Ennis: "I'm gonna tell you this one time, Jack f***in' Twist, an' I ain't foolin'. What I don't know - all them THINGS that I don't know - could get you killed if I should come to know them."
When he said the word THINGS in that loud aggressive tone I almost jumped out of my seat in the second viewing.
Powerful line
Ennis is essentially saying: "Jack, you are only for me!"
Jim
That was also Ennis' round about way of saying that he loved Jack... Sometimes possessiveness is the only way stoic people know how to express love.
Interesting how they both spoke openly of their wives and other women (Jack's affair, Ennis' waitress) with jealousy but the thought of Jack with another man drives Ennis wild. Its almost like the women arent a threat to them but another man could be, it could spoil something special and unique for them.
Interesting how they both spoke openly of their wives and other women (Jack's affair, Ennis' waitress) with [sic] jealousy but the thought of Jack with another man drives Ennis wild. Its almost like the women arent a threat to them but another man could be, it could spoil something special and unique for them.
Very interesting observation. I never thought of this. This could further support the theory of acting straight which they both knew that women in their lives are just a cover-up.
Sorry, I meant to say 'without jealousy', obviously ::)
That bit you quoted was in the movie, but interestingly not in the book. To me, it seems as if Ennis is being protective of Alma, he feels some guilt and doesnt want Jack belittling her.
I think that in this scene Ennis is captured by his jalousie and maybe offended by the idea that their unique, special, love didn't have been respected by Jack behavior. For that he use an aggressive language which maybe he listened when he was in his family house, the language he grown with. His cultural rotts coming out.
Ennis: "I'm gonna tell you this one time, Jack f***in' Twist, an' I ain't foolin'. What I don't know - all them THINGS that I don't know - could get you killed if I should come to know them."
Ennis: "I'm gonna tell you this one time, Jack f***in' Twist, an' I ain't foolin'. What I don't know - all them THINGS that I don't know - could get you killed if I should come to know them."
I too believe this was Ennis' way of expressing his hurt if he knew for sure that Jack had been with other men. When I saw this scene during my 2nd viewing I thought "Damn! He loves the hell outta this guy!"
BTW I love the name ENNIS!!!!
it was almost like Ennis KNEW that Jack was dead.
What if Ennis found out all about the other men in Jack's life and went ballistic?
impossible. There is no trace of it in the final.. its absurd considering the immense love tehy proved
coguaro
of course everything is possible but... there is no reasons because Ennis homicide could been hidden in the story... and also it muder may give an ugly shading to the final and I think it would change the final message of the film.
Morevoer I think that Ennis never could be capable to premeditate murder... that isn't in his character. I could see him maybe kill someone because of an instinctive reaction (think about the scene on the fireworks on in the road after thanksgiven dinner!)
coguaro
impossible. There is no trace of it in the final.. its absurd considering the immense love tehy proved
coguaro
I don't think it is absurd.
Hey, I thought this board was about what WE as individuals thought about the characters and what they and others and quotes symbolized.
While it is not what I think happened I cannot rule it out, as there are a lot of things that lead to believe Ennis could or did do this.
Heck ever read great mysteries?
J
J-
Sorry for my impulsive post which in retrospect I should have worded more nicely. I just had the feeling that you were making your suggestion for shock value.
Sorry that yo thought that. This would mean I was a troll which I am not. : (
It worked anyway!
I was thinking all sorts of things and when I spoke to a real life friend she came up with that scenario and it was one that I feel could have happened.
Of course you're entitled to your opinion and interpretation.
Yes I am. In my line of work we put out all sorts of interpretations . ; )
That said my feeling on Jack's death was that he was murdered by the FIL and cronies.
It is amzing how so many of us are ,here and wanting to talk about this movie,huh?
J
:-*
Just as a point of clarification, the short story makes it clear that Jack's FIL dies prior to Jack's death. The movie however does not relay this information and leaves open the possibility, which may have been intentional.
of course we can speculate about who killed Jack... but i cant imagine that it was Ennis...
Also looking at the film homicide scene I remember a group of aggressors (how it happen in classic group intolerance violence). It would mean that Ennis organize it or that he used some friends; in both cases I cant imagine Ennis could organize this plan... as we told before it seems that because of his character he could kill someone only for an impulsive reaction..
I cant consider Ennis as killer..
Of course this is my opinion.
baci
coguaro
While I cannot see Ennis as a killer with other people I DO see Ennis as a follower that could be seduced by some straight guys unfotunately.
I do not know who KILLED could have been Lureen, but it wasn't an accident.
Like you this is ONLY my opinion as well.
Nice to have all different opinions though. :)
J
I was thinking all sorts of things and when I spoke to a real life friend she came up with that scenario and it was one that I feel could have happened.
Yes I am. In my line of work we put out all sorts of interpretations . ; )
That said my feeling on Jack's death was that he was murdered by the FIL and cronies.
It is amzing how so many of us are ,here and wanting to talk about this movie,huh?
