Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: jackster on Aug 03, 2007, 05:12 PM
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Ennis. Young Ennis was shown this brutal murder scene and was seemingly exposed to the nature of their relationship even before this ugly scene. “Dad would pass a remark when he seen them” he recalled 15 years later when revealing this scene to Jack (in the SS). So, he learned at a young age about men living together with men, whether good or bad, but he was made aware of it as a phenomena. Do you think that this early knowledge and understanding (as negative as it was) of men living together was critical to his later concept of this as even a possibility?
Like Adam in the Garden, Ennis was shown something, but then forewarned not to touch it. It can make it very tempting. If Ennis had not been shown this “lifestyle” do think he would have been more or less receptive to Jack FNIT? Would he have rebuffed Jacks’ first advance, or more importantly, not sought any type of emotional relationship with Jack as he initiated SNIT?
Ennis certainly was AC/DC but seemed to get more satisfaction (in several ways) from his relationship with Jack than with Alma or Cassie. But many men with similar feelings would’ve punched out Jack’s lights if he’d made a similar move FNIT. Ennis, after thinking it over came to a different conclusion SNIT. Why?
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Ennis eating the the forbidden fruit, becoming aware of right and wrong, of good and evil, and living with the knowledge and the consequences of his actions this impression that something that would plagued him for twenty years of his love for Jack.
In spite of his knowledge he did what was natural to him the FNIT and SNIT, this was who he was. The problem was that he was shown what could result from doing what was natural to him, restrainting that part of himself that could made him a whole, happly, loving person.
But if not shown the consequences of what could happen, Jack would have no doubts of how Ennis felt, those four years would have never happened, because Ennis would have never let Jack out of his sight.
His marriage to Alma would have not taken place, and Cassie would have never been thought of. Ennis total well being, peace of mind, and his body would have been Jack's, and Jack's alone.
I hope I'm making sense, this such a deep question, I know I'll be posting more, I can't stop thinking about what you've asked.
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I don't think Ennis's father wanted to do anything to his sons other than frighten them - at their age they were too young surely to understand the sexual aspects of this adult trelationship. He's obviously one of those men who thinks that you can scare the young more by being unspecific - and remember at the time this happened ( ? early 50s) there was much less open discussion of personal matters even in fairly sophisticated society, which rural Wyoming wasn't. At this point Ennis has both parents and can see them in a conventional relationship, like those around them - all his father is doing is I think giving him a general sense that you should be like other people, do the same as they do, not try to break out of the bounds of convention.
After his parents' death Ennis eveidently tags along with his brother and sister till they marry; it's impossible to tell what experiences he has at that time, but they must be fairly limited. I take his "I've not had the opportunity" to be a sinner to be literally true; if it is, he's nineteen and must be full of all sorts of desires. Then along comes Jack and BBM; isolation in a beautiful palce, the chance to smoke, drink, talk that he's never had before - and Jack, who IMO is after his previous summer on the mountain and time on the rodeo circuit more experienced than Jack. Maybe Jackis less forbidden fruit than the promise of what Ennis wants and needs , friendship, affection, understanding and love.
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I think deep America in the 50, s was closed enough to catalogue any behaviour that was not that of catholic marriage as perverted,and in some persons bordering on fundamentalism,this was enough to threat who dared to come out from this pre-established line with the fire of the Avernus.In my opinion,any teaching to carry specially young people away from sin ,took implicit the idea of punishment,to show what could happen if you eat the forbidden fruit...That´s what Ennis father did,circunstance that for itself can produce a duality in the kid´s mind:or being a god-tearing, or run away from all these learnings,as far as one can(experience teaches that persons educated in a religious school,not becoming a religious themselves as "career",are who have a more free behaviour,as a reaction against all the ties they had before).
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And this is what happenned to Ennis:on one hand,this childhood souvenir turmented and marked him at the point of building a wall to hide his deepest feelings even before who he loved most.But on the other hand,he may perfectly feel attracted for the situation,because when one forbides something,immediately is creating a desire to discover WHY.It´s to say,in his mind there was an inner fight between the refuse and the attraction to what being with another man meant.
And then, Jack arrived:as you,welshwitch,say , the isolation,the peace and beauty of the landscape,and Jack´s ability to give him warmth and affection in order to make him come out from himself,altogether with a victory of this attraction I spoke before,representated in the sexual desire that Jack´s good-looking provoked,forced him to surrender in the FNT and,after some remorses,in the SNT.Of course,the rest of his life the refuse won.
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Ennis. Young Ennis was shown this brutal murder scene and was seemingly exposed to the nature of their relationship even before this ugly scene. “Dad would pass a remark when he seen them” he recalled 15 years later when revealing this scene to Jack (in the SS). So, he learned at a young age about men living together with men, whether good or bad, but he was made aware of it as a phenomena. Do you think that this early knowledge and understanding (as negative as it was) of men living together was critical to his later concept of this as even a possibility?
Like Adam in the Garden, Ennis was shown something, but then forewarned not to touch it. It can make it very tempting. If Ennis had not been shown this “lifestyle” do think he would have been more or less receptive to Jack FNIT? Would he have rebuffed Jacks’ first advance, or more importantly, not sought any type of emotional relationship with Jack as he initiated SNIT?
