Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: christie wood on Feb 01, 2006, 06:39 AM
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Is there a thread for this scene? If so, I hope you'd be kind enough to lead me there. I find this scene one of the most affecting of the film and says a lot without Ennis saying a word. It breaks my heart to see Ennis break down because he couldn't tell Jack how he felt. But what powerful acting from Heath Ledger, such amazing powerful intensity he brings to this scene.
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I agree on both counts. If there's a thread, point me to it. This scene shows how deeply in love with Jack Ennis is from the beginning, though he isn't consciously aware of it yet. It's a gut-level thing. *sorry* ;D And as powerful as the story was on this point, Lee/Ledger's realization of that scene amplifies its power by an order of magnitude.
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Hello christie wood. I don't recall a thread explicitly devoted to this scene. If I am wrong, then I would appreciate a PM with the info so that I can merge this thread with it.
What affected you most about the scene? (I address this to all readers.) I know of at least 2 people who did not entirely understand it (they had not read the story.) But I think Ledger did a magnificent job projecting a dual feeling of anger and sadness -- anger at himself for getting into the situation with Jack, and sadness at seeing Jack go.
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Hi tpe,
Thanks so much for replying. I haven't read the short story (yet) but I got that scene completely. After the awkwardness of his last conversation with Jack, and knowing that this could possibly be the last time he may see him, the gravity of this situation affects Ennis so much, but because he is unable to verbalise his feelings, he keeps them so locked down within himself, that he has to finally let them out once he sees Jack's truck go by. I cannot begin to explain how much this scene affected me. It is so powerful, and very humbling to see Ennis break down over his realisation that he loves Jack and that he wants him. That's what I got out of that scene, and I would love to know what others did too. Sometimes I find it hard to express my thoughts/feelings about this film because I'm so emotional about it, and I am sure that there are others out there who are able to express themselves and discuss this in a far better way than I can.
I am still amazed, however, at how much Heath Ledger's performance bowls me over. That scene, him alone in that alleyway, breaking down finally, just about breaks my heart.
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Hi proulxfan
Sorry I didn't say thank you to you too for replying to my post. I agree with you. There had been so much wonderful, amazing stuff going on before this scene, but I think this scene speaks volumes about the character of Ennis. Breaking down and almost vomiting and banging his fist against the wall - it was all through pure frustration that he wasn't able to tell Jack anything before he left. Poor Jack had been pleading with Ennis to say something - anything - to let him know that he wanted to see him again somehow, somewhere, but he didn't get it. Wouldn't it have been fantastic if Jack and decided to drive back to Ennis and found him collapsed in the alleyway, and he could have taken him in his arms, and quietly rocked him and loved him forever.
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The screenplay also notes that in this scene, Ennis bloodies his knuckles by punching the wall. Ledger did this with such realism and emotion -- it was hard NOT to assume that he DID in real life bloody his knuckles...
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I thought that too when watching the film as he hit the wall SO hard it was so realistic, it was like all this built up emotion leaving his body through his fist! Pity it couldn't have been through his mouth and arms kissing and loving Jack.
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I thought the same thing. When I watch that scene I can't help but wonder if he did more damage than simply to bloody his hand.
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Well, Ennis might have 'bloodied his hand' but what we see in the film seems worse, probably because of those darn Foley artists and their celery stalks :-D
I'm sure the actor Heath Ledger was hitting a nice soft fake wall, or pulling his punch. Add a couple of good sound effects and the scene is jarringly realistic.
This is one of the (many) points in the film where a moment from the book was *perfectly* realized on screen. Ledger's sobbing and the "what the f*** are you lookin at?" just made it better. I asked straight friends if they knew why he collapsed and EVERY one of them got it.
btb
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Is there a thread for this scene? If so, I hope you'd be kind enough to lead me there. I find this scene one of the most affecting of the film and says a lot without Ennis saying a word. It breaks my heart to see Ennis break down because he couldn't tell Jack how he felt. But what powerful acting from Heath Ledger, such amazing powerful intensity he brings to this scene.
This is just one reason why Brokeback is such an unforgettable film. Right before this scene, when Ennis and Jack say good-bye, Jack seems to attempt to leave an open in order to see Ennis again. But Ennis puts up a brick wall at each hint of Jack's. Stoic as always, Ennis walks away. Ennis' "breaking down" scene illustrates the terrible torment that he suffered. I was also moved by Jack's offer of money to Ennis and Ennis' prideful rebuff. By this time, of course, Jack would have given Ennis the moon and the stars.
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To make it even sadder, Ennis knew that Jack would be at his parents place in Lightning Flat for several weeks. Jack had made sure Ennis knew it. Why didn't he get in his truck and get over there? At 19, out of a job, you bet I would have been over. Talk about being messed up.
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I saw the movie before I read the story, and I was so shocked by this scene. The filmmakers do a wonderful job of leading us right up to it without giving away Ennis's true reaction beforehand. If you viewed any of the film clips online before seeing the movie itself, you probably got to see the scene where they're saying goodbye right before that. Having seen that moment before, I was not at all prepared for Ennis's total breakdown. You hear him sob once near the end of his meltdown (which I think was mentioned somewhere else on this forum), which is unbelievably, inexpressibly poignant. He is angry, filled with grief, and still unable to show his true self to the world--note the hat shielding him from the passing cowboy. :-\
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To make it even sadder, Ennis knew that Jack would be at his parents place in Lightning Flat for several weeks. Jack had made sure Ennis knew it. Why didn't he get in his truck and get over there? At 19, out of a job, you bet I would have been over. Talk about being messed up.
Sharve, don't you bet he *wanted* to. How sad huh? He couldn't though. Can't we relate in some ways huh?
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You hear him sob once near the end of his meltdown (which I think was mentioned somewhere else on this forum), which is unbelievably, inexpressibly poignant.
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Oh yes. I didn't quite notice (or remember) that sob during my 1st and 2nd viewing, but it really struck me at my 3rd viewing. Really powerful...
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To make it even sadder, Ennis knew that Jack would be at his parents place in Lightning Flat for several weeks. Jack had made sure Ennis knew it. Why didn't he get in his truck and get over there? At 19, out of a job, you bet I would have been over. Talk about being messed up.
Sharve, don't you bet he *wanted* to. How sad huh? He couldn't though. Can't we relate in some ways huh?
Like it or not, Ennis has made a commitment to Alma... and he does not go back on his promises. Remember that he does not even recognize what's happened to him (the wretch in the alley) until nearly two years later, by which time, in his own words, it's too late. What troubles me is that, since he does finally recognize that he was brought to his knees the first time because he shouldn't be letting Jack drive away... that when he's brought to his knees again (at the end of the confrontation at the last camp-out) he doesn't understand that he can't let Jack drive away... a second time (although, it just occurred to me, that the second time, he is actually driving away from Jack). Allan
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Very good observation, Allen, I didn't even think of the comparison of the two scenes. I am also glad that you pointed out that according to the story Ennis does not even come to terms with this physical reaction until a year later. (I thought that is what he says). How can he express to Jack that which he doesn't understand himself?
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One thing that always strikes me when I watch the movie (four times now, and waiting for my preordered DVD!) is how many times we actually see Ennis cry. This is the first time (although to me he looks close to tears--of joy, closeness, vulnerability, what have you--in the second tent scene) he cries, in the alley, but it seems to set the stage for the other times: the tears in his eyes when he and Alma are divorcing, his breakdown with Jack the last time they meet, and of course the end, with "Jack, I swear." The alley scene shows us how deeply Ennis cares and how painful it is for him to let that feeling show. He can't do anything except strike out at his own feelings. Sigh . . . . I feel like I would give almost anything to see Jack rescue him in this scene, but yet the pain he shows makes their reunion scene four years later just that much sweeter.
thanks, christie wood, for starting this thread. :)
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Interesting point, Shieldmaid. For someone who is supposed to be a clenched fist he sure can cry. Great for him to have that release at least, if he can't find the words.
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I agree that Ennis breaking down in the alley was his way of dealing with his emotions in private and also a chance for him to let it out since he usually kept things bottled up inside..his breaking down tells us that he was upset, sad, and really cared for Jack and was upset that there time together ended or so he thought..and he was also torn because he did make a commitment to Alma to marry her and he knew that he wouldn't back out or not keep his word..so we see his frustrations and we see his heartache..it was a very powerful scene
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I sometimes wonder, if anything would have been different if Jack said something about keeping in touch when they were still on the mountain. I don't begin to imagine that they would have had a life together, but perhaps 4 years wouldn't have gone by before they saw each other again. Although very doubtful, maybe they each would not have gotten married. Forgive me, I am a true romantic. Ennis shows the emotional upheaval he is feeling in the only way he knows how, with anger and physical gestures of regret before they come down. Jack does not really look upset at all about their parting. Maybe, Ennis thinks he just doesn't care, that he was just another notch on his belt. Jack doesn't show any emotion about their parting, until they are back in town. We all know how repressed Ennis feels in town. By that time, his mind is closed to the possibility.
As previously stated, the magnitude of Heath's acting ability overwhelms me in this scene as it does in his other breakdown scene. The emotions to be represented in this scene are very complex and he expressed them perfectly.
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I am so glad there is a thread for this. This is probably my favorite scene in the movie ( i can't decide completely ! there are too many great scenes!! ;D) Ahh.. the anger and the sadness and the beauty of the realization of his love for Jack... ooo my gosh ! AMAZING!!! I couldn't have asked for a better performance from Heath!!!
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I sometimes wonder, if anything would have been different if Jack said something about keeping in touch when they were still on the mountain. I don't begin to imagine that they would have had a life together, but perhaps 4 years wouldn't have gone by before they saw each other again. Although very doubtful, maybe they each would not have gotten married. Forgive me, I am a true romantic. Ennis shows the emotional upheaval he is feeling in the only way he knows how, with anger and physical gestures of regret before they come down. Jack does not really look upset at all about their parting. Maybe, Ennis thinks he just doesn't care, that he was just another notch on his belt. Jack doesn't show any emotion about their parting, until they are back in town. We all know how repressed Ennis feels in town. By that time, his mind is closed to the possibility.
As previously stated, the magnitude of Heath's acting ability overwhelms me in this scene as it does in his other breakdown scene. The emotions to be represented in this scene are very complex and he expressed them perfectly.
I have to agree, Heath's acting in this scene is what got me so bad when I first saw the film. I couldnt quite believe what I was seeing. I honestly thought that after Ennis and Jack parted, Jack would drive off and ennis would just carry on walking. I was so completely unprepared for what happened. And then when he hit the wall, and, in between his rage, a tiny, stifled sob came out. That really did it for me.
I think Jack acted nonchalant about the prospect of leaving the mountain because he believed that they'd be seeing each other again. I really believe that. Even though Jack knew Ennis was planning to marry Alma, he probably thought that Ennis would not be able to go back to that life after what had happened on Brokeback. And also, do you remember the scene with the mixed up sheep and Ennis says to Jack "what if we need to work for Aguirre again? We have to ride this out Jack". I read that as Ennis, in his mind at that moment, thinking that there's a strong possibility of returning the following summer, if only to be with Jack again. And Jack must have heard that remark, and kept it close in his heart. But when they have to leave early, Ennis closes up, closing his head and his heart to everything that's happened, because he feels he has no choice. Heartbreaking.
I'm a total romantic too, and I am forever wondering what would have happened if!
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Here's a screencap
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg316.imageshack.us%2Fimg316%2F2039%2Falley4ha.jpg&hash=617fd58371b6bd81473fe4316a0e10c2640c0868)
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Well that Scene hits anyone that was paying attention to the movie, i remember that a stupid on the theater said on my 12th view "he got aids" i got such upset. anyway....
that scene had the power of what most of the people that can't show the feelings to everyone do. they try to fight the pain in they own way it is like he said he didn't knew what it was but his soul and his body did he was loosing that part of him that completes him, Jack was leaving his life and he indeed put a brick everytime in that time jack was trying to see if Ennis would do o say something and in his own fear Ennis totally reject him. but then his body and soul remind him that he was loosing that part that was completing him like "Hey idiot go you lost a part of you!!" and made him feel like bad. in the short story explains it better and i really think that the movie scene is as exact as the book. i go with Annie Proulxs on this movie was as exact as the book and it is weird to find movies like that.
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i remember that a stupid on the theater said on my 12th view "he got aids" i got such upset. anyway....
Indeed, exquisitely stupid.
What a life!
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Christie, It is interesting to read your take on how Jack interprets the ending of their summer. I am very Ennislike. I believe that my interpretation is possibly how Ennis reads Jack's response to the news. Your interpretation is probably the way Jack reads Ennis's response to the news. The problem is they are misinterpratting each other. Is this viable?
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Christie, It is interesting to read your take on how Jack interprets the ending of their summer. I am very Ennislike. I believe that my interpretation is possibly how Ennis reads Jack's response to the news. Your interpretation is probably the way Jack reads Ennis's response to the news. The problem is they are misinterpratting each other. Is this viable?
