Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: lamusica on Nov 22, 2007, 10:30 PM
-
I have always found the two Thanksgiving Day scenes to be reflective of very important ideas in the development of the two main characters, as well as clarification of some minor ones.
We learn a lot about Jack -- he DOES have a breaking point. In so many other scenes, he seems to keep quiet and declines arguing, but here we see him fed up and determined to have his way.
We learn about Ennis when Alma confronts him with her proof that he never went fishing with Jack. He knows, now, that Alma knows what he and Jack did on their trips, and he has to make a decision, quickly, about how to respond. Anger wins and he lashes out at Alma, telling us that he can be pushed too far, especially when it comes to being outed.
We learn that Lureen's old man is a despotic old martinet, a real stud duck.
We learn Lureen's mother is completely cowed by her husband so she never said a word.
Lureen is proud when Jack stands up to her father, indicating that
she did care about Jack, and, maybe one reason she married Jack was to get away from under the old man's thumb.
We get a glimpse of Bobby as a puling little kid, not too happy he didn't get his way. He didn't seem too close to either parent, or grand-parent.
At Alma's house, we see Alma in her nice house with her new husband, but we don't see her happy. She may be content, but she doesn't smile, looks down all the time, shows no signs of happiness.
Her husband says NOTHING -- All we know about him is that he allowed Ennis to share Thanksgiving dinner with the family. Other than that, he is a cypher.
We know the girls are well-behaved and happy to see their father, but they, too, show no obvious signs of being happy.
And Ennis is just so uncomfortable, you can feel him wanting to crawl out of his skin and get the hell out of there, even before the dish-washing scene.
These two scenes are important to me because of what they show us about the characters, as well as about ourselves. I'll stop here and see if anyone has discovered more within them.
-
Lamusica, mostly what I remember is that Ennis' daughters adored him, and one ran out of the house after him. Says a lot about what
kind of man he was and what kind of father. At Jack's home, looked to me that his wife was secretly proud of him for standing up to her Dad.
She just may have loved Jack, in her own way. That's what I remember,myself, as unusual.
-
It is interesting to note that Jack's Thanksgiving scene follows immediately after the disaster of the aborted post-divorce meeting with Ennis and his trip to Mexico. It is indeed important to put the Thanksgiving scene in this context, in the sense that Jack had reached a breaking point not only with the elder Newsome, but also with his own self. I think this marks the begining of his disillusionment, when he gradually comes to the realization that his dreams will not be fulfilled. We see him losing patience with the state of things -- at home and with his relationship with Ennis.
-
Her husband (Monroe) says NOTHING -- All we know about him is that he allowed Ennis to share Thanksgiving dinner with the family. Other than that, he is a cypher.
Curiosity here . . . "You want your boy to grow up to be a man don't ya'" L. D. Newsom.
At Jack's house they're watching football (though Jack shuts it off for dinner).
At Monroe's house they're watchin' . . . ice skating.
'Course at Jack's it's three males and two females, at Monroe's it's three females and two males. Just another great little detail.
-
It is interesting to note that Jack's Thanksgiving scene follows immediately after the disaster of the aborted post-divorce meeting with Ennis and his trip to Mexico. It is indeed important to put the Thanksgiving scene in this context, in the sense that Jack had reached a breaking point not only with the elder Newsome, but also with his own self. I think this marks the begining of his disillusionment, when he gradually comes to the realization that his dreams will not be fulfilled. We see him losing patience with the state of things -- at home and with his relationship with Ennis.
Yes that it how I see it too. That something "snapped" in Jack after that divorce debacle.
I did like the little smirk Lureen gave when Jack told off LD, as well as the nod to Bobby. I've always held the notion that while Jack's heart lie with Ennis that he and Lureen had a somewhat decent relationship even if it was more friends than anything. And that scene with that silent "You listen to your father" type of nod sort of shows that they do manage to support each other.
Monroe is just out of it- how does he not hear his pregnant wife screaming at her ex-husband in the kitchen? You can hear silverware dropping and he's off in la la land. %&) But you clearly see the girls do adore their daddy. I like how they sort of manipulated things- not sure if manipulated is the right word but when they started asking Ennis about riding broncs I think it was their was of showing Monroe that Ennis would always be their daddy.
Jack is clearly frustrated here. (ya think? ;)) Before he gets up to carve the turkey I always see him thinking "What the hell am I doing here? I shouldn't be here."
-
Lamusica, mostly what I remember is that Ennis' daughters adored him, and one ran out of the house after him. Says a lot about what
kind of man he was and what kind of father. At Jack's home, looked to me that his wife was secretly proud of him for standing up to her Dad.
She just may have loved Jack, in her own way. That's what I remember,myself, as unusual.
Tony, your post makes me think that my original post was right-on. What I mean is, there is so much more to those two scenes than just what you remember. I think they are so rich in helping define the characters -- especially their emotional characteristics -- but for so long, I have only focused on the major happenings that you mention above. Each time I have viewed the film, I have seen another little gem of information to be gleaned -- all toward the point of subtle character development. Two scenes which left me cold the first couple of times I watched them, later became quite pivotal to me.
-
It is interesting to note that Jack's Thanksgiving scene follows immediately after the disaster of the aborted post-divorce meeting with Ennis and his trip to Mexico. It is indeed important to put the Thanksgiving scene in this context, in the sense that Jack had reached a breaking point not only with the elder Newsome, but also with his own self. I think this marks the begining of his disillusionment, when he gradually comes to the realization that his dreams will not be fulfilled. We see him losing patience with the state of things -- at home and with his relationship with Ennis.
Isn't it true that we all have to have at least one little part of our lives that is under our control? As you pointed out, Jack finally figured out that he certainly was not incontrol of the relationship between him and Ennis; he had just been rebuffed rather brutally. But, here at home, in his own house, he COULD call the shots if he took over the control of the situation with L.D. Newsome. Wihin these walls, he COULD be the boss -- and finally, he made that clear to everyone. As you said, this is a new Jack we're seeing here. We might have expected him to just turn over the reins to his FIL, but, instead, he asserts himself, doesn't back down, and earns some respect from his wife and everyone else around the table.
-
Yes that it how I see it too. That something "snapped" in Jack after that divorce debacle.
I did like the little smirk Lureen gave when Jack told off LD, as well as the nod to Bobby. I've always held the notion that while Jack's heart lie with Ennis that he and Lureen had a somewhat decent relationship even if it was more friends than anything. And that scene with that silent "You listen to your father" type of nod sort of shows that they do manage to support each other.
