Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: ethan on Jul 01, 2007, 08:39 PM
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As I was editing the video for 40th Anniversary of Ennis and Jack's reunion, this particular line caught my attention.
Ennis: ..you got your wife and baby down in Taxas, I got my life in Riverton.
Jack: Is that so? You and Alma, that's a life?
Given Ennis who is a man of a few words, how much does Jack know about Ennis and Alma's life? How much do you think Ennis tell Jack about his life with Alma that prompted Jack to ask if Ennis and Alma have a life?
What was Jack implying? Did Jack just assume that Ennis's true love was him, not Alma?
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Good question - I don’t think Ennis told him much, didn’t have to. IMO Jack’s view was based on what he saw in the two minutes he was there, - a small, sparsely appointed apartment over a Laundromat, and a beat up old pickup. All in the style of the apt. occupied by Ralph & Alice in the old Honeymooners TV series. Jack’s material world had “expanded” considerably since he married – as evidenced by his late model pickup. Since it didn’t appear that Ennis had achieved much else other than Alma (an’ the girls), and the boys had just had some pretty satisfying, ahem, physical relations (per the SS), Jack no doubt wondered if Alma alone was enough for Ennis. (Jack sure didn’t have the same devotion to his son as Ennis did his girls.) I think he felt Ennis was going nowhere and that He and Ennis could actually achieve something and have each other.
Interesting that all those years later Ennis turns it around - "It's 'cause of you I'm like this, I'm nuthin', I'm nowhere" :s)
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I don't believe Ennis shared too many details of his life with Alma to Jack. I also believe Jack saw what he saw and did his own math. From Jack's perspective Ennis was merely existing and going through the motions of a life expected of him. I do admire Ennis for not allowing Jack to label Alma as the sole reason they could not be together.
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Good question - I don’t think Ennis told him much, didn’t have to.
Thanks, jackster for your insights. I also feel the same that Ennis didn't tell much. That is why I was pondering with the question asked by Jack.
IMO Jack’s view was based on what he saw in the two minutes he was there, - a small, sparsely appointed apartment over a Laundromat, and a beat up old pickup.
Perhaps I am reading too much. I am not sure if Jack's view is based on Ennis's materialistic[/b] world. To me, the term "life" would be a place where ones could live happily (of course, it is often accompanied by one's materialistic world) as Jack called something "sweet life." Jack probably sensed that Ennis and Alma are not happy together. I am not even sure if Jack was implying Ennis's marriage with Alma was just a cover-up.
Interesting that all those years later Ennis turns it around - "It's 'cause of you I'm like this, I'm nuthin', I'm nowhere" :s)
It is indeed interesting. Ennis told Jack - "Shut up about Alma, it ain't her fault." Jack proposed to him a sweet life which he rejected.
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It is indeed interesting. Ennis told Jack - "Shut up about Alma, it ain't her fault." Jack proposed to him a sweet life which he rejected.
It's a shame. Apparently Ennis didn't believe that sweet life couldn't be achieved under their current circumstances.
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To me, the term "life" would be a place where one could live happily (of course, it is often accompanied by one's materialistic world) as Jack called something "sweet life." . . . I am not even sure if Jack was implying Ennis's marriage with Alma was just a cover-up.
I think you right Ethan, this is what I was trying to say - the "Sweet Life" Jack wanted (and thought they could achieve together) was all three - materialistically, emotionally, and physically rewarding. That's what made it so damn sweet IMHO. And he didn't see a life with Alma measuring up to that dreamy possibility.
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all three - materialistically, emotionally, and physically rewarding. That's what made it so damn sweet IMHO. And he didn't see a life with Alma measuring up to that dreamy possibility.
I think you termed it so well with the three components. O0 Jack could see the materialistic part of Ennis's life without Ennis telling. How did he know about Ennis's relationship with Alma for not being (well at least in Jack's judgment) satisfying?
Apparently, Ennis's view on "life" is different from Jack's as evidenced by his reply in defense of Alma. His view is to have "his life" while on fishing trips with Jack in the middle of nowhere. :\'(
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I think in the reunioin scene Jack stepped out of his truck, took one look around and decided that the Ennis he came to know and love would not settle for a cramped, small apartment over a noisy laundry and surrounded by concrete could not be his country cowboy's idea of a life. This had to be Alma's idea. Ennis's home before this , way out in the country side with his horses and potenially a ranch of his own was more Ennis. It was she who talked him into leaving I think Jack realized this early. My feeling is that Jack saw Ennis in a stifling situation with Alma. It was a *life* yeah, but what kind of life? Where the quality of that life with her? Ennis, after the divorce ended up back out in the middle of nowhere again where he felt closer to his roots. Jack felt he could offer Ennis so much more something along the lines of a much sweeter life. The three aspects mentioned by Jackster above would make Ennis whole as a person again. This could only happen for him with Jack.
On BBM Jack, even back then , had his own dreams of owning his own spread someday, perhaps this dream grew to include Ennis by the time they fell in love . He understood that ranch work and animals were Ennis's two real loves ( other than his girls) and he was'nt anywhere near having a *satisfying* life in this aspect alone.
" You and Alma, that's a life?" ,I feel he means you , Ennis, the man who came into himself with Jack on BBM, feels true love for Jack ,not Alma a man who makes love to a woman, when he knows damn well he would prefer it be Jack. Can't possibly be happy in a marriage where he is not free to let his true self shine through without having to pretend all the time. Where fantasy and pretense compensate for reality. To Jack, this no life, only an existence. He was ready to leave his own *existence* had Ennis said yes to his proposal. He understood the circumstances though living on a much higher financial level, they reap the same results. In the end it was still only their love for each other that survived everything. Jack was right all along. Sadly Ennis found out too late. My opinion.
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I don't believe Ennis shared too many details of his life with Alma to Jack. I also believe Jack saw what he saw and did his own math. From Jack's perspective Ennis was merely existing and going through the motions of a life expected of him. I do admire Ennis for not allowing Jack to label Alma as the sole reason they could not be together.
I feel the same way. It looked to me that he asessed the situation by simply knowing what he knew about Ennis.
I also can't help thinking that Jack said these words out of bitterness. We can't blame him too much, either.
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. . . Jack stepped out of his truck, took one look around and decided that the Ennis he came to know and love would not settle for a cramped, small apartment over a noisy laundry and surrounded by concrete this could not be his country cowboy's idea of a life. This had to be Alma's idea. . . .
Great observation here ain't, you're so right - this world Jack saw was Alma's not Ennis's. That ain't no life for Ennis . . . Makes that jumping off the cliff shot that follows much clearer as an expression of freedom.
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How did he (Jack) know about Ennis's relationship with Alma not being satisfying?
Maybe because Jack's physical and emotional relationship with Lureen was unsatisfying he made the assumption the same was true for Ennis and Alma. 'Course in the SS Ennis is quoted as sayin' "I like doin' it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin' like this." So Ennis got some satisfaction, but not like with Jack. Maybe Jack just put all these bits and pieces together in his mind to construct a view of Ennis's "sour life" and decided he could do better, a "sweet life" with Jack.
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" You and Alma, that's a life?" ,I feel he means you , Ennis, the man who came into himself with Jack on BBM, feels true love for Jack ,not Alma a man who makes love to a woman, when he knows damn well he would prefer it be Jack. Can't possibly be happy in a marriage where he is not free to let his true self shine through without having to pretend all the time. Where fantasy and pretense compensate for reality. To Jack, this no life, only an existence. He was ready to leave his own *existence* had Ennis said yes to his proposal. He understood the circumstances though living on a much higher financial level, they reap the same results. In the end it was still only their love for each other that survived everything. Jack was right all along. Sadly Ennis found out too late. My opinion.
aintfoolin, well said. Thank you. It is the existence without a true meaning that Jack was questioning. As Jackster said, great observation.
Maybe because Jack's physical and emotional relationship with Lureen was unsatisfying he made the assumption the same was true for Ennis and Alma. 'Course in the SS Ennis is quoted as sayin' "I like doin' it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin' like this." So Ennis got some satisfaction, but not like with Jack. Maybe Jack just put all these bits and pieces together in his mind to construct a view of Ennis's "sour life" and decided he could do better, a "sweet life" with Jack.
Another great observation from SS. Thanks!
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Good question - I don’t think Ennis told him much, didn’t have to. IMO Jack’s view was based on what he saw in the two minutes he was there, - a small, sparsely appointed apartment over a Laundromat, and a beat up old pickup. All in the style of the apt. occupied by Ralph & Alice in the old Honeymooners TV series. Jack’s material world had “expanded” considerably since he married – as evidenced by his late model pickup. Since it didn’t appear that Ennis had achieved much else other than Alma (an’ the girls), and the boys had just had some pretty satisfying, ahem, physical relations (per the SS), Jack no doubt wondered if Alma alone was enough for Ennis. Ennis did ([bs]Jack ure didn’t have the same devotion to his son as his girls.) I think he felt Ennis was going nowhere and th[/b]at He and Ennis could actually achieve something and have each other.
