Yes, i believe in the opposites attract thing too.
At first I thought they would have had a sweet life but lately I've been thinking I wasn't so sure. I think Ennis was just too uncomfortable with it and terrible memories. I had thought he was sort of fine the way things were b.c. at least it was something, but when he said he couldn't stand it anymore...I dunno. I think he would have kept it the same way with Jack but maybe his feelings would open more??? got to think about this one.....
Opposites do attract, I agree , but this is Ennis Del Mar scarred and scared with many inner conflicts about who he is, Would Jack fear that Ennis would bolt? Perhaps Ennis would be thinking on the line of being forced into something he was'nt ready for. Jack would have to convince Ennis somehow that no one was going to come kicking their door down in the middle of the night, that they were not Earl and Ray. I'd wish him luck doing that, but they did loved each other. Perhaps in time Ennis would stop wringing his hands and get on with it, but Jack would have to have the patience of Job in my opinion to make this work.He'd waited 20 years and would have to had accomplished a miracle getting Ennis to agree to this so maybe there's hope after all.
Hopefully the communication would improve, so that that Jack would not have to assume so much about what Ennis is thinking at times. Getting Ennis out of Riverton should be a priority, Maybe Texas?And they did work well together, Flowerchild, yes indeed. A perfect match they were, so perhaps as in any relationship, or marriage love and alot of hard work will sustain it. They were certainly deserving of it. My opinion.
Yes, I agree, they went through so much together and surely being together, whatever the problems, would have been better than being apart.
Once he got over that hump the rest is dependent on how bad they want it.
Realistically they're 39 now - not the best of times to start up something which would have been massively easier when they were 23
They were both milestones, jolts of recognition. But whereas after Jack died, he realized he loved him, I think at the time of the reunion, he realized he was still drawn to Jack, still needed him. But did not perhaps understand yet that this was genuine love.
Though I have to wonder, Earl and Rich aside, if Ennis weren't married with children at the time of the reunion, might he have been somewhat more inclined to take some kind of a chance with Jack?
Don't know, just rambling.
I'm not sure - tend to think Alma and the girls were a convenient excuse but if they hadn't existed he'd have found something else, maybe the attitudes of people around him. Earl and Rich were there in the back of his mind - that's how he saw any attempt at achieving a sweet life with Jack ending up and nothing could make him think any differently.
In my earliest viewings of the film the one thing I didn't like was that Jack was willing to leave Bobby. However that feeling was short lived. I believe what pushed him to seek out Ennis again was the scene after Bobby was first born where he was treated like a piece of crap by his in-laws. I don't blame him for wanting to escape that life considering LD was basically telling him to get lost. The Thanksgiving scene shows that Jack was trying to teach his son to respect his mother with the whole tv incident- yes it turned into a power play with LD but at first he was doing it to support Lureen. In the SS it says that he was worried about Bobby's learning disablility while Lureen pretended it away- she has the money and called the shots. Jack could have left his son at anytime if the money was that enticing to him- yet he stayed- he could have taken the money and run- no looking back, no responsibility but to me, none of that mattered without Ennis. For someone who "Didn't want none a either kind" he stayed.
The whole thing about Ennis bringing up the child support at that late stage always mystified me- He had child support payments since 1975 and yet still met Jack and I think it's safe to assume gave up jobs etc in all of those years. So why all of the sudden? I have no doubt Ennis loved his girls and did want to do right by them but at that particular point it just seemed like an excuse, IMO
WW- I had the same feeling about the I did once on my last viewing of that scene. That he was perhaps no longer offering that sweet life. I think that's what prompted Ennis to finally get in his face because Jack is implying that it's in the past.
Sometimes it is just easier to stick with what you know that to strike out into the unknown. Maybe that's how Ennis felt. He wasn't happy with things the way they were, but at least he knew his place in that world. Striking out with Jack was an unknown -- where would they wind up; how would they be together all the time; what would society's reaction be? etc.
