Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: bbm on Dec 23, 2005, 07:54 PM
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Overall, I like the movie a lot but at times I felt the movie was a little bit slow. Somehow I felt that the air time for Ennis daughters is not necessary. It won't really change the story too much if those scenes weren't in the movie.
What do you think? Any scene that you don't like?
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I think the scenes with the daughters are necessary because it shows that Ennis does have something to look forward to. His daughters always loved him, especially Alma Jr., despite him not being around much, and not saying much to them. I think at the end of the movie the only thing we have to cling to, is that Ennis will be able to experience some love with his daughters and that they will bring him some happiness.
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To answer the questions there aren't really any scenes I don't like, I would prefer there being a few more actually, or at least some of the scenes being longer than they are.
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I think the scenes with the daughters are necessary because it shows that Ennis does have something to look forward to. His daughters always loved him, especially Alma Jr., despite him not being around much, and not saying much to them. I think at the end of the movie the only thing we have to cling to, is that Ennis will be able to experience some love with his daughters and that they will bring him some happiness.
I also think the daughters are necessary - If there is one emotional connection for Ennis other than Jack, it would be his daughters.
Also, the growth of daughters makes it easier for the audience to get an idea how much time has passed by. To some extent, Alma Jr. is the time in this movie. Without them, it would have been difficult to cut 20 years of relationship into pieces. Just my two cents.
I love the scene where Ennis and Alma were arguing outside when Elma was leaving for work. After that, Ennis said to the girls -
You girls want push or something --- and the girls innocently says NO.
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I think that we need Ennis' ndaughters...they are missing in the short story...it was easy to add more for the movie...well done to the script writers!
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This is easy...I'll move conversation away from the daughters as I agree with earlier comments made about connecting Ennis to family (even despite the tragic relationship with Jack). His daughters provide hope that Ennis will NOT be lonely even after Jack.
Clearly the worst scene/s were those of Jack Twist in Texas. All of the characters, including Lureen's father were so sterotypically Texan...what with bolo ties, large-sized belt buckles, pot belly, big hair, on and on. I live in Texas and was somewhat offended that Ang Lee did not take more time and attention to be less JR Ewing about these scenes. While the story follows with Jack marrying into Texas wealth, I think the purple crush velvet dining room chairs and diamond pinky rings could have been more subtle. Thankfully this was not soooooo distracting as to take away from the depth and spirit of the film. I can only thank the editing room for that.
stationbbm
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This is easy...I'll move conversation away from the daughters as I agree with earlier comments made about connecting Ennis to family (even despite the tragic relationship with Jack). His daughters provide hope that Ennis will NOT be lonely even after Jack.
Clearly the worst scene/s were those of Jack Twist in Texas. All of the characters, including Lureen's father were so sterotypically Texan...what with bolo ties, large-sized belt buckles, pot belly, big hair, on and on. I live in Texas and was somewhat offended that Ang Lee did not take more time and attention to be less JR Ewing about these scenes. While the story follows with Jack marrying into Texas wealth, I think the purple crush velvet dining room chairs and diamond pinky rings could have been more subtle. Thankfully this was not soooooo distracting as to take away from the depth and spirit of the film. I can only thank the editing room for that.
stationbbm
Good point and I agree that stereotypes are really the shortcomings. I can also add the 4th July scene.
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I didn't like the "yee hawing" that Jack did. It was too corny.
When Ennis shot the Elk , Jack could have just shoved Ennis and said "Phuckin' A" or some such. And the same goes for the clowning when ENnis said at the campfire, "my daddy thought all rodeo cowboys are phuckups"
Do cowboys really yee haw?
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Coyote: Let me just affirm to you. I live in the heart of cowboy-dom in Fort Worth, Texas. They DO NOT yee-haw, particularly in the fashion that Mr. Gyllenhaal tried so nobly to imitate but fell desperately short. I concur. His yee-hawing was not at all a realistic reaction. I just wonder how many takes Lee made him go through...and finally shook his head and said, "Whatever" Then again, perhaps Lee doesn't really have much familiarization with how cowboys playfully react....It's the only part of the film that I really do cringe when he does that.
stationbbm
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It's funny I found that scene the only slightly awkward moment. but oh well,
maybe in the 60's they yee hawed. I dont know...the scene ended well.
Also these guys weren't going to bond over reading New yorker cartoons so maybe
this would have worked for them.
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Toadily:
You're a riot. I still think the yee-hawing could have been something a little bit different without changing up the mood of the scene too much. My only criticism is that it just didn't come off too natural for Jake. He could have maybe said something clever or funny and gotten to the same end. Just my two cents.
stationbbm
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JR Ewing??? I must've missed something in my first and only viewing, so far. Who in this movie even came close to the evil, manipulative, murderous, calculating bastard that JR was? Jack's father-in-law may have been an ignorant ( I loved the scene when Jack called daddy ignorant! LOL), ill-mannered jackass, but surely he couldn't hold a candle to the malevolent JR!
I may be way too simple-minded about this, but the scene I had the most trouble with was the one of Jack's demise. Even the thought of it still makes me shudder. I can imagine that this was one of the things Annie Proulx was referring to in an interview when she said,
"While I was working on this story, I was occasionally close to tears. I felt guilty that their lives were so difficult, yet there was nothing I could do about it. It couldn't end any other way."
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Apollonos:
My reference to JR Ewing was to only infer that all of the Texas scenes were very stereotypical of the 1970's Texas fervor that went on when JR/Dallas was the rave back then. Big hair, big belt buckles, big belly, lavish cars, big money, on and on ....the scenes in BBM were fraught with this stereotypical Texas big, bold and brash theme...and that's not what Texas really is...I live in Texas and the film stretches this way out of proportion. In no way was I trying to equate the evil, malevolent JR with any character...rather the shallow way they portrayed the Texas theme in the film. That's all.
stationbbm
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Hmm, I think the "yee-haw" in the scene where he went nuts pretending to be a rodeo cowboy fit - did you see his exaggerated expression (if only to get Ennis to laugh, aww :)) I thought he was taking Ennis' comment about how his daddy thought "all rodeo cowboys was ****ups" and running with it, to show how ridiculous it was (remember his drawn-out line, with a purposeful drawl "waaavin' to the girls in the stands!" ?) and yes, to get Ennis to laugh. (which we see *how many times?* oh yeah, just that once :P) and if it came across a little awkward, it was cause he wasn't from Texas, and I thought it seemed natural that it wasn't a perfect, authentic performance. ;)
My least favorite scene, I would have to say, is when Jack's trying to make suggestions that might make Ennis happier and one of them is moving to a different state, "what about Texas?" I always cringe when I hear that cause it's so blatant and so desperate and you feel so sorry for him, especially considering Ennis' somewhat callous reaction (yeah, I know they know how to push each other's buttons, but still...!)
I also don't like it when Ennis starts punching that guy in the truck who almost hits him after Alma has outed him at Thanksgiving. I feel horrible for him and understand why he does it, but it makes me cringe, too, cause I don't want to see him beating up innocent people. :-[
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Hmm, I think the "yee-haw" in the scene where he went nuts pretending to be a rodeo cowboy fit - did you see his exaggerated expression (if only to get Ennis to laugh, aww :)) I thought he was taking Ennis' comment about how his daddy thought "all rodeo cowboys was ****ups" and running with it, to show how ridiculous it was (remember his drawn-out line, with a purposeful drawl "waaavin' to the girls in the stands!" ?) and yes, to get Ennis to laugh. (which we see *how many times?* oh yeah, just that once :P) and if it came across a little awkward, it was cause he wasn't from Texas, and I thought it seemed natural that it wasn't a perfect, authentic performance. ;)
My least favorite scene, I would have to say, is when Jack's trying to make suggestions that might make Ennis happier and one of them is moving to a different state, "what about Texas?" I always cringe when I hear that cause it's so blatant and so desperate and you feel so sorry for him, especially considering Ennis' somewhat callous reaction (yeah, I know they know how to push each other's buttons, but still...!)
I also don't like it when Ennis starts punching that guy in the truck who almost hits him after Alma has outed him at Thanksgiving. I feel horrible for him and understand why he does it, but it makes me cringe, too, cause I don't want to see him beating up innocent people. :-[
I have a hard time with the "why not Texas" move, scene too, I know Ennis could have been nicer about it the look of hurt on
Jack's face is so obvious. Ugh.
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Briefly, more people in Texas and throughout the South sound/act like the stereotypes we saw in the Texas scenes and in the Fireworks scene..there were only two "bad guys" anyway in the Fireworks scene. The scenes with the daughters I think allow Ennis to reclaim the loving parental/familial relationship he missed with his parents and apparently brother and sister. Alma, Jr. is certainly the later version of her Mom in Ennis's. As for Jack...from the showing off on the horse, to the yeehawing and the physical over reaction to Ennis killing the Elk-Jack is trying to pull Ennis out..Jack is as desperate for a connection as Ennis is..where Ennis shuts down, Jack takes the opposite approach and reaches out too far...chatting up the rodeo clown in the bar, the Mexico thing, too. I certainly am not complaining about others who have problems with certain scenes though. Isnt it great to have such a wonderful film to discuss?
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What did the Jack trying to buy the clown a drink scene mean? Was he hitting on him or just trying to
get known or something? I wasn't clear on that.
I did notice in contrast to all his outgoing actions, Jack didn't approach Lureen.
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Briefly, more people in Texas and throughout the South sound/act like the stereotypes we saw in the Texas scenes and in the Fireworks scene..there were only two "bad guys" anyway in the Fireworks scene. The scenes with the daughters I think allow Ennis to reclaim the loving parental/familial relationship he missed with his parents and apparently brother and sister. Alma, Jr. is certainly the later version of her Mom in Ennis's. As for Jack...from the showing off on the horse, to the yeehawing and the physical over reaction to Ennis killing the Elk-Jack is trying to pull Ennis out..Jack is as desperate for a connection as Ennis is..where Ennis shuts down, Jack takes the opposite approach and reaches out too far...chatting up the rodeo clown in the bar, the Mexico thing, too. I certainly am not complaining about others who have problems with certain scenes though. Isnt it great to have such a wonderful film to discuss?
Great observation, bnjmn3 and welcome! I am also not complaining and this movie definitely is worth discussing.
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Apollonos:
My reference to JR Ewing was to only infer that all of the Texas scenes were very stereotypical of the 1970's Texas fervor that went on when JR/Dallas was the rave back then. Big hair, big belt buckles, big belly, lavish cars, big money, on and on ....the scenes in BBM were fraught with this stereotypical Texas big, bold and brash theme...and that's not what Texas really is...I live in Texas and the film stretches this way out of proportion. In no way was I trying to equate the evil, malevolent JR with any character...rather the shallow way they portrayed the Texas theme in the film. That's all.
stationbbm-
Okay. I missed the fact that they carried the "over the top" Texas look all the way through the movie. I wonder if they did that deliberately, for some reason, or if it was just an oversight.
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I did not like the fireworks scene...i cannot explain why, it just made me uncomfortable!
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Well Ennis is obviously very frustrated and when he is, the only way he could go over his frustration is violence, there are some more scenes about this. He has very limiteds speaking skills but a lot of guts. I am not saying he is right... he is kind of under educated. I love him like he his. Don't we all? Oh! Heath! I wish you the Golden Globe and the Oscar!
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Well Ennis is obviously very frustrated and when he is, the only way he could go over his frustration is violence, there are some more scenes about this. He has very limiteds speaking skills but a lot of guts. I am not saying he is right... he is kind of under educated. I love him like he his. Don't we all? Oh! Heath! I wish you the Golden Globe and the Oscar!
Speaking of Ennis's violence, I really got uncomfortable about his *abuse* toward Alma after 4th viewing. I found it disturbing to watch in the scene when Alma confronted Ennis about fishing trip. My heart was just pounding so fast. As much as I cherish the romance between Ennis and Jack, Ennis is sexiest to me and I really feel sorry about Alma.
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Agree with you. He is so MUCH frustrated about his longings for Jack, he has nothing else but violence as an exhaust.. Poor Alma... She really loved her Ennis but got also very frustrated, don't forget, these are people with almost no education, no words... not to mention Ennis drinking... There is a lot of drinking in this movie, rivers of beer and whiskey. That was more obvious in Annie's novel, for example the motel room scene, smell of cigarette smoke, sweat, sperm and whiskey. Drinking leads often to violence... or accidental sex? Well we start over to the beginning of the story then.
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Speaking of Ennis's violence, I really got uncomfortable about his *abuse* toward Alma after 4th viewing. I found it disturbing to watch in the scene when Alma confronted Ennis about fishing trip. My heart was just pounding so fast. As much as I cherish the romance between Ennis and Jack, Ennis is sexiest to me and I really feel sorry about Alma.
I think Ennis' reaction in that scene was caused by fear. It seemed to me that Ennis could never forget the memory of those old cowboys that were murdered for being gay. Seeing such a terrible sight at the tender age of nine scarred Ennis for life. That fear was what kept him from buying a ranch with Jack, and I think that when Alma outed him, it brought that memory to the surface, and Ennis was terrified. He never had a large repertoire of reactions to stress to begin with, and violence was probably the one that came easiest. I don't think that scene could have turned out any other way.
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??? After seeing it a second time I guess Apollonos is just right. There is no longer a secret and Ennis might be scared to death to react with such violence. Alma is pregnant and Ennis is about to hit her... This is one of the scene I wathed the more carefully on this second viewing. That was rough but damned good acting!
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??? After seeing it a second time I guess Apollonos is just right. There is no longer a secret and Ennis might be scared to death to react with such violence. Alma is pregnant and Ennis is about to hit her... This is one of the scene I wathed the more carefully on this second viewing. That was rough but damned good acting!
It is definitely excellent acting and Michelle Williams - what can I say? She was great. The more I see the movie, the harder for me to digest that scene.
And yes, Apollonos had a very good explanation. Thanks!
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On later viewings I don't lilke the way Ennis treats Alma. I mean he has the odacity to say
"once burned" to her about the divorce when he said "if you don't want my kids I would
be happy to leave you alone" and all she said was she'd have them if they could be supported.
I mean she deserved to be loved, and at least I would hope he would understand that.
And even though we love this scene, and I hope I am not on sacred ground here, but kissing Jack right in eye shot of her like that was...well sort of a dig in a way.
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On later viewings I don't lilke the way Ennis treats Alma. I mean he has the audacity to say
"once burned" to her about the divorce when he said "if you don't want my kids I would
be happy to leave you alone" and all she said was she'd have them if they could be supported.
I mean she deserved to be loved, and at least I would hope he would understand that.
And even though we love this scene, and I hope I am not on sacred ground here, but kissing Jack right in eye shot of her like that was...well sort of a dig in a way.
Sigh. I think this is one of the tragedies that the movie is trying to get across. I agree with you that Alma deserved to be loved, just as Jack and Ennis deserved to be together and live happily ever after; but society put all of these people into a terrible, no-win situation (or, dare I say it, a God-damned bitch of an unsatisfactory situation!). Jack and Ennis both felt forced by society to maintain the appearance of a traditional, heterosexual marriage. The only alternative was to risk being brutally murdered, as Ennis was forced to witness at a young age.
I also agree that the kissing scene right out in plain sight was not very bright, but keep in mind that Annie Proulx described Jack and Ennis as "uneducated, inarticulate boys", not Harvard grads! Considering that they hadn't seen each other for some time, their reaction should have come as no surprise. They weren't thinking with their heads (not the big ones, anyway).
As for the bedroom scene when Ennis and Alma were talking about kids, I think by that time, both of them were feeling frustrated and unhappy with the whole situation; but there was just no easy way out, and there lies the rub. I think their poverty and desperation led both of them to say unkind things to each other.
It's no wonder that Annie Proulx said of the story:
"While I was working on this story, I was occasionally close to tears. I felt guilty that their lives were so difficult, yet there was nothing I could do about it. It couldn't end any other way."
That's why BBM is taking the country, and the world, by storm: it's a classic tragedy, with the star-crossed lovers doomed from the start by forces beyond their control. The Bard, himself, would have been proud to pen such a story! "For never was a tale of more woe ...."
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What did the Jack trying to buy the clown a drink scene mean? Was he hitting on him or just trying to
get known or something? I wasn't clear on that.
I did notice in contrast to all his outgoing actions, Jack didn't approach Lureen.
Hi
I think Jack was hitting on the clown and the clown was aware of this - you subsequently see the clown tell his friends what had happened, this could so easily have led to Jack being beaten up. I think this scene is there to denote an extra element of risk-taking to Jack's need for male company.
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What did the Jack trying to buy the clown a drink scene mean? Was he hitting on him or just trying to
get known or something? I wasn't clear on that.
I did notice in contrast to all his outgoing actions, Jack didn't approach Lureen.
Hi
I think Jack was hitting on the clown and the clown was aware of this - you subsequently see the clown tell his friends what had happened, this could so easily have led to Jack being beaten up. I think this scene is there to denote an extra element of risk-taking to Jack's need for male company.
I totally agree with you, there is a thread here about this. that scene had significance, Jack's risk taking the potential danger in it.
Then soon after he meets Lureen so it explains more why he would jump into that.
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The scene I found awkward was the tranisition of the scenes beteen Jack and Lureen having sex in the car to her having their child - I thought the passage of time jarred here. I know it's hard to depict this and that they have 20 years to show on screen, but this just didnt feel right - this is the only scene I wasnt keen on, so thats pretty good going in my book! :) Did anyone else think so?
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The scene I found awkward was the tranisition of the scenes beteen Jack and Lureen having sex in the car to her having their child - I thought the passage of time jarred here. I know it's hard to depict this and that they have 20 years to show on screen, but this just didnt feel right - this is the only scene I wasnt keen on, so thats pretty good going in my book! :) Did anyone else think so?
It does fastfoward a little bit. I didn't feel anything about the transition but in one of my viewing sitting next to a group of 4 ladies - when the transition happened, one said to the other - oh? he is married too?
Perhaps it serves a purpose - remember Jack said to Ennis - "as far as our marriage goes, we could do it over the phone."
The transition could just mean that -- insignificance.
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back to the scene when Elma confronts Ennis in the kitchen. It is uncomfortable to watch the almost unleashed violence (but - I really don't think Ennis would ever really hit her). For some reason I feel that not only is Ennis freaked out about her knowing - I also think there is a bit of protection there for his relationship with Jack. Ennis says something like "you don't know nothin about it." It may be wishful thinking on my part, but upon my second viewing the violence feels like it may stem from alma making what he and jack have "nasty." Not that he would fess up to it, but I think he has come to terms with it to some degree, and isn't about to give it up.
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My least favorite scenes were with Ennis' waitress. They just didn't seem to serve any purpose that I could see.
Oh, and about Jack/Lureen and how fast it goes from them making out in the back seat to her with the baby. I think that may have been to show that Jack got her pregnant right away and they had to have a "shotgun wedding." That's just my gut feeling, but it would also explain why Jack's father-in-law resents Jack so much.
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My least favorite scenes were with Ennis' waitress. They just didn't seem to serve any purpose that I could see.
Oh, and about Jack/Lureen and how fast it goes from them making out in the back seat to her with the baby. I think that may have been to show that Jack got her pregnant right away and they had to have a "shotgun wedding." That's just my gut feeling, but it would also explain why Jack's father-in-law resents Jack so much.
Interesting point! Never tough of it. Thanks for sharing!
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If you mean the scene were Ennis is waiting for Jack (second) encounter, I think it is a very important scene!! Have you ever saw Ennis so stiff and involved as in this situation: the moment of dream coming true is arriving!
I didn't found any useless scene... i liked all the film... cant found any scene I dislike
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This is easy...I'll move conversation away from the daughters as I agree with earlier comments made about connecting Ennis to family (even despite the tragic relationship with Jack). His daughters provide hope that Ennis will NOT be lonely even after Jack.
Clearly the worst scene/s were those of Jack Twist in Texas. All of the characters, including Lureen's father were so sterotypically Texan...what with bolo ties, large-sized belt buckles, pot belly, big hair, on and on. I live in Texas and was somewhat offended that Ang Lee did not take more time and attention to be less JR Ewing about these scenes. While the story follows with Jack marrying into Texas wealth, I think the purple crush velvet dining room chairs and diamond pinky rings could have been more subtle. Thankfully this was not soooooo distracting as to take away from the depth and spirit of the film. I can only thank the editing room for that.
stationbbm
Another movie with fireworks is "Big Eden". Well at least there wasn't a champagne bottle going off, but it had a somewhat similar effect on me.
Good point and I agree that stereotypes are really the shortcomings. I can also add the 4th July scene.
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What did the Jack trying to buy the clown a drink scene mean? Was he hitting on him or just trying to
get known or something? I wasn't clear on that.
I did notice in contrast to all his outgoing actions, Jack didn't approach Lureen.
Hi,
I asked that same question on IMDB and got some good answers. There are two different opinions: One group thinks that the scene is there to show how isolated Jack felt most of his life, how "straight" guys reacted to him and gave him a hard time. But without openly rejecting him for being gay. And that he was just trying to be friendly, have a chat. The other group thinks he was trying to put the moves on the guy and felt really threatened by his reactions (the way he whispered to the other guys around the pool table, maybe telling them jack was a "fag" or something). Whatever you think, it seems to be clear that this scene is meant to make us understand the reasons why Jack wanted to marry and lead a "normal" life. Sheer and utter loneliness.
hope this helps you,
monicita
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What did the Jack trying to buy the clown a drink scene mean? Was he hitting on him or just trying to
get known or something? I wasn't clear on that.
I did notice in contrast to all his outgoing actions, Jack didn't approach Lureen.
Hi,
I asked that same question on IMDB and got some good answers. There are two different opinions: One group thinks that the scene is there to show how isolated Jack felt most of his life, how "straight" guys reacted to him and gave him a hard time. But without openly rejecting him for being gay. And that he was just trying to be friendly, have a chat. The other group thinks he was trying to put the moves on the guy and felt really threatened by his reactions (the way he whispered to the other guys around the pool table, maybe telling them jack was a "fag" or something). Whatever you think, it seems to be clear that this scene is meant to make us understand the reasons why Jack wanted to marry and lead a "normal" life. Sheer and utter loneliness.
hope this helps you,
monicita
In the screenplay, the 'clown' is disturbed by Jack's look and a certain 'frisson'. The implication is clear. Jack was giving him very suggestive looks. And the way Gyllenhaal does this is pure magic: his eyes widen a bit and the mouth twists ever so slightly beneath a smile -- suggesting a strange hunger.
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It's a toss up between two:
(1) When Jack tried to buy the rodeo clown a beer, and
(2) When Jack went to Mexico for a rendevous in the shadows.
Only one of them would have been necessary to me, but that's just me. ::)
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I would say when Ennis takes some serious beating on the street after he left Alma's house on Thanksgiving.
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I do not know others life experiences outside of North Carolina, but the Fireworks scene and the Thanksgiving scene (both of them) seem realistic to me..I have seen these people and these situations before.
I don't like that the 2nd tent scene ("It's alright..") is too short and feels rushed. Longer, longer, longer....
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I do not know others life experiences outside of North Carolina, but the Fireworks scene and the Thanksgiving scene (both of them) seem realistic to me..I have seen these people and these situations before.
I don't like that the 2nd tent scene ("It's alright..") is too short and feels rushed. Longer, longer, longer....
The 2nd tent scene too sho
I don't know.
This movie is haunting me for so long. I believe now Ang Lee's sensible eye was just right. There is not too many nor not enough. It's a so well crafted masterpiece. I woudn't change anything.
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A question for all of you: When you say that you "dislike" scenes, does that mean, you dislike them because they are not true to the movie or to nature or whatever, or because they hurt?
monicita
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The other group thinks he was trying to put the moves on the guy and felt really threatened by his reactions (the way he whispered to the other guys around the pool table, maybe telling them jack was a "fag" or something).
I think its more of "Do you know that guy? Does he buy you beer too? Who is he?"
A guy stranger buys you beer is weird, usually with no good reason, especially when Jack is not exactly rich.
As for Lureen... A lot of guys hit on her, except Jack and thus caught her interest.
Ang Lee did mention that Lureen is a predator. Maybe a self-centered, egotistic power craving woman.
(Sounds like Desperate Housewives) ;)
I laughed when she approached Jack, "What you waiting for cowboy? Your mating call?" :D
If I am Jack, I would like, "Eeeks!" :-[
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The scene I found the weirdest was the part where Jack was peeling a potato and Ennis was washing up naked unfocused in the background.
I had expected Jack to turn a little and to peek a little at the corner of his eye while pretending to peel the potato. But his eyelids were so low that it seems that he was concentrating on the potato.
Did anyone able to read into the relevance of that scene?
Or was it a simple interpretation of cleaning and peeing (in the next scene) in close promixity and no borders.... ;)
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I thought a lot about the potato scene, as well. In one review somebody says that Jack can't keep his eyes off Ennis, even though he is trying to seem to be concentrating on the potato. Maybe it's that: The beauty of the scene is, that we are expecting Jack to turn, slide his eyes, but we can see, in the way he is concentrating on the stupid potato, as if it were a mantra, how much rather he would look at Ennis. When we see it like that, the scene becomes an incredibly potent image of forbidden love/lust. Objects (potatoes and others, shirts for example) become laden with significance, they would not otherwise have, if this love/lust could express itself openly.
monicita
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The frustrating thing is we couldn't tell!! :-\ All we know that the scene was inserted there for a purpose and we WOULD like to think that Jack was "privately spying / stalking" his partner. Unless Jack was thinking of peeling Ennis layer by layer? :-X God forbid what Jack thinks!
Concerned women of America are watching! :P
Brings me back the time when we are infatuated with somebody (Princess Fiona and Sir Justin Timberlake ;D) that we would daydream and possibly peeling potatoes at the same time! haha! :D
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During the potato scene, Jack has trouble breathing and swallowing and seems to almost lose the cigarette between his lips...Jake is incredible here and throughout the film.
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I'd say Jack was concentrating really, REALLY hard on peeling that potato! He had feelings for Jack at that point, but wasn't ready to show his cards, so to speak.
The first time I saw BBM, I didn't really care for the scenes with Cassie, but on further viewings, I can see why those scenes are important. They show Ennis' inability to maintain relationships with women, and they needed the scenes with Cassie to demonstate that it wasn't just an Ennis/Alma thing, it was an Ennis/women/Jack thing. So in that sense, even though those scenes aren't my favorites, I can see their importance.
camom
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The scene where Ennis & Jack meet for the last time. I can't say I dislike, it's one of the best but their relation ending with a fight makes me so uncomfortable. And Ennis threatening Jack to
death means he is not only sad when Jack dies but also feels some terrible remorses.
...finally I like this oh so necessary scene! Wrong subjest for this post? ;)
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During the potato scene, Jack has trouble breathing and swallowing and seems to almost lose the cigarette between his lips...Jake is incredible here and throughout the film.
I went back to the scene and saw it a few times.... Jack was definitely sneaking a peak at Ennis washing himself. It is very very subtle but at the split moment when he heard the pants drop and the belt cling, his eyeballs turned to the direction of Ennis.
And Jack is not very good with his can opener is he or was he distracted by Ennis? ;)
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And Jack is not very good with his can opener is he or was he distracted by Ennis?
Good one! :P
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And Jack is not very good with his can opener is he or was he distracted by Ennis?
Good one! :P
LOL. I always loved the way Jack was so confident about his being good with a can opener and then losing it completely when he tries to open a can. Very funny. But in a way also very telling. I think, what Jack is best at is loving, not living (at least not in the usual sense of organizing his life).
monicita
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2 scenes I didn't like:
1st was way at the beginning - Jack is leaning against his truck in Aguirre's parking lot. He looks for all the world like a Halsted Street (Chicago Boystown) poser. I though, "oh no, I hope this isn't what the movie is going to be like". That evaporated fast, tho.
2nd is near the end when Ennis is in the phone booth talking to Lureen. I thought his reaction was pretty flat and most un-Ennis-like. I expected something more powerful - like a punch thru the glass or some animal-like moan.
This is all relative, tho. 99.9% of the movie is beautifully crafted.
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And Jack is not very good with his can opener is he or was he distracted by Ennis?
Good one! :P
LOL. I always loved the way Jack was so confident about his being good with a can opener and then losing it completely when he tries to open a can. Very funny. But in a way also very telling. I think, what Jack is best at is loving, not living (at least not in the usual sense of organizing his life).
monicita
God... I remember I was the only one chuckling out loud in the cinema, nobody caught that joke?? :-[ .
However I was thinking, "Jack, why did you press that silly lid?" ::) :D
But being cheeky Jack, I thought ha it must be one of those little silly things to catch Ennis' attention, at least to get him to smile. :)
One of those endearing moments.
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2 scenes I didn't like:
1st was way at the beginning - Jack is leaning against his truck in Aguirre's parking lot. He looks for all the world like a Halsted Street (Chicago Boystown) poser. I though, "oh no, I hope this isn't what the movie is going to be like". That evaporated fast, tho.
2nd is near the end when Ennis is in the phone booth talking to Lureen. I thought his reaction was pretty flat and most un-Ennis-like. I expected something more powerful - like a punch thru the glass or some animal-like moan.
This is all relative, tho. 99.9% of the movie is beautifully crafted.
1) I thought Jack was already flirting with Ennis then... But I guess the two of them didn't know if both of them are going to selected for the job, if they were, Ennis would probably not be so cold.
Jack said, it was cut in the movie but it was in the trailer, "If we are going to work together, we better start drinking together."
2) Notice how Ennis gripped the handset close to his heart. Fear has gripped him at this point and he felt kinda numb and a little frightened.
I remember my eariler tom-cat wasn't doing so well after a big fight. He returned after two weeks, struggling. He wasn't meowing and couldn't eat much. Took him to the vet the following day and the vet said its best to put him down. At that time I didn't know what was going on even though I saw him stick his tongue out after the lethal injection. I sat outside the vet for a few hours, feeling numb... It was only until I got home at night and suddenly I cried for hours...
I can understand why Ennis didn't react as we would expect him to until the shirt scene which was the trigger point and I thought it was also the closure point for him to accept the reality.
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2 scenes I didn't like:
1st was way at the beginning - Jack is leaning against his truck in Aguirre's parking lot. He looks for all the world like a Halsted Street (Chicago Boystown) poser. I though, "oh no, I hope this isn't what the movie is going to be like". That evaporated fast, tho.
Seems Jack Twist had some idea of what he wanted here and wasnt afraid to go after it.
2nd is near the end when Ennis is in the phone booth talking to Lureen. I thought his reaction was pretty flat and most un-Ennis-like. I expected something more powerful - like a punch thru the glass or some animal-like moan.
He is out in public..right across from the Post Office--not a place for Ennis to be himself.
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two scenes I didn't like in the trailer with that schmuck boss and when Ennis gets the postcard backed marked deceased, I LOST IT.
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The buying the rodeo clown a drink scene made me uncomfortable because of the subtlety of the fear....I do not think it completely obvious that the clown dude returns to the group at the pool table and directly says something about Jack....Thing is, he doesn't HAVE to do that for Jack to be afraid...He let something out, it was rejected (I felt I saw that in the way the clown paused and looked back at him while still talking, very well done)...and Jack felt, it seemed to me, an upswelling of shame...Like we saw when Aguirre said he had no work for the likes of Jack....The sense that he's gone too far and now he's in trouble. That seems reinforced when we see Jack's miserably stiff and judgmental dad, the mocking tone about Jack's fervent desires.
Also, there's a bit in the big final confrontation scene the last time Ennis and Jack are together, Ennis is moving up to Jack and turning and the way his mouth is moving doesn't match the words we're hearing...It's a split second that looks dubbed and I've grown to hate it.
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2 scenes I didn't like:
1st was way at the beginning - Jack is leaning against his truck in Aguirre's parking lot. He looks for all the world like a Halsted Street (Chicago Boystown) poser. I though, "oh no, I hope this isn't what the movie is going to be like". That evaporated fast, tho.
2nd is near the end when Ennis is in the phone booth talking to Lureen. I thought his reaction was pretty flat and most un-Ennis-like. I expected something more powerful - like a punch thru the glass or some animal-like moan.
This is all relative, tho. 99.9% of the movie is beautifully crafted.
1) I thought Jack was already flirting with Ennis then... But I guess the two of them didn't know if both of them are going to selected for the job, if they were, Ennis would probably not be so cold.
Jack said, it was cut in the movie but it was in the trailer, "If we are going to work together, we better start drinking together."
2) Notice how Ennis gripped the handset close to his heart. Fear has gripped him at this point and he felt kinda numb and a little frightened.
I remember my eariler tom-cat wasn't doing so well after a big fight. He returned after two weeks, struggling. He wasn't meowing and couldn't eat much. Took him to the vet the following day and the vet said its best to put him down. At that time I didn't know what was going on even though I saw him stick his tongue out after the lethal injection. I sat outside the vet for a few hours, feeling numb... It was only until I got home at night and suddenly I cried for hours...
I can understand why Ennis didn't react as we would expect him to until the shirt scene which was the trigger point and I thought it was also the closure point for him to accept the reality.
Wow, cybernaut, thanks for your insights - esp #2 - its all clear to me now. I remember when my father died I did not react at all - until about 4 months later when my then partner found me sitting in the shower sobbing. His reaction was one of relief - he said: "damn, its about time".
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JerBear418720: Sorry to hear about your dad. What was the trigger point did you remember?
I remember my uncle wasn't in good shape when I was in the army. My mum took me and my sis one time during off-duty to see my shrunken uncle in the hospital, unconscious due to some illness even the doctors couldn't figure it out. Then suddenly one day, just like as he slipped into unconsciousness, he slipped away without saying goodbye.
I always thought it was one of the cruelest form of departure God can give.
On another story, I had witnessed an old guy fell from a stairwell of a double-decker bus, broke his shoulders and was sent home after the doctors found nothing wrong on him. He had a fun time with his family and grand-kids until I found out on an evening tabloid two days later, he had a brain haemorrhage and died. However he had the chance to say goodbye to his family and left quietly. :'(
That story has always haunted me... that I prayed to God that I treat people well and also I have the chance to bid farewell to my loved ones before I leave. Thus I can feel what Ennis felt... that he nor Jack didn't have the chance to say goodbye and that's where it breaks my heart. :'(
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JerBear418720: Sorry to hear about your dad. What was the trigger point did you remember?
I remember my uncle wasn't in good shape when I was in the army. My mum took me and my sis one time during off-duty to see my shrunken uncle in the hospital, unconscious due to some illness even the doctors couldn't figure it out. Then suddenly one day, just like as he slipped into unconsciousness, he slipped away without saying goodbye.
I always thought it was one of the cruelest form of departure God can give.
On another story, I had witnessed an old guy fell from a stairwell of a double-decker bus, broke his shoulders and was sent home after the doctors found nothing wrong on him. He had a fun time with his family and grand-kids until I found out on an evening tabloid two days later, he had a brain haemorrhage and died. However he had the chance to say goodbye to his family and left quietly. :'(
That story has always haunted me... that I prayed to God that I treat people well and also I have the chance to bid farewell to my loved ones before I leave. Thus I can feel what Ennis felt... that he nor Jack didn't have the chance to say goodbye and that's where it breaks my heart. :'(
My Dad had cancer and was ill for 6 months. My mother cared for him in their home for the last 4. We had a whole battalion of people that would come over to be with him when she went to work - my day was Sunday. He and I had never gotten along, but in those 4 months of Sundays, we not only cleared the air but really got to know one another. I discovered the amazing human being that was hidden behind alcoholism for many years (he did finally quit the year he died).
The morning I lost it in the shower, I was thinking about the terrible waste of being distanced from my father for almost 40 years. Some of my tears were joyful tho - we didn't part ememies.
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My Dad had cancer and was ill for 6 months. My mother cared for him in their home for the last 4. We had a whole battalion of people that would come over to be with him when she went to work - my day was Sunday. He and I had never gotten along, but in those 4 months of Sundays, we not only cleared the air but really got to know one another. I discovered the amazing human being that was hidden behind alcoholism for many years (he did finally quit the year he died).
The morning I lost it in the shower, I was thinking about the terrible waste of being distanced from my father for almost 40 years. Some of my tears were joyful tho - we didn't part ememies.
I'm so happy for you...I had a similar experience with my mother, though it was between her and her dad...I made her realise that once he was dead, that would be it, all the anger and hatred she had for that man would never be cleared. And finally she made the first move, contacted him, and they spoke, saw eachother a few times too, and he even asked to see her more. They had had a feud of over 30 years...she still feels like some things need to be cleared, but at least they have started the process.
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My Dad had cancer and was ill for 6 months. My mother cared for him in their home for the last 4. We had a whole battalion of people that would come over to be with him when she went to work - my day was Sunday. He and I had never gotten along, but in those 4 months of Sundays, we not only cleared the air but really got to know one another. I discovered the amazing human being that was hidden behind alcoholism for many years (he did finally quit the year he died).
The morning I lost it in the shower, I was thinking about the terrible waste of being distanced from my father for almost 40 years. Some of my tears were joyful tho - we didn't part ememies.
I'm so happy for you...I had a similar experience with my mother, though it was between her and her dad...I made her realise that once he was dead, that would be it, all the anger and hatred she had for that man would never be cleared. And finally she made the first move, contacted him, and they spoke, saw eachother a few times too, and he even asked to see her more. They had had a feud of over 30 years...she still feels like some things need to be cleared, but at least they have started the process.
Froggie and cybernaut, I'm sitting here writing this in tears, because I can almost feel you both holding my hands. I have terrible trouble being open about most everything - maybe that's why I feel so powerfully welded to Ennis - I SO understand him. There is magic in this forum, ya know. :'( :D
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Froggie and cybernaut, I'm sitting here writing this in tears, because I can almost feel you both holding my hands. I have terrible trouble being open about most everything - maybe that's why I feel so powerfully welded to Ennis - I SO understand him. There is magic in this forum, ya know. :'( :D
Honey, I'll hold your hand anytime you want...cry with you even. If posting here helps, then keep typing :) There are bits of Ennis and Jack in all of us, my guess is that it is why we are all so moved by BBM!
There is magic and love on this forum, and I'm so happy to have found it!
:-* Froggy
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My Dad had cancer and was ill for 6 months. My mother cared for him in their home for the last 4. We had a whole battalion of people that would come over to be with him when she went to work - my day was Sunday. He and I had never gotten along, but in those 4 months of Sundays, we not only cleared the air but really got to know one another. I discovered the amazing human being that was hidden behind alcoholism for many years (he did finally quit the year he died).
The morning I lost it in the shower, I was thinking about the terrible waste of being distanced from my father for almost 40 years. Some of my tears were joyful tho - we didn't part ememies.
I'm so happy for you...I had a similar experience with my mother, though it was between her and her dad...I made her realise that once he was dead, that would be it, all the anger and hatred she had for that man would never be cleared. And finally she made the first move, contacted him, and they spoke, saw eachother a few times too, and he even asked to see her more. They had had a feud of over 30 years...she still feels like some things need to be cleared, but at least they have started the process.
Froggie and cybernaut, I'm sitting here writing this in tears, because I can almost feel you both holding my hands. I have terrible trouble being open about most everything - maybe that's why I feel so powerfully welded to Ennis - I SO understand him. There is magic in this forum, ya know. :'( :D
:'(
There is magic in this forum, ya know.
Big time!
Thanks all for sharing!
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JerBear418720: Sorry to hear about your dad. What was the trigger point did you remember?
I remember my uncle wasn't in good shape when I was in the army. My mum took me and my sis one time during off-duty to see my shrunken uncle in the hospital, unconscious due to some illness even the doctors couldn't figure it out. Then suddenly one day, just like as he slipped into unconsciousness, he slipped away without saying goodbye.
I always thought it was one of the cruelest form of departure God can give.
On another story, I had witnessed an old guy fell from a stairwell of a double-decker bus, broke his shoulders and was sent home after the doctors found nothing wrong on him. He had a fun time with his family and grand-kids until I found out on an evening tabloid two days later, he had a brain haemorrhage and died. However he had the chance to say goodbye to his family and left quietly. :'(
That story has always haunted me... that I prayed to God that I treat people well and also I have the chance to bid farewell to my loved ones before I leave. Thus I can feel what Ennis felt... that he nor Jack didn't have the chance to say goodbye and that's where it breaks my heart. :'(
Cybernaut, just remember that when people go more quickly, it is a blessing to them because they don't suffer as much. If they have done a good job with relationships, goodbyes are almost understood, because their outpouring of love speaks for itself. Maybe the way you die is pre-ordained. If you have damaged relationships, hopefully, you're granted the time to fix them. I think about this a lot, because near the end of 2004, I was diagnosed with a very slow-moving type of leukemia. No worries, doc gave me 5-10 years, and I have yet to need treatment. I'm not saying this to start a pity party - I'm saying this because it is probably an indication that I have a LOT of work to do. I've mostly recently reached out to a young man that loved me for 3 years - we broke up a month before my diagnosis. I told him that I still love him and that I want him back. He told me that his feelings have not diminished despite the 16 months we have been apart. I can only hope.....
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Cybernaut, just remember that when people go more quickly, it is a blessing to them because they don't suffer as much. If they have done a good job with relationships, goodbyes are almost understood, because their outpouring of love speaks for itself. Maybe the way you die is pre-ordained. If you have damaged relationships, hopefully, you're granted the time to fix them. I think about this a lot, because near the end of 2004, I was diagnosed with a very slow-moving type of leukemia. No worries, doc gave me 5-10 years, and I have yet to need treatment. I'm not saying this to start a pity party - I'm saying this because it is probably an indication that I have a LOT of work to do. I've mostly recently reached out to a young man that loved me for 3 years - we broke up a month before my diagnosis. I told him that I still love him and that I want him back. He told me that his feelings have not diminished despite the 16 months we have been apart. I can only hope.....
All the best to you...and fingers crossed for getting your man back! :-* Moua
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Cybernaut, just remember that when people go more quickly, it is a blessing to them because they don't suffer as much. If they have done a good job with relationships, goodbyes are almost understood, because their outpouring of love speaks for itself. Maybe the way you die is pre-ordained. If you have damaged relationships, hopefully, you're granted the time to fix them. I think about this a lot, because near the end of 2004, I was diagnosed with a very slow-moving type of leukemia. No worries, doc gave me 5-10 years, and I have yet to need treatment. I'm not saying this to start a pity party - I'm saying this because it is probably an indication that I have a LOT of work to do. I've mostly recently reached out to a young man that loved me for 3 years - we broke up a month before my diagnosis. I told him that I still love him and that I want him back. He told me that his feelings have not diminished despite the 16 months we have been apart. I can only hope.....
*Hugz* :'(
Do whatever you need to bring him back. Cybie is supporting you! :)
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Cybernaut, just remember that when people go more quickly, it is a blessing to them because they don't suffer as much. If they have done a good job with relationships, goodbyes are almost understood, because their outpouring of love speaks for itself. Maybe the way you die is pre-ordained. If you have damaged relationships, hopefully, you're granted the time to fix them. I think about this a lot, because near the end of 2004, I was diagnosed with a very slow-moving type of leukemia. No worries, doc gave me 5-10 years, and I have yet to need treatment. I'm not saying this to start a pity party - I'm saying this because it is probably an indication that I have a LOT of work to do. I've mostly recently reached out to a young man that loved me for 3 years - we broke up a month before my diagnosis. I told him that I still love him and that I want him back. He told me that his feelings have not diminished despite the 16 months we have been apart. I can only hope.....
*Hugz* :'(
Do whatever you need to bring him back. Cybie is supporting you! :)
Thank you, friend
;)
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Froggie and cybernaut, I'm sitting here writing this in tears, because I can almost feel you both holding my hands. I have terrible trouble being open about most everything - maybe that's why I feel so powerfully welded to Ennis - I SO understand him. There is magic in this forum, ya know. :'( :D
Honey, I'll hold your hand anytime you want...cry with you even. If posting here helps, then keep typing :) There are bits of Ennis and Jack in all of us, my guess is that it is why we are all so moved by BBM!
There is magic and love on this forum, and I'm so happy to have found it!
:-* Froggy
Can I propose a group hug? Magic exists right here on this board between all of us sharing a common bond of understanding each other's needs.
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*Group hugz*!!! :)
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she still feels like some things need to be cleared, but at least they have started the process.
Almost forgot about you froggy.
Sometimes anger can blind us so much, (I ain't a saint either), that we just couldn't see the road ahead.
But forgiveness blows away the fog along the journey. ;)
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she still feels like some things need to be cleared, but at least they have started the process.
Almost forgot about you froggy.
Sometimes anger can blind us so much, (I ain't a saint either), that we just couldn't see the road ahead.
But forgiveness blows away the fog along the journey. ;)
Moua x
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As suggested ..
Goup Hug!
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I participate me to!!
big kiss
coguaro
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...sorry for the *some might say* lame picture, but it was the only decent one I found on google! :P
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Frog - That ain't lame, the wisdom of Pooh is a great thing in life. I think we can all associate with the overall feelings of at least one of those characters. I'm man 'nuff to admit it. Me = Pooh
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Frog - That ain't lame, the wisdom of Pooh is a great thing in life. I think we can all associate with the overall feelings of at least one of those characters. I'm man 'nuff to admit it. Me = Pooh
;)
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Well, consarnit, break me off a piece of that group hug!! :) :)
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On later viewings I don't lilke the way Ennis treats Alma. I mean he has the odacity to say
"once burned" to her about the divorce when he said "if you don't want my kids I would
be happy to leave you alone" and all she said was she'd have them if they could be supported.
I mean she deserved to be loved, and at least I would hope he would understand that.
And even though we love this scene, and I hope I am not on sacred ground here, but kissing Jack right in eye shot of her like that was...well sort of a dig in a way.
Luckily for Alma, she was perceptive and resourceful enough to save herself. She was not getting much out of that marriage - no real financial support, no real love - so she did what she had to do.
In Ennis' defense, I think the message embedded in his not-very-kind words was: "I did the best I could". His best regarding Alma, of course, was not good enough - and she thought enough of herself not to settle for crumbs. Also, Ennis did not understand that his relationship with Jack was a grievous insult to her femininity.
The whole situation, of course, was meant to illustrate the collateral damage of homophobia. I came out (both to myself and the world) after being married for 10 years, and I can tell you from expereince that the pain impacts a lot of people - wives, inlaws, mutual friends, etc. I believe that I handled my divorce with honor, but, even now 23 years after we spilt, we still find cordial contact impossible.
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Damn, I HAVE to stop pulling things out of the middle of threads - sorry, guys - but I missed that one, and I HAD to respond. BBM keeps yanking so much stuff outta me.....
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Apollonos:
My reference to JR Ewing was to only infer that all of the Texas scenes were very stereotypical of the 1970's Texas fervor that went on when JR/Dallas was the rave back then. Big hair, big belt buckles, big belly, lavish cars, big money, on and on ....the scenes in BBM were fraught with this stereotypical Texas big, bold and brash theme...and that's not what Texas really is...I live in Texas and the film stretches this way out of proportion. In no way was I trying to equate the evil, malevolent JR with any character...rather the shallow way they portrayed the Texas theme in the film. That's all.
stationbbm-
Okay. I missed the fact that they carried the "over the top" Texas look all the way through the movie. I wonder if they did that deliberately, for some reason, or if it was just an oversight.
I think that Annie et al. wanted to show the differences between Ennis' hard, ranch work life and Jack's more plush, "fancy" life. I think it did look like Texas, (i have lived there) oddly before i came out I remember Urban Cowboy and all the "fancy" cowboys....makes me think of something i said years ago....I thought all cowboys were kinda gay...as in they love hats, love high heeled boots, loved their belt buckles, their fancy snap shirts etc...by the way I was being stereotypical because I said that to a "cowboy" friend who was particularly homophobic). for years after i left texas and new mexico (where i live on ranches/farms) i loved being "free" to wears addidas rather than cowboy boots, they were so much more comfortable!!
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First time on this particular thread. Read something way back at beginning, someone said the scenes were too short. I agree. Sure the movie was 2 1/4 hours. But I've seen much longer and much slower moving movies, and BBM was so poetic, and had so much beautiful scenery it could've easily been longer. It covered 20 years and a lot of stuff. American movies tend to go way way too fast, something big always has to happen. This one was a bit slower, but not slow enough.
I would've liked to have seen much more drawn out scenes for the original summer on Brokeback mountain and more scenes too. The scenes were just a tad too choppy and short, like a music video. It was still highly effective and well done, but I dont think it would have hurt to include more, and it would have given us more to treasure and remember. The movie is almost like the short story, very bare bones and always having to fill in the blanks yourself. This could be one reason it leaves such an impression, it keeps us wanting more more more.
To me it only seemed to drag for one brief instant, but that could have been just me, and adding more scenes, if they were chosen well, and paced well, wouldnt necessarily make it drag out more.
One example: the beautiful scene where Jack from atop his mountain post with the sheep looks way way down at the twinkle of firelight from Ennis' campfire in the pitch black valley at night, was way too short. I would have liked to have really felt his missing his buddy more, given me time to absorb the look on his face and really feel what he felt. The scene was incredibly brief.
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The scene I disike the most, not because it was a bad do or useless, is the Jack-Aguirre encounter. It represents a strong homophobia
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The scene I can never watch and I close my eyes every time is when Ennis envisions how Jack died. As far as I am concerned they could have left that out of the movie and I would have been just as happy.
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The scene I can never watch and I close my eyes every time is when Ennis envisions how Jack died. As far as I am concerned they could have left that out of the movie and I would have been just as happy.
They sticked to Annie's short story. I close my eyes too.
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Hmm, I think the "yee-haw" in the scene where he went nuts pretending to be a rodeo cowboy fit - did you see his exaggerated expression (if only to get Ennis to laugh, aww :)) I thought he was taking Ennis' comment about how his daddy thought "all rodeo cowboys was ****ups" and running with it, to show how ridiculous it was (remember his drawn-out line, with a purposeful drawl "waaavin' to the girls in the stands!" ?) and yes, to get Ennis to laugh. (which we see *how many times?* oh yeah, just that once :P) and if it came across a little awkward, it was cause he wasn't from Texas, and I thought it seemed natural that it wasn't a perfect, authentic performance. ;)
My least favorite scene, I would have to say, is when Jack's trying to make suggestions that might make Ennis happier and one of them is moving to a different state, "what about Texas?" I always cringe when I hear that cause it's so blatant and so desperate and you feel so sorry for him, especially considering Ennis' somewhat callous reaction (yeah, I know they know how to push each other's buttons, but still...!)
I also don't like it when Ennis starts punching that guy in the truck who almost hits him after Alma has outed him at Thanksgiving. I feel horrible for him and understand why he does it, but it makes me cringe, too, cause I don't want to see him beating up innocent people. :-[
Personally, I LOVED the "YEE HAW!" It shows so muich of Jack's nature, and besides it makes Ennis smile, and Ennis doesn't smile much. I loved it when Ennis pushed him back and said "I'm tired of your dumb ass missing" Then Jack leans in to murmur something about "Lets get a move on before the Fish and Game catch us with an Elk" I thought it was great because it was one of the times they showed them being happy together.
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As someone stated earlier, Jack's suggestion of "Why not Texas" is difficult to stomach because it's so desperate and sad, and you know that he knows Ennis won't like the idea. So I also dislike when he asks that. I LOVE BBM, but scenes I dislike, I'd have to say the Alma-and-Ennis sex scene, because I wonder how uncomfortable and awkward it must be for him...like what thoughts are going through his head? ???
Also, I dislike Alma and Ennis' discussion in the "Condiments" (lol, "Ketchup!") section, because it is just sad to see that rift between Alma and Ennis growing. I mean, three cheers for Ennis and Jack, but I don't like the tenseness and conflict, the underlying anger and frustration, in that conversation btwn Ennis and Alma (the way Alma says she'll see if her sister can babysit the girls, and Ennis' insisting he has to work).
Ennis' insistence on work made me mad sometimes, too. I mean, I know, he's GOT to work, to survive and get money and feed his family. But the fact that his having to work stopped him from seeing Jack in August makes me mad everytime I see that part. >:(
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I read somewhere in one of the threads that there was a scene cut from the movie, where Jack gets beat up by the rodeo clown and his friends? I sure am glad that wasn't in the movie.
I wish that Ennis had not said, "Once burned" to Alma." I thought that this was out of character. Ennis didn't seem to blame anyone for any of his misfortunes and I found this comment particularly cruel, which I didn't find Ennis to be. I don't remember if he says this in the story.
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I read somewhere in one of the threads that there was a scene cut from the movie, where Jack gets beat up by the rodeo clown and his friends? I sure am glad that wasn't in the movie.
I wish that Ennis had not said, "Once burned" to Alma." I thought that this was out of character. Ennis didn't seem to blame anyone for any of his misfortunes and I found this comment particularly cruel, which I didn't find Ennis to be. I don't remember if he says this in the story.
Once burned is in the short story
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If you go to the DID ANYONE FIND IT STRANGE thread they are talking about the "once burned" to Alma scene. Everyone was saying, including me, that it was nasty of him. Then someone brought up how mean it was for Ennis to send Jack away after that long drive (something like 1,000 mi.) the day he was looking after his two daughters. Ennis wasnt an angel, he didnt have wings like his daughters.
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I don't think Ennis was an angel, but he usually didn't lay blame on others. He only did this when he was angry at Acguirre for ending their summer early. Although I don't think he was honest about WHY he was angry, the objection he did pose did have merit. He also says, "It's because of you I"m like this." In this case I don't hear him really blaming Jack. It was his love for Jack and his denial of these feelings, that put him in the state he was in. In these two other cases he is being honest. With Alma he is not. - Nancy
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It feels blasphemous to criticsize any part of this wonderful movie, but... I agree with an earlier post about the first scene with Jack leaning against his pick-em-up. It did seem kinda gay to me(not that there's anything wrong with that) I first saw it in the previews and I thought to myself, NOOOO, they did make a gay cowboy movie. It still bothers me a little, but it's just a minor thing. It just looks a little too contrived, I guess. Didn't keep me from going back to see it 10 times!
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I read somewhere in one of the threads that there was a scene cut from the movie, where Jack gets beat up by the rodeo clown and his friends? I sure am glad that wasn't in the movie.
Hmm, I hadn't read that. If it's true, I'm glad it wasn't in the movie, as well.
If, indeed, Jack was murdered by someone... could it have been the rodeo clown and his friends that did it?
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I read somewhere in one of the threads that there was a scene cut from the movie, where Jack gets beat up by the rodeo clown and his friends? I sure am glad that wasn't in the movie.
Hmm, I hadn't read that. If it's true, I'm glad it wasn't in the movie, as well.
If, indeed, Jack was murdered by someone... could it have been the rodeo clown and his friends that did it?
Look at the credits, there are a killer mechanic, a grease monkey and an assailant, they are not the rodeo clowns. There is a view of a cut scene with the killer mechanic and the grease monkey in the trailer.
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But, isn't that in reference to the scene that Ennis is recalling about the man being murdered when he was 9 years old. I thought that those people, the killer mechanic are the ones that are involved in the murder of that man, not in Jack's murder. But, then again, maybe that flashback we're seeing is actually Jack being murdered and not a flashback to Ennis's story. Whoo, this is a great movie to make you think, isn't it? :)
The scene I wish wasn't in the movie, hmmm, let me think. I would have liked to have not seen Ennis leaving Alma's new place and getting the c*ap kicked out of him. But, honestly, I don't like any scene involving Aguirre after Aguirre discovered what was going on. It gave me chills to watch him when I knew that he knew what Ennis and Jack were doing on BBM.
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I wish they would have put the cut scenes in the DVD.
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I don't really know why but I've never liked the scene where Jack tries to pick up the rodeo clown. And I can't find out why it dislike it so much...
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I don't really know why but I've never liked the scene where Jack tries to pick up the rodeo clown. And I can't find out why it dislike it so much...
i asolutely agree. from first seeing on i didn't feel comfortable when watching it!
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the scene whe Lureen didn't defend Jack when her dad talked nasty things about him
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1. Jack's death
2. Mexico
3. Trying to pick up the clown
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don't like it when jack tells ennis he's got an affair with the farmer's wife, because he is obviously lying to ennis
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don't like it when jack tells ennis he's got an affair with the farmer's wife, because he is obviously lying to ennis
That wasn't the first time Hanna.
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don't like it when jack tells ennis he's got an affair with the farmer's wife, because he is obviously lying to ennis
That wasn't the first time Hanna.
you're right with this of course, but it is just this part of the scene i dislike the most.. (just my feelings..)
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don't like it when jack tells ennis he's got an affair with the farmer's wife, because he is obviously lying to ennis
That wasn't the first time Hanna.
you're right with this of course, but it is just this part of the scene i dislike the most.. (just my feelings..)
You are so right. Nowhere in the entire movie EXCEPT this scene do I ever ask myself, they are in the middle of nowhere, why can't they be themselves and tell each other the truth. Obviously Jack had a need to tell Ennis about the affair he was having. Why lie and change the gender? If you are going to lie, just don't say anything at all. Then there is no lie.
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don't like it when jack tells ennis he's got an affair with the farmer's wife, because he is obviously lying to ennis
That wasn't the first time Hanna.
you're right with this of course, but it is just this part of the scene i dislike the most.. (just my feelings..)
Patriot1 you have a very good point however Jack was so despaired, maybe he was trying one more (and last?) time to pass some serious message to Ennis?
You are so right. Nowhere in the entire movie EXCEPT this scene do I ever ask myself, they are in the middle of nowhere, why can't they be themselves and tell each other the truth. Obviously Jack had a need to tell Ennis about the affair he was having. Why lie and change the gender? If you are going to lie, just don't say anything at all. Then there is no lie.
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don't like it when jack tells ennis he's got an affair with the farmer's wife, because he is obviously lying to ennis
That wasn't the first time Hanna.
you're right with this of course, but it is just this part of the scene i dislike the most.. (just my feelings..)
You are so right. Nowhere in the entire movie EXCEPT this scene do I ever ask myself, they are in the middle of nowhere, why can't they be themselves and tell each other the truth. Obviously Jack had a need to tell Ennis about the affair he was having. Why lie and change the gender? If you are going to lie, just don't say anything at all. Then there is no lie.
yes, partiot, that's exactly the problem i have with this scene. didn't know how to explain myself..
thanks!
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Coyote: Let me just affirm to you. I live in the heart of cowboy-dom in Fort Worth, Texas. They DO NOT yee-haw, particularly in the fashion that Mr. Gyllenhaal tried so nobly to imitate but fell desperately short. I concur. His yee-hawing was not at all a realistic reaction. I just wonder how many takes Lee made him go through...and finally shook his head and said, "Whatever" Then again, perhaps Lee doesn't really have much familiarization with how cowboys playfully react....It's the only part of the film that I really do cringe when he does that.
stationbbm
I don't think Jack was trying to be authentic. He was making fun of the stereotype of the rodeo rider. He's a cut up, just having fun. He would never say Yee-haw himself, but was acting crazy to prove Ennis's Pa was right when he said rodeo riders were all .....-ups.
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Hands down my least favorite scene is the sledding scene between Alma and Ennis. They just seem too much in love. I wanted Ennis to be pining away after Jack. Yeah, maybe it was included to show Ennis was missing Jack and trying to be playful with Alma, but I thought the scene was unnecessary. It looked to me like Heath and Michelle were loving on each other instead of playing Ennis and Alma. Just my 2 cents. ;)
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I honestly can't say I didn't like a scene. I felt all told the story. I mean Ennis saying "once burned' fit to me cause
that lead to Alma saying look, I know you loved someone else. I didn't burn you big fella.
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I dislike the scene with Jack and Randall outside the most...not because it isn't a great scene, cause it is, but I dislike it profoundly because that is the BIGGEST threat to Jack and Ennis beeing togheter IMO...
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There are three scenes I do not like.
The first is Jack's death. Except for the first time, I can not watch this. The first time it came as a surprise and I sat there (in the theater) in shock. My stomach was churning and I thought for sure I was going to vomit. Now, I close my eyes, turn my head or cover my eyes. I can not watch this scene at all.
The second scene is the one in Mexico. I do not[/b][/i] like this scene and that is that.
I know, there has been a long discussion about it but, no, I don't like it.
The third is when Jack goes to see Ennis after the divorce. What Ennis did to Jack was nearly unforgivable. I watch it, but I sure don't like it.
Those are my big three.
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Hands down my least favorite scene is the sledding scene between Alma and Ennis. They just seem too much in love. I wanted Ennis to be pining away after Jack. Yeah, maybe it was included to show Ennis was missing Jack and trying to be playful with Alma, but I thought the scene was unnecessary. It looked to me like Heath and Michelle were loving on each other instead of playing Ennis and Alma. Just my 2 cents. ;)
Snap! I don't like that scene either, probably because, like you say, it just seems rather pointless :-\ (or maybe we've just been spoilt by just about every other scene being so full of meaning? ;)) And I don't know if it's just me, but when Ennis says "y'alright?" to Alma in that scene, he sounds likes he's forgotten to do his accent, it sounds Australian to me ???
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I honestly can't say I didn't like a scene. I felt all told the story. I mean Ennis saying "once burned' fit to me cause
that lead to Alma saying look, I know you loved someone else. I didn't burn you big fella.
Also, he only said it beacuse Alma was suggesting he should get married again, he could hardly say "well, I would get married again...except I'm in love with another man" , could he? Alma had him backed into a corner there. That said, if I was Alma, I would have been furious at him appearing to blame her,bearing in mind what she knows, but that's the thing about this film, you feel so bad for the other characters too, not just Ennis and Jack :'(
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I dislike the scene with Jack and Randall outside the most...not because it isn't a great scene, cause it is, but I dislike it profoundly because that is the BIGGEST threat to Jack and Ennis beeing togheter IMO...
I didn't like that one either. Did anyone else think it was rather classless of Randall to basically proposition Jack for sex an hour or two after they've met? Turned my stomach a little. Plus, the thought of Randall and Jack . . .grrrr! No one should be with Jack but Ennis, let alone Grizzly Adams Jr. ;)
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I dislike the scene with Jack and Randall outside the most...not because it isn't a great scene, cause it is, but I dislike it profoundly because that is the BIGGEST threat to Jack and Ennis beeing togheter IMO...
I didn't like that one either. Did anyone else think it was rather classless of Randall to basically proposition Jack for sex an hour or two after they've met? Turned my stomach a little. Plus, the thought of Randall and Jack . . .grrrr! No one should be with Jack but Ennis, let alone Grizzly Adams Jr. ;)
Grizzly Adams - LMAO ;D
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(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.squashduck.com%2Fltd%2Fbbm%2Fimages%2Fimages%2FPDVD_102_jpg.jpg&hash=a549ea41daadd85f9447a6da59c425683a25791a)
This scene with Randall definately rubs me the wrong way. Jack looks as handsome as ever.
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Ditto. I don't like Randall. :-\ Jack and Ennis forever. :-*
Greetings
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I don't like Randall either - I'd much prefer it if that wasn't in the movie. Mexico I can cope with because it meant nothing to Jack, other than physical pleasure, but Randall was different - nothing should come between Jack and Ennis.
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I don't like Randall either - I'd much prefer it if that wasn't in the movie. Mexico I can cope with because it meant nothing to Jack, other than physical pleasure, but Randall was different - nothing should come between Jack and Ennis.
Yes, I agree. To ease the pain, I always picture Jack pulling down Randall's cowboy hat ove his face and screaming Ennis' name while he's with Randall. ;) Randall was nothing but a poor substitute for Ennis.
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Well not a scene.. but i'd rather Jack didnt die and they ended up together forever.. "happily ever after.." lol
but that couldnt be because then it wouldn't be Brokeback Mountain, and it wouldnt have made such an impact.
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Ditto. I don't like Randall. :-\ Jack and Ennis forever. :-*
Greetings
I liked LaShawn. I don't know why, I just like her. ;D
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I don't know why but I feel like the Cassie scenes are just throwaways. I can't connect with them at all except maybe the one where Ennis is alone eating pie. Other than that one, I usually fast forward thru them.
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I liked LaShawn. I don't know why, I just like her. ;D
I ADORE LaShawn. She's a riot!. I love when she's telling Jack about "that darn pickup" just love the way she says that, and Jack is just looking at her with the cutest "tolerant" smile, lol. Love it!
Donna
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The scene I hate the worse is when Jack trys to pick up the rodeo clown ::). I think its because I can't stand to see Jack shot down. And that DAMN bartender! He just saw Jack get shot down and what does he say? "You ever try calf roping?" I think there was a "double entendre". In other words, you can't rope a man, either! >:(
Donna
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Coyote: Let me just affirm to you. I live in the heart of cowboy-dom in Fort Worth, Texas. They DO NOT yee-haw, particularly in the fashion that Mr. Gyllenhaal tried so nobly to imitate but fell desperately short. I concur. His yee-hawing was not at all a realistic reaction. I just wonder how many takes Lee made him go through...and finally shook his head and said, "Whatever" Then again, perhaps Lee doesn't really have much familiarization with how cowboys playfully react....It's the only part of the film that I really do cringe when he does that.
stationbbm
I don't think Jack was trying to be authentic. He was making fun of the stereotype of the rodeo rider. He's a cut up, just having fun. He would never say Yee-haw himself, but was acting crazy to prove Ennis's Pa was right when he said rodeo riders were all .....-ups.
I don't care whether they YEE HAW in Texas or not...I love this scene. Jack's so cute, and it DOES make Ennis smile. He pushes Jack down when he says "Tired of your dumbass missing" Then when Jack tells him they have to get a move on to avoid the Game & Fish people, Ennis gives Jack a little slap, but you can't see where it lands...his arm...his butt? ;D
Donna
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Ditto. I don't like Randall. :-\ Jack and Ennis forever. :-*
Greetings
I liked LaShawn. I don't know why, I just like her. ;D
I think she's hysterical. I think we like her because we know she's no threat to Ennis and Jack. Girl is like a little yappie terrier. ;)
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I agree I don't like the scenes with Randell either...his character gives me the creeps..something just seems off..or maybe his character just rubs me the wrong way..
I also don't like the flashback Ennis has of Jack being killed..its so sad :'(
or after the divorce and he is all sad..its so heartbreaking
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Ditto. I don't like Randall. :-\ Jack and Ennis forever. :-*
Greetings
I liked LaShawn. I don't know why, I just like her. ;D
I think she's hysterical. I think we like her because we know she's no threat to Ennis and Jack. Girl is like a little yappie terrier. ;)
Her line "Randall wouldn't listen to me if he was going deaf tomorrow" always makes me laugh ;D I actually said the same thing about my daughter the other day :o ;D
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I liked LaShawn. I don't know why, I just like her. ;D
I like LaShawn, too. ;D She's so darn cute. For some reason I like when she says, "Our husbands don't seem the least bit interested in dancing!" and "Thank you for asking me to dance with you, Randall never does!" :P
I agree I don't like the scenes with Randell either...his character gives me the creeps..something just seems off..or maybe his character just rubs me the wrong way..
I agree, Randall bugs me, too :-\\ I dont care for his little stares he gives Jack every so often at the table.... dont like how he gets the way of Ennis and Jack.... just don't like him at all. Like someone else said.... Mexico I can can tolerate because it means nothing to Jack, it's just a way to fulfill a sexual need.... but Randall is an invidual who seems to be trying to hone in on some kind of relationship with Jack.
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I don't like all those scenes in the room over the laundrette, becaue evey day i spend half my waking hours on here my house gets to look more and more like that apartment.
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Who could blame Randall for taking that opportunity? He's nothing compared to that Damn Aguirre spying on the boys. Then approaches Jack about a sick uncle. Was this a real story or just an excuse to get rid of the boys? I go with the latter.
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Its gotta be the Biker/fairground scene. I don't like obscene use of words,and i just feel that the scene was pointless and not well done, They should of took it out and put in more of Ennis and Jack together,IMO.
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I didn't like the "not so lonely now"-scene with Ennis and Alma at all. There has been lots of discussion about La Shawns person, too. I have to admit, that I found her somehow "refreshing" in that otherwise heavy athmosphere ;D.
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LaShawn? PPLLLEEAASSEE!
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I don't like the scene where Jack is demonstrating a machine to some farmers and two of them in the office with Lureen say 'didn't that piss-ant used to ride the bulls?' and 'he used to try' I just hate that. Poor Jack. But then again it's scenes like that and the one with the clown that make me love Ennis all the more. HE appreciated Jack, and you can see that in a life where his even his sons teacher doesn't like him, he is a haven for Jack when they are together.
BTW don't exactly know what a piss-ant is. I doubt it's a drunk ant! Maybe a streak of p*** whatever it is JACK IS NOT ONE! %(
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Its gotta be the Biker/fairground scene. I don't like obscene use of words,and i just feel that the scene was pointless and not well done, They should of took it out and put in more of Ennis and Jack together,IMO.
I can see why you don't like the scene, cause it's not exactly pleasant to watch, but I don't agree that it's pointless. I think it illustrates very well the sort of person Ennis was, and how he struggled to cope with the world around him. He's trying to be a regular family guy,taking his wife and kids out for a special occasion, even though he hates social events like that, and we see the side of him that wants to do the right thing,all the people around the bikers are obviously offended and intimidated by the bikers, but Ennis is the only one with the guts to tell them to pack it in. Junior and Jenny are too small to really understand what the bikers are saying, so when Ennis tells them to keep it down cause of his girls, it's not just about them, he's speaking for everyone there. We also see how Ennis will only tolerate so much,trying to keep control of himself, but with the violent side of him simmering away quietly until it finally becomes to much, and he explodes in a violent rage. Also, if you look closesly, it's the biker's comment about Ennis not giving it to his wife after the kids were born, that is the trigger that sets him off, you see Alma look nervously at him too, it's clear that she knows the biker's hit a nerve.The biker's comment probably made Ennis feel that paranoia he has about people suspecting, cause his and Alma's sex life clearly isn't particularly satisfying for either of them so, in a way, that scene is about Ennis and Jack, even though Jack isn't there,or even mentioned. In fact, just about every non-Ennis and Jack scene is about the two of them on some level, cause their whole lives are defined by their relationship, and the hardships they endure because of it. Of course, I wish there had been more scenes of Ennis and Jack together (the whole movie could be Ennis and Jack together, and it still wouldn't be enough for me! ;)), but as someone summed it up perfectly in another thread, by not seeing enough Ennis and Jack on screen, we get a real sense of what it was like for them, to never have enough time with each other :(
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Its gotta be the Biker/fairground scene. I don't like obscene use of words,and i just feel that the scene was pointless and not well done, They should of took it out and put in more of Ennis and Jack together,IMO.
I can see why you don't like the scene, cause it's not excatly pleasant to watch, but I don't agree that it's pointless. I think it illustrates very well the sort of person Ennis was, and how he struggled to cope with the world around him. He's trying to be a regular family guy,taking his wife and kids out for a special occasion, even though he hates social events like that, and we see the side of him that wants to do the right thing,all the people around the bikers are obviously offended and intimidated by the bikers, but Ennis is the only one with the guts to tell them to pack it in. Junior and Jenny are too small to really understand what the bikers are saying, so when Ennis tells them to keep it down cause of his girls, it's not just about then, he's speaking for everyone there. We also see how Ennis will only tolerate so much,trying to keep control of himself, but with the violent side of him simmering away quietly until it finally becomes to much, and he explodes in a violent rage. Also, if you look closesly, it's the biker's comment about Ennis not giving it to his wife after the kids were born, that is the trigger that sets him off, you see Alma look nervously at him too, it's clear that she knows the biker's hit a nerve.The biker's comment probably made Ennis feel that paranoia he has about people suspecting, cause his and Alma's sex life clearly isn't particularly satisfying for euther of them so, in a way, that scene is about Ennis and Jack, even though Jack isn't there,or even mentioned. In fact, just about every non-Ennis and Jack scene is about the two of them on some level, cause their whole lives are defined by their relationship, and the hardships they endure because of it. Of course, I wish there had been more scenes of Ennis and Jack together (the whole movie could be Ennis and Jack together, and it still wouldn't be enough for me! ;)), but as someone summed it up perfectly in another thread, by not seeing enough Ennis and Jack on screen, we get a real sense of what it was like for them, to never have enough time with each other :(
Brilliantly put CS, especially the bit about what makes Ennis explode in that scene. I'd never really noticed before what it was that made him lash out, just thought he was building up to it through the whole scene but now that you mention it, I think you're right.
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Brilliantly put CS, especially the bit about what makes Ennis explode in that scene. I'd never really noticed before what it was that made him lash out, just thought he was building up to it through the whole scene but now that you mention it, I think you're right.
Thanks NoReins :) Of course, it's only my opinion, but I definitely get the feeling that it's the biker's apparent slur on Ennis's masculinity that tips him over the edge, and makes him feel he has to prove he's a "real man". I also have to say, as much as I abhor violence, the way he takes out the two bikers singlehanded is pretty impressive! ;)
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CS, I also like what you wrote very much! I would like to add, that not seeing more of Jack and Ennis together, but always wanting them to be together is what makes the movie so poignant.
monicita
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Who could blame Randall for taking that opportunity? He's nothing compared to that Damn Aguirre spying on the boys. Then approaches Jack about a sick uncle. Was this a real story or just an excuse to get rid of the boys? I go with the latter.
I always thought Aguirre made up that story about Jack's uncle so he could watch the boys go at it. He probably gave Jack daily "updates" about his uncle, like "Jack, your uncle turned a shade paler today. Now, could you boys go at it outside the tent today?" %&)
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I don't like the scene where Jack is demonstrating a machine to some farmers and two of them in the office with Lureen say 'didn't that piss-ant used to ride the bulls?' and 'he used to try' I just hate that. Poor Jack. But then again it's scenes like that and the one with the clown that make me love Ennis all the more. HE appreciated Jack, and you can see that in a life where his even his sons teacher doesn't like him, he is a haven for Jack when they are together.
BTW don't exactly know what a piss-ant is. I doubt it's a drunk ant! Maybe a streak of p*** whatever it is JACK IS NOT ONE! %(
I really hate that scene, too...especially when Lureen doesn't stand up for Jack.
*o) A pissant is a small red ant. It's bite is REALLY painful and annoying (makes a bump and itches like hell). It also means a person who is kind of petty or a complainer. I love Jack but he did complain a lot. <^(
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all the scenes seem key to telling the story though. I mean the clown pick up scene sets up for his marrying Lureen so quickly. Stuff like that.
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I don't really like the picking up Jimbo the clown scene, either :( I hate seeing Jack humiliated like that and I hate how the bartender is such a jerk. "You ever try calf-roping?" :X Ugh.
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Well, somebody has to defend Randall, so why not me? I think maybe Randall had a man-love of his own that, for one reason or another, did not play out too well. Maybe he was like Jack and Ennis -- he couldn't really be with the one he loved. In that case, he was just looking for some love from someone. He sensed Jack's inner lonliness and took a chance with him. I don't think Randall was scudsy or a letch. I prefer to think he was just a guy with some unmet needs and took a chance on finding a new love, or at least a new "buddy". In Jack's present frame of mind, the idea took root. Jack was so lonely he could hardly stand it. Having Randall in his life was certainly preferable to having meaningless, hired sex, IMHO.
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Well, somebody has to defend Randall, so why not me? I think maybe Randall had a man-love of his own that, for one reason or another, did not play out too well. Maybe he was like Jack and Ennis -- he couldn't really be with the one he loved. In that case, he was just looking for some love from someone. He sensed Jack's inner lonliness and took a chance with him. I don't think Randall was scudsy or a letch. I prefer to think he was just a guy with some unmet needs and took a chance on finding a new love, or at least a new "buddy". In Jack's present frame of mind, the idea took root. Jack was so lonely he could hardly stand it. Having Randall in his life was certainly preferable to having meaningless, hired sex, IMHO.
That's certainly a fresh take on Ol' Randall. We really don't know enough about him to get a feel for who he is and where he is coming from. The thing that just turned me off to Randall was his meet-Jack- an- hour ago- and-then-ask-for-sex routine. He almost treated Jack like some hooker IMO. I don't know, it just seemed so cheesy to me. But, I'll try to cut Randall some slack. Maybe he does have his own Ennis out there.
