Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: myprivatejack on Aug 02, 2007, 04:28 AM
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First of all,excuse me,manhattangirl,for having stolen your topic,but for me this new has more meaning than ask ourselves why people felt attracted to Jack(it´s only my own opinion, don´t misunderstand me,please).We have Jack,Alma and Cassie loving Ennis;in the first case, only death could destroy this love.Alma also loved him during years (because I really think for her reaction when she confesses she know he has a male lover that she was still in love),beyond the routine and the easiness of having a man by your side.And Cassie felt attracted to him inmediately-a good-looking ,lonely,perhaps a little misterious guy...-,but fell for enough to think in a life by his side.The three of them loved,wanted and needed him,everyone of them in their own way,why?.
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Believe me, I take no offense. Alma indeed had Ennis first, she loved him, wanted to marry him, and have his kids. Preparing to have a traditional life with him. Did he love her? I mean really loved, and wanted her? I have my doubts, marrying Alma was something that made sense, to live a life like everyone else.
The key answer to me, is that he was a virgin when he met Jack. I really don't think it was propriety, or any religious belief, that kept him if not being sexual if not with Alma, but with any other woman. Why was this? And why with Jack did his guard come down and admit to him that he hadn't experience sex, why with Jack did he have the need to be closer to him than any one else in his life so far? And then give himself to Jack, or take Jack that first night in the tent?
To me Jack was able reach Ennis in a way no else could, and Ennis was face for the first time a part of himself, he didn't know existed.
Cassie was drawn to Ennis he was alone, attractive to her and she went for it, how could she know who he really was. By this time Ennis belonged to Jack, completely she didn't have a chance.
Ennis had the ability to keep his feeling in check, but not for long because sooner or later, in one way or another, you'll find out Ennis may see you, but not really, Jack was with him every waking minute in his mind and his heart, and there was no room for anyone else.
IMO.
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Thanks,manhattangirl.I also have my doubts about a REAL love from Ennis to Alma,after all is what people expected from him to do...If he hasn´t got sex with any other woman,not even a "professional"as it was usual in 1963,perhaps was because something inside him didn´t drive him to really feel like women;the same "something "that made him confess Jack he has not previous sexual experience(well,at this moment I think that Ennis was already inciting or,at least,flirting with Jack).
Perhaps he had inside some hidden tendences that he didn´t arrive to understand and less admit,and that he didn´t either several years after,for Jack´s disgrace.Of course,his friend knew how to come this tendences out from him, as well as a greater dosis of self-confidence,sociability(?,at least with him)and other feelings that,as you say,he didn´t know existed.Hence his falling in love for Jack.
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Thanks,manhattangirl.I also have my doubts about a REAL love from Ennis to Alma,after all is what people expected from him to do...If he hasn´t got sex with any other woman,not even a "professional"as it was usual in 1963,perhaps was because something inside him didn´t drive him to really feel like women;the same "something "that made him confess Jack he has not previous sexual experience(well,at this moment I think that Ennis was already inciting or,at least,flirting with Jack).
Perhaps he had inside some hidden tendences that he didn´t arrive to understand and less admit,and that he didn´t either several years after,for Jack´s disgrace.Of course,his friend knew how to come this tendences out from him, as well as a greater dosis of self-confidence,sociability(?,at least with him)and other feelings that,as you say,he didn´t know existed.Hence his falling in love for Jack.
This is the thing about Ennis: he really didn't know himself. It was through Jack that he started realizing who he was. This is Ennis's strength as well as weakness: he was still at a point of embarkation, rather than that of termination. I think this was part of what attracted Jack to him. Ennis gave Jack a sense of adventure -- of an untouched wilderness waiting to be discovered by those brave enough to venture into it.
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. . . Ennis gave Jack a sense of adventure -- of an untouched wilderness waiting to be discovered by those brave enough to venture into it.
I think this is pretty close to it tpe. I might say WILDNESS instead of wilderness, but it's almost the same. Ennis to me is a lot like the animals he so much loves to be around. Horses and untamed creatures as well (maybe even coyotes). Independent, willing (sometimes even likes) to be around other humans, but its not necessary. Sly, cautious and wary of others (though humans call it paranoid) wondering what they're up too, not real comfortable in their presence except for the one or two that he really loves and wants to become a mate with. I think Ledger was really able to display this animal characteristic with incredible deftness so you barely realize it but it's there underlying Ennis's speech, his movements, facial expressions and thoughts. It comes across to me as being incredibly vital and full of strength, but with this wonderfully soft inner human core we see when he cries. A really powerful, and attractive, mixture to men and women. Just my HO.
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I think this is pretty close to it tpe. I might say WILDNESS instead of wilderness, but it's almost the same. Ennis to me is a lot like the animals he so much loves to be around. Horses and untamed creatures as well (maybe even coyotes). Independent, willing (sometimes even likes) to be around other humans, but its not necessary. Sly, cautious and wary of others (though humans call it paranoid) wondering what they're up too, not real comfortable in their presence except for the one or two that he really loves and wants to become a mate with. I think Ledger was really able to display this animal characteristic with incredible deftness so you barely realize it but it's there underlying Ennis's speech, his movements, facial expressions and thoughts. It comes across to me as being incredibly vital and full of strength, but with this wonderfully soft inner human core we see when he cries. A really powerful mixture. Just my HO.
Yes, he does remind you of a wild horse that needs to be broken, no? This is why I had thought that Jack's mare on BBM was a symbol for Ennis. Jack wanted to "master" him from the very start. He was attracted to the wildness, and did not think of it as a deterrent.
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Great posts from every one here on a great topic! Thanks myprivatejack.
Ennis is a very private person which makes him seem mysterious, and quirky. This is evident in the beginning outside Aguirre's trailer. Only peeked at Jack when Jack was'nt looking, could'nt meet his eyes ,though he had to feel Jack's eyes on him. Yes, he is the shy type.
Has a plan to work the summer and save for a home for his lady and future family. Alma and the girls. I feel he had all good intentions toward her and promised to marry her. It's what men did in those days and in his culture he was a gentleman. She saw him steady and strong. Could grow in love with him.
The fact that Ennis was a virgin also plays into his common sensible manner. He was an old-fashioned good ol country cowboy. Though naive, He was playing by all the rules. by all the rules including the No Sex Till Marriage Rule with Alma. Brought up strict and taught not to buck tradition. Then he met Jack.....
This threw Ennis, an unexpected truth Jack was to him. All was suddenly out of character , whatever this thing was. He tried to fight it, could'nt. Denied it , Could'nt. Understand it? hell no. Jack had him, heart and soul, imo that's what he knew. Ennis could think it , even act on it but it was so hard to say it He loved Jack Twist.Why? He feared it. Forbidden.
Here is the irony of the whole thing . The key, in my opinion about Ennis is this: He'd been taught that the very thing he needed the most during his relationship with Jack, is the same thing that was stipped away when he saw Earl . The freedom to embrace love as he felt it and not suffer for it., concerning his sexuality. To be what he was before he seen it . An innocent kid with freedom of thought.
He had two very traumatizing experiences as a kid. I. The death of his parents, 2. Earl and Ray. These two instances in his childhood Imo shaped who ,and what Ennis became as an adult. Scared child, scared adult. Did'nt have no therapists or child phycologists diagnosing the damage. He was on his own . When he met and fell in love with Jack, we saw a caring, giving but vulnerable young man. Never known anyone like Jack before. Taught him lots and did'nt hold back. Ennis had great respect for Jack, just as a person I feel.
It was Jack to whom he chose to reveal the story of Earl and Ray, A very personal thing for Ennis. two gay cowboys who dared to break tradition and live together, but were ostricized in the town and eventually tortured and killed. Well Ennis's dad takes him and his brother on a a little show and tell outing. I think it goes to the heart of why he would'nt commit. He wanted Jack to hear what so deeply affects him, and needed so much that little brush on the cheek Jack gave him. At that moment He saw Jack as being a huge part of his life, he needed him in it. Aint no reins on these feelings he'd tried to fight, he knew it. This one relationship with Jack.
There he sees what happens if you go against the rules. Very bad things will happen to you. Ennis never forgot that lesson. He'd been thorougly convinced. :( :c)Talk about a ghost under the bed!
I feel this scared him ,and scarred him for life...But he loves Jack... at 19, finds himself in love with another man. It's passoinate, Really, really likes the feel of loving him , wants him, and the battle deep inside begins. Sends Jack away in the divorce scene in guilt and shame. Just was'nt ready. Jack did'nt allow the usaul " go off and mull it over" period Ennis seems to need when something effects him deeply. He just showed up.
Knew he was hurting Jack, but the fear was there as he sent this sweet surprise away. Jack simply wants him to live with him post-Alma, hence, the fear returns, Fear for himself and most of all ,for Jack, his friend,partner, and lover.
If anything happened to Jack because of their exposure, Ennis would no doubt feel responsible for it. Due to the tragedies of death he saw as a kid, so comes death to Jack or himself if they live free like Jack wanted. Like Earl and Ray did. Up until the point he found the shirts, love was not enough, afterwards, love was everything 'against anyone.... A tragic lesson learned.
Was there alternatives to Ennis's thinkng? Certainly , we have our opinions and passions, this is mine. :t)
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Great post,aintfoolin¡without rejecting all the others,all splendids¡.Yes, I´ve always thought that Ennis fell for Jack because it was irremediable;he had a very rough childhood and this made him to close inside himself.Only Jack was able to made him go out from his taciturnity,at the same time that give him warmth,affection,sex and all what he needed.We all know that all this wasn´t strong enough to beat these incredible fears,almost bordering upon paranoia,but served to have less hidden these tendences we spoke before and that I think was one of the causes he was a virgin until finding Jack(of course,one of the others could be that he always went "when the river flows",doing what was expected to him if he didn t want to be punished as Earl and Ray...).Nevertheless,what I would still like to know is what was the reason that made Jack and Alma be in love with Ennis for so many years.
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I have forgotten to say that AP explained that Heath was as she had imagined Ennis personage,so the question of the sexual attraction can be present in same way;but he was not the kind of person who can attract people in a more global sense,for his kindness,his tenderness or his sociability,as happens with Jack contrarily.He was rather the kind who can move people away,this is the truth...
So, letting aside this flirting of the first time they met,that makes us think it was "love at first sight" on the part of Jack,what did he see in Ennis to be in love with him in spite of himself.
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I think it is Ennis's indifference that attracted Alma, Jack and Cassie. Some people really like it when they are rebuffed, or when they have to work to get someone's attention. Personally, I think that is due to a lack of self-respect. 1. Alma is just a little country girl who doesn't know any better. She sees Ennis as a big, handsome guy, a good ol' country boy who appreciates family since he lost his young, a man who she can grow old with and die with. She never imagined that he had another love somewhere until she saw the reunion kiss. Then, she didn't imagine that she could have fought for Ennis and won-- she knew in her heart that she wasn't going to win. 2. Jack loved Ennis, but he had to work to get ENnis to talk to him and to open up to him. He had to take the initiative in the physical area (FNIT). Ennis's attention didn't come easily. If Jack had been more self-assured, he wouldn't have taken ENnis's refusals to live together so easily for so long. He would have pushed Ennis into some sort of action after the divorce. But, at heart, Jack wasn't sure Ennis would have chosen him. 3. Cassie had to ask Ennis to dance, had to ask for a footrub, probably had to initiate sex between them. When Ennis hid from her, she tried to find him, but eventually gave up. Again, had she been more self-assured, she would have found ENnis, shown up where he worked, grabbed him by the shirt collar and read him the riot act. But, here again, Cassie didn't really think she deserved better than she got.
At least, that's how I see it. (Also, just an aside: I don't believe Ennis was a virgin the FNIT. Just because he had told Jack he hadn't had the opportunity to be a sinner, doesn't, to me, mean he hadn't had sex before. I just think regular, male/female sex to a nineteen year old boy wasn't a sin -- did not a sinner make. It was just natural. I don't think he would have caught on to Jack's meaning so fast the FNIT if he had been an innocent. Just mho.)
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Great post,lamusicaˇBut tell me: why do you think Jack wasn´t sure Ennis would have choosen him?Do you say it because he wasn´t able to overcome his fears?Or because do you think that Ennis loved Jack,really loved him,but he was not in love with him?It´s only a question.
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Ennis life was built around Jack, knowingly or unknowingly. His protectiveness of Jack, may have look like like many things. Ennis needed Jack, and loved him. But needed in his own way to keep both of them safe.
When Ennis at the end of the film, put the postcard of Brokeback next to the shirts. That's was their life, their world, and the only place he knew they were and alway would be safe. Jack was right when he said all they had was Brokeback, and everything was built on that.
When it came to Jack Ennis knew exactly how he felt. Jack at times didn't understand it. IMO
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I have forgotten to say that AP explained that Heath was as she had imagined Ennis personage,so the question of the sexual attraction can be present in same way;but he was not the kind of person who can attract people in a more global sense,for his kindness,his tenderness or his sociability,as happens with Jack contrarily.He was rather the kind who can move people away,this is the truth...
So, letting aside this flirting of the first time they met,that makes us think it was "love at first sight" on the part of Jack,what did he see in Ennis to be in love with him in spite of himself.
I agree. For Ennis, it was a love in spite of himself. He was always a man battling his own psyche.
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I think it is Ennis's indifference that attracted Alma, Jack and Cassie. Some people really like it when they are rebuffed, or when they have to work to get someone's attention. Personally, I think that is due to a lack of self-respect. 1. Alma is just a little country girl who doesn't know any better. She sees Ennis as a big, handsome guy, a good ol' country boy who appreciates family since he lost his young, a man who she can grow old with and die with. She never imagined that he had another love somewhere until she saw the reunion kiss. Then, she didn't imagine that she could have fought for Ennis and won-- she knew in her heart that she wasn't going to win. 2. Jack loved Ennis, but he had to work to get ENnis to talk to him and to open up to him. He had to take the initiative in the physical area (FNIT). Ennis's attention didn't come easily. If Jack had been more self-assured, he wouldn't have taken ENnis's refusals to live together so easily for so long. He would have pushed Ennis into some sort of action after the divorce. But, at heart, Jack wasn't sure Ennis would have chosen him. 3. Cassie had to ask Ennis to dance, had to ask for a footrub, probably had to initiate sex between them. When Ennis hid from her, she tried to find him, but eventually gave up. Again, had she been more self-assured, she would have found ENnis, shown up where he worked, grabbed him by the shirt collar and read him the riot act. But, here again, Cassie didn't really think she deserved better than she got.