Ennis certainly was AC/DC but seemed to get more satisfaction (in several ways) from his relationship with Jack than with Alma or Cassie. But many men with similar feelings would’ve punched out Jack’s lights if he’d made a similar move FNIT. Ennis, after thinking it over came to a different conclusion SNIT. Why?
First of all great tpoic Jackster!
On your firsrt points, A definite YES. It shaped his concept of to gay men living together unfotunatly in a negative sense. I think as in a lot of our childhood teachings it is the parents or caregivers who influence most of our thinking and attitudes about society. Childrens minds are empty vessels until they are programmed with powers of reason. The important sense of right and wrong.
As I said in another thread this event of seeing a mutiated Earl in a ditch at this young age, after his father had let his own feelings of negativity towards the couple be known to young Ennis,completed the lesson for him In the process a certain amount of childhood innocence was lost...and something more important, the freedom of thought, the ability to form his own opinion about what these two men may have meant to each other.
Im not sure if he would have been more receptive just from being shown the "lifestyle" , but he would have felt less "bound up" and fearful of it if his freedom of thought had not been disturbed as a kid. . This is the irony of the whole thing. He was taught to hate what he grew up to be. Jack somehow brought to the surface,, feelings buried in Ennis. He no doubt compared he and Jack to Earl and Ray.
Now he finds himself in love with another man at 19. It is now his and Jack's lives at stake. He now understands the possibilities of how Earl and ray came to be.
Sticks his toe into the water in FNIT, found it warm and fine...but they were still to Ennis ,Earl and Ray, two gay ranchers who dared to go against the "norm", so he sets out to do everything he can to ward off the harm in a protective manner BEFORE what he felt would surely happen ,if they were discovered, happened. He decides to hide in plain sight...He marries Alma. A perfect smokescreen already in the works. Did what he had to do. But Jack was never far from his mind.
Why did he come back to Jack in SNIT? Jack was unlike anyone he'd ever met. Jack was his confirmation, if you will that the feelings he had inside were real. Jack was his confidant, teacher and lover.. He was the one responsible for this acceptance of those feelings. He had to put them to the test one more time and this time really feel them. The first kiss, and in those moments he was able to let go the hate, fear and shame. It was a very vulnerable, open , honest asessment of all the things he'd been taught to hate. fro childhood. Discovered that , what was forbidden in this Garden of Eden ,was a natural, human place to be. Forbidden only by society but no longer for himself. Just like Earl and Ray felt. My fav scene Sweet. <^( <^( <^( My Take, ..my passion, Ennis Del Mar. :t)
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Interesting answers all, I think you're very imaginative. My reason for asking this is related to my own childhood in 50s/60s America, which though it may look traditional on the surface, I think in reality it was not quite as bound by so-called catholic rules as many think. I was very influenced by a single, unmarried sibling of a grandparent, one who had many friends of the same sex, who traveled with these same sex friends once or twice a year, and was also devoutly Catholic. These same-sex friends came to Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners and celebrated birthdays with us. It was not considered perverted, they were thought of as part of the family, this was in small town, middle-class, middle America (Ohio). These “Aunts” and “Uncles” had a profound impact on me later, when I realized I didn’t need to get married to be happy, I could be single, have very close male friends and still have a happy and productive life.
I was exposed (albeit in a positive way) early on to close same sex friendships. This exposure made me very aware at an early age of this as a pattern and possibility, and when puberty arrived and my sexual interests went in one direction I never looked back.
How did other boys (and girls), like Ennis and Jack, figure this out? Ennis was shown it point blank in a most negative way- and (sorry to disagree WW) I think even at 9 yrs old he KNEW it was sexual, especially with an older brother in the house. Did this exposure impact Ennis’s future understanding of himself? I know its not popular to think this now, but in the 60s I think a lot of men who would have been homosexual simply didn’t know that it even existed and turned away from their feelings, especially in rural WY. But Ennis was SHOWN the possiblity (if very negatively), did this actually help him see the way, but at the same time perversely keep him from finding the route?
Then there’s the case of young Jack in Lighting Flat. ;)
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Ennis. Young Ennis was shown this brutal murder scene and was seemingly exposed to the nature of their relationship even before this ugly scene. “Dad would pass a remark when he seen them” he recalled 15 years later when revealing this scene to Jack (in the SS). So, he learned at a young age about men living together with men, whether good or bad, but he was made aware of it as a phenomena. Do you think that this early knowledge and understanding (as negative as it was) of men living together was critical to his later concept of this as even a possibility?
Like Adam in the Garden, Ennis was shown something, but then forewarned not to touch it. It can make it very tempting. If Ennis had not been shown this “lifestyle” do think he would have been more or less receptive to Jack FNIT? Would he have rebuffed Jacks’ first advance, or more importantly, not sought any type of emotional relationship with Jack as he initiated SNIT?
Ennis certainly was AC/DC but seemed to get more satisfaction (in several ways) from his relationship with Jack than with Alma or Cassie. But many men with similar feelings would’ve punched out Jack’s lights if he’d made a similar move FNIT. Ennis, after thinking it over came to a different conclusion SNIT. Why?
