The sexual roles played by both Ennis and Jack in the different BBM sex scenes (e.g., SNIT) had been discussed in one of the thread, and it is probably appropriate to start a new thread for this topic.
Would you say that Ennis played the passive role in SNIT? Do you think that he always assumed an active one, or was he more versatile.
The same questions can be asked of Jack. For instance, did the SNIT as shown in the film imply that Jack sometimes played the active role when he had sex with Ennis?
Please remember that there are no right or wrong answers to these questions...
I agree. Please leave the topic open for anyone who would like to post on it. If those above choose not to discuss it further, that;s their perogative. No one is forcing anyone to post. I find the topic very inticicing and interesting.The topic includes scenes OTHER roles and sex scenes other than Jack and Ennis here. It would be unfair to leave others out if they wish to participate in the disscussion. Who's arguing? Were merely having a passionate discussion. Thanx tpe, your 8).
Obiviously we are passionate people and that's fine.:s) i think i might agree :) but i do think he was top sometimes :)
I'm intrigued by Jack's role in FNIT. The SS refers to him "riding more than bulls. That could be taken more ways than one. What he had in mind by initiating FNIT is open for speculation, but he was the one who seemed to have prior experiences with some type of sex here. Women? or men.? Both? He was just a little taken aback by Lureen's forwardness in the car, but I think he was bottom here too, though he did like the direction she was going. I feel he suspected strongly/guessed right about Ennis though in FNIT. These two scenarios though different, gives some insight into what Jack felt his role was. He was willing to be both top or bottom, but I feel he preferred the bottom role the most.
I'm intrigued by Jack's role in FNIT. The SS refers to him "riding more than bulls. That could be taken more ways than one. What he had in mind by initiating FNIT is open for speculation, but he was the one who seemed to have prior experiences with some type of sex here.
Just to be a stickler here, but I feel it's important - the "riding more than bulls" phrase by Annie comes in the motel scene in '67, which is of course four years after FNIT of '63. I think the only hint we have that Jack had any more real sexual experience in 1963 than Ennis (who admitted his innocence) was Jack's statement regarding "fellas' like you an' me march off to hell" that prompted Ennis's remark. Jack could have been as virginal as Ennis, just more embarrassed to admit it, huh? He really did seem to "take charge" SNIT though, and he put the moves on Ennis with pretty good authority that looked like he knew what he was doin' - but of course as Annie says - "No instruction manual needed" Ennis did OK FNIT with no "priors". The plot lines between the SS / film script /movie can be very confusing here.
Now, he may have discovered it was a lot of fun (since he kinda' took to it pretty well) and in the four years '63-'67 did do all kinds of bull riding. ;)
Just to be a stickler here, but I feel it's important - the "riding more than bulls" phrase by Annie comes in the motel scene in '67, which is of course four years after FNIT of '63. I think the only hint we have that Jack had any more real sexual experience in 1963 than Ennis (who admitted his innocence) was Jack's statement regarding "fellas' like you an' me march off to hell" that prompted Ennis's remark. Jack could have been as virginal as Ennis, just more embarrassed to admit it, huh? He really did seem to "take charge" SNIT though, and he put the moves on Ennis with pretty good authority that looked like he knew what he was doin' - but of course as Annie says - "No instruction manual needed" Ennis did OK FNIT with no "priors". The plot lines between the SS / film script /movie can be very confusing here.
Now, Jack may have discovered it was a lot of fun (since he kinda' took to it pretty well) and in the four years '63-'67 did do all kinds of bull riding.
;)
You have a real good point there. I've always wondered if Jack was a virgin too. We know Ennis was, but people assume Jack wasn't simply because he seemed to know what he was doing. He really could have been a virgin, and perhaps him appearing to have some experience and initiating things with Ennis may only be because Jack was simply the one with the outgoing personality.
You have a real good point there. I've always wondered if Jack was a virgin too. We know Ennis was, but people assume Jack wasn't simply because he seemed to know what he was doing. He really could have been a virgin, and perhaps him appearing to have some experience and initiating things with Ennis may only be because Jack was simply the one with the outgoing personality.
(Ennis . . . You could lead him to water, but you can't make him drink).
I tend to think that Jack had some previous sexual experience,and this is not marked exactly for the actions he took,but for the way he did them.His sexual initiative marked a security that -almost- only can be guided for the experience,for little that this can be;bearing in mind that it would be very difficult for a virgin boy in that age and environmental circumstances to act without this security behind with another boy.It's a feeling I have,not only because He's the most outgoing and,somehow,bold of them,easier to reveal even his most intim reactions...I'd also like to speak about this phrase that has been remarked some times in this thread:-"Fellas like you and me march off to Hell"; it maybe can be OT,but it doesn't seem so to me.I've always wondered what Jack meant with this:if he was only referring to "boys of our social class",or it's implicit some kind of allusion to his supposed sexual life-as you say,AF,He's surprised for Ennis virginity,but also reveals IMO,some hidden pleasure before the possibility of being his first lover-.Or maybe is a kind of checking Ennis out about his possible homosexuality,because the signals each one of them were sending maybe were unseen for Ennis,but not for Jack...In any case,all these behaviours are telling me that he had already had his "first time" and that his role could be interchangeable.