At least, that's how I see it. (Also, just an aside: I don't believe Ennis was a virgin the FNIT. Just because he had told Jack he hadn't had the opportunity to be a sinner, doesn't, to me, mean he hadn't had sex before. I just think regular, male/female sex to a nineteen year old boy wasn't a sin -- did not a sinner make. It was just natural. I don't think he would have caught on to Jack's meaning so fast the FNIT if he had been an innocent. Just mho.)
What an interesting point fo view! I guess it is also related to the view that they love Ennis for his projection of loneliness -- the need to be loved. Some people are attracted to people precisely because these people seem to call out to be nurtured.
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I think it is Ennis's indifference that attracted Alma, Jack and Cassie. Some people really like it when they are rebuffed, or when they have to work to get someone's attention. Personally, I think that is due to a lack of self-respect. 1. Alma is just a little country girl who doesn't know any better. She sees Ennis as a big, handsome guy, a good ol' country boy who appreciates family since he lost his young, a man who she can grow old with and die with. She never imagined that he had another love somewhere until she saw the reunion kiss. Then, she didn't imagine that she could have fought for Ennis and won-- she knew in her heart that she wasn't going to win. 2. Jack loved Ennis, but he had to work to get ENnis to talk to him and to open up to him. He had to take the initiative in the physical area (FNIT). Ennis's attention didn't come easily. If Jack had been more self-assured, he wouldn't have taken ENnis's refusals to live together so easily for so long. He would have pushed Ennis into some sort of action after the divorce. But, at heart, Jack wasn't sure Ennis would have chosen him. 3. Cassie had to ask Ennis to dance, had to ask for a footrub, probably had to initiate sex between them. When Ennis hid from her, she tried to find him, but eventually gave up. Again, had she been more self-assured, she would have found ENnis, shown up where he worked, grabbed him by the shirt collar and read him the riot act. But, here again, Cassie didn't really think she deserved better than she got.
At least, that's how I see it. (Also, just an aside: I don't believe Ennis was a virgin the FNIT. Just because he had told Jack he hadn't had the opportunity to be a sinner, doesn't, to me, mean he hadn't had sex before. I just think regular, male/female sex to a nineteen year old boy wasn't a sin -- did not a sinner make. It was just natural. I don't think he would have caught on to Jack's meaning so fast the FNIT if he had been an innocent. Just mho.)
I don't think Ennis was lookin for a relationship with any woman or man that night, unless that man was Jack Twist, the night when he met Cassie, but Cassie had probably been checkin Ennis out ever since he entered the bar. Ennis had ,not too long ago went through a divorce from Alma,. Cassie wanted a husband, Ennis was'nt the "marrying kind ", and she was being very sexually agressive with him from the start. When he got up to leave the bar, she took the opportunity to lead him onto the dance floor where she was very seductive. As far as I know she is the first relationship Ennis has since Alma... but by this time Ennis is in love with Jack and knows it. Did'nt want no one else or the drama this relationhip would enventually become though he did "put the blocks" to her at least once.
Maybe it's just me , but footrubs/massages within the first ten minutes of meeting seems very .very bold of her to ask. I mean, it's a very personal thing to ask some one to do . Am I wrong here? She was getting too close for comfort for Ennis so he let her know in clear terms that it was over. It was cold but effective. Even she , a beautiful, desirable woman could not come between him and the love he had for Jack. He chose Jack over her as he did Alma in his reasoning.
About the business of Ennis bein a virgin? I just think Jack found Ennis sexually atractive and v/v Aside from the idea that Ennis was being unbelievably kind-hearted . giving and caring to him on BBM, the harmonica *teasing *and back and forth banter played off of each other beautifully. Ennis gives of himself to please. he is orderly and precise :) ;)( who kept the better camp?) There is a method and compartment in his mind for the tiniest details with him...to a fault at times. Makes up his mind and sticks to it, Steady, Concedes nothing unless Jack is involved, Jack is hungry, he shoots the elk, Jack won't eat one more bean? he goes for soup, Cat piss tent? he did'nt mind. Crooked tent? "don't look right" fixed it. He aimed to please Jack. uncovered just enough to make his lovers want to uncover more. Also a good lover from the way it's described in the SS. Yum!
He was an attractive mystery to his lovers and that's sexy!. Most challenging. To really get to know him takes some digging. Jack had a bulldozer! He knew him best.
I suppose these are the reasons why they stayed with him,wanted and loved him for so long.
When he stated " You may be a sinner, but I've yet to have the opportunity" It was'nt just what he said, but the way he said it you understand. The look in his eyes and the forthrightness of his manner when he said it was very telling, preceded by a religious talk in which Jack spoke of " boys like us" marching off to hell. To be *wild and worldly " Sneaking in girls' windows at night while daddy sleeps with the shotgun type of sh-t, etc. Can't see Ennis doin this ...but Jack?..well he's a little more "open". A little more crazy. A little more "experienced " .
Boozing it up and chasing potential lovers IMO or engaging in *sinful* actions involving sex of some kind.( in context to Jack;s pentecostal religion.) had not been experienced by Ennis IMO Where would he have that opportunity? and when?
Not saying that he was completely naive about sex, but... He lived with his siblings , no transportation, got thrown out and hitchhiked to find work. Jack on the other hand had traveled the rodeo circuit and was more knowledgable in the art of ...ahem .. the spices of life. :-X or in somes' veiw "sin".
Confessing his virginity and using * opportunity* in the same sentence to me says Ennis wanted, FNIT to happen, gave a blatent clue.... but did'nt expect Jack to actually follow through with this. Nor himself.
Was'nt afraid to show emotion .including crying when something or some one affected him deeply. was handsome, strong , yet gentle and protective. what more could any girl or guy want? Oh yeah ,...a life together with him. Who could blame Jack? Not me. My humble opinions.
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Great post,lamusicaˇBut tell me: why do you think Jack wasn´t sure Ennis would have choosen him?Do you say it because he wasn´t able to overcome his fears?Or because do you think that Ennis loved Jack,really loved him,but he was not in love with him?It´s only a question.
Oh, no! I'm sure ENnis loved and was in love with Jack. It's the fear thing. Also, that Ennis couldn't admit to himself that he preferred a man over a woman. I think the fact that Ennis would never consider the two of them living together said to Jack that Enniss wouldn't commit to him in a public way, such as by living with him; therefore, Ennis love was not complete.
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Maybe it's just me , but footrubs/massages within the first ten minutes of meeting seems very .very bold of her to ask. I mean, it's a very personal thing to ask some one to do . Am I wrong here? She was getting too close for comfort for Ennis so he let her know in clear terms that it was over. It was cold but effective. Even she , a beautiful, desirable woman could not come between him and the love he had for Jack. He chose Jack over her as he did Alma in his reasoning.
He was an attractive mystery to his lovers and that's sexy!. Most challenging. To really get to know him takes some digging. Jack had a bulldozer! He knew him best.
I suppose these are the reasons why they stayed with him,wanted and loved him for so long.
Boozing it up and chasing potential lovers IMO or engaging in *sinful* actions involving sex of some kind.( in context to Jack;s pentecostal religion.) had not been experienced by Ennis IMO Where would he have that opportunity? and when?
While I agree with most of what you say about Ennis, there are a few things I read differently. While Cassie is flirtatious and sexy, I don't think Ennis was ready to dump her for awhile. They must have gone out for a few months. He didn't decide to quit her until he spent some time with Jack. Then, when he came back, Cassie just wasn't anything he was interested in at all anymore, so he made himself scarce. As I said before, I think Cassie gave up too easily if she really wanted him, and I have no doubt she was in love with him.
I think your comment about Ennis being an attractive mystery to his lovers is right on. That's what I meant by my post. He wasn't overly demonstrative to anyone. He left them to do the unpeeling of him. As you said, Jack was the only one who got to the deepest levels of Ennis.
As far as the virginity goes, Ennis knew Alma. He had to meet girls somewhere. I think he and Alma probably fooled around. I just don't see any real evidence that Ennis was virginal. (Just my opinion on this.)
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Wow! Such an insightful thread. I have to come back with some thoughts.
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I don't think Ennis was lookin for a relationship with any woman or man that night, unless that man was Jack Twist, the night when he met Cassie, but Cassie had probably been checkin Ennis out ever since he entered the bar. Ennis had ,not too long ago went through a divorce from Alma,. Cassie wanted a husband, Ennis was'nt the "marrying kind ", and she was being very sexually agressive with him from the start. When he got up to leave the bar, she took the opportunity to lead him onto the dance floor where she was very seductive. As far as I know she is the first relationship Ennis has since Alma... but by this time Ennis is in love with Jack and knows it. Did'nt want no one else or the drama this relationhip would enventually become though he did "put the blocks" to her at least once.
Maybe it's just me , but footrubs/massages within the first ten minutes of meeting seems very .very bold of her to ask. I mean, it's a very personal thing to ask some one to do . Am I wrong here? She was getting too close for comfort for Ennis so he let her know in clear terms that it was over. It was cold but effective. Even she , a beautiful, desirable woman could not come between him and the love he had for Jack. He chose Jack over her as he did Alma in his reasoning.
About the business of Ennis bein a virgin? I just think Jack found Ennis sexually atractive and v/v Aside from the idea that Ennis was being unbelievably kind-hearted . giving and caring to him on BBM, the harmonica *teasing *and back and forth banter played off of each other beautifully. Ennis gives of himself to please. he is orderly and precise :) ;)( who kept the better camp?) There is a method and compartment in his mind for the tiniest details with him...to a fault at times. Makes up his mind and sticks to it, Steady, Concedes nothing unless Jack is involved, Jack is hungry, he shoots the elk, Jack won't eat one more bean? he goes for soup, Cat piss tent? he did'nt mind. Crooked tent? "don't look right" fixed it. He aimed to please Jack. uncovered just enough to make his lovers want to uncover more. Also a good lover from the way it's described in the SS. Yum!
He was an attractive mystery to his lovers and that's sexy!. Most challenging. to really get to know him takes some digging. Jack had a bulldozer! He knew him best.
I suppose these are the reasons why they stayed with him,wanted and loved him for so long.
When he stated " You may be a sinner, but I've yet to have the opportunity" It was'nt just what he said, but the way he said it you understand. The look in his eyes and the forthrightness of his manner when he said it was very telling, preceded by a religious talk in which Jack spoke of " boys like us" marching off to hell. To be *wild and worldly " Sneaking in girls' windows at night while daddy sleeps with the shotgun type of sh-t, etc. Can't see Ennis doin this ...but Jack?..well he's a little more "open". A little more crazy. A little more "experienced " .
Boozing it up and chasing potential lovers IMO or engaging in *sinful* actions involving sex of some kind.( in context to Jack;s pentecostal religion.) had not been experienced by Ennis IMO Where would he have that opportunity? and when?
Not saying that he was completely naive about sex, but... He lived with his siblings , no transportation, got thrown out and hitchhiked to find work. Jack on the other hand had traveled the rodeo circuit and was more knowledgable in the art of ...ahem .. the spices of life. :-X or in somes' veiw "sin".
Confessing his virginity and using * opportunity* in the same sentence to me says Ennis wanted, FNIT to happen, gave a blatent clue.... but did'nt expect Jack to actually follow through with this. Nor himself.
Was'nt afraid to show emotion .including crying when something or some one affected him deeply. was handsome, strong , yet gentle and protective. what more could any girl or guy want? Oh yeah ,...a life together with him. Who could blame Jack? Not me. My humble opinions.
As always fun to read, and beautifully put.
I do agree with you on his virginity, but this is my take on it. Ennis was not a person given into passion, sex was part of marriage, and to have children going along with his conventional view of life. And let's face it Alma was no Cassie. But aside from that was this he true-self, really, did his true sexual self lay dormant? So virginity is not totally out of the question.
Until he meets Jack. Jack was someone he drawn to. And all that aintfoolin points out, is the beginning and completing of that mental intimacy that the two develops. When the physical intimacy happens, with the shock, confusions, pain, pleasure we all experience our first time, and what we seek out again the next time.
Ennis goes back to Jack, and discover this who he wants, what sex is, what making love is, it's with another man, who turned him on, turned him out, with no going back, and this where the trouble starts for him, because it is not suppose to be this way, so he marries Alma. But four years later, he rediscovers what love, sex, and the need for both is. He's not letting go, but can't totally commit to it. Gees, I hope this make sense.
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One thing is for certain....after reading these posts, I understand more why I am drawn towards Ennis. ;)
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One thing is for certain....after reading these posts, I understand more why I am drawn towards Ennis. ;)
Well,I really don´t know if I´m drawn towards Ennis or not,but the certain is that I´m more Jack still...But the certain also is that we´ve been speaking about his self-isolation,his difficulty to make his feelings manifest,a closed,taciturn guy.Now I´m going to speak in favour of him:don´t forget that we see Jack showing his feelings in a constant,almost lineal way,we know he is in love and that´s enough.But the most demonstrative,almost untimely reactions come on his side:he´s who shows his feelings for the separation in Brokeback more then Jack does,he´s who cries in the alley,who takes the iniciative in the kiss reunion
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(Sorry,my PC has boycotted me;it doesn´t like Ennis,as it seems...).I said that his eyes were full with tears in the motel scene when Jack asks him:"whay about you?",who shows a mixture of fear and irritation when Alma discovers he knew who was Jack(because he fears she can say something about this situation,but also he seem to deffend his lover for being attacked for who never had get such a great level of his love).In sum,we see in the movie a lot of situations in which Ennis shell is broken into thousand pieces and he shows himself vulnerable and almost defenceless,and not only in SNT when he surrenders by love to Jack.Somebody said he´s the "bad boy" of the movie,but I don´t think so(although I must confess I felt a great antipathy for him after my first seeing).
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Well,I really don´t know if I´m drawn towards Ennis or not,but the certain is that I´m more Jack still...But the certain also is that we´ve been speaking about his self-isolation,his difficulty to make his feelings manifest,a closed,taciturn guy.Now I´m going to speak in favour of him:don´t forget that we see Jack showing his feelings in a constant,almost lineal way,we know he is in love and that´s enough.But the most demonstrative,almost untimely reactions come on his side:he´s who shows his feelings for the separation in Brokeback more then Jack does,he´s who cries in the alley,who takes the iniciative in the kiss reunion
You're right about Ennis's heart, I think. He had deep emotions inside, and, from time to time, they showed (with the shirts in Jack's room, with the shirts in his trailor, puking near the shed, etc.) But Jack, too, cries when Ennis rebuffs him when he drove to see Ennis after his divorce, when he went on to Mexico, and the look on his fce when Ennis walked away from his truck after they came down from BBM. Ijust thinnk both of these guys were hungry for love. Ennis was not aperson who would ask for anything from anyone, so he certainly didn't know how to ask for love. Jack, on the other hand, knew he would get nothing without asking for it, so he was braver. more out-reaching.