?????? It seems to me you are implying that I am issuing personal comments to some posters. If so PLEASE point this out to me.
The only one that can remotely be construed as such as is my reply in *get a grip* after I was asked it I was insane.
If you are posting just to ME then I guess I am gone from here, as it is FAR TOO MODERATED. : (
J
That was also Ennis' round about way of saying that he loved Jack... Sometimes possessiveness is the only way stoic people know how to express love.
Well I think that this kind of total love is not so frequent especially in homosexual world... this is more an heterosexual form of relationship..
... gay web world is the same (continuous rappresentation of nude young man, muscle man, sex lessons and so on)... I mean that is rare to see a "romantic" gay point of you of relations. In my limitate experience Ive found this vision more present in my heterosexual friends... once again... thats only my experience...
...reading your posts I think that I will change my opinion!!! How I mistook!!! :D
baci
coguaro
Just occurred to me how Ennis attacked the word "THINGS" and attacked Jack with it. There's a subtext there that Ennis is disgusted by homosexual sex ("them things"), and still considers what he has with Jack as "ain't queer." This also shows when he talks about what they have in Mexico for "boys like YOU."
it was almost like Ennis KNEW that Jack was dead.
What if Ennis found out all about the other men in Jack's life and went ballistic?
Are you insane??? You're suggesting that Ennis killed Jack???? :o
Were you paying any attention at all to the rest of the film??
I think this is highly unlikely...
Hello. You have the quotes mixed up. I was the one who made the jerky comments - I immediately regretted them and apologized.
I let my attachment to Ennis and Jack get the better of me.
Let it go.
Leave it.
'nuff said.
It ain't no thang!
we look to the future and feel the love...
Jim
:) :) :) :) :)
Hello. You have the quotes mixed up. I was the one who made the jerky comments - I immediately regretted them and apologized. This is supposed to be a friendly place where we share our love of the movie. I let my attachment to Ennis and Jack get the better of me.
Though never mentioned in the story or the screenplay, One of those THINGS that might get Jack killed might be AIDS (or exposing Ennis to AIDS)....considering the time frame....Just a thought..
Ennis is essentially saying: "Jack, you are only for me!"
Jim
Annie Proulx tells us in her essay in BBM - Story to Screenplay that the underlying theme of the story is destructive rural homophobia.
Because this is Ennis' story, and because he believes that nameless and faceless (watch the attack scene again) homophobes killed Jack, that makes it real for him and, therefore, THAT IS the reality, regardless of what actually took place (we are deliberately left to wonder).
Both men, of course, are emotionally murdered by that same viciously negative force.
We're also not supposed to know what Ennis means at the end when he says "Jack, I swear". We could debate it all day, but I think it was meant to be Ennis' precious secret. Part of the beauty of BBM is something none of us is used to - threads of the story that remain unexplained. It makes total sense to me that an emormously private man like Ennis would hold parts of his own story in his heart and leave us puzzling.
I may be right, I may be wrong - only Annie knows for sure.
Annie Proulx tells us in her essay in BBM - Story to Screenplay that the underlying theme of the story is destructive rural homophobia.
Because this is Ennis' story, and because he believes that nameless and faceless (watch the attack scene again) homophobes killed Jack, that makes it real for him and, therefore, THAT IS the reality, regardless of what actually took place (we are deliberately left to wonder).
Both men, of course, are emotionally murdered by that same viciously negative force.
We're also not supposed to know what Ennis means at the end when he says "Jack, I swear". We could debate it all day, but I think it was meant to be Ennis' precious secret. Part of the beauty of BBM is something none of us is used to - threads of the story that remain unexplained. It makes total sense to me that an emormously private man like Ennis would hold parts of his own story in his heart and leave us puzzling.
I may be right, I may be wrong - only Annie knows for sure.
Ennis is extremely reticent, he does not have the extended vocabulary to put into words the emotions that he is feeling at this moment. He is so overwhelmed with griief he cannot find the words to express it. I mean, where would he begin? Where would anyone of us begin? They are trapped inside him? Maybe that is a good thing. Maybe keeping them trapped inside him he keeps Jack there also. Does time heal all wounds? Not this one, not for Ennis. It is a wound that will never completely heal. Maybe he doesn't want it to, if it heals will it go away? for good?
To address the original question, I have to say that at every viewing, I've been quite sure that "All them THINGS that I don't know" is a declaration of love. Since it's Ennis, that's about all we're going to get on the topic of love, but that was LOVE, way past simple anger and jealousy. He isn't able to say how he feels positively, so yeah, it's threatening, but notice that (in the film), Jack isn't particularly fearful - he goes right on tearing in to Ennis.
There's only one other place where Ennis reveals the depth of his love in words, and that's where I first start crying in the film, because it's crushingly sad, and yet the truth of his love comes right through (again, this the screenplay);
Jack: "for how long?"