Yes, I do believe this is what drove that parting. In spite of them both not wanting to part (and I think Jack feels it too...look at his eyes before he goes over to lasso Ennis on the last day, and also look at his eyes when he looks in his side mirror as he drives away from Ennis), I think it was each not understanding the signals of the other.
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And look at those eyes when he speaks about possibly coming back next year. Such powerful nonverbal communication in these actors performances.
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I just LOVE this scene, and no I'm not sadist. I think it's very beautiful scene, very powerfull, but it's also one of the most sadest scene in the whole movie.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg50.imageshack.us%2Fimg50%2F5365%2Fbrokebackmtn20882le.jpg&hash=58120c1a1da2e3dafe5169cb58c05a8d34b59c26)
This scene can be interpreted in several differents ways ; it depends of our opinion or feelings.
For me, it’s a very touching scene, for its "mise en scene" and for its symbolism.
This scene is violent, yes violent, the feelings that he feels his hurts, and he expresses by striking this wall, which hides him, he collapses all alone. He's irritated, his fury, he feels almost hate. Why? For whom? For everything, for nothing. For somebody, for a feeling, for a fear.
He collapses alone and hidden, but when a man come by, he is ready to fight. I think, here are all the power of this scene, it is only the beginning of the film and nevertheless it's almost possible to see the end. Ennis's life, will be always like that? Happy moments and then the sad moments, but always hidden? Always ready to fight, against himself, more than against the others. Open then close.
And nevertheless at the beginning of the film Ennis collapses alone hidden by a wall, and at the end of the film he also collapses, but this time in spite of the violent reaction, he's not alone any more, and he doesn't hide for some moments. "I can't stand it anymore."
Me either...
Ps: It's very hard for me to explain clearly , what I think or feel about this scene, and I'm sorry about that. (English don't help! lol)
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I just read the screenplay. There is no direction for Ennis to whimper or sob as he does. I don't know if that came from Ange or Heath, but it just rips me apart.
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(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg115.imageshack.us%2Fimg115%2F4985%2Fbrokebackmtn20573gf.jpg&hash=69d2ff19f1b964a35a65c130fafc96c35d09bdc6)
"That summer," said Ennis. "When we split up after we got paid out I had gut cramps so bad I pulled over and tried to puke, thought I ate somethin bad at that place in Dubois. Took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long, long while."
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I just LOVE this scene, and no I'm not sadist. I think it's very beautiful scene, very powerfull, but it's also one of the most sadest scene in the whole movie.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg50.imageshack.us%2Fimg50%2F5365%2Fbrokebackmtn20882le.jpg&hash=58120c1a1da2e3dafe5169cb58c05a8d34b59c26)
This scene can be interpreted in several differents ways ; it depends of our opinion or feelings.
For me, it’s a very touching scene, for its "mise en scene" and for its symbolism.
This scene is violent, yes violent, the feelings that he feels his hurts, and he expresses by striking this wall, which hides him, he collapses all alone. He's irritated, his fury, he feels almost hate. Why? For whom? For everything, for nothing. For somebody, for a feeling, for a fear.
He collapses alone and hidden, but when a man come by, he is ready to fight. I think, here are all the power of this scene, it is only the beginning of the film and nevertheless it's almost possible to see the end. Ennis's life, will be always like that? Happy moments and then the sad moments, but always hidden? Always ready to fight, against himself, more than against the others. Open then close.
And nevertheless at the beginning of the film Ennis collapses alone hidden by a wall, and at the end of the film he also collapses, but this time in spite of the violent reaction, he's not alone any more, and he doesn't hide for some moments. "I can't stand it anymore."
Me either...
Ps: It's very hard for me to explain clearly , what I think or feel about this scene, and I'm sorry about that. (English don't help! lol)
Oh Lost-girl, what you have written about that scene is so beautifully explained, and the fact that english is not your first language really makes it all the more amazing.
I totally agree with you that this scene is violent, but it is a combination of a whole range of feelings that are raging inside of Ennis. I heard that some people were confused about this scene, not sure if Ennis had collapsed because he was disgusted with himself or because he couldn't handle being parted from Jack. For me, it is perfectly clear. Ennis is fighting against himself, because he doesn't want to have these feelings for Jack - they may have been ok up on Brokeback,where they were together alone and able to be themselves - but they are certainly not ok back in the real world, where he is heading. But he DOES have these feelings for Jack - he is in love with Jack - and they have had to part when he wasn't ready to, he wasn't ready to say goodbye to Jack. But he has no control over this situation, and has to leave. The breakdown comes when he can no longer physically hold himself up against the strongest feelings he's ever had for another human being - but he wishes he didn't have these feelings, and I think that's partly why he hits the wall, and also out of frustration for not being able to say what he felt to Jack. It's all a horrible sad mess and he just doesn't know what to do.
The stifled sob you hear after he hits the wall just gets to me each time I see this scene. The sob seems to get louder each time I hear it! And then he just gives up and slides down the wall and stays there.
I always wish Jack drives back and finds Ennis and comforts him. But it's not to be. :'( :'(
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(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg115.imageshack.us%2Fimg115%2F4985%2Fbrokebackmtn20573gf.jpg&hash=69d2ff19f1b964a35a65c130fafc96c35d09bdc6)
"That summer," said Ennis. "When we split up after we got paid out I had gut cramps so bad I pulled over and tried to puke, thought I ate somethin bad at that place in Dubois. Took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long, long while."
Why didn't Ennis say that in the motel room? WHY??????
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thats is one of the most touching scene of the film which cut the unique, intense experience with Jack and throw Ennis again in his reality; in fact after breaking down the scene of Ennis/Alma marriage start, the preconstituted Ennis life recommences.
The breaking down scene also exprimes the stronger Ennis way to feel... he is enable to exprimes with word his feelings and he somatize that transforming his feelings in a physical, intense, manifstation....
coguaro
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Definitely one of the most powerful scenes in the movie and one of my favs as well.
Ledger is absolutely amazing here (but where is he not? ;D). The scene is also one of the most intense tributes Ennis unwillingly gives to his love for Jack.
I LOVE LOVE LOVE it.
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Definitely one of the most powerful scenes in the movie and one of my favs as well.
Ledger is absolutely amazing here (but where is he not? ;D). The scene is also one of the most intense tributes Ennis unwillingly gives to his love for Jack.
I LOVE LOVE LOVE it.
I absolutely agree. One of the things that's interesting to me about the movie version vs. the short story is that the filmmakers chose not to include Ennis's confession to Jack that he realized a year later than his breakdown meant he "never shoulda let you out of my sights." If Ennis had only said that to Jack in the motel room . . . perhaps Jack would have gotten a clearer sense of Ennis's love for him. But alas, only we the viewers know. I too LOVE this scene. How did Ledger manage to convey such powerful emotion in such a sudden shift of gears? From 0 to sobbing/almost vomiting in less than 60 seconds . . . . Wow.
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Definitely one of the most powerful scenes in the movie and one of my favs as well.
Ledger is absolutely amazing here (but where is he not? ;D). The scene is also one of the most intense tributes Ennis unwillingly gives to his love for Jack.
I LOVE LOVE LOVE it.
I absolutely agree. One of the things that's interesting to me about the movie version vs. the short story is that the filmmakers chose not to include Ennis's confession to Jack that he realized a year later than his breakdown meant he "never shoulda let you out of my sights." If Ennis had only said that to Jack in the motel room . . . perhaps Jack would have gotten a clearer sense of Ennis's love for him. But alas, only we the viewers know. I too LOVE this scene. How did Ledger manage to convey such powerful emotion in such a sudden shift of gears? From 0 to sobbing/almost vomiting in less than 60 seconds . . . . Wow.
I know, how did he do that? He was just fantastic......he got me as soon as he began to breakdown, one hand on stomach, and one hand on wall, not knowing what was happening to him. And do you notice how he still has the awareness of other people seeing him, by using his hat as a shield? But he still couldn't stop the shouts coming, or the fists flying, or the sobs breaking his heart......I will never get sick of talking about this scene, never!
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The screenplay also notes that in this scene, Ennis bloodies his knuckles by punching the wall. Ledger did this with such realism and emotion -- it was hard NOT to assume that he DID in real life bloody his knuckles...
Heath was probably punching foam. I'm sure they added the sound later. Donna ;)
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The screenplay also notes that in this scene, Ennis bloodies his knuckles by punching the wall. Ledger did this with such realism and emotion -- it was hard NOT to assume that he DID in real life bloody his knuckles...
Heath was probably punching foam. I'm sure they added the sound later. Donna ;)
Yes. I can not imagine them running the risk of Heath breaking his hand by hitting the wall. But, because I like details, I keep watching for the wall to give a little and it doesn't. Might have used styrofoam?
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I would have to go back to my screenplay, but there was some discussion about why the admission of Ennis to Jack about his breakdown in the alleyway was omitted from the hotel scene. I think Ange Lee felt more weight would be given to later scenes in which Ennis demonstrates his love by not revealing this sooner. He felt this was a pivotal admission, that should come later in the film.
Anyone feel free to correct me, if I am wrong. It is late at night and I am relying on a weary memory.
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Yeah, I wish they hadn't omitted Ennis's confession about his gut cramps too....but maybe it would have felt wrong for "movie Ennis" to say something like that when the rest of the time he says so little?
"Story Ennis" is much more talkative about his feelings. There's times when I really wish some of the other dialogue from the story had been included - things like the "I like doin' it with women but, Jesus H, ain't nothin' like this" line and, of course, "I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin' about you" (man, I would love to hear Heath say that line ;)) but Heath does such an amazing job at conveying his thoughts and emotions with his face and eyes that maybe it doesn't matter too much.
Not sure about Ang Lee's thoughts about Ennis demonstrating his love in later scenes, mind - the most powerful demonstration of Ennis's love comes in the reunion kiss, which takes place before the motel scene and I can't think of anywhere later in the film where Ennis admits his feelings???
Don't suppose anyone knows if they actually filmed any more of the motel scene and then cut it?
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Yeah, I wish they hadn't omitted Ennis's confession about his gut cramps too....but maybe it would have felt wrong for "movie Ennis" to say something like that when the rest of the time he says so little?
"Story Ennis" is much more talkative about his feelings. There's times when I really wish some of the other dialogue from the story had been included - things like the "I like doin' it with women but, Jesus H, ain't nothin' like this" line and, of course, "I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin' about you" (man, I would love to hear Heath say that line ;)) but Heath does such an amazing job at conveying his thoughts and emotions with his face and eyes that maybe it doesn't matter too much.
Not sure about Ang Lee's thoughts about Ennis demonstrating his love in later scenes, mind - the most powerful demonstration of Ennis's love comes in the reunion kiss, which takes place before the motel scene and I can't think of anywhere later in the film where Ennis admits his feelings???
Don't suppose anyone knows if they actually filmed any more of the motel scene and then cut it?
Don't get my hopes up about that, it will do something to my sanity!
I believe Ennis does demonstrate his love for Jack in later scenes, although they may not be as obvious as in the reunion scene. Are you meaning physically demonstrating his love with Jack or in other ways? We know Ennis is unable to convey his love with words, but the way he breaks down and admits he can't stand it anymore when they argue, says to me how much Ennis loves Jack. And the fact he can't stand the thought of Jack with other men demonstrates his jealous feelings. And then when he finds the shirts.......the way he holds them, trying to smell Jack, that to me, says everything about how Ennis felt about Jack.
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Christie, you're right - Ennis does demonstrate his love later on. I just got the feeling that the previous poster's comment about Ang Lee suggested Ennis actually said something later on, which obviously he doesn't.
You're not alone, by the way - I'd love it if there was more to that motel scene than ended up in the movie. That really would be something to look forward to in the special edition DVD, assuming that will happen sooner or later. 'Course, right now, I'm still looking forward to getting my normal DVD.....
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What touches me as much as the movie itself, is the feeling and dedication that Jake and Heath put into everything they did. In the special features Jake said he wanted to do the best he could to make it authentic, and Heath said he didn't want to be the one who screwed it up. They both put their hearts and souls into this incredible film. Donna
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Christie, you're right - Ennis does demonstrate his love later on. I just got the feeling that the previous poster's comment about Ang Lee suggested Ennis actually said something later on, which obviously he doesn't.
You're not alone, by the way - I'd love it if there was more to that motel scene than ended up in the movie. That really would be something to look forward to in the special edition DVD, assuming that will happen sooner or later. 'Course, right now, I'm still looking forward to getting my normal DVD.....
I understand your confusion about Ennis demonstrating his love - but with Ennis, nothing was ever clear cut and obvious was it? Poor Jack, he must have loved Ennis so much too, otherwise he wouldn't have put up with the way Ennis was for so long. :'(
I try really hard not to think about the possiblity of a super deluxe collectors/directors cut edition of the DVD, as so much has been speculated upon but nothing concrete so far to suggest there ever will be one. I just hope and pray that one day there will be one. All the you tube stuff, and the other behind-the-scenes stuff will have to do us for now, I suppose.