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My feeling is that Ennis, with his love of convention, at least outwardly, had a sort of feeling he'd be less conspicuous, for want of a better word, if married and when Cassie made such a beeline for him it removed from him the necessity of having to do anything active - he could just respond. As soon as her plans for the future and attitude towrds him became more threatening to him, he panicked and ditched her - from what she says without any explanation. Ennis IMO was playing with the idea of marriage again but when confronted by the reality couldn't bring himself to do it.
He drifted into an engagement with Alma, I think because his sister and brother had married, he was on his own, and getting married was what you did. I've never thought him in love with Alma - the honeymoon/snow-scene is just a brief holiday interlude before the responsibilities of a wife and soon a family start to weigh him down. Even in the early stages of their marriage he seems to be merely going through the motions but underneath there's no deep passion - sexual desire maybe.
For Jack I think Ennis is at first no more than an unknown quantity and a possible friend and audience - then he starts to see him in a more rounded way. Isolation and being thrown into constant proximity is important too - but in the end he is just Jack's other half, the piece that fits like two halves of a torn piece of paper.
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....For Jack I think Ennis is at first no more than an unknown quantity and a possible friend and audience - then he starts to see him in a more rounded way. Isolation and being thrown into constant proximity is important too - but in the end he is just Jack's other half, the piece that fits like two halves of a torn piece of paper.
Great post welshwitch! O0
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Great post welshwitch! O0
Ditto to CSC re WW's post.
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Sometimes I wonder if Ennis was truly ever attracted to women. or tried to understand them. The two women Cassie and Alma were two very different people, and Ennis treated both shabbily. Ennis did'nt have a clue how to make them happy and wanted. Was Ennis really , truly capable of loving a woman? Jack outlasted both of them in Ennis's heart. What does this say about Ennis's sexuality.Cassie stated that her friend " even talks" So much for Ennis's courting rituals! Alma seemed tied down and lonley most of the time. His *courting * of Jack on BBM was much more focused than either of the women. How telling is that?...Just a thought.
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Sometimes I wonder if Ennis was truly ever attracted to women. or tried to understand them. The two women Cassie and Alma were two very different people, and Ennis treated both shabbily. Ennis didn't have a clue how to make them happy and wanted. Was Ennis really , truly capable of loving a woman? Jack outlasted both of them in Ennis's heart. What does this say about Ennis's sexuality.Cassie stated that her friend " even talks" So much for Ennis's courting rituals! Alma seemed tied down and lonely most of the time. His *courting * of Jack on BBM was much more focused than either of the women. How telling is that?...Just a thought.
This has been my thought for a while. Was Ennis ever really attractive to women at all? We understood why he married Alma, and what destroy that marriage. Cassie showed us a total disconnect Ennis had with woman, he had no interest whatsoever, in pursing her after his return from Brokeback the last time, and really couldn't understand how she felt. His total mental and emotional state was devoted to Jack, his love was always Jack's, his sexual need and desires were Jack's and Jack's alone.
I would even take a step further. Jack could be more bisexual. Jack's need was not only sexual but also emotional, I could see him developing a strong attachment and love for a woman, if she understood Jack and his needs. And could live contently in relationship built on love and trust. Jack was much more open with his feelings and his desires and never counted out a different type of relationship.
Am I wrong in this assessment?
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Sometimes I wonder if Ennis was truly ever attracted to women. or tried to understand them. The two women Cassie and Alma were two very different people, and Ennis treated both shabbily. Ennis did'nt have a clue how to make them happy and wanted. Was Ennis really , truly capable of loving a woman? Jack outlasted both of them in Ennis's heart. What does this say about Ennis's sexuality.Cassie stated that her friend " even talks" So much for Ennis's courting rituals! Alma seemed tied down and lonley most of the time. His *courting * of Jack on BBM was much more focused than either of the women. How telling is that?...Just a thought.
Good question. One can also ask the same thing about his daughters -- it would seem that he loved them, but was sometimes constrained to limit that love within certain bounds, as in the case when Alma Jr. wanted to move in with him.
But as to Alma and Cassie, one wonders whether Ennis really loved them. Alma, perhaps, duirng the start of the marriage -- Ennis might have thought of himslef as being in love.
But even if he wasn't really in love, it is Ennis's ability to show quiet affection that probably made Alma and Cassie think that it was love. I do think that in the case of Alma, there was affection -- at least during the early years of their marriage.
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....But even if he wasn't really in love, it is Ennis's ability to show quiet affection that probably made Alma and Cassie think that it was love. I do think that in the case of Alma, there was affection -- at least during the early years of their marriage.
This makes sense to me. Ennis and Alma had already planned to be married before Ennis and Jack met. As quiet as Ennis was about his emotions, I believe that he felt something...affection perhaps...for Alma. Considering what I understand about that time period and area culture, I can see why Alma fell in love with Ennis. I would even go so far to say that Ennis's outward personality was not unique for that area. Alma probably saw Ennis as a normal guy who wanted to marry and make a life with her. Had Alma not seen that reunion kiss, it might have been years before she began to wonder what (or who) truly held Ennis's heart.
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"Friend that more word you spoke in the past two weeks", Jack said to Ennis on Brokeback, Ennis replied, "Hell, that more I spoke in a year", That always intrigued me. Why at that moment did Ennis feel secure enough with Jack to speak freely about himself, and why with him? Alma was already in his life, but Jack was someone he felt he can be open with.
We can say that Ennis may have liked Alma, something of affection for her, but Jack was more becoming a person he was drawn to, enough that he began to let his guard down with, and enough that a trust was beginning to form.
And Jack recognized this moment, because like Ennis a connection to someone else, another human being was being made. Something that both men craved and needed and found in each other, apparently no one else up until that moment touched.
So no matter if Alma was there or not there was a part of Ennis that Jack could reach. IMO.
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This makes sense to me. Ennis and Alma had already planned to be married before Ennis and Jack met. As quiet as Ennis was about his emotions, I believe that he felt something...affection perhaps...for Alma. Considering what I understand about that time period and area culture, I can see why Alma fell in love with Ennis. I would even go so far to say that Ennis's outward personality was not unique for that area. Alma probably saw Ennis as a normal guy who wanted to marry and make a life with her. Had Alma not seen that reunion kiss, it might have been years before she began to wonder what (or who) truly held Ennis's heart.
True, I feel the same way. Had Alma not seen the kiss, things may have proceeded in a normal fashion -- after all, Ennis did reject Jack's proposal and kept their fishing trips at a minimum -- all for Alma and the children, I suppose. If you think about it, Ennis and jack really spent very little time with each other. Knowing how they really felt for each other, they must have conceded a lot. Certainly, Ennis understood that Alma was blameless when it came to his predicament.
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"Friend that more word you spoke in the past two weeks", Jack said to Ennis on Brokeback, Ennis replied, "Hell, that more I spoke in a year", That always intrigued me. Why at that moment did Ennis feel secure enough with Jack to speak freely about himself, and why with him? Alma was already in his life, but Jack was someone he felt he can be open with.
We can say that Ennis may have liked Alma, something of affection for her, but Jack was more becoming a person he was drawn to, enough that he began to let his guard down with, and enough that a trust was beginning to form.
And Jack recognized this moment, because like Ennis a connection to someone else, another human being was being made. Something that both men craved and needed and found in each other, apparently no one else up until that moment touched.
So no matter if Alma was there or not there was a part of Ennis that Jack could reach. IMO.
Certainly, it was not in Ennis's nature to hurt anybody -- especially Alma. His gradually being drawn to Jack was something he couldn't control. The Reunion kiss itself was something he felt he had no control of whatsoever. Had Ennis been totally in control of himself, perhaps he would not have been so careless either.
I think that this lack of self-control is also part of that special something about Ennis. There is a vulnerability to Ennis that Jack and Alma certainly appreciated. Perhaps Jack simply understood this on a much deeper level. That was why he was less demanding on Ennis. I think Jack accepted Ennis more who who he really was.
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I agree with this totally tpe. there was a vulnerability to Ennis. Being out of control for Ennis usally has something to do with Jack, otherwise he is meticulously stoic. This is telling. With Alma, he knew how to be a man in a "normal" sense. With Jack he had a whole nuther experience to learn ...to be a whole person. This fact appeals to Ennis,and this allows Jack to delve deeper into him. He knew Ennis's inner secrets. With Alma he is a husband and father only in the traditional sense.
A husband with a good job and children was what she wanted which is understandable, but Ennis was so much more complicated than that.
Ennis was married to a woman yes, but he was finding what true love really was with Jack, a man. Appeared stifled in this marriage until he is packing for a trip to see Jack . only then do we see him energized to the max, and ( shoving clothes into a duffle bag without care, he is only focused on one thing, getting to where Jack was so he could once again realize his true nature ) ...and his true love. Jack was under his skin. At these moments it is all about Jack Twist .
. He really let Jack in so that Jack was able to uncover many more layers of Ennis. The idea that Ennis allowed Jack to do this made him more vulnerable to him than he was to Alma. Jack became more *tuned in* to who Ennis really was. I think both Ennis and Jack loved and embraced the challenge of these new * discoveries* . Alma only knows half, Jack knows the whole of Ennis.
Through Jack, Ennis becomes more aware of his *true nature* and Jack nurtures that part of himself. This is why Ennis needs Jack more than he needs Alma. True love vs affection?... Guess who wins. My take.
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The sad thing is that as long as he can shut down the most powerful urges in his nature, Ennis can cope with being married to Alma. He just follows thepattern set by other people - maybe his parents, who he must remember, or those he works with/lives near. Once doing the husband and father bit he's like a train on the rails - he just keeps going in the laid-down track. With Jack there are no rules, no paradigms - it's unexpected, unpredictable, terra incognita at first. Their long separations mean that it almost stays like this too - every time they meet is the same thrill over again and for Ennis the same struggle between himself as he thinks he should be and himself as he wants to be.
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Great insight into him WW, It's a fascinating sadness that Ennis can resign himself to living with Alma again after these * fishing trips* with Jack, turn his feelings off and on like this. Carry on as if he has a split personality. And for what? because he can't accept the idea that he maybe gay. What a shame and a waste of his precious life and Jack's too.
And yes, every time he meets up with Jack, he relives those moments on BBM with Jack. This half-life robs himself, Alma and Jack of a whole one. Later , this extends to his girls and Cassie. Alma dictates one part of him, Jack the other. It is a fascinating look into how Ennis controls several lives within his hands and the happiness that could be shared in his own. He is the key to unlocking this mess, but can't seem to bring himself to do it. Keeps walking that thin line between love and hate of himself. Confusion is the order of the day in this man's otherwise orderly and stoic existence. I even thinks he wants to very much, but that little voice in his head from his childhood fears stops everyone in their tracks from realizing true happiness. Everyone suffers because of it. So so :(.
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Now you can understand Alma attack when she goes after Ennis on Thanksgivings, because of his denials of who he is, Alma is stuck with a man she may not love, having a child she my not want from him. Ennis marrying her when he did, after that summer with Jack, robbed Alma of a life with a man that she could love and love her, she was young then, the pain of a break-up is better than years of regret.
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I agree with this totally tpe. there was a vulnerability to Ennis. Being out of control for Ennis usally has something to do with Jack, otherwise he is meticulously stoic. This is telling. With Alma, he knew how to be a man in a "normal" sense. With Jack he had a whole nuther experience to learn ...to be a whole person. This fact appeals to Ennis,and this allows Jack to delve deeper into him. He knew Ennis's inner secrets. With Alma he is a husband and father only in the traditional sense.
A husband with a good job and children was what she wanted which is understandable, but Ennis was so much more complicated than that.
Ennis was married to a woman yes, but he was finding what true love really was with Jack, a man. Appeared stifled in this marriage until he is packing for a trip to see Jack . only then do we see him energized to the max, and ( shoving clothes into a duffle bag without care, he is only focused on one thing, getting to where Jack was so he could once again realize his true nature ) ...and his true love. Jack was under his skin. At these moments it is all about Jack Twist .
. He really let Jack in so that Jack was able to uncover many more layers of Ennis. The idea that Ennis allowed Jack to do this made him more vulnerable to him than he was to Alma. Jack became more *tuned in* to who Ennis really was. I think both Ennis and Jack loved and embraced the challenge of these new * discoveries* . Alma only knows half, Jack knows the whole of Ennis.
Through Jack, Ennis becomes more aware of his *true nature* and Jack nurtures that part of himself. This is why Ennis needs Jack more than he needs Alma. True love vs affection?... Guess who wins. My take.
A part of what you said here struck me: that Ennis more often than not felt STIFLED. It seemed that Alma never caught on to this, but Jack certainly did from the very beginning. I think this was part of Jack's attraction to Ennis -- helping him go free from all his pent-up inhibitions. And I think it surprised Ennis and convinced him that Jack was indeed the one.
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Ennis had 4 long years to think. 4 years to ponder and reminisce. He must have done this. He regretted ever letting Jack out of his sights but he was " stuck with what he had". ( the ol' ball and chain syndrome) When he he recieved the postcard from Jack, he must have felt someone above in the heavens had seen his suffering ,smiled down on him. He had resigned himself to this unfulfilling life until Jack came back. This is such a powerful scene when he first laid eyes on Jack again. As if the sun came out again on a cloudy day. As he held his "Jack F-ckin Twist" again, the look on his face was one one of profound relief, gratefulness and pure love. He had done what he thought he was supposed to do ( marrying Alma ) , But this was so much more *real* to him than what he had chosen.
Jack was a personal and emotional reality for him in a way Alma could'nt be. Besides, Jack looked ...ahem.. very , very "tasty" in this scene. please , don't get me started :P, hot damn! , "lil darlin indeed" .. ;) ;) :*( Yum. (t) (t) (t) (t) My thoughts.
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To me, this scene just kept getting better as it played out. When they first embraced, it was almost like long-separated friends, but the hug held--- on and on and on. It seemed as if it were Ennis who squeezed the harder and held on as long as he could until he JUST HAD TO KISS JACK. After looking around to make sure they weren't being watched, Ennis went for it, damned near attacking Jack. This is just soooo sexy. One of my favorite scenes of all. Ennis was just so overcome with happiness, he exuded joy out of every pore in his body. Yum, yum, I say! :8 <^( <^( <^(
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... He had resigned himself to this unfulfilling life until Jack came back. This is such a powerful scene when he first laid eyes on Jack again. As if the sun came out again on a cloudy day. As he held his "Jack F-ckin Twist" again, the look on his face was one one of profound relief, gratefulness and pure love. He had done what he thought he was supposed to do ( marrying Alma ) , But this was so much more *real* to him than what he had chosen.