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I don't really like the picking up Jimbo the clown scene, either :( I hate seeing Jack humiliated like that and I hate how the bartender is such a jerk. "You ever try calf-roping?" :X Ugh.
This is the scene I regularly skip over on the DVD. I don't like Jimbo. Even if he didn't want to be picked up by Jack he could have been a little nicer. After all, Jack was throwing some very nice compliments in his direction. I have had the same thing happen to me. Even though I wasn't interested, I wasn't about to be rude to someone who was trying to compliment me.
As for the scene with Randall, I choose to believe he was looking for something more than just a sex pickup. I think he was every bit as lonely for what he really needed as Jack was. I can't label this scene as a bad one.
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Well, somebody has to defend Randall, so why not me? I think maybe Randall had a man-love of his own that, for one reason or another, did not play out too well. Maybe he was like Jack and Ennis -- he couldn't really be with the one he loved. In that case, he was just looking for some love from someone. He sensed Jack's inner lonliness and took a chance with him. I don't think Randall was scudsy or a letch. I prefer to think he was just a guy with some unmet needs and took a chance on finding a new love, or at least a new "buddy". In Jack's present frame of mind, the idea took root. Jack was so lonely he could hardly stand it. Having Randall in his life was certainly preferable to having meaningless, hired sex, IMHO.
That's certainly a fresh take on Ol' Randall. We really don't know enough about him to get a feel for who he is and where he is coming from. The thing that just turned me off to Randall was his meet-Jack- an- hour ago- and-then-ask-for-sex routine. He almost treated Jack like some hooker IMO. I don't know, it just seemed so cheesy to me. But, I'll try to cut Randall some slack. Maybe he does have his own Ennis out there.
Stacp, the scene was exactly as it would have been for two gay men looking to find other gay men back in that time period. On the East coast and West coast the gay world was more open but in middle America of the 70's gay men still had to dance a careful dance and sometimes you didn't really know what you were asking for other than some kind of connection, sexual or otherwise. Randall and Jack play it very cautious in this scene just as they would have in real life. The gaydar was up and going off but they still had to go careful.
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I would probably say i could live without the firework scene.It's not really that i dislike it,but more that if it wasn't there i don't think it would make a difference to the story.I know it's to portray Ennis' anger etc but i already had the measure of Ennis without it.So i would pick this scene.
Jennis.x
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The thing that just turned me off to Randall was his meet-Jack- an- hour ago- and-then-ask-for-sex routine. He almost treated Jack like some hooker IMO.
Guess you have never been to a gay bar. It happens every night. That is why the last hour before closing is known as "the desperate hour".
Don't judge Randall for that. And he shouldn't be judged for trying to pick up Jack and come between Jack and Ennis. Randall didn't know about Ennis.
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This is the scene I regularly skip over on the DVD. I don't like Jimbo. Even if he didn't want to be picked up by Jack he could have been a little nicer. After all, Jack was throwing some very nice compliments in his direction. I have had the same thing happen to me. Even though I wasn't interested, I wasn't about to be rude to someone who was trying to compliment me.
Yah, but CSC, you are not a homophobe. And to a homophobe the compliments don't mean much. They are just flattery with a goal.
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This is the scene I regularly skip over on the DVD. I don't like Jimbo. Even if he didn't want to be picked up by Jack he could have been a little nicer. After all, Jack was throwing some very nice compliments in his direction. I have had the same thing happen to me. Even though I wasn't interested, I wasn't about to be rude to someone who was trying to compliment me.
Yah, but CSC, you are not a homophobe. And to a homophobe the compliments don't mean much. They are just flattery with a goal.
Interesting point. However I can recognize flattery with a goal. I guess homophobes like Jimbo never think a brush off can be done with manners. *o)
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Yah, but CSC, you are not a homophobe. And to a homophobe the compliments don't mean much. They are just flattery with a goal.
Interesting point. However I can recognize flattery with a goal. I guess homophobes like Jimbo never think a brush off can be done with manners. *o)
Homophobes never have any intention of showing manners to a faggot.
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The thing that just turned me off to Randall was his meet-Jack- an- hour ago- and-then-ask-for-sex routine. He almost treated Jack like some hooker IMO.
Guess you have never been to a gay bar. It happens every night. That is why the last hour before closing is known as "the desperate hour".
Don't judge Randall for that. And he shouldn't be judged for trying to pick up Jack and come between Jack and Ennis. Randall didn't know about Ennis.
Yes, I have been to a gay bar. My comment had nothing to do with whether Randall was gay or not. He could have been a she and I would say she was acting like a player for coming on to Jack like that. It happens every night in straight bars, too, and it doesn't, IMO, make it any more tasteful. It's just a matter of taste is what I was trying to say.
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Off topic maybe? :-X We are now going go back to the scheduled program... thank you! 8)
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The Fireworks scene, I just don't know how much it lends to the story, except to show his anger. However, I am not sure that that particular scene is needed esp. from Ennis who is a man of few words and actions.
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I think the fireworks scene also is put in to show Ennis' care and love for his babies. He wants to protect them, including Alma, from the crude language of the bikers. It also shows his quick temper. I think it helps develope the character of Ennis. Also, at this point in the story, Ennis still takes his family out for some entertainment. Later, after the reunion scene with Jack, he doesn't do that anymore. When Alma wants to go to the church picnic, he refuses. Perhaps that's his guilt working within him. He denies himself any social contacts, outside of his family, because he can't openly have any kind of contact with Jack. ?????
The scene I don't care for is when Ennis drops the girls off at the store while Alma is working. Again, it shows Ennis's ability to get Alma to do what he wants, but I can see no other purpose for that scene. I could easily have done without it.
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The scene I don't care for is when Ennis drops the girls off at the store while Alma is working. Again, it shows Ennis's ability to get Alma to do what he wants, but I can see no other purpose for that scene. I could easily have done without it.
I think it showed that Ennis was always there for his boss so when he asked for time off to be with Jack his boss would say yes.
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The scene I don't care for is when Ennis drops the girls off at the store while Alma is working. Again, it shows Ennis's ability to get Alma to do what he wants, but I can see no other purpose for that scene. I could easily have done without it.
I think it showed that Ennis was always there for his boss so when he asked for time off to be with Jack his boss would say yes.
Or maybe to show the difference between his relationship with Alma and his relationship with Jack? With Alma, he tells her that he has to go to his job, whereas with Jack he's happy to take off into the mountains regardless of what his foreman would say...
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I don't like the scene where Jack is demonstrating a machine to some farmers and two of them in the office with Lureen say 'didn't that piss-ant used to ride the bulls?' and 'he used to try' I just hate that. Poor Jack. But then again it's scenes like that and the one with the clown that make me love Ennis all the more. HE appreciated Jack, and you can see that in a life where his even his sons teacher doesn't like him, he is a haven for Jack when they are together.
BTW don't exactly know what a piss-ant is. I doubt it's a drunk ant! Maybe a streak of p*** whatever it is JACK IS NOT ONE! %(
I really hate that scene, too...especially when Lureen doesn't stand up for Jack.
*o) A pissant is a small red ant. It's bite is REALLY painful and annoying (makes a bump and itches like hell). It also means a person who is kind of petty or a complainer. I love Jack but he did complain a lot. <^(
Jesseanne, Sorry for the delay in thanking you for informing me what a pissant is. I know it's only a small thing but it drives me mad when I don't exactly know what they mean! ^f^
I don't like the fact that Lureen doesn't stand up for Jack either. :(
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The scene I don't care for is when Ennis drops the girls off at the store while Alma is working. Again, it shows Ennis's ability to get Alma to do what he wants, but I can see no other purpose for that scene. I could easily have done without it.
I think it showed that Ennis was always there for his boss so when he asked for time off to be with Jack his boss would say yes.
Or maybe to show the difference between his relationship with Alma and his relationship with Jack? With Alma, he tells her that he has to go to his job, whereas with Jack he's happy to take off into the mountains regardless of what his foreman would say...
Good point, Lindsay ... He puts work before Alma, and in the early years, Jack before both work and Alma. Later on as his responsibilities grow he can't be as cavalier about quitting jobs at moments notice. That's more for the girls sake and for his pride, I think, not a reflective of caring less about Jack as time goes on. Has to be try to provide for his girls, making child support payments to Alma on time a matter of pride for him after the divorce, while he wasn't so concerned about how well he supported his family when they were together it seems ... confusing ... :s)
This scene, not one of my favourites either, but says a lot about the nature of Ennis and Alma's relationship. He doesn't seem to give much value to Alma's obligations at work. Drops the girls off and heads out without a backward look.
Also sets up Monroe's interest in Alma. Not much of a surprise later on when she ends up married to him.
My least favourite scene, don't know, but one that always makes me cringe is Ennis yelling at Alma when she's off to work an extra evening shift at the store. He's flying off the handle, cussing and kicking that bucket (geez, really kicking the bucket :P ) with the girls in the swing right there. Ennis don't look right .... ::) Know it's meant to show the relationship getting strained, but seems nasty to be like that in front of his children. Maybe that's to show that it is better for the kids when Ennis and Alma finally divorce ...
oh, ah dunno ....
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Judging from the kids' reaction when Ennis is yelling after Alma, he must have done that plenty of times before. The kids are not shocked or crying. They are used to the yelling. By that time, things were getting bad, but it's still a few years before the divorce, judging from the girls' ages in that scene -- about 7 and 9 or so.
You may be right about the store scene, but I think it shows Ennis anger point. He is not going to back down. Is he really going to work, or is he going to meet Jack? On a different thread, it was suggested that this scene was meant to accompany another scene, the one with both Ennis and Jack in the pick-up truck heading out, which was left out of the final cut. If that's the case, it shows us a lot more about Ennis' cavalier attitude towards his wife - do what he wants and let the chips lie where they fall.
I realize the scene introduces the grocer. and that could be why Ang left it in the film.
It still disturbs me more than any other scene. I don't like the scene with the men talking about Jack in front of Lureen, either, or the rodeo clown in the bar scene, but they all have a distinct purpose in the film, IMO.
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Judging from the kids' reaction when Ennis is yelling after Alma, he must have done that plenty of times before. The kids are not shocked or crying. They are used to the yelling. By that time, things were getting bad, but it's still a few years before the divorce, judging from the girls' ages in that scene -- about 7 and 9 or so.
You may be right about the store scene, but I think it shows Ennis anger point. He is not going to back down. Is he really going to work, or is he going to meet Jack? On a different thread, it was suggested that this scene was meant to accompany another scene, the one with both Ennis and Jack in the pick-up truck heading out, which was left out of the final cut. If that's the case, it shows us a lot more about Ennis' cavalier attitude towards his wife - do what he wants and let the chips lie where they fall.
I realize the scene introduces the grocer. and that could be why Ang left it in the film.
It still disturbs me more than any other scene. I don't like the scene with the men talking about Jack in front of Lureen, either, or the rodeo clown in the bar scene, but they all have a distinct purpose in the film, IMO.
I didn't know about that, thanks lamusica, for pointing it out. It means I can see that scene in a different light now, I don't mind Ennis acting like something out of the Stone age, if it's because he was in a hurry to go and meet Jack ::) It's been said before, but it really is so weird how for most of us women on here our sympathy for the women comes a poor second to Ennis and Jack ???
I do find that scene quite difficult to watch, especially when he gives Alma that look, and she immediately agrees to take the girls.I don't think, or at least I don't want to think, that Ennis was ever violent towards Alma, but that look always makes me wonder :(
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Judging from the kids' reaction when Ennis is yelling after Alma, he must have done that plenty of times before. The kids are not shocked or crying. They are used to the yelling. By that time, things were getting bad, but it's still a few years before the divorce, judging from the girls' ages in that scene -- about 7 and 9 or so.
You may be right about the store scene, but I think it shows Ennis anger point. He is not going to back down. Is he really going to work, or is he going to meet Jack? On a different thread, it was suggested that this scene was meant to accompany another scene, the one with both Ennis and Jack in the pick-up truck heading out, which was left out of the final cut. If that's the case, it shows us a lot more about Ennis' cavalier attitude towards his wife - do what he wants and let the chips lie where they fall.
I realize the scene introduces the grocer. and that could be why Ang left it in the film.
It still disturbs me more than any other scene. I don't like the scene with the men talking about Jack in front of Lureen, either, or the rodeo clown in the bar scene, but they all have a distinct purpose in the film, IMO.
I didn't know about that, thanks lamusica, for pointing it out. It means I can see that scene in a different light now, I don't mind Ennis acting like something out of the Stone age, if it's because he was in a hurry to go and meet Jack ::) It's been said before, but it really is so weird how for most of us women on here our sympathy for the women comes a poor second to Ennis and Jack ???
I do find that scene quite difficult to watch, especially when he gives Alma that look, and she immediately agrees to take the girls.I don't think, or at least I don't want to think, that Ennis was ever violent towards Alma, but that look always makes me wonder :(
Just an fyi - the store scene with Ennis and Alma takes place BEFORE Ennis and Jack get back together after four years...the scene is to show how dedicated Ennis is to his job (before his reumnion with Jack)
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Just an fyi - the store scene with Ennis and Alma takes place BEFORE Ennis and Jack get back together after four years...the scene is to show how dedicated Ennis is to his job (before his reumnion with Jack)
You're right, I can't believe I didn't think of that :-[ So, I'm confused now, which scene is supposed to accompany the unseen one of Ennis and Jack in the truck? :-\\
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Just an fyi - the store scene with Ennis and Alma takes place BEFORE Ennis and Jack get back together after four years...the scene is to show how dedicated Ennis is to his job (before his reumnion with Jack)
You're right, I can't believe I didn't think of that :-[ So, I'm confused now, which scene is supposed to accompany the unseen one of Ennis and Jack in the truck? :-\\
I thought the scene of Ennis and Jack in the truck was the first night they met, before they headed up onto Brokeback?
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Just an fyi - the store scene with Ennis and Alma takes place BEFORE Ennis and Jack get back together after four years...the scene is to show how dedicated Ennis is to his job (before his reumnion with Jack)
You're right, I can't believe I didn't think of that :-[ So, I'm confused now, which scene is supposed to accompany the unseen one of Ennis and Jack in the truck? :-\
I thought the scene of Ennis and Jack in the truck was the first night they met, before they headed up onto Brokeback?
Never thought of that. :-\\ I always thought it was of Jack and Ennis heading out for their first camping trip, the morning after the reunion. Next time someone gets a look at that scene (I can't remember where to find it!) can you please see if you can tell the kind of truck they're in or the shirts Jack and Ennis are wearing? I got the impression it was Jack's new truck, not the one from that first summer on Brokeback, and that Ennis was wearing his "new" shirt, the one he wore for Jack on reunion day. Seemed to be a scene between the two of them getting in Jack's truck the morning after the motel and the scene of them jumping naked off the cliff .... but NoRein's suggestion makes sense too .... :s)
sorry for the *o) So ...How about that store scene, huh?? ;)
I don't like to think either, CrimsonSky, that Alma was afraid of Ennis physically, but she sure seemed to know not to argue much with him when he said things had to be a certain way. This was after the Fourth of July scene, wasn't it? So she's seen his violent side, maybe was a bit afraid of that without him ever having touched her that way.
Just the thought that he was capable of such actions might have made her back down at times like that in the grocery store. Certainly after she knows about Jack, she's done backing down all the time (that shouting scene that I don't like). Probably figures, what the heck am I trying to keep peace in the family for, my husband is cheating on me!
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I think there's some confusion here. I realize the scene appears in the film before the reunion, but what I am suggesting is that it was shot with the intention of being after the reunion, when Jack and Ennis were getting together on a somewhat regular basis. There is no scene withJack and Ennis in the truck in the movie. It is one of the scenes that did not make it into the film. It's shown many times on this forum in various threads, but did not appear in the film. What someone suggested was that the grocery scene was meant to go with the truck scene, but, for some reason, Ang cut the truck scene, then placed this scene where it finally is. I realize this is conjecture, but it is possible and puts a different spin on the scene -- one that I think is more probable. I see no other real reason for this scene. i do not think Ennis was that devoted to his job. It was only a way to keep bread on the table. He certainly din't mind leaving the job to run off with Jack when the opportunity came along. Just MHO.
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I think there's some confusion here. I realize the scene appears in the film before the reunion, but what I am suggesting is that it was shot with the intention of being after the reunion, when Jack and Ennis were getting together on a somewhat regular basis. There is no scene withJack and Ennis in the truck in the movie. It is one of the scenes that did not make it into the film. It's shown many times on this forum in various threads, but did not appear in the film. What someone suggested was that the grocery scene was meant to go with the truck scene, but, for some reason, Ang cut the truck scene, then placed this scene where it finally is. I realize this is conjecture, but it is possible and puts a different spin on the scene -- one that I think is more probable. I see no other real reason for this scene. i do not think Ennis was that devoted to his job. It was only a way to keep bread on the table. He certainly din't mind leaving the job to run off with Jack when the opportunity came along. Just MHO.
Yes, that's an interesting idea, lamusica. :) Had never heard that before, about Ang having moved scenes into a place different than originally planned. Do you know if that tidbit came from an interview or was it speculation? I find the whole filming process fascinating, it's always intriguing to hear what actually goes on in the minds of the people putting a film together.
Have to say though ... I still have trouble thinking that the grocery scene was meant to take place at any point except during the four years that Jack and Ennis hadn't seen each other, before the first postcard, for a number of reasons. :-\\ The scene just seems logical exactly where it was placed, hadn't thought of it fitting anywhere else ..
It might be romantice to think that Ennis was dropping the girls off to spend a night with Jack, but I wonder, first of all, if Jack would have been all the way up in Wyoming for just a one night (actually part of a night) visit. And from the age of the girls in this scene, I really can't see how Ang would have thought this would be placed later in the story. This scene was also in exactly the same spot as in the screen play, too ... :-\ (, although I guess the sceen play could have been written published based on the final version of the movie rather than the other way around. In addition, Ennis would have shown up in his own truck at the grocery store, not in Jack's, otherwise tongues would wag. We DO see them getting in to Jack's truck together the morning after the reunion, however.
As to whether or not Ennis was devoted to his job, well, ranch hours are any time the stock needs your attention, so if the heifers were calving as Ennis tells Alma, it would have been necessary for Ennis to go there. He would have wanted to keep the job to put the bread on the table, as you say.
Much as we might find the grocery store scene may seem unimportant at first, it does serve to show too that even before Jack showed up again things were not perfect in the Ennis and Alma marriage. This is not my favourite scene by a long shot so probably don't pay much attention to the nuances .... There is also a big continuity error in this scenes (the peanut jars that get broken, first shot has a lot more knocked over than the later shot) which I can't seem to NOT notice every time .. :P
So, I can see where there might be conjecture about Ennis being anxious to drop the girls off to be with Jack, but I (personally!) just have a hard time making that fit.
But I guess that's what makes this scene and the whole film interesting, isn't it? Because it leaves so much up to the viewer, we can all see something different even though we're watching the exact same thing. You have to love that! :)
No wonder we're all anxious for that special addition DVD with the directors and actors commentaries .. many mysteries will be explained!
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You make some good points, Red. I just remember somebody on this forum making the conjecture that this scene went with the photo of Jack and Ennis inside the truck. I can't remember the thread, or I'd look it up, but there are so many threads now, it would take forever.
The point you make about the girls' age, though, is a really good one that shows that scene was always meant to be before the reunion. Thanks for pointing that out. I just like to look at different possibilities. That's what makes this forum so intriguing. I have had my eyes opened to so many varying possibiliities -- all of which just enrich the movie for me.
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So true, lamusica, about the discussions here enriching the whole experience! ^f^
For instance, that one scene I had mentioned that I really get uncomfortable with, the yellng one - as you pointed out, the girls seem used to this so it probably wasn't the first screaming match. Hadn't thought on it that way until you said it. So, thanks for that. ;)
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The scene I don't care for is when Ennis drops the girls off at the store while Alma is working. Again, it shows Ennis's ability to get Alma to do what he wants, but I can see no other purpose for that scene. I could easily have done without it.
I think it showed that Ennis was always there for his boss so when he asked for time off to be with Jack his boss would say yes.
Or maybe to show the difference between his relationship with Alma and his relationship with Jack? With Alma, he tells her that he has to go to his job, whereas with Jack he's happy to take off into the mountains regardless of what his foreman would say...
This is also true NoReins. It definitely showed that. But I was thinking more about Ennis' statement to Alma that his boss owed him because he worked through the blizzard the previous Christmas. But it definitely showed Alma came second in Ennis' life, to his work and to Jack.
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sorry for the *o) So ...How about that store scene, huh?? ;)
I don't like to think either, CrimsonSky, that Alma was afraid of Ennis physically, but she sure seemed to know not to argue much with him when he said things had to be a certain way. This was after the Fourth of July scene, wasn't it? So she's seen his violent side, maybe was a bit afraid of that without him ever having touched her that way.
Just the thought that he was capable of such actions might have made her back down at times like that in the grocery store. Certainly after she knows about Jack, she's done backing down all the time (that shouting scene that I don't like). Probably figures, what the heck am I trying to keep peace in the family for, my husband is cheating on me!
You're right, I can definitely see why just the fear of setting Ennis off would be enough to make Alma back down, and even if she wasn't afraid he would hit her, she probably figured that he could be moody enough at the best of times, and it just wasn't worth antagonising him. I think Ennis possibly felt embarrassed, in a way, that Alma had to work at all, that he wasn't able to provide for his wife and kids by himself, and it made him feel a bit better to think of himself as the main breadwinner,with his job taking priority over Alma's, and it was probably easier for Alma to let him think that ???
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You make some good points, Red. I just remember somebody on this forum making the conjecture that this scene went with the photo of Jack and Ennis inside the truck. I can't remember the thread, or I'd look it up, but there are so many threads now, it would take forever.
The point you make about the girls' age, though, is a really good one that shows that scene was always meant to be before the reunion. Thanks for pointing that out. I just like to look at different possibilities. That's what makes this forum so intriguing. I have had my eyes opened to so many varying possibiliities -- all of which just enrich the movie for me.
Thanks for clearing that up, lamusica :) I have to say, I agree that the girls' age kind of dismisses the possibility that Ennis was meeting Jack, although the scene could maybe have been just after the reunion, maybe Jack went to see his parents after the reunion fishing trip, then popped in to Riverton for an over-night stay on the way back to Texas ???
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We'll think of anything to get those two boys more time together, won't we? Anything's possible!
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Oh, I think the other scene I didn't care for much was after Ennis leaves Alma and Monroe's home.... and he gets out of his car and gets beaten by the driver. I dont see the need for it. We already know Ennis was extremely angry after his argument and we already know he's got a short fuse when it comes to his temper....
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Oh, I think the other scene I didn't care for much was after Ennis leaves Alma and Monroe's home.... and he gets out of his car and gets beaten by the driver. I dont see the need for it. We already know Ennis was extremely angry after his argument and we already know he's got a short fuse when it comes to his temper....
True, Gyllenhallic, that's a good point; it has already been established that Ennis has a temper that can flare up out of seemingly nowhere.
I think this time, though, it also shows how Ennis reacts when someone lets on they KNOW what he and Jack have been doing together all those years. His sexuality - and to his mind his masculinity - has been questioned and he's not having it. Nothing says Manly Man like getting into a brawl I guess, win or lose. :P Helps to set up his nasty and uncalled for attack on poor Jack later on at the lake, too, when Jack suggests Ennis might want to try some place new if he's worried about the suspicions of people in his home town.
I squirm at that "maybe you should try someplace new" scene because of how mean Ennis sounds, but now that you mention the above, I guess I can see how Ennis was feeling very exposed by then. The thought of leaving Riverton for Texas, where more people might have the chance to catch on to his relationship with Jack must have driven him to lash out at Jack with words the way he had at that unlucky truck driver with his fists. :-\\
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Oh, I think the other scene I didn't care for much was after Ennis leaves Alma and Monroe's home.... and he gets out of his car and gets beaten by the driver. I dont see the need for it. We already know Ennis was extremely angry after his argument and we already know he's got a short fuse when it comes to his temper....
True, Gyllenhallic, that's a good point; it has already been established that Ennis has a temper that can flare up out of seemingly nowhere.
I think this time, though, it also shows how Ennis reacts when someone lets on they KNOW what he and Jack have been doing together all those years. His sexuality - and to his mind his masculinity - has been questioned and he's not having it. Nothing says Manly Man like getting into a brawl I guess, win or lose. :P Helps to set up his nasty and uncalled for attack on poor Jack later on at the lake, too, when Jack suggests Ennis might want to try some place new if he's worried about the suspicions of people in his home town.
I squirm at that "maybe you should try someplace new" scene because of how mean Ennis sounds, but now that you mention the above, I guess I can see how Ennis was feeling very exposed by then. The thought of leaving Riverton for Texas, where more people might have the chance to catch on to his relationship with Jack must have driven him to lash out at Jack with words the way he had at that unlucky truck driver with his fists. :-\\
Ah, good point :) It is really the first time Ennis has been called out on his relationship with Jack. And he doesn't expect it, which adds to why he gets so upset about it and gets physical with Alma.
Yes, I've always thought of Ennis's fight with the driver as his way of proving his masculinity. (Like you said, win or lose, you're still a manly man!) Also a combination of feeling like people know, and wanting to attack them simply because they might.
I agree, I also feel for Jack when Ennis is cruel to him down by the lake... and Jack tells him to "go to hell". Something about it feels so.... uncomfortable. :-\\
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I agree, I also feel for Jack when Ennis is cruel to him down by the lake... and Jack tells him to "go to hell". Something about it feels so.... uncomfortable. :-\
Good word for it, Gyllenhallic, that's exactly how it makes me feel! It's where WE really start to be aware of the strain their relationship is under, what it's costing them ... making the later "GDB of an unsatisfactory situation" very believeable ... as well as the "can't stand this anymore" .... :( That last fight was a long time coming, built on moments like the ones above ... :(
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Yes, for some reason when I watch that scene.... I have that feeling I'm actually there with them and that Jack and Ennis just had that argument and now I'm just sitting there with that feeling of awkwardness.... :-\\
But you're right, that argument really does show that their relationship is becoming increasingly difficult.... and also shows us that Jack and Ennis are pretty much the best and worst things for eachother. :\'(
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It's not really a scene that I dislike, but part of a scene.
It's the scene after Jack washes his clothes in the stream, the maku-up cuddle in the tent. the kiss and all, and then at 33:44 till 34:05 minutes there is a take which totally throws me off.
Here you don't see Ennis and Jack making love, but two actors having an uncomfortable scene, especially Heath is looking like he is totally out of character and uncomfortable...
It's the rubbing of the chest, and the closing of the eyes that makes it unbelievable.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg116.imageshack.us%2Fimg116%2F3361%2Fbrokebackmountain001hy5.jpg&hash=8402eb9bf2ee33e9efffde961dfd77b79e81a58a)
O well, I'll get over it...
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It's not really a scene that I dislike, but part of a scene.
It's the scene after Jack washes his clothes in the stream, the maku-up cuddle in the tent. the kiss and all, and then at 33:44 till 34:05 minutes there is a take which totally throws me off.
Here you don't see Ennis and Jack making love, but two actors having an uncomfortable scene, especially Heath is looking like he is totally out of character and uncomfortable...
It's the rubbing of the chest, and the closing of the eyes that makes it unbelievable.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg116.imageshack.us%2Fimg116%2F3361%2Fbrokebackmountain001hy5.jpg&hash=8402eb9bf2ee33e9efffde961dfd77b79e81a58a)
O well, I'll get over it...
The whole idea of Heath playing it like that is to make Ennis look shy/uncomfortable.He is not used to it,being with a man in that way.
J.x
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It's not really a scene that I dislike, but part of a scene.
It's the scene after Jack washes his clothes in the stream, the maku-up cuddle in the tent. the kiss and all, and then at 33:44 till 34:05 minutes there is a take which totally throws me off.
Here you don't see Ennis and Jack making love, but two actors having an uncomfortable scene, especially Heath is looking like he is totally out of character and uncomfortable...
It's the rubbing of the chest, and the closing of the eyes that makes it unbelievable.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg116.imageshack.us%2Fimg116%2F3361%2Fbrokebackmountain001hy5.jpg&hash=8402eb9bf2ee33e9efffde961dfd77b79e81a58a)
O well, I'll get over it...
The whole idea of Heath playing it like that is to make Ennis look shy/uncomfortable.He is not used to it,being with a man in that way.
J.x
I agree, and the whole scene in its total is beautiful shot and gives that fibe, but just these 15 seconds...
I dont know... I feel, if they deleted that take, It would have been perfect.
It just feels 'off'... Its more of a 'I have to do it, but really dont want to' than a 'I really want to do it, but I don't know how' feel to it imo.
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I've changed my mind. I did post before that the scene that I disliked the most was the one where the two ranchers call Jack a pissant in front of Lureen. I still don't like that scene, but I have now realized that the one I absolutely hate is the one where Jack has impulsively driven to see Ennis after receiving the postcard about Ennis's divorce and gets turned away. The changes in Jacks expressions from pure joy when he arrives, to the realization that it wasn't Alma keeping Ennis from him but Ennis himself, to the tears in the truck when he leaves are horrible to watch. :(
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I think the fact that Ennis doesn't open his eyes, but caresses Jack's neck and chest with his eyes closed has to be that way. First of all, when your eyes are closed, your other senses are more highly tuned ( at least in my experience). I think Ennis was new at this softer type of gentle love and was literally feeling his way with Jack. I love the tentativeness of his actions in this scene. To me, it made the whole SNIT more believable and more perceptive on Ang's part. People don't always rush into new experiences, but take them slow and gradually, imo.
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It's not really a scene that I dislike, but part of a scene.
It's the scene after Jack washes his clothes in the stream, the maku-up cuddle in the tent. the kiss and all, and then at 33:44 till 34:05 minutes there is a take which totally throws me off.
Here you don't see Ennis and Jack making love, but two actors having an uncomfortable scene, especially Heath is looking like he is totally out of character and uncomfortable...
It's the rubbing of the chest, and the closing of the eyes that makes it unbelievable.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg116.imageshack.us%2Fimg116%2F3361%2Fbrokebackmountain001hy5.jpg&hash=8402eb9bf2ee33e9efffde961dfd77b79e81a58a)
O well, I'll get over it...
The whole idea of Heath playing it like that is to make Ennis look shy/uncomfortable.He is not used to it,being with a man in that way.
J.x
I agree, and the whole scene in its total is beautiful shot and gives that fibe, but just these 15 seconds...
I dont know... I feel, if they deleted that take, It would have been perfect.
It just feels 'off'... Its more of a 'I have to do it, but really dont want to' than a 'I really want to do it, but I don't know how' feel to it imo.
Hmmm... I dont agree... I mean: when I saw it the first and all the following times I thought: "hmmm... Jake Gyllenhaal is uncomfortable!"... Check the way he kisses Heath's forehead. HE DOESN'T! He just keeps his lips on his forehead and nothing more! Check it please! And you will see it too!
Heath on the contrary has passion in his hand caressing him. And sort of "pain" in his closed eyes...
No, i think Heath was almost always comfortable in those scenes. Not Jake. (Check also the Reunion Kiss scene...).
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I actually found them both to be completely believable. They both seemed tentative - cautious in their approach to the other. Jack seemed to be savouring having Ennis there. Maybe I'm weird, but if I have a soft piece of velvet in my hands I nearly always rub it across my lower face and mouth because I like the feel of it, I just thought Jack was doing the same. Just pressing his lips onto something he liked. The way if you are holding a baby you may put your face in their hair and smell them. I thought it showed that he cherished Ennis and didn't just see him sexually. Ennis was doing the same, feeling Jacks face, hair and body. Just my opinion... :)
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I actually found them both to be completely believable. They both seemed tentative - cautious in their approach to the other. Jack seemed to be savouring having Ennis there. Maybe I'm weird, but if I have a soft piece of velvet in my hands I nearly always rub it across my lower face and mouth because I like the feel of it, I just thought Jack was doing the same. Just pressing his lips onto something he liked. The way if you are holding a baby you may put your face in their hair and smell them. I thought it showed that he cherished Ennis and didn't just see him sexually. Ennis was doing the same, feeling Jacks face, hair and body. Just my opinion... :)
I like how you expressed here your feelings, Rosie! ;)
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Oh well, I'll get over it! :D
IT was just the one thing I disliked about the movie, could not help interpreted it that way.
It was just like I was smiling and totaly 'in 'the scene' and that 15 seconds it was sort of a Ally McBeal moment (with the record scratch)
But I just watched it again, and there is just one crusial thing I missed.
When they are in the tent and start kissing and Ennis seems to be very nervous jacks whispers very soft 'it's allright, it's allright..' wich totaly throws the scene in a differnt light, and I'll have to agree what you guys are saying.
I'm sorry I missed that...
But its really REALLY soft! ::)
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Oh well, I'll get over it! :D
IT was just the one thing I disliked about the movie, could not help interpreted it that way.
It was just like I was smiling and totaly 'in 'the scene' and that 15 seconds it was sort of a Ally McBeal moment (with the record scratch)
But I just watched it again, and there is just one crusial thing I missed.
When they are in the tent and start kissing and Ennis seems to be very nervous jacks whispers very soft 'it's allright, it's allright..' wich totaly throws the scene in a differnt light, and I'll have to agree what you guys are saying.
I'm sorry I missed that...
But its really REALLY soft! ::)
If you listen really closely you will hear Ennis say "I'm Sorry" just before Jack says it's alright;)...Glad you heard that at least.And this thread is way off topic.lol
J.x
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Of course, I love this movie as is.. but one scene.. line, actually I hate and wish it was done differently was when Jack says...
"sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.'
To me it just sounded so fake and wooden, like he was reading it off the script. To me it had no emotion, none of Jake's wonderful facial expressions...
:( :( :(
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Of course, I love this movie as is.. but one scene.. line, actually I hate and wish it was done differently was when Jack says...
"sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.'
To me it just sounded so fake and wooden, like he was reading it off the script. To me it had no emotion, none of Jake's wonderful facial expressions...
:( :( :(
Ah! But isn't that the point of the scene CherryCake? Jack is normally a happy guy and full of physical expression. Here he is in the pits of sadness and lonelyness and is trying to tell Ennis how much he is in love with him and needs him. Perhaps he is also reflecting on their relationship?
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Of course, I love this movie as is.. but one scene.. line, actually I hate and wish it was done differently was when Jack says...
"sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.'
To me it just sounded so fake and wooden, like he was reading it off the script. To me it had no emotion, none of Jake's wonderful facial expressions...
:( :( :(
Ah! But isn't that the point of the scene CherryCake? Jack is normally a happy guy and full of physical expression. Here he is in the pits of sadness and lonelyness and is trying to tell Ennis how much he is in love with him and needs him. Perhaps he is also reflecting on their relationship?
I also think he is so extremely scared that by saying this he will raise the opposite reaction he is looking for from Ennis. Scare him off instead of make him understand how much Jack needs him. "the thing is............sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it." The hesitation before he actually says it, to me, shows his apprehension of putting this thought into words. Just my opinion.
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I'm with you, BBMaddict. I think that little pause before Jack really comes out with his thoughts makes that line so meaningful. That always makes me cry. Here Jack is, risking telling his gut-wrenching emotions, not knowing how Ennis will respond. When he doesn't respond at all, I am sure Jack is hurt. He never expects too much from Ennis, and that is a good thing because Ennis so seldom ever gives him anything to go on. I'm sure at times Jack would have thought he was in this thing all by himself.
This is one of my favorite lines and scenes.
Of course, I love this movie as is.. but one scene.. line, actually I hate and wish it was done differently was when Jack says...
"sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.'
To me it just sounded so fake and wooden, like he was reading it off the script. To me it had no emotion, none of Jake's wonderful facial expressions...
:( :( :(
Ah! But isn't that the point of the scene CherryCake? Jack is normally a happy guy and full of physical expression. Here he is in the pits of sadness and lonelyness and is trying to tell Ennis how much he is in love with him and needs him. Perhaps he is also reflecting on their relationship?
I also think he is so extremely scared that by saying this he will raise the opposite reaction he is looking for from Ennis. Scare him off instead of make him understand how much Jack needs him. "the thing is............sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it." The hesitation before he actually says it, to me, shows his apprehension of putting this thought into words. Just my opinion.
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I'm with you, BBMaddict. I think that little pause before Jack really comes out with his thoughts makes that line so meaningful. That always makes me cry. Here Jack is, risking telling his gut-wrenching emotions, not knowing how Ennis will respond. When he doesn't respond at all, I am sure Jack is hurt. He never expects too much from Ennis, and that is a good thing because Ennis so seldom ever gives him anything to go on. I'm sure at times Jack would have thought he was in this thing all by himself.
This is one of my favorite lines and scenes.
I also think he is so extremely scared that by saying this he will raise the opposite reaction he is looking for from Ennis. Scare him off instead of make him understand how much Jack needs him. "the thing is............sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it." The hesitation before he actually says it, to me, shows his apprehension of putting this thought into words. Just my opinion.
It is definately one of the most poinant scenes to me, but in the vein of this thread, one I dislike the most because of the way it makes me feel. I just want to grab Ennis and scream "Say SOMETHING. Let him know how YOU feel!!" It's a great scene, one that in my opinion, could not have been done away with, just leaves me with that "funny" feeling in the pit of my stomach.
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Of course, I love this movie as is.. but one scene.. line, actually I hate and wish it was done differently was when Jack says...
"sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.'
To me it just sounded so fake and wooden, like he was reading it off the script. To me it had no emotion, none of Jake's wonderful facial expressions...
:( :( :(
Ah! But isn't that the point of the scene CherryCake? Jack is normally a happy guy and full of physical expression. Here he is in the pits of sadness and lonelyness and is trying to tell Ennis how much he is in love with him and needs him. Perhaps he is also reflecting on their relationship?
I also think he is so extremely scared that by saying this he will raise the opposite reaction he is looking for from Ennis. Scare him off instead of make him understand how much Jack needs him. "the thing is............sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it." The hesitation before he actually says it, to me, shows his apprehension of putting this thought into words. Just my opinion.
The first couple of times I watched the movie, I felt the same way as CherryCake, but after a few more viewings I came to the same conclusions as Patriot1 and BBMaddict, particularly the bit about the pause between "the truth is..." and "sometimes I miss you..." It's been said on another thread that Jack was saying "I love you" with that line, so it makes sense that he would take his time, thinking of the right way to say it, and whether he should even say it at all. The way he says the "I miss you..." line backs this up too, imo, he kind of blurts it out all in one go, as if he's still not sure if he should say it, so he does it quickly before he can change his mind.
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Of course, I love this movie as is.. but one scene.. line, actually I hate and wish it was done differently was when Jack says...
"sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.'
To me it just sounded so fake and wooden, like he was reading it off the script. To me it had no emotion, none of Jake's wonderful facial expressions...
:( :( :(
Ah! But isn't that the point of the scene CherryCake? Jack is normally a happy guy and full of physical expression. Here he is in the pits of sadness and lonelyness and is trying to tell Ennis how much he is in love with him and needs him. Perhaps he is also reflecting on their relationship?
To me the acting to me was off. Reflecting on thier relationship? Hasn't he been doing this the last 20 years? I understand the point of the scene, and the words are great. The deilvery just didn't fit to me. I understand people would bristle at this scene I didn't like... and I still don't after many, many viewings...
No wonder Ennis didn't recieve and react as many people wanted to that line... I didn't feel it.
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I don't exactly dislike this scene but, the "see you for supper" scene hits a raw nerve with me every time.
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I've been racking my brain, to find a scene I really dislike. I was looking for something I dislike because it is not well done. To be honest: I can't find a scene that should have been cut, or even added. Even though: There is one thing that has come up: In the short story there is the mention of "the brilliant charge of their love making that never changed" or something like that, quite late in their relationship. I do think there is something missing there. So, what I dislike the most is a scene that isn't in the movie.Kind of daft, isn't it :s)
monicita
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I've been racking my brain, to find a scene I really dislike. I was looking for something I dislike because it is not well done. To be honest: I can't find a scene that should have been cut, or even added. Even though: There is one thing that has come up: In the short story there is the mention of "the brilliant charge of their love making that never changed" or something like that, quite late in their relationship. I do think there is something missing there. So, what I dislike the most is a scene that isn't in the movie.Kind of daft, isn't it :s)
monicita
Not to me. I agree completely. :)
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Rosie, Monicita - I understand what you mean.
I get the impression from many posts here (certainly it's that way for me) that maybe "dislike" is a misleading description. Sometimes it's about the scenes that make us the most uncomfortable or hurt us because we see how badly Jack and/or Ennis are hurting. A part of you wishes that never had to happen. Some may actually dislike a scene for one reason or another but for a lot of us it's that we're unhappy because of the way it leaves us feeling. Which is part of great film making. :)
And I would have liked that "brilliant charge" thing too, Monicita, although since we got SNIT and them sleeping contently together that very last camping tirp, I'm willing to forgive!
Scene that hurts me the hardest: The divorce misunderstanding. It's completely brilliant and part of me hates it because of what it means to Jack and Ennis's relationship ... love and hate that scene, two sides of the same coin ... :(
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I can't say that I really dislike this scene, but the hardest scene for me to watch has to be the scene where Jack comes to see Ennis after the divorce. The transition from Jack so excited and happy to his tears after being rejected by Ennis is so powerful. You can almost hear Jack's heart breaking when he realizes that Ennis still will not start a life with him even after the divorce. This to me is the saddest scene in the movie. I see it as a real turning point for Jack. I may be wrong, but I don't think we see Jack smile again for the rest of the movie. He is still willing to play by Ennis' s rules, what else can he do, but it is breaking his heart. Maybe I dislike it because it is so traumatic for Jack. Wish it could have ended happier... but then I guess it wouldn't be the movie we all love would it?
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It's not really a scene that I dislike, but part of a scene.
It's the scene after Jack washes his clothes in the stream, the maku-up cuddle in the tent. the kiss and all, and then at 33:44 till 34:05 minutes there is a take which totally throws me off.
Here you don't see Ennis and Jack making love, but two actors having an uncomfortable scene, especially Heath is looking like he is totally out of character and uncomfortable...
It's the rubbing of the chest, and the closing of the eyes that makes it unbelievable.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg116.imageshack.us%2Fimg116%2F3361%2Fbrokebackmountain001hy5.jpg&hash=8402eb9bf2ee33e9efffde961dfd77b79e81a58a)
O well, I'll get over it...
You know, thats odd, because when Ennis is rubbing against Jake like that, thats one of my favorite parts in the entire movie ;D . So beautiful, he was like a child, i love it! I think Heath was Ennis in that scene. Ennis was meant to be uncomfortable and nervous as hell, and though it could of been Heath's real anxiety, it turned out great IMO. Jake does it perfectly well, Jack is the teacher, and he doesn't act scared at all, when Ennis comes for some love, so sad, can't think, i'll die
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I loved ,loved, loved ! every part of this scene. It's shocking and heartwarming at the same time. But the scene I disliked the most was when they came down off the mountain and they are talking by the truck. you just know Jack is waiting for some kind of akknowledgment from Ennis that their experience on Brokeback mountain meant something special. The expressions on Jack's face , misty eyed,full of sadness at their parting, almost pleadingly hoping for a word , a gesture , ANYTHING. I felt so bad for em. Wanted to shake Ennis and beg him NOT to marry Alma.
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I loved ,loved, loved ! every part of this scene. It's shocking and heartwarming at the same time. But the scene I disliked the most was when they came down off the mountain and they are talking by the truck. you just know Jack is waiting for some kind of akknowledgment from Ennis that their experience on Brokeback mountain meant something special. The expressions on Jack's face , misty eyed,full of sadness at their parting, almost pleadingly hoping for a word , a gesture , ANYTHING. I felt so bad for em. Wanted to shake Ennis and beg him NOT to marry Alma.
So true! The look on Jack's face when Ennis says "Like I said me and Alma's getting married in November" :\'( so sad!
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You know reading these posts has made me realise that I'm affected by ALL the scenes where Jack gets rejected or hurt. The fight on the last day on the mountain. Their parting after. The clown. Being ignored when the grandparents visit the baby. The ain't gonna be that way scene. After the divorce. Mexico. The piss-ant. The whole of the last trip. But they make the few scenes of our boys happiness all the sweeter. The highs and lows are extreme. And the pain of Ennis at the end....and all the way through the film....Ennis just doesn't let us see it.
Sorry if I'm a little *o) :\'(
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I really hate the hospital room scene when jack's father-on-law treats him like a slave. It ties in with the Thanksgiving scene at Jack's home. Again, he is made to look foolish until he finally has had enough and stands up for himself. I hate to see anyone put down and degraded, so this scene bother me.
The other Thanksgiving scene bothers me,t oo. It is obvious that Alma doesn't really want Ennis at her house, but then she brings up the taboo topic that she should have brought up years ago. I'm sure that came out of the blue to Ennis. I don't think he knew Alma had seen him kissing Jack, or trapped him with the note in the fishing kit. These scenes are necessary to the story, but leave me uncomfortable.
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I just realized i sorta hate the scene where Ennis picks a fight with the guy in the truck.
1. Because Ennis loses
2.Because when he's laying on the ground, being held down, thats like a rape, i always squirm at that part, its just terrible, and if you read my ff, Ennis doesn't do too well with rape :\'(
3.Ennis started the fight
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I really hate the hospital room scene when jack's father-on-law treats him like a slave.
Not really important to the discussion lamusica, but it wasn't in the hospital. They were at Jack's house. The way you can tell is the hallway. It is much too narrow and that 90 degree turn would not allow a bed to be taken from the room. And besides, the bed has a "bookcase" headboard which is not hospital issue.
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I really hate the hospital room scene when jack's father-on-law treats him like a slave.
Not really important to the discussion lamusica, but it wasn't in the hospital. They were at Jack's house. The way you can tell is the hallway. It is much too narrow and that 90 degree turn would not allow a bed to be taken from the room. And besides, the bed has a "bookcase" headboard which is not hospital issue.
And then there is the matter of the formula. If the baby was on formula the hospital would provide it. Jack wouldn't be bringing it in. Especially 120 cans of formula.
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I did not like the fireworks scene...i cannot explain why, it just made me uncomfortable!
I didn't like the girls crying. Those girls were sure crybabies. Drives you nuts.
I can understand why you or anyone wouldn't care for the scene, but I don't mind it. Or, I should say, it's not my least favorite. I don't like the music, and don't like the idiot bikers, but I like when Ennis beats the crap out of them, and I like that it shows, I believe, Alma kind of freaking out to see Ennis's violence like that.
kathy
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Speaking of Ennis's violence, I really got uncomfortable about his *abuse* toward Alma after 4th viewing. I found it disturbing to watch in the scene when Alma confronted Ennis about fishing trip. My heart was just pounding so fast. As much as I cherish the romance between Ennis and Jack, Ennis is sexiest to me and I really feel sorry about Alma.
That bothered me, too. Not as much when he grabbed her arm, but when he raised his fist, and not just for a second, but for a long time. Overtly threatening her with violence -- uncool, Ennis, uncool.
kathy
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Speaking of Ennis's violence, I really got uncomfortable about his *abuse* toward Alma after 4th viewing. I found it disturbing to watch in the scene when Alma confronted Ennis about fishing trip. My heart was just pounding so fast. As much as I cherish the romance between Ennis and Jack, Ennis is sexiest to me and I really feel sorry about Alma.
I think Ennis' reaction in that scene was caused by fear. It seemed to me that Ennis could never forget the memory of those old cowboys that were murdered for being gay. Seeing such a terrible sight at the tender age of nine scarred Ennis for life. That fear was what kept him from buying a ranch with Jack, and I think that when Alma outed him, it brought that memory to the surface, and Ennis was terrified. He never had a large repertoire of reactions to stress to begin with, and violence was probably the one that came easiest. I don't think that scene could have turned out any other way.
Good way to look at it. Of course I understand where Ennis is coming from, his responses and reactions to life. But specifically to this scene, this would be his absolute biggest fear, that he should be found out, because then he'd be Earl, or Jack would, one. So his violent reaction totally makes sense for the story. Still bothers me of course, in the moments when I relate to and feel back for the women...but I don't go there too much...
kathy
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I wish that Ennis had not said, "Once burned" to Alma." I thought that this was out of character. Ennis didn't seem to blame anyone for any of his misfortunes and I found this comment particularly cruel, which I didn't find Ennis to be. I don't remember if he says this in the story.
I didn't care for Ennis saying that, either. It was definitely not an Ennis-type comment, not in character, or so it felt to me. And anyway, he wasn't burned, Alma was. Except that he has to pay child support. But I don't imagine he has any resentment of that really. He would know that's the right thing to do and would never consider not supporting the girls. So what does he even mean by that comment really?
Come to think of it, when he says "once burned," he doesn't know yet that Alma knows about him and Jack. He doesn't yet know that she knows that she was really the one that was burned.
kathy
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If you go to the DID ANYONE FIND IT STRANGE thread they are talking about the "once burned" to Alma scene. Everyone was saying, including me, that it was nasty of him. Then someone brought up how mean it was for Ennis to send Jack away after that long drive (something like 1,000 mi.) the day he was looking after his two daughters. Ennis wasnt an angel, he didnt have wings like his daughters.
So true. My predominant feeling is always "poor Ennis," but I certainly see the jerk side of him, too. Most especially, when he says "nobody's eatin' nothing' unless you put it on the table" when Alma has to go out to work.
kathy
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don't like it when jack tells ennis he's got an affair with the farmer's wife, because he is obviously lying to ennis
That's a good one. It makes me very sad that Jack felt he could lie to Ennis...
kathy
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Hands down my least favorite scene is the sledding scene between Alma and Ennis. They just seem too much in love. I wanted Ennis to be pining away after Jack. Yeah, maybe it was included to show Ennis was missing Jack and trying to be playful with Alma, but I thought the scene was unnecessary. It looked to me like Heath and Michelle were loving on each other instead of playing Ennis and Alma. Just my 2 cents. ;)
Snap! I don't like that scene either, probably because, like you say, it just seems rather pointless :-\ (or maybe we've just been spoilt by just about every other scene being so full of meaning? ;)) And I don't know if it's just me, but when Ennis says "y'alright?" to Alma in that scene, he sounds likes he's forgotten to do his accent, it sounds Australian to me ???
Aha -- then it really does seem it was more Heath and Michelle...and he does talk about how in that scene when she hurt her leg, that was the moment he knew he wanted to be with her forever or some such...so it makes it even more Heath and Michelle.
kathy
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OT, partly, because I dislike the scene too, for other reasons. It's a cliche in a movie that signally lacks cliches, I think, and unconvincing since if it's an attempt to show another side of Ennis and Alma before all the ground-down-by-work-and-kids scenes that follow it's too brief and too much of a one-off
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why really I dislike it is that it seems to be Heath and Miochelle - this is when, he said later, he fell in love with her, and to be honest I'd rather see him falling in love with Jack; he does it more convincingly. Now how weird is that?
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I don't care whether they YEE HAW in Texas or not...I love this scene. Jack's so cute, and it DOES make Ennis smile. He pushes Jack down when he says "Tired of your dumbass missing" Then when Jack tells him they have to get a move on to avoid the Game & Fish people, Ennis gives Jack a little slap, but you can't see where it lands...his arm...his butt? ;D
Donna
I agree that Jack was just being silly -- he likes to try to make Ennis laugh. But anyway, oh boy -- going to have to watch again, the little shoving interchange. If I have this right in my memory: first Jack shoves Ennis, when he says yee-haw. Then Ennis shoves Jack, knocks him to his butt. Jack rights himself, says the thing about the Game & Fish people...then Ennis gives Jack a love-tap? Oh boy. (And remember that other love-tap, when Jack's hauling the log up from the river when they're setting up the new camp.) But this is supposed to be about stuff we don't like!
kathy
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I don't like all those scenes in the room over the laundrette, becaue evey day i spend half my waking hours on here my house gets to look more and more like that apartment.
:8
kathy
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Its gotta be the Biker/fairground scene. I don't like obscene use of words,and i just feel that the scene was pointless and not well done, They should of took it out and put in more of Ennis and Jack together,IMO.
I can see why you don't like the scene, cause it's not exactly pleasant to watch, but I don't agree that it's pointless. I think it illustrates very well the sort of person Ennis was, and how he struggled to cope with the world around him. He's trying to be a regular family guy,taking his wife and kids out for a special occasion, even though he hates social events like that, and we see the side of him that wants to do the right thing,all the people around the bikers are obviously offended and intimidated by the bikers, but Ennis is the only one with the guts to tell them to pack it in. Junior and Jenny are too small to really understand what the bikers are saying, so when Ennis tells them to keep it down cause of his girls, it's not just about them, he's speaking for everyone there. We also see how Ennis will only tolerate so much,trying to keep control of himself, but with the violent side of him simmering away quietly until it finally becomes to much, and he explodes in a violent rage. Also, if you look closesly, it's the biker's comment about Ennis not giving it to his wife after the kids were born, that is the trigger that sets him off, you see Alma look nervously at him too, it's clear that she knows the biker's hit a nerve.The biker's comment probably made Ennis feel that paranoia he has about people suspecting, cause his and Alma's sex life clearly isn't particularly satisfying for either of them so, in a way, that scene is about Ennis and Jack, even though Jack isn't there,or even mentioned. In fact, just about every non-Ennis and Jack scene is about the two of them on some level, cause their whole lives are defined by their relationship, and the hardships they endure because of it. Of course, I wish there had been more scenes of Ennis and Jack together (the whole movie could be Ennis and Jack together, and it still wouldn't be enough for me! ;)), but as someone summed it up perfectly in another thread, by not seeing enough Ennis and Jack on screen, we get a real sense of what it was like for them, to never have enough time with each other :(
This is beautiful, CrimsonSky. It hones right in on exactly what Ennis was going through all the time in his life of trying to be a regular guy. I had actually forgotten the biker's comment about not giving it to his wife, because it was a few times before I even really heard what was said there. So that makes it even more integral to the story -- that after that comment was when Ennis exploded. He thinks everyone can tell about him...
kathy
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I don't like the scene where Jack is demonstrating a machine to some farmers and two of them in the office with Lureen say 'didn't that piss-ant used to ride the bulls?' and 'he used to try' I just hate that. Poor Jack. But then again it's scenes like that and the one with the clown that make me love Ennis all the more. HE appreciated Jack, and you can see that in a life where his even his sons teacher doesn't like him, he is a haven for Jack when they are together.
BTW don't exactly know what a piss-ant is. I doubt it's a drunk ant! Maybe a streak of p*** whatever it is JACK IS NOT ONE! %(
Oh I want to cry for poor Jack. This is another thing I hadn't exactly focused on, all the rejection Jack experiences, people not liking him, etc. And a half-rate rodeoer, too. Not even the "best salesman we got" -- he's the only salesman they've got. But Ennis loves him. Oh my heart...
Maybe this is why Jack was open to having a thing with Randall. Who, by the way, I do not dislike personally as so many do -- not sure why, I just like him okay. They managed to pick up on each other's inclinations, and this wasn't easy to do at that time...and then, Jack was starting to get weary, losing hope of having more with Ennis.
kathy
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That's certainly a fresh take on Ol' Randall. We really don't know enough about him to get a feel for who he is and where he is coming from. The thing that just turned me off to Randall was his meet-Jack- an- hour ago- and-then-ask-for-sex routine. He almost treated Jack like some hooker IMO. I don't know, it just seemed so cheesy to me. But, I'll try to cut Randall some slack. Maybe he does have his own Ennis out there.
Randall didn't just up and ask for sex, as I see it. He was taking a big chance, in those days, trying to hint, to be sure Jack wouldn't beat the shit out of him or out him or something. He said it very tastefully, I thought, about the cabin. Saying it just a little more meaningfully than just some straight guy would to another guy, hoping he was getting his meaning across. I could see his fear of rejection, too. And I felt Jack's pain in that scene -- no response to Randall right away, but it looked like a million thoughts and feelings were going on in his head. Is this something I should do?
kathy
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I think the fireworks scene also is put in to show Ennis' care and love for his babies. He wants to protect them, including Alma, from the crude language of the bikers. It also shows his quick temper. I think it helps develope the character of Ennis. Also, at this point in the story, Ennis still takes his family out for some entertainment. Later, after the reunion scene with Jack, he doesn't do that anymore. When Alma wants to go to the church picnic, he refuses. Perhaps that's his guilt working within him. He denies himself any social contacts, outside of his family, because he can't openly have any kind of contact with Jack. ?????
The scene I don't care for is when Ennis drops the girls off at the store while Alma is working. Again, it shows Ennis's ability to get Alma to do what he wants, but I can see no other purpose for that scene. I could easily have done without it.
I understood that that scene with Ennis dropping the girls off was part of a fuller scene that was cut, that Jack was waiting for him. But maybe that was just a rumor. Also, it clearly shows Mr. Grocer is kind of sweet on Alma.
I didn't love the way he stared her down and she had to back down and give in to him...but that was how it was with them, and is a whole other topic.
kathy
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You make some good points, Red. I just remember somebody on this forum making the conjecture that this scene went with the photo of Jack and Ennis inside the truck. I can't remember the thread, or I'd look it up, but there are so many threads now, it would take forever.
The point you make about the girls' age, though, is a really good one that shows that scene was always meant to be before the reunion. Thanks for pointing that out. I just like to look at different possibilities. That's what makes this forum so intriguing. I have had my eyes opened to so many varying possibiliities -- all of which just enrich the movie for me.
I love all this conjecturing. Okay, now, someone find the Jack-and-Ennis-in-truck pic please! The one you've been talking about. The only one such deleted scene I know of with Ennis and Jack in a truck is when they're being driven down the mountain after the summer, when Ennis closes his eyes.
Then, I heard of but never saw, a scene of the night before they get trucked up the mountain, supposedly up all night in Jack's truck talking? (Seems kind of unlikely.)
I hate those continuity slip-ups! I had never noticed the peanut jars on the floor discontinuity. Now I won't be able to not see it. I hate when that happens. *^)
kathy
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I agree, I also feel for Jack when Ennis is cruel to him down by the lake... and Jack tells him to "go to hell". Something about it feels so.... uncomfortable. :-\\
Very sad, Ennis's meanness. We might know where it's coming from, but come on, Ennis, you're with the only person who really knows you -- don't take it out on him. But unfortunately, that's what tends to happen, taking it out on the closest person to you.
Is this the same scene when Jack is talking about Lureen punching in numbers and Ennis says, "That's some real high-class entertainment there." That was just a plain mean remark for no reason.
I guess we can be glad these two heroes aren't really heroes, but flawed men, just like everyone is. It would have been dumb if they were like goody-goody and nary a harsh word from either of them or between them.
It did bother me, though, that too much bickering was shown in their later meetings, and except for the sleeping in the tent shot, no lovemaking or even hugs or anything.
kathy
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I actually found them both to be completely believable. They both seemed tentative - cautious in their approach to the other. Jack seemed to be savouring having Ennis there. Maybe I'm weird, but if I have a soft piece of velvet in my hands I nearly always rub it across my lower face and mouth because I like the feel of it, I just thought Jack was doing the same. Just pressing his lips onto something he liked. The way if you are holding a baby you may put your face in their hair and smell them. I thought it showed that he cherished Ennis and didn't just see him sexually. Ennis was doing the same, feeling Jacks face, hair and body. Just my opinion... :)
That's how I see it, too, Rosie. Both of them, just as you said. And besides, it was awkward at first, and meant to be. (Who knows, if we saw all the takes of this scene, which we would like better or not...but my god, all things considered, Heath and Jake gave us absolutely beautiful and credible characterizations.)
Anyway, right after this, when they go top/bottom and Jack lowers himself onto Ennis and Ennis lifts his head to kiss Jack...well, no problem there. Beautiful...
kathy
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Of course, I love this movie as is.. but one scene.. line, actually I hate and wish it was done differently was when Jack says...
"sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.'
To me it just sounded so fake and wooden, like he was reading it off the script. To me it had no emotion, none of Jake's wonderful facial expressions...
:( :( :(
I can see how you feel this, CC. But I love how he says it. This is a "depressed" person saying this, and I think even saying it kind of flat like he does, I think there's a lot of feeling in it.
kathy
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Rosie, Monicita - I understand what you mean.
I get the impression from many posts here (certainly it's that way for me) that maybe "dislike" is a misleading description. Sometimes it's about the scenes that make us the most uncomfortable or hurt us because we see how badly Jack and/or Ennis are hurting. A part of you wishes that never had to happen. Some may actually dislike a scene for one reason or another but for a lot of us it's that we're unhappy because of the way it leaves us feeling. Which is part of great film making. :)
You're right -- we're all talking about (1) scenes that make us uncomfortable or break our hearts or some such and (2) scenes we didn't think perfectly done or that didn't add to the film as a whole. Seems it's fine to talk about both of these here, yes?
kathy
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I've been reading this thread from the beginning -- very interesting, what we like and don't like and why. I've said some other things I don't care for, or do, in other posts. What I was doing up til late last night. ^*()
But I haven't said my least favorite scene. This isn't a least favorite because of some deep hurt or something it makes me feel -- I like those scenes, though they hurt. It's a least favorite just because it annoys me.
It's the same as Lamusica's -- Lureen in bed with the new baby and her parents come in. It's not because Mr. Newsome is condescending to Jack, though, that I don't like it. It's just the annoying factor. I don't like Lureen's parents and never want to look at them too much (except when Jack finally shoots Mr. Stud Duck down at Thanksgiving). I don't like the tacky little room or their house (though I like the decor in the Thanksgiving scene -- very 70's mid-century modern). And Lureen there all frilly and tucked into bed in the daytime, why?
Although there is a deleted scene that shows Jack sitting on the bed with Lureen and the baby -- I wonder what that was showing. Maybe then the parents came in and Stud Duck moved him out of the way.
kathy
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And I felt Jack's pain in that scene -- no response to Randall right away, but it looked like a million thoughts and feelings were going on in his head. Is this something I should do?
kathy
Not only that Kathy, for the first time in his life JACK was being pursued instead of Jack doing the pursuing. Someone was finding Jack interesting enough to come on to him. I am sure his mind was racing over that one.
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And I felt Jack's pain in that scene -- no response to Randall right away, but it looked like a million thoughts and feelings were going on in his head. Is this something I should do?
kathy
Not only that Kathy, for the first time in his life JACK was being pursued instead of Jack doing the pursuing. Someone was finding Jack interesting enough to come on to him. I am sure his mind was racing over that one.
So true, P1. A new thing for him. Though if life then, and his life, were just slightly different, I don't know how Jack wouldn't have them lined up at his door, hot babe that he was.
kathy
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And I felt Jack's pain in that scene -- no response to Randall right away, but it looked like a million thoughts and feelings were going on in his head. Is this something I should do?
kathy
Not only that Kathy, for the first time in his life JACK was being pursued instead of Jack doing the pursuing. Someone was finding Jack interesting enough to come on to him. I am sure his mind was racing over that one.
So true, P1. A new thing for him. Though if life then, and his life, were just slightly different, I don't know how Jack wouldn't have them lined up at his door, hot babe that he was.
kathy
Perhaps he never took the time to let it happen, or at least understand that it was happening.
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Well, Lureen pursued him pretty successfully. Perhaps after that, like Ennis, Jack thought "Once burned".
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Well, Lureen pursued him pretty successfully. Perhaps after that, like Ennis, Jack thought "Once burned".
I don't think she pursued him as much as they pursued each other. He kept looking at her and thinking, pretty, rich dad, no more rodeoing and she was thinking ah, a way to get back at my dad.
But anyway, I was talking about being pursued by another man. Randall was the first and only one to pursue Jack.
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I really hate the hospital room scene when jack's father-on-law treats him like a slave.
Not really important to the discussion lamusica, but it wasn't in the hospital. They were at Jack's house. The way you can tell is the hallway. It is much too narrow and that 90 degree turn would not allow a bed to be taken from the room. And besides, the bed has a "bookcase" headboard which is not hospital issue.
And then there is the matter of the formula. If the baby was on formula the hospital would provide it. Jack wouldn't be bringing it in. Especially 120 cans of formula.
That explains the formula question I've always wondered about! Thanks for that observation, Patriot. Around the part of the country where I live, even in the 60's, maternity rooms in hospitals were make to look like bedrooms, so the look of the room never alerted me to the fact that the scene occurs at home rather than in a hospital. But, the formula question was always a puzzler. The other peculiar thing was the age of the baby Lurren is holding. That child is 2-3 months old, not a newborn, but she is still in bed????!!!! If this was the first time her parents saw Bobby ( and I think it was because of the comments about who he looks like and the formula they brought), why was he not a newborn?
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I really hate the hospital room scene when jack's father-on-law treats him like a slave.
Not really important to the discussion lamusica, but it wasn't in the hospital. They were at Jack's house. The way you can tell is the hallway. It is much too narrow and that 90 degree turn would not allow a bed to be taken from the room. And besides, the bed has a "bookcase" headboard which is not hospital issue.
And then there is the matter of the formula. If the baby was on formula the hospital would provide it. Jack wouldn't be bringing it in. Especially 120 cans of formula.
That explains the formula question I've always wondered about! Thanks for that observation, Patriot. Around the part of the country where I live, even in the 60's, maternity rooms in hospitals were make to look like bedrooms, so the look of the room never alerted me to the fact that the scene occurs at home rather than in a hospital. But, the formula question was always a puzzler. The other peculiar thing was the age of the baby Lurren is holding. That child is 2-3 months old, not a newborn, but she is still in bed????!!!! If this was the first time her parents saw Bobby ( and I think it was because of the comments about who he looks like and the formula they brought), why was he not a newborn?
As a mother of three children born in the US...the hospital MIGHT provide a few starter cans of formula, but the parents would buy more later. Also, American mothers in the 1950's/1960's were encouraged to feed babies formula (I always thought it was a Madison Avenue ploy to make more money). Depending on the brand, 120 cans of formula would be about 3-6 months worth.
As for the baby not being a newborn (I noticed that, too), I think Ang Lee was dealing with a limited budget and just got a baby (only a woman would notice that child was not a newborn). :8
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Not all women either - I didn't, because I don't do babies. Hated this scene as far as the implications wer concerned, the awful LD taking over and doing that "He's just like me" stuff and Jack getting shut out by the Newsome clan. I think this is where he starts thinking about Ennis again - yes, before you shout, i know there's no reason to think so, but it seems to me just the point at which it becomes evident that they're never going to accept him.
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Not all women either - I didn't, because I don't do babies. Hated this scene as far as the implications wer concerned, the awful LD taking over and doing that "He's just like me" stuff and Jack getting shut out by the Newsome clan. I think this is where he starts thinking about Ennis again - yes, before you shout, i know there's no reason to think so, but it seems to me just the point at which it becomes evident that they're never going to accept him.
Jack looked so sad, lonely and lost at the end of that scene :\'(
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I never liked how Jack's mother put the shirts in a paper bag for Ennis - it was like she was expecting him to take something down from the room that needed wrapped. In the SS it is never mentioned, I had always supposed that Ennis had hidden them himself to get them out of the house. I wonder if this scene was put in to show that Jack's mother was a lot more sympathetic to Ennis? (Sorry if this has been discussed before!)
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Not all women either - I didn't, because I don't do babies. Hated this scene as far as the implications wer concerned, the awful LD taking over and doing that "He's just like me" stuff and Jack getting shut out by the Newsome clan. I think this is where he starts thinking about Ennis again - yes, before you shout, i know there's no reason to think so, but it seems to me just the point at which it becomes evident that they're never going to accept him.
I totally agree. We know that it was about 8 months(give or take a few) after this that Jack meets up with Ennis again. The feeling that he is left out of the Newsome family was certainly a catalyst for him seeking out Ennis. I think he had to be thinking about Ennis prior to this but maybe he was trying to forget or not contact him. This scene with the baby was maybe a wake up call. "These people don't need or want me here" kind of thing so he decides to look up the one person who did need and want him, Ennis
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I never liked how Jack's mother put the shirts in a paper bag for Ennis - it was like she was expecting him to take something down from the room that needed wrapped. In the SS it is never mentioned, I had always supposed that Ennis had hidden them himself to get them out of the house. I wonder if this scene was put in to show that Jack's mother was a lot more sympathetic to Ennis? (Sorry if this has been discussed before!)
WyMe,That is exactly what she was expecting.She wanted Ennis to find the shirts.Watch the little push on his shoulder prior to Ennis going up to Jack's room.
Jennis.x
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Just watched that bit again and noticed the little nudge for the first time - Thanks Jennis! Still don't like how that bag is just sitting there handy though - it's just me!
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Just watched that bit again and noticed the little nudge for the first time - Thanks Jennis! Still don't like how that bag is just sitting there handy though - it's just me!
You're welcome :)...
J.x
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Not all women either - I didn't, because I don't do babies. Hated this scene as far as the implications wer concerned, the awful LD taking over and doing that "He's just like me" stuff and Jack getting shut out by the Newsome clan. I think this is where he starts thinking about Ennis again - yes, before you shout, i know there's no reason to think so, but it seems to me just the point at which it becomes evident that they're never going to accept him.
I don't believe this is where he starts to think about Ennis again Welshwitch. When he was dancing with Lureen before the marriage you could tell by the look on his face and the words to the music he was thinking of Ennis then. However, I would agree with you if you had said the bedroom scene was when he started thinking about contacting Ennis again. It was very clear that "the family" did not include Jack and that L.D. was the head of Jack's household.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe359%2FPatriotOne%2FJackDancesRememberingEnnis.jpg&hash=9e0e8033cad14aea34bdcb7dc3f38ea6373d6e69)
MUSIC: "I know sometimes you felt so sad and lonely. I know sometimes you felt so sad and blue."
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Just watched that bit again and noticed the little nudge for the first time - Thanks Jennis! Still don't like how that bag is just sitting there handy though - it's just me!
Hate to do this to you WyMe, but you will have to watch the movie over again. The bag wasn't just waiting there, it was there with other bags. That is where she kept them. Just like my mom when I was little, the bags were kept between the wall and the breadbox. They were easy to grab when you needed one like she did. They were easy to grab when you needed one to put into the trash can.
Sorry to make you watch the movie again. I know how you really hate doing that. :8
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Just watched that bit again and noticed the little nudge for the first time - Thanks Jennis! Still don't like how that bag is just sitting there handy though - it's just me!
So funny, all our different favorites and not-favorites. That is one of my favorite scenes, Ennis with Jack's mother, and particularly her getting the bag to put the shirts in. (Though I did notice a bag was just sitting here handy, and just one -- not like that's where she kept her paper bags, out on the counter. Boy, if they'd asked all of us to be the continuity observers and such! Nothing would get past us.
kathy
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Just watched that bit again and noticed the little nudge for the first time - Thanks Jennis! Still don't like how that bag is just sitting there handy though - it's just me!
Hate to do this to you WyMe, but you will have to watch the movie over again. The bag wasn't just waiting there, it was there with other bags. That is where she kept them. Just like my mom when I was little, the bags were kept between the wall and the breadbox. They were easy to grab when you needed one like she did. They were easy to grab when you needed one to put into the trash can.
Sorry to make you watch the movie again. I know how you really hate doing that. :8
Oh yeah, thank you. I didn't watch close enough, either. :) I would think, though, if they had me as a set designer, I would have shown that a woman like her, with such a bare house and everything put away, that the bags would have been in the cupboard below the counter. :i
kathy
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Hi patriot - yeah, I see now there are a couple of bags there - too bad I had to watch again! Still I'm kinda with Kathy here, I think since the house was so spare she would have tidied things like that away? I love the scene as a whole. The way there seems to be some sympathy for Ennis from Jack's mother. I didn't pick that up from the SS. It gives you hope that a friendship might develop, which would be some comfort to them both. I like to think that (especially once John is gone) they might meet to talk about Jack - although I suspect the actual nature of Ennis' and Jack's relationship will not be mentioned, they'll just be "good buddies" even though the truth is known.
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Not all women either - I didn't, because I don't do babies. Hated this scene as far as the implications wer concerned, the awful LD taking over and doing that "He's just like me" stuff and Jack getting shut out by the Newsome clan. I think this is where he starts thinking about Ennis again - yes, before you shout, i know there's no reason to think so, but it seems to me just the point at which it becomes evident that they're never going to accept him.
I don't believe this is where he starts to think about Ennis again Welshwitch. When he was dancing with Lureen before the marriage you could tell by the look on his face and the words to the music he was thinking of Ennis then. However, I would agree with you if you had said the bedroom scene was when he started thinking about contacting Ennis again. It was very clear that "the family" did not include Jack and that L.D. was the head of Jack's household.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe359%2FPatriotOne%2FJackDancesRememberingEnnis.jpg&hash=9e0e8033cad14aea34bdcb7dc3f38ea6373d6e69)
MUSIC: "I know sometimes you felt so sad and lonely. I know sometimes you felt so sad and blue."
Spot on on both counts Patriot1. Jack is definitely thinking of Ennis in the scene you pictured (just as Ennis is thinking of Jack when he's having the "not so lonely now" conversation which is either just before or just after this scene) but I think he's thinking "I miss him, but there's nothing I can do about it". In the scene after Bobby's birth, I agree that he starts to think about getting in touch with Ennis again. I guess by then he's thinking he has nothing to lose - if Ennis rejects him then he can just go back to his unhappy family life but if Ennis feels the same then he'll have at least some escape from the misery of what he's stuck with in Texas.
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Just watched that bit again and noticed the little nudge for the first time - Thanks Jennis! Still don't like how that bag is just sitting there handy though - it's just me!
Hate to do this to you WyMe, but you will have to watch the movie over again. The bag wasn't just waiting there, it was there with other bags. That is where she kept them. Just like my mom when I was little, the bags were kept between the wall and the breadbox. They were easy to grab when you needed one like she did. They were easy to grab when you needed one to put into the trash can.
Sorry to make you watch the movie again. I know how you really hate doing that. :8
Oh yeah, thank you. I didn't watch close enough, either. :) I would think, though, if they had me as a set designer, I would have shown that a woman like her, with such a bare house and everything put away, that the bags would have been in the cupboard below the counter. :i
kathy
Kathy, the poor woman didn't have anything. Maybe she used the bags as decoration? ;)
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For me there are two scenes I dislike and can not even watch.
The first is Jack in Mexico. The first time I saw the movie I watched it all the way through but have never seen it again. I absolutely hate this scene and wish it was never put into the movie.
The second is Jack's death. From viewing one as soon as the man raised the tireiron I knew what was going to happen and almost lost my lunch. I have never seen this scene again, although I don't wish it had not been put into the movie. I think it was necessary.
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I hate the tire-iron sequence but it is of course necessary so that we can see what Ennis thinks happened to Jack.
The other is more problematic - it shows Jack driven by desperation, i suppose, and as doing something he might not have done otherwise. It's immedictaely after that toal dashing of his hopes by Ennis, and has left him for the moment with nowhere he wants to go or be. It's honest and like all honest things not neccessarily comfortable, but I think it rings true - I can imagine doing something just as reckless and out of character if I were as bitter and miserable as Jack must be at this moment.
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I always get goose pumps when i watch Jack getting murdered. Its too much, IMO. Yes its appopriate and i don't hate the scene itself, but when they show his face in pain, that gets me. Just like the "Well, he said it was his favorite place" >Thats powerful, IMO, i'm almost crying now just thinking about it. :\'(
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I just consider this another put-down of Jack -- anything to make him feel worthless. This is especially hurtful since he halped make that beautiful baby!
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I actually love both Family thanksgiving scenes. I liked Ennis and Alms confrontation, but i couldn't help but feel so sorry for Ennis when he's like rocking himself back and forth. Alma goes overboard, but she felt powerful with a new life and all. I love that scene ;D
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I hate those guys and especially their remarks about Jack...morons!!! ^*)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi76.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj18%2Fhpv1515%2FBBM%2FBBM011413M.jpg&hash=81ad245322682cc2976cd5ce06074a694e604021)
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I dislike that scene to, but i don't hate it, because it plays THE WINGS in it, and that song makes me sad.