I agree with everything you say here, jackster, except the part about Jack not caring as much for his son as Ennis did for his daughters. Maybe this topic is OT in this thread, but, here goes anyway. I think Jack cared a good deal about Bobby. He was the one who was concerned about his learning problem ( looking for coat scene in movie with Lureen) and in the SS when talking with Ennis. He also had him on the combine and was teaching him to drive it. He seemed to be having fun with Bobby and Bobby seemed to be enjoying himself, too. I think, too, part of the reason Jack stayed with Lureen as long as he did was for Bobby's sake. So, I don't think Jack was an "absent" father. Ennis, while he talks about his girls and is faithful with his childsupport payments, doesn't go too far past the minimum when it comes to spending time with them. In the ss, after he storms out of Alma's kitchen after Thanksgiving dinner, it states that he didn't see his girls for quite awhile. He was willing to wait until they grew up and realized Alma was not 100% in the right where Ennis was concerned. So, I don't think Ennis was all that "present" a father, either. When the girls where little, maybe, but as they were growing???? I'm not sure. I think Jack made assumptions about Ennis's life with Alma, but maybe Ennis's reluctance to talk about his life caused Jack to assume Ennis was more dissatisfied than he actually was. Then again, maybe Ennis, seeing that he was not as successful as Jack, had to pretend something was good in his life, so resented it when Jack made the comment that his life with Alma wasn't worth anything -- wasn't living. Do we need a thread on this topic, or is it already covered somewhere?
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The fathers, the kids and "A Life?"
You’re right lamusica maybe this should be it’s own thread.
Yeah, I go back and forth on this fatherly stuff, like a number of issues there’s somewhat contradictory stuff in the movie vs. SS. Sometimes I think your right, Jack’s every bit as good a father as Ennis, but then when I see Jack’s really quick jump to split from Lureen to the “sweet life” it makes me wonder maybe he’s not thinkin’ so much about little eight month old Bobby back in Texas. However, as you say later he is concerned about Bobby’s learning problem, apparently more than Lureen. Ennis shows up for T-Giving dinner with the girls (and Monroe – that can’t be much fun) yet he doesn’t see them for long time then? Hard for me to make heads or tails of the whole “fatherly” situation.
Long way of sayin’ you may be right. I guess for this “That’s A Life?” thread in particular I was thinking of right then, at the reunion campfire in '67, when all the kids were small, babies even. It seemed Jack’s eagerness to get out didn’t say much for his paternal instincts. But Ennis says (from the SS in '67) “Jack, I built a life up in them years. Love my little girls.”
It seemed a different perspective on their family obligation at that point in time. But I feel as you that maybe that changed over time and even reversed itself.
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You're right, jackster. As of '67, Ennis seemed the best parent. Lureen had her mother and father to help her with Bobby. I doubt if Jack did any hands-on parenting. Whereas, Ennis was the only one around to help Alma. She mentions a sister in the grocery scene, but doesn't seem to be on the scene helping Alma out. So, Ennis was sort of pushed into helping with diapers, colds, etc. At that point, he certainly seems to be more involved with his kids.
Well, neither guy had any really good fatherly example, did he? They just played it out as it came, seems to me.
I question, too, how good a mother Lureen was when she seems to be so distant when Jack mentions talking with Bobby's teachers. She doesn't seem to aware of anything but the business. Alma, on the other hand, is always with the kids except when at work.. Folks do what they have to do to make a living. The question still remains, as Jack put it: Did Ennis and Alma have a life? (I think they did. While not one I would want, it was at least as good as what most folks get.)
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Was Jack's objection specifically directed at Alma, or was he more questioning Ennis's motives of trying to build a life with Alma?
Ennis seemed to have realized this when he insisted that it wasn't Alma's fault. I guess the implication is that it was his (Ennis's) fault.
But was Jack really meant the remark against Alma? I suspect that his remark questioned Ennis's sincerity and love for Alma than anything else.
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Very good questions, tpe.
IMO, given how much Jack understands his relationship with Ennis, it is more a question on Ennis's motives. SS has more details on the motel scene, especially from Ennis. He said something:
"Four years, I about give up on you. I figured you was sore about that punch."
"Took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long, long while."
It does appear that it is Ennis's fault.
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"Four years, I about give up on you. I figured you was sore about that punch."
"Took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long, long while."
This is, IMO, the way Ennis uses to say to Jack that he loves him and would have liked that Jack stay close to him.
So when, later Jack asks "You and Alma it's a life", this is a kind of answer to Ennis, questionning about how much was Ennis able to move towards Jack, implying that Ennis was playing a part in his life with Alma, and being unhappy. Ennis' aswer is clear, he knows that he's playing a part with Alma (even if I think he likes her), and that he's not happy. But it is also clear that he won't make a step towards Jack... :\'(
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A lot in life can be sort of pretending, no? I guess Ennis did seem to WANT to play the part with Alma -- a dutiful husband and a good father. The fact that Ennis probably didn't love Alma (at least in the way he loved Jack) did not seem to matter to him. And it would seem that Jack was questioning this, no?
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Both Ennis and Jack played parts with their wives.
Ennis was everything for Jack.
Jack wasn't evrything for Ennis, there were also his daughters and his fear of himself (and of the others).
So Jack was ready to give up everything in his life for Ennis, and by saying "You and Alma that's a life?" he was asking Ennis if he would do the same for him. And the asnwer was: No.
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So we could say that Jack was an unwilling player, whereas Ennis thought that playing the part was necessary.
I guess what Jack was saying was: "Ennis, I am your life, not Alma and the kids. You are my life, not Lureen and my child." Although Ennis recognized that he couldn't live without Jack, he still (at that point) thought that Jack did not constitute his entire life.
It must have been hard for Jack...
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. . Ennis . . . thought that Jack did not constitute his entire life.
It must have been hard for Jack...
Very Hard. I think you can see how crushed he is in his eyes when he looks at Ennis in this scene, right after Ennis says this ain't her fault. I think Jack is deeply hurt to realize (after the reunion and motel events) that Alma still has some hold on Ennis.
Well done Jake!
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Very Hard. I think you can see how crushed he is in his eyes when he looks at Ennis in this scene, right after Ennis says its not her fault. I think Jack is deeply hurt to realize (after the reunion and motel events) that Alma still has some hold on Ennis.
Well done Jake!
And yet, he seemd to have taken it quietly, ending with just the resigned question: "For how long..." This man: he was still willing to wait, even if could mean for an indefinite period into the future.
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Remember too Jack is the man ahead of his time. He knows what they could have together in a whole and complete way. Ennis can't even entertain the idea of a life with Jack. Jack can see what a partnership they would have.
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-- a dutiful husband and a good father.
From Ennis's view, it is his life including seeing Jack once a while in the middle of nowhere.
So we could say that Jack was an unwilling player, whereas Ennis thought that playing the part was necessary.
I guess what Jack was saying was: "Ennis, I am your life, not Alma and the kids. You are my life, not Lureen and my child." Although Ennis recognized that he couldn't live without Jack, he still (at that point) thought that Jack did not constitute his entire life.
tpe, you summed it up well. He question was crushed by Ennis's answer......and yes "for how long" that Ennis's term of life is going to last.
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So we could say that Jack was an unwilling player, whereas Ennis thought that playing the part was necessary.
I guess what Jack was saying was: "Ennis, I am your life, not Alma and the kids. You are my life, not Lureen and my child." Although Ennis recognized that he couldn't live without Jack, he still (at that point) thought that Jack did not constitute his entire life.
It must have been hard for Jack...
Beautifully put, tpe!
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I have to say that since Jack is the one with the imagination, i think he ses the place and the way they live, when he's in a highly-wrought sate just after the reunion kiss, and compares that reality with his own vision of their future. I don;t think he can see how or why Ennis would prefer that to what he thinks they could have together - he sees Ennis as trapped in a limited ( materialistically and emotionally) life and wants so much more for them both. And Alma seems to him the obstacle, or if she doesn't at least she makes a convenient scapegoat - better to blame her than Ennis, since he loves Ennis and doesn't think much of Alma.
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Remember too Jack is the man ahead of his time. He knows what they could have together in a whole and complete way. Ennis can't even entertain the idea of a life with Jack. Jack can see what a partnership they would have.
The irony of it all is that Ennis probably recognized that his life with Alma wasn't really a life, but that he assumed that it was something that he had to live with. Jack probably understood where Ennis was coming from, but refused to let go of the possibilities.
So I guess, risk-taking was what differentiated them.
And thanks, Ethan and lamusica.
