Author Topic: How did Jack die? - possible spoiler (Read 116546 times)

daveya26 · « **Reply #30 on:** Jan 14, 2006, 08:54 PM »

Quote from: Toadily on Jan 14, 2006, 08:49 PM

She wrote the story before the Matt Shepard murder.

I think we can know that Jack died due to homophobia since Proulx's point in writing this was to address the tragedy of homophobia.

That's interesting, has she said that? Well done to her if that was her intention, it certainly got me all fired up (again) about the issue. The more this issue is acnowledged, the better.

Toadily · « **Reply #31 on:** Jan 14, 2006, 09:08 PM »

Quote from: daveya26 on Jan 14, 2006, 08:54 PM

Quote from: Toadily on Jan 14, 2006, 08:49 PM
She wrote the story before the Matt Shepard murder.

I think we can know that Jack died due to homophobia since Proulx's point in writing this was to address the tragedy of homophobia.

That's interesting, has she said that? Well done to her if that was her intention, it certainly got me all fired up (again) about the issue. The more this issue is acnowledged, the better.

Yep that's why she wrote it. I will see if I can link some stories and interviews of her.

daveya26 · « **Reply #32 on:** Jan 14, 2006, 09:10 PM »

Thanks Toadily - I dont know whether this board is a blessing or a curse but I came to it the first time tonite. Its now 2 am and Ive been on for hours reading all these great insights and opinions!

Toadily · « **Reply #33 on:** Jan 14, 2006, 09:13 PM »

I know I do the same thing! I can't stop thinking about something and have to find others thoughts!
I actually went back to see it again just to figure out the rodeo clown scene and how it all fit, and it does
famously.

Mabon · « **Reply #34 on:** Jan 29, 2006, 02:08 AM »

Quote from: Lamar on Dec 20, 2005, 10:16 PM

So yes, Jack was murdered by thugs hired by his Father-in-law.

His father-in-law had already died, though... Laureen inherited his business. Jack says so in the book when he's talking to Ennis.

coguaro · « **Reply #35 on:** Jan 29, 2006, 09:45 AM »

Who killed Jack??
I think that ts is impossible to give a name of his murder. Anyway I'm convinced that killer is someone of the intolerant and violent rural Jack ambient.
I though to the rodeo clown who refused the beer offer from Jack; it is clear that after refusing that offer he go to the billiard table and he speaks about Jack with some other cowboy who will look at Jack with bad look...
That is only an episode bur we can suppose that, being Jack so unable to hide his homosexuality, there would be many others in his life. With his behavior he exposed himself to prejudgment and he creates an hostility.

coguaro

chameau · « **Reply #36 on:** Jan 29, 2006, 11:54 AM »

Quote from: coguaro on Jan 29, 2006, 09:45 AM

Who killed Jack??
I think that ts is impossible to give a name of his murder. Anyway I'm convinced that killer is someone of the intolerant and violent rural Jack ambient.
I though to the rodeo clown who refused the beer offer from Jack; it is clear that after refusing that offer he go to the billiard table and he speaks about Jack with some other cowboy who will look at Jack with bad look...
That is only an episode bur we can suppose that, being Jack so unable to hide his homosexuality, there would be many others in his life. With his behavior he exposed himself to prejudgment and he creates an hostility.

coguaro

In the short story he died like Lureen tels Ennis.

I guess that what we see (the murder) is maybe just something going on Ennis mind, hes so traumatized... However there is a cut scene, we could see one picture "somewhere" on the net of 2 guys in a garage looking at... Jack? taking orders? At the end of the credits, they mention a killer mechainc, a grease monkey and an assailant. The picture I saw shows the mechanic and the grease monkey.

Go figure!

We might go to annieproulx.com and ask them

francis.shim · « **Reply #37 on:** Jan 29, 2006, 11:55 AM »

Quote from: coguaro on Jan 29, 2006, 09:45 AM

Who killed Jack??
I think that ts is impossible to give a name of his murder. Anyway I'm convinced that killer is someone of the intolerant and violent rural Jack ambient.
I though to the rodeo clown who refused the beer offer from Jack; it is clear that after refusing that offer he go to the billiard table and he speaks about Jack with some other cowboy who will look at Jack with bad look...
That is only an episode bur we can suppose that, being Jack so unable to hide his homosexuality, there would be many others in his life. With his behavior he exposed himself to prejudgment and he creates an hostility.

coguaro

Howdy,

I was wondering that maybe we should consider a broader question:

"What killed Jack?"

