comments about homosexuality--I don't think Ennis' fear is irrational at all, not in his culture.
camom
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Camom, yeah, I agree. As a teacher, I think this is a Sr. level book. Takes some maturity to handle the nuances and in depth questioning it generates. You are right about Ennis, you know his background has to be years of male macho attitudes of what a male should be, not what's good for his soul. In Ennis'world you know those homophobic attitudes over the years become ingrained, and hard to shake.
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Camom, yeah, I agree. As a teacher, I think this is a Sr. level book. Takes some maturity to handle the nuances and in depth questioning it generates. You are right about Ennis, you know his background has to be years of male macho attitudes of what a male should be, not what's good for his soul. In Ennis'world you know those homophobic attitudes over the years become ingrained, and hard to shake.
I think it would be an excellent section in an honors English class, or a sociology class. I might use it myself in a few years (he's homeschooling now--8th grade--and wants to continue for high school). "From Beowulf to Brokeback!" ;D
Ennis is such a simple man, and so complex at the same time. You do have to wonder if he would've been able to let go of his upbringing if BBM had happened 30 years later. I'm not so sure.
camom
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Camom, yeah, I agree. As a teacher, I think this is a Sr. level book. Takes some maturity to handle the nuances and in depth questioning it generates. You are right about Ennis, you know his background has to be years of male macho attitudes of what a male should be, not what's good for his soul. In Ennis'world you know those homophobic attitudes over the years become ingrained, and hard to shake.
I think it would be an excellent section in an honors English class, or a sociology class. I might use it myself in a few years (he's homeschooling now--8th grade--and wants to continue for high school). "From Beowulf to Brokeback!" ;D
Ennis is such a simple man, and so complex at the same time. You do have to wonder if he would've been able to let go of his upbringing if BBM had happened 30 years later. I'm not so sure.
camom
30 years later, still in Wyoming, I'm ain't sure. Even in my "supposed to be gay friendly country", there's a lot of homophobia. We have a new government here since yesterday. They're already questioning the "same sex wedding" law. Never take anything for granted.
I'll stop here, I would be too much off topic.
Love my friends!
Pierre
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Camom, yeah, I agree. As a teacher, I think this is a Sr. level book. Takes some maturity to handle the nuances and in depth questioning it generates. You are right about Ennis, you know his background has to be years of male macho attitudes of what a male should be, not what's good for his soul. In Ennis'world you know those homophobic attitudes over the years become ingrained, and hard to shake.
I think it would be an excellent section in an honors English class, or a sociology class. I might use it myself in a few years (he's homeschooling now--8th grade--and wants to continue for high school). "From Beowulf to Brokeback!" ;D
Ennis is such a simple man, and so complex at the same time. You do have to wonder if he would've been able to let go of his upbringing if BBM had happened 30 years later. I'm not so sure.
camom
I agree... there are many levels/layers to the short story and/or movie. At the risk of sounding too clinical, I think that an important consideration as to when to introduce the material is when puberty sets in. After all, that is a time when there *will* be questions that sometimes even the most liberally raised children may find difficult to bring up with parents or adults. Consider that in the story itself it shows Ennis and Jack as high school dropouts... what would have happened if they were given the benefit of some practical and non-discriminating sex education (I know in the 60s that was a taboo subject, esp in Wyoming). Hindsight is always 20/20 and even now we still have difficulty with the subject of sex, in all its varied forms... is this what we want our children to keep passing on?
Peace,
Frank (aka Jack Nasty)
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Camom, yeah, I agree. As a teacher, I think this is a Sr. level book. Takes some maturity to handle the nuances and in depth questioning it generates. You are right about Ennis, you know his background has to be years of male macho attitudes of what a male should be, not what's good for his soul. In Ennis'world you know those homophobic attitudes over the years become ingrained, and hard to shake.
I think it would be an excellent section in an honors English class, or a sociology class. I might use it myself in a few years (he's homeschooling now--8th grade--and wants to continue for high school). "From Beowulf to Brokeback!" ;D
Ennis is such a simple man, and so complex at the same time. You do have to wonder if he would've been able to let go of his upbringing if BBM had happened 30 years later. I'm not so sure.
camom
I agree... there are many levels/layers to the short story and/or movie. At the risk of sounding too clinical, I think that an important consideration as to when to introduce the material is when puberty sets in. After all, that is a time when there *will* be questions that sometimes even the most liberally raised children may find difficult to bring up with parents or adults. Consider that in the story itself it shows Ennis and Jack as high school dropouts... what would have happened if they were given the benefit of some practical and non-discriminating sex education (I know in the 60s that was a taboo subject, esp in Wyoming). Hindsight is always 20/20 and even now we still have difficulty with the subject of sex, in all its varied forms... is this what we want our children to keep passing on?
Peace,
Frank (aka Jack Nasty)
I agree that the general subject should be brought up in the teenage years, but I also agree with Cody that a story like BBM takes a certain amount of mental maturity that for most kids doesn't exist in early puberty. However, the issue of homophobia can be discussed at an earlier age, and I've been thinking it's something I need to do with my kids. My older son has asked me why we drive 20 mins. away to go to church when there's a church 2 mins. away, and I've explained that the closer church is too conservative--but what I need to do is tell him specifically that we will not attend any church that does not openly welcome all people, gay or straight, period. I'm not sure if he realizes that part of it, and I think it's important he understands that sometimes we just have to take a stand for what we believe is right or wrong.
And this post had nothing to do with Jack! :-\
camom
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Camom, yeah, I agree. As a teacher, I think this is a Sr. level book. Takes some maturity to handle the nuances and in depth questioning it generates. You are right about Ennis, you know his background has to be years of male macho attitudes of what a male should be, not what's good for his soul. In Ennis'world you know those homophobic attitudes over the years become ingrained, and hard to shake.
I don't think this book will even make it to any level simply because of its content. We even had trouble with biology textbook with the inclusion of intelligent design, this book will make Pat Robertson and his 700 club all rattled up.
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The more I read it, the more I feel it doesn't matter. He may well have been murdered, but just as easily could have died from an accident. It isn't really relvant to the story.
What is relvant is the fact that with Jack being gone---we are left with veiwing Ennis' complete sense of loss, and total devestation by it. It is really is about the Loss and the dealing with it that makes the strength of the depth of Ennis' feelings/reactions. Just my thoughts about it.
Yeah... You must be right. Devastation is the right word!
Merry
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[And this post had nothing to do with Jack! :-\
camom
Hmmm... well, considering that from a broad view, homophobia did kill Jack... perhaps, it is relevant that we talk about when BBM should be introduced in the schools... after all I don't want to see another Jack happen again. My heart cannot take too much of that.
Peace,
Frank (aka Jack Nasty)
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Camom, yeah, I agree. As a teacher, I think this is a Sr. level book. Takes some maturity to handle the nuances and in depth questioning it generates. You are right about Ennis, you know his background has to be years of male macho attitudes of what a male should be, not what's good for his soul. In Ennis'world you know those homophobic attitudes over the years become ingrained, and hard to shake.
I don't think this book will even make it to any level simply because of its content. We even had trouble with biology textbook with the inclusion of intelligent design, this book will make Pat Robertson and his 700 club all rattled up.
You're probably right there. Always a fight over something. Parents can always do what they think is right outside of school--and I homeschool, so no one can tell me what I can and can't teach (one reason I do it), lol.
camom
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camom - you are right of course. You get to teach your child what you want, props for taking that on. I can only imagine the uproar if the book were to be read. Still, I think they should learn about society. Btw..most of my kids are much more tolerant than the adults I've met. It's the adults (yuppies) who seem to think their way is the only way.
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camom - you are right of course. You get to teach your child what you want, props for taking that on. I can only imagine the uproar if the book were to be read. Still, I think they should learn about society. Btw..most of my kids are much more tolerant than the adults I've met. It's the adults (yuppies) who seem to think their way is the only way.
Don't get me stuck on that subject!
camom
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Huh... I thought the pink money is the way of the future too?? ???
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In the short story, there's a line near the end when Ennis is a Jack's house and Jack's dad is telling him that in recent times, he's talked about bring a new guy up to tend to the ranch and its basically "and now Ennis knew that it was the tire iron that had done him in[/u]"
It could be either though, and it doesn't really matter in the end... I think Ennis chose to reflect more on Jack's life with him than his death
This makes me nuts. what about Jack's fathers statement about the rancher convinces Ennis that it was the tire iron?
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Let me ask this again:
In the short story, there's a line near the end when Ennis is a Jack's house and Jack's dad is telling him thatJack talked about bringing a new guy up to tend the ranch and its
"and now Ennis knew that it was the tire iron that had done him in.
This makes me nuts. what is it about Jack's fathers statement about the rancher that convinces Ennis that it was the tire iron?
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Lacy Love, Ennis thought from the first that Jack had been beaten to death with a tire iron, just like the old man he saw as a child. Deep, deep impression that made. He knew too that Lureen wasn't totally straight with him, she seemed to be holding something back. If you were living in homophobic Texas or Wyoming or wherever back in the mid-Eighties, like Ennis, you could easily connect the dots in your own mind. A married man having an affair with a neighbour, who is also married, and he has made it known he wants to divorce his wife and take new man to meet Mama and Daddy, you bet it ain't gonna be pretty. Ennis just assumed that Lurren, who he thought was lying, must have known something about Jack's plans.
Whether Ennis was right or not we will never know. Annie Proulx doesn't even know. But that's what his gut reaction is. I mean the rim blowing off the truck may have happened once or twice, but what we have here is a man who sleeps with other men in a very violent, macho culture who put it about all during his rodeo days (witness the rodeo clown telling his mates the "faggot" has made a move on him! Childress is small, folks know everybody else. Two men getting it on, what's the chances no one suspected or saw something. Ennis isn't stupid. Hope that helps! Makes me sad that their story had to end that way, but there it is. Titus.
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Did you saw it was '' young '' Jack without a PORNSTACHE?(at the end of the movie he does have pornstache) I just realised that.. Maybe he is not dead after all(divorcing? ahh Lureen and Jack is married by the way?) BBM2? ahahh keep dreaming Krisp..
As much as I love BBM, no BBM2 please. :) It has all the possibilities ...since the audience did not really witness the crime scene if there has been one.
Funny enough, the thought that Jack didn't die came to my mind as well. One day...Jack might appear in front of Ennis's trailer and say to Ennis -- Ennis f***ing del Mar and then they live happily after. Just my wish. ;D
[/quot] i thoough of that too.
LISTEN TO THIS INTERVIEW
here is whole readio interview done recently with author annie proulx/talks about how the ending had to end.
http://www.kcrw.com/cgi-bin/db/kcrw.pl?show_code=bw&air_date=1/19/06&tmplt_type=show this is a great interview-the whole thing
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Lacy Love, Ennis thought from the first that Jack had been beaten to death with a tire iron, just like the old man he saw as a child. Deep, deep impression that made. He knew too that Lureen wasn't totally straight with him, she seemed to be holding something back. If you were living in homophobic Texas or Wyoming or wherever back in the mid-Eighties, like Ennis, you could easily connect the dots in your own mind. A married man having an affair with a neighbour, who is also married, and he has made it known he wants to divorce his wife and take new man to meet Mama and Daddy, you bet it ain't gonna be pretty. Ennis just assumed that Lurren, who he thought was lying, must have known something about Jack's plans.
Whether Ennis was right or not we will never know. Annie Proulx doesn't even know. But that's what his gut reaction is. I mean the rim blowing off the truck may have happened once or twice, but what we have here is a man who sleeps with other men in a very violent, macho culture who put it about all during his rodeo days (witness the rodeo clown telling his mates the "faggot" has made a move on him! Childress is small, folks know everybody else. Two men getting it on, what's the chances no one suspected or saw something. Ennis isn't stupid. Hope that helps! Makes me sad that their story had to end that way, but there it is. Titus.
For me, the ending is horrible either way--murder, or dying alone on a rural road because there was no one to help him. You see in the story that it's a terrible blow to Ennis, no matter how he pictures it ("He wanted to curse her for letting Jack die on the dirt road."). In context, murder is worse, of course, but the pictures in my mind of either scenario are equally upsetting. I'm sure the worst part for Ennis was that he wasn't there to help.
camom
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Oh, my gosh, this call makes me crazy. My best female friend just call me that she believe Jack was suicided. She said if she was in Jack's shoes, she will end her life to finish the endless pain and despair. And she asked me if you know there is one you love him so deadly and you tried everything you can do and Finlay realize you will never get him and you will never forget him...What would you do???I first replied that I will keep trying and waitting and suddenly I was speechless and did not know how to answer this question. She also said that Jack's suicide can explain why he wanted scatter his ashes in BBM; why his facial expression was so hopeless and despairing when he saw Ennis left in their last meet; why Lureen was in tear when she heard Jack and Ennis were once in the BBM; Why jack dreamed to have a good life with another guy whose personality somewhat likes Ennis; why he put their cloth together in his childhood closet. And she also mentioned that Ennis possibly knew that Jack was suicided because of him, so in the end he said to the cloth " Jack, I swear..."
Her call made me mad and lost, there is the possibility. NO. NO. NO.
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Oh, my gosh, this call makes me crazy. My best female friend just call me that she believe Jack was suicided. She said if she was in Jack's shoes, she will end her life to finish the endless pain and despair. And she asked me if you know there is one you love him so deadly and you tried everything you can do and Finlay realize you will never get him and you will never forget him...What would you do???I first replied that I will keep trying and waitting and suddenly I was speechless and did not know how to answer this question. She also said that Jack's suicide can explain why he wanted scatter his ashes in BBM; why his facial expression was so hopeless and despairing when he saw Ennis left in their last meet; why Lureen was in tear when she heard Jack and Ennis were once in the BBM; Why jack dreamed to have a good life with another guy whose personality somewhat likes Ennis; why he put their cloth together in his childhood closet. And she also mentioned that Ennis possibly knew that Jack was suicided because of him, so in the end he said to the cloth " Jack, I swear..."
Her call made me mad and lost, there is the possibility. NO. NO. NO.
Jack was too much of an optimist to commit suicide. I really don't think he would have done that.
camom
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I don't think that Jack is that depressed.
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well...maybe...but lureen did say he like to get drunk, in the last meeting...from the short story...it appears jack was restless and jumpy...who knows...only the author can answer these questions...
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I think I know the answer of Jack's death. That whole story about blowing up the tire on his truck was a lie. In the last scene when Ennis is telling Jack it won't be until November til he can get away.... well, the truck that Jack has is a Dually. It has two extra tires on the back. if he blew one on the back he could keep on driving til he got to a garage, no? If he blew one of the front, he is smart enough to use a spare or one of the four in the back. No need to blow up any tire. That bitch lied!
Somebody please tell me I am wrong. I don't want to believe like he was a victim of a horrible death. :( :( :(
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I don't know. She sure acted like she was lying, but that story she told...kinda complicated to be a lie. How would she even know that was possible, and why would she make it so complex? It's not like she was ever going to meet Ennis, or that he'd be able to find out anything about Jack's death other than what she told him. Why not just say he crashed his truck? Why be so carefully detailed about it? The whole thing is just odd.
camom
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She felt shamed of Jack'd death. She created a complicated story to convince herself and others that Jack's death was normal.
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Interesting thing is we cannot get what we see in the movie from the short story. At the end of the phone conversation the author writes and remember it is not Ennis thinking 'No doubt about it, she was polite but the little voice was as cold as snow'. IMO the scene is more suggestive than the short story. I guess movie being different medium than a short story it was necessary to interpret this line differently. The odd thing is we don't know when exactly the ACCIDENT happend. We only know it was months after the last confrontational meeting with Ennis. Okay Ennis's card came back but when did it come back? We assume it was before the November meeting but we are not told that and we can only assume because of the message on it. However, the card could have come back next Spring or even later. The expected November meeting could have never happend since Jack didn't respond and Ennis would have thought Jack was mad or something and wouldn't have done anything. The reason I say this because I found it interesting that for a grieving widow (not to offend anyone) she was dressed to the 9s, makeup, hair, jewelery, cloths, okay the nail polish needed some work but still. Her appearance and her manner would make sense if considerable time has passed between the ACCIDENT and the call. If not Lureen didn't look the part of a woman who lost the love of her life. Unless of course Jack divorced Lureen before he met with the ACCIDENT... Okay I will stop now...
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If you read the story it is apparent that Ennis believes that Jack was murdered. It was not done by Laureen's dad because he was dead by then. It's a moot question because all that matters is that Ennis thinks he was killed.
"The spoon handle was the kind that could be used as a tire iron. And he would wake sometimes in grief, sometimes with the old sense of joy and release, the pilllow sometimes wet, somteimes the sheets.
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and it you can't fix it you've got to stand it."
Ennis is our Hamlet, Otello, Romeo and so many tragic heros of literature. Caught in his own web. I weep for him, I weep for me, I weep for us all.
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It's a moot question because all that matters is that Ennis thinks he was killed.
Absolutely, you're right. What is most shattering is that Ennis believed it. Thanks for cutting right to the heart of the matter.
camom
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I don't know. She sure acted like she was lying, but that story she told...kinda complicated to be a lie. How would she even know that was possible, and why would she make it so complex? It's not like she was ever going to meet Ennis, or that he'd be able to find out anything about Jack's death other than what she told him. Why not just say he crashed his truck? Why be so carefully detailed about it? The whole thing is just odd.
When people bullshit, especially in business, they make it complicated for the person to be worn down to "believe" the lies. Have you seen late-nights infomercials?
My POV is that Lureen was clearly lying. The whole dialogue was cold and scary, devoid of any human emotion as if Jack died as a matter of fact on the newspaper than Jack my husband has died. It even gave me the goosebumps... :(
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I don't know. She sure acted like she was lying, but that story she told...kinda complicated to be a lie. How would she even know that was possible, and why would she make it so complex? It's not like she was ever going to meet Ennis, or that he'd be able to find out anything about Jack's death other than what she told him. Why not just say he crashed his truck? Why be so carefully detailed about it? The whole thing is just odd.
When people bullshit, especially in business, they make it complicated for the person to be worn down to "believe" the lies. Have you seen late-nights infomercials?
My POV is that Lureen was clearly lying. The whole dialogue was cold and scary, devoid of any human emotion as if Jack died as a matter of fact on the newspaper than Jack my husband has died. It even gave me the goosebumps... :(
Are you saying you watch infomercials? ;)
No, I agree that Lureen was lying. Her speech was very stilted, very much as though she had practiced it. That whole scene is chilling and kinda creepy.
camom
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Ok. It is 6:45 in Toronto and I just got up and still thinking about BBM. Gosh, when am I not going to think about it...yikes..
