Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: Tony on Sep 09, 2007, 12:49 PM
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Most of us love BBM because it tugs at the heart of anyone who has a heart. And there is a central theme of love being universal as a force
that can't be boxed in. But am thinking several of the passages point also to the issues of change and redemption. Did anybody notice that
early on, there was a scene where Jack carries a lamb across a stream, almost like the Good Shepherd? I don't think it was an accident. Ennis
was someone paralyzed by emotional repression and he was, basically,doomed. Then there is the ending, where a battered, weary Ennis is
challenged by his daughter to commit---to go to her wedding. He makes a sudden decision- he will commit. And then that is followed by the
haunting ending--"Jack....I swear...". Maybe not in the SS, but in the movie, it seems to me that Jack taught him HOW to love, to break free
and in that sense, his love for Ennis was redemptive, changing Ennis into someone who could finally risk--commitment.
Another way of putting this is--what would have Ennis have been had he never met Jack? The divorce from Alma was going to happen
anyway. And after that--no place else to go. There are many layers to this movie, but I think the last scenes do point to the love having
been redemptive. As in, Jack left him grieving, for the rest of his life, yes, but not spiritually and emotionally dead from the lonely childhood
and the shallow posing of men proving they are men by not loving. Is this going to get me excommunicated as a "Brokie"? Saying there is
another central theme besides love between two men? And by redemption, I do mean just that--saved from the hell of a life with no meaning.
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Hello Tony!!!
I agree with you. In fact, I didn’t agree with Ang Lee when he said that BBM was an American love story ‘cause it is more than that. I share your redemption's idea; it's so true for me, but I have my own ideas too. Well, for me, BBM is a love story, of course, but I’ve always thought that it is a story about people who has the impossibility to express the feelings, and about shame, and, as consequence of that, about loss. To illustrate all of these complicate mechanisms of human being the film is articulated around a love story.
About the impossibility to express feelings: Ennis was a man of few words ‘cause he had a painful difficult to define what he was feeling inside, what he wanted, what he needed, what he was afraid of. This impossibility to express himself deteriorate his relationship with the rest of people and with himself, preventing his happiness ‘cause he never say what he’s really thinking and feeling and then he never has got what he wish.
And in the other hand (about shame) he was ashamed of what he wished, and what he really was: a gay man, or a least, a man in love with another man. The film is showing how shame and guilty, through lies, can leads you to the pain and loss, how the refusal of who you really are destroy your entire life, your world…..
The film is a story about an introverted and insecure man who lost everything ‘cause he wasn’t able to accept his love and his sexuality. An important consequence of that refusal is the loss that it cause in people’s life who are living around him; all kind of loss. Loss of trust in everyone who was part of his life in some way (Alma-Ennis, Casie-Ennis, Ennis-Jack). Loss of love (Alma, Casie, Lureen, Ennis, Jack). Loss of family. Loss of dreams. Loss of happiness. And at the end, loss of life or loss of someone you loved (Jack’s death).
I think if Ennis weren’t gay and Jack were Jackie but Ennis were ashamed of his skin’s colour, it would be the same story. The shame and the refusal of what you are leads you to the abyss. I’ve always thought that even if Ennis and Jack were living in big city, nowadays, with tolerant people, Ennis would do the same things in the same way, Ennis would be the same ashamed man, ‘cause the society wasn’t the real problem in BBM; Ennis was the real problem ‘cause he was ashamed of being gay (he hated queers), so he never wouldn’t be able to admit his love for Jack, although he were living in gay’s paradise. I think the Earl and Rich’s story was an excuse he told himself to deny his true fears. Of course, he was afraid of Earl’s death, but he was really afraid of his "abnormal" feelings…he was really ashamed of the fact he could be a queer.
So for me, BBM is a love story based on the shame and the impossibility to express who you really are.
Well, a good friend of mine said to me that BBM is a portrait about the parents’ influence in our childhood and how everything we learn, see and heard in that age can mark and define our life forever.
I hope you understand something ‘cause I have sooooooo many ideas in my mind, but I don’t speak English so I have no idea how to put them in words. Sorry so much. ^f^
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True art means a piace of art affects the person who sees it, hears it, reads it, or feels it. It doesn't have to fit into a mold that the creator built around it. So, if you see the story as redemptive, Tony, that is what it is to you and that is what makes this such a rich, deep piece of art. I understand your point about the redemption, and I am sure you are right. I focus more on the story as an allegory. There are millions and millions of people who never love completely because they are afraid. Ennis feared love for so many reasons. We sometimes focus on his fear of gay-bashers, and that is real, but his real fear is of commitment, as you pointed out, and his fear of being weak. He sees love as a giving in to another person, whether it be Alma or Jack. He's not able to do that. He cannot be weak. He didn't survive his childhood by being weak, and he can't break that pattern now. He must be strong, and strong men do not, in his mind, give in to love, commitment, risk, change, etc. So, to you Jack redeems Ennis; to me Jack just loves him, no matter what crap Ennis throws his way. In all their years together, Ennis never weakens, commits, risks or changes. That all comes AFTER Jack dies. So, in a religious sense, I get your point.
BTW, welcome to this wonderful forum!
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Most of us love BBM because it tugs at the heart of anyone who has a heart. And there is a central theme of love being universal as a force
that can't be boxed in. But am thinking several of the passages point also to the issues of change and redemption. Did anybody notice that
early on, there was a scene where Jack carries a lamb across a stream, almost like the Good Shepherd? I don't think it was an accident. Ennis
was someone paralyzed by emotional repression and he was, basically,doomed. Then there is the ending, where a battered, weary Ennis is
challenged by his daughter to commit---to go to her wedding. He makes a sudden decision- he will commit. And then that is followed by the
haunting ending--"Jack....I swear...". Maybe not in the SS, but in the movie, it seems to me that Jack taught him HOW to love, to break free
and in that sense, his love for Ennis was redemptive, changing Ennis into someone who could finally risk--commitment.
Another way of putting this is--what would have Ennis have been had he never met Jack? The divorce from Alma was going to happen
anyway. And after that--no place else to go. There are many layers to this movie, but I think the last scenes do point to the love having
been redemptive. As in, Jack left him grieving, for the rest of his life, yes, but not spiritually and emotionally dead from the lonely childhood
and the shallow posing of men proving they are men by not loving. Is this going to get me excommunicated as a "Brokie"? Saying there is
another central theme besides love between two men? And by redemption, I do mean just that--saved from the hell of a life with no meaning.
This is the way I picure it. I feel through the years, Ennis felt he had to deny his true self for fear of actually defining himself as a gay man. Deep down inside somewhere though I feel he knew the truth but just could'nt admit it or define it. It was just "this thing" that grabbed hold of him every time he met Jack.
He was acting the part, feeling it too every time they made love and every time Ennis met with Jack or longed for him during the abscences in between these meetings. Looked forward to the moments they would go into the mountains and once again he could enjoy being with him. This is what is so complicated and confusing to Jack and the veiwers of the film concerning Ennis. How could he deny what is so obviously so.
When he met Jack, his life was drasticly changed from a lonely existence to a completion like he'd never known before, but still he was he was unable to define it or say out loud what he felt. Only came close to it in the "aint no reins on this one" scene, so he was aware that this "thing" was not something he could not control, these feelings were real to him. Jack was showing Ennis something he could'nt bring himself to look at with eyes wide open. It is a very difficult task for Jack, trying to get Ennis to at least acknowledge that this "thing" had a name.
