Topic: All them THINGS that I don't know

[manhattangirl]

And I don't think Ennis understood until after he discovered the shirts.

You're right, Ennis didn't understand that he was loved until he found the shirts, but did Jack understand he was loved before he died? 

[tpe]

You're right, Ennis didn't understand that he was loved until he found the shirts, but did Jack understand he was loved before he died? 

I think he had always understood -- although he also understood that Ennis loved him imperfectly up until just before he died.  "Let be, let be."

 

[babytammy7]

You're right, Ennis didn't understand that he was loved until he found the shirts, but did Jack understand he was loved before he died? 

I've wondered the same heartbreaking question over and over again. 

[myprivatejack]

You're right, Ennis didn't understand that he was loved until he found the shirts, but did Jack understand he was loved before he died? 

I think he understood it somehow,but always with the imperfection of the unfinished or uncomplet...And that sometimes he had some doubts about,if not Ennis love for him,his desire of keep on living in that way.IMO,for this reason,he had at the end a relationship with Randall,a man who could give him a security of being loved and-as we see in the last scenes-even of living with him.A way of being more secure and have a stronger self-esteem,perhaps?.

[sportstalk23]

I tell myself that jack knew he was loved based on a few things

1. the "there aint no reigns on this one" as I keep saying if this didnt mean anything but meaningless sex it would have ended alot sooner like during the summer of 1963

2. The way Ennis acted when waiting for Jack he put on his best shirt the anticipation like he was gonna go nuts if Jack didnt hurry up and of course when Ennis Flo-Joed down those stairs with the quickness threw Jack against the wall and went at it  he didnt care at that moment who saw them he had to get to Jack and all that grabbing and caressing 

3. "I wish I knew how to quit you" Ennis basically went to pieces over the thought that Jack all these years of only having a few moments over the years and living this part of his life in secret then the thought of losing Jack on top of it was too much for Ennis, he said he didnt know how much more of this he could stand

Jack understood Ennis better than anyone so i believe even though Ennis wouldnt commit to having a complete life with Jack that he couldnt not because he didnt love Jack

[rimasworld]

I tell myself that jack knew he was loved based on a few things

1. the "there aint no reigns on this one" as I keep saying if this didnt mean anything but meaningless sex it would have ended alot sooner like during the summer of 1963

2. The way Ennis acted when waiting for Jack he put on his best shirt the anticipation like he was gonna go nuts if Jack didnt hurry up and of course when Ennis Flo-Joed down those stairs with the quickness threw Jack against the wall and went at it  he didnt care at that moment who saw them he had to get to Jack and all that grabbing and caressing 

3. "I wish I knew how to quit you" Ennis basically went to pieces over the thought that Jack all these years of only having a few moments over the years and living this part of his life in secret then the thought of losing Jack on top of it was too much for Ennis, he said he didnt know how much more of this he could stand

Jack understood Ennis better than anyone so i believe even though Ennis wouldnt commit to having a complete life with Jack that he couldnt not because he didnt love Jack

ITA I believe Jack had to know Ennis loved him, I mean over all those years there was such a deep friendship and passion. Ennis had a suppressed way of showing love where Jack was more open and truthful. But Jack understood Ennis probably more than Ennis understood himself and accepted it for the most part. The fact that Ennis had a struggle with commitment is what I think really frustrated Jack over the years and was kind of the last straw in that showdown. Lots of people in relationships have trouble with commitment, it's the final step, giving yourself totally to love and share your life with one person. And I really don't think Jack was going to start over with any other man either. It was just him thinking out loud at his folks because he was probably still mad at Ennis and also very hurt. How many of us have said things we don't mean when we are hurt and angry at the one we love most and some times share those thoughts with others? JMO 

[aintfoolin]

I agree, with this absolutley. Jack could read Ennis very well. What he could'nt speak verbally, Jack understood.  It's what imo is what kept Jack returning to Ennis yr. after yr.  He knew Ennis loved and needed him.The actions Ennis put forth were clear to him. Don't so much believe what Ennis says, but what he does,  how he acts and stay cautious of spooking him. Jack knew Ennis loved him IMHO.

When Ennis related the story of Earl and Rich so vividly to Jack,   Jack asks him "you seen this"?. I feel Jack also knew WHY Ennis could'nt admit he loved him.  This story  was the reason Ennis offers Jack why "no way" two men can live together. Why he coud'nt ranch up with him. Why he could'nt fullfill Jack's dream. Harm would come to Jack, him, or both.  Even though he is not committed in  as far as ranching up, he is comitted mentally, pysically, and emotionally to Jack." No reins on this one" of course Ennis's way of telling Jack that his feelings for him are undeniable.  Brokeback , despite marrying Alma,  was still very real to him after 4 yrs. "this one" meaning the first one , not the second one with Alma.  Jack is the *one* he wants the most. And for  how long?as long as they could ride it. I think Jack understood what that meant.  Ennis did love him till the end. My two cents. Thanx.