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I have a sneaking suspicion that his marriage to alma, disregarding his involvement with Jack, would have been no more and no less that Ennis expected - I think his idea of marriage was a pretty limited one and one that was becoming increasingly dated even by the late 60s. However, Ennis is also so very evidently a product of a different mind-set or culture than our present one - he's not really an individualist or any sort of a rebel - to him getting married is a part of the continuum of a conventional life, as is wiorking, having children...He doesn't feel he has the right to be happy, the right when a relationship doesn't work to toss it aside and move on. to me Ennis has aspects of the archetypal american pioneer, silent, stoical, enduring.
Jack by contrast is so much more our contemporary - ready to try things and abandon them, ready to move from place to place, occupation to occupation, class to class, and always wanting something better for himself. It's exactly right that he would see Ennis's wife in a rather dismissinve, even contemptuous way, just as it's exactly right that Ennis never says anything critical about Lureen.
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The problem with Ennis is that he is too much the stoic. There is a conflict with the type of life he thinks he should be leading (the life with Alma) and the life he knows he should be living if he is to attain happiness for himself: the life with Jack. But the pursuit of happiness didn't seem to matter to much to Ennis -- pain and suffering is too much ingrained in him to dare hope for happiness.
Had he aspired to happiness more, perhaps he wouldn't have stood the life he had with Alma. True, it wasn't her fault.
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I think also we need to remember to Ennis having a life with Jack is out of bounds of what is possible, you might as well say "lets build a house on the moon" to him. So he does see his life with Alma as ok. He doesn't have expectations of anything but yeah being repressed and sad.
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So he does see his life with Alma as ok. He doesn't have expectations of anything but yeah being repressed and sad.
Good observation too. Thanks. "Two guys living together....no way" is Ennis's view of life. It is also his fear that hinders his pursuit of happiness.
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I remember the motel scene when Jack asked him about his life the four years they were separated. Ennis answer was "I don't know". I really think he didn't know what was going on with him in those four years. But when he was with Jack again whether it was a curse or a blessing he saw so clearly what made him feel again. That thing/his love was released in him. You can see it when he grabbed for Jack, you could see it when after making love to him again, he was softer, gentlier in his speech, and demeanor, he was loving.
Then Jack asked him that fatal question: "What do we do now?" Ennis understood then, like a dark cloud that came over them, there was not much they could do.
Jack had his part of life that he didn't want to give up and needed. But Alma was the only way he could live his life.
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The main problem I think is that Ennis knew after Jack reappeared that he could not be faithful to Alma. In that sense, he must have known somehow that this was incompatible with having a life with her.
Well, Ennis (and Jack, to some extent) are quite peculiar in this regard -- perhaps thinking that faithfulness to their wives constituted not having affairs with other WOMEN. The same holds true the other way: faithfulness to each other constitues not having affairs with other MEN. It was a compartmentalization that Ennis assumed Alma would learn to live with. This was wishful thinking, of course.
So as much as he may think that a life with Jack would be impossible in that society, so too his compartmentalization. He could either give up Jack or give up Alma, and assuming the former to be impossible, he would have to repudiate Jack entirely. He didn't. That wasn't a life -- for Jack AND Alma.
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The main problem I think is that Ennis knew after Jack reappeared that he could not be faithful to Alma. In that sense, he must have known somehow that this was incompatible with having a life with her.
Well, Ennis (and Jack, to some extent) are quite peculiar in this regard -- perhaps thinking that faithfulness to their wives constituted not having affairs with other WOMEN. The same holds true the other way: faithfulness to each other constitues not having affairs with other MEN. It was a compartmentalization that Ennis assumed Alma would learn to live with. This was wishful thinking, of course.
So as much as he may think that a life with Jack would be impossible in that society, so too his compartmentalization. He could either give up Jack or give up Alma, and assuming the former to be impossible, he would have to repudiate Jack entirely. He didn't. That wasn't a life -- for Jack AND Alma.
There may be truth in what you're saying. Jack did not follow that thinking. Ennis did. He neither thought of another woman until Cassie after the divorce, and never thought of another man during his relationship with Jack. But, didn't he think that he was betraying either Jack or Alma?, (talk about compartmentalization). Ennis lived his life so precariously that the slightest whisper of truth could bring it crashing down, (which it did happen eventually), Ennis held on to convention hoping that in it self would be good enough to hold to want he wanted, (Jack), and what he needed in order to survive, (Alma).
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There may be truth in what you're saying. Jack did not follow that thinking. Ennis did. He neither thought of another woman until Cassie after the divorce, and never thought of another man during his relationship with Jack. But, didn't he think that he was betraying either Jack or Alma?, (talk about compartmentalization). Ennis lived his life so precariously that the slightest whisper of truth could bring it crashing down, (which it did happen eventually), Ennis held on to convention hoping that in it self would be good enough to hold to want he wanted, (Jack), and what he needed in order to survive, (Alma).
Yes, I do believe that is at the heart of Ennis's thinking. That he could hold on to a life of normalcy with Alma so long as his relationship with Jack was to be secret. But it didn't turn out to be a well-kept secret. He was quite careless, and he himself had an inkling that it wasn't well kept (witness his paranoia in the later scene about other people knowing).
I think even if Alma had not seen them kiss, she would have found out later, due to Ennis's carelessness. It tells me that he was not particularly concerned of really hiding the truth from Alma. I guess he assumed that wanting a life of normalcy would be sufficient to keep Alma quiet. It did for a while, but it was foolish of him to think that she could bear it forever.
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It's a bit like "I can believe two impossible things before breakfast" - but I think Ennis really sees the two thiongs as entirely different. In a way Alma is real life while Jack is the dream.
But what a limited real life it is - and when Alma suggests going out he has some objection - makes sense that he doesn't want to go out with her and Jack (!) and to me it also makes sense that he doesn't want to go to the church thing but it gives the impression that for Ennis life with Alma is just work, eat, children, sleep, repetitive dull routine, whereas for the short periods he's with Jack it's all exciting, full of feeling,like a holiday, as one wants life to be but knows it can't be.
He never seems to think that Alma may find her life tedious or unrewarding, lacking in material comfort, lacking in emotional warmth, lacking in social contact - when you think about it, Jack is right in a way when he says "That's a life?"
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He never seems to think that Alma may find her life tedious or unrewarding, lacking in material comfort, lacking in emotional warmth, lacking in social contact - when you think about it, Jack is right in a way when he says "That's a life?"
That's because he's used to it. And when Jack questioned his and Alma's life together, it was as if Jack was questioning the life he is used to live. Again, he couldn't see beyond what he is used to. He expected it of himself, and he expected the same from Jack and Alma...
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Again, he couldn't see beyond what he is used to. He expected it of himself, and he expected the same from Jack and Alma...
Ah, it seems that word control is rearing its ugly head.
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When you look around you, you see lots of relationships that just hold on because neither party wants to go through the hassle of dissolving the partnership. There's no open hostility between the two, just taking each other for granted or just ignoring one another. The relationship just sort of withers with time, and both people feel caught, but not desparate enough to get out. I think that's what Alma and Ennis had -- Jack and Lureen, too. Jack, though, was willing to go through the hell of a break-up if there was something at the other end he really wanted (a life with Ennis -- maybe even Randall), but Ennis could see nothing but failure in divorce or separation. Thus, in his mind, he and Alma had a life.
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Indeed, your right about relationships where people for one reason or another drift apart without really ever saying goodbye. Maybe it's the finality, of the matter people can't face, that they've failed at the most important issue in life.
Both Alma and Ennis had some one *waiting in the wings* Monroe and Jack. perhaps contributing to the prolonged divorce. I don't know what finally convinced Alma to dump Ennis, but I don't think reality set in for Ennis until he stood before the divorce court. Had to face that his *life* with Alma was a pretense, yet he felt he'd failed at some point in this traditional marriage. Sadly he could'nt commit fully to either Jack nor Alma in the end. Not a good place to be for all concerned. :( My 2 cents.
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Ah, it seems that word control is rearing its ugly head.
Ennis could be very controlling. However, he didn't seem to carry through most of the time: he never said anything about Jack's Mexico trips until the last confrontation. He let Alma go away when she had to work the extra shift at the grocery. So it would seem that although he had very set ideas on what a life he, Alma, and Jack should be leading, he nonetheless never seemed to have gone beyond initial objections or threats.
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When you look around you, you see lots of relationships that just hold on because neither party wants to go through the hassle of dissolving the partnership. There's no open hostility between the two, just taking each other for granted or just ignoring one another. The relationship just sort of withers with time, and both people feel caught, but not desparate enough to get out. I think that's what Alma and Ennis had -- Jack and Lureen, too. Jack, though, was willing to go through the hell of a break-up if there was something at the other end he really wanted (a life with Ennis -- maybe even Randall), but Ennis could see nothing but failure in divorce or separation. Thus, in his mind, he and Alma had a life.
