Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: dirtbiker on Feb 07, 2006, 12:13 AM
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I don't think this has been asked, but what do you all think Alma's motive was, to invite Jack in for coffee? Did she want to find out something more about this man to see why Ennis is so ga ga over him, or is she resigned to the fact that this man would be part of her life/family now, if she wanted to keep the marriage going for the sake of the kids?
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Michell said in the logo movie that seeing the kiss was the beginning of the more questions, not the end of anything. I think Alma was trying to figure things out, plus it does hurt to feel shut out of things, Ennis was putting up a wall there and she wanted to see inside.
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I don't think this has been asked, but what do you all think Alma's motive was, to invite Jack in for coffee? Did she want to find out something more about this man to see why Ennis is so ga ga over him, or is she resigned to the fact that this man would be part of her life/family now, if she wanted to keep the marriage going for the sake of the kids?
ooooh goood. question. I think she wanted to see who this guy was that was a-kissin' her man. Under the pretense of a friendly cup of coffee. she was curious.
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I think it was a challenge: You ashamed of him or me? You trying to hide something? If this is above board - bring him in!
I love it that Ennis says "Jack's from Texas" as if that is an explanation to ANYTHING! And that he doesn't even understand (or care) that it's not a logical thing to say.
And the line (and Michelle's delivery) "people from Texas don't drink coffee?" is so great.
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Or maybe just being polite...It is costum to invite people in and ask if they want a drink, coffee or tea! ???
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I think Alma was most curious about Jack and wanted to spend time in his immediate company (as do most of us on this board I imagine..)
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I think Alma doesn't want that Ennis stay alone with Jack after the kiss she saw.
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Just makes me wonder if Ennis knew that she knew at that point because of her facial expressions, when Jack was introduced to her.
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Just makes me wonder if Ennis knew that she knew at that point because of her facial expressions, when Jack was introduced to her.
Ennis pobably just wasn't thinking. He was almost ridiculously careless with Alma regarding the time he spent with Jack.
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I think her initial offer was made simply out of politeness/courtesy. However, after Ennis' reaction, she realizes he's trying to hide something and is just trying to argue.
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I think for her it was a combination of curiosity, fear, need to know the 'competition', and reflex politeness.
I don't think Ennis was thinking of her or her facial expressions much at all. Jack was vibrating with excitement and that's where his mind was.
If you haven't had the good luck to experience that feeling yet, I hope you do. It's exactly as she describes.
-btb
What could he say? "Alma, this is Jack Twist, Jack, my wife Alma." His chest was heaving. He could smell Jack -- the intensely familiar odor of cigarettes, musky sweat and a faint sweetness like grass, and with it the rushing cold of the mountain. "Alma," he said, "Jack and me ain't seen each other in four years." As if it were a reason. He was glad the light was dim on the landing but did not turn away from her.
"Sure enough," said Alma in a low voice. She had seen what she had seen. Behind her in the room lightning lit the window like a white sheet waving and the baby cried.
"You got a kid?" said Jack. His shaking hand grazed Ennis's hand, electrical current snapped between them.
"Two little girls," Ennis said. "Alma Jr. and Francine. Love them to pieces." Alma's mouth twitched.
"I got a boy," said Jack. "Eight months old. Tell you what, I married a cute little old Texas girl down in Childress -- Lureen." From the vibration of the floorboard on which they both stood Ennis could feel how hard Jack was shaking.
"Alma," he said. "Jack and me is goin out and get a drink. Might not get back tonight, we get drinkin and talkin."
"Sure enough," Alma said, taking a dollar bill from her pocket. Ennis guessed she was going to ask him to get her a pack of cigarettes, bring him back sooner.
"Please to meet you," said Jack, trembling like a run-out horse.
"Ennis -- " said Alma in her misery voice, but that didn't slow him down on the stairs and he called back, "Alma, you want smokes there's some in the pocket a my blue shirt in the bedroom."
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The day was hot and clear in the morning, but by noon the clouds had pushed up out of the west rolling a little sultry air before them. Ennis, wearing his best shirt, white with wide black stripes, didn't know what time Jack would get there and so had taken the day off, paced back and forth, looking down into a street pale with dust. Alma was saying something about taking his friend to the Knife & Fork for supper instead of cooking it was so hot, if they could get a baby-sitter, but Ennis said more likely he'd just go out with Jack and get drunk. Jack was not a restaurant type, he said, thinking of the dirty spoons sticking out of the cans of cold beans balanced on the log.
The above takes place before Jack arrives in Riverton.
Alma, in the original story, doesn't invite Jack in for anything. She has no idea as to what kind of relationship Ennis has had with Jack in the first place.
In fact, from the way that I read the story, Alma did notice that very tall Ennis was hugging a person on the upstairs landing outside their apartment door; but, she did not see him kissing Jack at all.
And, I believe the reason after their divorce where she referred to Jack Twist as "Jack Nasty" is that she was guessing that Ennis and Jack had not gone camping at all but were chasing after other women or doing something else which was not right.
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She asked them in for coffee, because she wanted to know the depth of the relationship between Ennis and Jack. You can learn an awful lot about poeple over a cup of coffee. Perhaps, she was resigned to losing Ennis and if that was the case, she was going to have to understand who 'Jack' was, because shes going to have two girls to raise with a father and surrogate father.
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The day was hot and clear in the morning, but by noon the clouds had pushed up out of the west rolling a little sultry air before them. Ennis, wearing his best shirt, white with wide black stripes, didn't know what time Jack would get there and so had taken the day off, paced back and forth, looking down into a street pale with dust. Alma was saying something about taking his friend to the Knife & Fork for supper instead of cooking it was so hot, if they could get a baby-sitter, but Ennis said more likely he'd just go out with Jack and get drunk. Jack was not a restaurant type, he said, thinking of the dirty spoons sticking out of the cans of cold beans balanced on the log.
The above takes place before Jack arrives in Riverton.
Alma, in the original story, doesn't invite Jack in for anything. She has no idea as to what kind of relationship Ennis has had with Jack in the first place.
In fact, from the way that I read the story, Alma did notice that very tall Ennis was hugging a person on the upstairs landing outside their apartment door; but, she did not see him kissing Jack at all.
And, I believe the reason after their divorce where she referred to Jack Twist as "Jack Nasty" is that she was guessing that Ennis and Jack had not gone camping at all but were chasing after other women or doing something else which was not right.
from the story:
They seized each other by the shoulders, hugged mightily, squeezing the breath out of each other, saying, son of a bitch, son of a bitch, then, and easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers, their mouths came together, and hard, Jack's big teeth bringing blood, his hat falling to the floor, stubble rasping, wet saliva welling, [i]and the door opening and Alma looking out for a few seconds at Ennis's straining shoulders and shutting the door again and still they clinched[/i], pressing chest and groin and thigh and leg together, treading on each other's toes until they pulled apart to breathe and Ennis, not big on endearments, said what he said to his horses and daughters, little darlin.
