Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: aintfoolin on Oct 12, 2007, 07:16 PM
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Let's face it. These guys could have used a friend. A confidant, advisor. This thread is inspired by L. Cowboy who said how REAL these two characters were to him. I think he said what most of us feel. They are real in the sense that they touched us so deeply. We are passionate about what they did or did'nt do. They were not great communicators....but we are. No, we're not shrinks, but we play them on the forum. Just think of them as the *close friends* we feel they are.
Picture the scenario: The status quo isn't working. Your riding along in your car, your cell rings, it is your friend Jack or Ennis and they have a serious problem. They're at an impass, in need of solid, honest advise. We know the inside and out of it. Jack asks, " friend, how do I convince him to commit" pours his heart out to you, his friend and advisor. You know his story. What would you tell him? What is he doing wrong right? What is he doing right?
And Ennis, he's tells you he's met some one he has feelings for and maybe, just may be in love with. coming to you for advise. You know Ennis, so of course you're shocked that it's man. But it is a man, it's Jack. He needs help coming to terms with his feelings. What is he doing wrong and what is he doing right? What would YOU advise? Hurry, their desperate! and you have the remedy, but please they're putting their lives in your hands! So be gentle but honest. Can we talk? Please advise. It's all fantasy and speculation, but it's fun to think there may have been a Wedding on Brokeback Mountain after all, thanks to your advise.
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Dear aintfoolin-it does seem sad, our heroes had no close friends. Would say to Jack--Ennis ain't gonna change his location-you got to
leave your wife and move to near Ennis (not too close, just near enough). Would say to Ennis----oh, wow....I dunno. I'd try to BE a friend
to Ennis, let him know the love is rightful, but past that, what? For once am at a loss for words.
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Sorry, I don't want to rain on your parade but what you ask is so far away from the original characters and the short story, I can't figure out any answer. In Wyoming, in 1963, if not now still... I dont think Ennis and Jack ever had close enough friends to discuss this kind of matter, guys don't talk about this and it's still a fact now with many guys.
BTW, sorry if I'm conservative about the characters and the story but I"ll stick to the original, it's 1963, cowboys and Wyoming. ;)
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This could be difficult because jack is waiting and ennis isnt budging.
I would say to jack to be patient but then again how long has he been waiting for ennis i would tell jack to give ennis some space and wait for as long as he could then if its still a no go jack could suggest he moves closer to ennis but not live together. but in the end jack needs a time limit and he would have to give ennis an ultimation.
First and fourmost i would say to ennis you havto do what you want to do not what other people think you should do. you are obviously not happy with your present situation and you wont be happy for the rest of your live if you dont change things now. no its not going to be easy for you but it could be harder on you if you dont change things And i would suggest to ennis the same as jack that jack moves closer but not live together that would be a start for them and they are not actually living together wich is ennis,s fear
two guys living together no way.
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Sorry, I don't want to rain on your parade but what you ask is so far away from the original characters and the short story, I can't figure out any answer. In Wyoming, in 1963, if not now still... I dont think Ennis and Jack ever had close enough friends to discuss this kind of matter, guys don't talk about this and it's still a fact now with many guys.
BTW, sorry if I'm conservative about the characters and the story but I"ll stick to the original, it's 1963, cowboys and Wyoming. ;)
Wether 1963 Wyoming, or men today in relationships may not talk about it , but does'nt mean they DON"T want to. I personally know of some that do. Does'nt mean that they don't wish they could, with someone who will not judge them or subjec them to the ridicule that Ennis especially feared.. I feel that part of the reason they don't talk about it is because they did'nt or don't have that caring friend that they can trust. Ennis , when Jack gained his trust spoke " more words than he had in a year" , so it's not like he did'nt wnat to open up, he just needed a friend to open up to. But concerning his "battle within" , perhaps an outside person who could see the picture a bit more clearly can go a long way towards relieving some of the anxiety. No one is advocating a pride parade just yet, just a friendly ear. Some one who is patient and will just listen.
Many men and women pay thousands of dollars to sit in some doctor's office hoping for a word of acceptance ,when if only they had that person in their lives who understands them and give them encouragement to be themselves. Not saying we have all the anwers but I think we Brokies here on these threads fit that bill very nicely. We loved and understood them.
Jack and Ennis were both drifting through life just "standing it" as many do, but knowing damn well there was a better idea to this. Some have suggested Jack move closer but not right under Ennis's nose . I've suggested this myself before on another thread. It's a comprimise on Jack's part , but this all or nothing attitude was getting him where?Yeah, yeah it's one more time Jack is having to *give in* and "give up" one more notch of his dream from the way he first envisioned it, but if he wants Ennis ,this suggestion or piece of advice would be something for him to consider.
I'm sure without taking anything away from the film, as we watched it everyone saw things about how they handled this that they agreed or diagreed with. It's with this in mind did I start this thread. Times change imo ,people don't, and any advice they could have gotten then is the same advice to take to heart even today. Even kings and queens have confidants, someone they trust. Why not Ennis and Jack? My 2 cents. :t)
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I don't think Ennis would ever even want to talk about, he'd never trust anyone that much. And if he did, his feelings for Jack were too personal, special, deep to share with someone else, at least as we saw them, maybe if they'd been able to have moved on, sweet life, if Jack had lived... Actually I don't think Jack would either. It was what it was, he let be. Surely they had not grown up learning to talk to others, both lonely, seems they were all to each other and if they could have been together that would have been a dream come true, for anyone to have their best friend, partner, lover all in the same person.
If I could be a guardian angel, able to talk to their heads, I'd ask Ennis to consider, in his choice of words, life, quantify vs. quality. I'd kick his brain around and remind him that that is the way it felt to Jack, and most of all, remind him that he is really a brave man and Jack is that thing who comes over him. And as to Jack, he should that it would take a lot more than Ennis could ever dream to make Ennis give up Jack. And yell, get out of Texas!
jessi
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Several elements here IMO. First, while you might if you had a friend talk to him/her in general terms but might not want to discuss specifics. I don't think Ennis's character is such that he would ever discuss private matters with anyone.
