Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: Tony on Dec 29, 2007, 04:23 PM
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Recently, Jackster found a definitive interview with Annie Proulx (see: "Was Ennis Gay?-pg. 15) in which she said Brokeback Mountain was,
for our two boys, like a wormhole, where they entered one way in space-time and left into another. Am probably messing up the physics, but
a wormhole happens, supposedly, from a black hole, where there is so much matter, everything collapses into, like, a tiny dot, from gravity
breaking down the atoms. And that could happen if two stars collided.
But enough with the physics--it's just a metaphor, anyway, but maybe we could do something with what she said. Ennis and Jack were two
souls that collided outside Aguirre's trailer, and am beginning to think we could go somewhere with what Annie said. Where were they before?
What "gravity" caused them to collide? And what were they as they came down from the mountain?
Think back to that first meeting. What did Jack see? Did he see Ennis unable to meet his eyes, Ennis shuffling from one foot to another, shyly?
Did Jack see the first male that was fully virile but also non-threatening? Did he see vulnerability? Ennis didn't sneer him off, Ennis didn't know
WHAT to do and showed it. Was this what Jack needed, to finally see someone who wasn't a poser or a jerk? And how about Ennis, what did
he see? A friendly guy, but what to do, there, as Ennis had no friends. Move to the bar scene, where Ennis is bug-eyed over Jack's casual
take on the vagaries of life, and yet was himself lively, real, no phony, and determined...to talk. Were they---pre-disposed and so there were
gravitational forces (oops-no more physics)?
How did this develop on the mountain? The little ways of each? And how did they leave the mountain, as Annie said, into a new existence,
altered in space-time? Been done before, in this forum? Maybe. But in light of Annie's own explanation, could we do better with the before
(rarely fully developed), the during, and then the after? If anybody's willing, that first meeting might be a good start, the social interaction,
the body language, and how it all was there, in those moments, from all the years of their lives before. Might be interesting to do it all over,
from Annie's explanation, or, maybe not. We'd have to go into really small details, and also larger themes. Might work, might not. Your call.
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Gee Tony, why don’t you try and do sumthin’ BIG? ;)
A big bite here, hope you can chew all that eventually comes a it.
You got more cajones than me. O0
Where were they before? The collision seems laid out by Annie in her simple, incredibly spartan introduction:
They were raised on small, poor ranches in opposite corners of the
state, Jack Twist in Lightning Flat, up on the Montana border, Ennis del Mar
from around Sage, near the Utah line, both high school drop out country boys
with no prospects, brought up to hard work and privation, both rough
mannered, rough spoken, inured to the stoic life.
Raised in different locations, but she makes a point of saying “both” a few times which binds them together as a pair (of losers?) before we even get to know them. IMO the collision was the result of being on the same track at the same time headed in the same direction. There weren’t many different tracks available as options for either one.
One thing we very specifically don’t learn much about, but which I find very intriguing is the enticing way she makes evident Jack’s previous year up on Brokeback. Whut happened in ’62? Was there an “Ennis” that year? What happened to Jack that summer? Curious minds want to know. Don't know if this what your lookin' for but it's a start.
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Mmmm, never know what you might mean by big ones, Jackster, so will let that one, uh, dangle.
But as to whether there was a previous "Ennis", myself, would have to say not likely. I believe Annie said they were both inexperienced, but I
can't back that up. Also, there's Aguirre, who was always snooping. Then, too, Jack didn't do well with other guys and so he wrote off whoever
was up there the year before, and vice-versa.
Even so, the background of being alone with another guy, for so long, may have brought the possibilities into Jack's mind and so he might have
been prepped for Ennis, in the sense that---it probably had crossed his mind, sub-consciously. Am keeping in mind that Jack didn't make his
move FNIT right away. In fact he was grumpy, and then...fell asleep. Woke up, still whiskey-drunk, Ennis near to him, and then he made his
move, sleepily. But we all see Jack differently, and many see him as somewhat bi- before he ever met Ennis. Either way, the year before
was a dud, as Jack would never have let a long summer fling just evaporate. There were no other momento's in his closet, of summer loves.
And what was Ennis doing? So little said there, too. One thing seems to strongly stand out for both of them---neither had any close male
friends. Nobody to answer to. Nobody to compare the new guy to. Ennis a loner by choice. Jack a loner because he was too lively for the
code of the west.
Alas, the "big ones" are still dangling. Dammit, Jackster, now I'm getting a little, uh, mischievous. Better stop before I cross the line.
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I don't think there was an "Ennis" the summer before. We don't know for sure if Jack was up there alone or not but I would assume that there were at least two people on the mountain in '62- doesn't seem like a one person job, but what do I know. Did Aguirre snoop in the summer of '62? Maybe, maybe not. If he did then it would seem likely that he would have seen something (had something actually been going on). Or did he choose to snoop in '63 because of the 42 dead sheep the prior summer? In '64 when Jack goes back to look for work again Aguirre lets him know what he saw. In another thread it was discussed as to why Aguirre refused Jack work- was it because he saw Jack and Ennis or was he just a business man that was mad that they were slacking off on the job? I personally think it was what he saw. If it was business only then why hire Jack again at all when he was mad because of the 42 dead sheep? I think the mention of the prior summer was to show that it wasn't a matter of "convenience" but rather who was with Jack- there was something about Ennis, some connection that they both felt.
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IMO:
It's not the first time I've read in this forum, questioning Jack's motives FNIT, his summer before he met Ennis, did he have thing with some other guy? The burden , (if you could call it that), was always on Jack. He indeed make the move, but it was Ennis who followed through. It's not that he didn't know what was it he was about do to Jack, he knew all too well. "Yes, I want you too."
It wasn't so much these men grew up in a vacuum, Jack young was on his own, travelling, working here and there hereding sheep or rodeo working really hard to be a "cowboy" and proud of his minor accomplishments, remember his silver buckle he showed off to Ennis. Ennis I bet had to go to the church social with Alma while courting her. He held her hand, got down on one knee to ask her to marry him. They function before they met, and had lives before they met. What happened when they met. Maybe it was the need for an emotional connection that had to be extended to the physical, there was no limits, it wasn't possible, but so very natural.
Jack may have been "riding more than bulls, and not rolling his own', and Ennis this was something he hadn't done before but no instruction manual needed, both went head first in that wormhole, was more of a merging than a collision neither could separate themselves from each other after that, what collided was what each saw after that night. The dream of "a sweet life", and the nightmare of "tire irons" colliding into each other, that's the tragedy for me
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Hi---LJN,....it's really some people's take on Jack that he was always looking for a guy, but I agree with you, about the summer before.
"..There was something about Ennis.." is where am certain you are right and, for me, and going by the film, it goes to the first meeting in those
very small things, back & forth, in body language. Ennis, shy, puzzled at this apparition in a clunky old pick-up. Jack, spotting, maybe, an ideal-
that true western male but without the bravado or self-certainty. Ennis radiated self-reliance, non-aggression, leave-me alone. The brush-off,
those first few minutes would speak opposites to Jack- brushed off again, but this time by somebody not against him for who he was. And yet also,
just the faintest, slightest, trace from Ennis, of recognition and interest.
Maybe tying in with this, Jackster's clear point, these were two losers, headed in the same direction, and they recognized this in each other.
I don't believe we are re-working stale material, by the way, although no one has suggested that. Am really impressed with Annie's comments,
and think we could polish up a lot and even dig some more.
OT-BabyTammy has posted one helluva video in Treasure Box, and anyone who misses it, well....misses a great one.
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MG, was posting while you were, and so didn't read it until now. I may have it wrong but you seem to see the collision ON the mountain,
while I kinda see it at the first few minutes after meeting. Will re-read your post and try to do better later.