I'm so looking forward to the 24th, not long to go now! I saw my first ad for the DVD on Sunday in the paper - it was a huge full page colour ad with "Proudly own it on DVD" written across the top! Honestly, when I saw it, my heart did a little dance, and I felt all warm and happy inside!!
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christie, thanks for starting this thread. It is one of my very favorites. I am definitely more of an Ennis/Heath fan, although I love both our boys, and I can hardly stand to watch this scene--at the same time that I want to watch it again and again. It actually makes me feel shaky, sad and proud, and yearning for Jack to know his love--all at the same time. :-\
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christie, thanks for starting this thread. It is one of my very favorites. I am definitely more of an Ennis/Heath fan, although I love both our boys, and I can hardly stand to watch this scene--at the same time that I want to watch it again and again. It actually makes me feel shaky, sad and proud, and yearning for Jack to know his love--all at the same time. :-\
I'm glad I started this thread too shieldmaid! I was surprised it hadn't been started already to be honest, this scene to me is so powerful. I know I've said this previously, but watching it for the first time, I was so unprepared for what was about to happen. I just thought he would walk off and the scene would fade to black.....then when it cut back to Ennis and we see him from the alleyway, and he moves towards it, holding his stomach, leans against the wall, trying to throw up, and then banging the wall, shouting (at himself?) and then that awful, stifled sob.....god, I was a mess. I was so full of mixed emotions.....sad for Ennis because of how he was feeling, but mad at Ennis for not telling Jack how he felt.....and sad for Jack, because he had no clue how their parting had affected Ennis.
Talk about a bag of mixed emotions......but mainly sadness, for Ennis and Jack caught up in this situation.
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christie, thanks for starting this thread. It is one of my very favorites. I am definitely more of an Ennis/Heath fan, although I love both our boys, and I can hardly stand to watch this scene--at the same time that I want to watch it again and again. It actually makes me feel shaky, sad and proud, and yearning for Jack to know his love--all at the same time. :-
Yes, Christie - great thread to start, thank you!
The first time I saw Brokeback, I remember getting little emotional aches and bruises during all the scenes up on the mountain, from watching Jack's vulnerability after FNIT, seeing Ennis's barely controlled panic when he realizes their time together is being cut short, him going off to sit alone in the meadow as Jack is packing up. All those things had already started to tie me in knots.
But when Ennis broke down in that alley, that was my "Uh-Oh" scene. I thought, "what the hell have I let myself in for??". Talk about taking a blow to the heart. I still have the bruises. This scene took the film to a whole different level and just kept you grabbed by the throat from there. Really pivotal to the rest of their love story, definitely. :'(
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The first time I saw Brokeback, I remember getting little emotional aches and bruises during all the scenes up on the mountain, from watching Jack's vulnerability after FNIT, seeing Ennis's barely controlled panic when he realizes their time together is being cut short, him going off to sit alone in the meadow as Jack is packing up. All those things had already started to tie me in knots.
Miss----Red, wonderful description of Ennis on their last day on the mountain. I have never been able to find the right words, but you have..."barely controlled panic" that's perfect. For both of them, I think that's what their fight was all about. Their parting was agony for both of them. :'( Donna
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I'm glad I started this thread too shieldmaid! I was surprised it hadn't been started already to be honest, this scene to me is so powerful. I know I've said this previously, but watching it for the first time, I was so unprepared for what was about to happen.
Unprepared, yes.
Truth is it wasn't entirely clear to me that Ennis and Jack were so in love by the time they came down. Ennis in particular let his exteriour facade crack and his true emotions show through. This macho, quiet spoken, practically emotionless man crawled into a hole and broke down crying like a baby because he had to leave the man he had come to love. What they shared up there was more than just a couple of lonely guys in the mountains keeping each other company & fooling around. They were in love, and it broke his heart to have to let Jack drive off, knowing that they were destined to never be together like they wanted
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This scene tears me apart, I have seen the movie only once so far but nearly every bbm video on youtube seems to have that scene, it has the same effect on me every time, when I hear thes songs on the radio, the image of Ennis in the Alley is as clear as day in front of me, so difficult at times. :\'(
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I'm glad I started this thread too shieldmaid! I was surprised it hadn't been started already to be honest, this scene to me is so powerful. I know I've said this previously, but watching it for the first time, I was so unprepared for what was about to happen.
Unprepared, yes.
Truth is it wasn't entirely clear to me that Ennis and Jack were so in love by the time they came down. Ennis in particular let his exteriour facade crack and his true emotions show through. This macho, quiet spoken, practically emotionless man crawled into a hole and broke down crying like a baby because he had to leave the man he had come to love. What they shared up there was more than just a couple of lonely guys in the mountains keeping each other company & fooling around. They were in love, and it broke his heart to have to let Jack drive off, knowing that they were destined to never be together like they wanted
frances,you just wrote here, my thoughts..and so clearly.
thank you <^( <^(
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I don't think he knew, or would have acknowledged it if he did, that he loved Jack at this point. He appears to be in the grip of powerful emotions which are too inchoate for him to recognise. The violence seems to me to be Ennis's normal outlet for emotion - even with Jack at the end, when he can't cope with the situation, he turns what was a play-fight into a real one. If he were to face his feelings, he's have to admit the unthinkable, that he's attracted to a man. in the ss he says in the motel scene that it wasn' till about a year later that he realised he shouldn't have let Jack go - that's Ennis, fighting his instincts for a year and even then never doing anything about them. Tis scene always makes me realise that Ennis is always trapped and limited and bound in - by convention, duty, economics, whatever - and the only place he ever gives in to his deepest feelings is on the mountain with Jack.
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This scene resonated with me strongly. I wonder how often all of us walk away from a situation that may have made us happy. Once I went to a week-long art workshop in the Smoky Mountains. When I drove away at the end of the week, I cried because that one week had been so idyllic and I had grown close to many of the other artists there and knew I would never see them again. There was no love involved here, but just the feelings of the end of something so great and enjoyable as being with like-minded people in a closed setting. I think Ennis and Jack had this same feeling. They had just spent a few months together, alone in an idyllic setting with no interruptions ( or very few) from the outside world. They became everything to one another for that period of time. Now, that was over --- maybe forever. How sad! Such a realization had to make both of them sad. They both longed to continue the experience, but that was not possible. Since Ennis was committed to Alma, he felt he had to be a man of his word and leave, eventhough it was the hardest thing he ever did in his life. I LOVE this scene. It was such a surprise in the movie and hit me hard.
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You summed that up well lamusica. I too can remember those moments, even when if you do know that you will see the people again in the future it can be very sad to be leaving the current memories behind.
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This scene resonated with me strongly. I wonder how often all of us walk away from a situation that may have made us happy. Once I went to a week-long art workshop in the Smoky Mountains. When I drove away at the end of the week, I cried because that one week had been so idyllic and I had grown close to many of the other artists there and knew I would never see them again. There was no love involved here, but just the feelings of the end of something so great and enjoyable as being with like-minded people in a closed setting. I think Ennis and Jack had this same feeling. They had just spent a few months together, alone in an idyllic setting with no interruptions ( or very few) from the outside world. They became everything to one another for that period of time. Now, that was over --- maybe forever. How sad! Such a realization had to make both of them sad. They both longed to continue the experience, but that was not possible. Since Ennis was committed to Alma, he felt he had to be a man of his word and leave, eventhough it was the hardest thing he ever did in his life. I LOVE this scene. It was such a surprise in the movie and hit me hard.
This is the heart of the matter, and you have captured it beautifully -- with both hands.
How many times? Many more than I can remember. Now, there are just memories.
Ennis was certainly in love with Jack. What I think he did not realize that it was more than emotions.
Jack made Ennis's life whole. Jack made him entire. This is at the root of his love.
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I think Jack acted nonchalant about the prospect of leaving the mountain because he believed that they'd be seeing each other again. I really believe that. Even though Jack knew Ennis was planning to marry Alma, he probably thought that Ennis would not be able to go back to that life after what had happened on Brokeback. And also, do you remember the scene with the mixed up sheep and Ennis says to Jack "what if we need to work for Aguirre again? We have to ride this out Jack". I read that as Ennis, in his mind at that moment, thinking that there's a strong possibility of returning the following summer, if only to be with Jack again. And Jack must have heard that remark, and kept it close in his heart. But when they have to leave early, Ennis closes up, closing his head and his heart to everything that's happened, because he feels he has no choice. Heartbreaking.
I'm a total romantic too, and I am forever wondering what would have happened if!
I'm still catching up on all these wonderful threads. Characters, Scenes here is definitely a favorite. So I love reading everyone's comments very much -- lots of insight into this complex man.
I wouldn't call Jack exactly nonchalant when they were parting. I think he does show a lot of feeling -- he can't hide his feelings on his face even though he tries to by lowering his head and hiding behind his hat. I just think neither of them know how to go about saying overtly that they want to see each other again; certainly Ennis didn't know how, as we well know. Besides, as you said, Christie, his feeling he just has no choice.
What you said above is really good -- how both Jack and Ennis can be seen as holding out hope that they'll see each other again, based on what was said in those various scenes. But first, Ennis had to go back home...and this breaking down in the alley is so amazingly powerful. The whole thing, including how he still can't let it out -- can't vomit, just gag. And still hides it from the world. And that little cry at the end slays me every time (Heath, you are amazing), and how he stays there, bowed down, for a long time...and then (a technique I actually don't care for) the "Lead us not into temptation" heard from next scene while we're still looking at Ennis there, sick from his temptations...
kathy
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I hadn't seen this thread before, thanks to everyone for all your brilliantly expressed thoughts :) I find this scene so difficult to watch sometimes (like the scene with the shirts) Heath's performance is so powerful, especially when he bangs the wall, and then lets out that heartbreaking sob, it feels almost wrong to be watching, like intruding on his private expression of grief, but at the same time, it's so compelling, it's impossible not to watch :\'(
OT, I was doing the washing up yesterday and the Beatles song "You've Got To Hide Your Love Away" came on the radio, and I immediately thought of this scene.
Here I stand, head in hand, turn my face to the wall
If (s)he's gone I can't go on
Feeling two foot small
Everywhere,people stare
Each and every day
I can feel them laugh at me
Then I hear them say
Hey, you've got to hide your love away
Brought tears to my eyes just picturing the scene :\'(
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Yes, this scene is always so moving to watch.
This is the first instance in the movie that I realized how hopelessly Ennis loved Jack.
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I hadn't seen this thread before, thanks to everyone for all your brilliantly expressed thoughts :) I find this scene so difficult to watch sometimes (like the scene with the shirts) Heath's performance is so powerful, especially when he bangs the wall, and then lets out that heartbreaking sob, it feels almost wrong to be watching, like intruding on his private expression of grief, but at the same time, it's so compelling, it's impossible not to watch :\'(
OT, I was doing the washing up yesterday and the Beatles song "You've Got To Hide Your Love Away" came on the radio, and I immediately thought of this scene.
Here I stand, head in hand, turn my face to the wall
If (s)he's gone I can't go on
Feeling two foot small
Everywhere,people stare
Each and every day
I can feel them laugh at me
Then I hear them say
Hey, you've got to hide your love away
Brought tears to my eyes just picturing the scene :\'(
The words of that song do say a lot don't they, so sad. This is one scene that is so difficult to get out of your head, it creeps into your mind so often throughout the day, especially when the radio is on, the eyes fill up and you wonder what they must think at work when you have such teary eyes all the time. You mention Heaths performance when he bangs the wall, it was difficult to watch how much anger he had in him.
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I hadn't seen this thread before, thanks to everyone for all your brilliantly expressed thoughts :) I find this scene so difficult to watch sometimes (like the scene with the shirts) Heath's performance is so powerful, especially when he bangs the wall, and then lets out that heartbreaking sob, it feels almost wrong to be watching, like intruding on his private expression of grief, but at the same time, it's so compelling, it's impossible not to watch :\'(
Beautify expressed thank you so much CrimsonSky
I to feel like that,as peeping through a keyhole...so I understand Ennis when he bursts at the intruder for watching him.
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I hadn't seen this thread before, thanks to everyone for all your brilliantly expressed thoughts :) I find this scene so difficult to watch sometimes (like the scene with the shirts) Heath's performance is so powerful, especially when he bangs the wall, and then lets out that heartbreaking sob, it feels almost wrong to be watching, like intruding on his private expression of grief, but at the same time, it's so compelling, it's impossible not to watch :\'(
Beautify expressed thank you so much CrimsonSky
I to feel like that,as peeping through a keyhole...so I understand Ennis when he bursts at the intruder for watching him.