My question is if Ennis believed it was the tire iron and if we are led to believe by the author that Lureen was lying then what really happend to Jack? I did feel there was no emotion in her conversation with Ennis. I guess the million dollar question is how did Jack die?
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Ok. It is 6:45 in Toronto and I just got up and still thinking about BBM. Gosh, when am I not going to think about it...yikes..
My question is if Ennis believed it was the tire iron and if we are led to believe by the author that Lureen was lying then what really happend to Jack? I did feel there was no emotion in her conversation with Ennis. I guess the million dollar question is how did Jack die?
Ang Lee says clearly in the video of the Charlie Rose interview that
it was obvious (or should have been) that she was lying.
No matter what was vague in the short story, Ang Lee's interpretation for the
movie is what counts when we're thinking about the movie...
Interesting discussions I've been reading. Nicely run forum...
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camom: I watch some when I couldn't sleep. Nope I don't buy any but I thought they are an extension of "The View"... ;D
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camom: I watch some when I couldn't sleep. Nope I don't buy any but I thought they are an extension of "The View"... ;D
Luckily here we have Turner Classic Movies all night!
It's true that when we're watching the movie, it's Ang Lee's interpretation. It's hard, though, when you've also read the story multiple times--in my mind they tend to blend together. Sometimes I forget that to some extent they really are slightly different tellings of the same events.
camom
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In the screenplay (and subsequently on the screen) Lureen's recounting of Jack's death is made in a "level voice". I think Ang's interpretation is clear.
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I still say tire iron. :-*
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I don't want Jack to be dead...I don't want Ennis to be miserable...
I can't stop going back to watch it all again, and every time I do, I get a terrible headache from all the tension. At this rate, my head is going to explode by the time the Oscars come around.
I don't want Jack to be dead!!!! :'(
camom
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I was living in New York City in the early 80's. I went to see about a room in an apartment. I met with a young (female) columbia law student who had the lease on the apartment. In those days the "clone" look was popular and I was wearing tight levis and a flannel shirt. This woman picked up on the fact that I might be gay and started asking in a very dispassionate tone of voice "if I was seeing someone, would HE OR SHE be also sharing the bedroom some of the time." When I confirmed her suspician ( since I had a lover at the time ) that "I was seeing someone and "he" ..... ( I started using the pronoun that confirmed I was gay. )
Whenever I used the " he " pronoun she let out a barely audible gasp. She didn't want to admit to homophobia but the barelysurpressed gasp was so much like Lureen it is uncanny.
To be fair to the Lureen character she obviously had been through major shock and speaking to Ennis confirmed things that probably had crossed her mind about Jack but probably never gave serious thought. They just grew apart as she learned she was a good businesswoman
( which would have given a woman a lot of satisfaction - compare with the financial strains Alma faced ) Lureen and Jack were both outgoing and since Jack had the touch as a salesman their relationship seemed more amicable. Lureen enjoyed seeing Jack tell her dad off
at Thanksgiving.
I agree with most of those who post here saying that Jack was murdered by the roughneck crowd and Lureen had nothing to do with it but suddenly found that to keep her business thriving she needed to stick to the accepted version of Jack's death. When she was younger she
probably got what she wanted from her dad. She knew what she liked when she saw Jack and went for him. Before Jack's death she probably never experienced the ugly side of life - which is the exact opposite of Ennis who was traumatised by the sight of a gruesome murder at 8 or 9. Lureen doesn't even know what Ennis had witnesssed as a child.
Did anyone here think it was odd that Lureen had never met Jack's parents?
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I know. It is strange Lureen did not meet Mr. Twist Sr and Mrs Twist. For that matter I do not think even his son met his grand-parents. I wonder why? Even Jack did not take Lureen and his son to Lightinin Flat to meet his parents. I understand Jack went up every year to Lightinin Flat to help out his folks. Strange is it not?
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DECEASED. He called Jack's number in Childress, something he had done only once before when Alma divorced him and Jack had misunderstood the reason for the call,had driven twelve hundred miles north for nothing. This would be alright, Jack would answer, had to answer. But he did not. It was Laureen and she said who? who is this? and when he told her again she said in a level voice yes, Jack was pumping up a flat on the truck out on the back road when the tire blew up. The bead was damage somehow and the force of the explosion slammed the rim into his face, broke his nose and jaw and knocked him unconscious on his back. By the time someone came along he had drown in his own blood.
No, he thought, they got him with the tire iron.
Jack used to mention you, " she said". You're the fishing buddy or the hunting buddy, I know that.
Would have let you know, " she said", but I wasn't sure about your name and address. Jack kept most of his friend's addresses in his head. It was a terrible thing.
He was only thirty-nine years old.
The huge sadness of the northern plains rolled down on him. he didn't know which way it was, the tire iron or a real accident, blood chocking down Jack's throat and nobody to turn him over. Under the wind drone he heard steel slamming off bone, the hollow chatter of a settling tire rim.
Note: No doubt about it, she was polite but the little voice was cold as snow.
PS; there is this little passage in the book that may reveal more that one may think, it goes as follow:
Ennis and Jack last together, they had this conversation: Jack said he'd had a thing going with the wife of a rancher down the road in Childress and for the last few months he'd slank around expecting to the SHOT by Laureen or the husband, one. Ennis laughed a little and said he probably deserved it. Jack said he was doing all right but he missed Ennis bad enough sometime to make him whip babies.
My dilemma here is that one clearly see that Laureen is quite Jealous and possessive, try to remember Lechan's Husband chatting with jack and prodding him about going to the cabin fishing,my concern here was this some ruse from Laureen in trying to know what Jack was all about and she ended up putting the pieces together?????
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HI FRENCHDA,
You gave me something to think about. I watched the movie again last night and I paid attention to the party seen with LaShawn, Jack, Lureen and Randall. I know there were some knowing looks between Jack and Randall, but I'm not sure still who exactly Jack was flirting with, was it LaShawn or Randall. Mind you this is not in the short story so I find it difficult to figure out the purpose of this whole scene. I think maybe the play writers put it in there to introduce Randall, which ties into Jack's father saying at the end how Jack is going to bring home another one. To link this to your comment, we don't know for sure if Jack was seeing the wife or the husband. Some times I think he really was seeing the wife and then sometimes I wonder otherwise. If so I wonder if Lureen did shoot Jack would she have gotten away with it, it being early 80s.
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FYI: did you know that Jack's son was fifteen, dyslexic and could hardly read, he could see it trough goddamn Laureen wouldn't admit to it and pretended the kid was o.k., refused to get any bitching kind a help about it. he didn't know what the f*** teh answer was. Laureen had teh money and called the shots.
Note; just a little more insight into Laureen personna!
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Yep. I think it shows she was cought up in her work and ignored everything. Almost she did not want to believe in the truth or reality.
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So much so that my fridge is warmer than she'lle ever be
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HI FRENCHDA,
You gave me something to think about. I watched the movie again last night and I paid attention to the party seen with LaShawn, Jack, Lureen and Randall. I know there were some knowing looks between Jack and Randall, but I'm not sure still who exactly Jack was flirting with, was it LaShawn or Randall. Mind you this is not in the short story so I find it difficult to figure out the purpose of this whole scene. I think maybe the play writers put it in there to introduce Randall, which ties into Jack's father saying at the end how Jack is going to bring home another one. To link this to your comment, we don't know for sure if Jack was seeing the wife or the husband. Some times I think he really was seeing the wife and then sometimes I wonder otherwise. If so I wonder if Lureen did shoot Jack would she have gotten away with it, it being early 80s.
I'lle get back to you on that one, I am still holding on that Laureen had something to do with Randall prodding Jack, more I see the movie more it keeps creeping up on me the wrong way. the women is mean like mean! she's like her daddy stud swan! ;D
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I still say tire iron. :-*
Has anyone talked about the "homophobic incidents involving tire iron" in Wyoming? Or do you think that the incident is purely ficitional?
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same here, tire iron
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How did Jack die? Was his wife covering for something? Do you think she had him killed? A response to finding out he was leaving her and moving to Wyoming to "ranch up" with another man (re: what his parents told Ennis)...? There was something very fishy about that conversation, between her and Ennis.
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Hello and welcome.
you might want to read this thread
Jack Twist ending - spoiler (http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=405.0)
I had to edit your title..hope you don't mind x
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I read the story, and deeply thought about many clues in the movie.
1. When Ennis visited Jack's parents, the dad said that although Jack had often spoke of bringing Ennis up to the ranch, he had most recently disclosed that he had a new "friend", a neighbor rancher, that he would be bringing up to the ranch to live. The father also said that Jack had decided to leave his wife.
2. There was a scene where Jack was talking to a neighbor rancher, who asked him to go to a cabin for a weekend, alone, a clear reference that the two of them would have private time to be intimate.
3. I think Jack started a relationship with another rancher, and told his wife he was leaving her, for a man.
4. I think the wife's father, big dady-in-law, was full of rage, he always despised Jack. I think the father-in-law arranged for Jack to be murdered.
5. I think Jack's wife knew what her daddy arranged for her. Her daddy was not going to let his princess be the laughing stock of the county, so he had Jack bumped off. That is why she pretended not to know who Ennis was when he called. This was all a calculated diminuation of who Jack had been. She was already cut off, as Jack had long since turned to regular sex with other men, out side of Ennis.
So yes, Jack was murdered by thugs hired by his Father-in-law.
Hi Lamar, the more I think about it and also after reading your analysis, I am convinced that Jack was killed as the quick flash in the movie suggested. Thanks for your detailed insights.
I think Jack was killed also, but remember at that time Jack's father in law had already died, remember he said his wife was a good business woman..
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Ang discusses this with Charlie Rose in their interview from December.
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Ang discusses this with Charlie Rose in their interview from December.
Thanks for reminding bnjmn3, I need to watch this interview again.
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Watched it last night, both Ang and Heath are incredible and rather humble with Charlie. Very informative, too.
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Watched it last night, both Ang and Heath are incredible and rather humble with Charlie. Very informative, too.
Ang and Heath are always humble, I just so love and respect these men. Same for Jake BTW.
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Ennis and Jack last together, they had this conversation: Jack said he'd had a thing going with the wife of a rancher down the road in Childress and for the last few months he'd slank around expecting to the SHOT by Laureen or the husband, one. Ennis laughed a little and said he probably deserved it. Jack said he was doing all right but he missed Ennis bad enough sometime to make him whip babies.
Aha! So we have the answer at last: LaShawn was the killer! (she being the "husband" Jack mentioned who might shoot him--he had reversed the genders in his lie to Ennis). LaShawn has two reasons to want to get rid of Jack: 1. she had fallen in love with Jack and then felt spurned when she discovered that ... 2. Jack was gay and shtupping her very own husband, which would of course scandalize her and frighten her little sorority heart to the core that people might find out her husband was gay.
j/k ;)
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Has anyone noticed in some of the short docs about BBM that there are scenes of some men..(front shot of one balding guy in a uniform or mechanic outfit)..who just might be the "killers" of Jack we see by the railroad tracks in Ennis' mind. They are listed in the credits, but has anyone else seen that shots I refer to?? I have seen it on IFC for sure.
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i think that everybody may have their own answer about the dead of jack. it's according to your feeling and thinking of the movie.
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i think that everybody may have their own answer about the dead of jack. it's according to your feeling and thinking of the movie.
or short story.
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I don't want Jack to be dead...I don't want Ennis to be miserable...
I can't stop going back to watch it all again, and every time I do, I get a terrible headache from all the tension. At this rate, my head is going to explode by the time the Oscars come around.
I don't want Jack to be dead!!!! :'(
camom
I wish They went to live together and to have a happy end
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Has anyone noticed in some of the short docs about BBM that there are scenes of some men..(front shot of one balding guy in a uniform or mechanic outfit)..who just might be the "killers" of Jack we see by the railroad tracks in Ennis' mind. They are listed in the credits, but has anyone else seen that shots I refer to?? I have seen it on IFC for sure.
They're in the trailer, the scene was cut from the movie.
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ok here's my take on this after reading all the posts here and watching the movie...
i'm still not sure... LOL
but i'm leaning towards jack being killed...
here's a few thoughts
1. one thing that struck me as incredibly odd (that no one here has mentioned) was that jacks wife acted as though she did not know enis at all... how is this possible when they spend weeks together every year... i'm sure jack told her where he was going and with who (but not about sex of course)... so it seemed obvious to me that she was pretending to not know who enis was for a reason (see #2)... hell, jack even told his parents about enis, i'm sure he told his wife he was going "fishing with a buddy"
2. the fact that jacks wife was so distant to enis, after mostly likely knowing he was a good friend of her husbands leads me to believe even more that she knew he was killed (and at least that her husband was gay)... if she only thought he was a good friend she wouldn't have been so distant... so, she either found out coincidentally that her husband was gay and didn't know how to address it with enis OR (and this is where i'm leaning) she knew he was killed BECAUSE he was gay and it was too embarassing for the truth to be told to the community... she was clearly either in shock and/or working to save herself the pain of having been married to a gay man (and in this respect, i do understand her attitude, even though she wasn't the warmest person... she wasn't the only one who lied here!!)
3. the flashbacks to jack being beaten were either exactly what happened OR what enis was worried about what happened... but they certainly were NOT what enis KNEW happened, as he clearly did not know what happened
4. jacks mom knew he was gay and that enis was his lover.. i also think jacks dad knew but had a harder time with it
5. i find it highly unlikely that the author would purposely put in that jack was killed accidentally... its just too much of a coincidence... the whole purpose of the movie was to expose the heartbreak and hopelessness of gay oppression... of course she put in the possibility that jack was murdered because it is highly likely it could happen
6. i dont think that jacks wife had him killed, and obviously those who have read the book have vouched that her father didnt kill him cuz he was dead, so i tend to think it was someone he outed himself to that beat him
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ok here's my take on this after reading all the posts here and watching the movie...
i'm still not sure... LOL
but i'm leaning towards jack being killed...
here's a few thoughts
1. one thing that struck me as incredibly odd (that no one here has mentioned) was that jacks wife acted as though she did not know enis at all... how is this possible when they spend weeks together every year... i'm sure jack told her where he was going and with who (but not about sex of course)... so it seemed obvious to me that she was pretending to not know who enis was for a reason (see #2)... hell, jack even told his parents about enis, i'm sure he told his wife he was going "fishing with a buddy"
2. the fact that jacks wife was so distant to enis, after mostly likely knowing he was a good friend of her husbands leads me to believe even more that she knew he was killed (and at least that her husband was gay)... if she only thought he was a good friend she wouldn't have been so distant... so, she either found out coincidentally that her husband was gay and didn't know how to address it with enis OR (and this is where i'm leaning) she knew he was killed BECAUSE he was gay and it was too embarassing for the truth to be told to the community... she was clearly either in shock and/or working to save herself the pain of having been married to a gay man (and in this respect, i do understand her attitude, even though she wasn't the warmest person... she wasn't the only one who lied here!!)
3. the flashbacks to jack being beaten were either exactly what happened OR what enis was worried about what happened... but they certainly were NOT what enis KNEW happened, as he clearly did not know what happened
4. jacks mom knew he was gay and that enis was his lover.. i also think jacks dad knew but had a harder time with it
5. i find it highly unlikely that the author would purposely put in that jack was killed accidentally... its just too much of a coincidence... the whole purpose of the movie was to expose the heartbreak and hopelessness of gay oppression... of course she put in the possibility that jack was murdered because it is highly likely it could happen
6. i dont think that jacks wife had him killed, and obviously those who have read the book have vouched that her father didnt kill him cuz he was dead, so i tend to think it was someone he outed himself to that beat him
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In the Charlie Rose interview, Ang says that Lureen was obviously lying to Ennis during the phone conversation concerning Jack's death.
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I know. It is strange Lureen did not meet Mr. Twist Sr and Mrs Twist. For that matter I do not think even his son met his grand-parents. I wonder why? Even Jack did not take Lureen and his son to Lightinin Flat to meet his parents. I understand Jack went up every year to Lightinin Flat to help out his folks. Strange is it not?
Where would they all have slept at Jack's parents house?
And who would have taken care of the business while they all were gone?
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1. one thing that struck me as incredibly odd (that no one here has mentioned) was that jacks wife acted as though she did not know enis at all... how is this possible when they spend weeks together every year... i'm sure jack told her where he was going and with who (but not about sex of course)... so it seemed obvious to me that she was pretending to not know who enis was for a reason
Nobody has corrected you on this so I thought I would as you have expressed the same thought several times.
When Ennis called Lureen she did say she knew who he was. She referred to him as Jack's fishing buddy or hunting buddy.
LUREEN: Hello?
ENNIS: Uh, hello, this is Ennis del Mar, I uh. . . .
LUREEN: Who? Who is this?
ENNIS: Ennis del Mar. I'm an old buddy of Jack's, I. . . .
LUREEN: Jack use to mention you. You're the fishing buddy or the hunting buddy, I know that. Would have let you know, but wasn't sure about your name or address. Jack kept his friends' addresses in his head.
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thanks patriot, i do remember her saying that.... but don't you think it odd that after all those years, and all the weeks they spent together that she would make it seem like ennis was just some old lost friend? i mean, they had a current, recurrent, long term deep friendship that jack did not hide from... my point here is that i believe that she knew why/how jack was killed and was trying to protect herself from the scandal... and ennis was a big part of the scandal, so she did acknowledge him, but as little as possible
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thanks patriot, i do remember her saying that.... but don't you think it odd that after all those years, and all the weeks they spent together that she would make it seem like ennis was just some old lost friend? i mean, they had a current, recurrent, long term deep friendship that jack did not hide from... my point here is that i believe that she knew why/how jack was killed and was trying to protect herself from the scandal... and ennis was a big part of the scandal, so she did acknowledge him, but as little as possible
To tell you the truth sweet_man_1, I don't think Lureen was concerned with scandal. If anyone found out Lureen's husband was killed because he was gay the town's people would probably have felt sorry for HER because she had a degenerate husband. She probably would have benefited from people knowing.
I don't think she was concerned about scandal and Ennis knowing. As soon as Ennis told her he and Jack herded sheep on Brokeback in 1963 she suddenly realized exactly who he was and she started to cry. This was her husbands lover. She said about Brokeback, "Well, he said it was his favorite place. I thought he meant to get drunk. (Now I know he meant it was his favorite place to get screwed ---- implied words not said)
As for not acknowledging Ennis more, would you acknowledge your lover's boyfriend any more than you had to? Your lover was cheating on you with this man on the phone. In fact, the longer she talked to Ennis the madder she got until finally she slammed the phone down on him.
