The only thing that he had control over (to some extent) was that he loved Ennis. That was his and no one could take that from him.
Wow---I knew a new question would lead me somewhere I hadn't been before, and this one did. Anger? There's a very short display of anger
on Jack's part that opens up a whole new understanding of what went wrong up on the mountain.
It's the kissing scene, when they re-unite again after 4 years. Give Ennis credit for at least this---he broke bad, he grabbed Jack, and kissed
him with an intensity maybe never seen before. And no preliminaries, either. No games.
So, look closer at Jack's facial expression--he didn't melt all warm and cuddly. There's ANGER, as he grabs Ennis and kisses him back and the
facial expression easily says: you son of a b**ch, you LOVED me, and you kept that from me, and I'm freaking ANGRY! Look, again, please--
Jack is stunned, and then angry, and then determined to show Ennis he will match him kiss for kiss and admit his own love.
Which means neither of them got the message across up there on the mountain. Please look for the shock and anger. It's there.
AMEN Michelle, MG and WW!!!
There's only a thing I disagree. I think that he had NOT control over his love for Ennis. He endured a lot of things that not all people had endured. He settled with dreaming and hoping for so many years 'cause he loved Ennis deeply, and if he had had control over his love, he had finished with all that suffer long time ago, but not even he was able to quit Ennis, 'cause he was absolutely powerless about his feelings for Ennis. Just MHO.
Puts all his cards on Ennis, the one he loves. The only one he finds peace, acceptance and completeness. I said in other threads that this where Jack underestimated where his power was. Imo This was it. His strong suite. . Ennis was not about to let him go. Could'nt. Jack owned him . Just look no further than him on his knees crying and sick over being seperated. And then The reeption he got in the reunion scene. I mean Jack has an major impact on the stubborn mule, Ennis.
Had Jack played his cards right and challenged Ennis more, overcame his own fear, and taken the bull by the horns, he could have worked with this. Yeah, yeah, I know, Ennis was stubborn as a mule, but he was vulnerable to Jack. A soft spot in the armor. I think he was angry at himself for not realizing sooner that he did'nt take control sooner.
Jack wanted it all, but there was no one in his life that was able to give it to him.
I agree. :)Agreed. There was so much pent up emotion. Jack was an only child--a son--and his father humiliated him. He tried to make his father 'proud' by rodeoing (like the old man) did. he probably felt that he never measured up. He was a loose pebble, rolling along, and looking for his life. He worked to have a little money, but it wasn't enough to live on. He mentions the 'army getting him' as an alternative. When he returns the following summer and talks with Aguirre, he decides to start again--and moves to TX.
Great posts everyone- everyone seems to be able to say it so concisely and I ramble on to get from point a to point b.
Agreed. There was so much pent up emotion. Jack was an only child--a son--and his father humiliated him. He tried to make his father 'proud' by rodeoing (like the old man) did. he probably felt that he never measured up. He was a loose pebble, rolling along, and looking for his life. He worked to have a little money, but it wasn't enough to live on. He mentions the 'army getting him' as an alternative. When he returns the following summer and talks with Aguirre, he decides to start again--and moves to TX.
Finally MG, speaks of his self-esteem. Something, I feel he lost at that young age growing up on LF. This may be another trigger to his anger and frustration. . As a man,he knew LD thought less of him, unworthy of his daughter ,and from day one moved in as a major influence on his son. , felt Jack had no rights there, well in the Thanksgiving scene he found out differently. Aguirre saw him unworthy as an employee, a ranch stiff, lazy and missing 42 sheep, and his father saw him unworthy as a son, unwilling to accept him as the man he chose to be. With Ennis he is an equal, even sometimes a nurturing teacher of Ennis ,and a true leader in love. With Ennis, he feels worthy of being loved just for being Jack. Though he could'nt shoot, ride, cook etc... Ennis needed him in his life and v/v. Jack knew he played a part in Ennis's happiness. his "lil darlin". That had to make him feel good. My 5 cents worth.
First---This is not a bash Jack thread niether do I place blame. I only seek to explore the root of his anger. Sometimes I feel it's justified, sometimes I don't. In his marriage ,LD, and Lureen appear to be controlling factors, in his relationship with Ennis, Ennis seems the controlling factor,( though he could'nt live without :s) Jack) Could'nt stand Aguirre's rules, but needs him too. This had to be frustrating for him.
Rejection from his father, himself very controlling and abusive. Could this be it? Jack's lack of control over his life? An inability to control the direction of his own life? Was he contributing to his own frustration and anger by waiting so long for Ennis? or did he feel led on with *mixed signals* seeing only what he wanted to see? .
I think he only wanted it all to make sense to him. When it did'nt, well just ask LD who dared go toe to toe with him at Thanksgiving. . but was his anger really justified in the confrontation scenes? The divorce scene? He was no wimp, that's for sure. Was his anger focused just on Ennis's rejection ,or at all the people who controlled who he could be his whole life?
Yeah, Ennis could've helped in a big way by agreeing to ranching up, but that was'nt happening, but does'nt he get some credit for being the sacrificing ,faithful , lover? He had his inner demons, yes, so did Jack. And last, did'nt Jack just grow to dread what being in love with someone who could'nt commit to him, did to him and his pride despite all his own sacrifices?, and try desperatly to quit Ennis but could'nt? I mean "one of them things " Ennis did'nt know about, and Jack was'nt tellin), was Randall ,waiting in the wings in Texas. Just sayin...../askin.
Jack brought alot of true happiness to alot of people , but to himself, it proved elusive. Was he just confused ? or an angry victim of fear?
. . . Was his anger focused just on Ennis's rejection, or at all the people who controlled who he could be his whole life?
Yet, there was a growing disatisfaction in him. Like a horse, he kicked, he had to. No matter how much he loved Ennis and he did. The years of waitin and wanting were wearing him down. He waited through all of Ennis trials and tributlations, and now he said to him "what about me, what about us".
I do think it was not only justified -- it was probably long overdue, given that Jack had a lot of frustration buried deep inside about his relatuionship with Ennis. It was certainly unhealthy for him to have NOT to have showed such anger.
There is the old latin saying that I always attribute to Jack: habet et musca splenem et formica bilem ("even a fly has a spleen and an ant has bile.") The question I think should be more of how he managed to keep it all inside of him for so long. Ennis was so difficult to read, and being so unreadable would have taxed the patience of anybody else.
I think Jack was willing to abide with all other frustrations, had he been able to fulfill his dream with Ennis. The fact that this always seemed out of reach didn't help with assuaging his inner anger. The miracle is that how little of it he showed over the years.
I feel the growing dissatisfaction stems from his growing acknowledgement that Ennis was not not going to budge from his position after so many years. Time was slipping away from him, and he wanted more. Felt Ennis owed him more, and imo he deserved more.
Certainly the years of waiting had worn him down, and still he waited. He'd listened patiently to Ennis's reasoning ,concerning Earl and Rich, gave Ennis up to Alma for 4 years, drove miles and miles for a few stolen moments whenever his man wanted. Whatever danger or fears that may come he was willing to deal with . To him, this was not just two guys meetin up every so often for fun and relaxation. It was a continuation of years and years of real true love for him in hopes that someday his proven love would be acknowledged and returned. Wanted his efforts matched . No doubt Jack tried to do his part. Ennis?... well he had his reasons... justified, but too much hidden., too much shame, too much fear. Jack just wanted to love unconditionally and be loved in return. Not to much to ask imo . He'd earned it. Just a thought.
Thanks Tammy.
You highlighted appropriately that passage in AF's post:
Felt Ennis owed him more, and imo he deserved more.