Thank you,hpv, "peeping through a keyhole", you've summed it up perfectly.The way the scene is shot, it's like watching him from the other end of the alleyway, so when he shouts at the intruder, I feel like I have to look away myself. Breaks my heart, every time :\'(
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I hadn't seen this thread before, thanks to everyone for all your brilliantly expressed thoughts :) I find this scene so difficult to watch sometimes (like the scene with the shirts) Heath's performance is so powerful, especially when he bangs the wall, and then lets out that heartbreaking sob, it feels almost wrong to be watching, like intruding on his private expression of grief, but at the same time, it's so compelling, it's impossible not to watch :'(
I hadn't visited this thread before also. This scene gets to me everytime. What get's me in addition to his heart-breaking sob is finding out that, according to the short story, Ennis wasn't immediately sure what brought this about. At first I found this hard to believe. Once I began to really understand the deeply reserved nature of Ennis's emotions, this scene made perfect sense to me. If this had been Jack breaking down in the alley, he would have known right then and there it was the loss of Ennis he was crying over. This deeper understanding of Ennis makes this scene all the more heartbreaking to watch. I too feel as though I am intruding on a private moment that should be expressed alone. :'(
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I hadn't seen this thread before, thanks to everyone for all your brilliantly expressed thoughts :) I find this scene so difficult to watch sometimes (like the scene with the shirts) Heath's performance is so powerful, especially when he bangs the wall, and then lets out that heartbreaking sob, it feels almost wrong to be watching, like intruding on his private expression of grief, but at the same time, it's so compelling, it's impossible not to watch :\'(
OT, I was doing the washing up yesterday and the Beatles song "You've Got To Hide Your Love Away" came on the radio, and I immediately thought of this scene.
Here I stand, head in hand, turn my face to the wall
If (s)he's gone I can't go on
Feeling two foot small
Everywhere,people stare
Each and every day
I can feel them laugh at me
Then I hear them say
Hey, you've got to hide your love away
Brought tears to my eyes just picturing the scene :\'(
Oh, this about makes me cry -- beautiful words, and so apt. I wonder who Paul and/or John were thinking about when they wrote this -- who has to hide their love away except someone in love with someone where it's not acceptable to be...
kathy
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I hadn't seen this thread before, thanks to everyone for all your brilliantly expressed thoughts :) I find this scene so difficult to watch sometimes (like the scene with the shirts) Heath's performance is so powerful, especially when he bangs the wall, and then lets out that heartbreaking sob, it feels almost wrong to be watching, like intruding on his private expression of grief, but at the same time, it's so compelling, it's impossible not to watch :\'(
OT, I was doing the washing up yesterday and the Beatles song "You've Got To Hide Your Love Away" came on the radio, and I immediately thought of this scene.
Here I stand, head in hand, turn my face to the wall
If (s)he's gone I can't go on
Feeling two foot small
Everywhere,people stare
Each and every day
I can feel them laugh at me
Then I hear them say
Hey, you've got to hide your love away
Brought tears to my eyes just picturing the scene :\'(
Oh, this about makes me cry -- beautiful words, and so apt. I wonder who Paul and/or John were thinking about when they wrote this -- who has to hide their love away except someone in love with someone where it's not acceptable to be...
kathy
Just perfect, CrimsonSky
The song was written by John and dedicated to Beatles'manager Brian Epstein, always a loner, and confused and ashamed of his homosexuality
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It's strange that Ennis expresses what he can't articulate by hitting the wall repetitively, and Jack does the same thing during the FNIT, though I think Jack knows what's happening, he's just not in a state to say anything, and Ennis has no idea. Ennis reminds me of whoever it was who went on about "known knowns, and known unknowns and unknown unknowns" - Ennis's mind is full of unknown unknowns, which he doesn't even want to have there, much less come to undrstand.
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I hadn't seen this thread before, thanks to everyone for all your brilliantly expressed thoughts :) I find this scene so difficult to watch sometimes (like the scene with the shirts) Heath's performance is so powerful, especially when he bangs the wall, and then lets out that heartbreaking sob, it feels almost wrong to be watching, like intruding on his private expression of grief, but at the same time, it's so compelling, it's impossible not to watch :\'(
OT, I was doing the washing up yesterday and the Beatles song "You've Got To Hide Your Love Away" came on the radio, and I immediately thought of this scene.
Here I stand, head in hand, turn my face to the wall
If (s)he's gone I can't go on
Feeling two foot small
Everywhere,people stare
Each and every day
I can feel them laugh at me
Then I hear them say
Hey, you've got to hide your love away
Brought tears to my eyes just picturing the scene :\'(
Oh, this about makes me cry -- beautiful words, and so apt. I wonder who Paul and/or John were thinking about when they wrote this -- who has to hide their love away except someone in love with someone where it's not acceptable to be...
kathy
Just perfect, CrimsonSky
The song was written by John and dedicated to Beatles'manager Brian Epstein, always a loner, and confused and ashamed of his homosexuality
Thanks frances and kathy, glad I'm not alone in liking the song and seeing the connection to Ennis. I posted the whole lyrics, and mentioned about Brian Epstein, in the Songs That Remind You Of BBM thread :)
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I hadn't seen this thread before, thanks to everyone for all your brilliantly expressed thoughts :) I find this scene so difficult to watch sometimes (like the scene with the shirts) Heath's performance is so powerful, especially when he bangs the wall, and then lets out that heartbreaking sob, it feels almost wrong to be watching, like intruding on his private expression of grief, but at the same time, it's so compelling, it's impossible not to watch :\'(
OT, I was doing the washing up yesterday and the Beatles song "You've Got To Hide Your Love Away" came on the radio, and I immediately thought of this scene.
Here I stand, head in hand, turn my face to the wall
If (s)he's gone I can't go on
Feeling two foot small
Everywhere,people stare
Each and every day
I can feel them laugh at me
Then I hear them say
Hey, you've got to hide your love away
Brought tears to my eyes just picturing the scene :\'(
Oh, this about makes me cry -- beautiful words, and so apt. I wonder who Paul and/or John were thinking about when they wrote this -- who has to hide their love away except someone in love with someone where it's not acceptable to be...
kathy
Just perfect, CrimsonSky
The song was written by John and dedicated to Beatles'manager Brian Epstein, always a loner, and confused and ashamed of his homosexuality
Thanks frances and kathy, glad I'm not alone in liking the song and seeing the connection to Ennis. I posted the whole lyrics, and mentioned about Brian Epstein, in the Songs That Remind You Of BBM thread :)
Thanks all. This is a beautiful exchange. Wonderful insights, so fitting to the scene under discussion...
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I hadn't seen this thread before, thanks to everyone for all your brilliantly expressed thoughts :) I find this scene so difficult to watch sometimes (like the scene with the shirts) Heath's performance is so powerful, especially when he bangs the wall, and then lets out that heartbreaking sob, it feels almost wrong to be watching, like intruding on his private expression of grief, but at the same time, it's so compelling, it's impossible not to watch :\'(
OT, I was doing the washing up yesterday and the Beatles song "You've Got To Hide Your Love Away" came on the radio, and I immediately thought of this scene.
Here I stand, head in hand, turn my face to the wall
If (s)he's gone I can't go on
Feeling two foot small
Everywhere,people stare
Each and every day
I can feel them laugh at me
Then I hear them say
Hey, you've got to hide your love away
Brought tears to my eyes just picturing the scene :\'(
Oh, this about makes me cry -- beautiful words, and so apt. I wonder who Paul and/or John were thinking about when they wrote this -- who has to hide their love away except someone in love with someone where it's not acceptable to be...
kathy
Just perfect, CrimsonSky
The song was written by John and dedicated to Beatles'manager Brian Epstein, always a loner, and confused and ashamed of his homosexuality
Thank you, frances -- you're up on your Beatles, too. Wonderful that that song was written for a gay man... And in the same era as Ennis and Jack. Too sad.
kathy
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perfect, CrimsonSky
The song was written by John and dedicated to Beatles'manager Brian Epstein, always a loner, and confused and ashamed of his homosexuality
Thank you, frances -- you're up on your Beatles, too. Wonderful that that song was written for a gay man... And in the same era as Ennis and Jack. Too sad.
kathy
There was some speculation about a sexual relationship between John Lennon and Brian Epstein.
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Thank you, frances -- you're up on your Beatles, too. Wonderful that that song was written for a gay man... And in the same era as Ennis and Jack. Too sad.
kathy
*sigh* I wonder if they ever heard it, and it made them think of each other (whaddya mean, they're not real?!! ;) ;D)
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Thank you, frances -- you're up on your Beatles, too. Wonderful that that song was written for a gay man... And in the same era as Ennis and Jack. Too sad.
kathy
*sigh* I wonder if they ever heard it, and it made them think of each other (whaddya mean, they're not real?!! ;) ;D)
While I'm glad they didn't use more popular music in the film, other than the more timeless C/W music, I feel sure Ennis and Jack would have heard all the popular music of the times on the radio -- young people always find the cool new music -- and the Beatles were on TV, etc., and they did have TV's. Heck, they would have at least been into Elvis! Ennis might have thought the Beatles were too queer!
kathy
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What do you think was the reason why Ennis collapsed in the alleyway? I know that the SS says something like this: " he shouldn't have let him out of his sights" but was that the only reason?
I'm thinking that it was also maybe because Ennis realized that he is gay and there was no denying it.
Anymore reasons? Thoughts are welcome :)
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Hi Twisted, I merged your thread with this existing one, there was no new discussion on this matter since June 2006, hopefully your post we re-start the thread. :)
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Hi Twisted, I merged your thread with this existing one, there was no new discussion on this matter since June 2006, hopefully your post we re-start the thread. :)
Thank you Cham. :)
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What do you think was the reason why Ennis collapsed in the alleyway?
Anymore reasons? Thoughts are welcome :)
Well the SS spells it out like this:
"Right," said Jack, and they shook hands, hit each other on the shoulder; then there was forty feet of distance between them and nothing to do but drive away in opposite directions. Within a mile Ennis felt like someone was pulling his guts out hand over hand a yard at a time. He stopped at the side of the road and, in the whirling new snow, tried to puke but nothing came up. He felt about as bad as he ever had and it took a long time for the feeling to wear off.
But if I understand your question Twisted is not so much WHAT he felt, but WHY he felt. Am I right here? Not sure he understood why himself. Said as much years later with Jack in the motel. He didn't know why he was so torn up, couldn't see it (then). But he did see it eventually, enough to even tell Jack, as you say "he shouldn't a let him outta' his sights"
Personally I don't think the gay aspect enters into yet. I don't think Ennis can see or understand that yet, but I do think he's just said "Goodbye" to the person he'd loved more and felt closer too than anyone else in his life. And there wasn't much prospect for a future get together. His punch had put a damper on things, and both boys were struggling with emotions they little understood. As we see later Ennis strikes out violently when he encounters situations he doesn't understand or can't control, I feel he's striking out at himself here. In effect he's gut punching himself (course he does punch the wall) trying to make himself conform to a reality he wants, but not the one he feels. JMHO
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Well the SS spells it out like this:
"Right," said Jack, and they shook hands, hit each other on the shoulder; then there was forty feet of distance between them and nothing to do but drive away in opposite directions. Within a mile Ennis felt like someone was pulling his guts out hand over hand a yard at a time. He stopped at the side of the road and, in the whirling new snow, tried to puke but nothing came up. He felt about as bad as he ever had and it took a long time for the feeling to wear off.
But if I understand your question Twisted is not so much WHAT he felt, but WHY he felt. Am I right here? Not sure he understood why himself. Said as much years later with Jack in the motel. He didn't know why he was so torn up, couldn't see it (then). But he did see it eventually, enough to even tell Jack, as you say "he shouldn't a let him outta' his sights"
Personally I don't think the gay aspect enters into yet. I don't think Ennis can see or understand that yet, but I do think he's just said "Goodbye" to the person he'd loved more and felt closer too than anyone else in his life. And there wasn't much prospect for a future get together. His punch had put a damper on things, and both boys were struggling with emotions they little understood. As we see later Ennis strikes out violently when he encounters situations he doesn't understand or can't control, I feel he's striking out at himself here. In effect he's gut punching himself (course he does punch the wall) trying to make himself conform to a reality he wants, but not the one he feels. JMHO
I was about to write a reply to the question, then saw your post jackster, and you said some of the things that I've been thinking, mainly what I highlighted in red. According to the short story, Ennis didn't realize at the time why he felt so bad, he said later to Jack that it "took me about a year a figure out it was that I should'nt a let you out a my sights." But even if he didn't realize it back then, it was definitely a reaction to saying goodbye to Jack, the only person he ever loved, the best thing that ever happened to him, thinking that they'd probably never see each other again.
There's a slight difference between the story and the movie though. According to the story, Ennis thought he might've ate something bad that caused him to feel so bad - at least that's what he told Jack. But in the movie we see that he's not only trying to puke, he's also sobbing and punching the wall (which can't really be explained by food poisoning). He's angry and heartbroken. And I think that this change from the story opens up the scene to new interpretations. It shows a little more awareness on his part, awareness to what he'd just lost. And maybe anger at himself too?