... because without the story actually providing a bona-fide investigation, we really can only speculate; however, I think you already answered this question.

Peace,
Frank

Titus · « **Reply #38 on:** Jan 29, 2006, 11:59 AM »

Last night I read the short story for the first time (didn’t get to sleep until about 3 a.m. this morning and have had a helluva long day, but maybe once I’ve written this I can go to bed. Hurray!). Proulx’s story and the film rather complement each other, filling in a few gaps to sooth my troubled mind. I agree with those who thought that Ennis’ take on Jack’s demise was what actually happened, although Proulx does leave it up in the air even for Ennis. If someone is just murdered, however terrible that is, you wouldn’t hide telling it even to a stranger who calls to find out what has happened. There is no shame being murdered unless the circumstances surrounding it touch on some kind of scandal. Jack even jokes about being caught by the “rancher’s wife’s husband” or Lureen (what a name! I have encountered it before. O to be in Dixie.). Proulx is so spare with her words that they are all important, though she leaves it with us to wrestle with. If talk-non-stop missus had noticed a decline in her husband’s attentions, or suspected his cabin forays, she’d definitely do some digging, probably worried that some woman like Lureen would get her claws into her husband.

I can see how a gay affair exposed even to a very few in a place like Childress (my grandfather was born in Hugo, OK and grew up moving back and forth across the OK-Texas border and up into the Texas Panhandle) could easily end up as a gay bashing that gets covered up. Small towns hold such secrets with people actually knowing the truth, but no one willing to break ranks and tell the truth.

I was surprised at Lureen’s going against Jack’s wishes and dividing his ashes, burying some in Childress (“we put up a stone”) and sending the rest to his folks so that they could sort out the Wyoming end of things. A widow trying to make it all look respectable? Not that I think she would have been directly involved, but she is definitely holding something back from Ennis and the penny does drop and she begins to understand who Ennis really is. All that peroxide can’t hide them lying eyes! Wonder what happened to the ranch foreman? That would settle the question as far as I’m concerned. Still Crying, Titus.

Mabon · « **Reply #39 on:** Jan 29, 2006, 01:32 PM »

It says in the short story, "So now he knew it had been the tire iron."

It seems like Annie Proulx is telling us it was the tire iron. She doesn't write, "Now Ennis guessed it was the tire iron", it's "So now he knew it was the tire iron." And it's deffinitely Jack that they show in that quick flash in the movie.

I had questions about this after first seeing the movie, too -- I hadn't read the short story yet, but after reading the short story several times, it really does fill in some gaps and answers some of these nagging little questions.

I also think Lureen knows perfectly well that her husband was attacked and why he was attacked. It's very typical of these type of white-wash stories to be used around what would be a scandalous situation. I've got relatives from the South and this type of thing goes on all the time. Lureen had a business reputation as well as a social reputation to protect.

And once she heard that Brokeback was a real place, she out figured who Ennis was she felt he was seeking some sort of closure and sent him to Jacks parents out of what little compassion she could muster up. That's my take on it.

ranchgal · « **Reply #40 on:** Jan 29, 2006, 02:29 PM »

I don't think AP was telling us anything about Jacks dying except he was dead!
Her words about Ennis knew it was the tire iron---Was simply telling us that that is Ennis' INTERPRETATION----it was not fact, he did NOT know---he was the one making the assumptions, and we can make our own.
She gave a perfectly plausible reason for Jack's dying----Ennis put the rest in our heads--from his head, it doesn't come from the story---it comes from Ennis' reactions and assumptions.
you as a reader can take them or leave them.

QUOTE:She wrote the story before the Matt Shepard murder.

I think we can know that Jack died due to homophobia since Proulx's point in writing this was to address the tragedy of homophobia.
QUOTE

I read the interview where she told about how the story came to be, and it didn't involve homophobia at the time---when she gave her reasons for writing this story---she told her own story, about how she had watched an older man in a WY bar---and he was completely ignoring all the sweet young things wandering around and he was watching the younger cowboys play pool and his expression stayed with her(she said it looked so longing and lost to her) and she couldn't get it out of her mind, and this story came to be from that man in that bar, and then it took on a life of its own----it didn't let go of her till she wrote it. But she says she wasn't trying to make any statements, she was just trying to tell the story as it came to her from her own insperation and experiences living with Western people.