Ennis: "long as we can ride it ... no reins on this one"
That is Ennis's promise of eternal love, expressed in the only way he knows how, AND with a nice touch: expressed in a rodeo metaphor that Jack would understand. One of the most beautiful lines in the movie, despite the denial of the "kid and calf" living together that came right before it. Basically, 'we can't be together, but we'll always stay together". :'( :'(
His outburst at the last fight they have is a mirror of this line. He gave his heart to Jack and he must know Jack's heart is his, no matter what else Jack has done or will do to stay sane when he's away from Ennis.
btb
Annie Proulx tells us in her essay in BBM - Story to Screenplay that the underlying theme of the story is destructive rural homophobia.
Because this is Ennis' story, and because he believes that nameless and faceless (watch the attack scene again) homophobes killed Jack, that makes it real for him and, therefore, THAT IS the reality, regardless of what actually took place (we are deliberately left to wonder).
Both men, of course, are emotionally murdered by that same viciously negative force.
We're also not supposed to know what Ennis means at the end when he says "Jack, I swear". We could debate it all day, but I think it was meant to be Ennis' precious secret. Part of the beauty of BBM is something none of us is used to - threads of the story that remain unexplained. It makes total sense to me that an emormously private man like Ennis would hold parts of his own story in his heart and leave us puzzling.
I may be right, I may be wrong - only Annie knows for sure.
Ennis: "I'm gonna tell you this one time, Jack f***in' Twist, an' I ain't foolin'. What I don't know - all them THINGS that I don't know - could get you killed if I should come to know them."
I too believe this was Ennis' way of expressing his hurt if he knew for sure that Jack had been with other men. When I saw this scene during my 2nd viewing I thought "Damn! He loves the hell outta this guy!"
I'm not sure if it's some scratches on the film, but when Ennis turned his head before he said "then why don't you.." after Jack said "I wish I knew how to quit you", I think I saw a tear drop flying off Heath's left eye.....
I'm not sure if it's some scratches on the film, but when Ennis turned his head before he said "then why don't you.." after Jack said "I wish I knew how to quit you", I think I saw a tear drop flying off Heath's left eye.....
Heath is a projectile crier for sure. Very powerful.
I'm not sure if it's some scratches on the film, but when Ennis turned his head before he said "then why don't you.." after Jack said "I wish I knew how to quit you", I think I saw a tear drop flying off Heath's left eye.....
I'm not sure if it's some scratches on the film, but when Ennis turned his head before he said "then why don't you.." after Jack said "I wish I knew how to quit you", I think I saw a tear drop flying off Heath's left eye.....
I caught that too! Wow, huh.
I'm not sure if it's some scratches on the film, but when Ennis turned his head before he said "then why don't you.." after Jack said "I wish I knew how to quit you", I think I saw a tear drop flying off Heath's left eye.....
I caught that too! Wow, huh.
Me too!!!!!!!!!!! :'(
I'm not sure if it's some scratches on the film, but when Ennis turned his head before he said "then why don't you.." after Jack said "I wish I knew how to quit you", I think I saw a tear drop flying off Heath's left eye.....
I caught that too! Wow, huh.
Me too!!!!!!!!!!! :'(
Me to!
What's wrong with me, still not crying! ???
I'm not sure if it's some scratches on the film, but when Ennis turned his head before he said "then why don't you.." after Jack said "I wish I knew how to quit you", I think I saw a tear drop flying off Heath's left eye.....
I caught that too! Wow, huh.
Me too!!!!!!!!!!! :'(
Me to!
What's wrong with me, still not crying! ???
Ennis was voicing the best way how to let Cassie down, which at first was just to shut her out, but Ennis couldn't commit. Jack was the only one Ennis could ever commit to, ever. Jack was the same, he couldn't commit to his life with Lureen. He cared for, but didn't love her.
... He saw Ennis as a lifetime partner after the first night, and I think that scared Ennis somewhat, although he came to discover that he needed Jack as much as Jack needed him.
... He saw Ennis as a lifetime partner after the first night, and I think that scared Ennis somewhat, although he came to discover that he needed Jack as much as Jack needed him.
I really agree with you there.
Jack would have went ape-shit had Ennis done anything, which really isn't fair, but it is how two different people would have handled the situation. There's a tinge of jealousy to Jack, because I think he fell so hard for Ennis so early, the emotions were hard for Jack to keep the lid on, he needed so much more. He saw Ennis as a lifetime partner after the first night, and I think that scared Ennis somewhat, although he came to discover that he needed Jack as much as Jack needed him.
Ennis: "I'm gonna tell you this one time, Jack f***in' Twist, an' I ain't foolin'. What I don't know - all them THINGS that I don't know - could get you killed if I should come to know them."