Come to think of it, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Lureen found out about Jack and Randall and had Jack killed. There must have been some ruthlessness of her father in her. Besides, if Jack had asked her for a divorce I don't think she was about to give up half of everything she owns to Jack so he can go and live with a man.
Another thing to consider, they were married more than 20 years and had only one kid. Their sex life must have been non-existant. Now she knows why. Jack was out trying to have the babies. :o ;D
That sure must have been a blow to her ego.
There are some straight women on the forum, maybe they can tell us how Lureen would have felt from a woman's perspective.
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well i still disagree but appreciate your disagreement... i highly doubt that after a 20 year marriage that this woman would find sollace in outing her gay husband to the redneck community
i do understand her reaction, as well as her wanting to make up a story covering up the truth about his death
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well i still disagree but appreciate your disagreement... i highly doubt that after a 20 year marriage that this woman would find sollace in outing her gay husband to the redneck community
i do understand her reaction, as well as her wanting to make up a story covering up the truth about his death
Oh I don't think SHE made up the story. I'll bet the sheriff reported it that way. When gay people are killed in redneck areas the cause of death is often falsified and made to look like an accident.
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i also disagree that she had jack killed... it doesnt follow the story line in the book or the movie... there's enough unknown in the story (for good reason) to just toss out far flung theories... i think the more we look at the movie at face value, the better
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well now you are contradicting yourself... first you say laureen would get support for having a gay husband, but now you say they all need to cover it up...
again, saying that you bet the sheriff reported it that way is adding way more to the story than is intended...
to me, trying to stick to the info given and taking things at face value is much more interesting than adding external theories
enjoying the discussion...
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well now you are contradicting yourself... first you say laureen would get support for having a gay husband, but now you say they all need to cover it up...
FOR THE OFFICIAL RECORDS So they don't have to look for who did it. They may know who did it but if it is listed as an accident they do not have to arrest anyone for killing a "pervert."
again, saying that you bet the sheriff reported it that way is adding way more to the story than is intended...
That is just the way it is many times in the united states.
to me, trying to stick to the info given and taking things at face value is much more interesting than adding external theories
Then you will have to stop speculating about everything to do with Ennis's phone call to Lureen because the book, screenplay and movie tell nothing about what Lureen was thinking or why she was acting the way she was. Any discussion about that is pure speculation and theory.
In fact, whether Jack was killed or did indeed die from an accident is also speculation and theory. We are never told.
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i give up LOL... i dont think you understand what i am saying
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i give up LOL... i dont think you understand what i am saying
I guess not and I am sorry for that.
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Having seen the movie for the 5th time yesterday, I paid especial attention to the matter at hand. I also noticed when baby Bobby is brought home after his birth, that the photo by the bedside is from the very night Lureen and Jack both won in their events at the Childress rodeo. Lureen was just as enamoured of the cowboy myth as Jack and Ennis. Jack just happened to be a winner in the right place at the right time (and damned cute too!). Perhaps hooking up with Jack was a bit of rebellion on her part against Big Daddy. Wonder too, if she got pregnant that first night in the back of the car. Like many married couples they drifted apart and ended up going through the motions, she having her business and Jack his moments with Ennis.
The fateful phone call. She was hiding something. Rehearsing a well-crafted story. Lots of people would have had to be told the news, some sooner than others. No surprise she didn't know how to get in touch with Ennis. What was striking with this viewing is that it is all business reciting the story of Jack's death. She's done it many times before. But her tears at learning the significance of BBM to Jack, "We herded sheep up on BBM one summer", the pieces are falling into place. Jack had an attachment to a particular place, wanted more than anything to have his remains scattered there. A holy place, one that was so only because of that summer. Ennis' reaction, his painful silence, his "we was friends" all that pulls back the curtain on the emotional life of her husband she knew nothing about. She and Jack were strangers and she realised that in the end. Whether she knew he was gay or not is an open question. I find it hard to believe that she didn't have some inkling, but then I talk in my sleep.
What I don't believe is that Randall had a hand in it. At the dance when Jack, irritated at Lureen's nagging him about not dancing with her, asks LaShawn; Randall is startled to hear Jack say "would you like to dance?". For a split second Randall thinks the invitation is for him, it's what he must be fantasing about at that moment looking into Jack's lovely blue eyes. They got it together, Randall was the "rancher's wife" Jack confesses having an affair with. Whoever did Jack in, if it was murder, was someone who knew or thought Jack was gay and wanted to bash the queer. Maybe LaShawn, less likely Lureen, maybe friends of her father's, who knows. It doesn't really matter because Jack is still dead. All the more painful for Ennis knowing that he wouldn't be if Ennis had had the courage to be with Jack and make a life together in Wyoming. That's the real tragedy. Titus.
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Very well said Titus, I totally agree with what you said.
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Forgive me if this was a previous thread, but...I was just reading an article in The Advocate with the BBM screenwriters. The interviewer states, "Ennis is convinced that Jack was murdered with a tire iron. I don't necessarily believe it."
One of the writers says that Jack's death is ambiguous even to Annie P. "...we tell people that (we don't know) what actually happened to Jack. But that's what Ennis thinks, and he's been set up to think that by his entire past...What is more tragic than not knowing how your loved one died?"
I actually had an argument with my sister (Del_Marvelous) about this. She is convinced that the tire iron scene really happened, where I think that it is just what Ennis *thinks* happened. Obviously, we will never know the truth. I am curious to read what other people think about this.
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Here are a couple of topics that have discussed Jack's death. (I thought there were more, unless I just couldn't find them)
Jack Twist Ending
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=405.msg2564#msg2564
Oprah’s question- Did Lureen Know
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=952.msg8842#msg8842
Personally, I think Jack was murdered. An accident would be so much easier to accept (though I still can't accept the fact that Jack dies) but my first impression was that he was murdered and I can't seem to shake that. I think the not knowing puts us in the position of becoming Ennis- never truly knowing what happened- as if we're not tormented enough watching/feeling their good and bad times over 20 years. Like Ennis, we will never truly know and will perhaps alternate between scenarios trying to come up with something we can cope with.
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Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, LJN. :)
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You're welcome :)
I knew there were more :)
Jack’s death
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=6895.msg286382#msg286382
Did Lureen know
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=6149.msg37576#msg37576
Did Lureen have Jack Killed
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=3468.msg74320#msg74320
Tire iron scene- enter at your own risk
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=4252.msg122551#msg122551
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I've read the post from the past thanks to LuvJackNasty, thanks it was great reading.
I my very humble opinion: Jack's death was an accident, but Ennis will never be able to reconcile the two, a tire iron got to Jack, or it was just an accident, on a lonely road. Ennis's fear of death at the hands of someone else prevented him from moving the relationship no further than what it was, that was whole point in this tug-o-war between the two.
Tire irons, irrigation ditches, being left dead on a lonely road, that was Ennis's reality. Jack could have a simple heart attack, Ennis would have never seen it in any other way, but "Finally they got me/ him."
Another question: in the short story, Ennis cursed Lureen in his mind for not being there with Jack, Why didn't he put himself there, most people would, "I wish I was there," Was Ennis so far removed that he couldn't even think at a time like this to put himself outside of Riverton, to be by Jack's side?
All of this might have said before, forgive me, but just my thoughts running through my head.
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Another question: in the short story, Ennis cursed Lureen in his mind for not being there with Jack, Why didn't he put himself there, most people would, "I wish I was there," Was Ennis so far removed that he couldn't even think at a time like this to put himself outside of Riverton, to be by Jack's side?
All of this might have said before, forgive me, but just my thoughts running through my head.
Hmmm I have two thoughts running through my mind. The first is that by wanting to "curse her for letting Jack die on the dirt road" could be perhaps her not taking care of him. When not with Ennis, Jack was in the care of Lureen. Unless Lureen set up the attack (or accident) there was nothing she could have done to prevent him from dying. Perhaps it could also mean he had to be missing for ahile and maybe she didn't get help to him soon enough. Her voice is described as cold as snow- so perhaps by her not too emotional re-telling of her husband's death got to him. That ties into thought number 2 (and another thread -that I believe you started- on the abusive relationship) It could be the blame game- his knee jerk reaction. It could be simply a matter of "killing the messenger"; sometimes we tend to take things out on the wrong person.
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t's kind of a reverse of the usual assumption - that a husband should protect his wife.
It's always struck me as ironic that in Lureen's verson Jack was knocked out and fell on his back so that he drowned in his own blood. If there'd been someone to turn him over ( as Ennis did in FNIT and as he later did to Alma) Jack would have survived.
In Ennis's imagined version, again Jack was alone, and that's presumably why Ennis resents Lureen, for not being there. Another irony when you think how rarely he was there for Jack.
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Forgive me if this was a previous thread, but...I was just reading an article in The Advocate with the BBM screenwriters. The interviewer states, "Ennis is convinced that Jack was murdered with a tire iron. I don't necessarily believe it."
One of the writers says that Jack's death is ambiguous even to Annie P. "...we tell people that (we don't know) what actually happened to Jack. But that's what Ennis thinks, and he's been set up to think that by his entire past...What is more tragic than not knowing how your loved one died?"
I actually had an argument with my sister (Del_Marvelous) about this. She is convinced that the tire iron scene really happened, where I think that it is just what Ennis *thinks* happened. Obviously, we will never know the truth. I am curious to read what other people think about this.
Well, Jack's end is intentionally ambiguous in the short story, although I had been told that in the movie, you never do that kind of scene unless you want the viewer to know how the person is killed.
I think the ambiguity is part of the power of the story. It leaves us unbalanaced, as in most cases in real life.
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I agree with you, Thomas, about the ending of the movie. Sometimes I think Jack's death was as Lureen told Ennis, adn sometimes I think it was as Ennis imagined it to have been. The ambiguity is something I can live with; it adds to the mystery of the whole story. We don't really need a definitive answer.
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I agree with you, Thomas, about the ending of the movie. Sometimes I think Jack's death was as Lureen told Ennis, adn sometimes I think it was as Ennis imagined it to have been. The ambiguity is something I can live with; it adds to the mystery of the whole story. We don't really need a definitive answer.
I think to pin down a definite answer would be to rob the story of a lot of it's power. Not knowing how Jack exactly died disturbs us. It reminds us that life -- even at its end -- is never a certainty.
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Another question: in the short story, Ennis cursed Lureen in his mind for not being there with Jack, Why didn't he put himself there, most people would, "I wish I was there," Was Ennis so far removed that he couldn't even think at a time like this to put himself outside of Riverton, to be by Jack's side?
This is one of the *easier* questions about this part of the movie. If you've been around people who have experienced death, it is very very common to lash out in anger at someone. People lash out at family members for long-forgotten slights, at the clergy who perform the funeral, at the florist, at God...
When I was young and foolish, I had my students write a "personal narrative" in response to a story we had read that dealt with the death of a family member. (I can't even remember what the story was now.) It was uncanny how similar they all were--grandma dies, lots of crying; then after the funeral or some time, there is a big fight with somebody blaming somebody for the death.
I could give more examples, but Ennis is definitely reacting to the death with irrational anger, which, of course, is pretty much Ennis's way of dealing with things--until the scene in LF, which is what makes it so moving. He's no longer projecting and hiding behind anger; he's accepted the love he shared with Jack, and he accepts the loss.
As LuvJN mentioned upthread, of course the person he should be/is angry with is himself. As I pointed out in the thread "Tire Irons: Enter at your own risk," Ennis sees himself as responsible for Jack's death. He can't accept this, so he projects his anger at himself onto Lureen, Jack's other "mate."
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As LuvJN mentioned upthread, of course the person he should be/is angry with is himself. As I pointed out in the thread "Tire Irons: Enter at your own risk," Ennis sees himself as responsible for Jack's death. He can't accept this, so he projects his anger at himself onto Lureen, Jack's other "mate."
Wonderful post, edgar.
I think Ennis could have looked at Jack's death as an affirmation of his own fears, but I think that he didn't. I do think that he realized what he had missed and had now lost with Jack' death. I guess he blamed himself also for that.
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The last time I read the SS, I became convinced that Ennis's vision of Jack's death was the true one. When Ennis is sitting at the Twists' table, and Mr. Twist mentions Jack saying he was going to bring his rancher-neighbor up to LF, ANnie says Ennis knew at that moment that Jack was killed by the tire iron. He knew Jack was messing with another man (men), and was sure Jack had been "found out" and punished by gay-bashers in the area. This never made an impression on me until the last time I read it.
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The last time I read the SS, I became convinced that Ennis's vision of Jack's death was the true one. When Ennis is sitting at the Twists' table, and Mr. Twist mentions Jack saying he was going to bring his rancher-neighbor up to LF, ANnie says Ennis knew at that moment that Jack was killed by the tire iron. He knew Jack was messing with another man (men), and was sure Jack had been "found out" and punished by gay-bashers in the area. This never made an impression on me until the last time I read it.
Although ambiguous in the ss, I do think the movie version shows a subtle preference to Ennis's vision of Jack's death via tire iron.
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Maybe Jack is not dead.
All we have is an aloof widow's story, and she's pretty cold about it. She may have teared up because she knew that this person out of Jack's distant past and favorite place was someone who was going to be the most deeply hurt... by her lie. Maybe Jack was paid by his father in law to just disappear. The family fabricated a story and stuck with it and stamped all his mail DECEASED. Ennis bought it without question or investigation, which is true to his character type, but not good enough for me. I still adore him, but sheesh, he just takes it.
It's probably wishful thinking on my part, but these thoughts don't leave me. Their happy ending is all I seem to think about and want right now. Just saw the movie 2 weeks ago, I'm freshly wounded, obsessed, and have watched it several times this week.
Do look at the facts in the movie... we don't know. We never saw a funeral, we have a hearsay story and an image. that's all we have. We don't see Jack die. I can't comment on the book because I didn't read it, but judging by the movie alone, it spells SEQUEL and maybe Ang Lee is working on just that.
If not, should we request or presssure for a sequel? Or is everyone fine with the movie as it is?
Glad you all are here! Finding you was a blessing!
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Hi Tamlynn and Welcome :)
That's an interesting take on the movie. IMO Jack really did die- I've seen other theories very long ago that Jack wasn't really dead and in my mind I can't see him faking his death. I've played out what ifs and thought maybe it was possible that he quit Ennis and wanted no more contact and what a way to do it but I can't see him doing that. I want nothing more than for him to be alive but I can't see everyone going along with it- especially his mother. As much as it kills me I think his death was a necessary part of the story because it brought Ennis out of his shell on some level- calling Lureen, going to the ranch and owning up to the fact that their relationship did exist and then later on with Junior when he agrees to go to her wedding. It also teaches us that you're not guaranteed tomorrow, there may not be a next time, to hold onto those you love and that maybe taking a risk is okay because the regrets of would've, should've and could've are so horribly painful to live with. At least that's how I see it.
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Well said, LuvJackNasty. Although my heart breaks to think of Jack dying (no matter which way was the truth), I don't think the story would have the depth of meaning and feeling it does without that soooo regrettable ending. You're still grieveing, Tamlynn, and will be for a long time. We all were (are). Read the short story sometime, if you can. It helps round out the story, may answer some questions, and will probably cause you to ask more questions. This is true literature and is worthy of all the emotions, ruminations and time we brokies put into it. Welcome! #$# :cr)
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Thanks LuvJackNasty and lamusica for your response. I do think the lessons are profound and I think they would stick even if a sequel did come out. I won't let go will I? I wish I knew how to quit it. I really enjoy these boards and messages... I'll probably get earphones before I get the book but I will get the book too. Are you sure Jack couldn't be alive... any remote chance? Seemed like the movie left it open. And, it does make me feel better to think he just took his father in law's money to disappear for awhile. One terrific movie, nonetheless. Thanks again.
Tamlynn
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Thanks LuvJackNasty and lamusica for your response. I do think the lessons are profound and I think they would stick even if a sequel did come out. I won't let go will I? I wish I knew how to quit it. I really enjoy these boards and messages... I'll probably get earphones before I get the book but I will get the book too. Are you sure Jack couldn't be alive... any remote chance? Seemed like the movie left it open. And, it does make me feel better to think he just took his father in law's money to disappear for awhile. One terrific movie, nonetheless. Thanks again.
Tamlynn
Interesting thoughts, tamlynn. Thank you so much for sharing it.
A part of me always thinks what if Jack lived. The "what if" part haunts me.
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i think ennis's is the true story. Jack's wife seemed to calm when she told Eniis like she was telling a story about someone other than her husband.
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It´s such an interesting topic that I can only be sorry for not having discovered it before. :t) all for your posts...Specially Tamlynn,because sometimes I´ve also thought that perhaps Jack was not dead,but hidden to run away from all what had been his life up to then.Surely he was fed up with everything-he was at the point of quitting Ennis,with all the pain that this carries,perhaps the new relationship with Randall didn´t fullfil his expectatives,the simple sexual relief with Mexican hustlers wasn´t what he looked for,he felt underestimated in his professional,familiar and personal life...-.
In this so ugly landscape,it´s logical to think that he went away,with the "help" of his father-in-law or not.For me,LJN,this the same than his real death,also could oblige Ennis to go out from his shell ,let Jack breath and see problems with another perspective and,somehow,put evrything in its place
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At the same time,this situation would have given Ennis a sad lesson he must have obtained several years before, and also would have teached us to fight for our objectives,to hold to love when we get it,to be more tolerants with other persons and,very often,also with ourselves,TO LIVE, in sum...
Moreover,the development of the last half an hour doesn´t give us a definitve proof of his death, even his wife is too cold to having lost his beloved husband for a sudden accident,don´t you think?.This solution wouldn´t be,in sum,so tragic and definitive but with the same amount of denouncement of the intolerance in a close country community...
If Jack is really dead,of course I vote for the father-in-law,perhaps having used Randall as a "bait",an incentive to attract him and make him more vulnerable.And with the "ideological" help of Ennis.What´s your opinion?.
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i think ennis's is the true story. Jack's wife seemed to calm when she told Eniis like she was telling a story about someone other than her husband.
To be sure, I think it was the film's intention to show that Lureen was not telling the truth. She was telling the story by rote.
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At the same time,this situation would have given Ennis a sad lesson he must have obtained several years before, and also would have teached us to fight for our objectives,to hold to love when we get it,to be more tolerants with other persons and,very often,also with ourselves,TO LIVE, in sum...
