Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: babytammy7 on Sep 05, 2007, 01:06 PM
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Hello dear Brokies!!!
Well, here I go again!!If you've talked about this before, please forgive me #) #)
I've been thinking about Jack, as always of course, and I wonder which is the meaning of this Jack`s statement: I´m not you...
I have my own ideas about that, but I would like to know yours 'cause probably I'm wrong.
So, I'm not you:Ennis, I need more sex, you know, more than just 2 f.....I'm more passionate than you and still young, so I want you so bad!!!
I'm not you: En, I need a life together and, above all, I need your love the whole time, every week, every day, every hour.I can't stand the loneliness no more. I'm not you, I need company, a family; not a family with a wife and children, but a family with you, you and me.
I'm not you: En, you don't know anything about your real sexuality, well, I mean, you don't accept it and you don't want to accept it. But I'm different; I know who I am, I know well what I want, I like boys, yeah, really, and I'm not ashamed of it. I said to you: I'm not a queer, but I was so young and I didn't want to lose you, so what about if I tell you I'm gay? What? I'm not afraid of people, I'm not afraid of killers, I'm not afraid of Earl and Rich's ghost; are you going to punch me? Come on, I'm not afraid of you!!!
I'm not you: En, you are so stoic, so conformist, so realistic.......but, at the same time, you are so sad, so bitter. I was a dreamer, I was a boy full of hope, I was happy, I used to smile all the whole time, and I really would like to be that Jack again; I need it En; I'm not you, I need dreams, crazy things, promises to carry on; I need words, I need to know that you love me.
I'm not you: En, you look so strong; nothing seems to be important for you, nothing seems to be hurting you (Ok, Jack didn't know how Ennis actually felt), but I'm not so strong; I'm more sensitive than you, I have deep feelings, I can't go on.... I'm devastated...
What do you think about friends? What was he trying to say?
Again, sorry for my english, and thank you so much for your answers!!! ^f^
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For me. "I'm not you" means that Jack couldn't keep things in, the way Ennis did. For me, it is Jack's final rejection of the spirit behind "If you can't fix it, you've got to stand it."
There are some things that you just can't keep inside. Ironically, even Ennis admitted as much at the close of the confrontation scene...
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I'm sure Jack is saying what he must have known for a long time; that he doesn't share Ennis's fears, inhibitions, ability to do without, stoicism, whatever, but he's also surely referring to his higher sex drive. While Ennis can put up with meeting him only a few times a year and lead a celnbate life the rest of the time, Jack can't and won't. It's exactly like the sequence where Ennis says they'll have to live on beans when they're lost their food and says he won't. Jack has wider horizons than Ennis, in physical space and otherwise, and he's never going to settle for beans.
*o) Is " not worth a bean" an American expression? In Eng. Li.t it goes back at least to Chaucer and maybe before; it means " not worth anything".
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I'm sure Jack is saying what he must have known for a long time; that he doesn't share Ennis's fears, inhibitions, ability to do without, stoicism, whatever, but he's also surely referring to his higher sex drive. While Ennis can put up with meeting him only a few times a year and lead a celnbate life the rest of the time, Jack can't and won't. It's exactly like the sequence where Ennis says they'll have to live on beans when they're lost their food and says he won't. Jack has wider horizons than Ennis, in physical space and otherwise, and he's never going to settle for beans.
Very well said, and I think it means exactly that.
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ww,
*o)
In American English, the expression is often worded as "not worth of hill of beans" or " it ain't worth beans", but I think they come from the same origin.
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I agree that Jack has a higher sex drive. He actually NEEDS sex more often that Ennis, but I think he is referring also to just a basic need to be WITH someone more often. I think it's his declaration that he needs Ennis so much, but, since Ennis will not commit to being with Jack more often or live with him, he, Jack, has to find this human contact somewhere else -- even in back sheds in Mexico. Sure, it's sex, but it's also another human being. Ennis "wrings it out" as he says in the ss; Jack needs the human contact that even a whore can provide.
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I agree that Jack has a higher sex drive. He actually NEEDS sex more often that Ennis, but I think he is referring also to just a basic need to be WITH someone more often. I think it's his declaration that he needs Ennis so much, but, since Ennis will not commit to being with Jack more often or live with him, he, Jack, has to find this human contact somewhere else -- even in back sheds in Mexico. Sure, it's sex, but it's also another human being. Ennis "wrings it out" as he says in the ss; Jack needs the human contact that even a whore can provide.
Jack did have a high sex drive and I agree he is comparing a warm body vs his hand as Ennis does, but it fits in with the rest of Ennis and Jack's basic personalities. Jack needs human touch, Ennis just needs Jack or thoughts of Jack as he "wrings it out". Jack had a wife, but she can't give him what he "hardly ever gets", Randall? probably comes close but no cigar, and LaShawn?.. well I won't even go there , but it was Ennis who Jack had the true passion for, he loved him and sex with the one you love is always more free and better. I guess Ennis was the perfect fit in this regard. so not only does Jack need more sex, he needs/wants it in a certain manner, high altitude, low altitude, whatever. Jack was not gonna be satisfied with just "wringing it out" , but I'm sure due to these long periods in between, when they did do it, I bet they gave each other more than they can handle. A sweet thought. ;) ;) :P
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I agree that Jack has a higher sex drive. He actually NEEDS sex more often that Ennis, but I think he is referring also to just a basic need to be WITH someone more often. I think it's his declaration that he needs Ennis so much, but, since Ennis will not commit to being with Jack more often or live with him, he, Jack, has to find this human contact somewhere else -- even in back sheds in Mexico. Sure, it's sex, but it's also another human being. Ennis "wrings it out" as he says in the ss; Jack needs the human contact that even a whore can provide.
I think the sex was part of this need to be with someone. It was at the center of Jack's dream, after all...
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For me,
Jack accused Ennis of not wanting a life with him, that Ennis was willing to accept the status quo. Jack believed that the couple of high attitude f@$ks was just fine with Ennis. I think Jack was was saying, "I'm not you". This arrangement is not OK with me.
Jack was sadly under the misunderstanding, that this is what Ennis wanted, but on a deeper level, this was not OK with Ennis, this was Ennis's burden. How could Jack know that how Ennis lived his life was all done to keep Jack in his life.
IMO.
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For me,definitively this "I´m not you,Ennis" includes a whole lot of circumstances,feelings,needs and longings that are seen in different way for both of them,or at least,it seems not to have the same level in each one of them.From,obviously,"My libido is not so in control as yours,so I can´t make it with a couple of ...",to "Nor I have all my life´s aspects so in control as you seem to have yours"; passing by "I just can´t have enough with seeing you a few times a year,I need your presence more often", or by "I need really living with you and I´m willing to let everything behind to get it, and you seem to need only what we get during all these years".
Not,really,Jack was not Ennis;he was fighting all his short life to get his dreams, while Ennis was suffering a lot-maybe more than Jack-because he must hide his deepest and most loving feelings and longings to build a strong man´s shield-before everybody,society,Jack and also himself-.Perhaps he needed and whished all this the same or even more than his lover,but he needed also,he MUST, not to show it.Such a pity. :\'(
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It also seems to me the underlying significance of this is that Jack is saying that he's not satisfied with such limited horizons as Ennis is - he hasn't stayed in the same place, gone on doing the same job - in the ss his role in LD's business develops over time - gone on thinking in the same way. He has wantred for a long time to change things - now it's becoming clear to him thathe can;t change things with Ennis - Ennis is the obstacle to his achieving his dreams.
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It also seems to me the underlying significance of this is that Jack is saying that he's not satisfied with such limited horizons as Ennis is - he hasn't stayed in the same place, gone on doing the same job - in the ss his role in LD's business develops over time - gone on thinking in the same way. He has wantred for a long time to change things - now it's becoming clear to him thathe can;t change things with Ennis - Ennis is the obstacle to his achieving his dreams.
I can relate to ww pov. My own pov: When Jack tells Ennis "I'm not you" Was it really all about sex, or how often they get to have sex? I personally doubt this. It about a dream deferred. Jack's dream. This reminds of the first line in one my favorite poems:
What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up like raisin in the sun?
Langston Hughes
This is almost a warning that a desire/a dream delayed is a a desire/a dream denied.
When Jack wishes he could quit Ennis, Ennis for that moment seems like an obstacles achieving his dream, but a life with Ennis was also the object of Jack's dream. This was Jack's dilemma. IMO.
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I can relate to ww pov. My own pov: When Jack tells Ennis "I'm not you" Was it really all about sex, or how often they get to have sex? I personally doubt this. It about a dream deferred. Jack's dream. This reminds of the first line in one my favorite poems:
What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up like raisin in the sun?
Langston Hughes
This is almost a warning that a desire/a dream delayed is a a desire/a dream denied.
When Jack wishes he could quit Ennis, Ennis for that moment seems like an obstacles achieving his dream, but a life with Ennis was also the object of Jack's dream. This was Jack's dilemma. IMO.
Oh very well said!!!! I agree with you. I think in Jack's statement there is nothing to do with sex, and as I said before that I'm not you means for me:I'm not you: En, I need a life together and, above all, I need your love the whole time, every week, every day, every hour. I can't stand the loneliness no more. I'm not you, I need company, a family; not a family with a wife and children, but a family with you, you and me. I need to believe in dreams andI need promises to carry on; I need words, I need to know that you love me.
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For me,definitively this "I´m not you,Ennis" includes a whole lot of circumstances,feelings,needs and longings that are seen in different way for both of them,or at least,it seems not to have the same level in each one of them.From,obviously,"My libido is not so in control as yours,so I can´t make it with a couple of ...",to "Nor I have all my life´s aspects so in control as you seem to have yours"; passing by "I just can´t have enough with seeing you a few times a year,I need your presence more often", or by "I need really living with you and I´m willing to let everything behind to get it, and you seem to need only what we get during all these years".
Not,really,Jack was not Ennis;he was fighting all his short life to get his dreams, while Ennis was suffering a lot-maybe more than Jack-because he must hide his deepest and most loving feelings and longings to build a strong man´s shield-before everybody,society,Jack and also himself-.Perhaps he needed and whished all this the same or even more than his lover,but he needed also,he MUST, not to show it.Such a pity. :\'(
Wel,it´s the second time I´ve quoted myself;I don´t know if this is something pathological... :i In it I said that Jack´s statement DOES have something to do with sex,but not only with it,not only with company,not only with life expectations,not only even with love;it´s the confirmation before Ennis and even himself that this "I m not you,Ennis" goes far beyond all these circumstances and feelings, and at the same time is a blend of all these and much more still:It´s his own life´s project, all his past,present and future life that he saw in this moment as completely different from Ennis´s.Hence his frustration,of course,although,I repite,Ennis possibly had this same life´s project,much more still than Jack,but he must have a double face,a kind of Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hide before his true feelings and the image he must give to society- and ,as I said also,often to Jack and most of the time to himself...-Poor Ennis¡I don´t know if all this makes sense;my English is too bad as to do psychological speeches... :8
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For me,
Jack accused Ennis of not wanting a life with him, that Ennis was willing to accept the status quo. Jack believed that the couple of high attitude f@$ks was just fine with Ennis. I think Jack was was saying, "I'm not you". This arrangement is not OK with me.
Jack was sadly under the misunderstanding, that this is what Ennis wanted, but on a deeper level, this was not OK with Ennis, this was Ennis's burden. How could Jack know that how Ennis lived his life was all done to keep Jack in his life.
IMO.
I do think that deep-down, this is what Jack was saying. He was saying that he couldn't go on living this way, thinking that it was all fine for the stoic Ennis.
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It also seems to me the underlying significance of this is that Jack is saying that he's not satisfied with such limited horizons as Ennis is - he hasn't stayed in the same place, gone on doing the same job - in the ss his role in LD's business develops over time - gone on thinking in the same way. He has wantred for a long time to change things - now it's becoming clear to him thathe can;t change things with Ennis - Ennis is the obstacle to his achieving his dreams.
I think this was part of what I said in my last post, also. That Ennis, by simply being "contented" with the status quo, didn't really relate to Jack's growing dissatisfaction.
It is interesting to see that this scene revealed a much more vulnerable Ennis than we were led to believe. It was simply a matter of appearances -- that Ennis was contented with the way things were...
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I can relate to ww pov. My own pov: When Jack tells Ennis "I'm not you" Was it really all about sex, or how often they get to have sex? I personally doubt this. It about a dream deferred. Jack's dream. This reminds of the first line in one my favorite poems:
What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up like raisin in the sun?
Langston Hughes
This is almost a warning that a desire/a dream delayed is a a desire/a dream denied.