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And maybe anger at himself too?
You bet keren. Like he's thinkin' NO, NO, I don't love him! In thinkin' about this scene I'm struck at the emotional similarity with the Thanksgiving scene in the kitchen when he lashes out at Alma, grabs her arm, ready to punch her. "You don't know nuthin' about it". Similar emotions rising, when confronted with his inner self, his anger and fear, met with an outward reaction of violence. Heath is so damn good here, understands the similarity of the moment, the similarity of emotions inside Ennis, one directed at Alma, the other directed at himself.
(Not the best actor of the year? [make that decade] gimme a break! sorry OT)
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I agree with Heath being the Best Actor of The Decade! Since you mentioned it, was anyone else as shocked as I was to see the rage he had when Alma confronted him? It still "blows me away"...hitting another man, maybe, but threatening your ex-wife like that (Woah)!
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I agree with Heath being the Best Actor of The Decade! Since you mentioned it, was anyone else as shocked as I was to see the rage he had when Alma confronted him? It still "blows me away"...hitting another man, maybe, but threatening your ex-wife like that (Woah)!
Yes, it was very shocking. But we get the idea that it wasn't the only time. Maybe not to the point of actually hitting, but near enough. You see on the 4th of July how fearful she seemed of his anger bursting out like it did. I suspect that, if he was drunk, he might well have hit Alma at some time during their marriage. Which, along with his failure as a provider, would have spurred her on, as the girls got older, to make her own life, get a job, eventually divorce...
kathy
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I am so glad you all revived this discussion. Thanks, Twisted, Cham.
Jackster, you the man!
Well the SS spells it out like this:
"Right," said Jack, and they shook hands, hit each other on the shoulder; then there was forty feet of distance between them and nothing to do but drive away in opposite directions. Within a mile Ennis felt like someone was pulling his guts out hand over hand a yard at a time. He stopped at the side of the road and, in the whirling new snow, tried to puke but nothing came up. He felt about as bad as he ever had and it took a long time for the feeling to wear off.
But if I understand your question Twisted is not so much WHAT he felt, but WHY he felt. Am I right here? Not sure he understood why himself. Said as much years later with Jack in the motel. He didn't know why he was so torn up, couldn't see it (then). But he did see it eventually, enough to even tell Jack, as you say "he shouldn't a let him outta' his sights"
Personally I don't think the gay aspect enters into yet. I don't think Ennis can see or understand that yet, but I do think he's just said "Goodbye" to the person he'd loved more and felt closer too than anyone else in his life. And there wasn't much prospect for a future get together. His punch had put a damper on things, and both boys were struggling with emotions they little understood. As we see later Ennis strikes out violently when he encounters situations he doesn't understand or can't control, I feel he's striking out at himself here. In effect he's gut punching himself (course he does punch the wall) trying to make himself conform to a reality he wants, but not the one he feels.[/i] JMHO
Ennis was lost and confused from the moment he saw Jack packing up. He sat on the hill trying to sort out his feelings with no reins but couldn't. Then Jack made it more difficult, with all the physical contact, the wrestling. The punch was out of frustration as much as anger. Ennis had no way of expressing how he felt, except through his fist.
As Jack drove away in the trust, Ennis was back to his lonely highway, long and dusty. Instead of pawing the white out of the moon, he was back to the grindstone, back to the dusty old road. Yeah, he was sick of it, because he was addicted to Jack by this point. Gut punching himself, that's clever, Jackster. I think you are right. He hated feeling being hooked, but also felt good being hooked. He was conflicted, and had to punch something.
As for Alma being afraid of Ennis, I think that's probably underplayed in the movie, and not much of it in the short story. I was shocked to see Alma's reaction, when Ennis came to the store with the two girls under his arms, and said "...I'd lose my job." Then Alma responded "What about my job?" And Ennis just simple flashed a mean look on his face before Alma submitted. I agree with you, Kathy, Atalley, that it was only a matter of time that Alma left Ennis, without or without Jack Twist.
That sure puts a different twist (no pun intended) on the question, "You ain't find anyone else to marry?"
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You bet keren. Like he's thinkin' NO, NO, I don't love him! In thinkin' about this scene I'm struck at the emotional similarity with the Thanksgiving scene in the kitchen when he lashes out at Alma, grabs her arm, ready to punch her. "You don't know nuthin' about it". Similar emotions rising, when confronted with his inner self, his anger and fear, met with an outward reaction of violence. Heath is so damn good here, understands the similarity of the moment, the similarity of emotions inside Ennis, one directed at Alma, the other directed at himself.
(Not the best actor of the year? [make that decade] gimme a break! sorry OT)
Again, I couldn't agree with you more Jackster. And good thing about the reaction of violence in both scenes, the alley scene and the confrontation scene.
When I think about it, for a lot of people, when they don't express their feelings verbally it comes out in another way, usually a physical way. Like when you feel miserable but you keep it all inside, and then you become ill. Ennis was a man who didn't know how to deal with his feelings, let alone express them, so they just came bursting out in another way. He couldn't tell Jack how devastated he felt over having to say goodbye to him, couldn't even accept what he was feeling and admit it to himself, and all this turmoil inside him made him feel physically ill because he couldn't express it. Felt like he ate something bad and needed to puke. Heath has realized that, as well as how this mechanism had led to violence in Ennis's case. He often said that he wanted Ennis to be like a clenched fist, unable to express himself, but I think I also read somewhere that he actually explained how this unability to express himself verbally comes out as violence. I wish I could find where I've read that. Ennis just didn't know how to deal with his feelings, how to express them in any other way.
And yes, he was angry at himself... this is how the screenplay described the breakdown scene:
He stumbles into an alley, drops to his knees. Kneels there, silent, as pain, longing, loneliness, overpower Ennis - emotions stronger than he's ever felt for another person consume him: he feels as bad and confused as he ever has in his life. Conflicted - he is angry at himself, for all that has happened, and for all that he is feeling. Punches the wall, bloodying both his knuckles.
One of the film's strongest scenes imo, and Heath did it perfectly.
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What do you think was the reason why Ennis collapsed in the alleyway? I know that the SS says something like this: " he shouldn't have let him out of his sights" but was that the only reason?
I'm thinking that it was also maybe because Ennis realized that he is gay and there was no denying it.
Anymore reasons? Thoughts are welcome :)
I think it was the stress of pretense that caused the collapse. When you try to go one way and your heart tells you to go the other way, you are certainly courting mental and physical collapse, as so many people can attest.
I think it went beyond the realization of sexual orientation. He collapsed because he is trying to be someone he really isn't.
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. . . . Heath has realized that, as well as how this mechanism had led to violence in Ennis's case. He often said that he wanted Ennis to be like a clenched fist, unable to express himself, but I think I also read somewhere that he actually explained how this unability to express himself verbally comes out as violence. Ennis just didn't know how to deal with his feelings, how to express them in any other way. . . .
One of the film's strongest scenes imo, and Heath did it perfectly.
Oh my, keren. Not to get to far OT here, but. I've often wondered how exactly Heath did this. Wondered what was inside him that made him see this, feel this, so he could display it with such luminosity on the screen. One of the many tragedies of his passing is that we'll never learn more about this from him. Sometimes as a person ages they relax and open up about themselves and their own story with the benefit of hindsight. It would have been wonderful to hear what Heath had to say about this in ten or fifteen years. How his own life colored his view of Ennis, (and of Jack). Sorry, I need to go cry in a corner now . . . . :\'(
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I think part of the beauty of their acting is that they were 100% committed to being Ennis and Jack. I think these emotions flowed from their hearts just as if they were Jack and Ennis in the flesh. Does that make sense? I think they would both be exhausted after each days work with this kind of intensity. :f)
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I think it was the stress of pretense that caused the collapse. When you try to go one way and your heart tells you to go the other way, you are certainly courting mental and physical collapse, as so many people can attest.
I think it went beyond the realization of sexual orientation. He collapsed because he is trying to be someone he really isn't.
This is the scene at which BBM got me. The very first time I saw it, I was just watching a movie -- until that scene. Then, I saw a "truth" I had never seen depicted before, but have experienced. I believe Ennis broke down over his bereavement. He suddenly realized he had lost Jack. After two months of being with him daily ( and <^( nightly), he was now without him totally. I experienced this type of bereavement one time after being with a group of artists for one whole week, being with these people everyday, engrossed in nature ( in Gatlinburg, TN), doing everything together, with the outside world completely forgotten. We didn't even watch the news on tv, no computers, no cell-phones -- just us together making art. As I drove out of the gates of the community (Arrowmont) into downtown Gatlinburg, my guts cramped, I broke down in sobs, and I felt as if a part of my lie was over, and I didn't want it to be over. It had been such a wonderful week, I had no desire to go back to my regular life.
So, when I saw Ennis acting out the feelings I had had several years earlier, I felt he was acting out his loss of Jack. He would now return to his regular life -- no Jack, no life with Jack, no sex with Jack,no Jack in any way, shape or form. Just total bereavement.
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Ennis was such a mixed up mess of emotions in this scene. He had just allowed Jack to drive off knowing he was the best friend he had ever made, he was angry at himself for doing it but also fearful of what else he might be feeling. His fear made him sick and he let it out by punching the wall. But in the end he couldn't help but cry over who and what had just driven out of his life. I really felt bad for Ennis he was in such pain and didn't understand it.
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All of your posts are beautiful, astute. This scene is so expressive of Ennis, of someone not being in touch with his feelings, his truth. And in those moments, he did indeed think that the best time of his life was over... A sad thing to think, at 19.
kathy
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This is such a hard scene to watch, his emotions were certainly a mess, he knew what he felt but I don't think he knew how he was going to deal with it, let alone accept it and kathy I agree I think he would have felt that his life was over, so very sad.
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Oh my, keren. Not to get to far OT here, but. I've often wondered how exactly Heath did this. Wondered what was inside him that made him see this, feel this, so he could display it with such luminosity on the screen. One of the many tragedies of his passing is that we'll never learn more about this from him. Sometimes as a person ages they relax and open up about themselves and their own story with the benefit of hindsight. It would have been wonderful to hear what Heath had to say about this in ten or fifteen years. How his own life colored his view of Ennis, (and of Jack). Sorry, I need to go cry in a corner now . . . . :\'(
:ghug: Jackster :ghug: thank you for this :\'( :ghug:
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This is the scene at which BBM got me. The very first time I saw it, I was just watching a movie -- until that scene. Then, I saw a "truth" I had never seen depicted before, but have experienced. I believe Ennis broke down over his bereavement. He suddenly realized he had lost Jack. After two months of being with him daily ( and <^( nightly), he was now without him totally. I experienced this type of bereavement one time after being with a group of artists for one whole week, being with these people everyday, engrossed in nature ( in Gatlinburg, TN), doing everything together, with the outside world completely forgotten. We didn't even watch the news on tv, no computers, no cell-phones -- just us together making art. As I drove out of the gates of the community (Arrowmont) into downtown Gatlinburg, my guts cramped, I broke down in sobs, and I felt as if a part of my lie was over, and I didn't want it to be over. It had been such a wonderful week, I had no desire to go back to my regular life.
So, when I saw Ennis acting out the feelings I had had several years earlier, I felt he was acting out his loss of Jack. He would now return to his regular life -- no Jack, no life with Jack, no sex with Jack,no Jack in any way, shape or form. Just total bereavement.
This is certainly a very valid point -- I would think that all of us would relate to it. True, it was like ending an idyll, and a sudden re-entry into the real world. I think all of us have experienced something like this at one time or another, no? It can also be thought of as the sinking feeling we have after waking up from a beautiful dream.
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All of your posts are beautiful, astute. This scene is so expressive of Ennis, of someone not being in touch with his feelings, his truth. And in those moments, he did indeed think that the best time of his life was over... A sad thing to think, at 19.
kathy
Perhaps his thoughts were true.
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Tpe, your comment that Ennis may have felt as we sometimes do when waking from a dream is right on. I have awoken from dreams and cried because I could not go back into that dream world and play out the whole story to the end. That is, I believe, Ennis's feelings exactly. That's how he feels, but I don't think he could put those feelings into words if he tried to.
Considering Ennis past life, I doubt that he had experienced anything that was so profound and so beautiful and fully emotional as this idyllic time spent on BBM with Jack. This was a new feeling for him -- that of having lost something so wonderful and feeling that he could never get it back.
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lamusica, tpe, :clap: beautiful words
Grief and bereavement in the alley, turned into anger and anguish.
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Tpe, your comment that Ennis may have felt as we sometimes do when waking from a dream is right on. I have awoken from dreams and cried because I could not go back into that dream world and play out the whole story to the end. That is, I believe, Ennis's feelings exactly. That's how he feels, but I don't think he could put those feelings into words if he tried to.
Considering Ennis past life, I doubt that he had experienced anything that was so profound and so beautiful and fully emotional as this idyllic time spent on BBM with Jack. This was a new feeling for him -- that of having lost something so wonderful and feeling that he could never get it back.
lamusica, tpe, :clap: beautiful words
Grief and bereavement in the alley, turned into anger and anguish.