I think that line indicates she saw them.
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The day was hot and clear in the morning, but by noon the clouds had pushed up out of the west rolling a little sultry air before them. Ennis, wearing his best shirt, white with wide black stripes, didn't know what time Jack would get there and so had taken the day off, paced back and forth, looking down into a street pale with dust. Alma was saying something about taking his friend to the Knife & Fork for supper instead of cooking it was so hot, if they could get a baby-sitter, but Ennis said more likely he'd just go out with Jack and get drunk. Jack was not a restaurant type, he said, thinking of the dirty spoons sticking out of the cans of cold beans balanced on the log.
The above takes place before Jack arrives in Riverton.
Alma, in the original story, doesn't invite Jack in for anything. She has no idea as to what kind of relationship Ennis has had with Jack in the first place.
In fact, from the way that I read the story, Alma did notice that very tall Ennis was hugging a person on the upstairs landing outside their apartment door; but, she did not see him kissing Jack at all.
And, I believe the reason after their divorce where she referred to Jack Twist as "Jack Nasty" is that she was guessing that Ennis and Jack had not gone camping at all but were chasing after other women or doing something else which was not right.
from the story:
They seized each other by the shoulders, hugged mightily, squeezing the breath out of each other, saying, son of a bitch, son of a bitch, then, and easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers, their mouths came together, and hard, Jack's big teeth bringing blood, his hat falling to the floor, stubble rasping, wet saliva welling, [i]and the door opening and Alma looking out for a few seconds at Ennis's straining shoulders and shutting the door again and still they clinched[/i], pressing chest and groin and thigh and leg together, treading on each other's toes until they pulled apart to breathe and Ennis, not big on endearments, said what he said to his horses and daughters, little darlin.
I think that line indicates she saw them.
Yes, in the story, she saw them.
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The day was hot and clear in the morning, but by noon the clouds had pushed up out of the west rolling a little sultry air before them. Ennis, wearing his best shirt, white with wide black stripes, didn't know what time Jack would get there and so had taken the day off, paced back and forth, looking down into a street pale with dust. Alma was saying something about taking his friend to the Knife & Fork for supper instead of cooking it was so hot, if they could get a baby-sitter, but Ennis said more likely he'd just go out with Jack and get drunk. Jack was not a restaurant type, he said, thinking of the dirty spoons sticking out of the cans of cold beans balanced on the log.
The above takes place before Jack arrives in Riverton.
Alma, in the original story, doesn't invite Jack in for anything. She has no idea as to what kind of relationship Ennis has had with Jack in the first place.
In fact, from the way that I read the story, Alma did notice that very tall Ennis was hugging a person on the upstairs landing outside their apartment door; but, she did not see him kissing Jack at all.
And, I believe the reason after their divorce where she referred to Jack Twist as "Jack Nasty" is that she was guessing that Ennis and Jack had not gone camping at all but were chasing after other women or doing something else which was not right.
from the story:
They seized each other by the shoulders, hugged mightily, squeezing the breath out of each other, saying, son of a bitch, son of a bitch, then, and easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers, their mouths came together, and hard, Jack's big teeth bringing blood, his hat falling to the floor, stubble rasping, wet saliva welling, [i]and the door opening and Alma looking out for a few seconds at Ennis's straining shoulders and shutting the door again and still they clinched[/i], pressing chest and groin and thigh and leg together, treading on each other's toes until they pulled apart to breathe and Ennis, not big on endearments, said what he said to his horses and daughters, little darlin.
I think that line indicates she saw them.
Yes, in the story, she saw them.
She definitely saw them, and the story implies that Ennis knew she saw them--"'Jack and me ain't seen each other in four years." As if it were a reason." And her referring to Jack as "Jack Nasty" means she knew exactly what was going on.
camom
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I'm relating that to her earlier "asking Ennis to buy a pack of cigarette as a mean to bring him back". After she saw what she saw, her mental state basically stayed in "Ennis, you stay here, don't go out with that ...that...person". So, the next morning, her husband was back, she had to come up with any execuse (just like the one with buying cigarette) to keep Ennis home, where she could see and monitor him. Of course, ultimately, make sure that..that ..person won't come any closer to her husband.
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I'm relating that to her earlier "asking Ennis to buy a pack of cigarette as a mean to bring him back". After she saw what she saw, her mental state basically stayed in "Ennis, you stay here, don't go out with that ...that...person". So, the next morning, her husband was back, she had to come up with any execuse (just like the one with buying cigarette) to keep Ennis home, where she could see and monitor him. Of course, ultimately, make sure that..that ..person won't come any closer to her husband.
And this is so human! Can't you just relate to being with someone who you can TELL is attracted to someone else. Your gut reaction, I think, would be to keep YOUR person with YOU so you can manage/monitor what happens! I love this.
And I agree with tpe who wrote "Ennis probably just wasn't thinking. He was almost ridiculously careless with Alma regarding the time he spent with Jack."
Perfect wording. Ennis was ridiculously careless with Alma. Not in keeping with his usual guarded self. It's another example of Jack's influence on Ennis. Jack may not have gotten Ennis in the way he wanted - but he sure got to him!
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She says that line about coffee after looking at Jack waiting for Ennis, from the window..
I think she hates Jack for this arrogant and disrespectful attitude...
Indeed Jack acts like she doesn't exists
so for me it's not curiosity..it's resentment : after ALL he doesn't even come in and say hello...
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Well, Jack and Alma were introduced the day before... why come in again at all if Ennis said "I'm just gonna grab my toothbrush." ?
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Well, Jack and Alma were introduced the day before... why come in again at all if Ennis said "I'm just gonna grab my toothbrush." ?
Yes..this is the Jack&Ennis point of you...they act like if Alma doesn't exist.
Ennis is a sort of roadroller in that scene..
a "bit offensive" for Alma.
P.S. offensive in any case..
in my country (but I think everywhere) if someone was leaving for a little trip with my husband,
then he'ld have to come in and say something: goodbay , good morning.. whatever you want,
even if I didn't know him well, maybe mainly in this case...
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Just makes me wonder if Ennis knew that she knew at that point because of her facial expressions, when Jack was introduced to her.
The story suggests Ennis knew Alma must have seen them from the door. And just had to brazen it out in front of her, introducing Jack to be polite--but get it over quickly and get away with Jack asap.
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In the book, they have a short chat about the children, Jack telling them he has an 8 month old son.
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I think Alma invites Jack in for three reasons, some have already been mentioned:
1. She wants to postpone their departure and interlude as long as she can.
2. She wants to see how they interact with one another and size up the competition.
3. She wants Jack to see she is a real livimg and breathing person whose life he is destroying.
This is similar ro murder trials. They tell the witnesses to use the deceased's name as frequently as possible to put a face on him/her. It brings more sympathy to the victim.