When Jack wishes he could quit Ennis, Ennis for that moment seems like an obstacles achieving his dream, but a life with Ennis was also the object of Jack's dream. This was Jack's dilemma. IMO.
Yes, I had posted in some other thread this Langston Hughes's poem and how closely it mirrored the situation in BBM. It is also interesting to note that the Poet also lived though a life that was not open and seemingly limited or limiting. It reflects the situation of Jack in this very scene.
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Wel,it´s the second time I´ve quoted myself;I don´t know if this is something pathological... :i In it I said that Jack´s statement DOES have something to do with sex,but not only with it,not only with company,not only with life expectations,not only even with love;it´s the confirmation before Ennis and even himself that this "I m not you,Ennis" goes far beyond all these circumstances and feelings, and at the same time is a blend of all these and much more still:It´s his own life´s project, all his past,present and future life that he saw in this moment as completely different from Ennis´s.Hence his frustration,of course,although,I repite,Ennis possibly had this same life´s project,much more still than Jack,but he must have a double face,a kind of Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hide before his true feelings and the image he must give to society- and ,as I said also,often to Jack and most of the time to himself...-Poor Ennis¡I don´t know if all this makes sense;my English is too bad as to do psychological speeches... :8
I do think that the sex was a part of the picture. It was a way of saying to Ennis that they needed greater intimacy -- which a life together would have given both of them.
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I do think that the sex was a part of the picture. It was a way of saying to Ennis that they needed greater intimacy -- which a life together would have given both of them.
Of course,sex was a part of the complaining that was in Jack´s statement,being what he asked for a greater intimacy that only a sharing life would have carried.Sex would be more satisfactory in same way for both of them,because all the aspects of their life would be satisfactory then.As I said,what Jack asked was a project of life far beyond a momentary sexual or phisycal satisfaction, even far beyond the satisfaction to be with the one you love...He wanted a total communion in body,soul and mind with his Ennis that only a life in common could bring him.IMO.
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Jack said he couldn't survive on a few high altitude f*cks a year. He wanted sex and he wanted a life with someone. He wanted a life with Ennis but "You didn't want it Ennis, so all we got now is BBM!"
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The point is that to be sexually involved you have to be together - in some ways sex ( not just one-night stands!) is not just a reality, it's also the proof of something more absrtract, one's commitment to and love of someone else, wanting to spend all the time one can with them. If someone doesn't want to be in the same geographical location,or close, then sex is impossible without the sort of travelling Jack had to do. And in turn that always makes the traveller feel he's the one making the major effort, the supplicant almost, and the other stays where he is and has less to do other than accept what's done in an attempt to bridge the distance.
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The point is that to be sexually involved you have to be together - in some ways sex ( not just one-night stands!) is not just a reality, it's also the proof of something more absrtract, one's commitment to and love of someone else, wanting to spend all the time one can with them. If someone doesn't want to be in the same geographical location,or close, then sex is impossible without the sort of travelling Jack had to do. And in turn that always makes the traveller feel he's the one making the major effort, the supplicant almost, and the other stays where he is and has less to do other than accept what's done in an attempt to bridge the distance.
Ennis sits by the window and waits.
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Of course,sex was a part of the complaining that was in Jack´s statement,being what he asked for a greater intimacy that only a sharing life would have carried.Sex would be more satisfactory in same way for both of them,because all the aspects of their life would be satisfactory then.As I said,what Jack asked was a project of life far beyond a momentary sexual or phisycal satisfaction, even far beyond the satisfaction to be with the one you love...He wanted a total communion in body,soul and mind with his Ennis that only a life in common could bring him.IMO.
To echo myself in one of the previous posts, we shouldn't confuse the symptom with the problem. The lack of sex was a symptom of the real problem of wanting greater intimacy.
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"You didn't want it Ennis, so all we got now is BBM!"
This of course is not completely fair to Ennis. Ennis wanted it. It's just that he though he wasn't privy to it.
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The point is that to be sexually involved you have to be together - in some ways sex ( not just one-night stands!) is not just a reality, it's also the proof of something more absrtract, one's commitment to and love of someone else, wanting to spend all the time one can with them. If someone doesn't want to be in the same geographical location,or close, then sex is impossible without the sort of travelling Jack had to do. And in turn that always makes the traveller feel he's the one making the major effort, the supplicant almost, and the other stays where he is and has less to do other than accept what's done in an attempt to bridge the distance.
This is true. The passivity could be interpreted by some as disinterest. I think Jack was willing to look the other way on this because he understood Ennis better than most. Perhaps "I'm not you" echoes some of these differences also, in the sense that Jack will go the distance in order to make things work.
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This is true. The passivity could be interpreted by some as disinterest. I think Jack was willing to look the other way on this because he understood Ennis better than most. Perhaps "I'm not you" echoes some of these differences also, in the sense that Jack will go the distance in order to make things work.
My only problem how long does Jack have to go. It's like moving the goal post one yard, than another. (my football analogy may suck, but you get the idea), Jack was already questioning time, it wasn't enough. He was getting weary. Ennis was a hard case, and Jack was the only one who could stand it.
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My only problem how long does Jack have to go. It's like moving the goal post one yard, than another. (my football analogy may suck, but you get the idea), Jack was already questioning time, it wasn't enough. He was getting weary. Ennis was a hard case, and Jack was the only one who could stand it.
The fact that he lasted in this state of waiting for nearly 20 years is a testament to his fortitude. "i'm not you" seemed to havebeen a last (?) desperate cry from the heart. It is ironic that Ennis probably felt the same way for years, but just didn't try to show it. Irony of ironies.
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The fact that he lasted in this state of waiting for nearly 20 years is a testament to his fortitude. "i'm not you" seemed to havebeen a last (?) desperate cry from the heart. It is ironic that Ennis probably felt the same way for years, but just didn't try to show it. Irony of ironies.
tpe,
This "state of waiting", do you really think Ennis was feeling the same way? After all it was he who wanted to push the date back for the next meeting, which started this thing. It was Ennis who held this little piece of information back from Jack, for a week, and after Jack made his confession of how much he needed him. The armour came down, Jack was in a vunderable state, and now this happens. Jack was push away by so many in his life, and the one person, Ennis, was pushing him away too, how much of this could Jack take, why did Ennis feel he could do this to him?
Ennis knew what kind of reaction Jack would have, Ennis was almost nonchalant about the whole thing, but was caught unaware by Jack bitter response. When Ennis walked up to him, Jack was waiting for Ennis to punch him again if not worse.
Ennis wasn't prepared to know how Jack really felt. He didn't know or wanted to know that Jack went else where for sex, that Jack laid out for him what they could have had, and what Ennis didn't want, that Jack wished he could just quit him.
Ennis broke and Jack comforted him. Ennis said there was no reins on this one, but did he have and lost the reins he held on Jack? Jack was ready to cut him loose and Ennis couldn't take the idea.
A lot been said about Ennis finding the shirts, and that Jack really did love him, but the way Jack was left at the final confrontation, did he know that Ennis really did love him too? Or left thinking that what they had was bringing Ennis nothing but grief? You wonder what was on Jack's mind when Ennis drove away, you almost understand why he crave again the dozy embrace.
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tpe,
This "state of waiting", do you really think Ennis was feeling the same way? After all it was he who wanted to push the date back for the next meeting, which started this thing. It was Ennis who held this little piece of information back from Jack, for a week, and after Jack made his confession of how much he needed him. The armour came down, Jack was in a vunderable state, and now this happens. Jack was push away by so many in his life, and the one person, Ennis, was pushing him away too, how much of this could Jack take, why did Ennis feel he could do this to him?
Ennis knew what kind of reaction Jack would have, Ennis was almost nonchalant about the whole thing, but was caught unaware by Jack bitter response. When Ennis walked up to him, Jack was waiting for Ennis to punch him again if not worse.
Ennis wasn't prepared to know how Jack really felt. He didn't know or wanted to know that Jack went else where for sex, that Jack laid out for him what they could have had, and what Ennis didn't want, that Jack wished he could just quit him.
Ennis broke and Jack comforted him. Ennis said there was no reins on this one, but did he have and lost the reins he held on Jack? Jack was ready to cut him loose and Ennis couldn't take the idea.
A lot been said about Ennis finding the shirts, and that Jack really did love him, but the way Jack was left at the final confrontation, did he know that Ennis really did love him too? Or left thinking that what they had was bringing Ennis nothing but grief? You wonder what was on Jack's mind when Ennis drove away, you almost understand why he crave again the dozy embrace.
Hello manhattangirl. I think a part of Ennis always shared a dream of one day living with Jack, but another part of him wouldn't allow it. I do think this was part of his being conflicted. "I can't stand this anymore, Jack" seemed to indicate that he was so tired of fighting against himself.
I think when Ennis broke down, jack probably realized the truth -- that Ennis was also dealing with the pain of not being together too often. I think I mentioned in another post somewhere that Ennis not wanting to meet in August suggested two possibilities: (1) that work really constrained him to do this, and (2), a part of him was trying to pull away. I think even if we take (2) to be true, it doesn't mean that it didn't hurt Ennis also -- he's so complicated, that something like this is indeed possible.
I suspect that Jack never really knew how much Ennis loved him too. He probably knew that he (Jack) loved Ennis -- that was enough for him, I guess.
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Hello manhattangirl. I think a part of Ennis always shared a dream of one day living with Jack, but another part of him wouldn't allow it. I do think this was part of his being conflicted. "I can't stand this anymore, Jack" seemed to indicate that he was so tired of fighting against himself.
I think when Ennis broke down, jack probably realized the truth -- that Ennis was also dealing with the pain of not being together too often. I think I mentioned in another post somewhere that Ennis not wanting to meet in August suggested two possibilities: (1) that work really constrained him to do this, and (2), a part of him was trying to pull away. I think even if we take (2) to be true, it doesn't mean that it didn't hurt Ennis also -- he's so complicated, that something like this is indeed possible.
I suspect that Jack never really knew how much Ennis loved him too. He probably knew that he (Jack) loved Ennis -- that was enough for him, I guess.
I personally believed Ennis would never live with Jack. This is someone with deep abandonment issues, keeping Jack at a distance where he could handle him emotionally was all Ennis could cope with.
Remember how his reaction when they parted that first summer. So devastating, his pain so deep, that it was a physical reaction losing someone he'd grown emotionally, mentally, and sexually attach to.
How would've been if they did live together? Would Ennis smother Jack with his fears, would Jack feel the pressure of constant reassurances that he wasn't going anywhere?
We got a hint of the bickering that goes on between them, when they argued when Jack suggested Ennis moved to Texas. Ennis could be pretty nasty and hurtful towards Jack, but protective of him at other times. We also have the issues of Jack's little trips to Mexico, and Ennis's reaction to them, how much would the knowledge that Jack could do this play into Ennis's mind.
I'm not looking at Ennis being gay, straight or whatever, but a man with problems that started in childhood, carried with him to adulthood, and how it shape and moulded him as a lover, a companion to another human being for life. Would Jack take the time and understand this of man he loved so much.
"I not you, Ennis", that said a lot. Could Jack and Ennis really survive as a couple living together?
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I am usually awed by your analysis, manhattangirl, so it's refreshing that I don't agree with you regarding Ennis having abandonment issues. I think he kept Jack at a distance because he didn't know how to handle this thing with no name, with no reins on it. I see Ennis as someone who likes his world very organized and neat. With everything in its place, and this thing with Jack just couldn't fit into his world. Once he learned it is love, with Cassie showing the way, he was ready to jump in with both feet, sending the card to Jack. And when it fell apart, he pursued Jack all the way to Lightning Flat, which he could have done, but never did when Jack goes to visit his folks. I felt that Jack was inviting Ennis to come along for a couple days, and probably had done so explicitly before, but was rebuffed.
Ennis was simply not ready. It took a lot to change his thinking. Cassie, the shirts, the realization that Jack's Ma accepted them all along... I watched that kitchen scene again, and this time I didn't cry because I was just so transfixed by the non-verbal communication between Ennis and Jack's Ma. I still cried when Ennis found the shirts, but that's about all. I think I've got my PBS out of the system for now, until the next time when emotions overwhelm understanding.
I agree with you, however, that Ennis and Jack as a couple will not always be smooth sailing, as when they lived their fantasy of Brokeback Mountain. Real life can be difficult on couples. How they deal with problems can be seen from their shooting an elk for food, Jack taking care of Ennis when the bear spooked the horses, and the two worked together to get the sheep back after the storm. I think they will make a good team, provided Ennis can rise above the wall, the fortress that he built. With Jack's Ma helping, I think the two of them has a good chance making it on the ranch, in spite of the old man. Perhaps, because of the old man, since having a common enemy is the best way for them to bond.