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May I change my mind? The look on Jack's face as Ennis drives away (for the last time). Is it anger, frustration or the grim realisation that he is going to split with Ennis and try make a go of it with Randall. It's so hard to tell because in the film you don't see how they part - what are going to be their last words...
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It strikes me as total desolation, as he realises that he's lost everything - his hopes, however unrealistic, for a future with Ennis, his marriage, which he's said is empty,and any hope of any sense that showing Ennis his depest emotions will have some sort of impact on him sufficient to make him change in any way.
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It strikes me as total desolation, as he realises that he's lost everything - his hopes, however unrealistic, for a future with Ennis, his marriage, which he's said is empty,and any hope of any sense that showing Ennis his depest emotions will have some sort of impact on him sufficient to make him change in any way.
:\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
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I'm not a big fan of the irrigation ditch scene. Don't get me wrong, it's good in the movie... but when I watch the movie now, after seeing it over and over, I just fast forward past it.
I also tend to skip over the divorce court scene and the scene where poor Ennis is being kicked away at on the wet, cold street. Both of those are just too sad for me. They are great in the whole movie, but sometimes I just feel like watching the good times between Jack and Ennis.
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The 4th of July scene.
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The 4th of July scene.
I didn't like this scene either.
I must admit though, I love this picture (mainly just for the impact the fireworks have) . . .
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.squashduck.com%2Fltd%2Fbbm%2Fimages%2Fimages%2FPDVD_073_jpg.jpg&hash=559616858e5af0e954c82858bfc392ca8f9bbccd)
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The scene in Mexico :\'( :\'( :\'(
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh112%2FFroglet125%2FMexico.jpg&hash=299196f61593df1c00c2d7ac93841effeb0ed4de)
Jack clearly doesn't want to be there. But want and need are two entirely different things.
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The scene in Mexico :\'( :\'( :\'(
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh112%2FFroglet125%2FMexico.jpg&hash=299196f61593df1c00c2d7ac93841effeb0ed4de)
Jack clearly doesn't want to be there. But want and need are two entirely different things.
Same here :(
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The 4th of July scene.
I didn't like this scene either.
I must admit though, I love this picture (mainly just for the impact the fireworks have) . . .
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.squashduck.com%2Fltd%2Fbbm%2Fimages%2Fimages%2FPDVD_073_jpg.jpg&hash=559616858e5af0e954c82858bfc392ca8f9bbccd)
I both like and dislike this scene. I dislike violence yet I was happy Ennis protected his family from these two ignorant men.
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The scene in Mexico :\'( :\'( :\'(
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh112%2FFroglet125%2FMexico.jpg&hash=299196f61593df1c00c2d7ac93841effeb0ed4de)
Jack clearly doesn't want to be there. But want and need are two entirely different things.
I have never liked the Mexico scene and it is one of two scenes I fast forward through when watching the movie. The other scene being Jack's death.
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The scene in Mexico :\'( :\'( :\'(
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh112%2FFroglet125%2FMexico.jpg&hash=299196f61593df1c00c2d7ac93841effeb0ed4de)
Jack clearly doesn't want to be there. But want and need are two entirely different things.
I have never liked the Mexico scene and it is one of two scenes I fast forward through when watching the movie. The other scene being Jack's death.
It is interesting that I do like the Juarez scene. I think it has a great deal to do with the music, which is wonderfully apt...
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The scene in Mexico :\'( :\'( :\'(
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh112%2FFroglet125%2FMexico.jpg&hash=299196f61593df1c00c2d7ac93841effeb0ed4de)
Jack clearly doesn't want to be there. But want and need are two entirely different things.
I have never liked the Mexico scene and it is one of two scenes I fast forward through when watching the movie. The other scene being Jack's death.
It is interesting that I do like the Juarez scene. I think it has a great deal to do with the music, which is wonderfully apt...
I don't dislike it, either. At least, I don't FF through it. I do think it's sad, and Jack looks so defeated in that scene. It hurts me, but then, the scene of Ennis turning Jack away hurts me. But I find it kind of interesting, Jack going down the line of men and picking one (one who is taller than him, I notice, not one of the shorter guys).
And I don't know that a bit of time with the Mexican man is really going to make Jack feel any better, not really. Oh, this just breaks my heart...
kathy
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Agreed. I don't dislike the scene,even though it is sad. I guess the same thing holds true for their last meeting.
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This scene is just too disturbing for my liking . . .
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This scene is just too disturbing for my liking . . .
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Yes, I would have to say this is the worse scene (except for Jack being beaten up). This scene is the start of poor little Ennis's life of internal conflict and suffering and fear.
kathy
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This definitly had a lasting affect on Ennis.It's a cruel thing to do to any child.
I also disliked the scene where Jack comes back to Aguirre's trailor to inqire about Ennis. Aguirre treated him so bad and the shock anger and humiliation was so evident in Jack's eyes.
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This definitly had a lasting affect on Ennis.It's a cruel thing to do to any child.
I also disliked the scene where Jack comes back to Aguirre's trailor to inqire about Ennis. Aguirre treated him so bad and the shock anger and humiliation was so evident in Jack's eyes.
Yes, true about Aguirre. But I thought Jack handled it well -- he was "brave," didn't let Aguirre make him feel like a worm. I was proud of him. Even after being put down like he was, he squared his shoulders and turned back and asked about Ennis del Mar. Not an easy thing to do, after what Aguirre had just said. He might as well have painted a sign on his forehead that said, yeah, Ennis Del Mar and I fell in love up on Brokeback.
We've talked elsewhere about Jack always being put down. This is so sad. He is such a beautiful person. And somewhere he did find it in himself to not let the b*stards get him down. To not lead a small life. So he usually could only stay on the bull four seconds, but damnit, he was going to keep trying.
kathy
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It's what I love about Jack. He took shit all through the movie but he always had hope of something better .Gawd! I wish the ending could've been different.
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The scene I dislike the most is the entire end of the movie!
Seriously, I am so enthralled and so into the fanfiction such as Somebody New and Force Of Nature by Jenna Sinclair, as well as Shades Of Grey by Amy, that the movie's ending doesn't even register with me anymore.
I was desperate for some healing after seeing the movie numerous times and our fan fiction has done that for me. I just couldn't go on crying every time I even thought of the movie's ending.
So this is my world now---the world where Jack lives.
Shelley
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That's why we are so addicted to them I believe. Jack lives out his sweet life with Ennis. Thank goodness for these sites too. It's like Jack got stolen from us unexpectedly too soon when we were'nt ready to let him go yet. He was so full of life that when the end of the movie came I was like WHAT??!!!!! when Ennis pulled out the postcard. I could hardly accept it.
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I understand what you mean about the ending. But seen another way: There wouldn't be any fanfic, probably no ennisjack either, if there had been a happy ending. The movie is a great movie, not just a good one, because of the ending. So I think it has to be there. Without the last scene, without "Jack, I swear" something would definitely be missing.
More and more I've come to believe that what I dislike the most are certain "missing" scenes: The "brilliant spark of their coupling", that is mentioned in the short story, many years into their relationship. I get the feeling that we don't really know how sexual their relationship remains up to the very end. I would have liked that to be in there somewhere: That their love for each other was always passionate and physical.
monicita
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I understand what you mean about the ending. But seen another way: There wouldn't be any fanfic, probably no ennisjack either, if there had been a happy ending. The movie is a great movie, not just a good one, because of the ending. So I think it has to be there. Without the last scene, without "Jack, I swear" something would definitely be missing.
More and more I've come to believe that what I dislike the most are certain "missing" scenes: The "brilliant spark of their coupling", that is mentioned in the short story, many years into their relationship. I get the feeling that we don't really know how sexual their relationship remains up to the very end. I would have liked that to be in there somewhere: That their love for each other was always passionate and physical.
monicita
Hey moni! Number one, I agree that if this had been a HEA story it would not have had the impact. At least that's what I feel. We might not still be here at these forums, might not have felt so urgently compelled to write and read fanfic, etc. But it still would have been a beautiful film if Jack didn't die...
And I certainly agree that we were deprived of seeing, in the movie, that they still had that "brilliant spark of their coupling" in the later meetings. I really wanted to see, at the very least, a beautiful passionate kiss when they were older. I wonder if there was one, that they took out... All we have is their sleeping (chastely, to all appearances) in the tent.
kathy
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i absolutley hated the scene in which Ennis had to call Lureen to try and confirm Jack's death and listen to her do just that. I became frustrated when it sort of seemed like she was'nt telling him the whole truth about it. I'm still confused even now.
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I dislike the scenes with alma and laureen
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I dislike the scene when Jack goes back to Signal and sees Aquirre, wondering if Ennis came back to work. This is a painful scene to me. The way Aquirre spoke to him, and the "stemming the rose" thing. Jack actually is subjected to prejudice, and bears the pain and cruelty the straight world causes him, unlike Ennis. Maybe this is the reason he went to Texas. In the film he never mentions it, or complains about it.
Jack's wanting the "sweet life", with Ennis was stronger than his fears. I love Jack Twist.
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I dislike the scene when Jack goes back to Signal and sees Aquirre, wondering if Ennis came back to work. This is a painful scene to me. The way Aquirre spoke to him, and the "stemming the rose" thing. Jack actually is subjected to prejudice, and bears the pain and cruelty the straight world causes him, unlike Ennis. Maybe this is the reason he went to Texas. In the film he never mentions it, or complains about it.
Since aquiring the cd, this is the scene that I have FF over the most often.
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I dislike the scenes with alma and laureen
I agree! IMO, they represent not only the "outside world" full of hatred and intolerance, but of course, also one of the major blocks to allowing Ennis and Jack to get together. They're not bad persons, but they do tie our men down, symbolically at least, and further exacerbate the problems Jack and Ennis must endure in order for them to get together.
Besides, we know that even if Jack or Ennis is getting along great with their "wafs," [Texan pronunciation]there is someone and something much greater, a way of living more pleasing to them. They know it too, and it seems that all they want is to go on their next "fishing trip."
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I FF through the scene where Lureen has just had the baby, and LD and Mrs. Newsome are there in her room, and LD treats Jack so condescendingly. Besides, I just don't like them. Or LD anyway, and the Mrs. goes along with him.
kathy
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I dont dislike any of the scenes enough or find them useless for the movie.But there are some scenes that make me feel uncomftable like the scene with the clown cause Jack is beeing humiliated. And in someway I dont like the scene with Lureen in car with Jack, somehow it seem like she is totally dominating him there on top of him, he dont seems like his heart is with in it.
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I dont dislike any of the scenes enough or find them useless for the movie.But there are some scenes that make me feel uncomftable like the scene with the clown cause Jack is beeing humiliated. And in someway I dont like the scene with Lureen in car with Jack, somehow it seem like she is totally dominating him there on top of him, he dont seems like his heart is with in it.
It's like you hit on scenes when Jack was at his most vulnerable. I had to laugh at the scene when Lureen takes off her shirt, and Jack says "you are in a hurry", what a contrast from the FNIT. The scene with the clown shows us how Jack may have tried and fail at making a connection, and you fear for his safety, but he takes that chance. I think of the way Randall approaches him, and how caught off guard Jack was, but how exciting it must have been for him.
Jack was of the world, the way Ennis was afraid of it. You got to love the guy.
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I FF through the scene where Lureen has just had the baby, and LD and Mrs. Newsome are there in her room, and LD treats Jack so condescendingly. Besides, I just don't like them. Or LD anyway, and the Mrs. goes along with him.
This scene usually ticks me off. "Rodeo can get it!" "F" him! >:(
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It's not just the words, either; it's also the fact that he doesn't even look at Jack when he says them. No wonder Jack was driven to sending the postcard to Ennis when he could get away the next summer.
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I dont dislike any of the scenes enough or find them useless for the movie.But there are some scenes that make me feel uncomftable like the scene with the clown cause Jack is beeing humiliated. And in someway I dont like the scene with Lureen in car with Jack, somehow it seem like she is totally dominating him there on top of him, he dont seems like his heart is with in it.
I agree, goblondie. Every scene really is important because each scene tells us something about the characters that we would not have known without that scene. I hate what happens in the scenes described above because I hate to see Jack humiliated, put down. But, we would not know Jack if we didn't see what he livved with. I also agree that Jack did not seem to enthused about Lureen and what they were doing in the car. He went along for the ride ( no pun intended), but we all know where his heart was.
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I hate the scene where Jack gets rejected in the divorce debaucle. He is crying in the truck as he heads to Mexico. Jack's hopes were so high that the let down was devastating to him. Especially when it did'nt have to happen that way IMO. Ennis's shame and fear overtook him causing a sad realization in Jack that Ennis was the one who put the brakes on their sweet life, not Alma. Here I feel his behavior was totally unacceptable. Why could'nt he have Jack wait till he returned later from his weekend with the girls and at least talked it out with Jack or some other comprimse? To send Jack away, knowing why Jack had driven all the way from Texas to be with him is inexcusable, IMO fears be damned!.
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This is still a very uncomfortable scene for me. Jack drove such a long distance. Perhaps Jack did jump to conclusions but Ennis could have given him something? Although I am drawn towards Ennis, this is one scene where I really hurt for Jack. :\'(
Every time I watch this scene I am reminded of a particular day where I traveled an hour to meet someone away from the meat market bar scene. It amounted to me sitting quietly while he and his buddies watched a football game. >:(
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Why could'nt he have Jack wait till he returned later from his weekend with the girls and at least talked it out with Jack or some other comprimse? To send Jack away, knowing why Jack had driven all the way from Texas to be with him is inexcusable, IMO fears be damned!.
That notion has been bothering me on and off since I first saw this film. Ennis doesn't seem able to show Jack the consideration most people would give an acquaintance or even a stranger in similar circumstances. It marks one of at least a half dozen instances where I feel like yelling or throwing things at the screen to wake Ennis up! :h)
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I can't say there are scenes I actively dislike, but when I watch it on the DVD, I usually skip over the scene where Jack shows up after the divorce and Ennis sends him away. The heartbreak in Jack's face is just too difficult to watch, and this is pretty much the point where their lives start going downhill fast.
Only other criticism is over the scenes that aren't there -- IMO it would have benefitted hugely from an erotic or even just affectionate scene in the second half of the movie. It almost started to look like they really were were just on a fishing trip, and it made the first half of the movie and the second half unbalanced in a way.
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I agree with CSC - I once travelled several hundred miles to meet someone, who greeted me and set off to where he was going anyway, me in tow. En route he met a friend - stopped and talked for some time, didn't introduce me, then went on to where he'd been going. It was the beginning of the end of a beautiful friendship. There's nothing worse than being treated as though you hardly exist, specially by someone who's supposed to love you - I can't see how Jack got over that dismissal by Ennis.
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Yeah, I still find it inexcusable. I just wish Jack had called him on it. I understand Ennis's fear, and that he had his girls there , but this behavior is indefensible. It's not like Jack had driven from just around the corner or just up the road. He drove all the way from Texas for chrissake!!! This was a blow to Jack's emotional well-being as well as the relationship as a whole . This sucked.
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Ok, Ok. I’ll set myself up for this one. Now just imagine - it’s Thanksgiving Day at the Twist’s with the Newsome’s an’ all. Doorbell rings and - surprise it’s Ennis, “Hi Jack, just came down to see if we can get together over the holiday and pretend were not queer”. What would Jack do? It’d be a tough situation, even for Jack who’s not one to hide. “Come on in Ennis have a seat here with my prick of a father in-law, who by the way thinks I’m not much of a man anyway. We can talk about all the good times we’ve had campin' and fishin’ together” (See, L.D. we don’t go up there to fish . . )
So here’s Ennis, first time he’s seen his daughters in a month or more, we’ve no idea what he’s planned for today or tomorrow, and pop – out of the blue here’s Jack. Ennis is seems genuinely glad to see him, but is bewildered as to what to do. He doesn’t send him away, doesn’t ask him to stay either. I think he’s like a deer caught in the headlights, completely at a loss of satisfactory action. Ennis’s “uncommonly quick reflexes” don’t suit him to these type situations when’s there’s no one to punch or somethin’ to catch. He sees potential exposure and harm to himself and Jack at every turn. So he just shuffles around, looking hopeless. (Too bad Jr. didn’t pipe up with a suggestion – Come on, get in Jack you can sit next to me!! :d))
Jack can’t stay at his place with the girls there, too small. He could shack up at the Siesta until the girls are gone, I don’t know why neither one thinks of this obvious solution. Jack doesn’t seem too bright here either.
Anyway, to me this scene really shows the limitations both men had on how to think about their relationship. Jack too impulsive, Ennis too recalcitrant.
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Right, jackster.
I get mad at Ennis for not thinking of some way he and Jack can get some good out of this visit, but I agree that it was all out of the blue and he didn't have time to think about what to do. he was way too preoccupied with the girls. (Also, he was too afraid of being seen with Jack. He had a real thing about somebody ( everybody?) knowing what was between them.) He can be forgiven for this slight at hospitality.
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Ok, Ok. I’ll set myself up for this one. Now just imagine - it’s Thanksgiving Day at the Twist’s with the Newsome’s an’ all. Doorbell rings and - surprise it’s Ennis, “Hi Jack, just came down to see if we can get together over the holiday and pretend were not queer”. What would Jack do? It’d be a tough situation, even for Jack who’s not one to hide. “Come on in Ennis have a seat here with my prick of a father in-law, who by the way thinks I’m not much of a man anyway. We can talk about all the good times we’ve had campin' and fishin’ together” (See, L.D. we don’t go up there to fish . . )
So here’s Ennis, first time he’s seen his daughters in a month or more, we’ve no idea what he’s planned for today or tomorrow, and pop – out of the blue here’s Jack. Ennis is seems genuinely glad to see him, but is bewildered as to what to do. He doesn’t send him away, doesn’t ask him to stay either. I think he’s like a deer caught in the headlights, completely at a loss of satisfactory action. Ennis’s “uncommonly quick reflexes” don’t suit him to these type situations when’s there’s no one to punch or somethin’ to catch. He sees potential exposure and harm to himself and Jack at every turn. So he just shuffles around, looking hopeless. (Too bad Jr. didn’t pipe up with a suggestion – Come on, get in Jack you can sit next to me!! :d))
Jack can’t stay at his place with the girls there, too small. He could shack up at the Siesta until the girls are gone, I don’t know why neither one thinks of this obvious solution. Jack doesn’t seem too bright here either.
Anyway, to me this scene really shows the limitations both men had on how to think about their relationship. Jack too impulsive, Ennis too recalcitrant.
Your scenario, is very interesting, but the same solution applys in my opinion, Had Ennis showed up like this out of the blue at Jack's house, gvin that it is an inopportune moment, yes but to ask Ennis if he would meet him afterwards at the appropriate time is not out of bounds. It's just plain rude not to. Some one has taken the time to drive this far, albeit unexpected, being courteous is at least in order. Sorry I still think it was wrong to send Jack away, there was always time to talk later.
If I were Jack I'da never left town until I saw Ennis alone. especially now that he knows where Ennis lives. Ennis owed Jack more respect than this.
When Jack was crying in the truck, it had to be partially this disrespectful, disconcerting manner in which Ennis sent him away ,as well as the realization that they were not going to have a life post-Alma together that angered him and drove him over the border into Mexico. After all, they were friends as well as lovers. I still think it sucked big time.This is something Ennis COULD fix if he chose to do so.
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There are so many things in this movie that most of us would have done differently, or would hve preferred Ennis or Jack had done differently. However, we are stuck with what Annie wanted them to do. This leaves us with the job (pleasure?) of figuring out WHY she had them do things the way she did. It's like trying to get inside of Annie's mind, which is a real fun thing to do. Sometimes I begin to think the guys could have done things differently, but then I remember that the script of life was set down for them by Annie, reinterpreted by Larry and Diana, and again by Ang. What they did cannot be changed. But we can come to new understandings about the why.
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Certainly, and by no means do I intend to demean this great author's vision or anyone else involved in this great story. but it is my passion that overtakes me. I am prone to much speculation, and embellisment I confess, but this scene as in alot of scenes stokes my passion. .... But the story is was it is. Personally, I saw the movie first, soon after walked into Barnes and Noble , got a cup of coffee, sat down and read the SS in about 30 minutes. It was a fascinating yet enlightening experience for me. An excellent read. the character of Ennis is most compelling to me and his reasoning in this scene gets me going every time. Yelling at the TV screen is not out of character for me during this. I guess Brokeback just got me good. :t)
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I know what you mean, aint. It is all so very real to us brokies. I talk back to the screen, too, because it all means so much to me. I love every second of the movie and enjoy every word of the ss. It is just the epitome of art in my heart.
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I hate that short scene where Aguirre spies on them through his binocluars - it's as if he represents the outside world breaking into their idyll but in a larger sense the hostile and prurient attitudes of homophobia. Maybe he's just an employer out to get a dollar's worth of work for a dollar, but it seems like more than that to me.
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Tho important for the story, i dont like the scene of Jack in Mexico... cant help it
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Tho important for the story, i dont like the scene of Jack in Mexico... cant help it
That scene bothers me some because I am thinking "Why Jack? It's not Ennis or someone important to you. It means nothing." :\'(
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I don't like the Mexico scene because I see Jack as so broken and destroyed at that point that he just didn't care. :\'(
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I can't say there are scenes I actively dislike, but when I watch it on the DVD, I usually skip over the scene where Jack shows up after the divorce and Ennis sends him away. The heartbreak in Jack's face is just too difficult to watch, and this is pretty much the point where their lives start going downhill fast.
Only other criticism is over the scenes that aren't there -- IMO it would have benefitted hugely from an erotic or even just affectionate scene in the second half of the movie. It almost started to look like they really were were just on a fishing trip, and it made the first half of the movie and the second half unbalanced in a way.
I so agree with this. Other than that little sleeping-in-the-tent shot, with Ennis's arm around Jack, there was never really affection shown. The sense I was left with about their later trips was their bitching at each other; and not looking happy. Except the night smoking the joint -- but that could have been just two guy-friends. I wanted some very clear sexual affection, if not an erotic scene, when they were older. Maybe there is some. We didn't even get that hug that we always see outtake stills of, when Ennis still has his pack on -- know the one I mean? If there was that entire hippie scene "on the cuting room floor," maybe there was some affection or more that was cut out.
kathy
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I agree with CSC - I once travelled several hundred miles to meet someone, who greeted me and set off to where he was going anyway, me in tow. En route he met a friend - stopped and talked for some time, didn't introduce me, then went on to where he'd been going. It was the beginning of the end of a beautiful friendship. There's nothing worse than being treated as though you hardly exist, specially by someone who's supposed to love you - I can't see how Jack got over that dismissal by Ennis.
Oh boy do we have these sad stories. Maybe this isn't exactly the place for it, but...okay, a girl I grew up close with in high school, Georgia, well 15 years later I find out she's gay and that she was in love with me in HS, though I knew nothing about it then, nor did I even know much about gay or anything. We happened to both end up in San Diego; and in 1985, we were in touch about going back to our 20-year HS reunion in St. Louis. At that time, I really carried a torch for her, though she was drinking at the time (and I had recently quit), and like I'd see her at the bars and sometimes she'd be all friendly, and more than friendly, and then other times like she hardly knew me (if there was someone better to hang out with). I remember really well the level of my excitement at going to meet her in St. Louis -- the evening event at the hotel where we all were staying...but she was loaded and seemed to find other people better company than me, and then later finding out she had a room party and didn't even call my room, etc. Then she had the nerve to come to our room (I was sharing with a woman also in SD who I grew up with in St. Louis) just to crash, and was gone when I got up and I don't think even remembered it the next day. However, later she quit drinking, also, and we have talked on and off since then...but there is really nothing there.
I am long over her now...but it sure hurt at the time...
kathy
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Ok, Ok. I’ll set myself up for this one. Now just imagine - it’s Thanksgiving Day at the Twist’s with the Newsome’s an’ all. Doorbell rings and - surprise it’s Ennis, “Hi Jack, just came down to see if we can get together over the holiday and pretend were not queer”. What would Jack do? It’d be a tough situation, even for Jack who’s not one to hide. “Come on in Ennis have a seat here with my prick of a father in-law, who by the way thinks I’m not much of a man anyway. We can talk about all the good times we’ve had campin' and fishin’ together” (See, L.D. we don’t go up there to fish . . )
So here’s Ennis, first time he’s seen his daughters in a month or more, we’ve no idea what he’s planned for today or tomorrow, and pop – out of the blue here’s Jack. Ennis is seems genuinely glad to see him, but is bewildered as to what to do. He doesn’t send him away, doesn’t ask him to stay either. I think he’s like a deer caught in the headlights, completely at a loss of satisfactory action. Ennis’s “uncommonly quick reflexes” don’t suit him to these type situations when’s there’s no one to punch or somethin’ to catch. He sees potential exposure and harm to himself and Jack at every turn. So he just shuffles around, looking hopeless. (Too bad Jr. didn’t pipe up with a suggestion – Come on, get in Jack you can sit next to me!! :d))
Jack can’t stay at his place with the girls there, too small. He could shack up at the Siesta until the girls are gone, I don’t know why neither one thinks of this obvious solution. Jack doesn’t seem too bright here either.
Anyway, to me this scene really shows the limitations both men had on how to think about their relationship. Jack too impulsive, Ennis too recalcitrant.
I love your analogy, jackster! And I totally agree with Ennis's "deer caught in the headlights" mien. He didn't know what to do, but he did not send Jack away. All this time, I never really caught on to this: He did not send Jack away. Jack was as impulsive as Ennis was recalcitrant there. (I love a fic I read where Jack comes back, says sh*t, I shouldn't'a left so quick like that.) He didn't know what to do with Jack, but he didn't know how to stop him from leaving, either.
kathy
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I love your analogy, jackster! And I totally agree with Ennis's "deer caught in the headlights" mien. He didn't know what to do, but he did not send Jack away. All this time, I never really caught on to this: He did not send Jack away. Jack was as impulsive as Ennis was recalcitrant there. (I love a fic I read where Jack comes back, says sh*t, I shouldn't'a left so quick like that.) He didn't know what to do with Jack, but he didn't know how to stop him from leaving, either.
kathy
Deer caught in the headlights is a great analogy, but the truth is neither one of these men could deal with what they had for each other, so the obvious things that should have happened didn't. "Go to a motel Jack, I catch you later." didn't occur to either of them.
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Deer caught in the headlights is a great analogy, but the truth is neither one of these men could deal with what they had for each other, so the obvious things that should have happened didn't. "Go to a motel Jack, I catch you later." didn't occur to either of them.
Just to send Jack away like that, I wondered why Ennis didn't tell Jack to wait till his girls leave, but instead stick to schedule? This caution, I wonder didn't start at the reunion, and Ennis lost total control when he saw Jack, this lost of control scared him, he knew how he was when he was near Jack, he couldn't keep his hands off him. So again he trained himself to resist that urge. Ennis not being a thinking man, swore that others could tell how he was and felt when Jack was near.
I didn't like this scene much either, because of Jack's pain, not aware of the need Ennis had for him, but only could feel the rejection when Ennis sent him away.
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So why did Jack just leave like that then? He must have sensed something that devastated him. Jack must have very badly wanted a decent explanation for this from Ennis. it's only natural, but having the girls there stopped him from inquiring further, Otherwise this could have gotten ugly. This could have been Ennis's ASS!! Instead, calm and seemingly collected, he walks away....But in reality, he's so devastated he can't help the tears and Jack takes his anger and frustration to the dark alleys of Mexico. Could this be the beginning of the end? Sometimes I see it this way.
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So why did Jack just leave like that then? He must have sensed something that devastated him. Jack must have very badly wanted a decent explanation for this from Ennis. it's only natural, but having the girls there stopped him from inquiring further, Otherwise this could have gotten ugly. This could have been Ennis's ASS!! Instead, calm and seemingly collected, he walks away....But in reality, he's so devastated he can't help the tears and Jack takes his anger and frustration to the dark alleys of Mexico. Could this be the beginning of the end? Sometimes I see it this way.
Why did Jack do anything when it came to Ennis, it's what Ennis wanted. From the FNIT Ennis takes Jack for the first time Jack submits, the I'm not queer declaration, Jacks replies, "Me neither", and even the SNIT, Ennis returns to Jack, and he takes him in his arms. Jack sends a postcard after four years, "YOU BET", Jack goes to him. Ennis resist a life with him, Jack hangs back. It was always what Ennis wanted, and what Jack gave him. So Ennis tells of his divorce, and Jack thinking the coast is clear for them goes running to only to find out he was wrong, again he does what Ennis wants he leaves.
Like Ennis Jack had his fear, and that was losing Ennis. Ennis's pain self inflicted, and because of his love for Ennis his pain also was self inflicted too scared to let go.
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i dont like the mexico scene jack is just looking for anything in his hour of despair and obviously not thinking clearly.
i dont like the 4 of july scene either i get the feeling from that scene ennis was just taking his
frustrations out on those men even though they were very rude.
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Why did Jack do anything when it came to Ennis, it's what Ennis wanted. From the FNIT Ennis takes Jack for the first time Jack submits, the I'm not queer declaration, Jacks replies, "Me neither", and even the SNIT, Ennis returns to Jack, and he takes him in his arms. Jack sends a postcard after four years, "YOU BET", Jack goes to him. Ennis resist a life with him, Jack hangs back. It was always what Ennis wanted, and what Jack gave him. So Ennis tells of his divorce, and Jack thinking the coast is clear for them goes running to only to find out he was wrong, again he does what Ennis wants he leaves.
Like Ennis Jack had his fear, and that was losing Ennis. Ennis's pain self inflicted, and because of his love for Ennis his pain also was self inflicted too scared to let go.
when ennis said there aint no reins on this one well ithink there was and ennis was holding them he was more in charge of the realationship than jack was.
ennis was almost 100 per cent in his mind that he would never make it permanent with jack so he would just get on with his life.
but jack never knew if he was going to get that call or postcard from ennis jack just lived in hope every day that some day that call or card would come telling him to go to ennis but it never did.
jacks mind was not settled so if there was any chance for him to see ennis thats why jack went runnig to him every opportunity probaly with hope in his heart. jacks words damn you ennis
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The scene I hate the most is when Jack died. He was such a vital part of the whole film that when he died, I felt robbed of his presense. I can't imagine the devastation Ennis felt. I hated the phone conversation between Lureen and Ennis and Ennis's vision of how Jack died saddened and angered me. I still won't watch it again. It's just too painful.
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Great post Aintfoolin'. I feel exactly the same way. I turn away when that scene comes on. I know he's gone but I can't bear to watch it. I've seen it I think twice maybe in all of my viewings.
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Great post Aintfoolin'. I feel exactly the same way. I turn away when that scene comes on. I know he's gone but I can't bear to watch it. I've seen it I think twice maybe in all of my viewings.
I´m not original if I say this scene is awful to see because it´s the destruction of Ennis´reason of living and,somehow,of our illusions.Less evidently,I dislike all the scenes in which,for their own fault or not,their relationship can be damaged:from Aguirre´s spying to the after divorce scene.
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What exactly do you mean by "dislike"? I think there are two very different meanings being talked about here: Some people talk about what they dislike, because it hurts them emotionally or morally (Jack's death, Jack in Mexico etc.) and others talk about scenes they think just don't work very well or are clichéd (Texans in the thanksgiving scene, Jack when he mimics the rodeo). So I would like to say, as many have, that there is no scene I actively dislike, because it isn't well made. There are just scenes that are harder to watch than others.
monicita
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Another thing: One of the most interesting reasons for disliking scenes is that one of the characters does something you don't want them to do. Some people have said that they dislike Jack's going to Mexico, because they don't want him to do that. But does that mean that you think the scene shouldn't be in the movie? If all those scenes were taken out, it would be an extremely bland and not very interesting movie. So what I would dislike the most would be for one of the scenes discussed here to be taken out of the movie. Because all of them are necessary for the development of the characters or the story. So, does anybody really think there are "unnecessary" scenes in this sense?
monicita
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What exactly do you mean by "dislike"? I think there are two very different meanings being talked about here: Some people talk about what they dislike, because it hurts them emotionally or morally (Jack's death, Jack in Mexico etc.) and others talk about scenes they think just don't work very well or are clichéd (Texans in the thanksgiving scene, Jack when he mimics the rodeo). So I would like to say, as many have, that there is no scene I actively dislike, because it isn't well made. There are just scenes that are harder to watch than others.
monicita
This is the same with me -- except that I have a little conundrum: the scenes I find so hard to watch are the ones that move me the most -- by one critierion then, they are the scenes I treasure the most...
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Monicita,I was speaking of "dislike" for something more simple:because they crash with the inner wish of they having this "sweet life" together that all of us have. :( :\'( or because they show us the impossibility of this life.By no means I´m suggesting that I find them badly done or that they are not necessaries to the movie´s development.On the contrary:be they nice or not to see,unfortunately they must be in it if we want to learn its final lesson;don´t put obstacles to your own happinness or life will teach you that the worst result is to regret for what you haven´t done,not for what you have done it wrongly...You´re right:perhaps it´s better to say "hard to see".But I don´t find any other word to describe how I feel when I see Aguirre,f.e.,because he´s the embodiment of the kind of world that denies their love.
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Another thing: One of the most interesting reasons for disliking scenes is that one of the characters does something you don't want them to do. Some people have said that they dislike Jack's going to Mexico, because they don't want him to do that. But does that mean that you think the scene shouldn't be in the movie? If all those scenes were taken out, it would be an extremely bland and not very interesting movie. So what I would dislike the most would be for one of the scenes discussed here to be taken out of the movie. Because all of them are necessary for the development of the characters or the story. So, does anybody really think there are "unnecessary" scenes in this sense?
monicita
by me not wanting jack to go to mexico it doesnt mean i dont think the scene shouldnt be in the film its part of the story a big part in fact because thats one of the things that comes out at jack and ennis,s last meeting togther so it is vital to the film.yes i wish jack had not gone to mexico, i wish ennis or jack never got married but they did iwish they never parted back in 63 .but these are my thoughts as for the film and i dont think there is any unnecessary scenes in the film.I think we would have all wanted it to end differently but i am no way saying that any part of the film should be changed.Because if it was it wouldnt be brokeback mountain.
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Monicita,I was speaking of "dislike" for something more simple:because they crash with the inner wish of they having this "sweet life" together that all of us have. :( :\'( or because they show us the impossibility of this life.By no means I´m suggesting that I find them badly done or that they are not necessaries to the movie´s development.On the contrary:be they nice or not to see,unfortunately they must be in it if we want to learn its final lesson;don´t put obstacles to your own happinness or life will teach you that the worst result is to regret for what you haven´t done,not for what you have done it wrongly...You´re right:perhaps it´s better to say "hard to see".But I don´t find any other word to describe how I feel when I see Aguirre,f.e.,because he´s the embodiment of the kind of world that denies their love.
I agree with you 100 percent about aguirre if there was less aguirre,s about jack and ennis could of had the life they wanted and so truely deserved instead of living in fear of the aguirre,s of this world
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So I guess the context of "dislike" here refers to scenes that strike one as unpleasant to watch?
It is interesting to note that some members in the past have defended Aguirre -- saying that he only did what he could to ensure that the owrk was done. That he did not show any overt signs of homophobia. Whether we believe this or not, I personally think of him as a kind of necessary contrast or counterpoint to the love of Ennis and Jack in BBM. I don't find the scenes with Aguirre in 63 outright unpleasant to watch; I find that the scenes add a sense of hightened tension to that idyllic time. The closest I would go to saying "unpleasant" was in the way he treated them in the beginning scene, or in the way he treated Jack in the summer of 64.
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Tpe, I watched the movie again yesterday (after several months of not seeing it) and the Aguirre scene, when Jack comes back in 63 is definitely one of most unpleasant ones to watch for me. And let's face it, he is not the world's nicest guy, is he? I definitely wouldn't want to work under him. Remember what he said to them, when they came down the mountain: "You ranch stiffs ain't never no good"...
How are you, by the way?
monicita
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Tpe, I watched the movie again yesterday (after several months of not seeing it) and the Aguirre scene, when Jack comes back in 63 is definitely one of most unpleasant ones to watch for me. And let's face it, he is not the world's nicest guy, is he? I definitely wouldn't want to work under him. Remember what he said to them, when they came down the mountain: "You ranch stiffs ain't never no good"...
How are you, by the way?
monicita
To say that he is not likeable is to put it mildly. Just the thought of him spying on Ennis's and Jack's love games send a chill through my spine...
OT: Oh monicita! I have had a terrible year with damages on my condo due to poor planning by the management. Plus, my Jake ring got stolen in the process. Other than this, everything is ok. Will we see you next year in Brussels? Or perhaps some other venue? :)
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For me it´s not so important the word we use to define a scene as the feeling it moves on us :\'( :d) <^( ^*).Let´s say that some scenes are definitively the contrary we want for Ennis and Jack by showing the country towns social and moral reality in 60´s, as opposition to the role of idilic shelter that plays BBM.It´s for this that comparing they playing,so in love,so happily,while Aguirre is spying them has always shocked me,because it means the crash between their world and the rest that was waiting for them far from the mountain.
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It wasnt so much the first or second scene with aguirre that was a problem .it was when jack went back
the following summer and when he said to jack aint got no work for you then ended it by saying now get out my trailer.That sums up for me what aguirre thought about jack.
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Yes,but this humiliating scene comes from the fact that Aguirre spied them before,on the contrary he would not have such a bad opinion about Jack.And for me, this was the first danger they could find against their love, as a warning that the world outside was not going to be so wonderful as their little world...
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Yes,but this humiliating scene comes from the fact that Aguirre spied them before,on the contrary he would not have such a bad opinion about Jack.And for me, this was the first danger they could find against their love, as a warning that the world outside was not going to be so wonderful as their little world...
When we saw aguirre looking at jack and ennis through his binoculars we dont know if he is watching them to see if they are working.or he is spying on them to see what else they get up to. Its not untill jack goes back the following year and the way aguirre then speaks to jack that we know for sure what he was looking at.
its at this point that it bothered me because up untill then i didnt know for sure what aguirre was all about.
And its when he said got no work for you and get out my trailer i thought you are in the group that would make life very difficult for jack and ennis.
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Great post Aintfoolin'. I feel exactly the same way. I turn away when that scene comes on. I know he's gone but I can't bear to watch it. I've seen it I think twice maybe in all of my viewings.
I have never let my eyes linger on that scene, either. Those who do so are brave, but I am not. I do not want to see it. The one part of the movie I don't know by heart.
kathy
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The surest thing is that Aguirre was only watching over his interests,not necessarily because he distrusted of the boys. :f) What is sure for me,is that after this coincidence in seeing their love games on the part of someone like Aguirre,this crash between the two worlds would be inevitable.And it was going to be maybe the first link on the chain of problems and dangers around their relationship-as we see few time after when he invents an excuse in order to make them leave BBM before-.The trailer scene is only the result of this crash,I don´t know if I´m explainig well...
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MPJ
Yes you did explain that well.
I have wondered a couple of times if thats why aguirre cut their time on the mountain short.
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Well, there was after all a "storm comin' in from the Pacific" and as much as Aguirre disliked Ennis and Jack and thought they were being "unproductive" (so to speak ;) I don't think he would have dismissed them from BBM in the summer of '63 if he didn't have the "excuse" of the storm coming in.
I think potential candidates for sheepherding jobs at the time were hard to come by, especially with lots of young men posted to Vietnam, plus Wyoming was (is?) one of the less densely populated states in the US. I don't think Aguirre had much choice but to hire Ennis and Jack that summer even if he didn't think much of Jack from the year before.
It is implied that Aguirre had more famliarity with Jack than with Ennis, having worked with him the previous summer too, and with Jack's mother asking him to convey the message that uncle Harold was taken ill.
If it was Ennis instead of Jack coming the following summer ('64) asking for a job, I'm not too sure Aguirre would have declined to hire him as he did with Jack, though. Just a gut feeling, though :-\\
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I think you make a valid point. Jack does mention Aguirre's unhappiness during the previous Summer when there were sheep killed during the lightening storm. For all we know Aguirre just didn't like having Jack work for him at all.
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Well, there was after all a "storm comin' in from the Pacific" and as much as Aguirre disliked Ennis and Jack and thought they were being "unproductive" (so to speak ;) I don't think he would have dismissed them from BBM in the summer of '63 if he didn't have the "excuse" of the storm coming in.
I think potential candidates for sheepherding jobs at the time were hard to come by, especially with lots of young men posted to Vietnam, plus Wyoming was (is?) one of the less densely populated states in the US. I don't think Aguirre had much choice but to hire Ennis and Jack that summer even if he didn't think much of Jack from the year before.
It is implied that Aguirre had more famliarity with Jack than with Ennis, having worked with him the previous summer too, and with Jack's mother asking him to convey the message that uncle Harold was taken ill.
If it was Ennis instead of Jack coming the following summer ('64) asking for a job, I'm not too sure Aguirre would have declined to hire him as he did with Jack, though. Just a gut feeling, though :-\\
Good points, FT. Not like guys were lined up around the block for those jobs. And it's interesting to think, what if Ennis had come back in '64? Instead of, or with Jack. What would Aguirre have done, I wonder.
kathy
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Good points, FT. Not like guys were lined up around the block for those jobs. And it's interesting to think, what if Ennis had come back in '64? Instead of, or with Jack. What would Aguirre have done, I wonder.
kathy
I suspect that he would have said no.
In any case, that scene between Jack and Aguirre in 64 was most unpleasant.
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I suspect that he would have said no.
In any case, that scene between Jack and Aguirre in 64 was most unpleasant.
Really, for me it´s the consequence of that crash I spoke about in former posts,between the idilic world in BBM and the real world they found when they let the mountain,in the figure of Aguirre.
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Really, for me it´s the consequence of that crash I spoke about in former posts,between the idilic world in BBM and the real world they found when they let the mountain,in the figure of Aguirre.
There is that clash, no? Aguirre does represent the intrusion of an ugly "reality" into the idyll of BBM, at least this is my opinion. Aguirre is certainly a remionder to them that the "world" is a very different place.
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AMEN TO THIS AGAIN,TPE¡¡¡ (:)
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Thanks MPJ. :)
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God knows this is true about the JR Ewing factor! A friend of mine turned to me and asked why all 'you' Texans are like that! I asked her if it was true that all people from Georgia (her home) were like the folks from Deliverance. It was all in good fun.
But at least we didn't see Big Daddy Newsome cruising in his cadillac with steer horns on the front.
This is easy...I'll move conversation away from the daughters as I agree with earlier comments made about connecting Ennis to family (even despite the tragic relationship with Jack). His daughters provide hope that Ennis will NOT be lonely even after Jack.
Clearly the worst scene/s were those of Jack Twist in Texas. All of the characters, including Lureen's father were so sterotypically Texan...what with bolo ties, large-sized belt buckles, pot belly, big hair, on and on. I live in Texas and was somewhat offended that Ang Lee did not take more time and attention to be less JR Ewing about these scenes. While the story follows with Jack marrying into Texas wealth, I think the purple crush velvet dining room chairs and diamond pinky rings could have been more subtle. Thankfully this was not soooooo distracting as to take away from the depth and spirit of the film. I can only thank the editing room for that.
stationbbm
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I dislike the most the "Jimbo"'s scene :-\\
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It´d be easy to say that the scene I dislike the most is the confrontation scene,because in some moments it´s almost unbearable to see and hear them telling each other all the things they had in their inner self during so many years,and it´s true...But at the same time,it´ s a kid of relief they´re able to get out from them all this,for them ,and for us ,because we can feel something will be different from this moment onward,for good or for bad.
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I dislike the most the "Jimbo"'s scene :-\\
This comes closest to being unpleasant for me also...
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It´d be easy to say that the scene I dislike the most is the confrontation scene,because in some moments it´s almost unbearable to see and hear them telling each other all the things they had in their inner self during so many years,and it´s true...But at the same time,it´ s a kid of relief they´re able to get out from them all this,for them ,and for us ,because we can feel something will be different from this moment onward,for good or for bad.
For some reason, I don't dislike the Confrontation scene at all, even though it really hurts me watching it. I think it's because it is really beautiful to the core. And close to the heart of it all is the Dozy Embrace.
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For some reason, I don't dislike the Confrontation scene at all, even though it really hurts me watching it. I think it's because it is really beautiful to the core. And close to the heart of it all is the Dozy Embrace.
Well,these two scenes show the different sides of their relationship,no?;full of passion and energy,but also of tenderness,joy and hope in its beguinnig,as young as they themselves were,the DE;hopeless,angry,sad,almost dying as we´d seen it before,growing old as themselves,the CS.
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Well,these two scenes show the different sides of their relationship,no?;full of passion and energy,but also of tenderness,joy and hope in its beguinnig,as young as they themselves were,the DE;hopeless,angry,sad,almost dying as we´d seen it before,growing old as themselves,the CS.
It's the great contrasts between the 2 scenes, I think, that seem to tear our hearts in two... In this sense, it can be a most difficult scene to go through.
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It´d be easy to say that the scene I dislike the most is the confrontation scene,because in some moments it´s almost unbearable to see and hear them telling each other all the things they had in their inner self during so many years,and it´s true...But at the same time,it´ s a kid of relief they´re able to get out from them all this,for them ,and for us ,because we can feel something will be different from this moment onward,for good or for bad.
I don't know if I dislike this scene the most, but I am the most uncomfortable with this scene. I abhor any kind of conflict. This doesn't mean I don't stand up for what I think and believe, but it does mean that I prefer gentle conflict couched in civilized language. The conflict in this scene is just so raw. Jack really overreacts when Ennis tells him he can't make it in August as planned, thus setting the tone for a real knock-down argument. Ennis does his best to keep his cool so long as he can, but eventually, it all comes bubbling out of him -- all the frustration, loneliness, feelings of being trapped by circumstances, etc. I find this all very disconcerting. I understand where the feelings are coming from, but they are so visceral that they make me feel sick. I hate to see Ennis emptying himself of his emotions, laying himself bare before Jack, actually BEGGING Jack to understand and say it's OK -- they'll just hook up later on.
This is the scene where Ennis's soul is exposed; he is at his lowest point ever, and Jack won't budge.
That's why I find this scene so hard to stomach.
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This is the scene where Ennis's soul is exposed; he is at his lowest point ever, and Jack won't budge.
That's why I find this scene so hard to stomach.
As in a fresh wound...
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I don't know if I dislike this scene the most, but I am the most uncomfortable with this scene. I abhor any kind of conflict. This doesn't mean I don't stand up for what I think and believe, but it does mean that I prefer gentle conflict couched in civilized language. The conflict in this scene is just so raw. Jack really overreacts when Ennis tells him he can't make it in August as planned, thus setting the tone for a real knock-down argument. Ennis does his best to keep his cool so long as he can, but eventually, it all comes bubbling out of him -- all the frustration, loneliness, feelings of being trapped by circumstances, etc. I find this all very disconcerting. I understand where the feelings are coming from, but they are so visceral that they make me feel sick. I hate to see Ennis emptying himself of his emotions, laying himself bare before Jack, actually BEGGING Jack to understand and say it's OK -- they'll just hook up later on.
This is the scene where Ennis's soul is exposed; he is at his lowest point ever, and Jack won't budge.
That's why I find this scene so hard to stomach.
I feel the same about this scene. Thanks for puttin my own thoughts into your words. It was very uncomfortble to watch the total break down, though Jack needed to say those words and Ennis needed to hear them.
I also felt this way in the Thanksgiving scenes. especially at Jack's house. LD was being a total prick imo. Jack was forced to set him straight, but I doubt after this, aside from Bobby no one ate much. Kinda of a damper don't you think?
Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!!!!!
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Yes, I hope everyone has a much happier Thanksgiving than the two shown in BBM. Both are so necessary to the film, but both are so emotional, like eating dinner on a powderkeg, just waiting for the fuse to ignite and blow them all to kingdom come. All that angst they were all keeping inside! Wow! That would be uncomfortable. I think the juxtaposition of those two scenes shows the viewer just how much Jack and Ennis were holding inside and building up. Then, on a day when everyone should be giving thanks for all they had, they both explode. After all, the one thing each man wanted was denied him, so he was full of unrest, ready for bear, as the saying goes. They didn't have the one thing they would have been truly thankful for -- each other. I can't say I liked the scenes, but they were powerful and insightful.
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Yes thank you lamusica, If this is any indication of what Jack had to put up with in Chidress, him and LD locked into some kind of pwer stuggle for his family, I can see why he sought Ennis out after 4 years of this. The degradation Jack must have suffered, having to fight for your role as head of his own family against an arrogant bore like LD. I don't like to insite violence in any form but maybe the the wrong "Turkey" got carved that year. Nah Jack would'nt do that, or would he? A man can be pushed to far and I have my suspicions about Jack :*(....Could've gotten ugly . He hated Jack's guts and Jack hated his.
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Another scene I rather dislike is when the two are near the river and Ennis confess he´s afraid of being discovered in their relationship;is one of the few moments that are shown in the movie where Jack could take avantadge of the situation to do what he must have done much before and more often along their relationship.To look for an affirmative answer from Ennis instead of letting time pass by living his love and their life without more future perspective.He does at the end and not only doesn´t get this affirmative answer,nor even a strong negative, but an almost cinical one.Too much to bear for somebody who has waited so much to get his dreams,too big glass of cold,ice water under him...I´ve always thought that from this very moment onward Jack realises they will arrive nowhere,and the break-up of some illiusions is always something unbearable to see...
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Another scene I rather dislike is when the two are near the river and Ennis confess he´s afraid of being discovered in their relationship;is one of the few moments that are shown in the movie where Jack could take avantadge of the situation to do what he must have done much before and more often along their relationship.To look for an affirmative answer from Ennis instead of letting time pass by living his love and their life without more future perspective.He does at the end and not only doesn´t get this affirmative answer,nor even a strong negative, but an almost cinical one.Too much to bear for somebody who has waited so much to get his dreams,too big glass of cold,ice water under him...I´ve always thought that from this very moment onward Jack realises they will arrive nowhere,and the break-up of some illiusions is always something unbearable to see...
I really felt for Jack in that scene -- he was sort of being mocked, I guess. Well, Ennis probably did have a point, but he could have been easier on Jakc, I guess.
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Yes, I hope everyone has a much happier Thanksgiving than the two shown in BBM. Both are so necessary to the film, but both are so emotional, like eating dinner on a powderkeg, just waiting for the fuse to ignite and blow them all to kingdom come. All that angst they were all keeping inside! Wow! That would be uncomfortable. I think the juxtaposition of those two scenes shows the viewer just how much Jack and Ennis were holding inside and building up. Then, on a day when everyone should be giving thanks for all they had, they both explode. After all, the one thing each man wanted was denied him, so he was full of unrest, ready for bear, as the saying goes. They didn't have the one thing they would have been truly thankful for -- each other. I can't say I liked the scenes, but they were powerful and insightful.
I guess I did not realize until now this parallel of the thanksgiving scenes! Both scenes were intense and disconcerting but I guess I was too caught up in the drama and action to notice the similarities, having seen the movie only twice now (last time a month ago). You are correct, in that both of them would probably have loved to be in each others arms that day, instead of the circumstances they found themselves in. It is also interesting, although not surprising, that both of their thanksgivings mirrored the more violent side of human nature. Thanks for pointing this out.
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Yes, I hope everyone has a much happier Thanksgiving than the two shown in BBM. Both are so necessary to the film, but both are so emotional, like eating dinner on a powderkeg, just waiting for the fuse to ignite and blow them all to kingdom come. All that angst they were all keeping inside! Wow! That would be uncomfortable. I think the juxtaposition of those two scenes shows the viewer just how much Jack and Ennis were holding inside and building up. Then, on a day when everyone should be giving thanks for all they had, they both explode. After all, the one thing each man wanted was denied him, so he was full of unrest, ready for bear, as the saying goes. They didn't have the one thing they would have been truly thankful for -- each other. I can't say I liked the scenes, but they were powerful and insightful.
Yes, I also believe that both scenes are a way of saying that no one of both were really satisfied with the kind of family life they had.If they explode is for this reason-more clearly in Jack´s case-,but also because they wanted,they really wished,spent that day with another persons by their side;we all know that in fête days we miss much more the ones who aren´t with us;it´s the example why Christmas time can be so depressing in some occassions...-.Jack,moreover,must demonstrate that he was the man of the house before an unbearable father-in-law who maybe was already suspecting about him,besides of hating his guts from the very moment he met him.Ennis case wa different,since his explosion is a mixing of fear that Alma could speak too much before too many persons,protection of Jack and their relationship because he was being attacked, a kind of reafirmation of himself and his virility,of the role that,as a man,must play before his former wife and his daughters, and a simple show of violence that came from his own frustration and impotence to deal properly with the situation.Not easy for no one of them...Nor both of them are pleasant scenes too;violent scenes never are,but more when the essence of the question is so bitter.
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I guess I did not realize until now this parallel of the thanksgiving scenes! Both scenes were intense and disconcerting but I guess I was too caught up in the drama and action to notice the similarities, having seen the movie only twice now (last time a month ago). You are correct, in that both of them would probably have loved to be in each others arms that day, instead of the circumstances they found themselves in. It is also interesting, although not surprising, that both of their thanksgivings mirrored the more violent side of human nature. Thanks for pointing this out.
How true! Although Ennis I'm sure was grateful to spend the time with his girls, both characters no doubt wished they were with each other. Instead, both characters had holiday drama to contend with. Jack exploded and Ennis was on the receiving end of one.
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For me, the Thanksgiving was realization of the men true self. Jack his power, and Ennis his weakness. We're thinking all during film before this point that Ennis was the stronger in this relationship, but it wasn't the case. The final confrontation revealed this. Jack's love for Ennis made him strong, Ennis was always hanging on by a thread and needed Jack, and his love to keep from falling apart.
Remember how much Ennis fooled himself when he made that stupid remark to Alma about once burned when she told him he should marry again. She let him have it. Ennis up until that time never took responsibility for the relationship, Alma made him.
LD made Jack stand up for himself in his own home. Jack always deferred to others, but not this time, he was tired of his manhood being challenge, he himself being challenge.
These two incidents set the stage for that last day. hiddens truths and revelations.
My take away.
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For me, the Thanksgiving was realization of the men true self. Jack his power, and Ennis his weakness. We're thinking all during film before this point that Ennis was the stronger in this relationship, but it wasn't the case. The final confrontation revealed this. Jack's love for Ennis made him strong, Ennis was always hanging on by a thread and needed Jack, and his love to keep from falling apart.
Remember how much Ennis fooled himself when he made that stupid remark to Alma about once burned when she told him he should marry again. She let him have it. Ennis up until that time never took responsibility for the relationship, Alma made him.
LD made Jack stand up for himself in his own home. Jack always deferred to others, but not this time, he was tired of his manhood being challenge, he himself being challenge.
These two incidents set the stage for that last day. hiddens truths and revelations.
My take away.
Very well said MG!! I agree with everything!!! Jack became stronger because of all his fights to make his dream come true, and finally he was the most hard of both them.
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Really interesting discussion here.
For me, the two most unpleasant scenes to watch are Jack walking down the alley in Mexico, and him sitting on the bench outside with Randall. They are even more unpleasant than the Jimbo scene, which comes close to making it a three-way tie.
These are my least favorite scenes. Truth is, I hate these scenes, because they are when Jack drifts away from Ennis, when his love wavers. Jack was tested beyond his endurance by his love for Ennis and Ennis' refusal to live the sweet life that he loves. There are lies we have to tell...when our lives are forced into blind alleys, dead ends.
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But doesn't it show the humaness, (if there is such a word), of Jack. It's painful to watch, but why? because we can relate to that kind of hopelessness in our life, the weakness of just being human beings.
Jack is walking in cloud of doubt, anger, and love for someone, no matter how close seems so far away. That's why I'm drawn to this character, because like Ennis, he's part of us too.
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But doesn't it show the humaness, (if there is such a word), of Jack. It's painful to watch, but why? because we can relate to that kind of hopelessness in our life, the weakness of just being human beings.
Jack is walking in cloud of doubt, anger, and love for someone, no matter how close seems so far away. That's why I'm drawn to this character, because like Ennis, he's part of us too.
Yes it does. As much as it shows Ennis's "humaness" when he breaks down in an alley.
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IMO, the sadest one is where Ennis visits Jack' parents (sniffing the shirt), I dislike it because it gives you the safety that Jack will definitely never come back :\'(
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IMO, the sadest one is where Ennis visits Jack' parents (sniffing the shirt), I dislike it because it gives you the safety that Jack will definitely never come back :\'(
I do think this is one of the saddest of scenes, but for some reason, I do love it quite a lot -- especially the scene in Jack's room. It is the closest Ennis ever got to "publicly" mourn the loss of Jack. At least Jack's mother understood...
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I do think this is one of the saddest of scenes, but for some reason, I do love it quite a lot -- especially the scene in Jack's room. It is the closest Ennis ever got to "publicly" mourn the loss of Jack. At least Jack's mother understood...
One more time I must agree with you,Thomas,in that-although is a rather touching and difficult to see scene -we love it.Because there's a kind of complicity between the two persons who loved and were loved by Jack the most;and in Mrs. Twists case,who knew the man she was before her was the other person who Jack loved.And because,somehow,it's a kind of liberation for Ennis,who opened himself to his own feelings more than never before,even if it's too late...
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Jack driving to Mexico always tears me apart. He has just been rebuffed by the man he loves, with little explanation, and is now on his way to look for someone to take Ennis's place ( at least physically). But his heart was breaking. I think Ennis has a lot to be sorry for causing this grief in Jack. This follows one scene in which I wanted to put a boot up Ennis's behind to kick-start his brain. He had the best thing standing in front of him, yet turned him away. How easily he could have made plans with Jack to meet up later that evening in a motel somewhere, or, if he had the girls for the weekend, Jack could have caught him on the way back from visiting his folks, but he blew it. So, Jack's tears really show us how hurt he was. It's a necessary scene, but still painful to watch.
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One more time I must agree with you,Thomas,in that-although is a rather touching and difficult to see scene -we love it.Because there's a kind of complicity between the two persons who loved and were loved by Jack the most;and in Mrs. Twists case,who knew the man she was before her was the other person who Jack loved.And because,somehow,it's a kind of liberation for Ennis,who opened himself to his own feelings more than never before,even if it's too late...
This is true. It is Ennis's Road to Emmaus. It wasn't liberation in the extroverted sense, but more a final realization of what he was within him.
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Jack driving to Mexico always tears me apart. He has just been rebuffed by the man he loves, with little explanation, and is now on his way to look for someone to take Ennis's place ( at least physically). But his heart was breaking. I think Ennis has a lot to be sorry for causing this grief in Jack. This follows one scene in which I wanted to put a boot up Ennis's behind to kick-start his brain. He had the best thing standing in front of him, yet turned him away. How easily he could have made plans with Jack to meet up later that evening in a motel somewhere, or, if he had the girls for the weekend, Jack could have caught him on the way back from visiting his folks, but he blew it. So, Jack's tears really show us how hurt he was. It's a necessary scene, but still painful to watch.
I also find this scene difficult, but as in Ennis's visit to LF, I also have a starnge affection for the crying scene. It shows Jack vulnerable, even if he pretended to think nothing of it when he was face to face with Ennis.
Ennis's situation at that moment was difficult and to some degree understandable. But I wished that he would have asked Jack to stay even for a short while...
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I think this is the one of the times Jack really takes a chance. When he heard about the divorce, he took the chance of just turning up in front of Ennis and leaving the ball in his court. Ennis could play the ball as he wished. He could have taken this chance to really solidify his relationship with Jack, make it something permanent. OR, he could do what he did and turn Jack away. Jack let it all hang out, and Ennis fumbled. I'm not criticizing Ennis. He did what he felt he had to do. He had the girls for the weekend, didn't get them too often, so needed to do the responsible thing and take care of them. Consequently, good-bye, Jack. But I find this so sad, even understanding Ennis's motivation. Jack took a chance and was slapped down. This hurt him -- thus the tears. I just find those tears hard to watch because they seem to be so definitive. They indicate that Ennis did NOT put Jack first in his life, and that is so sad since Jack DID put Ennis first, from everything I can see.
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. . . Ennis could play the ball as he wished. He could have taken this chance to really solidify his relationship with Jack, make it something permanent. OR, he could do what he did and turn Jack away . . .
Don't you think it's actually much more complicated than this? The subtle complexity of this one situation is so emblematic of their relationship, especially the lack of communication by both E&J. Ennis, torn between his own blood, who he hasn't seen in two months (because of his job - sound familiar?), and time with Jack; Jack gets a postcard and bang, he's off like a shot for WY, can't call Ennis, he doesn't even know where he lives, but expects everything to work out fine on the spot when he shows without warning. Even though he's not expected till the next month. This is a brilliant screenplay construction to me, considering the only thing in the SS was one sentence . . ."He called Jack's number in Childress, something he had done only once before, when Alma divorced him, and Jack had misunderstood the reason for the call, had driven twelve hundred miles north for nothing."
Jack's the chance taker, FNIT there's a real chance, and Ennis is the 'by the book' guy. The plan for weekend (w/the girls) had been laid out and he was just going by the script. I think they both fumbled IMHO. Jack's known Ennis for what, 12 years by this time, and he thinks he can just show up and Ennis will drop everything for some high altitude fun? Huh? Ennis sees how happy Jack is to see him (toot, toot, toot, sounds like horns honking after a wedding), and yet he can't think of nuthin' to resolve the situation and lets Jack drive off crushed. I'm not sure Ennis isn't crushed too, having to make that kind of decision, I think his face shows inner torment.
To me McMurtry and Ossana cleverly extended the boys confused emotions from the SS 1967 motel scene - "I doubt there's nothin now we can do," said Ennis. "What I'm sayin', Jack, I built a life up in them years. Love my little girls. . . . . We can't. I'm stuck with what I got, caught in my own loop. Can't get out of it. - they've shown that E&J continued that same confused emotional state from '67 to '75. All the way to end really. JMHO
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Don't you think it's actually much more complicated than this? The subtle complexity of this one situation is so emblematic of their relationship, especially the lack of communication by both E&J. Ennis, torn between his own blood, who he hasn't seen in two months (because of his job - sound familiar?), and time with Jack; Jack gets a postcard and bang, he's off like a shot for WY, can't call Ennis, he doesn't even know where he lives, but expects everything to work out fine on the spot when he shows without warning. Even though he's not expected till the next month. This is a brilliant screenplay construction to me, considering the only thing in the SS was one sentence . . ."He called Jack's number in Childress, something he had done only once before, when Alma divorced him, and Jack had misunderstood the reason for the call, had driven twelve hundred miles north for nothing."
Jack's the chance taker, FNIT there's a real chance, and Ennis is the 'by the book' guy. The plan for weekend (w/the girls) had been laid out and he was just going by the script. I think they both fumbled IMHO. Jack's known Ennis for what, 12 years by this time, and he thinks he can just show up and Ennis will drop everything for some high altitude fun? Huh? Ennis sees how happy Jack is to see him (toot, toot, toot, sounds like horns honking after a wedding), and yet he can't think of nuthin' to resolve the situation and lets Jack drive off crushed. I'm not sure Ennis isn't crushed too, having to make that kind of decision, I think his face shows inner torment.
To me McMurtry and Ossana cleverly extended the boys confused emotions from the SS 1967 motel scene - "I doubt there's nothin now we can do," said Ennis. "What I'm sayin', Jack, I built a life up in them years. Love my little girls. . . . . We can't. I'm stuck with what I got, caught in my own loop. Can't get out of it. - they've shown that E&J continued that same confused emotional state from '67 to '75. All the way to end really. JMHO
I think what you are saying, jackster, is exactly right. I am not chastising Ennis for his actions in any way. He is doing what he feels he has to do. Familial obligations come first to him. But, even as he is rejecting Jack, standing there in front of that old out-building, Ennis is watching the road -- making sure they are not seen. Ennis is happy to have his girls, but he is also happy and afraid to see Jack. He chooses his girls. Nothing to be wronged for. However, I do think this shows a fundamental difference between Jack and Ennis. Let's say it was Jack who got divorced and Ennis went to see him. Jack might have had his son for the weekend. Would he have turned Ennis away? IMO, he would have found some way to be with Ennis. That's all I meant to say. I think Ennis is #1 with Jack and Jack is not necessarily #1 with Ennis. JMHO
(But, then, anyone's tears tend to do me in!) :\'(
Your observation about MCMurtry and Osana is right on, too, I believe. Most people who saw this film did not read the short story, so they had to find some way to convey on film the deepest emotions of these two men. Thus, the beautiful motel scene -- full of enlightenment for the viewer. (That's probably my favorite scene of all.) We really need to know this is Ennis's motivation. He loves his family, but, at the same times, realizes they bind him to where he is and keep him from reaching out to Jack. (Keep him is his loop.)
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. . . Let's say it was Jack who got divorced and Ennis went to see him. Jack might have had his son for the weekend. Would he have turned Ennis away? IMO, he would have found some way to be with Ennis. That's all I meant to say. I think Ennis is #1 with Jack and Jack is not necessarily #1 with Ennis. . . .
Yeah, interesting reversal. I made a similar proposal once, what if Ennis showed up unannounced at the Twist house on Thanksgiving, then what? What would Jack do, what about LD and Lureen? Would'a made for some real fireworks, huh? (be an interesting scene to write) You're right of course, Ennis was #1 with Ennis, as he said early on . . . Jack, I don't want a be like them guys you see around sometimes. And I don't want a be dead." Self-preservation. He equated being with Jack as a death sentence per Earl, and I guess if Jack 'n Randall can be considered a pair, then he was proven right per Jack 'n Randall too. Maybe LOVE was #1 with Jack, with Ennis first and foremost, but the rodeo clown, Lureen, Mexican street boys, and Randall - wherever he could find it, or thought he could find it. Maybe's what got him started FNIT too, he needed someone to love. Ennis didn't (didn't think he did anyway, 'till later).
ps - nice to discussing this with you again, kind of cathartic after past two weeks.
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i REALLY like what you said here, Jackster, about it being LOVE that was # 1 with Jack, and not necessarily Ennis. That's a new way for me to think of all this and I like it. Maybe that's true of folks in general -- that some put love ( any kind) as their primary need and other just don't. I have to think about this one. Thanks for the idea. This is interesting!!!! :) :) :)
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Kinda' OT here lamusica, but seems this is what the Dozy Embrace is tryin' to exemplify, Jack's hunger for LOVE . . . "What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."
He just so desperately wanted to be LOVED. Though he talks about about a few high-altitude f**ks, what he really means is he needs the LOVE, not the sex. The sweet life was to live in union with this LOVE. Sorry for bein' OT.
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Kinda' OT here lamusica, but seems this is what the Dozy Embrace is tryin' to exemplify, Jack's hunger for LOVE . . . "What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."
He just so desperately wanted to be LOVED. Though he talks about about a few high-altitude f**ks, what he really means is he needs the LOVE, not the sex. The sweet life was to live in union with this LOVE. Sorry for bein' OT.
i REALLY like what you said here, Jackster, about it being LOVE that was # 1 with Jack, and not necessarily Ennis. That's a new way for me to think of all this and I like it. Maybe that's true of folks in general -- that some put love ( any kind) as their primary need and other just don't. I have to think about this one. Thanks for the idea. This is interesting!!!! :) :) :)
LM, Jackster, thank you so much for your beautiful posts. I love them and also I've always thought that Jack wanted only to love and to be loved. I don't know why but reading SS and watching several times the film that is what I always got from Jack. It's so interesting that when you read a poem or a fic about Jack you can find there exactly the same!!! So if so many brokies see Jack in this way, then I think that must be true. Jack looking for love, that's all.
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Really deep and nice posts yours,Lamusica and Jackster. :clap: Yes,Jack was someone always in search for love and being-and feeling-loved and I'd add, appraised for someone.It was something he hardly had in all his life,from his own father to his own wife and in-law family.
But when he found this person,I think he didn't know how to hold on him in what constitutes one of the other scenes I dislike a lot.I'm referring to their farewell after having left BBM;it's not a violent,not a very disgusting scene in its shape,but it's in its essence.It has a lot of temperate and hidden emotions,and,for me,it results really deplorable to see both of them not daring to say anything about their future.Jack's glance telling Ennis without words:"Please,don't go" and Ennis trying not to look at him in the eyes-surely being afraid of not resisting it...-and remarking he's going to marry Alma soon-as a last way to hurt Jack,maybe for what "he had done" with him up in the mountain?-is for me a rather unpleasant scene.Í don't find it sad indeed,but annoying;one feels like entering on the movie if it could be possible,and beat both of them for their stupidity and this lack of communication that's so showy for me and that lasted during all their relationship.
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Kinda' OT here lamusica, but seems this is what the Dozy Embrace is tryin' to exemplify, Jack's hunger for LOVE . . . "What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."
He just so desperately wanted to be LOVED. Though he talks about about a few high-altitude f**ks, what he really means is he needs the LOVE, not the sex. The sweet life was to live in union with this LOVE. Sorry for bein' OT.
I don't t hink you're OT at all. You are discussing what Jack needed and what he wasn't getting, which caused the tears he shed in what I consider to be one of the hardest scenes to watch. Right on topic, to me <^(
And Baby Tammy, you are so right. We all want to give Jack what he was looking for -- love.
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I think what you are saying, jackster, is exactly right. I am not chastising Ennis for his actions in any way. He is doing what he feels he has to do. Familial obligations come first to him. But, even as he is rejecting Jack, standing there in front of that old out-building, Ennis is watching the road -- making sure they are not seen. Ennis is happy to have his girls, but he is also happy and afraid to see Jack. He chooses his girls. Nothing to be wronged for. However, I do think this shows a fundamental difference between Jack and Ennis. Let's say it was Jack who got divorced and Ennis went to see him. Jack might have had his son for the weekend. Would he have turned Ennis away? IMO, he would have found some way to be with Ennis. That's all I meant to say. I think Ennis is #1 with Jack and Jack is not necessarily #1 with Ennis. JMHO
(But, then, anyone's tears tend to do me in!) :\'(
Your observation about MCMurtry and Osana is right on, too, I believe. Most people who saw this film did not read the short story, so they had to find some way to convey on film the deepest emotions of these two men. Thus, the beautiful motel scene -- full of enlightenment for the viewer. (That's probably my favorite scene of all.) We really need to know this is Ennis's motivation. He loves his family, but, at the same times, realizes they bind him to where he is and keep him from reaching out to Jack. (Keep him is his loop.)
Yeah, interesting reversal. I made a similar proposal once, what if Ennis showed up unannounced at the Twist house on Thanksgiving, then what? What would Jack do, what about LD and Lureen? Would'a made for some real fireworks, huh? (be an interesting scene to write) You're right of course, Ennis was #1 with Ennis, as he said early on . . . Jack, I don't want a be like them guys you see around sometimes. And I don't want a be dead." Self-preservation. He equated being with Jack as a death sentence per Earl, and I guess if Jack 'n Randall can be considered a pair, then he was proven right per Jack 'n Randall too. Maybe LOVE was #1 with Jack, with Ennis first and foremost, but the rodeo clown, Lureen, Mexican street boys, and Randall - wherever he could find it, or thought he could find it. Maybe's what got him started FNIT too, he needed someone to love. Ennis didn't (didn't think he did anyway, 'till later).
ps - nice to discussing this with you again, kind of cathartic after past two weeks.
Very interesting exchange, lamusica and jackster.
I do admit that I sometimes feel ill at ease at some imbalances in the relationship. But even in those scenes where this becomes more apparent, I find myself not having the heart to dislike any of them. BBM is so full of scenes that are so disturbing underneath, and yet, it is by this that the movie and the story continue to pull us in and fascinate us. I hope this does not sound too morbid. But the imbalances and sense of "unfairness" sometimes make us connect with the characters on a deeper level. I hope you know what I mean...
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Very interesting exchange, lamusica and jackster.
I do admit that I sometimes feel ill at ease at some imbalances in the relationship. But even in those scenes where this becomes more apparent, I find myself not having the heart to dislike any of them. BBM is so full of scenes that are so disturbing underneath, and yet, it is by this that the movie and the story continue to pull us in and fascinate us. I hope this does not sound too morbid. But the imbalances and sense of "unfairness" sometimes make us connect with the characters on a deeper level. I hope you know what I mean...
If I am hearing you right, I certainly agree with you. There are times when I am convinced Ennis is at fault that the relationship didn't go farther than it did, but then, I see an event that convinces me that it is Jack who withheld himself, or is some way made a committment from Ennis impossible. As you said, it is the constant fluctuating, or imbalances, that makes us love these characters. We may get angry about something they do, but we realize they are human -- they exhibit failings like all human beings do -- and we forgive them and love them anyway. In this scene, Ennis angers me, but I DO understand where he was coming from with his daughters watching every move they made and listening to every word. I know why he rebuffed Jack, I just don't like to see it.
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Very interesting exchange, lamusica and jackster.
. . . But the imbalances and sense of "unfairness" sometimes make us connect with the characters on a deeper level. I hope you know what I mean...
I get your drift here too Thomas. And wholeheartedly agree with your very touching assessment. Like you say, much of what is so gripping about this story is how it is cut from the fabric of life itself. Full of its mistakes, and regrets, but also of its wonders and sweetness. Sorry I gotta stop . . .
:\'(
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Thanks lamusica and jackster. I like what you said. I don't think there is really any scene in BBM that is free of tension or some form of imbalance, and this keeps all of us on edge. And as lamusica had implied, by shifting our inner focus from one to the other, we get a deeper appreciation for each of them.
And there are certainly a number of unpleasant scenes that only serve to take us out of ourselves and into a totally different perspective that may be completely alien or repulsive to us.
A perfect example would be the scene in BBM where they play with each other out in the open, only to realize that you see them through Aguirre's eyes. We initailly see this as something beautiful and light-hearted, until we realize that we have been momentarily put in the situation as Aguirre. This horrifies many of us, and strikes us as most unpleasant, because for a moment, we are made to see things in the eyes of someone who didn't exactly see things our way. It makes us abruptly reassess our perspective, in relation to another observer that we don't particularly find sympathetic or attractive. It disturbs us out of our sense of peace and equilibrium...
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Oh, this is a great prospect thomas. I don't think I ever realized why this scene and transition was so devastating. Reading your description of it, and thinking of that great close-up shot of the binoculars, just sent a chill up my back. Beauty and/or evil in the eye of the beholder.
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Wow! This topic just turned DEEP, didn't it. Thanks for the observation, Thomas.
I think this happens to a lesser extent in another scene I dislike viscerally, but know is necessary to the film -- when Jack makes overtures to the rodeo clown. We see Jack in all his loneliness trying to make contact with another human being, but then we see Jack through the clown's eyes as he refuses the drink and strolls over to his buddies and, I imagine, makes some sort of remark about Jack to them. Again, the viewer is jolted by the change of perspective in the scene.
Maybe it is this shock that makes the scene(s) disturbing and among those we consider unlikeable.
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These early and uncomfortable scenes with Aguirre, and then the clown really set the background tone of hostility that comes back twenty years later with the (possible) violent death of Jack. As you say lamusica + tpe, they're needed to set the idea of this as a possibility into the mind of the viewers.
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I do not believe there is a scene in the whole movie that was not made to move us and make us think about what what was happening between and to these men. I can not think of one scene where I was not challenged to think of my own life and how I have lived it. It's called art folks, and it moves us. That's enough for me.
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I do not believe there is a scene in the whole movie that was not made to move us and make us think about what what was happening between and to these men. I can not think of one scene where I was not challenged to think of my own life and how I have lived it. It's called art folks, and it moves us. That's enough for me.