Monroe is just out of it- how does he not hear his pregnant wife screaming at her ex-husband in the kitchen? You can hear silverware dropping and he's off in la la land. %&) But you clearly see the girls do adore their daddy. I like how they sort of manipulated things- not sure if manipulated is the right word but when they started asking Ennis about riding broncs I think it was their was of showing Monroe that Ennis would always be their daddy.
Jack is clearly frustrated here. (ya think? ;)) Before he gets up to carve the turkey I always see him thinking "What the hell am I doing here? I shouldn't be here."
I agree with you!!! That is what Jack's face is clearly saying!!! I've always thought like you and also I've always thought "what the hell is he doing there? That is not his right place!!! It's with Ennis or at least in some place else where he can be free and can be himself."
-
Curiosity here . . . "You want your boy to grow up to be a man don't ya'" L. D. Newsom.
At Jack's house they're watching football (though Jack shuts it off for dinner).
At Monroe's house they're watchin' . . . ice skating.
'Course at Jack's it's three males and two females, at Monroe's it's three females and two males. Just another great little detail.
In all the times i have watched this film, I never noticed that they were watching ice skating, although with little girls around, that's pretty much de rigeur, no? I just find Monroe to be the antithesis of Ennis. So mild, calm, and very forgettable.
I think Alma is pregnant in this scene just to show that she was willing to have Monroe's baby because she knew he could provide for it -- a slam to Ennis's masculinity, for sure. There's no other purpose for her to be pregnant in that scene, imo, but to cause discomfort to Ennis.
Also, was the only reason she invited Ennis to confront him about the unused fishing gear? Was that why she was so quiet, actually sour, at the dinner table? To me, that proved how much she had loved ( and maybe still did love) Ennis. She had not put closure to their relationship yet, although quite some time had passed. I doubt if she ever did get over him.
-
Yes that it how I see it too. That something "snapped" in Jack after that divorce debacle.
I did like the little smirk Lureen gave when Jack told off LD, as well as the nod to Bobby. I've always held the notion that while Jack's heart lie with Ennis that he and Lureen had a somewhat decent relationship even if it was more friends than anything. And that scene with that silent "You listen to your father" type of nod sort of shows that they do manage to support each other.
Monroe is just out of it- how does he not hear his pregnant wife screaming at her ex-husband in the kitchen? You can hear silverware dropping and he's off in la la land. %&) But you clearly see the girls do adore their daddy. I like how they sort of manipulated things- not sure if manipulated is the right word but when they started asking Ennis about riding broncs I think it was their was of showing Monroe that Ennis would always be their daddy.
Jack is clearly frustrated here. (ya think? ;)) Before he gets up to carve the turkey I always see him thinking "What the hell am I doing here? I shouldn't be here."
I always wondered about Monroe, too. He finally starts to get up when he hears Alma scream and Ennis slam out the door, but until that last minute, he's just totally "not there". I wonder, too, about his relationship with the girls. All we know is that Jenny thinks he and her mother are too hard on her, making her babysit the new baby and help around the house ( later on).But you never really hear them mention him otherwise, so it seems that he's not too important in their lives, but not abusive, either. Again, a cypher.
I thihk it's occurrencces like this one that make Jack so willing to drop everything in Texas and go off with Ennis. I was just so proud of him when he finally took control of Thanksgiving dinner in his own house. At least, THERE, L.D. Newsome was NOT in charge. He didn't have to ask permission from anyone about anything. He had handed off the rest of his life to others -- Ennis, Lureen, Newsome, his old man back on the ranch, but HERE he was king.
-
Curiosity here . . . "You want your boy to grow up to be a man don't ya'" L. D. Newsom.
At Jack's house they're watching football (though Jack shuts it off for dinner).
At Monroe's house they're watchin' . . . ice skating.
'Course at Jack's it's three males and two females, at Monroe's it's three females and two males. Just another great little detail.
Indeed, I noticed this difference. Also, Monroe doesn't look to me like the guy who whould watch American football during Thanksgiving, for some reason.
-
Yes that it how I see it too. That something "snapped" in Jack after that divorce debacle.
I did like the little smirk Lureen gave when Jack told off LD, as well as the nod to Bobby. I've always held the notion that while Jack's heart lie with Ennis that he and Lureen had a somewhat decent relationship even if it was more friends than anything. And that scene with that silent "You listen to your father" type of nod sort of shows that they do manage to support each other.
Monroe is just out of it- how does he not hear his pregnant wife screaming at her ex-husband in the kitchen? You can hear silverware dropping and he's off in la la land. %&) But you clearly see the girls do adore their daddy. I like how they sort of manipulated things- not sure if manipulated is the right word but when they started asking Ennis about riding broncs I think it was their was of showing Monroe that Ennis would always be their daddy.
Jack is clearly frustrated here. (ya think? ;)) Before he gets up to carve the turkey I always see him thinking "What the hell am I doing here? I shouldn't be here."
Thanks LJN.
Here's a question for anyone in Texas or the US Southern states: was it typical to serve the turkey bathed in gravy ? This was a big difference between the two thanksgiving scenes, no?
-
In all the times i have watched this film, I never noticed that they were watching ice skating, although with little girls around, that's pretty much de rigeur, no? I just find Monroe to be the antithesis of Ennis. So mild, calm, and very forgettable.
I think Alma is pregnant in this scene just to show that she was willing to have Monroe's baby because she knew he could provide for it -- a slam to Ennis's masculinity, for sure. There's no other purpose for her to be pregnant in that scene, imo, but to cause discomfort to Ennis.
Also, was the only reason she invited Ennis to confront him about the unused fishing gear? Was that why she was so quiet, actually sour, at the dinner table? To me, that proved how much she had loved ( and maybe still did love) Ennis. She had not put closure to their relationship yet, although quite some time had passed. I doubt if she ever did get over him.
I've always thought that Alma was still in love with Ennis during Thanksgiving!!!
-
I've always thought that Alma was still in love with Ennis during Thanksgiving!!!
I didn't think she was still in love with him but bitter. Infidelity is a rough thing to get over and to see her girls there idolizing their father had to kill her. I don't think she hated Ennis or anything- I think resented him is more likely.
-
I didn't think she was still in love with him but bitter. Infidelity is a rough thing to get over and to see her girls there idolizing their father had to kill her. I don't think she hated Ennis or anything- I think resented him is more likely.
I agree, LJN. When you really hate someone you try to get them out of your mind -- totally out of your life. Alma couldn't do that with Ennis. First of all, he was the father of her girls, but also, imo, she still held Ennis in her heart to some extent. She wanted to hear him defend himself, thus assuring her that she was right to have left him. She couldn't stand to cut him loose totally.