Indeed, your right about relationships where people for one reason or another drift apart without really ever saying goodbye. Maybe it's the finality, of the matter people can't face, that they've failed at the most important issue in life.
Both Alma and Ennis had some one *waiting in the wings* Monroe and Jack. perhaps contributing to the prolonged divorce. I don't know what finally convinced Alma to dump Ennis, but I don't think reality set in for Ennis until he stood before the divorce court. Had to face that his *life* with Alma was a pretense, yet he felt he'd failed at some point in this traditional marriage. Sadly he could'nt commit fully to either Jack nor Alma in the end. Not a good place to be for all concerned. :( My 2 cents.
I think it was Oscar Wilde who said: habit is stronger than hate.
Many times, (as Thoreau had said), people live lives of quiet desperation. And this is probably close to describing what Ennis envisioned as a life with Alma. It was a life that would make do -- and not reach out to the stars, like something that Jack would have wanted. It became a matter of something of comfort: as a habit is wont to do even when the original reason behind it has long been forgotten.
Ennis wanted an anchor, and a faily life with Alma and the childern offered this. Happiness was really secondary.
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It's also true that if you are in love with someone and want to live with them, you can't see why they don't want the same, and can't believe they'd settle for the dull domestic life they currently lead when they could trade it for an exciting one with you. It never occurs to you at the time that any life, however exciting and romantic, will eventually become routine, though if you're lucky in a less empty fashion than that of Ennis's marriage.
In fact I think the problem with that marriage is that there was never much, if any, passion to begin with, and it's pretty routine from the beginning.
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It's also true that if you are in love with someone and want to live with them, you can't see why they don't want the same, and can't believe they'd settle for the dull domestic life they currently lead when they could trade it for an exciting one with you. It never occurs to you at the time that any life, however exciting and romantic, will eventually become routine, though if you're lucky in a less empty fashion than that of Ennis's marriage.
In fact I think the problem with that marriage is that there was never much, if any, passion to begin with, and it's pretty routine from the beginning.
The notion of romantic love as being the norm is fairly modern. Marriage had always been a social tool first and foremost throughout history -- as a way of fostering alliances. Love had very little to do with it initially.
Hence, Ennis's life with Alma can be viewed in this way: as something he needed in order to become more socially acceptable. His relationship with Jack can be viewed more in terms of romantic love.
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But don't we have to remember that in a marriage depends on what you put into it. Let's face it Ennis really didn't put much into it. He worked provided for them, or try to. But that was it. Look back at the scene where Alma wanted to go to the church social, if Ennis was interested in keeping his marriage intact, he would have know that this something Alma wanted, to make her happy he would have taken her, but he didn't he watch TV and worked on his next beer, MARRIAGE KILLER, rule #1 make the wife happy.
The social tool theory is all well and good, but to keep that tool working takes maintenance and care, and Ennis did not do this. Regardless what Alma knew or didn't understand regarding what she saw at the reunion, Ennis participation in this marriage was nonexistent.
IMO Alma would have stayed with Ennis if he only showed some interest in her well being as his wife, and his woman. Ennis didn't have a clue on making a woman content.
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But don't we have to remember that in a marriage depends on what you put into it. Let's face it Ennis really didn't put much into it. He worked provided for them, or try to. But that was it. Look back at the scene where Alma wanted to go to the church social, if Ennis was interested in keeping his marriage intact, he would have know that this something Alma wanted, to make her happy he would have taken her, but he didn't he watch TV and worked on his next beer, MARRIAGE KILLER, rule #1 make the wife happy.
The social tool theory is all well and good, but to keep that tool working takes maintenance and care, and Ennis did not do this. Regardless what Alma knew or didn't understand regarding what she saw at the reunion, Ennis participation in this marriage was nonexistent.
IMO Alma would have stayed with Ennis if he only showed some interest in her well being as his wife, and his woman. Ennis didn't have a clue on making a woman content.
Alas, in many cases, the fact that a marriage provided some degree of social acceptability was enough incentive for disinterested/unloving couples to stay married.
I recently had a discussion with someone who was in a marriage for about 10 years before they settled amicably for a divorce. The lady knew from the very start that he was gay, but agreed to the marriage for certain reasons. He, of course, was expected by his family to marry, so this was quite a convenient arrangement. From what I was told, they pretty much lived separate lives throughout those 10 years. Surprisingly, they got used to the arrangement, and the divorce was caused by some other reason.
So I guess Ennis and Alma need not have put anything into it for a marriage to seemingly work. It depends on one's specific interests: social acceptability is not the least.
The problem, of course, was that Alma expected more out of the marriage -- and not just social acceptability. She wanted love, and I guess Ennis really didn't bargain for this on a deeper level.
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But don't we have to remember that in a marriage depends on what you put into it. Let's face it Ennis really didn't put much into it. He worked provided for them, or try to. But that was it. Look back at the scene where Alma wanted to go to the church social, if Ennis was interested in keeping his marriage intact, he would have know that this something Alma wanted, to make her happy he would have taken her, but he didn't he watch TV and worked on his next beer, MARRIAGE KILLER, rule #1 make the wife happy.
The social tool theory is all well and good, but to keep that tool working takes maintenance and care, and Ennis did not do this. Regardless what Alma knew or didn't understand regarding what she saw at the reunion, Ennis participation in this marriage was nonexistent.
IMO Alma would have stayed with Ennis if he only showed some interest in her well being as his wife, and his woman. Ennis didn't have a clue on making a woman content.
I think the whole question of Ennis's non-participation in the marriage, goes back to the reason he married Alma in the first place. He simply went through the motions , never really putting his heart and soul into the marriage because his heart was'nt in it after his experiences on BBM with Jack.
He only married her in the first place to try to prove to himself that he was'nt gay. This basis of questioning and denial clouded everything from then on. Alma was not his priority really. Moving on from BB proved much harder than he anticipated that day he let Jack drive off. The very thought of loosing Jack made this tough cowboy plysically ill. So much for a solid, happy foundation for a happy marriage with her.
I liken it to that old game show Let's make A Deal , where a contestant is givin a great sure thing to hold and feel in their hands, then is offered a chance to trade that sure thing for an unknown prize behind door No. 3! It could be a better prize than what he has or it could be a dud. It's all a game of chance. Jack was a sure thing and he knew it, but traded it /took a chance for a *life* with Alma in which he soon found out that it all never compared to what he had with Jack. Marriage is something that two people have to want in order to be willing to make it work and allow the love to grow. How could he make Alma happy, when he was not even happy with himself? and in denial of his true self? Ennis may very well have gone through all this on a not so concious level, treating Alma shabbily as he did, but at the core was his desire to be with the one he truly loved and felt an phyisical and emotional bond with from the start and that was Jack Twist.
Once he got Jack back in his arms again during the reunion scene, and his " no reins on this one" comment tells me that Ennis had once again , after four long years ,found his true calling and his true love and I don't think he intended to ever let it go again. In my opinion he only found real contentment when he was with Jack, where his true self could shine through. Don't think this was ever really true with Alma. My thoughts.
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During four years of Jack's absence, we don't know much about what went on between Ennis and Alma in their marriage. I think as soon as Ennis said "this is a one-shot thing," he was determined to go on with his life. I don't think Ennis could really see Jack was the one he loved after spending the summer with Jack up in the mountain. Alma was his priority but of course it diminished over the years. Somehow I feel that Ennis would be capable of carrying the marriage through had he not heard from Jack four years later. Don't forget that at Alma's wish, Ennis did move to town in an apartment.
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I agree, Ethan; if Jack hadn't contacted Ennis, Ennis wouldn't have tried to find him. He'd have soldiered on with Alma, probably getting less and less from his marriage except for some pleasure from the two girls, but he'd have gone by his mantra "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it," and he'd have put up with his life as it was.
It looks a very narrow and limited life to us, but I guess it reflects what many marriages were ( and are) like, specially among those in remote areas, in manual work, with limited possibilities and mobility.
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I think you right Ethan, this is what I was trying to say - the "Sweet Life" Jack wanted (and thought they could achieve together) was all three - materialistically, emotionally, and physically rewarding. That's what made it so damn sweet IMHO. And he didn't see a life with Alma measuring up to that dreamy possibility.
It was a dreamy possibility that could have been made real had Ennis just taken the leap of faith and faced his fear. Materialistically the two together would have been far better off, emotionally there is nothing better than sharing your everyday life with all its ups and downs than with the one you love, and physically, wow, all that good lovin!!!