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Just makes me wonder if Ennis knew that she knew at that point because of her facial expressions, when Jack was introduced to her.
Ennis was in another place at that specific moment he was so not watching or thinking clearly neither jack
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I don't think this has been asked, but what do you all think Alma's motive was, to invite Jack in for coffee? Did she want to find out something more about this man to see why Ennis is so ga ga over him, or is she resigned to the fact that this man would be part of her life/family now, if she wanted to keep the marriage going for the sake of the kids?
I think Alma was totally confused at this point, didn't know what to think, what to say, how to feel or react and just tried to pretend that everything was normal while her head was spinning about full of questions so out of politeness asked about Jack being invited in for coffee.
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I was a little surprised how he rarely even acknowledges her existence before leaving for these "camping trips". Of course it only gets worse as the yrs. go by.
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I somehow think that Alma was trying (in a timid way) to be confrontational -- does this make sense to you? I somehow felt that her probing Ennis about seeing Jack and reasons for him not to go was a way of getting him to reveal more than he weas willing to let out. And I think Ennis vaguely understood this -- hence, his evasiveness...
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Alma got a shock when she saw them kissing. She could not believe it... When Ennis introduced her to Jack she had so many questions and she wanted them to be answered..now she was in shock to even yell and react and I dont think that she was the kind of person to create a scene..she just wanted to accept the reality first..Although she dint know the complete truth...When she wants to invite Jack for coffee IMO she wanted to know the following :
-How long they know each other
-Does Ennis have strong feelings for Jack or its just a passing phase and nothing serious
-What kind of a person is Jack
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I tend to believe that this question was only a way to measure-to say it in some way...-Ennis attention towards herself and towards Jack at the same time.If she was talking to Ennis,she could see by his reaction what she saw in the end;that Ennis was totally illusioned with Jack's visit and had no ears or eyes more than for him.IMO,the cup of coffee was just an excuse to see this,give her a time to react and get her plan,that she couldn't do because nobody take her into account.Surely,if Jack had come for having this cup,she would have observed their reactions together and she had done anything to avoid their journey.
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I am sure that Alma had a ton of questions she wantyed answered, but she understood that she was in a delicate position, and would have to appear "natural", in spite of everything that she saw. Still, it seemed that Ennis was adamant in not letting her get ANY opportunity to interact with Jack, and it would seem that he understood the danger of her knowing too much, even if he knew what she saw...
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Wow, never knew about this thread. Great question.
Let's see, what's been mentioned already:
1. someone quoted the shortstory...the electric current between the cowboys, vibrating floor board, the excitement to get out of there, and staying out all night...Alma sure knew, if she didn't already, that more than just a kiss was going on between those two. She could probably feel the heat and electricity from way over there.
2. great insights from mpj and asali, that Alma wanted to observe Jack and Ennis and see more of the interaction between them, not just the electric sparks.
3. Alma wants to understand this man who has such impact on her husband, to find out more
4. Simple hospitality and courtesy. It was kinda rude of Jack to come calling and not visit for a while. In fact, he knew Ennis was married so it was rude not to bring something on his first visit. To stand out there and not come in the next morning was even more rude.
5. Alma was really trying to make the marriage work. She said to get a sitter so they can go out for a nice dinner. Ennis shut her down from the get go, and never gave her a chance. He kept his Brokeback Mountain separate from his "stuck life in Riverton".
Texans don't drink coffee...Alma finally had enough of this rudeness and ready to give him a piece of her mind. Then Jr came in asking for a big fish, and she could say nothing, except with tears. Ennis saw 'em tears, but the separate part of his heart was pulling him out the door. He could do nothing about it. Got no reins on this one ladies. See you on Sunday. That's was a heart-wrenching scene.
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I tend to believe that this question was only a way to measure-to say it in some way...-Ennis attention towards herself and towards Jack at the same time.If she was talking to Ennis,she could see by his reaction what she saw in the end;that Ennis was totally illusioned with Jack's visit and had no ears or eyes more than for him.IMO,the cup of coffee was just an excuse to see this,give her a time to react and get her plan,that she couldn't do because nobody take her into account.Surely,if Jack had come for having this cup,she would have observed their reactions together and she had done anything to avoid their journey.
I've always been fascinated with this relationship. Jack and Alma. Ennis's wife and his lover. Rivals. If I remember correctly, it was Jack who coaxed Ennis to extend the reunion while in the motel room.
The information that her husband Ennis was going "fishing" with Jack for a few days would be of no value except..she had seen the kiss.
She knows her husband and Jack have gone there before , but how did it get this far without a clue? I agree that Alma wanted to observe the two of them further, perhaps to find out just how deep this thing went. No doubt she felt that Ennis had misrepresented himself to her. Not even with some other ranchand co-worker., but with Jack, a gorgeous,successful Texas business man, fancy, and worldly by her traditional standards. She may have been intimidated, but she slso knew she had alot to lose. She was confused and shocked. and that morning , had Jack come up, it would not be just polite conversation for long. It was not until she sees Jack still downstairs, that she goes into full desperation mode saying anything to keep Ennis from leaving again.That's why Ennis was not going there. His behavior during this scene is to get some distance between he and Jack and Alma for his own sake. The ex-lover and the wife coming face to face over coffee?, to talk about what? Who wants to sweat it out in THAT hotseat?? Not Ennis or Jack.
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Wow, never knew about this thread. Great question.
Let's see, what's been mentioned already:
1. someone quoted the shortstory...the electric current between the cowboys, vibrating floor board, the excitement to get out of there, and staying out all night...Alma sure knew, if she didn't already, that more than just a kiss was going on between those two. She could probably feel the heat and electricity from way over there.
2. great insights from mpj and asali, that Alma wanted to observe Jack and Ennis and see more of the interaction between them, not just the electric sparks.
3. Alma wants to understand this man who has such impact on her husband, to find out more
4. Simple hospitality and courtesy. It was kinda rude of Jack to come calling and not visit for a while. In fact, he knew Ennis was married so it was rude not to bring something on his first visit. To stand out there and not come in the next morning was even more rude.
5. Alma was really trying to make the marriage work. She said to get a sitter so they can go out for a nice dinner. Ennis shut her down from the get go, and never gave her a chance. He kept his Brokeback Mountain separate from his "stuck life in Riverton".
Texans don't drink coffee...Alma finally had enough of this rudeness and ready to give him a piece of her mind. Then Jr came in asking for a big fish, and she could say nothing, except with tears. Ennis saw 'em tears, but the separate part of his heart was pulling him out the door. He could do nothing about it. Got no reins on this one ladies. See you on Sunday. That's was a heart-wrenching scene.