IMO: Ennis relationship with Alma and Cassie, is just the result of charade he perpertrated on both. He grew up seeing that when your time came you married, and you married straight like brother and sister. It was logical next step for him. What was illogical to him was his was this need for Jack, this didn't fit. But damn!! this what he wanted. After the FINT touched something so deep in him, that after barely facing Jack the next morning, and just riding away he knew than he had to decide what he wanted, and he lay with Jack that next night, and lost himself in Jack.
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Interesting answers all, I think you're very imaginative. My reason for asking this is related to my own childhood in 50s/60s America, which though it may look traditional on the surface, I think in reality it was not quite as bound by so-called catholic rules as many think. I was very influenced by a single, unmarried sibling of a grandparent, one who had many friends of the same sex, who traveled with these same sex friends once or twice a year, and was also devoutly Catholic. These same-sex friends came to Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners and celebrated birthdays with us. It was not considered perverted, they were thought of as part of the family, this was in small town, middle-class, middle America (Ohio). These “Aunts” and “Uncles” had a profound impact on me later, when I realized I didn’t need to get married to be happy, I could be single, have very close male friends and still have a happy and productive life.
I was exposed (albeit in a positive way) early on to close same sex friendships. This exposure made me very aware at an early age of this as a pattern and possibility, and when puberty arrived and my sexual interests went in one direction I never looked back.
How did other boys (and girls), like Ennis and Jack, figure this out? Ennis was shown it point blank in a most negative way- and (sorry to disagree WW) I think even at 9 yrs old he KNEW it was sexual, especially with an older brother in the house. Did this exposure impact Ennis’s future understanding of himself? I know its not popular to think this now, but in the 60s I think a lot of men who would have been homosexual simply didn’t know that it even existed and turned away from their feelings, especially in rural WY. But Ennis was SHOWN the possiblity (if very negatively), did this actually help him see the way, but at the same time perversely keep him from finding the route?
Then there’s the case of young Jack in Lighting Flat. ;)
Do you think one can overcome the negative, or are hopelessly stuck like Ennis?
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Do you think one can overcome the negative, or are hopelessly stuck like Ennis?
Oh, I think it's done all the time by people in all walks of life and all cultural backgrounds. Not always, but a lot. Jack probably didn't have many (any?) positive examples of being gay, but he did seem to work it out in his mind, enough to make him come out of the tent after FNIT and not hide in shame. Many don't overcome a negative self image (for whatever reason) however, and end up alcoholics, etc. I've always thought Ennis actually did pretty good, given his situation, he could have become just a lonely old drunk cowboy stuck in his trailer. . . .
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Just a word about the world I grew up in. I graduated from high school in 1963. I think some people think everyone was innocent where sex was concerned in 1963. Some were, of course, but in middle-America, the 60's were a time of everything opening up. Just as Ennis smoked and drank, I think he would have been sexually active -- with girls only at that time, though. I think that was pretty much the way of things. I'm kind of surprised that people think young people in America were repressed at that time. That wasn't my experience. The VietNam war changed any innocence that was left over from the 50's. It was the beginning of the rebellious era. Jack and Ennis were certainly ( in my opinion) aware of what was goin on in the world (see ss), and since both were away from home, I think they were influenced by peers who were experimenting with lots of things, including sex. Unwed teenage mothers were very visible; it was not at all unusual for the first baby to come only a few months after marriage. I just find it hard to think that Ennis was so innocent as to be virginal. After all, he was around his older broher and sister, saw them in their courting days with the people they married. Out in the lonely west, kids knew about sex -- saw the animals-- found it all very normal -- not necessarily something you waited for marriage for. I don't think Ennis had had any homosexual experience, of course, because of his father's training, if for no other reason. But I don't think he was innocent about sex
Are there any other silvere foxes out there? What do you think?
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. . . I think some people think everyone was innocent where sex was concerned in 1963. Some were, of course, but in middle-America, the 60's were a time of everything opening up . . . . Jack and Ennis were certainly aware of what was goin on in the world . . . I don't think Ennis had had any homosexual experience, . . . . But I don't think he was innocent about sex . . .
I think you’re right on lamusica. It wasn’t as narrow a time as television and the movies would have us believe. Graduated in ’63 eh? (’70 here) So did you know of same–sex couples living together or even having “special” friendships like Ennis ‘n Jack? You surely knew or heard about “queers” and homosex, but what about single (or I guess even married) men who had long-term relationships with other men. Seems like no one ever talked about it, but did you know it existed while growing up? Did you even see it as a possibility? This is the heart of my Q about Ennis; did the mere existence of Earl ‘n Rich actually show him something (positive) that he otherwise might not have conceived of?
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I don't think Ennis was innocent of sex either, on that I agree with you. The theory I'm working on is that, Ennis up until the time he met Jack, sex for him was something he knew of but not actually kick in for him until Jack stir something inside of him. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say: Ennis sexual self was stunted, I don't know if was Earl and Rich incident that did it. But Ennis became a very careful and guarded child, and young man after that.
Jack held a key that open Ennis up to feelings he didn't know he had, sex was real for him at that moment in FNIT, and Jack took Ennis's hand and brought it to him, Ennis resisted than gave in to him, the key was turned and Ennis walked into a world no one up until that moment could do, Jack led the way, and a realization of his sexuality a whole new part of him that was became real, and he wanted it again , he wanted Jack, Sex was not an abstract thought, but a real thing. Am I off on this?