In the end it was the passion of the confrontation scene where I feel Jack brought Ennis face to face with his fears and shame. It was Jack, finally bringing the truth home to Ennis about his fears and what it was doing to both of them. Jack himself was the truth to Ennis. He knew a relationship must progress and grow to become stronger in a spiritual and emotional sense but serious personal decisions about love also must be made. Acknowledgements and personal responsibilities must be faced if Jack is to feel Ennis is serious about him and the "no reins" statement made earlier. I think Jack held on to this admission, it being his own redemption, his hope to go on. Otherwise the statement rings hollow.
After Jack's death, Ennis found that it was time that he did'nt have . Time had come for him to "fess up" to himself about how he denied Jack a life together, that he loved Jack, that it was indeed Jack who showed him how to love and accept love in return as a gay man. Though Jack was gone, Ennis did recieve redemption when he found the shirts. Now he could define it, put a name to what this "thing" was, It could only be love, Jack's love and his for Jack. What does he as a man profit to gain the approval of society,but looses his reason for existing in the first place ( Jack and his love for him) He learned a valuble lesson from Jack in that all the years he denied Jack and himself true happiness, He is forced by Jack's true nature of love , a gift of redemption, to swear to not let it be lost forever. Now he knows what Jack was saying through words and actions all along.
He swore to use what Jack had taught him to give love and to embrace it whenever an opportunity presented itself, for it can be snatched away in the blink of an eye. This I feel is where Ennis was truly redeemed by Jack , through this valuable lesson he taught him. In this way, Jack will forever live inside him. MO.
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Most of us love BBM because it tugs at the heart of anyone who has a heart. And there is a central theme of love being universal as a force
that can't be boxed in. But am thinking several of the passages point also to the issues of change and redemption. Did anybody notice that
early on, there was a scene where Jack carries a lamb across a stream, almost like the Good Shepherd? I don't think it was an accident. Ennis
was someone paralyzed by emotional repression and he was, basically,doomed. Then there is the ending, where a battered, weary Ennis is
challenged by his daughter to commit---to go to her wedding. He makes a sudden decision- he will commit. And then that is followed by the
haunting ending--"Jack....I swear...". Maybe not in the SS, but in the movie, it seems to me that Jack taught him HOW to love, to break free
and in that sense, his love for Ennis was redemptive, changing Ennis into someone who could finally risk--commitment.
Another way of putting this is--what would have Ennis have been had he never met Jack? The divorce from Alma was going to happen
anyway. And after that--no place else to go. There are many layers to this movie, but I think the last scenes do point to the love having
been redemptive. As in, Jack left him grieving, for the rest of his life, yes, but not spiritually and emotionally dead from the lonely childhood
and the shallow posing of men proving they are men by not loving. Is this going to get me excommunicated as a "Brokie"? Saying there is
another central theme besides love between two men? And by redemption, I do mean just that--saved from the hell of a life with no meaning.
I do think there is a redemptive element in the end. We see it in his accepting the wedding invitation. Even in his final words "I swear...", we see it, even though it is seen through a veil of tears.
I think it is part of the redemptive power of love: that we can lose someone wothout loving that love, and that we can live the pain, knowing that we have lived and loved all the same.
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REdemptive in the religious sense - I don't know. But in the more general sense of opening Ennis up to the range of human feelings, yes, probably. In Jack's case, I don't think so - inmany ways it seems possible to see him as frustrated and almost resentful, specially by the end, and looking about for alternatives. Ennis always has his own sense that he's doing the right thing to keep him gong, then after Jack's death the knowledge that he has loved and been loved in return. while Jack clings to the shirts in life as a symbol of what there had been, Ennis clings to them after Jack's death as a symbol of what is enduring.
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Did not mean in the religious sense. There are subtle religious undertones within this movie, including what I called the Good Shepherd
scene (Jack carrying a lamb across rough waters), the sudden switch from Ennis puking his guts out, to the "Our Father" prayer, the
innocence of both from religious dogma (shown in the scene where they are singing on the mountain), and Ennis having contempt for
fire and brimstone preaching.
But these seem to be trying to pry us loose from standard religious/denominational thinking to a broader sense of metaphysical and
real-world redemption, which is a double whammy. So I do very much mean what the last person replying said was possible- redemption
in that context. Jack saved Ennis from a life with no meaning and no hope of being loved for himself. Thanks for supporting that
as possible and also, my apologies for not being more specific. Tony.
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Did not mean in the religious sense. There are subtle religious undertones within this movie, including what I called the Good Shepherd
scene (Jack carrying a lamb across rough waters), the sudden switch from Ennis puking his guts out, to the "Our Father" prayer, the
innocence of both from religious dogma (shown in the scene where they are singing on the mountain), and Ennis having contempt for
fire and brimstone preaching.
But these seem to be trying to pry us loose from standard religious/denominational thinking to a broader sense of metaphysical and
real-world redemption, which is a double whammy. So I do very much mean what the last person replying said was possible- redemption
in that context. Jack saved Ennis from a life with no meaning and no hope of being loved for himself. Thanks for supporting that
as possible and also, my apologies for not being more specific. Tony.
Yes Tony, I do feel that there are religious and classical allusions in the film.
There is a thread specifically devoted to the image of the Good Shepherd in BBM the movie. I should try to find it and point it out to you. It also touches on the famous poem by Juan de la Cruz (John of the Cross) about the Good Shepherd in love, with reference to the character of Jack Twist...
The sense of redemption here is more "mythological" to me. Not in the full blown sense of Wagner's "Redemption through Love", but something related...
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It's probably not a good idea to get off-topic and get into the schmoozy and personal, but have really appreciated some of the replies to the
question I raised. When I first saw BBM, one scene that affected me was Jack challenging his father-in-law over being an ignorant S O B.
Am kind of limited because of a condition called agoraphobia, which limits my social life, but was ticked off by what friends and family I
have being....ignorant. And by that I mean---they have trouble empathizing with others. and getting out of the little boxes they call their
minds. So it's been, for me, a gift to know that you guys are there and that you think and feel and go where I can't go. I deeply
appreciate your very existence.
But it's no good to suppose people are automatically ignorant because they don't react exactly as we do. Many years ago, I had a bunch
of marine friends from the local bar and they were war-weary and battered. They kept using the homophobic "F" word too much and it was
bugging me, to where I complained. And they go: Aw, Tony, we don't mean it that way. We mean EVERYbody is a f----t. See, you got
your officers and they're medal f----ts, and your bankers, and they're money f----ts, and your motor pool marines and they're grease
f----ts!! No harm meant. So I go...well what do call a gay guy, then? They ruminated on this for a minute until one said--well that would
be a F----t -f----t! Actually, despite the use of that word, they were very tolerant and not ignorant at all. Maybe cynical. But given the
tribal love they had for each other, and that some had been a little sexually dubious, I think they would have liked BBM way back then, for
at least, having been battered by the world,they respected the hurts in other people.
Again,am way off-topic, and stressed out because i gotta go to the dentist and my mind is wandering. Back to the main point---love can
redeem and that is no challenge to a formalized redemption taught by the various faiths. Ennis was near to being a dying soul and his love
for Jack redeemed him. But even if you don't agree, thanks again for not having closed minds and shallow hearts. Don't know why I tossed
in the story about the marines---maybe because I remembered they were good people and not so ignorant as they might have seemed at
first glance. Thanks for the replies---it's good to know you are there. Tony.
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I deeply
appreciate your very existence.
. Thanks for the replies---it's good to know you are there. Tony.
Oh Tony...thank you so much for your beautiful words!!! For us it's real good to know you are there too, and also we all really appreciate your presence in our forum and your brokie friendship :^^)
Nice to meet you ^f^
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Wow. I just stumbled on this thread. Wonderful insights. :)
I definitely think there are themes of redemption here. And you've put it well. The tragedy (or one element of it anyway) is that Ennis learned his lessons too late to make use of them while Jack was alive. How much more tragic it would have been if he'd never learned them at all. In this way, the gift that Jack has given him is a valuable one indeed.