When I first saw BBM I was very intrigued with the exact wording of this line. It gets caught up in Ennis's back country manner of speaking (no insult intended - it is just his background and who he is). I was thrown off by Jack's response in which he thinks Ennis has said (paraphrased) 'If I find out, I'll kill you.' Having read a lot of comments and trying to imagine what's going on with Ennis I initially took the line from Ennis as a homophobic warning and concren for Jack that if the 'Island Man", Ennis Del Mar, came to know "them things", there were already going to be a helluva lot other people some of whom would not be very tolerant that would know as well and that could get Jack killed (if not already by the time the news gets to the isolated "island'). Ennis may be isolated but he does have a keen awareness (paranoia?) of what others observe. He may be very quiet but he is not blind.This awareness also comes to play vice-versa when the bikers show a complete disregard for Ennis and his family at the fireworks (More ways than one!). And also when he makes the comment to Cassie that he was probably not much fun.
What do you think?
lowpro
Interesting how they both spoke openly of their wives and other women (Jack's affair, Ennis' waitress) with jealousy but the thought of Jack with another man drives Ennis wild. Its almost like the women arent a threat to them but another man could be, it could spoil something special and unique for them.
When Ennis warned Jack about the things he didn't know, as hurtful as Mexico may have been to him. I can't help but feel, he figured there was someone else.
Ennis knew Jack and his nature, his sexual nature. The one of thing that Ennis couldn't resist, but kept at a survivalable distance, almost like self regulating oneself, when he pushed back the date of the next meeting, Ennis must have to show himself he had have some sense of control.
Ennis knew there might be someone else Jack was seeing. He already let it be known he steps out on Lureen, with the "foreman's wife", what make Ennis think he wouldn't step out on him. Jack was too free.
Going to Mexico is bad enough, but going to one particular person, someone you may have a connection with, some one constant, waiting. Well that's a whole new can of worms. Who did Jack had in Texas? And I have to hand it to Jack, he was smart enough not to say too much. Jack knew Ennis equally as well.
This I think Ennis wouldn't have been able to handle, not from his Jack. He'll see him dead first. The dynamics of these two guys were so revealing. Ennis couldn't make Jack stay put, to be only for him, to stay within the rules established so many years ago, not give himself away to someone else. Jack couldn't make Ennis stay put, and to build a life with him. Both wanting the same thing but in different ways.
To hear Ennis tell it, he had made some kind of deal with his boss to meet with Jack. In Ennis's defense he WAS trying to swing these meetings around his job. Jack could seemingly take off when he wanted, Ennis did'nt have that luxury.
Unless there was a decision on his part to go * all or nothing* like Jack wanted , this would continue. The staus quo would remain in place. Ennis was at the mercy of his boss.
I agree, Ennis seemed like he suspected Jack of "things he don't know" outside of Mexico. That there were other men Jack was involved with. On the one hand Jack knew Ennis would spas out in a major way had he mentioned his affair with Randall, but on the other hand, maybe Jack should have been honest with Ennis, getting the whole truth out there. Would there even be an affair with Randall if Ennis was taking care of business? They'd tangle about it for sure, but Ennis seriously physically harming Jack over it? well...I don't know. I feel Ennis had to know why Jack was out there cheating ,although suspecting and having it confirmed are two different things. What he did'nt know, but suspected , what he did'nt see with his own eyes , is bad enough, but when he actually hears Jack unapologetically admitting to Ennis about other men...well thats a different story. Ennis does'nt wanna be reminded that he is the reason Jack is vulnerable to *outsiders* especially when he holds their relatinship so close to his heart. Jack said it, he was'nt Ennis, sex once or twice a year was unacceptable to him. Ennis held the whole relationship possessivly as Jack being his, but when the cat was away...well you know what the mice do. They play. MO.
Interesting how they both spoke openly of their wives and other women (Jack's affair, Ennis' waitress) with jealousy but the thought of Jack with another man drives Ennis wild. Its almost like the women arent a threat to them but another man could be, it could spoil something special and unique for them.
And maybe this points are the differences in both men, Not the idea of commitment because both were committed to each other, but the idea of repressing the very thing you need, Ennis felt he had to do it in order to survive, Jack resisted because that what he needed to live. JMO.
that make complete sense..Ennis culdnt bear Jack with some other man..Jack meant too much to him and he dint want to share that with some other man
I agree with what you've said later in post, but I do sure have a problem with Ennis excuse about working. Now this a man who'd quit jobs to be with Jack, and I know that's what he said to Jack not being like in the early days, he got "child support" well in those early days he had a wife, and the kids. That's why I don't think Jack totally bought into that excuse. And in the end it wasn't the child support, it was him.
We see Ennis crumbling at the thought of Jack's quitting him. And I think that was Ennis's problem just as you said that "possessive love" he had for Jack. He couldn't go all the way with him, but he had to have that "leash" just taut enough not let Jack stray too far.
Could Ennis kill Jack, sexual obsession, possessive love, and his rage all the ingredients, but Ennis wouldn't have warned him, he'd just do it, unexpectedly like the punch. But Jack didn't care at this point, and he wasn't backing down. Jack saw the irony of it, to kill him for wanting more, and not getting it.