It was a question of expectiations, no? The root of Jack's anger in the final confrontation can be argued to arise from what I call the debt of love. It is that delicate balance between give and take, and I think in the case of Jack at that instance, the balance has gone too far in one direction, in his estimation.
Exactly, Jack went down that list: The twenty years, keeping him on that short leash, wanting to punish him because Ennis thinks and knows he been with others. Jack felt he made that payment in full, but not realizing until that moment what it costed Ennis.
Am I close?
I think so. What you say in the above seems to imply something I had wanted to say before: that perhaps Jack felt that Ennis was playing "mental games" with him, instead of realizing how broken Ennis truly was deep inside.
MPJ, good point about the lack of communication being the main problem between the two guys. If only they had talked out all their hurts and desires, but that was not to be. Jack may have been the more open one, but, in reality, he wasn't much more open that Ennis. He never told Ennis just how much he needed him on a regular basis. He hinted at it, but, until the last confrontation, never said the words. Meanwhile, Ennis made Jack feel lilke he was doing him a favor by taking off from work and going off with him. After a while, this gets old. I think Jack just began to feel like he was being takne advantage of ( maybe because Lureen felt that way and said it to him). He saw himself as doing all the giving and Ennis just doing the taking. Again, this could have been cleared up with a conversation -- one that never happened.:t) lamusica.Yes,Jack was far more open than Ennis,he spend 20 years demonstrating his feelings and what he wanted to fulfill them.But,in the end and going deeper inside him,he resulted almost as close as Ennis in what was really important:the WHY,the HOW and the WHEN.Really,spending half a life-time showing how much he loved or needed someone and also talking them loud in the end,when one must burst because one can't stand it anymore is not being very communicative-no matter with what kind of expressions you "disguise" it...-.But if Ennis made him feel like he was doing him a favour for the renouncements he did in order to be together,is because he wasn't able to express anything either;however,I think,now that I'm able to understand Ennis much better than some time ago,that his role wasn't easy either,as I've said before,don't you think?.He must leave jobs and other duties to be with his lover when his social status was not as well-to-do as Jack´s-as he says in the confrontation scene,where both of them are right in their own situation...-meanwhile he must fight against himself,more than against society and its intolerance.But,you're so right,with a simple conversation,a deep conversation between them,maybe a solution had been found much before.
That's was maybe the main Jack's fault and that shows how he can be a little sellfish-who is not so in Love's affairs at the end?-;passing almost 10 years complaining himself for Ennis lack of commitment and almost cowardice towards their relationship-and I'm not saying he was not right...-.But not realising how difficult was Ennis role,always divided between his feelings and his fears,his love for Jack and his environment duties.And not realising either that his own role of asking for what he wished was difficult to stand;but the role of someone who wishes something maybe at the same level(if not more)but had to hide it and denying all the time when he feels like saying YES is even more difficult.
It's logical he burst in the confrontation scene,because he must feel very disappointed by giving so much while he received-at least as it seemed-so little...But maybe never had he thought WHY Ennis felt that way,the reason of all these denials and what there was beyond Ennis apparent conformism.
I've always thought,and I think I've said this before,that the main problem in their relationship was a terrible lack of communication.They were good friends,not only lovers,surely the only friend Ennis had ever got,it's true;but the good communication that made Ennis open himself the most in his life when they were in BBM,the one that made him speak more in two weeks than in a whole year and explaining his new friends the most private happenings...This communication was good as friends,but it didn't serve as lovers,mostly it was a disaster.This happenned often when the relationship between two persons changes from friendship to love,but in their case it was tragic,IMHO.
MPJ, good point about the lack of communication being the main problem between the two guys. If only they had talked out all their hurts and desires, but that was not to be. Jack may have been the more open one, but, in reality, he wasn't much more open that Ennis. He never told Ennis just how much he needed him on a regular basis. He hinted at it, but, until the last confrontation, never said the words. Meanwhile, Ennis made Jack feel lilke he was doing him a favor by taking off from work and going off with him. After a while, this gets old. I think Jack just began to feel like he was being takne advantage of ( maybe because Lureen felt that way and said it to him). He saw himself as doing all the giving and Ennis just doing the taking. Again, this could have been cleared up with a conversation -- one that never happened.
To be fair to Jack, he did show remarkable patience in this regard, hanging on for nearly 20 years facing continuous rebuffs from Ennis. IN a way, I think it would have been healthier had he lost it earlier than the last confrontation. By the time it happened, it was probably too late. Too much angst and disappointment accumulated over the years...
Alas, it could have well been that talk between them was impossible, especially in the case of Ennis, where a slight provocation may have led to his withdrawing further into himself. I do agree that perhaps Jack should have forced the issue at an earlier time, like he did in the final confrontation scene. But I think he was motivated by his desire not to push Ennis into a corner. It was reasonable for him to assume that this would work, because this was how he got Ennis to open up to him in the beginning -- by not being confrontational, and leaving a lot of things unsaid.
There's a line in "Gone With The Wind", novel or movie - would take to long to look it up now! - where Rhett Butler says to Scarlett, when she decides she does love him after all, "Even the most deathless love can wear out." I don't think his did and I don't think Jack's did either, but there must come a time when you've done all you can, not just once but over and over, and you get frustrated and want some sort of acknowledgement that your efforts and feelings aren't just being ignored. Maybe at that point anger is uncontrollable, or maybe it's something you let fly in a final desperate effort to make an impact.
There's a line in "Gone With The Wind", novel or movie - would take to long to look it up now! - where Rhett Butler says to Scarlett, when she decides she does love him after all, "Even the most deathless love can wear out." I don't think his did and I don't think Jack's did either, but there must come a time when you've done all you can, not just once but over and over, and you get frustrated and want some sort of acknowledgement that your efforts and feelings aren't just being ignored. Maybe at that point anger is uncontrollable, or maybe it's something you let fly in a final desperate effort to make an impact.
I agree with you in that Jack could easily arrive to a point in which he felt he couldn't do anything else to change Ennis state of mind by pushing him to a commitment.Yes,he really wanted and looked for a proof that he hadn't given so much during so many years for nothing,or at least,for not as much as he was giving.But I keep on saying that he never pose the question of his wishes and hopes clearly before Ennis,what didn't mean a struggle,nor a difficult position for no one of them;but AN ANSWER in the end.I don't want to repite myself too much,but the lack of communication between them was really important;and it was important since the very moment they left BBM to any of the last scenes we see of both,in which-if you realise...-they didn't do anything else but arguing.And these argues were a clear proof of how frustrated they were,but also that the shouts always replace quiet and true conversations in the end,when communication is bad enough as to avoid them before it's too late,IMO.
I've always been fair to Jack;as a matter of fact,I've understood him better than Ennis during a lot of time... :) But it would be better not to be so patient with Ennis way of being and,at the same time,understand better his reasons,maybe for being understood in theirs.On the contrary,he was too patient and was managing the situation as well as he could; but,on the other hand, never understanding the inner motivations that push Ennis to behave like he did.A better balanced behaviour on Jack's side would have been more advisable,it's to say;pose the situation much before in a quiet,easy way,during an intimate conversation,after having thought very carefully in the "whys" that feared Ennis so much.Explode like a frustration's bomb after so many years of NOT TALKING ABOUT THEIR INNER WISHES AND FEARS is never a proper way of posing problems;they appear then in the worst way that is possible,in words,ways and purposes,IMO.Yes,you're right,it was how Jack thought it'd work,that's it,"not pushing Ennis into a corner"; and yes also,it was the way Ennis opened to him in the beginning.But,did this work in the same way in 1978,f.e.,than in 1963? I wonder.