Jack was a personal and emotional reality for him in a way Alma could'nt be. Besides, Jack looked ...ahem.. very , very "tasty" in this scene. please , don't get me started :P, hot damn! , "lil darlin indeed" .. ;) ;) :*( Yum. (t) (t) (t) (t) My thoughts.
What a great way to describe this scene. I've posted on other threads how much I would love someone to look at me the way Ennis looked at Jack as he pulled up to the apartment. As repressed as Ennis had been up to that point, seeing Jack seemed to set him free in some way.
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What a great way to describe this scene. I've posted on other threads how much I would love someone to look at me the way Ennis looked at Jack as he pulled up to the apartment. As repressed as Ennis had been up to that point, seeing Jack seemed to set him free in some way.
CSC, hi friend. This is exactly what I mean. He could see forever in Jack's eyes and v/v. Ennis seemed to be seeing what he had once lost, his past his present and his future....now found again. Ennis was home sweet home. It was so ubelievably romantic. If some one looked at me like this, I'd melt like wax. ..But I'll know it's real. And last but not least, Jack did'nt expect any of this to happen. He had hope as he "redlined" it from Texas to there, a hope and a wish. but that's about it. This makes it even more romantic and Jack could exhale. Boy, did he.
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Looking at Ennis I tend to believe Alma, Cassie and Jack each saw him as a person who was hard to approach. We never saw his pre-BBM relationship with Alma. I have to assume he didn't have a lot to say to her at first. Jack and Cassie both had to initiate conversation and dig up what social skills Ennis possessed. Once Ennis let his guard down, they could all see that there was a lovable person under Ennis's exterior. All three characters fell for him...and hard. In the end it was Jack who gained a complete grip on Ennis's heart.
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Looking at Ennis I tend to believe Alma, Cassie and Jack each saw him as a person who was hard to approach. We never saw his pre-BBM relationship with Alma. I have to assume he didn't have a lot to say to her at first. Jack and Cassie both had to initiate conversation and dig up what social skills Ennis possessed. Once Ennis let his guard down, they could all see that there was a lovable person under Ennis's exterior. All three characters fell for him...and hard. In the end it was Jack who gained a complete grip on Ennis's heart.
You're are so right. Ennis was indeed a lovable person, but it was Jack who was able to touch Ennis real being. Ennis drawn to Jack, and eventually falling in love with him could never get over the idea that another man was making him feel this things, and what his father taught him about Earl was happening to him.
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I see him as a study in masculinity, but with a soft, quiet vulnerability to him. I agree , all three lovers were attracted to this about him. Two were women, but it was Jack to whom he related the most. He is the one who brought out the most in Ennis, including a part of him that made him a complete person inside. Secretly he had love for and the need for a man. One man. Jack. He tried to deny it yes, but this was too real and too strong to for him to resist. Jack was a part of him and he knew it all to good and well. <^( <^( :c) MO.
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aintfoolin, I like your description of Ennis as he was seen by Alma, Cassie, and Jack. You're right...in the end it was Jack who brought the most out of him. My heart does go out to Alma and Cassie. They certainly wanted to bring out more of Ennis than what they received. Unfortunately for them, they were not able to fight for Ennis on even ground. I believe Alma knew why she could not win this one. Cassie didn't appear to have have a clue. All she knew was that Ennis couldn't give his heart to her. :\'(
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Jack was Ennis' match in every way. Ennis made him feel totally alive. He could draw out of him emotions he had never shown or expressed to any one ever before. That is why Jack loved him so. Alma saw Ennis as the the one to share a traditional marriage with. She loved him because he represented security and a future. Little did she realize though, she only was his cover. At first he was her ticket to to her freedom from her way of life at her family home. Later she saw him more or less as a meal ticket, particularly after seeing the reunuion kiss with Jack at the bottom of the steps. and finally as a burden to finally be shucked off in divorce court, after her love for him died. Cassie poor girl loved him because he was aloof to her and a challenge because he wasn't overwhelmingly attracted to her whiles or feminity and he looked pretty good in a pair of well worn jeans
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For Ennis to be with Cassie, would Ennis have to go against who he really was? That's why he withdrew from her so suddenly.
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You're are so right. Ennis was indeed a lovable person, but it was Jack who was able to touch Ennis real being. Ennis drawn to Jack, and eventually falling in love with him could never get over the idea that another man was making him feel this things, and what his father taught him about Earl was happening to him.
It would seem that Alma and Cassie did remain ignorant about a deeper part of Ennis's personailty -- a part that perhaps Ennis himself was only vaguely aware of prior to meeting Jack.
I think this part of Ennis's personality was essential for understanding him, and I think this knowledge helped Jack a great deal. It certainly allowed Jack to see through Ennis's reserve and see him for who he really was.
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Jack was Ennis' match in every way. Ennis made him feel totally alive. He could draw out of him emotions he had never shown or expressed to any one ever before. That is why Jack loved him so. Alma saw Ennis as the the one to share a traditional marriage with. She loved him because he represented security and a future. Little did she realize though, she only was his cover. At first he was her ticket to to her freedom from her way of life at her family home. Later she saw him more or less as a meal ticket, particularly after seeing the reunuion kiss with Jack at the bottom of the steps. and finally as a burden to finally be shucked off in divorce court, after her love for him died. Cassie poor girl loved him because he was aloof to her and a challenge because he wasn't overwhelmingly attracted to her whiles or feminity and he looked pretty good in a pair of well worn jeans
Ennis's aloofness must have been part of Ennis's appeal to Cassie, IMO. Cassie was certainly attracted to Ennis, and you are perhaps right to say that she also viewed him as a challenge.
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It would seem that Alma and Cassie did remain ignorant about a deeper part of Ennis's personailty -- a part that perhaps Ennis himself was only vaguely aware of prior to meeting Jack.
I think this part of Ennis's personality was essential for understanding him, and I think this knowledge helped Jack a great deal. It certainly allowed Jack to see through Ennis's reserve and see him for who he really was.
I agree. They never knew the "other" Ennis , the one that Jack knew. He kept this part of himself well hidden from the women in his life. His paranoia was for nil imo, I mean ,look at him, who would think just by looking at him that he was in any way attracted to another man? He is the epitomy of what is thoght of generally by society as the total midwestern masculine cowboy. He worried too much.
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For Ennis to be with Cassie, would Ennis have to go against who he really was? That's why he withdrew from her so suddenly.
I think Ennis just got tired of Cassie. She didn't do it for him. As he told Jack, she had dreams, and Ennis didn't seem to share them. I think he saw another marriage like his marriage to Alma in the future if he stuck with Cassie, so he dropped her. I'm not sure he would have opted to be so cold about dumping her, but he just came back from seeing Jack, so his emotions were in a tumult. he really didn't care about anybody but Jack at that point. MHO.
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I think Ennis just got tired of Cassie. She didn't do it for him. As he told Jack, she had dreams, and Ennis didn't seem to share them. I think he saw another marriage like his marriage to Alma in the future if he stuck with Cassie, so he dropped her. I'm not sure he would have opted to be so cold about dumping her, but he just came back from seeing Jack, so his emotions were in a tumult. he really didn't care about anybody but Jack at that point. MHO.
Was he smart enough to see that this was going to be a repeat of the mistake he'd made marrying Alma do you think? (at the time by the campfire when he said was putting the blocks to her ) Or was that beyond Ennis's capabilities - he was getting tired of her but didn't figure out why? He just sounded so bored with it when he spoke to Jack about her. This seemed quite telling to me - quite deliberate. Was he trying to communicate to Jack that he was struggling in yet another relationship with a woman?
In terms of 'what was it about Ennis', was Ennis's inability to openly convey his feelings an endearing characteristic to Jack - or maybe a challenge to Jack to tease them out - as he had done on Brokeback? Ennis (and Jack) became less and less open with each other over time though, perhaps well before the final confrontation Jack knew he'd never get Ennis to be as open as he once was with him 19 years ago and at the reunion.
Rambling a bit here! And getting annoyed that so much in the way of good times and a sweet life was denied them.
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Was he smart enough to see that this was going to be a repeat of the mistake he'd made marrying Alma do you think? (at the time by the campfire when he said was putting the blocks to her ) Or was that beyond Ennis's capabilities - he was getting tired of her but didn't figure out why? He just sounded so bored with it when he spoke to Jack about her. This seemed quite telling to me - quite deliberate. Was he trying to communicate to Jack that he was struggling in yet another relationship with a woman?
In terms of 'what was it about Ennis', was Ennis's inability to openly convey his feelings an endearing characteristic to Jack - or maybe a challenge to Jack to tease them out - as he had done on Brokeback? Ennis (and Jack) became less and less open with each other over time though, perhaps well before the final confrontation Jack knew he'd never get Ennis to be as open as he once was with him 19 years ago and at the reunion.
Rambling a bit here! And getting annoyed that so much in the way of good times and a sweet life was denied them.
IMO: Jack had Ennis, and Ennis without knowing ended any prospect of being with a woman again. His sexuality, he struggle dealing with it, ended with Cassie, there was no use in fighting who he really was, there was no place in his life for her. You knew this when he talk of her to Jack.
And Jack was there waiting and still loving him. Ennis's fear of living a life with him was there, to openly admit, to actually recognize it even if was only to Jack who he really is was is the one thing he couldn't do.
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I agree. They never knew the "other" Ennis , the one that Jack knew. He kept this part of himself well hidden from the women in his life. His paranoia was for nil imo, I mean ,look at him, who would think just by looking at him that he was in any way attracted to another man? He is the epitomy of what is thoght of generally by society as the total midwestern masculine cowboy. He worried too much.
Well said, aintfoolin.
To ask the question "what is it about Ennis" is to ask the question "what is it about Jack." each is one side of the same coin. What made Ennis so dear to Jack was that Ennis's innermost self lay open to him -- whereas others were kept in the dark. And this was possible only because of who Jack was.
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Well said, aintfoolin.
To ask the question "what is it about Ennis" is to ask the question "what is it about Jack." each is one side of the same coin. What made Ennis so dear to Jack was that Ennis's innermost self lay open to him -- whereas others were kept in the dark. And this was possible only because of who Jack was.
Was he smart enough to see that this was going to be a repeat of the mistake he'd made marrying Alma do you think? (at the time by the campfire when he said was putting the blocks to her ) Or was that beyond Ennis's capabilities - he was getting tired of her but didn't figure out why? He just sounded so bored with it when he spoke to Jack about her. This seemed quite telling to me - quite deliberate. Was he trying to communicate to Jack that he was struggling in yet another relationship with a woman?
In terms of 'what was it about Ennis', was Ennis's inability to openly convey his feelings an endearing characteristic to Jack - or maybe a challenge to Jack to tease them out - as he had done on Brokeback? Ennis (and Jack) became less and less open with each other over time though, perhaps well before the final confrontation Jack knew he'd never get Ennis to be as open as he once was with him 19 years ago and at the reunion.
Rambling a bit here! And getting annoyed that so much in the way of good times and a sweet life was denied them.
How true are both observation. As open Ennis was to Jack, he still held back that part of him that Jack wanted so much. Ennis at the end was too much even for Jack to deal with, but the difference between Jack and the women in Ennis life, the idea of losing Jack bought Ennis to his knees.
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How true are both observation. As open Ennis was to Jack, he still held back that part of him that Jack wanted so much. Ennis at the end was too much even for Jack to deal with, but the difference between Jack and the women in Ennis life, the idea of losing Jack bought Ennis to his knees.
And this is so true. It tantalized Jack as much as it frustrated him. I wonder if the desire for the "unattainable" was also a part of Ennis's mystique, as far as Jack was concerned. It certainly proved the death of him...
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Yes - the mysterious, unattainable side of stoics is attractive, at first, then it wears thin if you can't break through the armour. Because of their lack of time together, Jack never had enough time (never enough), to work on him. With their stop-start relationship, he probably had to start afresh every time they met, so couldn't build on progress from the last meeting. And in the end it drove him to despair.
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Did Jack really think that he could move Ennis eventually? I think so. And yet, he must have relished the challenge, no? Ennis was a challenge for Jack. He was the horse that had to be broken in. The summer of 63 was miraculous for him, I gather. He probably half-expected to fail, but did get Ennis to open up and reciprocate. After that, he probably felt too confident. Alas, tomorrow became never.
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IMO: Confident? I don't know how confident Jack really was as far as Ennis was concern. Especially after Ennis struck him, an unexpected blow that made Jack keep in check and remember this man he was falling in love with had a pressure point.
And Jack taking the his shirt, he wasn't confident, he wanted to hold on to something of his lover. The shirt and Ennis's blood on it was a recognition that this probably all he'll have of him.
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Did Jack really think that he could move Ennis eventually? I think so. And yet, he must have relished the challenge, no? Ennis was a challenge for Jack. He was the horse that had to be broken in. The summer of 63 was miraculous for him, I gather. He probably half-expected to fail, but did get Ennis to open up and reciprocate. After that, he probably felt too confident. Alas, tomorrow became never.
Ennis was a challenge, oh yes. Jack was always trying to fix it rather than stand it. In the end it was more than he could stand that he had failed. However, Ennis referred to their being 'no reins on this one' (this relationship, or this situation), which could have given Jack hope. I mean, it is almost Ennis saying - 'I don't know which direction this is going, I can't control it' - as if there was a chance that either one of them could influence how the relationship would go. Of course though he had just minutes earlier said 'it ain't gonna be that way' (referring to the sweet life cow n calf operation). So maybe not...hmmm
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Ennis was a challenge, oh yes. Jack was always trying to fix it rather than stand it. In the end it was more than he could stand that he had failed. However, Ennis referred to their being 'no reins on this one' (this relationship, or this situation), which could have given Jack hope. I mean, it is almost Ennis saying - 'I don't know which direction this is going, I can't control it' - as if there was a chance that either one of them could influence how the relationship would go. Of course though he had just minutes earlier said 'it ain't gonna be that way' (referring to the sweet life cow n calf operation). So maybe not...hmmm
For all Ennis's stubborness, there was a streak of unpredictability that Jack relished. The meaning of the name "Twist", as revealed by Proulx to Gyllenhaal, certainly speaks eloquently of jack's desire to keep his seat, no matter what the future may bring...
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Was he smart enough to see that this was going to be a repeat of the mistake he'd made marrying Alma do you think? (at the time by the campfire when he said was putting the blocks to her ) Or was that beyond Ennis's capabilities - he was getting tired of her but didn't figure out why? He just sounded so bored with it when he spoke to Jack about her. This seemed quite telling to me - quite deliberate. Was he trying to communicate to Jack that he was struggling in yet another relationship with a woman?