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Yes for me the mountain was where the "collision" occurred. There was no better place for it, both went up there with an idea of who they were, what they wanted, but came down from that mountain different, totally different from the first day in Aguirre's office. All Ennis wanted was to marry Alma, all Jack wanted was his own spread and men like Aguirre could kiss his butt.
But what they found on that Mountain, was something that they spent twenty years desperately trying hold on to. The mountain for me is a definite player it tested their resolve after FNIT, through the storms and the snow and the mixing of the sheep, they worked together, and the mountains awarded them with its isolation, and its vastness that brought an intimacy to them they never expereinced with any one else. Brokeback made it possible for them to discover themselves and each other. In the ss they never returned to Brokeback, I've always wondered why.
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Manhattangirl, was re-reading the first of the SS and just getting ready to post, when you did, so I guess we're in sync this time. The film
shows some level of low-grade electrical sparks flying, outside of Aguirre's trailor, so much so, that it supports a really romantic version that they
were meant for each other, predestined, almost. Going to the SS, though, we find Annie saying they were glad to find a companion "where none
had been expected", up on the mountain, later. Yet Annie was to use flashback, as she went on, to later sucker-punch the reader, and so she
underplayed the early, then developed it later, as something important that she WANTED us to miss (otherwise no understanding, until the very
end, it was love, not an affair). So the SS is not incompatible with sparks flying, from the first. Still, there are going to be various takes on this,
and your seeing the development as later is easily supportable.
Myself, am not saying love at first sight......but I admit, I want to. Intuition, male intuition, tells me something was up, when they first met,
and that each knew something unusual was there in the other. Tailor-made, but not yet worn to see if the fit was right. And here, I don't mean
sex, I mean, tailor-made for the companionship needs in each other. Then, step by step, the clothes fit, one by one, until fully on.
By the way, the acting by Heath and Jake, in those first scenes, has every nuance that am talking about---Ennis shifting his feet, uneasy,
Jack looking him over after being rebuffed, leaning up against his pick-up with that defiant "oh, yeah?" look, intimating- am on to you, dude,
we'll see about this one. Sparks flying, MG---the acting was incredibly well-done and says---something's up from the start.
We can agree to disagree. As to why they never returned to Brokeback, am not sure, but as it was pasture land, it would not be so private.
But there could be much more to that and you never suggested what you thought it could be.
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When Ennis looked up and slowly took in Jack after he got out of the pickup the attraction began. Ever so faint but the magnetism was there. Two opposites in personality born out of the commonality of hard but different lives brushed against each other in the bar. Ennis subltely let him know he found him interesting, Jack outright let him know through his interest in his Mom and Dad. They moved into the channel of the black hole growing ever closer as the seeds of their love sprouted and grew. as their Coronas touched the heat of their passions slowly grew until in the first night in the tent they under went fusion, forever changing the course of their lives. At the end of the summer they neared the end of the hole and the forces of society and coventionality pulled them apart. Yet the magnetism of their true love kept them in touch.
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Tony totally understand, there is a thread concerning non verbal communication somewhere in here, can't remember so long ago, which is just what you're discussing when they first met,
But your take on the first meeting blew me away, "Male Intuition" aggressiveness, rough, "I'll show you", whereas my "Female Intuition" led me to believe that Jack saw the shyness in Ennis, his averting of his, eyes, the shuffling of his feet, changes Jack's demeanor he wasn't going to spook this guy. (Tony, did I miss understand please let me know), Jack eases in to it, he figured Ennis had his own " low startle point" In the bar with gentle prodding Jack got Ennis to actually open up to a point that he felt safe enough to speak of his parents, how he was raised, if he had the entry fee in his pocket, he too rodeo. Jack was able to get in Ennis head, to find out who this man he was going spend a heck a lot time with, maybe this is something no one ever done in Ennis's life asked him who he was "explain yourself to me".
As to why they never returned to Brokeback in ss, may it what you said it's pasture land would not be private, maybe it was place too much for them to bare during their trouble lives I don't know.
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Manhattangirl, I just ate up that post of yours like a piece of apple pie! "low startle point"----best description I can think of for Jack's sizing
Ennis up, and then going slow. I believe you also saw they were VERY interested in each other and beginning to adjust, that soon. Ennis not
brushing him off but listening, in the bar, with rapt attention. And Jack, as you said, drawing him out, verrry carefully. Yes, there is male intuition
and female intuition and it's not sexist to say so, but between the two of us, we may have gotten it right.
I think in every true love, there isn't a merged couple, but a me, a you, and an us. Them was already working on that "us". But I can still accept
it easily if you hold to the collision happening later, because, repeating myself, they saw quickly they were tailor-made for each other, but.....
you gotta put the suit on one piece at a time to see if it really does fit. Which would allow for sudden recognition of the signals, and also completion
later. Wonderful post MG.
Ragtimecowboy, you pretty much were in that same territory. Haven't read your posts before, but it looks like you have well-developed
views and, er....you're almost as schmoozy romantic as me. Almost. I'd go so far, sometimes, to say they were in love before they ever met.
And now that I've heard Annie saying she felt like her pen was guided by something above, makes you want to say....that was Jack. A real
Jack, from somewhere long ago. At any rate, glad to meet you, cowboy and I hope ragtime is near to honky-tonk because that's what our boys
got into, some hot times in the country.
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Well, my opinion is that they saw and heard enough to complement in each other in the scene in the bar.
There was enough aknowledged there, that they both knew they could at least be friends. I feel their similar backgrounds and culture revealed a little common familiarity in each other. and this allowed both to decide that this is some one whom they could deal with in an isolated work environment over a period of time. I love Tony's analogy " putting the suit on" one piece at a time". The perfect time and place, a perfect "fit".
The first phase of love came as friendship as Jack introduced himself, using his first and last name , where Ennis "stopped at Ennis" as if he really did'nt want to say " Del Mar", maybe Ennis felt uncomfortable about it, I don't know. But Jack's "pleased to meet you Ennis Del Mar" made it seem as if Ennis's name had a "ring" to it, I believe endearing himself to Ennis more for friendly possibilities. . (or was he teasing? imo, they both had weird names, but that's another thread)) ;) :) making Ennis feel proud and good about himself, not awkward. A small gesture among many, giving Ennis a feel of acceptance and belonging. Don't think Ennis overlooked that.
Then, no macho "manning it up" in any competitive or intimidating manner in the bar, Jack shares his experiences from the summer before. Then , after working together like a well-oiled machine, Jack picks up where they left off in the {'most words spoke in a year' scene), imo,the second phase of love. By this time, Ennis is opening up in a romantic sense to Jack's reaching out to him. Again, Ennis feeling pleased and good about himself, thanx to Jack. Jack has gained a trust within Ennis. Also, by this time I feel they are getting closer .Both know something is happening. Ennis knows there's something about Jack that makes him think pride and good of himself.
Ennis's brother and sister had did "right by him" the best they knew how, but I feel Jack knew Ennis was lacking at least basic social skills includng, but not limited to TALKING! Jack had Ennis talking and he knew it. This followed by certain implied actions by Ennis , I believe; an awkard "courting" of Jack, clueing Jack in with his own quiet way to where his head was at , concerning feelings beyond just friendship. Jack read Ennis correctly. In a seemingly unconsious way, both were getting through to each other.
Phase three falls somewhere within the " Water walkin Jesus scene, and Ennis's "virginal"? confession. By this time I feel they are both wanting. Within their confusion and non-verbal communication, I feel Ennis finds Jack attractive physically and sexually, and v/v to the point where both have a need to express their feelings in some way. FNIT, Jack makes the first move, spontaneus for the most part,, but not carelessly undertaken by either, those feelings are explored, SNIT Ennis answers,,feelings are validated on both their parts.