It sort of seems that the two men "danced" around each other all those years. Jack didn't want to scare Ennis off, and Ennis couldn't reject his family and go off with Jack. They both were caught in their own personalities. Jack wanted so much, but knew pushing the issue would drive Ennis away. Ennis only wanted to be with Jack but was afraid to buck society and actually go off with him to make a life. Consequently, the build up of tension that constitutes the main conflict in the story. Had they been different, what would we be discussing? It is this wonderful difference between them that is so intriguing. Why did they do what they did? We have had a lot of fun trying to figure out this conundrom, no? Great discussion, guys.
There's a line in "Gone With The Wind", novel or movie - would take to long to look it up now! - where Rhett Butler says to Scarlett, when she decides she does love him after all, "Even the most deathless love can wear out." I don't think his did and I don't think Jack's did either, but there must come a time when you've done all you can, not just once but over and over, and you get frustrated and want some sort of acknowledgement that your efforts and feelings aren't just being ignored. Maybe at that point anger is uncontrollable, or maybe it's something you let fly in a final desperate effort to make an impact.
I do think Jack's ndoing was allowing the frustration to build up over they years, when he could have tried to bring it out in the open much sooner. Nothing kills love better than a gnawing feeling of inevitability... Maybe Jack should have taken more risks, even if he sensed that Ennis was unwilling to do so, and even if he did get hurt in the process.
The only scene where a confrontation would have proven difficult was the post-divorce meeting. Jack must have felt helpless indeed, because he couldn't push things the way he wanted in front of Ennis's children. I really felt for him in that scene. He was truly helpless in the face of circumstances, and was hurt deeply accordingly.
Yes,this is what I mean before:to cause a greater sorrow to avoid one littler and maybe necessary much before,for fear to the consequences...Well,the post-divorce meeting,even if painful about Jack,was a little risky and,even,selfish by Jack's part; because he knew it'd be difficult for Ennis to make a decision precisely in this delicate moment of his life-it´s not so easy say "Now I'm free,let's go¡"-.Because he hadn't said him anything about his journey to met themselves,so he didn't know in which circunstamces he'd find his partner.Because he only thought in his "sweet life" project but not in anything or anybody else,not even in Ennis...Well,I'm not clapping Ennis for his stupid way of rejecting Jack ;mainly I'd clap, but in his face...But I'm trying to put myself in each one's shoes...
I think everyone would agree that it was more typical for Jack to back off or at least to dissemble his true feelings, no? This is alway typical of persons who are prone to explode once they are pushed over the edge. What is also typical is the sheer unpredictability on when things can be said to have gone too far for the said individual.
Looking back at the last confrontation, one can even argue that the kernel of the dispute was not exactly atypical or extraordinary. How it became a flood from the initial trickle is interesting in and of itself. One is in no doubt that they have had numerous lovers' quarrels in the past, so one wonders whether or not Ennis had ever pushed back meeting dates with Jack prior to this and waht was Jack's previous reactions.
My suspicion is that Jack probably acquiesed too easily in prior instances, although this is pure speculation on my part. But one would like to think that Jack was not a drama queen of sorts, blowing things out of proportion, given the slightest excuse. The best way to explain the last confrontation, IMO, is that there have been similar incidents in the past, and Jack's acquiescence probably only served to increase the pressure of pent-up feelings buuilding inside of him.
And Jack may have also been very upset with himself for not putting his foot down sooner. Now it's all Ennis's fault for making him feel weak. It's LD all over again at this point. It's been Ennis's way for so long that he now feels cornered by his own reluctance to assert himself sooner. Ennis is caught off guard by Jack's harshness, a side of Jack he has never really seen. What does Jack have to show for his years of not rocking the boat? a sham marriage, a half life of lonliness, rejection, and Randall, a "fill in" for what he feels should be Ennis.
" Frankly by dear, I don't give a damn" Rhett Butler's swan song to Scarlett o' Hara, after she has rejected his love over and over. Both she and Ennis learned valuable lessons in love ,that fate can prove very ironic , in different ways. Jack died, Rhett left, and both of whom were left behind had deep regrets, after they had lost it all, but had no one to blame but themselves.
Maybe dancing is a good metaphor - I sometimes see them as a proton (Ennis) and an electron (Jack), the latter circling the former and for a long time without the energy to be forced out of his orbit but repulsed by the positive charge of the proton and so unable to spiral in to the center either. My grasp on the physics is probably limited, but it seems to me like that their emotions are a force of nature.
It occurs to me in reading about Jack getting’ mad, and the wonderful analysis of it here, that part of what got Jack so mad was simply the way in which Ennis broke this news to him, at the last minute standing by the truck. “Christ Ennis, you had a fu**in’ week to say some little word about this”. Sure, he’s disappointed that they can’t meet, but I wonder if he isn’t more disappointed that their relationship hasn’t evolved so that Ennis feels more comfortable, or understands how to share events in his life with him. Maybe this is what speaks more about their relationship, or at least Ennis’s own frozen emotional growth.
Ennis didn’t want to tell Jack, he clearly felt bad about it, especially after Jack’s “Sometimes I miss you so much . . ” remark. So he just procrastinated for the whole week not wanting to spoil things, but knowing it will. How much different it woulda’ been if Ennis, some evening when they were snuggled up in the tent (like the shot in the movie), had said somethin’ like “Jack, I had to promise Stoutamire I’d be there in August in order to get this time off with you, I won’t be able to get off again until November, my jobs’ on the line” I have to wonder what Jack’s reaction would have been. Can’t help but think they would have been able to work out something else.
Of course, that wouldn’t of been Ennis and woulda’ been a much different story.
It occurs to me in reading about Jack getting’ mad, and the wonderful analysis of it here, that part of what got Jack so mad was simply the way in which Ennis broke this news to him, at the last minute standing by the truck. “Christ Ennis, you had a fu**in’ week to say some little word about this”. Sure, he’s disappointed that they can’t meet, but I wonder if he isn’t more disappointed that their relationship hasn’t evolved so that Ennis feels more comfortable, or understands how to share events in his life with him. Maybe this is what speaks more about their relationship, or at least Ennis’s own frozen emotional growth.
Ennis didn’t want to tell Jack, he clearly felt bad about it, especially after Jack’s “Sometimes I miss you so much . . ” remark. So he just procrastinated for the whole week not wanting to spoil things, but knowing it will. How much different it woulda’ been if Ennis, some evening when they were snuggled up in the tent (like the shot in the movie), had said somethin’ like “Jack, I had to promise Stoutamire I’d be there in August in order to get this time off with you, I won’t be able to get off again until November, my jobs’ on the line” I have to wonder what Jack’s reaction would have been. Can’t help but think they would have been able to work out something else.
Of course, that wouldn’t of been Ennis and woulda’ been a much different story.
I agree with this, Ennis waited till the last minute to spring this little tidbit of news on Jack, when he could have done so much sooner. I feel it was done for two reasons.
1. Ennis knew that Jack was gonna be mad about it and did'nt want to spoil or end the trip before the week passed prolonging the inevitable..
2. He knew that this would be the last meeting for a long while and simply wanted to savor every moment he had with Jack. Call him selfish maybe, but better to spend a week with a happy unasumming Jack, than a pissed off depressed one. Also Jack may have thought that he had lost a bit of control over the matter, robbed of his right to assert his feelings about it sooner, felt manipulated by Ennis once again.
I agree with this, Ennis waited till the last minute to spring this little tidbit of news on Jack, when he could have done so much sooner. I feel it was done for two reasons.
1. Ennis knew that Jack was gonna be mad about it and did'nt want to spoil or end the trip before the week passed prolonging the inevitable..