"Fellas like you and me march off to Hell"; it maybe can be OT, but it doesn't seem so to me. I've always wondered what Jack meant with this: if he was only referring to "boys of our social class",or it's implicit some kind of allusion to his supposed sexual life . . .
Maybe when Jack said "Fellas like you and me march off to hell", I always feel he was talking about himself being homosexual, and that he had a strong feeling Ennis was homosexual too, so he said "fellas like you and me".
Speaking as an expert in these matters ( ::) ) . . . I've always figured this meant drinking, swearing, taking the Lords name in vain, etc. etc. Since his mother "believed in the Pentecost" I figured he was instructed to believe that all the things bad boys did was a ticket to hell. Sex may or may not be a part of Jack's experience here at this point, but we know for sure he was good a swearing and drinking. Sex probably too, at least attempted sex and the desire for sex, which to many is also a ticket to the same warm environment. JMHO.
Sometimes I think that we lose sight of the fact that these two characters were not educated men. Their scope of knowledge probably did not jive with their individual experiences. That being said, I have always held the belief that the character of Jack had previous homosexual encounters.hmmmm maybe :s) quite possibly actually
I would not say his relative aggressiveness in the sex department came from a personality issue, but as has been stated previously, from a certain comfort level due to his previous experience(s). I think that Jack was the (for lack of a better term) "wilier" of the two men, and there is every reason to believe his comment about being sinners was partially designed to prod Ennis into revealing something that he (Jack) may have been suspecting or hoping for. Up to that point in both the film and the written story, Ennis had done nothing to even let Jack know that he may possibly be gay.
Of course we know how Ennis interpreted it when he replied:
"Speak for yourself, you may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity"
So he thought it was sex, no doubt. Hetero or Homo, isn't spelled out.
But he sure had a cute smile when looked at Jack!
O0
I think that discussing their sexual history is quite relevent in shedding light on their individual sexual identities at the time when he story took place. JMO
The "Was Ennis Gay" and the equivalent Jack threads also have extensive discussions revolving around sexual identity, but I think you mean that their sexual history is relevant to whether they were active or passive?
The primary question at hand is whether or not each one took on a rigid sexual role (passive vs. active) or whether they were more versatile. When we discuss their possible sexual histories, perhaps we can make a direct connection to this question?
The "Was Ennis Gay" and the equivalent Jack threads also have extensive discussions revolving around sexual identity, but I think you mean that their sexual history is relevant to whether they were active or passive?i beleive for no particular reason that both ennis and jack both gave and recieved thats just what i think that was just the way i percieved things. we seen in FNIT that jack received but in SNIT who knows jack was on top kissing, did he stay there for the sex?
The primary question at hand is whether or not each one took on a rigid sexual role (passive vs. active) or whether they were more versatile. When we discuss their possible sexual histories, perhaps we can make a direct connection to this question?
I'll wait for additional input/comments.
Yes that is what I meant :)
If we are talking about specific sexual activities, then I don't think there was much flexibility...to put it in delicate terms, I don't think Ennis slept in the bottom bunk...EVER. Yet, I also think that the foreplay they engaged in was very fluid in regards to who was being comforted and who was comforting.
i beleive for no particular reason that both ennis and jack both gave and recieved thats just what i think that was just the way i percieved things. we seen in FNIT that jack received but in SNIT who knows jack was on top kissing, did he stay there for the sex?
and as for the motel scene Ennis looked like he had been the passive partner by the way he was leaning in on jack but again we dont know nothing is certain.
Fair enough. I do feel that there are things in those scenes that could suggest this. :)
Yes I agree with this also, but if I may insert a bit of personal (hopefully not too) information here: When it comes to that one activity, I am undeneiably a giver, and have never been a receiver, yet in the midst of passionate foreplay, you would never know that. I think Ennis may have wanted that, but because of his own internalized homophobia, he would never let that happen. IMHO
I agree that this is a possibility, given Ennis's general perceptions and the possible impact they could have on such choices.
I also don't know enough about why any individual chooses or prefers one role over the other, so I can't speak to that.
As to the various scenes that have been referenced as possible clues in this, I have to agree with Scott that what takes place before or after does not necessarily reflect or reveal who was in which position during.