Both felt.... whatever this is we're feeling, I like it. How can something so wrong, feel so right? .. }. as opposed to "I anit queer?....Me niether? ...Hmmm.... What a leap! Imo, wether they collided sooner or later, when it all boiled down ,it was love right ,or wrong. Jack "n" Ennis forever!. MO.
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Aintfoolin, you got me to thinking more, this time about Jack's male intuition. You're right, they started reading each others signals, but IMO
Ennis was so off to himself, before Jack, he didn't broadcast or receive signals. Just hung his head and did his job and accepted there wasn't much
for him, from other people. Jack, on the other hand, had developed some kind of intuition, probably from being so outgoing and yet often brushed
off by others. His intuition, I think, told him much about Ennis at first glance, and was bolstered by each succeeding hour, to where he could
make Ennis feel at ease. And there went the beginnings of Ennis' ability to broadcast and receive, and intuit. First contact with another real
human being, maybe, given the poses and restrictions enforced by the Code of the West.
When we get to sexual signals, I really gotta say this emphatically---I don't care HOW straight a guy thinks he is, or actually is, there is no
possible way you can reach your late teens without the issue of same-gender doings having crossed your mind, even if only from curiosity.
I think it's been over-done that they were sending sexual signals to each other very early-bull crap--guys briefly notice things about other guys.
However. Aintfoolin. When it got to Ennis, drunk, saying he'd never had the opportunity to do no sinnin', could not agree with you more-that
was some kind of trigger signal, maybe for both. I remember that very well, and believe you are right--it came just before FNIT, and may have
been Ennis saying---maybe. He might try something out. Which would mean signals had developed, but I still say, very, very late.
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Aintfoolin, you got me to thinking more, this time about Jack's male intuition. You're right, they started reading each others signals, but IMO
Ennis was so off to himself, before Jack, he didn't broadcast or receive signals. Just hung his head and did his job and accepted there wasn't much
for him, from other people. Jack, on the other hand, had developed some kind of intuition, probably from being so outgoing and yet often brushed
off by others. His intuition, I think, told him much about Ennis at first glance, and was bolstered by each succeeding hour, to where he could
make Ennis feel at ease. And there went the beginnings of Ennis' ability to broadcast and receive, and intuit. First contact with another real
human being, maybe, given the poses and restrictions enforced by the Code of the West.
When we get to sexual signals, I really gotta say this emphatically---I don't care HOW straight a guy thinks he is, or actually is, there is no
possible way you can reach your late teens without the issue of same-gender doings having crossed your mind, even if only from curiosity.
I think it's been over-done that they were sending sexual signals to each other very early-bull crap--guys briefly notice things about other guys.
However. Aintfoolin. When it got to Ennis, drunk, saying he'd never had the opportunity to do no sinnin', could not agree with you more-that
was some kind of trigger signal, maybe for both. I remember that very well, and believe you are right--it came just before FNIT, and may have
been Ennis saying---maybe. He might try something out. Which would mean signals had developed, but I still say, very, very late.
I couldn't agree more, regarding signals and triggers, do you remember Jack's "hmmm" after Ennis let that piece of information out? Message given and received.
Tony your comment about Jack made me think about him being a rodeo rider, sensing the feel of the horse, I guess you have to learn how to read signals, to know how move, and react, predict the animals movements. (I live in the middle of manhattan what the heck do know about rodeos), I was just thinking maybe thats what he used to sense Ennis. I couldn't help but remember the rodeo clown, and his sensing the signals Jack was sending, and rejected it.
I don't know if this your premise, but Jack and Ennis lived lives before they met wanting, wanting connection to something, someone. Maybe instead of their stars colliding, they were in perfect alignment.
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Hi-Manhattangirl. And Happy New Year!!! Am not so sure Ennis was looking for anyone. Jack was looking. But I feel like Ennis was too
beaten down by life, including poverty, which was a big issue, for Annie. Ennis wasn't looking, but he sure was....needing.
Am really past romantic and into the metaphysical on this love affair. I think they were in love before they ever met and that is so very hard
to explain. That Moody Blues song, I often come back to- "I know you're out there....somewhere.." speaks to this knowing the beloved exists...
somewhere.
As for your living in Manhattan and what do you know about rodeos? Do what....? Walking down the street up there is like riding a bull,
adjusting, every second, to the push and pull of the many others. You underestimate yourself. If you get past a few city blocks there, some
days, you've adjusted well to the movements of others, to avoid collisions, etc. That's a rodeo of its own kind, don't you think?
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From what I've read about the sheep-herding that went on in the West it seesm that it was accepted that two men were used to guard the sheep and that if they were stuck up in some remote place alone together for months the inevitable might happen. This was accepted, even condoned, but left behind when the sheep-herders came back into "normal" society. So there's a sense in which Aguirre ( had he been a real person) would not have been very surprised at the physical relationship between Ennis and Jack. I think it very likely, however, that he remembered that Jack had presided over a considerable number of losses to the flock the year before and maybe wanted to check up that he and Ennis were doing the job they were paid for.
What was not expected in real life that a physical relationship should involve emotion, or that it should be on-going.
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Welshwitch, your saying that the sexuality might have been no big deal, sort of late adolescent, but that the emotional entanglement was
unusual parallels what Annie did with her SS. When I read it closely, critically, I saw that was her technique, to surprise the readers with a
sexual entanglement, then move to an affair, and then, having carefully dropped hints, and using flashback, punching the reader in the gut
at the very, very end: it was and had been, a great love. She hid that, if you look closely. And that had to be replicated in the film, that final
punch. The screenwriters developed it without flashback, threw in SNIT, and let the shirts and the grieving scenes do the job.
Anyway, have been thinking about how the collision on the mountain altered those two. In another thread, we went into the idea of a helix,
but, clearly, there had to be adaptations, and change. How did they change?
IMO, Ennis was not looking for anyone, but needed deeply a person, any person, who could bring him life. The way he described his upcoming
marriage to Alma, with so little enthusiasm, he probably already knew she saw him only in one dimension-a guy. He never seemed to factor
love into anything, as if it were not for him, in his life. So Jack's companionship, multi-dimensional, awakened the possibility of BEING someone
understood by another. He clearly learned.....to talk. He learned sexual passion (Annie has him as a virgin). He also learned to make love.
Jackster noted his mother must have loved him, for her to have sung lullabies, but many are the boys who do not see a mother or father as
having loved them. Just treated them as a kid. Both my parents sang lullabies to me, as a child, and it never meant anything to me until much
later. Ennis---needed to be brought into life, all over again, as a full person. And this change occurred, from Jack.
How did Jack change? Ouch. I believe Jack didn't need a person, he needed a male. Male ratification. I don't think he'd ever gotten that.
And it didn't have to be sexual, but that's the kind he got. And I think THAT altered his sexuality. In other words, am saying I don't think Jack
went up there bisexual, but became so, immediately, after Ennis became the first male to accept him and it was ratified by the sex.
Am being very careful, in these opinions, because I know they don't leave much wiggle-room for me, but they are the product of keeping a
relatively open mind for these two years, and thinking it over. Those are some of the ways, IMO, the collision changed them.
Oh, well. I may give up pondering these little details and join everybody else in the ooh, baby, baby pics threads. Baby Tammy, move over--
make some room---am headed your way. Oh, all right. Already been there. Just had to mess with my Spanish princess.
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Tony: Nothin' much much to add here but to say this is a remarkable post. Am mightily impressed with your analysis of several important aspects of this (BBM) coming into being. I need to reread several times and think through slowly.