I also think that there are a lot of themes in this story, which is why it's so universally appealing. There is truly something to touch everyone. And a little piece of ourselves that is represented. Sometimes in ways that we don't even recognize at first. I'm glad you decided to share your thoughts on this topic. In my opinion, there are no wrong interpretations, just personal responses. It's a rare story indeed that can cover so many bases. Great posts, everyone. ^f^
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Wow. I just stumbled on this thread. Wonderful insights. :)
I definitely think there are themes of redemption here. And you've put it well. The tragedy (or one element of it anyway) is that Ennis learned his lessons too late to make use of them while Jack was alive. How much more tragic it would have been if he'd never learned them at all. In this way, the gift that Jack has given him is a valuable one indeed.
I also think that there are a lot of themes in this story, which is why it's so universally appealing. There is truly something to touch everyone. And a little piece of ourselves that is represented. Sometimes in ways that we don't even recognize at first. I'm glad you decided to share your thoughts on this topic. In my opinion, there are no wrong interpretations, just personal responses. It's a rare story indeed that can cover so many bases. Great posts, everyone. ^f^
Thanks Flwrchild. Redemption is a strange thing, no? Sometimes, by a sheer act of losing or dying, we are set free.
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HELP!!!!!----Is anybody out there an English major or student? On this topic, of love and redemption in BBM, it suddenly occurred to me that
there is a poem by an American author, 19th century, I think, that goes right to the point, long before BBM.
Problem is, am not much on poetry and was especially averse to anything romantic. But this one was haunting, just like the collision
between Ennis and Jack. The guy almost describes himself like a spider---"ever weaving, ever spinning" ,casting out threads into the
darkness until "some gossamer thread connects" and his soul is redeemed.
We don't have many famous American poets and it was in a standard school textbook, so SOMEBODY'S gotta remember this one. I mean,
there was only about 100, or even less, poems by Americans that ever made it into textbooks for all students. And I always preferred a beer
and a pool game to any of them. So now that I need it---I can't remember who wrote it.
It does go directly to the loneliness of both Jack and Ennis and their hoping for someone who could be someone to them (Jack, actively,
Ennis, clumsily and wary). It is an overly romantic poem, best fit for those who stumbled out of their first viewing of this film or for those
who carry some scars from the encounter, over time. But it does relate to this topic and if ANYBODY knows, or is, an English major---could
you pass along the author and the title? If I remember correctly, it's a knock-down punch, unexpected, like the film. But---if nobody knows,
no biggie. It's just that it sums up the hunger there.....before redemption, before..."the immortal beloved". referred to by one of those
European composers, Mozart or Beethoven or somebody. Dammit- I skipped that class, too!
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Hmm, is this the one?
A noiseless, patient spider,
I mark'd, where, on a little promontory, it stood, isolated;
Mark'd how, to explore the vacant, vast surrounding,
It launch'd forth filament, filament, filament, out of itself;
Ever unreeling them--ever tirelessly speeding them.
And you, O my Soul, where you stand,
Surrounded, surrounded, in measureless oceans of space,
Ceaselessly musing, venturing, throwing,--seeking the spheres, to
connect them;
Till the bridge you will need, be form'd--till the ductile anchor
hold;
Till the gossamer thread you fling, catch somewhere, O my Soul.
-Walt Whitman
I don't know if it speaks to redemption (and this may not be the poem you were thinking of) but it certainly speaks of their connection, and the image of them each adrift to an extent until they found each other and became each other's anchors for the rest of their lives.
As to redemption, my feeling is this. Ennis spent so many years denying not just Jack, but himself. His calling Lureen, going to Lightning Flat to see Jack's parents, erecting the 'shrine' of the shirts in his closet, and the final declaration "Jack, I swear" shows his redemption through his willingness to acknowledge, finally, what they were to each other and to hold that in his heart. And I think you're right, Thomas. Jack's dying gave Ennis the freedom, through the jolt of the loss and the depth of his grief, to finally be able to recognize that.
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Yep, that's the one. Thank you, Flower Child. Wasn't much on poetry but I knew there was something, deep in the past, that troubled me.
And somehow it related to BBM. Am glad you think so, too. Tony.
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Yep, that's the one. Thank you, Flower Child. Wasn't much on poetry but I knew there was something, deep in the past, that troubled me.
And somehow it related to BBM. Am glad you think so, too. Tony.
The pendant to this poem is about the imprisoned soul released in death:
At the last, tenderly,
From the walls of the powerful, fortress’d house,
From the clasp of the knitted locks—from the keep of the well-closed doors,
Let me be wafted.
Let me glide noiselessly forth;
With the key of softness unlock the locks—with a whisper
Set ope the doors, O soul!
Tenderly! be not impatient!
(Strong is your hold, O mortal flesh!
Strong is your hold, O love!)
This poem is more about transcendence, rather than redemption. But it is through the former that we usually attain the latter. :)
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Well put, Thomas. :)
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Well put, Thomas. :)
Thanks Flwrchild. I love the "spider" poem very much. :)
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That further post from TPE kinda knocked me down as it hit too close to home. We're not supposed to tell our personal stories-uncool-but,
if you will permit, I will pass along how BBM has carried me through a tough and ugly part of my life. If you don't print it, that's OK.
I have a condition called agoraphobia, which means I can't go very far from my home without having severe physical symptoms.
Always knew, rationally, it was from unhealthy grieving over the loss of my parents. So I go to see BBM and-wham-the grieving scenes blew
me away. Emotionally (which is different from rationally) I knew I was clinging to the old family home just like Ennis was cliinging to Jack's
shirt, and I began to have some progress out of the agoraphobia. Little did I know---I was going to need it.
In March of last year, I went out the front door on my exercise walk around the Navy Base in Norfolk. And like Ennis, I come across a
daggum bear. Only this bear, you could call George W. Bush and and I got mauled.
I have a Russian studies background and my friends always kidded me about being on a security risk list, which I always brushed off
as stupid. Even after I brushed up against a spy case here (Glenn Souther) and was interviewed by the FBI, I shrugged it off.
But that day in March, a sailor tracked, circled and confronted me twice. Freaked me out. The more so when very soon, I had tactical
units with walkie-talkies in front of me and behind me, every damned day. Four months later-the explanation. Front page news story-they
had a sailor spy in custody, Ariel Weinmann. Charged with stealing "classified biographies." He had been put up at a motel near my home
and they had let him out, for---exercise walks, as they negotiated with him. The story was, he was angry after coming across evidence
of wrongful spying and was going to take out George Bush and his Iraq war. But the damn fool didn't go to the N.Y.Times-he turned it over
to Russia. And I recognized his photo- that was the sailor who had given me so much trouble. Only thing wrong, the Navy said they had
him 3 days later than the day I met him and may have lied to the courts.
Anyway, I got harrassed senseless-arrest wagons outside my house, and all kinds of intimidation. Under all this pressure, I lost the
old family home. Not so good for an agoraphobic. I lost bad, but I had found another theme in BBM as I endured all this crap---it's OK
to be a loser. I was discredited, Weinmann got a sweetheart deal, and George W. escaped a domestic spying scandal. But life can flare
up pretty rough sometimes.
Am I off-topic? Hell no. If it wasn't for BBM, I never would have survived the loss of my home, and never would have adjusted to how
it's OK to lose. But TPE's post about being freed from the walls around us....sometimes maybe even the walls we love---hit home.
So, back to love and redemption and Ennis and Jack. I'd go a little further and say my love for them was a bridge over very troubled
waters and kept me in one piece. That's my story. Let's go back to them- they are still with us, still healing us and still bringing a
bittersweet beauty into a sometimes very ugly world.