I think Ennis was, as you said, just tired of trying to love women. He failed with Alma -- was failing with Cassie. Only found real happiness with Jack, but still couldn't get up the nerve to commit anything more to Jack than occasional meetings in the mountains. Ennis was worn down and disatisfied, but he couldn't put that into words. He could, however, put it into action by dumping Cassie -- just not responding to her any longer.
the other thing you said that was interesting to me was that Jack and Ennis didn't open up to one another like they did 19 years ago. I think you're right about that, too. Maybe we all do that unconsiously as we grow into a relationship. We think the other person knows and intuits things and so we don't have to say them. We're wrong about that at times, as were our guys. I sometimes think it was the infrequency of their coming together times that made this happen. When you only see someone a few days a few times a year, there's a lot of living you just can't share. It's not like being together on a daily basis where you share everyday happenings as a matter of course. Distance and infrequency of meetings were definite enemies to their relationship, in MHO.
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the other thing you said that was interesting to me was that Jack and Ennis didn't open up to one another like they did 19 years ago. I think you're right about that, too. Maybe we all do that unconsiously as we grow into a relationship. We think the other person knows and intuits things and so we don't have to say them. We're wrong about that at times, as were our guys. I sometimes think it was the infrequency of their coming together times that made this happen. When you only see someone a few days a few times a year, there's a lot of living you just can't share. It's not like being together on a daily basis where you share everyday happenings as a matter of course. Distance and infrequency of meetings were definite enemies to their relationship, in MHO.
Yes I agree lamusca, in the camps they were with each other for weeks, built a real relationship, until that fateful snow arrived early. From then on as you say it was stop / start, never enough time to really get to know each other. If you don't talk about big issues straight away, then the moment is gone. Interestingly Ennis did contact Jack about the divorce, as if he did want share that with him. Jack got the wrong message of course. Here I think Jack missed a trick, he could have been more interested in his lover's anguish at getting a diivorce, but I guess he missed Ennis so much all he could think about was getting back close with him.
Some relationships work well on time apart, avoiding the sort of domesticated familiarity that can breed contempt, and absense makes the heart grow fonder. But to my mind their meetings were too infrequent and short for that to work. You need to gather and maintain some momentum in a relationship, move on, move through stages. If they'd been able to meet 5 or 6 times a year it could have made a difference to the end result.
Getting back to the question, I wonder if whatever it was about Ennis that attracted Jack changed over time in Jack's mind? I think perhaps so - at first he was mainly physically attracted, a bit curious, then he found out Ennis could be fun, and a good friend, and was prepared to make sacrifices for Jack (sleeping in the pup tent etc.) After the mountain though did it really change much, or where they both a bit guilty of building everything on Brokeback? MO.
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I agree totally with these two excellent posts. Alot of opportunity was lost with the infrequent meetings and distance. How could they build a stable relationship this way? When they were up on BBM the consistency allowed them to be there for each other. We know Ennis changed his outward habits, for more cautious ( even paranoid awareness )of Jack and himself, but I think Jack changed too. Ennis did'nt need the sexual gratification as often as Jack, but no one can tell me he did'nt crave Jack at times. Personally I think Ennis did know " how bad it got" for himself as Jack found solace in other sexual adventures , at times, putting himself at risk of hurt, harm and danger. I feel they could have both benefitted from a * half-way meeting *in their times of "need "as well as in their overall relationship. No one really wins , but nobody really looses either.
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Jack was always Ennis's "sign of life". Ennis problems are when he is not with Jack, life was going through the motions until the next time he would be with him. But this Ennis suffered willingly, as if penance for his love and need for Jack. He pledged his life to Jack in a way, his need for Jack was deep in every aspect of their relationship, emotional, mental, sexually. I believe Ennis sexual need for Jack was great, and maybe even greater than that of Jack. Knowing this he was always so careful when he around Jack, he had to keep himself in deep check as far as that goes, when he told Jack "when we're around each and this thing comes over us" That "thing" was him. His need for Jack had to be controlled.
All these conflicting emotions, the need, the wanting, and the control of these feelings, was in order to protect himself and the one he love. How can you tell someone who is so closed in and closed-up that what they feel is OK, when they were taught it was bad. When Ennis said "It's because of you Jack I"m this way", he was "that way" all along, and it never cross his mind he was.
How can you change a person way of thinking?
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Jack was always Ennis's "sign of life". Ennis problems are when he is not with Jack, life was going through the motions until the next time he would be with him. But this Ennis suffered willingly, as if penance for his love and need for Jack. He pledged his life to Jack in a way, his need for Jack was deep in every aspect of their relationship, emotional, mental, sexually. I believe Ennis sexual need for Jack was great, and maybe even greater than that of Jack. Knowing this he was always so careful when he around Jack, he had to keep himself in deep check as far as that goes, when he told Jack "when we're around each and this thing comes over us" That "thing" was him. His need for Jack had to be controlled.
All these conflicting emotions, the need, the wanting, and the control of these feelings, was in order to protect himself and the one he love. How can you tell someone who is so closed in and closed-up that what they feel is OK, when they were taught it was bad. When Ennis said "It's because of you Jack I"m this way", he was "that way" all along, and it never cross his mind he was.
How can you change a person way of thinking?
How interesting that you associate Ennis's suffering with a kind of penance willingly undertaken, because of his love for Jack.
Love and guilt figure so large in the landscape of Ennis's psyche, no? It is as if, for Ennis, one cannot have one without the other...
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There's a saying, isn't there - ' "Take what you like from life" says God, " but pay." '
I think in an inchoate fashion Ennis has more sense of consequences than Jack does.
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Someone once said, To feel guilt, one must know truth. Both knew it. One embraced it, one fought it. Still , through it all, love and truth remained till the bitter end.
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Thnaks WW and aintfoolin.
I sometimes wonder whether Jack was less aware of the consequences. I think he was pretty much aware of it (witness his hasty retreat from the bar after talking with the Rodeo clown), but he took greater risks.
And as aintfoolin implied, both of them knew if through a vision of guilt. But Ennis was probably more mired in self-guilt than Jack was, to be sure.
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Coming back to the question of the changes in their relationship,I think it´s logical,not only because a person is not the same being 20 years-old than 40,but also because in the beginning of any relationship happens what I call "champagne bubbles"-sexually speaking-and after,little by little,the attraction doesn´t vanish,but changes,you know-and more still when they were only 19-.Far from their first youthful and volcanic knocking downs,their relationship was more mature,quieter,but it had the problem of the distance,making a kind of contradiction:on one hand,seeing the one you love once in a while often idealizes this and the relationship;on the other hand,it´s not a strong basis to create a couple that works well enough.I think this was the dichotomy they overcame and that perhaps Ennis understood better than Jack.I don´t know,it´s my opinion.
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One of the things that nags at me is the thought that maybe it's Ennis's very intransigence that keeps Jack involved with him. Supposing Ennis changed, and he and Jack found a place to start that sweet life together. Would Ennis still fascinate Jack after months, or perhaps a year or more, of close proximity and the need to earn a living, perhaps in rather demanding circumstances? I suppose what I'm getting at is the idea that the very infrequency of their meetings keeps the sexual charge going and the lack of the need to get bogged down by routine and mundane considerations is part of the attraction of a long-disatnce relationship.Jack has had more experience of the world than Ennis, has wider horizons - I sometimes wonder if in the end Ennis wouldn't be able to keep up with him.
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That´s the main danger in any relationship,isn´t it?:we idealize it often,too often in some cases,and think that with loving each other everything works by itself. :-*
But more often,unfortunately,the daily routine,the problems that earning a life carries,the struggle between two differents ways of being,break this cotton cloud in which we´ve builded our home...And in the case of our heroes,perhaps the different characters,and,above all,Ennis constants fears had made their living not so "sweet" as we wish and imagine.I agree with you,ww,that the distance kept this idealisation and the sexual need for each other alive;but,as I said in my former post,it also could have been a way to separate them at last,specially when Jack saw that his dream was every time further and further.
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But in contrast to this, there is still that amazing admission that Jack makes, after almost 20 years of their infrequent get-togethers: " The truth is...sometimes I miss you so much..." Yes there are the dangers that familiarity and constant togetherness might pose, but to feel that strongly after all that time and all they had been through together and separately, speaks of an exceptionally strong bond.
And Annie's description of Ennis as "that achingly needy ranch kid".. while he may not be a kid by the end, he is as needy as ever if not more so, and that, I think, is what Jack is really drawn to. As are we.
Their need for each other, conscious (Jack) or supressed (Ennis) is undiminished.
(But I can hear Jack muttering "Damn you Ennis!" under his breath quite a lot...)
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Of course,their need for each other-sexually.affectively and emotionally-was strong enough to endure in some not always easy conditions :^^)
But we were speaking about the endurance or not of their relationship if this life together arrived,and you must admit that the circomstances were not the best to keep on being so sweet...Sometimes,one thing is love somebody beyond yourself and another is beeing able to live with him/her maintaining this charming.Perhaps it´s the difference between being sensible or sensitive-and that worries English students so much...-.I personally have had a 20 years relationship with years without seeing each other,other relationship on the part of me,and so on;our bond is strong,and always will,but I know living with her wouldn´t be so nice,and neither had it been before.
It´s not an obstacle for that we miss and love each other.She´s my private Jack.
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Thanks everyone for the wonderful recent exchanges!
So what is it about Ennis?
Could it be his need to love and be loved? His need to be whole and to make whole?
One can argue that someone like Jack also needed to love as much as be loved; to be made whole as much as make someone else whole.
Perhaps it was because, in a very deep sense, Jack and Ennis are more similar and complementary than we think. In spite of one's fears and the other's dreams, both were drawn to each other because they were both the same as much as both were (complementarily) different.
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tpe,
:\'(
Then again-and please don't shoot the messenger-I have gay friends who have seen the movie more than once, and they didn't really like it, and they think Ennis is a jerk. And certainly there is ample evidence to support this point-of-view throughout the film. (I myself once pondered starting a thread entitled Ennis's Warts, as I have struggled within myself to understand how I could be drawn so strongly to a character with so many behavioral issues.) But it does make sense to me that how one reacts to the character of Ennis may well determine how one reacts to the film.
I think the short story gives more insight into Ennis's thoughts and inner feelings, and so it's harder for me to imagine someone feeling like this after reading the ss.
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Tpe,I always wonder how your posts are similar to what I think ;) ;) In also my opinion,Jack and Ennis were different in characters and reactions,it´s true;but for this same reason,they were complementaries enough as to give one another what they lack in every moment.And for this also they were so close during so many years;because they were the same in that they needed to love and be loved, more than even they believed themselves.The problem was perhaps in the way each one of them showed this need...
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tpe,
:\'(
Then again-and please don't shoot the messenger-I have gay friends who have seen the movie more than once, and they didn't really like it, and they think Ennis is a jerk. And certainly there is ample evidence to support this point-of-view throughout the film. (I myself once pondered starting a thread entitled Ennis's Warts, as I have struggled within myself to understand how I could be drawn so strongly to a character with so many behavioral issues.) But it does make sense to me that how one reacts to the character of Ennis may well determine how one reacts to the film.
I think the short story gives more insight into Ennis's thoughts and inner feelings, and so it's harder for me to imagine someone feeling like this after reading the ss.
proulxfan, the same here. I just posted in another thread a recollection from a gay couple who thought that Ennis's treatment of Alma was devious.
Ennis both repels and attracts us. In a way, it is the same with Jack, no?
I think those very traits that repel us from Ennis add depth to his condition. He's not perfect, as much as Jack is not perfect. That's why we love them, I guess.
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Tpe,I always wonder how your posts are similar to what I think ;) ;) In also my opinion,Jack and Ennis were different in characters and reactions,it´s true;but for this same reason,they were complementaries enough as to give one another what they lack in every moment.And for this also they were so close during so many years;because they were the same in that they needed to love and be loved, more than even they believed themselves.The problem was perhaps in the way each one of them showed this need...
Very well said. They way Ennis showed it bred resentment, even of Jack's part. This was not to say that jack didn't underastand Ennis -- on the contrary, I think he understood Ennis too well. And that's where what appears to be a conundrum arises: that Jack understood Ennis best of all, but it did not shield him from resenting that which he only understood all too well.
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I agree again;need I say it?. :t) The way Ennis showed this need during almost all his life is one of the circumstances that make me wonder:What about Ennis?
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tpe,
:\'(
Then again-and please don't shoot the messenger-I have gay friends who have seen the movie more than once, and they didn't really like it, and they think Ennis is a jerk. And certainly there is ample evidence to support this point-of-view throughout the film. (I myself once pondered starting a thread entitled Ennis's Warts, as I have struggled within myself to understand how I could be drawn so strongly to a character with so many behavioral issues.) But it does make sense to me that how one reacts to the character of Ennis may well determine how one reacts to the film.
I think the short story gives more insight into Ennis's thoughts and inner feelings, and so it's harder for me to imagine someone feeling like this after reading the ss.
I like that idea about Ennis's Warts. He certainly had a lot of them, but don't we all? That is what made Ennis real to me. He wasn't a cookie-cutter cowboy. He wasn't educatied, but he wasn't stupid. He wasn't talkative, but he did his share of thinking. He didn't have people skills, but he still attracted people. He hadn't experienced much love in his childhood, but he knew how to give it to his own children. Always, Ennis has faults --- BUT they are tempered by his desire to be kind to his loved ones (Alma, at the beginning, his kids and Jack). He's not always sucessful with that, but, then again, are our true intentions always fulfilled? I find his warts to be comfortable since I have my own. I can accept his, as I would hope my friends and loved ones accept mine.
Sometimes I just quit asking WHY? I accept that people do what they do because they are trying their best. Now, if there was evidence of meanness in Ennis, I wouldn't feel anything for him. I would have written him off, feeling that he reaped what he had sown. That wasn't the case here. Ennis was not an active man in changing his status quo. He was totally reactive. That's hard to accept, but, if we love the man, we accept those warts, too.
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Excellent post lamusica. I totally agree with this. Jack fell in live with Ennis just as he was . With Jack Ennis not only learned to love but learned how to accept love in return.
He will never win socialite of the year awards, but he is unspoiled ,kind and giving towards those he loves and cares for.
He is complicated, yes but he is readable in a common sense kind of way. Trying to understand and process his love for Jack was a hard joruney for him, but got there eventually, I feel he is a most compelling character. I totally loved him.
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... He is complicated, yes but he is readable in a common sense kind of way. Trying to understand and process his love for Jack was a hard journey for him, but got there eventually, I feel he is a most compelling character. I totally loved him.