Lance, you are right in your observation that thr entry of Jr in that scene intruded on Alma's resolve to confront Ennis, and I do think that when we see Ennis look into Alma's eyes when he carries Jr, we see a silent plea to ask no more questions, even as it reflected a mixture of guilt, discomfort, and pity.
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Lance, you are right in your observation that thr entry of Jr in that scene intruded on Alma's resolve to confront Ennis, and I do think that when we see Ennis look into Alma's eyes when he carries Jr, we see a silent plea to ask no more questions, even as it reflected a mixture of guilt, discomfort, and pity.
I don't know about guilt, discomfort or pity. Then again, I ain't no good at reading emotional signals from body language so you may be right.
I just thought that the look Ennis gave Alma, was like the one he gave her in the store, when he dropped off the kids and went off to the ranch. Alma said what about my job, and he was like, don't make a scene woman.
It was more of a scary look, with finality and kinda sorry lady. And the way he kissed Alma on the way out, on the forehead, shows the relationship was over. Who kisses their spouse on the forehead? %&) Except in foreplay. ::)
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I don't know about guilt, discomfort or pity. Then again, I ain't no good at reading emotional signals from body language so you may be right.
I just thought that the look Ennis gave Alma, was like the one he gave her in the store, when he dropped off the kids and went off to the ranch. Alma said what about my job, and he was like, don't make a scene woman.
It was more of a scary look, with finality and kinda sorry lady. And the way he kissed Alma on the way out, on the forehead, shows the relationship was over. Who kisses their spouse on the forehead? %&) Except in foreplay. ::)
Hmmm. Very interesting, lance. I must admit that I had never linked the 2 looks together. For me (at least prior to this), they were quite different, but I see your point. One could interpret some sense of finality in both looks -- it is true.
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Maybe it was Ennis's idea to have jack wait downstairs while he "explains" to Alma that he will be leaving again, just in case Alma gave him a problem about it, but i feel Alma already had it in for Jack. She did'nt know him, but she knew Ennis (or thoght she did). so Jack becomes the culprit, the nemisis, taking Ennis away from her and the girls. . Risking job loss,and "corrupting" her husband. The look on her face when she looks out the window and sees Jack still there speaks volumes. They are both forced to think quickly on their feet, Ennis is just as determined to get back with Jack as soon as possible as Alma is keeping Ennis with her. " he's from Texas" is not rational thinking, but Ennis does'nt really care at that point. Jack is waiting downstairs lookin so fine in that red shirt., after four years. He had no intentions of ending this thing and is not only feeling lucky, he is feeling grateful that he's gotten a 2nd chance. It came down to breaking Jack's heart or Alma's ...Advantage, Jack. . Alma never had a chance. My take.
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Maybe it was Ennis's idea to have jack wait downstairs while he "explains" to Alma that he will be leaving again, just in case Alma gave him a problem about it,
True enough. This is more than plausable. It was prudent.
but i feel Alma already had it in for Jack. She did'nt know him, but she knew Ennis (or thoght she did). so Jack becomes the culprit, the nemisis, taking Ennis away from her and the girls. . Risking job loss,and "corrupting" her husband. The look on her face when she looks out the window and sees Jack still there speaks volumes. They are both forced to think quickly on their feet, Ennis is just as determined to get back with Jack as soon as possible as Alma is keeping Ennis with her. " he's from Texas" is not rational thinking, but Ennis does'nt really care at that point. Jack is waiting downstairs lookin so fine in that red shirt., after four years. He had no intentions of ending this thing and is not only feeling lucky, he is feeling grateful that he's gotten a 2nd chance. It came down to breaking Jack's heart or Alma's ...Advantage, Jack. . Alma never had a chance. My take.
I also agree that after she saw the reunion kiss, Jack had become her nemesis. From then on, there would be no parley, as far as Alma's heart was concerned.
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Once again I agree w/ all of you. Good points as usual, Andrew. One thing that surprised me (esp. at first) ...Alma says "ain't you forgettin' somethin?"/ Ennis doesn't even bother to give her a peck on the cheek. Marriage over then-for what it's worth.
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Once again I agree w/ all of you. Good points as usual, Andrew. One thing that surprised me (esp. at first) ...Alma says "ain't you forgettin' somethin?"/ Ennis doesn't even bother to give her a peck on the cheek. Marriage over then-for what it's worth.
Exactly -- the absence of a kiss in that scene was intended to contrast with the kiss he gave Alma before joining Jack up in the mountains during the reunion. Ennis -- inspite of thwarting Alma's desire to "confront" Jack during the reunion -- still loved her then, in his own conflicted way.
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Exactly -- the absence of a kiss in that scene was intended to contrast with the kiss he gave Alma before joining Jack up in the mountains during the reunion. Ennis -- inspite of thwarting Alma's desire to "confront" Jack during the reunion -- still loved her then, in his own conflicted way.
Yes,he loved her in his own way,but not as much as he loved Jack.Maybe the kiss was a way to "make himself be forgiven",but in the second time he left Alma to be with his lover,his election was already done.And the absence of another goodbye kiss it's for me a symbol of this election.Even if that was going to be in his heart,never in an active and rational way.
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I know that Alma still loved Ennis, but I don't think Ennis loved her. I think she came to love Monroe, if for no other reason than him being father, provider and protecter.
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Yes,he loved her in his own way,but not as much as he loved Jack.Maybe the kiss was a way to "make himself be forgiven",but in the second time he left Alma to be with his lover,his election was already done.And the absence of another goodbye kiss it's for me a symbol of this election.Even if that was going to be in his heart,never in an active and rational way.
I completely agree with what u have said MPJ ^f^
I think that Ennis did care for Alma..there r all kinds of love in this world..he loved Alma as she was the mother of his children..she was a good person basically...he never wanted to hurt her intentionally...Ennis love for Jack is the most pure love though..It is above all...He loved Jack beyond limits...I think when Ennis dint kiss Alma the second time Alma realized that Ennis is all for Jack and he loved him the most...
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I completely agree with what u have said MPJ ^f^
I think that Ennis did care for Alma..there r all kinds of love in this world..he loved Alma as she was the mother of his children..she was a good person basically...he never wanted to hurt her intentionally...Ennis love for Jack is the most pure love though..It is above all...He loved Jack beyond limits...I think when Ennis dint kiss Alma the second time Alma realized that Ennis is all for Jack and he loved him the most...