Thanks lamusica and lance!
I think this was certainly part of the reason for the collapse in the alley: the realization thjat they could never go back. I feel that they knew this even then. Sure, jack came back the next summer -- hoping against hope. But I think he knew the outcome all along. It is this realization that makes the scene in the alley all the more poigniant.
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Thanks lamusica and lance!
I think this was certainly part of the reason for the collapse in the alley: the realization thjat they could never go back. I feel that they knew this even then. Sure, jack came back the next summer -- hoping against hope. But I think he knew the outcome all along. It is this realization that makes the scene in the alley all the more poigniant.
I think Ennis thought and knew for sure that they could never go back,yes;but also,somehow,that this time on the mountain has "awaken" some hidden and unknown feelings,another way of loving,that became a shock for him.The main reason for the collapse was having run away from his first and true love,doubtless; but also knowing that this love was another man and that was a handicap that separated them more than the simple end of the summer.Now that he had found true love he must come back to the real life,and do what society was waiting of him,what he didn't want to do inside himself...He must marry,he must bear children,he must love a woman...and he didn't want to.Because he had fallen in love with a boy,the same than Earl and Rich,and he knew he was never going to do the same things with him than with Alma.He was gay,and something inside him-in spite of all the pain for having loosing Jack...-was in trouble between what he wanted and what he must do,who he was and who he must be.I agree with Samira in that it wasn't too early to be shocked for his gay feelings; somebody so shocked as Ennis necessarily must feel this as something revolving.Even,I repeat,if his main concern was not seeing his love anymore.JMHO.
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I think Ennis thought and knew for sure that they could never go back,yes;but also,somehow,that this time on the mountain has "awaken" some hidden and unknown feelings,another way of loving,that became a shock for him.The main reason for the collapse was having run away from his first and true love,doubtless; but also knowing that this love was another man and that was a handicap that separated them more than the simple end of the summer.Now that he had found true love he must come back to the real life,and do what society was waiting of him,what he didn't want to do inside himself...He must marry,he must bear children,he must love a woman...and he didn't want to.Because he had fallen in love with a boy,the same than Earl and Rich,and he knew he was never going to do the same things with him than with Alma.He was gay,and something inside him-in spite of all the pain for having loosing Jack...-was in trouble between what he wanted and what he must do,who he was and who he must be.I agree with Samira in that it wasn't too early to be shocked for his gay feelings; somebody so shocked as Ennis necessarily must feel this as something revolving.Even,I repeat,if his main concern was not seeing his love anymore.JMHO.
This post is the words I have been trying to find for this scene, the parts that I bolded are my main thoughts, the realisation of what was and what was to be.
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This post is the words I have been trying to find for this scene, the parts that I bolded are my main thoughts, the realisation of what was and what was to be.
Thank you so much,Pauline ¡ ^f^ I'm glad we share our thoughts about Ennis; the realisation of what was and what was to be...
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I think Ennis thought and knew for sure that they could never go back,yes;but also,somehow,that this time on the mountain has "awaken" some hidden and unknown feelings,another way of loving,that became a shock for him.The main reason for the collapse was having run away from his first and true love,doubtless; but also knowing that this love was another man and that was a handicap that separated them more than the simple end of the summer.Now that he had found true love he must come back to the real life,and do what society was waiting of him,what he didn't want to do inside himself...He must marry,he must bear children,he must love a woman...and he didn't want to.Because he had fallen in love with a boy,the same than Earl and Rich,and he knew he was never going to do the same things with him than with Alma.He was gay,and something inside him-in spite of all the pain for having loosing Jack...-was in trouble between what he wanted and what he must do,who he was and who he must be.I agree with Samira in that it wasn't too early to be shocked for his gay feelings; somebody so shocked as Ennis necessarily must feel this as something revolving.Even,I repeat,if his main concern was not seeing his love anymore.JMHO.
Yes, For me, the collapse in the alley was caused primarily by his turning away from Jack -- against the wished of his own heart. Turning away from Jack was equivalent to turning away from himself. This, couple with his belief that he would never go back (i.e., never see jack again), went contrary to his very nature. It is revealing to note that during the next 4 years, he still hoped against hope that Jack would get in touch with him, even thouigh he himself seemed resigned to the permanence of separation.
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...the realisation of what was and what was to be.
Indeed, it is.
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As I've already told in some other threads,yesterday my Alma declared that the reason why Ennis breaks down in the alley is not only,or even not mainly,for having leave Jack.But that the fact he's puking is due to the loathing he feels against himself for having became "a queer"; and that,bearing in mind his attitude in later scenes,this is what guided his behaviour during all his life...That he could feel "something" for Jack,but that this "something" soon turned into a lot of questions to himself about what we was going to do in the "normal" life with or without Jack;because he had been "marked" for the awful level of "fag" and,so,he felt unable to face Alma and a "normal man's life" after that.Because he asked to himself"why this man attracted him so much" and why this had to occur...In sum,that puke was an inner reaction of his loathing against himself,his nonacceptance of his feelings and his deepest way of being.I don't know if this makes sense...
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As I've already told in some other threads,yesterday my Alma declared that the reason why Ennis breaks down in the alley is not only,or even not mainly,for having leave Jack.But that the fact he's puking is due to the loathing he feels against himself for having became "a queer"; and that,bearing in mind his attitude in later scenes,this is what guided his behaviour during all his life...That he could feel "something" for Jack,but that this "something" soon turned into a lot of questions to himself about what we was going to do in the "normal" life with or without Jack;because he had been "marked" for the awful level of "fag" and,so,he felt unable to face Alma and a "normal man's life" after that.Because he asked to himself"why this man attracted him so much" and why this had to occur...In sum,that puke was an inner reaction of his loathing against himself,his nonacceptance of his feelings and his deepest way of being.I don't know if this makes sense...
Myprivatejack - Have you or your Alma read the BBM short story? I can see why your Alma might feel that Ennis was puking out of self-loathing for becoming a 'queer', but in the short story when Ennis and Jack part after their summer on Brokeback, it clearly reads, "Within a mile Ennis felt like someone was pulling his guts out hand over hand a yard at a time. He stopped at the side of the road and, in the whirling new snow, tried to puke but nothing came up. He felt about as bad as he ever had and it took a long time for the feeling to wear off."
Later at their reunion after four years, Ennis tells Jack, "That summer," said Ennis."When we split up after we got paid out I had gut cramps so bad I pulled over and tried to puke, thought I ate somethin bad at that place in Dubois. Took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long, long while."
Maybe later, when he had time to think about his summer with Jack, Ennis may have felt guilt and/or self-loathing, but at that moment of parting Ennis was in emotional PAIN. Emotions are ENERGY IN MOTION in the body. Ennis tried to act stoic and unconcerned (unaffected) about leaving Jack, but his body could not lie and could not hold the pain in. Trying to hold that energy in would be like trying to hold a beach ball under water...it would take a lot of energy to hold it down.
I have three children and when they were young I read in a parenting book that when young children are in emotional pain they will have 'temper tantrums' because they do not know how to verbalize their pain. They will fall on the ground, scream, cry and strike out (hit) at others to show their pain. The children feel totally vulnerable and if someone tries to touch them they will hit, scratch and bite (like Ennis yelling at the passing cowboy). Ennis was not able to verbalize his pain and he could not hold that pain (energy) in his body.
Loathing and guilt might make a person 'puke' but GRIEF will drive a person to their knees.
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Myprivatejack - Have you or your Alma read the BBM short story? I can see why your Alma might feel that Ennis was puking out of self-loathing for becoming a 'queer', but in the short story when Ennis and Jack part after their summer on Brokeback, it clearly reads, "Within a mile Ennis felt like someone was pulling his guts out hand over hand a yard at a time. He stopped at the side of the road and, in the whirling new snow, tried to puke but nothing came up. He felt about as bad as he ever had and it took a long time for the feeling to wear off."
Later at their reunion after four years, Ennis tells Jack, "That summer," said Ennis."When we split up after we got paid out I had gut cramps so bad I pulled over and tried to puke, thought I ate somethin bad at that place in Dubois. Took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long, long while."
Maybe later, when he had time to think about his summer with Jack, Ennis may have felt guilt and/or self-loathing, but at that moment of parting Ennis was in emotional PAIN. Emotions are ENERGY IN MOTION in the body. Ennis tried to act stoic and unconcerned (unaffected) about leaving Jack, but his body could not lie and could not hold the pain in. Trying to hold that energy in would be like trying to hold a beach ball under water...it would take a lot of energy to hold it down.
I have three children and when they were young I read in a parenting book that when young children are in emotional pain they will have 'temper tantrums' because they do not know how to verbalize their pain. They will fall on the ground, scream, cry and strike out (hit) at others to show their pain. The children feel totally vulnerable and if someone tries to touch them they will hit, scratch and bite (like Ennis yelling at the passing cowboy). Ennis was not able to verbalize his pain and he could not hold that pain (energy) in his body.
Loathing and guilt might make a person 'puke' but GRIEF will drive a person to their knees.
My thoughts exactly!
In another thread I also said that in SS the reason for his gut cramps were accurately described. No doubt about the reason!
There's another point here - facing Alma after Brokeback and Jack: sure it was difficult, but no SS nor the movie pay any attention to it. Cos the pain for leaving Jack was much deeper and harder for Ennis. After Brokeback - the life he had once known, life he was going back to, seemed like a punishment. And Ennis was aware that his most beautiful times in all his not so fortunate life are over. He grieved deeply and fell on his knees.
IMO there's not a slightest disgust or self loath for having an affair with Jack, just an immense sadness for not having it any more.
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As I've already told in some other threads,yesterday my Alma declared that the reason why Ennis breaks down in the alley is not only,or even not mainly,for having leave Jack.But that the fact he's puking is due to the loathing he feels against himself for having became "a queer"; and that,bearing in mind his attitude in later scenes,this is what guided his behaviour during all his life...That he could feel "something" for Jack,but that this "something" soon turned into a lot of questions to himself about what we was going to do in the "normal" life with or without Jack;because he had been "marked" for the awful level of "fag" and,so,he felt unable to face Alma and a "normal man's life" after that.Because he asked to himself"why this man attracted him so much" and why this had to occur...In sum,that puke was an inner reaction of his loathing against himself,his nonacceptance of his feelings and his deepest way of being.I don't know if this makes sense...
I'm sure your Alma was not the only one who thought that. In fact, I went to see the movie once with a good friend of mine and her boyfriend, and this is what they thought too. For me it was the 5th or the 6th time that I watched the movie, and I've already read the SS by then, so I explained to them the reason behind Ennis's breakdown. But my friend's boyfriend said that he thought Ennis was disgusted by himself and hated himself for what happened, and this is why he nearly puked.
I can see why a person would think that - Ennis was after all a homophobic man who tried to convince himself that he wasn't "queer". As Heath said, "he hated the way he loved". So from the way they parted, after having that fight on the mountain, I can see why some people whould think that. But the SS tells us the real reason for his breakdown - the pain over saying goodbye to Jack, his only chance of happiness. He was not ready to admit to himself that he loved Jack and didn't want to let him go, but his body reacted to what he felt.
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Myprivatejack - Have you or your Alma read the BBM short story?
Oh,my,Jeseanne ¡ I've just explained Alma's opinion about Ennis reaction's reasons;that,if you have read it properly,I have described as"unpleasant".You don't need to convince me;it's been a long time I'm convinced enough... ;D So,please,don't kill the messenger...
My thoughts exactly!
In another thread I also said that in SS the reason for his gut cramps were accurately described. No doubt about the reason!
There's another point here - facing Alma after Brokeback and Jack: sure it was difficult, but no SS nor the movie pay any attention to it. Cos the pain for leaving Jack was much deeper and harder for Ennis. After Brokeback - the life he had once known, life he was going back to, seemed like a punishment. And Ennis was aware that his most beautiful times in all his not so fortunate life are over. He grieved deeply and fell on his knees.
IMO there's not a slightest disgust or self loath for having an affair with Jack, just an immense sadness for not having it any more.
Of course,I agree with that completely,because SS description doesn't give any place for doubt about that.And I agree also with you,Loreen,in that Ennis knew perfectly in this very moment,that his former life before BBM was going to come back again to him,beating him in his deepest self like a boxer push.He supposed these good times weren't going to come back again,and that's the reason he appears fairly more broken down than Jack;who was preparing his baggages to come down from BBM almost with happiness,because he still had the hope they were going to meet each other in "their normal life".Ennis knew they weren't,he denied this,to himself and to Jack,and this part of him who loved BBM time was absolutely devastated.