Kudos aintfoolin and lamusica. O0 O0 You have both put Ennis into words that I have yet to utter.
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Jack was always Ennis's "sign of life". Ennis problems are when he is not with Jack, life was going through the motions until the next time he would be with him. But this Ennis suffered willingly, as if penance for his love and need for Jack. He pledged his life to Jack in a way, his need for Jack was deep in every aspect of their relationship, emotional, mental, sexually. I believe Ennis sexual need for Jack was great, and maybe even greater than that of Jack. Knowing this he was always so careful when he around Jack, he had to keep himself in deep check as far as that goes, when he told Jack "when we're around each and this thing comes over us" That "thing" was him. His need for Jack had to be controlled.
All these conflicting emotions, the need, the wanting, and the control of these feelings, was in order to protect himself and the one he love. How can you tell someone who is so closed in and closed-up that what they feel is OK, when they were taught it was bad. When Ennis said "It's because of you Jack I"m this way", he was "that way" all along, and it never cross his mind he was.
How can you change a person way of thinking?
I've always believed that as much as Jack needed Ennis, Ennis needed Jack more. These feelings Ennis had for Jack were new to him, but they made him complete as nothing ever had. While apart they both lived a half life, of wanting and lonliness, Ennis more so because he could not shake the guilt and fear of being who he really was. Jack was offering a buffet, but Ennis had learned not to take to much for fear and shame overtook him and caused him to feel undeserving. I believe the will was there with Ennis, but a way was impossible for him to find. Had he been able to get past this one obstacle, Jack would have gotten more than a taste of what Ennis bestowed upon him on BBM. He would have been showered in love and the gentle kindness that Ennis possesed. I think this was a big part of what Jack fell in love with about Ennis. I think Jack saw it once, knew it was within Ennis somewhere and tried every way he knew how to get it back.When he found the shirts, only then did he realize what could have been, what Jack knew all along , that love was all they had, and that was enough. That they only needed each other's permission to be together, no one else's.
My thoughts.
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What was it about Ennis? I am reviving this older thread because I am still on the quest of learning Who Is The Real Ennis Del Mar? This topic best fits what he's all about. It explores him and his relation to others around him, but who was he really? He was sweet, loving and unspoiled on one hand....but...
! A family man certainly. Loved Alma and the girls, but I always get the feeling that he was'nt truly happy in his marriage. His relationship with Alma seemed loving, yes ,but distant.
2. Has Jack on the side, who is becoming increasingly more of a need and craving again after 4 years apart. He did'nt have to answer that postcard, but he did, in fact as gleefully as Ennis got, " You bet" Then in the motel room Jack asks the question " What are we gonna do now? Ennis refers back to above said fam as what he's "stuck with" . The reason he cannot hook up with Jack on a permanant basis after their hopeful reunion.. He feels loyalty to Alma and obligated to the girls. " It ain her fault" He also feels guilt, it's his fault, but what is Jack supposed to think?
He knew what answering the postcard meant. Reviving old feelings long supressed and dormant from he and Jack's past. This says Ennis was concious of his actions. How does this merge with his family life? Was Ennis gonna be content with the best of both worlds? For how long?
Again, what about Jack?
Jack gets hurt after Alma divorces Ennis because he finds his *place* with Ennis has not changed . I feel he was hurt that now, without Alma standing in he way, he still does'nt mean anymore to Ennis than the "side distraction" he's always been. I think Jack sensed that Ennis was not being straight with him. After all it was Ennis's reasoning concerning his family that was the cause of non-comittal to Jack all along. The reason he did'nt push Ennis more after Brokeback. First it's Alma whom he feels obligated to marry setting in motion a series of bad choices and the rejection of a commitment to Jack. Jack presents him with a second chance at a full life in the reunion scene, Ennis accepts him with open arms literally, then rejects Jack again. Contacts Jack announcing the divorce , Jack comes running and Ennis rejects him again. I feel each rejection breaks Jack down a little more.
Giving Jack hope, then rejecting him goes to show again, Ennis was making concious choices, seemingly manuevering this thing in his favor. Maybe what he thought was in both their best interest until....The confrontation in the end where Jack reins in Ennis finally with the mere power of words. When Jack wields this power, Ennis becomes almost powerless. Yeah, Ennis tries to maintain control, but in the face of this control jack had over him, he is left powerless. Jack has broken it down and Ennis has to admit thru his actions that he needs Jack, more than he wants to admit. That it his Jack who actually pulls the strings .Ennis breaks down. Jack sees just how fragile Ennis is by taking away Ennis's means of control. Even then still , it's family that Ennis uses for not meeting Jack in Aug. Jack's heard it all before, the story of his life. This time he does'nt by it blowing Ennis's cover by exposing the issues between them. It was no longer just about Ennis and his needs. It's about Jack's needs too.
The issue for Ennis becomes even more clear, when he finds the shirts diplayed as they were in the closet. Jack never rejected him ,though he rejected Jack over and over. What Jack offered him for 20 years was no longer availiable for him to accept even if he he decided to do so. The opportunity to tell Jack he loved him, despite everything, face to face was forever lost. Who was there for him all thru the picture? Cassie?, Alma? job bosses? kids? nah, it was Jack. I just feel at times that the guilt and shame he felt with Jack did'nt come close to the pain, shame and guilt he felt without him. A devastating realization after the fact.. So who was he really? a wanting, confused , conflicted man? ..or a man who had a sense of arrogant, concious entitlement with means to control Jack's destiny?...I wonder sometimes. Just a rambling observation. :t) :t)
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Well, there's so much I can say about Ennis because I feel I understand him completely since he is so much like me in a lot of ways. But I'll keep it short, because it's late, and I ought to be going to bed by now. First off, the whole reason Ennis is a virgin...yes I do believe that Ennis was really attracted to other guys instead of women, and he had known this about himself for quite some time. However, the reason he was a virgin was not because of that. Ennis was raised very conservatively, with "traditional values", so it's obvious that he thought sex is something that should only be done inside of marriage, therefore, he hadn't had sex with Alma because they weren't married yet. As to why he was engaged to Alma...he was fooling himself into thinking that he could be content with her. Ennis is a young man who knows he's attracted to other men, and of course he's never spoken of it or acted upon it, but he knows if anyone were to ever find out, they would never understand him or accept him, and they might also kill him for it. Therefore, he felt his only option was to marry a woman, and live a "traditional" life, as he was expected to by society. Before he met Jack, Ennis had completely fooled himself into thinking that he really loved Alma, and that he would be happy with her. Of course after he met Jack, that all changed. Ennis realized that he had been lying to himself, and knew he would never be happy with Alma, and that he never truly loved Alma. Jack showed him what true love really is. After that, Ennis knew the only person he could ever love and be happy with was Jack. But of course, he knew society would never accept it, so therefore he had to return to his life with Alma, marry her, and live the life that was expected of him. Yeah, he felt miserable about it, because now he could no longer fool himself, but he felt like there was nothing he could do, for he was society's prisoner. As to why Jack falls in love with Ennis...Ennis is so lovable, and so meant for Jack. Only a person like Jack could bring down the wall Ennis had built around himself. Jack saw that behind that wall, there was a beautiful, sensitive, gentle, caring, kind, and emotional soul. Jack understood Ennis like no one else ever could. The saying, "Still waters run deep," really describes Ennis so truely. He was a person who had deep feelings, emotions, and thoughts, but he was very quiet and appeared stoic because to shield himself from this world. What I realize about Ennis is that he really was a romantic idealist, but thought true love was something he would never find in this life...until Jack came along.
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Well, there's so much I can say about Ennis because I feel I understand him completely since he is so much like me in a lot of ways. But I'll keep it short, because it's late, and I ought to be going to bed by now. First off, the whole reason Ennis is a virgin...yes I do believe that Ennis was really attracted to other guys instead of women, and he had known this about himself for quite some time. However, the reason he was a virgin was not because of that. Ennis was raised very conservatively, with "traditional values", so it's obvious that he thought sex is something that should only be done inside of marriage, therefore, he hadn't had sex with Alma because they weren't married yet. As to why he was engaged to Alma...he was fooling himself into thinking that he could be content with her. Ennis is a young man who knows he's attracted to other men, and of course he's never spoken of it or acted upon it, but he knows if anyone were to ever find out, they would never understand him or accept him, and they might also kill him for it. Therefore, he felt his only option was to marry a woman, and live a "traditional" life, as he was expected to by society. Before he met Jack, Ennis had completely fooled himself into thinking that he really loved Alma, and that he would be happy with her. Of course after he met Jack, that all changed. Ennis realized that he had been lying to himself, and knew he would never be happy with Alma, and that he never truly loved Alma. Jack showed him what true love really is. After that, Ennis knew the only person he could ever love and be happy with was Jack. But of course, he knew society would never accept it, so therefore he had to return to his life with Alma, marry her, and live the life that was expected of him. Yeah, he felt miserable about it, because now he could no longer fool himself, but he felt like there was nothing he could do, for he was society's prisoner. As to why Jack falls in love with Ennis...Ennis is so lovable, and so meant for Jack. Only a person like Jack could bring down the wall Ennis had built around himself. Jack saw that behind that wall, there was a beautiful, sensitive, gentle, caring, kind, and emotional soul. Jack understood Ennis like no one else ever could. The saying, "Still waters run deep," really describes Ennis so truely. He was a person who had deep feelings, emotions, and thoughts, but he was very quiet and appeared stoic because to shield himself from this world. What I realize about Ennis is that he really was a romantic idealist, but thought true love was something he would never find in this life...until Jack came along.
I absolutly agree that Ennis was a virgin. With only "a year a high school" where else is he going to score with anyone. His family was not exactly on any social registry in Sage WY. Somehow he manages to meet someone, Alma. Apparently members of the "fire and brimstone "crowd, I seriously doubt that he was getting anything sexual from her either till after marriage.
Alma was wearing virginal white at the wedding.... She just did'nt strike me as an *experienced* woman.
I agree, that marrying her was something that was expected in his culture. A man grows up and finds a wife. Society says so, so he marrys her, does love her.? I feel to a certain extent. In love with her ...no...How could he? He has no experience with love.
I have said before that Ennis knew he was attracted to other men. It would explain his lonely withdrawl from society and social settings. Perhaps he knew that certain behavior involving the opposite sex would be expected of him , which has always been so prevalent among the young *straight* men. Him feeling basically awkward about himself to begin with did'nt help his social skills. His personally so bashful. Where could he go? Who would understand him? Certainly not his family, Earl and Rich were the joke of the town. He had to keep any feelings toward other men hidden or there would be not so nice consequences paid. He gets engaged, shows the world he's "normal".
When he met Jack, I think it matterd lots to him that Jack *liked * him, because he surely liked Jack. Jack was similar in background and easygoing and just as clueless of the world as he was. Both young men, with little guidance out in the cold, hard world to become men on their own. From this standpoint, Ennis gets an understanding of Jack, right off the bat, his story is similar to Ennis's in many important ways.
The isolated mountain setting was perfect for Ennis if he ever was gonna let these feelings surface. They were both vulnerable but a mutual trust was gained between them first. I feel it was Jack who started to fall first initiating converstion and picking up where he left off in the bar. trying to find "insight" into who Ennis really was. What shaped and molded him into the withdrawn, too quiet type, person Ennis was. Jack having been on the competitve rodeo circuit, must have found Ennis's shy, bashful,manner fresh and different . It's obvious, Ennis feared something. I also feel Jack loved a challenge, After Ennis opens up about his upbringing, he has part of his answer. The qiuet cowboy has alot to say after all. As a friend now he has gained Ennis's trust. I feel this trust of Jack is what allowed his feelings for Jack to grow. Though still confused and conflicted his feelings emerge in the form of the little "favors" he does for Jack. Getting soup, trading jobs, straightening the tent, etc... little subtle things, Ennis starts to feel he and Jack are a unit. A partnership for him at last. Meanwhile I feel Jack was *reading* Ennis very well, but knows Ennis will never make a first move. So he does.
I feel that FNIT was unexpected but very much wanted by Ennis, though it was rough and tumble and awkward, I think Ennis found himself in those moments, then completed the process in SNIT. I feel what Ennis has known for years is allowed to come full bloom on the mountain with Jack. Then came full circle in the reunion scene. It was Jack who only acted the catylist for Ennis's feelings to emerge. I believe there had to be something there repressed and dormant until Borkeback where Jack Twist became both the cause and recipient of Ennis's first real taste of true love. With or without Alma, I don't think he was ever the same again. He was in love with Jack and the whole experience of Brokeback. For him to deny it is to deny who he really is imo. It lasted 20 years and that's proof that who Ennis really was , was who he was all along. I remain facinated with this character of Ennis. He's so intriquing and complex.
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Yeah, it's definitely no surprise that Ennis was a virgin. From his upbringing, it is clear that he wouldn't have had pre-marital sex. He was someone who played by the rules because that's what was expected of him, so of course he was a virgin. As for his attraction to other guys...I believe it was something he knew about himself, but of kept hidden. Ennis knew he was different, that he didn't fit into the society he lived in...but he just had to live the life that was expected of him. When he met Jack, for the first time in his life, someone understood him and he felt free to be who he really was. The wall he'd built around himself came down. Deep down inside, Ennis was a romantic idealist, but he thought he would never actually find true love because his society would never allow him and the circumstances would never be right or he would never meet the right person. And then when he least expected...along came Jack, and true love had arrived and found Ennis. The isolated setting of Brokeback Mountain made it the perfect place for both of them to be free and happy. Had Ennis never met Jack, he would have just lived a discontented life, convincing himself that he loved Alma. After he met Jack, Ennis knew he'd found his one true love, and that was Jack. He knew that he could never fool himself again, but he felt like a prisoner because he had to go back and marry Alma and do what society expected him to. So that's what he did, because he felt like he had no choice, he was scared that he'd end up like Earl if he did what he really wanted to do, if he was really true to himself, and that was to be with Jack. Jack was in a similar situation...although he was less afraid than Ennis. He knew society wouldn't accept him, but he wasn't going to let fear stop him from being with his one true love, Ennis. As to the question of whether or not Jack was a virgin...there's really no evidence that he wasn't. Jack, of course was attracted to other guys, and like Ennis, he had known it for quite some time, but he lived in the same type of society as Ennis, so he too must have kept it hidden. I think the only reason Jack seemed more "experienced" than Ennis, was simply because Jack was a lot more outgoing than Ennis, and didn't have the quiet, introverted personality that Ennis had. I don't really think Jack had had any romantic relationship with anyone before, but him being the outgoing personality, he just initiated it because the wall Ennis had built around himself wasn't going to come down by itself, only someone like Jack, with those particular qualities, and that personality could free Ennis. It's clear to me that they both saw each other, and liked each other from the beginning, and from the beginning knew it was something epic, something true, something deep that neither one had felt before. From the beginning they knew they had found true love. Jack showed Ennis what happiness was, and from then on, Ennis knew that Jack was the only person he needed. That's why Ennis was emotionally distraught and physically sick when they parted ways. Now that he had found his one true love, he didn't know how he was going to go back to the life that was expected of him. He didn't know how he could endure that prison and those chains, after experiencing freedom and happiness with Jack on Brokeback Mountain. He didn't know how he was going to live a single day without Jack, but he felt there was nothing he could do about, so he just had to endure it. Jack felt the same way, but unlike Ennis, Jack believed he could do something about it, that he didn't have to endure it, that he could be with Ennis no matter what, because their love was so true and strong that they would find a way against all odds that society stacked up against them. I wish they had never parted ways and they had remained together since that first summer on Brokeback Mountain...it would have been both Ennis' and Jack's dream come true. If society had been different, Ennis wouldn't have been afraid. It would have been heaven for them if society hadn't been cruel and ignorant, they would have always been together, and been free and happy. No chains, no suffering, no regrets, no sorrow.