I feel from the moment Jack informed Ennis that the summer on Brokeback was ending,( "bring em down"), Ennis started trying to convince himself that the one shot thing was just that , what bolstered and levied that argument with himself was that he was engaged to Alma. She was waiting in the wings to sweep him off to a life with a face he could show society and that Jack would eventually become a memory of a distant summer on Brokeback Mt. Jack was "fun" , Alma will prove to him that Jack WAS just a one time thing. Marrying Alma would prove to himself he was on the " straight and narrow". He thought by marrying her he could let Jack go and move on. I think he really beleive it at first.,....all the time knowing the truth of the matter...... as he confesses to Jack, , I shoulda " never let you outta my sight" after only one year of marriage to her. Marrying her did not change the love he had for Jack in any way. That realization must have hung over Ennis the next 3 years , like a longing shadow until Jack reunited with him.The one he was "in love" with.
Certainly for Alma she felt she had a good life, with a good man, but things could'nt have been further from the truth. I think he believed in and loved having family, his girls , no doubt the apple of his eye, Alma gave him that. I feel he liked being taken care of by her and was close to her. But did he lover her? As you say Smartsonia, there are many ways to love someone. He loved her, got used to her company, but no way as intense as he felt for Jack. He learned Alma , a woman he loved ,only fullfilled part of his need, Jack, a man, in every sense of the word, fullied all of them. I feel Jack made him feel whole and complete, a real part of someone else. I could'nt help but feel sorry for her, but Ennis and Jack just belonged together.
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Thanks aintfoolin...I also feel that when Ennis said that it was a one shot thing it was like a defense mechanism…Marrying Alma was the best way to prove himself straight and to protect himself from the world…He could cover all the truth that way..he did love and care for Alma in his own way….and its obvious that he can never love anyone the way he loves Jack..that is the ultinmate reality..Jack was the love of his life and the passion, intimacy, depth of love he shared with Jack is out of the world and too beautiful…I also feel sorry for Alma as she loved Ennis a lot but Ennis ands Jack r soulmates and meant to be together always..I think Alma deserved to know that truth…
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I know that Alma still loved Ennis, but I don't think Ennis loved her. I think she came to love Monroe, if for no other reason than him being father, provider and protecter.
I think his love for her later became embittered. I wonder too whether any vestige of their former love survived in the end. Probably not.
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Yes,he loved her in his own way,but not as much as he loved Jack.Maybe the kiss was a way to "make himself be forgiven",but in the second time he left Alma to be with his lover,his election was already done.And the absence of another goodbye kiss it's for me a symbol of this election.Even if that was going to be in his heart,never in an active and rational way.
I have thought sometimes that this kiss was a goodbye kiss on a much deeper level...
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I have thought sometimes that this kiss was a goodbye kiss on a much deeper level...
Yes,it was a kind of saying goodbye to some hidden and denied feelings and saying goodbye to the kind of life Alma and Ennis had had until that moment.At least,it was going to be so in his heart,although never in his real intentions...
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Do you think that THAT kiss is in the form of a betrayal? As in a Judas kiss?
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Do you think that THAT kiss is in the form of a betrayal? As in a Judas kiss?
Perhaps not so,but a kind of "relieving" himself from the more or less great guilt feeling he must have,even if he didn't realise it because his happiness for having Jack in the end was much greater.
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Perhaps not so,but a kind of "relieving" himself from the more or less great guilt feeling he must have,even if he didn't realise it because his happiness for having Jack in the end was much greater.
I can't help but think sometimes that -- although Ennis never intended the kiss to mean as such -- Alma understood it as a kind of a betrayal, in the style of Judas, who, after all, "loved" the Master he betrayed.
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I can't help but think sometimes that -- although Ennis never intended the kiss to mean as such -- Alma understood it as a kind of a betrayal, in the style of Judas, who, after all, "loved" the Master he betrayed.
No,I also think that Ennis never intended that the kiss had this meaning; even if he must feel a little guilty,or at least,badly,and even if he was feeling happier than guilty,really.
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Imo , certainly Ennis had to be feeling a certain amount of guilt at this stage when he kissed her. He was kind of hesitant to do so and his eyes spoke of something that could'nt be said out loud and that is... he was feeling resentful of her. Almost having to do more with the feelings toward her as opposed to those feelings he had for Jack. As for the the kiss, he was doing what he thought he was "supposed" to do at the most, what was expected of him at the moment. I think he grew to resent her because she was'nt Jack. Sub-conciensly he may have been *punishing" her. He totally disregarded her concerns about him leaving with Jack again and if she'd never saw what she saw , this still would go down as a huge diss to her feelings about it.
She had every excuse in the book to make him stay, and he used every excuse in the book to counter her so to him, it was never a matter of him not going, only a matter of how he could do it with the least amount of negative confrontation and guilt. Nothing short of chaining him to a chair was gonna keep him from his Jack. As painful as that was for her, she already knew she was fighting a losing battle.
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Thanks MPJ and aintfoolin. The reason I brought this up was apprently also noticed by aintfoolin: the guilty look in Ennis's eyes. But both of you do point out that it could be more about guilt than betrayal, although I tend to think that these 2 aredifferent sides of the same coin...
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Thanks MPJ and aintfoolin. The reason I brought this up was apprently also noticed by aintfoolin: the guilty look in Ennis's eyes. But both of you do point out that it could be more about guilt than betrayal, although I tend to think that these 2 aredifferent sides of the same coin...
Your right tpe, I feel betrayal and guilt did go hand in hand at that moment. As you say, "diffeent sides of the same coin", Imo he saw in her eyes that he was betraying her, and I feel that accounts for the guilt. He was'nt asking her permission nor her opinion. Jack was still in town and was waiting downstairs. She knew it was settled when she desperatly followed him throught the house, of course she had to try... Though Ennis may have felt betrayal and guilt , it still was'nt enough to overcome his desire to be with Jack and she knew it. So did he. "See you Sunday , latest", I think that's what he said, I may be wrong.
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Your right tpe, I feel betrayal and guilt did go hand in hand at that moment. As you say, "diffeent sides of the same coin", Imo he saw in her eyes that he was betraying her, and I feel that accounts for the guilt. He was'nt asking her permission nor her opinion. Jack was still in town and was waiting downstairs. She knew it was settled when she desperatly followed him throught the house, of course she had to try... Though Ennis may have felt betrayal and guilt , it still was'nt enough to overcome his desire to be with Jack and she knew it. So did he. "See you Sunday , latest", I think that's what he said, I may be wrong.
This is exactly how I felt. I should note that there is also a look of determination on Ennis's eyes and face -- a sense of steeling himself and a sense of no backing out. And as you said, for Alma, she felt trapeed by the seeming inevitability of it all. She sense that there was nothing she could do to stop him.
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Ennis was unstoppable. He says "see you Sunday, ladies."
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Ennis was unstoppable. He says "see you Sunday, ladies."
He was essentially "slamming" the door at her face. No exit.
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She's obviously surprised.
I think that she can't believe what it's happened. She wants to talk with them (but she doesn't know what to say indeed ) and understand why Ennis has doing it.
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She's obviously surprised.
I think that she can't believe what it's happened. She wants to talk with them (but she doesn't know what to say indeed ) and understand why Ennis has doing it.