[tpe]

Thanks friends for all the wonderful posts.

Isn't it the greatest irony about this topic:  that the THING that Ennis didn't know was how much Jack understood him, in spite of everything?  The greatest irony was that the greatest THING he didn't know was the extent of that love, and Jack's knowledge that even if they would move on into separate realms, that love would endure, no matter how imperfect or unresolved it may be.

   

[myprivatejack]

Thanks friends for all the wonderful posts.

Isn't it the greatest irony about this topic:  that the THING that Ennis didn't know was how much Jack understood him, in spite of everything?  The greatest irony was that the greatest THING he didn't know was the extent of that love, and Jack's knowledge that even if they would move on into separate realms, that love would endure, no matter how imperfect or unresolved it may be.   

I've never thought about this in this sense,but you're right; to make things right,he first needed to know how much Jack understood him,even if that meant renounce to his dreams or adapt them to Ennis reality.But maybe it's true that the first and main thing he didn't know is the extent of that love...or that this thing was love indeed?.

[tpe]

Thanks MPJ.

One can argue that it was Jack's frustration over their love/relationship that inevitably killed him.   And Ennis did indeed came to know about it in the last confrontation scene.    A self-fulfilling prophesy, perhaps?  I hope this is not too far-fetched.

[rimasworld]

Thanks MPJ.

One can argue that it was Jack's frustration over their love/relationship that inevitably killed him.   And Ennis did indeed came to know about it in the last confrontation scene.    A self-fulfilling prophesy, perhaps?  I hope this is not too far-fetched.

Good point. I think after that last confrontation Jack was consumed with thoughts of Ennis more than ever.. should he stay, should he move on, should he wait for Ennis? Quite a bit was revealed that last meeting, enough to make Jack distracted in his daily activities from then on, enough that maybe even trying to change a tire caused him to not be concentrating enough on the task at hand, made one little slip up that cost him his life. 

[tpe]

Good point. I think after that last confrontation Jack was consumed with thoughts of Ennis more than ever.. should he stay, should he move on, should he wait for Ennis? Quite a bit was revealed that last meeting, enough to make Jack distracted in his daily activities from then on, enough that maybe even trying to change a tire caused him to not be concentrating enough on the task at hand, made one little slip up that cost him his life. 

Thanks rimasworld.  In whatever manner Jack died, I am quite certain that he had Ennis in mind up until the last moment.  In truth, I think he never left Jack's mind after the last confrontation, even as he mentally and emotionally prepared himself to "move on".

[babytammy7]

Thanks rimasworld.  In whatever manner Jack died, I am quite certain that he had Ennis in mind up until the last moment.  In truth, I think he never left Jack's mind after the last confrontation, even as he mentally and emotionally prepared himself to "move on".

Agree with that, Thomas. Poor baby, always unable to quit thinking about Ennis, to quit loving Ennis. That's why I love Jack so much!!! He was truly faithful (yeah, I said faithful, even as he was with all those men in Mexico and Randall) to Ennis and faithful to his feelings till the very end.

[aintfoolin]

This is true.
 All them things he did'nt know including the extent of Jack's love may have lead directly to Jack's death. He was'nt there to protect Jack when he was murdered,( regardless of Lureen's story of Jack's death, Ennis assumes Jack died by the tireirons because someone found out he was gay).  Her explaination did not bring Ennis closure.. It all became clear to him only after he finds the shirts, that Jack always loved him, in spite of all those other suspicions.  By the time Ennis came to know there was at least one other man involved (Randall) Jack was dead, , nothing else really mattered except what he could have done to change that fact, Jack was gone.

Ennis was in a jeaulous rage when he said it. Actually,  he said if HE came to know them, suggesting that HE would   be the one to kill Jack. He was out done by fate. No doubt Ennis regretted those words imo.

[babytammy7]

I quote word by word, Af. 

[rimasworld]

This is true.
 All them things he did'nt know including the extent of Jack's love may have lead directly to Jack's death. He was'nt there to protect Jack when he was murdered,( regardless of Lureen's story of Jack's death, Ennis assumes Jack died by the tireirons because someone found out he was gay).  Her explaination did not bring Ennis closure.. It all became clear to him only after he finds the shirts, that Jack always loved him, in spite of all those other suspicions.  By the time Ennis came to know there was at least one other man involved (Randall) Jack was dead, , nothing else really mattered except what he could have done to change that fact, Jack was gone.