I agree with your observation that Jack may not know Ennis' love for him. His back was turned when Ennis broke down at his words, You have no idea how bad it gets. I think he has no idea that Ennis suffers also. Then again, perhaps it's his new stud duck persona that is now ignoring the very thing that he saw and loved in Ennis back in '63, that Ennis was the personification of loneliness. He does not enjoy it, just stand it because unlike Jack, he doesn't know how to fix it. Once he realized he doesn't have to be alone, he became alive. His footsteps coming down those stairs and across the kitchen floor were lighter, lightest in the whole movie. I always wondered why these cowboys drag their feet. Now I realize it is the genius of Ang Lee, preparing the moment when Ennis is presented as the new man, light on his feet, with love in his heart.
Both Jack and Ennis changed during the movie, in the twenty years, as expected with anyone, but they changed in different ways, and at different speed. Jack is quite right that he is not Ennis. If he truly loved Ennis, he would have found a way to deal with it. He tried his hardest, but as he said, Ennis was too much for him, just as he was too much for Ennis at the end, asking for more frequent meetings, instead of coming right out and offered to build a cabin in his parents' ranch. I think Ennis would have been ready for that, instead of just two guys living together. Anyway, I'm beginning to ramble off topic. ~)
I personally believed Ennis would never live with Jack. This is someone with deep abandonment issues, keeping Jack at a distance where he could handle him emotionally was all Ennis could cope with.
Remember how his reaction when they parted that first summer. So devastating, his pain so deep, that it was a physical reaction losing someone he'd grown emotionally, mentally, and sexually attach to.
How would've been if they did live together? Would Ennis smother Jack with his fears, would Jack feel the pressure of constant reassurances that he wasn't going anywhere?
We got a hint of the bickering that goes on between them, when they argued when Jack suggested Ennis moved to Texas. Ennis could be pretty nasty and hurtful towards Jack, but protective of him at other times. We also have the issues of Jack's little trips to Mexico, and Ennis's reaction to them, how much would the knowledge that Jack could do this play into Ennis's mind.
I'm not looking at Ennis being gay, straight or whatever, but a man with problems that started in childhood, carried with him to adulthood, and how it shape and moulded him as a lover, a companion to another human being for life. Would Jack take the time and understand this of man he loved so much.
"I not you, Ennis", that said a lot. Could Jack and Ennis really survive as a couple living together?
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Lance,
Ennis lost the most essential people in his life his parents, his brother, and his sister. Jack enters his life, Jack leave his life. Ennis's breakdown shows how he dealt with profound loss, and how he cope with loss. To loose those you were close to is hard for anyone, and especially for a child. And what's so heartbreaking in Ennis's case he didn't even realize it. What was he thinking while on his knees, puking and crying, when Jack drove away?
Ennis is a man of few words, but abundance of emotions. A man used to seeing those he loved and depended either die or leave him alone to fend for himself.
Jack wasn't someone he could compartmentalize, in every action, in very decision Ennis made after '67 was made with Jack in the back of his mind. Jack sure was in his dreams, and his heart before they met again.
Ennis was great student of loss, grief, love, denial, denying himself a life with the one person that mattered to him, in the hopes of keeping them safe from harm? Or that Jack too will leave him for whatever reason? "So why don't you just leave me be", That's why I feel Ennis wouldn't live with Jack, fear of abandonment.
Just a thought.
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Well, manhattangirl, I can't argue with your brilliant analysis, and perhaps I have the same issues as Ennis, and that is why I cannot see it. It's probably obvious to everyone else.
I will let your words stew a bit and see what comes out. I know you are right about Ennis' reaction to loss, as in his puking in summer of '63, the brooding on the grassy slope before leaving the mountain, etc. I just don't see the connection between that and his ability to live with Jack. I think once he realized that Jack is for real, that he was loved for twenty years, in the form of the two shirts, he was ready to accept and embrace Jack in his own world. I think the November post card was Ennis' way of getting ready to literally allow Jack into his fortress, forever. As I said a few times before, Ennis doesn't love easily, as Jack does, but once he gives his heart, he gives all of it, without reservation. Just my opinion, and may not be true of the Real Ennis. ;)
With respect to "So why don't you just leave me be", I think that refers to Ennis' inability, at that time, to deal with his feelings for Jack. He was so confused, that the only thing he could say, after Jack hammered his heart one blow after another, was to say the one thing that will take away those feelings, to help Jack quit him. As you said before, these two instinctively fulfill the other's wishes. When Jack said, "I wish I knew how to quit you", Ennis was physical ill because he instinctively wants to help Jack but at the same time, cannot stand losing Jack. In the end, he told Jack what they both needed to hear in order to give themselves permission to stop seeing each other. He was peaceful in the diner when Cassie walked in, because he was at peace with letting go of Jack, knowing that's what Jack wanted. But when Cassie cried, and said "Girl don't fall in love with fun", he realized that he and Jack were in love, and fun or not, they needed to be together. Hence the November post card.
Just my two cents worth. I think Ennis and Jack would make a great couple in the big city, starting a business and television with "train your pet" and/or home renovation, kind of like a combination of two shows in one. ^-^
Lance,
Ennis lost the most essential people in his life his parents, his brother, and his sister. Jack enters his life, Jack leave his life. Ennis's breakdown shows how he dealt with profound loss, and how he cope with loss. To loose those you were close to is hard for anyone, and especially for a child. And what's so heartbreaking in Ennis's case he didn't even realize it. What was he thinking while on his knees, puking and crying, when Jack drove away?
Ennis is a man of few words, but abundance of emotions. A man used to seeing those he loved and depended either die or leave him alone to fend for himself.
Jack wasn't someone he could compartmentalize, in every action, in very decision Ennis made after '67 was made with Jack in the back of his mind. Jack sure was in his dreams, and his heart before they met again.
Ennis was great student of loss, grief, love, denial, denying himself a life with the one person that mattered to him, in the hopes of keeping them safe from harm? Or that Jack too will leave him for whatever reason? "So why don't you just leave me be", That's why I feel Ennis wouldn't live with Jack, fear of abandonment.
Just a thought.
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Just my two cents worth. I think Ennis and Jack would make a great couple in the big city, starting a business and television with "train your pet" and/or home renovation, kind of like a combination of two shows in one. ^-^
Lance,
I know this way off topic, (my apologies Cham), but there's a little bar in Chelsea, a section of Manhattan, and whenever I'm there, I can't help but picture Ennis waiting outside for Jack, looking at his watch, wondering where he is. Isn't that weird.
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I personally believed Ennis would never live with Jack. This is someone with deep abandonment issues, keeping Jack at a distance where he could handle him emotionally was all Ennis could cope with.
Remember how his reaction when they parted that first summer. So devastating, his pain so deep, that it was a physical reaction losing someone he'd grown emotionally, mentally, and sexually attach to.
How would've been if they did live together? Would Ennis smother Jack with his fears, would Jack feel the pressure of constant reassurances that he wasn't going anywhere?
We got a hint of the bickering that goes on between them, when they argued when Jack suggested Ennis moved to Texas. Ennis could be pretty nasty and hurtful towards Jack, but protective of him at other times. We also have the issues of Jack's little trips to Mexico, and Ennis's reaction to them, how much would the knowledge that Jack could do this play into Ennis's mind.
I'm not looking at Ennis being gay, straight or whatever, but a man with problems that started in childhood, carried with him to adulthood, and how it shape and moulded him as a lover, a companion to another human being for life. Would Jack take the time and understand this of man he loved so much.
"I not you, Ennis", that said a lot. Could Jack and Ennis really survive as a couple living together?
Hello manhattangirl. I think they would survive as a couple -- only because Jack probably knew what he was getting into in the first place. In spite of Ennis being confliced and all, he never lost the desire to be with him.
I don't know if Ennis never really wanted to live with Jack. A part of him certainly didn't want it. But something tells me that the other part of him definitely wanted it. I think these 2 opposing parts of him is at the root of his anguish.
I think the bickering is not unusual in relaxed relationships. As to Ennis smothering Jack with his fears, I would like to think that perhaps Jack would succeed in partly lifting the burden of fear and guilt in Ennis.
Going back to my original statement, I think Jack understood wnat he was getting into. He understood Ennis. He could have made it work...
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Hello manhattangirl. I think they would survive as a couple -- only because Jack probably knew what he was getting into in the first place. In spite of Ennis being confliced and all, he never lost the desire to be with him.
I don't know if Ennis never really wanted to live with Jack. A part of him certainly didn't want it. But something tells me that the other part of him definitely wanted it. I think these 2 opposing parts of him is at the root of his anguish.
I think the bickering is not unusual in relaxed relationships. As to Ennis smothering Jack with his fears, I would like to think that perhaps Jack would succeed in partly lifting the burden of fear and guilt in Ennis.
Going back to my original statement, I think Jack understood wnat he was getting into. He understood Ennis. He could have made it work...
I agree with you tpe. If Jack was alive to read Ennis' postcard, he would've redlined all the way back. Thing is, I am beginning to wonder if Jack doesn't have a streak of the stud duck in him that was so evident in his old man. The thanksgiving dinner when he stood up to old newsome may have released the demon, so to speak, and now he is ready to bully and push his way to get what he wants, including Ennis. I really didn't find his last scene very attractive. Even his cowboy hat, if you'd notice, was shaped in such a way that the flaps on the side resembled horns. Perhaps I am reading too much into it, but the aggressive side of Jack that was beginning to emerge may also scare Ennis. Thing is, they see each other not as the person in front of them, but as a reflection of the memory they shared in the summer of '63. Love can tolerate a lot, so I think they will survive as a couple, when given a chance.
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I agree with you tpe. If Jack was alive to read Ennis' postcard, he would've redlined all the way back. Thing is, I am beginning to wonder if Jack doesn't have a streak of the stud duck in him that was so evident in his old man. The thanksgiving dinner when he stood up to old newsome may have released the demon, so to speak, and now he is ready to bully and push his way to get what he wants, including Ennis. I really didn't find his last scene very attractive. Even his cowboy hat, if you'd notice, was shaped in such a way that the flaps on the side resembled horns. Perhaps I am reading too much into it, but the aggressive side of Jack that was beginning to emerge may also scare Ennis. Thing is, they see each other not as the person in front of them, but as a reflection of the memory they shared in the summer of '63. Love can tolerate a lot, so I think they will survive as a couple, when given a chance.
I don't think there was anything in common between Jack and John in this regard. And the nearly 20 years all point to the fact that he was probably too patient with Ennis -- some members had asked if things would have ended better had Jack been a bit more pushy with Ennis.
There are 2 good examples where we see Jack always too ready to back down. The first one is the post-divorce scene when Jack is rejected by Ennis. A more assertive person would not have taken no for an answer, especially if one drove nonestop for 14 hours to be with someone. The second is the "paranoia" scene between Jack and Ennis. Jack was clearly in the right here. It was understandable that he would recommend to Ennis a change of scene if he felt that others suspected him. And when Ennis responded rather irritably, Jack simply chose to go away.
These instances indicate that Jack perhaps gave Ennis tto much leeway. "I'm not you, Ennis" could also be applied in this context: in that Jack was perhaps not as assertive with things he felt strongly about.
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Where is the line between enough and too much? You're right about Jack giving in too easily. However, we are all familiar with the aphorism:If you love something, set it free. If it's meant to be yours, it will come back to you. Well, Ennis always came back. So, maybe Jack was betting on that. He was willing to let Ennis make his moves as he saw fit, knowing that Ennis would always find his way back to Jack eventually.
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Where is the line between enough and too much? You're right about Jack giving in too easily. However, we are all familiar with the aphorism:If you love something, set it free. If it's meant to be yours, it will come back to you. Well, Ennis always came back. So, maybe Jack was betting on that. He was willing to let Ennis make his moves as he saw fit, knowing that Ennis would always find his way back to Jack eventually.
I agree. I felt that jack understood what it meant: to give Ennis some breathing space.
I always found Jack to be very undestanding of Ennis, especially when you contrast things between Ennis and Lureen after the reunion.
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I don't think there was anything in common between Jack and John in this regard. And the nearly 20 years all point to the fact that he was probably too patient with Ennis -- some members had asked if things would have ended better had Jack been a bit more pushy with Ennis.
There are 2 good examples where we see Jack always too ready to back down. The first one is the post-divorce scene when Jack is rejected by Ennis. A more assertive person would not have taken no for an answer, especially if one drove nonestop for 14 hours to be with someone. The second is the "paranoia" scene between Jack and Ennis. Jack was clearly in the right here. It was understandable that he would recommend to Ennis a change of scene if he felt that others suspected him. And when Ennis responded rather irritably, Jack simply chose to go away.
