Topic: Jack and other guys

[lacy8753]

I'm going out on a limb here but I watched my DVD yesterday and it struck me again.  Jack is not liked or even respected by other men. Is there a chance he is slightly effeminate and guys pick up on it and disrespect him for it? His own father hates him from the time he was a little boy. His father in law would pay him to leave his daughter-and rodeoing is not something to look down on in Texas. Why does he hate him? Jack is a good dad and a good (if not faithful) husband. Why does Lureen's father  dislike him so much?  And in the bar with the clown. Jack doesnt really get into his space but the clown seems to sense something about Jack and goes back to the other guys and seems to talk about Jack with them. And Randall seems to know that Jack is gay cause he comes on to him. How does he know that Jack is gay?  Reputation?
Why would Jack have a reputation? To me he is very masculine but maybe at times during the movie he's giving off another vibe-like he's too pretty or something. And last, who figures out that he is gay and deserves to die?
How do those pricks know? Jack tells his father he's coming up to his parents home with 2 different guys to live and work the ranch. Jack wouldnt have told his dad that if he thought it would be interpreted as a gay living situation. And that dosesnt seem to piss his father off-what pisses his father off is that Jack doesnt keep his word. Help me out here. I cant make sense of it.

[tpe]

There is a lot of stuff here. 

Jack was certainly liked by the the ranch foreman.  And, of course, he is liked by Ennis.  So, the implication is that he is not hated by all other men.  He is not liked by other men for different reasons.

For example, he does not get respect from the farmer clients at Lureen's office because they look down on rodeo f*ckups.

He is not liked by the rodeo clown because (presumably) he is straight, and he senses an erotic frisson from Jack that makes him uncomfortable.

He is not liked by Lureen's father because he thinks his daughter deserves better -- as far as social and monetary things go.

His not being liked by his father is a more complicated story.  His father seems to have decided for himself that Jack was not good helping out at the ranch.  But I am sure the real problem here is not with Jack, but with his father.

To tell his father that he was divorcing his wife and moving back in with a man -- sharing a cabin: I think that in John Twist's world, that is tantamount to admiting queerness.  IMO, John Twist knew, as much as his wife knew.

Gyllenhaal's Jack Twist has a lot of heart, sympathy, and angst.  This Jack Twist bears the unmistakable stamp of Jake Gyllenhaal's classic roles.

Some would interpret this projected persona as effeminacy ('the doe-eyed indie wimp', as some crass people are wont to call it.)  I call it sensitivity.    I call it receptivity.  Proulx calls it a 'quicksilver' quality.

Gyllenhaal's Jack Twist wears his heart in his sleeve.  He is therefore made vulnerable because of this.   Some of the characters naturally looked at this as a weakness.  But for Ledger's Ennis, this openness was the very kernel of his heart's desire.

This is why I love Jack.



 

[lacy8753]

There is a lot of stuff here. 

Jack was certainly liked by the the ranch foreman.  And, of course, he is liked by Ennis.  So, the implication is that he is not hated by all other men.  He is not liked by other men for different reasons.

For example, he does not get respect from the farmer clients at Lureen's office because they look down on rodeo f*ckups.

He is not liked by the rodeo clown because (presumably) he is straight, and he senses an erotic frisson from Jack that makes him uncomfortable.

He is not liked by Lureen's father because he thinks his daughter deserves better -- as far as social and monetary things go.

His not being liked by his father is a more complicated story.  His father seems to have decided for himself that Jack was not good helping out at the ranch.  But I am sure the real problem here is not with Jack, but with his father.

To tell his father that he was divorcing his wife and moving back in with a man -- sharing a cabin: I think that in John Twist's world, that is tantamount to admiting queerness.  IMO, John Twist knew, as much as his wife knew.

Gyllenhaal's Jack Twist has a lot of heart, sympathy, and angst.  This Jack Twist bears the unmistakable stamp of Jake Gyllenhaal's classic roles.

Some would interpret this projected persona as effeminacy ('the doe-eyed indie wimp', as some crass people are wont to call it.)  I call it sensitivity.    I call it receptivity.  Proulx calls it a 'quicksilver' quality.

Gyllenhaal's Jack Twist wears his heart in his sleeve.  He is therefore made vulnerable because of this.   Some of the characters naturally looked at this as a weakness.  But for Ledger's Ennis, this openness was the very kernel of his heart's desire.

This is why I love Jack.[/color]


  tpe-I agree with what you're saying but I guess I overstated my question. Did Jack, as endearing as he is, give off a gay vibe to the clown, to Randall, to his father in law, to his killers? Did Randall for exmple make eye contact with every attractive male he saw hoping to get lucky? Or did he pick up something from Jack?
 