I hope this made sense.
I really feel it wasn't always one way, it really doesn't make sense to me for them to be always one way. I believe that during the time he was being passionate and intimate with Jack, Ennis wouldn't be thinking of homophobia, because those were the moments he was truly free to be himself, and they both weren't thinking of who was "dominant" or "passive"...they just let things happen. So I believe Jack was on top some of the times, and Ennis was on bottom some of the times, and vice versa...that's the way I see it, and I believe their foreplay was very indicative of that. But I don't want to stress us all out and start another argument, with pages and pages so I've already said we can agree to disagree on this one.i agree with you on both points :) i beleive they were interchanging in their roles in sex and i also agree to agree to disagree :i that was confusing lol.
What about the women in BBM? I mean, Lureen definitely seems to be someone who knows what she wants. Cassie seemed like that too.haha lureen seemed to be in control in the back of that car lol alma was always very passive and cassie looked as if she would have been quite active :P
I just enjoy hearing the various points of view, whether they're likely to change my mind or not. As long as they're expressed with respect to the other members and their own perceptions, I'm happy. :) Sometimes I see things in a new way after these discussions.agreed the sex isnt nearly as important as the love which we know was beautiful <^( lol
For me, with this topic, whatever my speculations or impressions might be, I feel comfortable leaving this as an unknown variable in the story. Just as we only got a glimpse into their SNIT, I will close the tent flap and give them their privacy here as well.
haha lureen seemed to be in control in the back of that car lol alma was always very passive and cassie looked as if she would have been quite active :P
Yeah, Alma's nature strikes me as passive even though she does try to initiate things with Ennis. Alma wasn't the type of person who was really comfortable with sexuality, unlike Lureen and Cassie. Do you think Lureen caught Jack by surprise?
Lureen is a question? No matter how aggressive she was at first, there was a slow erosion of the relationship as the years went on. Jack seem to blame it on her and continuing interest in the business. So what it was that made her find solice in an "adding machine" than her husband?
Alma, Lureen and Cassie, from what I see, couldn't compete with intensity of Jack and Ennis relationship, even though their saw each other only a "once or twice" a year.
Jack and Ennis was so totally unaware how they affected the women in their lives. The indifference Ennis showed Alma, as he rolled off Alma, the distance between Jack and Lureen, and the inability of Cassie even being able to get a clue at what made Ennis tick, she had to ask Alma, Jr.
All these women were caught up in the wake of the love these two men had for each other. The sexual aspect of Jack and Ennis couldn't be touched or matched by any of these women. No matter what went on with Jack and Ennis, the battle within Ennis, Jack simmering impatience, it didn't diminish the need for both had for each other, and I think it was all set aside, when they laid down with each other, and roles could have been interchangeable, or maybe no roles at all. It could have been just that touch, that sound, an intake of breath that could have determine what would go on between them at that moment.
Just my take.
F*ckin' beautiful. ^f^ :cr) :)I'll second that MHG. O0
Lureen is a question? No matter how aggressive she was at first, there was a slow erosion of the relationship as the years went on. Jack seem to blame it on her and continuing interest in the business. So what it was that made her find solice in an "adding machine" than her husband?
Alma, Lureen and Cassie, from what I see, couldn't compete with intensity of Jack and Ennis relationship, even though their saw each other only a "once or twice" a year.
Jack and Ennis was so totally unaware how they affected the women in their lives. The indifference Ennis showed Alma, as he rolled off Alma, the distance between Jack and Lureen, and the inability of Cassie even being able to get a clue at what made Ennis tick, she had to ask Alma, Jr.
All these women were caught up in the wake of the love these two men had for each other. The sexual aspect of Jack and Ennis couldn't be touched or matched by any of these women. No matter what went on with Jack and Ennis, the battle within Ennis, Jack simmering impatience, it didn't diminish the need for both had for each other, and I think it was all set aside, when they laid down with each other, and roles could have been interchangeable, or maybe no roles at all. It could have been just that touch, that sound, an intake of breath that could have determine what would go on between them at that moment.
Just my take.
Yes, that's true. And it wasn't just the sexual aspect of it. It's the whole true, deep, pure love that Jack and Ennis had. No woman (or man) in their lives could ever, ever come even a little bit close to that. It was an epic love. Ennis and Jack could never feel the love they had for each other for anyone else, that's why it was indeed true love. They were truly each other's soulmates.yep they had the truest love ive ever seen or heard off :)
I get the feeling this was'nt Lureen's first rodeo , and Cassie was no wall flower waiting to be plucked. Alma, she's another story, but these women went after who they wanted, which made it even more convenient for the boys. They did'nt have to pursue them traditionally, but their strong-willed personalities may have posed a more dangerous scenario for Ennis and Jack. Except for Alma's case, suspecting is one thing, knowing for sure is another. They only had to tell one person, a friend, a mother etc..., and the story gets bigger on down the line. Though I see both Cassie and Lureen as agressive women, there are still expectations when it came to men sexually. Just imagine if Ennis was married to Cassie instead of Alma during the reunion scene. No doubt, that scene would have gone very differently than it did. It would not be pretty.