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That's one of the sad parts about the story. Ennis probably loved Alma...just not passionately. He loved Jack passionately, but was not willing to take that next step with Jack. It still breaks my heart to think of what was lost here. :\'(
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During four years of Jack's absence, we don't know much about what went on between Ennis and Alma in their marriage. I think as soon as Ennis said "this is a one-shot thing," he was determined to go on with his life. I don't think Ennis could really see Jack was the one he loved after spending the summer with Jack up in the mountain. Alma was his priority but of course it diminished over the years. Somehow I feel that Ennis would be capable of carrying the marriage through had he not heard from Jack four years later. Don't forget that at Alma's wish, Ennis did move to town in an apartment.
I don't know, his reaction when he saw Jack again was too intense, that reaction came from somewhere deep within him. When Alma told of the postcard, the waitng patiently by the window. This was more than waiting for a friend to show up, this was waiting for your life to show up again.
He was given a second chance at something he lost, or let get away from him. "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" Jack said to him at the end. Ennis felt that way those few hours he waited for Jack. IMO.
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I don't know, his reaction when he saw Jack again was too intense, that reaction came from somewhere deep within him. When Alma told of the postcard, the waitng patiently by the window. This was more than waiting for a friend to show up, this was waiting for your life to show up again.
You said it girl!! O0
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I react to Ethan's and WW's latest post.
I think Ennis was determined to make the marriage with Alma work -- build a life with her and try to bring up a family in a way that he himself never experienced. But I also think that he probably couldn't forget Jack and probably loved him still with a helplessness of a person who wishes to forget but cannot forget. The one telling sign is his preference for anal intercourse with Alma. It seems to indicate that his experiece in BBM became subliminated within his married life -- in whatever he could do to incorporate some of that experience with his life with Alma... Alma substituting for Jack, in his mind's eye.
So when Jack asked the question during the reunion night up in the mountains, I think Ennis knew exactly what jack was referring to. Was this really the life he wanted to lead? The fatc that Ennis didn't answer the question directly (yes or no) is very telling.
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I don't know, his reaction when he saw Jack again was too intense, that reaction came from somewhere deep within him. When Alma told of the postcard, the waitng patiently by the window. This was more than waiting for a friend to show up, this was waiting for your life to show up again.
He was given a second chance at something he lost, or let get away from him. "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" Jack said to him at the end. Ennis felt that way those few hours he waited for Jack. IMO.
This says it all MG. Ennis stated that it took him about a year to realize that he should'nt have let Jack out of his sight. These are not the words of a man who is satisfied with the status quo of his marriage.
From the moment he received the postcard from Jack, he was walking on air. He now had a real purpose to be happy again. As MG said this was more than just a friend, or a mere forgotten aquaintence from the past. This was some one he shared intimate moments with four years before. He fell in love with Jack before he married Alma, somewhat diminishing Alma's status as the preferred one in his life. Yet he tried to make a go of it.
Ennis could have chosen not to answer the postcard at all if he really wanted to not have Jack back in his life givin their history, and try to make a serious go at his marriage to Alma, but did this happen? No, quite the opposite. He wrote back a simple " You bet" , in other words * I'd be more than delighted to see you again" . Ennis dressed in a new shirt, took off from work and waited all day with determination by the window to see Jack again.
When he finally had Jack back safely in his arms..well my jaw dropped at the emotion in this scene from Ennis. Could'nt wait to show Jack exactly what his intentions were by kissing him, practically in the street. Something way out of the ordinary for Ennis to do. The happiness on his face that he had Jack back in his arms again.. well all I can say is not many of us get second chances to right a wrong but that kiss he laid on Jack was the most devastatingly honest thing that beats all I've ever seen. So intense.
It's as if Ennis can't believe hs luck. Jack was life to Ennis , not Alma and he had returned to complete him once again. My thoughts.
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I imagine that Ennis, being Ennis, went on with the plans that had been settled before he spent the summer on Brokeback and married Alma, only to realise as time passed that first year, that there was something missing from his life and that the something was Jack. Being Ennis, he does nothing about it, but that he wants to can be deduced from his rapturous reaction to Jacks's card and subsequent appearance.
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And then in the motel room, Ennis's somber " I'm STUCK with what I have now" Not the words of a happily married man. No doubt he feels trapped and * stuck* in the life he has with Alma. Tells Jack to " shut up about Alma, it's not her fault" He was right, but who is at fault? Anybody? who was it that jumped into this marriage without fully thinking it through after Brokeback? One guess.
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Of course, the comment "That's a life?" is a mistake on Jack's part - it's so tempting, if you love someone and see a third party as an obstacle to your being together, to denigrate the third party or the conditions they cause your object to live in. So you voice your feeling, which comes over as criticism, contempt, superiority, dismissiveness and the other person's back goes up so that they feel forced into defending the third person even if they have a niggling feeling that they rae in fact not as content with the status quo as they make out.
In a sense "This ain't her fault" entrenches Ennis in his position that he's with Alma and has to stay there. It's also the soert of reaction convention would expect from a husband whose wife is criticized, and ennis is nothing if not conventional, or at least wants to be thought so.
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And then in the motel room, Ennis's somber " I'm STUCK with what I have now" Not the words of a happily married man. No doubt he feels trapped and * stuck* in the life he has with Alma. Tells Jack to " shut up about Alma, it's not her fault" He was right, but who is at fault? Anybody? who was it that jumped into this marriage without fully thinking it through after Brokeback? One guess.
I did feel the same -- that Ennis felt trapped by circumstances of his own making. He probably realized it then. I guess when he said " shut up about Alma, it's not her fault", he was saying in a way that it was indeed HIS OWN fault. So in a sense, the statement was not a rebuke against Jack but a rebuke against himself.
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I did feel the same -- that Ennis felt trapped by circumstances of his own making. He probably realized it then. I guess when he said " shut up about Alma, it's not her fault", he was saying in a way that it was indeed HIS OWN fault. So in a sense, the statement was not a rebuke against Jack but a rebuke against himself.
Certainly, It does appear that Ennis was saying to Jack " I screwed this up, not Alma" so don't blame her. Feelings of guilt and regret coming into play here imo. But to me they both screwed things up when they married for the wrong reasons. Jack had his messed up circumstances , (by the way he was willing to leave at the drop of a hat for Ennis) in Texas and Ennis had his messed up circumstances there in Riverton.
Both were admitting that their "lives"/marriages were mistakes.Jack was willing to fix his, and Ennis was a major factor in his plans ,but Ennis was only willing to stand it further. ??? :s). MO.
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Of course, the comment "That's a life?" is a mistake on Jack's part - it's so tempting, if you love someone and see a third party as an obstacle to your being together, to denigrate the third party or the conditions they cause your object to live in. So you voice your feeling, which comes over as criticism, contempt, superiority, dismissiveness and the other person's back goes up so that they feel forced into defending the third person even if they have a niggling feeling that they rae in fact not as content with the status quo as they make out.
In a sense "This ain't her fault" entrenches Ennis in his position that he's with Alma and has to stay there. It's also the soert of reaction convention would expect from a husband whose wife is criticized, and ennis is nothing if not conventional, or at least wants to be thought so.
Very interesting observation. I am not sure if it is a mistake on Jack's part. Jack can read Ennis and he senses that Ennis is not happy with his marriage. It just occurred to me that most of time Jack is the one asking questions. He takes vast interests in understanding Ennis's position in the relationship.
I guess Jack was not surprised at Ennis's answer as WW has pointed out Ennis's defense for the criticism. It turns out...Ennis made statements all the time.
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Certainly, It does appear that Ennis was saying to Jack " I screwed this up, not Alma" so don't blame her. Feelings of guilt and regret coming into play here imo. But to me they both screwed things up when they married for the wrong reasons. Jack had his messed up circumstances , (by the way he was willing to leave at the drop of a hat for Ennis) in Texas and Ennis had his messed up circumstances there in Riverton.
Both were admitting that their "lives"/marriages were mistakes.Jack was willing to fix his, and Ennis was a major factor in his plans ,but Ennis was only willing to stand it further. ??? :s). MO.
Yes, I think both of them realized that their marrying for the wrong reasons was at the heart of the current difficulties -- and they themselves were to balme, given waht they knew about themselves and the way they felt AFTER the summer of 63. Jack I think pretty much admitted the same in the motel scene when he asked "waht are we gonna do now?" It was part rhetorical, part desperation. He knew that there was no simple answer to this -- at least, there was no answer specific to his liking. He wanted a shared life, and he knew that there would be no such shared life while Ennis had a life with Alma, and he with Lureen.
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Very interesting observation. I am not sure if it is a mistake on Jack's part. Jack can read Ennis and he senses that Ennis is not happy with his marriage. It just occurred to me that most of time Jack is the one asking questions. He takes vast interests in understanding Ennis's position in the relationship.
I guess Jack was not surprised at Ennis's answer as WW has pointed out Ennis's defense for the criticism. It turns out...Ennis made statements all the time.