Opposites do attract, which they were, but - they also have to have something in common - which they did, would they have been able to be together - I think so, but I also think that Ennis would have had to move beyond his fears - also, Jack was a lot more outgoing than Ennis - I think he'd have to learn to enjoy the "silence" once in awhile - they would surely have had several "bumps" in the road - hopefully they'd be able to work them out - after all - they were together for nearly twenty so there must have been more there than just the sex. Just my opinion.
the sweet life is something that i really want for both of them if only jack hadn't died. if only jack had showed up at the end of the movie just when ennis say 'jack, i swear...' and jack would've said, 'swear what?' or something equally sarcastic. then they would have kissed and make up and they would ride off into the sunset to pursue the sweet life that they are after but then, unfortunately, jack died and all my dreams about them being together at the end were flusjed down the toilet. if it were up to me, it would have been possible for them to be together seeing that when they are together, that's the only time ennis truly opens up. that's when they are themselves...when they are with their family, its like they are both concealing a part of themselves. with jack, ennis can truly let go all his worries and let jack lead the way...they would be equals...lovers...partners
Ennis had a way of bringing Jack once in a while back to reality, Jack had a big ego, Ennis had a way of bringing him down to earth. Ennis had a strong work ethic, untangling the sheep, "we had to stick with it Jack." So if they did have c & c operation, Ennis would have been the backbone, if Jack felt a little overwhelmed Ennis would have given the strength to keep going.
They were so perfectly match, it is painful to watch what they went through.
I think it would have been easier if Ennis would not have married. IO think it was this that set things in motion so as to be irreversible.
Exactly. And Annie lays this out in one of the very earliest scenes before there's much going on between the boys. Ennis ALREADY had a plan, one that didn't involve Jack. So Jack was working uphill from the start and his being able to "win over" Ennis during the summer is even more remarkable. It still amazes me how she wove this incredibly twisted tale with such skill.
I had wondered if up on Brokeback in 63, Jack already had a vision of a shared life together.
lauren, so you do think it was probable that Ennis would have inevitably given in had Jack lived?
And since he was a natural optimist he decided to go back and see if there was any hope of rekindling what they'd had - LD had evidently already made it clear that he would pay Jack off if he'd go away, so money wouldn't be much of a problem.
Interesting question, seems so basic it must have been discussed somewhere else but I don't know where. The SS makes it pretty clear in the motel scene when Ennis realizes he "needed" Jack, but it doesn't seem very clear in either SS or film when Jack makes his revelation regarding his idea of the Sweet Life. If Jack had the idea in '63 why did he wait four years (the punch?) or as you say it was just too unproven at that point. Did he hatch the plan while driving up to the Riverton reunion? But at that point he didn't know that Ennis was going have such a "warm" reception for him even though he redlined it - did he come up with this idea quickly in the motel (in the SS) or driving up to the mountains (in the film). I Wonder. . . .
Jack being Jack, I think he'd have said something or hinted, if not while they were up on the mountain, then after they came down and before they separated in Signal.
I think it came together in his mind once he realised that the Newsomes were never going to accept him, and that he was just a gofer in the short term and the guy who'd provided the Newsome heir, but unimportant in the eyes of LD, his wife and Lureen. Once again, as he'd been in his own family, Jack was the outsider who couldn't feel a sense of being loved and wanted, so he thought back to the time when he did, and realised that it was up on Brokeback with Ennis.
And since he was a natural optimist he fdecided to go back and see if there was any hope of rekindling what they'd had - LD had evidently already made it clear that he would pay Jack off if he'd go away, so money wouldn't be much of a problem. I think finding Ennis with two children must have been a bit of a shock, spcially after the passionate kiss that they'd just shared.
it's a possiblility. if ennis hadn't love jack so much, he wouldn't have wanted to keep their relationship going even after so many years, just waiting for the next time they would meet again. its a terrible way to love someone....always wondering how the other is but never getting to see them. i wish ennis would get over his discomfort about being gay earlier but i guess its already too late...
So, if I understand your timeline here, you think he had some ideas of the Sweet Life in, say late '66 or early '67 (the 12 months before the reunion) and that this may be one reason that spurred him on to send a postcard? I think that sounds pretty good. If was thinkin' those thoughts he REALLY must have happy with the reception he got!
I think it would work because they are not really in opposition to one another; rather, then are more complementary. They seem to cover each other's weaknesses, and with both of them combined, I think they are stronger.
I think a lot of good marriages are based on complementarity, and not similarity, no?
Most good marriages, gay, straight or bi, are usually long lasting and enduring when both partners personalities compliment each other. Jack had a way of bringing Ennis out of his shell as no other person could. Remember the morning after, when they were being spied on, Ennis was as giddy as a school girl and uninhibited with Jack and playfully wrestled with him and planted a big kiss right on him. Jack would have been powerful good for him had he chosen to share his life with him.
Great post from all you here.