Mabon · « **Reply #41 on:** Jan 29, 2006, 06:21 PM »

Quote from: ranchgal on Jan 29, 2006, 02:29 PM

I don't think AP was telling us anything about Jacks dying except he was dead!...

I didn't read the line that way. She didn't write, "So now Ennis assumed it had been the tire iron", or "So now Ennis interpreted it had been the tire iron", she writes, "So now he knew it had been the tire iron." Most writers choose their wording very carefully and A.P. seems to have made it clear.

I also read an interview and have seen on several news reports about the movie and short story that she wanted to write about homophobia. A.P. also made the statement in an interview that "... Wyoming is a homophobic place...", a statement which has generated some response on it's own. Aside from that I don't think she's making any overt statements at all. The potency of her writing lies in implication -- what the characters leave unsaid, so she doesn't tend to make any direct statements anyway.

I know the short story was written before Matthew Shepherd, it never occurred to me that some might think there is some connection -- I'm not quite sure where you're coming from with that statement in response to my post.

francis.shim · « **Reply #42 on:** Jan 29, 2006, 06:22 PM »

Quote from: ranchgal on Jan 29, 2006, 02:29 PM

I don't think AP was telling us anything about Jacks dying except he was dead!
Her words about Ennis knew it was the tire iron---Was simply telling us that that is Ennis' INTERPRETATION----it was not fact, he did NOT know---he was the one making the assumptions, and we can make our own.
She gave a perfectly plausible reason for Jack's dying----Ennis put the rest in our heads--from his head, it doesn't come from the story---it comes from Ennis' reactions and assumptions.
you as a reader can take them or leave them.

Hmmm... that was what I was led to believe too; more to the point, what was more important was Ennis' reaction to Jack's death. So, in fact, it was an important scene for the reader/audience to take: as far as Ennis was concerned it was the tire iron (symbolic of homophobia).

Quote

QUOTE:She wrote the story before the Matt Shepard murder.
I think we can know that Jack died due to homophobia since Proulx's point in writing this was to address the tragedy of homophobia.
QUOTE

I read the interview where she told about how the story came to be, and it didn't involve homophobia at the time---when she gave her reasons for writing this story---she told her own story, about how she had watched an older man in a WY bar---and he was completely ignoring all the sweet young things wandering around and he was watching the younger cowboys play pool and his expression stayed with her(she said it looked so longing and lost to her) and she couldn't get it out of her mind, and this story came to be from that man in that bar, and then it took on a life of its own----it didn't let go of her till she wrote it. But she says she wasn't trying to make any statements, she was just trying to tell the story as it came to her from her own insperation and experiences living with Western people.

So I guess it begs the question: what was it that she finally observed among the Westpeople as she was writing?

I had thought that in another interview, she did describe that she was writing about homophobia among the Westpeople. Her observations and imagination were then used to realize the story.

Peace,
Frank

*Froggy* · « **Reply #43 on:** Jan 29, 2006, 06:25 PM »

Quote from: Mabon on Jan 29, 2006, 06:21 PM

Quote from: ranchgal on Jan 29, 2006, 02:29 PM
I don't think AP was telling us anything about Jacks dying except he was dead!...

I didn't read the line that way. She didn't write, "So now Ennis assumed it had been the tire iron", or "So now Ennis interpreted it had been the tire iron", she writes, "So now he knew it had been the tire iron." Most writers choose their wording very carefully and A.P. seems to have made it clear.

I also read an interview and have seen on several news reports about the movie and short story that she wanted to write about homophobia. A.P. also made the statement in an interview that "... Wyoming is a homophobic place...", a statement which has generated some response on it's own. Aside from that I don't think she's making any overt statements at all. The potency of her writing lies in implication -- what the characters leave unsaid, so she doesn't tend to make any direct statements anyway.

I know the short story was written before Matthew Shepherd, it never occurred to me that some might think there is some connection -- I'm not quite sure where you're coming from with that statement in response to my post.