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Jackster,
See, this is why I feel Ennis has harbored these feelings longer than before he met Jack. I think it was all repressed deep iside his conciousness. Probably since he was a young boy. I work with women on my job who happen to be gay. ( I can only show my ignorance by asking questions) ;D I recently asked them ,When did you know? She said around 12 years old.
Ennis not only perhaps wondered about Earl and Ray. only after he found out the true nature of their relationship ( his father, townsfolk, etc.) but perhaps felt related to them in some way.
Feel it led the path to participate in FNIT, and not put Jack's lights out. He came upon the right guy, at the right time ,right place, with the right approach.... Jack Twist. With Jack, Ennis slowly allows himself to feel what Earl and Ray must have felt. He felt released and freed with Jack .
He happens upon Jack, retreats into himself more about his feelings. He battles himself for what he has been taught and shown ( Earl dead.) And what he truly feels. Wanted to please Jack ( almost like a boyfriend trying to get noticed) . It's the best way he knew how....little subtble favors and actions. Never words... but it's love.
He chose to to relate this very personal story to Jack in hopes that Jack would somehow understand why things had to be kept very discreet. I think he had a sexual attraction to Jack, related to Earl and Ray from childhood in a positive way, but what happens to Earl? And as far as what Jack was asking him to do . Ennis says dead Earl? ...dead Jack or Ennis...
Seeing Earl and Ray's lifestyle may have crossed Ennis's mind, even in a positive way, but look what happened to Earl. IMO that ruined it for them.
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So, if I understand what you're sayin' aintfoolin', just knowing about Earl 'n Ray DID influence Ennis in his initial, emotional reaction to Jack FNIT. And in a positive way. He didn't just punch out Jack's lights or jump outa' the tent, but he stayed, and uttered that, coy, innocent phrase: "Whadayadoin?". He KNEW what Jack was doin' and he might want it too. By the SNIT he knew he wanted it too.
Obviously he now has the demons of his own desires and Earls grusome death to deal with, which he never seems able to reconcile while Jack's alive.
And MHGirl, what you're saying is that Ennis had sexual desire (homosexual desire), but didn't realize it or understand it until Jack took his hand and showed him the way. Am I understanding you right here?
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I'm saying that Ennis knowing about Earl and Ray opened up possibilities for him that he never would have recognized had he not had knowledge of Earl and Ray, only his father's negativity. He recognized something that was familiar because of it which perhaps gave him a level of comfort and fear.at moments on BBM. Perhaps memories of them together ( Earl and Ray) nutured his own feelings of love for Jack. Now he had something to compare his feelings and situation to.
He rememberd them. realized that two men falling in love was not an impossibility for he had witnessed it with his own eyes. In FNIT Ennis was aware enough about his feelings to not punch Jack out. He secretly wanted Jack IMO.
Earl and Ray showed him that he was not the only one who could desire another man sexually. realized love fully by choosing to live together, something he could not do.They were his *proof* if you will that this can happen between two men and that his father was wrong in his thinking.
I feel he was definitly at that point after the reunion scene by the river. His prayer of thanks was really about having Jack back in his life again. Had Earl lived maybe poor Jack could've realized his dream ...but unlike Earl and Ray,sadly due to fear, Jack and Ennis both only got a taste of the possibilities. MO.
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And MHGirl, what you're saying is that Ennis had sexual desire (homosexual desire), but didn't realize it or understand it until Jack took his hand and showed him the way. Am I understanding you right here?
Yes, Ennis may have been a virgin but not an innocent. It wasn't until Jack that Ennis wanted to be physically close to anyone. It wasn't until Jack that he gave into that sexual desire and found it not repulsive but beautiful.
How could Ennis reconcile his love for Jack, and the idea that very love could kill you?
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I'm a silver wolf, was brought up in a Baptist family in a city of 100,000. Knew about sex in theory - read too much literature not to - and was also aware of homosexuality. There was a great stigma in producing an illegitimate child but we were aware of how to avoid that.What we lacked wasn't so much desire as opportunity - we lived at home till university, parents often took us to and fetched us from things at night. Once we were away from home we all started experimenting madly. I suppose some of us were virgins till we married, but by no means all. There was an expectation that one would marry and most of us did. However, we were aware that there were others who made a different choice. Homosexuality ceased to be a crime in England in 1967, so for most of my adult life it hasn't been an issue in the same way, and I don't think there has ever been quite the extensive violently anti-gay feeling in the UK that there still is in parts of the US. Still, my love of Dirk Bogarde and my admiration of his brave movie "Victim" had already showed us the dangers inherent in being gay, which word of course wasn't used then.
If I had to guess, I'd say, based on my own experience, that in 1963 Ennis was likely to be inexperienced f not ignorant, whereas Jack was neither.
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If I had to guess, I'd say, based on my own experience, that in 1963 Ennis was likely to be inexperienced if not ignorant, whereas Jack was neither.
:s) Got me puzzled here WW. If Ennis, having heard his dad talk about them tough old birds Earl n' Rich, and then seeing Earl's body as a boy, and having grown up with an older more sexually mature brother, is still ignorant of homosex at age 19 - how do you feel young Jack who's stuck out there in Lightning Flat all by himself becomes familiar with the subject? Do you feel he was "initiated" his first year on the Mountain ('62) or while rodeoing down in Texas? Or are you meaning knowledgable of sexual matters in general?