Then there's the question of the period at which it's set and the society. All this touchy-feely stuff was less common then, specially in unsophisticated places; I don't think either Ennis or Jack would be very likely to confide in people in that place at that time.
Then there's the idea of giving advice; ironically we had two gay friends who came out to us, one in 1968 and one in the early 70s. While we listened, in neither case would either of us have given them advice. Neither asked for it and each eventually found their own path.
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Well, I agree with everyone that Ennis, at the very least, would never talk about it with anyone. Heck, he couldn't even bring himself to talk about it with Jack!
But I look at this topic as more of an AU kind of question. If you were in a position of close friendship and you could offer them (or one of them ) advice, what would it be? Did I get that right, aintfoolin? In that case, I find it a fascinating question. I'm not quite sure what I'd tell either of them, though. :s) Will have to give that some thought.
I do find it interesting that so many people would suggest Jack move closer to Ennis, though. Never mind the fact that, once again, that puts the burden of compromising for the relationship on his shoulders. There are practical reasons such a solution wouldn't make sense. First, he has a son. If he can't actually be with Ennis, why should he leave his son just on the off chance that proximity might at some point in the future help make Ennis come around? And second, Jack is able to drive up and make the meets with Ennis, on Ennis's work schedule precisely because of his personal situation. If he left to move closer to Ennis, there is nothing to say that he could find a job that would allow for them to spend time together at all. So all he would really accomplish is living closer to Ennis, without any guarantee that it would allow for more contact or that it would have any impact on Ennis's feelings about making a life together.
I like what jessi said about wanting to be a guardian angel to them. I guess what I would try most to convey to each of them is that what your heart draws you to is so much more important than anything outside of that. And that finding someone you want to be with in this world who wants to be with you is the best that anyone can hope for, whatever the risks. Too bad Ennis couldn't have a conversation with either Earl or Rich; maybe they could have shown him that some things are worth risking everything for (assuming either of them felt that way).
But what practical advice I would give them? ??? Hmm, I'll have to think about it. Tough case.
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Guess I have to follow what some others have said - given the time and location, neither would have had much of a chance to explore the option of getting advice - you cannot forget that this was a time of more stoicism than now - a person was expected to deal with his/her problems on their own - going to a friend admiiting that you needed advice of a personal nature was a no-no. "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it." And love the staement from welshwitch that this touchy-feely stuff was less common . Practically, there would have been no "gay" bar, no gay organizations, no mental health organizations to turn to for them to deal with their emotions/attitudes.
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When I think Jack needed to get out of Texas his boy was no longer a child. His marriage no longer real. His pain overwhelming. I'm not thinking of the move so much as being closer to Ennis as closer to himself, where his heart was, where maybe he could breathe better.
And yeah, Ennis knows what happened to Earl and Rich, unspeakable, understatement, but did Ennis ever wonder why they took such a chance, they had to know the danger. Thank you for pointing that out, if only Ennis could have felt beyond their horror to those days and nights, all those days and nights they did have. Excuse me, I'm out of tissues.
jessi
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I do think that Ennis would not have sought out such advice, but I will assume for agrument's sake that he would.
What to advise?
For Ennis, I think that I would have advised a move. I can't help but feel that Ennis would have thrive better under a different sky. I suspect that he would never consider such a proposition, but I suspect that if one were able to force him to do so, things may have been different.
The deleted scene with the hippies is therefore all the more curious, in light of this. It would have broken the feeling of timelessness in so many of the scenes. But would it have suggested the vistas other worlds to Ennis?
For Jack, I would have advised more forcefulness early on. I sometimes feel that had he confronted Ennis sooner, perhaps things would have been less painful, and the possibility of change perhaps would have been more real. I don't know if this really is the case.
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I have thought that if I could step into the movie, I would tell Jack to go ahead and buy that cow and calf operation and offer Ennis the job of running the place. I mean, Ennis could have some kind of foreman's cabin away from the main house and still be near enough to Jack without worry.
Of course, I would have to talk Ennis into taking the job, but I believe it would work as long as they were careful.
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Hi, I found this topic rather late, but here goes, with the benefit of reading everyone else's response.
I think first of all, welshwitch is right on, when she said a lot of time, people don't need advice as much as they need a kind and accepting friend who simply listens while they verbalize their thoughts and organize their feelings. With Ennis, this may be difficult, so a few words of advice may be needed.
Secondly, I think the advice depends on the time and situation in the movie. For example, if the call came just after their separation in '63, I'd say send the letter or postcard right the way, just to stay in touch, and maybe arrange to get together. They should have said more at the truck, but given the circumstance, staying in touch was the least they could do. How they proceed from that point would depend on them. Especially with Ennis being engaged to Alma, he'd have to do some difficult thinking and making a hard choice.
If the call had come at the reunion, with their own marriages still fresh...it would be difficult, especially with young children involved. I think just listening and being supportive is all a friend can do.
If the call had come after the divorce, I think it would be up to Jack, if he wants to take the reins, and offer to take Ennis up to his folks' for a visit. No commitment, just a look-see. And Ennis would be wise to at least explore the feel of the land. Once he met Jack's Ma, I am sure they'd be a couple building a cabin. There'd still be the old man to deal with, but Ennis is tougher than he looks.
If the call had come at the river scene, I'd say move to Texas. Start fresh, see what happens. It can't be any worse than what he had, and he'd be closer to Jack.
If the call had come at the final meeting, I'd knock some sense into them and make them stay another two days up in Lightning Flat, make Ennis quit his job, and Jack divorce Lureen, and the two of them build that cabin. By that time, they'd already committed to each other to the point of no return, and the children have grown. Twenty years!