2. He knew that this would be the last meeting for a long while and simply wanted to savor every moment he had with Jack. Call him selfish maybe, but better to spend a week with a happy unasumming Jack, than a pissed off depressed one. Also Jack may have thought that he had lost a bit of control over the matter, robbed of his right to assert his feelings about it sooner, felt manipulated by Ennis once again.
But isn't that how Ennis always kept control. There wasn't a moment that Jack had the upper hand, until he utter the words "I wish I could quit you" which laid Ennis down and out. I can't help to think that night before when they by the campfire Jack, unwisely let Ennis know he was at least seeing someone else. Ennis has control issues. I don't think he was all that please that Jack was "sneaking off" to see anyone. That "boys like you" remark was at least letting Jack know Ennis wasn't as dumb as he might have thought. And also the statement "I miss you much I could hardly stand it", Jack was telling Ennis I miss you, but I could go to someone else. And what does Ennis do in his passive aggressive way, pushes the date of the next meeting back further knowing how Jack would react to it. Ennis non committing possessvie love for Jack was for me that short leash that Jack blamed Ennis for.
Just my take
I always felt that Ennis delayed in telling Jack he couldn't come in August because he knew how Jack would react -- with anger. This leads me to believe that Jack had shown his impatience and anger on other occasions with Ennis. There's just so much that went on between the two that we don't know. Ennis was just trying to keep Jack in a good mood as long as he could. Simplistic, I know, but that's how I read it.
jack only got angry when it was justified and his anger was more in realiation i think eenis was more the angry one but neither of them were compleatly anger filled
I agree with this, Ennis waited till the last minute to spring this little tidbit of news on Jack, when he could have done so much sooner. I feel it was done for two reasons.
1. Ennis knew that Jack was gonna be mad about it and did'nt want to spoil or end the trip before the week passed prolonging the inevitable..
2. He knew that this would be the last meeting for a long while and simply wanted to savor every moment he had with Jack. Call him selfish maybe, but better to spend a week with a happy unasumming Jack, than a pissed off depressed one. Also Jack may have thought that he had lost a bit of control over the matter, robbed of his right to assert his feelings about it sooner, felt manipulated by Ennis once again.
But isn't that how Ennis always kept control. There wasn't a moment that Jack had the upper hand, until he utter the words "I wish I could quit you" which laid Ennis down and out. I can't help to think that night before when they by the campfire Jack, unwisely let Ennis know he was at least seeing someone else. Ennis has control issues. I don't think he was all that please that Jack was "sneaking off" to see anyone. That "boys like you" remark was at least letting Jack know Ennis wasn't as dumb as he might have thought. And also the statement "I miss you much I could hardly stand it", Jack was telling Ennis I miss you, but I could go to someone else. And what does Ennis do in his passive aggressive way, pushes the date of the next meeting back further knowing how Jack would react to it. Ennis non committing possessvie love for Jack was for me that short leash that Jack blamed Ennis for.
Just my take
I do concede that perhaps without meaning to, this was how Ennis kept Jack in abeyance -- as in that awkward moment in the post divorce scene, when the presence of Ennis's daughters provided him with an excuse to turn away Jack.
But somehow, I feel that he didn't do these things deliberately or at least knowingly. I am not excusing Ennis. I just see that he was probably blind to the form of control he was exerting on Jack, especially in those critical instances, when whatever Jack did wouldn't seem to matter -- when things would ssem to be a fait accompli.
He does, and I wonder out loud whether a variance in their world views is at the heart of the conflict.
I do think that Ennis's world view was familiar to Jack, and that Jack's own was probably not that different from Ennis. But I think the root of Jack's frustration was that Ennis's uses the constraints inherent in this world view as a method of controlling the course/flow of the relationship, and Jack felt trapped because of it.
I think Jack's struggles to get himself free of this world is implicit in his choice to move away from Wyoming, his parents, and Ennis, although he was careful to move to a place that didn't exactly differ that much from where he came from. But my point is that he could look at things from the outside, even though he was a relative insider and knew the lay of the land well enough. The inconvenience of going to and fro was probably part symbolic of his trying to draw Ennis out by seemingly trying to look as if he were from without himself. I hope you get what I mean here...
I don't know if you mean, "hey look the water is fine". Ennis never left the safety of the shore line, and Jack wanted to take his hand to test the waters.
It was just that frustration Jack must of felt with Ennis, and that frustration that sent him to Mexico. It wasn't so much that Jack was hot to trot, his loneliness for Ennis was so overwhelming, and he told Ennis it was hard for him.
Jack gets a bum rap as far as Mexico. It was the self imposed semi celibacy, (if there is such a thing), of Ennis, to Jack's being sexually active, which we hold as some kind of chart measuring both men character. We admire Ennis self control to Jack lack of control, but it took a lot out of both men. It was just that which exploded at the final confrontation.
I'm I close?
do you think we are maybe reading to much into this whole jack getting mad thing, i mean every couple argues once in a while its no big deal they shout and try and belittle each other but in the end they are still in love and this is what matters. the sad thing about this argument for me was that it was the last time they spoke before jacks death. this for me is the real heart ache of the scene if they had met up in november and had a nice time i would have fealt a great deal better.
tpe makes a solid point. Jack death yes a tragedy, but at the final confrontation, the things that were felt unknowingly of both Jack and Ennis were brought out was at its heart reason for that one moment of truth.
These men were friends, and lovers for twenty years, their relationship was more important than any things in their life. But Jack's frustration with Ennis, and Ennis's suspicion of Jack's fidelity weighted down by fear society, broke wide open that day. It was just a matter of time the truth about how each man were living their lives had to brought out. For them it took twenty years, but compare that to the so little time they did have with each other. I think it's the testament to that love, that both men weren't afraid to be vulnerable to each other, and let it all out. Which showed how much both Jack and Ennis invested in their love, and what it took for each to hold on to it.
Just my take.
***
Ennis gave him no choice but to say what was in his heart. But in this case feelings overide words, Jack may have went down fighting, but his love for Ennis, and Ennis's love for him remained strong as ever. Niether one could ever deny it. .The passion displayed in that scene spoke to the depth of their love and how much it meant to each other. Had Jack not died, the situation would have been ripe with possibilities, good or bad. Everything was now out in the open. Either way, a resolution to the unacceptable status quo could have been forthcoming. MO.
And the "wonderful" thing about this is that Jack also didn't give Ennis a choice in the last confrontation -- it was a confrontation because Jack was unwilling to back down. Ennis had to hear him out, if only to make him realize what was really in his (Jack's) heart.
And yes, even this -- no matter how much it pained them for so little a change.-- was better than the status quo.
And the "wonderful" thing about this is that Jack also didn't give Ennis a choice in the last confrontation -- it was a confrontation because Jack was unwilling to back down. Ennis had to hear him out, if only to make him realize what was really in his (Jack's) heart.
And yes, even this -- no matter how much it pained them for so little a change.-- was better than the status quo.
Niether one was backing down in this until Jack delivers the *knock out punch* saying '" I wish I knew how to quit you". This scared Ennis I believe, Jack was looking to end it or wished he could. Ennis could not deal with this. , but really, what did he mean by "it's cause a you, I'm like this, nothin, nowhere?
That for me is the mystery question. What did Ennis mean when he said this. It was as if he stayed in '63 not moving, but living in that moment of "63 as the years past, but Jack evolving before his eyes changing to this man who is finally confronting him. There's a sense of betrayal in Ennis's accusation, "It's because of you Jack, I'm like this." Not because he loved another man, but because Jack knew full well, why he was the way he was, tire irons, irrigation ditches, and all of what it meant, death. He loved Jack so much, so deeply, that he fear of losing him was greater than Jack's fear of not having a sweet life. And those tire irons haunted Ennis even after Jack's death.