But-even if it can seem I'm defending Alma's point of view-,you must bear in mind that the movie offered some differences from SS,and this is one of these differences.I mean,IMO,movie's Ennis is far more homophobic and afraid of his feelings than SS Ennis; in the story,he confesses he had these gut cramps because he mustn't let Jack out of his sights,while movie's Ennis was never willing to confess such a thing before his lover.Don't forget that.So,the possibility that in the movie,Ennis was,even a little,disgusting for their relationship,is not so far away from truth.As a matter of fact,he was going to face "normal life",where he had to be a "normal man",and do what "normal men" do,for what he wasn't prepared after his experience;it's as if he thought he was marked with the ominous level of "queer",in the moment when precisely he must be all the contrary,facing Alma and the life she offered to him from this very moment onwards.Why,then,can't his feelings in the alley be a mixture of all this,bearing in mind his homophobia's degree?.I don't know if I have explained myself well enough...But,please,don't attack me ¡. #)
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I'm sure your Alma was not the only one who thought that. In fact, I went to see the movie once with a good friend of mine and her boyfriend, and this is what they thought too. For me it was the 5th or the 6th time that I watched the movie, and I've already read the SS by then, so I explained to them the reason behind Ennis's breakdown. But my friend's boyfriend said that he thought Ennis was disgusted by himself and hated himself for what happened, and this is why he nearly puked.
I can see why a person would think that - Ennis was after all a homophobic man who tried to convince himself that he wasn't "queer". As Heath said, "he hated the way he loved". So from the way they parted, after having that fight on the mountain, I can see why some people would think that. But the SS tells us the real reason for his breakdown - the pain over saying goodbye to Jack, his only chance of happiness. He was not ready to admit to himself that he loved Jack and didn't want to let him go, but his body reacted to what he felt.
Above all,thank you,Karen,for understanding her reasons and respect her opinion,that,for me,it's like respecting me too... :^^) Well,I think I have answered in my former post,so I only can add to yours that that's the point;Ennis,we must admit it,sometimes hated himself for feeling the way he did,and,consequently,sometimes even hated Jack himself for making him feeling that way.It's one of the multiple contradictions in Ennis way of being,always marked for his inner fights between his feelings and his wishes to live them fully and the denial of these feelings and HIS WISHES FOR BEING A STRAIGHT MAN.Great struggle and very bad moments to live,poor Ennis,but it's true¡.You speak about this struggle very well: He was not ready to admit to himself that he loved Jack and didn't want to let him go, but his body reacted to what he felt. He had no control about his emotions and reactions,but there was even the littlest part of him that was asking to himself:-"What am I going to do from now onwards?Am I going to be a "normal man" again instead of a "queer"? If I have always refused this,why this must have happenned to me?"...I suppose this is what Alma meant,even if the way she did was a little,let's say,"in a very little Brokie style"...
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Of course,I agree with that completely,because SS description doesn't give any place for doubt about that.And I agree also with you,Loreen,in that Ennis knew perfectly in this very moment,that his former life before BBM was going to come back again to him,beating him in his deepest self like a boxer push.He supposed these good times weren't going to come back again,and that's the reason he appears fairly more broken down than Jack;who was preparing his baggages to come down from BBM almost with happiness,because he still had the hope they were going to meet each other in "their normal life".Ennis knew they weren't,he denied this,to himself and to Jack,and this part of him who loved BBM time was absolutely devastated.
But-even if it can seem I'm defending Alma's point of view-,you must bear in mind that the movie offered some differences from SS,and this is one of these differences.I mean,IMO,movie's Ennis is far more homophobic and afraid of his feelings than SS Ennis; in the story,he confesses he had these gut cramps because he mustn't let Jack out of his sights,while movie's Ennis was never willing to confess such a thing before his lover.Don't forget that.So,the possibility that in the movie,Ennis was,even a little,disgusting for their relationship,is not so far away from truth.As a matter of fact,he was going to face "normal life",where he had to be a "normal man",and do what "normal men" do,for what he wasn't prepared after his experience;it's as if he thought he was marked with the ominous level of "queer",in the moment when precisely he must be all the contrary,facing Alma and the life she offered to him from this very moment onwards.Why,then,can't his feelings in the alley be a mixture of all this,bearing in mind his homophobia's degree?.I don't know if I have explained myself well enough...But,please,don't attack me ¡. #)
^^) I won't attack you! ^^)
;D
Yes, dear! Surely it was a mixture of many emotions as Ennis was far that a simple person. At the same time I believe that the most important thing was - departing from Jack and from Brokeback.
Also, SS and the movie can have some differences, but this would be an unexpected change. Cos that moment of Ennis broken in the alley is very important in SS (and it's prolonged for a long period), and all of the sudden in movie should have a completely different meaning??? &*& I don't think so, but feel free to attack me! :c)
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OT: please no attacking each other here. ;)
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OT: please no attacking each other here. ;)
*o) Repeat that if you dare! ^^)
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OT: please no attacking each other here. ;)
:8 Nobody is attacking nobody here,Thomas,don't worry;it was just a way of speaking ¡.Even if it would be funnier... ^-^
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:8 Nobody is attacking nobody here,Thomas,don't worry;it was just a way of speaking ¡.Even if it would be funnier... ^-^
^-^ :P
;)
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^^) I won't attack you! ^^)
;D
Yes, dear! Surely it was a mixture of many emotions as Ennis was far that a simple person. At the same time I believe that the most important thing was - departing from Jack and from Brokeback.
Also, SS and the movie can have some differences, but this would be an unexpected change. Cos that moment of Ennis broken in the alley is very important in SS (and it's prolonged for a long period), and all of the sudden in movie should have a completely different meaning??? &*& I don't think so, but feel free to attack me! :c)
I would never attack you,dear¡ x***x You're right,Ennis was a very complicated person,a contradiction with legs,and what happenned to him in BBM crashed frontally with his personal rules and education,that's not to forget...
What I don't agree with so much is in what you say:-... that moment of Ennis broken in the alley is very important in SS (and it's prolonged for a long period), and all of the sudden in movie should have a completely different meaning??? .Oh,no,I'm not saying that exactly,I wasn't explain myself well enough¡.What I meant is that Ennis in the SS was more willing to confess his feelings to Jack,meanwhile in the movie he is more closed in himself,and more afraid of his feelings,more homophobic,as I said formerly.Of course,he breaks down in the alley for the same reasons that in SS,but it's more than probable that the crash against what had happenned in his life in BBM and what was going to happen in his life from that moment onwards,has something to do with this break down.It's not a completely different meaning,but a slight shade;I think that what Alma tried to mean in her non Brokie style...
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I would never attack you,dear¡ x***x You're right,Ennis was a very complicated person,a contradiction with legs,and what happenned to him in BBM crashed frontally with his personal rules and education,that's not to forget...
What I don't agree with so much is in what you say:-... that moment of Ennis broken in the alley is very important in SS (and it's prolonged for a long period), and all of the sudden in movie should have a completely different meaning??? .Oh,no,I'm not saying that exactly,I wasn't explain myself well enough¡.What I meant is that Ennis in the SS was more willing to confess his feelings to Jack,meanwhile in the movie he is more closed in himself,and more afraid of his feelings,more homophobic,as I said formerly.Of course,he breaks down in the alley for the same reasons that in SS,but it's more than probable that the crash against what had happenned in his life in BBM and what was going to happen in his life from that moment onwards,has something to do with this break down.It's not a completely different meaning,but a slight shade;I think that what Alma tried to mean in her non Brokie style...
You wouldn't?? :(
%&) Pity! :-X
I know what you mean. It is a shade, and yes, I admit that the alley scene IS a mixture of feelings, with one which was the most important. Sure, your Alma is not so familiar with everything and explained it in a way that maybe some people would do.
When I was watching the movie for the first time, I immediately figured out why he's "vomiting" in the alley. Even I started to watch the movie half an hour after the beginning, and the movie had no impact on me whatsoever then. So, at that time I wasn't Brokie... well I wasn't even B of a Brokie. I didn't read the SS, and had no love for Ennis or Jack, or for their love. Still, in my mind I knew why he was so broken in the alley. So, maybe it's just that we all see the things in different way. :s)
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If I recall the reaction of some people, some were confused about why he was going through this in that scene -- was he sickened by the way he felt for Jack or was he sickened by trying to suppress the way he felt for Jack?
Possibly both...
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If I recall the reaction of some people, some were confused about why he was going through this in that scene -- was he sickened by the way he felt for Jack or was he sickened by trying to suppress the way he felt for Jack?
Possibly both...
I think both,and also for having "fallen" in what he had been told it was so bad since he was 9.I also think it was a mixture of feelings,but what predominated the most was having to separate himself from the only person-besides his mother-who had given him some love,friendship,affection and real company,not only the gay sex he was so much afraid of.
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I think both,and also for having "fallen" in what he had been told it was so bad since he was 9.I also think it was a mixture of feelings,but what predominated the most was having to separate himself from the only person-besides his mother-who had given him some love,friendship,affection and real company,not only the gay sex he was so much afraid of.
Yes! That's it!
I always say that their misfortune childhood had a huge influence on them yearning and hunger each other. They needed pure love, like a boy needs his mother, and they gave each other that love. The physical part came with it, in fact it was more emphasized cos of that love.
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My friend's mother had the dry heaves in the hospital after her husband died..nothing would come up.....Ennis physically wilted...mind utterly parched...drained...emotions stifled except anger of the passing stranger...almost felt like he was no longer in existence...
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I think both,and also for having "fallen" in what he had been told it was so bad since he was 9.I also think it was a mixture of feelings,but what predominated the most was having to separate himself from the only person-besides his mother-who had given him some love,friendship,affection and real company,not only the gay sex he was so much afraid of.
Yes! That's it!
I always say that their misfortune childhood had a huge influence on them yearning and hunger each other. They needed pure love, like a boy needs his mother, and they gave each other that love. The physical part came with it, in fact it was more emphasized cos of that love.
Exactly. I think it was the conflicting feelings that tore him apart. I am sure that even as he was saying goodbye to a reluctant Jack, he was torn between what he wanted to do (continue to be with Jack) and what he felt he had to do (end the entire thing.)
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My friend's mother had the dry heaves in the hospital after her husband died..nothing would come up.....Ennis physically wilted...mind utterly parched...drained...emotions stifled except anger of the passing stranger...almost felt like he was no longer in existence...
"Parched" is a good descriptive word for what must have been Ennis's state deep inside. We get the feeling that he is at that moment a person desperate in wanting something but resolute in the belief that there is nothing to be had.
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Exactly. I think it was the conflicting feelings that tore him apart. I am sure that even as he was saying goodbye to a reluctant Jack, he was torn between what he wanted to do (continue to be with Jack) and what he felt he had to do (end the entire thing.)
I'm almost completely sure about this.It was a mixture of contradictory feelings that made an explosion inside him.
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I'm almost completely sure about this.It was a mixture of contradictory feelings that made an explosion inside him.
It was something more complex than just sadness. Plain tears would not have done it justice...
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Heath portrayed the inner turmoil perfectly. He knew his Ennis through & through. :c)
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I would even say that he added depth to the character of Ennis, as conceived by Proulx. He didn't have to create it from scratch, but he added more to it than was required of him. In this scene, we see an excellent interpretation, wherein he inhabits pain like a shirt or a piece of clothing.
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Heath portrayed the inner turmoil perfectly. He knew his Ennis through & through. :c)
This is what Ang Lee said about heath and that scene:
Ang Lee Remembers Heath Ledger
by Leilani Labong
What is your favorite memory of him?
It also happens to be one of my favorite shots of my career: his “barfing” scene in Brokeback, when he was hitting the wall with his fists. We were on the third take, his fists were bleeding, he’d literally spilled all his guts, and something in the background struck me as being perfect. I think it was the clouds. I wanted to do another take, but Heath was totally exhausted. My producer said, “That’s bullshit. The actor has had enough.” But the clouds were perfect! We did another take, and after it was over, Heath said, “Wow. That felt good.”
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This is what Ang Lee said about heath and that scene:
Ang Lee Remembers Heath Ledger
by Leilani Labong
What is your favorite memory of him?
It also happens to be one of my favorite shots of my career: his “barfing” scene in Brokeback, when he was hitting the wall with his fists. We were on the third take, his fists were bleeding, he’d literally spilled all his guts, and something in the background struck me as being perfect. I think it was the clouds. I wanted to do another take, but Heath was totally exhausted. My producer said, “That’s bullshit. The actor has had enough.” But the clouds were perfect! We did another take, and after it was over, Heath said, “Wow. That felt good.”
This is only a proof that Heath was a superb actor,not only for his acting's skills,but because he was very perfectionist in all he did.He knew very well how to put himself into his characters shoes,sweating for their skins,feeling as his their anguishes and sorrows.That's why this scene has so much straight and it's so believable;because he could understand perfectly what was happenning by Ennis mind in that very moment.A complex lot of feelings,sometimes contradictory among them,but always with LOVE in the horizon.
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Thanks loreen for sharing this. What a wonderful insight into this intense scene!
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This is what Ang Lee said about heath and that scene:
Ang Lee Remembers Heath Ledger
by Leilani Labong
What is your favorite memory of him?
