Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: aintfoolin on Mar 10, 2007, 04:20 AM
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Let's face it. Ennis was not a patient man. He physically fought alot in this movie with everyone ,.as well as he did emotionally with himself. This is no kids' game. Alma, Jack, the bikers, the trucker etc... all suffered the wrath of Ennis's fists. In some cases without warning. Why was he so angry ? and at whom? I have yet to understand the punch to sweet Jack. The SS alludes to his being hit by his brother and him vowing to end this pattern of gettin beat up.( By kickin butt now , ask questions later. Any takers?
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Not really sure exactly what your asking here, but here's some thoughts.
“Ennis ran full throttle on all roads whether fence mending or money spending”
This is such an important aspect of this story and film I’m surprised it’s not discussed more. Of course MUCH has been written about male anger in general and how it is actualized in the modern world. IMHO Ennis is frustrated with himself (Annie has said it’s self-hate, I don’t think it seems that brutal, but maybe). It's not a kids' game, but like a child who lashes out physically when things don’t go his way, that’s what I see Ennis doing. Several times he cry's while acting out as well, just like a child. Almost every time his hetero side is threatened he reacts physically, even with the one(s) he loves. Thus the hit to Jack (and almost Alma later in the kitchen). He’s so frustrated that Jack made him love him, made him FEEL love for him, and now he has to go away and the real world comes back. So POW!
“Dad says, You got a take him unawares, don't say nothin’ to him, make him feel some pain, get out fast and keep doin’ it until he takes the message. Nothin’ like hurtin’ somebody to make him hear good.”
The critical alley scene at the end of summer '63 when he punches the wall, he’s bloodying himself because of his inner torment, trying to make himself “hear good”, but it won’t work. I think whoever came up with the tagline “A Force of Nature” really nailed it, this love inside him for Jack is something he can’t control, no amount of pain (his or someone else’s) will make it go away.
jackster
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Almost every time his hetero side is threatened he reacts physically, even with the one(s) he loves. Thus the hit to Jack (and almost Alma later in the kitchen). He’s so frustrated that Jack made him love him, made him FEEL love for him, and now he has to go away and the real world comes back. So POW!
jackster
That's how I see it - he turns violent when his masculinity is threatened, because he is afraid of that side of himself that has fallen in love with another man.
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Great thread, thanks aintfoolin:
I have yet to understand the punch to sweet Jack. The SS alludes to his being hit by his brother and him vowing to end this pattern of gettin beat up.( By kickin butt now , ask questions later. Any takers?
IMO:
When he struck Jack, that was understandable, not saying it was right but understandable. He was frustrated and angered by the thought of leaving Jack. When they were wrestling it was playful at first, but turned into something else, Ennis wanted to hurt Jack, not out of anger, but out of that sexual need, frustraton, love, and knowing he will never see him or have him again. All these feelings must have arose in him and was just too much for him consciously to accept. When Jack's knee hit his nose and the blood flowed Jack took the sleeve of his shirt, wiped it offered words of comfort to his lover. Ennis struck back in the only way he was taught, and trained to by giving Jack the pain he felt inside, but couldn't express verbally.
He didn't know why he did it, he could have felt threaten at that moment. But it bothered him years after that.
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Not really sure exactly what your asking here, but here's some thoughts.
“Ennis ran full throttle on all roads whether fence mending or money spending”
This is such an important aspect of this story and film I’m surprised it’s not discussed more. Of course MUCH has been written about male anger in general and how it is actualized in the modern world. IMHO Ennis is frustrated with himself (Annie has said it’s self-hate, I don’t think it seems that brutal, but maybe). It's not a kids' game, but like a child who lashes out physically when things don’t go his way, that’s what I see Ennis doing. Several times he cry's while acting out as well, just like a child. Almost every time his hetero side is threatened he reacts physically, even with the one(s) he loves. Thus the hit to Jack (and almost Alma later in the kitchen). He’s so frustrated that Jack made him love him, made him FEEL love for him, and now he has to go away and the real world comes back. So POW!
“Dad says, You got a take him unawares, don't say nothin’ to him, make him feel some pain, get out fast and keep doin’ it until he takes the message. Nothin’ like hurtin’ somebody to make him hear good.”
The critical alley scene at the end of summer '63 when he punches the wall, he’s bloodying himself because of his inner torment, trying to make himself “hear good”, but it won’t work. I think whoever came up with the tagline “A Force of Nature” really nailed it, this love inside him for Jack is something he can’t control, no amount of pain (his or someone else’s) will make it go away.
jackster
Great post Jackster :)
I always took the punch to Jack as Ennis not being able to articulate his many feelings about being made to leave BBM- the anger, the sense of loss.
I think that he had so many conflicting emotions inside of him after BBM- live the status quo, wanting to be with Jack, the fear of being with Jack etc and he had no way to express that nor anyone to express that too and it manifested itself physically.
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Please guys tell me if I reading this all wrong:
Maybe he doesn't have a hetero side, never did. But repressing his homosexuality, and his father sure help in that, with that nice side show to see Earl's body. If that doesn't make you repress a few things what will? (I don't know if I'm making sense) , Jack came along awaken something in Ennis that was there docile. It caught Ennis unawares, like that punch he gave to Jack. Proclaiming from the outset of their relationship, "I'm not queer", and deep inside saying "hey maybe I am. ", and fighting it from that moment on.
It had to be more in my mind, then the fear of being found out. The battle went too deep, too personal, way too desperate. his violence plays a major factor in his reactions to situations he couldn't handle, finely taught by his father.
That kind of battle could only last so long, without some other underlining factor. I think for Ennis is the realization of his homosexuality was something he couldn't come to terms with until the end, after Jack's death.
His anger, self hate, feeling short changed could be the direct result of his own inability to see who he truly was. He lived his life in the shadows, not staying in one job, living only for the time he would spent with Jack. Even then way out in the middle of nowhere, but not letting go of Jack.
The final confrontation was so telling. Ennis's separates himself from Jack with the "boys like you" remark. Why? Because Jack is more comfortable with who he is then Ennis, and Ennis could never be at that same point?
What I'm trying to and maybe clumsily is that Ennis's battle goes much deeper than just being found out, but avoiding coming to terms with himself, coming out , even to himself.
All of these things created the man that found himself in a situation he couldn't deal with, and resulted in what in the end was a sum total of his life two shirts hanging in a closet.
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I have yet to understand the punch to sweet Jack.
Here's my take: Ennis was lashing out at Jack because Jack was being "blamed" for stirring up emotions in Ennis that he had a hard time dealing with. Jack was being held responsible for the inner turmoil that was rising to the surface in Ennis. For Ennis, Jack was the source and catalyst for a wide array of intense feelings and emotions that were new to him - emotions that gave him great pleasure and pain, as well, hence the myriad of feelings and inner conflict.
Love and hate are two emotions that have deep similarities - they both tend to be very intense. Apathy is an emotion that is very different from love, not hate. It is not uncommon to see a "loving" relationship turn into a "hateful" one fairly quickly (e.g. one partner discovers the other is cheating, etc.). On the other hand, having a real "loving" relationship turn into an apathetic one is a slow process, which is indicative of how dissimilar the emotions are.
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Please guys tell me if I reading this all wrong:
Maybe he doesn't have a hetero side, never did. But repressing his homosexuality, and his father sure help in that, with that nice side show to see Earl's body. If that doesn't make you repress a few things what will? (I don't know if I'm making sense) , Jack came along awaken something in Ennis that was there docile. It caught Ennis unawares, like that punch he gave to Jack. Proclaiming from the outset of their relationship, "I'm not queer", and deep inside saying "hey maybe I am. ", and fighting it from that moment on.
It had to be more in my mind, then the fear of being found out. The battle went too deep, too personal, way too desperate. his violence plays a major factor in his reactions to situations he couldn't handle, finely taught by his father.
That kind of battle could only last so long, without some other underlining factor. I think for Ennis is the realization of his homosexuality was something he couldn't come to terms with until the end, after Jack's death.
His anger, self hate, feeling short changed could be the direct result of his own inability to see who he truly was. He lived his life in the shadows, not staying in one job, living only for the time he would spent with Jack. Even then way out in the middle of nowhere, but not letting go of Jack.
The final confrontation was so telling. Ennis's separates himself from Jack with the "boys like you" remark. Why? Because Jack is more comfortable with who he is then Ennis, and Ennis could never be at that same point?
What I'm trying to and maybe clumsily is that Ennis's battle goes much deeper than just being found out, but avoiding coming to terms with himself, coming out , even to himself.
All of these things created the man that found himself in a situation he couldn't deal with, and resulted in what in the end was a sum total of his life two shirts hanging in a closet.
Many commentators have early on mentioned that Ennis dealt with frustration and confusion by resorting to violent acts -- be it to himself (as in thr alley scene) or to others (Jack, or the truck driver.)
We should note that Ennis was like this even before meeting Jack. His loveless upbringing made him very stoic to hardships and pain, but I think it had the unfortunate effect of stunting him emotionally. The fact that he grew up having to act all grown up too early and not being nurtured in a loving family atmosphere explains a lot of this.
Yes, IMO, Ennis's battle goes much deeper than his inability to face up to his love for Jack. But THAT is a large part of it, to be sure.
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It's also true that those who are inarticulate often resort to violent action as the only way of expressing, conveying, even purging their emotions - and that's what Ennis does, I think.