But, hey, that's just me. I am a nosy-busy-body who tend to stick my neck into other people's business, and ended up getting chopped in the process. ;) No, seriously, I am just so sad to see them breaking up that way, I'd do anything to have them kiss and makeup.
Alternate universe or not, Ennis and Jack forever. <^(
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I have thought that if I could step into the movie, I would tell Jack to go ahead and buy that cow and calf operation and offer Ennis the job of running the place. I mean, Ennis could have some kind of foreman's cabin away from the main house and still be near enough to Jack without worry.
Of course, I would have to talk Ennis into taking the job, but I believe it would work as long as they were careful.
samwise_fan1965 , this is an interesting possibility. It has a chance of working, IMO, in that Ennis would be able to hide under the pretext of a working partnership.
I don't know, however, if Jack would have been satisfied with both of them not sharing a house together, but this is a technicality. For all intents and purposes, they would be together. And it would give time for Ennis to gradually be aclimatized to the idea of them living together.
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Hi, I found this topic rather late, but here goes, with the benefit of reading everyone else's response.
I think first of all, welshwitch is right on, when she said a lot of time, people don't need advice as much as they need a kind and accepting friend who simply listens while they verbalize their thoughts and organize their feelings. With Ennis, this may be difficult, so a few words of advice may be needed.
Secondly, I think the advice depends on the time and situation in the movie. For example, if the call came just after their separation in '63, I'd say send the letter or postcard right the way, just to stay in touch, and maybe arrange to get together. They should have said more at the truck, but given the circumstance, staying in touch was the least they could do. How they proceed from that point would depend on them. Especially with Ennis being engaged to Alma, he'd have to do some difficult thinking and making a hard choice.
If the call had come at the reunion, with their own marriages still fresh...it would be difficult, especially with young children involved. I think just listening and being supportive is all a friend can do.
If the call had come after the divorce, I think it would be up to Jack, if he wants to take the reins, and offer to take Ennis up to his folks' for a visit. No commitment, just a look-see. And Ennis would be wise to at least explore the feel of the land. Once he met Jack's Ma, I am sure they'd be a couple building a cabin. There'd still be the old man to deal with, but Ennis is tougher than he looks.
If the call had come at the river scene, I'd say move to Texas. Start fresh, see what happens. It can't be any worse than what he had, and he'd be closer to Jack.
If the call had come at the final meeting, I'd knock some sense into them and make them stay another two days up in Lightning Flat, make Ennis quit his job, and Jack divorce Lureen, and the two of them build that cabin. By that time, they'd already committed to each other to the point of no return, and the children have grown. Twenty years!
But, hey, that's just me. I am a nosy-busy-body who tend to stick my neck into other people's business, and ended up getting chopped in the process. ;) No, seriously, I am just so sad to see them breaking up that way, I'd do anything to have them kiss and makeup.
Alternate universe or not, Ennis and Jack forever. <^(
I also see WW's point.
And I agree that it depended on circumstances and timing. To be sure, I had said elsewhere that intervention would probably had been most effective in the end of that summer in 63. Had Jack been a bit more pushy and had Ennis been a bit more yileding, perhaps things might have turned out differently, IMO.
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Sorry, I don't want to rain on your parade but what you ask is so far away from the original characters and the short story, I can't figure out any answer. In Wyoming, in 1963, if not now still... I dont think Ennis and Jack ever had close enough friends to discuss this kind of matter, guys don't talk about this and it's still a fact now with many guys.
BTW, sorry if I'm conservative about the characters and the story but I"ll stick to the original, it's 1963, cowboys and Wyoming. ;)
Have to agree with cham - it was a great depiction of those times - have to stick with the original too.
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tpe, I guess trying to talk Ennis into even living on the same ranch as Jack might have taken some talking! But I like to think that he would have seen it as an easy (hopefully) solution to their problem.
Jack could just tell Ennis and anyone else that he knows the business end (the books) of ranching but not the actual running of the place and that's why he hired Ennis.
It makes sense in my happy and twisted little world.
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tpe, I guess trying to talk Ennis into even living on the same ranch as Jack might have taken some talking! But I like to think that he would have seen it as an easy (hopefully) solution to their problem.
Jack could just tell Ennis and anyone else that he knows the business end (the books) of ranching but not the actual running of the place and that's why he hired Ennis.
It makes sense in my happy and twisted little world.
I really think rationalizing it this way could have worked in the long run. But Ennis is so stubborn. Perhaps reason was not good enough for him. His fears could at times be so irrational that I would not be surprised if he would ignore the sense of it all.
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I really think rationalizing it this way could have worked in the long run. But Ennis is so stubborn. Perhaps reason was not good enough for him. His fears could at times be so irrational that I would not be surprised if he would ignore the sense of it all.
I agree with you here, tpe. Ennis has no reins on his own feelings, not until he had to come face-to-face with them after their last meeting. When he crumbled to the ground, his fortress fell, and even as Jack went to help him, he pushed Jack away, but Jack loved him so much, he held on, and only let Ennis go, looking after the truck as it drove away, because Ennis had said he couldn't take it any more. If it weren't for Cassie, Ennis may still be eating apple pies alone in diners, never sending that post card to Jack, never learning of his death, never finding those shirts, and never learning the great love that Jack had for him, and never learning that there has always been acceptance to them both, on that ranch...
The day Ennis' dad took KE and him to look at the scene of Earl's murder, was one traumatic moment when he was nine that forever burned irrational fear into Ennis' psyche and no rational explanation can change that apparent stubbornness. It took the power of love, not just the love that is a force of nature, but also the unconditional love of a mother, to transform Ennis from the old fear-filled child, into the love-filled man. The Ennis in SNIT, was the child coming out to Jack. The Ennis who toasted Alma and Kurt, who asked his daughter if her fiancee loved her, was the man coming out to greet the world.