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Well, I guess your post came full circle back on topic. Especially since, as you say, "they are still with us, still healing us and still bringing a bittersweet beauty into a sometimes very ugly world."
So many people have found something healing in BBM, so perhaps in that way, it has brought redemption to us as well. :)
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Ummmmm-sorry for that last post. Thought about it and felt I shoulda stuck to the rule of no personal stuff-goes off-track. Have heard
there's a Monty Python character who gets lizards and newts thrown his way by a wizard but he goes: Oy got bet-tuh! I'll leave it there.
Anyway, was on another site going into the sexuality of Ennis and a question came up which might also be relevant here. Does anyone
think Ennis could have fallen in love with a male other than Jack? Can you picture any other circumstances whereby he would have been
vulnerable emotionally, or was the chemistry so rare it HAD to be Jack? Sounds like a nothing question, but going there kinda-sorta forces
a review, or replay of who they were and what the heck was going on.
Am focusing on Ennis because Jack seemed to be looking for real love from anyone, whereas, with Ennis the love snuck up on him and
I don't think he ever saw it coming. So far, I can't picture Ennis falling for anyone else, which makes it more of a metaphysical collision.
Also, there is a literary theory that where you start from generates, in the text, where you have to go to.
So is it possible, that by beginning with someone who had trouble with loneliness (even with Alma already in the background) there had
to be- an immortal beloved, unique and able to redeem by love (the topic of this thread) because otherwise there would be no story?
OK---forget the literary theory--too deep. Could anybody just weigh in on whether they think, if not Jack, it could have been someone
else? Tony.
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That further post from TPE kinda knocked me down as it hit too close to home. We're not supposed to tell our personal stories-uncool-but,
if you will permit, I will pass along how BBM has carried me through a tough and ugly part of my life. If you don't print it, that's OK.
I have a condition called agoraphobia, which means I can't go very far from my home without having severe physical symptoms.
Always knew, rationally, it was from unhealthy grieving over the loss of my parents. So I go to see BBM and-wham-the grieving scenes blew
me away. Emotionally (which is different from rationally) I knew I was clinging to the old family home just like Ennis was cliinging to Jack's
shirt, and I began to have some progress out of the agoraphobia. Little did I know---I was going to need it.
In March of last year, I went out the front door on my exercise walk around the Navy Base in Norfolk. And like Ennis, I come across a
daggum bear. Only this bear, you could call George W. Bush and and I got mauled.
I have a Russian studies background and my friends always kidded me about being on a security risk list, which I always brushed off
as stupid. Even after I brushed up against a spy case here (Glenn Souther) and was interviewed by the FBI, I shrugged it off.
But that day in March, a sailor tracked, circled and confronted me twice. Freaked me out. The more so when very soon, I had tactical
units with walkie-talkies in front of me and behind me, every damned day. Four months later-the explanation. Front page news story-they
had a sailor spy in custody, Ariel Weinmann. Charged with stealing "classified biographies." He had been put up at a motel near my home
and they had let him out, for---exercise walks, as they negotiated with him. The story was, he was angry after coming across evidence
of wrongful spying and was going to take out George Bush and his Iraq war. But the damn fool didn't go to the N.Y.Times-he turned it over
to Russia. And I recognized his photo- that was the sailor who had given me so much trouble. Only thing wrong, the Navy said they had
him 3 days later than the day I met him and may have lied to the courts.
Anyway, I got harrassed senseless-arrest wagons outside my house, and all kinds of intimidation. Under all this pressure, I lost the
old family home. Not so good for an agoraphobic. I lost bad, but I had found another theme in BBM as I endured all this crap---it's OK
to be a loser. I was discredited, Weinmann got a sweetheart deal, and George W. escaped a domestic spying scandal. But life can flare
up pretty rough sometimes.
Am I off-topic? Hell no. If it wasn't for BBM, I never would have survived the loss of my home, and never would have adjusted to how
it's OK to lose. But TPE's post about being freed from the walls around us....sometimes maybe even the walls we love---hit home.
So, back to love and redemption and Ennis and Jack. I'd go a little further and say my love for them was a bridge over very troubled
waters and kept me in one piece. That's my story. Let's go back to them- they are still with us, still healing us and still bringing a
bittersweet beauty into a sometimes very ugly world.
Tony, thank you for sharing this with us. We can only try to understand what you went through and what you are probably still dealing with.
But I reiterate what FlwrChild pointed out from what you said: "they are still with us, still healing us and still bringing a bittersweet beauty into a sometimes very ugly world."
That beauty is our saving grace.
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"That beauty is our saving grace."
Isn't it, though? :)
Very well put, Thomas. :ghug:
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"That beauty is our saving grace."
Isn't it, though? :)
Very well put, Thomas. :ghug:
Thanks FlwrChild. I think that for most of us here, such beauty has saved us many a time from despair. Hope and consolation -- they are a form of redemption, no? And many a time, such beauty gives us precisely these.
For Ennis, it is the memory of their love that saves him, I think, even in the face of death and bitterness.
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AMEN TO THIS,TPE.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
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Thanks for the two replies this morning. Want, if I can, to cover several areas, the final one exploring the topic in a new way, if you are
willing. First, was not so off-topic as I feared, when a post from TPE triggered my personal story. A huge factor in Ennis refusing to commit
was a hate crime he had seen as a child. There was, and is, some fraction of my troubles, showing some level of hate from the local feds.
But, most people have seen the video of that student in Florida yesterday, tasered after persisting in a question. And last year, locally,
an elderly couple had two marines break into their home, and, using an intelligence school manual, beat them and terrorized them. the
local paper is in bed with the military here, so it was the t.v. channels that began wondering---why that particular couple? Only thing unusual
about them was that--they were prominent in helping the homeless. My point? Brokies, please be careful. The hate crime Ennis saw was central
to the story. But hate crimes have mutated and metastazied into areas we would not have thought. Ask that student in Florida. Please,
without letting it rule your lives, still remember, it never hurts to keep in mind--it can happen to you. We AREN'T past the days of what Ennis saw.
Next, some of the replies have gone into a level of beauty I have not seen before. In you, as people. FlowerChild finds beauty everywhere
and, ever so casually, passes it along. TPE is so thoughtful, it's like he looks, thinks, and then, matches her. And the others are no slouches
either. This theme may have a short run, but it has had some rare insights and many thanks for that.
But finally, nobody is venturing any answer to my question- could Ennis have loved any other male than Jack? The recent use of the phrase
"soul-mate" has been so promiscuous that it's lost its original force. EVERYbody uses it and so the concept is watered down- of two people
meant to be together and with no one else. The arts sometimes propose this and,often, modern music (Moody Blues: "I know you're out there
somewhere"). We all know we can love many people-that's a given. But can it be true that two were meant for each other, sometimes?
Again, could you personally imagine Ennis falling for someone other than Jack? Could he have found redeeming love from someone else?
Seems like it's an uncomfortable question and so--no takers. Or maybe too dull. BabyTammy-I know you're out there somewhere---if no one
else will give it a go, would you, please? Thanks, Tony.
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Dear Tony, sorry so much for my silence!!! I've read all your post but my english is horrible and is so difficult for me express my thoughts in english.....
Sadly, I think that Ennis never would love another man again. It's not only that Jack was the love of his life, but, as I said before, he was ashamed of what he wished, and what he really was: a gay man, or a least, a man in love with another man. He found out through the shirts that Jack loved him so much and that fact changed him so much in so many ways, but, though he have found redeeming love from Jack, if he later had met another man he probably would have done the same things in the same way and he would have been the same ashamed man, 'cause, as I said in my post, the society wasn’t the real problem; Ennis was the real problem ‘cause he was ashamed of being gay.