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I think just the fact that Jack got around a lot more than Ennis seemed to would mean that he was exposed to more and more varied sex. Somewhere along the line, Jack had seen, if not actually participated in, homosexual acts. He knew what he wanted from Ennis and knew how to get it. Ennis, however, in my opinion, knew what two men could do together -- his father taught him that-- but he also knew about heterosex -his brother's relationship and his sister's relationship. I think both boys knew enough about sex to know it feels good --a little self-exploration there --, so I think it was not a far reach to practice on a willing partner. That's why I still don't see Ennis as a virgin, but as a young guy who did the usual stuff with the girls he took out to the drive-in, for long walks in the country, etc. Well, I'm sure I'm in the minority with this opinion, so I'll drop it here. Either way, when Jack and Ennis met, the fireworks started to smoulder. Eventually they had to ignite. All it took was Jack's courage to grab Ennis's hand and put it where he wanted it.
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Why is it that Jack is look upon as the "Eve" that has Ennis tasting the fruit? The knowledge was in Ennis all along. That first night, Jack just took his hand brought it to him. Was this an aggressive act?
Alone in a tent laying so close to each other Jack could feel Ennis breathe, too much. too willing, the need too strong to resist. Ennis knew what Jack wanted, and Ennis gave more than Jack even expected.
Even with the slight Ennis gave Jack the following morning. Ennis returned to him that night, and made love. Jack was being who he was, not pretending to be someone or something else, accepting Ennis with a kind of understanding of someone that only had love in his heart could do. Jack was love and Ennis wanted it. Jack was the love Ennis miss all his life, but still couldn't totally accept it.
Jack for twenty years tried to be what Ennis wanted. Ennis so wrapped in his own pain couldn't see Jack was love, uncomplicated, straightforward love. Well, understood it only after Jack died.
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Why is it that Jack is look upon as the "Eve" that has Ennis tasting the fruit? The knowledge was in Ennis all along. That first night, Jack just took his hand brought it to him. Was this an aggressive act?
I hadn't actually thought of it that way MHG, I was just using the metaphor of the Garden to explore how Ennis was exposed to forbidden fruit at a young age. But now that you mention it, it was Jack who "beckoned" Ennis into the tent and then beckoned him again with his hand. If Jack hadn't made this move I don't think Ennis was going to do it. However, I don't view it as an aggressive act as some do, that word has too many connotations of warfare and taking advantage for me. I see it as being proactive or taking the inititive. It would have been easy enough for Ennis to decline the invitation if he wanted. But he knew where this was going (IMO) and was ready for the trip.
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This is absolutly right! MG., Ennis did want Jack in FNIT. IMO, when he resisted , I feel he was saying Wait, wait, wait, instead of no, no,no, just tentative and nervous and fresh from a drunken stupor and a dead sleep He did'nt know if he was actually ready for this like right now. He never questioned why Jack was doing this , only a half-hearted, unconvincing whaterya doin?, did'nt run away or resist further after he got the picture..
Jack's insistence and suddeness threw Ennis off. Jack was straight forward, he was agressive but only in the sense that he was very insistent. This is NOT a bad thing, as someone like Ennis who is in denial has to prompted or led into new experiences . I agree that Jack knew what was going on within Ennis, but Ennis was'nt able to realize what was happening at first. Once it dawns on him what Jack is doing and his thoughts come tgether, he sees Jack obviously wants him in a sexual way, and Ennis sees the oppotunity to act on these feelings that he has for Jack. IMO repressed feelings he's had since he was a kid.
Perhaps the Jack is looked upon in this way is because he led and Ennis wanted to be led , needed to be led. Certainly Ennis wanted it, but he would never initiate it the way Jack did. Jack came across as more experienced in these matters. Once Jack led him to the point of no return, Ennis took it from there, Later he says I aint queer, He did'nt want to be put to the test like Earl and Ray were But... IMO he knew he was secretly MORE like them than not. MY 2 cents.
Jackster, we were posting at the same time and you took the words right out of my ah... keyboard? ;D 8) :c)
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Ennis. Young Ennis was shown this brutal murder scene and was seemingly exposed to the nature of their relationship even before this ugly scene. “Dad would pass a remark when he seen them” he recalled 15 years later when revealing this scene to Jack (in the SS). So, he learned at a young age about men living together with men, whether good or bad, but he was made aware of it as a phenomena. Do you think that this early knowledge and understanding (as negative as it was) of men living together was critical to his later concept of this as even a possibility?
Like Adam in the Garden, Ennis was shown something, but then forewarned not to touch it. It can make it very tempting. If Ennis had not been shown this “lifestyle” do think he would have been more or less receptive to Jack FNIT? Would he have rebuffed Jacks’ first advance, or more importantly, not sought any type of emotional relationship with Jack as he initiated SNIT?
Ennis certainly was AC/DC but seemed to get more satisfaction (in several ways) from his relationship with Jack than with Alma or Cassie. But many men with similar feelings would’ve punched out Jack’s lights if he’d made a similar move FNIT. Ennis, after thinking it over came to a different conclusion SNIT. Why?