:cr) :c) Here is to the new and improved Ennis...
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Hi, back after some RL issues, but isn't it amazing what a few shots of Old Rose can do? Ennis opened up to Jack mostly after a few shots. I'd take him out for a few drinks , then just let him vent, just listen as Jack did. Yes he is withdrawn and stubborn, but I don't feel he is the unfeeling bore that some have made him out to be. Obviously, when his trust is gained, he can open up. I agree that there are many scenes in the movie where some good advice would be forthcoming, especially the scene where he is obviosly dealing with his feelings after leaving Brokeback and Jack is " hinting" about seeing him again at Aguirre's trailor. It's clear what Jack wants, but it is also clear that Ennis is conflicted. I feel that it crosses his mind in light of what has happened up on Brokeback that he's at a point of " reconsidering" his marriage to Alma. It is at this point where a good honest peice of advice could go a long way... I go with Jack offering Ennis a ride to where ever, and once he has Ennis in the truck, Jack should offer to take him to LF with him, just to help him "help out" for the winter. ...And I also agree that once he meets Jack's mom, the rest for Jack would be alot easier to deal with. Sorry, gotta go ,work calls gotta make a livin. Later.
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Hi, back after some RL issues, but isn't it amazing what a few shots of Old Rose can do? Ennis opened up to Jack mostly after a few shots. I'd take him out for a few drinks , then just let him vent, just listen as Jack did. Yes he is withdrawn and stubborn, but I don't feel he is the unfeeling bore that some have made him out to be. Obviously, when his trust is gained, he can open up. I agree that there are many scenes in the movie where some good advice would be forthcoming, especially the scene where he is obviosly dealing with his feelings after leaving Brokeback and Jack is " hinting" about seeing him again at Aguirre's trailor. It's clear what Jack wants, but it is also clear that Ennis is conflicted. I feel that it crosses his mind in light of what has happened up on Brokeback that he's at a point of " reconsidering" his marriage to Alma. It is at this point where a good honest peice of advice could go a long way... I go with Jack offering Ennis a ride to where ever, and once he has Ennis in the truck, Jack should offer to take him to LF with him, just to help him "help out" for the winter. ...And I also agree that once he meets Jack's mom, the rest for Jack would be alot easier to deal with. Sorry, gotta go ,work calls gotta make a livin. Later.
Thanks for the suggestions, aintfoolin. I also thought about the giving a ride angle. I was surprised that Jack never offered. Perhaps he was still confused by the punch, was sure how Ennis felt. That's why the long, and slightly awkward conversation about "You doing it again next summer?" to get a feeling of how things are.
Yeah, RL issues take precedent over this forum. :( Please come back when you can. :ghug:
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Thanks for the suggestions, aintfoolin. I also thought about the giving a ride angle. I was surprised that Jack never offered. Perhaps he was still confused by the punch, was sure how Ennis felt. That's why the long, and slightly awkward conversation about "You doing it again next summer?" to get a feeling of how things are.
Yeah, RL issues take precedent over this forum. :( Please come back when you can. :ghug:
And after his offer of a loan was rejected, jack probably thought that Ennis would interpret any help or ride that he might offer as sheer condescension. I think he well understood Ennis and his pride.
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And after his offer of a loan was rejected, jack probably thought that Ennis would interpret any help or ride that he might offer as sheer condescension. I think he well understood Ennis and his pride.
I agree 100%. Ennis is so proud that any hint of Jack offering help, like moving to Texas, triggers an angry response. That look on Jack's face when Ennis kicked and said 's@#$' was so telling. Jake is also a wonderful actor. Jack understood at that moment, that Ennis is proud man, and would not offer to help, unless asked, and knew that Ennis would probably never ask. Yet, Ennis arrived at Signal by thumbing a ride. I am assuming the truck driver gave him a lift, or perhaps this was someone from Worland who just happen to be passing by. A lift is probably different from a loan, and they were likely going in opposite directions, as the reflection in Jack's rear view mirror shows Ennis walking away, physically and metaphorically.
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I've often thought that Ennis as seen in Jack's rear-view mirror is in fact a mirror image of the Western cliche "A man's got to do what a man's got to do." Ennis is doing what he thinks he has to do, but instinctively knows is the wrong thing. And we see it backwards as a hint that it's the reverse of where he should be going.
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Thanks lance and WW. Indeed, there is something monolithic about Ennis. His pride is certainly one manifestation. I find it so curious that a man who thought much about his personal honor would also had deep misgivings about his own self worth. A most fascinating charcter, but one would be hard pressed to give him any form of advice or help, given all this. It certainly made him less susceptible to suggestion, in a number of instances.
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Thanks lance and WW. Indeed, there is something monolithic about Ennis. His pride is certainly one manifestation. I find it so curious that a man who thought much about his personal honor would also had deep misgivings about his own self worth. A most fascinating charcter, but one would be hard pressed to give him any form of advice or help, given all this. It certainly made him less susceptible to suggestion, in a number of instances.
Hey, tpe, what a great way to put Ennis into perspective, thanks. I think he based has self-worth on values other than those that he based for honor and pride. He is proud of his abilities, his way as a man, as a cowboy, but he hated his feelings. Every emotion was a blow to his ego, until Jack came along; then every emotion was a joy to life, to live, to dream. He was torn between his own self-hatred and his love for Jack.
It was only when he resolved that self-hatred, rejected the age-old homophobic trauma that scared him for life, accepted Jack's Ma's unconditional love and acceptance, accepted what he and Jack shared was a one-shot love of a life time deal, that he was able to accept himself, love himself.
Monolithic, complex, fascinating...it's what I love about Ennis...but you all know that by now. :)
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Ennis had me at hello -- oops! Wrong movie!