Moreover,the development of the last half an hour doesn´t give us a definitve proof of his death, even his wife is too cold to having lost his beloved husband for a sudden accident,don´t you think?.This solution wouldn´t be,in sum,so tragic and definitive but with the same amount of denouncement of the intolerance in a close country community...
If Jack is really dead,of course I vote for the father-in-law,perhaps having used Randall as a "bait",an incentive to attract him and make him more vulnerable.
I personally believe that Jack was murdered -- as what Ennis saw in his own mind. But I am not so sure as to the specifics. Personally, I simply felt that it may have been just by chance -- perhaps the mechanics seeing him and Randall kiss, or perhaps a slight or imagined "pass" on one of them. If the deleted scene were to be available at some future date, perhaps we will have a better idea of how Ang Lee and the screen writers envisioned it.
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To be sure, I think it was the film's intention to show that Lureen was not telling the truth. She was telling the story by rote.
Well I did'nt hear her offering Ennis Jack's ashes to carry out his last wishes after she found out who Ennis was. She knew what Jack wanted. Instead she sends Ennis to get them from Jack's folks. Of course the old man refused.
If there ever was some one who knew how to change a tire with out killin them selves, it had to be Jack. I don't by her story. Dead or alive, his spirit lives on in all of us.
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Well I did'nt hear her offering Ennis Jack's ashes to carry out his last wishes after she found out who Ennis was. She knew what Jack wanted. Instead she sends Ennis to get them from Jack's folks. Of course the old man refused.
If there ever was some one who knew how to change a tire with out killin them selves, it had to be Jack. I don't by her story. Dead or alive, his spirit lives on in all of us.
Lureen probably also felt shame -- shame of perhapsd knowing the truth about Jack at last. For her, his death had to be an accident. And Ennis's existence was, in a sense. an affront -- a direct challenge -- to her state of mind.
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In some of these little one horse towns, law enforcement leaves a lot to be desired. May be she's just telling the story as told to her by the sheriff. There would'nt be much sympathy for Jack if he was discovered doing something careless and did'nt know it. Could have been coaxed out of town under false pretenses and killed . My take.
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In some of these little one horse towns, law enforcement leaves a lot to be desired. May be she's just telling the story as told to her by the sheriff. There would'nt be much sympathy for Jack if he was discovered doing something careless and did'nt know it. Could have been coaxed out of town under false pretenses and killed . My take.
This is certainly a possibility, although I can't help but feel that she knew more than she told Ennis. And I do think she realized in the end who Ennis really was, and resented him for it.
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There is the possibility that you said,tpe,about a coincidence in something "sinful "done by Jack and seen for some homophobes, and the possibility that some of us say of a planned murder,being the instigator his father in law or not.In any case,Jack´s death was marked by intolerance,homophobia and stupidity;they were the real weapons, no matter the way they kill him in a physical sense.
And,of course,Lureen knew more than it seems,perhaps enraged if Jack was going to quit her soon;her words and the way of pronouncing them reflects this,the same than her wish of hurting Ennis in same way when she discovered he was the man against who she must fight for Jack´s (love?or social condition?).
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You know, it had never been clear to me if Jack had actually told her about the divorce plans before he died. It would seem that he did, but I have no way of proving it. Lureen certainly had everything to gain to hide this fact after Jack had died. Perhaps she thought that Ennis must have known Jack's intention all along, and felt that Ennis saw through her in that scene.
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While I, too, think Jack was a victim of anti-gay violence, I take a bit of a different view of Lureen.
I don't find her cold in the phone scene with Ennis. I just find her to be tired. She is weary. Her voice reflects this deep weariness. So, I think Jack was killed and I think Lureen knew it all. I think she tried to believe the lie, and probably had repeated that lie so many times to relatives and friends, but, deep down, she knew better.
Perhaps she hadn't thought about Jack's death for a few weeks or months, then she gets Ennis's call. It all comes rushing back at her. When she figures out who Ennis is, she realizes what he was to Jack, so she gives her rote recitation once again.
It is the tears in her eyes that tell me she did love Jack at one time. Maybe things had gone sour in their marriage, but he still meant something to her. (Again, this is a great scene for Ann. She does a great job of playing a woman twice her age, and showing all those years on her face.)
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I was just talking to someone about a half hour ago about this scene, Lamusica. I agree, I don't find her cold. I see it much like you do- I think that she may have had trouble reconciling possible rumors about Jack and Ennis's call pretty much confirmed that it was true. I do think she loved Jack at one time but I think her tears were more for herself when she got that confirmation. I never once thought that she had a hand in what happened to Jack and being in the he was murdered "camp" I do think she knew the truth of what happened to him. When I watched it this scene earlier it struck me as odd that she creamted him - like he wanted but didn't carry out the second part of what he wanted- to be scattered on BBM. I may be way off base but it struck me tonight that perhaps the cremation was necessary. :\'(
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Most of the time I think the murder took place much as Ennis visualized it; then again, there are moments when I think Jack's death was simply an accident. In a way I like that - in the ss it talks about him drowning in his own blood because there was no-one there - had someone been there he could have been turned over and would/might have survived. This in turn takes me back to Ennis flipping Jack over in the FNIT scene and seems to have a symmetry about it which I like. In my darker moods I also like the idea of his death being pointless and a waste, just like so many things in life, because I have a nihilistic streak.
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Interesting comments.
Personally, I do confess that I did think of her as a bit cold, but perhaps this is just me. The reason why is that he never seemed to have expressed that much interest or shared compassion when she talked with Ennis. I think here about all the times I talked with relatives of a dead friend, and in many cases, I saw an effort made to try to find out more about me and how I was a part of the dead man's life. Usually, I find the dead friend to be a sufficient bond to connect with those who knew him but I had never met before.
But this is certainly not foolproof. Perhaps Lureen didn't want to know -- she found out probably enough to know NOT to know any further. So perhaps my sense of her being a bit guarded is expected, given what she knew and what she thought Ennis didn't know.
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Many of us probably think of Lureen as "cold" in this scene because we are familiar with the short story: "No doubt about it, she was polite but the little voice was cold as snow."
I think that AH and AL were working hard in this scene to get across the idea that Lureen knew about Jack's murder, knew lots of things. But I also think the "coldness" comes through. Certainly no one would mistake her manner for "warm" in this scene....
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Many of us probably think of Lureen as "cold" in this scene because we are familiar with the short story: "No doubt about it, she was polite but the little voice was cold as snow."
I think that AH and AL were working hard in this scene to get across the idea that Lureen knew about Jack's murder, knew lots of things. But I also think the "coldness" comes through. Certainly no one would mistake her manner for "warm" in this scene....
This is certainly the way I felt -- like she knew much more than she is letting on. The impression of coldness, I think, comes through in her glassy eyes and monotone rendition of her story. And yes, to be sure, there was no warmth to it, IMO.
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I´m absolutely convinced that Lureen knows more than it seems,that she´s hiding some other questions about Jack´s death to Ennis;as I said in a post in this same page,perhaps she felt angry because their marriage didn´t already work,or because ske knew Jack was going to quit her,or even because she suspected something about her husband´s other life.Or maybe because of all these situations,she choose close her eyes to what was going to happen to Jack,with her father´s "help" or not.I have always thought that she speaks in a rather despective way about a husband that has just died,don´t you feel so?,and tears only appears in her eyes when Ennis confirms her that BBM does exist ,confirming also somehow that he was her rival in Jack´s heart.One must suspect about her...
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She knew who Ennis was the "fishing buddy" . She was cold as ice in my opinion. Did'nt inquire as to how or when Ennis found out about Jack's death. He might have been Jack's good friend, he's definitly not hers. She was married to Jack for quite some time, Imo she became supicious of Jack,(" husbands never wanna dance with their wives" why is that Jack?) Jack replies " never give it any thought" Maybe he should've. She was cold towards Jack's best friend and I don't trust her story and the way she told it. I feel she knew alot more. The old man LD, (probably dead at this point), was gonna pay Jack to disappear. Jack ran it by Ennis in the reunion scene. So he had'nt taken the money yet, but did she know about this business? 20 years is a long time. Maybe Jack let something slip. Long time wives and lovers know the subtleties. My theory.
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I certainly think that Lureen intentionally hid something. But more importantly, I think that it was only after Lureen spoke to Ennis that she finally got the full picture of who Jack really was. I think this realization came to her when Ennis confessed being together in BBM in 63 -- she tried to hide this realization. It probably disturbed her deeply as much as it opened her eyes to Jack's identity.
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I certainly think that Lureen intentionally hid something. But more importantly, I think that it was only after Lureen spoke to Ennis that she finally got the full picture of who Jack really was. I think this realization came to her when Ennis confessed being together in BBM in 63 -- she tried to hide this realization. It probably disturbed her deeply as much as it opened her eyes to Jack's identity.
Of course,tpe,as I said in my former post,it´s clear that Lureen knows all about her husband after Ennis confirmed her that BBM exist,that it wasn´t a product of Jack´s fantasy.The tears that appear in her eyes are for me the confirmation that she realised that she was speaking with somebody very important in Jack´s life,and perhaps she also realised that more than her...Tears are for love,pain, or hurt pride?.
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Of course,tpe,as I said in my former post,it´s clear that Lureen knows all about her husband after Ennis confirmed her that BBM exist,that it wasn´t a product of Jack´s fantasy.The tears that appear in her eyes are for me the confirmation that she realised that she was speaking with somebody very important in Jack´s life,and perhaps she also realised that more than her...Tears are for love,pain, or hurt pride?.
I think Lureen's tears were for all three purposes. She loved Jack on some level. She hated the thought that he loved someone more than he loved her. And all this hurt her. The thought that her husband had a secret life/love was confirmed now, and that just brought on more pain. I don't think she is heartless. If she were, there would have been no tears, no pain, no love, no hurt pride. You can't hurt someone who doesn't care about you. Jack, or the thought of him, could still hurt Lureen. Thus, the conclusion that there was still a vestigial remain of love somewhere in her.
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To me it seems as both she and Ennis took Jack's love for granted when he lived, but yes, her tears were for her loss, but Jack gave insight into their marriage at least twice and it sounded as if there was not much left of love on either's part after all those years. Jack confided these things to Ennis and apparently his parents. Imo her tears do not dismiss the suspicion that she had more to do with , or knew more about the manner of Jack's death than she let on to Ennis over the phone, I don't think even Ennis believed her either.It's clear that they stayed married till death did the part, but it was Jack who loved Ennis, and wanted to be cremated and ashes sread on BBM, not Childress Texas.
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whenever i watch that scene i am never quite sure if when you see the flash back whether the thought is going through ennis,s mind even though the shot is on him at that moment or its going through laureen,s mind because she does know what happened to jack.
Not sure how jack died. But cant bare to think he was murdered by mindless thugs. :\'(
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whenever i watch that scene i am never quite sure if when you see the flash back whether the thought is going through ennis,s mind even though the shot is on him at that moment or its going through laureen,s mind because she does know what happened to jack.
Not sure how jack died. But cant bare to think he was murdered by mindless thugs. :\'(
The short story is clear, it's going through Ennis's mind, I guess Ang Lee left this open deliberately in the movie.
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I think Lureen's tears were for all three purposes. She loved Jack on some level. She hated the thought that he loved someone more than he loved her. And all this hurt her. The thought that her husband had a secret life/love was confirmed now, and that just brought on more pain. I don't think she is heartless. If she were, there would have been no tears, no pain, no love, no hurt pride. You can't hurt someone who doesn't care about you. Jack, or the thought of him, could still hurt Lureen. Thus, the conclusion that there was still a vestigial remain of love somewhere in her.
I do agree that deep down, there was still that core that fell in love with Jack so long ago, and continued to love him. Even though she was a shell of her former self by then, I do agree that on a certain level, she was not heartless. Her bitterness upon realizing the truth shows this -- one can't get hurt unless at a certain level, one really cared. It wasn't just her pride, I think, that was hurt...
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I was thinking about the way we witness Jack's death through Ennis' mind, not actually through flashback, it is also implied in this shortstory that these are Ennis' views of what might have happened to Jack, not what actually happened. That we never truly know.
What if Jack's death was really just an accident? What is the meaning behind Ennis imagining his Jack was killed?
Does it excuse Ennis' treatment of Jack over 20 years if it means he was right about what happens to "guys like Jack"? Ennis believed if you are known to be gay, you will be killed. He "swears" to Jack in the end, and seems to want to live life in a new way (not missing out on important things, like making his daughter happy by attending her marriage), but it also seems to me that Jack's death could have confirmed his negative beliefs, meaning he will ultimately never allow himself to be who he really is.
Is Ennis' image of Jack's death an excuse for Ennis to continue "living" a life alone and miserable?
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I believe that Jack died by the tire iron and that Ennis felt guilty for not being there for him. I think Ennis was swearing to Jack that he would never forget him, that he always loved him, and that he would keep his memory alive forever. I think he probably would have visited Mrs. Twist and spent time keeping Jack's memory alive possibly visiting BBM many times. :f)
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I believe that Jack died by the tire iron and that Ennis felt guilty for not being there for him. I think Ennis was swearing to Jack that he would never forget him, that he always loved him, and that he would keep his memory alive forever. I think he probably would have visited Mrs. Twist and spent time keeping Jack's memory alive possibly visiting BBM many times. :f)
I believe Jack was killed also(mainly from Lureen's emotions on the phone), but thought it was interesting that we are only allowed to see it through Ennis' eyes, not what happened exactly. I feel like it was true to the fact that only Ennis had ever really "seen" Jack. But I also thought it might be interesting if it was just what Ennis thought happened, like he believed that it would happen that way so much, that it could be the only explanation. But what if it was an accident?
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If you don't mind Jess, I merged the topic you started to this existing one. There are 8 pages of many opinions, enjoy the read. :)
In my case, I guess I already posted this, I think the murder scene is in Ennis mind like suggested in the short story but it doesn't change anything to the fact that Jack die and Ennis loss of his lover.
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If you don't mind Jess, I merged the topic you started to this existing one. There are 8 pages of many opinions, enjoy the read. :)
In my case, I guess I already posted this, I think the murder scene is in Ennis mind like suggested in the short story but it doesn't change anything to the fact that Jack die and Ennis loss of his lover.
Oh cool, thanks so much Cham :^^)
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Jack's death as seen in the mind of Ennis could be reality or could be a mental reflex. After all, this was what Ennis feared all along, and perhaps he projected the possibility into the circumstances of Jack's death.
But there was certainly something incomplete in Lureen's version of Jack's death, as seen in the movie. I have no coubt in my mind that Ang Lee wanted us to think that Jack died the way Ennis imagined it. Lureen certainly seemed to be hiding something, and I think the conversation scene between Ennis and Lureen was a masterpiece of subtlety and suggestion.
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Jack's death as seen in the mind of Ennis could be reality or could be a mental reflex. After all, this was what Ennis feared all along, and perhaps he projected the possibility into the circumstances of Jack's death.
But there was certainly something incomplete in Lureen's version of Jack's death, as seen in the movie. I have no coubt in my mind that Ang Lee wanted us to think that Jack died the way Ennis imagined it. Lureen certainly seemed to be hiding something, and I think the conversation scene between Ennis and Lureen was a masterpiece of subtlety and suggestion.
The way we see Jack's death is rather ambiguous and open to many interpretations,as many other quotes,scenes and images in the movie,and that's one of its greatness...It can be the same a projection of Ennis fears while listening Laureen's explanation than a way of illustrating his real death as a way of proving to the viewer that Lureen was indeed hiding the truth-or,at least,changing it in her own way...-.It's,of course,clear that she knows anything that have could have a great rapport with her husband's death; maybe her father is implied in it and she doesn't mind because she feels disgusted by knowing Jack was willing to leave her.I've always believed that she suspected something that her conversation with Ennis only get to confirm in any way.
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What makes me doubt about if Ennis version is right is that Earl died because of a tire iron, and then those men killed Jack not with a bat, or with a gun, or with an iron bar or whatever, but with a tire iron. Then after Jack's death Ennis dreamed about their time in the mountain and a can of beans, and the "spoon handle was the kind that could be used as a tire iron".
I think Lureen was stunned not because she was not saying the truth, but because it's always hard talking about someone you loved and now is dead. Jack was his husband, no matter that they no longer loved each other. She broke down just when Ennis said to her that BBM was a real place. Maybe she understood that she never really "knew" his husband, that other people knew him better. Or maybe she felt bad saying those things about Jack always dreaming and saying silly things, when he was sharing with her the things he loved. She knew then that she must have given Jack more credit than that.
Well, just MHO. Thanks. ^f^
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Jack's death as seen in the mind of Ennis could be reality or could be a mental reflex. After all, this was what Ennis feared all along, and perhaps he projected the possibility into the circumstances of Jack's death.
But there was certainly something incomplete in Lureen's version of Jack's death, as seen in the movie. I have no coubt in my mind that Ang Lee wanted us to think that Jack died the way Ennis imagined it. Lureen certainly seemed to be hiding something, and I think the conversation scene between Ennis and Lureen was a masterpiece of subtlety and suggestion.
Absolutely, a masterpiece. There is more good acting in that one scene than you can find in many a complete movie. While still leaving some room for doubt, I agree that everything leans towards a violent death for Jack as Ennis envisioned. But it is the UNCERTAINTY that makes this scene so memorable and so sad. Lureen cried for a reason -- whether that was because she really had loved JAck and was regretting his death, or whether she regretted that he was gay and got caught and killed. There will always be an edge of doubt in my mind, but I certainly think Annie wanted that when she wrote the ss, and Ang stayed true to that point: leave it up to the viewer.
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Thanks MPJ, Tammy, and lamusica for your insights.
While I tend to agree withn MPJ and lamusica, I do see Tammy's point. But even this does not exactly run counter to MPJ's and lamusica's comment aboit the uncertainly of it all.
I tend to group Ennis's vision of Jack's death together with the dream sequences in the story. After all, the closing sequence with the spoon and the tire iron does seem to put Ennis's vision as a kind of dream, no? Still, cinematically speaking, Ang Lee's intentions seem to imply such a death for Jack -- be it ever so subtly. Whatever the true nature of Jack's death, Ennis viewed it as some kind of retribution, of which he was partly to blame.