You're a champ here in my book. O0
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. . . it seems that it was accepted that (if) two men were . . . . stuck up in some remote place alone together for months the inevitable might happen. This was accepted, even condoned . . . .
Yes, for sure WW your absolutely right, not only sheepherding, but numerous other occupations where women were scarce, sailors (of course), miners (49ers were notorious), etc. etc. I think Annie tries to distinguish our boys behavior from this accepted "animalistic need" behavior by "doing it" in broad daylight in the SS which is when JA spies them, this possibly takes it a step beyond just physical need. In the movie their spied behavior is visually shown with a considerable amount of affection which IMO was also not considered an "accepted" part of this isolated male-male behavior.
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IMO, Ennis was not looking for anyone, but needed deeply a person, any person, who could bring him life. The way he described his upcoming
marriage to Alma, with so little enthusiasm, he probably already knew she saw him only in one dimension-a guy. He never seemed to factor
love into anything, as if it were not for him, in his life. So Jack's companionship, multi-dimensional, awakened the possibility of BEING someone
understood by another. He clearly learned.....to talk. He learned sexual passion (Annie has him as a virgin). He also learned to make love.
Jackster noted his mother must have loved him, for her to have sung lullabies, but many are the boys who do not see a mother or father as
having loved them. Just treated them as a kid. Both my parents sang lullabies to me, as a child, and it never meant anything to me until much
later. Ennis---needed to be brought into life, all over again, as a full person. And this change occurred, from Jack.
I totally love your take on Ennis, but I still have questions:
I've always believed that what Ennis saw as a child, stunted him ( if this is the right word), emotionally and sexually. Never mind seeing a mutilated body at the age of nine, but also being told why that poor soul met such a fate, could this cause him to be conflicted or retard his own sexual development? His virginity is also telling, he had a girlfriend, but yet he never tried to "go all the way?", and if not with her, weren't there any whorehouses, (sorry to be so crude), after all he was in his late teens, or what could it have been his Methodist upbringing?
The FNIT shows Ennis the passion he was capable of. That"I'm not queer" shows his primary fear of what this could mean, but the SNIT surrendered emotionally and passionately, it all came together that night. Jack was the only one in his life gave to him all you stated, and but with a conflicted soul Ennis emerges.
How did Jack change? Ouch. I believe Jack didn't need a person, he needed a male. Male ratification. I don't think he'd ever gotten that.
And it didn't have to be sexual, but that's the kind he got. And I think THAT altered his sexuality. In other words, am saying I don't think Jack
went up there bisexual, but became so, immediately, after Ennis became the first male to accept him and it was ratified by the sex. Am being very careful, in these opinions, because I know they don't leave much wiggle-room for me, but they are the product of keeping a
relatively open mind for these two years, and thinking it over. Those are some of the ways, IMO, the collision changed them.
Now this I'm confused. Are you saying Jack was straight, and came down from the mountain bi, and imbued with a new knowledge of himself. What does this say about Jack? Ennis's influence on him made him totally change who he really was? Then what of his many trips to Mexico, his affair with Randall, (forget about the "Gay Bomb", a night with Ennis will do), did he loose his mind?
Jack sought respect. Something he never got from his father, Aguirre, LD, even Lureen. But Ennis respected him and was equal to him. I thought this was the basic thing that drew Jack to Ennis he validated him.
Tony please help me out on this one. You totally flip this on me, and it's making me nuts. (I love it).
Happy New Year
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Jackster, thanks for the kind words. Welshwitch triggered my memory of taking up the SS, once again, but only for studying technique.
And, just as WW said that the emotional develpment was what was unusual, so too, that was what Annie clobbered us with at the end.
It's very hard for us to go back to the first reading of the SS, or the first viewing of the film, but the raw power of both was to delay until the end
the full, final understanding it wasn't a sexual affair, but a love story for the ages. Annie did it casually, and used early hints and later flashbacks.
The film used---the last meeting together, the shirts, and the closing scene. It would be really neat to do a study of the film, and how Ang Lee
used slow-fast, slow-fast, color tones, gradual introduction of music, and serenity vs. violent scenes, to keep the viewer unstable and set up
for a similar knock-down. He, and the screenwriters matched Annie, but towards the same goal---a knock-down punch at the end.
Manhattangirl, as much as we've gone into the sexuality of our two heroes, there's always more to notice. You're right-there is something
difficult about Ennis never using a whorehouse and, by his own words, never having had any opportunity. Maybe he wasn't sexual until Jack.
In any way. Insecure, unwanted. MG, a male has to feel aggressive to, er, get it up, and feel alive and wanted. And the Ennis we saw outside
Aguirre's trailer was a castaway. Yet he had some seething passionate needs for FNIT to erupt. Maybe it was Jack that made him feel like
he was worth something. There's more there and need to think on it instead of just posting what comes to mind.
As for Jack---most want him to be gay or bisexual, and I don't see that and base that on my male friends as we grew up. He was very alive,
sensual, and ....willing, for just about anything (Lureen proved that, didn't she?). But the important word, MG, is--de-sensitization. There
are many troubles to that first time (and, yes, even male-female), but each succeeding event de-sensitizes a male to any shock or guilt
from male/male. In the sexual theory I follow (see my first thread, if you have the time; it's real short, on pg. 2 of this area), a guy can have
male/male sex often (say, in prison) and remain straight, but de-sensitized to any taboo. But, in Jack's case, I think he caught that football
and ran with it, become fully bi-sexual. He would be the Category 4 male, described in that thread. Sorry, MG, but there's more to guys
and we all---cover it up. What became extremely unusual, as welshwitch noted......was the emotional rather than the sexual development.
They.....passed doggy-dog sex, and went into....the love story that has us here on this forum. We wouldn't be here...if it was just sex.
Welshwitch has it right. And that's where Annie got us good.
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I somehow feel that Ennis intrigued Jack from the very beginning -- perhaps even considered Ennis as a sort of challenge. It would seem that Jack was definitely attracted to Ennis, and there are a number of indications in the first scene that lead us to believe that Ennis was also curious about Jack, or perhaps even vaguely attracted to him.
Did Jack or Ennis knew that it was fate? I don't know. Somehow, I feel that the first meeting was more a time of exploration and mutual probing of possibilities, rather than any star-struck recognition that "He is the one..."
I think Jack was by nature more sociable and gregarious with strangers, and a lot of the friendliness in the beginning could very well just be good-natured love of companionship on his part. Still, I don't doubt that there was some form of attraction from the start. The looks tell all...
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Manhattangirl, we are unable, as Americans, to get past the sex. I think we are driving the Europeans batty. We are not going to get
anywhere on this thread, or any other, unless we acknowledge the sexuality as important and worthy of exploring, but get past that to how
two guys fell in love. Because there are tons of gay guys cheerfully having sex and without love. And men and women at singles bars. We
have to weave in and out between the two, and see how this collision was more than sex, and more than sexual predisposition.
Dammit, my battiest posts are in the wee hours of the morning, when slightly ill, and then I gotta regret it later. Will take 2 aspirins and
call myself later in the morning. But we gotta get there---it wasn't sex---it was a collision of emotional needs, and we Americans are way
behind Europeans in registering that.
Tony,
First off, please feel better. Second, when I hear the statement:" As Americans we have get past this or that" the eyes in my head start to roll back. Yes, it was an emotional collision that it was so deeply profound that it released and altered both men. But is was the sliding scale of the sexual self, that smacked us upside our head.