It is the frut of knowledge, no? Perhaps the young Ennis already knew something deep inside him that resonated with the tale of Earl and Rich. Could he have known before this the full significance of Earl and Rich sharing a life together? After his father making sure that he see Earl's fate, I have no doubt that he did. And he probably understood the consequence:
de ligno autem scientiae boni et mali ne comedas in quocumque enim die comederis ex eo morte morieris
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de ligno autem scientiae boni et mali ne comedas in quocumque enim die comederis ex eo morte morieris
but also,
Dixit quoque Dominus Deus non est bonum esse hominem solum faciamus ei adiutorium similem sui
Poor, poor, Ennis.
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This is absolutly right! MG., Ennis did want Jack in FNIT. IMO, when he resisted , I feel he was saying Wait, wait, wait, instead of no, no,no, just tentative and nervous and fresh from a drunken stupor and a dead sleep He did'nt know if he was actually ready for this like right now. He never questioned why Jack was doing this , only a half-hearted, unconvincing whaterya doin?, did'nt run away or resist further after he got the picture..
Jack's insistence and suddeness threw Ennis off. Jack was straight forward, he was agressive but only in the sense that he was very insistent. This is NOT a bad thing, as someone like Ennis who is in denial has to prompted or led into new experiences . I agree that Jack knew what was going on within Ennis, but Ennis was'nt able to realize what was happening at first. Once it dawns on him what Jack is doing and his thoughts come tgether, he sees Jack obviously wants him in a sexual way, and Ennis sees the oppotunity to act on these feelings that he has for Jack. IMO repressed feelings he's had since he was a kid.
Perhaps the Jack is looked upon in this way is because he led and Ennis wanted to be led , needed to be led. Certainly Ennis wanted it, but he would never initiate it the way Jack did. Jack came across as more experienced in these matters. Once Jack led him to the point of no return, Ennis took it from there, Later he says I aint queer, He did'nt want to be put to the test like Earl and Ray were But... IMO he knew he was secretly MORE like them than not. MY 2 cents.
Ennis from that moment on follows Jack's lead, and Ennis follows Jack right to his room and to the shirts. Ennis needed Jack, he denied that fact, but Jack was his anchor, he was more himself with Jack than when not with him. Without Jack Ennis existed, with Jack he lived. With Alma and Cassie it was what came next, with Jack it was that moment, that minute, those few love filled days he had with him, and he lived for those days. And he held on to those days, not wanting to give them up. Brokeback was the garden, and he was to afraid to step out it. Does this make sense?
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but also,
Dixit quoque Dominus Deus non est bonum esse hominem solum faciamus ei adiutorium similem sui
Poor, poor, Ennis.
But I sometimes wonder whether Ennis would have chosen to be alone, if God gave him a say.
By analogy, was Jack the tempter in the Garden? Or was he himself the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? Perhaps he was both...
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I think he was both. He was the object of Ennis's temptation ,and at the same time used his knowledge to spark the embers to a flame to what they both knew and felt existed within themselves. For Ennis , IMO found it both good and evil, but there was an excitment for him within this.. what was just a desire became real for him. To use Jack's words ...Fast or slow Ennis secretly liked the direction Jack was going.
Eventually he got to "aint no reins on this one" Finally, an admission to Jack that his feelings for him were set in stone. It was, at last, spiritual to him, from the bottom of his soul he loved him. Would Ennis choose to never have had the experience? IMO? no, I think he was grateful to Jack for the fulfillment of that knowledge. Would'nt have traded it for the world.
Without Jack's help, Ennis probably would have never known true love or the freedom to realize his whole true being if only for a few moments a couple times a year. My take on it.
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Expelled from the mountain as from Eden by Aguirre and under the curse imposed on Adam and Eve, that they must toil and suffer for the rest of their lives, would either wish they had never met, never eaten the apple? How can they know? They can never return to what was the status quo before they met.They can't unknow what they've known. I like to think that each is glad they found the other, but on my worse days I sometimes wonder.
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But I sometimes wonder whether Ennis would have chosen to be alone, if God gave him a say.
I feel the same way thomas, and wonder too if he wouldn't be more comfortable with his animals.
In his own words:
"Wouldn't mind being out there"
Mankind had let him down too often. It wasn't unitl he was gone that he realized Jack was only one who didn't.
:\'(
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Why is it that Jack is look upon as the "Eve" that has Ennis tasting the fruit? The knowledge was in Ennis all along. That first night, Jack just took his hand brought it to him. Was this an aggressive act?
I didn't mean to imply that Jack was in the wrong, or that he tempted Ennis into doing something God forbade, as did Eve and Adam in the Bible. I was merely remarking that I believe Jack was more knowledgeable about sex and more experienced -- enough so that he knew what he liked and wanted it from Ennis. The fact that he took the leadership in FNIT doesn't mean anything other than that to me. I (^) (^) certainly am not condeming Jack or implying that he is the reason for their ill-fated love affair. (Just wanted to clear that up.)
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Jack never forced Ennis to do anything. This isolation in the "garden" was ideal for this process to take place.
When the time came , all systems were GO and both took advantage of these perfect conditions to express themselves. FNIT was Ennis's take on the matter, SNIT was Jack's, in both cases Jack and Ennis were willing participants IMO.
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But I sometimes wonder whether Ennis would have chosen to be alone, if God gave him a say.
By analogy, was Jack the tempter in the Garden? Or was he himself the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? Perhaps he was both...