Thankx for this post...v.interesting points

x

ranchgal · « **Reply #44 on:** Jan 30, 2006, 04:14 PM »

the book clearly states that right after Lureen tells Ennis,and his initial reaction was " 'No,' he thought, 'they got him with the tire iron'."

and a paragraph later it states:

"He didn't know which way it was, the tire iron or a real accident, blood choking down Jack's throuat and nobody to turn him over. Underthe wind drone he heard steel slammin off bone, the hollow chatter of a settling tire rim."

So he accepts the possibility of the accident and then changes his mind again---so it is up to the reader---because that is the concept that the book ends with to:
"There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it."

Ennis still doesn't know if it was an accident or a hate crime, and he never will, and neither will we. And in essence to the story it doesn't matter.

Annie P has some interesting stories about man's inhumanity to man, and not dealing with gay aspects either---she has some just as dark, tragic stuff about different walks of life, and different type people in the rest of the stories in Close RAnge.

'

francis.shim · « **Reply #45 on:** Jan 30, 2006, 11:37 PM »

Quote from: ranchgal on Jan 30, 2006, 04:14 PM

Ennis still doesn't know if it was an accident or a hate crime, and he never will, and neither will we. And in essence to the story it doesn't matter.

Annie P has some interesting stories about man's inhumanity to man, and not dealing with gay aspects either---she has some just as dark, tragic stuff about different walks of life, and different type people in the rest of the stories in Close RAnge.

"Inhumanity"... now that is a really interesting word, isn't it?

I get the feeling that it is the rigidity of our fears and intolerances that create this inhumanity... Brokeback Mountain shows it plainly. So if we were to ask who or what in the story would have that much fear and intolerance of Jack, that they would kill him... I think we have an answer. Annie Proulx' short story is more ambiguous than the movie... but I think the movie definitely has a suggestion.

Peace,
Frank

Mabon · « **Reply #46 on:** Jan 31, 2006, 02:06 PM »

Quote from: francis.shim on Jan 30, 2006, 11:37 PM

"Inhumanity"... now that is a really interesting word, isn't it?

I get the feeling that it is the rigidity of our fears and intolerances that create this inhumanity... Brokeback Mountain shows it plainly. So if we were to ask who or what in the story would have that much fear and intolerance of Jack, that they would kill him... I think we have an answer. Annie Proulx' short story is more ambiguous than the movie... but I think the movie definitely has a suggestion.

Peace,
Frank

Thanks you, Frank!

cybernaut · « **Reply #47 on:** Feb 03, 2006, 12:20 PM »

Quote from: chameau on Jan 29, 2006, 11:54 AM

Jack? taking orders? At the end of the credits, they mention a killer mechainc, a grease monkey and an assailant. The picture I saw shows the mechanic and the grease monkey.

Go figure!

We might go to annieproulx.com and ask them

Was the cut scene in the screenplay too? I noticed the trailer had a few guys that wasn't featured in the show... Damn it, I don't want to pause the movie to see Jack getting beaten up and ruin my dream about Jack and Ennis staying together.

My educated guess was it that Jack flirted with one of them, they played tricks on him, confirmed their suspicions and ambused him. But it could also be Lureen behind the job... Eeeks!

bnjmn3 · « **Reply #48 on:** Feb 03, 2006, 03:02 PM »

I do not think Lureen was involved, but I think she knew it was a hate crime. In the flash back Jack is murdered between a fence and a railroad track..not the side of the road as Lureen tells us. I think she was covering-worried what the revelation of having a "gay" husband would do to her Kappa Phi image in the community.

stephan · « **Reply #49 on:** Feb 03, 2006, 07:04 PM »

Hi everybody,
just saw the film for the third time. It was even more devastating than the first two :'(
It seems to me that part of the sadness is that Jack tries to come to terms with wanting sex with other guys (even though there is only ONE Enis Del Mar). He's being honest with himself, so he goes to Mexico. And he probably has a relationship with the Texas guy he mentions to his parents. But being honest, he has to pay the price: death.
I think Jack was murdered. By whom is almost irrelevant. The point is that it fits with other aspects of Jack's life: he wanted a good marriage but he was denigrated by his wife's crowd. He wanted to move in with Ennis and spend more time with him, but Ennis wouldn't. He wanted to fix up his parents' ranch, but never did it. He wanted more sex, and was killed. He wanted to have his ashes on BBMountain but "society" conspired not to let that happen. Murder fits a pattern.
Stephan

Rod · « **Reply #50 on:** Feb 03, 2006, 07:12 PM »

Quote from: Lamar on Dec 20, 2005, 10:16 PM

I read the story, and deeply thought about many clues in the movie.