Does this make sense?
well said tpe :).
ive got to say after whatching this argument again i think this argument is as ive said before justified on jacks half but what hurts me is jack saying the whole "i wish i could quit you" thing it makes me feel then when ennis breaks down in jakes arm i feel it such a revalation that he is actually showing his emotions. i feel traumatised by the argument and the things said on both sides but then once they embrace it gives me a kind off warm feeling inside but it still upsets me that it was the last time they met before jacks death and they argued :\'(.
Niether one was backing down in this until Jack delivers the *knock out punch* saying '" I wish I knew how to quit you". This scared Ennis I believe, Jack was looking to end it or wished he could. Ennis could not deal with this. , but really, what did he mean by "it's cause a you, I'm like this, nothin, nowhere?
That for me is the mystery question. What did Ennis mean when he said this. It was as if he stayed in '63 not moving, but living in that moment of "63 as the years past, but Jack evolving before his eyes changing to this man who is finally confronting him. There's a sense of betrayal in Ennis's accusation, "It's because of you Jack, I'm like this." Not because he loved another man, but because Jack knew full well, why he was the way he was, tire irons, irrigation ditches, and all of what it meant, death. He loved Jack so much, so deeply, that he fear of losing him was greater than Jack's fear of not having a sweet life. And those tire irons haunted Ennis even after Jack's death.
Does this make sense?
I think Jack was also surprised by the show of emotion. If jack's losing his temper achieved anything, it was this, although it did come at a price -- no doubt causing Ennis a great deal of pain.
yer, i admire ennis's will power though the way he never slept with any other men like jack did but his will power seems to be realated to his stuborn atitude with out it he may have given into to temptation but with it he found it hard to accept him self for who he really was rather then who he was raised to beleive he was.
one way or another it's clear this argument was an emotional revelation for ennis and jack and even if the things uncovered wernt necciseraly good they were important for each other to know.
I think Ennis's conflicted nature was enough to keep him away from other affairs even if he desired them -- this was at the root of Jack's anger: that Ennis simply didn't want to let go and follow his dreams and desires.
In a way, Ennis was blaming Jack for revealing to him who he really was, no? It is a poigniant counter to jack's anger, and revealed a lot about the nature of Ennis's conflict and strange ambivalence towards his meetings with Jack. It was enough to quiet Jack's anger, it seemed...
Sure it was, and that's how it worked between them, Jack pushes, Ennis gets angry, Jack backs down. It was this way they left the mountain, in '63, Ennis knocks Jack flat on his back, when Ennis makes the wisecrack about him, Lureen and Alma living together in Texas, and the final confrontation., this time Jack was at that point of making a decision, what we don't know, but he was at some kind of crossroad.
Absolutely, I had the feeling that the thanksgiving outburst was his way of dealing with the impossibility of dealing with Ennis... With Newsome, it's more annoyment than attachment, he can have this power of decision, and he's tired of people ruling his life in any ways possible. If at least he can fight back the father in law thing, that makes one thing less to think about, in an already pretty messed up scheme...
Great script intention, IMO :)
Absolutely, I had the feeling that the thanksgiving outburst was his way of dealing with the impossibility of dealing with Ennis... With Newsome, it's more annoyment than attachment, he can have this power of decision, and he's tired of people ruling his life in any ways possible. If at least he can fight back the father in law thing, that makes one thing less to think about, in an already pretty messed up scheme...
Great script intention, IMO :)
I feel that Jack's anger in the Thanksgiving scene is out of frustration over Ld trying to inject what is his idea of what constitutes being " a man" onto his own son. LD has made no secret about how he feels about Jack. To have his masculinity questioned in front of his son was the last straw in this on going war of wills between these two. Again, it a control factor. Constantly living by some one else's rules. His attempt to assert himself as a father are being thawrted at a time when Jack's self-esteem is at an all time low. Freshly rejected by Ennis in the divorce scene again he is backed into a corner. When he is backed into a corner, Jack comes out fighting tooth and nail. Jack may have even shocked himself here, humbling and threatening the arrogant "stud duck", but he was very much justified in his anger. Self preservation and pride was sometimes all Jack had left. . When Jack got mad, it worked for him. When he finally puts his foot down, it also humbled Ennis in the last confrontation. Hell hath no fury like a Jack Twist scorned I suppose, these two "tough guys" learned a lesson by pushing their control too far. A fighter he was.
These posts are so interesting. Jack struggle was his identity as a man and not his sexuality, whereas Ennis was his sexuality and his fear, and not his identity as a man. Jack was found himself fighting on two fronts. The first, just demanding respect, as a man and all that comes with it, his home, his work, his family, standing up and taking the carving knives, at his home on Thanksgiving was, for me, Jack's Independence day. Second the fight for the love of a man, who couldn't get pass the fear of that love, and all it means, again Jack stands up. Jack finds finally speaking up and speaking out even at the risk of losing was worth more than just letting it slide hoping that things will get better, it doesn't. Was it worth it? LD sat down at the table, and Ennis fell to his knees.
Jack should have gotten "mad" years ago, but fear silence him.
These posts are so interesting. Jack struggle was his identity as a man and not his sexuality, whereas Ennis was his sexuality and his fear, and not his identity as a man. Jack was found himself fighting on two fronts. The first, just demanding respect, as a man and all that comes with it, his home, his work, his family, standing up and taking the carving knives, at his home on Thanksgiving was, for me, Jack's Independence day. Second the fight for the love of a man, who couldn't get pass the fear of that love, and all it means, again Jack stands up. Jack finds finally speaking up and speaking out even at the risk of losing was worth more than just letting it slide hoping that things will get better, it doesn't. Was it worth it? LD sat down at the table, and Ennis fell to his knees.
Jack should have gotten "mad" years ago, but fear silence him.
It's absolutly true MG, I agree. Jack was fighting for his identity as a man. Who he was, and respect for who he was. In the Thanksgiving scene it was his house, his family, his son, his TV, and his son. At first it was he who started to take control as head of his household and carve the turkey until LD took it upon himself to assert himself, fine, Jack was willing to concede this small act of carving a turkey, no big deal, then things turn ugly when Jack gave an inch and LD decides to to take a mile, pushing Jack to defend who he was as *man of the house* and *king of his castle*. With LD it was this respect he sought.
In the confrontation scene, it's a little more complex ,again Jack fights to be heard and recognized, not so much for being a man, but for equality and respect in his relationship with Ennis. I don't feel that Ennis was questioning Jack's masculinity as much as he was Jack's faithfulness/loyalty, which I feel Ennis equated with a certain weakness in Jack. Jack's inability to * hold out* as he was doing. Never the less, Jack felt threatened over the control over who he was and his right to have human vulnerabilities. Attacking him over this proved futile for Ennis. Jack had many weapons in his arsenal so to speak to fight back with. 20 years worth.With out throwing punches, his words proved more leathal for Ennis going to the heart of Ennis's rationale. Years of pent up frustration spilled out finally putting Ennis in his place and bringing him to his knees in a total break-down/ surrender to Jack like his life depended on it. He felt exposed but I feel he knew Jack was right.