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Just following the conversations here but to me there's something about her explaination that just does'nt sit right with me. Ennis did'nt believe her. Niether do I. First of all she coud have contacted Ennis through the address on the postcard about Pine Creek. Jack used to mention Ennis to her and she had to know that after 20 years of "fishing" trips" by her husband with Ennis, she knew this was not just any friend, and this was one address Jack did'nt keep in his head. There was corresponence through postcards from Ennis coming to the home. ( unless Jack used a post office box unbeKnownst to her). She claimed she did'nt know where Brokeback Mt. was, yet she had to have some correspondence with Mr or Mrs. Twist who definitly knew it was a real place. Jack had told her, she wanted the ashes spread there and she just did'nt bother with the details of the matter. There was too much resentment towards Ennis in her voice, and too many *unecessay* detail of his injuries when he died. ( broken nose and jaw...etc as if this speech had been rehearsed imo.) I just did'nt believe her story. Think she knew way more than she was saying. I think she found out Jack's secret and that she knew Jack was gonna leave her. Imo she may have loved him at one time, but finding out her marriage was a lie may have drove her to desperate measures. Maybe she did something rash.She's sure his parents was appreciate it if Jack's wishes where carried out, " about the ashes I mean" ...well what other wishes did Jack tell her about? Would she appreciate it as well? Hmmmm. She hangs up on Ennis without saying goodbye? Appeared to have no sympathy for him. Sorry,Ennis was the only one seeking to have Jack's wishes carried out, the only one.I'm Still not buying it.
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There was too much resentment towards Ennis in her voice, and too many *unecessay* detail of his injuries when he died. ( broken nose and jaw...etc as if this speech had been rehearsed imo.)
........... Imo she may have loved him at one time,
..................She's sure his parents was appreciate it if Jack's wishes where carried out, " about the ashes I mean" ...well what other wishes did Jack tell her about?
I agree, I thought Anne Hathaway played Lureen perfectly in this scene, I definitely felt the explanation was rehearsed.
I also do believe she loved Jack at one time...maybe even still...
I think she knew though, that he wasn't happy with her, I think that's what she meant by "his wishes carried out...about the ashes I mean" She knew he true wishes in life were never fulfilled with her.
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As far as how Jack died, we are really in one area that both the film and the SS wanted us to leave it open, and all the people involved said so.
In this case, then, speculation is maddening, because we could come up with a most probable version, and yet, their intent was to confirm nothing.
For me, the most probable version was that Jack was playing both LaShawn AND her husband, the latter also being the one Jack tilted towards and wanted to bring to Lightning Flat. That would be the key. In making the decision to end the phony marriage to LaShawn, the cat was out of the bag, and so Jack was murdered by a group of thugs hired by Lureen's father (and the blurred scene would then be nearly accurate), or by LaShawn's husband, as it all fell apart. But there probably was a murder and a cover-up. Still, for various reasons, the question was meant to never be settled.
As for Lureen knowing, Anne Hathaway was asked on "The View" or "Oprah" whether she played the scene as her knowing of Ennis and Jack. She was reluctant to say but finally admitted she played it as knowing of the relationship. Here again, the actors contributed to the final version by their own interpretations. Even so, as I saw the scene, she knew 99%, and Ennis call made it 100% and it broke her heart, bitch that she was, because she really did love Jack. Strangely enough, she did not seem to be bitter it was another man, but that she never had his full love (not that she deserved it). The main contribution I could make here, then, is that, in the film, the actors interpretations, on their own, with no instructions from Ang Lee, entered into what was to become the very final version of BBM.
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For me, the most probable version was that Jack was playing both LaShawn AND her husband, the latter also being the one Jack tilted towards and wanted to bring to Lightning Flat. That would be the key. In making the decision to end the phony marriage to LaShawn, the cat was out of the bag, and so Jack was murdered by a group of thugs hired by Lureen's father (and the blurred scene would then be nearly accurate), or by LaShawn's husband, as it all fell apart. But there probably was a murder and a cover-up. Still, for various reasons, the question was meant to never be settled.
Wow, interesting theories...I never imagined Jack wanting Lashawn though, I felt he just said that 'cause Ennis would accept "another woman". Never thought about Lureen's dad having anything to do with it either, interesting.
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As far as how Jack died, we are really in one area that both the film and the SS wanted us to leave it open, and all the people involved said so.
In this case, then, speculation is maddening, because we could come up with a most probable version, and yet, their intent was to confirm nothing.
For me, the most probable version was that Jack was playing both LaShawn AND her husband, the latter also being the one Jack tilted towards and wanted to bring to Lightning Flat. That would be the key. In making the decision to end the phony marriage to LaShawn, the cat was out of the bag, and so Jack was murdered by a group of thugs hired by Lureen's father (and the blurred scene would then be nearly accurate), or by LaShawn's husband, as it all fell apart. But there probably was a murder and a cover-up. Still, for various reasons, the question was meant to never be settled.
Well, friend I'm confused here. In the SS Annie tells us that LD (Lureen's father) was dead when Ennis and Jack had their last argument. Because of that I never thought that he hired Jack's killers. I don't know if in the film LD was dead too...
Down in Texas Jack’s father-in-law died and Lureen, who inherited the farm-equipment business, showed a skill for management and hard deals.
About Randall....well, Jack was gonna bring him to LF and live with him, and he was gay and he had a sexual relationship with Jack for almost 4 or 5 years (like the OS says) so I don't think he had reasons to kill Jack. Ang filmed a scene (deleted now) where some mechanics men saw Randall was with Jack in Jack's truck on a road. So those men had nothing to do with Randall....And even Randall could be in danger too.
And about Jack being with Lashawn, I have to admit I thought about it, because Annie told us in the SS that Jack didn't say the truth to Ennis when he said that he had not been with other men during the 4 years they were apart, when in fact he was riding more than bulls. But Annie didn't say that Jack was not saying the truth when he said that he was having sex with the wife of a rancher. Maybe the rancher Jack wanted to bring to LF was not the same who was married with the woman Jack was with. Who knows? But I'm talking about the SS not the film. So I don't know. Maybe I'm sooooooo wrong. I'm just rambling.
Love, friend. :^^)
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Hi, Baby Tammy - as usual, I was working from the film, not the SS, and, yes, in the SS, LD was dead. We don't like to admit it, but the whole of BBM evolved towards the final version, and there, even the actors changed things. At one point, Jake said he was playing Jack as a straight guy, but he retreated under pressure.
I do think it is very significant how the actors, by interpreting their roles, became more than mere players following a script, but joined into the co-creation of the final version. We can jump around all we want, from SS to screenplay, to working screenplay, to editing, but there IS a final version.
And there again, where there are missing scenes, that, too, points to something Ang Lee did NOT want in that final version and so therefore tells us something. That they were filmed is of interest. That they were left out, tells us so very much more.
All of what I said was speculation, but, given the open territory they deliberately left us, it does come to mind that when Jack talked Randall into leaving his wife and going to Lightning Flat, effectively, they "outted" themselves. Which does leave the possibility LD freaked (and he did have the resources to rustle up some thugs), that Randall found out Jack was ALSO boinging his wife, and either of these could have led to murder. It was deliberate for the creators of the film to give no final answer, so there never will be one. But at the very least, there was more the suggestion of SOME kind of murder and cover-up, rather than the very lame tale of a bizarre, freakish accident. And poor Ennis was left, like us, to interpret it his own way.
Baby Tammy, we've got to stop meeting like this. People are beginning to talk. How can we elope and flee to Lithuania, if they piece together the clues? We gotta be more discreet. ::)
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I agree, I thought Anne Hathaway played Lureen perfectly in this scene, I definitely felt the explanation was rehearsed.
I also do believe she loved Jack at one time...maybe even still...
I think she knew though, that he wasn't happy with her, I think that's what she meant by "his wishes carried out...about the ashes I mean" She knew he true wishes in life were never fulfilled with her.
I think it was one of the great acting scenes in the movie. It was magnificent.
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Very interesting exhange here, Tony and Tammy! Thanks to both of you.
About the question to Hathaway at the Oprah interview...
Tony, it has been a while since I had seen the Oprah interview, but I do remember Oprah asking Hathaway about the scene: did she know? She seemed most reluctant to answer the question , adn I am not sure if she really admitted it point-blank. But I tend to think that she did, in a way. I think the audience did too.
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It's been a while since I've watched the Oprah interview too but if memory serves, when Anne was asked the question she said something like "I thought it was obvious". But like I said, it's been a long time since I've watched it.
I loved reading all of the exchanges- I'm in the murdered camp. But I don't think it was some set up by Lureen or anyone else. I just think Jack was found out and the "fine people" of Childress were not going to tolerate that in their town. >:(
Even so, as I saw the scene, she knew 99%, and Ennis call made it 100% and it broke her heart,
That's how I feel- she had some suspicions/confirmation that Jack was gay and Ennis's call wiped away any chance for denial on her part. Finding out your whole life wasn't what you thought is certainly not an easy thing. Part of me debates on Lureen's telling Ennis that Jack's parents had half of the ashes- sometimes I think it was an act of generosity on her part because she didn't owe him two seconds of her time or more information than he was seeking. And other times I think she was just setting him up for more hurt because she had to know how Jack's father was and that Ennis would get shot down; I'm sure at some point Jack would have mentioned how the old man was. It just bothers me that she made no attempt to carry out his wishes- she did what she pleased and kept him split between Texas and Wyoming.
I don't think there is meant to be a resolution as to how he died. We truly become Ennis here, IMO. We just don't know and never will. On the one hand it does seem to be "convenient" to have Jack murdered the way Ennis always feared but then again he spent almost his entire life being afraid of the tire iron so it is logical that that would be the weapon he imagines. I think Lureen's story was just too rehearsed and as aintfoolin' said she would have known Ennis's name- how could she not? I know I've said this in the past and in other similar threads but I think that after that last meeting, when Jack finally realized/accepted that BBM really was a one shot thing (in terms of freedom to love each other), that he got reckless. Maybe he picked a fight with the wrong person, maybe he was outed, but I think finding out after all that time that they’d never got much farther than that was devestating to him, maybe the door closing on his dream and he had nothing left to cling to.
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Baby Tammy, we've got to stop meeting like this. People are beginning to talk. How can we elope and flee to Lithuania, if they piece together the clues? We gotta be more discreet. ::)
;D ;D ;D :^^) :^^) :^^)
I know I've said this in the past and in other similar threads but I think that after that last meeting, when Jack finally realized/accepted that BBM really was a one shot thing (in terms of freedom to love each other), that he got reckless. Maybe he picked a fight with the wrong person, maybe he was outed, but I think finding out after all that time that they’d never got much farther than that was devestating to him, maybe the door closing on his dream and he had nothing left to cling to.
:\'( :\'( That's so sad Michelle. But on the other hand I'm so happy because you're here again!!! Missed your posts!!! ^f^ :ghug:
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Well, something gets me thinking here. If Jack was murdered it’s like saying: “Ok, then, Ennis was RIGHT THE WHOLE TIME!!! Jack dreams were stupid, crazy, dangerous and useless. Living like you want, loving like you need means that you’re gonna die, no matter what. You can NOT be happy and be free if you’re gay, so you know, being gay is wrong.”
If Jack really was murdered, how can we think and hope that Ennis, after find the shirts, had been different towards their relationship when he just took the confirmation of his theory? Oooouuuchhhh, my shit English!!! ::) ::) Sorry. What I’m trying to say is that we all think that Ennis had learned the lesson and he was going to live his life differently. But how we can hope that Ennis be in peace with himself if he just knows now that he was right and being with another man leads you to death?
Maybe if Jack died in an accident we can learn that we have to fight to get what we need, without fears, without doubts, because not always there are tire irons out there waiting for us. We can see Ennis regret for not believe in it before. The film shows us that we can not live afraid. Life is so short. Love is right no matter what your sex is. But if Jack was really murdered, well, that only shows that you better don’t be yourself and don’t try to live your dream like Jack tried, because you are gonna end like Jack…
I know, this makes no sense, and I know you all are gonna kick my ass for this lame post. But I’ve spent the last two years crying my eyes out, day after day, because I always thought that Jack was murdered, and I can not stand this pain and sadness anymore. So since two months ago I’ve decided that Jack died in an accident, and I’m trying to believe in this with all my strength, because with it maybe I’ll find so peace at last. I don’t wanna think Jack was murdered, I don’t!!! So I keep talking about my new theory about his accident, trying to prove something, because I don’t want to believe in your posts, I just can’t right now. It hurts so much. :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
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:ghug: Tammy. I think at the end of the day it doesn't matter how Jack died, he is gone. Jack could've gotten into an accident and died while driving to/from one of their trips or choked or lots of other things could've caused his death and I think it's just the fact that Jack is gone that propels Ennis forward a bit. Do I think if Jack was murdered that Ennis thought he was right to keep Jack at bay all of those years? No. I think when he received that post card and then ultimately found the shirts that he realized there were worse things than tire irons in this world- and one was regret. Regret for not taking that chance to have a life together- even if it got them both killed. I think he would've faced an army of tire irons to have a chance to ranch up with Jack after getting the card/finding the shirts. I always see him finding the shirts as a confirmation of love and a guiding hand from Jack- one last I love you in a sense but I also see it as that moment in which Ennis realized there is a fate worse than death. Living with the would'ves and could'ves and should'ves. He had no more control over the realtionship and it's terms. I think that's why he first tells Junior that he can't go to her wedding and then he relents- he's already pushed away one person whom he dearly loved and learned the hard way that we're not always promised next time. Look at how he called Lureen and then went to the Twist ranch- he outed himself to some degree and that showed a lot of growth and innder strength on his part. So he did learn a lesson, at least imo. It was too late for him in terms of Jack but not with his daughters and if something good came out of Jack's death it was that.
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Baby Tammy, it's not a lame post, and the creators of BBM very definitely wanted this one issue left open. So feel free, and justified, in looking at that version- accident. Strangely enough, I have read of a similar accident, locally, so it's not impossible.
But you got me to thinking - what if Ennis WAS right: being gay can be a death sentence. I'd have to say, there IS danger to being a gay person.
Yet, life being what it is, those tire irons are out there waiting for all kinds of people. Life is dangerous for a convenience store clerk, for celebrities, for politicians, for police officers, for women walking alone.... I guess the real sadness is past even Ennis' fears: we all live in a very troubled world.
I don't think Ennis' fears were irrational, even if stemming from what he saw as a child. But the film and SS left the actual cause of death very open to interpretation, so you need not apologize. Love, Tony.
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BT,
I have said in other posts that I have not been able to watch ( Ennis's version ) of Jack's death. and that's it ...someone's vision or version of it. It's very disturbing and sensesless. It stayed with me for along time after the first time I watched so I just skip that scene. Anything else is left to speculation because we are not privy to his actual death. It's a book of *conspiracy theories because we don't know the truth.
Ennis chooses to believe this from his own fear. His personal worst/case scenario.This is what he feared the most. I was sittin there watching this film for the firsr time NOT expecting Jack to die. He was so full of life throughout the film. Flower Child is right , and so is Tony. It's a dangerous world out there. Especially for openly gay men in rural areas then and now. Death can be lurking anywhere, and I do think Jack knew those dangers. He respected Ennis by keeping it all on the down low like he needed it to be . Met out in the middle of nowhere cause Ennis wanted /needed it that way . So did he. Life can be found also and Jack chose to hope, dream , and live, his love , givin from his heart in spite of the danger. inspite of being in love with Ennis, his handsome cowboy. I feel this is another thing Ennis realized as he hugged the shirts. He only knows one thing at that moment, it is better to be with Jack than without him and that had he been there like Jack wanted, Jack would still be alive. He finds he was wrong
No one can fault you for having your own version of it. Tony's right, The writers left this open for that purpose. He is gone, did we see what actually happened? No. It's all in what you percieve it to be. The ending is there for us, the viewer to interpret...anyway we want. I just don't believe farmboy , rodeo ridin ,travelin , Jack Twist did'nt know how to change a tire without gettin killed.
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Michelle, Tony and AF, thank you so much for your words!! I needed them. ^f^ :ghug: :^^)
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I found it interesting that Ennis asked Lureen if Jack was " buried down there" , wants to know where the ashes are. Lureen tells him they put a stone up and the ashes were divided between her and Jack's parents.
Some time passed before Ennis even knew of Jack's death. Ennis was stunned .Jack's parents knew their son was gay and knew of Ennis Del Mar. Ennis finds that Jack had talked about him, but Ennis really did'nt know to what degree.
Jack's father also knew Jack wanted the ashes scatterd on Brokeback. He knew where Brokeback Mt was, for sure. Just something about the way he said that.(" thought he was to g-ddamned special to be buried in the family plot") Ennis comes to Lightning Flat at Lureen's suggestion to see that Jack's wishes were carried out...." about the ashes I mean", like Lureen said. Sounds to me like there's something going on between Mr. Twist and Lureen. I know I can be a conspiracy theorist but,
Just a few interesting points imo. Some speculation, but...well, I think Lureen knew about Jack and Ennis.
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That was interesting, Aintfoolin, and got me to wondering along another line. I agree with you, Lureen knew the Twists fairly well, as in-laws, and maybe the father more. But now I wonder....did Lureen know how Jack actually died? She told Ennis in sort of a sing-song rehearsed way. And, of course, if scandal was involved, would gladly go along with a cover-up, to keep her son clear of taunting. But going further, if SHE knew it was murder, then would the Twists have known, also?
This is all way, way into speculation, but it's not as if we don't do that, as we see fit. And Aintfoolin, you found it unlikely anyone with Jack's background would have a deadly mistake changing a tire. Now, I wonder if Old Man Twist could have resisted making remarks about Jack's ineptness, if he actually believed that was the cause of death. And we don't hear the Mom saying anything about the unique tragedy. On the contrary, she behaves as would a woman who knew her son was repeatedly talking about pairing up with a male, and then heard sudden and unlikely information as to cause of death. I don't recall anyone ever going this far into speculating, in this general area, but, I guess some booby had to do it and....I was available. Both mother and father seemed unusually quiet about the death itself.
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That was interesting, Aintfoolin, and got me to wondering along another line. I agree with you, Lureen knew the Twists fairly well, as in-laws, and maybe the father more. But now I wonder....did Lureen know how Jack actually died? She told Ennis in sort of a sing-song rehearsed way. And, of course, if scandal was involved, would gladly go along with a cover-up, to keep her son clear of taunting. But going further, if SHE knew it was murder, then would the Twists have known, also?