I think you are spot on. My feeling is that Alma's desire to see or even confront Jack was totally irrational and not pre-meditated. I also had a feeling that she had no idea what to say anyway. But to understand Ennis at that point, she needed to know more about Jack, and the only wat to do this was to see him face to face. Perhaps Ennis knew this also, and that was why he was intent to keep Alma and Jack separated.
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I think you are spot on. My feeling is that Alma's desire to see or even confront Jack was totally irrational and not pre-meditated. I also had a feeling that she had no idea what to say anyway. But to understand Ennis at that point, she needed to know more about Jack, and the only wat to do this was to see him face to face. Perhaps Ennis knew this also, and that was why he was intent to keep Alma and Jack separated.
I don't think that a woman in this situation can do anything but irrationally; we are happy by seeing Ennis and Jack's happiness,but as many times in life,happiness is built over someone else's anguish and sorrow.And it's obvious and doubtless that-even if some of us have seen Alma as an "enemy" of our boys sweet life-a woman who loves deeply his husband and discovers in such a brutal way that he's cheating her -with another man,moreover-,can't react in a pre-meditated way as all her world is breaking.
So,I have always thought that her first and main intention was trying to understand and after that,trying to know in what she had failed-something very usual in women in this situation...-; if her rival had been another woman,she had known how to fight with the another woman's "weapons",but a man,in a rural and inarticulate woman of the 60's,was too much as to be able to make a planning and fight for her love...As you Thomas,say,she needed to know more about Jack to have an answer to her questions; if sooner or later,she had confronted him,it's something that we can only suppose or imagine.
But,surely Ennis saw this possibility more clearly,although he didn't know for sure that they had been seen,and,to avoid it,he wanted to separate them.Letting aside the fact that there have been too many years without one another; too many words to say,too many "things" to do >:D ,too little time to be together...Knowing Ennis or not that Alma knew it,the most logical is that he didn't want to share Jack more than in the way he was obliged to share him...
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She is shocked... not only because the husband has betrayed her, but because he's done it with a man, more shocking for that time and so...
During the night she evidently doesn't sleep and when Ennis comes back she thinks that he invites Jack for coffè because there's nothing to hidden, or better, according to Ennis, she has nothing to sospect.
Anyway she wants to have a direct contact with Jack. He's her "rival".
I was so sad when in the next scene she cries and sees them go away...Ennis who frantically goes to Jack...
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She is shocked... not only because the husband has betrayed her, but because he's done it with a man, more shocking for that time and so...
During the night she evidently doesn't sleep and when Ennis comes back she thinks that he invites Jack for coffè because there's nothing to hidden, or better, according to Ennis, she has nothing to sospect.
Anyway she wants to have a direct contact with Jack. He's her "rival".
I was so sad when in the next scene she cries and sees them go away...Ennis who frantically goes to Jack...
Yes,being cheated by your husband with another man is something that adds a plus of dramatism to the situation.A plus because it's something Alma can't manage with,not at the same level as if her rival was another woman.And yes,maybe she asks Ennis to invite Jack for coffee as a way to check his reaction; if there's nothing to hide,there's no reason to show oneself "sociable",to call it somehow.And,at the same time,she could see how is this man,how is in his reactions and his way of being; trying to understand always what had this man that she hadn't-letting aside some "things",of course... >:D -.But I don't think that her behaviour is premeditated almost never,but guided by sorrow and dispair.
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Very insightful. And it is true that much happiness is built on other people's sorrow. Is the amount of happiness in the world a fixed amount? Can it only go so far with a person? Sometimes, I think that this is the case... To Alma, perhaps the calculus was a painful reality. When someone takes, another has to give, whether he or she likes it or not.
I don't think that a woman in this situation can do anything but irrationally; we are happy by seeing Ennis and Jack's happiness,but as many times in life,happiness is built over someone else's anguish and sorrow.And it's obvious and doubtless that-even if some of us have seen Alma as an "enemy" of our boys sweet life-a woman who loves deeply his husband and discovers in such a brutal way that he's cheating her -with another man,moreover-,can't react in a pre-meditated way as all her world is breaking.
So,I have always thought that her first and main intention was trying to understand and after that,trying to know in what she had failed-something very usual in women in this situation...-; if her rival had been another woman,she had known how to fight with the another woman's "weapons",but a man,in a rural and inarticulate woman of the 60's,was too much as to be able to make a planning and fight for her love...As you Thomas,say,she needed to know more about Jack to have an answer to her questions; if sooner or later,she had confronted him,it's something that we can only suppose or imagine.
But,surely Ennis saw this possibility more clearly,although he didn't know for sure that they had been seen,and,to avoid it,he wanted to separate them.Letting aside the fact that there have been too many years without one another; too many words to say,too many "things" to do >:D ,too little time to be together...Knowing Ennis or not that Alma knew it,the most logical is that he didn't want to share Jack more than in the way he was obliged to share him...
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So the invitation is an attempt to make things appear normal. I think this is what you suggest here, and it may very well be. If this was not what you mwant, then I apologize!
She is shocked... not only because the husband has betrayed her, but because he's done it with a man, more shocking for that time and so...
During the night she evidently doesn't sleep and when Ennis comes back she thinks that he invites Jack for coffè because there's nothing to hidden, or better, according to Ennis, she has nothing to sospect.
Anyway she wants to have a direct contact with Jack. He's her "rival".
I was so sad when in the next scene she cries and sees them go away...Ennis who frantically goes to Jack...
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Very insightful. And it is true that much happiness is built on other people's sorrow. Is the amount of happiness in the world a fixed amount? Can it only go so far with a person? Sometimes, I think that this is the case... To Alma, perhaps the calculus was a painful reality. When someone takes, another has to give, whether he or she likes it or not.
:t) Thomas ¡ And Alma had to give,I don't know if also give up; but at least,give her part of happinness to Ennis,that's for sure.
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Alma certainly didn't want to give willingly. But she had no choice. Hence, she decided that 2 could play the game, and perhaps started to plan her life around people and things outside of Ennis's control. Hence, she was ripe for the taking (i.e., Monroe).
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Well, I can't disagree with your answers. I think that Alma, inviting Jack for coffee was trying to control the situation - if she kept an eye on them, they wouldn't be able to do anything she disliked... For me it would be the reason to do the same ;), just to know what's going on. And - I hope I will never find out for sure - but I think for me it would be easier to live with my husband cheating me with a man, than with a woman... The other woman means I'm "worse", bu the other man - it's a category I can't compete in.
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Well, I can't disagree with your answers. I think that Alma, inviting Jack for coffee was trying to control the situation - if she kept an eye on them, they wouldn't be able to do anything she disliked... For me it would be the reason to do the same ;), just to know what's going on. And - I hope I will never find out for sure - but I think for me it would be easier to live with my husband cheating me with a man, than with a woman... The other woman means I'm "worse", bu the other man - it's a category I can't compete in.