-
I agree Lamusica- some form of remorse or something from him. Perhaps that's why she chose then to explode. The "once burned" comment is uncalled for any way you slice it but to hear that she was to blame in some way set her of big time.
-
. . . . Perhaps that's why she chose then to explode. The "once burned" comment is uncalled for any way you slice it but to hear that she was to blame in some way set her of big time.
Quite a little exchange here really. Of course Alma gets upset at the "Once burned" remark, but she's the one who just said "You ought to get married again, Ennis . . . " just before she then accuses him of playing hanky-panky with Jack Nasty. So what does she think, that another marriage is going set Ennis straight? Cure him? They’re both dancin’ around the firey subject here, no wonder tempers flared. Ennis did have the sense to get out of there, finally took out his violence on the errant truck driver who was able to give as good as he got.
-
Quite a little exchange here really. Of course Alma gets upset at the "Once burned" remark, but she's the one who just said "You ought to get married again, Ennis . . . " just before she then accuses him of playing hanky-panky with Jack Nasty. So what does she think, that another marriage is going set Ennis straight? Cure him? They’re both dancin’ around the firey subject here, no wonder tempers flared. Ennis did have the sense to get out of there, finally took out his violence on the errant truck driver who was able to give as good as he got.
Good point, jackster. I wonder what her motivations were when she suggested a second marriage to Ennis. Perhaps she still genuinely cared for him, in spite of her hatred of his betrayal. Life with Ennis had probably split her in two.
-
Quite a little exchange here really. Of course Alma gets upset at the "Once burned" remark, but she's the one who just said "You ought to get married again, Ennis . . . " just before she then accuses him of playing hanky-panky with Jack Nasty. So what does she think, that another marriage is going set Ennis straight? Cure him? They’re both dancin’ around the firey subject here, no wonder tempers flared. Ennis did have the sense to get out of there, finally took out his violence on the errant truck driver who was able to give as good as he got.
Good point. There could be many reasons she said that to him. Could be she was "feeling him out" without directly asking him why he wasn't with anyone. Could be there is a part of her that still harbored the self blame that comes with infidelity- a new marriage wouldn't be a cure necessarily but there could be a part of her that still feels inadequate- that it was something about her that made him "that way". Could be she was just being fecitious and setting him up so she could let loose on him. And it could be as Thomas said- that she genuinely cared for him- there was a part of her that did otherwise I don't think he'd have been sitting at that table no matter how much the girls may have begged.
-
IMO,Alma wasn´t thinking that a new marriage would be a "cure" for his "moral illness",according to her;I´m more inclined to believe that she was looking for the proper moment to "explode" after all these years.This fête day was an excuse for the three of them to express they really wanted to spent it with another person;Alma with Ennis and the girls-because I agree that she was already in love with him,letting aside she may feel hurt for having been deceived and,moreover,with another man-,and Ennis with Jack and viceversa... <^( And also the situation showed a real insatisfation in the three about what his family life was beeing up to that moment;in the thread about "what scene you dislike the most?" I said precisely that a family fête day is sometimes a very special moment to show frustrations and problems in general and I gave the example of Christmas time in which a lot of people feel depressed or unsatisfied,more than in other time of the year. :-\\
Jack was arriving to a point of no return both with his relationship with Ennis and with his father-in-law and the role this made him play before his wife and son-sure explosion-;Ennis-as I said in the other post-felt a mixing of fear if perhaps Alma talked too much before too many persons,a Jack´s clear protection against the attack he was suffering on the part of Alma and also a reafirmation of his man role before Alma,Monroe,the girls and,above all,before himself-another sure explosion-;Alma knew she didn´t love Monroe but he gave her the social an economical security she always have looked for in her role of conventional woman,and for this reason felt more angry and frustrated thinking in the life she had dreamed of with Ennis,her real love-the third explosion-. ^*) ^*) ^*)
Monroe and Lureen were two simple spectators of the story:he in his role of protective husband and father who let things pass before his eyes without saying anything,because he´s not the fighter´s kind in literal sense, and she feeling proud of a man she chose maybe for a caprice,a momentaneous sexual attraction and whose "cowardice" was perhaps a ballast to the image she wanted to show according to her social status...A situation,in short,that must happen sooner or later bearing in mind the relationship among them.
-
Alma did'nt seem to happy or comfortable about having Ennis there in the first place, and then the girls asking him to relay his rodeo days? This may have triggered her . Don't think her concern for Ennis being alone all the time was genuine either. I agree she was feeling him out. Ennis replys to her question about him still fishing with Jack Twist, this was imo, her "lead in" to find out if the relationship with him and Jack was still on. It did'nt matter how often they met as I posted on another thread, but that Jack Nasty was was still in the picture. She then takes this opportunity to let Ennis know that she knew the real nature of their meetings with what she had seen. But still she does not come out and say "I saw you" though she was being spiteful. Ennis's "once burned" did nothing to endear himself to her either." Love hath no fury like a woman scorned". She was'nt going to take the blame,and be played for a fool any longer. She was livid at the audacity of Ennis.
-
I agree. MPJ and aintfoolin. Anything would have probably been sufficient to make Alma explode at that point. The way she looked at Ennis at the end of the Rodeo story expressed so much pent-up rage, no?
Still, I still wonder whether the remarriage comment from Alma was purely given to pick up a fight. I somehow felt that what made Alma explide at that point was Ennis's answer, which was not exactly gracious, no?
-
I have read the screenplay many times and am always struck by the difference in the reunion scene between the two. This isn't really off topic because Aintfooolin mentions it in her last post, that Alma SAW them. The movie definitely implies that Ennis did not know that Alma had seen him, but, in the SP, Ennis and Jack were not as hidden and Alma opened the door, stood there and watched. To me that means that Ennis DID know that Alma knew. To me, that is an important distinction betwen the film and the SP, and would account for different dynamics between Ennis and Alma during the rest of their marriage, and even after that. Anyone else ever wonder about that?
-
You Bet, Lamusica.
Big Differences here.
Are you referencing the “published” screenplay or the working screenplays used in shooting the movie? The published version seems to have been rewritten to pretty much match the released film, though as you point out not exactly. The screenplays from the movie shoot dated “31 Mar 2004 DRAFT” and later “Revisions 7 April 2004” have yet other variations on this scene (as well as many others of course). For instance in neither of these working versions does Ennis exclaim “Jack F**kin’ Twist!”. (A Heath invention?) And what Ennis knows about what Alma sees differs too. It is amazing to me how many of these little variations are glossed over in the final film cut, but don’t really seem to effect the mastery of the completed piece. It all still makes sense. ‘Course, in the SS he definitely knows she saw them:
The door opened again a few inches and Alma stood in the narrow light.