I really don't think Jack gave a damn about where they settled , as long as they were together, but he brought up Mexico , Ennis heard that, bringing it up again in response to Jack 's *better idea once*. Hmmm...now it's "you been to Mexico Jack Twist? with that suspecting look on his face he has an idea what goes on in Mexico for boys like Jack. Boys like you? , the hell was HE thinking? This kind of threw me when I first saw it. All this time , Ennis is still seperating himself from Jack. ( miscommunication and disconnect at it's finest imo) I think it was the thing that set Jack off on such a tear with Ennis. He knew there was "all them things he did'nt know" existed, just did'nt wanna hear about it, discuss it ot even think about, but to kill Jack? really? Possesive? yes, obsessed? nah, I think he was bluffing. .but it did set Jack off to tell Ennis "just once" and for all that everything that he did after Brokeback for 20 yrs. could be traced back to him , because of him he had done alot of deperate things, not all to be proud of. He was looking for answers concerning the present and future, not the past. After all that has been said , not said ,and done he finds Ennis ,was still lying to himself. Thanx.
We have a tendency to bypass that line, "all those things I don't know, could get you killed if I ever come to know them.", but we shouldn't. We don't want to think, that Ennis could actually do it, we love him.
But this was the one moment, we see how deeply this "thing" went with him. Up until that moment it was a guessing game, does he or doesn't he love Jack, what did the pass twenty years mean to him, what was Jack to him?
No one, not Alma or Cassie kept him out of Jack's arms, neither of them could ease that need for Jack. Ennis built his life around Jack. But never understood what he was doing until the threat of him losing Jack could be for real.
Oh yeah don't dismiss that line, because this is a man who couldn't come to terms with what going on, and couldn't come to terms with the thought it could be slipping away from him.
What would he do if Jack just turned and walked away?
JMO.
Well, if we think of Jack's angry response to what Ennis said, we would think that Jack was telling Ennis that he had already killed him. For me, Jack's response to Ennis's threat was not a counter-threast; his response was an acknowledgement of a life lost -- or wasted -- when it was theirs for the taking.
But take what you said about Jack's meaning, and compare it to Ennis's life up until that point, it cost him, and now to lose it? It was only at that moment did Jack understand.
And I don't think Ennis understood until after he discovered the shirts.
You're right, Ennis didn't understand that he was loved until he found the shirts, but did Jack understand he was loved before he died?
You're right, Ennis didn't understand that he was loved until he found the shirts, but did Jack understand he was loved before he died?
You're right, Ennis didn't understand that he was loved until he found the shirts, but did Jack understand he was loved before he died?
I tell myself that jack knew he was loved based on a few things
1. the "there aint no reigns on this one" as I keep saying if this didnt mean anything but meaningless sex it would have ended alot sooner like during the summer of 1963
2. The way Ennis acted when waiting for Jack he put on his best shirt the anticipation like he was gonna go nuts if Jack didnt hurry up and of course when Ennis Flo-Joed down those stairs with the quickness threw Jack against the wall and went at it :clap: he didnt care at that moment who saw them he had to get to Jack and all that grabbing and caressing :d)
3. "I wish I knew how to quit you" Ennis basically went to pieces over the thought that Jack all these years of only having a few moments over the years and living this part of his life in secret then the thought of losing Jack on top of it was too much for Ennis, he said he didnt know how much more of this he could stand
Jack understood Ennis better than anyone so i believe even though Ennis wouldnt commit to having a complete life with Jack that he couldnt not because he didnt love Jack
Thanks friends for all the wonderful posts.
Isn't it the greatest irony about this topic: that the THING that Ennis didn't know was how much Jack understood him, in spite of everything? The greatest irony was that the greatest THING he didn't know was the extent of that love, and Jack's knowledge that even if they would move on into separate realms, that love would endure, no matter how imperfect or unresolved it may be.
Thanks MPJ.
One can argue that it was Jack's frustration over their love/relationship that inevitably killed him. And Ennis did indeed came to know about it in the last confrontation scene. A self-fulfilling prophesy, perhaps? I hope this is not too far-fetched.
Good point. I think after that last confrontation Jack was consumed with thoughts of Ennis more than ever.. should he stay, should he move on, should he wait for Ennis? Quite a bit was revealed that last meeting, enough to make Jack distracted in his daily activities from then on, enough that maybe even trying to change a tire caused him to not be concentrating enough on the task at hand, made one little slip up that cost him his life.
Thanks rimasworld. In whatever manner Jack died, I am quite certain that he had Ennis in mind up until the last moment. In truth, I think he never left Jack's mind after the last confrontation, even as he mentally and emotionally prepared himself to "move on".
This is true.
All them things he did'nt know including the extent of Jack's love may have lead directly to Jack's death. He was'nt there to protect Jack when he was murdered,( regardless of Lureen's story of Jack's death, Ennis assumes Jack died by the tireirons because someone found out he was gay). Her explaination did not bring Ennis closure.. It all became clear to him only after he finds the shirts, that Jack always loved him, in spite of all those other suspicions. By the time Ennis came to know there was at least one other man involved (Randall) Jack was dead, , nothing else really mattered except what he could have done to change that fact, Jack was gone.