I can picture their place in my mind, how bout you? Since most think this would work , I'd like to explore this sweet life a little more though, What would each one 's *job* be in this Marriage/operation/partnership/ranch. Jack's dream... I see Jack keepin the books in a log cabin home built by them both. Can't picture Ennis Del Mar picking out curtains though. LOL ;D ;D &*&. Paint us a picture in your own words folks , of what your idea of an *everyday* life on Jack and Ennis's ranch ....Just speculation so please be creative and nice . This is Jack and Ennis place.!!or maybe post a picture showing what your idea of their place is like ....inside and out...... Can I ask this? I'm fascinated and intrigued by this. Have been since Jack suggested it . Dear Ennis could'nt realize it but...We can. Any takers?
I can picture their place in my mind, how bout you? Paint us a picture in your own words folks, of what your idea of an *everyday* life on Jack and Ennis's ranch .... I'm fascinated and intrigued by this . . . Any takers?
This is where Jack would greatly be helped by the only other person in Ennis's life that he trusts and loves: Alma Jr. and Jenny. Alma Jr. knew about her father and Jack. both his daughers were old enough to remember meeting Jack in the divorce scene and as grown women looking back had to figure this whole thing out.
Would their cupboards contain their fav food , BEANS? :cr) :c)please don't get me started.
Tough question - Where are the shirts?
For some reason, I don't think Jack would have shown them to Ennis -- at least not at that time. I think he would have found a place to hide them, but would have kept them safe and visited them when he had the need to do so. Maybe years down the road, if Ennis ever opened up and admitted to Jack how he felt about him, Jack may have shared the shirts, knkowing then that Ennis would prize them, also.
Another tough question, this maybe should be it's own thread:
If Jack had lived and they had been able to come together in The Sweet Life,
How would Jack tell Ennis about the shirts?
What would he say?
What would be his explanation?
Any ideas?
After all these heads on walls and displays of assorted memorabilia, I begin to think that the sweet life would need to involve a decorator, and possibly a de-clutterer. Couldn't they be a bit more minimalist?
Oh, and if Jack's cooking, would it be quiche?
... and after.
I think when he got married, Ennis thought he would be having the sweet life with Alma. It wasn't until later when reality entered . . . .
Although Jack often goes out among the people, jh never seems happy. In every scene where he is with Lureen, we get a peek at his very solemn, sad face. I'm not sure Jack is any more social than Ennis, but as you say, WW, he is a much better dissembler. He can convince others he is one of the boys -- happy with his life, son, life.
I had wondered if up on Brokeback in 63, Jack already had a vision of a shared life together.
I think that it porbably was not yet well formed in him.
At that point in time, I think both of them resigned themselves to this being a one-shot thing, as Ennis already had othwer plans. It seemed to me that only after 4 years of separation that Jack realized that he wanted a life with Ennis, and by that time, things had gone too far in the other direction, as far as Alma and Lureen are concerned...
The realization of the sweet life came for Jack earlier imo, the next summer, because he did return to Aguirre the next summer. But Ennis didn't show up. Maybe Jack thought at that point that Ennis didn't love him, and he move to Texas. What Jack didn't know was the child trauma of Ennis, what he didn't know is that he was deeply loved by Ennis, and this is the tragedy of BBM. If Jack had known that, he would have contact Ennis earlier.
Very good points. One wonders when Ennis tells Jack during that four year reunion (in the short story) about the stomach cramps he'd had at the end of their summer on Brokeback and says:
"Took me about a year to figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights." just what he thought they could have done if he'd chosen differently. Because by the time of the reunion, he has a wife and two kids which is presumably why he says "Too late then by a long, long while." But had he not let Jack out of his sights, what then? Ennis shows all through the story that he doesn't believe two men can live together. But in that one moment, there's almost a sense that somewhere deep inside he had enough hope, enough strength of affection and attachment, to imagine that there might have been something for them if they'd taken the chance.
Of course, it's possible that it's one of those things that is easy to say in hindsight but he never would have been able to carry through if the chance arose. Still, it makes me wonder...
As to Jack being social and needing other people, I'm not so sure. He was certainly capable of being social but I think a lot of that was an effort to find something/someone to hold onto or belong to or to do what he had to do to fit in and make his way in the world. I tend to think that he might have been just as happy as Ennis to be out in the middle of nowhere on their own for the most part. Though I agree that a few friends would be necessary. I think even Ennis would need to interact with someone else, just because that much isolation wouldn't be good for anyone. Sigh, I would love to have been their friend if they were my neighbors...