What could he say? "Alma, this is Jack Twist. Jack, my wife, Alma." His chest was heaving. . . . . "Alma," he said, "Jack and me ain't seen each other in four years." As if it were a reason. He was glad the light was dim on the landing but did not turn away from her.
To answer your question, yes it would seem if he knew she'd seen them EVERYTHING would change from that moment on. These other “working” screenplays are available online as .pdf, but I’m not allowed tell you where here. If you PM me I’ll send the link.
-
Interesting lamusica. It is a big distinction.
You know, I think that at the time of the Thanksiging scenes, I had a feeling that Ennis (in the movie) probably had an inkling that Alma knew but didn't care -- so long as she kept quiet about it. This is why I think her bringing it out in the open enraged Ennis so -- she had violated an unwritten rule between the two of them.
-
Very, very interesting discussion, I'm much enjoying. Tpe and lamusica, this makes sense to me . It would explain Alma and Ennis's interaction in the reunion scene. She goes from wanting to take Jack out to total contempt for him. If Ennis suspected she knew, he appeared not to care, just wanted outta there, maybe to "head off" any questioning of his behavior with Jack, (among other things ;)) , but had he known for sure in the movie, it would have indeed changed everything else that transpired afterward as jackster said...dramatically. Your right Tpe, if Alma was a different kinda woman, and spoke up sooner,who knows what would have happened. Ennis would have ....nah ,I don't wanna think about it. Thank goodness she did'nt speak up.
-
Very, very interesting discussion, I'm much enjoying. Tpe and lamusica, this makes sense to me . It would explain Alma and Ennis's interaction in the reunion scene. She goes from wanting to take Jack out to total contempt for him. If Ennis suspected she knew, he appeared not to care, just wanted outta there, maybe to "head off" any questioning of his behavior with Jack, (among other things ;)) , but had he known for sure in the movie, it would have indeed changed everything else that transpired afterward as jackster said...dramatically. Your right Tpe, if Alma was a different kinda woman, and spoke up sooner,who knows what would have happened. Ennis would have ....nah ,I don't wanna think about it. Thank goodness she did'nt speak up.
That Alma kept quiet up until the Thanksgiving scene was both a blessing and a curse, I think. It was a blessing in that it kept things relatively stable for so long -- even after the divorce, I would think. It allowed both of them to maintain some semplance of self-respect.
It was a curse in that it was eating away at Alma's soul. And when she cracked in the Thanksgiving scene, it was probably a foregone thing that she all this had turned her bitter -- incapable of true happiness.
-
That Alma kept quiet up until the Thanksgiving scene was both a blessing and a curse, I think. It was a blessing in that it kept things relatively stable for so long -- even after the divorce, I would think. It allowed both of them to maintain some semplance of self-respect.
It was a curse in that it was eating away at Alma's soul. And when she cracked in the Thanksgiving scene, it was probably a foregone thing that she all this had turned her bitter -- incapable of true happiness.
Or maybe a release, like draining an infected sore. She carried this knowledge within her for years, eating at her, and her marriage to Ennis, the inability to settle in her new marriage. To strike back at Ennis, to let him know what she carried all those years was finallly out, it just might have brought the peace in her mind she needed in order to keep living. She gave Ennis the burden of knowing what ruin their marriage, now let him carry the load, she was free of it.
Just a thought
-
Or maybe a release, like draining an infected sore. She carried this knowledge within her for years, eating at her, and her marriage to Ennis, the inability to settle in her new marriage. To strike back at Ennis, to let him know what she carried all those years was finallly out, it just might have brought the peace in her mind she needed in order to keep living. She gave Ennis the burden of knowing what ruin their marriage, now let him carry the load, she was free of it.
Just a thought
I agree that it was good in that it was a release of all the pent-up anger. But it probably was also emotionally draining for her. And I wonder whether the font of her anger remained active, even after such a release -- we never see Alam again after that scene, but I suspect that the release probably didn't reconcile her to the way things were, nor did it assuage her bitterness, most likely.
-
I've often thought both scenes showed how people act when they feel solid ground under their feet.
Jack sees his marriage and LD's attitude to him clearly; he's giving up on the dream of a life with Ennis but sees that what he has in Texas isn't and never has been what he wanted, so it doesn't matter now if he offends LD or not. Maybe he sees the prospect of more years with Lureen, at least while his son is a child, and thinks he may as well lay down some boundaries at long last - until then his family has always been something he expected to give up once Ennis agreed to settle down with him so he's tolerated LD's presence since one day Lureen will have only her son and her parents left.Now there is no reason to put up with interference and belittling remarks from a man who has never accepted him.
I see Alma's confrontation with Ennis in much the same way. While she was married to him she didn't want to bring up what she found, even much later, more of less unspeakable; gradually, however, she gained strength, first to get a job, then to defy Ennis, then to divorce him and marry Monroe. Now she has the girls, a comfortable home and is going to have Monroe's child; she is safely settled into the sort of life she always wanted and feels able to challenge Ennis - I even wonder whether the girls' asking him about his rodeo experiences, by which they (? unintentionally) point up the difference between Ennis the man of the outdoors and Monroe the grocer actually provokes her into bringing to the surface what she has repressed for so long.
In essence too Lureen has nothing to lose; she has the Newsome money and business, and her father is never going to cut her and her son off - I think she's also pleased to see at least some fight in Jack, who has pretended to ignore LD's slights for many years.
And Ennis thinks he has nothing to lose - he has no wife, has the girls only for short periods which are (presumably) guaranteed by legal arrangements over access, and has once again, and evidently he thinks finally, turned down the sweet life with Jack.
These are people who know where they are; they may not like it entirely or even at all but at least they know it.
-
Alma did'nt seem to happy or comfortable about having Ennis there in the first place, and then the girls asking him to relay his rodeo days? This may have triggered her . Don't think her concern for Ennis being alone all the time was genuine either. I agree she was feeling him out. Ennis replys to her question about him still fishing with Jack Twist, this was imo, her "lead in" to find out if the relationship with him and Jack was still on. It did'nt matter how often they met as I posted on another thread, but that Jack Nasty was was still in the picture. She then takes this opportunity to let Ennis know that she knew the real nature of their meetings with what she had seen. But still she does not come out and say "I saw you" though she was being spiteful. Ennis's "once burned" did nothing to endear himself to her either." Love hath no fury like a woman scorned". She was'nt going to take the blame,and be played for a fool any longer. She was livid at the audacity of Ennis.