I don't know if we call it exactly "control the situation";I'd call it better "understand the situation".Alma was a woman with all her life builded around their family and home,with a great love for her daughters...and her husband.All of a sudden,she realised this building had no so solid foundations as she thought; at least,her love was not as corresponded by her husband's side because he was waiting for a yesterday's friend simply to show him a love she could think was only for her...It's too much for any woman in this case,I bet ¡...
As regards as if it's "better" to be cheated with a man than with another woman,I think sometimes it reveals that something wasn't as good inside this couple as it could seem,so maybe,to call it somehow,the cheated part is not as good...However,at least with another woman one can find with her same weapons,while with a man you never know for sure what you can give your husband in return,you are always a little outsider there.JMHO.
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It's sure I judge Alma's behavior as if she was me ;). It's hard to explain for me, it still fits better to say "control", but as English is not my native language, it's possible I can't express myself so precisely.
Myprivatejack, you say "However,at least with another woman one can find with her same weapons,while with a man you never know for sure what you can give your husband in return,you are always a little outsider there.JMHO." I feel similarly, but I would pull it to an extent: if it was a woman, I would feel obliged to fight, and if it was a man, I would be devastated the same, but I wouldn't feel this pressure to fight, because I would be an outsider there. So the other woman creates the situation of uncertainty - you can win or not; the other man makes situation clearer: you can't win, because you can't fight. Sometimes the truth, however painful, is better than months of uncertainty.
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So the invitation is an attempt to make things appear normal. I think this is what you suggest here, and it may very well be. If this was not what you mwant, then I apologize!
Yes, it is what I meant
I don't know if we call it exactly "control the situation";I'd call it better "understand the situation".Alma was a woman with all her life builded around their family and home,with a great love for her daughters...and her husband.All of a sudden,she realised this building had no so solid foundations as she thought; at least,her love was not as corresponded by her husband's side because he was waiting for a yesterday's friend simply to show him a love she could think was only for her...It's too much for any woman in this case,I bet ¡...
As regards as if it's "better" to be cheated with a man than with another woman,I think sometimes it reveals that something wasn't as good inside this couple as it could seem,so maybe,to call it somehow,the cheated part is not as good...However,at least with another woman one can find with her same weapons,while with a man you never know for sure what you can give your husband in return,you are always a little outsider there.JMHO.
I agree...she wants to understand or try to understand
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Well, I can't disagree with your answers. I think that Alma, inviting Jack for coffee was trying to control the situation - if she kept an eye on them, they wouldn't be able to do anything she disliked... For me it would be the reason to do the same ;), just to know what's going on. And - I hope I will never find out for sure - but I think for me it would be easier to live with my husband cheating me with a man, than with a woman... The other woman means I'm "worse", bu the other man - it's a category I can't compete in.
How interesting...
I certainly think that she wanted to be in control of the situation. I think it is natural for people to want this when they are in a position of desperation. It is a form of denial, I guess...
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Tpe, you made a great remark! The form of denial that anything is going wrong: if I am the one who controlls the situation, I can easily convince myself that all is OK.
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Anyhow,she tries desperately to find out how this man was and what he had that she hadn't-and I'm not talking about dirty jokes,you nasty ¡ %( -;but in the sense of discovering if maybe he had given something she didn't want or know to give him up to that moment...To find out to a certain point if she had failed in something and,if so,in what.And,surely,yes,pretending everything was OK before the two men she was also denying what had happenned,giving the impression of a "happy family with a friend"who are being sociable with each other.Eyes that don't see,heart that don't feel...
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Tpe, you made a great remark! The form of denial that anything is going wrong: if I am the one who controlls the situation, I can easily convince myself that all is OK.
Exactly. I think we all experienced something like this sometime in our lifetimes -- the need to be in control in order to feel that things are under control. When things move to fast for us, we become petty with regard to what we can or cannot influence.
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Anyhow,she tries desperately to find out how this man was and what he had that she hadn't-and I'm not talking about dirty jokes,you nasty ¡ %( -;but in the sense of discovering if maybe he had given something she didn't want or know to give him up to that moment...To find out to a certain point if she had failed in something and,if so,in what.And,surely,yes,pretending everything was OK before the two men she was also denying what had happenned,giving the impression of a "happy family with a friend"who are being sociable with each other.Eyes that don't see,heart that don't feel...
So do you think that she wanted to discover what he had that she didn't? This certainly is a clear manifestation of insecurity. Did she think that by discovering the source of Ennis's attraction to Jack, she could win back her husband or undermine the pernicious attraction?
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I think you are spot on. My feeling is that Alma's desire to see or even confront Jack was totally irrational and not pre-meditated. I also had a feeling that she had no idea what to say anyway. But to understand Ennis at that point, she needed to know more about Jack, and the only wat to do this was to see him face to face. Perhaps Ennis knew this also, and that was why he was intent to keep Alma and Jack separated.
The woman has obviously been up all night after seeing them kissing and Ennis not coming home. We see her sitting at the kitchen table drinking coffee when they finally show up the next morning. OMG just think of all the images that ran through her mind all night, all the questions, all the total disbelief at what she witnessed. Then Ennis comes bolting in, leaving Jack downstairs waiting on him. Ennis is acting totally weird, almost ignoring her and just answering her questions by mostly cutting her off. He definitely did not want her and Jack in the same room ever again so he says "Texans don't drink coffee" just kind of brushing off that question and it was such a silly answer. You could just see the situation getting worse and worse for Alma as she followed him around the apartment.
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Her following him around is certainly a telling detail. It clearly shows a tenacity -- an unwillingness to be just brushed aside. Still, with nothing concrete to confont him with, she couldn't do much. Perhaps wanting to confront Jack was a desire to find or fish for some concrete detail that would allow her to confront Ennis...
The woman has obviously been up all night after seeing them kissing and Ennis not coming home. We see her sitting at the kitchen table drinking coffee when they finally show up the next morning. OMG just think of all the images that ran through her mind all night, all the questions, all the total disbelief at what she witnessed. Then Ennis comes bolting in, leaving Jack downstairs waiting on him. Ennis is acting totally weird, almost ignoring her and just answering her questions by mostly cutting her off. He definitely did not want her and Jack in the same room ever again so he says "Texans don't drink coffee" just kind of brushing off that question and it was such a silly answer. You could just see the situation getting worse and worse for Alma as she followed him around the apartment.
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So do you think that she wanted to discover what he had that she didn't? This certainly is a clear manifestation of insecurity. Did she think that by discovering the source of Ennis's attraction to Jack, she could win back her husband or undermine the pernicious attraction?