In both cases, Ennis and LD found that if one raises the ire in Jack , he became a force to be reckoned with and was right and justified in his reasoning. I believe that for a long time Jack wanted to see the good in people and had a big heart for the underdog, being one himself, but he was'nt dumb. Things had to make sense for him. When it did'nt, he tried to right the wrong to bring focus. Sometimes it worked , sometimes not. I agree, to a fault he kept silent for too long. When he got mad, things changed. 2 cents
aintfoolin',
The rejection after Ennis divorce harden Jack, but not enough to keep him from embracing Ennis. Jack became fully formed at that moment of mercy for his lover when collapsed in his arms. At that moment they were equals, and totally in love with each other. Ennis held on to Jack, and Jack did the same. Maybe when Jack remembered the dozy embrace, and Ennis uninhibited, and with free will embraced him, did Jack understand that Ennis did love him, but Ennis had to find out in his own way whether or not he was loved in return.
I don't know.
At that moment when they embraced, I get the feeling that it was out of desperation. They both know they had gone too far -- said things that were too hurtful but that they couldn't take back. I feel they had to embrace that way in order to convince one another that there was still something salvageable about their relationship. Had they not embraced, that would have been the end for them; that would have been the same as telling one another that they were writing the other one off for good.
That doesn't mean they didn't love each other anymore, but that that embrace meant more than mutual affection; it was also their salvation.
I respectfully disagree
I respectfully disagree, all that they said was true in their eyes, each made valid points of how they saw their relationship, and how they felt. All the "unsayable" was said at that moment, it was all valid. Jack didn't realize that Ennis was barley holding on and what he sacrificed, the pain of Jack's infidelity, and Ennis didn't understand that Jack's loneliness for him left him searching, resentment of the short leash he felt Ennis had him by, and the knowing that a life together was something Ennis didn't want. All points valid all points true in each man's eyes.
This wasn't a time to say later "oh, I didn't mean it" they did mean it, this was how they felt, and we saw the signs we knew it was coming. Through great pain, there has to be understanding. (hopefully).
my 2cents
I must be missing something. ^*() I don't see where we are disagreeing. Everything you said is true. I agree wholeheartedly. I am just saying that, in spite of what they said and really did feel, they also knew they had to make physical contact at that time or risk unravelling the ties that held them together. The physical contact, the hug, didn't negate the truth of their feelings, in my opinion, but cemented their relationship no matter how much they had hurt one another, or how much they hurt inside. All the talk, shouting, scolding was necessary, but now the antidote, the embrace, had to happen, too. Oh, they meant everything they said, but they also meant the action of grasping one another desperately, hanging on for dear life.
To me , the embrace represented Jack's unwillingness to let Ennis give up on trying to understand what was happening between them. Ennis rejected Jack at first, pushing Jack away,, signaling his frustration and anger at Jack's words and actions, along with the sheer exposure, but Jack grabbed him with determination, as he collapsed signaling a knowledge that he knew Ennis was giving up on himself and the relationship while at the same time, knowing that the depth of need in Ennis was a matter of his survival, literally. Ennis was still fighting, but barely. Jack's quiet "damn you Ennis" " it's alright "speaks to this imo. Excellent acting on both parts. My take.
Me too MG, I see them staying in this embrace for some time. I also agree that Jack never feared Ennis. cuz he knew with Ennis there was always the underlying fact that Ennis loved and needed him, regardless of what Ennis did or said and would never purposely harm him , In this way, he knew Ennis well. Jack knows and sees the pattern, ever since Brokeback. After 20 years, Jack ....almost...had Ennis figured pretty good though I feel Ennis sent *mixed signals* at times or changed the rules on em. 2 cents.
jack most certainly never feared ennis im also sure jack never doubted ennis's love for him
I agree. His anger and his possible decision to "move on" in no way changed his love for Ennis. And he feared more the possibility of hurting Ennis, rather than fearing Ennis. His anger is a reflection of his frustration.
I agree,too.He feared more hurting Ennis than feared him if ,as it seems,he had arrived to a point of no-return in their relationship.But I wonder if he hadn't been fearing also the possibility of keep on being hurt and deceived in his deepest wishes for more time...
I agree,too.He feared more hurting Ennis than feared him if ,as it seems,he had arrived to a point of no-return in their relationship.But I wonder if he hadn't been fearing also the possibility of keep on being hurt and deceived in his deepest wishes for more time...
What still baffles me is that Jack did'nt just take the money LD was offering and try and build a life for himself outside of Childress. Why continue to wallow in the frustration? Sure he wanted Ennis to be there, but surely he saw that was not happening anytime soon. Why stay in a marriage he was not happy in? Not bashing him, but but what I see is Jack wrapping all his hopes and dreams up in a life with Ennis, wishing, hopeing and praying that one day , Ennis will commit. Kept all his eggs in one loving basket held by Ennis. I suppose low self-esteem and depression had alot to do with it, but maybe had Ennis seen that Jack was'nt gonna sit around pining for him and waiting for him to come to his senses, this would've moved Ennis in some way. Let's face it , Ennis was'nt about to let Jack go again, not completely. Jack held some aces up his own sleeve. To bad he did'nt play them. meeting out in the middle of nowhere was one thing with sad negative connatations attached, meeting at Jack's spread was a better idea imo, at least it would have been a start, a new approach to permanently snagging Ennis.. maybe..just a thought.i think the reason jack didnt get out of his marrge with lureen regardless of ennis being their was because well... he had his son and i dont think he would leave bobby unsupported unless it was for something as big as too be with ennis. IMO anyway
What still baffles me is that Jack did'nt just take the money LD was offering and try and build a life for himself outside of Childress. Why continue to wallow in the frustration? Sure he wanted Ennis to be there, but surely he saw that was not happening anytime soon. Why stay in a marriage he was not happy in? Not bashing him, but but what I see is Jack wrapping all his hopes and dreams up in a life with Ennis, wishing, hopeing and praying that one day , Ennis will commit. Kept all his eggs in one loving basket held by Ennis. I suppose low self-esteem and depression had alot to do with it, but maybe had Ennis seen that Jack was'nt gonna sit around pining for him and waiting for him to come to his senses, this would've moved Ennis in some way. Let's face it , Ennis was'nt about to let Jack go again, not completely. Jack held some aces up his own sleeve. To bad he did'nt play them. meeting out in the middle of nowhere was one thing with sad negative connatations attached, meeting at Jack's spread was a better idea imo, at least it would have been a start, a new approach to permanently snagging Ennis.. maybe..just a thought.
I suspect it's because he felt that Ennis wouldn't approve of it. And I do think Lureen became a convenient smokescreen, no? It certainly worked better for him than between Alma and Ennis. She really didn't seem to care later on, and that suited Jack and made it very convenient for him. What do you think?
I suspect it's because he felt that Ennis wouldn't approve of it. And I do think Lureen became a convenient smokescreen, no? It certainly worked better for him than between Alma and Ennis. She really didn't seem to care later on, and that suited Jack and made it very convenient for him. What do you think?
I suspect it's because he felt that Ennis wouldn't approve of it. And I do think Lureen became a convenient smokescreen, no? It certainly worked better for him than between Alma and Ennis. She really didn't seem to care later on, and that suited Jack and made it very convenient for him. What do you think?
But Lureen was not privy to what Alma was.
We are not sure if she even suspected. It's his life, Ennis approving of it shoud'nt matter after some point. Jack would get mad and live a life of constant frustration , but continue on the same path. He wanted a little cow-calf operation and wanted Ennis to share , but that was'nt happening. I just feel he had options other than the approach he took. But why stay in the marriage? when he had the chance to break free? To trade convenience for happiness does'nt make sense to me.
I agree with the smowkescreen but what's about Billy? There a short scene in the movie about Jack asking Lureen to call the school about their son, it's more clear in the book that Jack is concerned about his son... at that time divorce mean in most cases kids stay with mothers. He might have say also he didn't want kids (in the SS) but I'm quite sure he loved Bobby and cared for him (still from the SS, his concerns about Bobby's dislexia). He probably wnated to stay around Bobby because of LD's influence too.