It seems to me that Ennis asked very little questions because he pretty much feared the answers. There is something comforting about making statements that one does not have to ask questions about beforehand, no?
Stating something as if it were a fact seems to drive uncertainty away. Such was the case with Ennis in this scene, IMO.
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True, Thomas. It's always dangerous to ask questions if you think the answer may be something you don't want to hear and might have to act on. If ennis had asked Jack what he should do about his marriage, the answer would have involved his abandoning alma and committing to Jack, which he didn't want to do. That's why he ridicules Jack's suggestion that he should move away from Riverton - he's too afraid of the implications.
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yes, in a way when Jack asked the question, he was already making an assumption that Ennis didn't have a life with Alma. Jack was probably hoping that Ennis would agree with him.
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Thanks WW and Ethan.
Honestly, if I were Jack, I would have probably made the same assumption. And I don't think Ennis would have denied that he loved Jack more than Alma. Their love for each other seemed beyond doubt. But how to go from there seemed to have been the stumbling block. Jack probed, and Ennis evaded. Not a very good sign. It never is a very good sign.
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If you looked at the divorce scene again, you will see tears in Ennis's eyes. Why do you think this was? I watch that scene over and over, what in the world did this man want? Ennis seem so oblivious to the reality of his love for Jack, like if no one knew, it would be OK. If Alma never saw the kiss, Ennis slow withdrawl of emotion away from her still would be felt by her.
Ennis did possess an abundance of conflicting emotions, and no knowledge of how to deal with them.
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I think Ennis at the point of their divorce was not oblivious to his love for Jack, on the contrary;perhaps he felt that this was then more living,more real than ever,because the wall who separated each other had dissapeared.And perhaps this situation overwhelmed him,because the destruction of the easy cover-up of his marriage forced in same way to affront his own reality:his feelings to another man and the answer he knew sooner or later he must give to this complex situation.Letting aside the fact that he loved Alma in other lebel than Jack,and more still his daughters;so these circumstances are never easy and feelings usually overcome people.
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If you looked at the divorce scene again, you will see tears in Ennis's eyes. Why do you think this was? I watch that scene over and over, what in the world did this man want? Ennis seem so oblivious to the reality of his love for Jack, like if no one knew, it would be OK. If Alma never saw the kiss, Ennis slow withdrawl of emotion away from her still would be felt by her.
Ennis did possess an abundance of conflicting emotions, and no knowledge of how to deal with them.
I think it's partly because Ennis did love Alma in a way. That love was different from the love he had for Jack. For example, there was true tenderness when Ennis kissed her goodbye right before joing Jack for the reunion trip up the mountains. Although that kiss was a kiss of betrayal, it was also a kiss of affection -- and a kiss for understanding. And even though Ennis truly loved Jack, Alma stood for the life that Ennis yearned -- a life of normalcy, with a family, in tune with the society around them. So I guess for Ennis, Alma also stood for many lost ideals, and in a way, he loved her for it.
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I think it's partly because Ennis did love Alma in a way. That love was different from the love he had for Jack. For example, there was true tenderness when Ennis kissed her goodbye right before joing Jack for the reunion trip up the mountains. Although that kiss was a kiss of betrayal, it was also a kiss of affection -- and a kiss for understanding. And even though Ennis truly loved Jack, Alma stood for the life that Ennis yearned -- a life of normalcy, with a family, in tune with the society around them. So I guess for Ennis, Alma also stood for many lost ideals, and in a way, he loved her for it.
Oh yeah, I watch that scene too, he looks at her, kisses her good bye. A kiss of betrayal, yes, but a vision of life, let's face it didn't really exist, but only in Ennis's mind, but is this the life he yearned for or a life he needed as protection? There is a big difference. Ennis had to decide who and what he was and no way ready to even face that question, so he care for Alma, but needed Alma to keep his secert self from ever coming out. When Ennis lost that, he was face with himself, and wasn't ready to deal with it, kept Jack at a distance, but still not letting him go. Ennis was really only fooling himself. IMO.
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Oh yeah, I watch that scene too, he looks at her, kisses her good bye. A kiss of betrayal, yes, but a vision of life, let's face it didn't really exist, but only in Ennis's mind, but is this the life he yearned for or a life he needed as protection? There is a big difference. Ennis had to decide who and what he was and no way ready to even face that question, so he care for Alma, but needed Alma to keep his secert self from ever coming out. When Ennis lost that, he was face with himself, and wasn't ready to deal with it, kept Jack at a distance, but still not letting him go. Ennis was really only fooling himself. IMO.
Yes, in many many ways, Ennis was never really that realistic. We are wont to say that it was Jack who was the dreamer, but Ennis was also enwrapped in a serious form of unreality -- that his marriage with Alma was the life that he really wanted. He did succeed in fooling himself for so long -- partly because he half-wished for such a life and supposed that he can have his cake and eat it too. In the end, pretending not to know any better not only hurt himself -- it hurt everyone around him: most of all, the people who loved him.
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Yes,I also think that Ennis lived in a kind of dream,or perhaps nightmare,thinking that being "well seen" for the society he lived in was all what he wanted and needed.But I also think,as I said in my post above,that seeing this dream destroyed by the divorce made him feel almost terror because then,since he was already free, he must face to the other kind of life that Jack represented.And of course,he loved Alma in such a different way than his lover, and the situation was not easy for him,no matter what kind of feelings he had for his ex wife.
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I do think he certainly lived a life of unease after his divorce with Alma. But a life of unease was preferable to him than to live openly with Jack. So much did he fool himself about what kind of life he wanted. Even after Alma divorced him, he still made his responsibilities to his children a pretext from saying no to Jack's dream.
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It's entirely possible to live a not-quite -satisfactory life with one person most of the time, as Ennis does with Alma, and keep a second life as a sort of dream. Then when one takes up the second life for a brief period, that becomes reality, except at the back of one's mind is the tiny clock counting down and saying "This too must pass" as it inevitably does. It's possible to be angry when the other person intrudes and upsets the balance of the two worlds by demanding a commitment that would mean the abandonment of one world - that's what Ennis can't do and I think had Jack lived would never have done. Deep down he knows that what he has with Alma lacks depth, but the alternatives are what Jack wants, which terrifies him, or what he eventually ends up with. Had Alma not divorced him, I'd expect him to stay with her.
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It's entirely possible to live a not-quite -satisfactory life with one person most of the time, as Ennis does with Alma, and keep a second life as a sort of dream. Then when one takes up the second life for a brief period, that becomes reality, except at the back of one's mind is the tiny clock counting down and saying "This too must pass" as it inevitably does. It's possible to be angry when the other person intrudes and upsets the balance of the two worlds by demanding a commitment that would mean the abandonment of one world - that's what Ennis can't do and I think had Jack lived would never have done. Deep down he knows that what he has with Alma lacks depth, but the alternatives are what Jack wants, which terrifies him, or what he eventually ends up with. Had Alma not divorced him, I'd expect him to stay with her.
A "life" with Alma was the easier of the two options. Well, I guess this is not how Ennis envisions this: for Ennis, there was only ONE option. For him, a life with Jack was an impossibility.
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I see this as no different than any other situation where for reasons the married man decides to cheat on his wife. In this case, Jack plays the role of the "other woman" . Falls in love with with Ennis who is commited to someone else. He wants what is already taken. As in alot of cases, the married man ( Ennis ) will not leave the wife for the "other" lover. For awhile he is having his cake, and eating it too imo. It is more than about sex though with Jack. There is a real emotional bond here clearly seen from Jack's point of view. He wants Ennis to leave his wife for him and he was willing to do the same. Only difference being the homosexual elements to the story. I feel that this is part of the attraction to this story for many straight women. They have lived Jack's experience. Statistics have shown that usally under "traditional "circumstances, this scenario of the man actually leaving his wife and kids for the "other lover" in most instances ,is few and far between so the odds were against Jack from the start, but this was far from the traditonal setup. The excuse is usally " I have reponsibilities to my family". Or" I can't actually leave my wife and kids" for you, but I really like you alot etc... we can continue to sneak around" , "She never has to know."...someone gets careless, Then the wife finds out.
Alma found out the hard way that her husband was not only unfaithful, but was unfaithful , not with another woman , but a man. She cannot begin to understand this, therefore she cannot compete or express her outrage as if it was another woman. She does not possess the anatomy nor the mindset of this other man to compete. She eventually found a way out. This leaves Ennis on his own , free to be in a life with Jack. But there are other elements at play here. Alma had the ammo to destoy him ,though she never played that card against them to her credit, but Jack was still left to suffer Ennis's refusal to take advantage of this new found freedom and I'm not sure who suffered the most in the end, Jack or Alma. Neither one had a real "life "under Ennis. Jack tried everything in the book within his power to get Ennis to commit to a life with him. The battle was not with Alma, but was within Ennis himself, the worst kind to over come. Unfortuatlely it became Jack's battle too. My take.