1. When Ennis visited Jack's parents, the dad said that although Jack had often spoke of bringing Ennis up to the ranch, he had most recently disclosed that he had a new "friend", a neighbor rancher, that he would be bringing up to the ranch to live. The father also said that Jack had decided to leave his wife.
2. There was a scene where Jack was talking to a neighbor rancher, who asked him to go to a cabin for a weekend, alone, a clear reference that the two of them would have private time to be intimate.
3. I think Jack started a relationship with another rancher, and told his wife he was leaving her, for a man.
4. I think the wife's father, big dady-in-law, was full of rage, he always despised Jack. I think the father-in-law arranged for Jack to be murdered.
5. I think Jack's wife knew what her daddy arranged for her. Her daddy was not going to let his princess be the laughing stock of the county, so he had Jack bumped off. That is why she pretended not to know who Ennis was when he called. This was all a calculated diminuation of who Jack had been. She was already cut off, as Jack had long since turned to regular sex with other men, out side of Ennis.

So yes, Jack was murdered by thugs hired by his Father-in-law.

But according to the book, Lurleens father was already dead at this point, she had inherited the business..

camom · « **Reply #51 on:** Feb 04, 2006, 03:59 AM »

Don't forget the awful murder scene Ennis was forced to witness as a child. That clearly would have colored his perception of what he "knew." Also don't forget his dreams that shift between grief and joy, between the tire iron spoon handle and Jack. The implication of what happened to Jack is there, but do we really "know?" Does Ennis really "know?"

And yes, I believe the movie is about homophobia--Ennis' as well as that of society at large--but about other issues as well.

camom

stephan · « **Reply #52 on:** Feb 04, 2006, 09:17 AM »

Quote from: camom on Feb 04, 2006, 03:59 AM

Don't forget the awful murder scene Ennis was forced to witness as a child. That clearly would have colored his perception of what he "knew." Also don't forget his dreams that shift between grief and joy, between the tire iron spoon handle and Jack. The implication of what happened to Jack is there, but do we really "know?" Does Ennis really "know?"

And yes, I believe the movie is about homophobia--Ennis' as well as that of society at large--but about other issues as well.
camom

Really good points, camom. I do think the murder scene reflects Ennis's thinking, and he was definitely influenced by what he saw as a child. I'm not a good mechanic by any means, but Lureen's explanation sounds surreal, Ennis guesses she's hiding the truth.
Another ingenious aspect of this film is that it is also about homophobia, without being about homosexuality - because it's about love

Stephan

chameau · « **Reply #53 on:** Feb 04, 2006, 02:07 PM »

Quote from: stephan on Feb 04, 2006, 09:17 AM

Quote from: camom on Feb 04, 2006, 03:59 AM
Don't forget the awful murder scene Ennis was forced to witness as a child. That clearly would have colored his perception of what he "knew." Also don't forget his dreams that shift between grief and joy, between the tire iron spoon handle and Jack. The implication of what happened to Jack is there, but do we really "know?" Does Ennis really "know?"

And yes, I believe the movie is about homophobia--Ennis' as well as that of society at large--but about other issues as well.
camom

Really good points, camom. I do think the murder scene reflects Ennis's thinking, and he was definitely influenced by what he saw as a child. I'm not a good mechanic by any means, but Lureen's explanation sounds surreal, Ennis guesses she's hiding the truth.
Another ingenious aspect of this film is that it is also about homophobia, without being about homosexuality - because it's about love
Stephan

Camom, Stephan, you are just great!

I agree with you guys, one thousand percent!

Hugs!

camom · « **Reply #54 on:** Feb 05, 2006, 03:04 AM »

Quote from: stephan on Feb 04, 2006, 09:17 AM

Quote from: camom on Feb 04, 2006, 03:59 AM
Don't forget the awful murder scene Ennis was forced to witness as a child. That clearly would have colored his perception of what he "knew." Also don't forget his dreams that shift between grief and joy, between the tire iron spoon handle and Jack. The implication of what happened to Jack is there, but do we really "know?" Does Ennis really "know?"