Exactly, which was certainly most convenient foer him, no? The fact that they had ceased togenuinely love each other after a while made it a pure marriage of convenience. Jack could do whatever he wanted and still had the family business to support him. Lureen had a good salesman and a token husband to take her to socials, etc. Is this too cynical?
It looked to me that she never suspected -- she was too engrossed in the business to really care, I think. Hence, her surprise in the phone conversation with Ennis.
Jack getting mad during the final confrontation shows his frustration primarily with Ennis, I believe. At that point, he had really ceased to care about Lureen. As was hinted at by Jack's father when Ennis visited LF, he was all to ready to divorce Lureen at any time. But so long as Ennis refused, he saw no reason to change because the root of his frustration lay with Ennis and not with Lureen.
Yes,I also think that the root of all Jack's frustration and former anger's burst was his not always easy relationship with Ennis.His marriage was the already said "smokescreen" altogether with a social respectability in all the senses; for me,that gives a reason to Jack's life,at least in what material aspects regards specially.However,in what concerns to Bobby,I tend to agree with Cham in that,meanwhile he couldn´t obtain anything better from life,one of the good things of his patience could be avoiding, as it was possible, an excessive influence over the boy on LD's part.Jack had to win some points in his husband's role and,when this wasn't possible before Lureen's eyes,all what remained to him was to have authority as a father before Bobby's eyes.It's to say,not losing everything...Because the greatest Jack's struggle-letting aside the "sweet life together"-had always been gaining other people's trust in his possibilities: with his father,his father-in-law,his wife,his son...That's one of the reason why he fell for Ennis; he admired and valued him for what he was,and trusted in him as nobody before and nobody after.
Totally agree, Ali!!! Beautiful post. ^f^
Yes,I also think that the root of all Jack's frustration and former anger's burst was his not always easy relationship with Ennis.His marriage was the already said "smokescreen" altogether with a social respectability in all the senses; for me,that gives a reason to Jack's life,at least in what material aspects regards specially.However,in what concerns to Bobby,I tend to agree with Cham in that,meanwhile he couldn´t obtain anything better from life,one of the good things of his patience could be avoiding, as it was possible, an excessive influence over the boy on LD's part.Jack had to win some points in his husband's role and,when this wasn't possible before Lureen's eyes,all what remained to him was to have authority as a father before Bobby's eyes.It's to say,not losing everything...Because the greatest Jack's struggle-letting aside the "sweet life together"-had always been gaining other people's trust in his possibilities: with his father,his father-in-law,his wife,his son...That's one of the reason why he fell for Ennis; he admired and valued him for what he was,and trusted in him as nobody before and nobody after.
I think the issue with Bobby is slightly more simple than say the case between Ennis and his daughters. Although he colved him, it looked to me that he was willing to give up proximity in order to be with Ennis, because he dreamed of leaving Texas and going back to LF, no?
So, Jack's anger was directed more at his inability to move on from what was clearly a done-deal for him, IMO. He seemed to have looked at things a bit more simplistically: drop everything in order to be with Ennis.
For me his anger was very simple. It was out of frustration...at nearly everything in his life. Nothing in his life had turned out the way he wanted it to (even though he could only say those things Ennis...and only once at that), which ironically is a sentiment that Ennis verbalized. He certainly could never tell his wife how he envisioned his life turning out. He couldn't tell MT or OMT...what he was experiencing was much like all folks in their late 30's-mid40's experience; The feeling of being jipped or cheated out of the life they wanted.
i totally agree. His anger stemmed from frustration of not getting what he wanted out of life. So many ostacles and no real outlet to voice that frustration except with Ennis. Wether it was Agirre's rules, his relationship with his father, to not eating beans it was always Ennis he used for his sounding board.
I do think he loved and cared about his son, but the fact that he was willing to leave them in a moment's notice had Ennis said yes speaks to a distant lonliness at home. Lureen did'nt even attempt to defend him against being called a "pissant" by one of their clients. This was her husband for goodness sake! He was convienient for the business, but beyond that, their partnership left much to be desired.
I would even suggest that some of the anger and frustration he felt was also directed at himself, for not trying harder to make his dream a reality.
He was at the border of no longer giving in -- playing hardball, with Ennis, we might say...
The sad part, and only we know this as readers/viewers, is that there was no amount of trying Jack could have done to change the direction of his relationship with Ennis. It simply was not going to happen, and trust me on this one, we humans don't like to let go of those kinds of dreams easily, if at all. If I were Jack's friend, I would have told him: "Better to love a good memory, than love alone."
I am of the opinion that Jack had no intention of ever seeing Ennis again after their last meeting. This probably would not have actually come to fruition (see my comment above), but I do believe that was fully and righteously his intention.
And yes, I think that Jack had realized that there were things that were beyond the power of changing, and his last look in the final confrontation seems to suggest weariness and resignation -- of some final defeat, I would dare say.
Certainly, I felt that in the end of the Last Confrontation, Jack looked like he was resolved to move on. But I wonder/speculate whether this resolve can actually last, especially if he moved back to LF, and be in closer proximity with Ennis. I think this is exactly how you feel...i dont know maybe its just me but i never seen the final confrontation that way i seen it just them getting things into the open. i think If jack hadnt died and the post card from ennis about november had arived i think jack would have been going to see ennis without hesitation, JMO
And yes, I think that Jack had realized that there were things that were beyond the power of changing, and his last look in the final confrontation seems to suggest weariness and resignation -- of some final defeat, I would dare say.
Scott, I've walked in those shoes too. :ghug:also something that makes me even more think jack wasnt going to move on was when he said "I wish i knew how to quit you" he wished he knew but he didnt something in that suggests to me jack knew he couldnt move on from ennis.
And Thomas, I do agree about the weariness and resignation, and even the final defeat. But, like Matt, and following the original SS, I don't think Jack was ready to move on yet. Wished he was, maybe, but I believe he would have been there in November. What might have happened after that, we'll never know.
Scott, I've walked in those shoes too. :ghug:
And Thomas, I do agree about the weariness and resignation, and even the final defeat. But, like Matt, and following the original SS, I don't think Jack was ready to move on yet. Wished he was, maybe, but I believe he would have been there in November. What might have happened after that, we'll never know.
Oh I fully agree that Jack may have ended up going back to Ennis in November...it took me 6 months to fully break free...I kept going back even when I knew it wasn't good for either one of us. Eventually though, Jack would have stopped I think...probably too late in his life...which is a situation I wished to avoid.
I hate quoting myself...but better than editing...
That is why I think Jack was an angry man...I felt that anger rising up from resentment and hurt, and knew that it had to end for both our sakes.
Thomas, there is a lot in that last look, isn't there?
And Scott, I know what you mean. I just don't think that Jack was at that point in his heart yet. It can take a long time to go from feeling those things to acting on them.
I wonder which would make me sadder - Jack dying without ever fulling resolving his relationship with Ennis or Jack living long enough to lose that love and finally break free of the love that was both sustaining him and killing him slowly. :-\\
me three
but me possibly in my naivity i still think Ennis and jack would have kept meeting forever and nothing could have stopped that but anyway this is probably way OT so ill shut up lol.
athena, if I recall correctly (I'd have to check), the timeline is slightly different in the movie than in the original SS, so it's a little confusing. I finally chose not to get too caught up on the year and to just concentrate on the months, as you asked about.