These instances indicate that Jack perhaps gave Ennis tto much leeway. "I'm not you, Ennis" could also be applied in this context: in that Jack was perhaps not as assertive with things he felt strongly about.
I agree with you on both examples, but I am referring to Jack AFTER the Thanksgiving scene. In the paranoia scene, Jack was still dealing with his own demon. He hid the fact that Aquirre had spotted them with binoculars back in '63. In the short story, Jack was more forthcoming with this information, but even then, it was not full disclosure, i.e. the humiliating experience the next summer. This, IMHO, caused Jack to back down even when he could have pursued this and invited Ennis to Lightning Flat. Did he EVER named the Twist ranch to Ennis, or just referring to some vague cow and calf operation? I think Ennis, the ever pragmatic and practical foot-on-the-ground Ennis, would react differently seeing the family ranch.
Secondly, I am NOT equating Jack with the old man, merely pointing the potential, and the direction that Jack was going near the last few months in his life. He was becoming angry and frustrated with Ennis, even though he still loved him. If I had given the impression that Jack was another old man Twist, then please allow me to correct the misunderstanding. I was speaking of potentiality, not actuality.
Just my two cents.
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I agree with you on both examples, but I am referring to Jack AFTER the Thanksgiving scene. In the paranoia scene, Jack was still dealing with his own demon. He hid the fact that Aquirre had spotted them with binoculars back in '63. In the short story, Jack was more forthcoming with this information, but even then, it was not full disclosure, i.e. the humiliating experience the next summer. This, IMHO, caused Jack to back down even when he could have pursued this and invited Ennis to Lightning Flat. Did he EVER named the Twist ranch to Ennis, or just referring to some vague cow and calf operation? I think Ennis, the ever pragmatic and practical foot-on-the-ground Ennis, would react differently seeing the family ranch.
Secondly, I am NOT equating Jack with the old man, merely pointing the potential, and the direction that Jack was going near the last few months in his life. He was becoming angry and frustrated with Ennis, even though he still loved him. If I had given the impression that Jack was another old man Twist, then please allow me to correct the misunderstanding. I was speaking of potentiality, not actuality.
Just my two cents.
Personally, I don't think that Jack was dealing with any personal demons in the "paranoia scene". It clearly disturbed him that Ennis would begin to suspect everyone around him as knowing about his homosexuality. Jack's reaction was typical of any person confronted by a friend who was showing signs of paranoia: try to let him get away from the suspected source, in this case, Riverton itself.
As was discussed in some of the older threads, Jack not telling Ennis about Aguirre was probably motivated by the knowledge that Ennis would not be able to handle it. The same thing can be said when Jack answered "Me neither" to Ennis's "You know I ain't queer." Jack knew better than to confront Ennis head-on when it came to Ennis's innate fears and paranoia, and he was wise not to have pursued the matter. It was their love for each other that he wanted Ennis to accept, and not their being queer or not.
Jack discussed the cow and calf operation in his initial offer during the reunion -- when he had the offer from the elder Newsome to scram and accept money as recompense. As the years progressed and this offer became moot, the dream shifted to bringing Ennis back to the family ranch. I don't see why Ennis would have looked down on the ranch at LF, considering that Ennis himself was innured to hardship and poverty, not even owning a ranch of his own and simply content to remain a hired hand. His refusal to take either offer of a cow and calf operation or the LF ranch was not practical-minded, IMO. It was driven primarily by his own deep-seated fear to live openly with Jack.
I think Jack became increasingly angry and frustrated with Ennis simply because Ennis had become more distant and hard-to-get with each succeeding year. Any person would have probably reacted the same way, if he loved the other person enough. To me, John Twist didn't love anyone enough to be that angry or frustrated. John Twist's anger and frustration were largely selfish in nature, if you pardon my mean estimation of Jack's father. In any case, therein lies the chief difference.
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Personally, I don't think that Jack was dealing with any personal demons in the "paranoia scene". It clearly disturbed him that Ennis would begin to suspect everyone around him as knowing about his homosexuality. Jack's reaction was typical of any person confronted by a friend who was showing signs of paranoia: try to let him get away from the suspected source, in this case, Riverton itself.
As was discussed in some of the older threads, Jack not telling Ennis about Aguirre was probably motivated by the knowledge that Ennis would not be able to handle it. The same thing can be said when Jack answered "Me neither" to Ennis's "You know I ain't queer." Jack knew better than to confront Ennis head-on when it came to Ennis's innate fears and paranoia, and he was wise not to have pursued the matter. It was their love for each other that he wanted Ennis to accept, and not their being queer or not.
Jack discussed the cow and calf operation in his initial offer during the reunion -- when he had the offer from the elder Newsome to scram and accept money as recompense. As the years progressed and this offer became moot, the dream shifted to bringing Ennis back to the family ranch. I don't see why Ennis would have looked down on the ranch at LF, considering that Ennis himself was innured to hardship and poverty, not even owning a ranch of his own and simply content to remain a hired hand. His refusal to take either offer of a cow and calf operation or the LF ranch was not practical-minded, IMO. It was driven primarily by his own deep-seated fear to live openly with Jack.
I think something can point out that Jack became increasingly angry and frustrated with Ennis simply because Ennis had become more distant and hard-to-get with each succeeding year. Any person would have probably reacted the same way, if he loved that person enough. To me, John Twist didn't love anyone enough to be that angry or frustrated. John Twist's anger and frustration were largely selfish in nature, if you pardon my mean estimation of Jack's father. In any case, therein lies the chief difference.
Thanks, tpe. I love this forum exactly for this reason, to be shown that I am wrong. I am still not happy with the suspicious minds scene, but I guess there is never going to be satisfaction in that unsatisfactory situation.
You analysis of Ennis' refusal to Jack is interesting, and never occurred to me that LD Newsome's offer to pay off Jack was conditional and time-limited. I can also see another reason why the Twist ranch proposal is not a happy one for them either. There is still the old man, and Jack may be reluctant to bring it up in fear of him. I can see the scene every time Jack visits and mentioned Ennis. The scowl on the old man's face, him spitting in his cup. If it ain't for Jack's Ma, Jack would've turned his back on Lightning Flat long ago.
And you are not mean, because some people are angry just because they are so self-centered and selfish that they would be angry until they have everything their way. And we all know that ain't ever goin' to happen, so they are always angry. Until the old man learns to accept the world as it is, Jack as he is, he won't be happy, no way.
Thanks, tpe. I love your insights.
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Thanks, tpe. I love this forum exactly for this reason, to be shown that I am wrong. I am still not happy with the suspicious minds scene, but I guess there is never going to be satisfaction in that unsatisfactory situation.
You analysis of Ennis' refusal to Jack is interesting, and never occurred to me that LD Newsome's offer to pay off Jack was conditional and time-limited. I can also see another reason why the Twist ranch proposal is not a happy one for them either. There is still the old man, and Jack may be reluctant to bring it up in fear of him. I can see the scene every time Jack visits and mentioned Ennis. The scowl on the old man's face, him spitting in his cup. If it ain't for Jack's Ma, Jack would've turned his back on Lightning Flat long ago.
And you are not mean, because some people are angry just because they are so self-centered and selfish that they would be angry until they have everything their way. And we all know that ain't ever goin' to happen, so they are always angry. Until the old man learns to accept the world as it is, Jack as he is, he won't be happy, no way.
Thanks, tpe. I love your insights.
I think that the fact that we continue to talk about these scenes and situations and end up with different points of view and interpretations is testament to the richness of the film and story.
I think the differences between Ennis and Jack is but one part of the richness of the whole, even if the differences between the two lovers constitute the engine that drives the whole tragedy. We can account for these differences in so many ways. And yet in the end, they all bring us back to a deeper appreciation and admiration of a love that survived in spite of the differerences.
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When Jack tells Ennis, "I'm not you," he means that he can't pretend like everything is fine when it's not, like Ennis pretends. Ennis truly, deeply loves Jack the same way that Jack loves him. Deep down inside, he knows that he and Jack are meant to be together, and he can never be happy in his life without Jack. But Ennis is afraid, and therefore he just pretends like he's content in his life, when he's not. He doesn't like it, but he feels like he can't fix it, so he just has to put up with it. It just once again sums up the difference between Ennis and Jack. Jack won't let his fear stop him from being who he is and living the life he deserves. Ennis is a person who wishes he could be free to be who is and live the life he deserves, but his fear stops him from that, and Ennis' fear is keeping not only Ennis prisoner, but Jack prisoner as well.
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When Jack tells Ennis, "I'm not you," he means that he can't pretend like everything is fine when it's not, like Ennis pretends. Ennis truly, deeply loves Jack the same way that Jack loves him. Deep down inside, he knows that he and Jack are meant to be together, and he can never be happy in his life without Jack. But Ennis is afraid, and therefore he just pretends like he's content in his life, when he's not. He doesn't like it, but he feels like he can't fix it, so he just has to put up with it. It just once again sums up the difference between Ennis and Jack. Jack won't let his fear stop him from being who he is and living the life he deserves. Ennis is a person who wishes he could be free to be who is and live the life he deserves, but his fear stops him from that, and Ennis' fear is keeping not only Ennis prisoner, but Jack prisoner as well.
Hi again,Athena¡ Here we can see how Ennis and Jack are different as well as complementaries.Each one of them has a quality that the other is lacked or hasn't got in such a great measure:Jack the dreamer has his counterpoint in Ennis,the realistic man,to avoid being living in the clouds; Ennis has the happier and more romantic Jack's side to be more open to himself and the other.The pity is that no one of them knew how to use these differences as a way to find a solution and the way to get what they wished...In this case,both of them are the same,because in fact they never had enough communication between them as to look for this solution; the more openness Jack got from Ennis when they were in BBM never worked so well after that.
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When Jack tells Ennis, "I'm not you," he means that he can't pretend like everything is fine when it's not, like Ennis pretends. Ennis truly, deeply loves Jack the same way that Jack loves him. Deep down inside, he knows that he and Jack are meant to be together, and he can never be happy in his life without Jack. But Ennis is afraid, and therefore he just pretends like he's content in his life, when he's not. He doesn't like it, but he feels like he can't fix it, so he just has to put up with it. It just once again sums up the difference between Ennis and Jack. Jack won't let his fear stop him from being who he is and living the life he deserves. Ennis is a person who wishes he could be free to be who is and live the life he deserves, but his fear stops him from that, and Ennis' fear is keeping not only Ennis prisoner, but Jack prisoner as well.
I'm not sure how much Ennis is aware of these things, his feelings for Jack. I think that more than he is pretending, he's repressing. I agree with you that he loves Jack the same way Jack loves him, but I don't know if he admits that to himself or allows himself to think about it. Does he know that he and Jack are meant to be together? That I'm not sure of, since Ennis can't accept the idea of two men living together. Heath described Ennis as "a homophobic man in love with another man" and being that, he hates the way he loves. He can't accept his feelings, he surely can't consider the idea that he might be gay. He represses his feelings so deeply because admitting them would be too frightening for him. So yes, his feelings for Jack are as strong as Jack's feelings for him, but I think it's more in his subconscious while Jack is aware of his feelings, and that's one of the differences between them. I think that realization had hit Ennis when he went to Jack's parents' house, when he found the shirts, don't know how much he was able to admit to himself before that. Maybe Jack's statement that "I'm not like you" was partly a hint to this difference between them - that unlike Ennis, Jack couldn't repress his feelings and go on, he was too aware of his needs and of his love for Ennis, he wasn't restricted by the same paralyzing fear that chained Ennis. Acknowledging his feelings the way he did, he just couldn't go through life the way Ennis did. He knew that he needed more.
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Wonderful exhcange here. Thanks athena0204 for your point of view. As with keren, I do think that it is more a matter of repression. But I know what you mean: there seems to be a double meaning in the statement "I'm not you":
1. That Jack was saying that he couldn't repress his desires the way Ennis did.
2. As you said: Jack can't "pretend" that everything was fine.
The pretense is for me a form of repression on the part of Ennis, and Jack was trying to tell him that he could not live this way.