I'm sorry, Forever, I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean that Jack was happy "getting together every once in a while out in the middle of nowhere." Certainly not. As you said, that was his biggest frustration in life - that Ennis couldn't bring himself to take the same chance as Earl and Rich and make that "Sweet life" a reality.
What I meant was that I think Jack could have been happy with the very sweet life he proposed to Ennis - a little cow and calf operation, something like that. That he didn't need to be in a metropolitan area or surrounded by a lot of other people to be happy. I think that he had it in him to be social but I believe, based on what we saw of him in the movie, that he didn't have a big need to be. I think a quiet life with Ennis would have suited him just fine. And of course as I said, I think even Ennis would have needed a few friends and neighbors. We all do. Even the people who are introverts by nature. Everyone wants to feel like he/she belongs somewhere. And no one wants to be completely isolated. Had Ennis taken a chance and agreed to try for that life with Jack, I think they both could have been content with the kind of life that a profession like that would have dictated.
Sorry for the confusion!
You're welcome Lance! Impressive insight, never thought to become a writer? If only English was my mother language I could compete with you! But in that case I will not because I agree with what you just wrote! And I'm very glad that you're so sweet with my Jack! Yes I confess I am Jack's girl, but I do love Ennis too! ;)
These great posts pose some intriguing possibilities . . . and seemingly endless questions . . .
'Ennis del Mar,' he used a say, `I'm goin a bring him up here one a these days and we'll lick this damn ranch into shape.' He had some half baked idea the two a you was goin a move up here, build a log cabin, and help me run this ranch and bring it up.
I tend to agree with you CH, that this was probably well into the relationship with Ennis when Jack mentioned this to Ma an' Pa. If Jack came up to Wyoming every year to "fish" or sum other four-letter activities with Ennis, then went to visit Ma an' Pa, this would seem like a logical extension of his visit north - "Yeah, I'm goin' fishin' with Ennis and will be over to see you when we come down from the mountains".
"I know where Brokeback Mountain is" his Pa said to Ennis - per AP they never went back to Brokeback, always headed to other locations. So how did Pa happen to focus on this? It must simply be because Jack ask to have the ashes go there, as this would not have been one of the spots for their fishin' trips. So it doesn't seem like it would have come up, of course Jack as a young man had probably mentioned it after his first ('62) and then second ('63) summer up there when we know he afterwards headed over to help his daddy. Does seem a little remarkable that Pa would have recalled this location so many years later.
On the question of when, or if, Jack ever posed the question to Ennis 'bout settin' up something at Lightin' Flat - seems like it could go two ways:
"Listen. I'm thinkin, tell you what, if you and me had a little ranch together, little cow and calf operation, your horses, it'd be some sweet life. Like I said, I'm gettin out a rodeo. . . . . I got it figured, got this plan Ennis, how we can do it, you and me. Lureen's old man, you bet he'd give me a bunch if I'd get lost. Already more or less said it_"
This was 1967, seems to me that Jack was already thinkin' Lightin' Flat here (it was already clear to him he needed an alternative to Childress), - easin' his folks out and settin' something up where he had an "in", knew the lay of the land, and which was "way out in the middle a' nowhere". 'Course Ennis put the kibosh on this even before Jack could elaborate his scheme. But following this thinking, Jack would have not necessarily discussed it in any more detail with Ennis, thinking he could sell Ennis on it in time. But he could have laid out some vague schemes to Ma an' Pa' over the years just to gauge the old man's reaction to having them come help him (and in Jack's thinking eventually push them out of the picture). This would have been a pretty attractive fantasy for Jack I'd guess, one that he could focus on for years as we all do. One that has both Ennis and OMT seeing things Jack's way and turning into the Sweet Life for Jack and Ennis.