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Alma found out the hard way that her husband was not only unfaithful, but was unfaithful , not with another woman , but a man. She cannot begin to understand this, therefore she cannot compete or express her outrage as if it was another woman. She does not possess the anatomy nor the mindset of this other man to compete. She eventually found a way out. This leaves Ennis on his own , free to be in a life with Jack. But there are other elements at play here. Alma had the ammo to destoy him ,though she never played that card against them to her credit, but Jack was still left to suffer Ennis's refusal to take advantage of this new found freedom and I'm not sure who suffered the most in the end, Jack or Alma. Neither one had a real "life "under Ennis. Jack tried everything in the book within his power to get Ennis to commit to a life with him. The battle was not with Alma, but was within Ennis himself, the worst kind to over come. Unfortuatlely it became Jack's battle too. My take.
Very interesting take, aintfooin. O0 Thanks.
If you looked at the divorce scene again, you will see tears in Ennis's eyes. Why do you think this was?
I tend to think Ennis's tears were his failure to keep the marriage intact, not because of his love for Alma.
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I agree, Ethan, and also think that to some degree they were an outward manifestion of his inner turmoil - now Alma was gone, and was taking the children with her, there were far fewer obstacles to his living with Jack. I can imagine him desperately thinking of how he was going to keep Jack at arm's length most of thetime and maintain the intermittent meetings which were all that he could handle. He must have known that Jack would drop everything for him and that must have been a frightening thought. Sometimes the love of another, however much you want it, can become a burden, specially when you can't live up to it, and I think Ennis knew deep inside that he was never going to commit wholeheartedly, publicly and irrevocably to Jack
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I agree, Ethan, and also think that to some degree they were an outward manifestion of his inner turmoil - now Alma was gone, and was taking the children with her, there were far fewer obstacles to his living with Jack. I can imagine him desperately thinking of how he was going to keep Jack at arm's length most of thetime and maintain the intermittent meetings which were all that he could handle. He must have known that Jack would drop everything for him and that must have been a frightening thought. Sometimes the love of another, however much you want it, can become a burden, specially when you can't live up to it, and I think Ennis knew deep inside that he was never going to commit wholeheartedly, publicly and irrevocably to Jack
I agree with what you said. I think in this respect Ennis was so unfair to Jack.
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I agree, Ethan, and also think that to some degree they were an outward manifestion of his inner turmoil - now Alma was gone, and was taking the children with her, there were far fewer obstacles to his living with Jack. I can imagine him desperately thinking of how he was going to keep Jack at arm's length most of thetime and maintain the intermittent meetings which were all that he could handle. He must have known that Jack would drop everything for him and that must have been a frightening thought. Sometimes the love of another, however much you want it, can become a burden, specially when you can't live up to it, and I think Ennis knew deep inside that he was never going to commit wholeheartedly, publicly and irrevocably to Jack
Great observation. In a way that Ennis was freed when his life with Alma was over. Jack did drop everything for him but only to be sent away. I feel that without the marriage as a cover-up for Ennis, he could not bear the burden to spend his life with Jack.
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Wonderful exchange here. Thanks all.
There is so much truth to what WW said about love becoming a burden.
And Ethan's comment about Ennis' tears is quite interesting and provocative. I must admit that a part of me thinks that Ennis somehow loved something in Alma -- at least what she represented to him: the representation of a life that he so desperately wanted to belong to. This blurs the distinction between Alma as beloved versus Alma as symbol.
And as WW said, the manifestation of inner turmoil does not necessarily mean love. Perhaps only regret on a failed life together.
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Ennis had to face the prospect of being "queer" all on his own, Alma was no longer there to ease that pressure. Let's face it that's a scary proposition for a man like Ennis. Out there in the world confronted with choices of continuing self-denial or final self-acceptance, and self-denial wins.
Even more parnoid than before, he's thinking now they all can tell, like there's a big scarlet "Q" on his forehead. How could he be good with Jack, if he's not good with himself, and through it all, he still wasn't letting Jack go, at no point did this entered his mind, but keeping Jack on Brokeback Mountain making him stay put, Jack certainly was someone he couldn't stand losing, and that world where they were safe.
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Very interesting posts.
I guess in a way - the divorce answered Jack's question, "you and Alma, that is a life?"
To Ennis, it was frightening. As MG pointed out, "a big scarlet "Q" on his forehead.
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As I was editing the video for 40th Anniversary of Ennis and Jack's reunion, this particular line caught my attention.
Ennis: ..you got your wife and baby down in Taxas, I got my life in Riverton.
Jack: Is that so? You and Alma, that's a life?
Given Ennis who is a man of a few words, how much does Jack know about Ennis and Alma's life? How much do you think Ennis tell Jack about his life with Alma that prompted Jack to ask if Ennis and Alma have a life?
What was Jack implying? Did Jack just assume that Ennis's true love was him, not Alma?
in my oppinion Jack knew that Ennis was the one for him and thought that Ennis would feel the same way. When they kiss and squeeze the braeth out of each other on the stairs Jack realized that Ennis's life is the same as his with Lureen- not much love, kids and one true love they will never speak about.
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Ennis had to face the prospect of being "queer" all on his own, Alma was no longer there to ease that pressure. Let's face it that's a scary proposition for a man like Ennis. Out there in the world confronted with choices of continuing self-denial or final self-acceptance, and self-denial wins.
Even more parnoid than before, he's thinking now they all can tell, like there's a big scarlet "Q" on his forehead. How could he be good with Jack, if he's not good with himself, and through it all, he still wasn't letting Jack go, at no point did this entered his mind, but keeping Jack on Brokeback Mountain making him stay put, Jack certainly was someone he couldn't stand losing, and that world where they were safe.
Interesting.
In a sense, Ennis's "life" with Alma was more a means rather than an end, no? With Alma and the marriage gone, there was nothing to ease the anxiety, as you say, regarding his own identity. The marriage helped Ennis cope with himself and his fears, even as he continued to see Jack and betray the very fabric of that marriage. That's because the betrayal of one was equivalent to being faithful and truthful to that other part of him that knew no fear and knew whom to love.
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Very interesting posts.
I guess in a way - the divorce answered Jack's question, "you and Alma, that is a life?"
To Ennis, it was frightening. As MG pointed out, "a big scarlet "Q" on his forehead.
Yes, the scarlet "Q" -- and the irony of it all is that it was Ennis who saw it the most.
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in my oppinion Jack knew that Ennis was the one for him and thought that Ennis would feel the same way. When they kiss and squeeze the braeth out of each other on the stairs Jack realized that Ennis's life is the same as his with Lureen- not much love, kids and one true love they will never speak about.
Welcome to the forum, iamakashiMAN.
You bring up an important point here: that Jack probably assumed that Ennis' life with ALma was pretty much like his life with Lureen. It is a form of reflection -- of a transitive association extrapolated between 2 people of like natures. You are probably right: this was what Jack probably had in mind when he questioned Ennis's life with Alma.
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In questioning whether Ennis and Alma had a life, Jack is picking up hints from Ennis's own words, as well as making assumptions ( as others have pointed out). Ennis's statements in the motel 'I'm stuck with what I got here' and ' makin' a livin's 'bout all I got time for now' were delivered in a downbeat tone of voice, with an air of miserable resignation.
Jack's facial response indicates that he reads too much into Ennis's 'shut up about Alma this aint her fault' in my view. Does Jack think that Ennis's defence of Alma means Ennis loves her? I think Ennis is just pointing out that the situation they find themselves in shouldn't be used as a reason to insult or blame Alma - it is out of her control.
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There is also the air of complicity when Jack is intorduced to Alma just after the reunion kiss. Jack must have felt extremely awkward, and we can forgive him if he thought that Ennis's life with Alma must be a sham. Complicity in the act of betrayal is of course also felt by Alma, who -- unbeknownst to Ennis and Jack -- observed the reunion kiss. We can understand Jack's questioning Ennis's life with Alma. After all, betrayal of one's wife is not exactly a good sign in a marriage.
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If you're the third in a triangle, you have a relationship with one person, who in turn has a somewhat similar relationship with another person. If you're the pig in the middle, you can just about cope but not when the two others suddenly come face to face.
If you're one of the other two, you either don't know about the other relationship, or if like Jack you do you have a tendency to discount it - "Oh, she doesn't really matter to him, I'm the really important one." Then you come up against the hard evidence, as Jack does, the wife and the two babies and the home made together and you're on the outside looking in. You see the person you think loves you looking awkward and embarrassed and not knowing how to behave in front of the two of you, and at that point all you want is to get him away and have him to yourself. You want to annihilate the third party. When she's not there, you can do so mentally at least.