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And also there's implicit in this statement that Jack didn't have enough with the few times a year he met each other,because his main wish was sharing his life with Ennis. And,of course,as you say Thomas,that he couldn't repress this wish the way Ennis did-or pretended to do...-;or better said,that he couldn't repress it for more time already.There was a precipice between what Ennis accepted and what he pretended he accepted,that was far littler in Jack's case.Jack also was saying that he could´t live for more time that lie of pretending they were happy with these little love's pieces they obtained from each other every four or five months.He was saying:-"My existential phrase is not If you can't fix it,you've got to stand itlike you have.Mine is You've got to stand it only while you're fighting to fix it.And as long as you can't understand this difference between you and me,Ennis,there will be an unsatisfactory situation about our future".IMO.
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For me, the critical pretense on the part of Ennis was to give his fears the upper hand -- making it seem that these fears were necessary to keep them safe. In this way, he did pretend that the status quo was all for the best, and so repressed his true desires. The facade of stoicism may also be considered a pretense, given that when left alone (as in the alley) or confronted directly (as in the last meeting with Jack), he knew fully well that he couldn't really stand it.
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For me, the critical pretense on the part of Ennis was to give his fears the upper hand -- making it seem that these fears were necessary to keep them safe. In this way, he did pretend that the status quo was all for the best, and so repressed his true desires. The facade of stoicism may also be considered a pretense, given that when left alone (as in the alley) or confronted directly (as in the last meeting with Jack), he knew fully well that he couldn't really stand it.
Yes,persons who disguise themselves most and best with the stoicism cloak are who break down in a most complete and desperate way,aren't they?.So,we can see how the deepest radical reactions come on Ennis part;when they must leave BBM,in the alley,in the confrontation scene...Even in the reunion scene we see how he's taking off this cloak and looks like even more desperate and needy of the relationship than Jack himself;whom we see crying only in the rejection after the divorce,but who is maintaining his reactions (his feelings,his needs...) in a more continued and permanent way.It's difficult,really difficult to oblige your mind,you heart and your mouth to say NO when you want to give all a different answer,indeed...That's Ennis great contradiction with which he lived all his life,and that Jack,obviously,didn't have.
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Yes,persons who disguise themselves most and best with the stoicism cloak are who break down in a most complete and desperate way,aren't they?.So,we can see how the deepest radical reactions come on Ennis part;when they must leave BBM,in the alley,in the confrontation scene...Even in the reunion scene we see how he's taking off this cloak and looks like even more desperate and needy of the relationship than Jack himself;whom we see crying only in the rejection after the divorce,but who is maintaining his reactions (his feelings,his needs...) in a more continued and permanent way.It's difficult,really difficult to oblige your mind,you heart and your mouth to say NO when you want to give all a different answer,indeed...That's Ennis great contradiction with which he lived all his life,and that Jack,obviously,didn't have.
Yes, the difference was that Jack was able to admit to Ennis that he was not like him (i.e., Ennis), whereas Ennis struggled to admit to himself that he was not what he wanted people to think he was.
I hope this is not too convoluted a statement, but I hope you get what I mean...
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Yes, the difference was that Jack was able to admit to Ennis that he was not like him (i.e., Ennis), whereas Ennis struggled to admit to himself that he was not what he wanted people to think he was.
I hope this is not too convoluted a statement, but I hope you get what I mean...
And hence his contradictions,his inner struggle and,even,his violence as a way of relieve himself from his frustration...
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I wonder if Ennis knew himself at all. "I'm nothing, I'm nowhere", did he know where he fit in this world. His reclusive nature when he's not with Jack makes me think that he really didn't know where he fit in. Like Jack, it was like he was searching too for not so much respect, but his own identity.
He was caught between the idea of being called "queer", a label which could mean his own possible death, and living that "up right straight life", where he couldn't quite master, he did make a mess of his marriage, and couldn't make that intimate connection with Cassie.
He wasn't Jack, and Jack wasn't him. Both looking for respect and identity, and found it in each other only on the mountain.
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i guess we will never know i always took it mainly as he was saying he didnt have the same amount of sexual restraint as ennis he needed more sex but also that he needed ennis more than ennis was there for him, so many other suggestions seem plausible though.
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I'm not sure how much Ennis is aware of these things, his feelings for Jack. I think that more than he is pretending, he's repressing. I agree with you that he loves Jack the same way Jack loves him, but I don't know if he admits that to himself or allows himself to think about it. Does he know that he and Jack are meant to be together? That I'm not sure of, since Ennis can't accept the idea of two men living together. Heath described Ennis as "a homophobic man in love with another man" and being that, he hates the way he loves. He can't accept his feelings, he surely can't consider the idea that he might be gay. He represses his feelings so deeply because admitting them would be too frightening for him. So yes, his feelings for Jack are as strong as Jack's feelings for him, but I think it's more in his subconscious while Jack is aware of his feelings, and that's one of the differences between them. I think that realization had hit Ennis when he went to Jack's parents' house, when he found the shirts, don't know how much he was able to admit to himself before that. Maybe Jack's statement that "I'm not like you" was partly a hint to this difference between them - that unlike Ennis, Jack couldn't repress his feelings and go on, he was too aware of his needs and of his love for Ennis, he wasn't restricted by the same paralyzing fear that chained Ennis. Acknowledging his feelings the way he did, he just couldn't go through life the way Ennis did. He knew that he needed more.
Hmmm, I think Ennis is completely aware of his feelings for Jack. But I do agree with you about the "paralyzing fear" part. I think the whole reason Ennis refuses to live together with Jack is because of that horrific and traumatizing memory he had from when his father showed him that gruesome scene years before. My feeling is that Ennis, deep down inside, knew who he really was, he knew that he was gay, but felt like he couldn't be that because society would never allow it, and it might kill him for it. Ennis was afraid for his life, and for Jack's life as well. Ennis was a prisoner in chains, forced to be someone he's not, to do what was expected of him, because if he didn't go by those rules, he was afraid of what people would think, what they would say, and what they might actually do, as he clearly saw from a young age that someone could be brutally murdered for not following society's standards. The line, "If you can't fix, you just gotta stand it.", is exactly what Jack means when he says "I'm not you,". Ennis is a person who is dying on the inside, who is drowning in sorrow and despair because he's so in love with Jack but can't be with him because of his fear. When he says "If you can't fix it...", it's clear that Ennis wishes he could fix it, that he could make his and Jack's dreams come true and be happy in their lives together, but the way Ennis sees it, he doesn't have a choice. He has to continue living a lie, betraying himself, pretending to be someone he's not, just to satisfy other people, because that's what was expected of him by society. This is all killing Ennis inside, and he's feeling miserable, and he knows he can never be happy without Jack, but he just goes on pretending that he's fine because he feels he doesn't have a choice. Jack too, is forced to pretend to be someone he's not by society, but unlike Ennis, Jack can't pretend, he will fight to be free, and he won't let fear hinder him, so therefore he says "I'm not you, Ennis." In the end, all those years later, Ennis finally realizes that he should have just listened to Jack, and took the chance that Jack was willing to take for the sake of true love.
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Hmmm, I think Ennis is completely aware of his feelings for Jack. But I do agree with you about the "paralyzing fear" part. I think the whole reason Ennis refuses to live together with Jack is because of that horrific and traumatizing memory he had from when his father showed him that gruesome scene years before. My feeling is that Ennis, deep down inside, knew who he really was, he knew that he was gay, but felt like he couldn't be that because society would never allow it, and it might kill him for it. Ennis was afraid for his life, and for Jack's life as well. Ennis was a prisoner in chains, forced to be someone he's not, to do what was expected of him, because if he didn't go by those rules, he was afraid of what people would think, what they would say, and what they might actually do, as he clearly saw from a young age that someone could be brutally murdered for not following society's standards. The line, "If you can't fix, you just gotta stand it.", is exactly what Jack means when he says "I'm not you,". Ennis is a person who is dying on the inside, who is drowning in sorrow and despair because he's so in love with Jack but can't be with him because of his fear. When he says "If you can't fix it...", it's clear that Ennis wishes he could fix it, that he could make his and Jack's dreams come true and be happy in their lives together, but the way Ennis sees it, he doesn't have a choice. He has to continue living a lie, betraying himself, pretending to be someone he's not, just to satisfy other people, because that's what was expected of him by society. This is all killing Ennis inside, and he's feeling miserable, and he knows he can never be happy without Jack, but he just goes on pretending that he's fine because he feels he doesn't have a choice. Jack too, is forced to pretend to be someone he's not by society, but unlike Ennis, Jack can't pretend, he will fight to be free, and he won't let fear hinder him, so therefore he says "I'm not you, Ennis." In the end, all those years later, Ennis finally realizes that he should have just listened to Jack, and took the chance that Jack was willing to take for the sake of true love.
There are so many things here that I agree on. And I love the way you say it.
I think "I'm not you Ennis" could also very well be interpreted as Jack telling Ennis that he couldn't suppress who he was deep inside.
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There are so many things here that I agree on. And I love the way you say it.
I think "I'm not you Ennis" could also very well be interpreted as Jack telling Ennis that he couldn't suppress who he was deep inside.
Yes,this short phrase can be interpreted in so many ways as viewers,a little in the line of the "Jack,I swear...".The final result is,as in this other case,the same:that there was deep differences on the basis of their relationship that they could never overcome for lack of communication.Much before that their frustrations explode in the final confrontation,when they said everything they had reserved inside for years...
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Yes,this short phrase can be interpreted in so many ways as viewers,a little in the line of the "Jack,I swear...".The final result is,as in this other case,the same:that there was deep differences on the basis of their relationship that they could never overcome for lack of communication.Much before that their frustrations explode in the final confrontation,when they said everything they had reserved inside for years...
Very good -- that you bring up the seeming ambiguities with "I'm not you..." and "I swear...".
The former certainly makes us think of all the subtle distinctions that differentiate Jack and Ennis -- the statement goes way beyond the surface of the obvious interpretation pertaining to sexual appetite.
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Very good -- that you bring up the seeming ambiguities with "I'm not you..." and "I swear...".
The former certainly makes us think of all the subtle distinctions that differentiate Jack and Ennis -- the statement goes way beyond the surface of the obvious interpretation pertaining to sexual appetite.
Of course,it goes.There's also a distinction between Jack and Ennis libido,but this is only one of the differences,the littlest,between them.But one of the differences that make them also so complementaries.
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Of course,it goes.There's also a distinction between Jack and Ennis libido,but this is only one of the differences,the littlest,between them.But one of the differences that make them also so complementaries.
Yes, the mastery of desire -- or the intent to master it -- seemded to have strongly inhibited Ennis. Jack did recognize that he didn't just have the mastery -- he recognized that he didn't want to. He was more open to his own desires. Perhaps this was one difference that Ennis secretly found appealing about Jack?
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Another phrase that remarks the differences between the both of them-this "I'm not you,Ennis..."-cames in the beginning of the conversation that leads to the confrontation scene: when he knows that they didn't see each other in more months that he thought,Jack is complaining about how easily Ennis went to their meetings in the beginning.But then,he says that Ennis "was so elusive as the Pope",as a way of illustrating that his lover was making greater and greater the time between these meetings.
Jack seems to be tired of having only the mountain as a "shelter" of their love-"all we've got is Brokeback Mountain;everything is builded on that..."-;but,at the same time,he has made of this place his reason of living,the place where he was and he is happy because it's this shelter for them,it's still their "paradise"...Ennis,however,even seeming more attached to the mountain than Jack in the end-or at least,is that he doesn't matter where they met...-,makes this reunions every time less frequent.Do you think it's only for economical reasons-the pension he must pay for his daughters obliged to accept any job,even if this didn't allow him to see Jack so frequently?Or it reflects some tiredness,if not of Jack himself,of the situation?Or an excuse more to avoid a real commitment,even passing over his need of Jack?.
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Another phrase that remarks the differences between the both of them-this "I'm not you,Ennis..."-cames in the beginning of the conversation that leads to the confrontation scene: when he knows that they didn't see each other in more months that he thought,Jack is complaining about how easily Ennis went to their meetings in the beginning.But then,he says that Ennis "was so elusive as the Pope",as a way of illustrating that his lover was making greater and greater the time between these meetings.
Jack seems to be tired of having only the mountain as a "shelter" of their love-"all we've got is Brokeback Mountain;everything is builded on that..."-;but,at the same time,he has made of this place his reason of living,the place where he was and he is happy because it's this shelter for them,it's still their "paradise"...Ennis,however,even seeming more attached to the mountain than Jack in the end-or at least,is that he doesn't matter where they met...-,makes this reunions every time less frequent.Do you think it's only for economical reasons-the pension he must pay for his daughters obliged to accept any job,even if this didn't allow him to see Jack so frequently?Or it reflects some tiredness,if not of Jack himself,of the situation?Or an excuse more to avoid a real commitment,even passing over his need of Jack?.