I get the feeling this was'nt Lureen's first rodeo , and Cassie was no wall flower waiting to be plucked. Alma, she's another story, but these women went after who they wanted, which made it even more convenient for the boys. They did'nt have to pursue them traditionally, but their strong-willed personalities may have posed a more dangerous scenario for Ennis and Jack. Except for Alma's case, suspecting is one thing, knowing for sure is another. They only had to tell one person, a friend, a mother etc..., and the story gets bigger on down the line. Though I see both Cassie and Lureen as agressive women, there are still expectations when it came to men sexually. Just imagine if Ennis was married to Cassie instead of Alma during the reunion scene. No doubt, that scene would have gone very differently than it did. It would not be pretty.
Speaking about the women in the film...uh..I think is OT, but well, I don't know where to talk about this....(help me, please? ^f^ )
We everybody knows that Jack liked men, but in Texas, during the rodeo where Jack met Lureen, when Lureen winked at Jack after Jack gave her the hat, Jack's face is all gooey, dreamy. He looked at her all shy and happy, and when she was riding away he was looking in her direction, smiling softly and with "that" face, you know. I mean, you can tell he liked Lureen. Please look at that face carefully. I know everybody thinks that Jack only wanted her for her money, but in that scene Jack looks at her sweetly. And later, in the bar, he was looking at her all the time BEFORE the barman said to him that his father had money. Maybe Jack liked women too....I wonder... ??? ???
And I noticed that Jack made the first move with Ennis and Jimbo, the clown, but with Lureen he was all shy. First at the rodeo (he looks so innocent there, almost like a child) and then in the bar, unable to go to where she was, and unable to say a word when she spoke to him finally. So, was Jack more confident with men? ??? ???
I have so many doubts here. ::) ::)
He did seem attractted to Lureen, found her beautiful, but it was she who actively pursued him. Looks to me like she had her heart set on him, alone and appears to turn down other pursuers in the bar. He kept looking, she kept looking, but it was she who made the *mating call* I wonder if she had'nt came over, would he have gone to her? When Jack was left to actively pursue someone, it was a man. I feel men were his preference.
Lureen was a little temptress alright. Texas style! I had the same look Jack had on his face when she whipped off that bra. heellooo . ;)Can't really blame her from the looks of Jack, but Jack had already experienced the love of a life time. He was lookin right, gorgeous, yes, but she did'nt really know him. he married her , but did he really know her? I don't think so. I agree, he was so broke, diectionless and hungry+ Ennis had done it, why not? I think he liked her a whole lot, but love? Nah, not imo.They were so young ,and that breeds foolishness and ignorance as well. The marriage had no solid true basis. Jack was still in love with Ennis, the opposite of Lureen in every way. Lureen felt she could have it all, a gorgeous guy to show off to Texas society, money and a great carreer , the perfect set up right? Wrong.
I feel every experience , including sexual ,he had with her would be compared to the one he cherished. Don't think it came close to what he really wanted. Came back hoping to work with Ennis again the following summer true to his word. Not the actions of someone who's found love, lost love, and moved on. Only four yrs. later he can't stand it any longer and seeks Ennis out again.
4 yrs, A time period that does not really suggest longevity in a marriage of those times, but must've seemed a lifetime to Jack who I feel, always felt he would re-unite again with Ennis ,the only one who completes him in every way. love that scene in the motel room where he claims he did'nt know thet gonna "git into it agin", then has to admit he redlined it all the way...That grin <^( <^( Marriage to the beautiful rodeo champ Lureen, and family life, left much to be desired I feel he eventually came to resent her because she was'nt Ennis.
He did seem attractted to Lureen, found her beautiful, but it was she who actively pursued him. Looks to me like she had her heart set on him, alone and appears to turn down other pursuers in the bar. He kept looking, she kept looking, but it was she who made the *mating call* I wonder if she had'nt came over, would he have gone to her? When Jack was left to actively pursue someone, it was a man. I feel men were his preference.
I agree. Jack's personality was definitely not "Ennis like", but after the "Jimbo" disaster Jack was not taking any chances. Jack lonely, probably missing Ennis, needed to connect with someone anyone. And Lureen set her sights on him, and went in for the kill. And Jack let's face it, broke, hungry and lonely, he was easy pickins. Is this a moral dilemma some might see it that way, but not if you're hungry, how long Jack resisted his need for a man, you're guess is as good as mine.