This is an amazing thread. I've always felt the two scenes were pivotal in the movie's development. And you got Alma pegged, aintfoolin. IMO, Alma was portrayed to perfection with a much deeper character than was in the short story. She was definitely not comfortable that Ennis was sitting at the table. Then when Ennis made up stories about his rodeo days, she was triggered into asking him about his other lies. And one motivation may be that she want him out of her life for good. She most certainly knows him enough to predict his reactions. The little look and exchange in the grocery story when he dropped of the girls was rich. After she said what about my job...Ennis gave her that look which says, here we go, like before the July 4th scene.
Alma probably knew Ennis was going to explode and then leave, and never to come back, not even when the girls ask him or invite him. Ennis was definitely insensitive to say "once burned". Just like those other times with Jack, when the simplest common sense response would have saved him a lot of heartache...dumbass...
:(
-
It is interesting to note that Jack's Thanksgiving scene follows immediately after the disaster of the aborted post-divorce meeting with Ennis and his trip to Mexico. It is indeed important to put the Thanksgiving scene in this context, in the sense that Jack had reached a breaking point not only with the elder Newsome, but also with his own self. I think this marks the begining of his disillusionment, when he gradually comes to the realization that his dreams will not be fulfilled. We see him losing patience with the state of things -- at home and with his relationship with Ennis.
It is interesting that Jack's appearance really changed at this point, with the mustache, and he lost that sense of youth and vitality, of adventure. It's almost like he was now resigned to living from day to day.
-
I didn't think she was still in love with him but bitter. Infidelity is a rough thing to get over and to see her girls there idolizing their father had to kill her. I don't think she hated Ennis or anything- I think resented him is more likely.
All those scenes of her at the kitchen table, thinking, brooding, with the coffee untouched...
Her face when Ennis took off "fishin'" when she just told him about this job at the power plant...
She couldn't possibly still love him after all that...
And remember the "sex" scene that night or soon after, when she almost deliberately goading him into stop having sex with her...
Hating him may be too strong a word, but loving him? Then again, hate and love are often said to be closely related. She may still love him, but also hate him at the same time, for all the lies he told, all the lack of ambition in his life, all the obsession with Ennis....
-
Yes that it how I see it too. That something "snapped" in Jack after that divorce debacle.
I did like the little smirk Lureen gave when Jack told off LD, as well as the nod to Bobby. I've always held the notion that while Jack's heart lie with Ennis that he and Lureen had a somewhat decent relationship even if it was more friends than anything. And that scene with that silent "You listen to your father" type of nod sort of shows that they do manage to support each other.
Monroe is just out of it- how does he not hear his pregnant wife screaming at her ex-husband in the kitchen? You can hear silverware dropping and he's off in la la land. %&) But you clearly see the girls do adore their daddy. I like how they sort of manipulated things- not sure if manipulated is the right word but when they started asking Ennis about riding broncs I think it was their was of showing Monroe that Ennis would always be their daddy.
Jack is clearly frustrated here. (ya think? ;)) Before he gets up to carve the turkey I always see him thinking "What the hell am I doing here? I shouldn't be here."
Jack and Lureen are an interesting couple. They clearly like each other a lot, but there is no passion in it. Sex was non existent and romance is nil. I don't even know if there is much of a friendship except the minimum required of two people living together. They are more friendly than friends, in the sense that they don't do much together, shared any real common interests, now that they don't rodeo any more. Their only common bond is Bobby. Without their son, I think Jack might have walked out and lived near Riverton to be closer to Ennis. Lureen was clearly upset when Ennis mentioned they herded sheep together on Brokeback one summer. She felt left out, almost betray, as Alma felt, by Jack's constantly talking about "his favorite place". Her telling Jack to get his buddy to come to Texas for a change was her way of trying to get back into his life. No wonder Jack suggested Texas to Ennis. Too bad he got rejected, yet again. Poor Jack, so much love to give, so little acceptance in his life. :(
-
This is an amazing thread. I've always felt the two scenes were pivotal in the movie's development. And you got Alma pegged, aintfoolin. IMO, Alma was portrayed to perfection with a much deeper character than was in the short story. She was definitely not comfortable that Ennis was sitting at the table. Then when Ennis made up stories about his rodeo days, she was triggered into asking him about his other lies. And one motivation may be that she want him out of her life for good. She most certainly knows him enough to predict his reactions. The little look and exchange in the grocery story when he dropped of the girls was rich. After she said what about my job...Ennis gave her that look which says, here we go, like before the July 4th scene.
Alma probably knew Ennis was going to explode and then leave, and never to come back, not even when the girls ask him or invite him. Ennis was definitely insensitive to say "once burned". Just like those other times with Jack, when the simplest common sense response would have saved him a lot of heartache...dumbass...
:(
I should correct my earlier post to read " Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned". But that said, it is the irony of the the fact that here is Ennis sitting at her Thanksgiving table with their offspring, representing her past life, while now carrying the offspring of her new life with Monroe. Imo this speaks to something "unresolved" in her life. Her anger may also be triggered by knowing that she will be forever tied to Ennis thru the girls, though she's feeling very resentful towards him, probably for the rest of her life.
The "once burned" comment implied to Alma that Ennis was playing the "victim" somehow , when obviously she felt that spot was reserved for her and the girls.
-
I should correct my earlier post to read " Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned". But that said, it is the irony of the the fact that here is Ennis sitting at her Thanksgiving table with their offspring, representing her past life, while now carrying the offspring of her new life with Monroe. Imo this speaks to something "unresolved" in her life. Her anger may also be triggered by knowing that she will be forever tied to Ennis thru the girls, though she's feeling very resentful towards him, probably for the rest of her life.
The "once burned" comment implied to Alma that Ennis was playing the "victim" somehow , when obviously she felt that spot was reserved for her and the girls.
I agree with you 100%, aintfooling, but the other Thanksgiving scene is equally pivotal in the movie, and the "woman scorned..." title would not be appropriate there. I like the Thanksgiving title because it is a carefully chosen holiday on the part of the movie's creators (not just the screenplay writers, producers, but perhaps also the directors, and actors). Thanksgiving is the appropriate title, IMO, because it echoes what Ennis said by the river side after the reunion...sending a prayer of thanks...little did he know of the future. Yet, in the further distant future, would Ennis be thankful for the twenty years of occasional meeting with Jack?