You are soooooo right, BBBoy! But art just cries out to be analyzed. Sometimes it's not enough to say "I like it!" "It appeals to me." We need to discover what the essence of the thing is that made us fall in love with it -- in this case, BBM. In order to do that, we stumble across things that disturb us, or make us think in a way different than we used to, or that speak to us of our past -- thus, this thread. Sometimes the challenging parts of this film, the ones that carry the most meaning, are not easy to watch. I love the whole movie, including these scenes being discussed in this thread, because, as you stated, we need them all to flesh out the whole.
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You are soooooo right, BBBoy! But art just cries out to be analyzed. Sometimes it's not enough to say "I like it!" "It appeals to me." We need to discover what the essence of the thing is that made us fall in love with it -- in this case, BBM. In order to do that, we stumble across things that disturb us, or make us think in a way different than we used to, or that speak to us of our past -- thus, this thread. Sometimes the challenging parts of this film, the ones that carry the most meaning, are not easy to watch. I love the whole movie, including these scenes being discussed in this thread, because, as you stated, we need them all to flesh out the whole.
TY lamusica. I never tire of watching this movie and always come away with new insight and understanding. I suppose that is what great art is all about.
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I do not believe there is a scene in the whole movie that was not made to move us and make us think about what what was happening between and to these men. I can not think of one scene where I was not challenged to think of my own life and how I have lived it. It's called art folks, and it moves us. That's enough for me.
What he said.
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Thanks everyone for the wonderful posts over the weekend.
I do have a comment about the rodeo clown episode. I got to questioning myself as to what made this particularly unpleasant or disturbing.
I think many of us implicitly sees this scene initially in the light of Jack and Ennis. By this, I mean that in this scene, we know that Jack has moved to Texas, probably hoping to forget Ennis and perhaps finding someone else to fill the void. His advances to the rodeo clown brings to mind the success he had when making similar advances to Ennis during the summer of 63. The fact that Jack is completely unsuccessful with the clown is in sharp contrast to how we saw Jack had succeeded earlier with Ennis. In particular, I contrast this scene with the similar bar scene in Signal between Jack and Ennis. And what a contrast! It is perhaps this great difference that puts us off balance.
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Yes, very interesting comparing the Jack/rodeo clown scene with the Jack/Ennis in the bar and the Jack/FNIT scenes. These are wonderful pictures of a young, eager, and maybe somewhat blinded Jack. I'm not sure exactly what I'm trying to say here, but maybe Jack's early "success" with Ennis blinded him to the reality of trying to pickup up the rodeo clown in the middle of a packed bar full of cowboys. His friendship with Ennis happened and "deepened" when they were together and alone. Did Jack really think he could successfully come-on to that clown in the bar where he was known to a lot of other fellas? What a dreamer, but of course that's Jack. And of course this sets up the idea that Jack would possibly be just as blinded years later and not realize that his "friendship" with Randall or whoever might spark some violence against him.
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Yes, very interesting comparing the Jack/rodeo clown scene with the Jack/Ennis in the bar and the Jack/FNIT scenes. These are wonderful pictures of a young, eager, and maybe somewhat blinded Jack. I'm not sure exactly what I'm trying to say here, but maybe Jack's early "success" with Ennis blinded him to the reality of trying to pickup up the rodeo clown in the middle of a packed bar full of cowboys. His friendship with Ennis happened and "deepened" when they were together and alone. Did Jack really think he could successfully come-on to that clown in the bar where he was known to a lot of other fellas? What a dreamer, but of course that's Jack. And of course this sets up the idea that Jack would possibly be just as blinded years later and not realize that his "friendship" with Randall or whoever might spark some violence against him.
Exactly. Perhaps BOTH his success with Ennis, and his wanting to forget about him, drove Jack to try his luck with the rodeo clown. It probably convinced him all the more that Ennis was a trare find, in spite of all his "problems". His disappointment was palpable, and I think fear was also visible on his face. All these juxtaposed elements combine to make the scene with the rodeo clown particularly unpleasant. We measure it according to what came before... Well, this and the preceeding scene between Jack and Aguirre were unpleasant, and we somehow empathize with Jack all the more, because it seemed like some sort of retribution for all the happiness that had gone before.
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. . . It probably convinced him all the more that Ennis was a rare find, in spite of all his "problems". . .
I like this comment, Ennis musta' been a rare find indeed in the mountains of Wyoming! This also reminds me of another scene which I always feel kinda' uncomfortable watching- when Randall tries putting the moves on Jack outside the dance hall. The somewhat dumbfounded look on Jack's face here is always remarkable, like "What the hell, is this guy trying to hit on me?" As if Jack had never had it happen to him before, he'd always been the instigator but now found himself on the other side but wasn't sure how to react or if he was hearing right!
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I like this comment, Ennis musta' been a rare find indeed in the mountains of Wyoming! This also reminds me of another scene which I always feel kinda' uncomfortable watching- when Randall tries putting the moves on Jack outside the dance hall. The somewhat dumbfounded look on Jack's face here is always remarkable, like "What the hell, is this guy trying to hit on me?" As if Jack had never had it happen to him before, he'd always been the instigator but now found himself on the other side but wasn't sure how to react or if he was hearing right!
I think Jack must have been out of practice, after having been faithful (in his own limited way) to Ennis for twenty years. In the short story, and early in the movie, Jack was riding more than bulls. It doesn't say if he had sex with men or women in those rides, but he was not unfamiliar with the pickup scene.
In the clown scene, the misery on Jack's face was palpable before the clown walked in. When people are that lonely, they do stupid things, like an inadvertent pickup line in front of the bartender and a roomful of buddies. It also foreshadows his visit to Mexico later, when he was even more miserable. The introverted Ennis may be able to stand it, but the extroverted Jack needed to act on his needs; his judgment clouded by his turmoil.
I agree with you all that any experience Jack had with anyone else, only serves to remind him of Ennis' special qualities. That's what love does to people. That's why Jack said, Brokeback got us good.
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I like this comment, Ennis musta' been a rare find indeed in the mountains of Wyoming! This also reminds me of another scene which I always feel kinda' uncomfortable watching- when Randall tries putting the moves on Jack outside the dance hall. The somewhat dumbfounded look on Jack's face here is always remarkable, like "What the hell, is this guy trying to hit on me?" As if Jack had never had it happen to him before, he'd always been the instigator but now found himself on the other side but wasn't sure how to react or if he was hearing right!
I, too, found the look on Jack's face to be difficult to read. I just thought he was leary of Randall because it was too close to home. Had he met Randall somewhere else, he might have jumped on his band wagon right away without any real thought. However, his wife ( and Randall's wife) were right inside the building, and I think the thought of discussing things with Randall was too dangerous. Also, others were walking out the door and could have overheard. But, perhaps his reluctance to look Randall in the eye was showing us more than just the fear. He may have realized that he could have Randall, but what would that do to his relationship with Ennis. Whatever he was thinking, he certainly was thinking hard. He doesn't give Randall any kind of feedback that I can see.
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Some people think that Jack was surprised for Randall proposition; some think that Jack didn't wanted to have "that" conversation right there, with people all 'round. Brokies think that 'cause of the stunned look in Jack face. But I can't see that stunned face; I only see sadness in his eyes. That man so new for him was talking about fishing trips and cabins, and Jack couldn't help thinking about the one who has shared a lot fishing trips with, the one he really was in love with, the one he couldn't have. I think Jack was thinking about Ennis right there, 'cause life was so ironic: there was a man who was trying to have "something" with Jack, without Jack looking for it, and the one Jack loved and looked for, was trying, in some way, to run away from those feelings......
Just MHO. ^f^
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You're probably right, Baby T. I think he was surprised, but wary, thinking about Ennis and what it would mean if her were to take up with another man. I think that thought scared him. Basically, he wasn't willing to take the chance that he and Ennis would be over. I think, when faced with a life-altering decision, most of us hesitate a bit to think about all the ramifications that come with change, mainly, is the change worth the trouble. Was Jack so unhappy with the situation with Ennis as it stood at this point, or was it still something he could stand? We know that he stood it for awhile, but when the scene of the final fight came, he was on the breaking point. Had Randall asked him right then, he might have capitulated. However, when he saw Ennis break down, he knew where he had to stay.
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I like this comment, Ennis musta' been a rare find indeed in the mountains of Wyoming! This also reminds me of another scene which I always feel kinda' uncomfortable watching- when Randall tries putting the moves on Jack outside the dance hall. The somewhat dumbfounded look on Jack's face here is always remarkable, like "What the hell, is this guy trying to hit on me?" As if Jack had never had it happen to him before, he'd always been the instigator but now found himself on the other side but wasn't sure how to react or if he was hearing right!
Yes, I did think that what made the Randall scene "different" was that we are used to seeing Jack being the instigator, no? Of course, I suspect that this is the trait that made some unmentionable people call Jack a predator when BBM first came out. But to see the tables turned -- seeing him on the receiving end -- was quite discomfiting, no?
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I think Jack must have been out of practice, after having been faithful (in his own limited way) to Ennis for twenty years. In the short story, and early in the movie, Jack was riding more than bulls. It doesn't say if he had sex with men or women in those rides, but he was not unfamiliar with the pickup scene.
In the clown scene, the misery on Jack's face was palpable before the clown walked in. When people are that lonely, they do stupid things, like an inadvertent pickup line in front of the bartender and a roomful of buddies. It also foreshadows his visit to Mexico later, when he was even more miserable. The introverted Ennis may be able to stand it, but the extroverted Jack needed to act on his needs; his judgment clouded by his turmoil.
I agree with you all that any experience Jack had with anyone else, only serves to remind him of Ennis' special qualities. That's what love does to people. That's why Jack said, Brokeback got us good.
I must say that what makes the clown scene distasteful is what you have just said here -- that it was a low point for Jack, and he was indeed miserable. He probably thought that his seeing Ennis had come to an end, and it made him especially vulnerable from both within and without. We see this doubnle vulnerability in the bar scene with the rodeo clown...
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I, too, found the look on Jack's face to be difficult to read. I just thought he was leary of Randall because it was too close to home. Had he met Randall somewhere else, he might have jumped on his band wagon right away without any real thought. However, his wife ( and Randall's wife) were right inside the building, and I think the thought of discussing things with Randall was too dangerous. Also, others were walking out the door and could have overheard. But, perhaps his reluctance to look Randall in the eye was showing us more than just the fear. He may have realized that he could have Randall, but what would that do to his relationship with Ennis. Whatever he was thinking, he certainly was thinking hard. He doesn't give Randall any kind of feedback that I can see.
I think some of us thought that at that moment, Jack was probably thinking of Ennis, the same way he was probably thinking of him suring the first dance with Lureen. If one thought of it this way, then the scene with Randall becomes especially distasteful, given that Jack must have been uncomfortable -- perhaps a part of him wanting to let go, whereas a part of him holding on to what he truly felt deep inside.
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Some people think that Jack was surprised for Randall proposition; some think that Jack didn't wanted to have "that" conversation right there, with people all 'round. Brokies think that 'cause of the stunned look in Jack face. But I can't see that stunned face; I only see sadness in his eyes. That man so new for him was talking about fishing trips and cabins, and Jack couldn't help thinking about the one who has shared a lot fishing trips with, the one he really was in love with, the one he couldn't have. I think Jack was thinking about Ennis right there, 'cause life was so ironic: there was a man who was trying to have "something" with Jack, without Jack looking for it, and the one Jack loved and looked for, was trying, in some way, to run away from those feelings......
Just MHO. ^f^
Beautifully said, Tammy. Yes, this was how I felt about this scene also, which is why my reaction to it also relfects a great deal of sadness -- a sadness that I do seem to see in Jack's eyes at that moment, the same way we see it when he first danced with Lureen.
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i didnt disslike any scenes but there are some i wish i had never seen because its too sad
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Well, for me there is an especially hard scene that I don't like. In fact, I almost hate it and I try to avoid it. Jack being beaten.That's the most painful, horrible, sad and cruel thing I've ever seen. UNBEARABLE.
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I hate that one, too, but then I realized that scene just played out in Ennis's mind. There's no proof that it really happened. So, I choose to think it didn't. You can call that avoidance but it works for me!
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I guess am ready to return to these threads. As usual, and as before, am in the position of challenging people taking things for granted.
The rodeo clown scene. Everybody is just assuming Jack was coming on to that guy and this just tells me people are bringing along a lot of
baggage to their viewing of the characters.
Males have tribal needs, to talk to, and get along with other males, and this is true, gay, straight, or bi. In fact, most taverns are full of....
males, trying to get along with...other males. Jack was alone. Striking up a conversation with the clown that distracted the bull...was normal.
Sheesh, if he wanted to cruise, he coulda done a lot better than that jerk.
The ONLY sense that something was wrong, was from the clown. And there, he HAD other friends (around the pool table) and Jack HAD
broken the code of the west (being overly friendly). And Jack stalked out not because he was shot down in some sexual advance (and please
tell me where that was), but because yet ANOTHER male was judging him as a pissant.
Please, it is not established Jack was making a pass. He certainly didn't with Randall, but was, instead---paralyzed, when social talk turned
sexual. But this take on the clown scene is, once again, to make Jack aggressively gay, rather than a lonely person. Baggage. Unproven.
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I agree with you Tony. I've always thought that Jack, needing as always the company of another human being, only wanted to shared a drink. He was so alone in that town, so why not to have a friend?. That is why I always didn't like that asshole: I just didn't understand why he was so "scared" and shocked, 'cause Jack was only being grateful and nice. And I say grateful 'cause if a man save my life from to die kicked by a bull, then I would invite him more than a beer. That's for sure. So Jack was only doing the right thing. But as you say I guess west code means to be a rough person; I don't know. I think today would be the contrary: Jack the kind right man and that jerk, just a jerk.
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Thanks for agreeing, BabyTammy, but a major OUCH! In returning to these threads, I was a little too insensitive. Those who posted
assuming the clown scene was a sexual overture, happen to be people I admire. And their "take" is OK. I guess I just didn't think, in posting
so strong of an opinion. I hope they will consider the times we are in, and that I do regret that I did a belly-flop in how I worded what I said.
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Oh, Tony, no harm done. Your opinion is always welcome here. I try to see it your way, but just can't. The way Jack eyed the clown before the clown came up to the bar is my clue that he didn't see him as just a possible friend. But then, I may be projecting what I would think if someone looked at me in that manner. I know that is not just a friendly look-- the over the shoulder, head hunkered down, eyes cast to the side look. That is flirtatious in my book. But it doesn't bother me at all that you see it differently.
I remember posting once that I thought in the very beginning when Ennis and Jack first went up BBM, Jack was just looking for friendship and, BOY, was I cut down! So, we all have our own opinions, than God, and are welcome to them. Afterall, there is no right or wrong here -- no higher power to prove one way or another.
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Well, for me there is an especially hard scene that I don't like. In fact, I almost hate it and I try to avoid it. Jack being beaten.That's the most painful, horrible, sad and cruel thing I've ever seen. UNBEARABLE.
yer i agree but again i didnt dislike it it was just very hard to watch and accept. i feel bad that there are still guys out there who are like me in that they are straight but they could take someones life for being a little differen. i discovered that there isnt a point in the film were you can turn it off to give it a happy ending not 1 but i suppose the film would have lost its power if it was all chipper.
in regards to jack and the clown i wondered about that too but then i decided i think he was just being friendly or maybe he wanted sex i dont think it was a relationship he was after i have to tell myself that jack cant of liked the other men he loved only ennis and when he slept with the guy in mexico he just wanted reminded of ennis there was no love there. god ive got PBS real bad
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. . . .Everybody is just assuming Jack was coming on to that guy and this just tells me people are bringing along a lot of
baggage to their viewing of the characters.
. . . Please, it is not established Jack was making a pass. He certainly didn't with Randall, but was, instead---paralyzed, when social talk turned
sexual. But this take on the clown scene is, once again, to make Jack aggressively gay, rather than a lonely person. Baggage. Unproven.
Sorry Tony, really gotta go with the Jack “pick-up” view here. Just stepping back for a minute, why else put that scene in the film? Just to show that Jack was lonely? Seems there would have been some easier (and less confusing) ways to do this. It looks to me that the intent was to show Jack not only lonely, but also on the prowl for a companion, a male companion. And then there is the not uncoincidental resemblance of dress and stature between the clown and Ennis. Compare this scene with Jack’s very reluctant meeting with Lureen, “What are you waiting for cowboy?” He didn’t wait around for an introduction with the clown, no sir, moved over and put his money right out there on the bar. Jack (the dreamer) wasn’t thinking that the clown of course was probably a regular local and knew a lot guys in the place, ain’t no way he’s gonna go walkin’ out with Jack while his friends are standing over there. JMO
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Hi, Jackster---I could see the pick-up take more credible, except it was so open. Whatever Jack may or may not have done that was
seductive with Ennis, before FNIT, it was in a closed, safe, environment. Even in the alley in Mexico, he knew where he was, and was not
flamboyant. With Randall, he just kind of sat there....duh.....on his face, then, very, very careful. So all these others point to a Jack, whatever
his sexuality, that knew it had to be hidden.
Why was the scene included, then? Perhaps to show how he didn't fit in with the code of the west. Why, please, was the scene included
where the guy describes him as a "piss-ant"? If you question the one, then why not the other?
I guess both takes are a dead-even stand-off. Yours is supportable, and I believe mine is, too. Best deal would be to say neither are established,
at least not in the sense, for example, that Jack made the first move in FNIT.
What really brings me to my own conclusion are the long years I spent at the neighborhood taverns. Jack's behavior would not have been seen
as a come-on. The clown's response would have marked him as...a jerk.
Even so, I will look much closer the next time I see the DVD. You are observant, and there's stuff I may have missed.
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The clown scene and meeting Lureen you can look at it in many different ways. Jackster makes very good points so does Tony. Those two scene in themselves have a lot of meaning. Social standing and cultural differences, what was the difference between roping calves and riding bulls, what in heck did that mean?
Was Jack coming on too strong with the clown, that he held it back with Lureen? Was it,her social standing, or making another misstep that he was leery in approaching her? There was a code underneath that Jack was not familiar with. His openness almost made him seem like a hick. He was the pissant in that fancy suit.
Jack may have try to come on to the clown, but there were landmines in a society he wasn't familiar with, an undiscovered country, that he had to work his way through. Remember in the ss Jack was almost speaking another language in the way he prononce his words. He adapted the Texan way of talking. Jack changed his dress, his way of speaking, even growing the mustache. Ennis on the other hand was still the same no change at all, he kept his meager possessions in a sack, the same way he did at nineteen he did at thirty-nine.
I'm going off the beaten path, sorry.
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Well, for me there is an especially hard scene that I don't like. In fact, I almost hate it and I try to avoid it. Jack being beaten.That's the most painful, horrible, sad and cruel thing I've ever seen. UNBEARABLE.
Oh God.
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Interesting exchanges about the rodeo clown scene.
In any case, all opinions are certainly welcome.
I don't particularly "hate" that scene, but I really feel sorry for Jack everytime I see it.
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I find any scene in which Jack is rejected to be hard to swallow. However, this may be because Jake G. is playing the part. Were the actor some less appealing person, less handsome, less engaging, it might not be so bad, but, then, we wouldn't all love Jack as much as we do, and the impact of the whole movie may have been different.
I keep wondering what I would think or how I would feel had I read the short story first, then seen the movie. I think there would be a difference. I would still feel for Jack, but would I be devastated by that scene? Hmmmmmm......
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Hi, Jackster---I could see the pick-up take more credible, except it was so open. Whatever Jack may or may not have done that was seductive with Ennis, before FNIT, it was in a closed, safe, environment. . . . I guess both takes are a dead-even stand-off. Yours is supportable, and I believe mine is, too. Best deal would be to say neither are established . . .
Yeah, it's all guessing the number of angels that'll fit on the head of pin, so your right - we're both right. I was never any good at the bar pick-up scene anyway, so I'm sure no expert here on what Jack did do or shoulda' done to score, or whether he was even trying to score. It just looks like that to me and the clowns reaction made me think he thought the same thing too. I probably should of mentioned that I was possibly influenced by an earlier movie script in which the guys at the pool table actually follow Jack outside and begin taunting him while he drives off. This was wisely in my opinion NOT included in the film.
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I find any scene in which Jack is rejected to be hard to swallow. However, this may be because Jake G. is playing the part. Were the actor some less appealing person, less handsome, less engaging, it might not be so bad, but, then, we wouldn't all love Jack as much as we do, and the impact of the whole movie may have been different.
I keep wondering what I would think or how I would feel had I read the short story first, then seen the movie. I think there would be a difference. I would still feel for Jack, but would I be devastated by that scene? Hmmmmmm......
youre saying we wouldnt like jack if he was played by less attractive actor. what does that say for the straight fans of the film
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Yeah, it's all guessing the number of angels that'll fit on the head of pin, so your right - we're both right. I was never any good at the bar pick-up scene anyway, so I'm sure no expert here on what Jack did do or shoulda' done to score, or whether he was even trying to score. It just looks like that to me and the clowns reaction made me think he thought the same thing too. I probably should of mentioned that I was possibly influenced by an earlier movie script in which the guys at the pool table actually follow Jack outside and begin taunting him while he drives off. This was wisely in my opinion NOT included in the film.
Oh my, that would have been so cruel. Cyn also told me a few days ago that she read too that earlier scrip and in it there was a scene outside Aguirre trailer where some tough guy of Signal tried to beat Jack 'cause Aguirre told some men about Jack.
As I said to her, life, especially Jack's life, is hard enough without punches, and also he had enough people laughing at him, so as you I think that it was wisely not included in the film. My heart is so broken, I don't need more cruelty. Poor Jack, what a terrible life, always being hated, and still he kept being so kind and sweet. He was so special indeed. He never lost the faith in human beings. <^( <^( <^(
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Oh my, that would have been so cruel. Cyn also told me a few days ago that she read too that earlier scrip and in it there was a scene outside Aguirre trailer where some tough guy of Signal tried to beat Jack 'cause Aguirre told some men about Jack.
As I said to her, life, especially Jack's life, is hard enough without punches, and also he had enough people laughing at him, so as you I think that it was wisely not included in the film. My heart is so broken, I don't need more cruelty. Poor Jack, what a terrible life, always being hated, and still he kept being so kind and sweet. He was so special indeed. He never lost the faith in human beings. <^( <^( <^(
your words are true babytammy i can say hand on heart that i too love jack not in the way ennis did but i admire him as an amazing person
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youre saying we wouldnt like jack if he was played by less attractive actor. what does that say for the straight fans of the film
Well, I don't think straightness has anything to do with aesthetics, zankou. Straight people appreciate personality, good-looks, charisma as much as gay people do. The point I was making, and you certainly are free to disagree, is that the persona of Jack Twist, as played by Jake Gyllenhal, is attractive - totally -- not quite how Annie Proulx painted him in her short story. I then am questioning if Jack's attractiveness has anything to do with our feelings for him. Sorry if this does not sit well with you. Oh, btw, I'm about as straight as they come; I just don't see where that has any bearing on this comment.
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Well, I don't think straightness has anything to do with aesthetics, zankou. Straight people appreciate personality, good-looks, charisma as much as gay people do. The point I was making, and you certainly are free to disagree, is that the persona of Jack Twist, as played by Jake Gyllenhal, is attractive - totally -- not quite how Annie Proulx painted him in her short story. I then am questioning if Jack's attractiveness has anything to do with our feelings for him. Sorry if this does not sit well with you. Oh, btw, I'm about as straight as they come; I just don't see where that has any bearing on this comment.
lamusica,
You bring up a very good question, AP made it a point in describing Jack as being kind of a homely guy, which for me made the love story so endearing and so painful. It was story of of two regular guys, almost overlooked in a crowd, but had a love so large, so deep, so beautiful it when past looks, but what lie beneath, that need and love for each other where no such thing was expected.
Let's face it this a hollywood movie, of course they would have Heath and Jake play those roles two very handsome and attractive men, yes talented actors, but what if they had actors closer to AP description, would we straight or gay believe in this love, could we think it even possible, plausible?
Or do we have to dig deeper in ourselves to think that such a thing could even be possible, and still feel what feel today?
This may be way off topic, but this question always intrigued me, what do you guys think?
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I hate that one, too, but then I realized that scene just played out in Ennis's mind. There's no proof that it really happened. So, I choose to think it didn't. You can call that avoidance but it works for me!
Me, too, lamusica. I have never truly watched that scene attentively -- don't know when I will. But from the first, like you, I saw it as Ennis's worse nightmare, that that's what would have happened to Jack. Not that it did happen. Works for me, too. Except at the same time, I want people who might be ignorant of such hatred of gays to have that thrown in their face, that those people would do that to Jack, just for who he was.
kathy
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Hi, Jackster---I could see the pick-up take more credible, except it was so open. Whatever Jack may or may not have done that was
seductive with Ennis, before FNIT, it was in a closed, safe, environment. Even in the alley in Mexico, he knew where he was, and was not
flamboyant. With Randall, he just kind of sat there....duh.....on his face, then, very, very careful. So all these others point to a Jack, whatever
his sexuality, that knew it had to be hidden.
Why was the scene included, then? Perhaps to show how he didn't fit in with the code of the west. Why, please, was the scene included
where the guy describes him as a "piss-ant"? If you question the one, then why not the other?
I guess both takes are a dead-even stand-off. Yours is supportable, and I believe mine is, too. Best deal would be to say neither are established,
at least not in the sense, for example, that Jack made the first move in FNIT.
What really brings me to my own conclusion are the long years I spent at the neighborhood taverns. Jack's behavior would not have been seen
as a come-on. The clown's response would have marked him as...a jerk.
Even so, I will look much closer the next time I see the DVD. You are observant, and there's stuff I may have missed.
I agree that under just RL circumstances, Jack's actions in the bar are just regular guy/bar behavior, totally. I know bars, too, and guys in bars do hook up just to sit there and drink and say a few words. But because of its being an integral scene, or Ang Lee wouldn't have put it in, I think it is there to intimate an attempted come-on by Jack, to show the danger he could so easily put himself in. The way the rodeo clown went over to his pals and they all looked over at Jack, and the way Jack made a hasty retreat -- seems to me that's a clear meaning of the scene. Especially as they didn't keep in the scene of the garage guys with the tire-irons.
kathy
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lamusica,
You bring up a very good question, AP made it a point in describing Jack as being kind of a homely guy, which for me made the love story so endearing and so painful. It was story of of two regular guys, almost overlooked in a crowd, but had a love so large, so deep, so beautiful it when past looks, but what lie beneath, that need and love for each other where no such thing was expected.
Let's face it this a hollywood movie, of course they would have Heath and Jake play those roles two very handsome and attractive men, yes talented actors, but what if they had actors closer to AP description, would we straight or gay believe in this love, could we think it even possible, plausible?
Or do we have to dig deeper in ourselves to think that such a thing could even be possible, and still feel what feel today?
This may be way off topic, but this question always intrigued me, what do you guys think?
Hi MG!!
I started a thread long time ago asking the same questions as you!! If you want to give it a try there it is:
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=11940.0
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I find any scene in which Jack is rejected to be hard to swallow. However, this may be because Jake G. is playing the part. Were the actor some less appealing person, less handsome, less engaging, it might not be so bad, but, then, we wouldn't all love Jack as much as we do, and the impact of the whole movie may have been different.
I keep wondering what I would think or how I would feel had I read the short story first, then seen the movie. I think there would be a difference. I would still feel for Jack, but would I be devastated by that scene? Hmmmmmm......
Hmmmm.... I must admit that what you say here seems to apply to me also -- at least subliminally. Although Jake is pretty much invisible to me as Jack, I can't help but agree with you that his magnetism does have an unconscious pull over my reactions to certain scenes (especially those "difficult" ones), and I would be a liar if I say otherwise.
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Well, I don't think straightness has anything to do with aesthetics, zankou. Straight people appreciate personality, good-looks, charisma as much as gay people do. The point I was making, and you certainly are free to disagree, is that the persona of Jack Twist, as played by Jake Gyllenhal, is attractive - totally -- not quite how Annie Proulx painted him in her short story. I then am questioning if Jack's attractiveness has anything to do with our feelings for him. Sorry if this does not sit well with you. Oh, btw, I'm about as straight as they come; I just don't see where that has any bearing on this comment.
OT: In fact, wasn't there a recent study published in all the major papers (e.g., the NY Times) a few days ago about straight men invariably checking out other men who are potentially attractive to wives, girlfriends, or any other woman they might be involved with? The study notes further that men do have a strong sense of connoisseurship and appreciation for masculine beauty.
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Well, I don't think straightness has anything to do with aesthetics, zankou. Straight people appreciate personality, good-looks, charisma as much as gay people do. The point I was making, and you certainly are free to disagree, is that the persona of Jack Twist, as played by Jake Gyllenhal, is attractive - totally -- not quite how Annie Proulx painted him in her short story. I then am questioning if Jack's attractiveness has anything to do with our feelings for him. Sorry if this does not sit well with you. Oh, btw, I'm about as straight as they come; I just don't see where that has any bearing on this comment.
sorry for my previouse post to you it sounded harsher then intended %&). but i understand what you mean now anyway lol sorry
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OT: zankou1991, I hope I speak for lamusica and everyone else that no apologies are needed. In these threads, you can share your thoughts freely. People may not agree, but that is beside the point. What we want here is an exchange of ideas, and all points of view, presenteld well enough, are most appreciated.
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sorry for my previouse post to you it sounded harsher then intended %&). but i understand what you mean now anyway lol sorry
Ditto to what tpe says above.
Keep posting, zankou, and keep on being true to yourself. That's what we do around here.
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OT: zankou1991, I hope I speak for lamusica and everyone else that no apologies are needed. In these threads, you can share your thoughts freely. People may not agree, but that is beside the point. What we want here is an exchange of ideas, and all points of view, presenteld well enough, are most appreciated.
thanks tpe and lamusica its good to know i can speak freely hear :)
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I can't picture the movie without a scene thats already in it (did that come out right? ::))
I think that all the scenes are important for the movie to be as heartbreaking as It is, but I actually don't like the scenes with Alma Jr, for me It doesn't feel like she wants her dad to be happy and she seams very bitter
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I can't picture the movie without a scene thats already in it (did that come out right? ::))
I think that all the scenes are important for the movie to be as heartbreaking as It is, but I actually don't like the scenes with Alma Jr, for me It doesn't feel like she wants her dad to be happy and she seams very bitter
hmmmm thats intresting i felt a bit the oposite of that. i think alma junior was bitter to cassie because she felt her not good enough for her father. i think alma jr is one of the few characters who would have been happy for ennis if his relationship with jack became clear
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hmmmm thats intresting i felt a bit the oposite of that. i think alma junior was bitter to cassie because she felt her not good enough for her father. i think alma jr is one of the few characters who would have been happy for ennis if his relationship with jack became clear
yea maybe, I still don't like her :P
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yea maybe, I still don't like her :P
lol i didnt expect you would lol
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Alma, Jr. like Jack wanted more from Ennis than he was able to give. Towards the end he conceded two things, he acknowledge his love for Jack, and giving more of himself to his daughter, after all these were the only two people that truly loved him for himself.
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Alma, Jr. like Jack wanted more from Ennis than he was able to give. Towards the end he conceded two things, he acknowledge his love for Jack, and giving more of himself to his daughter, after all these were the only two people that truly loved him for himself.
that's true
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Alma, Jr. like Jack wanted more from Ennis than he was able to give. Towards the end he conceded two things, he acknowledge his love for Jack, and giving more of himself to his daughter, after all these were the only two people that truly loved him for himself.
:clap: :clap: good one manhattangirl very insightful :)
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I can't picture the movie without a scene thats already in it (did that come out right? ::))
I think that all the scenes are important for the movie to be as heartbreaking as It is, but I actually don't like the scenes with Alma Jr, for me It doesn't feel like she wants her dad to be happy and she seams very bitter
I think we have to remember that, in the scene with Cassie, Alma, Jr. is a teen-ager seeing a woman make a play for her daddy. She's still hurting from the divorce, even though it happened several years ago. In her mind, her dad belonged only with her mother, and, by extension, with her and her sister as a complete family unit. So, ANY other woman would have been seen as an interloper. I think she just showed a little jealousie that children feel when anyone else seems to want to get close to one of her parents. They're always seen as an outsider trying to insinuate themselves between the parent and the child. I don't think there was anything mean in Alma, Jr.'s intent.
Later, when Alma, Jr. comes to tell Ennis about her up-coming marriage, I agree with you, zankou. I feel that, at that moment, now that she is old enough to know what true love is, she would have been the one person who would have understood his feelings for Jack and would have supported them. She would love to have seen her daddy be happy. I love this scene because it shows how close Ennis and his daughter really were, eventhough they did not see each other very often. They just had a tight bond of love.
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I think we have to remember that, in the scene with Cassie, Alma, Jr. is a teen-ager seeing a woman make a play for her daddy. She's still hurting from the divorce, even though it happened several years ago. In her mind, her dad belonged only with her mother, and, by extension, with her and her sister as a complete family unit. So, ANY other woman would have been seen as an interloper. I think she just showed a little jealousie that children feel when anyone else seems to want to get close to one of her parents. They're always seen as an outsider trying to insinuate themselves between the parent and the child. I don't think there was anything mean in Alma, Jr.'s intent.
Later, when Alma, Jr. comes to tell Ennis about her up-coming marriage, I agree with you, zankou. I feel that, at that moment, now that she is old enough to know what true love is, she would have been the one person who would have understood his feelings for Jack and would have supported them. She would love to have seen her daddy be happy. I love this scene because it shows how close Ennis and his daughter really were, eventhough they did not see each other very often. They just had a tight bond of love.
you add so much dimension to my words lol my posts are flat compared to your version of the same point :)
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I can't picture the movie without a scene thats already in it (did that come out right? ::))
I think that all the scenes are important for the movie to be as heartbreaking as It is, but I actually don't like the scenes with Alma Jr, for me It doesn't feel like she wants her dad to be happy and she seams very bitter
Interesting. I somehow felt that she knew more about her dad, and was sorry for Cassie for what she didn't know. It's interesting how we see the same scene quite differently, no?
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Interesting. I somehow felt that she knew more about her dad, and was sorry for Cassie for what she didn't know. It's interesting how we see the same scene quite differently, no?
very interesting, maybe she knew more about her dad, but why didn't she say something?
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very interesting, maybe she knew more about her dad, but why didn't she say something?
well ennis wasnt to open about it he may have been offended by it. also she maybe was fearful other people would find out like the people who killed jack
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very interesting, maybe she knew more about her dad, but why didn't she say something?
But she did, didn't she? "Maybe he's not the marrying kind..."
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But she did, didn't she? "Maybe he's not the marrying kind..."
maybe, but I always thought the she said that because she didn't like cassie, I don't know....
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maybe, but I always thought the she said that because she didn't like cassie, I don't know....
Well, the phrase is vague enough to support both interpretations. Perhaps the pharse meant BOTH at the same time. :)
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Well, the phrase is vague enough to support both interpretations. Perhaps the pharse meant BOTH at the same time. :)
maybe but we will never know...
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maybe but we will never know...
yes we will never know. but isnt that one of the wonderful things of BBM so much is left un open and lets your own personal beleifs fill in the gaps. thats one of the reasons everyone has different opinions on the different bits for different reasons it almost lets you choose what you want to beleive.
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yes we will never know. but isnt that one of the wonderful things of BBM so much is left un open and lets your own personal beleifs fill in the gaps. thats one of the reasons everyone has different opinions on the different bits for different reasons it almost lets you choose what you want to beleive.
yes It's very good and one of the things I love about this movie
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*o) ooops we are straying from the question in our last few posts and im trying really hard to get all the rules right.
on seen that i dont like is whole jack coming onto the rodeo clown scene. i hate it infact. but i dont really beleive he was coming onto the clown just being genuinly friendly in my opinion. i wasn't keen on the scene with the male prostitute but at least i felt that jack was not being as much unfaithful to ennis then as just trying to be reminded of ennis.
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*o) ooops we are straying from the question in our last few posts and im trying really hard to get all the rules right.
on seen that i dont like is whole jack coming onto the rodeo clown scene. i hate it infact. but i dont really beleive he was coming onto the clown just being genuinly friendly in my opinion. i wasn't keen on the scene with the male prostitute but at least i felt that jack was not being as much unfaithful to ennis then as just trying to be reminded of ennis.
yeah I don't like the rodeo clown scene either...
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maybe but we will never know...
That's the power of intentional ambiguity, no?
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yes we will never know. but isnt that one of the wonderful things of BBM so much is left un open and lets your own personal beleifs fill in the gaps. thats one of the reasons everyone has different opinions on the different bits for different reasons it almost lets you choose what you want to beleive.
I should have read this before I did my last post, zankou. You say it much better here...
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*o) ooops we are straying from the question in our last few posts and im trying really hard to get all the rules right.
on seen that i dont like is whole jack coming onto the rodeo clown scene. i hate it infact. but i dont really beleive he was coming onto the clown just being genuinly friendly in my opinion. i wasn't keen on the scene with the male prostitute but at least i felt that jack was not being as much unfaithful to ennis then as just trying to be reminded of ennis.
I ahve not checked in a while, but it seems to me that the Rodeo Clown scene is the one many people here dislike the most...
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I ahve not checked in a while, but it seems to me that the Rodeo Clown scene is the one many people here dislike the most...
yer i dont so much dislike the scene as some off the opinions on it when people say he was looking for a relationship beyond frienship with the rodeo clown i cant accept this call me naive but i just couldnt think this. thinking like that would sullie jacks memory for me to me he had a pure soul and couldn't be unfaithful like that, i can accept the prostitute scene because there was no intention of a lasting relationship there he was just in my opinion trying to remember ennis
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yer i dont so much dislike the scene as some off the opinions on it when people say he was looking for a relationship beyond frienship with the rodeo clown i cant accept this call me naive but i just couldnt think this. thinking like that would sullie jacks memory for me to me he had a pure soul and couldn't be unfaithful like that, i can accept the prostitute scene because there was no intention of a lasting relationship there he was just in my opinion trying to remember ennis
Or in the rodeo clown scene Jack was trying to forget Ennis,because he believed he wasn't going to see him again then,and life goes on...In the case of the prostitute,it was not a question of being unfaithful or not,but a question of a mere sexual relief.He felt awful for Ennis rejection-and stupid behaviour,IMO- and just need to taking him apart from his mind and from his body,even for a while.But a mere sexual relationship is not being unfaithful,if he knew very well whom he really loved indeed.Love and feelings are stronger than a few fucks,in a high mountain or not... ;D
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Or in the rodeo clown scene Jack was trying to forget Ennis,because he believed he wasn't going to see him again then,and life goes on...In the case of the prostitute,it was not a question of being unfaithful or not,but a question of a mere sexual relief.He felt awful for Ennis rejection-and stupid behaviour,IMO- and just need to taking him apart from his mind and from his body,even for a while.But a mere sexual relationship is not being unfaithful,if he knew very well whom he really loved indeed.Love and feelings are stronger than a few fucks,in a high mountain or not... ;D
yep totally true :)
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I said in another occasion that one of the scenes I disliked the most it's when they say goodbye after leaving BBM; I've chosen it because it's for me the root of all the tragic posterior happenings in their lives.It's when they really had could take profit of the last time together and they hadn't;when they had could speak more deeply about themselves,their dreams and their fears,and they hadn't either.It's an scene that I find lamentable,because it reflects the lack of a real communication that would be their great problem during all their life.Everything is a lot of shy glances:Ennis looks at Jack from head to toes as if he wanted to have a picture of him in his mind to remember...Jack looks at Ennis with a plea in his eyes,as saying:"Please,don't go,don't leave me...",but he doesn't say anything with words.The coldness in their farewell is almost unbearable and Ennis remark of his marrying Alma soon is an stupid way of hurting Jack-I don't know if conscious or not...-.Nobody runs behind the truck or stops it to say what they really wish; and not doing this in that very moment,it's,for me at least,what makes a real problem in their lives forever.JMO.
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The divorce scene and Jack's death. My heart went out to Jack in the divorce scene. I found myself angry with Ennis though I absolutly adored him in the film. Just coud'nt justify this treatment of Jack when Ennis had another choice, but that's my rationale. The film is what it was.
Jack dying without ever achieving what he sought was devastating to me. I just was'nt ready. Kept hoping the postcard was a mistake. He gave such life to the film so I never saw it coming, nither did Ennis. Then Lureen's confirmation to Ennis on the phone.... To this day I am unable to watch it. Heartbreaking and senseless.
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The divorce scene and Jack's death. My heart went out to Jack in the divorce scene. I found myself angry with Ennis though I absolutly adored him in the film. Just coud'nt justify this treatment of Jack when Ennis had another choice, but that's my rationale. The film is what it was.
Jack dying without ever achieving what he sought was devastating to me. I just was'nt ready. Kept hoping the postcard was a mistake. He gave such life to the film so I never saw it coming, nither did Ennis. Then Lureen's confirmation to Ennis on the phone.... To this day I am unable to watch it. Heartbreaking and senseless.
yer i had heard before i watched the film that one of them was going to die but when the postcard came back stamped deceased i just couldnt take it my heart was going to expload and i felt sick and then when it became apparent that he was beaten to death for who he was i just got so depressed.
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*o) ooops we are straying from the question in our last few posts and im trying really hard to get all the rules right.
on seen that i dont like is whole jack coming onto the rodeo clown scene. i hate it infact. but i dont really beleive he was coming onto the clown just being genuinly friendly in my opinion. i wasn't keen on the scene with the male prostitute but at least i felt that jack was not being as much unfaithful to ennis then as just trying to be reminded of ennis.
I respectfully disagree. He was totally coming onto the rodeo clown. The way it he looked at him was really obvious, and the clown knew it, his whole attitude changed, and he got the heck away from Jack. Then he went and told his friends.
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I respectfully disagree. He was totally coming onto the rodeo clown. The way it he looked at him was really obvious, and the clown knew it, his whole attitude changed, and he got the heck away from Jack. Then he went and told his friends.
hmmm maybe, but what i am saying is that i beleive jack wasnt wanting a relationship just sex. but i suppose we dont know
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I'm convinced Jack was comin onto the rodeo clown too. This clown (no pun intended) suspected by Jack's smiles and prolonged stares. I don't think many of the men in that culture or in that bar, maintained much eye to eye contact like this. In any case the clown took his suspicions to his friends. Jack saw this and vacated the premises to avoid further huniliation and trouble. My take.
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I too am convinced. What made the scene unpleasant is to see him exposed this way and left open to rejection and possible bodily harm...
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The 4th of July scene.
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For me the scene where Ennis goes to Jack’s parents… that face, that cold man of a father in front of suffering Ennis, showing nothing but hatred, and the frighten mother, who was looking at him seeking permission all the time.
The moment Ennis came back downstairs with the two shirts in his hands.
(I held the armrest of my chair until I had white knuckles, I feared the old man will not consent Ennis to take those with him).
If you look the way Ennis is holding the shirts on the other side of his body, as to shield them away from the old man’s eyes, Ennis was holding dear Jack in his hands… at that point I could see Ennis’s hands on the old man’s throat fighting to take that piece of Jack with him, if he did tried anything.
The looks on both their faces, old man’s said “what you have there boy?” and Ennis’s “just try to stop me old man”.
Old man then said, to dig deeper into Ennis’s broken heart, “tell you what, we’ve got a family plot, he is going in it”… only Ennis won this time, because he was leaving with Jack’s declaration of eternal love for him and that was more important than Jack’s remains. Ennis had something real to touch and to hold until the end of days.
In my heart I believe “Jack, I swear” means that when Ennis would die, he and those shirts would be cremated and the ashes scattered on BBM as Jack’s final wish, finally together.
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For me the scene where Ennis goes to Jack’s parents… that face, that cold man of a father in front of suffering Ennis, showing nothing but hatred, and the frighten mother, who was looking at him seeking permission all the time.
The moment Ennis came back downstairs with the two shirts in his hands.
(I held the armrest of my chair until I had white knuckles, I feared the old man will not consent Ennis to take those with him).
If you look the way Ennis is holding the shirts on the other side of his body, as to shield them away from the old man’s eyes, Ennis was holding dear Jack in his hands… at that point I could see Ennis’s hands on the old man’s throat fighting to take that piece of Jack with him, if he did tried anything.
The looks on both their faces, old man’s said “what you have there boy?” and Ennis’s “just try to stop me old man”.
Old man then said, to dig deeper into Ennis’s broken heart, “tell you what, we’ve got a family plot, he is going in it”… only Ennis won this time, because he was leaving with Jack’s declaration of eternal love for him and that was more important than Jack’s remains. Ennis had something real to touch and to hold until the end of days.
In my heart I believe “Jack, I swear” means that when Ennis would die, he and those shirts would be cremated and the ashes scattered on BBM as Jack’s final wish, finally together.
their is a topic about what the jack i swear is meaning that is a good point you should post it there :), and i loved your finally together part so true i just know as soon as ennis dies he will be back with jack ( i know they are not real people but to me they are i think the way they were made flesh and blood must have made them like a person thats why jacks death and all the other saddness in the film was so real they wernt just characters they were real people in my eyes)
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I'm convinced Jack was comin onto the rodeo clown too. This clown (no pun intended) suspected by Jack's smiles and prolonged stares. I don't think many of the men in that culture or in that bar, maintained much eye to eye contact like this. In any case the clown took his suspicions to his friends. Jack saw this and vacated the premises to avoid further huniliation and trouble. My take.
The rodeo clown scene unpleasant as it was, showed the world that Jack was up against, but how he himself dealt with it. He didn't stay in his room a bottle of whiskey and say the heck with it, like being on bucking horse he fell off, and got back on. Jack had no fear of the world, but knew how to maneuver in it.
Sometimes I think Jack would have been a guide in world Ennis was unfamilar and afraid of .
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The divorce scene and Jack's death. My heart went out to Jack in the divorce scene. I found myself angry with Ennis though I absolutly adored him in the film. Just coud'nt justify this treatment of Jack when Ennis had another choice, but that's my rationale. The film is what it was.
Jack dying without ever achieving what he sought was devastating to me. I just was'nt ready. Kept hoping the postcard was a mistake. He gave such life to the film so I never saw it coming, nither did Ennis. Then Lureen's confirmation to Ennis on the phone.... To this day I am unable to watch it. Heartbreaking and senseless.
I'd rather this thread be called "What scenes hurt you the most to watch", rather than dislike....I dont dislike ANYTHING about this film, but there are scenes within it that hurt me.
Like the post-divorce scene....even reading it in the screenplay, seen in stark black and white, makes me cry. That's an incredible talent to have, to be able to convey what is written to the screen, through so few words and actions....Heath and Jake were able to do that with this scene. Every time I watch it, I want to scream and shout at Ennis "dont send him away!", but he does. :\'( :\'( It's heartbreaking to see how Jack goes from being this happy guy, excited about hs future, to being a rejected, empty soul, betrayed by Ennis's words and lack of them, and sent away with his heart broken. The scene with Jack in the car, crying, with the song "A love that will never grow old" playing upsets me so much.
I'm so angry at Ennis in that scene too - and I'm an Ennis girl. I know why Ennis sent him away, but I cant forgive him for it.
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I'm convinced Jack was comin onto the rodeo clown too. This clown (no pun intended) suspected by Jack's smiles and prolonged stares. I don't think many of the men in that culture or in that bar, maintained much eye to eye contact like this. In any case the clown took his suspicions to his friends. Jack saw this and vacated the premises to avoid further huniliation and trouble. My take.
I totally agree. Its how I saw this scene too. Jack was definitely coming on to the rodeo clown. I didnt like that scene either, I felt for Jack so much, it was hard to see him try and pick the guy up, and then to be rejected and humiliated at the same time.
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I'm convinced Jack was comin onto the rodeo clown too. This clown (no pun intended) suspected by Jack's smiles and prolonged stares. I don't think many of the men in that culture or in that bar, maintained much eye to eye contact like this. In any case the clown took his suspicions to his friends. Jack saw this and vacated the premises to avoid further huniliation and trouble. My take.
Yes,it's unpleasant to see the humiliation and,above all,the more than possible risks than Jack run by making a pass at the clown.But the reality is that one of Jack's faults was to be a little too bold,too risky,bearing in mind the kind of social environment that surrounded him then.So,if you go for something "dangerous" is easy to crash yourself against the wall,and Jack could have thought this...IMO,and although this can be a little *o) -it'd be better to post it in another thread about Jack ...-,between Ennis excessive fears and paranoia that often paralysed him and Jack sometimes excessive not realisation of this environment and what it could bring to him that often could put him in danger,there could be a middle point-I don't know how you say this,sorry...-.
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I'd rather this thread be called "What scenes hurt you the most to watch", rather than dislike....I dont dislike ANYTHING about this film, but there are scenes within it that hurt me.
Like the post-divorce scene....even reading it in the screenplay, seen in stark black and white, makes me cry. That's an incredible talent to have, to be able to convey what is written to the screen, through so few words and actions....Heath and Jake were able to do that with this scene. Every time I watch it, I want to scream and shout at Ennis "dont send him away!", but he does. :\'( :\'( It's heartbreaking to see how Jack goes from being this happy guy, excited about hs future, to being a rejected, empty soul, betrayed by Ennis's words and lack of them, and sent away with his heart broken. The scene with Jack in the car, crying, with the song "A love that will never grow old" playing upsets me so much.
I'm so angry at Ennis in that scene too - and I'm an Ennis girl. I know why Ennis sent him away, but I cant forgive him for it.
I completely agree with you again,Chris¡ O0 I'm a Jack girl in my case,so it was easy for me to feel sorry for his(new) dissapointment...I also wanted to shout at Ennis not to let him go away,that he asked him to stay even if they must be with the girls-Man¡ you'll know how to be discreet in your Love's "effusions"¡ I remember to say the first time I saw this scene... ;D -.I could feel what Jack felt in this moment and ,so,I thought,and still think,that they lost a great opportunity to live fully their love just in this scene(the first lost opportunity,IMO,was at the farewell down on the mountain; an scene that I find difficult to see...).
Splendid one,by the way,with Heath's restraint-stupid restraint,I'd say...-and Jake making his best to reflect his deep disappointment and grief by seeing his hopes in getting this "sweet life" rejected one more time¡ :clap: Really,great interpretations¡.
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I completely agree with you again,Chris¡ O0 I'm a Jack girl in my case,so it was easy for me to feel sorry for his(new) dissapointment...I also wanted to shout at Ennis not to let him go away,that he asked him to stay even if they must be with the girls-Man¡ you'll know how to be discreet in your Love's "effusions"¡ I remember to say the first time I saw this scene... ;D -.I could feel what Jack felt in this moment and ,so,I thought,and still think,that they lost a great opportunity to live fully their love just in this scene(the first lost opportunity,IMO,was at the farewell down on the mountain; an scene that I find difficult to see...).
Splendid one,by the way,with Heath's restraint-stupid restraint,I'd say...-and Jake making his best to reflect his deep disappointment and grief by seeing his hopes in getting this "sweet life" rejected one more time¡ :clap: Really,great interpretations¡.
It was a lost opportunity - and Ennis had many of those. It was always Ennis disappointing Jack, time and time again. How Jack was able to keep coming back to him, he must have loved Ennis more than he loved himself to do that.
The scene by the river, when Jack is trying to pursuade Ennis to live the sweet life Jack wanted so badly, is another one that hurts me. You can see Jack hesitate before he starts to talk - thinking whether he should take the chance and say what he is thinking to Ennis -and then he does, and Ennis knocks him back, again. And what does Jack do in the face of another disappointment? He strokes Ennis's face, so sweetly and tenderly.....he cant help it, he loves him.
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It was a lost opportunity - and Ennis had many of those. It was always Ennis disappointing Jack, time and time again. How Jack was able to keep coming back to him, he must have loved Ennis more than he loved himself to do that.
The scene by the river, when Jack is trying to pursuade Ennis to live the sweet life Jack wanted so badly, is another one that hurts me. You can see Jack hesitate before he starts to talk - thinking whether he should take the chance and say what he is thinking to Ennis -and then he does, and Ennis knocks him back, again. And what does Jack do in the face of another disappointment? He strokes Ennis's face, so sweetly and tenderly.....he cant help it, he loves him.
Yes,this is the first dissapointment Jack had in his wild dreams of a sharing life with the man he loved...or perhaps the second?I mean,after the farewell down the mountain,as I said before.I've always thought that Jack felt easier and almost happier than Ennis,and even wanted to play with the lasso,because he really thought there will be a chance to keep on seeing each other in REAL LIFE after their time in BBM.Ennis knew very well that he couldn't allow himself this,because he was going to marry and because...OMG,NO,DATING WITH A MAN¡ :i and for this reason he seemed more devastated than Jack-who should be because he was always more open to show feelings...-don't you think so?.
And yes,he really loved Ennis,at the point of understanding his reasons for not living together-even if he felt so hurt...poor Jack¡-and caress him.Because he knew that Ennis also loved him,as a matter of fact He's who said"There ain't no reins on this one"...And Jack's happiness by hearing this was greater than the sadness of being rejected,IMO.
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Yes,this is the first dissapointment Jack had in his wild dreams of a sharing life with the man he loved...or perhaps the second?I mean,after the farewell down the mountain,as I said before.I've always thought that Jack felt easier and almost happier than Ennis,and even wanted to play with the lasso,because he really thought there will be a chance to keep on seeing each other in REAL LIFE after their time in BBM.Ennis knew very well that he couldn't allow himself this,because he was going to marry and because...OMG,NO,DATING WITH A MAN¡ :i and for this reason he seemed more devastated than Jack-who should be because he was always more open to show feelings...-don't you think so?.
And yes,he really loved Ennis,at the point of understanding his reasons for not living together-even if he felt so hurt...poor Jack¡-and caress him.Because he knew that Ennis also loved him,as a matter of fact He's who said"There ain't no reins on this one"...And Jack's happiness by hearing this was greater than the sadness of being rejected,IMO.
Oh absolutely...I meant to add that to my comment, I know that Ennis loved Jack too, from the way he said "There aint no reins on this one" its clear that Ennis was struggling with his feelings for Jack and what he felt was his "real" life with Alma.
It was all part of their love for each other, and how frustrating it all was.
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The 4th of July scene.
I know what you mean. Not that I dislike Ennis becoming violent. I assume you dislike it because of the bikers and their crass behavior...
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well i found this thread to talk about "yee hawing" and jacks rodeo dance,but im sure ill end up commenting on other scenes as the time passes... i dont dislike any scenes, but i always found the yaa haw and the rodeo dance very cute, hows jacks childish and fun nature <^(, and also the rode dance is jsut so cute the way he compleatly messes up by falling ;D, he in an awkward situation courting Ennis and he is really trying everything <^(
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I don't really dislike any scenes,because all of them are made with a purpose and magnifically made,moreover¡. :clap: However,if I had to choose some,I'd be any of them where Ennis shows his violence-that of July the 4th,but also the argument with Alma or the driver...-.Not only for the violence in itself,but because it's a consequence of all the frustration he had inside him and that must be shown in any way.
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LIke MPJ and Matt, I also am hard-pressed to dislike any scene, no matter how sad or crushed the protagonists are. Even the tire-iron scene -- I suppose I dread it, but I don't dislike it. I suppose MPJ puts it well: everything had a purpose. They bring out the right emotions and feelings in us at very specific moments, and the beauty and art of it all is that we connect with all this, no matter how much or in what way they affect us...
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LIke MPJ and Matt, I also am hard-pressed to dislike any scene, no matter how sad or crushed the protagonists are. Even the tire-iron scene -- I suppose I dread it, but I don't dislike it. I suppose MPJ puts it well: everything had a purpose. They bring out the right emotions and feelings in us at very specific moments, and the beauty and art of it all is that we connect with all this, no matter how much or in what way they affect us...
the tire scene makes me feel actually ill, i used it in a video once slowed down and nearly threw up afterwards but it has a clear purpose in the film and makes the film more accurate IMO
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the tire scene makes me feel actually ill, i used it in a video once slowed down and nearly threw up afterwards but it has a clear purpose in the film and makes the film more accurate IMO
Same here, but I won't have it any other way. The violence reaches out to us, and we feel that we ourselves had been violated.
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Same here, but I won't have it any other way. The violence reaches out to us, and we feel that we ourselves had been violated.
This makes me think back to my first viewing, since I had made it a point to know as little as possible about the story beforehand. Not only was my heart throbbing with the love story and the beauty of these two men and the beauty of the land...but so many other emotions were brought out in such a raw way -- the shock of FNIT (shock that they were showing this in a "mainstream" movie, not shock for myself), the yucky-potential-danger from Aguirre, the crap Jack had to put up with from LD...and the sickening tire-iron scene. I felt put through a wringer, that's for sure. So real, so like life, a full range of circumstances and feelings.
For a long time, one of my least favorite scenes was Ennis bitching at Alma for going to work. It was the first moment that I didn't like him as a person -- or I mean, I sure wouldn't marry some jerk like that!
But as to the tire-iron scene, I really did think that was just Ennis's vision inside his head, his worst fear. I didn't think it was real.
Of course, since then, the entire story has taken on so much more meaning. And I totally agree that every moment was necessary. (Except I still wonder about the phone call Aguirre gets in the trailer when E and J are there -- I've never really gotten why they would bother with that.)
kathy
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Of course, since then, the entire story has taken on so much more meaning. And I totally agree that every moment was necessary. (Except I still wonder about the phone call Aguirre gets in the trailer when E and J are there -- I've never really gotten why they would bother with that.)
kathy
Uh, Kathy, maybe I'm wrong, but I think that they used that scene to show us that Ennis and Jack had even then, so soon, some interest in each other, or at least, curiosity. Ang used that very moment when Aguirre picks the phone, to let us see the shy way Ennis looks at Jack when he's looking at the floor, and how later it's Jack who looks at Ennis. And I think those little glances are important and have their meaning because they only look at each other when the other one is not looking...
When I saw this scene for the first time I was like "oh....they are LOOKING AT EACH OTHER"; well, I know that everyone would do the same in that situation, but for me it had a deeper meaning. I like that moment. Outside the trailer they only exchanged glances and here inside they are keep doing it, like trying to know who was the other boy just only with the eyes.
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This makes me think back to my first viewing, since I had made it a point to know as little as possible about the story beforehand. Not only was my heart throbbing with the love story and the beauty of these two men and the beauty of the land...but so many other emotions were brought out in such a raw way -- the shock of FNIT (shock that they were showing this in a "mainstream" movie, not shock for myself), the yucky-potential-danger from Aguirre, the crap Jack had to put up with from LD...and the sickening tire-iron scene. I felt put through a wringer, that's for sure. So real, so like life, a full range of circumstances and feelings.
For a long time, one of my least favorite scenes was Ennis bitching at Alma for going to work. It was the first moment that I didn't like him as a person -- or I mean, I sure wouldn't marry some jerk like that!
I also sympathized with Alma in this scene -- perversely, I sympathized with her here more than during the reunion scene -- perhaps because Alma's distress is balanced by the happiness of Jack and Ennis.
But as to the tire-iron scene, I really did think that was just Ennis's vision inside his head, his worst fear. I didn't think it was real.
Of course, since then, the entire story has taken on so much more meaning. And I totally agree that every moment was necessary. (Except I still wonder about the phone call Aguirre gets in the trailer when E and J are there -- I've never really gotten why they would bother with that.)
kathy
Well, for the record, I also take the tire-iron scene to be real. It was a necessary scene -- but painful to watch nonetheless.
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Uh, Kathy, maybe I'm wrong, but I think that they used that scene to show us that Ennis and Jack had even then, so soon, some interest in each other, or at least, curiosity. Ang used that very moment when Aguirre picks the phone, to let us see the shy way Ennis looks at Jack when he's looking at the floor, and how later it's Jack who looks at Ennis. And I think those little glances are important and have their meaning because they only look at each other when the other one is not looking...
When I saw this scene for the first time I was like "oh....they are LOOKING AT EACH OTHER"; well, I know that everyone would do the same in that situation, but for me it had a deeper meaning. I like that moment. Outside the trailer they only exchanged glances and here inside they are keep doing it, like trying to know who was the other boy just only with the eyes.
And I'd also take this scene as an opportunity to show how crotchety Aguirre was. It was pretty clear from the get go that he didn't have any respect for them. Doesn't look like he made a habit of being very cordial to anyone else either.
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Uh, Kathy, maybe I'm wrong, but I think that they used that scene to show us that Ennis and Jack had even then, so soon, some interest in each other, or at least, curiosity. Ang used that very moment when Aguirre picks the phone, to let us see the shy way Ennis looks at Jack when he's looking at the floor, and how later it's Jack who looks at Ennis. And I think those little glances are important and have their meaning because they only look at each other when the other one is not looking...
When I saw this scene for the first time I was like "oh....they are LOOKING AT EACH OTHER"; well, I know that everyone would do the same in that situation, but for me it had a deeper meaning. I like that moment. Outside the trailer they only exchanged glances and here inside they are keep doing it, like trying to know who was the other boy just only with the eyes.
That makes perfect sense, BT. I was thinking more of the phone call in itself, instead of as a break for us to see Ennis and Jack's interaction. I LOVED that, too, the sneaking glances at each other. <^(
kathy
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And I'd also take this scene as an opportunity to show how crotchety Aguirre was. It was pretty clear from the get go that he didn't have any respect for them. Doesn't look like he made a habit of being very cordial to anyone else either.
Good point!
kathy
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Hope there's not a thread for this allready.
What is the most toughest scene in BBM? I think that even the happy ones are hard to look at, now, when you will know what will happen.
This is the toughest for me: :\'( :\'(
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fapu.mabul.org%2Fup%2Fapu%2F2008%2F08%2F06%2Fimg-1129460ncdd.jpg&hash=a777c04e4e41c14865a10a7f510055cb41fd8b06) (http://mabul.org/)
I have no words to describe how I feel, every time when I see or look at that particular scene. It breaks my heart everytime. :\'(
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Yes, that scene is very hard to watch :\'(.
I'm not sure but somehow I feel the dozy embrace flashback is even harder to me. When old Jack watches after Ennis's disappearing trailer and then the director cuts to their summer in Brokeback, the dozy embrace and Jack's face - both young Jack's and the older Jack's yearning look.
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Yes, that scene is very hard to watch :\'(.
I'm not sure but somehow I feel the dozy embrace flashback is even harder to me. When old Jack watches after Ennis's disappearing trailer and then the director cuts to their summer in Brokeback, the dozy embrace and Jack's face - both young Jack's and the older Jack's yearning look.
I know, what you mean. That scene is so hard too. I was watching BBM yesterday, it's been awhile since the last view, and I cried like a baby almost in every scene.
Another one is this: (https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fapu.mabul.org%2Fup%2Fapu%2F2008%2F08%2F06%2Fimg-1348231krol.jpg&hash=c44eca21dd64650bc508b1627d8e4d64c0ca11db) (http://mabul.org/)
We see Ennis, in pain, maybe feeling sorry, for what he has said to Jack, putting all hope down, and we see Jack, sad, but still calm and comforting Ennis. :\'(
*let be, let be*
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Yes these scenes are hard and yet so beautiful. The more I watch and concentrate on Ennis' character I realize his heart and soul were pretty much always Jack's from the get go. So many things I'm picking up on, his looks, body language, things he's says. Most are subtle but so telling from early on. He had it bad for Jack, this thing, he didn't recognize was love.
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We already have a related topic, I merged yours with this existing one Twisted :)
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I know, what you mean. That scene is so hard too. I was watching BBM yesterday, it's been awhile since the last view, and I cried like a baby almost in every scene.
Another one is this: (https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fapu.mabul.org%2Fup%2Fapu%2F2008%2F08%2F06%2Fimg-1348231krol.jpg&hash=c44eca21dd64650bc508b1627d8e4d64c0ca11db) (http://mabul.org/)
We see Ennis, in pain, maybe feeling sorry, for what he has said to Jack, putting all hope down, and we see Jack, sad, but still calm and comforting Ennis. :\'(
*let be, let be*
This one is usually a good starter for me :\'(
This one kills me!
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi63.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh137%2Fchameau_7%2FJack%2Fbrokeback_770.jpg&hash=d7ae2bb4fc4ad208d21ab2033c14b4609c2bd3e0)
"Truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it "
This is the closest Jack ever came for sayin' "I Love You" :-\\
:\'( :\'( :\'(
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This one kills me!
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi63.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh137%2Fchameau_7%2FJack%2Fbrokeback_770.jpg&hash=d7ae2bb4fc4ad208d21ab2033c14b4609c2bd3e0)
"Truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it "
This is the closest Jack ever came for sayin' "I Love You" :-\\
:\'( :\'( :\'(
The saddest part of this scene for me is the silence from Ennis that follows. :( :\'( :(
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I hear ya, this is even more sadder :\'(
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The saddest part of this scene for me is the silence from Ennis that follows. :( :\'( :(
Yes this is a heart breaker, Jack's words and Ennis just putting his head down, like he really wanted to respond but didn't know how. I just hope later he gave Jack some good lovin their last night together. That scene in the tent where they are snuggled up in the sleeping bag made me believe he did. :^^)
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Hope there's not a thread for this allready.
What is the most toughest scene in BBM? I think that even the happy ones are hard to look at, now, when you will know what will happen.
This is the toughest for me: :\'( :\'(
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fapu.mabul.org%2Fup%2Fapu%2F2008%2F08%2F06%2Fimg-1129460ncdd.jpg&hash=a777c04e4e41c14865a10a7f510055cb41fd8b06) (http://mabul.org/)
I have no words to describe how I feel, every time when I see or look at that particular scene. It breaks my heart everytime. :\'(
Especially since it is juxtaposed with the ecstatic "Dozy Embrace"...
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Yes this is a heart breaker, Jack's words and Ennis just putting his head down, like he really wanted to respond but didn't know how. I just hope later he gave Jack some good lovin their last night together. That scene in the tent where they are snuggled up in the sleeping bag made me believe he did. :^^)
Yes, someone had said that perhaps that scene showing them asleep together was supposed to encapsulate Ennis's response. If viewed this way, then it is not so hard a scene to look at.
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This one is usually a good starter for me :\'(
This one kills me!
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi63.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh137%2Fchameau_7%2FJack%2Fbrokeback_770.jpg&hash=d7ae2bb4fc4ad208d21ab2033c14b4609c2bd3e0)
"Truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it "
This is the closest Jack ever came for sayin' "I Love You" :-\\
:\'( :\'( :\'(
I agree with u...its the closest ...their facial expression has so much pain...
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Every scene in the movie is important and certain scenes r heart breaking but they r needed to complete the story..
i feel the scene when Jack comes to meet Ennis by a 14 hour drive and Ennis tells him that he cant spend time with him..Jacks heart is broken and he cries in the car..I really feel so bad..am like Ennis could have met him atleast for sometime and then told him to go..that was no not right on the part of Ennis...
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Every scene in the movie is important and certain scenes r heart breaking but they r needed to complete the story..
i feel the scene when Jack comes to meet Ennis by a 14 hour drive and Ennis tells him that he cant spend time with him..Jacks heart is broken and he cries in the car..I really feel so bad..am like Ennis could have met him atleast for sometime and then told him to go..that was no not right on the part of Ennis...
Yes,I said something similar at the top of this page; that I didn't dislike any scene because each one of them had a purpose,no matter how hard they were.
As regards to the scene you describe,it's painful because one can see the lack of communication they really have.Ennis hardly groans a shy "Jack..." when his friend is leaving,but neither he insists on it,nor Jack is ready to listening to the phrase's continuation.Perhaps if one of them has spoken or listened then,things would have been different fro that moment onwards... :(
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Yes,I said something similar at the top of this page; that I didn't dislike any scene because each one of them had a purpose,no matter how hard they were.
As regards to the scene you describe,it's painful because one can see the lack of communication they really have.Ennis hardly groans a shy "Jack..." when his friend is leaving,but neither he insists on it,nor Jack is ready to listening to the phrase's continuation.Perhaps if one of them has spoken or listened then,things would have been different fro that moment onwards... :(
One of my least favorite scenes, also. And you're so right, mpj, that Jack did not have to just turn and leave. He didn't push it at all, or even just wait and let Ennis come to a different decision...and indeed, things could have been quite different after that.
kathy
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Yes,I said something similar at the top of this page; that I didn't dislike any scene because each one of them had a purpose,no matter how hard they were.
As regards to the scene you describe,it's painful because one can see the lack of communication they really have.Ennis hardly groans a shy "Jack..." when his friend is leaving,but neither he insists on it,nor Jack is ready to listening to the phrase's continuation.Perhaps if one of them has spoken or listened then,things would have been different fro that moment onwards... :(
One of my least favorite scenes, also. And you're so right, mpj, that Jack did not have to just turn and leave. He didn't push it at all, or even just wait and let Ennis come to a different decision...and indeed, things could have been quite different after that.
kathy
very true...Jack should have told Ennis that comon i have come so far to meet u and u can just give me some time..he wanted so much to tell this to Ennis....Jack is shaking his tongue and his eyes is looking right at Ennis for answers for his questions but Jack dint say a word...if he just had to say anything i am sure Ennis would have given him some time...here I feel some verbal communication was needed
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I wonder myself if things would have been different in that scene had Jack been a bit more insistent. But I guess he never was that way -- never wanting to push Ennis against his will. Pehaps he should have...
Yes, this is one of the most painful scenes to watch...
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As to the divorce scene, everytime I watch it I wish it would have been different, that an offer to have Jack stay would have been extended or that Jack would've asked/said something. But IMO, there are a lot of dynamics in play here- Jack is greeted with a smile and hug and introduced to the girls, it's after he mentions asking around Riverton that Ennis's demeanor shifts and then the white truck passes by. I think, for Jack's part, he was hit with a lot of things then- feeling foolish for riding up there on a hope and a prayer, then in seeing the white truck realizing that it wasn't Alma or obligations, but rather fear/paranoia that was the albatross. I don't think he could've said anything without breaking down. For as painful as this scene is, it's a pivotal moment of truth, at least to me.
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As to the divorce scene, everytime I watch it I wish it would have been different, that an offer to have Jack stay would have been extended or that Jack would've asked/said something. But IMO, there are a lot of dynamics in play here- Jack is greeted with a smile and hug and introduced to the girls, it's after he mentions asking around Riverton that Ennis's demeanor shifts and then the white truck passes by. I think, for Jack's part, he was hit with a lot of things then- feeling foolish for riding up there on a hope and a prayer, then in seeing the white truck realizing that it wasn't Alma or obligations, but rather fear/paranoia that was the albatross. I don't think he could've said anything without breaking down. For as painful as this scene is, it's a pivotal moment of truth, at least to me.
It was certainly a great missed opportunity. It was perhaps a decisive moment in the story.
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It was certainly a great missed opportunity. It was perhaps a decisive moment in the story.
Yes,in this sense of deciding something about their present and future,I think this is one of the decisive moments in the story.The other,for me,is when they come down from the mountain and nothing is said about what to do after that moment.Everything is said with the eyes,but not with the mouth... :(
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Wonder what Ennis would've said if the girls weren't there. I guess he'd have thought of some other excuse.
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I wonder myself if things would have been different in that scene had Jack been a bit more insistent. But I guess he never was that way -- never wanting to push Ennis against his will. Pehaps he should have...
Yes, this is one of the most painful scenes to watch...
he dint have to push him or made him feel horrible..Jack could have just told him how he feels..atleast that would made things better and Ennis would realize that and meet him some time soon...
My heart goes out to Jack :(
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Yes,in this sense of deciding something about their present and future,I think this is one of the decisive moments in the story.The other,for me,is when they come down from the mountain and nothing is said about what to do after that moment.Everything is said with the eyes,but not with the mouth... :(
This and the farewell scene after it are significant because they could have fixed things right there -- with Ennis perhaps agreeing to live in closer proximity with Jack -- if not living together. Had Ennis changed his mind about marriage with Alma, perhaps things would have been very different...
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Wonder what Ennis would've said if the girls weren't there. I guess he'd have thought of some other excuse.
Most likely. It wasn;t the girls, to be sure...
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he dint have to push him or made him feel horrible..Jack could have just told him how he feels..atleast that would made things better and Ennis would realize that and meet him some time soon...
My heart goes out to Jack :(
Yes, had they not allowed 4 years of silence to intervene between them, who knows what could have happened?
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Yeah...if I had driven 14 hrs. one way, there's no way I would just get in the truck and turn around and go straight back!
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Yes, had they not allowed 4 years of silence to intervene between them, who knows what could have happened?
it would have been a completey different story then....
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Yeah...if I had driven 14 hrs. one way, there's no way I would just get in the truck and turn around and go straight back!
I swear...same here... I can relate to what u say as I speak my heart out..however,,that silence between Ennis and Jack created a slight distance between them :\'(
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I think the physical distance bred miscommunication. And I am not sure if in the scene in question, Ennis fully grasped the significance of the 14 hr drive. Bridging that enormous physical distance should have told him something -- but he mistook it for something purely logistical, and not symbolically -- in terms of communicating on a totally different plane.
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I don't like specially any scene,like this of the 14 hours driving,that shows a real lack of verbal communication between them.Every time their future together could have been solved and was not makes me sad and angry at the same time... :\'( ^*)
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I love your little "ticked off guy"...brings a much needed smile. How could Ennis not think about the 14 hr. drive? It seems crazy to me...14 LONG hrs.! And to see each other for what...5 mtes.?
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I think Jack was just too excited to try to write to him about his coming up for a visit -- it definitely caught Ennis by surprise. I would even think that Jack hopped into his truck the minute he read the postcard from Ennis... Well, perhaps Jack knew that Ennis had moved, and that he would not be reachable from his old address in any case...
I somehow think that Ennis had no conception of the distance Jack had to travel -- having never traveled such distances himself. The visit to LF must have been a real journey for him, given that he stayed pretty much where he was.
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I think that this scene dislikes not only for seeing Jack so disappointed and sad,but because it's a proof of both selfishness.Yes,Jack was very generous by driving so many hours for being with the man he loved; that's a generosity's act,because he didn't think in himself,in the troubles and tiredness that this could bring to him...But,at the same time,he was shellfish because he took for granted that Ennis would run to him immediately,no matter his situation,no matter even if this was Jack's wishes,not necessarily Ennis in that moment.
And Ennis...well,Ennis was shellfish and,IMO,stupid,because he didn't realise the effort his friend had done to be with him; no matter what they decided after,at least Jack had the right of spending some time by his side.And I bet he didn't either think about what the news meant for Jack and that he was,somehow,obliged to look for a solution,and think a little more in Jack and not so much in himself and his fears.JMHO.
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Right, MPJ. Jack just rode up there on his own when all Ennis did was send him a postcard (in the movie- in the SS it was a phone call) to give him the news and Jack made his own assumptions. Both are to "blame" for this. I can see Jack's excitement thinking "finally!" because in his mind, I guess, he thought Alma was the true reason they couldn't be together and no marriage= no problem. He knew about Rich and Earl so does that mean he didn't take that story to heart or would rather just roll the dice and be with Ennis no matter what could happen?
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Right, MPJ. Jack just rode up there on his own when all Ennis did was send him a postcard (in the movie- in the SS it was a phone call) to give him the news and Jack made his own assumptions. Both are to "blame" for this. I can see Jack's excitement thinking "finally!" because in his mind, I guess, he thought Alma was the true reason they couldn't be together and no marriage= no problem. He knew about Rich and Earl so does that mean he didn't take that story to heart or would rather just roll the dice and be with Ennis no matter what could happen?
Yes,I agree in that Jack thought that the main reason of avoiding this "sweet life together" was Ennis marriage;in a little simplistic way,no more marriage,no more problems to take Alma's place...He didn't realise that Rich and Earl's story had got a deepest impact in his friend's life than he could imagine.Or he did,but-as every person in love-thought that by seeing him every day giving him all his love and support would be enough as to forget all the past shocks.JMHO.