You pointed out the recreational aspect of sex, but in this story the sex was not only the communication of the emotions one had towards the other, but was also a prison, because each felt imprisoned by their need for each other, Brokeback the two edged sword. This love lasted for twenty years, but because of a world they feared that would destroy both of them, and in spite of this they still love, they still needed each, and they couldn't stay away. I see both the emotional and the sexual as equal components, one fueled the other. These men ran on emotions and expressed it physically. If it was different there would be long letters of feelings hidden lovingly away for twenty years, like many great loves which are expressed in the written word and not be the physical, instead we have are only postcards confirming the next meeting, this shows the overwhelming need to actually be together.
In the final confrontation this was the tug-o-war between Jack and Ennis, the confirmation of the emotions, and the need for the physical.
Just my thought.
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Hi, Manhattangirl---you caught me there with that quote. Have had an up and down fever, and when I wrote that post, the fever was in play,
and I deleted it later because I felt it didn't meet the standards of the moderators.
Am trying to remember the key words of your post-they ran on emotions and expressed them physically, but I may have only the sense of that
right. If so, I do greatly agree. But Ennis carried his love within him and, IMO, it had to be that his emotions were greater than the physical/sexual
need to a significant degree, no matter how often he "wrung it out" as Annie said. Jack wasn't his only love. I do believe he loved his family,
but felt unloved, back, and I think he really did love Alma, but she could never see him as a human being, only as a male, a husband, and when
that broke down even there, he felt unneeded, again, and ready for the divorce. I think he had a passing love for Cassie, the way he smiled
gently when he spoke of her, and, there, again, he noted well, when he saw her with someone else. Nobody wanted him for just being-himself,
except Jack. Nobody perservered, except Jack. Maybe, with Ennis, so often unneeded, it would take decades for him to believe completely.
An imbalance, with Ennis, then. He didn't HAVE to have the physical co-equally with the emotional. Not so, Jack. Jack, as a sensual person,
needed regular sex and regular, uh, huggy-wugs, to convey the emotional. He was easy prey for Lureen (and she was a predator) and he responded
with the hopes--it might just work.
Know what? They DID fall in love on Brokeback, and would have carried that as a sacred memory all their lives. But if Alma and Lureen had
gone past seeing them as guys, husbands, into seeing them as people--those marriages might have worked. It took 4 years!!!!! 4 years, for
both of these men to figure out, their wives were not full companions, and the love from their wives was low-voltage, easily transferable to
someone else. That left the sacred love of Brokeback, to return to, for their EMOTIONAL needs (they coulda gotten male sex somewhere else).
Yeah, they got right back into sex. Yeah, you're right, the emotions were conveyed physically. But it was emotional hunger that got them back
in touch. No one else really loved them. If it was hunger for male sex, trust me, MG, they woulda found that somewhere in those 4 years, apart.
No one else really had reached into their very soul as the other had done on BBM. A screw, you can get anywhere. Even in Wyoming or Texas.
When the marriages proved lesser loves, it was emotion that returned them to each others arms.
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Tony-
Thank you, I've read and re-read your post, Loved it. I understand now what you're saying. I have to now re-read the story and view the film through your eyes.
Now I'm wiping tears from my eyes and not rolling them, how you do that?
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Manhattangirl, I think we, all of us, find more from this film together, than we ever did, separately. Maybe Ayashae is right, in her views
about synchronicity. We were all supposed to meet, for whatever purpose. Maybe to learn that there are others like ourselves. Lovers.
Anyway, have always thought I understood Ennis, through and through, and now I know I have not looked Jack over that closely. that is,
not enough to be so confident as I have been about Ennis. When I can do that, will have better posts here. We could all use some more
insights on Jack. Annie starts and ends with Ennis. Jack is co-equal and yet I feel I need to look deeper there and start by assuming nothing.
Will try to do that. You were strong on Jack. I need to catch up.
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Well, have done some thinking, on Jack, and for what it's worth....here goes.
We are used to seeing Jack as co-equal with Ennis and Brokies even divide up on which one interests them more. But, in some respects,
they are not co-equal. It can easily be argued that BBM is primarily about Ennis and Jack is his....counterfoil. Annie starts and ends with Ennis.
And, in the interview with her that Jackster came across and which is the start of this thread, she said Heath had Ennis down so well, he knew
Ennis better than she did. She also said Jake pretty much took her outlines and created the Jack we see in the film. Whether she's admitting
it or not, then, SHE knew Ennis through and through, but left Jack less developed. And the Oscar nominations reflected this definition of Jack
as a counterfoil by putting Heath up for best actor, and, if I have this right, Jake up for best supporting actor.
So we see them as co-equal, but it very much looks the case that the origins of BBM are----Ennis. Annie does almost admit-Jack was not
her focus. It was left, then, to the screenplay writers to develop him more. And then, according to Annie, to Jake to really create him.
This is interesting, because critics of Jake say that he plays himself in every movie, no particular difference. And now we know this is not true-
Jake brings himself to each movie-I think a much lighter criticism there might fly, but he then goes much further, depending on the role. My
point in this is that Jake was underestimated in this film---it could be said, no, it WAS said, by Annie, Jake created at least half of the Jack Twist
we see. Heath was brilliant, of course, and creative, but he went INTO the role. Jake CREATED much of what we know as Jack.
And that is important. Jake fleshed out the sensuality, the alternating quiet sadness and friskiness---the one who COULD break down Ennis.
So this leads where? Jake developed further the sensuality that leaves us knowing Jack needed sexual reassurance that his emotional commitment
was returned. Doesn't sound like much, but Heath's tilting Ennis colder, and Jake tilting Jake warmer, makes the tragic ending more inevitable.
By the way, am not one that believes Jack's marriage to Lureen broke down completely. Much later, Jack says it could be done over the
telephone, suggesting not much sex. But given her earlier ways, am betting she went through at least 10 years of keeping the sexuality going
and that may have helped to keep Jack from going batty over the lack of regular intercourse with Ennis. But as she grew older and less interested,
Jack's need for more sexual reassurance from Ennis would have grown. Might help us understand why Jack tolerated the early years and then
became more frustrated. He loved only Ennis but, deprived of sex with his wife, more and more, he would then need more reassurance from
Ennis, and it wasn't happening.
Anyway-will stand my ground on that one point. Jake Gyllenhaal created...Jack Twist. Annie says he took the character and made it his own
version and that it was remarkably good. But she was therefore admitting, she knew Ennis to a T,...she wasn't sure of Jack. We might could
use this in developing the understanding of Jack better.
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Anyway-will stand my ground on that one point. Jake Gyllenhaal created...Jack Twist. Annie says he took the character and made it his own
version and that it was remarkably good. But she was therefore admitting, she knew Ennis to a T,...she wasn't sure of Jack. We might could
use this in developing the understanding of Jack better.
I feel the same way. I think she never really considered Jack in the same depth she gave Ennis, except for that remarkable passage of the Dozy Embrace. Part of Gyllenhaal's achievement is to make Ennis and Jack viable star-crossed lovers, by putting flesh to Jack in a way that resonated so beautifully with Proulx's passage about the Dozy Embrace.
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What strikes me about AP description of Jack, was how almost homely she makes him. sorta fair, slightly bucked tooth, and kind of makes fun of him, because of it. Jack was talkative, and lively, he spoke of sheep being struck by lightening, the feather in his hat, and how he got it, showed with pride his rodeo buckle, this to Ennis must have been non threatening. You could have imagine him being Ennis's "best buds ", Ennis being the serious of the duo, and Jack almost the comic relief. And you wonder how these two ordinary looking guys fall in love, and hold on to a relationship that lasted twenty years. I guess that's the beauty of AP story, it was an extraordinary love.