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Quote from manhattangirl:
IMO:
When he struck Jack, that was understandable, not saying it was right but understandable. He was frustrated and angered by the thought of leaving Jack. When they were wrestling it was playful at first, but turned into something else, Ennis wanted to hurt Jack, not out of anger, but out of that sexual need, frustraton, love, and knowing he will never see him or have him again. All these feelings must have arose in him and was just too much for him consciously to accept. When Jack's knee hit his nose and the blood flowed Jack took the sleeve of his shirt, wiped it offered words of comfort to his lover. Ennis struck back in the only way he was taught, and trained to by giving Jack the pain he felt inside, but couldn't express verbally.
He didn't know why he did it, he could have felt threaten at that moment. But it bothered him years after that.
Quote from jackster:
Not really sure exactly what your asking here, but here's some thoughts.
“Ennis ran full throttle on all roads whether fence mending or money spending”
This is such an important aspect of this story and film I’m surprised it’s not discussed more. Of course MUCH has been written about male anger in general and how it is actualized in the modern world. IMHO Ennis is frustrated with himself (Annie has said it’s self-hate, I don’t think it seems that brutal, but maybe). It's not a kids' game, but like a child who lashes out physically when things don’t go his way, that’s what I see Ennis doing. Several times he cry's while acting out as well, just like a child. Almost every time his hetero side is threatened he reacts physically, even with the one(s) he loves. Thus the hit to Jack (and almost Alma later in the kitchen). He’s so frustrated that Jack made him love him, made him FEEL love for him, and now he has to go away and the real world comes back. So POW!
“Dad says, You got a take him unawares, don't say nothin’ to him, make him feel some pain, get out fast and keep doin’ it until he takes the message. Nothin’ like hurtin’ somebody to make him hear good.”
The critical alley scene at the end of summer '63 when he punches the wall, he’s bloodying himself because of his inner torment, trying to make himself “hear good”, but it won’t work. I think whoever came up with the tagline “A Force of Nature” really nailed it, this love inside him for Jack is something he can’t control, no amount of pain (his or someone else’s) will make it go away.
Well, as usual, by the time I get here it's all been said. ::) I thought these two posts said it really well and all of the posts seem to understand Ennis's fundamental personality and internal conflicts.
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Thank you all so much for these great enlightening posts. I now much better understand why he punched Jack the way he did I was particularly struck by the comment that Jack became the object of *blame* for those feelings Ennis was forced to aknowledge against his will. I suppose he was having a love-hate relationship with himself...and Jack?
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Thank you all so much for these great enlightening posts. I now much better understand why he punched Jack the way he did I was particularly struck by the comment that Jack became the object of *blame* for those feelings Ennis was forced to aknowledge against his will. I suppose he was having a love-hate relationship with himself...and Jack?
I think there was a degree of love-hate, but I think it was also about Ennis somehow feeling that he was held captive by his love for Jack. I don't think he really openly resented it, but I suspect that he did try to repress it as much as he could. Sure, his inability to meet more often in the later years was because of tightening financial/work-related reasons, but I cannot help but think that he also preferred it this way in order to "get away from himself", so to speak. In a way, Jack embodied "himself" is a very deep sense.
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So it was the loss of control over these feelings for Jack that he could not deal with. When he looked at Jack, he saw "himself" or what he could'nt accept about himself deep down. Although he loved Jack right? This would explain his denial I guess, but why continue it? What did Ennis fear the most ? Bodily harm? or his deep feelings for Jack? Jack was right to put the pressure on him at that last meeting as he sensed that Ennis was pulling further away and maybe gaining even more control over the relationship and the direction Ennis was taking them due to this fear and he was making Jack feel hope was slipping away. He did'nt want to loose Ennis, but maybe Jack should have put even more pressure delicately on Ennis to come clean about his deep-seated denial and conflict which was at the heart of Ennis's refusal to commit to their sweet life. He tried. I think as I have said before, Ennis wanted it, just had no idea how to get it except deny the feelings exsisted. The rest would have been easy compared to this. Surely Ennis would have had a sense of freedom from this tug of war within his soul that he's never known and would have Jack to thank for it. Just my thinkin.
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So it was the loss of control over these feelings for Jack that he could not deal with. When he looked at Jack, he saw "himself" or what he could'nt accept about himself deep down. Although he loved Jack right? This would explain his denial I guess, but why continue it? What did Ennis fear the most ? Bodily harm? or his deep feelings for Jack? Jack was right to put the pressure on him at that last meeting as he sensed that Ennis was pulling further away and maybe gaining even more control over the relationship and the direction Ennis was taking them due to this fear and he was making Jack feel hope was slipping away. He did'nt want to loose Ennis, but maybe Jack should have put even more pressure delicately on Ennis to come clean about his deep-seated denial and conflict which was at the heart of Ennis's refusal to commit to their sweet life. He tried. I think as I have said before, Ennis wanted it, just had no idea how to get it except deny the feelings exsisted. The rest would have been easy compared to this. Surely Ennis would have had a sense of freedom from this tug of war within his soul that he's never known and would have Jack to thank for it. Just my thinkin.
I had always thought that what Ennis feared the most was that part of himself that was homophobic. Part of his inner rage must certainly come from denial of such an integral part of oneself.
He certainly feared that open knowledge of their relationship would encounter stern disapproval and perhaps physical attack from society, but I think his greatest struggle was within himself and how he could come to grips with something that another part of him also strongly detested. The violence within him is thus explained by the internal conflicts, and not really by the external threats...
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It's also true that those who are inarticulate often resort to violent action as the only way of expressing, conveying, even purging their emotions - and that's what Ennis does, I think.
In addition to the above, it seems to me that fear also incites some people to violence. Certain homophobes, in today's world, for example....
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This is true. People who are ignorant and continue to be *stuck on stupid* mode concerning other s different from themselves very often resort to violent means in expressing themselves. But I think Ennis had a self-hatred at at least a part of himself. When he had the confrontation with Alma she spoke negative about he and Jack together referring to Jack as "Jack Nasty" indicating that somehow what he and Jack did was dirty or disgusting and forbidden. It was at these times when we see Ennis at his angriest. When his sexuality is questioned. Same with the bikers. It has something to do with Ennis's manhood in conflict with how he really saw himself I suppose. He takes *road-rage * to new level by attacking some guy through the window of his truck after furiously leaving Alma's Thankgiving dinner. Perhaps Ennis sees these people as the kind who would most likely harm he and Jack...( the tire-iron people ) if you will if they got the chance. . Anyone who posed a threat to his real inner feelings became a threat to he and Jack's love. It's part of his feirce posseiveness and protectiveness of Jack . I feel sometimes maybe it's Ennis's way of uncontiouslessly saying f--ck you to the world ." I love Jack no matter what you think about it". Apart of him did anyway . He's complicated that way but to Ennis action speaks louder than words. Kicking someone's ass over it came easily for him.
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This is true. People who are ignorant and continue to be *stuck on stupid* mode concerning other s different from themselves very often resort to violent means in expressing themselves. But I think Ennis had a self-hatred at at least a part of himself. When he had the confrontation with Alma she spoke negative about he and Jack together referring to Jack as "Jack Nasty" indicating that somehow what he and Jack did was dirty or disgusting and forbidden. It was at these times when we see Ennis at his angriest. When his sexuality is questioned. Same with the bikers. It has something to do with Ennis's manhood in conflict with how he really saw himself I suppose. He takes *road-rage * to new level by attacking some guy through the window of his truck after furiously leaving Alma's Thankgiving dinner. Perhaps Ennis sees these people as the kind who would most likely harm he and Jack...( the tire-iron people ) if you will if they got the chance. . Anyone who posed a threat to his real inner feelings became a threat to he and Jack's love. It's part of his feirce posseiveness and protectiveness of Jack . I feel sometimes maybe it's Ennis's way of uncontiouslessly saying f--ck you to the world ." I love Jack no matter what you think about it". Apart of him did anyway . He's complicated that way but to Ennis action speaks louder than words. Kicking someone's ass over it came easily for him.
I guess in this regard, Ennis is no different from many people who lash out against people when they cannot come to grips with their own internal turnoil. It is a knee-jerk reaction, I suppose. It is a kind of protest -- a protest against a sense of helplessness.
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Perhaps it is also a survival instinct, protection of one's personal deep seeded pride in his case. I like the way you put it. A protest against helplessness. Beautifully put. I think this was built into Ennis as a natrual instinct as in all of us , but reinforced in Ennis through his childhood traumas. His kick butt and ask questions later is evidence of this i feel. It's like *don't f-ck with me ,and definitly don't mess with Jack* or you'll be dealt with in a violent manner. The part of him that can't deny ( though he tries) his deep love for Jack is the same part that is aggressively protective of he and Jack's love.Anyone who threatens this becomes a victim sometimes even indirectly as in the case with the unsuspecting guy in the truck after his Thanksgiving day fight with Alma.
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I find these posts so interesting. Ennis is a real contradiction. He's big, tough, a brawler with no fear. Kicking butt taking names in a way. Then this man almost cowers with fear of being found out. I don't get it.
It doesn't make sense. Why didn't he take this aggressive nature in living with Jack, loving him, demolishing anyone who get in the way. True, he was very possessive and protective of Jack when he's with him, Ennis doesn't share, not even having breakfast with Alma, when they came back from the motel. But he'd stop at the idea of living with him.