This is all way, way into speculation, but it's not as if we don't do that, as we see fit. And Aintfoolin, you found it unlikely anyone with Jack's background would have a deadly mistake changing a tire. Now, I wonder if Old Man Twist could have resisted making remarks about Jack's ineptness, if he actually believed that was the cause of death. And we don't hear the Mom saying anything about the unique tragedy. On the contrary, she behaves as would a woman who knew her son was repeatedly talking about pairing up with a male, and then heard sudden and unlikely information as to cause of death. I don't recall anyone ever going this far into speculating, in this general area, but, I guess some booby had to do it and....I was available. Both mother and father seemed unusually quiet about the death itself.
hmm thats intresting i think lureen knew the truth but jacks parents i hadnt really thought much about that your evidence seems to support that though...
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Thanx Tony, I agree. Having the mystery surrounding Jack's death left open like this invites much speculation.., We could easily put "in all likelyhood" in front of our own personal perspectives basing it on the info we do have.
In my opinion, Lureen is the key. She would have first hand info concerning the circumstances of Jack's death. She could share that info with whomever she pleased. There had to be some form of communication between Her and Jack's parents for them to end up with half the ashes. *Arrangements* were made long before Ennis even knew of the death of Jack. She directed Ennis there for answers. He was was met with humiliation from Mr. Twist,but Mrs. Twist seemed to search for answers from Ennis herself. She only had Lureen's story to go on apparently.
There was no mention of any services held and Lurren did'nt say anything about the parents traveling to Texas to attend any memorials. A stone was put up in Texas and arrangements were made for the grieving parents to recieve half the ashes. That's it. Period.
Seems to me no real attempts were made to contact any one outside Childress except the parents. " Jack kept all his friends's addresses in his head". Do we really know this? We still don't know if they ( the parents) believed he was murdered or not, but they were awful quiet as you say Tony, about the manner of their son's death. I'm very suspicious of Mr. Twist with his boastful " I know where Brokeback Mt is". It's almost like he knew the significance of it. Did he and Lureen ever discuss Ennis?
His knowing his son is gay+ several mentions of Ennis Del Mar from Jack himself, + his knowledge of Brokeback , add Jack's untimley death and ya got something he does'nt want to acknowledge and wants to put away from him ASAP!. His refusal to release the ashes to Ennis is part of his on-going battle with Jack against his true nature and lifestyle with Ennis imo. As long as he had the ashes, Jack's lover did'nt and surely he was'nt gonna honor Jack's wishes by having them spread on Brokeback Mt, where Jack and Ennis found love. Ennis was'nt family, so he deserved and got nothing from him.
Jack made his last wishes known while still alive, and everybody, except Ennis ignored that. It all seems so de-personalized to me and that's because imo, someone has something to hide.
If Lureen had something to do with Jack's death, or knew more, she could make up anything. Who'd suspect otherwise, except Ennis? I don't think she expected Ennis to call. When he did, she did'nt seem to sympathetic over Jack's best friend's feelings. In fact, she resented him. It's indeed speculation on our part, but who'd question the *greiving *widow? How did Jack die? We don't actually know, but we can guess. right?
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Yeah, Aintfoolin, that sure was spite on Old Man Twist's part to deny Ennis the ashes. He had to have known Ennis was Jack's one love, with those many years of Jack talking of bringing Ennis there to fix the place up and the two of them live together. "Ennis Del Mar...he used to say..". And he was definitely twisting the knife by telling Ennis Jack had found another man to bring there. Oh, yeah, he knew.
But we can also tell that Jack had reached a point where he didn't give a damn what his father thought. As the father grew older, and couldn't take care of the place himself, he knew he needed even Jack's regular visits, which were work visits, doing what he could for his parents. And lost his power base.
It's also posible there was a grudging love between the two. We really don't see homophobia in the old man so much as resentment of Jack's being a dreamer and having such a strong life force. Something the father may once have wanted for himself but could not have. In fact, in the scenes with him and Ennis, we see an old man full of resentment, but seemingly not directly critical of Jack's clear preference for bringing a male there, to live with.
One thing we do know - he knew about Ennis and was not going to let him have his son's ashes. Old Man Twist may well have been a rare breed-rodeo cowboy when young, bitter old man when life left him no longer able to rule the roost.
Something else. He saw the shirts. He showed no curiosity, nor surprise. Is that normal for a guest to take away a dead son's clothing? I think the mother and father had long before come to terms with Jack's love, of whatever kind it was, for Ennis, and as was the custom in those parts, said little, and knew most all.
They all had secrets. And how Jack died would also have been one of them, that they knew.
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Yeah, Aintfoolin, that sure was spite on Old Man Twist's part to deny Ennis the ashes. He had to have known Ennis was Jack's one love, with those many years of Jack talking of bringing Ennis there to fix the place up and the two of them live together. "Ennis Del Mar...he used to say..". And he was definitely twisting the knife by telling Ennis Jack had found another man to bring there. Oh, yeah, he knew.
But we can also tell that Jack had reached a point where he didn't give a damn what his father thought. As the father grew older, and couldn't take care of the place himself, he knew he needed even Jack's regular visits, which were work visits, doing what he could for his parents. And lost his power base.
It's also posible there was a grudging love between the two. We really don't see homophobia in the old man so much as resentment of Jack's being a dreamer and having such a strong life force. Something the father may once have wanted for himself but could not have. In fact, in the scenes with him and Ennis, we see an old man full of resentment, but seemingly not directly critical of Jack's clear preference for bringing a male there, to live with.
One thing we do know - he knew about Ennis and was not going to let him have his son's ashes. Old Man Twist may well have been a rare breed-rodeo cowboy when young, bitter old man when life left him no longer able to rule the roost.
Something else. He saw the shirts. He showed no curiosity, nor surprise. Is that normal for a guest to take away a dead son's clothing? I think the mother and father had long before come to terms with Jack's love, of whatever kind it was, for Ennis, and as was the custom in those parts, said little, and knew most all.
They all had secrets. And how Jack died would also have been one of them, that they knew.
Thanx Tony , another excellent post from you . I always love them because you tend to make me either see things more clearly or in a different way and I appreciate that. Some of these characters are very complicated male and female., for instance the old man was indeed bitter, very bitter towards Jack. I can definitly see it as resentment from not realizing his own dreams whatever they may have been, gave himself away by saying Jack thought he was "too special" to rest in the family plot. Nah, truth is, HE thought Jack thought that. but why would he abuse his own child the way he did in the ss. His resentment of Jack may have started earlier than we thought,but I do agree with you that deep down inside, even he had some love for Jack somewhere, though he had a funny way of showing it.
When Jack died, he came face to face with what his resentment of who his son was. Yes, I'm saying he knew Jack was gay, knew his son wasn't bringing home pretty young girls to build a life with, but his choice was bringing home men to build a cabin and live with., Ennis, then Randall. and here was Ennis, living proof in his kitchen. Never drew a shotgun on either boys, Jack, or Ennis that we know of, but allowed both into his home, but I bet when he got riled, he had a few choice words for his gay son and Ennis. Maybe I did'nt see homophobia, but I did see frustration, bitterness and yes ,some disgust. When Jack died, I feel he felt bitter and resentmentful at Jack and Ennis but maybe a large part of it was, resentment towards himself too for so long not being able to accept his own son and his own life failures.. For all his attempts to break Jack, Jack was'nt him or like him and never became him ,though Jack turned to achohol abuse to deal with rejection. Perhaps a silent, understood , cautious, truce was reached between them over the years. Maybe they had * the talk* , you know the one I mean where between older father and older son, everything is said, yet not one complete sentence is uttered between them? It's just understood how one another feels. Who knows?, but Jack never forgot how to show unconditional love. He still went back to help him out with the ranch, but Can't say the same for the old man.
Several people knew about the *secret* including Lureen imo, but no one was gonna say anything to the point out loud. A woman does'nt stay married to a man for 20 years and never suspect his sexuality with these goings on. Believe me , I've personally been that route before. She knew.
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i think it was pretty obviosue that when Ennis spoke to lureen that she knew exactly what the deal was and had for some time IMO, she had that tone in her voice...
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Jack made his last wishes known while still alive, and everybody, except Ennis ignored that.
And everybody knew about Jack wishes when he was alive except Ennis.....
Something else. He saw the shirts. He showed no curiosity, nor surprise. Is that normal for a guest to take away a dead son's clothing?
I always wonder why OMT and Mama T didn't say anything when Ennis took the shirts....I think most of the parents would let old close friends take something from their son....but I think they would ask before what that is and why that...or something like that.
I keep thinking Lureen was sad for his husband and she was bitter too because she knew that Ennis knew Jack better than her, knowing that BBM was a real place, and realizing that Jack's favorite place was the place where Ennis and he met.
I think that T parents were so quiet because some months passed before Ennis came, so they were more quiet, having accepted the lost already. I think Jack's mom was always a quiet person; having a husband so dominant and cruel she probably couldn't speak too much in that house and say the things she really wanted....And about OMT, I think he was quiet because of the time and because he was a man of a few words, so bitter and ironic to make a real proper comment about his son death. Tony said that he would have said something about Jack being so stupid to die in an accident like that. But I think he that was no necessary because he didn't knew Ennis so he didn't knew if Ennis would have reacted bad, and Mama T was there and maybe that would have been too much and she would have said something. Besides, he already laughed at his son saying that Jack thought he was too special......
I know that they or at least she knew about her son.....but why everybody think that they all knew (Lureen, OMT and Mama) that Ennis was Jack's love just simply because they were friends for 20 years? I met my best friend 18 years ago. We are one, believe me. We share everything and she even said to my family and friends that if she was a man she would love me, and that she loves me more than his boyfriend or any man...And no one think we are lovers. Yeah, Jack said that he was gonna bring a man, but my friend and I have grown saying that we are gonna live together no matter what and not even men are gonna stop that....
I know I'm rambling here.....but I wanted to say that. I hope that makes some sense. ::)
AF, I know what you think about Lureen knowing and I agree....but I have a friend who was married for 32 years and she never knew that his husband had another family and another house....wife and girls..... And the SS said that Lureen was so occupied with business that she never took care of what Jack was doing...because she had noticed how much money Jack spent in his trips (not with Ennis only), like the SS said Jack did.
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great post tammy :)
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Jack must have brought the shirts home after the first summer on Brokeback and I don't see him taking them on the rodeo circuit, so they must have been in his room ever since. No way that his mother wouldn't know that one of the shirts wasn't his; she must have been the one who ironed the ones he owned. So she had to know that one belonged to another man, and why would it be kept unless it had some special significance to Jack? So she must have known, or at least guessed, that Jack was gay. Then again he never apparently brought any girls home; when he married Lureen it was far away and there's no indication that his parents and his wife ever met.
When they got the news that he was dead, in an accident if Lureen told them the same as she told Ennis,would they accept that he had died in such a fashion? Or did mother, and even father, possibly suspect that he had been the victim of homophobes? If so, what could they do? They were too far away to ask questions, and probably wouldn't have got far if they had done. So did his mother just accept it as another in a string of unhappy experiences? And did the old man in his bitter fashion think that it served Jack right for being queer? He certainly appears to loathe and resent Ennis when he appears.
In the end they know very little about Jack's death. We don't either and can only speculate.
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Jack must have brought the shirts home after the first summer on Brokeback and I don't see him taking them on the rodeo circuit, so they must have been in his room ever since. No way that his mother wouldn't know that one of the shirts wasn't his; she must have been the one who ironed the ones he owned. So she had to know that one belonged to another man, and why would it be kept unless it had some special significance to Jack? So she must have known, or at least guessed, that Jack was gay. Then again he never apparently brought any girls home; when he married Lureen it was far away and there's no indication that his parents and his wife ever met.
When they got the news that he was dead, in an accident if Lureen told them the same as she told Ennis,would they accept that he had died in such a fashion? Or did mother, and even father, possibly suspect that he had been the victim of homophobes? If so, what could they do? They were too far away to ask questions, and probably wouldn't have got far if they had done. So did his mother just accept it as another in a string of unhappy experiences? And did the old man in his bitter fashion think that it served Jack right for being queer? He certainly appears to loathe and resent Ennis when he appears.
In the end they know very little about Jack's death. We don't either and can only speculate.
expanding on what you said about how jacks mother would have known that ennis' shirt was not jacks she must have also realised there was some nostalga going along with it... i mean why else would jack leave them blood stained would he not try to wash them or throw them out im pretty sure she would have known... but as for his father well i dont think his father would check the closet so he may never have really seen the shirts but i thought it was pretty clear by the way he talked to Ennis that he knew... JMO
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es, I think you're right. I'd have expected any mother, specially one in a household where money wasn't plentiful, to want to try to wash a perfectly serviceable shirt so that it could be worn again, might even have suggested to Jack that she did - surely his response would have given her a clue that the shirts were more than just two shirts?
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es, I think you're right. I'd have expected any mother, specially one in a household where money wasn't plentiful, to want to try to wash a perfectly serviceable shirt so that it could be worn again, might even have suggested to Jack that she did - surely his response would have given her a clue that the shirts were more than just two shirts?
yes, i mean i think she would have known instantly if she'd asked him i can imagine his response, i dont think she would question him though, IMO she would jsut let him get on with it.
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Well, something gets me thinking here. If Jack was murdered it’s like saying: “Ok, then, Ennis was RIGHT THE WHOLE TIME!!! Jack dreams were stupid, crazy, dangerous and useless. Living like you want, loving like you need means that you’re gonna die, no matter what. You can NOT be happy and be free if you’re gay, so you know, being gay is wrong.”
If Jack really was murdered, how can we think and hope that Ennis, after find the shirts, had been different towards their relationship when he just took the confirmation of his theory? Oooouuuchhhh, my shit English!!! ::) ::) Sorry. What I’m trying to say is that we all think that Ennis had learned the lesson and he was going to live his life differently. But how we can hope that Ennis be in peace with himself if he just knows now that he was right and being with another man leads you to death?
Maybe if Jack died in an accident we can learn that we have to fight to get what we need, without fears, without doubts, because not always there are tire irons out there waiting for us. We can see Ennis regret for not believe in it before. The film shows us that we can not live afraid. Life is so short. Love is right no matter what your sex is. But if Jack was really murdered, well, that only shows that you better don’t be yourself and don’t try to live your dream like Jack tried, because you are gonna end like Jack…
I know, this makes no sense, and I know you all are gonna kick my ass for this lame post. But I’ve spent the last two years crying my eyes out, day after day, because I always thought that Jack was murdered, and I can not stand this pain and sadness anymore. So since two months ago I’ve decided that Jack died in an accident, and I’m trying to believe in this with all my strength, because with it maybe I’ll find so peace at last. I don’t wanna think Jack was murdered, I don’t!!! So I keep talking about my new theory about his accident, trying to prove something, because I don’t want to believe in your posts, I just can’t right now. It hurts so much. :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
Well, it was discussed that the way Ennis envisioned Jack's death may have been a confirmation of his worst fears, and that this was what he feared in the first place. For some of us who think that Ennis refused to live with Jack because he feared for the safety of both of them, Jack's death could affirmed those fears and may have led Ennis to his subsequent withdrawal from society and his family...
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Jack must have brought the shirts home after the first summer on Brokeback and I don't see him taking them on the rodeo circuit, so they must have been in his room ever since. No way that his mother wouldn't know that one of the shirts wasn't his; she must have been the one who ironed the ones he owned. So she had to know that one belonged to another man, and why would it be kept unless it had some special significance to Jack? So she must have known, or at least guessed, that Jack was gay. Then again he never apparently brought any girls home; when he married Lureen it was far away and there's no indication that his parents and his wife ever met.
When they got the news that he was dead, in an accident if Lureen told them the same as she told Ennis,would they accept that he had died in such a fashion? Or did mother, and even father, possibly suspect that he had been the victim of homophobes? If so, what could they do? They were too far away to ask questions, and probably wouldn't have got far if they had done. So did his mother just accept it as another in a string of unhappy experiences? And did the old man in his bitter fashion think that it served Jack right for being queer? He certainly appears to loathe and resent Ennis when he appears.
In the end they know very little about Jack's death. We don't either and can only speculate.
But I don't bring men to home, and I keep a lot of personal things from my friends (girls) and I'm straight......So keep something from a friend you are not gonna see again (in first place when they left BBM Jack thought that) is something normal and beautiful, I think.
We didn't see what Lureen said to them or how they reacted so we'll never know...I know that kind of accident are possible. Jack was not good with those things (Ennis repaired his truck), but if he was an expert with that tires thing I think that that is possible too, because when we have done a thing a million times you get too confident and you get distracted. I mean we see every day accidents at work with people that have been doing the same thing for years!!
Maybe he was murdered, but an accident is not a silly idea.
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Well, it was discussed that the way Ennis envisioned Jack's death may have been a confirmation of his worst fears, and that this was what he feared in the first place. For some of us who think that Ennis refused to live with Jack because he feared for the safety of both of them, Jack's death could affirmed those fears and may have led Ennis to his subsequent withdrawal from society and his family...
Agree. So if Jack was live but hurting, if that tire iron didn't kill him but he was in a hospital, had Ennis changed and lived with Jack? Or would he have kept saying no now he got the confirmation of his theory?
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But I don't bring men to home, and I keep a lot of personal things from my friends (girls) and I'm straight......So keep something from a friend you are not gonna see again (in first place when they left BBM Jack thought that) is something normal and beautiful, I think.
We didn't see what Lureen said to them or how they reacted so we'll never know...I know that kind of accident are possible. Jack was not good with those things (Ennis repaired his truck), but if he was an expert with that tires thing I think that that is possible too, because when we have done a thing a million times you get too confident and you get distracted. I mean we see every day accidents at work with people that have been doing the same thing for years!!
Maybe he was murdered, but an accident is not a silly idea.
OK, I've changed tires before. Unless jack had the tire off the truck, or was pumping up a spare, I can't see this happening. If he was "pumping up a flat ON the truck like she said, it's very unlikekly that the rim would just jump off imo. Pumping up a flat , while it's still on the truck without a Jack ,with unsecure lug nuts is unheard of. Either way, Jack had to be bending down pretty low for the rim to hit him in the jaw or nose and break them. Jack was a very tall guy. To be at face level with the rim of the tire he'd have to be almost on his knees. The rim would have hit him in the legs, not the face. Most people stand as they're pumping.The rubber tire may explode, if givin too much air pressure, but the rim would remain secured on the truck with lug nuts connecting the rim firmly to an axle. Her story defies the laws of science imo. Sorry, I do think freak accidents happen, but I still don't buy this. Her whole demeanor was just wrong.