Lureen was a little temptress alright. Texas style! I had the same look Jack had on his face when she whipped off that bra. heellooo . ;)Can't really blame her from the looks of Jack, but Jack had already experienced the love of a life time. He was lookin right, gorgeous, yes, but she did'nt really know him. he married her , but did he really know her? I don't think so. I agree, he was so broke, diectionless and hungry+ Ennis had done it, why not? I think he liked her a whole lot, but love? Nah, not imo.They were so young ,and that breeds foolishness and ignorance as well. The marriage had no solid true basis. Jack was still in love with Ennis, the opposite of Lureen in every way. Lureen felt she could have it all, a gorgeous guy to show off to Texas society, money and a great carreer , the perfect set up right? Wrong.
I feel every experience , including sexual ,he had with her would be compared to the one he cherished. Don't think it came close to what he really wanted. Came back hoping to work with Ennis again the following summer true to his word. Not the actions of someone who's found love, lost love, and moved on. Only four yrs. later he can't stand it any longer and seeks Ennis out again.
4 yrs, A time period that does not really suggest longevity in a marriage of those times, but must've seemed a lifetime to Jack who I feel, always felt he would re-unite again with Ennis ,the only one who completes him in every way. love that scene in the motel room where he claims he did'nt know thet gonna "git into it agin", then has to admit he redlined it all the way...That grin <^( <^( Marriage to the beautiful rodeo champ Lureen, and family life, left much to be desired I feel he eventually came to resent her because she was'nt Ennis.
I agree girls. I've always thought that Jack liked Lureen because she was beautiful and kind, and he was so alone, missing Ennis, broke and hungry, after the Jimbo humiliation, far from home, without friends, needing to connect with another human being, needing friendship and companionship, someone to caress him and love him. When you are drowning in the sea you hold whatever you can reach, even if that is a nail burning hot, if you know what a mean. Loneliness and hunger...so much for that Jack 20 years old.
I agree girls. I've always thought that Jack liked Lureen because she was beautiful and kind, and he was so alone, missing Ennis, broke and hungry, after the Jimbo humiliation, far from home, without friends, needing to connect with another human being, needing friendship and companionship, someone to caress him and love him. When you are drowning in the sea you hold whatever you can reach, even if that is a nail burning hot, if you know what a mean. Loneliness and hunger...so much for that Jack 20 years old.
What about the women in BBM? I mean, Lureen definitely seems to be someone who knows what she wants. Cassie seemed like that too.
hmm posibly and it doesnt take much experience to initiate a sex act by putting a hand on you erection lol its not rocket science its quite plausible jack was also a virgin.I've always felt that a 19 year old Jack in 1963 was as virginal as Ennis, but that he recognized his attraction to Ennis and Ennis's attraction to him, shown so wonderfully by Ang in the film.
Lureen is a question? No matter how aggressive she was at first, there was a slow erosion of the relationship as the years went on. Jack seem to blame it on her and continuing interest in the business. So what it was that made her find solice in an "adding machine" than her husband?That's the most beautiful thing I've read in a long long time. Glad I came over today:)
Alma, Lureen and Cassie, from what I see, couldn't compete with intensity of Jack and Ennis relationship, even though their saw each other only a "once or twice" a year.
Jack and Ennis was so totally unaware how they affected the women in their lives. The indifference Ennis showed Alma, as he rolled off Alma, the distance between Jack and Lureen, and the inability of Cassie even being able to get a clue at what made Ennis tick, she had to ask Alma, Jr.
All these women were caught up in the wake of the love these two men had for each other. The sexual aspect of Jack and Ennis couldn't be touched or matched by any of these women. No matter what went on with Jack and Ennis, the battle within Ennis, Jack simmering impatience, it didn't diminish the need for both had for each other, and I think it was all set aside, when they laid down with each other, and roles could have been interchangeable, or maybe no roles at all. It could have been just that touch, that sound, an intake of breath that could have determine what would go on between them at that moment.
Just my take.
I've always felt that a 19 year old Jack in 1963 was as virginal as Ennis, but that he recognized his attraction to Ennis and Ennis's attraction to him, shown so wonderfully by Ang in the film.
I remember being 19 (^) and with the attraction those two boys had for each other, coupled with daily interaction, and living in close quarters, FNIT was inevitable.
It is entirely plausible that Jack was also virgin prior to the summer of 63 -- what we think of as hints of expereince may just be a facade. If this were indeed the case, then it is also probable that sexual roles reamined ambiguous/not set for both of them when they met.