He'd puts his neck out but so far. Not far enough to live with Jack, to love him openly. When pushed by Jack to live together Ennis tells the story of Earl and Rich as a reason not to be open.
Ennis would threaten Alma, threaten Jack, Kick two big bikers butts, an unsuspecting soul who almost hit him with a truck. Then in turn, would look suspiciously at a passing car, think people know about them, meets Jack out in the middle of no where. Ennis is a deeply complicated person or really crazy.
Poor Jack, he stayed with him for twenty years, if that's not love, what is it?
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Ennis is a deeply complicated person or really crazy.
Yeah, manhattangirl, this is exactly why I find Ennis so compelling and to me the more interesting character. No I don't think he's crazy. But I'm left asking WHY? so many times with ol' E. And the greatness of Annie's writing is such that Ennis's story doesn't end (like Jack's), so we're all left with an incomplete story that makes it all the more tantilizing. Like you say here's a guy beatin' (or wanting to beat) the s**t outta' not a few people, but who we see crying five times! Even the way the SS begins with Ennis years later still dreaming about Jack and then ends with that "the pillow sometimes wet, sometimes the sheets" shows he's still crying, but also still having other, shall we say, intense emotions for Jack. Complicated. Very.
jackster
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Perhaps it is also a survival instinct, protection of one's personal deep seeded pride in his case. I like the way you put it. A protest against helplessness. Beautifully put. I think this was built into Ennis as a natrual instinct as in all of us , but reinforced in Ennis through his childhood traumas. His kick butt and ask questions later is evidence of this i feel. It's like *don't f-ck with me ,and definitly don't mess with Jack* or you'll be dealt with in a violent manner. The part of him that can't deny ( though he tries) his deep love for Jack is the same part that is aggressively protective of he and Jack's love.Anyone who threatens this becomes a victim sometimes even indirectly as in the case with the unsuspecting guy in the truck after his Thanksgiving day fight with Alma.
It is also most certainly a matter of pride. I think Ennis, for all his internal anger, had a measure of self respect that sprung out of a simple life of hardship and self-determination. He had learned to fight his own battles when he had lost his parents.
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I find these posts so interesting. Ennis is a real contradiction. He's big, tough, a brawler with no fear. Kicking butt taking names in a way. Then this man almost cowers with fear of being found out. I don't get it.
It doesn't make sense. Why didn't he take this aggressive nature in living with Jack, loving him, demolishing anyone who get in the way. True, he was very possessive and protective of Jack when he's with him, Ennis doesn't share, not even having breakfast with Alma, when they came back from the motel. But he'd stop at the idea of living with him.
He'd puts his neck out but so far. Not far enough to live with Jack, to love him openly. When pushed by Jack to live together Ennis tells the story of Earl and Rich as a reason not to be open.
Ennis would threaten Alma, threaten Jack, Kick two big bikers butts, an unsuspecting soul who almost hit him with a truck. Then in turn, would look suspiciously at a passing car, think people know about them, meets Jack out in the middle of no where. Ennis is a deeply complicated person or really crazy.
Poor Jack, he stayed with him for twenty years, if that's not love, what is it?
THis is a good question. It is a bit hard to answer directly, I guess. But your observation is indeed intriguing: why didn't all this pent-up aggressiveness not manifest itself in Ennis's relationship with Jack. I guess a partial answer is that half of him hated himself for loving another man, and that in this instance, it was a struggle within himself. He was used up by his own inner conflicts, and he therefore could not act more aggressively in pursuing a love that a part of him could not live without, and another part could not accept.
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Yeah, manhattangirl, this is exactly why I find Ennis so compelling and to me the more interesting character. No I don't think he's crazy. But I'm left asking WHY? so many times with ol' E. And the greatness of Annie's writing is such that Ennis's story doesn't end (like Jack's), so we're all left with an incomplete story that makes it all the more tantilizing. Like you say here's a guy beatin' (or wanting to beat) the s**t outta' not a few people, but who we see crying five times! Even the way the SS begins with Ennis years later still dreaming about Jack and then ends with that "the pillow sometimes wet, sometimes the sheets" shows he's still crying, but also still having other, shall we say, intense emotions for Jack. Complicated. Very.
jackster
Yes, by his very weakness and self-contradiction, he becomes more compelling. It is his inner conflict that drives the story to its tragic end. Ennis is a great anti-hero, and like all great anti-heroes, he gains our sympathy and compassion by his very weaknesses and conflicts. His bursts of anger (some of them like in the 4th of July scene) can sometimes be heroic in color, but in the end, it is not this that defines him.
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in the 4th of July fight Alma is seen almost cowering and begging Ennis to "let's just move somewhere else" awy from the bikers who were saying some pretty mean stuff. If Jack was there with him, things would have turned out alot differently in terms of that fight. Jack certainly would have defended Ennis and / or helped him kick some butt. Ennis held his own though. Again, his manhood is questioned and tested and he's fighting.
It's too bad he could'nt be there for Jack like this in his time of need. Just a wish.
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It struck me full force when I watched the movie the other night ( for the umpteenth time!) how violent Ennis really was -- how he lived with his temper just on the edge. He really needed some anger management therapy if anyone ever did. I know we've discussed his anger in a lot of the threads, but there's always room for more speculation about it.
For a long time, I couldn't understand Ennis punching Jack, but I now take it that Ennis was super pissed when he came down from the snowy mountain and saw Jack dissembling the tent. When Jack said Aguirre told them to bring the sheep down, Ennis got mad. He never lightened up, in my opinion. When Jack started playing with him with the lasso, Ennis was still PO'd -- not at Jack, but at Aguirre - at losing a month's pay - at having to come down from this idyllic place to face reality once again - and, of course, to be leaving Jack. None of these situation sat well with Ennis. So, when Jack started getting too close, too physical, Ennis just blew. Lashing out physically was the only way Ennis really knew of letting off steam. The part of a mature individual that allows them to discipline themselves to hide or dissolve their anger never developed in Ennis. He had no alternative but to lash out. I always have to remember that he really was not raised by anyone. He raised himself from the time his folks died. His sister and brother fed him and housed him, but didn't teach him the lessons he needed to learn about self-control. So, when he got upset, it came out in unmitigated physical punishment of whomever was near him. When he stormed out of Alma's house after Thanksgiving dinner, he was so angry at her, managed to keep himself from hitting Alma, but had to hit someone. The pickup truck driver was handy, so he got Ennis's ire. (Unfortunately for Ennis, he had met his match with that guy and got beaten up.)
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He's also generally inarticulate, and inarticulate people can't let their feelings off in words, so they resort to violence instead. He did the sme with the bikers on July 4th - no real attempt at discussion - what he said was concfrontational and immediately follwed by threats and violence, which clearly frightened Alma. I thin she's seen him like that before - she's very anxious to move away, as if she's afraid of what he might do otherwise.
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in the 4th of July fight Alma is seen almost cowering and begging Ennis to "let's just move somewhere else" awy from the bikers who were saying some pretty mean stuff. If Jack was there with him, things would have turned out alot differently in terms of that fight. Jack certainly would have defended Ennis and / or helped him kick some butt. Ennis held his own though. Again, his manhood is questioned and tested and he's fighting.
It's too bad he could'nt be there for Jack like this in his time of need. Just a wish.
The screenplay also indicates that this is the first time Alma sees a totally different side of Ennis -- his pent-up rage. I think Alma also came to live in fear of these rages.
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It struck me full force when I watched the movie the other night ( for the umpteenth time!) how violent Ennis really was -- how he lived with his temper just on the edge. He really needed some anger management therapy if anyone ever did. I know we've discussed his anger in a lot of the threads, but there's always room for more speculation about it.
For a long time, I couldn't understand Ennis punching Jack, but I now take it that Ennis was super pissed when he came down from the snowy mountain and saw Jack dissembling the tent. When Jack said Aguirre told them to bring the sheep down, Ennis got mad. He never lightened up, in my opinion. When Jack started playing with him with the lasso, Ennis was still PO'd -- not at Jack, but at Aguirre - at losing a month's pay - at having to come down from this idyllic place to face reality once again - and, of course, to be leaving Jack. None of these situation sat well with Ennis. So, when Jack started getting too close, too physical, Ennis just blew. Lashing out physically was the only way Ennis really knew of letting off steam. The part of a mature individual that allows them to discipline themselves to hide or dissolve their anger never developed in Ennis. He had no alternative but to lash out. I always have to remember that he really was not raised by anyone. He raised himself from the time his folks died. His sister and brother fed him and housed him, but didn't teach him the lessons he needed to learn about self-control. So, when he got upset, it came out in unmitigated physical punishment of whomever was near him. When he stormed out of Alma's house after Thanksgiving dinner, he was so angry at her, managed to keep himself from hitting Alma, but had to hit someone. The pickup truck driver was handy, so he got Ennis's ire. (Unfortunately for Ennis, he had met his match with that guy and got beaten up.)
I think Jack understood Ennis's rages, and he didn't seem to fear it.
Ennis seemed to have been guilt-ridden with that punch he administered to Jack. I guess Jack was different, or perhaps Ennis was quick to anger but invariably regretted his actions.
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That's how I see it - he turns violent when his masculinity is threatened, because he is afraid of that side of himself that has fallen in love with another man.