Jack meets Alma just that once; next day he stays down by the pick-up, because although he's going to get Ennis to himself for a few days, this is where and to whom Ennis will return and he doesn't want to see her. Later all he wants to hear is Ennis saying that she doesn't matter to him as Jack does, but Ennis, torn between the two, can't be disloyal because he feels guilty and so defends Alma against Jack's implied criticism - and Jack thinks that means Ennis cares less for him than for Alma.
It's an impossible situation, as anyone who's ever been in it will know.
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Ennis clearly wanted to set apart his life with Alma and his other "life" with Jack. Although I am sure Jack also found it better that he not have any further contact with Alma, I am sure that Ennis also preferred it this way. It is clear that his lame excuse "He's from Texas..." speaks of his not wanting to give any opening for Alma and Jack to meet again.
It would seem then that Ennis considered 2 lives: a life with Alma for everyone in society to see, and a more interior, hidden life with Jack.
There is no doubt in my mind which of the 2 he preferred, but his life with Alma served a purpose -- it certainly helped in his mind provide cover for the interior life with Jack.
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Ennis clearly wanted to set apart his life with Alma and his other "life" with Jack. Although I am sure Jack also found it better that he not have any further contact with Alma, I am sure that Ennis also preferred it this way. It is clear that his lame excuse "He's from Texas..." speaks of his not wanting to give any opening for Alma and Jack to meet again.
It would seem then that Ennis considered 2 lives: a life with Alma for everyone in society to see, and a more interior, hidden life with Jack.
There is no doubt in my mind which of the 2 he preferred, but his life with Alma served a purpose -- it certainly helped in his mind provide cover for the interior life with Jack.
Why did he not open up to Jack fully in this hidden interior life? With Alma I could understand - that was a fake life. He had nothing to loose by being 'himself' with Jack. I can't work this out - was it just that Ennis being Ennis with all his internal angst, would never be truly open with anyone? Jack just got closer than anyone else.
When I first saw the film, before reading the screenplay, I thought Jack said 'You and Alma, thats a lie'. A Freudian slip in my hearing...
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For me, Ennis's interior life was slowly seeping into his exterior life with Alma in the most intimate way. He lived with Alma but they didn't have a life either. He worked and barely supported them, she took a job, he stayed home and watch TV, and never took her out, or on a trip. And in the most intimate moments, his sexual needs was something she didn't want or liked.
Alma resentment grew and soon ended the sham of their marriage. Jack asked the right question in the long run, "You and Alma, that's a life?".
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Why did he not open up to Jack fully in this hidden interior life? With Alma I could understand - that was a fake life. He had nothing to loose by being 'himself' with Jack. I can't work this out - was it just that Ennis being Ennis with all his internal angst, would never be truly open with anyone? Jack just got closer than anyone else.
When I first saw the film, before reading the screenplay, I thought Jack said 'You and Alma, thats a lie'. A Freudian slip in my hearing...
I think he did open up in that most important thing -- I think Jack knew that Ennis loved him. Even in the end, when Jack had lost all hope of living a life with Ennis -- when he was ready to move on -- he still probably felt that their love was intact. And I don't doubt this.
I do think he was pretty much himself with jack, as much as he was "himself" with himself, if you know what I mean. The problem with Ennis is that he was deeply conflicted. There were things about him that he himself probably didn't know -- and Jack helped him see through it all, I guess, which is why Ennis loved him.
I thus view Ennis's inner self as one of deep contradictions and divisions. Ennis did not hide it, and Jack certainly saw it, and loved him all the more.
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For me, Ennis's interior life was slowly seeping into his exterior life with Alma in the most intimate way. He lived with Alma but they didn't have a life either. He worked and barely supported them, she took a job, he stayed home and watch TV, and never took her out, or on a trip. And in the most intimate moments, his sexual needs was something she didn't want or liked.
Alma resentment grew and soon ended the sham of their marriage. Jack asked the right question in the long run, "You and Alma, that's a life?".
After the reunion, Ennis's inner contractions certainly helped corrode his marriage with Alma. His carelessness with Alma when it came to the fishing trips seem to indicate a part of himself wanting to be rid of all pretenses -- a sort of "let me be caught and be damned for it" type of mentality.
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Remember too Jack is the man ahead of his time. He knows what they could have together in a whole and complete way. Ennis can't even entertain the idea of a life with Jack. Jack can see what a partnership they would have.
Yes i agree with you that jack is ahead of his time he was willing to share ennis with the world .
something i dont think a lot of people would of done in their position back in 63.
I think jack just looked around ennis,s place when they met up after 4 years and saw for himself the apartment wasnt much and his beat up old truck ,that things perhaps wernt that good.
Also one major thing to bring jack to this conclusion would surely be how ennis couldnt wait to be with him
jack alredy knowing they would spend the night togther by ennis saying probaly wont get back tonite we get to drinking and talking and all.
ennis wasnt much of a talker so i dont think he told jack much.
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I have always thought that this question is a little,or not so little,ambivalent one;on one side,Jack is implying that this was not "life"-in the sense of a "normally" loving life with the one he loved-because Ennis could really love Alma the way a husband loves his wife,the person he has chosen to live his life with.Somehow,he's saying that he knows,perhaps better than Ennis himself,that his true love isn't Alma,but Jack; and that the image of a perfect life only could be fulfilled with him in Ennis soul...
But,on the other side,I've always found a certain touch of selfishness too in the implication that living with him was a real wonderful life for Ennis; letting aside sentimental aspects,he knew for sure,even then,that life would be hard for both of them.Not only for the fears and doubts they must face to,the struggle they should have day after day for their love before society; but also life would be hard because no one of them was prepared enough as to live a life without working,economical and social problems.So,the look of a paradise in Earth wasn't so perfect as we can deduce from Jack's question; what's your opinion about this?.
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I think it was more of Jack knowing how it was to be married with a child and knowing that's not the life for him; that the "norm" isn't enough to sustain him. And him more projecting that onto Ennis. I mean, if he was unsure if Ennis still cared about him, that reunion kiss and motel stay sure cleared things up. ;) I think it was just his way of asking "How can you stay with her when this is clearly who you are? When this is what makes you happy?" Something to that effect. Or maybe How is that any kind of life when you're lying, mosty to yourself and can't be who you really are?
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Revisiting this topic after some time, I now see the "life" that Jack referred to as a life without pretense. I meant he implied an honest life, and Ennis's response and defense of Alma would seem to indicate that in his yes, the dishonesty cannot be laid on Alma's feet.
Nonetheless, they didn't realize that Alma did know or start to know. Therefore, she was as guilty of dishonesty and pretense as both of them...
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Revisiting this topic after some time, I now see the "life" that Jack referred to as a life without pretense. I meant he implied an honest life, and Ennis's response and defense of Alma would seem to indicate that in his yes, the dishonesty cannot be laid on Alma's feet.
Nonetheless, they didn't realize that Alma did know or start to know. Therefore, she was as guilty of dishonesty and pretense as both of them...
To live an honest life, I've always thought it laid at Ennis's feet, which Alma was caught in the wake, it was up to Ennis and Ennis only to come clean. Jack always lived an honest life, and in the end, Ennis had to honor it.
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Jack also tied his living an honest life with a life with Ennis. I am sure that this is partly why he resented the marriage with Alma. It somehow impeded not only his own life, but Ennis's as well. Jack was probably correct in thinking that the marriage was a sham -- but he must have also realized that Ennis's love for his daughters was genuine, even though he used it as a smokescreen to hide from himself...
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I don't feel any one of them were truly being honest with themselves. Jack and Alma can be seen as *enablers* of Ennis's dishonesty with himself. Alma continues to stay with him , fullfilling her "wifely duties" knowing all along that Ennis is not fully committed to her, while Jack continues to pursue Ennis hoping that someday Ennis will fully commit to him. Meanwhile all are living halflives, while telling themselves their own feelings , in the end will be sufficient to seal the deal. The mistaken idea that if * if I show my love for him enough* that that somehow will cause Ennis to drop all his fears, anxieties and commit his love to either one is for nil. Imo , even if Jack and Alma confronted each other over Ennis and fight all day,, it's still Ennis who has to make the choice. MG is right in the sense that the ball is always in Enni's court. It is he and he alone who holds the cards to move this thing in one direction or the other. MHO.
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I sometimes sympathize with Alma, in that I think Ennis made her dishonest. The fact that he refused to force the issue of Jack in their marriage and his wanting some kind of silent compromise forced Alma to do the same, if only for the sake of the marriage that she certainly treasured before the breaking of trust. I think that she was almost reasy to confront Ennis about all this -- witness her insistence that Jack have some cofee, or her assumption that she goes out with them even after she sees them kiss. It is as if Alma wanted everything to break out, but Ennis made sure that the 2 worlds remained apart...