I think Ennis learned how to love, how to be more tolerant, more understanding, less paranoid. He learned that if he was loving somebody he have to show him that love, and not hiding it to him as he did with Jack. He learned that perhaps he have to say I love you in any time. He learned that it were better if he let people loving him instead of pushing them away (sorry I don't really know how to say that in english..... :( ). But I think that Ennis was still keeping without accept his sexuality; I think that he never would talk about it with somebody. So, for me, as long as Ennis don't accept his real gay condittion he couldn't be in love with another man or at least he couldn't have a fine and normal relationship, 'cause, if you are ashamed of loving somebody 'cause that fact changed you into a person who you are ashamed of being, how could you try to love again?
OMG, I'm so sorry Tony, I can't say it in english; I hope it makes any sense for you.
Be well sweety ^f^
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Tony,
Let me add my thanks for the profound insights and experiences you have shared here.
The easy answer to your question about the possibility of Ennis loving a man other than Jack is "no". And I suspect many will subscribe to the notion that Jack is the only person who could offer Ennis the "opportunity" to be released from the captivity of his fear and shame.
But I feel the question is a bit more complicated, that their meeting on Brokeback Mountain and all it came to mean to both of them was a singular conjunction of time, place and person.
I believe Ennis was at a time of his life at age nineteen, with recently severed ties to his immediate family, such as it was, where he could be open to the potential of friendship/love in a way that he never was again for the duration of the story. Certainly the need for these would be especially acute, and there was still just enough boy left in him to let him dare taking the risk.
And the setting of Brokeback, with contact with the rest of the world being limited to the Friday pick-up of supplies, allowed Ennis (and Jack) a unique sense of freedom and safety. Only such a setting could enable the boldness to step outside the boundaries of his self-imposed isolation: physical, spiritual, emotional...
Given these two "liberating" influences, there remains the question of whether Jack Twist was uniquely qualified to bring Ennnis out of himself, however temporarily. Certainly Jack's capacity to dream the impossible, his gregariousness and comparative lack of fear and inhibition were special and essential qualities. So were his limitations and relative ineptitude, which empowered Ennis's sense of self-confidence, stroking his "need to be needed".
But I guess what I'm saying here is that given the depth of Ennis's neediness-as described by Proulx-his youth, and the sublime qualities of the setting, I think it is just possible that some other man, whose qualities and needs complemented Ennis's own, might have been able to bridge the gulf enforcing Ennis's loneliness. But I doubt it would have been possible in his regular world, and by the time he was married to Alma, the window of opportunity would be firmly closed. And even within the conjunction of time and place on BBM, it would have taken a rare and highly perceptive man to have accomplished what Jack was able to do.
In the words of "The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy": Impossible? No. Just very, very improbable.
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Tony,
Let me add my thanks for the profound insights and experiences you have shared here.
The easy answer to your question about the possibility of Ennis loving a man other than Jack is "no". And I suspect many will subscribe to the notion that Jack is the only person who could offer Ennis the "opportunity" to be released from the captivity of his fear and shame.
But I feel the question is a bit more complicated, that their meeting on Brokeback Mountain and all it came to mean to both of them was a singular conjunction of time, place and person.
I believe Ennis was at a time of his life at age nineteen, with recently severed ties to his immediate family, such as it was, where he could be open to the potential of friendship/love in a way that he never was again for the duration of the story. Certainly the need for these would be especially acute, and there was still just enough boy left in him to let him dare taking the risk.
And the setting of Brokeback, with contact with the rest of the world being limited to the Friday pick-up of supplies, allowed Ennis (and Jack) a unique sense of freedom and safety. Only such a setting could enable the boldness to step outside the boundaries of his self-imposed isolation: physical, spiritual, emotional...
Given these two "liberating" influences, there remains the question of whether Jack Twist was uniquely qualified to bring Ennnis out of himself, however temporarily. Certainly Jack's capacity to dream the impossible, his gregariousness and comparative lack of fear and inhibition were special and essential qualities. So were his limitations and relative ineptitude, which empowered Ennis's sense of self-confidence, stroking his "need to be needed".
But I guess what I'm saying here is that given the depth of Ennis's neediness-as described by Proulx-his youth, and the sublime qualities of the setting, I think it is just possible that some other man, whose qualities and needs complemented Ennis's own, might have been able to bridge the gulf enforcing Ennis's loneliness. But I doubt it would have been possible in his regular world, and by the time he was married to Alma, the window of opportunity would be firmly closed. And even within the conjunction of time and place on BBM, it would have taken a rare and highly perceptive man to have accomplished what Jack was able to do.
In the words of "The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy": Impossible? No. Just very, very improbable.
Oh friend, what a beautiful and powerful post!!! Thank you so much for that ^f^ I really agree with you!!!
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proulxfan, I couldn't have said it any better. You have absolutely hit the nail on the head as to the unique set of circumstances that made their relationship possible. I would be inclined to add, though, that I do think Jack and Ennis were, in some way, meant to be together. Of course, keep in mind I am a hopeless romantic. ::) But everything was just so perfectly aligned to allow for this relationship to bloom there on that mountain - why not the who as well as the time, place, etc?
In this past year and a half, I have really embraced the idea of meant-to-be relationships, and a certain sense of everything falling together in a specific way for a reason.
Aside from that, though, I do think that it is unlikely, given his situation, that Ennis would have been open to the idea of starting anything with another man, for the reasons you pointed out.
And Tony, I don't know if this completely addresses your question, but there is a thread entitled If Ennis never met Jack and it can be accessed here:
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=11385.0 (http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=11385.0)
I hope I haven't gone horribly off topic. ???
And I hope that helps. :)
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In the words of "The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy": Impossible? No. Just very, very improbable.
proulxfan, I echo FlwrChild here: you argued this very well.
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Thanks, everybody!!! Baby Tammy, I KNEW you were out there, somewhere, somewhere..(oops, that's the Moody Blues song, again-sorry).
Proulxfan thought it through and may have given the definitive answer--it was good. I followed the thread mentioned by FlowerChild and there
ran into TPE saying "But Ennis must have been a tough nut to crack." suggesting another love was unlikely and Jackster came through, if I
read it right, just as strong if not stronger.
But everyone takes it as a given, or seems to, that Ennis was repressed gay and THEN suggest---only Jack could have gotten through.
Have been wrestling with this all along--the concept of Ennis as repressed gay, and have always felt it was not absolutely established. Am not
alone in this because some diddly poll on one site showed about 25% saying he was straight, not bi or gay. Many cultures allow for deep
love between straight men with no sex involved, but that begs the question--what if THAT type of love then goes into sex because one
of the two (Jack, in this case), is sensual, maybe bi, and forces the issue. What happens then? Aarrgh!
Can't settle that here but, in the film, an overlooked scene, ambiguous, dammit, could provide evidence on either side. Remember when
they meet outside the trailer, for the first time? Jack does seem to be breaking the code by being sensual, ever so slightly, in his first look
at Ennis. And Ennis almost blushing, shifts his feet and looks this way and that way, avoiding eye contact. To which Jack responds with
a hard look of resentment and then that slinky pose against his truck (by the way,--tried that pose, myself, on the railing at a fast food
place and got some interest from--women. It IS provocative and daring). But, dammit, Heath and Jake played it so it could have been
gaydar--rejected, or...just Ennis noticing the code of the west being broken. It's an under-appreciated scene and supports both sides.
Dunno-am still saying there's room for Ennis,at least, to have been straight but never ratified by anyone for himself, gender aside.
But I can't picture him EVER having sex with any other male but Jack, even after having been de-sensitized to same-sex activity, so I very
much think the trump card was love and there only possible, again, with Jack Twist. Even so, still want to hear anything to the contrary,
as that is the way to learn. And, in this case, to wander back to the body language of their first encounter, which I had forgotten.