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I think that this scene dislikes not only for seeing Jack so disappointed and sad,but because it's a proof of both selfishness.Yes,Jack was very generous by driving so many hours for being with the man he loved; that's a generosity's act,because he didn't think in himself,in the troubles and tiredness that this could bring to him...But,at the same time,he was shellfish because he took for granted that Ennis would run to him immediately,no matter his situation,no matter even if this was Jack's wishes,not necessarily Ennis in that moment.
And Ennis...well,Ennis was shellfish and,IMO,stupid,because he didn't realise the effort his friend had done to be with him; no matter what they decided after,at least Jack had the right of spending some time by his side.And I bet he didn't either think about what the news meant for Jack and that he was,somehow,obliged to look for a solution,and think a little more in Jack and not so much in himself and his fears.JMHO.
Right, MPJ. Jack just rode up there on his own when all Ennis did was send him a postcard (in the movie- in the SS it was a phone call) to give him the news and Jack made his own assumptions. Both are to "blame" for this. I can see Jack's excitement thinking "finally!" because in his mind, I guess, he thought Alma was the true reason they couldn't be together and no marriage= no problem. He knew about Rich and Earl so does that mean he didn't take that story to heart or would rather just roll the dice and be with Ennis no matter what could happen?
Well, I don't exactly look at Jack's assumption as selfish. For one, he was led to believe that this was the impediment that barred them from the dream of a sweet life -- if we recall their conversation up the mountains after the reunion scene. Perhaps we may call him slightly presumptuous (which I really don't buy, also) rather than selfish. If there was a fault in what he did, it was perhaps not being more insistent. Perhaps -- as others had said -- he should have been more confrontational at that point.... Who knows if things would have really changed at that point?
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Well, I don't exactly look at Jack's assumption as selfish. For one, he was led to believe that this was the impediment that barred them from the dream of a sweet life -- if we recall their conversation up the mountains after the reunion scene. Perhaps we may call him slightly presumptuous (which I really don't buy, also) rather than selfish. If there was a fault in what he did, it was perhaps not being more insistent. Perhaps -- as others had said -- he should have been more confrontational at that point.... Who knows if things would have really changed at that point?
Totally agree with this, Thomas. ^f^
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I feel Ennis did ignore Jack for a while ..he dint realize that jack has come such a long way to be with him and all he did was like say that he cant be with him...I feel dam bad for jack. the look in his eye when ennis was telling him that he cant spend time with him....Jack was not selfish..infact so many instances he inisted on them being together and all but Ennis fears came in the way,,jack did let it be,,,he never forced him or pressurized him...ya he did have regret in his heart and when they fought in the climax it all came out....
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Thanks Tammy!
smartestsonia, I suspect that Ennis was simply confused and mentally unprepared for Jack's unexpected visit. Perhaps this would have been different had Jack had somehow been able to give Ennis advance notice (without Ennis dissuading him, of course.)
Another thing is that Ennis looked unusually paranoid right after the divorce -- I won't blame him: perhaps he even suspected that Alma knew.
Of course, this doesn't change the fact that iot was all quite horrible for Jack. We don't feel less sorry for him.
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Well, I don't exactly look at Jack's assumption as selfish. For one, he was led to believe that this was the impediment that barred them from the dream of a sweet life -- if we recall their conversation up the mountains after the reunion scene. Perhaps we may call him slightly presumptuous (which I really don't buy, also) rather than selfish. If there was a fault in what he did, it was perhaps not being more insistent. Perhaps -- as others had said -- he should have been more confrontational at that point.... Who knows if things would have really changed at that point?
I do think Jack acted on pure excitement when he received word of the divorce. how could he not? That was like finding out you just won the lottery. And surely they were due to meet at some point, so why didn't Ennis wait until then? News out of the blue like that would have signaled change, so I can totally see Jack thinking it was "code" for "the sweet life is here." But that is also not Ennis's fault either, he was just reaching out to his friend. I don't know if things would have changed if he had been more confrontational then. I mean if he had pitched a fit right there, that would have been trouble because the girls were there. But even if he quietly pulled Ennis aside and made a comment such as "I'm going to be around. Can you see me after you drop the girls off?" I don't think that would have worked for him either. There was just too much revealed there with not a word really being said. How do you fight ghosts? Selfish is a harsh word but at times love is selfish though not always in a bad way, if that makes sense.
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I do think Jack acted on pure excitement when he received word of the divorce. how could he not? That was like finding out you just won the lottery. And surely they were due to meet at some point, so why didn't Ennis wait until then? News out of the blue like that would have signaled change, so I can totally see Jack thinking it was "code" for "the sweet life is here." But that is also not Ennis's fault either, he was just reaching out to his friend. I don't know if things would have changed if he had been more confrontational then. I mean if he had pitched a fit right there, that would have been trouble because the girls were there. But even if he quietly pulled Ennis aside and made a comment such as "I'm going to be around. Can you see me after you drop the girls off?" I don't think that would have worked for him either. There was just too much revealed there with not a word really being said. How do you fight ghosts? Selfish is a harsh word but at times love is selfish though not always in a bad way, if that makes sense.
It makes sense. But I would regard this form of selfishness as "blindness".
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I agree :)
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I agree with your words,Michelle,specially when you say:Selfish is a harsh word but at times love is selfish though not always in a bad way, if that makes sense. Maybe I used a too harsh word,I do admit, but it's true that love makes us selfish more times than it would be advisable.The same wish for having and being with the loved person avoid us to realize if we're hurting them or,at least,disturbing them somehow...And that's what I meant by saying that Jack was kind of selfish because he put his enormous wish of living with Ennis far in front of his lover's needs,his duties with his girls,his own and private "rhythm" in doing changes in his life.I don't know it this makes sense,but I hope having explained myself a little well...
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You explained it well MPJ. That's how I took it initially- the selfishness didn't stem from malice but from love. When we love someone sometimes we are selfish and even greedy in wanting more time with them. That's another not so nice word but it's not a bad intent.
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Thanks Tammy!
smartestsonia, I suspect that Ennis was simply confused and mentally unprepared for Jack's unexpected visit. Perhaps this would have been different had Jack had somehow been able to give Ennis advance notice (without Ennis dissuading him, of course.)
Another thing is that Ennis looked unusually paranoid right after the divorce -- I won't blame him: perhaps he even suspected that Alma knew.
Of course, this doesn't change the fact that iot was all quite horrible for Jack. We don't feel less sorry for him.
I agree thomas, that he was suspecting the alma knew and all....Ennis was not confused..what I meant was that he just wanted to be away from him abit as he has his kids around....so he was caught up in this mess and so he kept Jack away....all this made things bad for Jack and hampered their relation in the latter years...
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Perhaps it was the presence of the children that made Ennis unusually nervous?
Then again, whne the truck drives by, his attention is momentarily diverted, even as he talks to Jack. Somemembers have suggested that he might have thought this to be Alma driving past, and the possibility of him seeing Jack disturbed him.
Whether or not this is true, it highlights Ennis's intense paranio at that moment -- casued perhaps by the presence of others who may "read" him only too well.
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Perhaps it was the presence of the children that made Ennis unusually nervous?
Then again, whne the truck drives by, his attention is momentarily diverted, even as he talks to Jack. Somemembers have suggested that he might have thought this to be Alma driving past, and the possibility of him seeing Jack disturbed him.
Whether or not this is true, it highlights Ennis's intense paranio at that moment -- casued perhaps by the presence of others who may "read" him only too well.
I think the presence of whoever could in this situation and moment make Ennis unusually nervous.The example is this,how he's looking to the truck passing by the road,as if "everybody knows it"-his own words some years after...-.May the driver be Alma or not,may the girls suspect something or not,the question is that Ennis felt then "naked" in front of the society somehow,as if he was carrying a label in his head saying "You're queer".And he was not prepared to allow this to himself.
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I think the presence of whoever could in this situation and moment make Ennis unusually nervous.The example is this,how he's looking to the truck passing by the road,as if "everybody knows it"-his own words some years after...-.May the driver be Alma or not,may the girls suspect something or not,the question is that Ennis felt then "naked" in front of the society somehow,as if he was carrying a label in his head saying "You're queer".And he was not prepared to allow this to himself.
this is so true...now i can understand better as to why Ennis did tell jack to go away...Honestly we all know the reality as to why they behaved the way they did..we all wish that things could have been better or they would be more receptive to make the situation better,,but there were too many fears and issues to be faced which prohibited them from being more open and expressive
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Definitely true -- the unknown driver could very well stand for society at large -- and a nosey, disapproving society, at that.
Over the years, I have also come to dislike that particular detail of the truck driving by because for some reason, it vaguely reminds me of the opening scene of the truck bringing Ennis to Signal, and the later scene when Ennis drives home from LF...
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Definitely true -- the unknown driver could very well stand for society at large -- and a nosey, disapproving society, at that.
Over the years, I have also come to dislike that particular detail of the truck driving by because for some reason, it vaguely reminds me of the opening scene of the truck bringing Ennis to Signal, and the later scene when Ennis drives home from LF...
ya his kids were around so he wanted to be careful...the truck driver could be watching him..see when one holds a secret in his heart and he wants to hide it from all somewhere the fear is all the time or u can say unconsciously within him of being caught or in Ennis case being killed..so the fear made him feel that everyone is watching him and judging him....both go through so much pain....wish they were born in our times and wish no Ennis and Jack today have to suffer this way...
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But don't you find it ironic that Ennis was afraid of being found out on one hand and on the other hand, being completely reckless?
I find these violent swings fascinating -- where he can be so cautious and reckless one after the other. I don't blame Jack for being confused, especially during the post divorce fiasco. Mixed signals certainly breeds confusion and hurt -- as much as it shows weakness and confusion from within.
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But don't you find it ironic that Ennis was afraid of being found out on one hand and on the other hand, being completely reckless?
I find these violent swings fascinating -- where he can be so cautious and reckless one after the other. I don't blame Jack for being confused, especially during the post divorce fiasco. Mixed signals certainly breeds confusion and hurt -- as much as it shows weakness and confusion from within.
Yes,you're right;it's somehow ironic...But BBM is full with ironies(sometimes cruel ironies)and full with contradictions(sometimes cruel contradictions too)on the part of Ennis.I think that in scenes like this is when one can notice and separate completely his reactions,divided between his fears and bounds to society's rules and his feelings and wishes for Jack.For this he's both cautious and reckless,I think...
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Perhaps it was the presence of the children that made Ennis unusually nervous?
Then again, whne the truck drives by, his attention is momentarily diverted, even as he talks to Jack. Somemembers have suggested that he might have thought this to be Alma driving past, and the possibility of him seeing Jack disturbed him.
Whether or not this is true, it highlights Ennis's intense paranio at that moment -- casued perhaps by the presence of others who may "read" him only too well.
I never thought it was Alma. But his whole demeanor shifts after Jack says he had to ask about 10 different people in Riverton where Ennis lived. And then the truck drives by. Ennis may be paranoid in general or not quite sure if Alma said anything to anyone (the woman scorned thing) and here comes Jack asking where Ennis is making him totally unsettled in that the tire irons were coming for them.
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But don't you find it ironic that Ennis was afraid of being found out on one hand and on the other hand, being completely reckless?
I find these violent swings fascinating -- where he can be so cautious and reckless one after the other. I don't blame Jack for being confused, especially during the post divorce fiasco. Mixed signals certainly breeds confusion and hurt -- as much as it shows weakness and confusion from within.
I agree ...it is ironic...Ennis lived in so much fear ..however, he felt free and could be himself in the SNIT as no one was around...he could just be himself....
that was great...but then the fears of the society, Alma.,,what his kids will think was too much in him to act normal and free...
My heart goes out to jack as he was so miserable after that,...actually both fought their miseries alone rather than together..thats what hurts the most
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Thanks friends.
Actually, Jack asking aroung for Ennis's whereabouts must have bothered Ennis and contributed to his paranoia. Plus, I suspect that didn't really want to be seen with Jack -- consider that everytime they met after the reunion, they agreed to meet up in the mountains, and not in town or at Ennis's home.
And yes: I think that both fought their miseries alone rather than together. For Jack in this scene, he just didn't want Ennis to see him so vulnerable. Perhaps she should have allowed him to see just how vulnerable he was.
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My heart goes out to jack as he was so miserable after that,...actually both fought their miseries alone rather than together..thats what hurts the most
That's so sad..but it's true. :\'( :\'(
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I agree ...it is ironic...Ennis lived in so much fear ..however, he felt free and could be himself in the SNIT as no one was around...he could just be himself....
that was great...but then the fears of the society, Alma.,,what his kids will think was too much in him to act normal and free...
My heart goes out to jack as he was so miserable after that,...actually both fought their miseries alone rather than together..thats what hurts the most
That's so sad..but it's true. :\'( :\'(
Yes,it's sad,but true,Tammy...And this has a great rapport with this lack of communication we've talked about so many times.In this sense,they aren't a real couple,because there will be trust enough between them-too many,fears,too many suspicions,too many denials...-as to fight these miseries together,as the result would have had influence in both.It's such a pity¡ :\'(
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Yes,it's sad,but true,Tammy...And this has a great rapport with this lack of communication we've talked about so many times.In this sense,they aren't a real couple,because there will be trust enough between them-too many,fears,too many suspicions,too many denials...-as to fight these miseries together,as the result would have had influence in both.It's such a pity¡ :\'(
they were a couple with regards to the love they share and all the unspoken care and concern..however,,as u say what they lacked is communication...Communication really helps ya when spoken the right things at the right time...alas, that dint happen in their case and so they were left with so many regrets
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It is pretty much true that the most depressing scenes in BBM are when we see this lack of communication operative. Being viewers who are made to see both their struggles, it moves us even more, and gives us a sense of wanting to intervene in the middle of the scenes -- pehrpa knocking their heads together in frustration...
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It is pretty much true that the most depressing scenes in BBM are when we see this lack of communication operative. Being viewers who are made to see both their struggles, it moves us even more, and gives us a sense of wanting to intervene in the middle of the scenes -- pehrpa knocking their heads together in frustration...
ya exactly.....as audience we feel so many amendments and changes ought to be made in the way they handled a situation..how they should have been more reciprocative and more expressive especially when their relationship matured and all....ya we all wish to intervene and get into their minds and tell them how to behave or what to say..however, thats how they were and we gota accept that ....its sad that some people make decisons and we wish they dint do so....thsi movie teaches one that when the right things r not expressed or attempts r not made how it can hamper the relation or make things tense...
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The fact that we want to intervene and make changes with some of the scene we "dislike" is testament to the power of the story. That we would so choose to be deus ex machina and alter the course of their fates should give us pause: it blurs the boundary between Art and reality. No better compliment can we give.
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You put it beautifully tpe. That is the power of the story and the way it touches our hearts. :c)
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Thanks Barb. In this light, I sometimes ask myself whether I really dislike any scene in BBM, no matter how difficult it is...
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Yes, some of them hurt me, but I can't truly say I 'dislike' them. I simply wish for the characters, not for the story, that they could be different. Sigh...I guess that means they did what they were meant to do.
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Well, there are people I dislike -- LD Newsome. But it's a "love to hate" thing. I totally dislike that scene in the bedroom with Lureen and the baby. But of course it's necessary, to show us Jack's place in that family. And then we get treated to the Thanksgiving scene and his giving the old man his due and claiming his own place. (And Bobby and his bowl of gruel is a little twerp. Poor thing, with those unhappy people.)
kathy
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the story is defintely powerful to leave a mark on so many minds...what we all feel now after giving so many comments on this website is the same as to how we felt when we had just watched the film...thats the true magnetic effect of the film and characters that draws us towards them....we do wish that the characters would be more expressive..this is mailny because we know how much each of them love each other and mean to each other....
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Thanks Barb. In this light, I sometimes ask myself whether I really dislike any scene in BBM, no matter how difficult it is...
im the same in this respect. take jacks death seen for instance it hurts me to the point i nearly throw up...but still...it adds to the over all power of the movie...in affect the uncomfortable and displeasing moments are jsut as important as the warm and loving moments.
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Couldn't have said it better Matt. We wouldn't be nearly as invested in the characters or the story if we hadn't felt their pain along with their joy.
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Love and pain they both bind us deeply. Well said Matt.
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im the same in this respect. take jacks death seen for instance it hurts me to the point i nearly throw up...but still...it adds to the over all power of the movie...in affect the uncomfortable and displeasing moments are jsut as important as the warm and loving moments.
Yes, that scene, no matter how unpleasant, drives home the pain of Jack's death -- whether or not is was by the tire-iron. It invests that moment with a powerful solemnity, espeically when it is shown in total silence.
As with Kathy, I agree that I dislike the elder Newsome, although his character is both unpleasant and comic/satiric. Certainly, he is a more complicated character than meets the eye...
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im the same in this respect. take jacks death seen for instance it hurts me to the point i nearly throw up...but still...it adds to the over all power of the movie...in affect the uncomfortable and displeasing moments are jsut as important as the warm and loving moments.
I tottally agree,Matt; well said¡ :clap: Uncomfortable and displeasing moments are just as important as the warm and loving ones because all of them show us Ennis and Jack the way they are; not two heroes,but two ordinary persons,slaves of their passions and their doubts.And all their sorrows and happiness bring to us this image of normality and serve to give a deep human touch to the story.
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im the same in this respect. take jacks death seen for instance it hurts me to the point i nearly throw up...but still...it adds to the over all power of the movie...in affect the uncomfortable and displeasing moments are jsut as important as the warm and loving moments.
Jacks death is a hauting scene..it gives me chills ..the impact ios that huge for me..I know that it adds the intensity of the film
Obviously we all wanted them to be together ..so Jacks death scene can be disturbing for everyone but that is what makes the story more impactful and memorable..we all remember the forbidden love and the pain of both as well as the solace Ennis has after Jack's death of their loved moments together
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When we see Jack getting killed, there is no background music or score and it's just silent and horrific... I could feel my heartbeat from my neck when I saw that for the first time.... :\'(
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When we see Jack getting killed, there is no background music or score and it's just silent and horrific... I could feel my heartbeat from my neck when I saw that for the first time.... :\'(
This is an excellent point -- there is NO sound whatsoever in the scene where Ennis sees Jack being murdered. One can only imagine the screams and the shouts of hatred. The silence is all the more brutal and depraved...
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This is an excellent point -- there is NO sound whatsoever in the scene where Ennis sees Jack being murdered. One can only imagine the screams and the shouts of hatred. The silence is all the more brutal and depraved...
:\'( Killing someone for no good reason what so ever... That scene is more brutal and horrifying than most horror movies!
Plus it was Jake Gyllenhaal getting killed and when I saw blood on his face I just died.
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:\'( Killing someone for no good reason what so ever... That scene is more brutal and horrifying than most horror movies!
Plus it was Jake Gyllenhaal getting killed and when I saw blood on his face I just died.
Yes, I think the starkness and silence of the entie scene made it more horrible to watch -- and it wasn't the blood and the battered face, per se, that made it horriific. What made it horrific was that it was perpetrated purely on hate and prejudice. And such hate still exists today, and thrives in many places around the world.
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Yes, I think the starkness and silence of the entie scene made it more horrible to watch -- and it wasn't the blood and the battered face, per se, that made it horriific. What made it horrific was that it was perpetrated purely on hate and prejudice. And such hate still exists today, and thrives in many places around the world.
And that is exactly the thing that makes humans no more civilised than animals. >:(
Its almost 2009 and STILL this discimination is still here... People need to have something BIG happen to them to wake them up.
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Yes, I think the starkness and silence of the entie scene made it more horrible to watch -- and it wasn't the blood and the battered face, per se, that made it horriific. What made it horrific was that it was perpetrated purely on hate and prejudice. And such hate still exists today, and thrives in many places around the world.
Well said, tpe, the horror of the scene was definitely more what had induced it, rather than the gore.
By far, the worst scene in the film for me. Makes me wince painfully and feel as if it were me being struck with the tire iron. Ugh, just a hateful, hateful thing.
Of course there is no shortage of other heartbreaking scenes in BBM, but the difference is there is no beauty in that stark, violent one.
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Yes, I think the starkness and silence of the entie scene made it more horrible to watch -- and it wasn't the blood and the battered face, per se, that made it horriific. What made it horrific was that it was perpetrated purely on hate and prejudice. And such hate still exists today, and thrives in many places around the world.
I only can but agree with you,Thomas; the "sound of silence" as a soundtrack remarks still more the horror of the scene.And yes,Laura,more than the gore because the murder we see is real,not some great quantity of hemoglobin to make us horrify or,better said,to be repulsed:; because there have been a lot of Jacks in the world who has been killed,if not by some tire irons,by intolerance,misunderstanding,prejudices,hate and stupidity...It's what really hurts to watch...
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I remember covering my mouth with fear and sadness when I saw that scene... :\'(
It was so sudden... I just cannot bear to watch the second half of BBM again...
%) Jack Twist...
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I remember covering my mouth with fear and sadness when I saw that scene... :\'(
It was so sudden... I just cannot bear to watch the second half of BBM again...
%) Jack Twist...
%) I love you so much, Jack Twist. :\'( :\'(
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And that is exactly the thing that makes humans no more civilised than animals. >:(
Its almost 2009 and STILL this discimination is still here... People need to have something BIG happen to them to wake them up.
That BIG thing has to be a change of heart. That is more difficult to achieve, unfortunately, for many people.
Why we dislike that scene is precisely because we see a hardening of hearts to their own common humanity. That scene reminds us of how capable we all are of dehumanizing ourselves and others.
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Well said, tpe, the horror of the scene was definitely more what had induced it, rather than the gore.
By far, the worst scene in the film for me. Makes me wince painfully and feel as if it were me being struck with the tire iron. Ugh, just a hateful, hateful thing.
Of course there is no shortage of other heartbreaking scenes in BBM, but the difference is there is no beauty in that stark, violent one.
Yes, I would think that that scene goes beyond "heartbreak". There is something akin to pure evil in that scene. There are aspects of it where we can find no salvation -- no redeeming quality that leaves intact our shared humanity. It is inhuman.
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I only can but agree with you,Thomas; the "sound of silence" as a soundtrack remarks still more the horror of the scene.And yes,Laura,more than the gore because the murder we see is real,not some great quantity of hemoglobin to make us horrify or,better said,to be repulsed:; because there have been a lot of Jacks in the world who has been killed,if not by some tire irons,by intolerance,misunderstanding,prejudices,hate and stupidity...It's what really hurts to watch...
I think the silence was most effective -- and certainly magnifies the horror that we feel. I somehow feel that this "device" was uswed elsewhere -- I know it is, but can't seem to recall an example right now. Especially in this scene, what horrifies and repulses us is the thought of what we cannot hear, and can only imagine. It digs up deep and most horrific visions.
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I think the silence was most effective -- and certainly magnifies the horror that we feel. I somehow feel that this "device" was uswed elsewhere -- I know it is, but can't seem to recall an example right now. Especially in this scene, what horrifies and repulses us is the thought of what we cannot hear, and can only imagine. It digs up deep and most horrific visions.
Yes,the same than it's more erotic what it's only suggested,and not fully shown,in horror topics what we imagine-in sound or in sight-is usually more effective than the mere gore.
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:clap: It's such an ART to make a movie make someone feel so many emotions... <^(
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Yes, I would think that that scene goes beyond "heartbreak". There is something akin to pure evil in that scene. There are aspects of it where we can find no salvation -- no redeeming quality that leaves intact our shared humanity. It is inhuman.
You gave me goosebumps and shivers with your definition of that scene. Yeah, Thomas, evil, no salvation, inhuman...Utterly beyond heartbreak, beyond cruel....My stomach aches when I think about it....Let's not think about it, please.
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You gave me goosebumps and shivers with your definition of that scene. Yeah, Thomas, evil, no salvation, inhuman...Utterly beyond heartbreak, beyond cruel....My stomach aches when I think about it....Let's not think about it, please.
This IS very scary once you think about it! :O
It was very evil and monsterous what they did to his isnt it... It was so quick but... just TOO much... Cold.
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Yes,the same than it's more erotic what it's only suggested,and not fully shown,in horror topics what we imagine-in sound or in sight-is usually more effective than the mere gore.
Again, this is spot on. Borrowing the phrase in architecture: "less is more".
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:clap: It's such an ART to make a movie make someone feel so many emotions... <^(
Even when they dig up our most feared and reviled emotions, we can appreciate the high Art of it all...
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You gave me goosebumps and shivers with your definition of that scene. Yeah, Thomas, evil, no salvation, inhuman...Utterly beyond heartbreak, beyond cruel....My stomach aches when I think about it....Let's not think about it, please.
So I guess "dislike" is not exactly the correct word to describe our feelings for this scene. "Revulsion" and "horror" are perhaps better words -- even as we feel compassion for the victim.
Thanks Tammy. :)
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This IS very scary once you think about it! :O
It was very evil and monsterous what they did to his isnt it... It was so quick but... just TOO much... Cold.
Indeed, you somehow project yourself into jack's situation in that scene. That makes you feel the horror even more.
I wonder if people sometimes projectb themselves into the mwechanic-murderers... I think such a projection occurs -- perhaps out of feelings of guilt? I think, for example, that this is precisely what Ennis was going through when he was thinking up this scene -- perhaps he felt in a way responsible for killing Jack. And that makes this all the more unpleasant.
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Again, this is spot on. Borrowing the phrase in architecture: "less is more".
Indeed, you somehow project yourself into jack's situation in that scene. That makes you feel the horror even more.
I wonder if people sometimes projectb themselves into the mwechanic-murderers... I think such a projection occurs -- perhaps out of feelings of guilt? I think, for example, that this is precisely what Ennis was going through when he was thinking up this scene -- perhaps he felt in a way responsible for killing Jack. And that makes this all the more unpleasant.
:t) Thomas¡. And,yes,I think we project or identified ourselves with Jack,because somehow we have been feeling his life troubles as ours too.So,somehow too,we feel his death a little as our own's.
I've always thought that Ennis felt a little responsible for Jack's murder;maybe for having let him alone,maybe for having put him in an emotional situation in which he doesn't mind what could happen with himself,for not talking about another kind of guilt; the which of having denied the possibility of this "sweet life together" for fear of what had finished by happenning.Of course,you're right; this possibility adds more sorrow to the scene.
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Thanks also MPJ. I think this element of empathy is why we love Jack and Ennis so as characters, and is also the reason why we dislike this scene so much.
I do think that Ennis himself felt that he was (at least in part) to blame for Jack's death. Whether or not Jack died the way Ennis imagined it, I think that this scene is juxtaposed in his mind (and ours) with the story of Earl and Rich. The guilty feelings can spring from either Ennis feeling that he did not do enough to keep Jack less careless, or can spring from his having driven Jack to a point of desperation. I think both cases are true...
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So I guess "dislike" is not exactly the correct word to describe our feelings for this scene. "Revulsion" and "horror" are perhaps better words -- even as we feel compassion for the victim.
Thanks Tammy. :)
Exactly Thomas...Honeslty, whichever scene we claim to dislike its not that we hate them or something but we feel so much hurt and we also know what it leads to..that pain is too much for us so we tend to dislike them or sometimes avoid them...
To me the scene of Jack's death is traumatizing..I cry so much and am left vulnerable and torn apart..It horrible to see that humans can be so cruel and can actually sleep at night when they have murdered someone...God, I just cant digest that but sadly its true....
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Jack's death, as imagined by Ennis, contrasts sharply with the feelings we get when watching thr Last Confrontation. INnthe latter, we are swept off our feet by the sheer emotion; with the former, it is only dead and silent horror.
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Jack's death, as imagined by Ennis, contrasts sharply with the feelings we get when watching thr Last Confrontation. INnthe latter, we are swept off our feet by the sheer emotion; with the former, it is only dead and silent horror.
Well said, Thomas. "Swept off our feet" in the confrontation scene, we were indeed. Painful, but full of strong feeling, love for sure. But the other scene, there is no involvement with our hearts or any kind of higher feeling. It's just horror, as you said.
kathy
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Yes, and the fact that we are4 told NOTHING about the details (who are the killers, and why) makes it even more remote -- as if we see something horrible but are powerless to stop it. This is the horror of horrors -- to see someone you love suffer and be powerless to help.
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Yes, and the fact that we are4 told NOTHING about the details (who are the killers, and why) makes it even more remote -- as if we see something horrible but are powerless to stop it. This is the horror of horrors -- to see someone you love suffer and be powerless to help.
Yes,the horror of horrors : feeling the impossibility of helping this person you love.And watching his/her suffering without knowing why,who and almost how this person is suffering...As we said before,if one adds to this the absence of voices or noises makes the ensemble more horrible to watch.
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Wow! Brokeback Mountain should be considered a Tragety/Drama/Romance/HORROR movie :P
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Wow! Brokeback Mountain should be considered a Tragety/Drama/Romance/HORROR movie :P
:8 Very funny,BM¡ Boy,as much as "an horror movie",perhaps not...well,if Aguirre appears by night around a corner and says "Huuuhhh",you can say it's... :8 No,speaking seriously,you know that the real horror is not the one we're used to( guts,blood,ripped bodies,and so on); gore is the easiest resource.But watching someone being murdered for being "different",victim of the hate and intolerance...that's a real horror,and,for me,it scares me more than a thousand Freddy Kruegers¡(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Filliweb.com%2Ffa%2Fi%2Fsmiles%2Faffraid.gif&hash=f67e54fc80e605d7435c6486b980516d23c33b21)
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:8 Very funny,BM¡ Boy,as much as "an horror movie",perhaps not...well,if Aguirre appears by night around a corner and says "Huuuhhh",you can say it's... :8 No,speaking seriously,you know that the real horror is not the one we're used to( guts,blood,ripped bodies,and so on); gore is the easiest resource.But watching someone being murdered for being "different",victim of the hate and intolerance...that's a real horror,and,for me,it scares me more than a thousand Freddy Kruegers¡(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Filliweb.com%2Ffa%2Fi%2Fsmiles%2Faffraid.gif&hash=f67e54fc80e605d7435c6486b980516d23c33b21)
:8 It scared me more than The Grudge! (t)
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:8 Very funny,BM¡ Boy,as much as "an horror movie",perhaps not...well,if Aguirre appears by night around a corner and says "Huuuhhh",you can say it's... :8 No,speaking seriously,you know that the real horror is not the one we're used to( guts,blood,ripped bodies,and so on); gore is the easiest resource.But watching someone being murdered for being "different",victim of the hate and intolerance...that's a real horror,and,for me,it scares me more than a thousand Freddy Kruegers¡(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Filliweb.com%2Ffa%2Fi%2Fsmiles%2Faffraid.gif&hash=f67e54fc80e605d7435c6486b980516d23c33b21)
I swear MPJ..the horror of seeing the extent of cruelty that human race can possess ..it freaks us out and we r left so horrifed when we see that being different is such a punishment...Its a shame to mankind for even thinking so..it shows how low men can fall so that no one challenges and opposes their stereotypes and prejudices...
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I swear MPJ..the horror of seeing the extent of cruelty that human race can possess ..it freaks us out and we r left so horrifed when we see that being different is such a punishment...Its a shame to mankind for even thinking so..it shows how low men can fall so that no one challenges and opposes their stereotypes and prejudices...
Completely agree,Cleo.And still more because this is a kind of horror we can find in each corner,in persons just like us.Not in some weird monsters that somone has created to make us have shivers in our spine...These other monsters are REAL. :-\\
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Yes,the horror of horrors : feeling the impossibility of helping this person you love.And watching his/her suffering without knowing why,who and almost how this person is suffering...As we said before,if one adds to this the absence of voices or noises makes the ensemble more horrible to watch.
This is I think precisely why many of here dislike this scene, even though it is not explicitly too gorey or revolting. It is handled with such subtlety and understatement that one does not even know from where the revulsion emanates...
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Wow! Brokeback Mountain should be considered a Tragety/Drama/Romance/HORROR movie :P
;D Well, it certainly can affect people much more than any horror story out there...
I swear MPJ..the horror of seeing the extent of cruelty that human race can possess ..it freaks us out and we r left so horrifed when we see that being different is such a punishment...Its a shame to mankind for even thinking so..it shows how low men can fall so that no one challenges and opposes their stereotypes and prejudices...
I think this is at the core of our revulsion: that we can see deep within our common humanity a will to cruelty. It rebukes us as much as it shames/horrifies us.
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Completely agree,Cleo.And still more because this is a kind of horror we can find in each corner,in persons just like us.Not in some weird monsters that somone has created to make us have shivers in our spine...These other monsters are REAL. :-\\
Thanks MPJ….I wholeheartedly agree with ya..these monsters r one of us itself..a human being who has really forgotten all about humanity..I think some people really allow the evil in them to win over the good in them..they allow their worst side to be out so that anyone who thinks ahead of time or who has the guts of accepting who they truly r can just be crushed down..these people exist around the world. However, in certain parts of the world still this kind of discrimination is happening at a very high rate..
Its pains me so much to say that Ennis and Jack became victims of the cruelty of this real world….Ennis was always afraid of that punishment as well as social isolation that those fears often overpowered his love for Jack… :\'( :\'(
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;D Well, it certainly can affect people much more than any horror story out there...
I think this is at the core of our revulsion: that we can see deep within our common humanity a will to cruelty. It rebukes us as much as it shames/horrifies us.
Exactly Thomas..This gets us so angry and horrified at the same time >:( :( :\'(..It makes us angry as we realize that there is no justice and freedom for a person to live the way he wants to..He is not harming anyone..All he wants is the respect and freedom to be himself..Alas, due to such people even today people fear of being themselves..It is such a shame. I hope things will be better in the future and people will be more understanding..I think these cruel people exist everywhere and its sad and disgusting that they r so stubborn and narrow minded…
We know this is the truth and it hurts more as we know that these r the fears that Ennis felt his whole life and Jack kept fighting for them to be together ..He knew why Ennis is like this and they both kept longing for each other… :\'( :\'(
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As horrifying as this scene was, I do think that it drove the point home -- the point you mentioned: can you the viewer face up to any possible internal hate for a person who just wants the freedom to live and love in the way he or she sees fit? This horrifying scene has a transforming power, even as it rebuked and transformed Ennis.
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Thanks MPJ….I wholeheartedly agree with ya..these monsters r one of us itself..a human being who has really forgotten all about humanity..I think some people really allow the evil in them to win over the good in them..they allow their worst side to be out so that anyone who thinks ahead of time or who has the guts of accepting who they truly r can just be crushed down..these people exist around the world. However, in certain parts of the world still this kind of discrimination is happening at a very high rate..
Its pains me so much to say that Ennis and Jack became victims of the cruelty of this real world….Ennis was always afraid of that punishment as well as social isolation that those fears often overpowered his love for Jack… :\'( :\'(
I wholeheartedly agree with you too.Sometimes they are rather weak persons who are hidding,really,a great fear of being just like they hate.More often that we think,they hate themselves and they project this hate against the persons who remind them who,what and how they're in their inner self.Just like the Nazi in "Different",an oldmovie with Dirk Bogarde,who filled with insults the house's walls of a gay politician,while he has theirs full with naked men photos...
And yes,this is often the real world,at least the world where Ennis and Jack lived and that made them its victims.Ennis was afraid of the punishment and the social isolation,as you say very well; but IMO he was more afraid of himself,of Jack and of the things he felt.I don't know if all this makes sense... :-\\
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I wholeheartedly agree with you too.Sometimes they are rather weak persons who are hidding,really,a great fear of being just like they hate.More often that we think,they hate themselves and they project this hate against the persons who remind them who,what and how they're in their inner self.Just like the Nazi in "Different",an oldmovie with Dirk Bogarde,who filled with insults the house's walls of a gay politician,while he has theirs full with naked men photos...
And yes,this is often the real world,at least the world where Ennis and Jack lived and that made them its victims.Ennis was afraid of the punishment and the social isolation,as you say very well; but IMO he was more afraid of himself,of Jack and of the things he felt.I don't know if all this makes sense... :-\\
In many ways, they lived their real lives deep inside, and a life of hiding outside. The sham is disquieting in disturbing in so many of the scenes we dislike. We understand that in a way, it is a pretense necessitated by fear of real danger, but it is a life of pretense nonetheless.
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As horrifying as this scene was, I do think that it drove the point home -- the point you mentioned: can you the viewer face up to any possible internal hate for a person who just wants the freedom to live and love in the way he or she sees fit? This horrifying scene has a transforming power, even as it rebuked and transformed Ennis.
Ya the internal hate can drive a person to just destroy everything that contradicts his breliefs..unfortunaltey, some people have this so strong in them that they can take refuge to acts like killing also to keep up their beliefs and to set an example to society that being different means to get killed..This way they feel that they can make people follow their beliefs and set hollow standards…
I have a question if u don’t mind..
In your opinion what did u refer to by saying that the horrifying scene transformed Ennis?.......As per my understanding I think that when a person goes from your life forever u know its true worth.I mean just the thought that he is not around can make one realize that...I think that Jacks horrifying death and Ennis in the last scene holding both the shirts made Ennis realize the intensity of Jack’s love. Even though he earlier knew that Jack loved him alot , he realized it even more and rather more clearly as to what he meant to Jack and what Jack meant to him…According to me that was transformation of Ennis….
I also think that it is transformational to all of us also to never to take love for granted when we have it. We must acknowledge it through actions, gestures and words to the other person how much he means to us….
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I wholeheartedly agree with you too.Sometimes they are rather weak persons who are hidding,really,a great fear of being just like they hate.More often that we think,they hate themselves and they project this hate against the persons who remind them who,what and how they're in their inner self.Just like the Nazi in "Different",an oldmovie with Dirk Bogarde,who filled with insults the house's walls of a gay politician,while he has theirs full with naked men photos...
And yes,this is often the real world,at least the world where Ennis and Jack lived and that made them its victims.Ennis was afraid of the punishment and the social isolation,as you say very well; but IMO he was more afraid of himself,of Jack and of the things he felt.I don't know if all this makes sense... :-\\
Thanks MPJ…I dint know about the film “Different”. Although as to what u told me the film speaks about hypocrisy that people have…Sadly even today many people still show this kind of hypocrisy…In Psychological terms this is an extreme Defense Mechanism known as "Reaction formation" . It means that one acts completely contradictory to his beliefs….Such people r not honest with themselves…They need to be shown a mirror and told what kind of mentality they have…
Yes dear u made complete sense by saying that Ennis was scared of himself and Jack. He was scared of himself as he knew how much he loved Jack..He had so much passion for Jack and knew when Jack was around he could just flow like a river in his arms and could not resist him in all ways….I am speaking emotionally, mentally and physically…He was afraid of Jack as Jack had the power to make him emotional and vulnerable so that he thinks and acts with his heart..Jack knew his weaknesses too…..
Ennis was in a fix…His whole life was a struggle between his own fears, his deepest love for Jack and the social isolation and punishment…
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Ya the internal hate can drive a person to just destroy everything that contradicts his breliefs..unfortunaltey, some people have this so strong in them that they can take refuge to acts like killing also to keep up their beliefs and to set an example to society that being different means to get killed..This way they feel that they can make people follow their beliefs and set hollow standards…
I have a question if u don’t mind..
In your opinion what did u refer to by saying that the horrifying scene transformed Ennis?.......As per my understanding I think that when a person goes from your life forever u know its true worth.I mean just the thought that he is not around can make one realize that...I think that Jacks horrifying death and Ennis in the last scene holding both the shirts made Ennis realize the intensity of Jack’s love. Even though he earlier knew that Jack loved him alot , he realized it even more and rather more clearly as to what he meant to Jack and what Jack meant to him…According to me that was transformation of Ennis….
I also think that it is transformational to all of us also to never to take love for granted when we have it. We must acknowledge it through actions, gestures and words to the other person how much he means to us….
Thanks smartestsonia.
You are right to mention the vision of Jack's death and the scene in the closet as related transformational scenes on the part of Ennis.
As to your question about the former scene, note that this scene was all in Ennis's head. We are not told whether it actually happened or not. IMO, this scene was shown in order to highlight Ennis's realization that his own fears killed Jack -- and it follows that Ennis also realized that these same fears killed his inner life -- a life so much wanting to have a life of love with Jack. I think that in this scene, Ennis sort of gets reborn from the ashes of his own fears. And we see the fruition in the closet scene when he realizes the depth of Jack's love for him.
Does this make sense to you? Both scenes are traansformational in a complementary sense, if you see what I mean.
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Thanks Thomas for your opinion ^f^ :)…It is true and does make a lot of sense to me…
Ya we r not sure how Jack died but Ennis fears were so much that he did have a perception in his mind that Jacks death would be the height of Cruelty..he himself feared that kind of death and after Jack passed away he felt that Jack would have probably encountered the worst death..That was picture was stuck in Ennis mind....
When he hugged that shirt he realized that what was left r the precious memories and the unshakable love opposed to all odds,…Jack’s memories and love is all that Ennis has for the rest of his life….it hurts me so much even to write this :\'(
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Thanks Thomas for your opinion ^f^ :)…It is true and does make a lot of sense to me…
Ya we r not sure how Jack died but Ennis fears were so much that he did have a perception in his mind that Jacks death would be the height of Cruelty..he himself feared that kind of death and after Jack passed away he felt that Jack would have probably encountered the worst death..That was picture was stuck in Ennis mind....
When he hugged that shirt he realized that what was left r the precious memories and the unshakable love opposed to all odds,…Jack’s memories and love is all that Ennis has for the rest of his life….it hurts me so much even to write this :\'(
There is a thread here started by edgar, which shows that one of the "mechanics" who was attacking Jack in Ennis's vision looked very much like Ennis. The implication is that Ennis may have projected himself as Jack's killer -- in a deeper sense.
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There is a thread here started by edgar, which shows that one of the "mechanics" who was attacking Jack in Ennis's vision looked very much like Ennis. The implication is that Ennis may have projected himself as Jack's killer -- in a deeper sense.
Oh God Thomas…this is too hard for me..I have not observed that one of them looked like Ennis..the gulit of being responsible for someones death is the worst feeling ones conscience can experience….When they met last in the final confronation Ennis left and later he felt bad that he fought with Jack and wanted to make up..At then he got the news that Jack is no more and he did'nt get a chance to hold him the last time or to spend more time with him..I think that hits him a lot as he dint get a chance to meet up with Jack after the fight..To top it up the gulit of being a killer of Jack made things worse and he could not confide all this hurt to anyone as the fear of being judged and not understood or getting killed himself..
So he was left with this fear and gulit…The only joy in his empty life after that is the memories of love, smile, hugs, touch, words and gestures of Jack…
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I am sorry if that was too upsetting, smartestsonia. I admit that what makes the postcard scene and the vision of Jack's death very unpleasant is that I also think that Ennis had already decided to make ammends with Jack and possibly move forward. This is all speculation, of course. Still, I can't help but feel that the Last Confrontation did have a positive effect on Ennis, and his breaking up with Cassie wasa sign that he was ready to do the right thing, in spite of the consequences. Hence, the ensuing scenes hit us harder than ever, because we are brought to the threshold of something "new", only to be pulled back to the depths of despair.
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There is a thread here started by edgar, which shows that one of the "mechanics" who was attacking Jack in Ennis's vision looked very much like Ennis. The implication is that Ennis may have projected himself as Jack's killer -- in a deeper sense.
I hadn't realised this image either,but now that you've commented I find it fairly plausible.It's almost a post for "Double meanings...",that if this was a projection of Ennis mind -and,for this reason,imagined for him-he must feel himself as guilty of his death somehow.Guilty for having let Jack in such an state of mind where he didn't mind what happenned to him; guilty to having killed him emotionally speaking,several years before already;guilty for having denied all his hopes and illusions during all these years;guilty,even,for having let him alone,for not having been by his side to protect him as he had been doing in his way...
And if it was the representation of Jack's real death,maybe Ang had wanted to introduce it to us in this way to illustrate the many ways one can destroy love,being a good complice of who kills physically speaking.A way to introduce to us the way Ennis was feeling then and how he could think he was also a killer.Good point,Thomas.
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I am sorry if that was too upsetting, smartestsonia. I admit that what makes the postcard scene and the vision of Jack's death very unpleasant is that I also think that Ennis had already decided to make ammends with Jack and possibly move forward. This is all speculation, of course. Still, I can't help but feel that the Last Confrontation did have a positive effect on Ennis, and his breaking up with Cassie wasa sign that he was ready to do the right thing, in spite of the consequences. Hence, the ensuing scenes hit us harder than ever, because we are brought to the threshold of something "new", only to be pulled back to the depths of despair.
I agree Thomas… that’s why I mentioned previously that Ennis wanted to make up with Jack…He was looking forward to meet up with Jack and of course take things ahead…The last time he met Jack they fought and things were left with so much pain and hurt...He dint get a change to reconcile with Jack, hold him and tell him what he feels. Even if Ennis would not have said anything much to Jack (which is most likely) he would have definitely conveyed through his gestures as to how much Jack meant to him….
The thought of Jack suffering to death and Ennis not being able to be with him anymore and the fact that when they met last it led to a bitter confrontation made it too hurtful for Ennis and all of us...Ennis hated himself for putting Jack through so much when they last met…He knew that Jack was so hurt and he wanted to meet up and take things in better light…The thought of Jack suffering and the thought of not being there for him when Jack needed him killed Ennis from inside….
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I hadn't realised this image either,but now that you've commented I find it fairly plausible.It's almost a post for "Double meanings...",that if this was a projection of Ennis mind -and,for this reason,imagined for him-he must feel himself as guilty of his death somehow.Guilty for having let Jack in such an state of mind where he didn't mind what happenned to him; guilty to having killed him emotionally speaking,several years before already;guilty for having denied all his hopes and illusions during all these years;guilty,even,for having let him alone,for not having been by his side to protect him as he had been doing in his way...
And if it was the representation of Jack's real death,maybe Ang had wanted to introduce it to us in this way to illustrate the many ways one can destroy love,being a good complice of who kills physically speaking.A way to introduce to us the way Ennis was feeling then and how he could think he was also a killer.Good point,Thomas.
This is so true MPJ…u have explained Ennis’s guilt so very well…its painful to imagine all these thoughts in Ennis mind at a time...it is haunting…The fact that Jack had a painful death made Ennis feel that he is the root of all of Jack’s pain…Not just physical pain but emotional pain that he felt he gave Jack all these years by not being there for him all the time, by avoiding him at different situations…. I think that this is one of the worst emotional burden that anyone can go through and my heart goes out to Ennis...I think we can learn from this that we must always acknowledge love when it is in front of us as we never know how long the person will be able to be there with us…
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I hadn't realised this image either,but now that you've commented I find it fairly plausible.It's almost a post for "Double meanings...",that if this was a projection of Ennis mind -and,for this reason,imagined for him-he must feel himself as guilty of his death somehow.Guilty for having let Jack in such an state of mind where he didn't mind what happenned to him; guilty to having killed him emotionally speaking,several years before already;guilty for having denied all his hopes and illusions during all these years;guilty,even,for having let him alone,for not having been by his side to protect him as he had been doing in his way...
And if it was the representation of Jack's real death,maybe Ang had wanted to introduce it to us in this way to illustrate the many ways one can destroy love,being a good complice of who kills physically speaking.A way to introduce to us the way Ennis was feeling then and how he could think he was also a killer.Good point,Thomas.
I was also quite startled when edgar posted the picture and proposed the similarity. The "mechanic" (who is never really introduced this way) is perhaps a personification of his own guilt. It ties in beautifully with his vision of Jack's death...
I do agree with you about Ang. A friend of mine had commented that a director friend of his told him that you don't do a scene that way unless you really want the audience to believe that waht they are seeing actually happened. It is a form of cinematic suggestion/projection I guess...
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I agree Thomas… that’s why I mentioned previously that Ennis wanted to make up with Jack…He was looking forward to meet up with Jack and of course take things ahead…The last time he met Jack they fought and things were left with so much pain and hurt...He dint get a change to reconcile with Jack, hold him and tell him what he feels. Even if Ennis would not have said anything much to Jack (which is most likely) he would have definitely conveyed through his gestures as to how much Jack meant to him….
The thought of Jack suffering to death and Ennis not being able to be with him anymore and the fact that when they met last it led to a bitter confrontation made it too hurtful for Ennis and all of us...Ennis hated himself for putting Jack through so much when they last met…He knew that Jack was so hurt and he wanted to meet up and take things in better light…The thought of Jack suffering and the thought of not being there for him when Jack needed him killed Ennis from inside….
I really sensed that there was something he wanted to do or say differently the next time he was to meet with Jack. I just felt it. The vision of jack's death may have been a reaction to the cruelty of fate and his feelings of unresolved guilt. Perhaps he wanted to seek resolution in the next meeting with Jack. Who knows? perhaps he was ready by then to have a life together -- we will never really know... This makes the murder scene especially distasteful. It would seem to terminate the flow of "what could have been" in midstream.
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This is so true MPJ…u have explained Ennis’s guilt so very well…its painful to imagine all these thoughts in Ennis mind at a time...it is haunting…The fact that Jack had a painful death made Ennis feel that he is the root of all of Jack’s pain…Not just physical pain but emotional pain that he felt he gave Jack all these years by not being there for him all the time, by avoiding him at different situations…. I think that this is one of the worst emotional burden that anyone can go through and my heart goes out to Ennis...I think we can learn from this that we must always acknowledge love when it is in front of us as we never know how long the person will be able to be there with us…
:t) Cleo¡ I agree with you that feeling oneself the root of all the loved person's misfortunes to end being killed,having you killed him before in so many ways,it's a really unbearable burden to carry all your life onwards.The greatest lesson we can learn from BBM and Ennis tragedy is what you say so well; live your love now because you never know if there's a tomorrow for both of you.
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I was also quite startled when edgar posted the picture and proposed the similarity. The "mechanic" (who is never really introduced this way) is perhaps a personification of his own guilt. It ties in beautifully with his vision of Jack's death...
I do agree with you about Ang. A friend of mine had commented that a director friend of his told him that you don't do a scene that way unless you really want the audience to believe that waht they are seeing actually happened. It is a form of cinematic suggestion/projection I guess...
Yes,this supposed mechanic can be the ghost of all Ennis doubts and fears,the personification of him as a love's killer-to say it in some way...-.Very good words from your friend's friend,by the way; it's true,but I keep on saying that this "what they are seeing" may be perfectly another way of killing Jack,not only physically.
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Thankyou Thomas and MPJ...I agree with all that u guys have mentioned.
I really think that if they would have met up next time Ennis would have wanted to make sure that Jack is alright and would want to take things further...Jack’s death was a tragedy and it was even more worse as when they met last it led to a bitter confrontation...I mean Ennis dint even get a chance to make up for what happened last…He knew that Jack was hurting as Jack felt that Ennis is sidelining him...Ennis wanted to meet up and to resolve everything that went wrong and he wanted to be there for Jack…
This is the tragic part as he lost him when he wanted and needed him the most…Jack is the love of his life and it killed Ennis with the thought that last time when he was with Jack he hurt him so much...All the years Jack kept longing for him and Jack always wanted to live with him… :\'(
My heart goes out to both their miseries and struggles :\'(
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Yes,this supposed mechanic can be the ghost of all Ennis doubts and fears,the personification of him as a love's killer-to say it in some way...-.Very good words from your friend's friend,by the way; it's true,but I keep on saying that this "what they are seeing" may be perfectly another way of killing Jack,not only physically.
Well, I honestly think that a part of Jack died in the Last Confrontation. Somehow, feel that in the murder scene -- on to of all the unpleasantness we feel viewing this scene -- we see only a "shell" of the real Jack Twist. It is as if the Last Confrontation had "gutted" him even before he met his end.
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Thankyou Thomas and MPJ...I agree with all that u guys have mentioned.
I really think that if they would have met up next time Ennis would have wanted to make sure that Jack is alright and would want to take things further...Jack’s death was a tragedy and it was even more worse as when they met last it led to a bitter confrontation...I mean Ennis dint even get a chance to make up for what happened last…He knew that Jack was hurting as Jack felt that Ennis is sidelining him...Ennis wanted to meet up and to resolve everything that went wrong and he wanted to be there for Jack…
This is the tragic part as he lost him when he wanted and needed him the most…Jack is the love of his life and it killed Ennis with the thought that last time when he was with Jack he hurt him so much...All the years Jack kept longing for him and Jack always wanted to live with him… :\'(
My heart goes out to both their miseries and struggles :\'(
Did you also get the sense that the "murder" scene was in fact a double murder? I think it killed Ennis as much (internally) as it killed Jack. He certainly felt stifled in that scene -- it took several seconds before he could respond back to Lureen. I had a feeling that he was feeling everything that Jack must have felt, had that scene really been real.
Well, whatever the case -- real or not -- the effect on Ennis was palpable.
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Did you also get the sense that the "murder" scene was in fact a double murder? I think it killed Ennis as much (internally) as it killed Jack. He certainly felt stifled in that scene -- it took several seconds before he could respond back to Lureen. I had a feeling that he was feeling everything that Jack must have felt, had that scene really been real.
Well, whatever the case -- real or not -- the effect on Ennis was palpable.
I think being Psychologically dead is traumatic…It’s a life of no hope and of being completely shattered....When Ennis got to know that Jack passed away the life left in him vanished and all which was left was a hollow body was lifeless flesh…I think his life was taken as Jack was his world and his life in true sense…Even if he was scared to live with him and denied the reality to the world, Jack was all he had…
Now what is left for Ennis is Jack’s memories which is the only thing that will soothe his emotionally wounded soul :\'(
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But at least he still had the memories.
Do you remember the scene when Jr. arrives and Ennis fumbles about Troy and fails to distinguish between 2 years ago and the now? I don't dislike this scene at all, but I must admit that it is painful to watch that this scene illustrates how detached and isolated Ennis had become after Jack's death. As you said, it is clear that he had been completely "gutted". And it seems like he tried so hard to keep the memory of Jack alive that he invaraibly shunned memories of almost everything else. We see it in this very scene.
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But at least he still had the memories.
Do you remember the scene when Jr. arrives and Ennis fumbles about Troy and fails to distinguish between 2 years ago and the now? I don't dislike this scene at all, but I must admit that it is painful to watch that this scene illustrates how detached and isolated Ennis had become after Jack's death. As you said, it is clear that he had been completely "gutted". And it seems like he tried so hard to keep the memory of Jack alive that he invaraibly shunned memories of almost everything else. We see it in this very scene.
i never thought of it that way but it makes alot of sense and i agree with you 100%
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But at least he still had the memories.
Do you remember the scene when Jr. arrives and Ennis fumbles about Troy and fails to distinguish between 2 years ago and the now? I don't dislike this scene at all, but I must admit that it is painful to watch that this scene illustrates how detached and isolated Ennis had become after Jack's death. As you said, it is clear that he had been completely "gutted". And it seems like he tried so hard to keep the memory of Jack alive that he invaraibly shunned memories of almost everything else. We see it in this very scene.
It's interesting how different people view a certain scene differently from another. I saw this scene as a rather endearing way Ennis was treating his daughter, almost playing with her gently. It's actually a happy scene for me, followed by the realization his daughter found the love of her life at about the same age as he did...and the possibility of what could have been.
I think it's how scenes address a certain emotion in different viewers that keep many of us drawn to this film and to an additional extent this site...even 3-4 years after the event.
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i never thought of it that way but it makes alot of sense and i agree with you 100%
Thanks Matt. :)
It's interesting how different people view a certain scene differently from another. I saw this scene as a rather endearing way Ennis was treating his daughter, almost playing with her gently. It's actually a happy scene for me, followed by the realization his daughter found the love of her life at about the same age as he did...and the possibility of what could have been.
I think it's how scenes address a certain emotion in different viewers that keep many of us drawn to this film and to an additional extent this site...even 3-4 years after the event.
Very interesting, Romeo. I had not thought of it this way. I had actually thought that he was out of synch with what was happening to Jr. But what you say here makes sense in that there is an unmistakable sense of play in that scene. It could very well be that Ennis was just teasing Jr. In this light, it is indeed very endearing.
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I agree. This explanation seems to me to fit exactly the sense I picked up during the beginning of the scene, anyway. It kind of changed later, when he gazed out the window, talking about going to the wedding and all. But I find his acting like "the old man" to his daughter was so cute!
kathy
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kathy, perhaps it was BOTH. Perhaps one was working on the surface, and the other on a more subconscious level...
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OMG! After reading all your posts about FC, I am devastated again. That scene was disturbing for me because it was the last time that Ennis and Jack were together! But I never thought about it in a way that Jack's death had already started there, that he was dead inside for Ennis rejected him so many times. Oh! I feel so so so sorry for Jack! His pain is my open wound, and after reading this thread, you even put the salt on that wound! :\'( :\'( :\'(
For so many times in the movie Jack was the one who should be comforted, but instead - he always comforted Ennis. I remember first time in the mountain after reunion, he was rejected by Ennis. He was so down, but he caressed Ennis's face with his hand so gently. Even in FC, as much as he was beaten and defeated, pushed away, again HE was the one who hold Ennis and calmed him down.
I can not say that I do not feel for Ennis, as he's the one who was left in pain (Jack went to Brokeback mountain! :ghug:), but Jack's obvious pain during the years of their hidden love affair, make me so beaten up, so sorrowful that I can hardly breathe! He was a man in such a need of love and the person he loved the most was never able to return in the same manner. Even so, Jack functioned so well! He could adopt to any situation. Unlike Ennis, who was a very destructive person, Jack kept his marriage, although was ready to leave Lureen at any moment. But he manage to deal with any situation... except with the person he loved the most - Ennis.
Jack was so alive, so lovely and so deeply unhappy!
Dear dear Jack! :\'(
My PBS is coming back in it's worse! :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
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I agree..."dear, dear Jack". Never saw his dreams fulfilled; the least they could've done was scatter his ashes up on BB.
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I agree..."dear, dear Jack". Never saw his dreams fulfilled; the least they could've done was scatter his ashes up on BB.
Oh, that's also unbearably sad! The summer 1963 meant everything to him! his whole life was there!
But, the ash is only a symbol. His immortal soul is there, right on Brokeback, waiting.... :\'(
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Loreen..loved your previous posts..Thansk dear ^f^..It so painful to me to see Jack hurting his whole life and I also felt the same that inspite of being rejected by Ennis he comforted him so much..He was a pillar of strength to Ennis...All he ever wanted in his life was Ennis..He went to Mexico but that dint let him get Ennis out of his heart....Nothing could have :\'(
I also feel for Ennis and I really think that he is a victim of his own fears and insecurites..Even though he loved Jack and wanted him in his life, he was scared to open it up to the world as he would have to face rejection, humiliation and an extreme caase of death..I think when Jack tells Ennis that he wihsed he could quit him Ennis felt that nothing is left in his life..He is having nothing of his own..When Jack saw him hurting so luch and seeing how helpless Ennis has become he himself felt the hit and went to hug him...Thats how much Jack loved Ennis.. :\'(
Inspite of Jack being broken himself he went to mend Ennis broken heart :\'( :\'(
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I always ask myself the question: Why this movie touched my heart as no book, no story, no movie... NOTHING ever had!! WHY?
Why it hurts so much?
I tend to think the main reason is Jack's immense love for Ennis. No one has ever showed so deep, so passionate, so forgiving and unselfish love like Jack's was. He accepted everything, he went through an ordeal during 20 years to meet the needs of Ennis, and to fulfil only a scrap of his enormous needs for Ennis's love. Pushed away, rejected so many times, humiliated by others too (Father in law and his buyers), he always remains so proud, so focused, that becomes even more attractive to a viewer.
And when he's gone, I think it's over, but it's not. Two Brokeback mountain's shirts come to a life and shatter my heart in even smaller pieces than before.
Finally, at the end of the movie Ennis takes Jack's pain into his chest, and his face reflects every inch of their unfulfilled longings. :\'(
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I always ask myself the question: Why this movie touched my heart as no book, no story, no movie... NOTHING ever had!! WHY?
Why it hurts so much?
I tend to think the main reason is Jack's immense love for Ennis. No one has ever showed so deep, so passionate, so forgiving and unselfish love like Jack's was. He accepted everything, he went through an ordeal during 20 years to meet the needs of Ennis, and to fulfil only a scrap of his enormous needs for Ennis's love. Pushed away, rejected so many times, humiliated by others too (Father in law and his buyers), he always remains so proud, so focused, that becomes even more attractive to a viewer.
And when he's gone, I think it's over, but it's not. Two Brokeback mountain's shirts come to a life and shatter my heart in even smaller pieces than before.
Finally, at the end of the movie Ennis takes Jack's pain into his chest, and his face reflects every inch of their unfulfilled longings. :\'(
There r so many answers as to why it hurts loreen...I have tried to figure it..we feel their love so much and nobody around them understood their love....Whole 20 long long years Jack kept longing for Ennis...He had so many dreams but they were shattered as Ennis was too scared to be with Jack all the time and he had so many fears deep rooted to his childhood experiences…
I had told in other posts that death cant take away the love of Jack from Ennis…the shirts r a symbol of pure love that they share...When Ennis held that shirt he felt Jack’s presence…thats what hurts the most...Jack is still alive in his heart…he is not gone…its not over...it never will be…
We cry so much as we want them to be together…atleast if not in their 20 years then atleast in the end…we want it…we need it…it’s the only thing that matters but it does not happen...that hits us like a rock with so much force and we r left wounded…
We r left with this deep hurt and then when the movie ends we don’t know what to do about the hurt….I try my best to make sense out of it…Initially its just me crying and getting emotional and later when it sinks in I really pray and wish that Ennis did find meaning in his life…Even if Jack was not in front of him physically he was filled with his love...It hurts deeply when u want to acknowledge that love to someone and he is not in front of u..But I really think that Ennis and Jack’s love is something that generations will witness and love…they r not alone anymore…we r there for them and understand them and r for each other to get through this pain…
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There r so many answers as to why it hurts loreen...I have tried to figure it..we feel their love so much and nobody around them understood their love....Whole 20 long long years Jack kept longing for Ennis...He had so many dreams but they were shattered as Ennis was too scared to be with Jack all the time and he had so many fears deep rooted to his childhood experiences…
I had told in other posts that death cant take away the love of Jack from Ennis…the shirts r a symbol of pure love that they share...When Ennis held that shirt he felt Jack’s presence…thats what hurts the most...Jack is still alive in his heart…he is not gone…its not over...it never will be…
We cry so much as we want them to be together…atleast if not in their 20 years then atleast in the end…we want it…we need it…it’s the only thing that matters but it does not happen...that hits us like a rock with so much force and we r left wounded…
We r left with this deep hurt and then when the movie ends we don’t know what to do about the hurt….I try my best to make sense out of it…Initially its just me crying and getting emotional and later when it sinks in I really pray and wish that Ennis did find meaning in his life…Even if Jack was not in front of him physically he was filled with his love...It hurts deeply when u want to acknowledge that love to someone and he is not in front of u..But I really think that Ennis and Jack’s love is something that generations will witness and love…they r not alone anymore…we r there for them and understand them and r for each other to get through this pain…
I was thinking about the shirts myself too. I think that two hugging shirts with Ennis's blood on the sleeves were the final strike for our hearts. As if Jack's love was surprisingly materialised.
We all see clearly during the movie how great Jack's love is, but just at the end of the movie, we found out the most touching evidence, living, material, carefully hidden from all the world. Even in the very moment when punched by Ennis, he took his shirt as something he can Cherish and love. He preserve a memory of Ennis's PUNCH as memento of their deep intimacy! Could anyone even imagine the power of that love?? $)
After Jack's death I felt sorry and empty, but when these two shirts come out, I was completely devastated. Jack's shirt was embracing Ennis's in the same manner that Jack was always embracing and consoling Ennis. Later Ennis put them reverse - he knew that he should've embraced Jack and love him openly years ago, when they still had a chance. And now he expressed it through the shirts. Well... that HURTS!!! :\'( A lot! :gnight:
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SOme of your exchanges reminded me of this: the 2 instances when John Twist denies Jack's request to be buried in BBM -- very unpleasant.
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I think that word "unpleasant" is maybe even not enough! In my opinion not to follow the last wish is extremely disrespectful, but John Twist was treating Jack like that all his life. I think that parents who don't manage to develop the love and respect towards their children NO MATTER WHAT, are moral prodigy! Their behavior is a lifetime punishment for their kids. That's the reason I felt for Jack even more :\'(. On the other hand, he had a dear mum who obviously adored him, and that makes me less uncomfortable about his childhood!
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I wish they'd granted him his wish to have his ashes scattered but it bothers me more that even in death he isn't whole :-\\ But I think that Ennis having the shirts is just as good- IMO, I think he only figured he'd get back to that place where he was happiest never anticipating that Ennis would find the shirts. And when Ennis did he brought Jack home with him, so in that regard one wish was granted.
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LJN...I like that. I never quite looked at it that way. THANKS!
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I was thinking about the shirts myself too. I think that two hugging shirts with Ennis's blood on the sleeves were the final strike for our hearts. As if Jack's love was surprisingly materialised.
We all see clearly during the movie how great Jack's love is, but just at the end of the movie, we found out the most touching evidence, living, material, carefully hidden from all the world. Even in the very moment when punched by Ennis, he took his shirt as something he can Cherish and love. He preserve a memory of Ennis's PUNCH as memento of their deep intimacy! Could anyone even imagine the power of that love?? $)
After Jack's death I felt sorry and empty, but when these two shirts come out, I was completely devastated. Jack's shirt was embracing Ennis's in the same manner that Jack was always embracing and consoling Ennis. Later Ennis put them reverse - he knew that he should've embraced Jack and love him openly years ago, when they still had a chance. And now he expressed it through the shirts. Well... that HURTS!!! :\'( A lot! :gnight:
I completely agree with ya…I loved the way u mentioned about the punch as a memento of their deep intimacy…
When Ennis hugged the shirts he difinitely felt Jacks’s love as he treasured a shirt of Ennis…it was a token of his love and of a memory shared with Ennis..Even if it was a fight he felt close to Ennis and Ennis was around him..That was enough for Jack to keep it as a memory. Every moment shared wih Ennis no matteer what the situation was , was dam precious to Jack..thats what hit Ennis when he saw the shirts..he actually must have thought that Jack must have hugged this shirt so many times and Ennis hugged it to feel Jack’s presence...
Ennis was looking out for a smell of Jack’s body or a feeling of his touch…what he got was a memory of BBM shared by both and the shirt were an undying illustration of their love...It hurts and literally shatters me…I think Ennis wanted to say so much if not through words then through his gestures..but Jack is not around..what is left is the precious memories and a feeling of pure love which cant be explained through words…This is what ennis had in the end and with that he will live the rest of his life..He will live for that love..The hardest thing to ever do but Ithink that Ennis will do it…
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I wish they'd granted him his wish to have his ashes scattered but it bothers me more that even in death he isn't whole :-\\ But I think that Ennis having the shirts is just as good- IMO, I think he only figured he'd get back to that place where he was happiest never anticipating that Ennis would find the shirts. And when Ennis did he brought Jack home with him, so in that regard one wish was granted.
:t) :t) :^^)
This makes things a little easier!
:\'(
I said "a little"!.....
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Oh, yes!
I watched the deleted scene (it's about a second or so) when Ennis is crying after he found the shirts. Oh, how that hurts! It burns my soul all the night long. I am completely out of myself. :\'(
This morning I read the news about Michelle W. who said that the time only make things harder as she misses Heath more and more. I really feel sorry for her. :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
Don't mind me saying this, but I was always thinking of Heath's death as if he could've been saved if his friends and family reacted firmly when they saw his life is tearing apart. What makes it worse is the fact that he was not just anybody, but highly loved, adored and appreciated actor!! And yet, no one to take serious steps to pull him out of his inner hell! I hope this question is not cruel, but I can imagine that some of them should feel guilty! Soooo sad! :\'(
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Oh, yes!
I watched the deleted scene (it's about a second or so) when Ennis is crying after he found the shirts. Oh, how that hurts! It burns my soul all the night long. I am completely out of myself. :\'(
This morning I read the news about Michelle W. who said that the time only make things harder as she misses Heath more and more. I really feel sorry for her. :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
Don't mind me saying this, but I was always thinking of Heath's death as if he could've been saved if his friends and family reacted firmly when they saw his life is tearing apart. What makes it worse is the fact that he was not just anybody, but highly loved, adored and appreciated actor!! And yet, no one to take serious steps to pull him out of his inner hell! I hope this question is not cruel, but I can imagine that some of them should feel guilty! Soooo sad! :\'(
I swear Loreen I thought the same...Ill tell u something..the month heath died (in Jan).. I had seen a pic of his in a magazine which was clicked either end of December or start of January..In that pic he had a little long hair..his face was red,he looked alone ..he had not slept well..he looked as if he was in depression and lost..He needed him desperately...I felt so bad seeing that pic..it literally showed that he was miserable...The worst part was that the magazine put that pic and said something sarcastic like he should get a haircut....the Media can be very cruel at times..
There is no doubt that he is highly loved and missed by all :( :\'(
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Thanks for agreeing with me Sonia!
I thought that my thinking is a bit extreme, but you noticed the very same problem.
I also highly resent a person (I will not say her name) who refused to tell all the details about his last days and give a proper closure to his family, only because she's scared to be prosecuted herself. It makes me so so sad and bitter! I treat my friends a little different than that, so it's unimaginable for me that NO ONE REACTED!!! They all knew how sad and devastated Heath was after Michelle and Matilda left...
So talented, so young, so dear....
OMG, I don't know what is killing me more right now - Brokeback or Heath!?!
But my heart is surely b r o k e n!!! :gnight: :gnight: :gnight:
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Thanks for agreeing with me Sonia!
I thought that my thinking is a bit extreme, but you noticed the very same problem.
I also highly resent a person (I will not say her name) who refused to tell all the details about his last days and give a proper closure to his family, only because she's scared to be prosecuted herself. It makes me so so sad and bitter! I treat my friends a little different than that, so it's unimaginable for me that NO ONE REACTED!!! They all knew how sad and devastated Heath was after Michelle and Matilda left...
So talented, so young, so dear....
OMG, I don't know what is killing me more right now - Brokeback or Heath!?!
But my heart is surely b r o k e n!!! :gnight: :gnight: :gnight:
Thanks Loreen ..u can call me Cleo..
You thoughts r not at all extreme..they r appropriate to the situation..
I think I know which person u r talking about and she really never spoke about anything...She kept quite to let people forget about it...As a person I am very expressive and my friends are the most imporatnt people to me apart from family...I think his closest people did mourn alot for him and will always miss him..They would have definitely felt gulity too..its very natural.... I think this tragedy is too huge for Michelle and my heart goes out to Matilda who will grow without here dad..God, it hurts me to think that
I think BBM kills me and it kills me even more as Heath is not there :\'( :\'(
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Dear Cleo :ghug: :ghug:,
I feel the same! Can not comfort you, but I'd be glad to share your sorrow! :^^) :^^) $)
When I read Michelle's words, and remember little Matilda Rose sooo look like Heath, I took their sadness as my own!
She sounded also so lonely in this interview about her coping with Heath's death and I hope that she'll get much more support that Heath had!
One thing more: Heath was not Ennis, he wore his wound openly, everyone saw it!! How come no one recognized it?? Oh God, it's so late now! As well it was late for Jack in BBM!!
Rest in peace little darling! :\'( Both of you! :\'(
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Thankyou Loreen :ghug:
I think we can share our joys and sorrows…As u said, Matilda looks so much like Heath..Heath is still alive in her...He lives in her and he is her guardian angel…I think it was obvious that Heath was really going through a hard time during his last days...That pic that I told u about shouted with this evidence.…I know its too late now and we will always miss him...We love him so very much..Michelle must be so broken and hollow..I hope her closed ones r with ther throughout....She needs all the love that she can get…
“Heath, u came for a short while on Earth and u gave us so much..BBM is your gift to us..Thankyou for giving us Ennis.Thankyou for being so wonderful…You mean too much to us”
When I watch the final scene of BBM I feel so vulnerable..I just wished so many things differently..but when it hits me that Jack is gone, I just feel that Ennis is ofcourse devastated and hollow....I just want to hug him...He is left with all the memories and I really feel that he will be strong and live as Jack would want him to be so..God,, the toughest thing to do :\'( :\'(
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Thankyou Loreen :ghug:
I think we can share our joys and sorrows…As u said, Matilda looks so much like Heath..Heath is still alive in her...He lives in her and he is her guardian angel…I think it was obvious that Heath was really going through a hard time during his last days...That pic that I told u about shouted with this evidence.…I know its too late now and we will always miss him...We love him so very much..Michelle must be so broken and hollow..I hope her closed ones r with ther throughout....She needs all the love that she can get…
“Heath, u came for a short while on Earth and u gave us so much..BBM is your gift to us..Thankyou for giving us Ennis.Thankyou for being so wonderful…You mean too much to us”
When I watch the final scene of BBM I feel so vulnerable..I just wished so many things differently..but when it hits me that Jack is gone, I just feel that Ennis is ofcourse devastated and hollow....I just want to hug him...He is left with all the memories and I really feel that he will be strong and live as Jack would want him to be so..God,, the toughest thing to do :\'( :\'(
Dear Cleo :^^),
I already spoke about it: eg. "Splendor in the grass" with N. Wood and Warren B., "Ghost" with D. Moore and P. Swayze, "Gone with the wind" with C. Gable and Vi. Leigh ..... and many more. All this movies have moved my soul and make me feel sad and down for few days. Afterwards I'd just forgotten about it, just erased the feeling from me.
But Brokeback mountain...... I am :i *^) :\'( :gnight: for more than a month now!! And still asking myself WHY?? Why this movie? Why so long and so strong? Sure, I know - one of the reasons is surely Heath, but I don't believe that's all.
Where these two characters managed to touch me? How deep this story intrude my (usually not so deep) emotions?? Why I contemplate about them more than about my own personal problems?? Why so long and so painful agony??? These characters are EVEN NOT REAL!!! FGS!!!
So many questions, but the answer is only pain, unbearable, profound pain. The answer is neglecting myself and i become Jack .. or Ennis... or Jack again...or..... ^*()
Do I need to find some help? Can anyone help me at all (except of you Brokies who do understand) ?
For how long I have to stand it (cause I can not fix it) ?
HEEEEELP! $) $) $)
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Dear Loreen,
Hold on dear :ghug:....you will be fine...BBM shatters us mainly as we r still belonging to a time where there is no justice...Ennis and Jack became victims of this real world...All Ennis and Jack truly wanted in life was each other..thats it...but Ennis due to his childhood trauma, his fears of abandonment from the society and worst to be killed was so dam huge that he could not allow himself to live with Jack…Jack on the other hand was willing to take that risk…Now Jack’s dream was not fulfilled..20 long years of regret in Jacks heart haunts us….It is so horrible to see that he needed to goto Mexico…Ennis on the other hand did not live with his children and in the end during the final confrontaion when Jack tells him that he wished he could quit him makes Ennis fall apart as he felt that all that truly mattered to him is gone….he felt that due to Jack he always followed his heart and is left with nothing..Jack’s love was a strong force that Ennis could not be without…So at the final confronation we see 2 men who r filled with pain and the main reason is that they could not be together...Even if Ennis wanted Jack he feared too much and Jack could not make his dream a reality…we see so much disappointment, so much regret…even though we see the pain in the final confrontation immediately we r shown the Dozy Embrace which a glimpse of pure love and a magical moment shared by them…Jack was silent and mesmerized and Ennis was filled with love....Then we see the present… Ennis wanted to make up and meet Jack later after the final confrontation but it was too late as Jack passed away…So he dint get a last chance to hold him., hug and kiss him and to ask for forvginess…The end puts us into pieces….We so badly want things to be different but trust me, I really feel that Ennis did live for long after Jack passéd away as Ennis wanted to live to keep Jack’s love alive….That is what touches us so much that it literally chokes us…We feel so shattered as we so baldy want them to be together…Everything else seems useless in front of them…We see this injustice in the world so we literally relate to Ennis and Jack’s pain to the world…I think that is why it is too real for us...we know that this height of restrictions happens so much even today and when we see that we automatically connect it with Ennis and Jack…that is why it hurts the most…Its the worst tragedy that happened with them and this film was needed to be shown...it has made a lot of difference to people irrespective of their sexual orientation...it spoke about true love that dint care for any laws made by the society...there is no other film that just spoke from its heart the way this has...It is normal to cry, to be upset and to be shaken. This film teaches us to cherish and treasure love when it is in front of us….It shows to always follow your heart before it is too late…We can learn a lot from that and use that in our own lives…Loreen, we r there for u and BBM is a part of all of us and it will always be..