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What was it about Ennis? I am reviving this older thread because I am still on the quest of learning Who Is The Real Ennis Del Mar? This topic best fits what he's all about. It explores him and his relation to others around him, but who was he really? He was sweet, loving and unspoiled on one hand....but...
! A family man certainly. Loved Alma and the girls, but I always get the feeling that he was'nt truly happy in his marriage. His relationship with Alma seemed loving, yes ,but distant.
2. Has Jack on the side, who is becoming increasingly more of a need and craving again after 4 years apart. He did'nt have to answer that postcard, but he did, in fact as gleefully as Ennis got, " You bet" Then in the motel room Jack asks the question " What are we gonna do now? Ennis refers back to above said fam as what he's "stuck with" . The reason he cannot hook up with Jack on a permanant basis after their hopeful reunion.. He feels loyalty to Alma and obligated to the girls. " It ain her fault" He also feels guilt, it's his fault, but what is Jack supposed to think?
He knew what answering the postcard meant. Reviving old feelings long supressed and dormant from he and Jack's past. This says Ennis was concious of his actions. How does this merge with his family life? Was Ennis gonna be content with the best of both worlds? For how long?
Again, what about Jack?
Jack gets hurt after Alma divorces Ennis because he finds his *place* with Ennis has not changed . I feel he was hurt that now, without Alma standing in he way, he still does'nt mean anymore to Ennis than the "side distraction" he's always been. I think Jack sensed that Ennis was not being straight with him. After all it was Ennis's reasoning concerning his family that was the cause of non-comittal to Jack all along. The reason he did'nt push Ennis more after Brokeback. First it's Alma whom he feels obligated to marry setting in motion a series of bad choices and the rejection of a commitment to Jack. Jack presents him with a second chance at a full life in the reunion scene, Ennis accepts him with open arms literally, then rejects Jack again. Contacts Jack announcing the divorce , Jack comes running and Ennis rejects him again. I feel each rejection breaks Jack down a little more.
Giving Jack hope, then rejecting him goes to show again, Ennis was making concious choices, seemingly manuevering this thing in his favor. Maybe what he thought was in both their best interest until....The confrontation in the end where Jack reins in Ennis finally with the mere power of words. When Jack wields this power, Ennis becomes almost powerless. Yeah, Ennis tries to maintain control, but in the face of this control jack had over him, he is left powerless. Jack has broken it down and Ennis has to admit thru his actions that he needs Jack, more than he wants to admit. That it his Jack who actually pulls the strings .Ennis breaks down. Jack sees just how fragile Ennis is by taking away Ennis's means of control. Even then still , it's family that Ennis uses for not meeting Jack in Aug. Jack's heard it all before, the story of his life. This time he does'nt by it blowing Ennis's cover by exposing the issues between them. It was no longer just about Ennis and his needs. It's about Jack's needs too.
The issue for Ennis becomes even more clear, when he finds the shirts diplayed as they were in the closet. Jack never rejected him ,though he rejected Jack over and over. What Jack offered him for 20 years was no longer availiable for him to accept even if he he decided to do so. The opportunity to tell Jack he loved him, despite everything, face to face was forever lost. Who was there for him all thru the picture? Cassie?, Alma? job bosses? kids? nah, it was Jack. I just feel at times that the guilt and shame he felt with Jack did'nt come close to the pain, shame and guilt he felt without him. A devastating realization after the fact.. So who was he really? a wanting, confused , conflicted man? ..or a man who had a sense of arrogant, concious entitlement with means to control Jack's destiny?...I wonder sometimes. Just a rambling observation. :t) :t)
He was both, IMO. Like many of us at crucial times in our lives, he is torn between polar opposites. He was deeply conflicted. This is what gives life and depth to his character.
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Ennis was a person who only one other person understood and really knew...his soulmate Jack. Jack loved Ennis purely, truely, and unconditonally, and Ennis knew this. The tragic thing is how Ennis just lived his life hanging on in quiet desperation because he felt like he was powerless to live the life he really wanted to have with Jack. In the end, he hates himself for depriving himself of happiness, and even more for depriving the one person he purely, truly loved of happiness, Jack. In the end he would give anything to go back to that last day on Brokeback Mountain in the summer of 1963, and fix his mistakes. He would give anything to go back and never say goodbye to Jack and walk away on that road, to make things right this time. He realized how much he'd hurt Jack...and he lived the rest of his life wishing he could have another chance. But Jack knew that Ennis truely, deeply loved him...and though it ended tragically, their love is so pure, deep, true, and strong, that it moves beyond this life and this world. My only consolation for such a tragedy is that years later, after Ennis died alone and miserable in old age, that he was reunited with Jack in the next life, in a much better place where he and Jack could be together forever, young, free, and happy.
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Ennis was a person who only one other person understood and really knew...his soulmate Jack. Jack loved Ennis purely, truely, and unconditonally, and Ennis knew this. The tragic thing is how Ennis just lived his life hanging on in quiet desperation because he felt like he was powerless to live the life he really wanted to have with Jack. In the end, he hates himself for depriving himself of happiness, and even more for depriving the one person he purely, truly loved of happiness, Jack. In the end he would give anything to go back to that last day on Brokeback Mountain in the summer of 1963, and fix his mistakes. He would give anything to go back and never say goodbye to Jack and walk away on that road, to make things right this time. He realized how much he'd hurt Jack...and he lived the rest of his life wishing he could have another chance. But Jack knew that Ennis truely, deeply loved him...and though it ended tragically, their love is so pure, deep, true, and strong, that it moves beyond this life and this world. My only consolation for such a tragedy is that years later, after Ennis died alone and miserable in old age, that he was reunited with Jack in the next life, in a much better place where he and Jack could be together forever, young, free, and happy.
I love that phrase of Thoreau: a life of quiet desperation. It is so very much the embodiment of Ennis in love.
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It is important to know that Jack didn't change Ennis. He changed Ennis' life. Jack didn't change anything about Ennis. He just brought out the real, true Ennis, a person who was capable of loving so purely and deeply with the entirety of his soul. A person who knew the meaning of true love, like Jack...but just had hidden himself behind a wall. Jack came and unlocked the gates to that beautiful heart and soul.
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It is important to know that Jack didn't change Ennis. He changed Ennis' life. Jack didn't change anything about Ennis. He just brought out the real, true Ennis, a person who was capable of loving so purely and deeply with the entirety of his soul. A person who knew the meaning of true love, like Jack...but just had hidden himself behind a wall. Jack came and unlocked the gates to that beautiful heart and soul.
I think this is mostly true. I wonder though whether something fundamentally changed in Ennis after Jack's death. I go back and forth of this one...
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I think this is mostly true. I wonder though whether something fundamentally changed in Ennis after Jack's death. I go back and forth of this one...
I think after Jack's death, Ennis changed into a person who showed his feelings more. He didn't really change fundamentally, because those feelings and emotions had always been there, but he just kept himself behind his wall when he wasn't with Jack.
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I think after Jack's death, Ennis changed into a person who showed his feelings more. He didn't really change fundamentally, because those feelings and emotions had always been there, but he just kept himself behind his wall when he wasn't with Jack.
yes i agree
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I think this is mostly true. I wonder though whether something fundamentally changed in Ennis after Jack's death. I go back and forth of this one...
I go back and forth on it too tpe, but Ennis did agree to ditch the round up and attend Jr's wedding. I feel the fact that she came to him and asked him personally went a long way in permitting a change of heart in Ennis. Also his nod in the affirmative that he was re-visit Mrs. Twist is another example. Speculation on my part, but I bet he would go back and visit her. She was a link to Jack's past and a link to Jack's presence for both of them. He could SO bring Jack alive again by discussing him with her if only in a spiritual sense.
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I go back and forth on that one too. In the ss you get the feeling that Ennis would always be caught between what he knew consciously and what he believes consciously, (does this make sense?), and we're left with question which one will win out in the end. And this is something he'll be struggling with for the rest of his life, or put an end to it and deal with as he always deal with things he couldn't knock on its butt, "If you can't fix, you have stand it".
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I go back and forth on it too tpe, but Ennis did agree to ditch the round up and attend Jr's wedding. I feel the fact that she came to him and asked him personally went a long way in permitting a change of heart in Ennis. Also his nod in the affirmative that he was re-visit Mrs. Twist is another example. Speculation on my part, but I bet he would go back and visit her. She was a link to Jack's past and a link to Jack's presence for both of them. He could SO bring Jack alive again by discussing him with her if only in a spiritual sense.
Yes, this was a very strong indication that something had indeed changed. This ending is certainly more hopeful than the one in the ss, no? What made Ennis in the movie very moving was this hint of movement.
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I go back and forth on that one too. In the ss you get the feeling that Ennis would always be caught between what he knew consciously and what he believes consciously, (does this make sense?), and we're left with question which one will win out in the end. And this is something he'll be struggling with for the rest of his life, or put an end to it and deal with as he always deal with things he couldn't knock on its butt, "If you can't fix, you have stand it".
This was what I was exactly alluding to in my previous post. Thanks MG. With Ennis, it is the sense of struggle that defines above all -- he is never entirely in inner equilibrium.
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Today I have wanted to resuscitate this old thread because maybe with time's perspective one is able to see things better.Although I only can but asking you why you really think that someone so complicated,closed in himself and few talkative as Ennis,could have three persons in love with him during years and,in Jack's case,all his life.And,of course,I'm not talking about a simple sexual attraction,because even someone like Cassie-used to be in touch with a lot of men of a very different personalities-felt for him surely much more than she had been able to feel for some other man in her life.
Maybe is the mysterious condition's charm? Feeling like discover what is hidding inside such a difficult personality?.I must confess I love Ennis more than some time ago,but this attraction power of him is something curious IMO...
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I believe that besides his gorgeous looks, the thing that attracts the most is his taciturn nature. He looks like a shellfish with a hidden pearl inside. And that imagined pearl is so attractive for others, that it doesn't matter if it really exists or not. Looking for it is already the fulfillment of the needs for the ones who seek it. MO
And MPJ, I agree. Ennis becomes more and more attractive in time. <^( <^( <^(
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Ennis was like a tortoise in a shell and it took Jack to make him come out of it a bit and feel something as powerful as Love. It is a shame they never could have that sweet life Jack wanted for them :_(
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For all Ennis's faults, he was artless as far as Jack was concerned. He may have bordered on devious with Alma or even Cassie, but in the end, his honesty and guileless personaility didn't make him good at hiding things. A more devious person would have been able to live out the different contradictory lives without a moment's thought.
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For all Ennis's faults, he was artless as far as Jack was concerned.
I read somewhere that human beings do things for one of two reasons: 1) because it's pleasurable or 2) to avoid pain. We do things because either THEY FEEL GOOD or TO AVOID PAIN. For example, we eat whatever we like it because it feels good and we diet when we get too fat to avoid getting fatter or sick
We like/love (and want to be around) people who make us feel good and we dislike (and don't want to be around) people who make us feel bad. We may not remember what someone says or does, the gifts they give us, but we always remember how they make us feel. My mother died when I was quite young, but today, more than 30 years later, when I close my eyes, I can still feel her warmth and love and I feel safe and loved.
Whatever faults Ennis may have had, he made Jack, Alma and Cassie feel good. Jack would drive 14 hours just to be with him. Alma stayed with him even though she knew he was cheating on her until being with him became too painful. Cassie wanted to marry him until he left her.
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Very good point, jesseanne21. Ennis had the qualities that made him so attractive, in spite of his shyness and (perhaps) unassuming personality. It was both a blessing and a curse, I suppose. He invariably hurt the people who loved him, even though he tried in his own way not to.
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I read somewhere that human beings do things for one of two reasons: 1) because it's pleasurable or 2) to avoid pain. We do things because either THEY FEEL GOOD or TO AVOID PAIN. For example, we eat whatever we like it because it feels good and we diet when we get too fat to avoid getting fatter or sick
We like/love (and want to be around) people who make us feel good and we dislike (and don't want to be around) people who make us feel bad. We may not remember what someone says or does, the gifts they give us, but we always remember how they make us feel. My mother died when I was quite young, but today, more than 30 years later, when I close my eyes, I can still feel her warmth and love and I feel safe and loved.
Whatever faults Ennis may have had, he made Jack, Alma and Cassie feel good. Jack would drive 14 hours just to be with him. Alma stayed with him even though she knew he was cheating on her until being with him became too painful. Cassie wanted to marry him until he left her.
hmm sorry if i veer off topic here ill try to tie it back into the subject matter where i can.
being a psychology student i pobably look at things like this in too much depth, in essence i think what you said here was very plausible indeed and i would agree with what you said in regards to alma, cassie, jack and ennis.
but if we are too look at the statement "human beings do things for one of two reasons: 1) because it's pleasurable or 2) to avoid pain. We do things because either THEY FEEL GOOD or TO AVOID PAIN."
it could be said that its a pretty reductionist out look on humans as a race. if it were true it would mean we were in essence all very selfish, and that everything we did was for our own pleasure or too avoid pain. i mean its kinda debatable if this is true or not becuse even if you go out of your way to do something for someone else to make them feel good, ultimatly it probably makes you feel good also for doing it for them...but i tend to think otherwise and i would argue that love is much more intense then jsut a pleasurable emotion i mean sometimes it hurts like hell, i think love is jsut something in its own class and wouldt quite fit with the basic assumption mentioned. i know that was kinda *o) so forgive me for that sometimes my psychological ramblings get the better of me.