It also happens to be one of my favorite shots of my career: his “barfing” scene in Brokeback, when he was hitting the wall with his fists. We were on the third take, his fists were bleeding, he’d literally spilled all his guts, and something in the background struck me as being perfect. I think it was the clouds. I wanted to do another take, but Heath was totally exhausted. My producer said, “That’s bullshit. The actor has had enough.” But the clouds were perfect! We did another take, and after it was over, Heath said, “Wow. That felt good.”
Thanks so much for this Loreen! Where did you find this interview w/ Ang? I'd like to see all of it!
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Here is the original article, atalley:
http://www.7x7.com/content/e/ang-lee-remembers-heath-ledger
The alley scene is described in the answer to the last question.
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To make it even sadder, Ennis knew that Jack would be at his parents place in Lightning Flat for several weeks. Jack had made sure Ennis knew it. Why didn't he get in his truck and get over there? At 19, out of a job, you bet I would have been over. Talk about being messed up.
Remember it took him a year to realize it wasn't his lunch making his guts hurt like that. Ennis may be a lot of things....sharpest knife in the drawer isn't one of them.
Wouldn't it have been fantastic if Jack and decided to drive back to Ennis and found him collapsed in the alleyway, and he could have taken him in his arms, and quietly rocked him and loved him forever.
And a fanfic is born. In the story, they drive off in different directions. In the movie, they take off in the same direction. I think dramatically, it worked better in the story b/c if they were going in the same direction, why wouldn't Jack give Ennis a ride? And clearly, these two have never gone in the same direction after that summer....
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This is what Ang Lee said about heath and that scene:
Ang Lee Remembers Heath Ledger
by Leilani Labong
“The actor has had enough.” But the clouds were perfect! We did another take, and after it was over, Heath said, “Wow. That felt good.”
OMG!!!that remark so perfectly fits Heath.... (:)
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. . . In the story, they drive off in different directions. In the movie, they take off in the same direction. I think dramatically, it worked better in the story b/c if they were going in the same direction, why wouldn't Jack give Ennis a ride? . . .
Have to say I think one ways works really well in written form, while the other works equally well in graphic form. Plus it has given us one the most memorable scenes in moviedom, Jack's rearview mirror sight of a slightly bowlegged Ennis walking down the street all alone with his flour sack of worldly goods over his shoulder. And of course the heartbreak Jack felt in seeing this.
The reintroduction of the "Ennis in the rearview mirror" effect (the first being in Aguirre's parking lot when Jack's shavin') is a pure stroke of movie genius to me. It would seem to be a pure Ang Lee motif as it is not included or described thus in the filmscripts. Jack's view of Ennis, the mirrored view, a man reverse - it would have been very difficult to put this effect into words (even for Annie), but Ang's genius was able to capture the idea of this image simply and profoundly, twice. MHO.
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Have to say I think one ways works really well in written form, while the other works equally well in graphic form. Plus it has given us one the most memorable scenes in moviedom, Jack's rearview mirror sight of a slightly bowlegged Ennis walking down the street all alone with his flour sack of worldly goods over his shoulder. And of course the heartbreak Jack felt in seeing this.
The reintroduction of the "Ennis in the rearview mirror" effect (the first being in Aguirre's parking lot when Jack's shavin') is a pure stroke of movie genius to me. It would seem to be a pure Ang Lee motif as it is not included or described thus in the filmscripts. Jack's view of Ennis, the mirrored view, a man reverse - it would have been very difficult to put this effect into words (even for Annie), but Ang's genius was able to capture the idea of this image simply and profoundly, twice. MHO.
Interesting points, guys. I never thought about the nuance of this scene. Since you mentioned it, I can see the genius, Jackster. I also see a difference in the book vs movie interpretation of Ennis.
The book describes Ennis as bigger than life, faster than average, strong and tough. The movie, through Heath's genius as well as Ang Lee's, portrarys Ennis as all that but also vulnerable and a little kid in a big man's body.
The rear view mirror bit is genius, I concur, because it shows "object is smaller than they are" and also captures the man in a little circle, detached from reality, as if Ennis is contained, caged, not free to do as he wishes, going down a long stretch of road, with no choices, no where to go.
I wonder about the choice of switching directions, instead of going opposite ways, watching Ennis coming at him from behind, why didn't Jack turn around and offer him a lift? It's an obvious question that must have crossed everyone's mind. Perhaps that's why Ang Lee introduced the switch, to trigger that question, to show the strain between the two cowboys, as alienated by the fist fight, to the point of no return. Coming down the mountain, Jack watched Ennis spitting in anger or whatever. They stooped silently while Joe counted the sheep and put them down. They were at their lowest point. The little exchange at the truck was also strained, but not enough apparently for Ang Lee. The rear-view mirror scene brought tears for me during the earliest viewings, and no doubt, my next viewing after so many months.
The drama of watching the tiny approaching Ennis getting smaller, I think, is more intense when the "lost opportunity" of not getting a lift is compounded with the "lost opportunity" of a life time.
Just my two bits. Thanks for the new ideas, Jackster, jedibarrister. May the force be with you. :t)
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Have to say I think one ways works really well in written form, while the other works equally well in graphic form. Plus it has given us one the most memorable scenes in moviedom, Jack's rearview mirror sight of a slightly bowlegged Ennis walking down the street all alone with his flour sack of worldly goods over his shoulder. And of course the heartbreak Jack felt in seeing this.
The reintroduction of the "Ennis in the rearview mirror" effect (the first being in Aguirre's parking lot when Jack's shavin') is a pure stroke of movie genius to me. It would seem to be a pure Ang Lee motif as it is not included or described thus in the filmscripts. Jack's view of Ennis, the mirrored view, a man reverse - it would have been very difficult to put this effect into words (even for Annie), but Ang's genius was able to capture the idea of this image simply and profoundly, twice. MHO.
I love the way you say this, jackster.
Some time ago, I chanced to read a poem that perfectly captures the moment:
http://www.alcoholicpoet.com/2006/03/rear-view-mirror.html
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The phantom of your last pause guards the entrance now.
And I look back from there. Every word a ghost.
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I love the way you say this, lance.
Some time ago, I chanced to read a poem that perfectly captures the moment:
http://www.alcoholicpoet.com/2006/03/rear-view-mirror.html
...
The phantom of your last pause guards the entrance now.
And I look back from there. Every word a ghost.
You quoted Jackster so perhaps you meant Jack not Lance. :)
I like the poem you quoted, and especially this bit:
Rolling in the darkness. The sound of truth the only song that ever plays all the way through. They look back only once. And that's if you are really lucky.
:( Even the lucky ones can have regret; in the blackness of memory, the black dog bites. Jack, at least, had the last look of Ennis in the doorway, and the stolen shirt in the closet. What did Ennis have?
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You quoted Jackster so perhaps you meant Jack not Lance. :)
I like the poem you quoted, and especially this bit:
:( Even the lucky ones can have regret; in the blackness of memory, the black dog bites. Jack, at least, had the last look of Ennis in the doorway, and the stolen shirt in the closet. What did Ennis have?
Thanks lance. :) I edited the last post. ;)
Ennis will always have the memory of their time in BBM. In some ways, they never left.
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Ennis will always have the memory of their time in BBM . . .
Thomas your linked poem was remarkably touching and seemed to hit directly at this relationship.
At the risk of going OT here, Ennis's loss of Jack, and Ennis' memory of BBM struck me in a different way just recently, some thoughts: Looking again at the scene in Lightning Flat where John Twist tells Ennis "then this spring, got another fella' gone come up here with him". At this point Ennis completely loses Jack, suddenly he is no longer the man in Jack's life. Not only has he lost Jack physically, but he's also lost the warm memory of their time together. He's been replaced by "another fella". Ennis truly is "nuthin', nowhere". You can see this devastation so well in the empty dead expression on his face: (thanks again Heath)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2FEnnisMa.jpg&hash=61c731cabe5a6dcb1176ad915c3a9695eddc99f8)
But Jack's Ma comes to the rescue here. Sensing the deep pain and loss that Ennis is feeling at this very moment, she offers, instructs really, Ennis to go upstairs "if you want" where Ennis discovers the shirts. By the discovery of the shirts Ennis gets Jack back, or at least the feeling of Jack. He discovers that it was himself that Jack held the light for for all those years, not "some other fella". John Twist's stories notwithstanding, it was Ennis' shirt in the closet carefully intertwined with Jack's. Among other things, this discovery allows Ennis to keep the memory of Brokeback (and Jack) in his mind, not have it beat down by the thought that he was abandoned by Jack.
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Right on, Jackster. Beautifully explained. :clap: ^f^
That scene with Ms Maxwell is always one of my favorite.
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That scene with Ms Maxwell is always one of my favorite.
me too bud. :^^)
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Damn, Jackster. That post sure was something else. Made me want to cry. Just beautiful and so true. Thank you. ^f^
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Me, too, Jackster. So beautiful and true. Isn't it fascinating how we can still find new insight into BBM after all this time. This in particular that you said, I had never really delved into those few moments when Ennis had to hear that Jack apparently had gotten some other fella. And yes, it was Mrs. Twist (I heart Mrs. Twist) who steered him back to the love he had with Jack.
kathy
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Beautifully out, jackster. I agree with you, especially in the role of Jack's mom.
Jack kept the shirts even after the falling out. Whatever his intentions, it would seem that he would cherish what we had with Ennis as something that was for keeps.
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I must add myself to the fellows who think you have done a beautiful analyse of Ennis psychology after Jack's death and the role that Ma Twist played to,somehow,join Jack's memories and Ennis reality.Thank you for that. :clap:
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. . . I had never really delved into those few moments when Ennis had to hear that Jack apparently had gotten some other fella. . .
kathy
Made me watch this scene in a whole new way. All those steps after hearing this bitter line from John Twist, - then going upstairs, exploring Jack's room and closet, all that time upstairs, Ennis is thinkin' he's been abandoned, left behind by Jack. IMO it took some courage to do that, we all know what that feeling is like, seems the urge would have been to get out, leave. Then he makes this "hidden" discovery and suddenly Jack, (or the memory of him) comes flooding back. Makes those initial steps even more painful somehow.
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The beauty of it all is that in spite of his feeling abandoned, he stayed true to his love for Jack and was "rewarded" -- in a way -- by the discovery of the shirts.
Perhaps all this is corollary to the scene in the alley, but in some ways, they have strong correspondences. In both scenes, there is that sense of abandonment. But the sense of abandonment is tempered by the knowledge that both of them carried that love away with them fairly intact.
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The beauty of it all is that in spite of his feeling abandoned, he stayed true to his love for Jack and was "rewarded" -- in a way -- by the discovery of the shirts.
Perhaps all this is corollary to the scene in the alley, but in some ways, they have strong correspondences. In both scenes, there is that sense of abandonment. But the sense of abandonment is tempered by the knowledge that both of them carried that love away with them fairly intact.
This may be off topic, but the scene that Jackster described is after Jack's death. The sense of abandonment is not only from "that rancher fellow" but also from death, the tire iron.
The alley scene was Ennis reacting to losing a friend from his own fears which kept him from reaching out to the person he most wanted to spend time with. He didn't even know what it was until much later.
The kitchen scene was Ennis reaching out to Jack's folks, hoping to find something to hold on to, despite losing Jack. The old duck stud typically twisted his knife into Ennis about "that rancher neighbour", but Jack's Ma pointed the way out for Ennis...to Jack's room, which she kept like when he was a boy. She understood his reasons for being there, and she responded with love and sharing. She knew about those shirts, and she was prepared for Ennis taking them with him. She reached for the paper sag almost right the way when Ennis showed up down stairs with the shirt. And she gave him a knowing smile.
The beauty of Brokeback Mountain is the love that holds on, over twenty years, over bigotry, over circumstances beyond their control, over death. It's not only Ennis' love or Jack's love. It is love that permeate the movie in all the characters, from Junior to Cassie to Jack's Ma...the women who loved Ennis through all his faults and mistakes.
Without Jack's Ma, the movie would be very different...like the short story, with Ennis wasting away in the lonely trailer p!ssing in the sink and dreaming the days away.
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Beautifully said, lance. And yes, I think the ending would have been much more bleak without the caring touch of Jack's mom.
OK. I should remember that the main topic here is the alley scene! :)
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Ennis outburst of emotions: crying, screaming, punching, stomach ... could represent 5 things going on all at once: 1) Jack: unresolved physical fight, unresolved relationship, not seeing him anymore, not even a good bye kiss and hug...2) Alma: he cheated on her and still he would marry her with the secret inside who is he and who is in love 3) not getting paid for a month when money is tight and a wedding to pay 4) he is frustrated to himself, doubts who he is, doubts about marriage 5) Society: death if they found he is gay which is the MDQ of the story and that hunt Ennis since 9 years old...So it is so appropriate Ennis breaking down to release all these emotios like exploding volcano ...