Well, I think Ennis is the embodiment of the character type that finds nothing in himself to love. It wasn't just his reluctance to recognize his homosexuality that he didn't accept. He also had a strong sense of his poverty and his station in life ( poor, uneducated, orphan, not much chance to ever become someone important). All those negative feelings about himself show up over and over, scene after scene.AND, feeling that way, he overreacted to anyone who pointed out any of these shortcomings to him. A poor person knows he's poor, but, when someone else calls him poor, he gets angry and denies his own poverty. The same with a person who is basically uneducated. He recognizes his shortcomings in himself, but woe to the person who points them out to him. Therefore, Ennis, knowing what he is ( and not liking it at all), flies off the handle when anyone else even hints at his failures.
I'm sure we've all seen the little boy who knows he did something wrong, but, when confronted by his mommy, goes into a tantrum. This sort of stunted character development is very common, and Ennis is a perfect example of it. That's not to say anything bad about Ennis, but just my take on why he manifests these varying personality traits.
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Ennis had me at hello -- oops! Wrong movie!
Well, I think Ennis is the embodiment of the character type that finds nothing in himself to love. It wasn't just his reluctance to recognize his homosexuality that he didn't accept. He also had a strong sense of his poverty and his station in life ( poor, uneducated, orphan, not much chance to ever become someone important). All those negative feelings about himself show up over and over, scene after scene.AND, feeling that way, he overreacted to anyone who pointed out any of these shortcomings to him. A poor person knows he's poor, but, when someone else calls him poor, he gets angry and denies his own poverty. The same with a person who is basically uneducated. He recognizes his shortcomings in himself, but woe to the person who points them out to him. Therefore, Ennis, knowing what he is ( and not liking it at all), flies off the handle when anyone else even hints at his failures.
I'm sure we've all seen the little boy who knows he did something wrong, but, when confronted by his mommy, goes into a tantrum. This sort of stunted character development is very common, and Ennis is a perfect example of it. That's not to say anything bad about Ennis, but just my take on why he manifests these varying personality traits.
Oh, my! Lamusica, you had me laughing and crying! First I love that song, you had me at hello, by Kenny Chesney. Its PBS inducing so I don't listen to it much any more.
Then you had me crying for Ennis. Good thing I had my PBS shield up, or I'd be crying and sobbing.
You are absolutely on target with your analysis and insight, 100%. I think Jack also sensed this and walked on egg shell half the time. When Ennis asked about what's the pentacost, I bet you Jack knew but didn't want to show off Ennis. The same with money...after the scene at the end of the summer, Jack never gave Ennis any gift, not even a coat to replace the same one that he wore through the whole movie, or as someone pointed out, for twenty years.
What do you call that character type, "the embodiment of the character type that finds nothing in himself to love"? :(
I love learning from you all. As I told someone else in PM, this forum is food for my soul...the part of me that hungers for Brokeback Mountain, for Ennis, for Jack, for everything that has to do with this movie.
Thank you. :ghug: <^( :^^)
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Oh, my! Lamusica, you had me laughing and crying! First I love that song, you had me at hello, by Kenny Chesney. Its PBS inducing so I don't listen to it much any more.
Then you had me crying for Ennis. Good thing I had my PBS shield up, or I'd be crying and sobbing.
You are absolutely on target with your analysis and insight, 100%. I think Jack also sensed this and walked on egg shell half the time. When Ennis asked about what's the pentacost, I bet you Jack knew but didn't want to show off Ennis. The same with money...after the scene at the end of the summer, Jack never gave Ennis any gift, not even a coat to replace the same one that he wore through the whole movie, or as someone pointed out, for twenty years.
What do you call that character type, "the embodiment of the character type that finds nothing in himself to love"? :(
I love learning from you all. As I told someone else in PM, this forum is food for my soul...the part of me that hungers for Brokeback Mountain, for Ennis, for Jack, for everything that has to do with this movie.
Thank you. :ghug: <^( :^^)
Thank you,lamusica for your sensitive analysis;and to you,Lance,because you canalize all our feelings and sensations with your words,always so deep and expressive. :t) ^f^
Yes,perhaps in the innest part of Ennis self there was an almost unconscious fear about not being loved for his faults and lacks;the same that there always was another fear,the one of loosing the persons who could love him in a way or another... :-\\ Perhaps these two fears,differents but interchangeables, were what made him react as a man with a great quantity of love to do-and a great need to love and being loved-,but with a great difficulty to express it and,maybe more still,to show himself in this way.As if he was denying it for another fear:show his vulnerability,a way in his opinion to lessen his virility-men donīt cry,donīt show themselves sensitive as women....-, another of his fears and negations-not to be queer..-.I think most of his silences,and also his occasional violence,come from all his frustations. :(
Itīs sure Jack realised somehow all these problems in his partner behaviour and,as you say,was careful in not make him feel uncomfortable neither in his uneducation nor in his poverty,what says a lot about him :-*. But I guess that in this situation is very difficult to apply an advice that can be listened effectively,even for Jack, who counts with the almost hidden love Ennis felt for him in his favour as to change their present and their future-he was the only one who could make Ennis felt "important" for himself-.IMO.
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Hey, tpe, what a great way to put Ennis into perspective, thanks. I think he based has self-worth on values other than those that he based for honor and pride. He is proud of his abilities, his way as a man, as a cowboy, but he hated his feelings. Every emotion was a blow to his ego, until Jack came along; then every emotion was a joy to life, to live, to dream. He was torn between his own self-hatred and his love for Jack.
It was only when he resolved that self-hatred, rejected the age-old homophobic trauma that scared him for life, accepted Jack's Ma's unconditional love and acceptance, accepted what he and Jack shared was a one-shot love of a life time deal, that he was able to accept himself, love himself.