Ennis was in a jeaulous rage when he said it. Actually, he said if HE came to know them, suggesting that HE would be the one to kill Jack. He was out done by fate. No doubt Ennis regretted those words imo.
Agree with that, Thomas. Poor baby, always unable to quit thinking about Ennis, to quit loving Ennis. That's why I love Jack so much!!! He was truly faithful (yeah, I said faithful, even as he was with all those men in Mexico and Randall) to Ennis and faithful to his feelings till the very end.
This is true.
All them things he did'nt know including the extent of Jack's love may have lead directly to Jack's death. He was'nt there to protect Jack when he was murdered,( regardless of Lureen's story of Jack's death, Ennis assumes Jack died by the tireirons because someone found out he was gay). Her explaination did not bring Ennis closure.. It all became clear to him only after he finds the shirts, that Jack always loved him, in spite of all those other suspicions. By the time Ennis came to know there was at least one other man involved (Randall) Jack was dead, , nothing else really mattered except what he could have done to change that fact, Jack was gone.
Ennis was in a jeaulous rage when he said it. Actually, he said if HE came to know them, suggesting that HE would be the one to kill Jack. He was out done by fate. No doubt Ennis regretted those words imo.
Yes I think Ennis really regretted what he said out of anger and I believe he felt guilt on top of it when he found out it had come to pass and Jack had really died. But this was so realistic because in the heat of anger people often say things they don't mean to the one they love the most.
Exactly rimasworld and tpe and thanks Baby Tammy.
People say things while in the heat of and argument they don't really mean literally. Ennis may have FELT like harming Jack out of the hurt and pain, but just the title of the thread to me suggests Ennis had suspected Jack was not totally faithful. Mexico was not his only suspicion. "all them things" suggests there was more. Being suspect is one thing but again, knowing for sure is another. ennis just did'nt want to acknowledge any of it or think about Jack with anyone else. Knowing about it would force Ennis to acknowledge his own faults regarding it. Yes, he was jeaulous, but he has to shift the blame onto some one else or he would have to admit to himself that Jack's infidelities were partly his own fault too.
Exactly rimasworld and tpe and thanks Baby Tammy.
People say things while in the heat of and argument they don't really mean literally. Ennis may have FELT like harming Jack out of the hurt and pain, but just the title of the thread to me suggests Ennis had suspected Jack was not totally faithful. Mexico was not his only suspicion. "all them things" suggests there was more. Being suspect is one thing but again, knowing for sure is another. ennis just did'nt want to acknowledge any of it or think about Jack with anyone else. Knowing about it would force Ennis to acknowledge his own faults regarding it. Yes, he was jeaulous, but he has to shift the blame onto some one else or he would have to admit to himself that Jack's infidelities were partly his own fault too.
What Ennis SHOULD have known was that every Randall ond Mexican hustler Jack consorted with was an attempt to find a surrogate for someone that Jack deemed irreplaceable. The irony is that before the visit to LF, Ennis might not have realized who that someone was.
Bravo Tom (:) (:) thats exactly how I feel about Jack going to Mexico or turning to Randall it was his needing something to occupy the pain of NOT BEING WITH ENNIS DEL MAR I never saw Randall as something serious even when Mr. Twist was explaining how Jack went from "I'm gonna bring down Ennis Del Mar and whip this ranch into shape", to "I'm bringing some divorced foreman to fix the ranch". At that moment Ennis might have thought OMG I've lost Jack to someone else before he died maybe he did quit me, but then the shirts told Ennis no he never quit you I believe Jack had more faith in Ennis than Ennis had in himself.
Bravo Tom (:) (:) thats exactly how I feel about Jack going to Mexico or turning to Randall it was his needing something to occupy the pain of NOT BEING WITH ENNIS DEL MAR I never saw Randall as something serious even when Mr. Twist was explaining how Jack went from "I'm gonna bring down Ennis Del Mar and whip this ranch into shape", to "I'm bringing some divorced foreman to fix the ranch". At that moment Ennis might have thought OMG I've lost Jack to someone else before he died maybe he did quit me, but then the shirts told Ennis no he never quit you I believe Jack had more faith in Ennis than Ennis had in himself.
So beautiful, baby. I agree with you. ^f^
I do believe that Jack knew that he was loved by Ennis before he died. I often think of how Ennis was probably the last thing that Jack saw in his mind.
Thanks friends! Wonderful posts during the weekend! :)
I guess after Ennis found the shirts, all them THINGS didn't matter that much anymore to him.
Of course not...I think that,in any case,the things that matters to him then were those ones he couldn't do anymore with Jack;the ones that could have brought more happy moments to both of them.Happiness that precisely these other things "he didn't know" had denied during almost 20 years.
He meant to say that u can only be mine and no other man can have u as u r meant only with me and no one else
Good point. I never thought of it that way. Both of his worst thoughts came to pass.