I think I mentioned in another thread long ago that I suspect that a part of Ennis also wanted some distance -- it is that same part of him that is probably dominated by fear. I can't be sure of this, but it is just my feeling.
Well, Jack was also saying that he wasn't Ennis in the sense that he couldn't deprive himself of their being together for long stretches. There is an urgency in Jack's love that contrasts strongly with Ennis's hesitations.
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I think I mentioned in another thread long ago that I suspect that a part of Ennis also wanted some distance -- it is that same part of him that is probably dominated by fear. I can't be sure of this, but it is just my feeling.
Well, Jack was also saying that he wasn't Ennis in the sense that he couldn't deprive himself of their being together for long stretches. There is an urgency in Jack's love that contrasts strongly with Ennis's hesitations.
Yes,it's the same than declare that he couldn't hide his feelings-with all that this means-for more time...only one of the many differences they had.
But it seems that,and mostly for what you say, there were two Ennis-to say it in same way-; one who was longing for being with his lover during more time,who even wished to share his live with him and who was suffering for the situation inside him.And other who was dominated for his own fears,hesitations and contradictions,at the point of building an each time greater edifice of separation between them with the "bricks" of all kind of excuses-even if they had a basis,like this of his daughter's pension...-.And more than it would be advisable,this second won the game to the first,is that right?.
Difficult to understand,although one puts in Ennis shoes,because loving someone is never have enough of him/ her; and more still when circumstances are the best and greater separation...A very complex personality,this Ennis... ???
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Yes,it's the same than declare that he couldn't hide his feelings-with all that this means-for more time...only one of the many differences they had.
But it seems that,and mostly for what you say, there were two Ennis-to say it in same way-; one who was longing for being with his lover during more time,who even wished to share his live with him and who was suffering for the situation inside him.And other who was dominated for his own fears,hesitations and contradictions,at the point of building an each time greater edifice of separation between them with the "bricks" of all kind of excuses-even if they had a basis,like this of his daughter's pension...-.And more than it would be advisable,this second won the game to the first,is that right?.
Difficult to understand,although one puts in Ennis shoes,because loving someone is never have enough of him/ her; and more still when circumstances are the best and greater separation...A very complex personality,this Ennis... ???
In truth, this may yet be another meaning for "I'm not you": that Jack was not a house divided, as he felt Ennis was.
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I'm not sure how much Ennis is aware of these things, his feelings for Jack. I think that more than he is pretending, he's repressing. I agree with you that he loves Jack the same way Jack loves him, but I don't know if he admits that to himself or allows himself to think about it. Does he know that he and Jack are meant to be together? That I'm not sure of, since Ennis can't accept the idea of two men living together. Heath described Ennis as "a homophobic man in love with another man" and being that, he hates the way he loves. He can't accept his feelings, he surely can't consider the idea that he might be gay. He represses his feelings so deeply because admitting them would be too frightening for him. So yes, his feelings for Jack are as strong as Jack's feelings for him, but I think it's more in his subconscious while Jack is aware of his feelings, and that's one of the differences between them. I think that realization had hit Ennis when he went to Jack's parents' house, when he found the shirts, don't know how much he was able to admit to himself before that. Maybe Jack's statement that "I'm not like you" was partly a hint to this difference between them - that unlike Ennis, Jack couldn't repress his feelings and go on, he was too aware of his needs and of his love for Ennis, he wasn't restricted by the same paralyzing fear that chained Ennis. Acknowledging his feelings the way he did, he just couldn't go through life the way Ennis did. He knew that he needed more.
Excellent posts in the thread , how could I miss this?
This post ,as alot of other's here struck me. This one in particular. I may be wrong here but, Here you say that Ennis may not have been aware of his feelings for Jack. I don't feel that Ennis was as *front and center* with his ability to show his lfeeling for Jack, but I do feel that he was very much aware of them.
In the reunion scenes he looses the fear for a few moments when he is so overcome with joy at seeing Jack again. Ater the reunion, and things had calmed down, Ennis knew that Jack had certain expectations after the way Ennis received him.
The conversation proceeds with Jack probably realizing that Ennis has not settled his preference for him over Alma. " you and Alma, that's a life" , Ennis is merely existing, not really enjoying life in a totally fullilled way. Ennis said some very interesting things in that conversation by the river including the story of Earl and Rich , told to Jack as vividly as it happened yesterday. The flashback showed a stunned, frightened child, having an image seared into his mind. A gay man dead in a ditch. As a child, it was not his only bout with death, but this one fit into the puzzle of his conflict within him,now, now that he finds himself in love with another man. He'd tried the *traditional* marriage route, did'nt work. Jack was a *third" person in their bedroom. He thought about Jack during those 4 yrs with Alma. Did the army get him? was he still mad over the punch? where was he? What happened to him? Is this why Jack never bothered to look him up sooner? He was resigned to a life of society's expectations of him. Get married, have kids and live happily ever after. The fact that he loves someone else more is not part of the bargin. Especially if it's feelings of love for another Man. He was loyal to family, while Jack sought to leave his if Ennis agreed. He was'nt Ennis.
It's not just "two guys livin together" that he fears, It's two guys IN LOVE living together. Meeting out in the middle of nowhere may be as close as he'd get to showing his love and need for Jack, but it's it is a feeling for Jack that drives him to show up. A feeling he cannot name, of course it's love. He loves being with him, because he gets something from it. Something he likes very much despite his father's homophobic teaching and preachings about gay men. despite the fear. He said it, with this feelings of awareness, with Jack in mind , he concedes that he cannot pull in the reins on them. Even if he wanted to, meaning Jack has grown a part of him, captured his heart. The Ennis pre-Brokeback, is not the same Ennis post- Brokeback. I believe he meant it from the heart too. For as long as they can ride it might as well be *till death itself do them part. He may be conflicted inside as far as what his sexual orientation may be ,but where it relates to Jack, he is in love. All the signs are there and we see them. Wether he knows , or accepts what this *thing* is , it has him in it's grip. ready or not, He really does'nt have it under control, It has him , like a drug.. He can't help but love Jack.
And of course Jack understood him. His cowboy being sensitive, skittish ,reserved, and complex. He understood the fears Ennis had, but he did'nt give up. Unlike him, Ennis was afraid of saying what he wants and getting it. Afraid of taking without conditions. To Ennis, nothing is free, including love, lessons learned from a cold, hard upbringing. Everything good thing in life has a price, and dreams and luck are fantasy.. He's not trusting enough. I feel he felt he would be expected to do something in return for Jack's unconditional love. Something big. something he may not be ready for. On the one hand he knows he has everything to gain from being with Jack, on the other hand , he is afraid of dissappointing Jack and himself if he says yes to Jack's proposal, and can't carry through with it, paranoia sets in, Jack gets mighty hurt, and Ennis risks loosing him forever. Ennis paces the meetings according to his schedule , but after enough time has passed, Jack begins to feel they're going nowhere with the relationship.
Jack will never forget the summer on Brokeback, but needs a sign that their love found there ,is growing and reaching a higher level over time. as it should.. His dream of ranching up with Ennis will fill that void in many ways. A a little courarage, compromise and verbal communication would have served them well.
The distance gives Ennis way too much time to think imo, probably conjures up all kinds of scenarios about ranching up. They'd be outed, ridiculed , and Earl and Rich would eventually be repeated. Jack will expect this, and Jack will expect that, Jack is open, he is closed, Jack likes people and loves to talk, he can't deal ..etc..
Jack, the dreamer becomes increasingly frustrated , but where can he go? back to Lureen and a half-life existence?, and who else can he love this way? Who else loves him like Ennis does despite the denials. In the confrontation, he said what he had to say, He was'nt Ennis, he did'nt handle things like Ennis, could'nt stand it like Ennis could. Did Ennis understand that the *short leash was choking Jack? I think so, he had one on himself as well. In order to tell lies to himself, he had to be very aware of the truth about his feelings for Jack.. He loved Jack and Jack loved him in spite of it all. MO. Thanx.
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If I were to go back to the ancient theory of the four humours and the elements that comprised them, I'd say Jack was fire and air, while Ennis was earth and water.
It fits their endings, too; Jack was cremated and went up in smoke; Ennis was left with his work on the land and his tears.
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If I were to go back to the ancient theory of the four humours and the elements that comprised them, I'd say Jack was fire and air, while Ennis was earth and water.
It fits their endings, too; Jack was cremated and went up in smoke; Ennis was left with his work on the land and his tears.
amazing metaphor im a little breathless...
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If I were to go back to the ancient theory of the four humours and the elements that comprised them, I'd say Jack was fire and air, while Ennis was earth and water.
It fits their endings, too; Jack was cremated and went up in smoke; Ennis was left with his work on the land and his tears.
Very beautiful.
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If I were to go back to the ancient theory of the four humours and the elements that comprised them, I'd say Jack was fire and air, while Ennis was earth and water.
It fits their endings, too; Jack was cremated and went up in smoke; Ennis was left with his work on the land and his tears.
Beautiful¡ And the air can move the earth and the water can extinguish the fire; so both of them could lessen the main characteristics of each other...
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If I were to go back to the ancient theory of the four humours and the elements that comprised them, I'd say Jack was fire and air, while Ennis was earth and water.
It fits their endings, too; Jack was cremated and went up in smoke; Ennis was left with his work on the land and his tears.
amazing..very well thought and expressed :)...just wanted to add to your great analysis....hope its ok :)..
Jack was fire who always wanted to burn in passion and air to fly high with his love for Ennis....Ennis was more conscious of the society inhibitions in the world and these inhibitions did leave him thirsty for more in the end...
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amazing..very well thought and expressed :)...just wanted to add to your great analysis....hope its ok :)..
Jack was fire who always wanted to burn in passion and air to fly high with his love for Ennis....Ennis was more conscious of the society inhibitions in the world and these inhibitions did leave him thirsty for more in the end...
Wonderful¡ :clap: :clap: :clap: You have put it into words in a lovely way¡.And I'd add that Ennis had his roots on Earth-and his feet-but he needed water; water to lessen his passion for Jack in the beginning-because this put him into a conflict with society-and water to lessen his thirst for him,his memories and for a better life in the end. :\'(
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Wonderful¡ :clap: :clap: :clap: You have put it into words in a lovely way¡.And I'd add that Ennis had his roots on Earth-and his feet-but he needed water; water to lessen his passion for Jack in the beginning-because this put him into a conflict with society-and water to lessen his thirst for him,his memories and for a better life in the end. :\'(
:t)
The Water was a hope to quench his thirst for Jack and soothe his soul and live by those memories with Jack---amazing thought :)
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Beautiful exchange, MPJ and smartestsonia. Thank you. :)
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wow, that's a hard question. so many things in those 4 words, he !!!
that's what great with bbm, it's all so succinct that you can read it at least 1000 different ways most of the times. i guess that's why the movie touch so many people, because we can put in it what we need/want/hope to see in it.
to me, it's a "i can't live anymore with the little tiny bits you allow us to have" (jack is tired of standing it, he needs to fix it, or cut it.)
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ps : love the way you started the topic, you thought about it a lot ...
I'm not you: En, you don't know anything about your real sexuality, well, I mean, you don't accept it and you don't want to accept it. But I'm different; I know who I am, I know well what I want, I like boys, yeah, really, and I'm not ashamed of it. I said to you: I'm not a queer, but I was so young and I didn't want to lose you, so what about if I tell you I'm gay? What? I'm not afraid of people, I'm not afraid of killers, I'm not afraid of Earl and Rich's ghost; are you going to punch me? Come on, I'm not afraid of you!!!
-> tammy i like your take on that one A LOT !!!
I'm not you: En, you are so stoic, so conformist, so realistic.......but, at the same time, you are so sad, so bitter. I was a dreamer, I was a boy full of hope, I was happy, I used to smile all the whole time, and I really would like to be that Jack again; I need it En; I'm not you, I need dreams, crazy things, promises to carry on; I need words, I need to know that you love me.
-> you know, you made me cry here.
vanessa
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-> tammy i like your take on that one A LOT !!!
-> you know, you made me cry here.
vanessa
*o) Well, Vane, I was NOT kidding when I said to you that I love the way you think and feel and ALL what you write, because you are like me; I think we are so similar, I mean, we see Ennis and Jack almost with the same eyes, and that's why you gave me wings, because you read my mind and heart and you know what I love from BBM and what I need to dream again.
Thank you for your post. :^^)
Sorry for this rambling and OT, Thomas and moderators!! ^f^
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For me,
Jack accused Ennis of not wanting a life with him, that Ennis was willing to accept the status quo. Jack believed that the couple of high attitude f@$ks was just fine with Ennis. I think Jack was was saying, "I'm not you". This arrangement is not OK with me.