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I think that word "unpleasant" is maybe even not enough! In my opinion not to follow the last wish is extremely disrespectful, but John Twist was treating Jack like that all his life. I think that parents who don't manage to develop the love and respect towards their children NO MATTER WHAT, are moral prodigy! Their behavior is a lifetime punishment for their kids. That's the reason I felt for Jack even more :\'(. On the other hand, he had a dear mum who obviously adored him, and that makes me less uncomfortable about his childhood!
Well, you would be surprised perhaps to know that some of our members feel that we are too harsh on jack's father -- and that he was only disappointed about Jack not keeping his promise to help out on the farm.
Personally, I feel a lot of bitterness in John Twist. I feel that this accounts for whay I don't feel that sympathetic to him...
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There's one scene I've been thinking about, that makes me very uncomfortable. That is when Jack came to see Ennis, so happy, so full of expectations... Ennis just introduced him to his daughters and sent him away...
I can not understand this kind of behaviour. Someone drives 14 hours to see you, and you don't even give him a glass of water?? &*&
I noticed Ennis's head down after Jack left, but why let him go so quickly anyway?
Was is possible to go out together with girls? To sit and to talk something, neutrally?
Also, who was in the white truck that was driving on the road? Why E&J looked at the truck so significantly? &*&
I know that people say that 3 things one can never hide: cough, poverty and love... maybe Ennis was afraid that his love would be so obvious???
I don't know, but I felt so much for Jack there. Even so humiliated he preserves his pride and just said: OK, see you next month! Dear Jack!
Another scene I dislike - him with a male prostitute ( %( )... When they went into the darkness, camera just stayed there with a Mexican music in background in order to amplify the effect of Jack's despair! :\'( :\'( (Good job Lee!)
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I wish they'd granted him his wish to have his ashes scattered but it bothers me more that even in death he isn't whole :-\\ But I think that Ennis having the shirts is just as good- IMO, I think he only figured he'd get back to that place where he was happiest never anticipating that Ennis would find the shirts. And when Ennis did he brought Jack home with him, so in that regard one wish was granted.
Actually, I would have felt better had Ennis gotten a portion of the ashes. Even the shirts are not enough, IMO.
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Well, you would be surprised perhaps to know that some of our members feel that we are too harsh on jack's father -- and that he was only disappointed about Jack not keeping his promise to help out on the farm.
Personally, I feel a lot of bitterness in John Twist. I feel that this accounts for whay I don't feel that sympathetic to him...
Tpe, I have to disagree with those members. ~)
John Twist was disgusted as he understood the sexual affinity of Jack, as he was aware that Jack looked upon a man and adored a man. His haterad was obvious where he pronounced Ennis's name. Ennis Del Maar! In his nasty way he was even making fun of Ennis when mentioned another man, Jack's neighbour who was supposed to come from Texas.
His repugnance is also obvious when he angrily spits in his cup, showing that he disrespects his son, disrespects his wishes and his unfulfilled dreams.
Anyway, Jack himself has talked during summer 1963. how his oldman never told him any secret about riding bull, nor even once go to see Jack ride! Very significant!!!
The things described in the SS about his relationship with Jack are even more despicable! (urinating on Jack ^*)!!!)
I believe that it can not be more clear than that - John Twist never accepted Jack's softness and his character. Sure I can imagine that he was sorry cause his only son died, but not sorry enough to fulfill Jack's last wish! I deeply dislike the old man! ^^)
Love you Jack twist! <^( <^( <^(
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Actually, I would have felt better had Ennis gotten a portion of the ashes. Even the shirts are not enough, IMO.
Hm, I never thought about it, but... well , yes! He should've gotten a portion. Something like 100%!
Although, after Jack's gone, my mind and my feelings just stop there. For me EVERYTHING IS OVER! :\'( I see no hope for Ennis! He only knows that he's gotta stand it, nothing more! He's empty and lost. Oh, how I feel sorry for him but at the same time have a little anger towards him.. only a little...
~) I'm still in the very middle of PBS!
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I understand your sentiments Loreen. In fact, find the LF scenes with John Twist sort of repugnant -- as if we are not in the presence of Jack's father! Mama Twist's sense of opression is very hard to watch -- the part when she holds her neck close to the end of Ennis's stay. It is as if she is suffocating...
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Hm, I never thought about it, but... well , yes! He should've gotten a portion. Something like 100%!
Although, after Jack's gone, my mind and my feelings just stop there. For me EVERYTHING IS OVER! :\'( I see no hope for Ennis! He only knows that he's gotta stand it, nothing more! He's empty and lost. Oh, how I feel sorry for him but at the same time have a little anger towards him.. only a little...
~) I'm still in the very middle of PBS!
loreen . I am also tempted at times to feel that there is no hope left for Ennis. I do think we get a sense of this hopelessness in the ss. But I would like to think that the final scenes in the movie offer us some consolation of hope...
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Dear Cleo,
:^^)
I know that u are, and I am very grateful that I have a place to heal my wounds. It gets easier sometimes, but mostly i am not myself anymore. I know it's wrong - a movie should not kill one, but BBM is on the right way to do that to me. I'll have to find a way to breathe, to be me again, with no Ennis& Jack in my life. I'll just have to put them in some small pocket of my heart, where they'd do no such a harm as now! I told you that I got a medical situation cause BBM, and that shows how serious this situation had become for me! ^f^
LF scenes?? What is it TPE?
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TPE, hope this is not unpolite - are you a guy or a girl? ^f^
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TPE, hope this is not unpolite - are you a guy or a girl? ^f^
OT: I am a guy. (See the meeting threads for pictures.)
Back on topic: LF -- Lightning Flat.
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I understand your sentiments Loreen. In fact, find the LF scenes with John Twist sort of repugnant -- as if we are not in the presence of Jack's father! Mama Twist's sense of opression is very hard to watch -- the part when she holds her neck close to the end of Ennis's stay. It is as if she is suffocating...
Her behavior is extremelly suppressed! And any viewer can understand that it's because John Twist! I am sure that he wasn't treating her well. She LOVED her son, but had a very narrow area to show it in front of her husband. I felt for her. She's a darling mother who lost her dear son. She seemed so empty, but as if Ennis gave her a bit of hope, a part of her son which he preserved in his soul. She took him as her soulmate. They both shared a deep and loveling memory of Jack, and they had a chance to exchange those memories. :ghug:
OT: I am a guy. (See the meeting threads for pictures.)
Back on topic: LF -- Lightning Flat.
I will. ^f^ Thanks!
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Her behavior is extremelly suppressed! And any viewer can understand that it's because John Twist! I am sure that he wasn't treating her well. She LOVED her son, but had a very narrow area to show it in front of her husband. I felt for her. She's a darling mother who lost her dear son. She seemed so empty, but as if Ennis gave her a bit of hope, a part of her son which he preserved in his soul. She took him as her soulmate. They both shared a deep and loveling memory of Jack, and they had a chance to exchange those memories. :ghug:
Wonderful acting here! I think her suffering made the scenes in LF even more unpleasant. And the fact that she and Ennis couldn't express themselves fully in from of John Twist was maddening.
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Wonderful acting here! I think her suffering made the scenes in LF even more unpleasant. And the fact that she and Ennis couldn't express themselves fully in from of John Twist was maddening.
You're so right here! :clap:
The LF scene was highly unpleasant! But I believe that (as this phenomena is known in medicine) Ennis and Jack's Ma will establish a special relationship in the future! They'll nurture each other's soul as they both share the same thing - deep love and unfortunate lost of the essence of their lives - Jack!
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Another thing I've noticed: when Jack's Ma takes shirts from Ennis's hands to put it in the paper bag, she deliberately gently touched his hand, and then slow down her motions to absorb the feeling. She was touching Jack's hand through Ennis's! It is so touching! I feel for her so deeply! :\'(
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You're so right here! :clap:
The LF scene was highly unpleasant! But I believe that (as this phenomena is known in medicine) Ennis and Jack's Ma will establish a special relationship in the future! They'll nurture each other's soul as they both share the same thing - deep love and unfortunate lost of the essence of their lives - Jack!
You're so right,Loreen¡ :clap: I think this is what makes this scene fairly more bearable,no?; to see how Ennis and Mrs. Twist will relieve and help each other to overcome the lost of the person they had love the most.What's more,it seems to me that,from that very moment onwards,she will be the mother Ennis hardly could remember and he will be,somehow,another son for her.
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You're so right,Loreen¡ :clap: I think this is what makes this scene fairly more bearable,no?; to see how Ennis and Mrs. Twist will relieve and help each other to overcome the lost of the person they had love the most.What's more,it seems to me that,from that very moment onwards,she will be the mother Ennis hardly could remember and he will be,somehow,another son for her.
:ghug: :^^)
MPJ %) for this! That sounds so comforting! ^f^
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Yes, as unpleasant as it was to have to see Jack's dad, it was worth it all to see the love from his mom. I loved her the 1st time I saw her, & I think that Ennis understood that she accepted him. I also wish that she could've gave Ennis at least a few of Jack's ashes, but I'm sure she was afraid of him.
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:ghug: :^^)
MPJ %) for this! That sounds so comforting! ^f^
Oh,you don't need to thank me,hun;i've said what I feel¡. :ghug: Yes,I think it's comforting for both of them to live and for all of us to watch;the same than we get some comfort in seeing how Ennis comes to terms with Jack's love and vicerversa,as a kind of relief for his lost.
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Wonderful acting here! I think her suffering made the scenes in LF even more unpleasant. And the fact that she and Ennis couldn't express themselves fully in from of John Twist was maddening.
That would be incredible, if we could see Ennis and Ma Twist alone together, without the old man. What a scene that might have been. As it was, it was so restrained...yet it spoke so loudly!
kathy
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That would be incredible, if we could see Ennis and Ma Twist alone together, without the old man. What a scene that might have been. As it was, it was so restrained...yet it spoke so loudly!
kathy
Oh, yes Kathy! :ghug:
That would be a moment to remember! Very good point! ^f^
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There's one scene I've been thinking about, that makes me very uncomfortable. That is when Jack came to see Ennis, so happy, so full of expectations... Ennis just introduced him to his daughters and sent him away...
I can not understand this kind of behaviour. Someone drives 14 hours to see you, and you don't even give him a glass of water?? &*&
I noticed Ennis's head down after Jack left, but why let him go so quickly anyway?
Was is possible to go out together with girls? To sit and to talk something, neutrally?
Also, who was in the white truck that was driving on the road? Why E&J looked at the truck so significantly? &*&
I know that people say that 3 things one can never hide: cough, poverty and love... maybe Ennis was afraid that his love would be so obvious???
I don't know, but I felt so much for Jack there. Even so humiliated he preserves his pride and just said: OK, see you next month! Dear Jack!
Another scene I dislike - him with a male prostitute ( %( )... When they went into the darkness, camera just stayed there with a Mexican music in background in order to amplify the effect of Jack's despair! :\'( :\'( (Good job Lee!)
I agree Loreen…Long time back I had mentioned not liking this scene too…Jack drove for 14 long hours to meet Ennis…He was happy as Ennis was divorced as that increased his hopes for them to live together…It was his greatest dream or rather only dream...When he met Ennis he wanted to spend time with him, hold him, kiss him and just be with him and Ennis did not let that happen...Its obvious that Ennis was too scared that his daughters would see his love for Jack or someone around will to see it..and so he tells Jack that he cant make it..
Jack’s facial expression and the movement of his tongues makes me get chills down my spine..i am so hurt to his him hurting so much..God..it gets hard..For a moment am a little angry at Ennis for doing that to Jack but the next moment I feel sorry for Ennis as he is a victim of his fears..He is scared to be called “queer”,,he is scared that his family will think ill about him…he has so many fears and so is not able to just follow is heart..My heart goes out to both of them as they both r struggling and suffering their miseries :\'( :\'(
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I agree Loreen…Long time back I had mentioned not liking this scene too…Jack drove for 14 long hours to meet Ennis…He was happy as Ennis was divorced as that increased his hopes for them to live together…It was his greatest dream or rather only dream...When he met Ennis he wanted to spend time with him, hold him, kiss him and just be with him and Ennis did not let that happen...Its obvious that Ennis was too scared that his daughters would see his love for Jack or someone around will to see it..and so he tells Jack that he cant make it..
Jack’s facial expression and the movement of his tongues makes me get chills down my spine..i am so hurt to his him hurting so much..God..it gets hard..For a moment am a little angry at Ennis for doing that to Jack but the next moment I feel sorry for Ennis as he is a victim of his fears..He is scared to be called “queer”,,he is scared that his family will think ill about him…he has so many fears and so is not able to just follow is heart..My heart goes out to both of them as they both r struggling and suffering their miseries :\'( :\'(
Dear Cleo, we often feel the same! :ghug:
That scene is so despaering for Jack, so heartbreaking...
I think that's possible that Ennis never understood the power of their mutual feelings! Until the moment he found the shirts in the hidden conmpartment, he thought about their relationship as of "this thing". And I believe that the shirts were the breaking point - for him and for me! I broke there too! :\'( :\'( :\'(
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Dear Cleo,
:^^)
I know that u are, and I am very grateful that I have a place to heal my wounds. It gets easier sometimes, but mostly i am not myself anymore. I know it's wrong - a movie should not kill one, but BBM is on the right way to do that to me. I'll have to find a way to breathe, to be me again, with no Ennis& Jack in my life. I'll just have to put them in some small pocket of my heart, where they'd do no such a harm as now! I told you that I got a medical situation cause BBM, and that shows how serious this situation had become for me! ^f^
Dear Loreen,
Please take good care of yourself..…I can very well feel your pain ….I have also been depressed before…I know life is not the same after BBM but I am sure that there is so much love here that u will heal your wounds… We have all found true meaning in life from BBM…BBM teaches us the strong force of love and how much important it is in life…I will never ever forget that….I will always have the love for Ennis and Jack alive in my heart and will cherish that forever....They have taught me a lot..
Being a very positive person by nature I have found meaning in all these miseries…I think that even death cant destroy their love..Ennis lived his life with Jack as his angel....Jack is always there and will never leave Ennis's side..What can be more pure than that ?...Nothing else…
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Being a very positive person by nature I have found meaning in all these miseries…I think that even death cant destroy their love..Ennis lived his life with Jack as his angel....Jack is always there and will never leave Ennis's side..What can be more pure than that ?...Nothing else…
:clap:
:ghug:
:^^) :t)
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There's only one scene that bothered me, and that was the one near the beginning showing the railway train passing through town - it was ok for a railfan like myself until I saw there was no caboose - big boo-boo - in that era all freight trains dragged a caboose or crummy or van, whatever you want to call it.
I was surprised that one of the editors didn't catch that. They could have cut the scene just before the end of the train came into view - on the other hand, perhaps it had significance in that there seems to be no end to these miserable stories of discrimination and hiding in the closet and families torn apart because gay and lesbian people are under so much pressure to marry heterosexually.
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You're so right here! :clap:
The LF scene was highly unpleasant! But I believe that (as this phenomena is known in medicine) Ennis and Jack's Ma will establish a special relationship in the future! They'll nurture each other's soul as they both share the same thing - deep love and unfortunate lost of the essence of their lives - Jack!
That would be incredible, if we could see Ennis and Ma Twist alone together, without the old man. What a scene that might have been. As it was, it was so restrained...yet it spoke so loudly!
kathy
I want to think that the invitation Mrs. Twist extended to te departing Ennis would sooner or later be accepted. But in the two years between that and Alma Jr.'s wedding, it would seem that Ennis kept to himself entirely. Is this evidence that the LF episode was kind of traumatic for Ennis? Still, I would like to think that inevitably, Ennis would re-establish contact with Mrs. Twist. Perhaps this is only wishful thinking on my part -- to give the scenes in LF an extended meaning, and not make it look hopeless and unpleasant.
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There's only one scene that bothered me, and that was the one near the beginning showing the railway train passing through town - it was ok for a railfan like myself until I saw there was no caboose - big boo-boo - in that era all freight trains dragged a caboose or crummy or van, whatever you want to call it.
I was surprised that one of the editors didn't catch that. They could have cut the scene just before the end of the train came into view - on the other hand, perhaps it had significance in that there seems to be no end to these miserable stories of discrimination and hiding in the closet and families torn apart because gay and lesbian people are under so much pressure to marry heterosexually.
Welcome to the forum, cnr1949.
Very interesting and insightful. I don't know if there is any intended symbolism here. Because BBM was filmed with a relatively tight budget, it is not surprising that goofs and editing flaws have been noted. But this is a particularly interesting point. Did you check it this error had been reported on IMDB?
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I want to think that the invitation Mrs. Twist extended to te departing Ennis would sooner or later be accepted. But in the two years between that and Alma Jr.'s wedding, it would seem that Ennis kept to himself entirely. Is this evidence that the LF episode was kind of traumatic for Ennis? Still, I would like to think that inevitably, Ennis would re-establish contact with Mrs. Twist. Perhaps this is only wishful thinking on my part -- to give the scenes in LF an extended meaning, and not make it look hopeless and unpleasant.
I have to addmit that I did not figure out that there is a 2 year gap between LF episode and Junior's wedding. How do you know this... I can't count it clearly...
IMO, should be a little while after LF episode ... :s) :-\\
Please, help! :)
PS: I believe that LF scene has it extention... Ii just has to! ^^) ;)
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I have to addmit that I did not figure out that there is a 2 year gap between LF episode and Junior's wedding. How do you know this... I can't count it clearly...
IMO, should be a little while after LF episode ... :s) :-\\
Please, help! :)
We know it first from the screenplay, where the dates indicate a 2 year lapse. This is supported by the dialog, where it was clear that Ennis had not seen Jr. for two years.
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We know it first from the screenplay, where the dates indicate a 2 year lapse. This is supported by the dialog, where it was clear that Ennis had not seen Jr. for two years.
Well, I'll check it again, because I have to admit that by the end of the movie my feelings become too much for me, and I see only pain and sorrow, paying not so much attention to the details. I even skip some difficult parts! :\'(
:t) :ghug:
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Well, I'll check it again, because I have to admit that by the end of the movie my feelings become too much for me, and I see only pain and sorrow, paying not so much attention to the details. I even skip some difficult parts! :\'(
:t) :ghug:
loreen, there is even some controversy about the timings in the last scenes. Look at several threads posted about the Timings in the Last Scenes. It may be several pages behind now, as they are old. Look also at the index thread. :)
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I can watch the first half but I cant go on when all the drama starts... I have only watched the movie fully once... If I ever do watch it again, then I hope it will be with a Brokie!
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I can watch the first half but I cant go on when all the drama starts... I have only watched the movie fully once... If I ever do watch it again, then I hope it will be with a Brokie!
I understand! Oh, how I do! ^f^ I often rewind some difficult parts too... :\'(
... but always repeat SNIT and reunion kiss! <^(
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I can watch the first half but I cant go on when all the drama starts... I have only watched the movie fully once... If I ever do watch it again, then I hope it will be with a Brokie!
The movie falls into two parts, the first when they are together alone on the mountain ,up above and away from the rest of the world. The second when they come down and other people make things complicated and difficult. I stop the DVD half way through too.
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There's only one scene that bothered me, and that was the one near the beginning showing the railway train passing through town - it was ok for a railfan like myself until I saw there was no caboose - big boo-boo - in that era all freight trains dragged a caboose or crummy or van, whatever you want to call it.
I was surprised that one of the editors didn't catch that. They could have cut the scene just before the end of the train came into view - on the other hand, perhaps it had significance in that there seems to be no end to these miserable stories of discrimination and hiding in the closet and families torn apart because gay and lesbian people are under so much pressure to marry heterosexually.
Welcome, CNR. Interesting that just a technical detail that refers to something we know about would of course jump out at us. If that's the only "flaw" you found, that's pretty good. Might there be some other explanation? That it was just part of a freight train on a side route or something, going to meet up with the rest of the train? Not that I know anything about trains, except they're wonderful.
But what with so much subtle meaning, symbol, metaphor in this film, your explanation fits into that -- that's a wonderful observation.
Born in 1949? Or is that refer to something else? If born in 1949, then welcome to another of our esteemed elders. :*(
kathy
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I want to think that the invitation Mrs. Twist extended to te departing Ennis would sooner or later be accepted. But in the two years between that and Alma Jr.'s wedding, it would seem that Ennis kept to himself entirely. Is this evidence that the LF episode was kind of traumatic for Ennis? Still, I would like to think that inevitably, Ennis would re-establish contact with Mrs. Twist. Perhaps this is only wishful thinking on my part -- to give the scenes in LF an extended meaning, and not make it look hopeless and unpleasant.
Thomas, was it two years?? Interesting. I'd never really been aware of the timeline for that period.
I do think it was beautiful to put that in, Mrs. Twist's invitation for him to come back. I love the idea of putting that meaning in there, as you said, to give us the hope that sometime those two who loved Jack Twist would see each other again.
kathy
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loreen, there is even some controversy about the timings in the last scenes. Look at several threads posted about the Timings in the Last Scenes. It may be several pages behind now, as they are old. Look also at the index thread. :)
I've never even been to that thread! See, 2-1/2 years here, and there are still threads I've not yet come across! Undiscovered treasures still to be found...
kathy
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I have to addmit that I did not figure out that there is a 2 year gap between LF episode and Junior's wedding. How do you know this... I can't count it clearly...
IMO, should be a little while after LF episode ... :s) :-\\
Please, help! :)
PS: I believe that LF scene has it extention... Ii just has to! ^^) ;)
Baby, you can see that if you read the Screenplay. Also in the SS Ennis said to Jack, during their last night together, that Junior was 17 years old. Then when Junior went to visit Ennis, Ennis said a line talking about Alma's age: 19 years old now.
Hope this helps. ^f^
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I think I've avoided this thread...
It would be very difficult for me to know my least favorite scene. I'll throw this out there though:
The delivery room scene with Jack, Laureen and her folks. The dad particularly sickens me in many ways.. hard to really pinpoint. He's just so closed in and lamed with convention. There's something perversely simple about him. I think I'll stop right there. Yeah, not my favorite scene - - The Thanksgiving scene is a little more tolerable as the center of attention is averted off of the bastard. ;D
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I think I've avoided this thread...
It would be very difficult for me to know my least favorite scene. I'll throw this out there though:
The delivery room scene with Jack, Laureen and her folks. The dad particularly sickens me in many ways.. hard to really pinpoint. He's just so closed in and lamed with convention. There's something perversely simple about him. I think I'll stop right there. Yeah, not my favorite scene - - The Thanksgiving scene is a little more tolerable as the center of attention is averted off of the bastard. ;D
LOL I was cheering for Jack when he screamed at that freak in the Thanksgiving scene! The whole turning on and off the TV was funny though! ;D
I really hated that delivery room scene aswell... Laureen's dad was trating Jack like he was just a useless piece of trash! >:(
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LOL I was cheering for Jack when he screamed at that freak in the Thanksgiving scene! The whole turning on and off the TV was funny though! ;D
I really hated that delivery room scene aswell... Laureen's dad was trating Jack like he was just a useless piece of trash! >:(
Yeah I hear ya! It was something that just had to be done. Jack probably would have exploded or boiled over otherwise - - ... Hey wait a minute, that is what happened. %&)
Well... good for him! ;D That old sonuvabitch had it comin' :s)
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Yeah I hear ya! It was something that just had to be done. Jack probably would have exploded or boiled over otherwise - - ... Hey wait a minute, that is what happened. %&)
Well... good for him! ;D That old sonuvabitch had it comin' :s)
:8 You could tell that Loreen was about to start laughing too ;D I love the way Jack said "You sit down before I knock your ignorant ass into next week"! :8 The guy's expression after was priceless!
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It sure was! I also think it revealed a sliver of his deeply buried fear of being alone; what was he to do after that demand from Jack? Oppose it? Really? In Jack's place? Maybe he finally felt cornered, closed in. Maybe his limited response was a reflection of what he puts onto others.
I start to wonder what wavelength that old fucker is riding away from fear, or from what, and how long he's been riding it. Something tells me he could use a heck of a lot more reality checks than this Thanksgiving one. Maybe he should be grateful he's even got anyone/thing to be thankful for.
On a lighter note, the bird looked really freakin' sexy :d)
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:8 Oh that Turkey looked so effing tasty! :d) lol
I get really depressed after the scene where Ennis and Alma are in the kitchen after the Thanksgiving dinner and then when Alma starts talking about Jack and Ennis being together- It was really emotional and Michelle Williams's acting was just AMAZING! :clap:
It really hurt me from inside becasue I cant stand watching tough family scenes like that- reminds me of my family :\'( But I also felt really bad for Alma Jr. becasue all she wanted was to be with her dad and I really hated Ennis for not letting her live with him... She was very understanding and mature...
Oh! And I loved Jack's "angry" look at the dinner table for some reason :d) >:D ;D
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:8 Oh that Turkey looked so effing tasty! :d) lol
I get really depressed after the scene where Ennis and Alma are in the kitchen after the Thanksgiving dinner and then when Alma starts talking about Jack and Ennis being together- It was really emotional and Michelle Williams's acting was just AMAZING! :clap:
It really hurt me from inside becasue I cant stand watching tough family scenes like that- reminds me of my family :\'( But I also felt really bad for Alma Jr. becasue all she wanted was to be with her dad and I really hated Ennis for not letting her live with him... She was very understanding and mature...
Oh! And I loved Jack's "angry" look at the dinner table for some reason :d) >:D ;D
That's a good point, Blue. I thought the same thing about her in the truck after bringing up that idea. Her insights I think were very advanced anyway, and she was mature about it. She was surprisingly not "needy" even after the failed attempt to live with her dad. I think ultimately she just wanted to understand him and vice versa. I also think her dad's eyes, when he answered no, gave her A LOT to chew on.
Also, his eyes and response here play very similarly to them in Last Confrontation when he tells Jack he can't meet as soon as figured: "I'm sure sorry, you know I am" :s)
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Also, his eyes and response here play very similarly to them in Last Confrontation when he tells Jack he can't meet as soon as figured: "I'm sure sorry, you know I am" :s)
Oh that scene was hard to watch... I admit that I started crying when Ennis had his breakdown and Jack was trying to hug him and confort him... <^( Wow... That was really tense! :-\\
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Oh that scene was hard to watch... I admit that I started crying when Ennis had his breakdown and Jack was trying to hug him and confort him... <^( Wow... That was really tense! :-\\
Yeah it was. I have cried during so many moments of the film (and short story). There was no way I could keep the tears from welling up in my eyes in the theater during those scenes, this being one of them. I felt like I'd boil over I was so nuked during SNIT - - what a beautifully real scene that was. <^(
However, my gut wanted to turn inside out when they slowly departed that summer.
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Yeah it was. I have cried during so many moments of the film (and short story). There was no way I could keep the tears from welling up in my eyes in the theater during those scenes, this being one of them. I felt like I'd boil over I was so nuked during SNIT - - what a beautifully real scene that was. <^(
However, my gut wanted to turn inside out when they slowly departed that summer.
Yeah... I felt so sick after that scene(^) And of course the whole phone call about Jack death KILLED me! :\'( :-\\ But I cired the hardest when Ennis went to Jack parents house and then thoughts started spinning in my head... I was thinking to myself that Jack was a normal person with 2 loving parents and how horrible is it to take someone life's away ( I believed that what Ennis thought of Jacks murder was true) just becasue he was a little bit diffrent! It was so sad to see Jack mother cry... Loosing a child of your own must be horrible :\'( Probably the worst thing ever! :(
Also the scene with the two shirts in Jacks bedroom and Jack's little toys made me cry harder :\'(
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Yeah... I felt so sick after that scene(^) And of course the whole phone call about Jack death KILLED me! :\'( :-\\ But I cired the hardest when Ennis went to Jack parents house and then thoughts started spinning in my head... I was thinking to myself that Jack was a normal person with 2 loving parents and how horrible is it to take someone life's away ( I believed that what Ennis thought of Jacks murder was true) just becasue he was a little bit diffrent! It was so sad to see Jack mother cry... Loosing a child of your own must be horrible :\'( Probably the worst thing ever! :(
Also the scene with the two shirts in Jacks bedroom and Jack's little toys made me cry harder :\'(
Me too, man. That is the epitome of it all, imo. My chest was like a ticking time bomb upstairs with the little preserved space of Jack's where the shirts and misc. things were kept together and in a way trapped in time and ageless which to me is painfully ironic given that the main man has physically left. It's about as hard for me to watch the final trailer scene too, it really is, when Ennis is touching (almost examining) the shirts hanging up and the postcard, and crying. It's such a surreal and awfully striking pain, especially once the grass is shown being combed so freely outside the window in the wind. :\'(
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Me too, man. That is the epitome of it all, imo. My chest was like a ticking time bomb upstairs with the little preserved space of Jack's where the shirts and misc. things were kept together and in a way trapped in time and ageless which to me is painfully ironic given that the main man has physically left. It's about as hard for me to watch the final trailer scene too, it really is, when Ennis is touching (almost examining) the shirts hanging up and the postcard, and crying. It's such a surreal and awfully striking pain, especially once the grass is shown being combed so freely outside the window in the wind. :\'(
Damn, Justin.... :\'( :\'( :\'(
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Me too, man. That is the epitome of it all, imo. My chest was like a ticking time bomb upstairs with the little preserved space of Jack's where the shirts and misc. things were kept together and in a way trapped in time and ageless which to me is painfully ironic given that the main man has physically left. It's about as hard for me to watch the final trailer scene too, it really is, when Ennis is touching (almost examining) the shirts hanging up and the postcard, and crying. It's such a surreal and awfully striking pain, especially once the grass is shown being combed so freely outside the window in the wind. :\'(
I really hated the fact that we saw all of Jack's belongings when he was a little boy and it hurt me so much that he was happy and well ALL those years and now... For the most pathetic excuse, murdered... Shows how unhuman people are :\'( :\'( :\'(
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Yeah... I felt so sick after that scene(^) And of course the whole phone call about Jack death KILLED me! :\'( :-\\ But I cired the hardest when Ennis went to Jack parents house and then thoughts started spinning in my head... I was thinking to myself that Jack was a normal person with 2 loving parents and how horrible is it to take someone life's away ( I believed that what Ennis thought of Jacks murder was true) just becasue he was a little bit diffrent! It was so sad to see Jack mother cry... Loosing a child of your own must be horrible :\'( Probably the worst thing ever! :(
Also the scene with the two shirts in Jacks bedroom and Jack's little toys made me cry harder :\'(
BM, those 2 shirts were a biggest strike for my heart in all the movie. Everything is in them - Lovely days on Brokeback, their love, wrestling, comforting, their hug, 20 years of hidden love, everlasting memento for Jack and later for Ennis, and Ennis's blood as an enormous sacrifice he would have to take during years of his lonely life without Jack! KILLER!! (t) (t) (t)
I can not decide if I would like for deleted scene (where Ennis cries after finding the shirts) to be in the movie or not! The scene is already so devastating for me itself that I couldn't bare no additional the pain. On the other hand it would be interesting to see Ennis finally openly shows his feelings!
Two hugging shirts are killing me over and over again.... :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
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BM, those 2 shirts were a biggest strike for my heart in all the movie. Everything is in them - Lovely days on Brokeback, their love, wrestling, comforting, their hug, 20 years of hidden love, everlasting memento for Jack and later for Ennis, and Ennis's blood as an enormous sacrifice he would have to take during years of his lonely life without Jack! KILLER!! (t) (t) (t)
I can not decide if I would like for deleted scene (where Ennis cries after finding the shirts) to be in the movie or not! The scene is already so devastating for me itself that I couldn't bare no additional the pain. On the other hand it would be interesting to see Ennis finally openly shows his feelings!
Two hugging shirts are killing me over and over again.... :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
If I had the two shirts then I would hang them on the top of my closet :\'(
I think the deleted scene should of been in the movie!
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I think I've avoided this thread...
It would be very difficult for me to know my least favorite scene. I'll throw this out there though:
The delivery room scene with Jack, Laureen and her folks. The dad particularly sickens me in many ways.. hard to really pinpoint. He's just so closed in and lamed with convention. There's something perversely simple about him. I think I'll stop right there. Yeah, not my favorite scene - - The Thanksgiving scene is a little more tolerable as the center of attention is averted off of the bastard. ;D
OT, that is the scene I dislike the most also. I can hardly look at it, ugh, Mr. and Mrs. Newsome both, and how he treats Jack. I think that's in Lureen's bedroom though, not the delivery room.
kathy
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:8 Oh that Turkey looked so effing tasty! :d) lol
I get really depressed after the scene where Ennis and Alma are in the kitchen after the Thanksgiving dinner and then when Alma starts talking about Jack and Ennis being together- It was really emotional and Michelle Williams's acting was just AMAZING! :clap:
It really hurt me from inside becasue I cant stand watching tough family scenes like that- reminds me of my family :\'( But I also felt really bad for Alma Jr. becasue all she wanted was to be with her dad and I really hated Ennis for not letting her live with him... She was very understanding and mature...
Oh! And I loved Jack's "angry" look at the dinner table for some reason :d) >:D ;D
I agree, Blue, that was very difficult to watch, especially for some of us who cringe at scenes such as this, just bordering on physical violence. It still makes me cringe, even though I know he manages to hold himself back from actually hitting her.
kathy
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OT, that is the scene I dislike the most also. I can hardly look at it, ugh, Mr. and Mrs. Newsome both, and how he treats Jack. I think that's in Lureen's bedroom though, not the delivery room.
kathy
Oh, that's probably right. Me just over generalizing..
I too don't really care for Lureen's mom. So cut and dry. Like a slave to the whims of her husband, I gather. :-\\
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Oh, that's probably right. Me just over generalizing..
I too don't really care for Lureen's mom. So cut and dry. Like a slave to the whims of her husband, I gather. :-\\
True, about Lureen's mom. But then, we could say the same thing about Jack's mom. But she is a woman full of feeling, whereas we don't get that at all from Lureen's mom.
kathy
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True, about Lureen's mom. But then, we could say the same thing about Jack's mom. But she is a woman full of feeling, whereas we don't get that at all from Lureen's mom.
kathy
No doubt. Come to think of it I don't even remember seeing Lureen's mom's eyes dead on. I don't really like Jack's dad either. Worse still might just be Ennis' dad. Never even got to see his eyes whatsoever. Not that we'd need to.
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The movie falls into two parts, the first when they are together alone on the mountain ,up above and away from the rest of the world. The second when they come down and other people make things complicated and difficult. I stop the DVD half way through too.
Welcome, perarduaadastra.
And you echo the feelings of many people here. It is very difficult to watch the later part, even though we have such beautiful scenes embedded in it such as the Reunion kiss and the Dozy Embrace...
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Thomas, was it two years?? Interesting. I'd never really been aware of the timeline for that period.
I do think it was beautiful to put that in, Mrs. Twist's invitation for him to come back. I love the idea of putting that meaning in there, as you said, to give us the hope that sometime those two who loved Jack Twist would see each other again.
kathy
Thanks Kathy. I do think that the invitation was put there on purpose, to soften an otherwise unforgiving and difficult scene to watch...
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I've never even been to that thread! See, 2-1/2 years here, and there are still threads I've not yet come across! Undiscovered treasures still to be found...
kathy
OT: Kathy, I'll try to find it and post a reference...
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I think I've avoided this thread...
It would be very difficult for me to know my least favorite scene. I'll throw this out there though:
The delivery room scene with Jack, Laureen and her folks. The dad particularly sickens me in many ways.. hard to really pinpoint. He's just so closed in and lamed with convention. There's something perversely simple about him. I think I'll stop right there. Yeah, not my favorite scene - - The Thanksgiving scene is a little more tolerable as the center of attention is averted off of the bastard. ;D
Jack really looked very much the outsider in that scene. It is our introduction to Lureen's father no. So overbearing, and his behavior and comments were so insulting to Jack...
I like the words you use: "perversely simple".
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:8 Oh that Turkey looked so effing tasty! :d) lol
I get really depressed after the scene where Ennis and Alma are in the kitchen after the Thanksgiving dinner and then when Alma starts talking about Jack and Ennis being together- It was really emotional and Michelle Williams's acting was just AMAZING! :clap:
It really hurt me from inside becasue I cant stand watching tough family scenes like that- reminds me of my family :\'( But I also felt really bad for Alma Jr. becasue all she wanted was to be with her dad and I really hated Ennis for not letting her live with him... She was very understanding and mature...
Oh! And I loved Jack's "angry" look at the dinner table for some reason :d) >:D ;D
That scene was a brutally intense scene, as well as the fight scene outside the bar that followed this. Brutal. It is for this scene in the kitchen that MW got the nomination, I believe...
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That scene was a brutally intense scene, as well as the fight scene outside the bar that followed this. Brutal. It is for this scene in the kitchen that MW got the nomination, I believe...
I think we could all feel the sense of innocence and vulnerability of Alma in this scene and she was just trembling with sorrow... :\'(
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I think we could all feel the sense of innocence and vulnerability of Alma in this scene and she was just trembling with sorrow... :\'(
I have to admit that I find very strange that Alma kept silence for many years, and when everything was over she just get the urge to provoke Ennis!! Why? She could've speak when it was worthy. Now, their marriage was a past tense, nothing to solve, nothing to change, but suddenly she wants to make him uncomfortable... maybe it was a kind of revenge for all the years of bitterness.
Anyway, if me, I'd solve the problem immediately or not solve the problem, but I'd never wait for so many years to revenge.
Ennis's reaction was expected. I think that this scene is acceptable in the manner of their characters. At least, he had a power to pull back and not to hit Alma.
MW's acting was in the same range as Heath's or Jake's! She was goooood! ^f^
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I have to admit that I find very strange that Alma kept silence for many years, and when everything was over she just get the urge to provoke Ennis!! Why? She could've speak when it was worthy. Now, their marriage was a past tense, nothing to solve, nothing to change, but suddenly she wants to make him uncomfortable... maybe it was a kind of revenge for all the years of bitterness.
Anyway, if me, I'd solve the problem immediately or not solve the problem, but I'd never wait for so many years to revenge.
Ennis's reaction was expected. I think that this scene is acceptable in the manner of their characters. At least, he had a power to pull back and not to hit Alma.
MW's acting was in the same range as Heath's or Jake's! She was goooood! ^f^
I felt bad for her since the moment we first saw her when Ennis and her were in the snow... :\'( I could tell that she was about to be hurt... Its kinda weird that in the movie there are only really innocent and really bad people and no one in between!
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I felt bad for her since the moment we first saw her when Ennis and her were in the snow... :\'( I could tell that she was about to be hurt... Its kinda weird that in the movie there are only really innocent and really bad people and no one in between!
I was so attached to Ennis and Jack's love, that (unlike my ordinary reactions) I just didn't feel so much for Alma! Shame on me! ^*) ^^)
As I said in one of my first posts, as much as I liked Lureen, I never felt so much for Alma... I know it's not fair, but can't help it. ???
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I was so attached to Ennis and Jack's love, that (unlike my ordinary reactions) I just didn't feel so much for Alma! Shame on me! ^*) ^^)
As I said in one of my first posts, as much as I liked Lureen, I never felt so much for Alma... I know it's not fair, but can't help it. ???
I felt sorry for everyone the first time around... Except for Lureen. She was just odd.... No sadness from the news of Jack's death... Nothing.
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I felt sorry for everyone the first time around... Except for Lureen. She was just odd.... No sadness from the news of Jack's death... Nothing.
BM, I have to disagree about Lureen. :*(
All her life she just knew (as women do) that something was wrong, but she never put a pressure on Jack. He was leaving and coming home as he wanted. She was a little distant form Jack, but I strongly believe that Jack was HER MAN!
Just watch again the phone call with Ennis. She sighted when started to talk about Jack's death. She was not as cold as she looked like. When Ennis told her that he and Jack were herding sheep one summer 1963 on Brokeback mountain - the place Jack noted as her favorite place where he wants to be buried, she almost started to cry. She lived with Jack so many years, but still he had one summer hearding sheep mountain as his favorite place. I have a feeling that, at that very moment SHE KNEW!! She understood everything, and continued to talk with Ennis with anger, as Jack obviously loved Ennis more than her! She was deeply hurt, still remained proud. When she said to Ennis to go to LF, she was very bitter. At last she even hang-up on Ennis so unexpectedly.
So, I believe that always balancing between Jack, his strange trips and behaviour, and her father who obviously hated Jack, her job, and all the things she had to finish on the daily basis, was not easy at all. Still, she remained very permissive to Jack! He was free to do anything. And that's why I like her.
One other thing I'd like to poin out is Ennis's confession about the Brokeback mountain "mistery"! When he first in 1967 got the postcard from Jack, he did not want to tell Alma about Jack and BBM when she asked. In those days this was buried inside of him, and he didn't want to, or couldn't speak about BBM, even just "acceptable" parts. He felt his experience there so intensive that he was affraid to say a word about it!
Now, when Lureen mentioned Brokeback, he said very easily that Brokeback mountain is the place where he and jack were herding sheep one summer. That showes that Jack's death killed much more in him than anyone else or anything else could. Nothing was important any more. Jack died! Ennis was not affraid to speak about BBM, as nothing had meaning anymore! Dear Ennis! :\'(
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BM, I have to disagree about Lureen. :*(
All her life she just knew (as women do) that something was wrong, but she never put a pressure on Jack. He was leaving and coming home as he wanted. She was a little distant form Jack, but I strongly believe that Jack was HER MAN!
Just watch again the phone call with Ennis. She sighted when started to talk about Jack's death. She was not as cold as she looked like. When Ennis told her that he and Jack were herding sheep one summer 1963 on Brokeback mountain - the place Jack noted as her favorite place where he wants to be buried, she almost started to cry. She lived with Jack so many years, but still he had one summer hearding sheep mountain as his favorite place. I have a feeling that, at that very moment SHE KNEW!! She understood everything, and continued to talk with Ennis with anger, as Jack obviously loved Ennis more than her! She was deeply hurt, still remained proud. When she said to Ennis to go to LF, she was very bitter. At last she even hang-up on Ennis so unexpectedly.
So, I believe that always balancing between Jack, his strange trips and behaviour, and her father who obviously hated Jack, her job, and all the things she had to finish on the daily basis, was not easy at all. Still, she remained very permissive to Jack! He was free to do anything. And that's why I like her.
One other thing I'd like to poin out is Ennis's confession about the Brokeback mountain "mistery"! When he first in 1967 got the postcard from Jack, he did not want to tell Alma about Jack and BBM when she asked. In those days this was buried inside of him, and he didn't want to, or couldn't speak about BBM, even just "acceptable" parts. He felt his experience there so intensive that he was affraid to say a word about it!
Now, when Lureen mentioned Brokeback, he said very easily that Brokeback mountain is the place where he and jack were herding sheep one summer. That showes that Jack's death killed much more in him than anyone else or anything else could. Nothing was important any more. Jack died! Ennis was not affraid to speak about BBM, as nothing had meaning anymore! Dear Ennis! :\'(
I guess that Lureen was one of the strongest people in the movie! :( She went through alot but was more understanding than Alma! :)
I cant believe that Ennis had to live that way... I wonder if he tried to end his own life after that... But his daughters and everyone else who could need his help... I dont know... It's just really sad...
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No doubt. Come to think of it I don't even remember seeing Lureen's mom's eyes dead on. I don't really like Jack's dad either. Worse still might just be Ennis' dad. Never even got to see his eyes whatsoever. Not that we'd need to.
We saw her eyes in the scene when the baby was brought home. I feel she and the "stud duck" were cut from the same cloth. It's just the way she demeaned Jack by going on about the baby formula, a gift, as if Jack was'nt able to provide basic needs for the child. Did'nt like her. And then the old man, going on about how much the baby resembled him and not Jack.
Well, within 8mos. more likely before then, Jack had figured out that he did'nt belong and sought Ennis out again. I think Jack wanted to make sense of his life.
Certainly loreen, Lureen was a girl who was used to getting what she wanted, right down to a husband. She was *daddy's little girl" in a sense, but just feel she wanted and lived a *fairytale* life for a while until the thrill of it all wore off. She grew distant from Jack and put concentration on her work. Jack finds himself just existing, not really living a happy life. Soon they grow resentful and bitter. If she suspected anything about the true nature of Jack's relationship with Ennis, she did'nt let on. Personally, I think she bought the *fishing buddy* story. Even when she questioned Jack about Ennis, she showed no sign that she thought Ennis was nothing more than a good fishing buddy of Jack's.
Then... on the other hand, , this went on for years and years. Jack wasn't part of a group of guys gettin to gether once a year in Wyoming at some *boys weekend mountain retreat*... There was Ennis , only Ennis. :s) :f)?
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Nicely said, AF :)
It's just that what I remember clearly about the baby scene is the side profile of Lureen's mom with Jack in the doorway. Sort of like she's at most on the sidelines always, next to her shit kickin' husband. I also can't really stand how she reacts at the Thanksgiving dinner table. She takes Jack's scolding the old man almost like a direct hit to herself. This is probably because she'll feel the old man's reflex later, take off some of his tension.
Though, it certainly was refreshing seeing him unable to come back to Jack's finally dropped foot. What you mention about her giving the formula and belittling Jack as a man and whatever else is pretty petty of her; who the hell do these folks think they are, anyway?
At the other Thanksgiving table, I start feeling a little uneasy as well, by different means I reckon. All the girls want from there father is a little love. I always felt that they were scraping at the bottom of the bowl just to hear the one tired story, the one term of endearment, yet their smiles were hugely genuine upon receiving their wings. There would be the times of his absence when I'm sure they yearned along the lines of how Jack did. And like him, they were at a peak while they were with Ennis. Add to this, Alma and Cassie and it seems Ennis had just about everyone on a leash and afraid he'd eventually let go.
Add to the scenes I dislike the most, the last one that fades out like molasses through the window where every simple blade of grass moved freely. Just a little too bittersweet to sit right in my gut. :gnight:
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We saw her eyes in the scene when the baby was brought home. I feel she and the "stud duck" were cut from the same cloth. It's just the way she demeaned Jack by going on about the baby formula, a gift, as if Jack was'nt able to provide basic needs for the child. Did'nt like her. And then the old man, going on about how much the baby resembled him and not Jack.
Well, within 8mos. more likely before then, Jack had figured out that he did'nt belong and sought Ennis out again. I think Jack wanted to make sense of his life.
Certainly loreen, Lureen was a girl who was used to getting what she wanted, right down to a husband. She was *daddy's little girl" in a sense, but just feel she wanted and lived a *fairytale* life for a while until the thrill of it all wore off. She grew distant from Jack and put concentration on her work. Jack finds himself just existing, not really living a happy life. Soon they grow resentful and bitter. If she suspected anything about the true nature of Jack's relationship with Ennis, she did'nt let on. Personally, I think she bought the *fishing buddy* story. Even when she questioned Jack about Ennis, she showed no sign that she thought Ennis was nothing more than a good fishing buddy of Jack's.
Then... on the other hand, , this went on for years and years. Jack wasn't part of a group of guys gettin to gether once a year in Wyoming at some *boys weekend mountain retreat*... There was Ennis , only Ennis. :s) :f)?
Hi AF! ^f^
Yes, most of the things you said are OK. If you only let me add something - her eyes showed that she did not approved her father treat Jack so bad, but it was Texas 1970, what would we expect? Her father i dislike a lot, as well as Jack's! Her mother -I don't even think about, she is there, but she as well doesn't have to be! The result is the same- with or without her! She has no impact on anything.
I agree that Jack contacted Ennis to give his life the meaning, but also I believe that Ennis was always on his mind. It was only the matter of time, not only of the situation when he was going to look for the love of his life!
Yes, Lureen didn't know a thing about the nature of their relationship, but she felt that ganeraly something was wrong. At the very moment Ennis told her about him and Jack herding sheep on Brokeback (Jack's most favorite place), SHE FIGURED IT OUT, it was more than obvious.
I am not saying that she is the best wife in the world, but surely Jack had his freedom to leave when ever he wanted. And we have to remember- he stayed with her all his (short :\'( ) life!
$)
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I think we could all feel the sense of innocence and vulnerability of Alma in this scene and she was just trembling with sorrow... :\'(
And her all-out furstration, and wanting to get even after all those years of repressed anger...
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Hi AF! ^f^
Yes, most of the things you said are OK. If you only let me add something - her eyes showed that she did not approved her father treat Jack so bad, but it was Texas 1970, what would we expect? Her father i dislike a lot, as well as Jack's! Her mother -I don't even think about, she is there, but she as well doesn't have to be! The result is the same- with or without her! She has no impact on anything.
I agree that Jack contacted Ennis to give his life the meaning, but also I believe that Ennis was always on his mind. It was only the matter of time, not only of the situation when he was going to look for the love of his life!
Yes, Lureen didn't know a thing about the nature of their relationship, but she felt that ganeraly something was wrong. At the very moment Ennis told her about him and Jack herding sheep on Brokeback (Jack's most favorite place), SHE FIGURED IT OUT, it was more than obvious.
I am not saying that she is the best wife in the world, but surely Jack had his freedom to leave when ever he wanted. And we have to remember- he stayed with her all his (short :\'( ) life!
$)
When Jack spoke of her on at least 2 occaisions, he did not paint a picture of wedded bliss. He described her as a woman who had obviously found something to replace him as the center of her existence along with Bobby , their son. It's also obvious that Jack's heart just was'nt into the *perfect* little family life that he'd fallen into. Told Ennis that Newsome "hates my guts" and Lureen's adding machine was getting more attention than him. Needless to say , Jack was not impressed with the money or their lifestyle for he was willing to "take the money and run* so to speak. He was gonna leave her if only Ennis said yes.
And yes, she defended him at Thanksgiving when Jack found himself having to go toe to toe with Newsome over the t.v. being on and something much deeper within Jack, and that's to her credit, but she does have a bit of a rebellious streak in her. It's obvious she married Jack against her father's wishes. Once she got him, again , the excitment of the pursuit quickly wore off. I agree, Jack never stopped loving Ennis no matter who he got with and I really don't know why he even got married in the first place. Could'nt be for love, a sense of security? nah, maybe he married her because she was pregnant and felt he had to do the honorable thing. I read he wanted neither a wife nor kids. Just rambling...Thanx.
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When Jack spoke of her on at least 2 occaisions, he did not paint a picture of wedded bliss. He described her as a woman who had obviously found something to replace him as the center of her existence along with Bobby , their son. It's also obvious that Jack's heart just was'nt into the *perfect* little family life that he'd fallen into. Told Ennis that Newsome "hates my guts" and Lureen's adding machine was getting more attention than him. Needless to say , Jack was not impressed with the money or their lifestyle for he was willing to "take the money and run* so to speak. He was gonna leave her if only Ennis said yes.
And yes, she defended him at Thanksgiving when Jack found himself having to go toe to toe with Newsome over the t.v. being on and something much deeper within Jack, and that's to her credit, but she does have a bit of a rebellious streak in her. It's obvious she married Jack against her father's wishes. Once she got him, again , the excitment of the pursuit quickly wore off. I agree, Jack never stopped loving Ennis no matter who he got with and I really don't know why he even got married in the first place. Could'nt be for love, a sense of security? nah, maybe he married her because she was pregnant and felt he had to do the honorable thing. I read he wanted neither a wife nor kids. Just rambling...Thanx.
Yes, I do agree with you! :)
I just think that the coldness in their relatioship wasn't only her fault, but also Jacks. And we all know why. ::)
I only resent her change so much after married, not loving Jack as much as he desperately needed. On the other hand, she wasn't that demanding either, so... hm.. I still like her!
^f^
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BM, I have to disagree about Lureen. :*(
All her life she just knew (as women do) that something was wrong, but she never put a pressure on Jack. He was leaving and coming home as he wanted. She was a little distant form Jack, but I strongly believe that Jack was HER MAN!
Just watch again the phone call with Ennis. She sighted when started to talk about Jack's death. She was not as cold as she looked like. When Ennis told her that he and Jack were herding sheep one summer 1963 on Brokeback mountain - the place Jack noted as her favorite place where he wants to be buried, she almost started to cry. She lived with Jack so many years, but still he had one summer hearding sheep mountain as his favorite place. I have a feeling that, at that very moment SHE KNEW!! She understood everything, and continued to talk with Ennis with anger, as Jack obviously loved Ennis more than her! She was deeply hurt, still remained proud. When she said to Ennis to go to LF, she was very bitter. At last she even hang-up on Ennis so unexpectedly.
So, I believe that always balancing between Jack, his strange trips and behaviour, and her father who obviously hated Jack, her job, and all the things she had to finish on the daily basis, was not easy at all. Still, she remained very permissive to Jack! He was free to do anything. And that's why I like her.
One other thing I'd like to poin out is Ennis's confession about the Brokeback mountain "mistery"! When he first in 1967 got the postcard from Jack, he did not want to tell Alma about Jack and BBM when she asked. In those days this was buried inside of him, and he didn't want to, or couldn't speak about BBM, even just "acceptable" parts. He felt his experience there so intensive that he was affraid to say a word about it!
Now, when Lureen mentioned Brokeback, he said very easily that Brokeback mountain is the place where he and jack were herding sheep one summer. That showes that Jack's death killed much more in him than anyone else or anything else could. Nothing was important any more. Jack died! Ennis was not affraid to speak about BBM, as nothing had meaning anymore! Dear Ennis! :\'(
I agree with you about Lureen.
Also, very interesting what you say about Ennis not even dare mentioning the words Brokeback Mountain, or telling Alma about it being where he met Jack. I see it not so much as it being buried inside him, as it being so precious to him that he wanted nothing to taint it, such as any reaction Alma might have if he told her. Also, maybe being afraid he would reveal himself to her if he said those words that were so potent to him. But you're so right about after Jack was gone, when he spoke with Lureen, that he said it right out -- "Me and Jack herded sheep there one summer." He no longer had anything to lose.
I also thought it was very "brave" of him to speak of Jack as he did to Jack's parents. I know that sometimes gay people can tend to keep things to themselves/ourselves because of being afraid that just mentioning someone's name or some place or whatever, will give away their secret. Very sad. The same things a straight guy might say and no one would think anything of it, Ennis felt like if he said those same things it would be like a big neon sign announcing he was queer.
But I just LOVED how he told Jack's parents, "Me and Jack was good friends..." :\'(
kathy
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I agree with you about Lureen.
Also, very interesting what you say about Ennis not even dare mentioning the words Brokeback Mountain, or telling Alma about it being where he met Jack. I see it not so much as it being buried inside him, as it being so precious to him that he wanted nothing to taint it, such as any reaction Alma might have if he told her. Also, maybe being afraid he would reveal himself to her if he said those words that were so potent to him. But you're so right about after Jack was gone, when he spoke with Lureen, that he said it right out -- "Me and Jack herded sheep there one summer." He no longer had anything to lose.
I also thought it was very "brave" of him to speak of Jack as he did to Jack's parents. I know that sometimes gay people can tend to keep things to themselves/ourselves because of being afraid that just mentioning someone's name or some place or whatever, will give away their secret. Very sad. The same things a straight guy might say and no one would think anything of it, Ennis felt like if he said those same things it would be like a big neon sign announcing he was queer.
But I just LOVED how he told Jack's parents, "Me and Jack was good friends..." :\'(
kathy
Hi Kathy ^f^,
Of course, you're right about 2 possible reasons for Ennis didn't mention anything about Brokeback - maybe even both - fear and/or cherishing the precious memory of beautiful days on Brokeback. :\'( Aren't we all the same - if something's so precious for us, we don't share with others so easily!
As for LF scene, I found it extremely uncomfortable. Even Mrs Twist's good will didn't ease the heaviness of stone in my chest.
But for LF scene stays the same as for Lureen - Ennis surpassed his fears completely. Even the nature of his relationship with Jack was more that obvious Jack's parents, he stood there and bravely finished his obligation to Jack. He even agreed to go to Jack's room and dared to ask Jack's shirt. Ennis was deliberated from his fears, but the price was too high - our dear Jack! :\'(
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:\'( Jack's little cowboy toys... :\'( :\'( :\'( I cry so much when I watch that scene...
By the way, Did anyone else noticed the overly bright light in the Twist's family home? There was so much light... I think that means Jack is in heaven or something... At peace... <^( #)
I loved Jack's mother... <^( She was so strong...
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:\'( Jack's little cowboy toys... :\'( :\'( :\'( I cry so much when I watch that scene...
By the way, Did anyone else noticed the overly bright light in the Twist's family home? There was so much light... I think that means Jack is in heaven or something... At peace... <^( #)
I loved Jack's mother... <^( She was so strong...
BM, I've never thought about the light, but yes! That could be the sign of Jack's presence. <^(
The whole LF gives me the strong pain in my chest, but when Ennis found shirts..... :\'( :\'( :\'( well that's KILLER. I'm sure that all the pain we feel about this love story would be bisected if there wasn't so strong bound which connects the whole movie together - the hugging shirts! I never expected that was coming and when I saw the shirts I was shattered. Still am!
But let's go back to the topic - one of the most disgusting scenes in the movie was the one with the clown - not defined completely as we don't know why clown had so humiliating behavior towards Jack, but we clearly see Jack's loneliness and wish to find someone.. anyone. And he's being rudely rejected and ridiculed. For me who adore Jack with all his virtues and faults, that scene was so painful to watch! Especially as we saw Jack so depressed as he unsuccessfully fight in rodeo too, so all aspect of his life were miserable.
I go back to Lureen here - I think that according to circumstances she was the best thing at the moment that could happen to Jack!
:^^)
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I also thought it was very "brave" of him to speak of Jack as he did to Jack's parents. I know that sometimes gay people can tend to keep things to themselves/ourselves because of being afraid that just mentioning someone's name or some place or whatever, will give away their secret. Very sad. The same things a straight guy might say and no one would think anything of it, Ennis felt like if he said those same things it would be like a big neon sign announcing he was queer.
But I just LOVED how he told Jack's parents, "Me and Jack was good friends..." :\'(
kathy
For me, this too was another sign that Ennis was changing for the better. I suspect that this would have been unthinkable for him to do when Jack was still alive. So to have done it by himself, with all that emotional pain deep inside... :(
I think this is why I "dislike" this whole sequence of scenes. You see Ennis trying to make amends and reach out, but is pushed back...
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I didn't think it was even possible to "dislike" a scene in this jewel of a film. But after watching it again last night, and doing a bit of research, I have a scene that I dislike, in that it is disturbing to watch it. Of course, Jack's death is a killer. But Ennis' fight outside the bar on Thanksgiving is so hard for me to watch, especially now - I read someplace that Heath wanted the other actor to get into a real physical fight. So every grimace on his face is real - and it hurts so much to watch him in pain. :\'(
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I didn't think it was even possible to "dislike" a scene in this jewel of a film. But after watching it again last night, and doing a bit of research, I have a scene that I dislike, in that it is disturbing to watch it. Of course, Jack's death is a killer. But Ennis' fight outside the bar on Thanksgiving is so hard for me to watch, especially now - I read someplace that Heath wanted the other actor to get into a real physical fight. So every grimace on his face is real - and it hurts so much to watch him in pain. :\'(
The pain wasn't connected only with physical, obviously... in fact the least with physical. The pain was all over him - because of lost marriage, lost chances, distance from Jack and exposure from Alma in the cruelest possible way, that is at the time when he was her guest, vulnerable, alone, in anxious atmosphere of Monoroe's home. And when her reaction was completely meaningless!
I felt so sorry for him there! :\'(
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Great posts, I did'nt like it when Ennis tells Jack.." I heard what they got in Mexico for boys like you" &*& I cringed at this stinging indictment . What, after all this time?.....that was just Wrong. I think it was the last straw for Jack before he unleashed hell on Ennis.
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Great posts, I did'nt like it when Ennis tells Jack.." I heard what they got in Mexico for boys like you" &*& I cringed at this stinging indictment . What, after all this time?.....that was just Wrong. I think it was the last straw for Jack before he unleashed hell on Ennis.
I get the feeling that the question Ennis asked at that moment was something that he ALWAYS had on his mind, that he was just afraid to ask. He was stoic all his life and never ask for other man company (even not from a woman, but Cassie was difficult to avoid). Knowing Jack as the seducer and a man full of affection, surely Ennis suspected him.
When Jack persisted in his anger about so late meeting in November, and when he accused Ennis to waist their lives by refusing to live together, Ennis just brough it up. And the rest is a history...
Sad one, of course! :\'(
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I didn't think it was even possible to "dislike" a scene in this jewel of a film. But after watching it again last night, and doing a bit of research, I have a scene that I dislike, in that it is disturbing to watch it. Of course, Jack's death is a killer. But Ennis' fight outside the bar on Thanksgiving is so hard for me to watch, especially now - I read someplace that Heath wanted the other actor to get into a real physical fight. So every grimace on his face is real - and it hurts so much to watch him in pain. :\'(
What makes that fight scene so moving is that the scene that follows it is one of absolute peace -- and quiet dissatisfaction. The transition and the accompanying music in the following scene are so so beautiful. What a contrast to the brutal fight scene, where Heath actually asked that the blows be real...
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Great posts, I did'nt like it when Ennis tells Jack.." I heard what they got in Mexico for boys like you" &*& I cringed at this stinging indictment . What, after all this time?.....that was just Wrong. I think it was the last straw for Jack before he unleashed hell on Ennis.
I also don't like it because it showed so much contempt and condescension, It shows probably the worst that Ennis was capable of doing.
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I get the feeling that the question Ennis asked at that moment was something that he ALWAYS had on his mind, that he was just afraid to ask. He was stoic all his life and never ask for other man company (even not from a woman, but Cassie was difficult to avoid). Knowing Jack as the seducer and a man full of affection, surely Ennis suspected him.
When Jack persisted in his anger about so late meeting in November, and when he accused Ennis to waist their lives by refusing to live together, Ennis just brough it up. And the rest is a history...
Sad one, of course! :\'(
Agreed. I have said elsewhere that Ennis seemed to have read Jack's coded references to his comings and goings, and my feeling was that in the LC, Ennis was just itching to tell Jack what he knew. I really think that at that moment, there was a very real intention to hurt. WE can't blame Ennis entirely, but it is hard to watch this upleasant side of him, in any case.
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What makes that fight scene so moving is that the scene that follows it is one of absolute peace -- and quiet dissatisfaction. The transition and the accompanying music in the following scene are so so beautiful. What a contrast to the brutal fight scene, where Heath actually asked that the blows be real...
You are so right, TPE! I find myself actually breathing a sigh of relief when that lovely music and mountain scene come on. Of course, you know me - the mountains are Ennis & Jack's (and my) happy place. Then Jack and Ennis get into their argument about Ennis' moving to Texas and I get deflated again. :(
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What makes that fight scene so moving is that the scene that follows it is one of absolute peace -- and quiet dissatisfaction. The transition and the accompanying music in the following scene are so so beautiful. What a contrast to the brutal fight scene, where Heath actually asked that the blows be real...
I'm glad you brought it up - contrast - isn't the whole BBM about the contrasts?
- Lovely days on Brokaback in 1963, and the rest of the movie
- Their meetings on beautiful mountains and the claustrophobic life in Wyoming
- After being with Jack who's so strong, masculine, open minded, easy going.. Ennis ends up with Alma, who is (obviously on purpose) so tiny, small, gentle, simple, closed ... so inadequate for Ennis after he "tasted" Jack (well at least I feel that way..)
- Ennis and Jack - this is the basic contrast of the movie, starting from their appearance to their characters and behaviour
- wealth in Texas and the poverty in Wyoming
- Alma and Lureen, totally different from each other...
OK, this was OT, but I just linked to previous post.
PS: Can we get a "blushing smile" - I already needed it so many times.... ;D
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You are so right, TPE! I find myself actually breathing a sigh of relief when that lovely music and mountain scene come on. Of course, you know me - the mountains are Ennis & Jack's (and my) happy place. Then Jack and Ennis get into their argument about Ennis' moving to Texas and I get deflated again. :(
Quite frankly, I always find myself almost in tears when I see the transition.
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I'm glad you brought it up - contrast - isn't the whole BBM about the contrasts?
- Lovely days on Brokaback in 1963, and the rest of the movie
- Their meetings on beautiful mountains and the claustrophobic life in Wyoming
- After being with Jack who's so strong, masculine, open minded, easy going.. Ennis ends up with Alma, who is (obviously on purpose) so tiny, small, gentle, simple, closed ... so inadequate for Ennis after he "tasted" Jack (well at least I feel that way..)
- Ennis and Jack - this is the basic contrast of the movie, starting from their appearance to their characters and behaviour
- wealth in Texas and the poverty in Wyoming
- Alma and Lureen, totally different from each other...
OK, this was OT, but I just linked to previous post.
PS: Can we get a "blushing smile" - I already needed it so many times.... ;D
Yes, it is a film rich in "bookends" and contrasts. I think some of the contrasts are very hard to watch, as is the fight scene in question paired with the succeeding scene up in the mountains.
Speaking of contast between poor and wealthy, did you find any of the squalid Riverton scenes unpleasant to watch? personally, the scene where Ennis comes home to the ranch (the one with the babies crying) is a bit jarring to watch, because of the poverty and the seeming chaos...
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Yes, it is a film rich in "bookends" and contrasts. I think some of the contrasts are very hard to watch, as is the fight scene in question paired with the succeeding scene up in the mountains.
Speaking of contast between poor and wealthy, did you find any of the squalid Riverton scenes unpleasant to watch? personally, the scene where Ennis comes home to the ranch (the one with the babies crying) is a bit jarring to watch, because of the poverty and the seeming chaos...
Yeah, I hated the atmosphere when Ennis comes back to the ranch and the baby was crying and it was just hectic...
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Yeah, I hated the atmosphere when Ennis comes back to the ranch and the baby was crying and it was just hectic...
And squalid, to be sure. THere is something dignified about honest poverty. But the reality can also be quite unpleasant to watch.
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Quite frankly, I always find myself almost in tears when I see the transition.
Me too!
And so touching music doesn't help at all ... :\'(
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Speaking of Riverton... and I know that many of you will disagree, but the scene with Alma on the bad, before they started to kiss is very nauseous for me.
I didn't like the moment when Ennis is exhausted after a job and kids. Finally when finish everything, he needed some rest and comfort, he sat on the bad, and then Alma "attacked" him - simultaneously caressing and persueding him to move to town. With so low but assertive voice she continued to be tender in touch, but so persistent in her words. After this ordeal I felt jaded, and I can imagine how bad Ennis felt.
OK, he revenged pretty quickly #), but nevertheless she shouldn't have put so much pressure to him in that moment and in that way, IMO.
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Me too!
And so touching music doesn't help at all ... :\'(
The music is a large part of it. It mitigates the unpleasantness of the preceding fight scene. The transition provides a sort of release, after all the unpleasant emotions unleashed in the Thanksgiving and fight scenes...
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Speaking of Riverton... and I know that many of you will disagree, but the scene with Alma on the bad, before they started to kiss is very nauseous for me.
I didn't like the moment when Ennis is exhausted after a job and kids. Finally when finish everything, he needed some rest and comfort, he sat on the bad, and then Alma "attacked" him - simultaneously caressing and persueding him to move to town. With so low but assertive voice she continued to be tender in touch, but so persistent in her words. After this ordeal I felt jaded, and I can imagine how bad Ennis felt.
OK, he revenged pretty quickly #), but nevertheless she shouldn't have put so much pressure to him in that moment and in that way, IMO.
;D Sorry for this reaction, loreen, but "attack" is quite a strong word. :) You might be surprised to know that a number of members had also previously voiced some dislike for this very scene...
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;D Sorry for this reaction, loreen, but "attack" is quite a strong word. :) You might be surprised to know that a number of members had also previously voiced some dislike for this very scene...
:) That's why I used ".. " marks (don't know the word for it) to soften the word. But IMO it was an attack! I always resented that kind of behaviour and here is a shoolbook example of "attacking husband".
Well, I am new here and had no idea that others disliked this scene too. I expected a great deal of disapproval, but now am surprised. Obviously others saw the same negative message from the scene. ::)
Alma saw Jack and Ennis kissing and kept silence for almost 20 years and finally attacks Ennis is the most inappropriate situation, when their marriage was over and he was her guest!!! I don't like that. She had so many chances to clarify the situation, so many years to react. If she knew, and obviously she did, she could've just accept it or not. Not to hold that against Ennis for 20 years and making him more lonely and depressed than he already was. That was not fair also!
IMO she should have made things clear in the right time, place and manner. When one's words make no difference, then it's only a revenge...
Hm... someone would think that I kind of dislike Alma.. ??? #)
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On the second thought, maybe Alma's behaviour is also emphasized on purpose to make Ennis's life out of the meetings with Jack even more meaningless and empty. Alma happened to be the best tool for doing his life miserbale... uh, always is the wife's fault!
And I successfully forgot how miserable Alma's life was... :s)
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The probnlem with Alma is that she allowed things to go for so long -- as if what Ennis and Jack did had her tacit, but unwilling, approval. Granted, she probably felt that it was not in her interest to put all of this out in the open (at least between them), but her increasing bitterness made her a less sympathetic character as time went on.
It is her bitterness in the later scenes that I found most unpleasant. I feel a bit guilty, I must admit, because she is probably more deserving of sympathy.
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The probnlem with Alma is that she allowed things to go for so long -- as if what Ennis and Jack did had her tacit, but unwilling, approval. Granted, she probably felt that it was not in her interest to put all of this out in the open (at least between them), but her increasing bitterness made her a less sympathetic character as time went on.
It is her bitterness in the later scenes that I found most unpleasant. I feel a bit guilty, I must admit, because she is probably more deserving of sympathy.
I think it was really hard for her to try to forget about what she saw and just kept a grudge for all those years... But what's strange is that she didnt even mention it once! But I did feel sorry for her when she was asking Ennis if Jack could come inside for coffie or anything and he was just in a hurry to leave and when she asked for a packet of "smokes" Ennis just yelled out where they were and ran off... That's why I had some sympathy for Alma... She was just the innocent one who didnt really do anything until she brought up Jake in the Thanksgiving scene...
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I think it was really hard for her to try to forget about what she saw and just kept a grudge for all those years... But what's strange is that she didnt even mention it once! But I did feel sorry for her when she was asking Ennis for coffie or anything and he was just in a hurry to leave and when she asked for a packet of "smokes" Ennis just yelled out where they were and ran off... That's why I had some sympathy for Alma... She was just the innocent one who didnt really do anything until she brought up Jake in the Thanksgiving scene...
I suppose that you meant Jack, not Jake ! :)
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I suppose that you meant Jack, not Jake ! :)
Oh yea! :8 I'm so obessed with Jake that I dont even realise I'm confusing him with Jack! :8 :t)
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Oh yea! :8 I'm so obessed with Jake that I dont even realise I'm confusing him with Jack! :8 :t)
But this is good,no?,because it means that Jake has obtained such a good performance that all of us identify his character with him.He's not Jake Gyllenhaal,but Jack Twist,and the same ca be said about Heath/Ennis.
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Oh yea! :8 I'm so obessed with Jake that I dont even realise I'm confusing him with Jack! :8 :t)
Oh yes! Your obssesion with Jake G. is pretty much obvious! :*(
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Oh yes! Your obssesion with Jake G. is pretty much obvious! :*(
;D lol Yeah I guess it kinda is :8
But this is good,no?,because it means that Jake has obtained such a good performance that all of us identify his character with him.He's not Jake Gyllenhaal,but Jack Twist,and the same ca be said about Heath/Ennis.
Yeah, Their performaces were so amazing! I think they should of both won Oscars for their roles! :c)
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The probnlem with Alma is that she allowed things to go for so long -- as if what Ennis and Jack did had her tacit, but unwilling, approval. Granted, she probably felt that it was not in her interest to put all of this out in the open (at least between them), but her increasing bitterness made her a less sympathetic character as time went on.
It is her bitterness in the later scenes that I found most unpleasant. I feel a bit guilty, I must admit, because she is probably more deserving of sympathy.
She sure was the victim of this whole situation. Also, I agree with you tpe, that letting things go for so long was her biggest mistake. She could've confronted Ennis immediately and see where she stands. In this way she was collaborator in their marriage fiasco.
As I already said, I always support family, but in their case was more than clear how empty Ennis's life was without Jack. That was extremely unpleasant emotion and hardest decision for me - not to take wife's side! :-\\
^f^
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The probnlem with Alma is that she allowed things to go for so long -- as if what Ennis and Jack did had her tacit, but unwilling, approval. Granted, she probably felt that it was not in her interest to put all of this out in the open (at least between them), but her increasing bitterness made her a less sympathetic character as time went on.
It is her bitterness in the later scenes that I found most unpleasant. I feel a bit guilty, I must admit, because she is probably more deserving of sympathy.
I am way too close to the situation so I've debated on replying in regards to the discussion on Alma. But she was thrust into a situation that I can't find words bad enough to describe-living hell is the best I can come up with. Sometimes one makes sacrifices- even to the detriment of their own well being- in order to do what they perceive to be the "right" thing, esp. when young children are involved. And things aren't cut and dry when suspended in a surreal freefall. Being forced to accept a situation doesn't always mean condoning it. And I think the times being what they were, there weren't a lot of avenues for her to explore and not to mention the stigma of being cheated on.
What one thinks they can initially live with eventually takes it's toll and bitterness does seep in. It's not so easy to take a step in those shoes, never mind walk a mile in them. I can understand her bitterness and it's obvious, to me anyway, that she didn't do a character assassination of Ennis to the girls. They still seem to hold him in high regard and that is a good thing and kudos to Alma for that. O0 I'm all for J/E being together, my heart breaks for all that they endured, love them both incredibly much- wouldn't be here otherwise. I'd give them that sweet life if it was within my power to do so, but I'm often guilty of being swept up in them and not paying attention to the collateral damage. Just my $0.02. ^f^
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Good points LJN. I've always thought that Alma's behavior made perfect sense within the context of that scene. Watching him with the girls sitting at her Thanksgiving table, being the hero in their eyes, you could see her barely contained resentment. And then when he makes that offhand remark about being 'once burned', it must have been the last straw for her. Bad enough for her to endure what she did all those years. For him to try to imply that she was in any way at fault for the death of their marriage was a bad mis-step.
The genius of the way this scene is laid out is that we go very quickly from this part, and his resulting threatening behavior toward her, to the part where he storms out and goes to the bar and gets beaten up by the trucker that he assaults. Before we've even had a chance to really absorb his nearly violent behavior towards Alma, he's put into a perilous situation that brings our sympathies right back to him again. And the following scene is so melancholy, it's hard not to continue to be swept up in the boys' perspective throughout the film. I love them both dearly, and I think that they were all thrown into this disastrous set of circumstances because of the pressures and attitudes of the time, and Ennis' resultant fears, but I can't dismiss the impact it had on Alma and Lureen, as well as Jack and Ennis. I think Ang Lee did a great job of showing us that collateral damage you referred to, and in such a subtle yet definite way. It never diminished our sympathies and support for our boys, but at the same time, he didn't allow us the luxury of pretending the women's pain didn't exist as well.
As to the earlier scene when Alma asks Ennis to move to the city, I know that some people viewed this as being manipulative on her part, but I didn't see it that way. She was a young wife and mother living out in the middle of nowhere with two kids, one in poor health, and a husband who worked long hours far away. She was understandably lonely and trying to find a place where they could have access to services and contact with other people that would be natural for her to want. I think she genuinely believed that it would be better for all of them. And I can't help remembering that smile on her face when she saw his truck pulling up to the property. At this time, even with the pressures she faced raising her family, she was obviously still in love with him and happy to have him home.