Jackster, where are you when I need ya? You know about these things. Is it possible for a rim to come off a tire while it firmly on the vehicle with lug nuts if and when a tire exploded? I've actually been driving and had tires blow out , but the rim remained on . I've driven on rims alone before, I don't feel they'd come off like Lureen explained. The resentment in her voice to Ennis and at the way Jack kept things from her, way to much detail of injuries, "out on a back road" , "He landed on his back" "he drowned in his own blood" ...too much detail ,and sounding so darned rehearsed spells suspicion to me. . Of course it's all speculation how he died, but this version just did'nt ring true to me. Maybe I'm wrong, but Jack was her no. 1 salesman, she'd have a lot to loose and explain to her son, friends and family , clients, etc, if Jack up and left her for another man. Again, she may have been a hard business woman, and loved her husband at one time, but she had grown bitter towards Jack and his drinking. MO.
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intresting post, AF thanks
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AF, about the details, a lot of them, that Lureen gave Ennis, I think is normal. When my aunt die we explained her illness with sooooooooo much detail to everybody, even using medical names like the ones the doctor used with us.
In fact, every person I know when someone of their family or friends died, they told me EVERYTHING about it, with a lot of details. I read here that someone said that he lived the same situation......that when someone died he told everything about it to everybody.
I think when death comes like that, so suddenly, we have a need to explain it all, like trying to make it more credible, like trying to make it to make sense, like trying to accept it repeating it over and over again. I think Ennis was so stunned about it, finding about Jack months later, so maybe Lureen wanted to explained all to help Ennis to understand and find some sense. Because sometimes we find no sense in some deaths and we need details and things to understand.
I don't know well....And sorry for my English.
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AF, about the details, a lot of them, that Lureen gave Ennis, I think is normal. When my aunt die we explained her illness with sooooooooo much detail to everybody, even using medical names like the ones the doctor used with us.
In fact, every person I know when someone of their family or friends died, they told me EVERYTHING about it, with a lot of details. I read here that someone said that he lived the same situation......that when someone died he told everything about it to everybody.
I think when death comes like that, so suddenly, we have a need to explain it all, like trying to make it more credible, like trying to make it to make sense, like trying to accept it repeating it over and over again. I think Ennis was so stunned about it, finding about Jack months later, so maybe Lureen wanted to explained all to help Ennis to understand and find some sense. Because sometimes we find no sense in some deaths and we need details and things to understand.
I don't know well....And sorry for my English.
your english was fine :), i think what you are meaning by this is that jacks death could have been just an accident, i do agree it could have been but one thing that sticks in my mind to say other wise is that... well in a delteted scene some mechanics see jack and randall and those mechanics are the ones who in Ennis' fear kill him... and in the SS ennis was sure jack had been killed and not in an accident... JMO. but i do accpt it could have been an acident, but in my mind i think it was murder :\'(
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AF, about the details, a lot of them, that Lureen gave Ennis, I think is normal. When my aunt die we explained her illness with sooooooooo much detail to everybody, even using medical names like the ones the doctor used with us.
In fact, every person I know when someone of their family or friends died, they told me EVERYTHING about it, with a lot of details. I read here that someone said that he lived the same situation......that when someone died he told everything about it to everybody.
I think when death comes like that, so suddenly, we have a need to explain it all, like trying to make it more credible, like trying to make it to make sense, like trying to accept it repeating it over and over again. I think Ennis was so stunned about it, finding about Jack months later, so maybe Lureen wanted to explained all to help Ennis to understand and find some sense. Because sometimes we find no sense in some deaths and we need details and things to understand.
I don't know well....And sorry for my English.
Your English is just fine, I understand you clearly. My thing is the way it was presented to Ennis. When Ennis says " that's why I'm calling ,to see what happened" Lureen says " oh yeah", then goes into this this point by point description of how Jack died which was imo a little too neat, too tidy, too rehersed. Of course this may be a results of telling people over and over, the same story, but again, it just did'nt ring true for me. Bu that's my own personal take. No one really can be sure, and I respect your possibility of it being an accident, but I tend to think it was murder. Just an opiion. Thanx.
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Agree. So if Jack was live but hurting, if that tire iron didn't kill him but he was in a hospital, had Ennis changed and lived with Jack? Or would he have kept saying no now he got the confirmation of his theory?
This is an interesting proposition, no? I would like to think that perhaps Ennis would have changed, the way the shirts opened his eyes in the very end. Death or near-death experiences do have the power to destroy doubt and/or strengthen resolve in ways we can't possibly anticipate.
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Agree. So if Jack was live but hurting, if that tire iron didn't kill him but he was in a hospital, had Ennis changed and lived with Jack? Or would he have kept saying no now he got the confirmation of his theory?
This is an interesting proposition, no? I would like to think that perhaps Ennis would have changed, the way the shirts opened his eyes in the very end. Death or near-death experiences do have the power to destroy doubt and/or strengthen resolve in ways we can't possibly anticipate.
It's difficult to give a categorical answer in someone with so deep thoughts of fear and denial as Ennis is...But it's true that an experience that hits you hard inside makes you almost always react in the contrary side you've always maintain.The possibility of losing your loved being in a definitive way often makes people ask themselves about the probability of loosing this person little by little if they keep on behaving the same way.You can loose them,but at least you've got them for a while; closing the doors completely,you don't have anything but emptiness.Why couldn't Ennis react so after a possible Jack's accident?.
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Tammy brings out a very good point. Would it just confirm Ennis worst fears, and would Jack be a sign of that confirmation and he'll stay away from him? It's sad to think that he would be so twisted inside about his fears as to stay away from Jack. Unless he got angry enough not to stand it a more and want to act and protect Jack, keeping him close to him, but also the fear of who he is, and what they are together, is not as great as losing the one person he loved most in the world. It could go either way.
just a thought.
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This is an interesting proposition, no? I would like to think that perhaps Ennis would have changed, the way the shirts opened his eyes in the very end. Death or near-death experiences do have the power to destroy doubt and/or strengthen resolve in ways we can't possibly anticipate.
the wya i see it is that, well Ennis was fearful of people finding out and killing him or jack, maybe if jack had been hospitalised rather then killed by homophobes then Ennis would change and lived with jack, maybe he would figure if people already knew about jack it would be safer that jack was with him where Ennis could protect him the best he could, if people already knew there could be no fear of people finding out, however a factor which may change that would be how much Ennis feared for his own safety, would he be willing to risk his life to live with and protect jack, IMO he would we seen him after Jacks death he was destroyed, i think in someways he would have rather been killed aswell so he could be together with jack... just my ramblings i hope they make some sense...
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Tammy brings out a very good point. Would it just confirm Ennis worst fears, and would Jack be a sign of that confirmation and he'll stay away from him? It's sad to think that he would be so twisted inside about his fears as to stay away from Jack. Unless he got angry enough not to stand it a more and want to act and protect Jack, keeping him close to him, but also the fear of who he is, and what they are together, is not as great as losing the one person he loved most in the world. It could go either way.
just a thought.
I agree MG. Ennis could react in two ways:
1. He can think now that life is so short and precious to live it with fears, that he has to stay with Jack before loosing him forever. He can realize now that he really needs and loves Jack and he should be with him, because you don't know when or how death can catch you, and you can regret of it if you have not spent your life with the one you love because of your fears.
2. Ennis can think now that he was right all the time. Maybe Jack was lucky this time, but maybe he will be not the next time......And now that Ennis really knows how much he loves Jack and how much Jack's death could hurt, he could think that living together is not worth of Jack's death. So maybe he could think that he better stay away from Jack, though it hurt Jack and himself, and being alone, then see Jack hurting again, or worse, dead. After suffering the unbearable pain of almost loosing Jack, Ennis could see that he can NOT risk Jack's life again.
Like MG said I think It could go either way.
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I really believe that Jack was murdered by homophobes. I believe in the end, Ennis realized that they would have been safer together, and that it would have been better to live together even if they were killed, because that way they would have spent more time with each other, than those stolen moments they had once or twice a year in the middle of nowhere. Because if you add it all up, in the course of twenty years, how much time did Ennis and Jack spend together? It was probably about six or seven months total time. Ennis in the end feels cheated by his own self.
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I really believe that Jack was murdered by homophobes. I believe in the end, Ennis realized that they would have been safer together, and that it would have been better to live together even if they were killed, because that way they would have spent more time with each other, than those stolen moments they had once or twice a year in the middle of nowhere. Because if you add it all up, in the course of twenty years, how much time did Ennis and Jack spend together? It was probably about six or seven months total time. Ennis in the end feels cheated by his own self.
I do agree with you,Athena; as it happens almost always,a great slap on your face is what makes you realise what you had and you have lost.So,Ennis could realise that it' d have been better to live together even if homophobia could kill them,than ending killed by this homophobia having denied all the time this possibility.It was as killing themselves little by little during almost 20 years,by ending killed anyway without having lived their great dream.What an enormous and painful contradiction¡. :\'(
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Tammy brings out a very good point. Would it just confirm Ennis worst fears, and would Jack be a sign of that confirmation and he'll stay away from him? It's sad to think that he would be so twisted inside about his fears as to stay away from Jack. Unless he got angry enough not to stand it a more and want to act and protect Jack, keeping him close to him, but also the fear of who he is, and what they are together, is not as great as losing the one person he loved most in the world. It could go either way.
just a thought.
I understand what everyone is getting at in the sense that Ennis' worse fears were realized, but i really don't feel that way because Ennis' fear was that 2 guys living together and being openly gay was Ennis' fear. What was realized in the end was that Jack was hurt anyway, even without living the life he wanted. Yes it can be twisted that he was killed for being gay, but if he was really killed, it was sneaking around, not being open about it, which goes completely against Ennis' theory of it being better/safer to hide.
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I understand what everyone is getting at in the sense that Ennis' worse fears were realized, but i really don't feel that way because Ennis' fear was that 2 guys living together and being openly gay was Ennis' fear. What was realized in the end was that Jack was hurt anyway, even without living the life he wanted. Yes it can be twisted that he was killed for being gay, but if he was really killed, it was sneaking around, not being open about it, which goes completely against Ennis' theory of it being better/safer to hide.
I didn't think about before. But you're so right, Jess. Ennis said that two men living together could kill them, but Jack was not living with anyone and still he got murdered....But I think that someone could say that Jack was not careful the way Ennis could be or think it was better...I don't know, sweetie.
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I understand what everyone is getting at in the sense that Ennis' worse fears were realized, but i really don't feel that way because Ennis' fear was that 2 guys living together and being openly gay was Ennis' fear. What was realized in the end was that Jack was hurt anyway, even without living the life he wanted. Yes it can be twisted that he was killed for being gay, but if he was really killed, it was sneaking around, not being open about it, which goes completely against Ennis' theory of it being better/safer to hide.
At some point Ennis had to ask himself..If the purposes of living apart was to keep he and Jack safe, then why was Jack dead? Ennis has an idea what happened, but we don't really know what happened. It's Ennis's tragedy that in his mind, Jack died just the way he'd feared. It's what made the most logical sense to him.
Was Jack unknowingly lured to his death or are we to believe Lurren's version? What was Jack doing out on some deserted road with four homophobes who happen to have trusty tireirons with them.? We have no mention of police reports or coroner's say. It's any one's guess what actually happened. I suppose it really does'nt matter how Jack died, we all felt Ennis's loss. He learned that had he been with Jack, maybe, just maybe Jack would be still alive.
I think if he could turn back the hands of time, knowing what he now knows, perhaps Jack' dream was'nt so scary after all. He was wrong to think they were safer apart. Jack was left vulnerable to these men because he was not together with Jack to change the circumstances , setting and timing of Jack's murder. He was so content with the status quo that he never saw it coming. He's left with *what if's and *if onlys* as well as the who, what, where, why, and when... just like us. It's so tragic. Jack had been stolen away from him by his own fear. This was his friend and lover for many years. Now there was nothing but emptiness. He could'nt fix this but this had to be the hardest thing to stand. I felt his pain. Thanx
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At some point Ennis had to ask himself..If the purposes of living apart was to keep he and Jack safe, then why was Jack dead? Ennis has an idea what happened, but we don't really know what happened. It's Ennis's tragedy that in his mind, Jack died just the way he'd feared. It's what made the most logical sense to him.
Was Jack unknowingly lured to his death or are we to believe Lurren's version? What was Jack doing out on some deserted road with four homophobes who happen to have trusty tireirons with them.? We have no mention of police reports or coroner's say. It's any one's guess what actually happened. I suppose it really does'nt matter how Jack died, we all felt Ennis's loss. He learned that had he been with Jack, maybe, just maybe Jack would be still alive.
I think if he could turn back the hands of time, knowing what he now knows, perhaps Jack' dream was'nt so scary after all. He was wrong to think they were safer apart. Jack was left vulnerable to these men because he was not together with Jack to change the circumstances , setting and timing of Jack's murder. He was so content with the status quo that he never saw it coming. He's left with *what if's and *if onlys* as well as the who, what, where, why, and when... just like us. It's so tragic. Jack had been stolen away from him by his own fear. This was his friend and lover for many years. Now there was nothing but emptiness. He could'nt fix this but this had to be the hardest thing to stand. I felt his pain. Thanx
Agree, agree, agree. I felt his pain too. Why do you always say all those things I'm thinking? Thanks for this, because I can NOT do it because of my English. :^^)
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the wya i see it is that, well Ennis was fearful of people finding out and killing him or jack, maybe if jack had been hospitalised rather then killed by homophobes then Ennis would change and lived with jack, maybe he would figure if people already knew about jack it would be safer that jack was with him where Ennis could protect him the best he could, if people already knew there could be no fear of people finding out, however a factor which may change that would be how much Ennis feared for his own safety, would he be willing to risk his life to live with and protect jack, IMO he would we seen him after Jacks death he was destroyed, i think in someways he would have rather been killed aswell so he could be together with jack... just my ramblings i hope they make some sense...
BUt then again, perhaps Ennis would have adopted an "I told you so" attitide, although I personally suspect that this is unlikely, had Jack survived the attack. Still, perhaps such an attack may convince Ennis that drawing attention to themselves by living together would only attract some form of retribution, and I feel that had Jack lived, he may use the attack as justification not to meet that often...
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I agree MG. Ennis could react in two ways:
1. He can think now that life is so short and precious to live it with fears, that he has to stay with Jack before loosing him forever. He can realize now that he really needs and loves Jack and he should be with him, because you don't know when or how death can catch you, and you can regret of it if you have not spent your life with the one you love because of your fears.
2. Ennis can think now that he was right all the time. Maybe Jack was lucky this time, but maybe he will be not the next time......And now that Ennis really knows how much he loves Jack and how much Jack's death could hurt, he could think that living together is not worth of Jack's death. So maybe he could think that he better stay away from Jack, though it hurt Jack and himself, and being alone, then see Jack hurting again, or worse, dead. After suffering the unbearable pain of almost loosing Jack, Ennis could see that he can NOT risk Jack's life again.
Like MG said I think It could go either way.
I agree with this, especially on #2. Ennis may think that riking Jack's (and his) life would not have been worth it.
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I really believe that Jack was murdered by homophobes. I believe in the end, Ennis realized that they would have been safer together, and that it would have been better to live together even if they were killed, because that way they would have spent more time with each other, than those stolen moments they had once or twice a year in the middle of nowhere. Because if you add it all up, in the course of twenty years, how much time did Ennis and Jack spend together? It was probably about six or seven months total time. Ennis in the end feels cheated by his own self.
I do agree that with Jack's death, Ennis may very well have regreyted not sharing a life together. But as some of the others here had noted, perhaps there would have been a difference in Ennis's reaction had Jack survived. Either he would have been indeed pushed to share a life with Jack, for fear of losing him again, or he would have decided that he and Jack would be safer not being together... It is hard to decide which way Ennis may have taken, but surely, there could have been a strong difference in his reaction had Jack survived and had not died.
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I do agree that with Jack's death, Ennis may very well have regreyted not sharing a life together. But as some of the others here had noted, perhaps there would have been a difference in Ennis's reaction had Jack survived. Either he would have been indeed pushed to share a life with Jack, for fear of losing him again, or he would have decided that he and Jack would be safer not being together... It is hard to decide which way Ennis may have taken, but surely, there could have been a strong difference in his reaction had Jack survived and had not died.
Exactly, any way he looks at it now had Jack survived, he 'd see risks. He could live with Jack and take his chances of an attack on both or let it all go and walk away, only to have Jack vulnerable and attacked again. I feel he saw the light when Jack died. It could go either way, yes, but the whole purpose of being apart was to keep their love secret and them safe.. Some one now knows and has tried to kill Jack over it. Assuming the relationship continues, I don't see Ennis deserting Jack. His friend, his lover,his lil darlin again leaving him vulnerable. If he got that second chance after thinking Jack had been killed and knowing the price he paid for not being together, to protect him ,there is no question in my mind that he would never, ever let Jack go again. He was devastated, destroyed, like zankou said. Like if he could only turn back the hands of time. He'd go to Lightening Flat, face Jack's parents , this time with Jack in tow. Face any tire iron together with Jack just to show Jack he loved him. After what he'd gone through? if Jack himself said so, and would still have him, I feel he'd do anything for Jack, give anything, or take any risk to be with him again. He'd learned his lesson.
I think Jack's near-death experience would be the cataylist for that change in Ennis Jack so desperatly wanted. Sure, he had his fears, but I think he'd now find them unworthy of standing in the way of their love at that point. If they went down, at least they went down fighting together. Jack gave Ennis several second chances, This one would be the one offer Ennis cannot refuse, way too much at stake. IMHO.
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Exactly, any way he looks at it now had Jack survived, he 'd see risks. He could live with Jack and take his chances of an attack on both or let it all go and walk away, only to have Jack vulnerable and attacked again. I feel he saw the light when Jack died. It could go either way, yes, but the whole purpose of being apart was to keep their love secret and them safe.. Some one now knows and has tried to kill Jack over it. Assuming the relationship continues, I don't see Ennis deserting Jack. His friend, his lover,his lil darlin again leaving him vulnerable. If he got that second chance after thinking Jack had been killed and knowing the price he paid for not being together, to protect him ,there is no question in my mind that he would never, ever let Jack go again. He was devastated, destroyed, like zankou said. Like if he could only turn back the hands of time. He'd go to Lightening Flat, face Jack's parents , this time with Jack in tow. Face any tire iron together with Jack just to show Jack he loved him. After what he'd gone through? if Jack himself said so, and would still have him, I feel he'd do anything for Jack, give anything, or take any risk to be with him again. He'd learned his lesson.
I think Jack's near-death experience would be the cataylist for that change in Ennis Jack so desperatly wanted. Sure, he had his fears, but I think he'd now find them unworthy of standing in the way of their love at that point. If they went down, at least they went down fighting together. Jack gave Ennis several second chances, This one would be the one offer Ennis cannot refuse, way too much at stake. IMHO.