Ennis was in a jeaulous rage when he said it. Actually,  he said if HE came to know them, suggesting that HE would   be the one to kill Jack. He was out done by fate. No doubt Ennis regretted those words imo.

Yes I think Ennis really regretted what he said out of anger and I believe he felt guilt on top of it when he found out it had come to pass and Jack had really died. But this was so realistic because in the heat of anger people often say things they don't mean to the one they love the most.

[tpe]

Agree with that, Thomas. Poor baby, always unable to quit thinking about Ennis, to quit loving Ennis. That's why I love Jack so much!!! He was truly faithful (yeah, I said faithful, even as he was with all those men in Mexico and Randall) to Ennis and faithful to his feelings till the very end.

What Ennis SHOULD have known was that every Randall ond Mexican hustler Jack consorted with was an attempt to find a surrogate for someone that Jack deemed irreplaceable.   The irony is that before the visit to LF, Ennis might not have realized who that someone was.

[tpe]

This is true.
 All them things he did'nt know including the extent of Jack's love may have lead directly to Jack's death. He was'nt there to protect Jack when he was murdered,( regardless of Lureen's story of Jack's death, Ennis assumes Jack died by the tireirons because someone found out he was gay).  Her explaination did not bring Ennis closure.. It all became clear to him only after he finds the shirts, that Jack always loved him, in spite of all those other suspicions.  By the time Ennis came to know there was at least one other man involved (Randall) Jack was dead, , nothing else really mattered except what he could have done to change that fact, Jack was gone.

Ennis was in a jeaulous rage when he said it. Actually,  he said if HE came to know them, suggesting that HE would   be the one to kill Jack. He was out done by fate. No doubt Ennis regretted those words imo.

Yes I think Ennis really regretted what he said out of anger and I believe he felt guilt on top of it when he found out it had come to pass and Jack had really died. But this was so realistic because in the heat of anger people often say things they don't mean to the one they love the most.

Of course, it was also noted a while back that a double meaning can be given to Ennis's threat -- that all those things he didn't know would lead to Jack's demise...

[aintfoolin]

Exactly rimasworld and tpe and thanks Baby Tammy.
 People say things while in the heat of and argument they don't really mean literally. Ennis may have FELT like harming Jack out of the hurt and pain, but just the title of the thread to me suggests  Ennis had suspected Jack was not totally faithful. Mexico was not his only suspicion. "all them things" suggests there was more. Being suspect is one thing but again, knowing for sure is another. ennis just did'nt want to acknowledge any of it or think about Jack with anyone else. Knowing about it would force Ennis to acknowledge his own faults regarding it. Yes, he was jeaulous, but he has to shift the blame onto some one else or he would have to admit to himself that Jack's infidelities were partly his own fault too.

[tpe]

Exactly rimasworld and tpe and thanks Baby Tammy.
 People say things while in the heat of and argument they don't really mean literally. Ennis may have FELT like harming Jack out of the hurt and pain, but just the title of the thread to me suggests  Ennis had suspected Jack was not totally faithful. Mexico was not his only suspicion. "all them things" suggests there was more. Being suspect is one thing but again, knowing for sure is another. ennis just did'nt want to acknowledge any of it or think about Jack with anyone else. Knowing about it would force Ennis to acknowledge his own faults regarding it. Yes, he was jeaulous, but he has to shift the blame onto some one else or he would have to admit to himself that Jack's infidelities were partly his own fault too.

I emphasize the sentence in boldface.  Perhaps it was facing up to his own shortcomings that Ennis feared the most...

[babytammy7]

Exactly rimasworld and tpe and thanks Baby Tammy.
 People say things while in the heat of and argument they don't really mean literally. Ennis may have FELT like harming Jack out of the hurt and pain, but just the title of the thread to me suggests  Ennis had suspected Jack was not totally faithful. Mexico was not his only suspicion. "all them things" suggests there was more. Being suspect is one thing but again, knowing for sure is another. ennis just did'nt want to acknowledge any of it or think about Jack with anyone else. Knowing about it would force Ennis to acknowledge his own faults regarding it. Yes, he was jeaulous, but he has to shift the blame onto some one else or he would have to admit to himself that Jack's infidelities were partly his own fault too.

Agree, agree.  

[sportstalk23]

What Ennis SHOULD have known was that every Randall ond Mexican hustler Jack consorted with was an attempt to find a surrogate for someone that Jack deemed irreplaceable.   The irony is that before the visit to LF, Ennis might not have realized who that someone was.