The pain they all felt in the coming years was no one's fault, least of all Alma's. Makes me want to hug all of them. :ghug:
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What one thinks they can initially live with eventually takes it's toll and bitterness does seep in. It's not so easy to take a step in those shoes, never mind walk a mile in them. I can understand her bitterness and it's obvious, to me anyway, that she didn't do a character assassination of Ennis to the girls. They still seem to hold him in high regard and that is a good thing and kudos to Alma for that. O0 I'm all for J/E being together, my heart breaks for all that they endured, love them both incredibly much- wouldn't be here otherwise. I'd give them that sweet life if it was within my power to do so, but I'm often guilty of being swept up in them and not paying attention to the collateral damage. Just my $0.02. ^f^
LJN, ^f^
I agree with that. But is it possible that this stoic side of Alma's character not to expose Ennis was also expected. We know that today many women use their children for revenging to their ex husbands... but was it the same back then? Has she got that kind of courage? Maybe that kind of behaviour would sound more like a madness: "Alma Jr. and Jenny, you know that I divorced your father because he's a queer!"
&*& I can't possibly imagine that kind of conversation. Alma was definitely not so brave, and she would've never said that. If not for Ennis sake, but for the girls' sake sure.
I accept the fact that the circumstances dictated Alma's (for nowdays not so understandable) behaviour, but it's a whole package - not only her attitude towards Ennis, and his relationship with Jack, but also her attitude towards girls and their relationship with father - that we accept as "normal" for her.
Gee, I am not sure again was my English adequate... hope you understand. :-\\
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Good points LJN. I've always thought that Alma's behavior made perfect sense within the context of that scene. Watching him with the girls sitting at her Thanksgiving table, being the hero in their eyes, you could see her barely contained resentment. And then when he makes that offhand remark about being 'once burned', it must have been the last straw for her. Bad enough for her to endure what she did all those years. For him to try to imply that she was in any way at fault for the death of their marriage was a bad mis-step.
When I first saw that scene I was a bit angry at Ennis when he said "once burned", but later I understood that he was expressing his own regrets about their marriage. Alma of course didn't take it that way, and she bursts in the worst possible way.
I always thought that she loved him till the end. Monroe was just a man who offered a security and financial support that Ennis never gave her. She was very much bitter about the situation and that was obvious. She didn't seem so happy with her life with Monroe too.
As to the earlier scene when Alma asks Ennis to move to the city, I know that some people viewed this as being manipulative on her part, but I didn't see it that way. She was a young wife and mother living out in the middle of nowhere with two kids, one in poor health, and a husband who worked long hours far away. She was understandably lonely and trying to find a place where they could have access to services and contact with other people that would be natural for her to want. I think she genuinely believed that it would be better for all of them. And I can't help remembering that smile on her face when she saw his truck pulling up to the property. At this time, even with the pressures she faced raising her family, she was obviously still in love with him and happy to have him home.
The pain they all felt in the coming years was no one's fault, least of all Alma's. Makes me want to hug all of them. :ghug:
Alma's wish to move to town was reasonable. It was the way of achieving that aim - that was manipulative, IMO. There are other ways and situations to talk over some problems. But, now I'm thinking... maybe that's that whole package I mentioned previously about Alma.
When we put her character together - also no mistake made about her.
She sure deserve our sympathy, but my emotions were/are preoccupied with Ennis and Jack's love, that I've lost my fundamental belief about the importance of happy family, and took a side of two gay cowboys. ^*()
This movie really made a huge disturbance in me. Still does... (^)
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I am way too close to the situation so I've debated on replying in regards to the discussion on Alma. But she was thrust into a situation that I can't find words bad enough to describe-living hell is the best I can come up with. Sometimes one makes sacrifices- even to the detriment of their own well being- in order to do what they perceive to be the "right" thing, esp. when young children are involved. And things aren't cut and dry when suspended in a surreal freefall. Being forced to accept a situation doesn't always mean condoning it. And I think the times being what they were, there weren't a lot of avenues for her to explore and not to mention the stigma of being cheated on.
What one thinks they can initially live with eventually takes it's toll and bitterness does seep in. It's not so easy to take a step in those shoes, never mind walk a mile in them. I can understand her bitterness and it's obvious, to me anyway, that she didn't do a character assassination of Ennis to the girls. They still seem to hold him in high regard and that is a good thing and kudos to Alma for that. O0 I'm all for J/E being together, my heart breaks for all that they endured, love them both incredibly much- wouldn't be here otherwise. I'd give them that sweet life if it was within my power to do so, but I'm often guilty of being swept up in them and not paying attention to the collateral damage. Just my $0.02. ^f^
Wholey cherry tomatoes that was said so well, Michelle. You really open the skylight on this. And everyone else, thanks too for the good points. :)
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Agreed. I have said elsewhere that Ennis seemed to have read Jack's coded references to his comings and goings, and my feeling was that in the LC, Ennis was just itching to tell Jack what he knew. I really think that at that moment, there was a very real intention to hurt. WE can't blame Ennis entirely, but it is hard to watch this upleasant side of him, in any case.
So true, that Ennis probably intended to be insulting to Jack about going to Mexico. And also he distances himself from "boys like you" by saying this. He ain't a queer who would go to Mexico! Convincing himself of that, as he does all the time, while at the same time denigrating Jack for being that kind of queer.
kathy
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...
PS: Can we get a "blushing smile" - I already needed it so many times.... ;D
You're so cute! You don't need to blush, not here! Not in embarrassment, anyway. But a good healthy blush as in "whew -- is it hot in here??" now that's different. Lots of that going on here, along with thuds and drools.
kathy
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Yes, it is a film rich in "bookends" and contrasts. I think some of the contrasts are very hard to watch, as is the fight scene in question paired with the succeeding scene up in the mountains.
Speaking of contast between poor and wealthy, did you find any of the squalid Riverton scenes unpleasant to watch? personally, the scene where Ennis comes home to the ranch (the one with the babies crying) is a bit jarring to watch, because of the poverty and the seeming chaos...
Yes, I do find that scene "unpleasant." Babies crying always adds to a sense of things out of control. Not being a mother, babies crying is a basically jarring sound; and in this scene, the sound of Alma's washing on the washboard at the sink added to this like pounding disharmony.
However, I adored when Ennis went in and took care of the girls. (Who, to my mind, sure seem like they were crying all the time when they were younger! It bugged me, too, at the 4th of July scene.)
As to "squalor," I have an odd fondness for that (as long as it's not filthy-unsanitary). I didn't mind the mess of their laundrymat apartment -- but also, perhaps that's the set designer in me. I'd like to do set design on messy crazy interiors. ^*()
kathy
PS: But as a few of you know, I do not live in squalor -- quite the contrary. But I grew up in kind of a pigsty -- too many kids, not caring if things were messy or even dirty.
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Speaking of Riverton... and I know that many of you will disagree, but the scene with Alma on the bad, before they started to kiss is very nauseous for me.
I didn't like the moment when Ennis is exhausted after a job and kids. Finally when finish everything, he needed some rest and comfort, he sat on the bad, and then Alma "attacked" him - simultaneously caressing and persueding him to move to town. With so low but assertive voice she continued to be tender in touch, but so persistent in her words. After this ordeal I felt jaded, and I can imagine how bad Ennis felt.
OK, he revenged pretty quickly #), but nevertheless she shouldn't have put so much pressure to him in that moment and in that way, IMO.
Very interesting observation, Loreen. Not knowing how their sex life was, or Ennis's kind of desires with her, I didn't know if he would have wanted sex at that time, if even exhausted, that's how he liked to end the evening.
I do, though, get exactly what you said, about Alma bugging Ennis about moving, while apparently trying to turn him on. Using sex to get what she wanted.
kathy
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I guess I just look at that scene differently. I don't see it as Alma using sex to get what she wanted. Just a natural progression of the events of the evening and that particular conversation. I felt like she was trying to make the point that if they moved to town, none of them would have to be as lonely as they were. And of course intimacy is another way to stave off loneliness or demonstrate your connection to someone.
And as to Ennis getting revenge on her sexually, I don't think that was the case either. I think this was just something he did sometimes, and while he showed an obvious disregard for her preference or feelings in the matter, I don't think there was any other intent in it.
Just to wrap up my thoughts on Alma, I guess I sometimes feel like we have a need to villify her a little bit in order to sympathize more fully with Ennis. But I think it's unfair to do so and only masks the real problem in these situations. The truth is that no one can be at fault and people still get hurt. In this case, Alma was a true victim of circumstances. Her only crime was in falling in love and marrying a man that she thought loved her back. Ennis married her thinking, I presume, that he could make himself live a 'normal' life but was never able to get Jack out of his system or his heart. I don't think he ever meant to hurt her, but he did nevertheless. That he was forced to even attempt to live this kind of lie is the injustice at the heart of their story and they were all collateral damage. I just don't feel a need to lay blame on Alma in order to love Ennis. I feel for them both.
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You're so cute! You don't need to blush, not here! Not in embarrassment, anyway. But a good healthy blush as in "whew -- is it hot in here??" now that's different. Lots of that going on here, along with thuds and drools.
kathy
Kathy, ^f^
I'd really like to have that "blushing smiley". It's so convenient when I just need to say something even aware that it's not that clever or polite or off topic. But I just have to say it! ^^) Than I just put a "blushing smiley" and cover it up! ::)
:^^)
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I guess I just look at that scene differently. I don't see it as Alma using sex to get what she wanted. Just a natural progression of the events of the evening and that particular conversation. I felt like she was trying to make the point that if they moved to town, none of them would have to be as lonely as they were. And of course intimacy is another way to stave off loneliness or demonstrate your connection to someone.
And as to Ennis getting revenge on her sexually, I don't think that was the case either. I think this was just something he did sometimes, and while he showed an obvious disregard for her preference or feelings in the matter, I don't think there was any other intent in it.
Just to wrap up my thoughts on Alma, I guess I sometimes feel like we have a need to villify her a little bit in order to sympathize more fully with Ennis. But I think it's unfair to do so and only masks the real problem in these situations. The truth is that no one can be at fault and people still get hurt. In this case, Alma was a true victim of circumstances. Her only crime was in falling in love and marrying a man that she thought loved her back. Ennis married her thinking, I presume, that he could make himself live a 'normal' life but was never able to get Jack out of his system or his heart. I don't think he ever meant to hurt her, but he did nevertheless. That he was forced to even attempt to live this kind of lie is the injustice at the heart of their story and they were all collateral damage. I just don't feel a need to lay blame on Alma in order to love Ennis. I feel for them both.
Flwrchild ^f^,
I agree with you.
I actually didn't think that Ennis's way of making love with her (like with Jack) was a real revenge, I said it in a funny manner connecting her previous behaviour and the "punishment" that was not meant to be a punishment. But my words can easily be misunderstood as I didn't explain it well.
Alma is a victim by all means, I agree with that. Even so, her behaviour that night makes me nauseous. I know that it's the way how many women deal with their husbands, and I don't like it. For me it'll always be manipulating way to get something.
The question is only - was she aware the state he was in (tired, exhausted), and how aggressive her voice sounded (even so low). I don't know. She has a goal and chooses no means to get there. Not one of my favorite scenes anyway.
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I think it was really hard for her to try to forget about what she saw and just kept a grudge for all those years... But what's strange is that she didnt even mention it once! But I did feel sorry for her when she was asking Ennis if Jack could come inside for coffie or anything and he was just in a hurry to leave and when she asked for a packet of "smokes" Ennis just yelled out where they were and ran off... That's why I had some sympathy for Alma... She was just the innocent one who didnt really do anything until she brought up Jake in the Thanksgiving scene...
Yes, to see Alma spurned in that scene is sad to watch. But the scene where he goes to work and leaves Ennis and the kids to fend for themselves -- I lost a great deal of sympathy for her then.
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She sure was the victim of this whole situation. Also, I agree with you tpe, that letting things go for so long was her biggest mistake. She could've confronted Ennis immediately and see where she stands. In this way she was collaborator in their marriage fiasco.
As I already said, I always support family, but in their case was more than clear how empty Ennis's life was without Jack. That was extremely unpleasant emotion and hardest decision for me - not to take wife's side! :-\\
^f^
In a sense, the fault was not Alma's. So even though we understand Ennis's perspective, we can't help but blame him for the unpleasant situation. What Alma did afterwards didn't help, but it is understandable that she was bitter. It was amazing nonetheless to see how long she waited before she allowed her bitterness some release.
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I am way too close to the situation so I've debated on replying in regards to the discussion on Alma. But she was thrust into a situation that I can't find words bad enough to describe-living hell is the best I can come up with. Sometimes one makes sacrifices- even to the detriment of their own well being- in order to do what they perceive to be the "right" thing, esp. when young children are involved. And things aren't cut and dry when suspended in a surreal freefall. Being forced to accept a situation doesn't always mean condoning it. And I think the times being what they were, there weren't a lot of avenues for her to explore and not to mention the stigma of being cheated on.
What one thinks they can initially live with eventually takes it's toll and bitterness does seep in. It's not so easy to take a step in those shoes, never mind walk a mile in them. I can understand her bitterness and it's obvious, to me anyway, that she didn't do a character assassination of Ennis to the girls. They still seem to hold him in high regard and that is a good thing and kudos to Alma for that. O0 I'm all for J/E being together, my heart breaks for all that they endured, love them both incredibly much- wouldn't be here otherwise. I'd give them that sweet life if it was within my power to do so, but I'm often guilty of being swept up in them and not paying attention to the collateral damage. Just my $0.02. ^f^
Alma thought she really was doing the right thing -- not saying anything for the sake of the marriage and the children. Had she started an affair with Monroe, even while she was married to Ennis, I wonder? If so, then it would have been a way to get even. But I somehow feel that it was consistent with her character not to go that route. It would also explain her increasing bitterness and feelings of isolation...
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So true, that Ennis probably intended to be insulting to Jack about going to Mexico. And also he distances himself from "boys like you" by saying this. He ain't a queer who would go to Mexico! Convincing himself of that, as he does all the time, while at the same time denigrating Jack for being that kind of queer.
kathy
It was unpleasant to see Ennis act this wway -- deliberately trying to hurt Jack and making it seem that he was better and more "normal" than Jack. People who are angry do stupid things, and Ennis was simply blinded by anger...
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Yes, I do find that scene "unpleasant." Babies crying always adds to a sense of things out of control. Not being a mother, babies crying is a basically jarring sound; and in this scene, the sound of Alma's washing on the washboard at the sink added to this like pounding disharmony.
However, I adored when Ennis went in and took care of the girls. (Who, to my mind, sure seem like they were crying all the time when they were younger! It bugged me, too, at the 4th of July scene.)
As to "squalor," I have an odd fondness for that (as long as it's not filthy-unsanitary). I didn't mind the mess of their laundrymat apartment -- but also, perhaps that's the set designer in me. I'd like to do set design on messy crazy interiors. ^*()
kathy
PS: But as a few of you know, I do not live in squalor -- quite the contrary. But I grew up in kind of a pigsty -- too many kids, not caring if things were messy or even dirty.
I thought that the set design was well done. The interior of the ranch and the Riverton apartment certainly looked the period, no? Yes, nothing is wrong with honest poverty, but it was depressing to see nonetheless...
Kathy, I didn't know that -- about your growing up in such an environment. I guess when we are kids, such things don't really matter that much.
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Yes, to see Alma spurned in that scene is sad to watch. But the scene where she goes to work and leaves Ennis and the kids to fend for themselves -- I lost a great deal of sympathy for her then.
&*& Ok, I guess I’m just going at this from the point of view of a young mother. But how can this scene be meant to imply any inappropriate behavior on Alma’s part? At this time in the story, she has gone to work to help support her family because her husband refuses to get a better job and keeps quitting the ones he has when he needs to in order to spend time with Jack. As the exchange reveals, she had already told him previously that she had to work that evening, and has left dinner on the stove for Ennis and the girls. How can that possibly be considered ‘leaving him to fend for himself’? ??? I took this scene to be meant to show us their growing discontent as a couple and his inability to contain his unhappiness with his life in general. Sorry if my reaction seems strong Thomas ;D , but as a young mother who knows just what goes into juggling these kinds of situations, I can’t see her as anything but sympathetic in this scene. The only thing I found unsympathetic here was Ennis going all Neanderthal on his working wife. ^^) :*(
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I thought that the set design was well done. The interior of the ranch and the Riverton apartment certainly looked the period, no? Yes, nothing is wrong with honest poverty, but it was depressing to see nonetheless...
Kathy, I didn't know that -- about your growing up in such an environment. I guess when we are kids, such things don't really matter that much.
OT: No, it didn't matter when I was a kid (though it did start to bother me as a teen). In fact, our house was the one everyone wanted to hang out in, because it was free. We got to draw on the walls, for instance!
kathy
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Totally OT: that was my house too Kathy, except for the drawing on the wall part. Everyone in the neighborhood wanted to hang out there. It wasn't til I got a little older that I started to feel self conscious about the condition, which to be fair was deteriorating over time. ::) Ok, done with that. Sorry for the OT. :-X
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&*& Ok, I guess I’m just going at this from the point of view of a young mother. But how can this scene be meant to imply any inappropriate behavior on Alma’s part? At this time in the story, she has gone to work to help support her family because her husband refuses to get a better job and keeps quitting the ones he has when he needs to in order to spend time with Jack. As the exchange reveals, she had already told him previously that she had to work that evening, and has left dinner on the stove for Ennis and the girls. How can that possibly be considered ‘leaving him to fend for himself’? ??? I took this scene to be meant to show us their growing discontent as a couple and his inability to contain his unhappiness with his life in general. Sorry if my reaction seems strong Thomas ;D , but as a young mother who knows just what goes into juggling these kinds of situations, I can’t see her as anything but sympathetic in this scene. The only thing I found unsympathetic here was Ennis going all Neanderthal on his working wife. ^^) :*(
Because it had to be quoted. Wonderful post! :cr)
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&*& Ok, I guess I’m just going at this from the point of view of a young mother. But how can this scene be meant to imply any inappropriate behavior on Alma’s part? At this time in the story, she has gone to work to help support her family because her husband refuses to get a better job and keeps quitting the ones he has when he needs to in order to spend time with Jack. As the exchange reveals, she had already told him previously that she had to work that evening, and has left dinner on the stove for Ennis and the girls. How can that possibly be considered ‘leaving him to fend for himself’? ??? I took this scene to be meant to show us their growing discontent as a couple and his inability to contain his unhappiness with his life in general. Sorry if my reaction seems strong Thomas ;D , but as a young mother who knows just what goes into juggling these kinds of situations, I can’t see her as anything but sympathetic in this scene. The only thing I found unsympathetic here was Ennis going all Neanderthal on his working wife. ^^) :*(
I felt that she should have checked herself -- for the sake of the children. I felt it must have been traumatic to expose the children to such a fight. True, it was unbecoming to both of them. But this did not make Alma look good as a mother.
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OT: No, it didn't matter when I was a kid (though it did start to bother me as a teen). In fact, our house was the one everyone wanted to hang out in, because it was free. We got to draw on the walls, for instance!
kathy
OT: I drew on the walls of my house once and got belted!
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I felt that she should have checked herself -- for the sake of the children. I felt it must have been traumatic to expose the children to such a fight. True, it was unbecoming to both of them. But this did not make Alma look good as a mother.
Ennis should have checked himself as well. Didn't make him look good as a father, imo. Fighting is not good for the children and I grew up witnessing a lot worse than that so yeah I can agree on that. She was doing the best she could under the circumstances- the emotional trauma of living with being betrayed (and it wasn't one time- it was ongoing- no real opportunity to heal) and then having to pick up his slack in order to put food on the table for her children and keep a roof over their heads? She is a human being not a robot who can just check her emotions away. Again just my opinion.
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OT: I drew on the walls of my house once and got belted!
*o)
.. ha ha ha! You were such a good boy Tpe! Only once?
I got belted so many times but I was persistant not only in drawing on the walls, but in peeling wall papers and carving the furniture... ::) Oh, I go my share, but I enjoyed my little art works. To be honest -parents gave up first! &**)
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I felt that she should have checked herself -- for the sake of the children. I felt it must have been traumatic to expose the children to such a fight. True, it was unbecoming to both of them. But this did not make Alma look good as a mother.
Well, it was an unpleasant scene by all means. But both of them - Ennis and Alma showed how little they cared for their relationship. And one thing that made this scene little more acceptable was Ennis's: What? Do you girls need pushing?" (or something like that..) That surely tamed the situation... and was even funny at last.
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*o)
.. ha ha ha! You were such a good boy Tpe! Only once?
I got belted so many times but I was persistant not only in drawing on the walls, but in peeling wall papers and carving the furniture... ::) Oh, I go my share, but I enjoyed my little art works. To be honest -parents gave up first! &**)
:8
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I felt that she should have checked herself -- for the sake of the children. I felt it must have been traumatic to expose the children to such a fight. True, it was unbecoming to both of them. But this did not make Alma look good as a mother.
Wow, I guess this is one of those times we’ll just have to agree to disagree. ;D
It is always unfortunate when children have to witness their parents fighting. I just don’t see how Alma ‘checking herself’ would necessarily have been the right thing to do in this instance, for them or for herself.
She was on her way to work. Ennis followed her out of the house yelling and swearing at her. She could have gone back inside and tried to reason with him out of the children's earshot, I suppose, but clearly he wasn’t in a mood to be reasoned with. As evidenced by his response to her telling him that she’d cooked them dinner and it was on the stove for them. And she had to get to work.
To me, her only options were to do exactly what she did (didn’t engage in the fight with him, just told him what her responsibility was and left) or to capitulate in order to placate him and avoid fighting in front of the kids. But what kind of message would that have sent to them? That it’s ok for a man to be abusive and overbearing to his wife? That she should submit to his will even when he’s being moody and unreasonable? I don’t think that would have been a good model for them. To me, it’s better to recognize that we all get upset sometimes and vent our frustrations, that we don’t always get along, even as adults, but that this too passes and helps us learn to rein in our tempers better the next time we’re faced with conflict. And that sometimes you do need to stand up for yourself.
She stated her case simply and firmly, didn’t relent when he lost his temper, and showed that she had faith in him to take care of the girls appropriately, even after he threatened not to feed them if she didn’t stay to serve them all. Which shows the children, as well as Ennis, that she hasn’t allowed her frustration in that moment to alter her impressions of his measure as a father or his commitment to his daughters and ability to care for them. When looked at in this light, I’d say she made the best of an unfortunate situation.
So yes, it’s always unbecoming when adults behave like children in front of children but I just can’t agree that this exchange in any way makes Alma look bad as a mother.
Sorry for being so long-winded. ::) I just couldn’t figure out how else to explain my impressions of this scene. Once again, I am struck by how differently we can interpret little moments in the movie and yet still share so many of the same overall impressions of the story and its characters. I love that it offers us such depth. :c)
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OT: I drew on the walls of my house once and got belted!
You poor thing...
I think it was awesome we got to draw on the walls. In our rooms and in the basement, I'm talking about, not downstairs in the front room, etc. (Not that the front room was Home & Garden either -- au contraire.) Anyway, I don't think it's unreasonable, to let kids draw on the walls. Just paint them every once in a while. We had such a fun world in our house.
kathy
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Well, it was an unpleasant scene by all means. But both of them - Ennis and Alma showed how little they cared for their relationship. And one thing that made this scene little more acceptable was Ennis's: What? Do you girls need pushing?" (or something like that..) That surely tamed the situation... and was even funny at last.
Yes, Loreen -- I just LOVED that moment, "You girls need a push?" It looked like the girls weren't outwardly freaked out by their parents fighting, so it probably went on from time to time. Neither Ennis nor Alma could be expected to always quell their anger for the girls' sake. It's terrible for kids...but a fact of life in so many cases. They seemed to not have turned out overly neurotic or messed up as they grew older, though we really don't see their most deep inner selves later.
kathy
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Wow, I guess this is one of those times we’ll just have to agree to disagree. ;D
It is always unfortunate when children have to witness their parents fighting. I just don’t see how Alma ‘checking herself’ would necessarily have been the right thing to do in this instance, for them or for herself.
She was on her way to work. Ennis followed her out of the house yelling and swearing at her. She could have gone back inside and tried to reason with him out of the children's earshot, I suppose, but clearly he wasn’t in a mood to be reasoned with. As evidenced by his response to her telling him that she’d cooked them dinner and it was on the stove for them. And she had to get to work.
To me, her only options were to do exactly what she did (didn’t engage in the fight with him, just told him what her responsibility was and left) or to capitulate in order to placate him and avoid fighting in front of the kids. But what kind of message would that have sent to them? That it’s ok for a man to be abusive and overbearing to his wife? That she should submit to his will even when he’s being moody and unreasonable? I don’t think that would have been a good model for them. To me, it’s better to recognize that we all get upset sometimes and vent our frustrations, that we don’t always get along, even as adults, but that this too passes and helps us learn to rein in our tempers better the next time we’re faced with conflict. And that sometimes you do need to stand up for yourself.
She stated her case simply and firmly, didn’t relent when he lost his temper, and showed that she had faith in him to take care of the girls appropriately, even after he threatened not to feed them if she didn’t stay to serve them all. Which shows the children, as well as Ennis, that she hasn’t allowed her frustration in that moment to alter her impressions of his measure as a father or his commitment to his daughters and ability to care for them. When looked at in this light, I’d say she made the best of an unfortunate situation.
So yes, it’s always unbecoming when adults behave like children in front of children but I just can’t agree that this exchange in any way makes Alma look bad as a mother.
Sorry for being so long-winded. ::) I just couldn’t figure out how else to explain my impressions of this scene. Once again, I am struck by how differently we can interpret little moments in the movie and yet still share so many of the same overall impressions of the story and its characters. I love that it offers us such depth. :c)
Perfectly well said, Barb. Obviously, Ennis was the one being unreasonable and just being a jerk, and Alma managed to maintain her dignity under the circumstances and without overtly degrading Ennis. And as I just said, the girls weren't freaked out and cowering or anything...
kathy
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Ennis should have checked himself as well. Didn't make him look good as a father, imo. Fighting is not good for the children and I grew up witnessing a lot worse than that so yeah I can agree on that. She was doing the best she could under the circumstances- the emotional trauma of living with being betrayed (and it wasn't one time- it was ongoing- no real opportunity to heal) and then having to pick up his slack in order to put food on the table for her children and keep a roof over their heads? She is a human being not a robot who can just check her emotions away. Again just my opinion.
This is true. Both of them should have checked themselves. But it does not mitigate Alma's fault, especially when serving dinner to her children should have been more important to her than her fight with Ennis. Again, the same can be said about Ennis, but it no way mitigates the fault of either one.
Lastly, we should remember the context of the society portrayed. It was a society that puts the husband above the wife, and in this context, the fight was more a loss of face to Ennis than it was to Alma -- especially with the children.
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Wow, I guess this is one of those times we’ll just have to agree to disagree. ;D
It is always unfortunate when children have to witness their parents fighting. I just don’t see how Alma ‘checking herself’ would necessarily have been the right thing to do in this instance, for them or for herself.
She was on her way to work. Ennis followed her out of the house yelling and swearing at her. She could have gone back inside and tried to reason with him out of the children's earshot, I suppose, but clearly he wasn’t in a mood to be reasoned with. As evidenced by his response to her telling him that she’d cooked them dinner and it was on the stove for them. And she had to get to work.
To me, her only options were to do exactly what she did (didn’t engage in the fight with him, just told him what her responsibility was and left) or to capitulate in order to placate him and avoid fighting in front of the kids. But what kind of message would that have sent to them? That it’s ok for a man to be abusive and overbearing to his wife? That she should submit to his will even when he’s being moody and unreasonable? I don’t think that would have been a good model for them. To me, it’s better to recognize that we all get upset sometimes and vent our frustrations, that we don’t always get along, even as adults, but that this too passes and helps us learn to rein in our tempers better the next time we’re faced with conflict. And that sometimes you do need to stand up for yourself.
She stated her case simply and firmly, didn’t relent when he lost his temper, and showed that she had faith in him to take care of the girls appropriately, even after he threatened not to feed them if she didn’t stay to serve them all. Which shows the children, as well as Ennis, that she hasn’t allowed her frustration in that moment to alter her impressions of his measure as a father or his commitment to his daughters and ability to care for them. When looked at in this light, I’d say she made the best of an unfortunate situation.
So yes, it’s always unbecoming when adults behave like children in front of children but I just can’t agree that this exchange in any way makes Alma look bad as a mother.
Sorry for being so long-winded. ::) I just couldn’t figure out how else to explain my impressions of this scene. Once again, I am struck by how differently we can interpret little moments in the movie and yet still share so many of the same overall impressions of the story and its characters. I love that it offers us such depth. :c)
Well, we can certainly agree to disagree here. ;)
I cannot help feel that it was a deliberate attempt on Alma's part to flaunt her disregard for Ennis's "authority" in front of her children (again, given the context of that society). It makes sense in the flow of events, because I think the intention of the film-makers was to show this as a way of her "getting back" at Ennis for the betrayal. As in all cases, a wrong does not make a right.
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Well, it was an unpleasant scene by all means. But both of them - Ennis and Alma showed how little they cared for their relationship. And one thing that made this scene little more acceptable was Ennis's: What? Do you girls need pushing?" (or something like that..) That surely tamed the situation... and was even funny at last.
Yes, I was about to say this, but saw that you had already cited it. The fact that we see Ennis asking them that question showed that he at least tried to mitigate things (although his kicking the bucket after that didn't exactly help the situation. ;D) Perhaps Alma would have done the same, but we never see her do this. Hence, I do admit that this made me feel "better" about Ennis.
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Perfectly well said, Barb. Obviously, Ennis was the one being unreasonable and just being a jerk, and Alma managed to maintain her dignity under the circumstances and without overtly degrading Ennis. And as I just said, the girls weren't freaked out and cowering or anything...
kathy
You know, the way they protrayed the girls in this scene made me feel that this was not the first time they had seen such fights. We see this again after Ennis asks them a question. And we see this again when we see their nonchalance after Ennis kicks the bucket.
Hence, I interpret the girls' nonchalance to a desensitization, rather than anything else. It wasn't that they were undisturbed by it -- rather, they were used to it and had developed mechanisms to shut them out.
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I believe that the way he was treating his daughters all his life made them love him so much and look upon him as a hero. Despite the very unfortunate situation in their family girls turn up to be very normal and lovely persons. His love was a big part of that success. I especially liked their behaviour during Thanksgiving, they were such a cuties. And they adored him! <^(
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You know, the way they protrayed the girls in this scene made me feel that this was not the first time they had seen such fights. We see this again after Ennis asks them a question. And we see this again when we see their nonchalance after Ennis kicks the bucket.
Hence, I interpret the girls' nonchalance to a desensitization, rather than anything else. It wasn't that they were undisturbed by it -- rather, they were used to it and had developed mechanisms to shut them out.
I also think that this was not the first time the girls had seen this type of fight between their parents. Ennis had a temper. With the shadow of the affair with Jack hanging over the marriage like a dark cloud, Ennis's growing resentment towards Alma because she was'nt Jack, and her growing resentment towards Ennis for feeling he can still "fool her" about the fishing trips. There is always an underlying , unspoken reason for this kind of altercation between married couples. She could'nt speak of it, neither could he. Perhaps she found an escape from it all at work....besides, at work Monroe offered a alternative to the tension.
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You know, the way they protrayed the girls in this scene made me feel that this was not the first time they had seen such fights. We see this again after Ennis asks them a question. And we see this again when we see their nonchalance after Ennis kicks the bucket.
Hence, I interpret the girls' nonchalance to a desensitization, rather than anything else. It wasn't that they were undisturbed by it -- rather, they were used to it and had developed mechanisms to shut them out.
That is what I meant to say, Thomas, that the girls were used to it. Not that it didn't bother them inside, as of course it did. But they were desensitized, as you said, and their being disturbed wasn't shown overtly.
kathy
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This is true. Both of them should have checked themselves. But it does not mitigate Alma's fault, especially when serving dinner to her children should have been more important to her than her fight with Ennis. Again, the same can be said about Ennis, but it no way mitigates the fault of either one.
Lastly, we should remember the context of the society portrayed. It was a society that puts the husband above the wife, and in this context, the fight was more a loss of face to Ennis than it was to Alma -- especially with the children.
But serving dinner to the girls wasn't more important than her going to her necessary job! When Ennis could do it just as well. Even in the context of the times.
kathy
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I also think that this was not the first time the girls had seen this type of fight between their parents. Ennis had a temper. With the shadow of the affair with Jack hanging over the marriage like a dark cloud, Ennis's growing resentment towards Alma because she was'nt Jack, and her growing resentment towards Ennis for feeling he can still "fool her" about the fishing trips. There is always an underlying , unspoken reason for this kind of altercation between married couples. She could'nt speak of it, neither could he. Perhaps she found an escape from it all at work....besides, at work Monroe offered a alternative to the tension.
I would say that after the Reunion, both Ennis and Alma were not about ready for playing it softly. I think both of them were the type of people that exhibited explosive anger -- i.e., they allowed their anger to build up until it can no longer be contained. So I assume that the girls were exposed to these very dramatic confrontations.
And yes, I feel that work had become a sort of refuge for Alma, even as she understood that she now had to earn more money than Ennis in order to keep up with the bills. Some people have speculated that at this time, she had perhaps began an affair with Monroe. Possible, but uncertain, to be sure...
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But serving dinner to the girls wasn't more important than her going to her necessary job! When Ennis could do it just as well. Even in the context of the times.
kathy
But was the job really more important? I question this. In fact, this is exactly the same fault we blame Ennis -- making his job an excuse to push back Alma, the girls, AND Jack. For example, was Ennis crazy to have dropped his job to attend Alma Jr.'s wedding? Granted, a wedding is more "important" than a dinner, but both symbolize the same level of prioritization and Ennis's shift after Jack's death.
Hence, if we don't spare Ennis for this same fault, I don't see why we have to spare Alma.
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I believe that the way he was treating his daughters all his life made them love him so much and look upon him as a hero. Despite the very unfortunate situation in their family girls turn up to be very normal and lovely persons. His love was a big part of that success. I especially liked their behaviour during Thanksgiving, they were such a cuties. And they adored him! <^(
But we should also note that even Ennis held back even with his girls -- it was part of his own fears, and when we see him do this, it can be quite distasteful.
I for one am uncomfortable when Alma Jr. asks Ennis if she could live with him and Ennis responds with an evasive no. KIt really shows that for all his love for his daughters, he spent most of his life trying to keep a part of him apart from them. This is sad.
The hope is that Jack's death made him realize this fault, and we see him in the end trying to make amends.
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And yes, I feel that work had become a sort of refuge for Alma, even as she understood that she now had to earn more money than Ennis in order to keep up with the bills. Some people have speculated that at this time, she had perhaps began an affair with Monroe. Possible, but uncertain, to be sure...
I have to admit that I find very difficult for anyone to have "an affair" with Monroe... :*(
He strikes me as a man whom woman would chose only to "keep up with the bills" as you said. This is an ugly thing to say, but after ENNIS to have an affair with MONROE??!! Yes, sure! But only to ensure financial and other safety for family! And I wouldn't call it "an afair", rather "escape"... ;)
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But we should also note that even Ennis held back even with his girls -- it was part of his own fears, and when we see him do this, it can be quite distasteful.
I for one am uncomfortable when Alma Jr. asks Ennis if she could live with him and Ennis responds with an evasive no. KIt really shows that for all his love for his daughters, he spent most of his life trying to keep a part of him apart from them. This is sad.
The hope is that Jack's death made him realize this fault, and we see him in the end trying to make amends.
Ennis's whole life was about control and distance from others in order to keep that control. When he refused Junior, maybe it was evasive, but he look at her with so apologizing look and love, that it made it acceptable for me. And I didn't think that it would be so good choice for her.
Of course the main reason for the rejection was his developed capability to avoid people. Only in that way he could preserve the piece of his inner peace. At least he believed so!
I think that he deeply loved his daughters though! :)
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Ennis's whole life was about control and distance from others in order to keep that control. When he refused Junior, maybe it was evasive, but he look at her with so apologizing look and love, that it made it acceptable for me. And I didn't think that it would be so good choice for her.
Of course the main reason for the rejection was his developed capability to avoid people. Only in that way he could preserve the piece of his inner peace. At least he believed so!
I think that he deeply loved his daughters though! :)
What made that scne painful to watch was that in spite of Ennis's very apologetic look, we can tell that Alma Jr. was VERY disappointed -- slamming the trcuk door and not looking back.
Also painful to watch was Alam Jr's face when Ennis first tells her in the Trailer scene that he had to be up in the Tenons for the roundup at the time the wedding was scheduled. What saved the scene was the dramatic change in Jr.'s face after Ennis changed his mind! :)
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Well, we can certainly agree to disagree here. ;)
I cannot help feel that it was a deliberate attempt on Alma's part to flaunt her disregard for Ennis's "authority" in front of her children (again, given the context of that society). It makes sense in the flow of events, because I think the intention of the film-makers was to show this as a way of her "getting back" at Ennis for the betrayal. As in all cases, a wrong does not make a right.
I see this scene very differently myself. First, I don't think it was a deliberate attempt at all by Alma to do anything other than go to work, preferably without being berated for it by the husband who makes it necessary for her to get a job in the first place and then harasses her for it. Second, I never thought Ang Lee was trying to show this as an attempt to "get back at" Ennis for anything. I just saw it as a way to show that Alma was losing her patience with both Ennis' behavior and her role in this marriage, and was finally starting to show some of her frustrations. That’s all. I can’t think of any reason why Alma would make a deliberate effort to flaunt her disregard for Ennis’ authority in front of the children. I’m not even sure I think she had a disregard for his authority. I guess I also sort of think that ascribing a lot of ulterior motives to their behaviors is giving both of them credit for being much more analytical and insightful than I think either of them were. Alma wasn't planning anything here and neither was Ennis. She was trying to go to work. He was feeling frustrated or out of sorts (for whatever reason) and lashed out at her. That’s all I saw.
Yes, I was about to say this, but saw that you had already cited it. The fact that we see Ennis asking them that question showed that he at least tried to mitigate things (although his kicking the bucket after that didn't exactly help the situation. ;D) Perhaps Alma would have done the same, but we never see her do this. Hence, I do admit that this made me feel "better" about Ennis.
I think that for both of us, our initial impressions of this scene have shaped the way we see all of the different elements in it. Because again, it looked a little different to me. I saw Ennis turn away from a heated exchange with his wife (during which time neither of them were taking note of the children’s presence) and register that his girls were sitting on the swings looking at him. Now shifting back into the moment with his kids, he gruffly asks them if they need a push. Once they say no, he turns and kicks at the bucket in frustration and then walks away. He is obviously still in his frustration zone. If he were really trying to mitigate anything, he would have taken a deep breath, given them a smile, and paid some attention to them. It wasn’t Alma’s responsibility to do so in this case because she had to go. We have no way of knowing what her response might have been if she’d been the parent that stayed after the argument. Please understand that I’m not trying to criticize Ennis here. I just think that we’re looking at two people, who weren’t very sophisticated, doing the best they could with what they were given in life. Unfortunately for Alma, she was as much a victim of Ennis’ oppression as he was. Society wasn’t kind to either of them. But as far as I could see from the small glimpses Ang Lee gave us into her character, including this one, she rose to meet her circumstances with as much dignity as anyone could expect of her.
But serving dinner to the girls wasn't more important than her going to her necessary job! When Ennis could do it just as well. Even in the context of the times.
kathy
But was the job really more important? I question this. In fact, this is exactly the same fault we blame Ennis -- making his job an excuse to push back Alma, the girls, AND Jack. For example, was Ennis crazy to have dropped his job to attend Alma Jr.'s wedding? Granted, a wedding is more "important" than a dinner, but both symbolize the same level of prioritization and Ennis's shift after Jack's death.
Hence, if we don't spare Ennis for this same fault, I don't see why we have to spare Alma.
Well here we’re just arguing different points, not actually disagreeing. Because serving the girls dinner has nothing to do with Alma’s priorities or her job in the context of this scene. She isn’t choosing work over feeding her family. In fact, she’d already cooked their dinner. All Ennis had to do was put it on a plate and set it on the table for them. I don’t mean to sound argumentative but to me we’re adding an element to the mix that just isn’t there. If we’re saying that Alma should choose to take care of her children over going to work, even if she needs this job to provide for her family, then we should be looking at a time when she made a choice between the two. That’s not the case here. She fed her family and she went to work, which means she covered both responsibilities. All Ennis had to do was be present with his kids for the evening. I’m sure my bias is showing here. ;D Even now, in 2008, it makes me nuts that so many people still say that when women are taking care of their kids, they’re being a mother but when men take care of their kids, they’re ’babysitting.’ Um…no. When you take care of someone else’s kids, you’re babysitting. When you take care of your own kids, you’re parenting. Imo, it wasn’t unreasonable to expect this of Ennis, even in that era.
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I see this scene very differently myself. First, I don't think it was a deliberate attempt at all by Alma to do anything other than go to work, preferably without being berated for it by the husband who makes it necessary for her to get a job in the first place and then harasses her for it. Second, I never thought Ang Lee was trying to show this as an attempt to "get back at" Ennis for anything. I just saw it as a way to show that Alma was losing her patience with both Ennis' behavior and her role in this marriage, and was finally starting to show some of her frustrations. That’s all. I can’t think of any reason why Alma would make a deliberate effort to flaunt her disregard for Ennis’ authority in front of the children. I’m not even sure I think she had a disregard for his authority. I guess I also sort of think that ascribing a lot of ulterior motives to their behaviors is giving both of them credit for being much more analytical and insightful than I think either of them were. Alma wasn't planning anything here and neither was Ennis. She was trying to go to work. He was feeling frustrated or out of sorts (for whatever reason) and lashed out at her. That’s all I saw.
I think that for both of us, our initial impressions of this scene have shaped the way we see all of the different elements in it. Because again, it looked a little different to me. I saw Ennis turn away from a heated exchange with his wife (during which time neither of them were taking note of the children’s presence) and register that his girls were sitting on the swings looking at him. Now shifting back into the moment with his kids, he gruffly asks them if they need a push. Once they say no, he turns and kicks at the bucket in frustration and then walks away. He is obviously still in his frustration zone. If he were really trying to mitigate anything, he would have taken a deep breath, given them a smile, and paid some attention to them. It wasn’t Alma’s responsibility to do so in this case because she had to go. We have no way of knowing what her response might have been if she’d been the parent that stayed after the argument. Please understand that I’m not trying to criticize Ennis here. I just think that we’re looking at two people, who weren’t very sophisticated, doing the best they could with what they were given in life. Unfortunately for Alma, she was as much a victim of Ennis’ oppression as he was. Society wasn’t kind to either of them. But as far as I could see from the small glimpses Ang Lee gave us into her character, including this one, she rose to meet her circumstances with as much dignity as anyone could expect of her.
Quite interesting! It amazes me how much our perceptions can differ... Surely a testament to how the director draws out very personal feelings from each of us.
Well here we’re just arguing different points, not actually disagreeing. Because serving the girls dinner has nothing to do with Alma’s priorities or her job in the context of this scene. She isn’t choosing work over feeding her family. In fact, she’d already cooked their dinner. All Ennis had to do was put it on a plate and set it on the table for them. I don’t mean to sound argumentative but to me we’re adding an element to the mix that just isn’t there. If we’re saying that Alma should choose to take care of her children over going to work, even if she needs this job to provide for her family, then we should be looking at a time when she made a choice between the two. That’s not the case here. She fed her family and she went to work, which means she covered both responsibilities. All Ennis had to do was be present with his kids for the evening. I’m sure my bias is showing here. ;D Even now, in 2008, it makes me nuts that so many people still say that when women are taking care of their kids, they’re being a mother but when men take care of their kids, they’re ’babysitting.’ Um…no. When you take care of someone else’s kids, you’re babysitting. When you take care of your own kids, you’re parenting. Imo, it wasn’t unreasonable to expect this of Ennis, even in that era.
Well, we can disgree on the details, then. :) I think that implicit in all this is that Alma had always served them dinner prior to this, and that I am sure this was not the first time she had to work at an odd time and that in the past, she had always managed to do so without conflicts. Again, this goes back to my belief that all this was deliberate. For me, she was deliberately chosing work over feeding her family, in order to make a point with Ennis -- and for the director to show Alma's growing independence and contempt for her husband.
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Well, we can disgree on the details, then. :) I think that implicit in all this is that Alma had always served them dinner prior to this, and that I am sure this was not the first time she had to work at an odd time and that in the past, she had always managed to do so without conflicts. Again, this goes back to my belief that all this was deliberate. For me, she was deliberately chosing work over feeding her family, in order to make a point with Ennis -- and for the director to show Alma's growing independence and contempt for her husband.
Among the other things in this scene which were already disscused, I believe that this point can be very true!
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Among the other things in this scene which were already disscused, I believe that this point can be very true!
Well, it is an opinion. :) Interesting to see that it is not shared by others...
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I think it had arrived a point in Ennis/Alma relationship in which everything was taken as a "tour de force" between them.In this case,it was who would serve dinner or not,but it would be whatever of the many details of householding after or before.The main point of all this is that their marriage was breaking little by little,and every little detail already became an struggle.With a better intention,Alma would have served the dinner,as I guess she had done before so many times,or,if times flied too fast for her,Ennis would have served so that she could be less in a hurry...But good intentions were at that point very far from this couple.
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I think it had arrived a point in Ennis/Alma relationship in which everything was taken as a "tour de force" between them.In this case,it was who would serve dinner or not,but it would be whatever of the many details of householding after or before.The main point of all this is that their marriage was breaking little by little,and every little detail already became an struggle.With a better intention,Alma would have served the dinner,as I guess she had done before so many times,or,if times flied too fast for her,Ennis would have served so that she could be less in a hurry...But good intentions were at that point very far from this couple.
This is true. No matter how we feel for any of the characters (i.e., sympathy or a lack thereof) to see the deterioration of their marriage is quite depressing. And even after the marriage (i.e., thr Thanksgiving scene) we get no respite.
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There's another scene with Alma I dislike - the moment when she caught them during the reunion kiss. Between two engaging scenes of Ennis's and Jack's reunion where we exhaled, there's short part where shocked Alma enters the kitchen.
I admire Michelle W. for this scene. She was perfect by all means! First walking quickly as she wants to run away from the sight of her husband kissing a man, and then in the kitchen she just lost all her strength, looked like she was going to faint, moving unnaturally slow. Very good acting indeed! But I don't like the scene, just because Alma was a second Aguirre ^*), a person who spoiled the beauty of Ennis's and Jack's love.(Even she was more that entitled to do it ???).
I have to admit that I don't understand why Alma put her beg on the shoulder... as if she wants to go out? Knife&fork? :s)
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I feel the bag on her sholder was just an total unconcious nervous gesture on her part. Alma was still in shock, like she had just been punched in the stomach. She knew she was'nt invited to the party after what she'd witnessed. She also needed a smoke, though I never pictured her as a smoker. In any case, Ennis had that covered too. Asking him to bring her back a pack of cigarettes was just an effort to bring Ennis back home sooner,... no such luck...
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I feel the bag on her sholder was just an total unconcious nervous gesture on her part. Alma was still in shock, like she had just been punched in the stomach. She knew she was'nt invited to the party after what she'd witnessed. She also needed a smoke, though I never pictured her as a smoker. In any case, Ennis had that covered too. Asking him to bring her back a pack of cigarettes was just an effort to bring Ennis back home sooner,... no such luck...
;D
AF, you gave me a naughty idea here. %&)
(^)
But, yes, it was probably unconscious.. can't think of nothing else.
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I feel the bag on her sholder was just an total unconcious nervous gesture on her part. Alma was still in shock, like she had just been punched in the stomach. She knew she was'nt invited to the party after what she'd witnessed. She also needed a smoke, though I never pictured her as a smoker. In any case, Ennis had that covered too. Asking him to bring her back a pack of cigarettes was just an effort to bring Ennis back home sooner,... no such luck...
Absolutely and well said. ^f^
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There's another scene with Alma I dislike - the moment when she caught them during the reunion kiss. Between two engaging scenes of Ennis's and Jack's reunion where we exhaled, there's short part where shocked Alma enters the kitchen.
I admire Michelle W. for this scene. She was perfect by all means! First walking quickly as she wants to run away from the sight of her husband kissing a man, and then in the kitchen she just lost all her strength, looked like she was going to faint, moving unnaturally slow. Very good acting indeed! But I don't like the scene, just because Alma was a second Aguirre ^*), a person who spoiled the beauty of Ennis's and Jack's love.(Even she was more that entitled to do it ???).
I have to admit that I don't understand why Alma put her beg on the shoulder... as if she wants to go out? Knife&fork? :s)
Her acting in this very scene was so full of nuance. Again, it is one of the great scenes where not a single word was really said. The greatness of this scene can be measured by our very reaction to it -- of how it disturbs and elates us at the same time.
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I have to admit that I don't understand why Alma put her beg on the shoulder... as if she wants to go out? Knife&fork? :s)
I feel the bag on her sholder was just an total unconcious nervous gesture on her part. Alma was still in shock, like she had just been punched in the stomach. She knew she was'nt invited to the party after what she'd witnessed. She also needed a smoke, though I never pictured her as a smoker. In any case, Ennis had that covered too. Asking him to bring her back a pack of cigarettes was just an effort to bring Ennis back home sooner,... no such luck...
I agree with aintfoolin. Also, it may have been a subsconscious will to put herself between them. I thought it added greatly to the realiam of the scene -- the confusion and the facade of nonchalance.
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As I watched that scene where Alma sees the men kissing, I wondered how many women in the audience were suddenly putting two and two together and feeling a stomach-emptying kick in their own stomachs. I felt such great anguish for Alma and for all the other women who have been "used" by gay men to hide their true nature - and the shock is that I am associated with a church that still recommends that gay men and lesbian ladies marry someone of the opposite sex. Does such a scheme originate with God or the devil!!! and yet so many heterosexual men cannot see the hypocrisy in this - and how it turns women into unsuspecting guinea pigs. My mother was one step ahead of such religious leaders - she once suggested that I marry a lesbian - so at least everything would look OK - we'd never have to be intimate.
Poor Alma - I thought she played the scene just perfectly - putting a bag over her shoulder as though to go out seems logical to me - her first reaction might be to run, RUN, escape from what she had just seen - to come back later and find out it was all an illusion and her life could go on.
The poverty really bothered me too - I suppose people live like that - in a few rooms over a laundry with the cheapest of furniture and everything a bit of a mess - I thought the interiors were well done.
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Welcome to the forum, cnr1949.
You must understand that gay men are as much the victims as the women. For much of history, they have been made to confrom not only in marriage but in so many other things. If your life is at stake, a loveless marriage is a small price to pay. Don't forget that Ennis was in fear for his life, and rightfully so.
Moreover, we must also consider the possibility that Ennis at the time of the marriage really thought that he was in love with Alma. The deception was not just on Alma, you know.
It does not excuse the falsehood, but one cannot condemn it so easily -- given that they did not have that much of a choice.
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Moreover, we must also consider the possibility that Ennis at the time of the marriage really thought that he was in love with Alma. The deception was not just on Alma, you know.
It does not excuse the falsehood, but one cannot condemn it so easily -- given that they did not have that much of a choice.
I agree on this one tpe! :)
Ennis wasn't aware of the suffering he was going to taste in the marriage, especially during so many years after the reunion kiss and the reunion sex in the motel, which clearly showed him that his life with Alma is a pale shadow of the passion he had for Jack. At the time he had married Alma, he couldn't possibly imagine what was going to happen. :(
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I agree on this one tpe! :)
Ennis wasn't aware of the suffering he was going to taste in the marriage, especially during so many years after the reunion kiss and the reunion sex in the motel, which clearly showed him that his life with Alma is a pale shadow of the passion he had for Jack. At the time he had married Alma, he couldn't possibly imagine what was going to happen. :(
Even to the last, I think part of the reason why Ennis didn't want a divorce was his wanting a sense of "normalcy" -- something that family life gave him, inspite of all the falsehoods and pretenses. I think his tears during the divorce proceedings were truly genuine (as well as Alma's). I think to the very end, a part of each of them wanted things to work out. This is what makes the divorce scene a bit unpleasant to watch.
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Even to the last, I think part of the reason why Ennis didn't want a divorce was his wanting a sense of "normalcy" -- something that family life gave him, inspite of all the falsehoods and pretenses. I think his tears during the divorce proceedings were truly genuine (as well as Alma's). I think to the very end, a part of each of them wanted things to work out. This is what makes the divorce scene a bit unpleasant to watch.
This is for sure - I mean about their tears and wish to work things out!
The only thing I would chalenge here is about the reason for staying in the marriage. Part of it IS because it's normal, but part of it is (as always) a resentance to break something that lasted so long time, with 2 children in between, something that stared as a really good intention with love between two people. The reason to end that should've been big one. For Alma was the neverending lack of money and for her unbearable "fishing" trips! And for Ennis was his escaping from others into himself, into the imaginary world that only he and Jack existed!
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This is for sure - I mean about their tears and wish to work things out!
The only thing I would chalenge here is about the reason for staying in the marriage. Part of it IS because it's normal, but part of it is (as always) a resentance to break something that lasted so long time, with 2 children in between, something that stared as a really good intention with love between two people. The reason to end that should've been big one. For Alma was the neverending lack of money and for her unbearable "fishing" trips! And for Ennis was his escaping from others into himself, into the imaginary world that only he and Jack existed!
You certainly make a good point here. There is a saying: habit is stronger than hate. And there is such a thing as inertia -- a dread of change even if change might bring about better opportunities.
For Alma, I think the end vame when she lost all her respect for her husband. But you are right -- there are practical and emotional considerations that finally pushed her over the edge.
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You certainly make a good point here. There is a saying: habit is stronger than hate. And there is such a thing as inertia -- a dread of change even if change might bring about better opportunities.
For Alma, I think the end vame when she lost all her respect for her husband. But you are right -- there are practical and emotional considerations that finally pushed her over the edge.
I have a feeling that Alma loved Ennis even after divorce. If not, she would've never react so emotionally when brought up Jack Nasty during Thanksgiving supper! She was hurt, she lost her respect for him, but IMO she still loved him. There was no hate between them, only lack of a tiniest reason to stay together. That makes the divorcing scene extremely anxious! :(
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I think that cnr1949 was acknowledging that everyone suffers in these marriages (correct me if I'm wrong) and that it is not just a matter of gay men taking advantage of unsuspecting women but that they're being pressured (even today) to marry in this way. And as tpe and loreen have pointed out, there are so many things that went into Ennis' decision to marry Alma and to stay with her. I agree that he was probably trying desperately to achieve a state of normalcy, not just for appearances but for himself. In the beginning, I think he really thought that he could turn his back on that magical summer, leave it behind somehow and make a life with Alma. But even before Jack returned, it was clear that Ennis was unable to do this, and once they were reunited any hope for normalcy with Alma was dashed. It was undoubtedly easier for both of them, for a time, to stay in an unhappy marriage rather than upset the status quo. There was, after all, no good solution for Ennis, as he believed so strongly that they could never be together, and there were children to be considered. For Alma, she probably held on for a long time to the hope that as upsetting as what she had seen was to her, it wouldn't impact her marriage overall and was something they/she could overcome. I liked the description in the SS of how their marriage came to an end:
"A slow corrosion worked between Ennis and Alma, no real trouble, just widening water.....Her resentment opened out a little every year: the embrace she had glimpsed, Ennis' fishing trips once or twice a year and never a vacation with her and the girls....put her in a long, slow dive..."
You can almost feel her weariness as she finally realizes that this is as good as her life with Ennis will ever get and it just isn't enough. There were good intentions on both sides when the marriage started, which makes it that much sadder that it all ended so bitterly.
I can't say that it's a scene I disliked because it was so well acted by both of them, but I have to admit that the courthouse scene for their divorce struck me hard, as you could see the pain that both of them were going through.
Amazing film, amazing layers.
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Thanks loreen and flwrchild!
loreen, sometimes, I wonder about Alma after the divorce. I sometimes think her bitterness overpowered any amount of love she had left for Ennis. If there was a love left in the end, I would perhaps call it the dregs of love, which is bitter beyond imagining.
flwrchild, I think the word" "corrosion" goes a long way in describing why we dislike the scenes that show the deterioration of their marriage. It wears us down as much as it wore them down...
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Beautifully put, tpe. I think you're right about that.
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Thanks loreen and flwrchild!
loreen, sometimes, I wonder about Alma after the divorce. I sometimes think her bitterness overpowered any amount of love she had left for Ennis. If there was a love left in the end, I would perhaps call it the dregs of love, which is bitter beyond imagining.
You may likely be right on this one.... bitterness was probably too strong to extract any love from her. ???
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However,I think she was bitter because she loved still Ennis.Sometimes-more often than we believe...-we hate who has left us because we love them still.
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However,I think she was bitter because she loved still Ennis.Sometimes-more often than we believe...-we hate who has left us because we love them still.
When I think of this over and over again it is really difficult to distinguish whether their conversation in the kitchen had any feelings left. The reason for her emotional words can be love, but also can be her wish to hurt him as he hurt her with Jack Nasty! And I even don't think that she hated him. I think that she was too hurt over the years, and it made her as bitter as Jack in the end.
Hm... so sweet Ennis made so many people bitter... :*(
Anway, Ennis didn't leave her, I believe that they had an agreement that there's no reason to stay together. I personally see no real hatered, but most probably her love was shattered by an enormous bitterness. Did any of her love for Ennis left, it's difficult to know!
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The scene I disliked the most -hands down -was when a joyful Jack sings his way up to see Ennis after the divorce happy as a clam only to be shot down by paranoid you know who...spends a brief moment, says hello to the girls and turns right around for the long journey back...crying as he goes...surely there could have been a more plausible scenario...watched it one time and never again....senseless in my opinion
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The scene I disliked the most -hands down -was when a joyful Jack sings his way up to see Ennis after the divorce happy as a clam only to be shot down by paranoid you know who...spends a brief moment, says hello to the girls and turns right around for the long journey back...crying as he goes...surely there could have been a more plausible scenario...watched it one time and never again....senseless in my opinion
nagsheadsea412 ^f^,
Oh, this scene was mentioned here, so many times I assume , as really was one of the most unpleasant scenes in BBM! Starting from so long and joyful Jack's trip, trough Ennis' refusal to accomodate him (at least), to his tears and mexican male prostitute! Really anxious and hard to watch! :\'(
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I agree. :-\\
Many of the songs on the soundtrack made me cry, but for a long time King of the Road was a song I couldn't even listen to. I had to fast forward past it because it just killed me how happy Jack was on the trip up, so sure all his dreams were coming true, with no idea that his heart was about to be broken in a million pieces. I just couldn't do it. I knew I was healing when I could listen to the song again without bursting into tears.
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I agree. :-\\
Many of the songs on the soundtrack made me cry, but for a long time King of the Road was a song I couldn't even listen to. I had to fast forward past it because it just killed me how happy Jack was on the trip up, so sure all his dreams were coming true, with no idea that his heart was about to be broken in a million pieces. I just couldn't do it. I knew I was healing when I could listen to the song again without bursting into tears.
"Healing" is the right word! After BBM, we all needed healing! :\'(
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You may likely be right on this one.... bitterness was probably too strong to extract any love from her. ???
However,I think she was bitter because she loved still Ennis.Sometimes-more often than we believe...-we hate who has left us because we love them still.
I know from what I have observed in real life that the greater you love somebody, the greater the capacity to hate and not to forgive when things fall apart. That's because it hurts so much.
But I see MPJ's point nonetheless: that you couldn't hate if you no longer cared. This too, I have seen in real life. But bitterness I think outlasts hate, IMO, and it may very well be that Alma was simply bitter to the very end.
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The scene I disliked the most -hands down -was when a joyful Jack sings his way up to see Ennis after the divorce happy as a clam only to be shot down by paranoid you know who...spends a brief moment, says hello to the girls and turns right around for the long journey back...crying as he goes...surely there could have been a more plausible scenario...watched it one time and never again....senseless in my opinion
Yes, I think I have said before that I find this a "heartless" (even cruel) scene. It is especially hard to watch if you put yourself in jack's shoes.
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*o) I think that Alma did love Ennis, except that she only loved the Ennis "she thought she knew". Did she love Monroe? I don't see anything that tells us yes or no, but I think she did.
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*o) I think that Alma did love Ennis, except that she only loved the Ennis "she thought she knew". Did she love Monroe? I don't see anything that tells us yes or no, but I think she did.
Atalley, I was already talking about Monroe somewhere else- for me he was only a secure future for her and girls! IMO
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*o) I think that Alma did love Ennis, except that she only loved the Ennis "she thought she knew". Did she love Monroe? I don't see anything that tells us yes or no, but I think she did.
Yes,Anita,Alma was still in love more with the idea of that Ennis she had met than with the real Ennis.But she was still in love with him,or at least,he loved him more than a simple ex husband.Only this situation can explain by itself the rage and bitterness she felt and more still if we notice that she felt against her "rival",Jack Nasty.Look how she never insults Ennis directly,but Jack,as if this one was the real guilty of her broken marriage.This is meaningful,no?.
Atalley, I was already talking about Monroe somewhere else- for me he was only a secure future for her and girls! IMO
I agree with you too,Loreen.I have never seen Monroe as a real love for Alma,but a substitute for Ennis.She is a woman educated in the idea of being a good wife and mother who depends on the safety of a man at home,both emotionally...and finantially.And,moreover,she had to show Ennis she was able to live a life of her own without him.
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*o) I think that Alma did love Ennis, except that she only loved the Ennis "she thought she knew". Did she love Monroe? I don't see anything that tells us yes or no, but I think she did.
But did this mean that she didn't in fact love Ennis, but an image of Ennis that she created in her own mind?
As to Monroe, personally, I think Alma loved someone who would be a husband to her and a father to her children.
Her devaluation of Ennis as a husband and a father is what makes the "downhill" scenes in their marriage unpleasant to watch.
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But did this mean that she didn't in fact love Ennis, but an image of Ennis that she created in her own mind?
As to Monroe, personally, I think Alma loved someone who would be a husband to her and a father to her children.
Her devaluation of Ennis as a husband and a father is what makes the "downhill" scenes in their marriage unpleasant to watch.
We all fall in love with an image of someone, which shows up to be less or more false... but false! The less it is false, the longer love will last.
As for Monroe - you could be right here considering that Alma have had her passion for Ennis when younger. Now she needed to be secure in the marriage, and Monroe was the one who could give that security to her. Up to a point, we could call it love. But definitely not the same as she has for Ennis. This time was more selfish love than a flame.
I can agree that the corrosion of their marriage was result of Ennis' attitude towards Alma and their marriage, but I always see Ennis as a good father. Not the best one, surely not perfect, but good! It is just his and Alma's relationship that gave us the most unpleasant scenes of the movie.
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But did this mean that she didn't in fact love Ennis, but an image of Ennis that she created in her own mind?
I think she loved Ennis once upon a time. The Ennis that she saw a future with, the one she fell in love with, made a family and a life with. The one she could trust and the one who hadn’t yet broken her heart. Not an image she conjured up, but a very real experience.
As to Monroe, personally, I think Alma loved someone who would be a husband to her and a father to her children.
I think she loved Monroe. There’s not a lot given to suggest her true feelings either way. But I don’t see why she couldn’t love him. True, some people move on to the next “best thing” because they don’t want to be alone and that could very well be the case. But I’d hate to shackle her to a life of only having one person to truly love in her life, especially one who did her wrong (intentionally or not)- kind of depressing to think about. It’s very hopeful, to me, to think that she could get over all of that pain and learn to give her heart again; much in the same way I hope Ennis has that same redemption later on after Jack dies.
Her devaluation of Ennis as a husband and a father is what makes the "downhill" scenes in their marriage unpleasant to watch.
I agree, it is unpleasant but she had every reason to devalue him - actually she didn’t need to do that - he did that on his own when he broke his vows. And again, I don't think he ever intentionally hurt her, although by not considering the impact of his actions on her he was, in effect, devaluing her long before she began to lose faith in him. There are a lot of dynamics in place there, resulting in Alma feeling the way she did. And having been there, I recognize those feelings and it's hard to express just how devalued she must have felt herself during those years while that slow corrosion was eating her up.
As always just my $0.02 :)
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Great posts. O0
I agree that there was little to let us know just how Alma felt about Monroe, but it would be nice to think that she found some happiness later, wouldn't it? In that context, her reaction to having Ennis in her home at Thanksgiving would be much more about her unresolved feelings toward him than how they might connect in any way to how she felt about her life with Monroe. The look on her face during dinner would surely chill anyone who happened to see it in that moment.
And yes, I agree that Alma was hopeful in the beginning and became understandably hardened through the years as she realized how much lower she ranked with her husband than she'd once thought and hoped for. Couldn't have been a pleasant fall for her.
I think what makes the kitchen scene so hard for me to watch was twofold. First, seeing Ennis get increasingly uncomfortable as he realized where the conversation was going. He was so tightly wound about this that the very idea that she might know something was tearing him up inside. And then to see the rage that he was capable of projecting toward her, not just for what she said about Jack but what her very knowledge of him might mean to him was both unsettling and sad to me. I think that he was just as appalled at himself as he left too. That was one of those moments that I felt we were able to gaze directly on some of his personal demons.
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We all fall in love with an image of someone, which shows up to be less or more false... but false! The less it is false, the longer love will last.
A relatively pessimistic POV, but certainly has more than a bit of truth.
I personally tend to think that people simply become more comfortable with each other as time goes on (or not), and this replaces passionate/romantic love.
As for Monroe - you could be right here considering that Alma have had her passion for Ennis when younger. Now she needed to be secure in the marriage, and Monroe was the one who could give that security to her. Up to a point, we could call it love. But definitely not the same as she has for Ennis. This time was more selfish love than a flame.
And to Monroe's credit, it did seem that he did have a genuine affection for Alma. I don't know if I would call it "selfish". Perhaps an older, more mature, more pragmatic kind of love?
I can agree that the corrosion of their marriage was result of Ennis' attitude towards Alma and their marriage, but I always see Ennis as a good father. Not the best one, surely not perfect, but good! It is just his and Alma's relationship that gave us the most unpleasant scenes of the movie.
To a certain extent, I thought that he was good in that he really loved his daughters. But he made so many things get in the way of giving them that love more fully. That's his problem, IMO.
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I think she loved Ennis once upon a time. The Ennis that she saw a future with, the one she fell in love with, made a family and a life with. The one she could trust and the one who hadn’t yet broken her heart. Not an image she conjured up, but a very real experience.
Yet I sometimes think that she was in love with an Ennis that wasn't particularly his true self -- more like a projection of what she made him out to be. Could the experience have been an illusion? I wondered whether she would have fallen out of love in the long run in any case, even if she didn't catch the 2 of them with Jack. Also, it would seem that even with the lifestyle on lonely ranch, she didn't seem to have agreed that much with Ennis...
I think she loved Monroe. There’s not a lot given to suggest her true feelings either way. But I don’t see why she couldn’t love him. True, some people move on to the next “best thing” because they don’t want to be alone and that could very well be the case. But I’d hate to shackle her to a life of only having one person to truly love in her life, especially one who did her wrong (intentionally or not)- kind of depressing to think about. It’s very hopeful, to me, to think that she could get over all of that pain and learn to give her heart again; much in the same way I hope Ennis has that same redemption later on after Jack dies.
I think so too. I think she loved the fact that Monroe was much more stable. And it did seem that he loved her, and I think this mattered a great deal to her -- to be loved.
I agree, it is unpleasant but she had every reason to devalue him - actually she didn’t need to do that - he did that on his own when he broke his vows. And again, I don't think he ever intentionally hurt her, although by not considering the impact of his actions on her he was, in effect, devaluing her long before she began to lose faith in him. There are a lot of dynamics in place there, resulting in Alma feeling the way she did. And having been there, I recognize those feelings and it's hard to express just how devalued she must have felt herself during those years while that slow corrosion was eating her up.
As always just my $0.02 :)
Interesting. But the difference was that the whole experience made her much much more bitter than Ennis was -- at least on the surface. Or is this not really accurate?
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Great posts. O0
I agree that there was little to let us know just how Alma felt about Monroe, but it would be nice to think that she found some happiness later, wouldn't it? In that context, her reaction to having Ennis in her home at Thanksgiving would be much more about her unresolved feelings toward him than how they might connect in any way to how she felt about her life with Monroe. The look on her face during dinner would surely chill anyone who happened to see it in that moment.
Yes. I would think that the marriage with Alma did her plenty of good. And to a real extent, it gave the children a semblance of family life that was perhaps a bit more "normal"?
And yes, I agree that Alma was hopeful in the beginning and became understandably hardened through the years as she realized how much lower she ranked with her husband than she'd once thought and hoped for. Couldn't have been a pleasant fall for her.
I think what makes the kitchen scene so hard for me to watch was twofold. First, seeing Ennis get increasingly uncomfortable as he realized where the conversation was going. He was so tightly wound about this that the very idea that she might know something was tearing him up inside. And then to see the rage that he was capable of projecting toward her, not just for what she said about Jack but what her very knowledge of him might mean to him was both unsettling and sad to me. I think that he was just as appalled at himself as he left too. That was one of those moments that I felt we were able to gaze directly on some of his personal demons.
"Hardening" is a good way to describe it. I don't think that she was by nature bitter. I felt that she was very affectionate dep inside. This is why the Thanksgiving scene was quite distasteful -- you see Alma and Ennis turned into people they really are not. In the case of Alma, I don't think it was in her nature to be so confrontational.
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A relatively pessimistic POV, but certainly has more than a bit of truth.
I personally tend to think that people simply become more comfortable with each other as time goes on (or not), and this replaces passionate/romantic love.
Sure. I don't think that one excludes the other. Love changes shape, but it can not develop and endure if the image that we created shows up to be completely wrong one. We have to have at least a part of the man/woman we dreamt about.
The image Alma created about Ennis was not wrong, but Ennis was not right. He also didn't know at the beginning that their relationship would go terribly wrong. I believe that if he knew it, he would've never marry Alma.
And here I agree with LNJ:
I agree, it is unpleasant but she had every reason to devalue him - actually she didn't need to do that - he did that on his own when he broke his vows. And again, I don't think he ever intentionally hurt her, although by not considering the impact of his actions on her he was, in effect, devaluing her long before she began to lose faith in him. There are a lot of dynamics in place there, resulting in Alma feeling the way she did.
Her love for Monroe.. :s)... I just can see love there. She came bitter, disappointed, from the marriage she wasn' t respected at in full. Monroe was always so understanding to her, so nice to her and kids... The circumstances show me that her marriage with Monroe is not the result of love. And Monroe was ( I believe deliberately) shown not as the most attractive man on the Earth.That's also a clue. I can't see no real love, real feelings form Alma there. Real home, real money, house, peace, security... but love in it's magic, IMO no!
Scene on Thanksgiving day at the table was extremely unpleasant cos Alma was striking and rolling with her eyes, and I just can't understand why did she ever invite Ennis for dinner? It was obvious that Ennis is very uncomfortable too. Finally the kitchen scene was the culmination of displeasure and we know the rest. Ennis ends up beaten.
Why do you think they invited him for a dinner? Because of the girls or they just felt sorry for him?
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I wondered this at first too. Why was Ennis there? I believe he was there because the girls wanted him to come, not so much Alma and Monroe. Just because he was divorced from Alma, did
nt mean that Ennis divorced the girls from his life though. He felt very close to them. To them, he was just "Daddy", and they did'nt want to think of him alone on Thanksgiving.
I think Monroe got some insight into the marriage when Ennis just dropped the girls off on Alma at work. It also showed the " devaluing" of her role in the marriage. Monroe was right there for Alma when the Alma Jr. knocked over the peanut display. Maybe he heard part of their conversation or thought Ennis physically abusive. Ennis's disregard for her, she gravitated towards Monroe. But love him? no. IMO ,Not like she loved Ennis.
Alma had alot of built up anger inside that Ennis could not be honest with her. Years. The conversation about Ennis"s rodeo days again, reminded her of why she and Ennis were not together...Jack. Anger particularly aimed at "Jack Nasty" and Ennis continuing to lie to her about him and about how he'd stiill be with him. "Once burned" , somehow insinuating she had some major contribution to the breakdown of the marriage did not endear her to Ennis at all. I agree, that she still loved Ennis, but Ennis had been "taken" or "stolen" by Jack. She had held it in for so long , feeling helpless to defend her anger. Maybe she could "let go" after letting him know she knew. Maybe she felt relieved after that..MO
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Great discussion about this. I like your idea, aintfoolin, about how Alma could finally say to Ennis what was pent up for so long, and could then let go of it. I can see it could have been a relief to her, as you said.
I wonder what Monroe knew or didn't know about Ennis.
I always thought Ennis was invited to Thanksgiving just because of what she said, "the girls and I worry about you..."
As to Monroe, I do see a love there. Not a hot first-love like she had with Ennis, but love still. I'm sure there were some sweet sparks in the beginning, as they worked in the store together. She loved him for loving her, not just because he provided security. He probably was very genuine in his trying to make things all nice for her, etc. Sweet but plain guy, in a relatively small life, who would consider Alma a very nice "catch" to build a home and life with.
And was it you, loreen, who mentioned how in the kitchen scene, it could be seen that she directs her anger at Jack Nasty, less than at Ennis, as if it was Jack's fault? Interesting. Or else "Jack Nasty" was just TOO good a line not to use! :)
kathy
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Sure. I don't think that one excludes the other. Love changes shape, but it can not develop and endure if the image that we created shows up to be completely wrong one. We have to have at least a part of the man/woman we dreamt about.
The image Alma created about Ennis was not wrong, but Ennis was not right. He also didn't know at the beginning that their relationship would go terribly wrong. I believe that if he knew it, he would've never marry Alma.
This is true, in that one doers not exclude the other, and that Ennis had no idea that things would go wrong. I really think he thought that he knew his own heart, and it was this misunderstanding that lead to all the unpleasantness with Alma in the years to come.
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I wondered this at first too. Why was Ennis there? I believe he was there because the girls wanted him to come, not so much Alma and Monroe. Just because he was divorced from Alma, did
nt mean that Ennis divorced the girls from his life though. He felt very close to them. To them, he was just "Daddy", and they did'nt want to think of him alone on Thanksgiving.
This is true, but I somehow think he could have gone much futher even as a divorced father. His unwillingness to commit any further is shown in his refusal to take in Alma Jr. simply because of work. Yes, he felt and remained close tp them, but he also kept them apart, if only because of his fears and because he thought that it would be better for them this way. This lack of better judgement was well-intentioned, perhaps, but he could have done much much more as a father.
I think Monroe got some insight into the marriage when Ennis just dropped the girls off on Alma at work. It also showed the " devaluing" of her role in the marriage. Monroe was right there for Alma when the Alma Jr. knocked over the peanut display. Maybe he heard part of their conversation or thought Ennis physically abusive. Ennis's disregard for her, she gravitated towards Monroe. But love him? no. IMO ,Not like she loved Ennis.
Personally, I felt that this was not a devaluation in a strict sense. It was probably what husbands expected at that time and in that part of the world. I would even think that Monroe would have approved Ennis's insistence, rather than look at his action as a devaluation. He probably thought that that was the way things had to be -- and his show of consideration to Alma may also have shown that he understood that she had to do this, in their own world view of how husbands and wives should behave.
Alma had alot of built up anger inside that Ennis could not be honest with her. Years. The conversation about Ennis"s rodeo days again, reminded her of why she and Ennis were not together...Jack. Anger particularly aimed at "Jack Nasty" and Ennis continuing to lie to her about him and about how he'd stiill be with him. "Once burned" , somehow insinuating she had some major contribution to the breakdown of the marriage did not endear her to Ennis at all. I agree, that she still loved Ennis, but Ennis had been "taken" or "stolen" by Jack. She had held it in for so long , feeling helpless to defend her anger. Maybe she could "let go" after letting him know she knew. Maybe she felt relieved after that..MO
I do agree that she must have thought in these terms: that Jack stole her husband. Because of this, there would be no understanding between her and Jack. And yes, I think she was really itching to "let go", if only to purge herself of the bitterness deep inside.