Monolithic, complex, fascinating...it's what I love about Ennis...but you all know that by now. :)
He certainly didn't try to show emotions, didn't he. His stoicism belies a warm heart. If there was any advice I'd give HIM, it would be this" don't be afraid to show vulnerability in the form of emotions. It shows the depth of what being human is all about -- and quite sexy at times, too. ;)
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Thank you,lamusica for your sensitive analysis;and to you,Lance,because you canalize all our feelings and sensations with your words,always so deep and expressive. :t) ^f^
Yes,perhaps in the innest part of Ennis self there was an almost unconscious fear about not being loved for his faults and lacks;the same that there always was another fear,the one of loosing the persons who could love him in a way or another... :-\\ Perhaps these two fears,differents but interchangeables, were what made him react as a man with a great quantity of love to do-and a great need to love and being loved-,but with a great difficulty to express it and,maybe more still,to show himself in this way.As if he was denying it for another fear:show his vulnerability,a way in his opinion to lessen his virility-men donīt cry,donīt show themselves sensitive as women....-, another of his fears and negations-not to be queer..-.I think most of his silences,and also his occasional violence,come from all his frustations. :(
Itīs sure Jack realised somehow all these problems in his partner behaviour and,as you say,was careful in not make him feel uncomfortable neither in his uneducation nor in his poverty,what says a lot about him :-*. But I guess that in this situation is very difficult to apply an advice that can be listened effectively,even for Jack, who counts with the almost hidden love Ennis felt for him in his favour as to change their present and their future-he was the only one who could make Ennis felt "important" for himself-.IMO.
Lamusica, Lance and Ali!!!
Very beautiful posts!!! Your all are right, and your thoughts are so true!!! Thank you so much for that. ^f^
I felt sad thinking in this Ennis, ashamed of his lacks, his poverty, his sexuality, everything he was and had.... :\'( :\'( :\'( I can imagine how hard it have to be living with yourself when you almost hate yourself and besides you are not able to show how you are feeling inside..... :\'( :\'( :\'( It's normal that Ennis were reserved and sometimes violent if he couldn't stand himself in some ways.
You're so right Alice, Jack was the only person who could make Ennis felt accepted, loved and "important" for himself. Nice words friend!!! ^f^
*o) It not so good for my PBS reading about this sad side of Ennis personality....My heart is broken thinking of him. Lance, finally you make me love Ennis as much as I love Jack.
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Ennis had me at hello -- oops! Wrong movie!
Well, I think Ennis is the embodiment of the character type that finds nothing in himself to love. It wasn't just his reluctance to recognize his homosexuality that he didn't accept. He also had a strong sense of his poverty and his station in life ( poor, uneducated, orphan, not much chance to ever become someone important). All those negative feelings about himself show up over and over, scene after scene.AND, feeling that way, he overreacted to anyone who pointed out any of these shortcomings to him. A poor person knows he's poor, but, when someone else calls him poor, he gets angry and denies his own poverty. The same with a person who is basically uneducated. He recognizes his shortcomings in himself, but woe to the person who points them out to him. Therefore, Ennis, knowing what he is ( and not liking it at all), flies off the handle when anyone else even hints at his failures.
I'm sure we've all seen the little boy who knows he did something wrong, but, when confronted by his mommy, goes into a tantrum. This sort of stunted character development is very common, and Ennis is a perfect example of it. That's not to say anything bad about Ennis, but just my take on why he manifests these varying personality traits.
Interesting points here, lamusica. A certain type of inferiority complex is part and parcel of the whole, I guess. I think advising him to show more emotion (as I said in my last post) would come a long way to making him accept himself with greater confidence. I think part of any inferiority complex is the desire not to show who oneself really is...
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Thank you,lamusica for your sensitive analysis;and to you,Lance,because you canalize all our feelings and sensations with your words,always so deep and expressive. :t) ^f^
Yes,perhaps in the innest part of Ennis self there was an almost unconscious fear about not being loved for his faults and lacks;the same that there always was another fear,the one of loosing the persons who could love him in a way or another... :-\\ Perhaps these two fears,differents but interchangeables, were what made him react as a man with a great quantity of love to do-and a great need to love and being loved-,but with a great difficulty to express it and,maybe more still,to show himself in this way.As if he was denying it for another fear:show his vulnerability,a way in his opinion to lessen his virility-men donīt cry,donīt show themselves sensitive as women....-, another of his fears and negations-not to be queer..-.I think most of his silences,and also his occasional violence,come from all his frustations. :(
Itīs sure Jack realised somehow all these problems in his partner behaviour and,as you say,was careful in not make him feel uncomfortable neither in his uneducation nor in his poverty,what says a lot about him :-*. But I guess that in this situation is very difficult to apply an advice that can be listened effectively,even for Jack, who counts with the almost hidden love Ennis felt for him in his favour as to change their present and their future-he was the only one who could make Ennis felt "important" for himself-.IMO.
Grazias, myprivatejack. I am merely reflecting the depth of the feelings from you all, and from the movie. I love being the channel that carries so much love. <^(
I think you are right on when you said, and I bolded above, Ennis has this two conflicts waging a war within himself all the time. In SNIT, the side that wants to be loved, that needs to be loved, won and the vulnerable Ennis showed up, surprising even Jack. When Jack is around, the fears are more controllable, and Ennis is fun and laughing a lot. When Jack is not around, Ennis is miserable because these fears, of losing Jack, of needing Jack when not suppose to, of losing Jack to Texas and rich money making Jack different and not remember what's it like to be poor all the time... Those quiet moments when Ennis was by himself, staring into empty bottles at the bar, or eating apple pie in the diner, were also moments when the battle must be raging with the most intense inner dialog.