I think we somethings miss the half-full glass when we see the half empty glass to often, and to intensely. Despite the tragedy of their love unconnected, Jack and Ennis had fulfilling lives with their respective family, if they put as much energy into them as they did on each other. Jack had a good time raising Bobby ...until Mexico...Ennis had a good time with the girls, and even Alma, until she found out the truth. Ennis should have been more honest with Alma but that's like asking him to be more than he was, given his traumatic childhood. If Ennis had been more gracious at Monroe's house, and more considerate of Alma's feelings, he might have been happier, even with only the occasional meetings with Jack. He might even have been more ready to move to Texas. Alma would certainly support that idea, and allow him to skip some child support...BTW, I don't know how the system works, but once Alma got married, and the kids live with Monroe, shouldn't the payments be reduced, or something? Was Ennis using the payments as just another excuse? Jack would certainly know about that, and probably felt Ennis was just using one excuse after another. Just my two cents thrown in. I have no idea how child support payments would work in Wyoming back in the '70s.
-
In a perfect world, ex-spouses would get along well together and veryone would live happily everafter, but that seldom happens. There was just too much bitterness between Ennis and Alma, especially after Alma had seen what she saw ( the reunion kiss and the unused fishing gear). There was just no way she could just "let bygones be bygones". IMO she was just hurt too deeply to ever get over it. However, I don't think that kept her from loving Ennis. He was still her first love and the father of her girls.
The dynamic between Ennis and Alma is so interesting to conjecture about. There is so much water under the bridge where those two are concerned.
-
These are people who know where they are; they may not like it entirely or even at all but at least they know it.
Exactly. I do think that none of them liked it entirely. This is where all the tension in the Thanksgiving scene originate -- the fact that we know that there is a lot of stuff boiling underneath the seemingly placid images of family life and tradition.
-
It is interesting that Jack's appearance really changed at this point, with the mustache, and he lost that sense of youth and vitality, of adventure. It's almost like he was now resigned to living from day to day.
There is certainly something different about Jack by the time the Thanksgiving scenes are shown. We see him as more calculating -- in a sense, more hypocritical about the realities and the pretenses.
-
So in a way this is sopme sort of coming-of-age period for both men - the romance of the first years is over and reality has to be confronted - Ennis is no longer part of Alma's life; while she is embarking on a new future he is literally and metaphorically out in the cold, literally and metaphorically (after the fight) a loser withlittel to lok forward to. and Jack can no longer dream; what's in Childress is what he has, with littel prospect of getting anything else. S maybe this is the time when they put away childish things?
Oh, and the quotation (from Conreve)is:
Heav'n hath no rage like love to hatred turn'd,
Nor hell a fury like a woman scorn'd.
And both are true.
-
So in a way this is sopme sort of coming-of-age period for both men - the romance of the first years is over and reality has to be confronted - Ennis is no longer part of Alma's life; while she is embarking on a new future he is literally and metaphorically out in the cold, literally and metaphorically (after the fight) a loser withlittel to lok forward to. and Jack can no longer dream; what's in Childress is what he has, with littel prospect of getting anything else. S maybe this is the time when they put away childish things?
Oh, and the quotation (from Conreve)is:
Heav'n hath no rage like love to hatred turn'd,
Nor hell a fury like a woman scorn'd.
And both are true.
Must the sense of dillusionment here be inevitable? Perhaps a coming of age could have taken the form of positive liberation on Ennis's part. Or am I just dreaming here? Had Ennis taken the leap of faiith, might have things flowered, rather than withered?
-
So in a way this is sopme sort of coming-of-age period for both men - the romance of the first years is over and reality has to be confronted - Ennis is no longer part of Alma's life; while she is embarking on a new future he is literally and metaphorically out in the cold, literally and metaphorically (after the fight) a loser withlittel to lok forward to. and Jack can no longer dream; what's in Childress is what he has, with littel prospect of getting anything else. S maybe this is the time when they put away childish things?
Oh, and the quotation (from Conreve)is:
Heav'n hath no rage like love to hatred turn'd,
Nor hell a fury like a woman scorn'd.
And both are true.
Thanks, WW for the quote. Is Conreve a person or a play? I'd love to read the rest of it.
What is great about Jack's love is that it never turned to hatred. He almost started to turn in the last meeting scene, after the Mexico exchange, when Ennis threatened him with murder. But in spite of all that, after he said, "I wish I knew how to quit you" and Ennis broke down, with "I am nothing, I am nowhere" Jack's love for Ennis overwhelms his own sense of discontent, of dissatisfaction, and he went to embrace Ennis again. This is what I love about Jack, his faithful unending love for Ennis, no matter what. The man is a saint.
-
Thanks, WW for the quote. Is Conreve a person or a play? I'd love to read the rest of it.
OT: I think WW is referring to Congreve, the poet and playwright.
What is great about Jack's love is that it never turned to hatred. He almost started to turn in the last meeting scene, after the Mexico exchange, when Ennis threatened him with murder. But in spite of all that, after he said, "I wish I knew how to quit you" and Ennis broke down, with "I am nothing, I am nowhere" Jack's love for Ennis overwhelms his own sense of discontent, of dissatisfaction, and he went to embrace Ennis again. This is what I love about Jack, his faithful unending love for Ennis, no matter what. The man is a saint.
To hatred, no. But I got a sense that there was increasing anger and frustration. We see it first in the Thanksgiving scene with the Newsomes. But even if all this points to perhaps greater anger and frustration with Ennis, I do agree that it was never hatred. Jack couldn't help it, when it came to Ennis. Not Lureen. Not with the Newsomes.
-
LC, it comes from a play by Congreve, called "The Mourning Bride" (1697). It's never performed now, as far as I know. It's his only tragedy ( described as inflated and self-consciously poetic" by one commentator"). The only one of his plays done these days is "The Way of the World", which is one of the best-known C18th comedies of manners and is still easily available in print.
-
OT: I think WW is referring to Congreve, the poet and playwright.
To hatred, no. But I got a sense that there was increasing anger and frustration. We see it first in the Thanksgiving scene with the Newsomes. But even if all this points to perhaps greater anger and frustration with Ennis, I do agree that it was never hatred. Jack couldn't help it, when it came to Ennis. Not Lureen. Not with the Newsomes.
Thanks tpe, and WW. I found the mourning bride, and it is "self-consciously poetic", but I like its poetry, so I downloaded a copy from someplace.