What Tony said make perfect sense, It up to us to develop that understanding of Jack, and we are not going to agree. But we can agree to disagree. Tony, like your take on Jack's marriage, I think the blonder Lureen hair got and the more jewelry she wore was almost a sign for me, a fight for her own sexuality, confirming her feminine self, her womanhood, because how many nights was she alone, and wondering why? Because there must have been something lacking in that marriage, the intimate connection, maybe the lack of intimacy itself, but there was something going on there. Jack's only connection was to Ennis. Sexually he did have Mexico and his affair with Randall, really what was left for her. This disconnect could have been detected by her but not understood, so she had her adding machine, she was not a contented woman.
Just my take.
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What strikes me about AP description of Jack, was how almost homely she makes him. sorta fair, slightly bucked tooth, and kind of makes fun of him, because of it. Jack was talkative, and lively, he spoke of sheep being struck by lightening, the feather in his hat, and how he got it, showed with pride his rodeo buckle, this to Ennis must have been non threatening. You could have imagine him being Ennis's "best buds ", Ennis being the serious of the duo, and Jack almost the comic relief. And you wonder how these two ordinary looking guys fall in love, and hold on to a relationship that lasted twenty years. I guess that's the beauty of AP story, it was an extraordinary love.
***
Precisely, they were foils to each other in the short story, and there is an element of the comic in Proulx's Jack.
I think Gyllenhaal's Jack can also be taken for a foil to Ledger's Ennis, although Gyllenhaal's Jack is in my opinion a more tragic realization -- pathos mixing with a very "Terentian" comic element. That is, the comic element in Gyllenhaal's Jack mirror's the style of the Roman dramatist Terence: there is a lightness to it, free from vulgarity or exaggeration. For me, it worked so well with the type of brooding tension in Ledger's Ennis, in a way that probably even surprised Proulx.
Which leads me back to the original topic: the "collision" works so well IMO because the cinematic realizations to Proulx's characters are without a strong element of "caricature" that we see now and then in Proulx's rendition -- especially in the case of Jack. I really think Ledger's and Gyllenhaal's chemistry helped a great deal in pulling off the realtionship as true romantic love -- even to those people who would never consider such a thing in a same-sex situation. The fact that we can empathize and sympathize with that love is at the heart of my "Terentian" claim: we connect with their "collision" as part of our shared humanity.
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Tpe, that's sure true--although Jack provided some comic relief, and was a counter-foil, there was no exaggeration or vulgarity, despite
some trace of that in the SS, never expanded there, and abandoned, in the film.
But, trying to sum up, on the general topic (as I think this thread has a massive readership of maybe 3 or 4 and may fade soon), of Jack,
will try for the following:
The key concepts I keep coming back to are ratification and de-sensitization and would like to apply them here.
It seems to me, Ennis needed ratification as a human being, as a person, as himself, whereas Jack had an enormous need for ratification from
another male (and sex doesn't have to be the method). It's a primitive, tribal need, for male ratification that we find in Jack. Ask Ennis if
he gives a damn whether guys in general don't like him and he'd say-so what? But Jack is almost like that Saturday Night Live skit Jake did,
"I'm gonna make you love me...!!!" Defiance. He won't give up.
As to whether he had same-sex inclinations before Ennis, I think that's hogwash. More likely, he was more sensual than the average male,
and less judgmental, and very much prone to going over the line. But bi-sexual? Nah.
I think all that changed, with the friendship love that began developing, from the very start, and the time came when, yeah, it would have
been there--what about sex? Up there alone. Getting along better than with anyone else in their lives. My gut instinct remains the same
as always---Jack was interested, by then, but he used sex to FORCE Ennis to acknowledge they weren't like any two others they had met.
With sex came de-sensitization, which is a big word that just means, once you done rode that bicycle the first time, it all gets easier each
succeeding time. Ennis, I believe, could only relate this to Jack, and no other male (sorry, fan-fics), but Jack? His sensual nature let loose.
It really was "a one-shot thing" for Ennis, in that he came down from the mountain de-sensitized only to Jack. Jack came down from the
mountain---bi-sexual.
The collision caused reorganized sexuality, strengthening of some personality traits (Ennis finding an ability to be sometimes happy, Jack
finding confidence in himself) but massive debris, chaos, as, when the season was ended early, not enough had been re-assembled for them
to talk, reasonably, about a future.
Not much more to say-just wrapping up an outline. This topic turned out more difficult than had expected.
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When I read this, Tony, it makes me think that they went up on the mountain one entity(straight), their cells were rearrange put in chaos, and because of the early ending of summer, they left the mountain disjointed, out of alignment, and not totally put back together,(the mountain acting as a transporter room on a starship gone haywire). Am I again (not surprising) misunderstanding?
On your premise, yes, it's "logical", Ennis's desensitization, and Jack's new found bisexuality to make a "point", was how they returned. What I think is that they were who they were before they met, they inturn like locksmith found and turned the key that was them. So the emotional connection was made, and as natural as breathing the sexual happened, through that was enlightenment.
Jack was key that unlocked Ennis's sexual and emotional self, Ennis was a key to Jack's validation as a man, and proof that he was lovable, and loved for himself. You see that's OK, because when we meet some one and have feelings for them, we find out that person unlocks something in us we never knew before, or we are amazed at the way that person knows who we really are knowing the best and the worst, still loves us, or am being too much of a romantic?
Just a thought.
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Hi, Manhattangirl- you're saying they were who they were before they met, but found the key to unlock and validate each other, if I've got
that right. The validation being the change.
I do respect that take on things, but have to disagree, somewhat. Again, on sexuality, most males are vulnerable to experimentation between
the years of, say, 14-24, and after that, it pretty much shuts down. And straight guys will shut it down, because, for them, it doesn't work.
Heterosexuality will always trump any adolescent goofing off & there's no reason to continue. This was not true for Jack and Ennis, who were
in their late teens. It did work. For Ennis, it was a fulfillment of a desperately needed friendship love that kept getting more and more into the
"endless love" zone. He became- Jacksexual. For Jack, it left him with memories of how sex was a reassurance, one he always needed.
You seem to think it worked because it was already there. I see it working, because the collision of emotions and needs rearranged them, into
a different mode, coming down from the mountain.
Again, if it was already there, we would have seen a more liberated Ennis, looking about him for other Jacks. Didn't happen. It was always only
Jack. And we would have seen a sensual Jack, now knowing he wanted men, generically, often, and instead we fing him eager to take on Lureen,
a little slow with Randall, and only some occasional jaunts to Mexico. He wanted-ENNIS.
And after the collision, there was more. Despite the hurt of the separation, IMO, the sense they could be loved, that they found on the
mountain, brought hopes their marriages could work. They had more self-confidence SOMETHING could work. After 4 years, that was fading
away. The only real love was what they had found before.
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Hi, Manhattangirl- you're saying they were who they were before they met, but found the key to unlock and validate each other, if I've got
that right. The validation being the change.
I do respect that take on things, but have to disagree, somewhat. Again, on sexuality, most males are vulnerable to experimentation between
the years of, say, 14-24, and after that, it pretty much shuts down. And straight guys will shut it down, because, for them, it doesn't work.
Heterosexuality will always trump any adolescent goofing off & there's no reason to continue. This was not true for Jack and Ennis, who were
in their late teens. It did work. For Ennis, it was a fulfillment of a desperately needed friendship love that kept getting more and more into the
"endless love" zone. He became- Jacksexual. For Jack, it left him with memories of how sex was a reassurance, one he always needed.
You seem to think it worked because it was already there. I see it working, because the collision of emotions and needs rearranged them, into
a different mode, coming down from the mountain.