Alternatively he might have presented the idea to Ennis on several occasions, in different ways. But of course in the Final Argument in response to Ennis' question "You got a better idea? Jack responds "I did once". This would make me think that he never breached the subject with Ennis again. Which of course is one of the frustrating tragedies of the epic, why the f*** not? If Jack is such a good salesman why didn't he keep trying to subtly convince Ennis there was a way to do this? I personally think Ennis might of been persuaded to do the Lighting Flat move if Jack had laid out a "safe-house" type scheme for Ennis, one where Ennis could keep up the "straight-man" front but still be able to work (and play) with Jack "out in the middle of nowhere" under the pretext of "bringing up" the old Twist Ranch once again. Maybe Jack could have even taken Ennis over there to see the lay of the land an' all. But, Ennis's homophobia is such he's unable to take even this little step in understanding or recognizing his own desires and possibilities, and Jack seems afraid or unable to push him. I guess this is part of the point AP is trying to make, Ennis was so frozen by his fear, unable to move forward, unable to recognize himself in the mirror. At least until he goes into, and then comes out of, Jack's closet at Lightin' Flat (IMHO).
Hey CH hope you’re doin’ well –
Some Wyoming geography and other stuff. ‘Bout all we know of the location of the fictional BBM I think is laid-out here in the SS when Ennis goes lookin’ for a postcard at Higgins gift shop:
"Scene a Brokeback Mountain." (Ennis)
"Over in Fremont County?" (Linda)
"No, north a here." (Ennis)
So, north of Fremont County would be either Hot Springs County (unlikely I think, too flat) or Park County or Big Horn County. A good spot to see where these are located and to compare their geography is:
http://geology.com/state-map/wyoming.shtml (http://geology.com/state-map/wyoming.shtml)
Lighting Flat is in Campbell County over in eastern WY and up at the north end of it near the Montana border. Quite a ways from either Park or Big Horn counties. Now, OMT could have been familiar with the territory over there to the west, but he doesn’t seem like the kind who would be reaching out to learn about places that are outside of his world (IMO). So I personally think his reference here a more metaphorical one, equating Brokeback Mountain with a state of debauchery that he felt Jack engaged in there. That seems to me a logical explanation as to why he may have said what he did in the way that he did (e.g. "I know what sin is"). Resentful that Jack wanted his ashes to go there (with it’s evil overtones) rather than the more simple and morally clean family plot. Whata’ you think?
But, you really threw sumthin’ out here that I NEVER thought of and I guess that I need a little explanation for – “his (probably) gay uncle Harold” - In the immortal word of Ennis Del Mar, - huh? What’s the back-story here? I’m dying to know –
(Whoops, forgot about the boy's stop in DuBois (western Fremont County) on the way to Signal at the end of summer '63, this would indicate to me that BBM was likely up in Park County WY, but 'course this ain't definitive)
My dear LC and CH:
Actually the back-story to the Sweet-Life is:
OMT knew about BBM and all it entails and learned about it from Joe Aguirre who he met once when Ma Twist’s brother, Harold, stopped by in '52 and Aguirre was ridin’ shotgun with him. That’s how Jack got a job up there in ’62, Harold and Joe went way back and had been real good buddies during the war. Harold (a confirmed bachelor) came back and got the Forman’s job running an operation up in Worland. Kept in touch with Joe but not close, when his hand KC got married an’ brother Ennis had to leave the bunkhouse, Harold sent ‘em over to Signal thinkin’ he might get a summer job there with Joe.
Harold was always tryin’ to get his dumbass brother in law John to give up ranchin’, old John couldn’t raise a tent pole since he got hit in the head fallin’ off that bull. If OMT was to leave Harold was gonna’ take over the Lightning Flat operation and really build it up. He knew Jack was strong (if a bit a lazy) and could be depended on to help his Uncle Harry (as he called ‘em). Uncle Harry had shared this idea with young Jack once and the kid’s eye’s about popped. He’d not got along with his dad for years, (he was crazy since that fall) but the idea of having his Uncle there and living and working with him sounded like some sweet life. Unfortunately, after Uncle Harry took sick in ’63 he never fully recovered and couldn’t really work hard anymore, but with two young studs to help run the place under his management it oughtta’ work just fine . . . .
Yes, it would be a real Sweet Life, huh?
"s;"
IMHO:
Let's lay off Jack, we can't blame Jack because he married into money. I'm sure his son would have not missed a meal, to assume Jack didn't care about his son, is kind of unfair, Jack was more real about the situation then Ennis was.
And for goodness sake Riverton, WY. is not the only place in the whole of the US, Ennis could find work, and to wait until his child support was paid off to move on with life is kind of silly. I sure with Jack, no other dependents would have been produced.
Alma went on with her life, Ennis never did, what does that say. At every stage of this love affair Ennis found excuses, but never came up with any solutions. Like he told Jack at the final meeting, "Do you have a better idea?" Ennis never had a better idea, only excuse.