I got behind on this wonderful topic and these threads. This is another good one. And this point of why Ennis lashes out makes so much sense. Both that his control breaks like a child, and that he goes ballistic when his masculinity is threatened. Such fear of the truth inside him.
kathy
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Great thread, thanks aintfoolin:
IMO:
When he struck Jack, that was understandable, not saying it was right but understandable. He was frustrated and angered by the thought of leaving Jack. When they were wrestling it was playful at first, but turned into something else, Ennis wanted to hurt Jack, not out of anger, but out of that sexual need, frustraton, love, and knowing he will never see him or have him again. All these feelings must have arose in him and was just too much for him consciously to accept. When Jack's knee hit his nose and the blood flowed Jack took the sleeve of his shirt, wiped it offered words of comfort to his lover. Ennis struck back in the only way he was taught, and trained to by giving Jack the pain he felt inside, but couldn't express verbally.
He didn't know why he did it, he could have felt threaten at that moment. But it bothered him years after that.
Interesting, this -- Ennis gave Jack pain, gave Jack the pain he himself felt, when he really wanted to give him the love he felt.
kathy
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I think there was a degree of love-hate, but I think it was also about Ennis somehow feeling that he was held captive by his love for Jack. I don't think he really openly resented it, but I suspect that he did try to repress it as much as he could. Sure, his inability to meet more often in the later years was because of tightening financial/work-related reasons, but I cannot help but think that he also preferred it this way in order to "get away from himself", so to speak. In a way, Jack embodied "himself" is a very deep sense.
What a complex man is Ennis -- complex, yet his feelings are actually so simple and basic. Simple, but so against what he was prepared for since early on. I like what you say, tpe, about Jack embodying Ennis himself -- Jack representing everything inside Ennis that he hated yet somehow let him feel love at the same time. And also, manhattangirl, your comment about Ennis separating himself from Jack with the "boys like you" comment -- not that he did not love a man like Jack did, but that Jack accepted it about himself.
Can you imagine two men like Ennis together? Never work. Two men like Jack together, though...
kathy
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Great posts, all of you. A most interesting subject, Ennis and his physicalness. Talking here about his anger and pent-up rages, but we've talked in other threads about how he also expresses himself physically in other ways, physically rather than in words. All the ways he wants to please Jack, for instance.
Also I love the idea that Ennis's raging against Alma and the truck driver, for example, being his way of protecting Jack's "honor," defending what he and Jack had.
Thinking about Ennis and his sad challenges -- his having basically raised himself, I think it was tpe said. And tpe, I loved what you said about Jack not being afraid of Ennis's physicality. That's something that drew me to these two together from the first viewing. Not to say Ennis's psychoemotional state was healthy, but Jack knew how to deal with it, as opposed to Alma, who could never be really comfortable with or trusting of him.
kathy
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Great posts, all of you. A most interesting subject, Ennis and his physicalness. Talking here about his anger and pent-up rages, but we've talked in other threads about how he also expresses himself physically in other ways, physically rather than in words. All the ways he wants to please Jack, for instance.
Also I love the idea that Ennis's raging against Alma and the truck driver, for example, being his way of protecting Jack's "honor," defending what he and Jack had.
Thinking about Ennis and his sad challenges -- his having basically raised himself, I think it was tpe said. And tpe, I loved what you said about Jack not being afraid of Ennis's physicality. That's something that drew me to these two together from the first viewing. Not to say Ennis's psychoemotional state was healthy, but Jack knew how to deal with it, as opposed to Alma, who could never be really comfortable with or trusting of him.
kathy
Thanks kathy. I think that was what distinguished Jack and Alma: Jack was willing to engage Ennis, even on the physical level, if need be. Alma hid everything she knew deep within her, and she must have suffered a great deal because of this.
Alma was certainly afraid of Ennis, to a certain level, no? I recall the comment in the screenplay where Alma is taken completely by surprise with Ennis's rage in the July 4 scene. I think the implication was that she had never known this side of Ennis before, and that she feared it. It was probably part of the reason why she kept things to herself, no?
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It must have shocked her. I think she was afraid of him too. In the grocery store scene Alma asks " what about my job?" The look he gave her spoke volumes and of course has to take the girls off his hands. And again when he demanded she stay home and serve dinner.... &*&!!!
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It must have shocked her. I think she was afraid of him too. In the grocery store scene Alma asks " what about my job?" The look he gave her spoke volumes and of course has to take the girls off his hands. And again when he demanded she stay home and serve dinner.... &*&!!!
Yes, I think that look he gave her at the grocery did scare her. But it seems that she lost a bit of her fear after the reunion, as is evident in the "supper's on the stove" scene. But she certainly was still inwardly in fear of him: witness Alma quickly returning Jack's postcard in the stack of new mail when she heard Ennis's truck pulling in the driveway.
With Jack, it certainly wasn't fear that kept him from repeating the way he felt for Ennis and his desire to be together.
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Thanks kathy. I think that was what distinguished Jack and Alma: Jack was willing to engage Ennis, even on the physical level, if need be. Alma hid everything she knew deep within her, and she must have suffered a great deal because of this.
Alma was certainly afraid of Ennis, to a certain level, no? I recall the comment in the screenplay where Alma is taken completely by surprise with Ennis's rage in the July 4 scene. I think the implication was that she had never known this side of Ennis before, and that she feared it. It was probably part of the reason why she kept things to herself, no?
Yes, that is so sad, that Alma kept things to herself out of fear of Ennis. But unfortunately, that is the way of things as often as not. This is why some people might have an idealized view of same-sex relationships -- that those kinds of games and dynamics don't go on. However, they do go on. But that's not exactly on this topic. Or maybe it is. Which I was just talking about in the "dominance" thread. How Jack has absolutely no fear of Ennis's anger or rage or violence. I wish Jack had some more of the same himself! He finally did at the end, and things would finally have changed I think, after Jack let Ennis know he didn't want to take it anymore...and Ennis couldn't stand it anymore...and it just breaks my heart that they didn't get to find out how they might have finally come together.
More on this later I think. Gotta go.
kathy
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Yes, that is so sad, that Alma kept things to herself out of fear of Ennis. But unfortunately, that is the way of things as often as not. This is why some people might have an idealized view of same-sex relationships -- that those kinds of games and dynamics don't go on. However, they do go on. But that's not exactly on this topic. Or maybe it is. Which I was just talking about in the "dominance" thread. How Jack has absolutely no fear of Ennis's anger or rage or violence. I wish Jack had some more of the same himself! He finally did at the end, and things would finally have changed I think, after Jack let Ennis know he didn't want to take it anymore...and Ennis couldn't stand it anymore...and it just breaks my heart that they didn't get to find out how they might have finally come together.
More on this later I think. Gotta go.
kathy
They indeed go on in same-sex relationships.
And yes, perhaps Jack should have had a bit more of the Anger that Ennis seemed to thrive on. But the power of Jack's pent-up anger and frustration, finally realized in the last meeting, did seem to overpower Ennis. I think it was because a righteous anger -- and anger Ennis recognized to be rooted in a valid sense of hurt and deprivation. Ennis broke down because he knew that Jack's anger in that last meeting was grounded on truth, and the truth can kill as much as it can set you free.
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Jack being another man was not intimidated by Ennis's rages. He was more equal physcally to Ennis and more importantly stronger in a mental and emotional sense. He could probably hold his own if it came down to a knock-down drag out fight and go toe to toe with Ennis, but unlike Alma his fear came more from an emotional stand point for the most part IMO. His fear was loosing Ennis if he came on too strong. Not to take anything away from her undeserved suffering, Alma saw futility and finally moved on, Jack saw futility and hung around for 20 years in spite of it. at the same time juggling a failed marriage to Lureen in the process. Had he not understood Ennis's mindset when he got punched himself things may have had a different outcome before he left the mountain. Ennis would have sported a black eye too. Jack was'nt no slouch or wimp physically. far from it. The wrestling scene was evidence of that IMO. Anyway , self- discipline was not a priority in moments of threatened manhood for Ennis. Once he got pumped up, he was on a mission. talking him down? ....Forget about it. My thinkin.
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Jack being another man was not intimidated by Ennis's rages. He was more equal physcally to Ennis and more importantly stronger in a mental and emotional sense. He could probably hold his own if it came down to a knock-down drag out fight and go toe to toe with Ennis, but unlike Alma his fear came more from an emotional stand point for the most part IMO. His fear was loosing Ennis if he came on too strong. Not to take anything away from her undeserved suffering, Alma saw futility and finally moved on, Jack saw futility and hung around for 20 years in spite of it. at the same time juggling a failed marriage to Lureen in the process. Had he not understood Ennis's mindset when he got punched himself things may have had a different outcome before he left the mountain. Ennis would have sported a black eye too. Jack was'nt no slouch or wimp physically. far from it. The wrestling scene was evidence of that IMO. Anyway , self- discipline was not a priority in moments of threatened manhood for Ennis. Once he got pumped up, he was on a mission. talking him down? ....Forget about it. My thinkin.
Precisely. In many ways, Jack was better positioned to deal with Ennis's rages on his own terms, although he opted not to be confrontational out of love. Remember the scene where Jack tries to make Ennis think about moving away and is rebuffed? Ennis would have proabably been in a rage if he were in Jack's position, but Jack just chose to walk away...
Alam's is a totally different affair. I think she was initially not in a position to deal with such rages. Remember the Thanksgiving confrontation? There was fear and anger in her face when she threatened to call Monroe. Even when she was married to someone else, she still feared Ennis...