And yes, I believe the movie is about homophobia--Ennis' as well as that of society at large--but about other issues as well.
camom

Really good points, camom. I do think the murder scene reflects Ennis's thinking, and he was definitely influenced by what he saw as a child. I'm not a good mechanic by any means, but Lureen's explanation sounds surreal, Ennis guesses she's hiding the truth.
Another ingenious aspect of this film is that it is also about homophobia, without being about homosexuality - because it's about love
Stephan

I read somewhere (I think on the annieproulx.com forum), that the particular accident described in the short story and movie was actually possible with certain models of trucks. I don't remember specifics, but someone who had owned one of those trucks said that it could and did happen. So once again, we are left to speculate about what we know, and what we believe.

One of the truly haunting and compelling things about BBM is that there are so many ambiguities and unanswered questions. I don't think even AP knows all the answers. We're meant to be left with dreams of the spoon handle that becomes a tire iron.

camom

cybernaut · « **Reply #55 on:** Feb 05, 2006, 03:43 AM »

camom: I remember Ang Lee in an interview with Charlie Rose said that Jack was murdered in the book but he wanted to keep the "murder" ambiguous... He didn't say why but I think partly because he doesn't want to shock the audience too much into turning them off.

Well, except Passions of the Christ... Despite its violent graphic depictions, it didn't turn a lot of Christians off though...

francis.shim · « **Reply #56 on:** Feb 05, 2006, 10:03 AM »

Quote from: cybernaut on Feb 05, 2006, 03:43 AM

camom: I remember Ang Lee in an interview with Charlie Rose said that Jack was murdered in the book but he wanted to keep the "murder" ambiguous... He didn't say why but I think partly because he doesn't want to shock the audience too much into turning them off.

Well, except Passions of the Christ... Despite its violent graphic depictions, it didn't turn a lot of Christians off though...

.. and not to mention, "Brokeback Mountain" is already loaded with christian imagery and symbolism... I think Ang Lee probably wanted the ambiguity, because there is a faint connection between Jack Twist and a certain christian human image of love, sacrifice and redemption.

Peace,
Frank

cybernaut · « **Reply #57 on:** Feb 05, 2006, 10:32 AM »

Hi Frank,

Thanks for replying. That's the beauty of the film and at the same time it touched a raw nerve amongst certain audience.
So far the "Concerned Women of America" blasted the film for being anti-family.
But what is their definition of a family? Would two gay dads and their kids count?

francis.shim · « **Reply #58 on:** Feb 05, 2006, 10:43 AM »

Quote from: cybernaut on Feb 05, 2006, 10:32 AM

Hi Frank,

Thanks for replying. That's the beauty of the film and at the same time it touched a raw nerve amongst certain audience.
So far the "Concerned Women of America" blasted the film for being anti-family.
But what is their definition of a family? Would two gay dads and their kids count?

Exactly... I still get quite depressed realizing that they are many mis-guiding and mis-guided people out there that choose to idolize out-dated notions without properly understanding how harmful these notions are to all when applied incorrectly.

Peace,
Frank

cybernaut · « **Reply #59 on:** Feb 05, 2006, 10:58 AM »

Frank: Believe it or not, there are real life Ennis and Jacks around in the US. The worst part is that if one of them is a foreigner.
I am helping out in Immigration Task Force in Australia and I encounter quite a number of "Bush refugees" when a gay US citizen falls in love with a same-sex foreigner with no prospects of staying legally simply because "marriage" is not legally recognized federally. In order to pursue a future, they had to pack up and leave, often in countries where the legislation is gay-friendly.

Even though Australia does not recognise same-sex marriage, if one of the sponsor is an Australian resident, the sponsor can bring his or her de-facto spouse over and legally grant the spouse a residency to stay together, provided that conditions are met. Most would prefer skilled migration - its easier and faster.

I feel sad when people's hard-line stance hurts other people. Of course they have never experience a real gay couple with different circumstances but once they are able to see from their point of perspective and in their shoes, just like the movie Brokeback, it will break their hearts. :'(