IMO:
Like all of us, God did give Ennis a say, The knowledge of Good and Evil begs us to choose. Wasn't that the point. The fruit was there and along with it was a warning. Ennis didn't heed the warning and tasted the fruit, he made the choice. Now knowing the taste of the fruit, which was Jack, and his attraction, love and need for him, it all became real. That now he has to deal with the consequences of knowing the good and evil of his love, which is what his father showed him as a boy, and what Jack showed him as a man.
And if Ennis wanted to be alone, he would have returned to the sheep that very night.
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I think he was both. He was the object of Ennis's temptation ,and at the same time used his knowledge to spark the embers to a flame to what they both knew and felt existed within themselves. For Ennis , IMO found it both good and evil, but there was an excitment for him within this.. what was just a desire became real for him. To use Jack's words ...Fast or slow Ennis secretly liked the direction Jack was going.
Eventually he got to "aint no reins on this one" Finally, an admission to Jack that his feelings for him were set in stone. It was, at last, spiritual to him, from the bottom of his soul he loved him. Would Ennis choose to never have had the experience? IMO? no, I think he was grateful to Jack for the fulfillment of that knowledge. Would'nt have traded it for the world.
Without Jack's help, Ennis probably would have never known true love or the freedom to realize his whole true being if only for a few moments a couple times a year. My take on it.
Well said, aintfoolin. I do think that Ennis certainly woldn't choose otherwise, and that he was grateful to Jack for revealing who he was deep down. But as in the biblical counterpart, knowledge meant suffering -- the expulsion from the Garden of Eden. Ennis was certainly never the same again. In a way, it was a loss of innocence.
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Expelled from the mountain as from Eden by Aguirre and under the curse imposed on Adam and Eve, that they must toil and suffer for the rest of their lives, would either wish they had never met, never eaten the apple? How can they know? They can never return to what was the status quo before they met.They can't unknow what they've known. I like to think that each is glad they found the other, but on my worse days I sometimes wonder.
But this is knowledge, isn't it? One can try to forget, nut a part of that knowledge lies buried inside of us, never to be repudiated.
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I feel the same way thomas, and wonder too if he wouldn't be more comfortable with his animals.
In his own words:
"Wouldn't mind being out there"
Mankind had let him down too often. It wasn't unitl he was gone that he realized Jack was only one who didn't.
:\'(
The analogy of scriptural stewardship is -- incidentally -- echoed in that scene when Aguirre spies Ennis up the mountain caring for a sick sheep. :)
BBM certainly represented a kind of Eden fro Ennis -- away from the humanity that had let him down and put him down too often. The fact that Jack is the sole companion is telling -- together, they make the Garden of Eden what it is for both of them -- as what God and nature had intended them to be.
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IMO:
Like all of us, God did give Ennis a say, The knowledge of Good and Evil begs us to choose. Wasn't that the point. The fruit was there and along with it was a warning. Ennis didn't heed the warning and tasted the fruit, he made the choice. Now knowing the taste of the fruit, which was Jack, and his attraction, love and need for him, it all became real. That now he has to deal with the consequences of knowing the good and evil of his love, which is what his father showed him as a boy, and what Jack showed him as a man.
And if Ennis wanted to be alone, he would have returned to the sheep that very night.
Well, in a way, the hand of God forced the issue by bringing Jack into Ennis's life. The same way that Eve was "forced" upon Adam because God knew that it was good. But it is true: Jack was both companion and the fruit of knowledge. The choice of Ennis, therefore, was to give in to his innate feelings for Jack. So, in a way, it had the dichotomy of both free will and predestination: of choice versus fate.
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In "Paradise Lost" Eve tempts Adam into eating the apple which he does out of love for her and knowing that the consequences will be dreadful. The immediate result is that both feel lust and enjoy sex for pleasure rather than for its proper purpose, procreation, and next day can't face each other till they've made themselves clothes.
So for FNIT Jack is Eve, leading Ennis on, though Ennis does what he does willingly. SNIT in Milton's terms ( and accepting that he wouldn;t have approved of E and J anyway!) is quite different because it's not about unrestrained desire. Both I think realise after FNIT that there will be consequences - neither is eaxactly ready to face the other the next morning. By SNIT they've accepted the situation for the moment.
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In "Paradise Lost" Eve tempts Adam into eating the apple which he does out of love for her and knowing that the consequences will be dreadful. The immediate result is that both feel lust and enjoy sex for pleasure rather than for its proper purpose, procreation, and next day can't face each other till they've made themselves clothes.
So for FNIT Jack is Eve, leading Ennis on, though Ennis does what he does willingly. SNIT in Milton's terms ( and accepting that he wouldn;t have approved of E and J anyway!) is quite different because it's not about unrestrained desire. Both I think realise after FNIT that there will be consequences - neither is eaxactly ready to face the other the next morning. By SNIT they've accepted the situation for the moment.
Good analogy, WW. Although like in the Genesis story, they were perhaps only dimly aware of the depth of the consequences...
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Good analogy, WW. Although like in the Genesis story, they were perhaps only dimly aware of the depth of the consequences...
I believe you're right. It was that night that mattered, consequences were not thought of for that moment, only the desire for each other, the punishment, well, that's for later.