Jack was sadly under the misunderstanding, that this is what Ennis wanted, but on a deeper level, this was not OK with Ennis, this was Ennis's burden. How could Jack know that how Ennis lived his life was all done to keep Jack in his life.
IMO.
i had to cry :(
but i can't help but believe that the moment ennis falls on his knees just a moment later, jack realises though that ennis feels it too. getting someone as ennis del mar to cry at your feet, it must means something, right? no matter how tired, desperate, sad and hurting you are, you can't misunderstand THAT, right ???? and jack must know, somewhere under the hurt, that ennis is standing it because he believes it's the only way to keep jack safe (please, jack, remember at least the look on the white pick-up driving by that damn day of '75, huh ...)
but then there's the why don't you just let me be, and the i can't take it anymore, jack. (god) which can be taken (as nearly all the time with ennis) in 2 total opposite ways ... - so sorry, now i'm going off topic i guess, but i can't help to yell DAMN YOU ENNIS too :( - and jack is lost again ... :(
why had the movie had to end that way, huh. why couldn't they get that meeting in november and finally talk and fix a few things, huh. jeez, i'm a mess, i should go to bed now :(
vanessa
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I'm not sure how much Ennis is aware of these things, his feelings for Jack. I think that more than he is pretending, he's repressing. I agree with you that he loves Jack the same way Jack loves him, but I don't know if he admits that to himself or allows himself to think about it. Does he know that he and Jack are meant to be together? That I'm not sure of, since Ennis can't accept the idea of two men living together. Heath described Ennis as "a homophobic man in love with another man" and being that, he hates the way he loves. He can't accept his feelings, he surely can't consider the idea that he might be gay. He represses his feelings so deeply because admitting them would be too frightening for him. So yes, his feelings for Jack are as strong as Jack's feelings for him, but I think it's more in his subconscious while Jack is aware of his feelings, and that's one of the differences between them. I think that realization had hit Ennis when he went to Jack's parents' house, when he found the shirts, don't know how much he was able to admit to himself before that. Maybe Jack's statement that "I'm not like you" was partly a hint to this difference between them - that unlike Ennis, Jack couldn't repress his feelings and go on, he was too aware of his needs and of his love for Ennis, he wasn't restricted by the same paralyzing fear that chained Ennis. Acknowledging his feelings the way he did, he just couldn't go through life the way Ennis did. He knew that he needed more.
WOW keren, that is gorgeously put !!! :(
i totally agree with you, except on one point.
to me, ennis realised right by that lake confrontation finally everything for what it is - hence the crying and falling on the ground. the shirts were then the confirmation that it had always been like that for jack too, that mexico and "that ranch neighbour from down i texas" (jeez, that must have hurt so bad :( ) really never had mattered.
to me, those 2 scenes mirrored each other, in a way. the confrontation scene and ennis breaking apart is jack's proof finally that ennis FEELS it too. the shirts scene is ennis proof that jack - even after their arguying by the lake - never really gave up on him and still FELT it till the end.
crying again :(
us being around here surely makes kleenex happy and richer by the minut :(
vanessa
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*o) Well, Vane, I was NOT kidding when I said to you that I love the way you think and feel and ALL what you write, because you are like me; I think we are so similar, I mean, we see Ennis and Jack almost with the same eyes, and that's why you gave me wings, because you read my mind and heart and you know what I love from BBM and what I need to dream again.
Thank you for your post. :^^)
Sorry for this rambling and OT, Thomas and moderators!! ^f^
sorry everyone, off toppic but for the last time ...
tammy, i guess you're right. we really ARE sisters of the mind :) and you know you give me wings too, all the time :)
hugs
vanessa
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*o) Well, Vane, I was NOT kidding when I said to you that I love the way you think and feel and ALL what you write, because you are like me; I think we are so similar, I mean, we see Ennis and Jack almost with the same eyes, and that's why you gave me wings, because you read my mind and heart and you know what I love from BBM and what I need to dream again.
Thank you for your post. :^^)
Sorry for this rambling and OT, Thomas and moderators!! ^f^
No need to apologize. It is great to see this thread after not having seen it in a while. It is always moving to re-read the wonderful posts here...
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Jack He was saying:-"My existential phrase is not If you can't fix it,you've got to stand itlike you have.Mine is You've got to stand it only while you're fighting to fix it.And as long as you can't understand this difference between you and me,Ennis,there will be an unsatisfactory situation about our future".IMO.
that's really nicely put !!!!
I wonder if Ennis knew himself at all. "I'm nothing, I'm nowhere", did he know where he fit in this world. His reclusive nature when he's not with Jack makes me think that he really didn't know where he fit in. Like Jack, it was like he was searching too for not so much respect, but his own identity.
He was caught between the idea of being called "queer", a label which could mean his own possible death, and living that "up right straight life", where he couldn't quite master, he did make a mess of his marriage, and couldn't make that intimate connection with Cassie.
He wasn't Jack, and Jack wasn't him. Both looking for respect and identity, and found it in each other only on the mountain.
AND
Yes,persons who disguise themselves most and best with the stoicism cloak are who break down in a most complete and desperate way,aren't they?.So,we can see how the deepest radical reactions come on Ennis part;when they must leave BBM,in the alley,in the confrontation scene...Even in the reunion scene we see how he's taking off this cloak and looks like even more desperate and needy of the relationship than Jack himself;whom we see crying only in the rejection after the divorce,but who is maintaining his reactions (his feelings,his needs...) in a more continued and permanent way.It's difficult,really difficult to oblige your mind,you heart and your mouth to say NO when you want to give all a different answer,indeed...That's Ennis great contradiction with which he lived all his life,and that Jack,obviously,didn't have.
yep. totally true.
damn ennis, love you so much baby :\'( :\'( :\'(
*crying my eyes out*
vanessa
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the one thing i can't figure out is that ennis would fight two big biker dudes and be afraid of some dead old guy he saw when he was kid. ennis was afraid of the dark, and too dumb to think jack had a flashlight.
i know this may sound stupid. but thinking about it thats how i feel.
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the one thing i can't figure out is that ennis would fight two big biker dudes and be afraid of some dead old guy he saw when he was kid. ennis was afraid of the dark, and too dumb to think jack had a flashlight.
i know this may sound stupid. but thinking about it thats how i feel.
i really like the way you told that, nice choice of words. but it wasn't that ennis was dumb. it was just that he was REALLY afraid. ennis isn't scared of getting in a fight and getting bruised. but he's scared to death about the possibility (in his mind, even the certainty) that them living together will bring harm to them - thus harm to jack.
fear is one of the most powerful feeling. i would even say it's the most powerful emotion we can feel, equalled only with love, in an antithesis way. hate isn't the opposite of love, fear is. we are powerless against them both. and they push us to do what they want us to do, no matter what, making us move mountains or run as far as possible away from them when they hold us in their grip.
so ennis isn't being dumb. he is just being scared. because there's nothing as bad as losing someone you hold dear. the pain of the loss of someone who was it all ... how can you ever recover from that ... i know that's what i'm scared of the most, maybe even more than my own death. so in my mind, ennis was scared to death about something bad happening to jack because he knew the only thing he maybe wouldn't be able to stand would be something bad happening to jack.
the thing with fear is that's it's an instinct which can kills you, but which can save you too. so in ennis's mind, listening to his fear IS the right way to keep them from harm. after all, fear is what push the gazelle to flee when the lions come to get her, and fear give the gazel the chance to escape and stay unharmed. it's maybe just a 50/50 chance, but it's more chance than just staying here and waiting for the claws to rip you apart, right ... or to use your metaphor, staying hidden in the dark can save your life too. using a flashlight can save you, but it can kill you too, because then, bad things know where to go if they want to find you ... so using a flashlight is in the end just a 50/50 chance too.
the tragic in BBM of course being that being scared of that only brought ennis's fear to become reality in the end. ennis realised far too late the safer choice after all would have been keeping jack close, and not holding him at the arm length he believed was safe. because then they would have least be able to fight together, and not apart. because in the end, better fall together than being the last one standing.
so now ... as we say in french OUINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN ...
*sorry, can't continue, too much thinking and rambling about this and i just dissolve into a mess*
vanessa
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the one thing i can't figure out is that ennis would fight two big biker dudes and be afraid of some dead old guy he saw when he was kid. ennis was afraid of the dark, and too dumb to think jack had a flashlight.
i know this may sound stupid. but thinking about it thats how i feel.
Well, we should remember that traumatic memories -- especially those that happen in childhood -- have a much more powerful hold on people than we would think. In fact, imagined fears are usually greater than real ones. It is part and parcel of human nature to react to fear viscerally -- whether or not the fear itself is real or justified.
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the one thing i can't figure out is that ennis would fight two big biker dudes and be afraid of some dead old guy he saw when he was kid. ennis was afraid of the dark, and too dumb to think jack had a flashlight.i know this may sound stupid. but thinking about it thats how i feel.
I like very much the way you describe it,Topoex,even if I don't agree totally with you.Ennis was able to fight with these two big bikers without any fear because he reacted as the male who is defending his family.to say it in some way...-.But he was afraid all his life not of a dead old guy,but of what this guy meant,or could mean for him;the intolerance,the lack of respect,the misunderstanding and the hate.This old guy could have been himself,or Jack,and it's the symbolism who scared him.
I don't think this is being dumb,because IMO he knew fairly well that Jack had a flashlight,what's more; he knew fairly well that Jack WAS his flashlight in life.But let's say that his fears were bigger than his love,and this was his,their,tragedy...
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I love the exchanges here. Our two newest members got me, right here. Kudos to you both. O0
the one thing i can't figure out is that ennis would fight two big biker dudes and be afraid of some dead old guy he saw when he was kid. ennis was afraid of the dark, and too dumb to think jack had a flashlight.
i know this may sound stupid. but thinking about it thats how i feel.
I love that metaphor... Ennis was afraid of the dark, but was too [scared] to see that Jack had the flashlight. More on this later, after Vennesa's brilliant analysis.
i really like the way you told that, nice choice of words. but it wasn't that ennis was dumb. it was just that he was REALLY afraid. ennis isn't scared of getting in a fight and getting bruised. but he's scared to death about the possibility (in his mind, even the certainty) that them living together will bring harm to them - thus harm to jack.
fear is one of the most powerful feeling. i would even say it's the most powerful emotion we can feel, equalled only with love, in an antithesis way. hate isn't the opposite of love, fear is. we are powerless against them both. and they push us to do what they want us to do, no matter what, making us move mountains or run as far as possible away from them when they hold us in their grip.
so ennis isn't being dumb. he is just being scared. because there's nothing as bad as losing someone you hold dear. the pain of the loss of someone who was it all ... how can you ever recover from that ... i know that's what i'm scared of the most, maybe even more than my own death. so in my mind, ennis was scared to death about something bad happening to jack because he knew the only thing he maybe wouldn't be able to stand would be something bad happening to jack.
the thing with fear is that's it's an instinct which can kills you, but which can save you too. so in ennis's mind, listening to his fear IS the right way to keep them from harm. after all, fear is what push the gazelle to flee when the lions come to get her, and fear give the gazel the chance to escape and stay unharmed. it's maybe just a 50/50 chance, but it's more chance than just staying here and waiting for the claws to rip you apart, right ... or to use your metaphor, staying hidden in the dark can save your life too. using a flashlight can save you, but it can kill you too, because then, bad things know where to go if they want to find you ... so using a flashlight is in the end just a 50/50 chance too.
the tragic in BBM of course being that being scared of that only brought ennis's fear to become reality in the end. ennis realised far too late the safer choice after all would have been keeping jack close, and not holding him at the arm length he believed was safe. because then they would have least be able to fight together, and not apart. because in the end, better fall together than being the last one standing.
so now ... as we say in french OUINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN ...
*sorry, can't continue, too much thinking and rambling about this and i just dissolve into a mess*
vanessa
:ghug: Vanessa :\'( I have never seen Brokeback Mountain and Ennis and Jack encapsulated so well, in short short a post. (:) :^^) Awesome.
The movie is about homophobia, Ennis' fear created by the childhood trauma of witnessing first-hand in close range to what homophobia can do, to someone he knew, maybe even was close to. You are so right about the fear of loss being the powerful engine in the movie, and the irony, the tragedy of it. If Ennis had the courage to overcome his own fear, to embrace Jack his whole life, then he would not have lost. It was the fear, that kept them separated, and the fear that caused them to be apart when Jack needed Ennis the most...better to fight and fall together, and to be live separate lives apart... :\'(
Fear keeps us separate as lonely individuals...Love brings us together into communities.