Bravo Tom  ( ( thats exactly how I feel about Jack going to Mexico or turning to Randall it was his needing something to occupy the pain of NOT BEING WITH ENNIS DEL MAR I never saw Randall as something serious even when Mr. Twist was explaining how Jack went from "I'm gonna bring down Ennis Del Mar and whip this ranch into shape", to "I'm bringing some divorced foreman to fix the ranch". At that moment Ennis might have thought  OMG I've lost Jack to someone else before he died maybe he did quit me, but then the shirts told Ennis no he never quit you I believe Jack had more faith in Ennis than Ennis had in himself.

[rimasworld]

Bravo Tom  ( ( thats exactly how I feel about Jack going to Mexico or turning to Randall it was his needing something to occupy the pain of NOT BEING WITH ENNIS DEL MAR I never saw Randall as something serious even when Mr. Twist was explaining how Jack went from "I'm gonna bring down Ennis Del Mar and whip this ranch into shape", to "I'm bringing some divorced foreman to fix the ranch". At that moment Ennis might have thought  OMG I've lost Jack to someone else before he died maybe he did quit me, but then the shirts told Ennis no he never quit you I believe Jack had more faith in Ennis than Ennis had in himself.

Yes all of these "things" were just temporary fill ins for Jack when he missed Ennis so bad he could hardly stand it. Ennis was his only option and I don't think he ever intended on living with another man anywhere. He said that because he was mad at and totally frustrated with Ennis and the entire situation at that point but he didn't mean a word of it. It would be Ennis or nobody. Many years ago he had given his heart and soul to the man he loved and that was Ennis. Nobody else could measure up, they all fell short.

[babytammy7]

Bravo Tom  ( ( thats exactly how I feel about Jack going to Mexico or turning to Randall it was his needing something to occupy the pain of NOT BEING WITH ENNIS DEL MAR I never saw Randall as something serious even when Mr. Twist was explaining how Jack went from "I'm gonna bring down Ennis Del Mar and whip this ranch into shape", to "I'm bringing some divorced foreman to fix the ranch". At that moment Ennis might have thought  OMG I've lost Jack to someone else before he died maybe he did quit me, but then the shirts told Ennis no he never quit you I believe Jack had more faith in Ennis than Ennis had in himself.

So beautiful, baby. I agree with you. 

[sportstalk23]

So beautiful, baby. I agree with you. 

  I couldnt believe I didnt see it sooner Tammy Jack always treated Ennis with so much love, respect and faith than anyone ever in his life it just jumps at you from the screen Jack was like you can do this-we can do this, but Ennis was trapped by what society says is immoral and poor Earl and Rich who were just living their lives not hurting anyone ,as a black woman from the south hell america which hasnt historically been great to people of color. My parents always said if somebody is going to take you out for their own bigoted reasons they go out living the life you deserve to have you will die with zero regrets, I'm sure regret, feeling cheated, and guilt are some of the things Ennis must feel after Jack's death thats why the thought of other men basically drove Ennis nuts, like this is what belongs to US and nobody else

[atalley]

I do believe that Jack knew that he was loved by Ennis before he died.  I often think of how Ennis was probably the last thing that Jack saw in his mind.

[myprivatejack]

I do believe that Jack knew that he was loved by Ennis before he died.  I often think of how Ennis was probably the last thing that Jack saw in his mind.

I'm absolutely sure that Ennis was the last memory Jack had in his mind before dying. :\'(  But I'm absolutely sure that,if this had happenned on the contrary,Jack had been the last memory and image in Ennis mind too...Because,even in spite of his denials,in spite of his more or less hidden homophobia,even if he didn't want to give it this name,Ennis was in love with Jack.And in spite of himself too...

[tpe]

Thanks friends!  Wonderful posts during the weekend! 

I guess after Ennis found the shirts, all them THINGS didn't matter that much anymore to him. 

[myprivatejack]

Thanks friends!  Wonderful posts during the weekend! 

I guess after Ennis found the shirts, all them THINGS didn't matter that much anymore to him. 

Of course not...I think that,in any case,the things that matters to him then were those ones he couldn't do anymore with Jack;the ones that could have brought more happy moments to both of them.Happiness that precisely these other things "he didn't know" had denied during almost 20 years.

[tpe]

Of course not...I think that,in any case,the things that matters to him then were those ones he couldn't do anymore with Jack;the ones that could have brought more happy moments to both of them.Happiness that precisely these other things "he didn't know" had denied during almost 20 years.

Was it good that in the end, he did got to know some of "them things"?  Surely, the Texas neighbor must have been a surprise to him.  Was it better that he got to know them?  It sounds like a self-fulfilling prophesy to me at this point, if you get my drift (about Jack getting killed if he should come to know them.)