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For all Ennis's faults, he was artless as far as Jack was concerned. He may have bordered on devious with Alma or even Cassie, but in the end, his honesty and guileless personaility didn't make him good at hiding things. A more devious person would have been able to live out the different contradictory lives without a moment's thought.
thomas- A little OT here, but I gotta' ask - your usage here of "artless" - is it in part a reiteration of Annie's usage? . . "Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives." If so, it's an interesting twist, this idea of Jack thinking of Ennis this way, when in Annie's usage she seems to pose Jack thinking of a singular event in their relationship and not of the individual. IMO it seems both are fitting.
:c)
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Thanks so much Jackster! I admit that when I wrote that last post, I wasn't fully conscious of the connection with AP's description of the DE. But you are so right! Perhaps it was in the back of my mind all along, without really realizing it.
OT: As some of you already know from the "Next Chapter" thread under "Member Connection", I will be making a major move in the coming days and I will temporarily disappear from the forum in the next few weeks. I hope all of you can continue the wonderful discussions here and in other parts of the forum. I will miss participating here in the weeks ahead. But to be sure, I will be back!
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*o) Come back soon,please ˇ
Well,I think Ennis has the charm of things that are,at the same time,close and plain,mysterious and distant.Somebody who shows how he is in a very easy way,at least in the surface; but that hides something one can guess,something beyond his silences...Maybe is this duality what attracted three persons during a so long time of their lives;they were always trying to open that door that was always half closed.
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*o) Come back soon,please ˇ
Well,I think Ennis has the charm of things that are,at the same time,close and plain,mysterious and distant.Somebody who shows how he is in a very easy way,at least in the surface; but that hides something one can guess,something beyond his silences...Maybe is this duality what attracted three persons during a so long time of their lives;they were always trying to open that door that was always half closed.
Sometimes, I think of Ennis as more than just a duality. For all his simplicity and candor, there are many many enigmas to his charcter that points to being torn in many different directions. In a real sense, the persons who find themselves drawn to him represent distinct and very different manifestations. THe "door" that you speak of is not the same door for each one.
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Sometimes, I think of Ennis as more than just a duality. For all his simplicity and candor, there are many many enigmas to his charcter that points to being torn in many different directions. In a real sense, the persons who find themselves drawn to him represent distinct and very different manifestations. THe "door" that you speak of is not the same door for each one.
Yes,Ennis was,above all,a contradiction with legs,as someone said once...There're too many complications,enigmas and paradoxes in him that make him a much more difficult character than one can think,being an inarticulate country boy as he's.And when someone is this way,it's easy that every person who has a relationship with him,knows only a facet.I suppose this is what you refer to when you say that the door is not the same for Jack,Alma or Cassie,no?.
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Yes,Ennis was,above all,a contradiction with legs,as someone said once...There're too many complications,enigmas and paradoxes in him that make him a much more difficult character than one can think,being an inarticulate country boy as he's.And when someone is this way,it's easy that every person who has a relationship with him,knows only a facet.I suppose this is what you refer to when you say that the door is not the same for Jack,Alma or Cassie,no?.
Because he is more complicated, is is thereby more accessible to every human being. By is faults and contradications and the will to love in spite of them, he mirrors us all in our hopes and aspirations.
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Because he is more complicated, is is thereby more accessible to every human being. By is faults and contradications and the will to love in spite of them, he mirrors us all in our hopes and aspirations.
And I suppose it's easier to feel oneself identified with Ennis,in spite of his complexity,or precisely because of it.Every one of us can see an own part or a side of ourselves in him.Moreover,all of us are complicated,all of us have our own fears and contradictions; isn't it true that we always feel closer to the looser,or at least,to the one who seems having a main inner turmoil?
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And I suppose it's easier to feel oneself identified with Ennis,in spite of his complexity,or precisely because of it.Every one of us can see an own part or a side of ourselves in him.Moreover,all of us are complicated,all of us have our own fears and contradictions; isn't it true that we always feel closer to the looser,or at least,to the one who seems having a main inner turmoil?
I think that various aspects of each of us identifies with Jack and Ennis. They are like a side of the same coin -- the reverse of the medal, so to speak. Each one of us is complicated. And the inconsistencies of Ennis and Jack speak to different but very related parts of us -- parts that are hard to disentangle.
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Could we declare that Ennis has the charm of the misterious,the closed; of somebody who has something inside him or her that goes far beyond what we see on the surface?.And that,in these cases,we always want to discover what he hiddens?.
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Could we declare that Ennis has the charm of the misterious,the closed; of somebody who has something inside him or her that goes far beyond what we see on the surface?.And that,in these cases,we always want to discover what he hiddens?.
I hereby declare that Ennis is a mystery (grins).
There's so many hidden layers to him and he's full of surprises. He says little but can speak volumes with a simple gesture. There is a gentle, honest, sincere, vulnerability about him that draws people in. He is unspoiled and passionate towards those he loves, yet he can be so complicated or transparent at the same time... has many struggles deep within himself. So human and I loved em.
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Could we declare that Ennis has the charm of the misterious,the closed; of somebody who has something inside him or her that goes far beyond what we see on the surface?.And that,in these cases,we always want to discover what he hiddens?.
I think Ennis was an enigma even to himself. Without Jack in his life, he is even more inscrutable. This "mystery" charms and irritates us at the same time.
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I hereby declare that Ennis is a mystery (grins).
There's so many hidden layers to him and he's full of surprises. He says little but can speak volumes with a simple gesture. There is a gentle, honest, sincere, vulnerability about him that draws people in. He is unspoiled and passionate towards those he loves, yet he can be so complicated or transparent at the same time... has many struggles deep within himself. So human and I loved em.
Yes,you're awfully right ˇ :clap: Maybe isn't this the main characteristic of shy,reserved persons?.They don't speak too much with words,but their body language speaks for them,and how ˇ.He can be,as we say here,"like an open book",but at the same time,like a book with several pages lacking...One never knows what he's thinking but one can guess what he's feeling.People tends to be attracted to complicated persons,maybe to impute oneself the merit of having unravelled that mystery...
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I think Ennis was an enigma even to himself. Without Jack in his life, he is even more inscrutable. This "mystery" charms and irritates us at the same time.
Yes,you're awfully right too ˇ :clap: He was an enigma to himself,the same than IMO sometimes he hated himself for being and feeling like he did.Too many questions without answer,too many inner struggles,too any contradictions...Doubtless,this duality creates in us also some dual feelings.
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I just love how contradictory and inconsistent Ennis is. The same way I love Jack being a dreamer and all. Both of them can be termed "losers", but they embody so many of our own failings that we readily empathize with their shortcomings and inconsistencies.
Yes,you're awfully right too ˇ :clap: He was an enigma to himself,the same than IMO sometimes he hated himself for being and feeling like he did.Too many questions without answer,too many inner struggles,too any contradictions...Doubtless,this duality creates in us also some dual feelings.
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Yeah, it's definitely no surprise that Ennis was a virgin. From his upbringing, it is clear that he wouldn't have had pre-marital sex. He was someone who played by the rules because that's what was expected of him, so of course he was a virgin. As for his attraction to other guys...I believe it was something he knew about himself, but of kept hidden. Ennis knew he was different, that he didn't fit into the society he lived in...but he just had to live the life that was expected of him. When he met Jack, for the first time in his life, someone understood him and he felt free to be who he really was. The wall he'd built around himself came down. Deep down inside, Ennis was a romantic idealist, but he thought he would never actually find true love because his society would never allow him and the circumstances would never be right or he would never meet the right person. And then when he least expected...along came Jack, and true love had arrived and found Ennis. The isolated setting of Brokeback Mountain made it the perfect place for both of them to be free and happy. Had Ennis never met Jack, he would have just lived a discontented life, convincing himself that he loved Alma. After he met Jack, Ennis knew he'd found his one true love, and that was Jack. He knew that he could never fool himself again, but he felt like a prisoner because he had to go back and marry Alma and do what society expected him to. So that's what he did, because he felt like he had no choice, he was scared that he'd end up like Earl if he did what he really wanted to do, if he was really true to himself, and that was to be with Jack. Jack was in a similar situation...although he was less afraid than Ennis. He knew society wouldn't accept him, but he wasn't going to let fear stop him from being with his one true love, Ennis. As to the question of whether or not Jack was a virgin...there's really no evidence that he wasn't. Jack, of course was attracted to other guys, and like Ennis, he had known it for quite some time, but he lived in the same type of society as Ennis, so he too must have kept it hidden. I think the only reason Jack seemed more "experienced" than Ennis, was simply because Jack was a lot more outgoing than Ennis, and didn't have the quiet, introverted personality that Ennis had. I don't really think Jack had had any romantic relationship with anyone before, but him being the outgoing personality, he just initiated it because the wall Ennis had built around himself wasn't going to come down by itself, only someone like Jack, with those particular qualities, and that personality could free Ennis. It's clear to me that they both saw each other, and liked each other from the beginning, and from the beginning knew it was something epic, something true, something deep that neither one had felt before. From the beginning they knew they had found true love. Jack showed Ennis what happiness was, and from then on, Ennis knew that Jack was the only person he needed. That's why Ennis was emotionally distraught and physically sick when they parted ways. Now that he had found his one true love, he didn't know how he was going to go back to the life that was expected of him. He didn't know how he could endure that prison and those chains, after experiencing freedom and happiness with Jack on Brokeback Mountain. He didn't know how he was going to live a single day without Jack, but he felt there was nothing he could do about, so he just had to endure it. Jack felt the same way, but unlike Ennis, Jack believed he could do something about it, that he didn't have to endure it, that he could be with Ennis no matter what, because their love was so true and strong that they would find a way against all odds that society stacked up against them. I wish they had never parted ways and they had remained together since that first summer on Brokeback Mountain...it would have been both Ennis' and Jack's dream come true. If society had been different, Ennis wouldn't have been afraid. It would have been heaven for them if society hadn't been cruel and ignorant, they would have always been together, and been free and happy. No chains, no suffering, no regrets, no sorrow.
Of all the post that I have read about Ennis & Jack concerning their love and relationship, this is the most beautiful and powerful one, thank you Athena for those beautiful lines! :^^) ^f^
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Ennis
About the wolf's balls with the size of apples: I always wondered what Ennis really expresses by saying this, because in reality the size of the balls of a wolf or any other predator for that matter is rather small. It is possible that he never shot the wolf, but makes up the whole story. If he actually shot the wolf, he exaggerates a lot about the size of its balls. Anyway, it's obvious that his mind is occupied with the male organ at this moment. He signals an interest here, maybe unconsciously. I think so. Agree?
Best regards
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Looking at Ennis I tend to believe Alma, Cassie and Jack each saw him as a person who was hard to approach. We never saw his pre-BBM relationship with Alma. I have to assume he didn't have a lot to say to her at first. Jack and Cassie both had to initiate conversation and dig up what social skills Ennis possessed. Once Ennis let his guard down, they could all see that there was a lovable person under Ennis's exterior. All three characters fell for him...and hard. In the end it was Jack who gained a complete grip on Ennis's heart.
cant agree more (:* .. he was intriguing, hard to approach, mysterious and at the same time yes attractive ... so may be these people were interested in discovering what lies beneath the stoic exterior .. and we know that when he lets his guard down ennis DO has a soft vulnerable side ... and HE IS INTENSE ... in short he has the X factor that not only attracts but attracts in a serious way
its the same reason why so many brokies in the forum would agree they have fallen for him {b}
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yes they were intrigued ... handsome man who keeps quiet and sometimes steals glances :) then opens up when you really try
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I think I can relate to this a lot. I went through a period in my life where someone very special came along, but I was too busy asking myself what does he see in me to really understand the depth of what he felt for me. I believe Ennis always wondered himself what it was about him. Why does Jack see in him? Why it is so special about him that Jack is so interested? Ennis had low self-esteem and a lot of self-doubt. It was very difficult for him to understand why people were attracted to him, why they loved him. It is common for people have gone through bad childhoods and never felt loved. It makes a person feel that they aren't worthy of being loved. Ennis got to experience what most people never do, true love, but he didn't understand till the end that yes he was worthy of being loved. Sometimes I feel that Jack should have just come right out and said. "Ennis, yes, it's love. I love you, and I want you and only you. And I wish you'd realize how special you are." Jack saying "You have no idea how bad it gets, I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.", was pretty much the same thing as saying that.
I wish Jack didn't feel like he had to walk on eggshells with Ennis. Ennis needed a wake-up call to show him how much he was loved, and unfortunately the wake-up call was Jack's death, and the discovery of the shirts, and Jack's mother's kindness. What was it about Ennis? Well, I bet Jack could come up with a long list. From the moment he saw him, he wanted him. The way he looks at him is clear. He wanted to know more about Ennis, he wanted to truly know him in an intimate way. He approached Ennis in a manner in which no one had before. He genuinely was concerned about him, treated him like he was worthy. All his life, people never really bothered getting to know Ennis. They formed their own opinions about him based on the exterior they saw. They thought Ennis was simple, or that Ennis was stoic, or that Ennis was quiet, all judgments made about him. But then Jack came along, and he saw something else. Just because Ennis wasn't saying anything, he didn't make an assumption about his personality. I can speak from experience being an introvert myself. A lot of times people have made an assumption based on being around for a short time. That I'm quiet, don't want to be bothered, too shy, etc. But one day someone like Jack didn't do that, he took the time to actually talk to me and want to know more, to want to see the real person behind the exterior. This is what Jack did with Ennis. He talked to him in a way that wasn't just meaningless small talk, and was genuinely interested in knowing the real person. He knew there was more to Ennis, just because Ennis was being quiet and shy, Jack didn't take it to mean that Ennis was boring. He wanted to know Ennis's name and remember it, he waited for Ennis outside the office.
If Jack hadn't done that, Ennis would have never opened up to him. It was the way Jack was, his personality, the way he treated Ennis that made all the difference and brought Ennis out of his shell, so to speak. Jack saw Ennis and was intrigued. Ennis had no idea how attractive he even was or why anyone would be interested in him, because his entire life he had never had a person like Jack in his life. Jack saw that vulnerable, fragile person underneath the facade, and the rest is history. People were attracted to Ennis because he was a bit of a mystery, but only Jack understood. Ennis is a person whom so much is hidden beneath the surface, that it take a very special person to excavate into his soul and bring him out. It was something very special to get to know him, and throughout Ennis's life Jack was the only person that Ennis let in to his personal space, his innermost soul which he never showed to anyone else. Jack was the only one that actually got to know Ennis. Everyone else just saw the facade. Ennis gave his precious gift to Jack and only Jack. And Jack definitely knew this. He knew he was privy to the true Ennis and he cherished that fact that he was the only person in the world who had Ennis's heart.