Heath is the most amazing actor when he is quiet, when he can convey the inner soul of a character without saying a word. <^(
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Thank you, lance and Myprivatejack; it's nice to know some people see things the same way, or are open to the possibilities. I love Ennis ( and Jack, really), but I also feel so deeply for Ennis. There is something is him that resonates with me. He's like a little boy, and I just want to hold him and convince him he is a good boy and a good person -- someone valuable -- not a loser, as he thinks. You know how some people just pull at your heatstrings? Well, that's Ennis for me. He just seems so needy, which makes sense considering that he really never had the kind of love a child needs when he was growing up. He missed a lot of nurturing. Without that, a child always questions his value in relationship to other people. Does anyone really love him? Is there anything within him worth loving? Since no one actually has shown him love, he questions his worth. I think that's why he hangs onto Alma as long as he does. She is the first person who seems to really love him, but then she causes him a lot of guilt because he cannot love her back. His heart is already taken.
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He certainly didn't try to show emotions, didn't he. His stoicism belies a warm heart. If there was any advice I'd give HIM, it would be this" don't be afraid to show vulnerability in the form of emotions. It shows the depth of what being human is all about -- and quite sexy at times, too. ;)
This is so true tpe, and a wonderful dicussion here by everyone. Yes he was a stubborn man, but he also was warm-hearted and very vulnerable man. Especially when it came to his sexuality, he saw himself as a straight "man's man" in every sense of the word.....but...He was also a man at war with himself, an inner conflict which contained a vulnerability. Though in denial both sides of himself were very real. This is one thing he could not deny, He loved Jack, desired him, needed him for completion, yet could not bring himself to admit this fact denying himself as a whole person. Though when cornered as in the Thanksgiving scene , he comes out fighting and "defending " ( what he and Jack had was NOT "nasty" as Alma insinuates) Jack and his relationship with him. Yep he is fascinating and complex in the sense that with Jack , he is very emotionally connected. No matter what he says to Jack ( I aint queer) and to himself , his actins speak louder than his words. He really can't help it . He is so much unto himself, but when he looks at Jack he sees what he cannot deny at that moment, the one he loves who just happens to be a man. MO.
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This is so true tpe, and a wonderful dicussion here by everyone. Yes he was a stubborn man, but he also was warm-hearted and very vulnerable man. Especially when it came to his sexuality, he saw himself as a straight "man's man" in every sense of the word.....but...He was also a man at war with himself, an inner conflict which contained a vulnerability. Though in denial both sides of himself were very real. This is one thing he could not deny, He loved Jack, desired him, needed him for completion, yet could not bring himself to admit this fact denying himself as a whole person. Though when cornered as in the Thanksgiving scene , he comes out fighting and "defending " ( what he and Jack had was NOT "nasty" as Alma insinuates) Jack and his relationship with him. Yep he is fascinating and complex in the sense that with Jack , he is very emotionally connected. No matter what he says to Jack ( I aint queer) and to himself , his actins speak louder than his words. He really can't help it . He is so much unto himself, but when he looks at Jack he sees what he cannot deny at that moment, the one he loves who just happens to be a man. MO.
I agree. Words and feelings can be fooled and faked, but actions, especially repeated involuntary actions, speak louder than words, and truer too. The reunion kiss, the looks he gives Jack along with that unself-conscious grin, that's love when it's a force of nature. No denying it.
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Thanx Cowboy,
Your right, I loved the reunion scenes , especially everything that led up to the kiss is what really gets me. As time went on , and beer after beer was consumed I felt like I was waiting with Ennis. Jack made him wait, till the "if he shows" point. LOL. Finally he nods off in a chair. I think it was the 8th beer that did it! He's a nervous wreck, but ready...well, good and ready to see Jack again. By this point even I am pacing and asking the TV set questions like where the hell is he? . :8 :8 I love how everything around Ennis is normally going on, the child is being fed dinner and Alma has no idea what state Ennis is really in. I also love the subtle stuff thrown in , for example, Ennis so engrossed in his nervousness ( and new shirt) that he does'nt realize his beer is empty and immediatly goes for another. cigarettes are disappearing in a few drags!... Meantime Alma is saying something to him about the Knife and Fork and Ennis is barely listening to her. Then of course he relizes that Alma is planning on maybe coming along?!!! Whoa! Not %( %(This is waaaay to private for company. Then Jack finally arrives and Ennis practically runs to the window. That's the smile I love. When he first lays eyes on Jack again. It's a smile from Ennis imo that says he's home again. He's alive again. I love it. Then of course Jack ,out there wondering if he has the right place when Ennis appears on the landing and Jack sees him. It's definitly on then. The embrace Ennis with outstreched arms before Jack even got to him. I thought Ennis would never let him go. Personally I'd have been satisfied with that... But then comes that award winning kiss ,a slam dunk coupled with that little "look around".... I was sailing ...BLISS. Ledger nailed this role as Ennis, perfection personified. The man deserved the Oscar for this scene alone, yet there were many others... I have all his films on DVD, and am looking forward to TDK, no doubt he will make that role ( The Joker) all his own too. Amazing actor.
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Thanx Cowboy,
Your right, I loved the reunion scenes , especially everything that led up to the kiss is what really gets me. As time went on , and beer after beer was consumed I felt like I was waiting with Ennis. Jack made him wait, till the "if he shows" point. LOL. Finally he nods off in a chair. I think it was the 8th beer that did it! He's a nervous wreck, but ready...well, good and ready to see Jack again. By this point even I am pacing and asking the TV set questions like where the hell is he? . :8 :8 I love how everything around Ennis is normally going on, the child is being fed dinner and Alma has no idea what state Ennis is really in. I also love the subtle stuff thrown in , for example, Ennis so engrossed in his nervousness ( and new shirt) that he does'nt realize his beer is empty and immediatly goes for another. cigarettes are disappearing in a few drags!... Meantime Alma is saying something to him about the Knife and Fork and Ennis is barely listening to her. Then of course he relizes that Alma is planning on maybe coming along?!!! Whoa! Not %( %(This is waaaay to private for company. Then Jack finally arrives and Ennis practically runs to the window. That's the smile I love. When he first lays eyes on Jack again. It's a smile from Ennis imo that says he's home again. He's alive again. I love it. Then of course Jack ,out there wondering if he has the right place when Ennis appears on the landing and Jack sees him. It's definitly on then. The embrace Ennis with outstreched arms before Jack even got to him. I thought Ennis would never let him go. Personally I'd have been satisfied with that... But then comes that award winning kiss ,a slam dunk coupled with that little "look around".... I was sailing ...BLISS. Ledger nailed this role as Ennis, perfection personified. The man deserved the Oscar for this scene alone, yet there were many others... I have all his films on DVD, and am looking forward to TDK, no doubt he will make that role ( The Joker) all his own too. Amazing actor.