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Great discussion about this. I like your idea, aintfoolin, about how Alma could finally say to Ennis what was pent up for so long, and could then let go of it. I can see it could have been a relief to her, as you said.
I wonder what Monroe knew or didn't know about Ennis.
I always thought Ennis was invited to Thanksgiving just because of what she said, "the girls and I worry about you..."
Good point. And quite possible. I had not thought of it this way.
As to Monroe, I do see a love there. Not a hot first-love like she had with Ennis, but love still. I'm sure there were some sweet sparks in the beginning, as they worked in the store together. She loved him for loving her, not just because he provided security. He probably was very genuine in his trying to make things all nice for her, etc. Sweet but plain guy, in a relatively small life, who would consider Alma a very nice "catch" to build a home and life with.
Same here.
And was it you, loreen, who mentioned how in the kitchen scene, it could be seen that she directs her anger at Jack Nasty, less than at Ennis, as if it was Jack's fault? Interesting. Or else "Jack Nasty" was just TOO good a line not to use! :)
kathy
I felt that she blamed both of them in that scene. But you are probably right that Alma viewed Jack as the instigator -- the tempter. This most unpleasant of scenes is made even more unpleasant by the injection of Jack into the midst of it all. He is the invisible combatant in that fight/confrontation.
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I wonder what Monroe knew or didn't know about Ennis.
I always thought Ennis was invited to Thanksgiving just because of what she said, "the girls and I worry about you..."
And was it you, loreen, who mentioned how in the kitchen scene, it could be seen that she directs her anger at Jack Nasty, less than at Ennis, as if it was Jack's fault? Interesting. Or else "Jack Nasty" was just TOO good a line not to use! :)
kathy
First, good point here -what Monroe knew about Ennis? All? Was Alma capable to speak out about her worst humiliation to her new husband? i don't think so, but again we can't be sure.
I think that "the girls and I worry about you" was an overture for her attack, more than an explanation for inviting him. Especially cos I don't believe that Alma was worried about him at all.
Finally, Kathy I think it was AF who said that, but I am also not sure. Anyway, that was good point - transferring the guilt to the person we're not emotionally attached to.
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This is true, in that one doers not exclude the other, and that Ennis had no idea that things would go wrong. I really think he thought that he knew his own heart, and it was this misunderstanding that lead to all the unpleasantness with Alma in the years to come.
Yes, tpe! And here we come again to falling in love with someone image - Alma fell in love with an image that she had about Ennis, but at the time - Ennis had a same image about himself. Later, they both proved to be wrong!
What I want to say is that sometimes we don't even know our own soul and who we are, not to mention others. Acceptance of faults and sacrifice in the terms of tolerate them is something that we can chose to embrace or to refuse wheather is about us or people we loved. I think that Alma and Ennis failed there. They both refuse to accept the wrong image of Ennis, which lead them to an anxious and unpleasant divorce and bitter relationship afterwards.
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Yes, tpe! And here we come again to falling in love with someone image - Alma fell in love with an image that she had about Ennis, but at the time - Ennis had a same image about himself. Later, they both proved to be wrong!
What I want to say is that sometimes we don't even know our own soul and who we are, not to mention others. Acceptance of faults and sacrifice in the terms of tolerate them is something that we can chose to embrace or to refuse wheather is about us or people we loved. I think that Alma and Ennis failed there. They both refuse to accept the wrong image of Ennis, which lead them to an anxious and unpleasant divorce and bitter relationship afterwards.
I think Alma had a great deal to do with how Ennis perceived himself. After all, she had society and convention by her side to aid her with this.
I think that for most of us self identity needs some kind of affirmation outside ourselves. Very rarely do we find people who have the strength to affirm their identity without reference to those around them. This is the power of societal pressure. They make relative truths seem absolute.
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Yes, tpe! And here we come again to falling in love with someone image - Alma fell in love with an image that she had about Ennis, but at the time - Ennis had a same image about himself. Later, they both proved to be wrong!
What I want to say is that sometimes we don't even know our own soul and who we are, not to mention others. Acceptance of faults and sacrifice in the terms of tolerate them is something that we can chose to embrace or to refuse wheather is about us or people we loved. I think that Alma and Ennis failed there. They both refuse to accept the wrong image of Ennis, which lead them to an anxious and unpleasant divorce and bitter relationship afterwards.
I like the way you put that - that Ennis has the same wrong image of himself in the beginning that Alma has. It was the idea of who they both believed and hoped he could be. That he was unable to be that person for either of them was disappointing to both of them.
I do think that Alma did all that she could with what she had though. Making a home for them to the best of her ability with limited resources, putting aside what she saw in the reunion scene to try to make their marriage work, making affectionate overtures (while at the same time testing her suspicions) with her notes in the tackle box, etc. When she finally felt that he would never make an effort to pursue better jobs to provide for them better and that he was never going to stop meeting up with Jack, she saw the writing on the wall and decided that she couldn’t live that way anymore. All those years of trying to adapt to the Ennis that she got as opposed to the Ennis that she thought she was getting didn’t accomplish her goal - he was simply incapable of giving himself to her and too wrapped up in his fears and unhappiness to see how she was being affected by it. That slow corrosion that worked between them was a natural effect of the circumstances they both found themselves in.
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I think Alma had a great deal to do with how Ennis perceived himself. After all, she had society and convention by her side to aid her with this.
I think that for most of us self identity needs some kind of affirmation outside ourselves. Very rarely do we find people who have the strength to affirm their identity without reference to those around them. This is the power of societal pressure. They make relative truths seem absolute.
Hm... a normal life with Alma was something that was meant to be before Jack. If not, who knows! Maybe Jack would have more chances... What I want to say is that Alma IMO didn't have a bare impact on Ennis even later when they had their "normal life". I even don't see her as a package of the socielty. I see her isloated from the society in the same way Ennis was. But they were definitely under the social pressure.
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I like the way you put that - that Ennis has the same wrong image of himself in the beginning that Alma has. It was the idea of who they both believed and hoped he could be. That he was unable to be that person for either of them was disappointing to both of them.
I do think that Alma did all that she could with what she had though. Making a home for them to the best of her ability with limited resources, putting aside what she saw in the reunion scene to try to make their marriage work, making affectionate overtures (while at the same time testing her suspicions) with her notes in the tackle box, etc. When she finally felt that he would never make an effort to pursue better jobs to provide for them better and that he was never going to stop meeting up with Jack, she saw the writing on the wall and decided that she couldn’t live that way anymore. All those years of trying to adapt to the Ennis that she got as opposed to the Ennis that she thought she was getting didn’t accomplish her goal - he was simply incapable of giving himself to her and too wrapped up in his fears and unhappiness to see how she was being affected by it. That slow corrosion that worked between them was a natural effect of the circumstances they both found themselves in.
I believe that I often perceive their situation through my own glasses. I don't belong to their time or world, and some things are very difficult for me to understand. Maybe I am too harsh to Alma sometimes, cos one way or the other she is the victim. The way she manage everything was the way I would surely avoid myself, but Alma's situation is too far away from mine. She obviously tried to accept Ennis' relationship with Jack, but she failed at last.
Last time when we see Alma smiling was before Jack arrived and she asked Ennis about hiring a babysitter and bring Jack to "Knife&fork". After that she didn't smile again. She had been through a really hard times. In a way she was a lot like Ennis -holding things inside and suffer silently. Bad choice IMO, but she knew for nothing else!
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Hm... a normal life with Alma was something that was meant to be before Jack. If not, who knows! Maybe Jack would have more chances... What I want to say is that Alma IMO didn't have a bare impact on Ennis even later when they had their "normal life". I even don't see her as a package of the socielty. I see her isloated from the society in the same way Ennis was. But they were definitely under the social pressure.
For me, she stood for what society at large expected of Ennis -- to be a good huband to Alma and a dutiful father to their children. It was a society that would never approve of his relationship with Jack. And Alma's disapproval over their relationship perfectly mirrors that disapproval.
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For me, she stood for what society at large expected of Ennis -- to be a good huband to Alma and a dutiful father to their children. It was a society that would never approve of his relationship with Jack. And Alma's disapproval over their relationship perfectly mirrors that disapproval.
I agree. She was a part of that society and it's rules, but we saw her as an isloated unit. The same as Ennis.
What I want to say is that we only see the impact of the society, but not the direct relationship. We see much more of that in Jack's case.
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I agree. She was a part of that society and it's rules, but we saw her as an isloated unit. The same as Ennis.
What I want to say is that we only see the impact of the society, but not the direct relationship. We see much more of that in Jack's case.
Jack took more risks, shall we say. He definitely exposed himself to some danger, and that is what makes the scene with the Rodeo clown so unpleasant.
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Jack took more risks, shall we say. He definitely exposed himself to some danger, and that is what makes the scene with the Rodeo clown so unpleasant.
I found each scene where Jack was humiliated or ignored, ridiculed, disappointed... to be extremely unpleasant. :( Why Jack touched me so deep I don't know, but he did, and I can't stand any kind of harassment Jack! :\'(
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I found each scene where Jack was humiliated or ignored, ridiculed, disappointed... to be extremely unpleasant. :( Why Jack touched me so deep I don't know, but he did, and I can't stand any kind of harassment Jack! :\'(
I think he touches us because we see how quietly he handles each humiliation, and picks himself right back up. Unpleasant though these scenes may be, you cannot help but admire Jack's patience and sense of self-worth.
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I think he touches us because we see how quietly he handles each humiliation, and picks himself right back up. Unpleasant though these scenes may be, you cannot help but admire Jack's patience and sense of self-worth.
Yes, especially cos we know how iniquitous life had been to him, starting from childhood to his cruel death. And all this time he kept his goodness and kindness, losing nothing of his humanity.
He danced with LaShawn who was so tiresome, and he looked so interested in her stupid talking, making her (who was very boring person), comfortable about herself. Oh Jack! He's the man!
OK, this was off topic! ~)
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Yes, especially cos we know how iniquitous life had been to him, starting from childhood to his cruel death. And all this time he kept his goodness and kindness, losing nothing of his humanity.
He danced with LaShawn who was so tiresome, and he looked so interested in her stupid talking, making her (who was very boring person), comfortable about herself. Oh Jack! He's the man!
OK, this was off topic! ~)
To be sure, Jack was gracious and charming when he wanted to be seen as such.
Most unpleasant was to see his father (in the LF scenes) belittel his son -- or so I have interpreted some of his words to Ennis. The humiliation and aspersions didn't end in death...
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To be sure, Jack was gracious and charming when he wanted to be seen as such.
Most unpleasant was to see his father (in the LF scenes) belittel his son -- or so I have interpreted some of his words to Ennis. The humiliation and aspersions didn't end in death...
Yes,but not only OMT is unpleasant there,but all LF scenes also.The only good point during them is the complicity and mutual affection that is created between Mrs. Twist and Ennis,the only thing that "saves" us for a rather disgusting view.And,of course,Jack's father "had" to humiliate his dead son because he knew-or suspected-what kind of relationship there had been between he and this man he had before;it's kind of destroying his son's image before his lover's eyes at the same than he humiliates and saddens Ennis for being who he is...
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Yes,but not only OMT is unpleasant there,but all LF scenes also.The only good point during them is the complicity and mutual affection that is created between Mrs. Twist and Ennis,the only thing that "saves" us for a rather disgusting view.And,of course,Jack's father "had" to humiliate his dead son because he knew-or suspected-what kind of relationship there had been between he and this man he had before;it's kind of destroying his son's image before his lover's eyes at the same than he humiliates and saddens Ennis for being who he is...
LF scene is definitely the most unpleasant scene of the movie, but IMO that is because Jack's dead and we have nothing to hope for. Anyway, old goat John Twist didn't succeeded in his wish to humiliate Ennis. Not even a bit! Ennis was so proud, even vulnerable. My heart there bleeds for Jack, for not being respected by his own father even after dead. :\'(
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To be sure, Jack was gracious and charming when he wanted to be seen as such.
Most unpleasant was to see his father (in the LF scenes) belittel his son -- or so I have interpreted some of his words to Ennis. The humiliation and aspersions didn't end in death...
Jack was always gracious and charming! :)
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Jack was always gracious and charming! :)
Which is what made the Last Confrontation so hard to watch -- because it is so against the grain of the Jack we have come to know and love.
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Which is what made the Last Confrontation so hard to watch -- because it is so against the grain of the Jack we have come to know and love.
Don't we all have our limits? Jack's were very high, so high that he endured 17 years of rejection, solitude, struggle with Ennis' fears, LD, his family situation etc.etc. without losing his capability to love and to sympathize with others.
He was angry during FC, but still showed to be vulnerable and tender to the end.
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Don't we all have our limits? Jack's were very high, so high that he endured 17 years of rejection, solitude, struggle with Ennis' fears, LD, his family situation etc.etc. without losing his capability to love and to sympathize with others.
He was angry during FC, but still showed to be vulnerable and tender to the end.
Of course,Jack's capacity of love is one of his qualities we appreciate the most and what makes us love him so much. <^( It's a too heavy burden for someone to stand during half his life as not exploding at the end,specially by seeing his lover is not able to understand his reasons.But the old dear Jack of always appears again with all his tenderness by forgetting all his sorrows when Ennis discovers his vulnerability too. And,specially,when he says in few words-being Ennis,what else?...-that he really loves him and needs him,it's when he runs to comfort him,being firstly Ennis and after himself...
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Don't we all have our limits? Jack's were very high, so high that he endured 17 years of rejection, solitude, struggle with Ennis' fears, LD, his family situation etc.etc. without losing his capability to love and to sympathize with others.
He was angry during FC, but still showed to be vulnerable and tender to the end.
Of course,Jack's capacity of love is one of his qualities we appreciate the most and what makes us love him so much. <^( It's a too heavy burden for someone to stand during half his life as not exploding at the end,specially by seeing his lover is not able to understand his reasons.But the old dear Jack of always appears again with all his tenderness by forgetting all his sorrows when Ennis discovers his vulnerability too. And,specially,when he says in few words-being Ennis,what else?...-that he really loves him and needs him,it's when he runs to comfort him,being firstly Ennis and after himself...
He was, indeed. I also think that he was still angry as he hugged Ennis and said "Damn you, Ennis!" The fact that he couldn't help but love Ennis didn't negate the fact that Ennis didn't make it any easier...
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He was, indeed. I also think that he was still angry as he hugged Ennis and said "Damn you, Ennis!" The fact that he couldn't help but love Ennis didn't negate the fact that Ennis didn't make it any easier...
Ennis surely didn't make it any easier, but was Jack really only angry at the end... I am not so sure. Maybe resignated, maybe disappointed, hurt, sad, but I think that he couldn't keep his anger towards Ennis so long. His Love for Ennis was too big and too deep and it always scattered his anger. Too much love in that big heart of Jack's!
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Ennis surely didn't make it any easier, but was Jack really only angry at the end... I am not so sure. Maybe resignated, maybe disappointed, hurt, sad, but I think that he couldn't keep his anger towards Ennis so long. His Love for Ennis was too big and too deep and it always scattered his anger. Too much love in that big heart of Jack's!
No, he wasn't just angry. He was also full of compassion. And after the hug, yes, he became resigned, disappointed, sad, but also understanding. We see all these mixed feelings in his parting look -- a complex look that is a masterpiece in Jake Gyllenhaal's best style.
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No, he wasn't just angry. He was also full of compassion. And after the hug, yes, he became resigned, disappointed, sad, but also understanding. We see all these mixed feelings in his parting look -- a complex look that is a masterpiece in Jake Gyllenhaal's best style.
And when we know that it is the last time we see him alive... :\'( it is so very sad! Ennis just left and Jack left there so lonely with his thoughts. :(
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No, he wasn't just angry. He was also full of compassion. And after the hug, yes, he became resigned, disappointed, sad, but also understanding. We see all these mixed feelings in his parting look -- a complex look that is a masterpiece in Jake Gyllenhaal's best style.
Yes,I have also thought that it's several mixed feelings what we se in Jack's eyes.But above,an inmense sadness...
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Yes,I have also thought that it's several mixed feelings what we se in Jack's eyes.But above,an inmense sadness...
His look there is a killer! All the pain throughout 20 years is concentrated in his look. You're right - an immense sadness! :(
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And when we know that it is the last time we see him alive... :\'( it is so very sad! Ennis just left and Jack left there so lonely with his thoughts. :(
Well, the worst part of it is that the audience largely didn't know that this was the last true look of Jack. We really don't "see" him during the tire-iron scene, if you know what I mean!
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Yes,I have also thought that it's several mixed feelings what we se in Jack's eyes.But above,an inmense sadness...
It was really a very complicated look, showing so many conflicting emotions all at the same time. It conjures mixed feelings -- both pleasant and unpleasant -- from us, the viewers. The NY Times revewer especially noted this, if I recall correctly. And with good reason.
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Well, the worst part of it is that the audience largely didn't know that this was the last true look of Jack. We really don't "see" him during the tire-iron scene, if you know what I mean!
I think I know what you mean, but even if it is the tire-iron that killed him, we really do not want to see him there. That's not Jack we know and we want. That is the poor and sad victim of evil monsters. And our Jack is a dear lively man. That is why we can not stand that scene, apart from the fact that is violent and disgusting.
:\'( :\'( :\'(
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I think I know what you mean, but even if it is the tire-iron that killed him, we really do not want to see him there. That's not Jack we know and we want. That is the poor and sad victim of evil monsters. And our Jack is a dear lively man. That is why we can not stand that scene, apart from the fact that is violent and disgusting.
:\'( :\'( :\'(
You know, I really get this strange feeling when I watch the tire-iron scene that it is not Jack, but something like a hollow shell... Does this make sense?
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You know, I really get this strange feeling when I watch the tire-iron scene that it is not Jack, but something like a hollow shell... Does this make sense?
Of course,it does...We have learned to love Jack,so it's very logical that we try to hide reality before our eyes; pretending that this beaten man is a symbol of hate and intolerance,but nor necessarily our Jack... :\'(
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Of course,it does...We have learned to love Jack,so it's very logical that we try to hide reality before our eyes; pretending that this beaten man is a symbol of hate and intolerance,but nor necessarily our Jack... :\'(
This is so true, although I admit that I have never thought about it along these lines. It is a natural form of self-defense...
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You know, I really get this strange feeling when I watch the tire-iron scene that it is not Jack, but something like a hollow shell... Does this make sense?
Of course,it does...We have learned to love Jack,so it's very logical that we try to hide reality before our eyes; pretending that this beaten man is a symbol of hate and intolerance,but nor necessarily our Jack... :\'(
I believe that we just love Jack so much and we so want him to succeed in his "battle" for sweet life with Ennis, that we just don't want to see him beaten, to see him eternally prevented in his most beautiful dreams by a people who doesn't even care how dear and good, how loving and tender this man was. That is unbearable fact.
We can not see him together with them. They are evil, they are emotionless, the are murderers, they are inhuman ^*), and Jack was our baby, our young man, our lover, and our love in that movie. We can't see them together, so we just emptied his shell, and it wasn't him any more. And we keep him in our memory the attractive man he was -from inside and outside! <^(
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I believe that we just love Jack so much and we so want him to succeed in his "battle" for sweet life with Ennis, that we just don't want to see him beaten, to see him eternally prevented in his most beautiful dreams by a people who doesn't even care how dear and good, how loving and tender this man was. That is unbearable fact.
We can not see him together with them. They are evil, they are emotionless, the are murderers, they are inhuman ^*), and Jack was our baby, our young man, our lover, and our love in that movie. We can't see them together, so we just emptied his shell, and it wasn't him any more. And we keep him in our memory the attractive man he was -from inside and outside! <^(
Aww. I started feeling really sad when I read your first paragraph. I love how you are able to put such complexities together and be able to express them so well. The second paragraph couldn't have been more on the spot, I love the last two sentences, we will all keep him in our memory, just like you said, from the inside to the outside. :)
- wow, after reading that and writing it, I got rather emotional and saddened. Well like I was told by Ethan, I should enjoy this raw emotion, so I will try even if it does hurt...
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I believe that we just love Jack so much and we so want him to succeed in his "battle" for sweet life with Ennis, that we just don't want to see him beaten, to see him eternally prevented in his most beautiful dreams by a people who doesn't even care how dear and good, how loving and tender this man was. That is unbearable fact.
We can not see him together with them. They are evil, they are emotionless, the are murderers, they are inhuman ^*), and Jack was our baby, our young man, our lover, and our love in that movie. We can't see them together, so we just emptied his shell, and it wasn't him any more. And we keep him in our memory the attractive man he was -from inside and outside! <^(
I do think it is a protectiveness we feel for Jack that makes us feel this way. Indeed, I find every scene we see him disappointed as somewhat distasteful...
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I do think it is a protectiveness we feel for Jack that makes us feel this way. Indeed, I find every scene we see him disappointed as somewhat distasteful...
:-\\ Meaning? :s)
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:-\\ Meaning? :s)
... that we are disappointed when we see Jack disappointed.
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... that we are disappointed when we see Jack disappointed.
OMG! ~)
I read it wrong! I thought that you said that you DON'T THINK THAT IT IS PROTECTIVENESS....
And I just couldn't connect the meaning. :i
Sure! It is the protectiveness and much more we feel for him. Even during his minor discomfort we feel for him, and the killing scene is an ultimate horror for us -seeing him being beaten and murdered. Our pain we avoid by taking him out of that scene in our mind, placing him in our heart the man he was!
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OMG! ~)
I read it wrong! I thought that you said that you DON'T THINK THAT IT IS PROTECTIVENESS....
And I just couldn't connect the meaning. :i
Sure! It is the protectiveness and much more we feel for him. Even during his minor discomfort we feel for him, and the killing scene is an ultimate horror for us -seeing him being beaten and murdered. Our pain we avoid by taking him out of that scene in our mind, placing him in our heart the man he was!
I think that mentally, we tend to "adopt" the characters, and feel that we have a stake in them. This is a mark of how wonderful BBM is as a work of Art. But it also ties to to their disappointments, and to the inevitable tragedy...
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I think that mentally, we tend to "adopt" the characters, and feel that we have a stake in them. This is a mark of how wonderful BBM is as a work of Art. But it also ties to to their disappointments, and to the inevitable tragedy...
... and to an unbearable pain and sorrow of PBS that we all feel in one stage or the other, to one extent or the other. But the connection we establish with them is so real and so profound that we take them not as a characters, but as a close parts of our lives. I believe that I can say this for all/most of us here.
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... and to an unbearable pain and sorrow of PBS that we all feel in one stage or the other, to one extent or the other. But the connection we establish with them is so real and so profound that we take them not as a characters, but as a close parts of our lives. I believe that I can say this for all/most of us here.
I think that this is also in part related to our way of seeing things mirrored in our own lives -- especially some of the more unpleasant aspects in the love of Ennis and Jack. This way ofr connecting goes a long way in explaining aspects of PBS in all of us at some time or another, and why some scenes (unpleasant or otherwise) strike us more than others...
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I think that this is also in part related to our way of seeing things mirrored in our own lives -- especially some of the more unpleasant aspects in the love of Ennis and Jack. This way ofr connecting goes a long way in explaining aspects of PBS in all of us at some time or another, and why some scenes (unpleasant or otherwise) strike us more than others...
You're right here. I needed a few months until i found out what is about BBM that is so unbearable for me personally, especially cos I had no obvious relation with this kind of a theme. I elaborated a part of it in PBS thread, and it helped me.
It is also the fact that unlike other movies, in BBM most of the scenes are cute/sexy/goood, or unpleasant/disturbing... there isn't many neutral scenes where we just don't imply our feelings like in other movies. Here, we are so emotionally involved that we personally live through each scene. If a scene is pleasant for E&J, than it is for us too, and vice versa. This movie has an enormous impact on us! ???
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You're right here. I needed a few months until i found out what is about BBM that is so unbearable for me personally, especially cos I had no obvious relation with this kind of a theme. I elaborated a part of it in PBS thread, and it helped me.
It is also the fact that unlike other movies, in BBM most of the scenes are cute/sexy/goood, or unpleasant/disturbing... there isn't many neutral scenes where we just don't imply our feelings like in other movies. Here, we are so emotionally involved that we personally live through each scene. If a scene is pleasant for E&J, than it is for us too, and vice versa. This movie has an enormous impact on us! ???
The feeling we get -- even in some of the most unpleasant scenes -- is pure katharsis. And yet, it is a purging where a strange feeling lingers long after the initial cleansing. We call this PBS, but in a real sense, such a feeling is inherent in what is identified as the tragic element in the very best of classical drama.
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The feeling we get -- even in some of the most unpleasant scenes -- is pure katharsis. And yet, it is a purging where a strange feeling lingers long after the initial cleansing. We call this PBS, but in a real sense, such a feeling is inherent in what is identified as the tragic element in the very best of classical drama.
I don't know what it is, but I felt nothing like this before, and sure wasn't easy. Each unpleasant scene I take so personally as if it's mine own life. That I can not explain, even I figured out the symbolism of BBM for me.
But I suppose that it gets easier with time.
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I don't know what it is, but I felt nothing like this before, and sure wasn't easy. Each unpleasant scene I take so personally as if it's mine own life. That I can not explain, even I figured out the symbolism of BBM for me.
But I suppose that it gets easier with time.
It took me 2 days trying to process how I felt. It wasn't pleasant, but it also wasn't something I wanted to forget. At the end of the 2 days, I just had to go back for more...
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It took me 2 days trying to process how I felt. It wasn't pleasant, but it also wasn't something I wanted to forget. At the end of the 2 days, I just had to go back for more...
It took much more time for me. And it was too painful to tolerate for weeks. I am still amazed how new Brokies come here all the time, with the same feeling of shock, sadness, surprise and all the other emotions that BBM wakes up in people. Incredible!
Also, it is incredible how scenes in BBM don't lose in their intensity weather we are watching them the first, the tenth or 100th time! Sexy scenes can always make me tremble, and the unpleasant ones can make me feel like choking, or crying/sobbing....
Any other movie - after a few times watching for me is over, done, never again, but BBM scenes - I NEED, I yearn for more and more. %&)
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It took much more time for me. And it was too painful to tolerate for weeks. I am still amazed how new Brokies come here all the time, with the same feeling of shock, sadness, surprise and all the other emotions that BBM wakes up in people. Incredible!
Also, it is incredible how scenes in BBM don't lose in their intensity weather we are watching them the first, the tenth or 100th time! Sexy scenes can always make me tremble, and the unpleasant ones can make me feel like choking, or crying/sobbing....
Any other movie - after a few times watching for me is over, done, never again, but BBM scenes - I NEED, I yearn for more and more. %&)
It is a testament to the real power of the film -- that it touches people long after the initial hype surrounding the film in 2005-2006. And the intensity of the scenes is no way impared by the passage of time. The scenes that we dislike the most continue to have their grip on the imagination simply because they touch on the "hidden nerve". The film may be finction, but the emotions dealt with are real and (many times) painful.
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It is a testament to the real power of the film -- that it touches people long after the initial hype surrounding the film in 2005-2006. And the intensity of the scenes is no way impared by the passage of time. The scenes that we dislike the most continue to have their grip on the imagination simply because they touch on the "hidden nerve". The film may be finction, but the emotions dealt with are real and (many times) painful.
:clap: :clap: Great post tpe! ^f^
It is really a "hidden nerve". Something I never knew I have in me, some emotions woken up for the first time in life... Also, we all know that it's a fiction, but in a way it mixes with a real world in some strange manner. The worst thing is that it doesn't go away and the most peculiar thing is that none knows who's chosen to be shattered. We are so different here, but all have the same wound in the heart.
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:clap: :clap: Great post tpe! ^f^
It is really a "hidden nerve". Something I never knew I have in me, some emotions woken up for the first time in life... Also, we all know that it's a fiction, but in a way it mixes with a real world in some strange manner. The worst thing is that it doesn't go away and the most peculiar thing is that none knows who's chosen to be shattered. We are so different here, but all have the same wound in the heart.
I really couldn't agree more. I've watched other films but none of them really tore me like this. I still hurt from the emotional pain, and I'm a little emotionally damaged now but I'm really glad that I did see it finally. That hidden nerve that you guys mention had never been struck before, maybe lightly, but after BBM, it was totally rocked back and forth and it couldn't recover... it was like it was waiting for it to happen... if that makes sense.
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I really couldn't agree more. I've watched other films but none of them really tore me like this. I still hurt from the emotional pain, and I'm a little emotionally damaged now but I'm really glad that I did see it finally. That hidden nerve that you guys mention had never been struck before, maybe lightly, but after BBM, it was totally rocked back and forth and it couldn't recover... it was like it was waiting for it to happen... if that makes sense.
Sure it makes sense. ^f^
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:clap: :clap: Great post tpe! ^f^
It is really a "hidden nerve". Something I never knew I have in me, some emotions woken up for the first time in life... Also, we all know that it's a fiction, but in a way it mixes with a real world in some strange manner. The worst thing is that it doesn't go away and the most peculiar thing is that none knows who's chosen to be shattered. We are so different here, but all have the same wound in the heart.
loreen, I am so glad that you understood what I mean by the "hidden nerve". I find is so hard to describe, so thank you for getting it perfectly.
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I really couldn't agree more. I've watched other films but none of them really tore me like this. I still hurt from the emotional pain, and I'm a little emotionally damaged now but I'm really glad that I did see it finally. That hidden nerve that you guys mention had never been struck before, maybe lightly, but after BBM, it was totally rocked back and forth and it couldn't recover... it was like it was waiting for it to happen... if that makes sense.
Thanks also, Lobsel-Vith.
I think we don't necessarily dislike amy of the scenes per se -- it's just that it brings up things inside ourselves that we didn't really expect. It is being being caught off guard with regards to things deep inside us that sometimes strikes us as most unpleasant.
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loreen, I am so glad that you understood what I mean by the "hidden nerve". I find is so hard to describe, so thank you for getting it perfectly.
I believe that all of us discovered that we have something hidden after watching this movie. And even I manage to describe myself the meaning of BBM for myself, it's power to shake our fundamental being will always remain a mystery. That goes especially for me, who never had any favorite movie, or an actor... I enjoyed in things superficially and it was enough for me. Here in BBM I am splitting hair in 4 for each scene. This movie has turned me upside down! So, I know what the "hidden nerve" means... even I still don't know what it is... :) ?
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Thanks also, Lobsel-Vith.
I think we don't necessarily dislike amy of the scenes per se -- it's just that it brings up things inside ourselves that we didn't really expect. It is being being caught off guard with regards to things deep inside us that sometimes strikes us as most unpleasant.
In that sense, the scene which really killed me is the one when Ennis finds the shirts. That one is utterly devastating for my emotions, but it is not the one I can dislike... I dislike the scene of killing Jack - that one is also devastating, but in a different way. In the shirt scene, as sad as it is, I want to see Jack and I want to embrace Ennis - I want to participate. In the killing Jack scene, I want to escape and to neglect it as a reality. :s) Does this make sense?
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In that sense, the scene which really killed me is the one when Ennis finds the shirts. That one is utterly devastating for my emotions, but it is not the one I can dislike... I dislike the scene of killing Jack - that one is also devastating, but in a different way. In the shirt scene, as sad as it is, I want to see Jack and I want to embrace Ennis - I want to participate. In the killing Jack scene, I want to escape and to neglect it as a reality. :s) Does this make sense?
I hate the scene with Jack's death... I dislike it because we lose him... :( I personally realize that I also dislike any scene with Lureen... She's the character I dislike in the film due to the fact that it was probably her who set it up with Jack in the end and everything... I think that's also why I don't like my current title... Lureen...
Anyway, I also felt the same thing with the shirts. I wanted to hug Ennis and make him feel better, and for them to see eachother again and to admit their feelings.
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I hate the scene with Jack's death... I dislike it because we lose him... :( I personally realize that I also dislike any scene with Lureen... She's the character I dislike in the film due to the fact that it was probably her who set it up with Jack in the end and everything... I think that's also why I don't like my current title... Lureen...
Anyway, I also felt the same thing with the shirts. I wanted to hug Ennis and make him feel better, and for them to see eachother again and to admit their feelings.
Hm... I don't believe that Lureen had anything to do with Jack's death. I believe that she loved him in her way.
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Hm... I don't believe that Lureen had anything to do with Jack's death. I believe that she loved him in her way.
Yeah but the sort of lack of compassion from the part where Ennis and she are talking on the phone made me sort of dislike her - a lot... I mean, she was just so cold in how she was explaining what happened... It just made me think that perhaps she had found out and it really upset her... even more than when Alma found it but Lureen didn't take it.
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Yeah but the sort of lack of compassion from the part where Ennis and she are talking on the phone made me sort of dislike her - a lot... I mean, she was just so cold in how she was explaining what happened... It just made me think that perhaps she had found out and it really upset her... even more than when Alma found it but Lureen didn't take it.
I don't know why, but I was always fond of her much more than of Alma. Maybe it's not fair cos poor Alma had many difficult moments with Ennis, but Lureen seemed very easy to deal with. I only dislike her not loving Jack later the same as in the beginning, but this can also be only her pose. She cried during her talk with Ennis and in another thread one Brokie explained very well that her tears could show that she felt guilty not knowing her husband enough. Still I believe that she loved him! In her way! And yes, finally she realized the truth, and as expected it wasn't easy for her.
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I don't know why, but I was always fond of her much more than of Alma. Maybe it's not fair cos poor Alma had many difficult moments with Ennis, but Lureen seemed very easy to deal with. I only dislike her not loving Jack later the same as in the beginning, but this can also be only her pose. She cried during her talk with Ennis and in another thread one Brokie explained very well that her tears could show that she felt guilty not knowing her husband enough. Still I believe that she loved him! In her way! And yes, finally she realized the truth, and as expected it wasn't easy for her.
That's a good perspective. I mean, I do like her earlier but it just seems like she was insensitive toward his death. I did notice the tears and stuff when she was crying while talking to Ennis and he was telling her basically the reason why Jack wanted his ashes scattered up there, and she came to full realization but I just thought that perhaps she was somehow involved. I do regard her differently, she was my favorite character after Jack and Ennis but after the final part I kind of just disliked her... Her earlier character I still like but one can see in the film that she suspects something but really doesn't let it get to her until Ennis tells her that he and Jack were up there one summer.
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That's a good perspective. I mean, I do like her earlier but it just seems like she was insensitive toward his death. I did notice the tears and stuff when she was crying while talking to Ennis and he was telling her basically the reason why Jack wanted his ashes scattered up there, and she came to full realization but I just thought that perhaps she was somehow involved. I do regard her differently, she was my favorite character after Jack and Ennis but after the final part I kind of just disliked her... Her earlier character I still like but one can see in the film that she suspects something but really doesn't let it get to her until Ennis tells her that he and Jack were up there one summer.
Many people here don't like her very much. That's personal thing. I think that in the moment Jack married her- she was the best thing that could happen to Jack (besides Ennis, but he was far away and not willing to accept sweet life). He was alone, she loved him (in a way i think that he loved her too), he was broke, she was loaded, he had no proper job, she(her father) had a company .... and so on... She was Jack's jackpot at the time! In later years, she really didn't show enough affection towards him, especially cos he was the man who really needed love and I resent that. IMO she loved him in her half cold half superficial way, but she did!
She was talking about his death in a cold way from outside, but as Lance said - she took a half of his ashes and buried it in Texas. That's also indicating!
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Many people here don't like her very much. That's personal thing. I think that in the moment Jack married her- she was the best thing that could happen to Jack (besides Ennis, but he was far away and not willing to accept sweet life). He was alone, she loved him (in a way i think that he loved her too), he was broke, she was loaded, he had no proper job, she(her father) had a company .... and so on... She was Jack's jackpot at the time! In later years, she really didn't show enough affection towards him, especially cos he was the man who really needed love and I resent that. IMO she loved him in her half cold half superficial way, but she did!
She was talking about his death in a cold way from outside, but as Lance said - she took a half of his ashes and buried it in Texas. That's also indicating!
That is very indicating. I don't ever think I really got that she did bury some of them, I just thought she had them still with her... She was his savior any many ways as you did say because she had it all, that he could need, except that he didn't love her like Ennis. I just thought that she had the negativity toward his death and that made me really dislike her. I guess maybe if I watch again, I can see what you point out and change my perspective. When you say that she was talking about his death 'in a cold way, on the outside' what do you mean? I don't quite understand it...
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That is very indicating. I don't ever think I really got that she did bury some of them, I just thought she had them still with her... She was his savior any many ways as you did say because she had it all, that he could need, except that he didn't love her like Ennis. I just thought that she had the negativity toward his death and that made me really dislike her. I guess maybe if I watch again, I can see what you point out and change my perspective. When you say that she was talking about his death 'in a cold way, on the outside' what do you mean? I don't quite understand it...
Yes, you should pay attention next time. Each time I also discover new things when watching, and it is always amazing! <^(
What I meant about Lureen is that maybe it was a pose, but inside she was sad about his death! When she said how young he was when he died - she really felt it! And Ennis.... he was devastated. :\'(
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I believe that all of us discovered that we have something hidden after watching this movie. And even I manage to describe myself the meaning of BBM for myself, it's power to shake our fundamental being will always remain a mystery. That goes especially for me, who never had any favorite movie, or an actor... I enjoyed in things superficially and it was enough for me. Here in BBM I am splitting hair in 4 for each scene. This movie has turned me upside down! So, I know what the "hidden nerve" means... even I still don't know what it is... :) ?
Even though BBM contains scenes that might be very distasterful to some of us, I think that most of us here would not have it any other way... The balance with the beautiful/peaceful scenes and the sad/tumultuous all make BBM the artistic masterpiece that it is.
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In that sense, the scene which really killed me is the one when Ennis finds the shirts. That one is utterly devastating for my emotions, but it is not the one I can dislike... I dislike the scene of killing Jack - that one is also devastating, but in a different way. In the shirt scene, as sad as it is, I want to see Jack and I want to embrace Ennis - I want to participate. In the killing Jack scene, I want to escape and to neglect it as a reality. :s) Does this make sense?
Yes, the finding of the shirts is hard to watch, but it is a beautiful/heartfelt scene that we cannot really dislike. The murder scene is a totally different story. It is hard to watch and a horror to contemplate.
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Even though BBM contains scenes that might be very distasterful to some of us, I think that most of us here would not have it any other way... The balance with the beautiful/peaceful scenes and the sad/tumultuous all make BBM the artistic masterpiece that it is.
Hm... I have to admit that I would have some scenes in completely different way. Even recently I manage to find a sort of peace in myself, the first weeks of BBM stroke and sad scenes were too much to tolerate. :i
Anyway, I think that one needs time, but generally it is better for me, and yes, maybe in very near future I'd be able to embrace it all. Right now I would still change some things, not because they're wrong, but because I am not strong enough to accept them. :-\\
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Hm... I have to admit that I would have some scenes in completely different way. Even recently I manage to find a sort of peace in myself, the first weeks of BBM stroke and sad scenes were too much to tolerate. :i
Anyway, I think that one needs time, but generally it is better for me, and yes, maybe in very near future I'd be able to embrace it all. Right now I would still change some things, not because they're wrong, but because I am not strong enough to accept them. :-\\
Think of it this way: if they didn't do what they did, perhaps you would have reacted less to the story/movie.
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Think of it this way: if they didn't do what they did, perhaps you would have reacted less to the story/movie.
Sure tpe! ^f^
I am deeply aware of it! So I said - it is not the SS or the movie, it is my personal weakness which finds difficult to accept so sad ending! :(
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Sure tpe! ^f^
I am deeply aware of it! So I said - it is not the SS or the movie, it is my personal weakness which finds difficult to accept so sad ending! :(
But this personal weakness is also partly responsible for why the movie haunts you. It is both a cause and an effect. And I think that the author and the director wanted it this way. The ending provokes us...
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But this personal weakness is also partly responsible for why the movie haunts you. It is both a cause and an effect. And I think that the author and the director wanted it this way. The ending provokes us...
You're so right here! The sad ending was needed to make my weakness respond to it. Both are necessary for PBS. And PBS is an immense obsession, happiness and sorrow, yearning and gaining and all in between.
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It's been awhile since I've been able to be here, but what a great discussion!
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It's been awhile since I've been able to be here, but what a great discussion!
Atalley ^f^, nice to have you here again! :^^)
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You're so right here! The sad ending was needed to make my weakness respond to it. Both are necessary for PBS. And PBS is an immense obsession, happiness and sorrow, yearning and gaining and all in between.
Yes! That is right, it was formed that way to snatch us, to move us deep down inside. It didn't affect others in the same way because perhaps their emotional level wasn't as 'open' or 'ready' to be hit so hard with such powerful emotions. We've spoken about that 'cord' or something that gets moved slightly over the life, but I've said that BBM rocked it, and bounced it around causing so much that I didn't realize. The yearning, happiness, sorrow, and obsession (which can be seen if one looks at my computer), all stem from something that none of us too into account before, and BBM, and all the emotion with it brought it, and changed us somehow.
Wow, now I need to immerse myself in BBM again.
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You're so right here! The sad ending was needed to make my weakness respond to it. Both are necessary for PBS. And PBS is an immense obsession, happiness and sorrow, yearning and gaining and all in between.
Yes! That is right, it was formed that way to snatch us, to move us deep down inside. It didn't affect others in the same way because perhaps their emotional level wasn't as 'open' or 'ready' to be hit so hard with such powerful emotions. We've spoken about that 'cord' or something that gets moved slightly over the life, but I've said that BBM rocked it, and bounced it around causing so much that I didn't realize. The yearning, happiness, sorrow, and obsession (which can be seen if one looks at my computer), all stem from something that none of us too into account before, and BBM, and all the emotion with it brought it, and changed us somehow.
Wow, now I need to immerse myself in BBM again.
An gentler ending would have sounded weak, IMO, after the pain of the Last Confrontation and the catastrophe of Jack's death. If the sadness in the end was too strong, it was at least successful in generating strong reactions from us all.
It's been awhile since I've been able to be here, but what a great discussion!
Feel free to join us, atalley. :)
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An gentler ending would have sounded weak, IMO, after the pain of the Last Confrontation and the catastrophe of Jack's death. If the sadness in the end was too strong, it was at least successful in generating strong reactions from us all.
One close person of mine hated happy endings in the movies because she thought that it's not a real life, that it's made that way only to make audience happy. But I am the opposite. I think that there's enough sorrow in the real life, so we should have happy endings in the movies.
But, the truth is that no happy ending could touch us and shattered our hearts as this profound sadness of BBM end!
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One close person of mine hated happy endings in the movies because she thought that it's not a real life, that it's made that way only to make audience happy. But I am the opposite. I think that there's enough sorrow in the real life, so we should have happy endings in the movies.
But, the truth is that no happy ending could touch us and shattered our hearts as this profound sadness of BBM end!
This is the other extreme, of course. Happy endings can be just as fine, but it has to be managed differently, and more carefully, IMO. It can also affect us deeply, if done the right way. :)
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This is the other extreme, of course. Happy endings can be just as fine, but it has to be managed differently, and more carefully, IMO. It can also affect us deeply, if done the right way. :)
Hm.. sometimes I think that she just didn't want to admit how sensitive she was... :s)
I agree that happy ending should be managed differently and still.... I just loooooove happy endings! Ennis and Jack are happy together in my mind and soul! Forever.
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Hm.. sometimes I think that she just didn't want to admit how sensitive she was... :s)
I agree that happy ending should be managed differently and still.... I just loooooove happy endings! Ennis and Jack are happy together in my mind and soul! Forever.
It would have been difficult to show a happy ending after Jack's death. But if we remember the wonderful times they shared, I think it goes a long way to soften the sad ending. :)
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It would have been difficult to show a happy ending after Jack's death. But if we remember the wonderful times they shared, I think it goes a long way to soften the sad ending. :)
I wasn't exactly thinking that Jack died... but it's only my imagination... ::)
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I wasn't exactly thinking that Jack died... but it's only my imagination... ::)
:) Yes, He's was alive and Ennis was just having a bad dream! <^(
It would have been difficult to show a happy ending after Jack's death. But if we remember the wonderful times they shared, I think it goes a long way to soften the sad ending. :)
Some flashbacks of them together would of made it more dramatic I think :\'(
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:) Yes, He's was alive and Ennis was just having a bad dream! <^(
How much I would have loved it if it were all a bad dream! and Ennis awoke and came to the realization that Jack was his everything, and they got their ranch, lived together, and admitted there feelings... but that's how I would have loved it but like Tpe had said, if it were a happier ending, we wouldn't have been affected... We wouldn't have thought so deeply on it all, but it's still rather hard to accept it.
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How much I would have loved it if it were all a bad dream! and Ennis awoke and came to the realization that Jack was his everything, and they got their ranch, lived together, and admitted there feelings... but that's how I would have loved it but like Tpe had said, if it were a happier ending, we wouldn't have been affected... We wouldn't have thought so deeply on it all, but it's still rather hard to accept it.
But, dear LV - we have the right to dream and to erase the unpleasant scenes and sadness. ^-^
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I watched the last 30 seconds of the movie again. :\'(
I love the first 30 minutes then I just turn it off :( Sometimes I wish I was in the movie :P so that I could DO SOMETHING TO HELP! :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
Whew... I remember hating myself for watching it the first time... I was going crazy! *^)
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I watched the last 30 seconds of the movie again. :\'(
I love the first 30 minutes then I just turn it off :( Sometimes I wish I was in the movie :P so that I could DO SOMETHING TO HELP! :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
Whew... I remember hating myself for watching it the first time... I was going crazy! *^)
Yes,that's what I have felt several times too,BM¡Specially one of the scenes I dislike the most;when Jack drives an awful quantity of miles to be with Ennis after the divorce.I always feel like "entering into the screen" and tell Ennis;-"Don't be stupid,old boy¡ Look what he has done to be with you;give him the opportunity,even if you must be with your daughters ¡.It's better to share his company with them than not having this company at all,can't you see it?If you are wishing it too,! f@#$ng paranoiac ¡.
But,I can't do this,and,what's worse,as my Alma says,"from this very moment onwards,Jack realises he's never going to live with his love,because Ennis main problem is not being married,nor his duties about his daughters;it's main problem is himself.That's why Jack cries and went to Mexico;to try to forget the emotional and physical dependency he has of Ennis...".And,only for one time,I agree with her; how sad ¡. :\'(
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Yes,that's what I have felt several times too,BM¡Specially one of the scenes I dislike the most;when Jack drives an awful quantity of miles to be with Ennis after the divorce.I always feel like "entering into the screen" and tell Ennis;-"Don't be stupid,old boy¡ Look what he has done to be with you;give him the opportunity,even if you must be with your daughters ¡.It's better to share his company with them than not having this company at all,can't you see it?If you are wishing it too,! f@#$ng paranoiac ¡.
But,I can't do this,and,what's worse,as my Alma says,"from this very moment onwards,Jack realises he's never going to live with his love,because Ennis main problem is not being married,nor his duties about his daughters;it's main problem is himself.That's why Jack cries and went to Mexico;to try to forget the emotional and physical dependency he has of Ennis...".And,only for one time,I agree with her; how sad ¡. :\'(
Yes, that's exactly what I wish I could of told Ennis! :\'(
I felt so bad for Jack... Ennis really should of introduced him to his daughters...
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Yes, that's exactly what I wish I could of told Ennis! :\'(
I felt so bad for Jack... Ennis really should of introduced him to his daughters...
Well, he did introduced him to Jr and Jenny, but that was all. After that he let him go broken heart... :\'(
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Well, he did introduced him to Jr and Jenny, but that was all. After that he let him go broken heart... :\'(
Oh yes I forgot about that part! :P
But he should of let him stay!!! :\'(
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Oh yes I forgot about that part! :P
But he should of let him stay!!! :\'(
Yes, I believe that it is one of the most unpleasant scenes in the movie for we saw the growing paranoia in Ennis and completely devastated Jack who just figured out in the most cruel way that Ennis's fears are ruling over his love. Really unpleasant and sad!
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How much I would have loved it if it were all a bad dream! and Ennis awoke and came to the realization that Jack was his everything, and they got their ranch, lived together, and admitted there feelings... but that's how I would have loved it but like Tpe had said, if it were a happier ending, we wouldn't have been affected... We wouldn't have thought so deeply on it all, but it's still rather hard to accept it.
Yes, to have pictured it as a bad dream would have been too contrived, and less memorable, IMO. ;)
Am I too much a sucker for tragedy? I do admit that I feel tragedy has a deeper effect on us -- probably because such circumstances mirror the hard truths about life that we all come up against one time or another.
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Yes, to have pictured it as a bad dream would have been too contrived, and less memorable, IMO. ;)
Am I too much a sucker for tragedy? I do admit that I feel tragedy has a deeper effect on us -- probably because such circumstances mirror the hard truths about life that we all come up against one time or another.
This is the truth, but still... I just like to imagine them together in my heart and that makes me almost happy! I live like Ennis - in
some open space to be able to bear the pain... :(
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This is the truth, but still... I just like to imagine them together in my heart and that makes me almost happy! I live like Ennis - in
some open space to be able to bear the pain... :(
What I can say is that in spite of the tragedy, they were in truth happy to have found each other. Even though the happiness weas not perfect, they were indeed happy.
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What I can say is that in spite of the tragedy, they were in truth happy to have found each other. Even though the happiness weas not perfect, they were indeed happy.
Yes. And the greater the happiness was, the sadder is the lost of it. :\'(
The old (Jewish?) proverb says - the worst thing is to have and then not to have. (I translated it so stupidly, but I think you'll understand) :(
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Yes. And the greater the happiness was, the sadder is the lost of it. :\'(
The old (Jewish?) proverb says - the worst thing is to have and then not to have. (I translated it so stupidly, but I think you'll understand) :(
They certainly go nad in hand. But the greater risk does not deter us in our search for greater happiness...
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They certainly go nad in hand. But the greater risk does not deter us in our search for greater happiness...
That is true. Had Jack known for sure, I think that he would've taken the risk. :(
.. in fact then it wouldn't be a risk, I mean if he had known for sure...
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That is true. Had Jack known for sure, I think that he would've taken the risk. :(
.. in fact then it wouldn't be a risk, I mean if he had known for sure...
Hmmm. To be sure, Jack always took risks -- some of them were calculated, but others were quite reckless. This recklessness is sometimes very painful to watch, especially because we aslo internally fear for him.
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Hmmm. To be sure, Jack always took risks -- some of them were calculated, but others were quite reckless. This recklessness is sometimes very painful to watch, especially because we aslo internally fear for him.
hmm agreed... :-\\
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Hmmm. To be sure, Jack always took risks -- some of them were calculated, but others were quite reckless. This recklessness is sometimes very painful to watch, especially because we aslo internally fear for him.
This is so true. He took the risky risks which really spelled out his fate... :( When I last watched BBM I was getting irritated and sort of saying like "NO DON'T GO WITH HIM!" as in talking about going with that Randall fella. If he hadn't done that, perhaps it wouldn't have taken on the direction that it did.
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This is so true. He took the risky risks which really spelled out his fate... :( When I last watched BBM I was getting irritated and sort of saying like "NO DON'T GO WITH HIM!" as in talking about going with that Randall fella. If he hadn't done that, perhaps it wouldn't have taken on the direction that it did.
Yes,maybe if he hadn't gone with Randall,the direction he had taken would have been different.But,as a matter of fact,this risky option came from another option that was very meditated in his life; the possibility,a hundred times broken,of living with Ennis.He didn't act in a much riskier way until there was no horizon for both of us together...
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This is so true. He took the risky risks which really spelled out his fate... :( When I last watched BBM I was getting irritated and sort of saying like "NO DON'T GO WITH HIM!" as in talking about going with that Randall fella. If he hadn't done that, perhaps it wouldn't have taken on the direction that it did.
Yes,maybe if he hadn't gone with Randall,the direction he had taken would have been different.But,as a matter of fact,this risky option came from another option that was very meditated in his life; the possibility,a hundred times broken,of living with Ennis.He didn't act in a much riskier way until there was no horizon for both of us together...
LV, I had the same urge and I felt the same! Especially cos I didn't like the idea of Jack having an affair with that Randall character which finally led to the most ultimate tragedy. :\'(
On the other hand, I never resented anything to Jack. He did it in his most despair and lonely times of realization that sweet life with Ennis is as distant as it has always been. My poor Jack! :\'(
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Yes. And the greater the happiness was, the sadder is the lost of it. :\'(
The old (Jewish?) proverb says - the worst thing is to have and then not to have. (I translated it so stupidly, but I think you'll understand) :(
he should never have let Jack go, in the state he was in he could have died right then and there. He should have made him stay. wait until he had to take his daughters back home.
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he should never have let Jack go, in the state he was in he could have died right then and there. He should have made him stay. wait until he had to take his daughters back home.
Or even go with three of them out to eat and have fun. But the fear paralyzed all his reasoning and a common sense - cos none wold let a person who was driving for 14 hours, go away without having a rest.
In the scene is obvious how Jack's hope sinks - from the moment he got out of the truck and warm hug, through introducing with the girls, to facing the stiffed Ennis's face and realization that his hopes were in wane... dear Jack! :\'(
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hmm agreed... :-\\
This is so true. He took the risky risks which really spelled out his fate... :( When I last watched BBM I was getting irritated and sort of saying like "NO DON'T GO WITH HIM!" as in talking about going with that Randall fella. If he hadn't done that, perhaps it wouldn't have taken on the direction that it did.
Yes,maybe if he hadn't gone with Randall,the direction he had taken would have been different.But,as a matter of fact,this risky option came from another option that was very meditated in his life; the possibility,a hundred times broken,of living with Ennis.He didn't act in a much riskier way until there was no horizon for both of us together...
I would say that a lot of the unpleasant feelings engendered by some of the scenes is that it goes against the grain of how we perceive their "true" characters. In the case of Randall, it doesn't help that we get to know very littel about him, and so we are not especially sympathetic to him.
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he should never have let Jack go, in the state he was in he could have died right then and there. He should have made him stay. wait until he had to take his daughters back home.
Or even go with three of them out to eat and have fun. But the fear paralyzed all his reasoning and a common sense - cos none wold let a person who was driving for 14 hours, go away without having a rest.
In the scene is obvious how Jack's hope sinks - from the moment he got out of the truck and warm hug, through introducing with the girls, to facing the stiffed Ennis's face and realization that his hopes were in wane... dear Jack! :\'(
He must have thought that the introduction to the girls was a good sign. It onlu serves to increase the inevitable disappointment.
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he should never have let Jack go, in the state he was in he could have died right then and there. He should have made him stay. wait until he had to take his daughters back home.
Yes! That would have made things so nice... I really hate how he just tells him basically to go... I mean, sure his girls are there, but he will be able to visit with them! He gets them for the weekend, and doesn't Jack usually stay for a week anyway? That would have been five days they would have had together!
He must have thought that the introduction to the girls was a good sign. It onlu serves to increase the inevitable disappointment.
Oh gosh, I didn't notice this! That Jack thought maybe since he was being introduced to Ennis' daughters that it meant Ennis was being more open about it... :\'( Oh, poor Jack! and with him driving back all by himself... That was so heartbreaking.
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Yes! That would have made things so nice... I really hate how he just tells him basically to go... I mean, sure his girls are there, but he will be able to visit with them! He gets them for the weekend, and doesn't Jack usually stay for a week anyway? That would have been five days they would have had together!
Yes,this is one of the solutions they might have found...But this Ennis reaction makes me think that it was only the "good" excuse for not facing their situation;for him,it was much easier letting Jack's visits only when they were pre-established,when there was not the "surprise" factor,let's say.It seemed as if he didn't feel like having Jack by his side,as a proof of his fears and his deep paranoia,that wins in moments like that.
But I must say in Ennis defense,that even behaving in such an stupid way,he murmures a shy "Jack..." just when this one realises his lover isn't willing to be with him and he is going to his car again;it seems as if he wants somehow to arrange the situation,as realising he had been unfair with Jack.I have repeated a lot of times that I dislike this scene because it reflexes the lack of real communication that there was between the two of them; as so many other things,the BBM good old times,when they had a lot of mutual confidence and communication as a friends,have gone...
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Oh gosh, I didn't notice this! That Jack thought maybe since he was being introduced to Ennis' daughters that it meant Ennis was being more open about it... :\'( Oh, poor Jack! and with him driving back all by himself... That was so heartbreaking.
I believe that Jack did the introducing to the girls like a task he had to do before the real fun with Ennis. His expression and body language showed how impatient he was and how he wants to make a plans with Ennis for their future life. My idea is that he even didn't give it a thought, but that's MHO! Unfortunately "like the most of Jack's wishes" this one was unfulfilled too! My Jack! :(
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Oh gosh, I didn't notice this! That Jack thought maybe since he was being introduced to Ennis' daughters that it meant Ennis was being more open about it... :\'( Oh, poor Jack! and with him driving back all by himself... That was so heartbreaking.
Exactly. Especially since Ennis had just divorced, perhaps Jack thought that it was the right time to get to know the girls anyway, if he and Ennis were to unite...
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I believe that Jack did the introducing to the girls like a task he had to do before the real fun with Ennis. His expression and body language showed how impatient he was and how he wants to make a plans with Ennis for their future life. My idea is that he even didn't give it a thought, but that's MHO! Unfortunately "like the most of Jack's wishes" this one was unfulfilled too! My Jack! :(
Interesting. One could certainly interpret his look as just being too excited to think too much about the introduction. Perhaps Ennis felt he was forced to introduce Jack, since Jack's arrival had caught him off guard?
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Interesting. One could certainly interpret his look as just being too excited to think too much about the introduction. Perhaps Ennis felt he was forced to introduce Jack, since Jack's arrival had caught him off guard?
When Jack arrived he didn't know that girls are in the truck and he tried to kiss Ennis who loosen himself and having no other way to tell him about the girls and to prevent him from further intimacy, he just said: Come here, invited him to come near the truck and introduced him to the girls. So, for Ennis it was a way to point out that the situation is not suitable for something more than a quiet talk.
Jack, on the other side was ready to leave his wife and his son for Ennis without any remorse, so I don't think that he cared so much for having any special relationship with Ennis's daughters... After being introduced to them, jack immediately turned around and started to talk about the divorce with so touching expectation which was soon failed....
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Yes, I think that was an important part of it. Jack would have kissed Ennis had Ennis not broken away from him to introduce the girls.
Ennis is so hard to read at that moment -- he genuinely looks happy and pleasantly surprised to see Jack, and yet, he must have been learly uncomfortable with his presence there with the girls. I think this undercurrent of unease is what makes us react with some complexity (and dislike) for this scene, because we somehow anticipate what waa about to happen.
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Yes, I think that was an important part of it. Jack would have kissed Ennis had Ennis not broken away from him to introduce the girls.
Ennis is so hard to read at that moment -- he genuinely looks happy and pleasantly surprised to see Jack, and yet, he must have been learly uncomfortable with his presence there with the girls. I think this undercurrent of unease is what makes us react with some complexity (and dislike) for this scene, because we somehow anticipate what waa about to happen.
Sorry, my previous post was full of mistakes. I usually check it, but this time I obviously didn't. It is not so clear and full of mistakes. But I think that you got my point.
Well, surely Ennis was very happy to see Jack and that split moment when he laid his eyes on him he didn't think of anything else, but that Jack is near him. Maybe had he thought clear, maybe he would've even avoided the hug! Who knows? But when he saw him he just forgot everything. It didn't take too much for him to realize that Jack as loving as he was would become a threat to his image of "normal". That is just what I was talking in the other thread - Jack's open and loving behavior made him even more paranoid and then he just closed himself - and showed Jack that his girls were present! But Jack still doesn't stop - he is willing to stay with Ennis coz he divorced.... and from then thinks rapidly go down! :(
I am sure that Ennis didn't feel any better than Jack after that awful scene, but Jack was hurt, and Ennis was the one who hurt Jack and himself.
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Yes: Ennis's gut reaction was one of joy. Such moments are revealing in that they show us the true nature of Ennis, without the oppressive facade he normally raised up for people to see.
Thwe contrast between his initial reaction and his gradual withdrawal into caution is what makes his actions so unappealing in this scene. It is perhaps close to cowardice, although I think that THAT is too strong a word.
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Yes: Ennis's gut reaction was one of joy. Such moments are revealing in that they show us the true nature of Ennis, without the oppressive facade he normally raised up for people to see.
Thwe contrast between his initial reaction and his gradual withdrawal into caution is what makes his actions so unappealing in this scene. It is perhaps close to cowardice, although I think that THAT is too strong a word.
Maybe not 100% accurate, better said, but there was some cowardice in his behavior. He was afraid practically all his life - that sure is cowardice, right?
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Maybe not 100% accurate, better said, but there was some cowardice in his behavior. He was afraid practically all his life - that sure is cowardice, right?
Loreen - I can understand why you would view Ennis' actions as cowardice. When viewing the movie in 2009, it's hard to remember what America was like in 1975 when Ennis got divorced.
According to the BBM short story, Ennis was 19 years of age in 1963, which means he was born in 1944. In America in the 1940s through the 1960s homosexuality was considered to be a mental disorder. It was considered a perversion and a sin against God. It wasn't until 1973 that the American Psychiatric Association de-listed homosexuality as a mental disorder in their diagnostic nomenclature.
Not only was homosexuality considered a perversion, but homosexuals were often beaten and even killed for being gay. Homosexuals moved away from rural areas and went to live in large cities for some measure of safety. In large cities, gays were also beaten and ridiculed and received no protection under the law. It wasn't until the 1969 Stonewall riots in New York City when gays began to protest in large numbers and fight for their rights that they began to be protected under the law. The Gay Rights movement mirrored the Civil Rights movements in the 1960s and the Feminists movement of the 1970s.
Today in 2009 it is still dangerous to be openly 'out' in rural America. Hollywood is making it hip to be gay, but that acceptance is still slow to reach some places.
Ennis lived in a small, rural town. There were no openly 'out' men around him. There was no one he could talk to about his feelings. He was alone and isolated. Like most everyone, Ennis did the best that he could in the time and place he lived with the knowledge that he had. If he had known better, he would have done better.
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Loreen - I can understand why you would view Ennis' actions as cowardice. When viewing the movie in 2009, it's hard to remember what America was like in 1975 when Ennis got divorced.
According to the BBM short story, Ennis was 19 years of age in 1963, which means he was born in 1944. In America in the 1940s through the 1960s homosexuality was considered to be a mental disorder. It was considered a perversion and a sin against God. It wasn't until 1973 that the American Psychiatric Association de-listed homosexuality as a mental disorder in their diagnostic nomenclature.
Not only was homosexuality considered a perversion, but homosexuals were often beaten and even killed for being gay. Homosexuals moved away from rural areas and went to live in large cities for some measure of safety. In large cities, gays were also beaten and ridiculed and received no protection under the law. It wasn't until the 1969 Stonewall riots in New York City when gays began to protest in large numbers and fight for their rights that they began to be protected under the law. The Gay Rights movement mirrored the Civil Rights movements in the 1960s and the Feminists movement of the 1970s.
Today in 2009 it is still dangerous to be openly 'out' in rural America. Hollywood is making it hip to be gay, but that acceptance is still slow to reach some places.
Ennis lived in a small, rural town. There were no openly 'out' men around him. There was no one he could talk to about his feelings. He was alone and isolated. Like most everyone, Ennis did the best that he could in the time and place he lived with the knowledge that he had. If he had known better, he would have done better.
I quote the last sentence.
I always seem to be too harsh on Ennis... maybe I really am. And maybe I am just so sorry to see how his fear ruled over him, preventing him to do only one little step more and accomplish the sweet life with Jack - the thing that would make both of them the most happy people in the world... I don't know. I will always be sorry for this .... :(
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Maybe not 100% accurate, better said, but there was some cowardice in his behavior. He was afraid practically all his life - that sure is cowardice, right?
Well, it was a failure of nerve, to say the least... :(
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Loreen - I can understand why you would view Ennis' actions as cowardice. When viewing the movie in 2009, it's hard to remember what America was like in 1975 when Ennis got divorced.
According to the BBM short story, Ennis was 19 years of age in 1963, which means he was born in 1944. In America in the 1940s through the 1960s homosexuality was considered to be a mental disorder. It was considered a perversion and a sin against God. It wasn't until 1973 that the American Psychiatric Association de-listed homosexuality as a mental disorder in their diagnostic nomenclature.
Not only was homosexuality considered a perversion, but homosexuals were often beaten and even killed for being gay. Homosexuals moved away from rural areas and went to live in large cities for some measure of safety. In large cities, gays were also beaten and ridiculed and received no protection under the law. It wasn't until the 1969 Stonewall riots in New York City when gays began to protest in large numbers and fight for their rights that they began to be protected under the law. The Gay Rights movement mirrored the Civil Rights movements in the 1960s and the Feminists movement of the 1970s.
Today in 2009 it is still dangerous to be openly 'out' in rural America. Hollywood is making it hip to be gay, but that acceptance is still slow to reach some places.
Ennis lived in a small, rural town. There were no openly 'out' men around him. There was no one he could talk to about his feelings. He was alone and isolated. Like most everyone, Ennis did the best that he could in the time and place he lived with the knowledge that he had. If he had known better, he would have done better.
True, but I wonder why Ennis never considered moving away to another place, as thousands of gay men did and continue to do since the 1950s. To a certain extent, it was in his power to change certain things, but he didn't. Not that this was unforgivable. It is very understandable, given his set ways and his desire to be close to his children. Nonetheless, it is still what I would call a failure of nerve.
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Well, it was a failure of nerve, to say the least... :(
I is too scary to know how only one horrible experience can ruin whole life and the best chances for happiness... :(
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True, but I wonder why Ennis never considered moving away to another place, as thousands of gay men did and continue to do since the 1950s. To a certain extent, it was in his power to change certain things, but he didn't. Not that this was unforgivable. It is very understandable, given his set ways and his desire to be close to his children. Nonetheless, it is still what I would call a failure of nerve.
... combine with the genetic stubbornness... ;D
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... combine with the genetic stubbornness... ;D
Well, I would personally think that genetics could be a part of it. ;) But this is a bit tangential to the main topic.
Yes, I know you were just kidding. ;)
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True, but I wonder why Ennis never considered moving away to another place, as thousands of gay men did and continue to do since the 1950s. To a certain extent, it was in his power to change certain things, but he didn't. Not that this was unforgivable. It is very understandable, given his set ways and his desire to be close to his children. Nonetheless, it is still what I would call a failure of nerve.
TPE - if Ennis didn't have a 'failure of nerve' would we still be discussing the BBM SS and the movie 3 years after it's release?
If Ennis and Jack had met, had some relationship struggles and then lived the 'sweet life' that Jack spoke of, then everyone who read the short story or saw the movie would have said, "AWWWWW, that's so sweet," and moved on with their life. BBM would have been just another love story movie.
The enduring power of 'Romeo and Juliet' is the fact that Romeo and Juliet are meant to be together and they never are. Such is the enduring power of BBM. Ennis and Jack are meant to be together and everytime I see the movie some part of my crazy *^) mind thinks the ending will be different!
Some part of my mind expects:
When Ennis and Jack come down from Brokeback that Ennis will run after Jack's truck, waving his arms and say to Jack, "I just can't leave you, Bud."
When Ennis is marrying Alma that Ennis will hold up his hand and say, "I'm sorry but I just can't marry you Alma. I'm in love with someone else."
When Ennis and Jack meet up after 4 years that Ennis will say, "I"m sorry I let you get away Jack, but I'm not going to let you go again."
When Jack comes to visit Ennis after his divorce that Ennis will say to Jack, "Finally, we can be together."
When Ennis breaks down after his fight with Jack that Ennis will say, "I just can't take this anymore, Jack. I can't live without you anymore."
But, every time I watch the movie, it remains the same...Ennis and Jack are meant to be together and Ennis can't do it.
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TPE - if Ennis didn't have a 'failure of nerve' would we still be discussing the BBM SS and the movie 3 years after it's release?
If Ennis and Jack had met, had some relationship struggles and then lived the 'sweet life' that Jack spoke of, then everyone who read the short story or saw the movie would have said, "AWWWWW, that's so sweet," and moved on with their life. BBM would have been just another love story movie.
The enduring power of 'Romeo and Juliet' is the fact that Romeo and Juliet are meant to be together and they never are. Such is the enduring power of BBM. Ennis and Jack are meant to be together and everytime I see the movie some part of my crazy *^) mind thinks the ending will be different!
Some part of my mind expects:
When Ennis and Jack come down from Brokeback that Ennis will run after Jack's truck, waving his arms and say to Jack, "I just can't leave you, Bud."
When Ennis is marrying Alma that Ennis will hold up his hand and say, "I'm sorry but I just can't marry you Alma. I'm in love with someone else."
When Ennis and Jack meet up after 4 years that Ennis will say, "I"m sorry I let you get away Jack, but I'm not going to let you go again."
When Jack comes to visit Ennis after his divorce that Ennis will say to Jack, "Finally, we can be together."
When Ennis breaks down after his fight with Jack that Ennis will say, "I just can't take this anymore, Jack. I can't live without you anymore."
But, every time I watch the movie, it remains the same...Ennis and Jack are meant to be together and Ennis can't do it.
:clap: :clap: :clap: Yup! Me too!
Great post! :)
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TPE - if Ennis didn't have a 'failure of nerve' would we still be discussing the BBM SS and the movie 3 years after it's release?
If Ennis and Jack had met, had some relationship struggles and then lived the 'sweet life' that Jack spoke of, then everyone who read the short story or saw the movie would have said, "AWWWWW, that's so sweet," and moved on with their life. BBM would have been just another love story movie.
The enduring power of 'Romeo and Juliet' is the fact that Romeo and Juliet are meant to be together and they never are. Such is the enduring power of BBM. Ennis and Jack are meant to be together and everytime I see the movie some part of my crazy *^) mind thinks the ending will be different!
Some part of my mind expects:
When Ennis and Jack come down from Brokeback that Ennis will run after Jack's truck, waving his arms and say to Jack, "I just can't leave you, Bud."
When Ennis is marrying Alma that Ennis will hold up his hand and say, "I'm sorry but I just can't marry you Alma. I'm in love with someone else."
When Ennis and Jack meet up after 4 years that Ennis will say, "I"m sorry I let you get away Jack, but I'm not going to let you go again."
When Jack comes to visit Ennis after his divorce that Ennis will say to Jack, "Finally, we can be together."
When Ennis breaks down after his fight with Jack that Ennis will say, "I just can't take this anymore, Jack. I can't live without you anymore."
But, every time I watch the movie, it remains the same...Ennis and Jack are meant to be together and Ennis can't do it.
As you are probably aware of by now, I am one of the poeple here who prefers tragedy to resolution. ;)
But acceptance of the tragic flaw of a great character does not mean that the motivations that drive the protagonist must always be explainable. Hence, it is right and even fruitful to question or critique the nature behind Ennis's inability to make changes that would have perhaps bettered his life, because such questions give us a better understanding of the tragic flaw so central to his character and the story.
Why didn't he just consider moving away, when it was certainly in his power to do so? Was his desire to be near his daughters the overriding reason, or was there something deeper?
I think all of us here would say that there was something deeper -- what I can the "failure of nerve." It is at the center of the tragic flaw in Ennis's character, and not to acknowlege if would be to misunderstand why BBM is such a great tragedy in the first place.
It is a tragedy first and foremost because it was to a certain extent in their power to right things for both of them. And as in the case of Romeo and Juliet, who were unable to see past an end to the family feud, Ennis's inability to see past his own fears is at the heart of his own undoing. But it is because of percisely this that he becomes a great tragic figure.
Sorry for the extended emphasis in the last part of the above reply! ;)
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As you are probably aware of by now, I am one of the poeple here who prefers tragedy to resolution. ;)
But acceptance of the tragic flaw of a great character does not mean that the motivations that drive the protagonist must always be explainable. Hence, it is right and even fruitful to question or critique the nature behind Ennis's inability to make changes that would have perhaps bettered his life, because such questions give us a better understanding of the tragic flaw so central to his character and the story.
Why didn't he just consider moving away, when it was certainly in his power to do so? Was his desire to be near his daughters the overriding reason, or was there something deeper?
I think all of us here would say that there was something deeper -- what I can the "failure of nerve." It is at the center of the tragic flaw in Ennis's character, and not to acknowlege if would be to misunderstand why BBM is such a great tragedy in the first place.
It is a tragedy first and foremost because it was to a certain extent in their power to right things for both of them. And as in the case of Romeo and Juliet, who were unable to see past an end to the family feud, Ennis's inability to see past his own fears is at the heart of his own undoing. But it is because of percisely this that he becomes a great tragic figure.
Sorry for the extended emphasis in the last part of the above reply! ;)
This discussion is good and welcome. I enjoy every new insight of the story and others' POV, in fact most of the time I am on this side of the forum.
But sometimes I also want to make things simple - Ennis in my mind just took one of so many chances that Jack offered to him and they lived happily ever after. Coz I hate sad endings - H A T E!
And now again I have to go round and admit that had there been no so tragic end in this most beautiful love story, it would've never been so attractive.... Ennis's refusal is almost annoying for the viewer, make me/us want to shake his shoulder and tell him: Wake up! This is your life passing away, and you still sleep. Take your chances! Go for it!
But Ennis sleeps right up to the very end, leaving us so dissapointed and sad, but also make us want for more watching, talking, crying.... It is a vicious circle we're in!
Hm... I even don't know what I wanted to say, but that's pretty much it! ???
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As you are probably aware of by now, I am one of the poeple here who prefers tragedy to resolution. ;)
But acceptance of the tragic flaw of a great character does not mean that the motivations that drive the protagonist must always be explainable. Hence, it is right and even fruitful to question or critique the nature behind Ennis's inability to make changes that would have perhaps bettered his life, because such questions give us a better understanding of the tragic flaw so central to his character and the story.
Why didn't he just consider moving away, when it was certainly in his power to do so? Was his desire to be near his daughters the overriding reason, or was there something deeper?
I think all of us here would say that there was something deeper -- what I can the "failure of nerve." It is at the center of the tragic flaw in Ennis's character, and not to acknowlege if would be to misunderstand why BBM is such a great tragedy in the first place.
It is a tragedy first and foremost because it was to a certain extent in their power to right things for both of them. And as in the case of Romeo and Juliet, who were unable to see past an end to the family feud, Ennis's inability to see past his own fears is at the heart of his own undoing. But it is because of percisely this that he becomes a great tragic figure.
Sorry for the extended emphasis in the last part of the above reply! ;)
You are so right!
As you are probably aware of by now, I am one of the poeple here who prefers tragedy to resolution. ;)
Me, too!
Why didn't he just consider moving away, when it was certainly in his power to do so? Was his desire to be near his daughters the overriding reason, or was there something deeper?
One of the reasons I LOVE Ennis is his humanness! He is just like everyone else...sometimes and in some ways WE ALL are too afraid to admit what we really want and go for it. It is so sad that he wasted the time he could have been with Jack because of his fears.
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You are so right!
As you are probably aware of by now, I am one of the poeple here who prefers tragedy to resolution. ;)
Me, too!
Why didn't he just consider moving away, when it was certainly in his power to do so? Was his desire to be near his daughters the overriding reason, or was there something deeper?
One of the reasons I LOVE Ennis is his humanness! He is just like everyone else...sometimes and in some ways WE ALL are too afraid to admit what we really want and go for it. It is so sad that he wasted the time he could have been with Jack because of his fears.
Which is why I think we empathize with him -- and also why he disturbs and moves us so much all at the same time. The aspects about him that disturb and sometimes even anger us paradoxically brings him closer to our shared human experience. And yes, even the sadness...
That there are certain scenes in the movie we may dislike or even abhor shouldn't bother us or change how we view the movieas a whole. In fact, it should increase our appreciation of BBN as a work of art, and as a mirror in which all of us can see something that is within each of us.