Again, if it was already there, we would have seen a more liberated Ennis, looking about him for other Jacks. Didn't happen. It was always only
Jack. And we would have seen a sensual Jack, now knowing he wanted men, generically, often, and instead we fing him eager to take on Lureen,
a little slow with Randall, and only some occasional jaunts to Mexico. He wanted-ENNIS.
And after the collision, there was more. Despite the hurt of the separation, IMO, the sense they could be loved, that they found on the
mountain, brought hopes their marriages could work. They had more self-confidence SOMETHING could work. After 4 years, that was fading
away. The only real love was what they had found before.
I won't even pretend to be an expert on male sexuality, I'm just gleaning the information that is presented to me in this story, to come up with my own humble opinions.
As far as Ennis was concern, a "liberated" Ennis, not only didn't have other Jacks, and there wasn't even "Jill". He had Alma, but his virginity for me is still telling, come on he didn't try to go all the way?, then if not her, someone girl of "easy virtue"? I still will go back to what he witness at nine, this information must be significant because AP wanted us to know, or it wouldn't have put out there for our consideration, this was part Ennis psychological make up, this one incident shut him down emotionally and sexually and it was Jack and not Alma who had the key to opened Ennis true self, but also tortured him too, because in the ss, he even admits, if his father stuck his head in that motel room, his father would kill him on the spot. How in heck one can deal with the idea, that to be your true self, can bring death, that death could come from your own parent? This was Ennis conflicted self.
Tony you make it a point to show Jack was eager to hook up with Lureen, I doubt that, look after the rodeo clown incident, Jack was cautious, lonely, and needy when Lureen approached him, how could he resist he was actually connecting with someone, any one. Jack was on the down side, struggling, alone. Who could blame him. Randall, he was the threat, the something that could set this whole thing off balance. Jack knew this, he felt uneasy, and it disturbed him. Randall reached out to him, another man wanted him, no fear of tire irons. And in loneliness for Ennis, Jack succumbed to it.
Tony, I see your point, and what the heck do I know, I just have this gut feeling that I can't shake. Because, some of us know even when we are children and can't explain it, we feel that attraction for someone of our own sex. I don't know if I'm making any sense, but for me, I was very young girl, battling that war inside. I like to think of myself as a Jack girl, but damn Ennis haunts the hell out of me.
I'll leave it at that.
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Tpe, that's sure true--although Jack provided some comic relief, and was a counter-foil, there was no exaggeration or vulgarity, despite
some trace of that in the SS, never expanded there, and abandoned, in the film.
But, trying to sum up, on the general topic (as I think this thread has a massive readership of maybe 3 or 4 and may fade soon), of Jack,
will try for the following:
The key concepts I keep coming back to are ratification and de-sensitization and would like to apply them here.
It seems to me, Ennis needed ratification as a human being, as a person, as himself, whereas Jack had an enormous need for ratification from
another male (and sex doesn't have to be the method). It's a primitive, tribal need, for male ratification that we find in Jack. Ask Ennis if
he gives a damn whether guys in general don't like him and he'd say-so what? But Jack is almost like that Saturday Night Live skit Jake did,
"I'm gonna make you love me...!!!" Defiance. He won't give up.
As to whether he had same-sex inclinations before Ennis, I think that's hogwash. More likely, he was more sensual than the average male,
and less judgmental, and very much prone to going over the line. But bi-sexual? Nah.
I think all that changed, with the friendship love that began developing, from the very start, and the time came when, yeah, it would have
been there--what about sex? Up there alone. Getting along better than with anyone else in their lives. My gut instinct remains the same
as always---Jack was interested, by then, but he used sex to FORCE Ennis to acknowledge they weren't like any two others they had met.
With sex came de-sensitization, which is a big word that just means, once you done rode that bicycle the first time, it all gets easier each
succeeding time. Ennis, I believe, could only relate this to Jack, and no other male (sorry, fan-fics), but Jack? His sensual nature let loose.
It really was "a one-shot thing" for Ennis, in that he came down from the mountain de-sensitized only to Jack. Jack came down from the
mountain---bi-sexual.
The collision caused reorganized sexuality, strengthening of some personality traits (Ennis finding an ability to be sometimes happy, Jack
finding confidence in himself) but massive debris, chaos, as, when the season was ended early, not enough had been re-assembled for them
to talk, reasonably, about a future.
Not much more to say-just wrapping up an outline. This topic turned out more difficult than had expected.
Interesting post here, Tony. Although I don't agree with everything you say here, I do think I see your point about desensitization. It would be probably approximated by the term "breaking in". Somehow, I sense a negative connotation with the use of the term, "desensitizing", although it need not be that way. But yes, I think the act of desensitizing made things easier after the act, even if it did sow the seeds of future misunderstanding.
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Hi, tpe---yes, you're right, and very sensitive to the nuances in words---de-sensitization often does have a negative connotation, as it is
usually heard with reference to our being de-sensitized to violence in the media, and therefore they have to keep getting worse to create any
reaction. Here, none was meant.
Would really rather avoid these $20 words, and stick to normal English, however the word is very relevant to the collision on the mountain.
It's been pretty much accepted, in other threads, that guys experiment. Was pointing out that, once you have had a sexual act with the same
gender (actually, even with the opposite gender), it gets progressively easier.
Have tried to say that Ennis became used to sex with Jack (Jacksexual), and no further, and Jack got used to sex with males in general,
as a possibility.
Am not doing well on this thread, as my thinking is fuzzy on some issues, but still think the concept of a collision is relevant, and that, in
any collision, there's merging and there's debris. And I still wonder if both guys didn't have an internal time-clock for settling up with each
other, but this was shut down by Aguirre's early end to the summer. I just don't believe they weren't aware of some kind of deadline, for
sorting things out, about emotional commitment, and hadn't thought ahead somewhat. Had they been left alone, on schedule, each would
have had to come to terms with each other, the last few days and nights. They never got that chance, and so, debris, everywhere.
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Well, if you would allow me to say this, I do believe that Jack probably let things happen even before he had met Ennis -- no way to prove this, but that's the feeling I get. If we accept this, then for Jack, it was really not an act of desensitizing.
We can certainly think of the case of Ennis as a case of desensitizing himself to Jack. I don't interpret this to mean that he was not attracted to males per se. I tend to believe that Ennis was intrinsically homosexual, and that it was Jack who was only able to make him come out and be what he truly was deep inside. Again, there is no way of proving this, except to say that I interpret Proulx's comment about homophobia as applying directly to the clash between Ennis's socially-conditioned attitude towards homosexuality and his intrinsic nature.
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Tony,
Its a bit too clinical, eliminating attraction, kinship, and love. You make them sound like their sexuality was a tool a means to an end and not an expression of the love they had for each other. These men weren't verbal, but showed it everytime they were together. The reunion kiss was all that had to said.
Just my opinion.
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Hi, tpe. This go-round you were very specific in saying your gut instinct was that Jack was experienced, and that Ennis was repressed gay.
This is the majority opinion, well-respected by me, but, as you know, there is a persistent minority opinion, which also has substantial support,
and is grounded, also, in very sound reasoning. I had meant to keep that split into 2 camps off this thread, and left for the other threads (where,
I notice, there is always enduring interest, because it is not really settled, nor likely ever will be). But, I failed. And that's sloppy posting on
my part, since I had told myself not to go there, in this thread. For anything productive to come out of this thread, then, I need to stick to
ideas that are not assuming either camp is accurate, because I think that can be done. Am sorry--I goofed up.
Manhattangirl, the same apology to you, in general terms. But specifically, your saying my post seemed too clinical and eliminated attraction,
kinship, and love---I plead Not Guilty. I have tried to de-construct and consider them separately, then put them back together again, and
that in no way eliminates any of the component parts. If you are looking over a photo of someone, and speak to their eyes, or their hair, and
so on, it is understood you are looking over someone step by step, not leaving a nose floating around and the rest of the face gone.