He meant to say that u can only be mine and no other man can have u as u r meant only with me and no one else
I agree with this. I have one question though, could this be the reply to Jack's "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it"?
I definitely see it as a compliment that stems from jealousy. Slightly *o) ...I was just thinking-after Ennis collapsed into his arms and said "I can't stand this no more, Jack"; I was surprised that he drove away, as I thought he meant "I can't stand being away from you anymore". Was there more discussion between them in the SS? Just curious.In the ss it's somewhat different than in the movie, Jack remains in his truck, Ennis collapses then recovers on his own, and the scene goes on:
In a way, his threat was sort of a compliment, no? It is better to realize that the one you love is jealous than indifferent. In this way, it can be seen as a sort of "negative" admission of love, don't you agree? MG, was this what you meant?
Yes, You see it, but I also think this is what sets Jack off on his tirade. Ennis would kill him if he ever found out he was with someone else, in other words, " you are mine, and mine alone", but he limits the time they are together, or not just saying outright, "you're gonna be with me always". Ennis is not doing this, not coming down off the fence he's been sitting on for twenty years, this what enrages Jack. Jack's fed up, time is passing, and there is not enough of it, I can understand why he wished he could quit Ennis. JMO.
Do we consider Ennis's "threat" to be a good or a bad thing in the long run? I know that it did open the floodgates as far as jack was concerned, but perhaps this would have been inevitable?
I had started a thread a long time ago about the "possessiveness" of Ennis, and I cited the threat as the prime example. I remember some interesting exchanges there -- not everyone agreed that he was especially possessive. Are we to distinguish between possessiveness and jealousy?
Do we consider Ennis's "threat" to be a good or a bad thing in the long run? I know that it did open the floodgates as far as jack was concerned, but perhaps this would have been inevitable?
I had started a thread a long time ago about the "possessiveness" of Ennis, and I cited the threat as the prime example. I remember some interesting exchanges there -- not everyone agreed that he was especially possessive. Are we to distinguish between possessiveness and jealousy?
I think it was jealous and possessive can be one in the same Ennis didnt mind when it was the "forman's wife" he thought that was funny but when the mexico implication came out he was far from pleased,
I just saw this scene again on Bravo, and after Ennis does kinda laugh at the idea of Jack and the forman's wife, he then pauses, gets serious, and glances at Jack...like he doesn't like the idea.Wow, yeah, there can a lot to conclude about what Ennis thought of Jack's confession.
I wondered at this.. if that reaction had to do with Ennis being jealous of Jack with someone else, or possibly upset that Jack might be so attracted to women also, that he would actually risk sleeping with a married woman.... while Ennis is trying so hard to deny his attration to men.
After this thought...this guilt... festering in his mind all night, would it then make Ennis that much more ticked off at the Mexio confession? Like, wait, I thought you just threw in my face that you still like women a lot; now it turns outs your attracted to other men as much as me, except you;re actually doing something about it.
???
Wow, yeah, there can a lot to conclude about what Ennis thought of Jack's confession.
Remember they didn't look at their relationship as being unfaithful to their wives in itself, to be married was what you're suppose to be, taking care of your family was what you had to do. Their relationship was separate and apart from that.
But for Jack to step outside the bounds of that relationship had to have work on Ennis mind that night, and this in the wake of the Cassie confession, in some way he wanted to let Jack know he was faithful to him.But Jack displayed a freedom Ennis never experienced. A freedom of spirit, and of his body that Ennis in some way had shut down, if not, hinder a bit. That's why the change in the planned meeting in August. I never quite believed he couldn't make the meeting, but stall it a bit yes. Ennis knew how to tighten that leash when necessary, and Jack knew it. Was it out of fear of losing him?
Wow, yeah, there can a lot to conclude about what Ennis thought of Jack's confession.
Remember they didn't look at their relationship as being unfaithful to their wives in itself, to be married was what you're suppose to be, taking care of your family was what you had to do. Their relationship was separate and apart from that.
But for Jack to step outside the bounds of that relationship had to have work on Ennis mind that night, and this in the wake of the Cassie confession, in some way he wanted to let Jack know he was faithful to him.
But Jack displayed a freedom Ennis never experienced. A freedom of spirit, and of his body that Ennis in some way had shut down, if not, hinder a bit. That's why the change in the planned meeting in August. I never quite believed he couldn't make the meeting, but stall it a bit yes. Ennis knew how to tighten that leash when necessary, and Jack knew it. Was it out of fear of losing him?
Very good Thomas. All of the sacrifices he had made during the 20 yrs. All of the pent-up anger comes tumbling out when he finds out that he will only have a wk. in Nov. for the entire yr. with Ennis. Unacceptable. I don't think, however, that he stopped to think of the sacrifices that Ennis made all those yrs. until Ennis broke down. I was so glad when he grabbed Ennis for dear life to comfort him. :\'(
Ennis life was exactly that, he lived for Jack. Every decision he made, every job he took, ever real feeling he had, was for Jack. Ennis didn't understand it, and probably deny it, but he was in love.