[dalemidex]

Not to take this too far off topic, but elsewhere on this board there's a thread on the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator, a personality inventory system.   I think that Jack is an "ENFP", and in the post where I talk about it (reply #84 in that thread) I posted some highlights of the ENFP personality type from the book "Type Talk".    Among them:

Generally described as dynamic, enthusiastic, skilled with people, affirming and gregarious, they have exceptional capacity for dealing with a variety of people, events, or challenges at once.

This type has a high need to be affirming of others – and to be affirmed.  Craving this, they will overexert themselves – physically and psychologically – to please.  They may sometimes expend extra energy giving strokes and trying, at times with almost desperation – to get strokes in return. 

Because of their enthusiasm for life, it is easy for this type to rally support around exciting ideas or causes.  Unfortunately they make more starts than finishes. 

Gender differences can be significant for males because many of the qualities associated with this type (sociability, desire/need to please, intuition, spontaneity, concern for others) are seen as feminine.  As a result when a male ENFP “plays” into his natural preferences he can find himself somewhat outside of the male establishment.  Ironically, this may set him up to overcompensate and behave in ways atypical for his type.  For example, to be overcompetitive or argumentative.  Seeking approval he may get involved in contact sports or other “tough” activities.  


In a relationship, ENFP’s are rarely complacent.  While highly committed, they can never give up thinking  either “This relationship could be better if I worked harder” or “There’s a better relationship still waiting out there for me”. 

And how this fits into this thred....here's what I said about seeing Jack in this profile:

As for being sort of a fish out of water among men, could it be any clearer?  He was gregarious and successful in a persuasive and even a charismatic way...he should have been well-liked.  But yet he didn’t seem to have that unspoken manly respect of other cowboys, his customers, or his father in law.  A pissant, not a stud-duck.  As for the desperate need for affirmation, a less-driven type would have grown tired of the 3,000 mile round trip alone 2-3 times per year year after year after year.  Only approaching twenty years do we really see this taking its toll.  A more problem-solving type would have figured out another way.  But Jack was compelled.   I don’t think you can simply say “this was the great LOVE that drove him” for while that is true, many other "types" feeling the very same deep level of love for Ennis would have reacted differently over the course of nearly 20 years, either with a solution, or with turning away from that love, or becoming rigid, something else.  That need for affirmation – and the fear of losing it if he really DID make changes – were what drove his heel all those years.  He needed that so much – he even says “you don’t know how bad it gets” – that the safest thing to him was to keep the status quo and live on those dreams.  We see cracks at the end with Randy, but good God that was what, after more than ten years??  And one other thing about affirmations.  In spite of his feelings about his father, he STILL followed in his father’s footsteps of rodeo (a very macho sport, by the way) in seeking his dad’s affirmation.  Again, other types would probably have done differently.  Turned tail and severed the relationship.  Or rebelled.  Or dispised what his father did and deliberately chose something else. But Jack's need to get his dad's affirmation drove him into the same man-proving path as his father in spite of repeated negative feedback.  Poor Jack is like the abused dog, no matter how he's beaten he keeps coming right back.

I do think Jack was a fish out of water among men, even if he hadn't been anything but 100% straight. 

Here's a link to the thread if you're interested.

http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=1366.msg16004#msg16004

[tpe]

tpe-I agree with what you're saying but I guess I overstated my question. Did Jack, as endearing as he is, give off a gay vibe to the clown, to Randall, to his father in law, to his killers? Did Randall for exmple make eye contact with every attractive male he saw hoping to get lucky? Or did he pick up something from Jack?

Hello lacy8753.   reading through dalemidex, one get's a hint that the answers are indeed not that simple. 

As far as the gay clown was concerned, I do think Jack showed a physical hunger that was perceptible.  With Randall, the eye contact between the two of them at the beginning of the scene suggests the same hunger, at least to me.    When you are in a bar, I am sure subtle adjustments in body language and facial expressions are read with the same pinpoint accuracy.  It is more of instinctive want externalized -- what I guess what you would call vibe, or 'gaydar', as some people would call it.

My older firends assure me that before the 1960s, such subtlety and recognition in the communication of desire was not unheard of.  From some of the stories I hear, the ones shown in the movie may even be understated...

So yes, I do think there was a gay vibe.  When one hungers, it is bound to show.

[lacy8753]

Dalemidex -that was very enlightening-made a lot of sense. I always felt badly that Jack sought and never received paternal approval. But the Meyer-Briggs personality assessment really nails it.

TPE-Thanks for your addiitional help/  Lacy