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Precisely. In many ways, Jack was better positioned to deal with Ennis's rages on his own terms, although he opted not to be confrontational out of love. Remember the scene where Jack tries to make Ennis think about moving away and is rebuffed? Ennis would have proabably been in a rage if he were in Jack's position, but Jack just chose to walk away...
Alam's is a totally different affair. I think she was initially not in a position to deal with such rages. Remember the Thanksgiving confrontation? There was fear and anger in her face when she threatened to call Monroe. Even when she was married to someone else, she still feared Ennis...
I agree with you tpe,
I also remember the scene at the fireworks, Alma was more afraid of Ennis then the two jerks he punched out. Jack could deal with Ennis. That punch at the end of the first summer taught Jack a lot, so in a way at any given moment he knew Ennis could lash out. The final confrontation Jack was prepared for anything, but he said what he had to. He looked Ennis in the eye, and even after the threat, Jack still told Ennis how he felt, but what did Ennis do he broke down.
Jack was Ennis's heart, I don't think was any way he would have hurt him, he would have hurt himself first, and often times did when it came to Jack.
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Ennis is frightening because he is strong but, when in a rage, uncontrolled. That in turn comes from the fact that he can't articulate his emotions and in any case where Jack is concerned feels he has to repress them. Eventually the pressure builds, the seal gives way, and the volcano erupts. That's why he attacked Jack before they left Brokeback, why he goes for the two bikers and the man outside the bar. It's interesting that in the final confrontation scene he tries to explain himself for the first time; it's also the first time he doesn't lash out but collapses in tears.
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I think Jack knew Ennis very well . He was'nt scared of Ennis's threat. in fact he simply called Ennis's bluff. Ennis was puttin on the tough act gettin in Jacks face talking about death threats and so forth But Jack never flinched. He just shook his head and laid Ennis out, not with fists but with words. He showed Ennis that he was partly responsible for "all them things" including the Mexican trip debaucle. Jack meant business when he told Ennis " try this one, and I'll say it one time" He brought Ennis back into reality with his words, a display of Jack's strenghth and physical self-disciline. could a punched Ennis and got him to back up but he did'nt. Wasn't gonna be pushed around either. He got his point across and I did'nt hear Ennis denying anything after that. No arguement there. what the hell could he say at that point ? He knew Jack was right though he did try to explain his sacrifices through the years by saying It's cause a you I'm like this, nothin and nowhere" Sounds like blame to me. He was mad about gettin exposed like this , shoving Jack away , then just dissolved into tears. Jack was mad about having been put in this position to say those words. Ennis really could'nt take it .Was it really Jack's fault? What about Jack's sacrifices? No I don't think so , IMO At least Jack had a plan , a good one that would benefit them both. Him and Ennis could have been sittin pretty. Ennis had no one to blame for his circumstances but himself. Jack said it and I agree with him. Ennis felt action spoke louder than words but in this case a little more action from Ennis was due Jack. I must point out this scene was excellently acted out by Jake and Heath. Thumbs up to both. Rant over.
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Ennis is frightening because he is strong but, when in a rage, uncontrolled. That in turn comes from the fact that he can't articulate his emotions and in any case where Jack is concerned feels he has to repress them. Eventually the pressure builds, the seal gives way, and the volcano erupts. That's why he attacked Jack before they left Brokeback, why he goes for the two bikers and the man outside the bar. It's interesting that in the final confrontation scene he tries to explain himself for the first time; it's also the first time he doesn't lash out but collapses in tears.
So true, WW. And everything you said also, aintfoolin. That was so powerful, that confrontation, the way Jack worked Ennis finally -- as you said, with words Ennis couldn't deny. So that finally Ennis was coming from the truth inside himself and not acting it out in his old ways. This truly could have been the turning point for them, if only...
kathy
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I think Jack knew Ennis very well. He wasn't scared of Ennis's threat, in fact he simply called Ennis's bluff. Ennis was puttin on the tough act gettin in Jacks face talking about death threats and so forth But Jack never flinched. He just shook his head and laid Ennis out, not with fists but with words. He showed Ennis that he was partly responsible for "all them things" including the Mexican trip debaucle. Jack meant business when he told Ennis "try this one, and I'll say it one time" He brought Ennis back into reality with his words, a display of Jack's strenghth and physical self-disciline, could a punched Ennis and got him to back up but he didn't. Wasn't gonna be pushed around either. He got his point across and I didn't hear Ennis denying anything after that. No arguement there, what the hell could he say at that point? He knew Jack was right though he did try to explain his sacrifices through the years by saying It's cause a you I'm like this, nothin and nowhere" Sounds like blame to me. He was mad about gettin exposed like this, shoving Jack away, then just dissolved into tears. Jack was mad about having been put in this position to say those words. Ennis really couldn't take it. Was it really Jack's fault? What about Jack's sacrifices? No I don't think so, IMO At least Jack had a plan, a good one that would benefit them both. Him and Ennis could have been sittin pretty. Ennis had no one to blame for his circumstances but himself. Jack said it and I agree with him. Ennis felt action spoke louder than words but in this case a little more action from Ennis was due Jack. I must point out this scene was excellently acted out by Jake and Heath. Thumbs up to both. Rant over.
As usual aintfoolin', you've spelled out this delicate interplay between Ennis n' Jack very well, its no rant. I'm with you most of the way up to the point of sittin' pretty. Somewhat OT but it seems the assumption is (not just you) that IF Ennis had gone to live with Jack everything woulda' been just fine. I'm not sure this is the case, Jack was killed, apparently for messin' with Randall (just what Ennis was afraid of) and Randall wasn't able to protect him, and that was in TX. And just to mix reality with fiction, Matthew Sheppard was strung up in WY just a few years after the SS was written. So I can't make that leap to "if only they had been together Jack wouldn't be dead". I think one of points AP was trying to make was either way it was possibly going to be bad for two guys livin' together out there. My rant.
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I agree with you tpe,
I also remember the scene at the fireworks, Alma was more afraid of Ennis then the two jerks he punched out. Jack could deal with Ennis. That punch at the end of the first summer taught Jack a lot, so in a way at any given moment he knew Ennis could lash out. The final confrontation Jack was prepared for anything, but he said what he had to. He looked Ennis in the eye, and even after the threat, Jack still told Ennis how he felt, but what did Ennis do he broke down.
Jack was Ennis's heart, I don't think was any way he would have hurt him, he would have hurt himself first, and often times did when it came to Jack.
I think what Ennis was afraid of is his impulsiveness when it comes to his rages. I do think he won't knowingly huurt Jack, although it is hard to tell what could have happened in a fit of jealous rage if Ennis found out about Randall.
If he would have seriously hurt Jack, he probably would have been guilt-ridden, or even self-destructive.
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As usual aintfoolin', you've spelled out this delicate interplay between Ennis n' Jack very well, its no rant. I'm with you most of the way up to the point of sittin' pretty. Somewhat OT but it seems the assumption is (not just you) that IF Ennis had gone to live with Jack everything woulda' been just fine. I'm not sure this is the case, Jack was killed, apparently for messin' with Randall (just what Ennis was afraid of) and Randall wasn't able to protect him, and that was in TX. And just to mix reality with fiction, Matthew Sheppard was strung up in WY just a few years after the SS was written. So I can't make that leap to "if only they had been together Jack wouldn't be dead". I think one of points AP was trying to make was either way it was possibly going to be bad for two guys livin' together out there. My rant.
I don't tend to think that Ennis could "protect" Jack necessarily, but I just would have liked them to have been closer, if not living together, or nearly so. Then they might have gone through together the dangers that were out there for boys like them. Makes the tragedy even worse, that Ennis didn't even know it at the time that Jack had been killed.
kathy
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I don't tend to think that Ennis could "protect" Jack necessarily, but I just would have liked them to have been closer, if not living together, or nearly so. Then they might have gone through together the dangers that were out there for boys like them. Makes the tragedy even worse, that Ennis didn't even know it at the time that Jack had been killed.
kathy
True.
Ennis and Jack were still relatively young -- not that tough old birds that Earl and Rich had become. They still could have put out a fight, and I suspect that people would think twice when confronted by someone like Ennis.
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Strength in numbers - yes, the two of them together could surely have defended each other. I wonder if Earl and Rich were picked on just because they were older and therefore vulnerable - perhaps confronted by two young strong men, one of whom packed a mean punch and didn't care who he used it on, the homophobes might have backed off?
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Strength in numbers - yes, the two of them together could surely have defended each other. I wonder if Earl and Rich were picked on just because they were older and therefore vulnerable - perhaps confronted by two young strong men, one of whom packed a mean punch and didn't care who he used it on, the homophobes might have backed off?
I thought that their age was part of this -- they were easier to pick on. IN the case of Ennis, I think people would think twice before trying a similar thing on him...
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I never thought of this, Age may very well have played a part in Earl and Rich's cases. Certainly these were two strong men who could do alot of damage if threatened in any way. To be at the business end of Ennis's double barrel shotgun would not sit well with anyone... even the local homophobes. And Jack? well I would'nt wanna tangle with this guy either. They have a right to defend themselves in any case so any one who dares to raise the ire in either one of these two is asking for major problems imo.
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Remember the two bikers, and he laid them out all by his lonesome. Imagine if he was defending Jack.? Imagine both fighting them off, Oh, I get all tinglely thinking about it. IMSW (in my own sick way).