Looking at the smiling lips of the Mona Lisa, in no way says you're not also aware of, and will get to, the entirety of her beauty. Nor is it clinical
to point out a specific part of the whole.
Gosh, schmoozy as I have been, how could anyone think I would not get back to the love? I am doing something wrong, to give such a wrong
impression. I will do better. Meanwhile, I needed what you both brought out for me to get back on track. And I appreciate what was pointed out.
You both have high standards, and I will try, as I said, to do better.
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Tony-
No apologies needed. The only impression I get is that you're smart, funny, honest and true to your belief and I like talking with you (so don't change a thing).
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Hi, tpe. This go-round you were very specific in saying your gut instinct was that Jack was experienced, and that Ennis was repressed gay.
This is the majority opinion, well-respected by me, but, as you know, there is a persistent minority opinion, which also has substantial support,
and is grounded, also, in very sound reasoning. I had meant to keep that split into 2 camps off this thread, and left for the other threads (where,
I notice, there is always enduring interest, because it is not really settled, nor likely ever will be). But, I failed. And that's sloppy posting on
my part, since I had told myself not to go there, in this thread. For anything productive to come out of this thread, then, I need to stick to
ideas that are not assuming either camp is accurate, because I think that can be done. Am sorry--I goofed up.
It is not at all bad to show the fault lines in the current discussion. It gives us at least 2 different points of view to draw upon. I am not sure that my take is the majority opinion -- I don't think there was ever a serious study on this -- but it would surprise me greatly if your take on things is truly a minority point of view.
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Had started this thread because of a very revealing interview with Annie Proulx, posted by Jackster, and it seems I got some of the quotes a
little off, in another thread, and have corrected them there (was Ennis gay?). But the introduction here was right and would like to add a little
more from that interview. Annie very definitely said, at the end, that she wanted us to approach their sexuality based on our own experiences,
so she was inviting us into the story. And, earlier, she had said the raging love "came roaring out of nowhere..". I have to hope she meant this
in terms of being unexpected, rather than that the love had no earlier roots in their needs. At any rate, this go-round, would like to explore what
little we know of them before the collision. No fan-fic stuff---but, rather, trying to review and fill in some blanks.
Ennis.
We do know his father was harsh (the Earl and Rich trauma), that he was bullied by his brother, and then his father told him how to fix that
problem. We know his mother loved him (she had sung lullabies to him). And then, fairly young, lost his parents to a car crash and was raised
for probably 6-8 years before moving on. Can we find anything in these bare facts?
For one thing, there doesn't seem to be any hatred for his father, nor much love either. His father was an authority figure and we do see Ennis
always respecting authority. Annie says Heath got Ennis right-100%, and even more, so the film portrayals show him shy & hang-dog with Aguirre,
respectful before the minister at the wedding, and quiet, hanging his head before the judge at the divorce. He also had an instinctive way
of not challenging Jack's gruff father, and handling him well. We would know a little more, then, about his not wanting to challenge "the rules".
That may not be central, but it is relevant.
One area I haven't seen explored is the impact of losing his parents. That had to be a terrible shock. So he had seen the death of Earl,
gloated over by his father, and then, fairly soon after, the death of both parents. Clearly, he had developed, very early, the trait of repressing
emotions. He, at least, had to grieve his mother, but does not speak of that.
There also seems to be a sense in him that he wasn't much to anybody, so we do see him anticipating rejection, reacting calmly (if you don't
want no more of my kids, then I'd be glad to leave you alone), and giving up. He doesn't BELIEVE he's really wanted and stubbornly walks
away when there's evidence of that.
Jack
We know he must have had a lonely childhood, there being no brothers or sisters, and out in the middle of nowhere. Where did he get that
lively, sensual, good-natured personality? Maybe, having been pissed on by his father, and noticing the circumcision difference, he made a
deduction that was healing: he wasn't like his father, and could therefore be the opposite in personality. Rebelling against the role-model
of the father, and not respecting authority as absolute. But there is some possibility, he was much more isolated, in Lightning Flat, than
Ennis had been, and had to create....himself, and probably with the quiet approval and love of his mother, who knew well the cold nature of
her husband.
Both had some high school, and that would have been where, as is often the case, they firmed up their personalities and yet developed
more social skills, however limited.
That's all we've got, in the deep past. Approaching the collision, then, despite their youth, they were pretty much set in their ways.
And yet those ways were not hostile to the personality of the other. Loneliness, hard times, poor-paying jobs, and, each in their own way,
a willingness to get along with others, were shared traits. And that's what we have before the collision. Not much, but wanted to flesh out
anything I possibly could. If anybody sees anything different in these basics, would be glad to hear their take on the...before.
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The thing that keeps hitting me in the face whenever I think about the before is the loneliness both boys experienced in their early lives. Ennis, after the death of his parents, had his brother and sister-in-law, but there's no mention of friends. Ennis was not a talker, as he said himself. He wasn't used to talking to anyone and expressing his feelings, etc. I think his upbringing was pretty lonely, so, when Jack came along, in the face of Jack's affability, he found a friend.
Jack, too, never talks about friends. His nomadic rodeo life doesn't lend itself to long-standing, deep friendships. He was raised on a lonely farm. His father obviously was not much of a companion; maybe his mother was more of one. But, he, too, although he was a friendly type of fellow, was lonely. When Ennis and he found themselves together alone on BBM, he found a friend ( and more). I think the commonality of their loneliness played a big part in their gravitating towards one another -- made them ripe for friendship.
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I have a sort of feeling that up till their meeting neither had had any sort of friendships and that even their family relationships ( with the exception of those with their mothers, but ennis lost his mother in his early teens) hadn;t been close. I think of Ennis's father and Jack's as hard and possibly domineering, a lot like LD. then Jack while rodeoing would have been in competition with the other riders and Ennis working with his brother and younger than him would presumably have been competing ( not necessarily consciously) with his older brother's greater strength and abilities, not to mention those of other ranch workers.
Once they were on the mountain they didn't have to be competitive - in fact it was pretty much essential that they co-operate - and so they didn't need to be guarded, which meant that whatever their real instincts were they could allow them to be realised. Jack was able to go on doing this after they left; Ennis was afraid to, and I think never saw the time he spent with Jack as anything but a sort of parallel universe, not one he could live in permanently.
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I have a sort of feeling that up till their meeting neither had had any sort of friendships and that even their family relationships ( with the exception of those with their mothers, but ennis lost his mother in his early teens) hadn;t been close. I think of Ennis's father and Jack's as hard and possibly domineering, a lot like LD. then Jack while rodeoing would have been in competition with the other riders and Ennis working with his brother and younger than him would presumably have been competing ( not necessarily consciously) with his older brother's greater strength and abilities, not to mention those of other ranch workers.
Once they were on the mountain they didn't have to be competitive - in fact it was pretty much essential that they co-operate - and so they didn't need to be guarded, which meant that whatever their real instincts were they could allow them to be realised. Jack was able to go on doing this after they left; Ennis was afraid to, and I think never saw the time he spent with Jack as anything but a sort of parallel universe, not one he could live in permanently.
I like the way you say it here, WW. Part of the magic of those heady days in BBM was that they didn't have to to put a check on their instincts, and only had to do what seemed natural to them. I think the cooperation was a product of this seeming naturalness of it all. They didn't feel that they had to be somebody else, or try to be something else for the other to reach out. Perhpas, as you say, it was not bound to last outside of the isolated setting of BBM, but what the experience revealed about themselves and each other should have been enough to sustain a love for a lifetime, no?