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I believe you're right. It was that night that mattered, consequences were not thought of for that moment, only the desire for each other, the punishment, well, that's for later.
And I still think that no matter what happened to them later, it was all worth it. People often warn that the "folly" of today will be paid for tomorrow. In certain instances, I have always believed that not taking heed to what the morrow may bring is justified. How many times have we thrown ourselves into relationships that required in due time a debt of tears? Given the hindsight and a chance to relive things, I am sure that many of us would nonetheless commit them again. I think this was the case with Ennis and Jack: even if they had the hindsight of what was to come, they probably would have left things unaltered.
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And I still think that no matter what happened to them later, it was all worth it. People often warn that the "folly" of today will be paid for tomorrow. In certain instances, I have always believed that not taking heed to what the morrow may bring is justified. How many times have we thrown ourselves into relationships that required in due time a debt of tears? Given the hindsight and a chance to relive things, I am sure that many of us would nonetheless commit them again. I think this was the case with Ennis and Jack: even if they had the hindsight of what was to come, they probably would have left things unaltered.
I agree with this wholeheartedly Tpe.
In the end I wonder if Jack felt the love he shared with Ennis was worth all the pain. Unlike the Genesis story ,there was no serpent whispering in Ennis's ear, but sins of his father were.
Jack was the forbidden apple, and Ennis's guilt and shame were actually his father's Not his. He is a product of what his father instilled, words and deeds.a child tricked out of free will and thought. but once Ennis took a small bite of what was forbidden in FNIT, certain adult truths were realized by him. How could something that feels so right be so wrong? Starts to question what he'd been taught, but the fear and shame owned him.
He could not seperate himself from it as a grown man of the next generation., and live his life outside the rules so ingrained in him ,yet at certain times, despite his fear, he broke free ie: SNIT, reunion,etc.( example) where Ennis sat on the log outside the tent and came to some kind of terms with whatever this thing was. This was deep. Throws another log on the fire, walks freely, hat in hand , into the arms of this magicman Jack Twist. Practically flew down those stairs to accept again what he knew was missing from his life for 4 years, eventually admitted that he could not rein in the feelings he had for Jack ,offering him Earl and Rich's story as the reason he held back.
He came to a realization that a part of Jack was part of him, and he did'nt want to live without him. Sometimes he was able to put aside his fear and take an even bigger bite of the apple and imo sealed his fate tighter to Jack. To their surprise, love had found them and in those moments, there were no consequences. I think Ennis found the freedom to love Jack but not the freedom to show it openly. If he could've gone full throttle, even Jack would be suprised I think. He would have smotherd Jack in all the love and happiness he could stand.. .MO
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And in any case the Garden of Eden contains within itself the seeds of its own destruction and is a place where perfection can't last - just like Brokeback Mountain. Eviction and confrontation with the hardships of real life are inevitable concomitants.
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Thanks aintfoolin and WW.
"Pride" has always been the sin that theologians over the centuries have pinned on Adam and Eve in the Garden -- the desire to be like God.
I don't know if this is applicable in the case of Ennis and Jack. In their case, it seemed more like they were fated, and already possessed of the knowledge that is the key to their own destruction. The knowledge of good and evil seemed to have preceded the eating of the fruit of knowledge, and it would seem that they spent the rest of their lives grappling with that knowledge.
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Exactly Tpe and WW. .."disobedience" can be added to the list of theological theories here as well, as the scriptures are interpreted in many different ways. They did have knowledge of what could happen if they acted upon their feelings but the temptation was too great, the need too strong, the love so deep, that neither one heeded the warnings. Jack, being stronger in his acceptance does his best to bring Ennis along to his way of thinking, being that the rules society had laid down concerning a relationship such as theirs was locking them down into a half-life experience. He sought a way to make them a little bit more free in the choices they had in their love for each other.
Call it a dream, or even a foolish dream, but Jack felt the reality of that dream, that this could happen. He invested 20 years of his life trying to make it so. The bottom line is nothing or no one had the right to keep his dream with Ennis from becoming reality. Amidst all the potential rejection, he fought against society defining what he and Ennis had while sometimes having to fight Ennis himself. This indeed wore him down but, I admired his strength of conviction. Sweet :c) My 2 cents.
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Exactly Tpe and WW. .."disobedience" can be added to the list of theological theories here as well, as the scriptures are interpreted in many different ways. They did have knowledge of what could happen if they acted upon their feelings but the temptation was too great, the need too strong, the love so deep, that neither one heeded the warnings. Jack, being stronger in his acceptance does his best to bring Ennis along to his way of thinking, being that the rules society had laid down concerning a relationship such as theirs was locking them down into a half-life experience. He sought a way to make them a little bit more free in the choices they had in their love for each other.
Call it a dream, or even a foolish dream, but Jack felt the reality of that dream, that this could happen. He invested 20 years of his life trying to make it so. The bottom line is nothing or no one had the right to keep his dream with Ennis from becoming reality. Amidst all the potential rejection, he fought against society defining what he and Ennis had while sometimes having to fight Ennis himself. This indeed wore him down but, I admired his strength of conviction. Sweet :c) My 2 cents.
I do thinmk that Jack anticipated the "fall from grace", if only to aspire for the divine. This was why he was more accepting, whereas Ennis remained rooted to the earth, Eden though it may have been to him.