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Don't think you'd be fighting them off, then, manhattangirl! So *o)rry,
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Now that's something I wasn't even thinking about.
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Remember the two bikers, and he laid them out all by his lonesome.
'Course Ennis wasn't invinceble, remember the "Hey asshole, watch where your goin' " Thanksgiving fight, when Ennis picked on the wrong guy. The big problem is they can't be together all the time and there are some really wide open, lonely places out west. Imagine the pain of coming home from a long day (or two) rounding up cattle out on the range and finding Jack had some "visitors".
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I know, I know, Ennis was not invincible, and Jack at no time shown to be prone to that same violent behavior. This was just a little passing thought I had, a little fantasy of my own. Seeing Ennis and Jack in good knock down drag out, with a couple knuckleheads like the bikers, sorry if I upset anyone.
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Ennis would have certainly put up a fight, but even he can't do anything against trickery.
Part of the reason why Jack was killed all to easily (assuming that this scene indeed occur, and not just in Ennis's imagination) was that there was the element of surprise.
I could see both of them being ambushed and they would have been helpless or at least at a great disadvantage...
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Anyway the ambush shown was three on one, one armed with a tire iron, one unarmed. Not good odds, specially when you're taken by surprise. Jack had to have been tough when he was working on farms and rodeoing, but I wonder whether he was ever a fighter? He never provokes the fights with Ennis up on the montain and is never shown fighting again, whereas Ennis did and is.
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Surprise is certainly a strong element of this attack. However, I also think Jack may have had a bit of a fatalistic attitude when he realized what was going down. This was EXACTLY what Ennis had warned him about. Surely Ennis flashed before his eyes, along with all his warnings. Maybe Jack thought the attack was inevitable. Maybe he ever thought in a tiny way that he deserved the beating. I know that's a disturbing thought, but when faced with possible ( probable?) death, who knows what goes through a person's mind.
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Anyway the ambush shown was three on one, one armed with a tire iron, one unarmed. Not good odds, specially when you're taken by surprise. Jack had to have been tough when he was working on farms and rodeoing, but I wonder whether he was ever a fighter? He never provokes the fights with Ennis up on the montain and is never shown fighting again, whereas Ennis did and is.
THis is true, although Ennis didn't seem to care about odds, as evidenced by his taking on the 2 bikers. But then again he had the element of surprise in that one!
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Surprise is certainly a strong element of this attack. However, I also think Jack may have had a bit of a fatalistic attitude when he realized what was going down. This was EXACTLY what Ennis had warned him about. Surely Ennis flashed before his eyes, along with all his warnings. Maybe Jack thought the attack was inevitable. Maybe he ever thought in a tiny way that he deserved the beating. I know that's a disturbing thought, but when faced with possible ( probable?) death, who knows what goes through a person's mind.
Yes, I suspect that Ennis would not have been brought down as easily as Jack, even with the element of surprise.
What if Ennis would have been there? 3 to 2 is not too bad. And Ennis would have probably been a stubborn adversary, not so easily brought down.
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Remember the two bikers, and he laid them out all by his lonesome. Imagine if he was defending Jack.? Imagine both fighting them off, Oh, I get all tinglely thinking about it. IMSW (in my own sick way).
Sick, you bet. I totally get what you mean, though. I can picture that, too, the two of them, each fighting for the other -- what they're fighting for would make them a force to be reckoned with against some idiots just out probably drunk to make trouble against what they think is an easy target.
Also, I always worried about them on their camping trips -- not in 1963 so much, but later -- because there were crazy people out in the wilderness, unfortunately. Or maybe my fears were from being women-without-men camping and such -- we really were not safe. But men weren't, either. There came a time, I guess 70's and into 80's, when if it wasn't an ax murderer, it was meth freaks and maybe E and J would get too close to their lab.
kathy
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But you know Kathy, it was like time was suspended when they were together, I know this is OT,but it didn't matter it was '63, '73, or '83. When they were together the outside world stopped for them for that short time they were together. Just another thought.
But, back to what you were saying, I don't about the meth lab, being out there, but I sure think they might run in to a "hippie commune". Wouldn't that be a hoot. "All we are say is give peace a chance."
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Yes, I suspect that Ennis would not have been brought down as easily as Jack, even with the element of surprise. What if Ennis would have been there? 3 to 2 is not too bad. And Ennis would have probably been a stubborn adversary, not so easily brought down.
You bet. As desribed in the SS in '63, he was given the tools and seemed he never changed much:
Ennis, high arched nose and narrow face, was scruffy and a little cave chested, balanced a small torso on long, caliper legs, and possessed a muscular and supple body made for the horse and for fighting. His reflexes were uncommonly quick . . . .
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You bet. As desribed in the SS in '63, he was given the tools and seemed he never changed much:
Ennis, high arched nose and narrow face, was scruffy and a little cave chested, balanced a small torso on long, caliper legs, and possessed a muscular and supple body made for the horse and for fighting. His reflexes were uncommonly quick . . . .
It's good that he was made this way, because Ennis was too volatile in his anger. He certainly didn't think too much about odds. Depending on the case, this could amount to bravery or foolishness.
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It's good that he was made this way, because Ennis was too volatile in his anger.
It's interesting the way sometimes people develop and learn to use the god given "tools" they have been given. Some get good looks (no names here but I can think of two right away!), some get physical stamina, some language or artistic qualities, etc. etc. Some lucky folks get multiples, some unfortunates get little. Ennis learned early on he was good with his physical reactions and that this could be used to his advantage if he wanted. (the bit with his brother, etc) This was something no one could take from him and so he probably prized it greatly. Though we see him use his skill frequently I don't get the sense he abuses others with it, that is he's not a bully and doesn't get pleasure from bullying people - it comes out primarily when he feels directly threatened or sees no other solutions. It would be difficult to control this if you knew were good at it and you knew you could easily intimidate others with this advantage, and especially if you had little else in life - poor, orphaned, etc. This "ability" probably helped shape his personality - like Jack's imagination and "dreaming" helped shape his.
IMHO this is one of Annies greatest strengths in this story - her ability to create "real" multi-dimensional people out of whole cloth, these guys are so real sometimes it scares me.
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It's interesting the way sometimes people develop and learn to use the god given "tools" they have been given. Some get good looks (no names here but I can think of two right away!), some get physical stamina, some language or artistic qualities, etc. etc. Some lucky folks get multiples, some unfortunates get little. Ennis learned early on he was good with his physical reactions and that this could be used to his advantage if he wanted. (the bit with his brother, etc) This was something no one could take from him and so he probably prized it greatly. Though we see him use his skill frequently I don't get the sense he abuses others with it, that is he's not a bully and doesn't get pleasure from bullying people - it comes out primarily when he feels directly threatened or sees no other solutions. It would be difficult to control this if you knew were good at it and you knew you could easily intimidate others with this advantage, and especially if you had little else in life - poor, orphaned, etc. This "ability" probably helped shape his personality - like Jack's imagination and "dreaming" helped shape his.
IMHO this is one of Annies greatest strengths in this story - her ability to create "real" multi-dimensional people out of whole cloth, these guys are so real sometimes it scares me.
Yes, I agree that Ennis did not bully people, nor did he derive pleasure from bullying people. If threatened, he did react violently, but he was surprisingly restrained even in his reactions when Jack was concerned.
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Yes, I agree that Ennis did not bully people, nor did he derive pleasure from bullying people. If threatened, he did react violently, but he was surprisingly restrained even in his reactions when Jack was concerned.
Yes I agree with you. Ennis was restrained when it came Jack, totally loving towards him, like Ennis never had been with anyone else. But I'm afraid that same restraint could unleashed a fury with slightest fear, feeling, idea Jack would leave him. That is one thing I think could set Ennis off even with all troubles they had. Letting Jack go was never, I believe,was an option for Ennis, bottomline I think it was out of the question.
If Ennis ever thought Jack would leave him, and especially leave him for someone else, Ennis could easily lose any control of himself he had.
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Yes I agree with you. Ennis was restrained when it came Jack, totally loving towards him, like Ennis never had been with anyone else. But I'm afraid that same restraint could unleashed a fury with slightest fear, feeling, idea Jack would leave him. That is one thing I think could set Ennis off even with all troubles they had. Letting Jack go was never, I believe,was an option for Ennis, bottomline I think it was out of the question.
If Ennis ever thought Jack would leave him, and especially leave him for someone else, Ennis could easily lose any control of himself he had.
A great example is when Ennis got that bloodied nose from the scuffle with Jack. His reaction was to hit Jack hard -- but only once! ;) If it were someone else, I would wager that he would have finished him off. This is probably the one time he hurt jack physically, no? But it was closer to a brutal "kiss", if you know what I mean...
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Love can be so strong that it leads to physical violence, biting and scratching and so on ( not as part of sexual acts). I can remember a friend with her kids saying, "I could eat you up" and actually nipping one kid's skin - I was afraid ashe was going to consume her. I suppose overflowing emotion finds itslef unable to pour out quickly enough and takes the easiert path - to Ennis that might have been to swing a fist. Though there's frustration and inability to comminicate in there too.
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There are some very interesting comments and concepts being brought forth here. The whole physicality aspect of Ennis, his skill in this area and his use of it under certain circumstances could be a very interesting discussion, though I’m not sure this forum would find it appropriate. It would delve into an area of fantasy, pain, sexual gratification, etc. This is, as I’m sure most people here already know, a major element in the world of homosexual men. I can imagine some very interesting fan fiction evolving describing an elaborate fantasy life of Ennis and Jack based on the few personality traits we know and see.