Yup, Heath Ledger for Oscar!!! And he nailed the waiting part, too. Perfect in every way, even ignoring the fact that it's fourteen hours drive, and started waiting from afternoon till dinner time. It also meant that Jack started very early to get there with daylight.
I love it when Ennis flicked that lighter, waiting, thinking, remembering borrowing Jack's lighter in the bar that first time. Every detail in the movie makes it so real to me. Oops, *o) what were we saying? Giving advice to Ennis? or Jack? How about telling Ennis to pay more attention to Alma, or Jack to shower Lureen with romance, like their first dance? How about Jack leaving Lureen and moving closer to Riverton? How about Ennis taking up ranch work in Texas after the divorce? I think the problem with giving advice is in a way, playing the what if game, the could've and should've game. Games People Play is a great book. Transactional Analysis, too. In this case, it's not about Ennis and Jack doing anything differently. We all know what they could have and should have done. It is all about what they felt, what they did as the result of working together one summer in '63. Like someone else said, if we change anything in the movie, it won't be the same movie. And I love this particular movie.
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Well, I agree with everyone that Ennis, at the very least, would never talk about it with anyone. Heck, he couldn't even bring himself to talk about it with Jack!
But I look at this topic as more of an AU kind of question. If you were in a position of close friendship and you could offer them (or one of them ) advice, what would it be? Did I get that right, aintfoolin? In that case, I find it a fascinating question. I'm not quite sure what I'd tell either of them, though. :s) Will have to give that some thought.
I do find it interesting that so many people would suggest Jack move closer to Ennis, though. Never mind the fact that, once again, that puts the burden of compromising for the relationship on his shoulders. There are practical reasons such a solution wouldn't make sense. First, he has a son. If he can't actually be with Ennis, why should he leave his son just on the off chance that proximity might at some point in the future help make Ennis come around? And second, Jack is able to drive up and make the meets with Ennis, on Ennis's work schedule precisely because of his personal situation. If he left to move closer to Ennis, there is nothing to say that he could find a job that would allow for them to spend time together at all. So all he would really accomplish is living closer to Ennis, without any guarantee that it would allow for more contact or that it would have any impact on Ennis's feelings about making a life together.
I like what jessi said about wanting to be a guardian angel to them. I guess what I would try most to convey to each of them is that what your heart draws you to is so much more important than anything outside of that. And that finding someone you want to be with in this world who wants to be with you is the best that anyone can hope for, whatever the risks. Too bad Ennis couldn't have a conversation with either Earl or Rich; maybe they could have shown him that some things are worth risking everything for (assuming either of them felt that way).
But what practical advice I would give them? ??? Hmm, I'll have to think about it. Tough case.
Thank you FlowerChild for explaining it better the context in which I started this thread. It is indeed an AU ( alternative universe or a parallele universe type question, not meant to change , add to, or take away from this original classic film ( and complete finished product) that has touched us so deeply.
I only imply a "stepping outside the movie" context, and perspective, so that one could apply their own personal perspective to the goings on. How they handled the difficult dilelima in which they found themselves, again without changing the outcome in a REAL sense. imo what was NOT said and done is just as important as what WAS.
I do find it fascinating to explore what did or did'nt happen that lead to the outcome. The film is what it is and of course will remain intact, regardless of our 2 cents worth of advice/opinion.
Thanks to all who have givin their opinion so far. I gain much knowledge from your personal perspectives.
Having said that,
The divorce scene is a perfect example of a scene that conjures up a lot of emotion , instead of leaving town as Jack did after driving so far, he deserved much more than he got. After all it was Ennis who contacted Jack concerning his freedom from Alma, therfore " implying" to Jack that now they could get on with their future together. I would advise Jack to wait a couple days until Enniis's time with his girls was finished, then confront him on the what, when, and why of the matter. Yeah, I know Jack was'nt one to "press his luck" with Ennis, but in this world , I can allow him to. Perhaps had he gotten the answers he sought at this point, imo , maybe Mexico trip would'nt have happened. Maybe I'm wrong, but depending on what is said by Jack and Ennis when Jack returns would lessen the blow to Jack's heart wrenching rejection.
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This is so true tpe, and a wonderful dicussion here by everyone. Yes he was a stubborn man, but he also was warm-hearted and very vulnerable man. Especially when it came to his sexuality, he saw himself as a straight "man's man" in every sense of the word.....but...He was also a man at war with himself, an inner conflict which contained a vulnerability. Though in denial both sides of himself were very real. This is one thing he could not deny, He loved Jack, desired him, needed him for completion, yet could not bring himself to admit this fact denying himself as a whole person. Though when cornered as in the Thanksgiving scene , he comes out fighting and "defending " ( what he and Jack had was NOT "nasty" as Alma insinuates) Jack and his relationship with him. Yep he is fascinating and complex in the sense that with Jack , he is very emotionally connected. No matter what he says to Jack ( I aint queer) and to himself , his actins speak louder than his words. He really can't help it . He is so much unto himself, but when he looks at Jack he sees what he cannot deny at that moment, the one he loves who just happens to be a man. MO.
Ennis clearly had insecurities that he didn't seem to know how to deal with. And I do think the insecurities are much more than questions on sexuality. I think being deprived of love for most of his childhood became a real problem with him. Jack was probably the first one to love him for what he truly was.