Thanks, FlowerChild, and, of course, all of you. Hmmm. Haven't tried that slink for a year----Nah, probably lost the groove. Tony.
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OT: hello Tony.
You may find this thread interesting:
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=832.msg7366#msg7366
and
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=5981.msg214405#msg214405
:)
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Thanks for the threads, TPE, and I don't think anything is off-topic that comes back to the theme, eventually. It is important, for gays,
that BBM be a breakthrough movie about gay love, repressed sexuality, finding yourself, and so on, so there is that tilt, easily supported, that
Ennis was repressed gay, end of story. But enough people consider it possible he was straight to advance the love story into another category-
love conquers all, even sexual orientation, that this theory shouldn't cause hurt to gays as BBM, in that advanced category would always still
bring understanding and acceptance.
Anybody remember the breakthrough t.v. show for blacks? "Julia". Caused a lot of quacking. Broke through the barriers. And has vanished.
Part of what could prevent that fate for BBM would be never squashing whatever possibilities are there that the film spoke to HUMAN
liberation and that is undermined by unanimously tagging Ennis as repressed gay. Which, luckily, isn't going to happen. I think if gays love
this movie they should set it free, from narrower definitions. It will always be there as a force for toleration of same-gender love but could
also go on, as it should, haunting later generations of viewers. Heath Ledger said he hoped the movie raised more questions than it
answered. It has--and am glad am not alone in one of those questions-Ennis' sexuality, not being so easily settled as many would like.
Of course, my own prejudice is visible on this, too, and admit it. The issue of Ratification and redemption are important to me. By
ratification I mean accepting a person, and in several dimensions. We are first human, then male or female, and then sexually oriented.
Alma ratified Ennis and loved him as her husband, but never broke out of that one dimension. Jack ratified him as a human, a male, and as
a lover-partner---all three dimensions. Maybe if we ratified each other as humans first we would not be so abusive to each other as
male vs. female, straight vs. gay, and so on. In the Old Testament, Jacob demanded acknowledgment from a stranger or he would fight.
The text is mysterious as the stranger is then bumped up to an angel, and then to God. Tiring of wrestling with Jacob, the stranger, angel...
then God, says- from here you will be called Isra-el, he who has wrestled with God. Ratification, acknowledgment, then came to redemption.
I may get the annual forum award for being the most pedantic and obtuse on any site, but am back to the theme----the love ratified
Ennis and redeemed him. If I get the most votes, do I get a little statue? Wouldn't be insulted--I know I get carried away on this stuff
and can get boring. Thanks again for the threads. Tony.
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Thanks for the threads, TPE, and I don't think anything is off-topic that comes back to the theme, eventually. It is important, for gays,
that BBM be a breakthrough movie about gay love, repressed sexuality, finding yourself, and so on, so there is that tilt, easily supported, that
Ennis was repressed gay, end of story. But enough people consider it possible he was straight to advance the love story into another category-
love conquers all, even sexual orientation, that this theory shouldn't cause hurt to gays as BBM, in that advanced category would always still
bring understanding and acceptance.
Anybody remember the breakthrough t.v. show for blacks? "Julia". Caused a lot of quacking. Broke through the barriers. And has vanished.
Part of what could prevent that fate for BBM would be never squashing whatever possibilities are there that the film spoke to HUMAN
liberation and that is undermined by unanimously tagging Ennis as repressed gay. Which, luckily, isn't going to happen. I think if gays love
this movie they should set it free, from narrower definitions. It will always be there as a force for toleration of same-gender love but could
also go on, as it should, haunting later generations of viewers. Heath Ledger said he hoped the movie raised more questions than it
answered. It has--and am glad am not alone in one of those questions-Ennis' sexuality, not being so easily settled as many would like.
Of course, my own prejudice is visible on this, too, and admit it. The issue of Ratification and redemption are important to me. By
ratification I mean accepting a person, and in several dimensions. We are first human, then male or female, and then sexually oriented.
Alma ratified Ennis and loved him as her husband, but never broke out of that one dimension. Jack ratified him as a human, a male, and as
a lover-partner---all three dimensions. Maybe if we ratified each other as humans first we would not be so abusive to each other as
male vs. female, straight vs. gay, and so on. In the Old Testament, Jacob demanded acknowledgment from a stranger or he would fight.
The text is mysterious as the stranger is then bumped up to an angel, and then to God. Tiring of wrestling with Jacob, the stranger, angel...
then God, says- from here you will be called Isra-el, he who has wrestled with God. Ratification, acknowledgment, then came to redemption.
I may get the annual forum award for being the most pedantic and obtuse on any site, but am back to the theme----the love ratified
Ennis and redeemed him. If I get the most votes, do I get a little statue? Wouldn't be insulted--I know I get carried away on this stuff
and can get boring. Thanks again for the threads. Tony.
I agree with you Tony!!! Very nice post!! Thank you so much for that ^f^
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I may get the annual forum award for being the most pedantic and obtuse on any site, but am back to the theme----the love ratified Ennis and redeemed him.
Not at all. It is, after all, the story of Ennis's loss and (by way of that loss) his redemption. It may not feel this way to many viewers of the film, but I think the movie does bring to the fore the idea of redemption in a way that the short story couldn't. The latter was certainly much more bleak about Ennis's future prospects. This is I think where the movie differed fundamentally from the short story.
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I think Ennis,in a religious point of view and as we say here:-"In his sin he had the penitence"...IMO.
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Thanks, BabyTammy-you highlighted exactly where I wanted to go-we are human first. And tpe ,that was something I had missed,
having just recently read the SS, and you may have nailed down in only a few words, the difference between the endings. No-you did
find it-no maybes.
Anyway, am going out on a limb and wondering if there are any themes in another work that influenced the screenwriters. knowingly
or unknowingly, and that would be (and this is a leap)--"Brideshead Revisited". The PBS series took two groups by storm- middle-class
Americans, agog at the class structure and the palaces, etc, in Great Britain, but also knocked gays a little loopy as a gay character
was portrayed sympathetically. In fact, this set off the teddy bear fad of the '80's for gays.
Here again, a central character was sexually dubious--the hero and, did he have sex with the gay guy, was he bi, or what?
Yet, here again, in the book, the theme was----redemption. Thankfully, on two levels. First level , the agnostic hero stumbles across
this English Catholic branch of the nobility and is amused and troubled by their stubborn faith, yet in the lyrical ending, after all the
sex scandals, and the destruction of war, he finds a redeeming faith. Not relevant here.
Here, the lonely hero, was ALSO redeemed by the interaction with that family and learning to love them (his own father did not love
him). The theme of interaction and love being redeeming (which is no threat to denominational formulas, or should not be).
Gosh, it is annoying that a piece of art that we love could have been influenced, if only vaguely, by a previous work. But there are
parallels, even in the forlorn endings. A tough guy, shattered after finding and losing love, but still altered by that love enough to survive.
Anyway, even if the one did not influence the other, kind of curious that the theme and ending would be the same. Maybe we needed
BBM to shake us out of drifting into cynicism and finding no meaning or goodness in our own lives or those of others.
tpe, the screenwriters DID change Annie's Ennis, troubled by dreams and perhaps headed towards madness, into OUR Ennis, who still
has a chance.....maybe. I still want the annual forum award for taking too long to get an idea across. I'll make the doggone statue myself--
Tony.
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Shouldn't do 2 posts in a row, but came across something in another forum that may be of interest. Heath Ledger was doing an interview,
on 2/02/06 with somebody named Enrique Allero and it seemed to be the Observer, whatever that is. So the subject came up that Jake
Gyllenhaal had said the two characters were not gay. Heath goes--it's complex, but he felt it was two souls colliding and their love
transcended sexual orientation, and he thought that was what Jake meant.