Even hate, at least, brings two people together into sometimes a powerful love-hate relationship that caused endless pain, but not loneliness. Hate, as you said, is anti-love. Fear is the opposite of love. Fear isolates; love binds.
Welcome, and thank you so much for you beautiful thoughts. :ghug: :^^) :c) ^f^
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i really like the way you told that, nice choice of words. but it wasn't that ennis was dumb. it was just that he was REALLY afraid. ennis isn't scared of getting in a fight and getting bruised. but he's scared to death about the possibility (in his mind, even the certainty) that them living together will bring harm to them - thus harm to jack.
fear is one of the most powerful feeling. i would even say it's the most powerful emotion we can feel, equalled only with love, in an antithesis way. hate isn't the opposite of love, fear is. we are powerless against them both. and they push us to do what they want us to do, no matter what, making us move mountains or run as far as possible away from them when they hold us in their grip.
so ennis isn't being dumb. he is just being scared. because there's nothing as bad as losing someone you hold dear. the pain of the loss of someone who was it all ... how can you ever recover from that ... i know that's what i'm scared of the most, maybe even more than my own death. so in my mind, ennis was scared to death about something bad happening to jack because he knew the only thing he maybe wouldn't be able to stand would be something bad happening to jack.
the thing with fear is that's it's an instinct which can kills you, but which can save you too. so in ennis's mind, listening to his fear IS the right way to keep them from harm. after all, fear is what push the gazelle to flee when the lions come to get her, and fear give the gazel the chance to escape and stay unharmed. it's maybe just a 50/50 chance, but it's more chance than just staying here and waiting for the claws to rip you apart, right ... or to use your metaphor, staying hidden in the dark can save your life too. using a flashlight can save you, but it can kill you too, because then, bad things know where to go if they want to find you ... so using a flashlight is in the end just a 50/50 chance too.
the tragic in BBM of course being that being scared of that only brought ennis's fear to become reality in the end. ennis realised far too late the safer choice after all would have been keeping jack close, and not holding him at the arm length he believed was safe. because then they would have least be able to fight together, and not apart. because in the end, better fall together than being the last one standing.
so now ... as we say in french OUINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN ...
*sorry, can't continue, too much thinking and rambling about this and i just dissolve into a mess*
vanessa
This is made of awesome, Vane. I'm pretty speechless here. No wonder why you're a writer. (t) (t) (t)
So gorgeous and powerful post, full of truth and beautiful punching meaning. I agree with every word, baby. I especially love the last part. :\'( :\'( :\'(
Thank you. ^f^
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the word dumb may have been a little hard. but the one thing i don't see is trust. i see no trust between the two, ennis to me didn't trust himself or jack.
the one thing i knew is that i trust my lover, not to hurt me, or put in a bad spot. i didn't see that with ennis. he stay away, and hid. jack was telling ennis come out the hole you're in, here's my hand.
how could they live together happy, if ennis didn't trust in jack they could be happy.
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Well, we should remember that traumatic memories -- especially those that happen in childhood -- have a much more powerful hold on people than we would think. In fact, imagined fears are usually greater than real ones. It is part and parcel of human nature to react to fear viscerally -- whether or not the fear itself is real or justified.
i didn't read this one until now. bad things that happened in childhood, it could break you, or make you. it broke ennis. i chose not to let what happen break me. some say it might still be with me. but to let it stop me from having what i want, i had to decide.
jack gave twenty years for ennis to decide. and died waiting for it. i sure as hell wasn't going to let it be me, i knew what i wanted.
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" how could they live together happy, if Ennis didn't trust in jack they could be happy"
This was part of the tragedy. A struggle we are presented. These two broken desperate boys/men couldn't be happy together. Not in any conventional/traditional sense. But they manage, through it all, to find a way it could work, for them, in that time, in that place. Not prefect by any means. Gut-wrenchin in my opinion. Not for the faint of heart. Sometimes love doesn't conquer all.
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the word dumb may have been a little hard. but the one thing i don't see is trust. i see no trust between the two, ennis to me didn't trust himself or jack.
the one thing i knew is that i trust my lover, not to hurt me, or put in a bad spot. i didn't see that with ennis. he stay away, and hid. jack was telling ennis come out the hole you're in, here's my hand.
how could they live together happy, if ennis didn't trust in jack they could be happy.
i didn't read this one until now. bad things that happened in childhood, it could break you, or make you. it broke ennis. i chose not to let what happen break me. some say it might still be with me. but to let it stop me from having what i want, i had to decide.
jack gave twenty years for ennis to decide. and died waiting for it. i sure as hell wasn't going to let it be me, i knew what i wanted.
topoex, you are one remarkable young man. What you said about trust is absolutely right on. Fear made Ennis distrustful. I caught on to those early surreptitious glances as distrustful of strangers, even though now, I see elements of interest and attraction there also. You are right that Jack knew and trusted what could be between them, and reached out to Ennis...I love your metaphors...Ennis hiding in his hole, and Jack reaching out his hand for Ennis to take hold, but Ennis was too fearful, and could not bring himself to trust Jack, or himself to have a new future. Bravo, topoex. You are awesome.
Childhood trauma are indeed powerful, but the sooner we get over them, the earlier in age we recognize and overcome them, the more likely that they do not leave lasting impact. Ennis was already nineteen when he met Jack, by reunion he was already twenty three. With every year, and every meet, the old habits got further entrenched into Ennis and also into his relationship with Jack, until after twenty years, the final confrontation was almost inevitable.
I am so glad to hear you making a choice, to decide for yourself what you want in your future. I know you will have a bright and happy future. There is nothing you cannot do, as long as you trust in yourself to make the right choice, and continue to search for answers to your perceptive questions. I am very glad you are here in this forum. :ghug: ^f^
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i didn't read this one until now. bad things that happened in childhood, it could break you, or make you. it broke ennis. i chose not to let what happen break me. some say it might still be with me. but to let it stop me from having what i want, i had to decide.
jack gave twenty years for ennis to decide. and died waiting for it. i sure as hell wasn't going to let it be me, i knew what i wanted.
You are right. Many people are left broken by traumatic experiences, especially the ones that happen in childhood. To be able to rise above this brokenness requires much bravery and faith in oneself and others. You are right in saying that such things never leave us. But to rise above it in spite of our inability to put these experiences to rest is something that can bring peace to the heart and the soul. We cannot usually undo many things what have happened in the past, but we can mend the soul and make it stronger. Again, the image of tempering metal in a furnace is apt. It is through fire and hammering that we gain strength, if we allow ourselves to bend in the fire, and not melt altogether.
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" how could they live together happy, if Ennis didn't trust in jack they could be happy"
This was part of the tragedy. A struggle we are presented. These two broken desperate boys/men couldn't be happy together. Not in any conventional/traditional sense. But they manage, through it all, to find a way it could work, for them, in that time, in that place. Not prefect by any means. Gut-wrenchin in my opinion. Not for the faint of heart. Sometimes love doesn't conquer all.
And yet, Love always changes us -- and it is usually for the better.
Jack was right in stating the he was unlike Ennis. He meant it both as a compliment and a rebuke. He understood that he (Jack) could not contain his love the wey Ennis constrained his. It was both a statement of wonderment as well as a plea for him to open up.
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It's not just "two guys livin together" that he fears, It's two guys IN LOVE living together. Meeting out in the middle of nowhere may be as close as he'd get to showing his love and need for Jack, but it's it is a feeling for Jack that drives him to show up. A feeling he cannot name, of course it's love. He loves being with him, because he gets something from it. Something he likes very much despite his father's homophobic teaching and preachings about gay men. despite the fear. He said it, with this feelings of awareness, with Jack in mind , he concedes that he cannot pull in the reins on them. Even if he wanted to, meaning Jack has grown a part of him, captured his heart. The Ennis pre-Brokeback, is not the same Ennis post- Brokeback. I believe he meant it from the heart too. For as long as they can ride it might as well be *till death itself do them part. He may be conflicted inside as far as what his sexual orientation may be ,but where it relates to Jack, he is in love. All the signs are there and we see them. Wether he knows , or accepts what this *thing* is , it has him in it's grip. ready or not, He really does'nt have it under control, It has him , like a drug.. He can't help but love Jack.
And of course Jack understood him. His cowboy being sensitive, skittish ,reserved, and complex. He understood the fears Ennis had, but he did'nt give up. Unlike him, Ennis was afraid of saying what he wants and getting it. Afraid of taking without conditions. To Ennis, nothing is free, including love, lessons learned from a cold, hard upbringing. Everything good thing in life has a price, and dreams and luck are fantasy.. He's not trusting enough. I feel he felt he would be expected to do something in return for Jack's unconditional love. Something big. something he may not be ready for. On the one hand he knows he has everything to gain from being with Jack, on the other hand , he is afraid of dissappointing Jack and himself if he says yes to Jack's proposal, and can't carry through with it, paranoia sets in, Jack gets mighty hurt, and Ennis risks loosing him forever. Ennis paces the meetings according to his schedule , but after enough time has passed, Jack begins to feel they're going nowhere with the relationship.
Jack will never forget the summer on Brokeback, but needs a sign that their love found there ,is growing and reaching a higher level over time. as it should.. His dream of ranching up with Ennis will fill that void in many ways. A a little courarage, compromise and verbal communication would have served them well.
The distance gives Ennis way too much time to think imo, probably conjures up all kinds of scenarios about ranching up. They'd be outed, ridiculed , and Earl and Rich would eventually be repeated. Jack will expect this, and Jack will expect that, Jack is open, he is closed, Jack likes people and loves to talk, he can't deal ..etc..
Jack, the dreamer becomes increasingly frustrated , but where can he go? back to Lureen and a half-life existence?, and who else can he love this way? Who else loves him like Ennis does despite the denials. In the confrontation, he said what he had to say, He was'nt Ennis, he did'nt handle things like Ennis, could'nt stand it like Ennis could. Did Ennis understand that the *short leash was choking Jack? I think so, he had one on himself as well. In order to tell lies to himself, he had to be very aware of the truth about his feelings for Jack.. He loved Jack and Jack loved him in spite of it all. MO. Thanx.
WOW, that got me REAL good !!!!!!!!!!
wonderful post !!!
If I were to go back to the ancient theory of the four humours and the elements that comprised them, I'd say Jack was fire and air, while Ennis was earth and water.
It fits their endings, too; Jack was cremated and went up in smoke; Ennis was left with his work on the land and his tears.
i need more tissues :(
that's so poetic and so true :(
thanks !
tammy and lance, thanks for your kind words, really, my god, that's too much honor, you got me all blushing and all ... :^^) ^f^ :^^) ^f^ (i feel even more embarassed than ennis on some occasions, so tammy, you know how much that means, lol !!! ;) ;D)
The movie is about homophobia, Ennis' fear created by the childhood trauma of witnessing first-hand in close range to what homophobia can do, to someone he knew, maybe even was close to. You are so right about the fear of loss being the powerful engine in the movie, and the irony, the tragedy of it. If Ennis had the courage to overcome his own fear, to embrace Jack his whole life, then he would not have lost. It was the fear, that kept them separated, and the fear that caused them to be apart when Jack needed Ennis the most...
Fear keeps us separate as lonely individuals...Love brings us together into communities.
Even hate, at least, brings two people together into sometimes a powerful love-hate relationship that caused endless pain, but not loneliness. Hate, as you said, is anti-love. Fear is the opposite of love. Fear isolates; love binds.
lance, enbolded moments above are truly beautiful (in an awfully sad way, but beautiful still) !!!
" how could they live together happy, if Ennis didn't trust in jack they could be happy"
This was part of the tragedy. A struggle we are presented. These two broken desperate boys/men couldn't be happy together. Not in any conventional/traditional sense. But they manage, through it all, to find a way it could work, for them, in that time, in that place. Not prefect by any means. Gut-wrenchin in my opinion. Not for the faint of heart. Sometimes love doesn't conquer all.
ranchand :(
that's awesome !
you made me cry :(
topoex, you are one remarkable young man. What you said about trust is absolutely right on. I love your metaphors...Ennis hiding in his hole, and Jack reaching out his hand for Ennis to take hold, but Ennis was too fearful, and could not bring himself to trust Jack, or himself to have a new future. Bravo, topoex. You are awesome.
I am so glad to hear you making a choice, to decide for yourself what you want in your future. I know you will have a bright and happy future. There is nothing you cannot do, as long as you trust in yourself to make the right choice, and continue to search for answers to your perceptive questions. I am very glad you are here in this forum.
topoex, i agree with lance here :) big hug to you :) :ghug:
vanessa