Back to topic, I agree, tpe, that Jack does not have hatred in his heart and so he never hated event the loathsome old man Newsome. He was very angry at the thanksgiving scene, but he never hated the man. Would his anger change into hate if the old man persisted in his arrogance? Perhaps. Would his anger change into hate if Ennis did not break down and change his stubborn dumbass way? Perhaps. We will never know. I'd like to think that Jack will never harbour hatred for very long in his heart because his nature is loving, as he caressed the little lambs, and carry the little sheep across the steams, as he ministered the bleeding Ennis after the bear, and as he held onto Ennis in SNIT, and in the last meeting scene when Ennis brokedown.
It just occurred to me that the frustration in Jack during the Thanksgiving scene was also the irony of not having Ennis with him, to give thanks, as they did after the reunion watching Ennis sending a prayer of thanks to heaven. I wonder, if for twenty years, every Thanksgiving reminds Jack of that real meaningful thanksgiving dinner of beans or whatever...Their shared meals of simple beans and elk is far more sumptuous than any dinner feast of turkey yam and ham because their love turns the simplest moment in life into a joy to remember for eternity. Without each other, every moment is lonely and agony without end. No wonder Jack said, not enough time, (together) never enough time.
-
I'd like to think that Jack will never harbour hatred for very long in his heart because his nature is loving, as he caressed the little lambs, and carry the little sheep across the steams, as he ministered the bleeding Ennis after the bear, and as he held onto Ennis in SNIT, and in the last meeting scene when Ennis brokedown.
It just occurred to me that the frustration in Jack during the Thanksgiving scene was also the irony of not having Ennis with him, to give thanks, as they did after the reunion watching Ennis sending a prayer of thanks to heaven. I wonder, if for twenty years, every Thanksgiving reminds Jack of that real meaningful thanksgiving dinner of beans or whatever...Their shared meals of simple beans and elk is far more sumptuous than any dinner feast of turkey yam and ham because their love turns the simplest moment in life into a joy to remember for eternity. Without each other, every moment is lonely and agony without end. No wonder Jack said, not enough time, (together) never enough time.
*o) Oh Lance, so beautiful post!!! You've made me cry again!!! :\'( Jack's nature is loving....., so true; and about their shared meals......you're so right cowboy, together the world is so beautiful, just perfect, but...there's never enough time...*sigh*..... :\'( :\'(
-
*o) Oh Lance, so beautiful post!!! You've made me cry again!!! :\'( Jack's nature is loving....., so true; and about their shared meals......you're so right cowboy, together the world is so beautiful, just perfect, but...there's never enough time...*sigh*..... :\'( :\'(
I am sorry, babytammy7, even as I typed my last post I had a feeling that it might be PBS inducing, but I had to write what I felt, what felt true to me. And having never thought much about Jack's feelings before, it just occurred to me, responding to tpe's observation on Jack's anger and frustration, that every Thanksgiving holiday would remind him of Ennis giving thanks that night. After all, that was when he proposed.
Facing the true feelings had helped me these months to deal with them, and although I resonate with Jack's frustration and loneliness over twenty years of Thanksgiving dinners, I have also learned over the years Ennis' acceptance and stoic grace, so beautifully acted by Heath in those final scenes. And as Eduardo said, life is a series of memories that we treasure. Future memories are not for us to plan and expect, but are what happens to us, when we least expected, whatever we feel. So instead of feeling sad while waiting for the unexpected, I have decided to feel good with whatever I can give thanks today, and welcome the unexpected with open arms and open heart. It is okay to shed tears and feel sad, but it is also okay to smile and feel good. Neither takes away from the other, and each enhances the other by providing contrast and context.
I hope that my posts bring to you as many smile as tears. I will try to give a bit of warning the next time PBS inducing passages are coming....[PBS warning]...okay?
Have a nice weekend. Vancouver has beautiful sunshine today. I am going out for a walk in the cold sunny day...and give thanks to the beautiful people here on EnnisJack.com.
:ghug: :^^) :c) ^f^
-
I hope that my posts bring to you as many smile as tears. I will try to give a bit of warning the next time PBS inducing passages are coming....[PBS warning]...okay?
Have a nice weekend. Vancouver has beautiful sunshine today. I am going out for a walk in the cold sunny day...and give thanks to the beautiful people here on EnnisJack.com.
:ghug: :^^) :c) ^f^
*o) AMEN to that cowboy!!! ^f^ Thank you so much for your beautiful words!!! And the "PBS warning" is a good idea!!! :clap: :clap: Though I love read your posts, you know that, and I will read them always, no matter that they can be so sad for me.
I love Canada (I want to live there in a future). Have a very nice weekend friend!!! :^^)
-
*o) AMEN to that cowboy!!! ^f^ Thank you so much for your beautiful words!!! And the "PBS warning" is a good idea!!! :clap: :clap: Though I love read your posts, you know that, and I will read them always, no matter that they can be so sad for me.
I love Canada (I want to live there in a future). Have a very nice weekend friend!!! :^^)
%) Amiga, I will so enjoy having you for a neighbor, and meeting you in a brokie meet.
In the mean time, please don't feel sad, not even when you read my posts with [PBS warnings], because they are not meant to be sad, just to show how I feel how I respond from the scenes in the movie, and from the resonance in my past.
Have a good weekend, amiga.
:ghug: :^^) :c)
-
Back to topic, I agree, tpe, that Jack does not have hatred in his heart and so he never hated event the loathsome old man Newsome. He was very angry at the thanksgiving scene, but he never hated the man. Would his anger change into hate if the old man persisted in his arrogance? Perhaps. Would his anger change into hate if Ennis did not break down and change his stubborn dumbass way? Perhaps. We will never know. I'd like to think that Jack will never harbour hatred for very long in his heart because his nature is loving, as he caressed the little lambs, and carry the little sheep across the steams, as he ministered the bleeding Ennis after the bear, and as he held onto Ennis in SNIT, and in the last meeting scene when Ennis brokedown.
It just occurred to me that the frustration in Jack during the Thanksgiving scene was also the irony of not having Ennis with him, to give thanks, as they did after the reunion watching Ennis sending a prayer of thanks to heaven. I wonder, if for twenty years, every Thanksgiving reminds Jack of that real meaningful thanksgiving dinner of beans or whatever...Their shared meals of simple beans and elk is far more sumptuous than any dinner feast of turkey yam and ham because their love turns the simplest moment in life into a joy to remember for eternity. Without each other, every moment is lonely and agony without end. No wonder Jack said, not enough time, (together) never enough time.
I agree, I felt that Ennis was a hidden character in the Texas Thanskgiving scene, and Jack was certainly the "elephant in the room" in the Thanksgiving scene in Riverton. In the former case, immediately following the Mexico scene, you really get the feeling that it was all a facade -- all externals while things were seeting underneath.