Then the whole tragedy of the story/film was that there was no second chance. This is perhaps all the more painful, because we feel that something ever so slightly did change after the Last Confrontation, so that had Jack survived the attack, perhaps the shock would have been enough to pull Ennis through. The fact that they were so close only accentuates the tragedy.
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Agree AF and Thomas. Beautiful posts, and so sad too, because now Ennis will never have that new chance, and we'll never know... :\'( :\'( :\'(
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Agree AF and Thomas. Beautiful posts, and so sad too, because now Ennis will never have that new chance, and we'll never know... :\'( :\'( :\'(
I think he realized this -- and this is why he did seem to ever so slightly change for the better (at least in the film).
So, we can say that it was not a total tragedy. There is a vision of hope of things to come -- even if what was lost is forever lost.
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I think he realized this -- and this is why he did seem to ever so slightly change for the better (at least in the film).
So, we can say that it was not a total tragedy. There is a vision of hope of things to come -- even if what was lost is forever lost.
Well,they say that from everything-even if it's the most tragic happenning,and/or precisely for this...-we can learn a lesson;that everything,no matter how negative could be,has its positive side.And maybe Ennis found that lesson in a positive sense although he couldn't' t already apply it to his own case.Sad,however¡. :\'(
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Well,they say that from everything-even if it's the most tragic happenning,and/or precisely for this...-we can learn a lesson;that everything,no matter how negative could be,has its positive side.And maybe Ennis found that lesson in a positive sense although he couldn't' t already apply it to his own case.Sad,however¡. :\'(
I feel that Ennis may have sought to reconcile himself over Jack's death by coming to Jack's parents and asking for the ashes so he can carry out Jack's wishes. Certainly, he had to feel obligated to do so , some redeeming quality gesture for himself for the guilt he surely felt. Then he finds the shirts. How does he redeem himself now? Now that he knows how deeply Jack's love was felt for him? and it takes Jack dying to make him realize what he's lost. . How could he possibly redeem himself in the face of these sacred symbols of their Love? I don't feel he had a choice except to do what he did. To take the shirts from Jack's closet, reverse them ,and place them in his own closet where he felt they now belonged.,completing /closing some sacred, eternal circle around their love, and then made a vow to himself and Jack that he will use the lessons Jack had taught him. That is to embrace love for his own sake, in all it's forms. My take on it.
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Well,they say that from everything-even if it's the most tragic happenning,and/or precisely for this...-we can learn a lesson;that everything,no matter how negative could be,has its positive side.And maybe Ennis found that lesson in a positive sense although he couldn't' t already apply it to his own case.Sad,however¡. :\'(
Yes, it doesn't change the fact that it is a tragedy. For Ennis, the lesson learned might not have been worth it. Is this too strong a statement?
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I feel that Ennis may have sought to reconcile himself over Jack's death by coming to Jack's parents and asking for the ashes so he can carry out Jack's wishes. Certainly, he had to feel obligated to do so , some redeeming quality gesture for himself for the guilt he surely felt. Then he finds the shirts. How does he redeem himself now? Now that he knows how deeply Jack's love was felt for him? and it takes Jack dying to make him realize what he's lost. . How could he possibly redeem himself in the face of these sacred symbols of their Love? I don't feel he had a choice except to do what he did. To take the shirts from Jack's closet, reverse them ,and place them in his own closet where he felt they now belonged.,completing /closing some sacred, eternal circle around their love, and then made a vow to himself and Jack that he will use the lessons Jack had taught him. That is to embrace love for his own sake, in all it's forms. My take on it.
Yes! I felt the same way. His visit to LF was a sort of penance -- at least this is how I view it. He of course didn't expect to find the shirts, but I am sure that he sensed there was something about Jack that he needed to find, if only to be at peace with himself -- not knowing for sure how Jack died and how unresolved things were for either of them. The visit was in seach of some resolution, IMO.
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Yes, it doesn't change the fact that it is a tragedy. For Ennis, the lesson learned might not have been worth it. Is this too strong a statement?
Totally agree, Thomas. Jack's life was more important than any lesson.....even if it was a lesson of love, because Jack was love himself.
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Yes, it doesn't change the fact that it is a tragedy. For Ennis, the lesson learned might not have been worth it. Is this too strong a statement?
No,Thomas,I think this is not too strong to say;it' s true,it's reality...Lessons don' t serve for anything if can be applied in something more than mere theory.And it's hard when not being able to apply them means loose your love,this love you've been always letting"for some time after,and after,and after" during years and years.When you see you can't change your mind,even if you want to,lessons learned are a sad relief...
Totally agree, Thomas. Jack's life was more important than any lesson.....even it was a lesson of love, because Jack was love himself.
Beautiful,Tammy¡ ^f^ But I repeat that the lessons of love don't worth anything if love is gone...
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Yes, it doesn't change the fact that it is a tragedy. For Ennis, the lesson learned might not have been worth it. Is this too strong a statement?
It may not be too strong a statement tpe. The lesson Ennis learned has great worth , personal promise for him in the future, but when it's measured against the way he had to learn it, does not offer much comfort or ease his pain... At least, not for a while anyway. He does'nt get a second chance. Yes, he has the shirts, a symbol of Jack's undying love, but it's also the friendship, all the little things about Jack that will haunt him the most, a gesture, a smile... even a smell or taste will remind him, Alma Jr's wedding certainly will. I doubt, Ennis could find anything positive about the situation for some time. With time, he may find a forgiveness for himself , but he'll never be allowed to forget what could have been. " Indeed, " what profit a man to gain the whole world, and loose his soul?" What did Ennis gain in exchange for his fear? Jack is dead, and I don't think he felt anything worth that loss. :\'( :(Thanx.
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It may not be too strong a statement tpe. The lesson Ennis learned has great worth , personal promise for him in the future, but when it's measured against the way he had to learn it, does not offer much comfort or ease his pain... At least, not for a while anyway. He does'nt get a second chance. Yes, he has the shirts, a symbol of Jack's undying love, but it's also the friendship, all the little things about Jack that will haunt him the most, a gesture, a smile... even a smell or taste will remind him, Alma Jr's wedding certainly will. I doubt, Ennis could find anything positive about the situation for some time. With time, he may find a forgiveness for himself , but he'll never be allowed to forget what could have been. " Indeed, " what profit a man to gain the whole world, and loose his soul?" What did Ennis gain in exchange for his fear? Jack is dead, and I don't think he felt anything worth that loss. :\'( :(Thanx.
Agree.... :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
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Thanks friends.
I do feel sometimes that had there been some certainly in Jack's death, there would have been greater closure for Ennis. But life has more of uncertainties and less of guarantees, no?
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I never understood if Jack died to a tire blowing up in his face or was he really beaten to death? I just thought the beating shown in the movie was Ennis just imagining the worst thing happening to Jack just like when he was a child and saw the body of that man who lived near him who was brutally beaten & hung.
My next question is... I thought Jack and Ennis met every month for a fishing trip, but towards the end of the movie at their final meeting together, Jack said he wasn't fine with just a couple of high altitude times with Ennis every year. Did their meetings start to get more spread out as the years went on because of their work and faimilies squeezing them for time or were they still meeting monthly?
Finally, when Lureen and Jack went out to that restaurant with their friends and Jack and the guy were sitting on the bench outside waiting for their wives to come out, was that guy leading Jack to go out on a trip to his friend's cabin with sexual intentions or was he just being friendly?
BTW, sorry if these questions were asked before!
Anthony
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Hi Anthony, welcome to the forum!! ^f^
I'll try my best to answer your questions. Sorry for my English.
1. No one knows for sure how Jack died. Ang Lee, and especially Annie P. said that they wanted the ending to be ambiguous so everyone could choose the ending they felt like more true. Some people thinks that Ennis was just being paranoid once again, imagining that he was right all time and Jack died because of the tire irons like Earl. Some people think that Jack really was murdered because of that homophobic society Ennis always feared. But neither Annie nor Ang said what was the real death of Jack, and I think Annie said once that she even didn't know what was the truth.
2. Ennis and Jack had family and works, and so little time to be together. Ennis couldn't quit a job per month to spend a week with Jack, and Jack couldn't get a week holiday every month. I think no one can do that. They met three or twice a year during those 16 years of fishing trips, and we think that in those final years they maybe only got together twice or once a year.
3. Randall, the guy you ask about, was for sure flirting with Jack with the only purpose to have sex with him. Randall was the foreman Jack's dad talked to Ennis about when Jack died. Jack had a sexual relationship with Randall for about 4 or 5 years, and Jack's dad said that Jack was planning to get him to LF to live with him.
I hope this help. ^f^ I'm sure more brokies will come here to answer your questions better than me.
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For me, I go back and forth about Jack's death. Some days it's just too hard for me to believe he was murdered. It's hard enough to think he was killed in some freak accident.
I think Ennis and Jack met as often as they could manage. We know Ennis quit jobs to be with Jack and Jack working in a family business gave him more flexibility to take off.
As for another lover on the side, well I don't quite buy that, otherwise I don't think Jack would have been so pained in the final confrontation when he told Ennis about needing something he didn't hardly ever get (companionship, sex. etc) If he had some lover waiting in the wings close to home I don't believe he would have made such a statement. I think he loved Ennis too much to have had another full blown affair. As far as what he told his folks, maybe like Lureen said, it might have been some pretend thing Jack made up in his head. JMO
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Well, if you read the original script, the one Ang Lee used you can see that Jack was in fact with Randall, Jack had another sexual relationship with a man. It's not me who says that, it was Ang and Diana O. and Heath and Jake.
Even there is a deleted scene where we can see Randall and Jack together in Jack's truck.
Annie wrote in her SS that Jack was seeing another guys beside Ennis.
So, yes, even if that is so painful, our Jack was having sex with another guy, and if we read the script we see that Jack was seeing that guy for over 4 years. Maybe you can get a copy of the film's script. Yeah, Jack loved Ennis with all his heart and soul, and that's why I love so much Jack, but that doesn't mean that Jack was not having sex with other guys. Jack needed so bad Ennis, something he couldn't get, so he tried to find someone or something to try to stand all those hard months between trips. Jack was sure with Randall a lot of time, years, but he loved only Ennis. He never quit loving him. The other relationships were only sex.
And well, Ennis was quitting jobs and Jack sure travelled a lot, but the once again you can read in the OS and you can read interviews of Ang and Annie and Diana and the actors where you can find that they really see each other twice or three times a year. You know the very Jack said that in the confrontation scene. Very sad thing, but so real.
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I think all of us would agree that as far as the movie and the screenplay goes, it was clear that Jack had affairs with other men.
If I understand correctly, rimasworld's objection centers on whether Jack had something deeper with anyone else besides Ennis.
First, we note that when Jack tells Ennis about "needing something he didn't hardly ever get", he is not denying the fact that he has had affairs with other men.
Have you been to Mexico, Jack...
Hell, I've been to Mexico. Is that a problem?
So "needing something he didn't hardly ever get" is not a denial of having affairs; rather, it is an attempt of justifying to Ennis why he has them. The implication is that if Ennis would agree to live with him, then all such affairs would cease.
I think all of us would agree that Jack's greatest and only love was Ennis. However, it is possible that, after the Final Confrontation, Jack relaized that he can't have the the life he wanted if he continued to wait for Ennis. Hence, his possible arrangement to live with Randall was made in order to pursue his dreams of a sweet life, even if it meant not having it with Ennis. How many time in real life do people forsake what they truly desire, in order to bring a dream to fruition. THis is the case with Jack. Living a life with another person didn't mean that he ever stopped loving Ennis, and it didn't mean that Ennis was no longer the first in his heart.
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How many time in real life do people forsake what they truly desire, in order to bring a dream to fruition. THis is the case with Jack. Living a life with another person didn't mean that he ever stopped loving Ennis, and it didn't mean that Ennis was no longer the first in his heart.
Totally agree with this, Thomas. Thank you so much. ^f^
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Hi Anthony and welcome in, I merged your topic to this existing one so you could read what was already discussed about this matter :)
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Thanks for the warm welcome and merging my post into the thread! :) This definately shed a lot of light on the questions that I had running through my mind after finally getting around to seeing the movie.
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Thanks Anthony for bringing back this topic. The answer, of course, to what happened to Jack and what plans he was about to set in motion will never be fully known. That's what dirves the continuing discussion, and make us appreciate the fluxion of uncertainties that we call life.
Thanks Tammy. :)
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Hello all! I'm new to this whole thing and I've never really understood forums and all but when I read about this website about this wonderful movie, I couldn't stay away.
My question is, "How did Jack die?"
1. I read somewhere that he could have really died from the tire iron hitting him in the face and Ennis just thought of the worse since it was part of his imagination.
2. Jack's father-in-law (I forgot his name) found out/knew about Jack being Gay so he got him killed.
3. He was killed the way that Ennis imagined it and it was just covered up.
I also have another question. When I watch the movie for the third time I caught the scene when Jack was sitting on a bench outside of the party with his wife's friend's husband and he mentioned that they should "get away" so does that mean he was Gay as well? Later, it was mention that he got divorced to his wife and was planning to move in with Jack.
Was Jack unfaithful?
Jack going to Mexico, "fixing up his dad's farm with the other man"?
It leaves many questions to me and I've never got a chance to read the book. But I might not be back on here for awhile or forever so if you need to reach me:
myspace.com/o7o69o
youtube.com/o7o69oPRODUCTIONS
In case anyone might be wondering, I'm Bisexual. ;)
BYE! <^(
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Hello all! I'm new to this whole thing and I've never really understood forums and all but when I read about this website about this wonderful movie, I couldn't stay away.
My question is, "How did Jack die?"
1. I read somewhere that he could have really died from the tire iron hitting him in the face and Ennis just thought of the worse since it was part of his imagination.
2. Jack's father-in-law (I forgot his name) found out/knew about Jack being Gay so he got him killed.
3. He was killed the way that Ennis imagined it and it was just covered up.
I also have another question. When I watch the movie for the third time I caught the scene when Jack was sitting on a bench outside of the party with his wife's friend's husband and he mentioned that they should "get away" so does that mean he was Gay as well? Later, it was mention that he got divorced to his wife and was planning to move in with Jack.
Was Jack unfaithful?
Jack going to Mexico, "fixing up his dad's farm with the other man"?
It leaves many questions to me and I've never got a chance to read the book. But I might not be back on here for awhile or forever so if you need to reach me:
myspace.com/o7o69o
youtube.com/o7o69oPRODUCTIONS
In case anyone might be wondering, I'm Bisexual. ;)
BYE! <^(
Hello, o7o69o. And welcome. :)
There is a a very long old thread devoted to this topic. I hav merged your thread with this old one. I hope you don't mind. The old thread is about 10 pages long, and read the previous posts at your leisure! Some of the opinions are quite interesting...
Let us know your reaction to some of them. It is good that you resurrected this wonderful topic, so very much at the heart of BBM.
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Jack's death is not ambiguous, it's explained in the movie that the murder scene was just Ennis' imagination.
It took more than 10 views for me to be 100% sure, paying attention to each small detail...
Ang Lee has hidden it very well...
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Jack's death is not ambiguous, it's explained in the movie that the murder scene was just Ennis' imagination.
It took more than 10 views for me to be 100% sure, paying attention to each small detail...
Ang Lee has hidden it very well...
Hmm...I don't think it was meant to be ambiguous but I do believe that sadly Jack was beaten to death. :(
I remember the first time I saw the movie, I found it confusing, and I honestly didn't understand that part. Ennis was talking on the phone with Lureen, and then suddenly it showed the images of Jack getting beaten with tire irons. I know now that it means that Ennis knew in his mind, he had that feeling that Jack was murdered. But I don't think it was just his imagination. I remember an interview with Ang Lee and the actors where he said that they actually filmed the scene that is supposed to be right before Jack was killed.
The people that kill him see him around town with Randall and then that's how they know he's gay and so they follow him. They also filmed it where Lureen says on the phone outright that she knew about Jack being gay. However they decided not to use those scenes. But I don't think it's so they could make it ambiguous. I think it's just another thing that this film does so well. A lot of what happened is not shown, and a technique the movie relies on is to show a little bit and then have the viewer put two and two together and figure out what happened. They don't have to tell us and show us everything for us to know what happened. From the hints we're given, we can figure them out. Both in the short story and the film, it's not what Lureen said to Ennis on the phone, it's how she said that implies that Jack was murdered. Her voice is described as being cold, like she had found out something about her husband. Also, at the end, it's clear she's holding back tears.
That is why I believe that Lureen found about Jack being gay because of the fact that Jack was murdered. That is how she finally found out after all those years, even though I think there had been rumors going around about Jack for a long time, Lureen was too busy with her work to really pay attention to what was going on with Jack. It is therefore only after he dies that she learns the truth. And then Ennis calls her, and she figures out that Ennis was not just a fishing buddy, he was the man Jack had been in relationship with all those years. She finally understood why Jack took all those trips to Wyoming, why Ennis never came to visit him in Texas instead, and what Jack had been doing all those years. She must have felt completely embarrassed and betrayed that her entire marriage was a sham from day one. Alma accidentally found out about early on, but ironically Lureen, a much more knowledgeable woman, didn't realize. I think only part of the story she told Ennis was true...the part about Jack having a flat tire and trying to pump it back up...but the other part about how he died wasn't. I think what really happened is those guys in the cutscene came across Jack and offered to help him with his car trouble as a trick. Jack probably accepted a ride in their truck, and once they had him there, instead of driving to where they told Jack they would go, they went to a field or empty area instead and there they beat him to death. Unfortunately, although Ennis was sometimes bordering on paranoid, and he was so afraid that he let that fear ruin his life, his fears were not just his imagination.
Unfortunately things like that do happen, and it's a sad and painful reality in this world. Matthew Shepard, a young gay man, was beaten to death in Wyoming in the year 1998. Another young man was beaten and then deliberately run over by a car in Texas less than a year earlier...in 1997. That kid wasn't even gay, but his attackers targeted him because he was different from them and called him "faggot" just because he wasn't a "macho" jock like they were. There are some horribly bigoted people out there in this world. Sadly, Ennis's fears were all too real...although I do believe he and Jack would have been safe if only they had run away to a big city and lived together. There they would be much more anonymous and the whole town wouldn't know their personal life. I think Ennis realized that at the end. But living in a more rural, conservative society, it was a very real possibility that homophobic monsters would come beat them to death. :(