We would need to specify whether we are discussing movie or book Jack. In the book, it was narrative, not dialogue, that hinted at Jack's pre-1963 sexual past. The would give more credence to it being fact not interpretation. The movie (as is the case with so many of these discussions) was far more ambiguous.
Yes, the movie is much more ambiguous -- although I do think there were hints in some of the scenes that would lead us to believe that he did have some prior experience (if we are to believe that Jack was actively finding a way to get both of them to spend the night in the camp at the same time, for example).
Simple but true, but this thought hit me...are we coloring Jack's motivations with our own experiences of subtle sexual manipulation?
Yes, the movie is much more ambiguous -- although I do think there were hints in some of the scenes that would lead us to believe that he did have some prior experience (if we are to believe that Jack was actively finding a way to get both of them to spend the night in the camp at the same time, for example).
I don't know well why Jack wanted Ennis to stay in the camp, but he wanted that for sure. First he was bitching about Aguirre and when Ennis told him about change roles he said that the TWO of them should sleep in the camp. Then Ennis said again that he would be happy up with the sheep at night, and Jack gave him a look and said to him that he was not gonna sleep much up there, like trying to persuade him to stay. That very day when Ennis was by his horse getting ready to leave, Jack said AGAIN that he was not gonna sleep much, like saying "stay here".
I see that as Jack wanting Ennis to sleep in the same tend with him, but maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, that doesn't mean that Jack wanted sex or that Jack had experience in sex.
Good points here.
As Tammy said, Jack "designing" it all doesn't necessarily mean that he had sexual experience beforehand, although it does hint at him being more calculating -- something we see a lot with people who are a bit more experienced. As MPJ noted, Jack seemd to be more well versed in the art of seduction. Although I msut agree with MG in that I felt that Ennis did also want to stay the night during the FNIT, even though I would tend to think that Ennis was probably less experienced or inexperienced...
Ennis to me is a classic passive aggressive, (I hope I'm using it correctly). It was too late to go to the sheep, he stays in camp, Jack's offers the tent for the night, he chose to sleep outside, when the fire goes out, instead of relighting it, he makes noises knowing full well Jack wasn't going let him sleep in the cold. Jacks makes his move, Ennis takes over. I may sound cynical, but I'm not, These two were headed for a collision, (using a term that one of our brokies coined in his own tread), that led to what happened that night. JMO.
Mmmmm, I have doubts here. I know that Jack wanted Ennis to sleep in the tend with him (I said that in my previous post) and I also know that Ennis wanted too. But I think what led them to FNIT was all premeditated but what happens that very night in camp not. I mean, of course Jack wanted to have Ennis in the tend, but I think that when he said " you'll freeze your ass off when the fire dies down”, he meant it. That was true, Ennis will die of cold!!! And I think when he said “get in here” he was really concerned about Ennis being so cold. We all saw how worried and concerned was Jack during the bear incident. He loved Ennis and he wanted him to be OK, so I think that, yeah he wanted Ennis to sleep with him, but he really wanted Ennis to be warm and safe too. Jack was so loving and caring, don’t forget it. Of course, then he did the right movements because the situation was perfect, but I think that night he was not calculating. When we saw him in the tend he was not open eyes, thinking, just waiting for Ennis like SNIT. He was half asleep, trying to really sleep, and he seemed some “annoyed” when he couldn’t sleep because of Ennis hammering, or maybe he was annoyed because the stubborn Ennis was cold out there for not wanting to sleep in the tend by his side. I don’t know well, but being caring and open like Jack was and fight for what you want doesn’t mean that you are calculating or you are an experienced seducer. And I’m NOT saying that Jack was virgin, but I think that there are a lot of people out there who has not experience in some things and they go for them not matter what. I see that all time at work: people doing things so confident, to be promoted, when they are scared too and they have no idea of what they are doing. I see that everyday with my friends in love. There are so many young couples where the two of them have no experience and one of them always does the first move and act like he/she knows what to do and how to do it. Seduction? Yeah, but there are 15 years old teens who are good seducers and there are people 40 years old who are not able to do what Jack did. Sometimes when you want something you do anything to get what you want, knowing or not what to do. I call that to be brave. Jack was that all his life.
I agree with all your posts. I’m only trying here to show that maybe Ennis went there not only because he wanted Jack but also because he was cold; and Jack not only called Ennis to had him there with him, but because he didn’t want his friend to freeze his ass. Sometimes the most simply things are the true. I give them and their good faith and friendship some credit. Just MHO. ^f^
Oh,I didn't explain myself well enoughˇ: I also feel that Ennis also wanted to stay with Jack during FNIT.I've never said the contrary,in fact...I only was answering to Tammy's post where she was speaking about how Jack seemed to insist to have Ennis stayed in the camp.But only about Jack's wishes in this sense,what it's obvious,at least for me,that was also shared by Ennis.The only difference was that Jack,always more demonstrative and open,knew better how to get this; letting aside the fact that he surely had some previous experience and more seduction's abilities,consequently.