I felt that Jack could only be truly angry with Ennis, ironically, since it is my feeling that he was only angry when he really cared.
-
I do think Jack disliked Newsome. When Newsome visited Lureen and brought the formula and threw the keys to Jack to go bring it in, Jack just kind of grinned -- a put-upon grin, IMO-- and did it. As time went by, all we can assume is that there were many more incidents in which Newsome disrespected Jack. No one can ignore this type of treatment forever. The Thanksgiving scene was just the breaking point for Jack. Finally, he had had enough and reacted strongly. You don't talk to someone and call him an ignorant sonofabitch if you love him! It took a lot for jack to get that riled -- God knows, he propably held his temper for years.
You made a good point about Jack missing Ennis on Thanksgiving. That's enough to have put him in a bad mood right there. Again, he was holding in his aloneness in the midst of a room full of people. But he was used to that; had been doing it for years.
-
I do think Jack disliked Newsome. When Newsome visited Lureen and brought the formula and threw the keys to Jack to go bring it in, Jack just kind of grinned -- a put-upon grin, IMO-- and did it. As time went by, all we can assume is that there were many more incidents in which Newsome disrespected Jack. No one can ignore this type of treatment forever. The Thanksgiving scene was just the breaking point for Jack. Finally, he had had enough and reacted strongly. You don't talk to someone and call him an ignorant sonofabitch if you love him! It took a lot for jack to get that riled -- God knows, he propably held his temper for years.
You made a good point about Jack missing Ennis on Thanksgiving. That's enough to have put him in a bad mood right there. Again, he was holding in his aloneness in the midst of a room full of people. But he was used to that; had been doing it for years.
I think the key in the Thanksgiving scene for Jack was not so much the old man disrepected him, but that the old man disrepected him in front of his son, and in such a way as to suggest that Jack was less of a man for not allowing Bobby to watch football during dinner, a Thanksgiving dinner that his mama spent hours preparing. It was a matter of discipline, and teaching Bobby values, important values. As Aristotle said, it is not about getting angry, or not getting angry. It is about getting angry at the right people, at the right moment, for the right reason, in just the right way. Jack did it perfectly. He stood up against the old man using the kind of language that the old man understood, and stopped just in time, to not cause another scene. I wanted to go up to him and said, way to go cowboy! Jack is not bothered by loneliness so much as by not having Ennis with him. Once he felt the completeness with Ennis, it is unimaginable to be incomplete, to be separated. He will always be lonely without Ennis...never enough...
-
I do think Jack disliked Newsome. When Newsome visited Lureen and brought the formula and threw the keys to Jack to go bring it in, Jack just kind of grinned -- a put-upon grin, IMO-- and did it. As time went by, all we can assume is that there were many more incidents in which Newsome disrespected Jack. No one can ignore this type of treatment forever. The Thanksgiving scene was just the breaking point for Jack. Finally, he had had enough and reacted strongly. You don't talk to someone and call him an ignorant sonofabitch if you love him! It took a lot for jack to get that riled -- God knows, he propably held his temper for years.
You made a good point about Jack missing Ennis on Thanksgiving. That's enough to have put him in a bad mood right there. Again, he was holding in his aloneness in the midst of a room full of people. But he was used to that; had been doing it for years.
I think it was Ennis that made all the humiliation bearable. Didn't Jack push for the reunion after the scene you refer to -- where he was humiliated by his father-in-law? Likewise, the breaking point that was reached in the Thanksgiving scene was precipitated by the botched meeting after the divorce.
I like your last sentences. In the end of the Texas Thanksgiving scene, you do get the feeling that Jack was alone, in the midst of the family.
-
I think the key in the Thanksgiving scene for Jack was not so much the old man disrepected him, but that the old man disrepected him in front of his son, and in such a way as to suggest that Jack was less of a man for not allowing Bobby to watch football during dinner, a Thanksgiving dinner that his mama spent hours preparing. It was a matter of discipline, and teaching Bobby values, important values. As Aristotle said, it is not about getting angry, or not getting angry. It is about getting angry at the right people, at the right moment, for the right reason, in just the right way. Jack did it perfectly. He stood up against the old man using the kind of language that the old man understood, and stopped just in time, to not cause another scene. I wanted to go up to him and said, way to go cowboy! Jack is not bothered by loneliness so much as by not having Ennis with him. Once he felt the completeness with Ennis, it is unimaginable to be incomplete, to be separated. He will always be lonely without Ennis...never enough...
Very good point. I think Jack was willing to let the elder Newsome have his way, up until it touched on his authority over his own son.
-
Also, let's not forget the Thxgiving scenes in Texas comes directly after the Mexico scene.
When I saw Jack disappear in the dark alley with the hustler at the end of that scene, I thought his life would not be the same again, some part of the youthful, hopeful Jack had died after Ennis rejected him in the post-divorce scene.
So I thought it was very poignant that in the following Thxgiving scene Jack would appear changed somehow, more bitter, disillusioned, on one hand, but also more assertive, at least of his place in his household.
Perhaps reasserting his parenting rights over his son was not only aimed at his father-in-law; maybe his father-in-law's attempt to assert his authority at the dinner table was just the last drop for Jack's frustration & bitterness to come to the boil, not just frustration at being upstaged by Lureen's father ever since he married Lureen, but a more general frustration in his relationship with Ennis and being given false hopes when Ennis wrote him that card after his divorce.
-
Also, let's not forget the Thxgiving scenes in Texas comes directly after the Mexico scene.
When I saw Jack disappear in the dark alley with the hustler at the end of that scene, I thought his life would not be the same again, some part of the youthful, hopeful Jack had died after Ennis rejected him in the post-divorce scene.
So I thought it was very poignant that in the following Thxgiving scene Jack would appear changed somehow, more bitter, disillusioned, on one hand, but also more assertive, at least of his place in his household.
Perhaps reasserting his parenting rights over his son was not only aimed at his father-in-law; maybe his father-in-law's attempt to assert his authority at the dinner table was just the last drop for Jack's frustration & bitterness to come to the boil, not just frustration at being upstaged by Lureen's father ever since he married Lureen, but a more general frustration in his relationship with Ennis and being given false hopes when Ennis wrote him that card after his divorce.
Yes, I think Jack's feeling that he lacked control over his relationship with Ennis pushed him to take on a more assertive stance. I do think this found an outlet in the Thanksgiving scene, as you said. It was a way of expressing all the frustration inside of him, especially over the matter of ther unfulfilled dream of a sweet life with Ennis.