I think any cheated and deceived woman wants to discover the reason why she's so;and one of the ways to discover it is trying to know better how her rival is,which is her or his "power",to call it somehow.Of course that this is a clear manifestation of insecurity on Alma's side ¡ All her world is breaking down in only few minutes,everything what she believed in means nothing all of a sudden,everything she has given to her husband,all the love she has shown to him,has no importance bearing in mind what she saw...What kind of security in her marriage,in her life,in herself,can a woman like Alma have now?IMO,very little...So,surely many women in this situation would try and recover her husband's attraction about her; but when this rival is a man,then she feels like being in offside-talking a football's language...-and maybe she needs -more still than with another woman- to know which are the roots of this attraction,as a last and desperate way to win him back.
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Her following him around is certainly a telling detail. It clearly shows a tenacity -- an unwillingness to be just brushed aside. Still, with nothing concrete to confont him with, she couldn't do much. Perhaps wanting to confront Jack was a desire to find or fish for some concrete detail that would allow her to confront Ennis...
Maybe her following him around all flat is a way of pretending to find some little detail,some gesture,that could corroborate her fears and,at the same,another little detail or gesture that made Ennis closer to her.As a way of denying unconsciously what she had witnessed,by telling herself that Ennis still loved her and preferred her to Jack for an smile or a caress...Even if I think that,frankly, if a woman sees her husband kissing so passionately "a friend",she had a lot of details to confront him ¡ ;)
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The fact that the rival was a man and not a woman must have been especially perplexing for Alma, if her instinct was indeed to try to win Ennis back. After all, sh probably couldn't begin to imagine why any man would favor another man sexually instead of a woman...
I think any cheated and deceived woman wants to discover the reason why she's so;and one of the ways to discover it is trying to know better how her rival is,which is her or his "power",to call it somehow.Of course that this is a clear manifestation of insecurity on Alma's side ¡ All her world is breaking down in only few minutes,everything what she believed in means nothing all of a sudden,everything she has given to her husband,all the love she has shown to him,has no importance bearing in mind what she saw...What kind of security in her marriage,in her life,in herself,can a woman like Alma have now?IMO,very little...So,surely many women in this situation would try and recover her husband's attraction about her; but when this rival is a man,then she feels like being in offside-talking a football's language...-and maybe she needs -more still than with another woman- to know which are the roots of this attraction,as a last and desperate way to win him back.
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Maybe her following him around all flat is a way of pretending to find some little detail,some gesture,that could corroborate her fears and,at the same,another little detail or gesture that made Ennis closer to her.As a way of denying unconsciously what she had witnessed,by telling herself that Ennis still loved her and preferred her to Jack for an smile or a caress...Even if I think that,frankly, if a woman sees her husband kissing so passionately "a friend",she had a lot of details to confront him ¡ ;)
I do think that her following him around the apartment is like a half-hearted attempt at confrontation. Alma's problem was that she didn't have the courage to bring it all out in the open, allowing Ennis to have his way. Did Ennis know that she knew. I suspect that he did. He probably fely that it was written all over his face -- the same type of paranoia that he would later confess to Jack.
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I think Alma was finally realizing that Jack was not there to visit Ennis,*the family man*, to enjoy an old fishing buddy AND his wife and children, but to reclaim a * male lover* from the past , now her husband.
Ennis had already stayed out all night with Jack, herself uninvited, after she'd seen them kiss, and now he was leaving with him again. I cannot think of any good reason why Alma would invite Jack up for coffee after seeing what she saw except maybe she was still in denial or this was a desperate attempt on her part to have Jack up and try to appeal to Jack's own sense of *family loyalties* without letting either man know of her "discovery", for her and the kids' sake, perhaps still hoping that whatever was in the past between Jack and her husband could remain in the past and Jack would eventually bow out.
She had no idea, or warning of the magnitude of feelings involved between the two men.
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Yes, I think that she realized that as far as Jack and Ennis were concerned, she and the kids were outsiders. So, perhaps her trying to insert herself between Jack and Ennis was a typical outsider reaction of wanting in, whether they liked it or not. had she been more pushy, perhaps she would have made Ennis pause and be more cautious. But I think she was much to hurt at that point to care too much about pretenses. Sad that love can exclude as much as it can include.
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Exactly - by following Ennis and talking about buying cigarettes she wanted him to NOTICE her presence (more even, her existance), as - obviously - when Jack appeared, she and the kids became invisible for Ennis.
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Exactly - by following Ennis and talking about buying cigarettes she wanted him to NOTICE her presence (more even, her existance), as - obviously - when Jack appeared, she and the kids became invisible for Ennis.
You do get that sense of invisibility in that scene. Ennis wasn't caring that much whether his responses to Alma's questions made any sense or not. I am sure that Alma realized this and wanted somehow to get into Ennis's pysche.
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You do get that sense of invisibility in that scene. Ennis wasn't caring that much whether his responses to Alma's questions made any sense or not. I am sure that Alma realized this and wanted somehow to get into Ennis's pysche.
I don't think that exactly Ennis wasn't caring about the sense of his responses;he,simply,was in another world the,with his thoughts put in the night of love he had just had with Jack and the days he was going to spent by his side.It wasn't a subject of caring or not for what Alma could think,but more a subject of caring more for Jack.So simple and so real.Of course,Alma realised this and wanted,yes,to get into Ennis's psyche at the same time that she was trying to recover his interest somehow,that he noticed he had some duties with her and the girls,that he was her husband again...Too hard task,indeed.
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Well, I think that was exactly my point -- although my wording may have been a bit misleading. He certainly was in another world, and he was probably not very conscious of what he was saying at that very moment. All he was thinking about was to go up to the mountains with Jack -- everything else was a blur.
I don't think that exactly Ennis wasn't caring about the sense of his responses;he,simply,was in another world the,with his thoughts put in the night of love he had just had with Jack and the days he was going to spent by his side.It wasn't a subject of caring or not for what Alma could think,but more a subject of caring more for Jack.So simple and so real.Of course,Alma realised this and wanted,yes,to get into Ennis's psyche at the same time that she was trying to recover his interest somehow,that he noticed he had some duties with her and the girls,that he was her husband again...Too hard task,indeed.
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I get the feeling that she invited jack for coffee because
a)she wanted to sus them both out (as a "couple")
b) she just wanted an excuse to get ennis to stay for at least a little longer before he ran off into the mountains with his "fishing buddy" :h:
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I get the feeling that she invited jack for coffee because
a)she wanted to sus them both out (as a "couple")
b) she just wanted an excuse to get ennis to stay for at least a little longer before he ran off into the mountains with his "fishing buddy" :h:
The second one is indeed a good point. It can be seen also as a desperate attempt to make Ennis stay -- even if it meant having to have jack in the same room with him. It was perhaps an admission -- Alma understood that to keep Jack there would be the best way to keep Ennis there also.