Ennis to me is a classic passive aggressive, (I hope I'm using it correctly). It was too late to go to the sheep, he stays in camp, Jack's offers the tent for the night, he chose to sleep outside, when the fire goes out, instead of relighting it, he makes noises knowing full well Jack wasn't going let him sleep in the cold. Jacks makes his move, Ennis takes over. I may sound cynical, but I'm not, These two were headed for a collision, (using a term that one of our brokies coined in his own tread), that led to what happened that night. JMO.
I see what your saying, believe me ,and I ,by no means intend to undermine the fact that Jack was a caring, nuturing individual. He proved it many times throughout the film.
It was in the scene where Jack is singing and talking about his mother that Ennis decided he was'nt going back to the sheep. It was still light out. He could've cut short their time and left, he chose to stay. He was with Jack and decided to take a night off and spend it with him. Next time we see him, he's so drunk, he can't stand. It's dark by the time he's crawling around on his hands and knees. Certainly now, not only is it too late, He's in no condition to ride a horse anywhere!. Not saying that Jack was not concerned for Ennis's health, Ennis was shivering cold when the fire died down. but opportunty to be with Ennis at night together did'nt come along often. . I'm sure Ennis was no stranger to sleeping in the cold, but maybe the word *calculating* has some evil , negative overtone. I'm not implying that Jack was doing/did anything wrong. Jack wanted him in the tent with him. to be close. Maybe I should say ,he took advantage of the opportunity givin him.
I feel Ennis was between wanting to be lured in and not wanting to be lured by Jack, but he was'nt gonna crawl in on a suggestion that he would freeze to death. Yes, Jack was concerned, but I think Ennis sensed something more. I feel that his insistence on staying outside the tent, suggests that he was'nt quite ready to trust the situation.. He was drunk and not in control of his faculties. Perhaps he did'nt trust himself at that point, opting for an extra blanket and riding out at first light. What he thought could happen, did happen, something they'd both thought about. They were falling in love. Their different reactions leading up to this were beautiful , natural,, honest, and sincere, and yes... suggestively seductive. Jack wanted to be Ennis's first lover and v/v so I think they both sensed something would happen , both wanted it to happen though they took different approaches getting there. I don't doubt their faith and friendship at all, but I feel on this night, the chance to express his love was there and Jack took it and Ennis eventually followed suit. Speculation but,,,just sayin..Thanx. ^f^
In the reunion scene, for instance, although Jack is the one who takes the initiative of re-establishing contact, it is Ennis who sets the tone of the meeting with that opening kiss...
The sex scenes in the film between Alma and Ennis also gave some insight into what Ennis felt his sexual role meant. First he has a habit of flipping people over to his advantage. He'd flip her over just as he flipped Jack in FNIT taking the more dominant position without consent. . Then in the second scene , to her reference to birth control, or lack of it, Ennis gives the impression that sex with her was only for pro-creation purposes. I may be reaching but well...are'nt their other ways to prevent pregnacy other than abstaining completely? Certainly it speaks to Alma's frustration concerning Ennis's lack of job prospects to support more children but she had to guess what was really going on here. It was Alma's call but Ennis seemed content to be celibate except when it came to Jack. I think he'd found his preference with Jack cuz he shared so much more with him. Therfore, more fulfilling.
I agree wholeheartedly with you. Sex with Alma was a duty, Jack pure passion and Love. But did Ennis approach both in the exact same way? With Jack Ennis risk being vulnerable. he could easily flip Jack over, and then totally succumb to Jack. That's the difference. Don't you think Ennis may have needed that, he was like a clenched fist most of his life, hammering at what he calls a life, but with Jack that's all gone for a week, once or twice a year. Why is it so hard to see that Ennis himself can lay down with the one person that meant any thing to him, and totally be taken over and wanted it.
Scott's warning is of course interersting, having read the latest posts by MG and AF.
There is certainly a difference, and I must say that even in the FNIT where we see Jack take on a passive role, you get the sense that he was very much in control of the situation. I guess this does happen in relationships, where the passive partner drives and shapes the desire in the other. The question of sexual role and sexual control can be distinguished from each other in certain instances, IMO.
Hi, I don't know how relevient this is to this thread, but it seems assummed that there was sex involved that second night, to be honest it didn't cross my mind that they would f*** that night! The second night was, for me, about everything but sex.
I felt that the second night was about everything, including sex, IMO. You see in the SNIT Jack taking the role of mentor -- as an active agent, no matter what "position" he ended up in.