So, we have the SS, which tilts heavily towards repressed gay, we have the screenplay, which develops other possibilities, and then
we have the actors interpretations of how they would develop the characters. The final BBM, then, was a combination of all three, plus,
of course, what we ourselves bring to the viewing. That's enough for me. All I ever wanted was no one having the final say, and, boy,
do we got that! That leaves us with a tension that will make the film more enduring.
Interesting that Heath would use words seen here, like "transcending". I believe tpe went there, too. At any rate, we may have exhausted
the topic as we do all seem to see some form of redemption for Ennis in that love that left him quiet and limping through his later years,
but somehow made whole, by having something real to cling to, and to believe. Tony.
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Shouldn't do 2 posts in a row, but came across something in another forum that may be of interest. Heath Ledger was doing an interview,
on 2/02/06 with somebody named Enrique Allero and it seemed to be the Observer, whatever that is. So the subject came up that Jake
Gyllenhaal had said the two characters were not gay. Heath goes--it's complex, but he felt it was two souls colliding and their love
transcended sexual orientation, and he thought that was what Jake meant.
So, we have the SS, which tilts heavily towards repressed gay, we have the screenplay, which develops other possibilities, and then
we have the actors interpretations of how they would develop the characters. The final BBM, then, was a combination of all three, plus,
of course, what we ourselves bring to the viewing. That's enough for me. All I ever wanted was no one having the final say, and, boy,
do we got that! That leaves us with a tension that will make the film more enduring.
Interesting that Heath would use words seen here, like "transcending". I believe tpe went there, too. At any rate, we may have exhausted
the topic as we do all seem to see some form of redemption for Ennis in that love that left him quiet and limping through his later years,
but somehow made whole, by having something real to cling to, and to believe. Tony.
Hello Tony. Thanks, yes, I am also familiar with this article, and the whole controversy surrounding Jake's comment. Thank you fro bringing it back here into focus!
I don't think we have really exhausted this topic. One could also link this to more mythical connotations. Very little has been said, IMO, about the redemptive qualities in the story -- of how the tragedy purges Ennis and us of doubt, and how it lifts us up even is sorrow.
I think there is more to this than meets the eye.
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We aren't supposed to get personal on these sites and yet have already done that because of something tpe said that got me to break
that social rule. Dammit, am going to do it again, even though it invades my privacy on sexual matters, but have to go there to bring up
yet again, loneliness, love, and redemption, for I did once meet someone as lonely as Ennis and was, myself somehow redeemed. Please
forgive the long post and also that I told the same story in another forum.
Years ago, ran with a wild crowd from our local taverns near the Norfolk port. We were, I guess, the "in" crowd, long-haired but tolerant
rednecks and really brazen and good-looking women. No wonder, then, that the merchant seamen would invite us on their ships for free
beer and all-night partys. One night, we were on a British ship, and they played "The Stripper" and the gals lured me up onto the bar to do
a partial strip. Anyway, one of the Brits came up to me furtively and offered himself for my, uh, relief, but said to wait and then followthe
directions to his cabin. I was a sexual radical and was up for it.
So, waited, then stumbled to his cabin, drunk as a skunk. And there he was, groggy, stripped down to his shorts ,face down--blond hair,
perfect body and, as I climbed on, he said--it was OK, he knew we were on the ship, and he was so lonely, I could do whatever I wanted
if only I would stay and talk to him as no one on the ship ever talked to him. I WAS IN THE WRONG CABIN!!!!!!!
I asked him if he had any experience with that and he said no, so when I said I'd just be company he was like a sweet child, so happy to
have a friend and he came alive and fixed us both coffee. I asked why no one talked to him and he said something about being "country"
Years later I was to find out about the absurd prejudice the Brits have against Saxons, who are considered the equivalent of hillbillies.
He was a farm lad sent to sea to send money home to his family. He told of a girl he hoped to marry, if she would have him, and of
his family and village which he sorely missed. And he showed me his prized possession, a battered stereo and told of his favorite group,
the Moody Blues. Was always a jerk when younger and drinking but somehow I knew I had stumbled across unusual physical beauty and
spiritual innocence in that cabin and was always glad he did not have to trade his innocence to ease that terrible loneliness. I was his friend,
for several hours.
I left him looking through his porthole at the dawn breaking over the harbor, lost in his dream world of the village back home and listening
to the Moody Blues (who then became my favorite group). Told my girlfriend what had happened---she knocked me down and my arm was
in a sling for weeks.
Have been haunted by this all my life, for I never saw a human so lonely as that farm lad sent to sea. I loved him. And, in a way, he
redeemed me, insofar as being less of a jerk and more aware of the hurts in others.
Off topic? Hell, no. BBM has much there of love, loneliness and redemption in being something to each other. Foolish for going personal?
Maybe. You would have loved him, too, I think, as you have broken through to loving Ennis and Jack. If I am getting over-the-top, nothing
new there---I still take risks in hoping people will be better to each other and I have loved BBM for taking risks.
The worst you can do is send me to the Brokie Inquisition (Dominican monks in stylish robes with fluffy whips) to break me of my posting
habits. Loneliness is a terrible thing. That poor farm boy was Ennis, in so many ways. Tony.
Very beautiful Tony. Have you ever thought that perhaps you were also a kind of redemption to him? Redemption can work both ways.
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Very beautiful Tony. Have you ever thought that perhaps you were also a kind of redemption to him? Redemption can work both ways.
tpe is right, Tony. And sometimes we're right where we're supposed to be, in order for that to happen.
Whoever he is, wherever he is, he holds a place in my heart now, as do you. And I hope for the very best for both of you. ^f^
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I caught up with some of the discussion in the other threads, about the redemptive nature of Jack's relationship with Ennis, and their "real" sexuality.
I don't know if this is appropriate for a newbie to start a new thread, and if I am being too presumptions, I trust this will be deleted.
Does anyone else think that Ennis and Jack were made for each other, in the sense they they complete each other? To use the cliche that is now so popular.
Ennis was alone, in fact, very lonely as a child, as told in his fireside chat with Jack, and later Elma's bedroom talk to convince Ennis to move to Riverton. Jack was rebellious and a bit of a hell-raiser all his life, until he became a father. Ennis was the paragon of the self-reliant dependable skillful cowboy, knowledgeable in and out of the saddle. Jack was the showy rodeo cowboy fast talking with lots of ideas and a sense of fun. The two were the Ying and Yang, the black hat/white hat complements that completes each other.
Their summer together in Brokeback Mountain was destiny's way of bringing two souls together. Their discovering each other and falling in love was the highest expression of the human experience. Their sexuality was a result of Jack's seduction, perhaps sensing Ennis' need for love. Their SNIT showed how hungry Ennis was for affection and Jack willingness, eagerness to fulfill that need.
If sex never entered into their relationship, the two would have ended the summer as best friends, and perhaps even working together in Jack's parents' ranch. However, the summer ended early when they were caught horsing around. Their relationship was never given the chance to blossom and end properly. That was the beginning of the dark cloud that turned into a tragic storm.
Should they have been lovers instead of best friends? Are soul-mates always sexual partners?
Why should sex be so important in a relationship? Don't get me wrong. I think sex is wonderful, but I am asking if sex is appropriate for Ennis and Jack. What if they never had their FNIT and SNIT? Would they have been best friends for life, godfathers to each others' children, and spending their vacations together, really fishing and hunting?
Since Ennis was already engaged to Elma, and Jack knew this, was it appropriate for Ennis to break off their engagement after Brokeback? The tragedy became amplified when a third then fourth person got entangled in the confused web of emotions that Ennis tried to untangle. If there was NOT social oppression, he and Jack would surely have lived together, growing old together, after the sex.