My sense is that it was late winter/early spring when they had their final trip (because Jack was complaining about the cold), and this was why Jack was upset about losing August - waiting 'til November would mean more months apart. As to when Jack died, that too is somewhat unclear. All we know for sure is that it was sometime between that last meet and November, and long enough past for Ennis's postcard to be returned and Jack's ashes to be distributed between Texas and Lightning Flat.
No, by my calculations, Ennis would have found out about Jack in the fall of the same year they last met. It was the postcard he'd sent to Jack to confirm meeting in November that was returned with the deceased stamp. So presumably it was sometime in October most likely. Because otherwise he would already have been to the meeting spot and known that something was up when Jack didn't show. So my guess is they met perhaps in March, Jack died in late spring or summer (I can't help wondering always if it happened in August, which just makes my heart hurt more :-\\), and Ennis found out about it around October.
The scene with Junior in the movie is not meant, I believe, to be seen as right after the vist to LF, but after some time has passed since he brought the shirts home with him.
I read a post long time ago in some thread I can't remember about this. I think that was Thomas who wrote that, I don't know well.....
But brokies there were saying that 2 full years passed between Ennis finding the shirts and the scene with Alma Jr. The person who wrote it said that because in the OS we can see that, because Diana and Larry wrote a date for every scene, and the Junior scene had a date two years after the visit to LF. They, teh brokies, were saying too that in the SS the Alma scene happened only one year later after LF.
We have to remember that in the SS when Ennis and Jack are in their last meeting Ennis said to Jack that Alma Junior was 17, and in the trailer scene with Ennis, Alma was 19, like Ennis said.
The brokie who wrote the post also explained the original OS time line. The last meeting was in fall, so when Ennis canceled August Jack went ballistic because they had to wait a WHOLE year to meet again!!!! Because of that Jack was so mad and he said that see Ennis was as difficult as see the Pope. Jack died in spring, and Ennis went to LF in earlier fall too, almost one year after their last meeting. This is why some brokies said that between LF and the Alma scene there was only a year: Last meeting Alma 17, Ennis found the shirts Alma 18 and trailer scene Alma 19. But the brokie said that the OS was clear about dates, and Diana and Larry wrote that it was two years and that was so more heartbreaking because two years later Ennis kept crying for Jack and kept maintaining the shirts... :\'( :\'( :\'(
Well, I hope it makes sense. I need someone with the OS here. THOMAS WHERE ARE YOU?
Maybe some moderator could give you the link to the thread Athena. ^f^
Thanks atalley. I do agree that when Ennis broke down, Jack was unable to maintain his angry stance. He was visibly moved. It does tell us that his anger is not a manifestation of a cooling off of his love for Ennis. On the contrary, the anger showed that Jack cared very much about it, and had though (up until Ennis's breakdown) that Ennis really didn't care.
Thanks atalley. I do agree that when Ennis broke down, Jack was unable to maintain his angry stance. He was visibly moved. It does tell us that his anger is not a manifestation of a cooling off of his love for Ennis. On the contrary, the anger showed that Jack cared very much about it, and had though (up until Ennis's breakdown) that Ennis really didn't care.
Thanks atalley. I do agree that when Ennis broke down, Jack was unable to maintain his angry stance. He was visibly moved. It does tell us that his anger is not a manifestation of a cooling off of his love for Ennis. On the contrary, the anger showed that Jack cared very much about it, and had though (up until Ennis's breakdown) that Ennis really didn't care.
When Jack found how deeply his words affected Ennis , he knew Ennis cared and needed him. His tears spoke louder than words, but I also feel Jack was right to say those words. I think Ennis needed to hear them, and Jack needed to say them. They both had a dog in this fight.
I think it was good that he was able to say those words, especially before his end. Even though it was too late to save the dream, he went off knowing that the love was intact on both sides.
It may have been good for Jack to say those words, but it was obvious that he knew the futility involved even as he spoke them. He cared about Ennis' reaction because you don't stop caring or loving just because you don't get what you want. Jack did not want to give up his dreams, he did not want to devalue the love he felt for Ennis by denying that is what it was. That is a very hard road to travel on my friends: To love someone despite the fact that you know in the deepest part of your heart that what you desire most will never be yours. That's unconditional love! Not without expectations...we are all prone to those, but Jack loved Ennis in a way that he could never nor would ever deny. His anger was not at Ennis...it was at the impossibility of what love sometimes is. Yet, Jack loved until he drew his last breath.
He still and always will love Ennis, but he sees that part of that love to live it in spite of dashed hopes. I do believe that when he says these words, he has given up on a life together. Not because he will it, but because he understands that for Ennis, it was not to be.
Beautiful posts, MPJ and Scott.
To answer Tammy's question, I think (first of all) that Jack refrs to all the intervening years when they could have been living together. He does not explicitly say that they can't do it for the future, but the years past are lost years.
But secondly, as Scott has pointed out, the past tense speaks of Jack understanding the futility of it all. He still and always will love Ennis, but he sees that part of that love to live it in spite of dashed hopes. I do believe that when he says these words, he has given up on a life together. Not because he will it, but because he understands that for Ennis, it was not to be.
We've all been in love (I think ;) ), and many of us with people who did not or could not love us back the way we envisioned. Having just gone through this, and been driving down the road crying much like Jack did, there will always be a certain amount of anger...at the person, at the situation, at nearly everything in your life, especially if your entire life was based on lies and deception...and let's face it, both of these men lived lives of lies and deception; to others but more importantly to themselves. Let's not also forget that while that is true for them, we have to take into account the era and area they lived these lives. They had neither the education nor emotional enlightenment that we enjoy today. That fact, for me, makes this an even more tragic story. In the end, both Jack and Ennis, like you and I, have to own the consequence for our actions without regard to circumstances that may have prompted us to make choices that we later regret.
OMG what a way to say it!!! Beautiful indeed!! I have to agree. I've never thought that Jack gave up his dreams. On the contrary, I've always said that Jack was a fighter. And yes, he loved till the end.
But I'm confusing with his words in the confrontation scene. He said "we could a had a good life together", you know, in past tense. He was not saying "we can, we still can", so maybe he really understood that there was not going to be any opportunity to live together? Not there, not ever? I'm not saying he was going to quit Ennis, I don't believe in that. But maybe he really knew that his dream with Ennis was not possible at that point, 39 years old, so f***ing tired of fighting. I think he never gave up his dreams about a better life, but maybe he lost all his hopes with Ennis. I don't know. I'm confused here. I said one that Jack's dream was not a sweet life with Ennis, but his dream was Ennis. I mean, he wanted to live in a ranch with Ennis; without Ennis living in a ranch and the rest of his dream made no sense to him. If Ennis was not in it, he didn't want that sweet life, because of that he never quit Lureen to start a new life by his own. He only wanted to live with Ennis, the idea of the ranch was only possible if Ennis was there. So if I say that Jack never quit dreaming about that sweet life but he understood that it couldn't be with Ennis.......that made NO sense because I just said that Ennis was Jack's dream!! %&) %&)
Uh, OT, rambling a lot. Do you understand something of what I'm trying to say? I don't know how to say well in English what I have in my mind about this. Sorry. ^f^
In a way, I think of the Final Confrontation as a liberating experience for Jack, even though it is perhaps a liberation that he did not seek. This is the meaning of the final phrase "Let be, let be", IMO. The anger of so many years had now been released, and place of the anger is a sad form of understanding and acceptance.hmm i agree for problems to be solved you first have to talk about them even if it makes people angry.
Lovers naturally understand this. This is the way of compromise, more often than not. As in many lovers quarrels, anger does not (usually) reconcile the opposing forces. But it is through weathering through the storms that makes or beaks a relationship, even if differences and dreams go unresolved forever.
...After the choice, comes the anger, the grieving and eventually the peace.