This aspect really “hit” me (no pun intended) reading what tpe said about the “brutal kiss” delivered by Ennis when he punched Jack. Yes! What he really wanted to do was kiss him! But his inner conflicts and turmoil wouldn’t let him do it, (he was too pissed) so he did what he was good at; he punched him, quickly and out of nowhere. It could be argued that based on the reunion kiss, he was pretty damm good at kissing too! And maybe there’s another bookend – THE punch and THE kiss? The same “Ennis” emotional surge coming out of nowhere, reacting quickly, not thinking of the consequences. Both directed towards the same man, his love.
If Jack had been able to really coax Ennis out of his shell (and maybe he did, we saw just a little of it SNIT), there might have been some really interesting “encounters” ahead for both of them. I can see them getting into role-playing very easily. I’m not sure I feel comfortable going much farther than this here, but I wonder if anyone else sees this same potential in this relationship.
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There are some very interesting comments and concepts being brought forth here. The whole physicality aspect of Ennis, his skill in this area and his use of it under certain circumstances could be a very interesting discussion, though I’m not sure this forum would find it appropriate. It would delve into an area of fantasy, pain, sexual gratification, etc. This is, as I’m sure most people here already know, a major element in the world of homosexual men. I can imagine some very interesting fan fiction evolving describing an elaborate fantasy life of Ennis and Jack based on the few personality traits we know and see.
This aspect really “hit” me (no pun intended) reading what tpe said about the “brutal kiss” delivered by Ennis when he punched Jack. Yes! What he really wanted to do was kiss him! But his inner conflicts and turmoil wouldn’t let him do it, (he was too pissed) so he did what he was good at; he punched him, quickly and out of nowhere. It could be argued that based on the reunion kiss, he was pretty damm good at kissing too! And maybe there’s another bookend – THE punch and THE kiss? The same “Ennis” emotional surge coming out of nowhere, reacting quickly, not thinking of the consequences. Both directed towards the same man, his love.
If Jack had been able to really coax Ennis out of his shell (and maybe he did, we saw just a little of it SNIT), there might have been some really interesting “encounters” ahead for both of them. I can see them getting into role-playing very easily. I’m not sure I feel comfortable going much farther than this here, but I wonder if anyone else sees this same potential in this relationship.
I felt that with Ennis, love and hate are expressed very strongly. The boundary between the two becomes a bit more tenuous.
The reunion kiss was also pretty "brutal". It was very similar to the punch that he administered to Jack up in the Mountain. It was as if love was something like a fight for Ennis. In this sense, it is part of his potent physicality, in complement to Jack's sensual nature.
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But, back to what you were saying, I don't about the meth lab, being out there, but I sure think they might run in to a "hippie commune". Wouldn't that be a hoot. "All we are say is give peace a chance."
Hi manhattangirl :h) As a Beatles fan, this made me smile :) And of course, The Beatles gave us the ultimate hippy anthem, "All You Need Is Love", but it was nowhere near as simple as that for our boys, was it? :(
On the subjest of fighting, and particularly Ennis punching Jack on their last day on Brokeback, I think jackster is spot on here "It could be argued that based on the reunion kiss, he was pretty damm good at kissing too! And maybe there’s another bookend – THE punch and THE kiss? The same “Ennis” emotional surge coming out of nowhere, reacting quickly, not thinking of the consequences. Both directed towards the same man, his love."
I totally agree it was a bookend, Ennis waited four years to kiss that punch better, so to speak. It had been on his mind the whole time they were apart. In the motel he told Jack "I didn't think I'd hear from you again,I figured you were sore from that punch", which was both an admission of guilt and as close to an apology as Jack was ever likely to get. That fight scene took my breath away when I first saw the film, to me it is as much an expression of Ennis's love for Jack as the reunion kiss. The pain of losing Jack was too much for Ennis to take, and the only outlet he could find for that pain was to hurt the person he saw as the cause of it:Jack. I'm a Jack girl through and through, and I've been in the same place as Jack when he's lying flat out on the ground, but somehow it's Ennis I really feel for in that scene, maybe because deep down, emotionally, that punch, and what it symbolised, hurt Ennis even more than it hurt Jack :(
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Chrimsonsky,
Even at the farewell, standing by Jack's truck, Jack with the bruises on his face, still wanted Ennis, looking for a way of telling "this is not over", but Ennis seacrching for his shirt in that sack and telling Jack of his plans to marry Alma, what could Jack do?
Jack was not upset about the punch, but took it probably knowing it wasn't directed at him, but understanding his lover's rage. This is the first in many times, Jack would be the victim of Ennis's rage in one form or the other, this is one thing Jack learned, to take whatever Ennis dished out at a given moment.
Jackster, if this hasn't been done the bookend idea is great, wish you do it.
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And verging *o) but I don't think the sexual arousal, fantasy, pain syndrome is restricted to gay men.
It also occurs to me that after Ennis complains about losing money by being brought down a month early Jack offers him a loan and Ennis reacts very badly. Then Jack does the whole lassooing bit, which could be seen in several different ways, In the end I wonder if the punch doesn't also come out of Ennis's rage with Aguirre and his resentment at Jack, who hasn't only shown that he thinks he is better off than Ennis but also appears to be making a game out of their leaving. I don't think Ennis would get as far as seeing that Jack does that prescisely because he's so unhappy about ot - the whole "I laugh that I may not cry" thing probably would be too subtle for Enns.
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And verging *o) but I don't think the sexual arousal, fantasy, pain syndrome is restricted to gay men.
*o) Believe me, I know it's not.
Anyway, Ennis sits alone pouting like a spoil brat who doesn't get their way, Jack knew exactly what was wrong, and went to him, "Its time to go cowboy". Then the rage. I don't think it was Aguirre, or resentment of Jack, who knew that their time in the mountain was over, its time to move on. And this is exact the reason Ennis could not handle it, once he left Brokeback, he wouldn't see Jack again, he'll marry Alma, it's over.
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And verging *o) but I don't think the sexual arousal, fantasy, pain syndrome is restricted to gay men.
&*& You mean other folks do this too?
Just kidding. Didn't mean to imply it was only "us guys", but that that was what may be going on here with these two guys in particular. I didn't even make the connection with the lasso rope, very sharp thinking there WW! I wonder if they'd played with that rope before ;) ? And Jack lassoin' Ennis, hmm. . . the mind reels at the various possibilities here . . . . ^-^
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Yes, well,I don't know about sharp thinking. Reading too many of the wrong sort of books more likely. Originally i thought of the lassooing as more of a possessive gesture - "grapple him to thyself with hoops of steel" sort of idea.
Then later I got to thinking about other ways of looking at it - there has to be a sexual undercurrent.
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I felt that with Ennis, love and hate are expressed very strongly. The boundary between the two becomes a bit more tenuous.
The reunion kiss was also pretty "brutal". It was very similar to the punch that he administered to Jack up in the Mountain. It was as if love was something like a fight for Ennis. In this sense, it is part of his potent physicality, in complement to Jack's sensual nature.
I love what you said here, Thomas. What I bolded, and also Ennis's potent physicality and Jack's sensual nature. Beautiful way to say it.
I didn't question why Ennis punched Jack, that outpouring of emotion that he didn't yet know what to do with. Well, he did know what to do with certain of his emotions in camp with Jack; and maybe they even had some knock-down, drag-out arguments or even fights, and we don't know how they might have learned to handle their fights, if they had any up on Brokeback. But this leaving early had Ennis all messed up. They didn't even have time for one last time lovemaking, as they would have had if they'd had any advance notice that they had to leave. So it was all the more devastating for Ennis because it was so sudden. He sat up on that hill by himself -- oh my heart breaks. And sweet darling Jack tries to cheer him up. And it seems Jack didn't think this was goodbye forever, though Ennis had a sense that it was, going back to Alma and all, so the rug had just been pulled out from under him.
I like what Jackster said, too, about the punch/the kiss. And it's conceivable that they could have gotten into so-called role-playing. Not in the sense that has now became more common and (arguably) benign, because at the time they perhaps wouldn't have known it's "okay" to play this way. But each of their natural inclinations might certainly have played naturally out in their love play.
kathy
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Hi manhattangirl :h) As a Beatles fan, this made me smile :) And of course, The Beatles gave us the ultimate hippy anthem, "All You Need Is Love", but it was nowhere near as simple as that for our boys, was it? :(
On the subjest of fighting, and particularly Ennis punching Jack on their last day on Brokeback, I think jackster is spot on here "It could be argued that based on the reunion kiss, he was pretty damm good at kissing too! And maybe there’s another bookend – THE punch and THE kiss? The same “Ennis” emotional surge coming out of nowhere, reacting quickly, not thinking of the consequences. Both directed towards the same man, his love."