Was the alcohol the reason for their inevitable sex scene?
I am haunted by the scene when Ennis was starring into a table of empty beer bottles, before Cassie asked him to dance. He adopted the drinking habits of Jack, but continued with his own brooding character, like when he sat on the grassy slope, watching Jack pack, at the early end to the summer. I am sure he was thinking of a warm night of hot sex with Jack during the cold blizzard the night before on the mountain. That was cut short, and no way of being fulfilled. No wonder he got into a fight with Jack when he was lassooed. The rope was a masterful stroke as a metaphor of the unbreakable bond between the two, after their summer together, and especially after the sex.
I can understand why so many others want to amplify the sex scenes, but I think the sexual relationship complicated their bond of friendship.
I think both Ennis and Jack are like many men: they are, to differing degree, bisexual in nature, but found in each other the soul-mate that is so rare and precious. The isolation of Brokeback Mountain allowed their friendship to gain a sexual dimension that would never be possible otherwise. This was both the blessing and the curse because as Jack said in their last meeting, "everything was built on Brokeback" and they could not build a life together, as real soul-mates should have been doing, growing old together.
In today's tolerant society, their friendship can be intensified with the sexual dimension, and with honesty and integrity, they can declare their love for each other, and grow old together.
Brokeback Mountain is our society's redemption for all the oppression and hatred in the past.
Just a bit of my thoughts from reading some of the other discussions in the forum.
Thanks, by the way, to all the administrators and moderators and everyone who contributes to this forum! :^^)
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Lancecowboy
You laid out a very beautiful piece here cowboy, tho’ it covers a lot of territory and subjects that are covered in many other threads. But I don’t recall seeing the question that I think you’re asking here – should they have had sex? Would things have worked out better if that particular bond had not been made, if that bridge had not been crossed?
Maybe, but I’d have to go to the SS here. I think the emotional connection made via the sex they shared was something that they didn’t get in their “everyday” lives. When Ennis says in the SS:
“I mean, here we both got wives and kids, right? I like doin' it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin' like this.”
I believe he’s experienced somethin’ here that he hasn’t been used to with Alma. The sex and the sexual encounter(s) between them take them (both of them) to a place they are unable to go otherwise. It isn’t the singular FNIT explosive engagement but the repeated, passionate SNIT type engagements that bring them back together and keep bringing them back together. IMO they need this, they crave this passion with another human (the touching, kissing, penetration, release, everything). They don’t (can't) get this anywhere else and this link is what ties Jack and Ennis together for life. Just bein’ ''friends" I don’t think would have been enough for either of these passionate boys/men to maintain this relationship, just MHO.
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Lancecowboy-thanks for bringing up the subject of whether sex is essential to a love. Was headed there, in my own thread, when
FlowerChild said something about being where you are supposed to be and I felt she was too close to the truth, and so, broke off.
She had prompted another memory from my past which stung, but is relevant to your theme in some ways. I hope this isn't another
case of---wheee! , Tony's off his medication---AGAIN!!!!!
Again, a story of years ago. Some sailor friends had asked would I let one of their friends sleep on my couch-he had a sleep disorder,
was being kicked out of the Navy, and it would only be a few weeks. Since I was out half the night, anyway, at parties-said it was OK.
Sleep disorder? The guy was in hell itself. Had been on the riverboats in Vietnam where death was always moments away, around the
corner of a lazy river. Delayed Stress Syndrome hadn't been figured out yet so he had zero sympathy from the Navy as he fought against
going to sleep, for fear of nightmares and stayed awake for up to 3 days before collapsing into sleep, only to wake everybody up with
blood-curdling screams.
So my friends dumped him on me. As a closet heterosexual, with an appreciation of males, noticed he was unusually good-looking.
Try Dr. McDreamy, a little more naturally muscular and a virile, handsome face. Yet broken. Never saw much of him the first week as was
never there, but apparently---he finally got---blessed sleep, at night, before leaving to muster on the base. But he moved to my bed
(which I wasn't using) and the second time, coming home drunk, I climbed over him to also sleep in my own bed.
He woke,groggy, and, in a twin bed, we were---too close. Hmmm. I may have contibuted to that. But he did not move away but said
he knew about me and--it was OK, if that was the cost of being there, the only place of rest he could find. Ve-e-e-ry tempting as he
was the type, had he not been in mental agony, that would have caught the eye of any person, male or female.
When I said it was OK, no need, he broke down so bad, weeping, and choked out the words-thank-you--and, trusting me, clung to me
as if he were sinking and I was all there was to hold on to. No sex. Just---a need to have someone understand the hell of war still with
him, and the need to believe someone gave a damn. He fell into a deep sleep, no screams, but that arm over my chest kept me pinned
down, all night.
Lancecowboy, there was love there that night, without sex. You are right on target. We were best buddies and anything sexual
would have been, in this one case, less, not more. I do not know how relevent this is to your wondering if Ennis and Jack could have
been just best buddies. I don't think so, because in that case, ratification, crossing the line, was needed. They had, I think, to break
rules to prove something was really there, which they both needed, a rare love out of nowhere. The opposite was true with the tormented
war vet- no sex meant he was valued and accepted as he was-a man in very deep trouble, abandoned by the world.
It was this memory that FlowerChild triggered when she said sometimes we are meant to be at a certain place at a certain time.
Ok--won't go off my medication again. It's just---you guys go places and say things that cause me to go all goofy.
Minus sexuality is your proposed formula for exploration. It's a worthy topic. Let's see what the other Brokies think. Myself, I remember
where no sex brought beauty and redemption, but on BBM, I think the absence of sex would have left a shallowness and superficiality
that could not have redeemed. Am back on my medication. Haven't gnawed on the rug for an hour. No more long posts. Tony.
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Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!
You both elaborated beautifully on my confused attempt to start the thread.
Thank you, Tony, especially, for sharing your personal memories. I, too, have friends/buddies who were like Ennis+Jack-sexuality and the bond was indescribable. Your words always capture what I would have said. And yes, I agree with you both that sex was a part of their relationship that binded them stronger, and made their love more passionate. Yet, whenever they get together, it wasn't just for the sex. They spent the day sharing the moment, riding the mountain that they love, talking by the fire - like their first time when Ennis "spoke more words than in a year". I think, at that point, as someone else pointed out, Jack already had feelings for Ennis (from his heavy breathing and furtive glances), but Ennis was just pure and simple happy, probably for the first time in his life - smiling for the first time in the movie.
I love the scene when Ennis was waiting for Jack to show up for the first time, and he keeps flicking the lighter open and close, remembering that first time he and Jack had a drink together in the bar, and he borrowed Jack's lighter, after revealing a bit of himself.
I guess I wanted to ask the question that no one else seem to be asking, perhaps everyone else knows the answer already: do straight men have this kind of bond, or straight women, or straight couples? If this kind of bond is unique to soul-mates, who inevitably become sexual partners, then is it a wonder that Ennis never tried another relationship, not even the amazing Cassie, or that Jack was never satisfied, not even with Mexico or Randall.
It may be better to have loved and lost, then never to have loved at all.
But what if the price is to never love again?
I guess my question was, if Ennis and Jack had stayed best friends without sex, and their relationship was not as intense or passionate as it had been, would their lives be better?
Perhaps what Jack said to Ennis, "You and Elma, you called that a life?" is the answer to their sexuality, their destiny. Either reach for the height of passion, or settle for platonic mediocrity.
Sorry...if my rambling doesn't make much sense. I guess I am still confused about the movie, and will just have to get the short story, and the script. I hear the new book has both.
Thanks again everyone, for this opportunity to put my thoughts on paper, hmm, screen.
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