I agree,MG;Ennis life turned around Jack.Even if his life changed in the last years,and his economical and familiar duties avoided him to see his lover as often as he wanted.Even if this situation sometimes seems provoked by Ennis himself,as a way of running away from a socially bad considered relationship.Even the strength of his own denials and fears,even the strength of himself against the thought itself,Ennis was madly in love.
Oh my and that look on Jack's face after admitting he'd been in Mexico and saying "is that a f***n problem?" So many emotions in that face, anger hurt regret sadness love, he knew right after he said it that it had broken Ennis's heart.
He was in love without even knowing it.
He was in love without even knowing it.
It was a mixture of guilt and indignation. He probably felt that all this was so secondary/subordiante to the main issue that kept them apart over those years. It was a symptom and not the problem.
I go back and forth on my opinion on this. Ennis referred to it as "this thing that got hold of him" and I'm wondering how couldn't he have known deep down in his heart what it was? but then again he was so conflicted.. I don't know.
And without daring to call it so...
Of course,you're right againˇ. The real problem was another one,much deeper indeed.Even if Jack could feel guilty for his faithless behaviour,he knew perfectly well that it was the symptom that both of them were being faithless not physically,buy emotionally to each other and their hopes.In this sense,I've always thought that Jack was more faithful,even if he had many occasional lovers,to his first and main idea and wish.
I go back and forth on my opinion on this. Ennis referred to it as "this thing that got hold of him" and I'm wondering how couldn't he have known deep down in his heart what it was? but then again he was so conflicted.. I don't know.
I agree with this. I have one question though, could this be the reply to Jack's "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it"?
I agree with these great posts myprivatejack,tpe, and rimasworld,
I am reminded in Ennis's case of the devil and angel scenario of one on each shoulder whispering into his ears. One telling him that deep down iside, he knows it's love and that he should embrace it, the other reminding him that it's totally forbidden to embrace it.
It was too much for Ennis to ask of himself. An inner battle or tug of war for his soul. His feelings for Jack vs society , culture, and childhood teachings. Either way Ennis looks at it, it's Love vs the fear of love, with a price too high to pay for either.. Meanwhile the message Jack gets is ...his love for Ennis is not enough, especially when expressing it out loud is not an option. but what more could he have done to show his love? His frustration is clear. Nothing short of Jack's death could allow Ennis to see the true worth of Jack's love or self love. Only then could Ennis receive/embrace true love and give it as well. MO.
That's a good point that I've never thought about! :clap:
In a way, all the things that the didn't "know" included just how much they loved each other. Ironic.
One more time,you hit the nail on the head,Thomasˇ (and excuse me if the expression isn't right... ;D ).Maybe this is the real and main thing that they didn't know-specially,what Ennis didn't know or what he didn't want to know...-and what was the root of all their tragedy.
Was wondering how did Ennis know about Jack straying .. about Mexico and "all them things... get you killed". Ennis appears to be a person with not much initiative , i doubt he would ever do a research!. They didn't have common friends or even acquaintance, its not facebook age them he would stalk and find out, they didn't meet regularly, neither did they meet at each other's place that he would come accross evidence. Neither did Ennis ask too many questions, Jack must have been lying then how the hell did he know
Anybody can throw some light this question has been bugging me for some time now ! ??? ... wonder if i have missed any minute detail which could cue
I loved that scene so much. Probably my second favourite in the entire movie, and short story.
To be honest, I can't rationalise properly what I think it means.
I look on it like this. Ennis life is built on control and a face of making do with what you can't change. So, 'all them things that I don't know' would simply be the things he knows exist, but can't change. So he'll make do and 'stand' them out.
The script and the story tell us that Jack had braced this confrontation for years, and here it came, late, and unexpected. In both the script I've got, and the short story, when Jack talks about the good life they could've had together they say "You wouldn't do it Ennis', where as the film as released features 'You didn't want it Ennis'.
Not wanting the life together, is not want Ennis 'wanted' it's what he 'wouldn't do'. Huge difference, I wonder why they went with this. But, in the film version, when Jack is lamenting the good life they could've had together, Ennis is silent, but he's nodding. So he agrees. They could've had a good life, but didn't, and wouldn't.
They kind of reconcile, although nothings resolved, nothings ended, nothings changed. The power of their embrace almost brings everything to where it was, although things said, can never be unsaid.
Hello everyone! I've been reading some of your thoughts on this post and they are really profound and I agree with the most of them. That scene is really beautiful and heartbreaking at the same time, we use to see Jack so sweet and calm always and dissapointed at times, but always being a support for Ennis, but when he gets caught for "Mexico" he uses all that indignation to free himself and say everything bad to Ennis, who shows his feelings and makes my heart melt :_( it's so sad how Enni's face shows all that anger and jealousy, and at the same time so beautiful... :_( I think the director should give us some more footage for Christmas :_(I could easily watch another hour or more of new scenes in this movie, I love it that much.