I totally agree it was a bookend, Ennis waited four years to kiss that punch better, so to speak. It had been on his mind the whole time they were apart. In the motel he told Jack "I didn't think I'd hear from you again,I figured you were sore from that punch", which was both an admission of guilt and as close to an apology as Jack was ever likely to get. That fight scene took my breath away when I first saw the film, to me it is as much an expression of Ennis's love for Jack as the reunion kiss. The pain of losing Jack was too much for Ennis to take, and the only outlet he could find for that pain was to hurt the person he saw as the cause of it:Jack. I'm a Jack girl through and through, and I've been in the same place as Jack when he's lying flat out on the ground, but somehow it's Ennis I really feel for in that scene, maybe because deep down, emotionally, that punch, and what it symbolised, hurt Ennis even more than it hurt Jack :(
Me, too, CS. I never felt Jack was this poor victim of a horrible violent man. (And that's another reason some of us love men-together...because if Jack had been a woman, we would have been all over Ennis giving him a taste of his own medicine hopefully. But it wasn't a violence directed at a weaker opponent -- totally different between equals. Rant over.) So anyway, you're so right -- it did hurt Ennis more than it hurt Jack. What a way to leave himself in his true love's memory...he was undoubtedly thinking all those four years.
kathy
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Chrimsonsky,
Even at the farewell, standing by Jack's truck, Jack with the bruises on his face, still wanted Ennis, looking for a way of telling "this is not over", but Ennis seacrching for his shirt in that sack and telling Jack of his plans to marry Alma, what could Jack do?
Jack was not upset about the punch, but took it probably knowing it wasn't directed at him, but understanding his lover's rage. This is the first in many times, Jack would be the victim of Ennis's rage in one form or the other, this is one thing Jack learned, to take whatever Ennis dished out at a given moment.
Jackster, if this hasn't been done the bookend idea is great, wish you do it.
Right, M-girl, we see it here, too -- Jack wanting to let Ennis know he still wanted to be with him some way or another. Jack understood Ennis entirely.
kathy
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And verging *o) but I don't think the sexual arousal, fantasy, pain syndrome is restricted to gay men.
It also occurs to me that after Ennis complains about losing money by being brought down a month early Jack offers him a loan and Ennis reacts very badly. Then Jack does the whole lassooing bit, which could be seen in several different ways, In the end I wonder if the punch doesn't also come out of Ennis's rage with Aguirre and his resentment at Jack, who hasn't only shown that he thinks he is better off than Ennis but also appears to be making a game out of their leaving. I don't think Ennis would get as far as seeing that Jack does that prescisely because he's so unhappy about ot - the whole "I laugh that I may not cry" thing probably would be too subtle for Enns.
Hmmm, there's that, too, which I didn't really consider: Ennis would maybe have resentment because it doesn't seem to be as devastating to Jack -- neither the loss of income nor leaving each other. You're right that he's the type to laugh-instead-of-cry. But also, as I said just a bit ago, Jack had those dreams, that at the least, they would get together the following summer.
kathy
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Yes, yum -- the lasso is fun. This topic could keep veering off to that OT subject, so I'll say no more.
kathy
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Say more Kathy if you please. To me this ties into who Ennis was as a whole person. I don't know about handcuffs , ropes, and whips and such, but the possibility of *angry sex* has crossed my mind more than once. Ennis just seems to me to be a very physical person all around. He is consisently *rough* barring SNIT but who knows what happened there either cos we were not privy to the whole thing but I did'nt hear Jack complaining, (his reciprocal kiss on Ennis during the reunion scene was no joke either! talk about taking smash mouth to a new level! ) even during FNIT so maybe it's something they both enjoyed during sex.
No one couple goes practically 20 years without some fights and arguments. Jack showed that he could handle Ennis physically as well as mentally. He knew him well , knew when to push and when to back off and give Ennis his essential *space*. I too beleive that Ennis was feeling shutdown from his ideal circumstances with Jack when Aguirre said to bring the sheep back down. He, imo immediatly began *preparing * himself for the inevitable loss of having Jack to himself. Perhaps it almost sub-concious on his part, taking it out on Jack first when Jack offered the loan, then up the ante when Jack tried to play with him about it. This was a serious blow to Ennis's well-being and was not in the mood to make light of it as Jack found out. If Aguirre had been available at that time, the punch would have gone to it's rightful target. Ennis's anxiety over leaving and what awaited him in the future (marriage to Alma) combined with Jack's seemingly non-concern drove Ennis over edge. But Jack cared more than Ennis knew. The anger was directed at Aguirre's ( that sumbitch... as Ennis put it) untimely instuctions and not Jack. He was'nt ready to leave.My HO.
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These were men, a rodeo rider, and a ranch hand, roughnecks by nature, with a high level of sexual need for each other. And couple that with long periods of not being together, I don't think things would exactly be gentle between them.
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Gentle? I would liken it to a pre- dormant volcanic explosion , red hot, explosive , uncontrollable and everything below gets covered! <^( ;)Please don't get me started. Oops my imagination just ran off. ;) ;) And let's not limit this to men although these two would fit together...Like puzzlepeices. :cr)
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I love what you said here, Thomas. What I bolded, and also Ennis's potent physicality and Jack's sensual nature. Beautiful way to say it.
I didn't question why Ennis punched Jack, that outpouring of emotion that he didn't yet know what to do with. Well, he did know what to do with certain of his emotions in camp with Jack; and maybe they even had some knock-down, drag-out arguments or even fights, and we don't know how they might have learned to handle their fights, if they had any up on Brokeback. But this leaving early had Ennis all messed up. They didn't even have time for one last time lovemaking, as they would have had if they'd had any advance notice that they had to leave. So it was all the more devastating for Ennis because it was so sudden. He sat up on that hill by himself -- oh my heart breaks. And sweet darling Jack tries to cheer him up. And it seems Jack didn't think this was goodbye forever, though Ennis had a sense that it was, going back to Alma and all, so the rug had just been pulled out from under him.
I like what Jackster said, too, about the punch/the kiss. And it's conceivable that they could have gotten into so-called role-playing. Not in the sense that has now became more common and (arguably) benign, because at the time they perhaps wouldn't have known it's "okay" to play this way. But each of their natural inclinations might certainly have played naturally out in their love play.
kathy
Thanks kathy. Ennis was certainly messed up when he found out about having to come down early from the mountain. I have tried to watch the fight scene very carefully to see the actual moment when play becomes anger, and it is really hard to tell. It sometimes seems to me that from the very start, Ennis took things very seriously, and it was Jack who gradually realized that Ennis was not joking around.
I also don't discount the possibility that this was part role-playing. For one, it reminded me of the earlier scene when they were fooling around, not realizing that Aguirre was watching. Could it have been part of a game? Jack must have thought so at the beginning of the fight with Ennis. He probably thought it was akin to that earlier scene.
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tpe,
If you watch that scene again, listen to the middle of it when Jack calls out Ennis's name, it was at that point when Ennis too got instense in the play, that's when things got serious. Jack then was reduce to trying to defend himself.
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tpe,
If you watch that scene again, listen to the middle of it when Jack calls out Ennis's name, it was at that point when Ennis too got instense in the play, that's when things got serious. Jack then was reduce to trying to defend himself.
I should perhaps listen as carefully as I watch. Thanks MG. I shall take your hint and watch this scene once again.
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What a hardship, tpe!
It seems to me that there's a possibl;e parallel between the two of them rolling round in the open air which ends in a kiss and the last scne before they leave the moutain, which doesn't. I've always seen the lops of the rope as Jack's way of trying to tie Ennis to him - Ennis has already brushed him off over the offered loan, now he brushes his rope off too, or tries to, by the truck later he brushes off Jack's half-offer of another period on the mountain the next year. Ennis starts a pattern of rejection which continues to the end - maybe it's all there in that scene with the lassoo.
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What a hardship, tpe!
It seems to me that there's a possibl;e parallel between the two of them rolling round in the open air which ends in a kiss and the last scne before they leave the moutain, which doesn't. I've always seen the lops of the rope as Jack's way of trying to tie Ennis to him - Ennis has already brushed him off over the offered loan, now he brushes his rope off too, or tries to, by the truck later he brushes off Jack's half-offer of another period on the mountain the next year. Ennis starts a pattern of rejection which continues to the end - maybe it's all there in that scene with the lassoo.
A wonderful correspondence here, WW. Jack forever trying to pin down Ennis, and Ennis always fighting back. Wther it ends with a kiss, a fist, or in tears, Ennis fought off his own happiness because of his own fears. For Jack, Ennis fighting with himself was something that he was unable to subjugate.
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You guys as aways are right.
He fights Jack off, would kill Jack for wanting it, expects Jack to be there.
He hit Jack that last day, for one reason, "You're not in control of me, I am." and when he didn't hear from him for fours year, that punch must have worked.
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You guys as aways are right.
He fights Jack off, would kill Jack for wanting it, expects Jack to be there.
He hit Jack that last day, for one reason, "You're not in control of me, I am." and when he didn't hear from him for fours year, that punch must have worked.
Ennis probabaly regretted that punch he gave Jack. I think it may account for the afct that we never really see him punch Jack again after that.
We may say that Ennis was not always in control of his anger. But there were many times where he exercised such wonderful self-restraint -- fighting against himself, so to speak.
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tpe,
Your're right he never hit Jack after that. I believe he would have cut his hand off than to hit Jack again, no matter how angry he was. Even at the Final Confrontation, he walk away from Jack, and he was really angry. Yeah, you're right.
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tpe,
Your're right he never hit Jack after that. I believe he would have cut his hand off than to hit Jack again, no matter how angry he was. Even at the Final Confrontation, he walk away from Jack, and he was really angry. Yeah, you're right.
I was half expecting Ennis to assault Jack sometime during the tense confrontation at the end of the last meeting, but Ennis would rather have broken down it seems, than punch Jack -- and that is indeed what happened...