MG's comment about FNIT can very much be extrapolated to the SNIT, IMO. Here we distinguish between "apparent" and "intrinsic" roles, if you get what I mean...
SNIT was about everything,including sex,yes;but the difference lies in making love,not just having sex.And IMO,in both nights,Jack is in control of the situation,as a "teacher"-let's say so...-;even in FNIT,when it seems as if Ennis was playing a more dominant role,he really is following the path that Jack has marked previously.This has taken the initiative in something that after Ennis will end in an active,but secondary role.
Just kidding, I think they made love including sex. Take care. ;D
I felt that the second night was about everything, including sex, IMO. You see in the SNIT Jack taking the role of mentor -- as an active agent, no matter what "position" he ended up in.
MG's comment about FNIT can very much be extrapolated to the SNIT, IMO. Here we distinguish between "apparent" and "intrinsic" roles, if you get what I mean...
Reading MPJ, and tpe made me think of final confrontation, and Ennis hesitation in telling Jack his plans to change the date of their next meeting. His caution look, biting his nails. He had control for a short time, but than Jack took away or took it back. He let it be known that he could and did go to someone else, which made Ennis loose that very control he thought he had. Then when Jack wished he could quit Ennis, this was something Ennis couldn't handle and brokedown. When tpe wrote:
I kind of understand what MPJ and tpe were talking about. The illusion of Ennis's control, and the reality of Jack's control.
Am I close?
Certainly Ennis had some control in the relationship as you say, timing the meetings, where, and when etc...but he was walking that fine line between what he needed in his life and what Jack COULD withold if he so desired. He was obviously living on the faith of Jack's love for him especially after the scene by the steam where Ennis admits "there's no reins on this one". Jack accepted the conditions at first, but grew increasingly tired of the pretense, but for Ennis, without Jack he could'nt be who he needed to be. could'nt be who he really was ,which had nothing to do with roles or rules in those moments in his life..
If Jack was to become so frustrated and not show up, where would that leave Ennis? It would'nt matter to Ennis who laid down the law. he would have been stripped of all control and power. He'd only know one thing, Jack was missing from his life because of whatever control he weilded. He was the one rejecting and hiding. Jack obviously was always more accepting of his sexuality. From all appearences together, to Jack ,Ennis should be able to show his love the same way naturally, but Ennis had a few problems with his orientations. He'd be forced to make a choice. Jack's way or no way. What would he choose to do? If Jack was to cut the short leash and take full advantage of the control ( really, the sheer power of unconditional love) he had over Ennis, to be with him the way he wanted him to be, or without him period, he would be putting Ennis's love for him to the test. Jack had his own fears too.
Could Jack or Ennis ever love this way again?, find their roles with someone else, knowing one or the other was still out there somewhere? Could either quit completly? From what I see in the film , no. It took death to keep these two apart, and even then their love was reborn thru the shirts. Jack again, preserving their love.
What ever understanding or mis-understandings they had. about each other , in the end , the depth of their love remained untouched . Just some ramblings...
...
Deep down inside though eventually I feel Jack did know what the problem was, the source of his frustration was knowing Ennis loved him as much as he loved Ennis, but could'nt get Ennis to the point where he could love him without fear or conditions. There was only so much he could do, this part Ennis had to fix himself. Could'nt force Ennis to feel something he could'nt feel, but it was was a fear Jack had that if he abandoned Ennis to work it out on his own, he'd loose him forever.
Had jack gotten over his own fear, back off and let Ennis come to him in complete surrender, things may have turned out differently. Imo Ennis was'nt going anywhere , anyplace that did'nt involve Jack but Jack , though in his frustration thinking about quitting Ennis, he felt he could'nt afford to take that chance. Maybe I'm wrong but. things were as they were,... He needed him just that much. MO.Thanx
Thanks AF, Tammy, and OT.
I do agree that Jack probably understood how much Ennis loved him, in his own tortured way. Jack's dilemma was certainly maintaining confidence and trust that this love could be actively used to make Ennis see things in a different way. Although seemingly active in many ways, it was in this crucial point that Jack played it too passively. We are thus faced by passive resistance and equally passive determination. It is in this way that I understand them to be prisoners of that love: a confusion/mismatch in their roles that brought them to a stalemate.
Well it's so easy for us to think that Jack had any control in this relationship, but believe me, I've been there. Imo, he never thought he had any control. He was just hanging onto Ennis with all his might. He pushed here and there, and backed off when he feared Ennis would get skittish and bolt.
I think tpe's question about him lasting the 8 seconds is perfect, because my answer would be yes. He lasted the full 8 seconds because he rode it as long as he was alive. And just like with a bull, you know that you can never actually control the animal - you just hope that you can hold on and not get thrown.
Fantastic all these last postsˇ :clap: I really believe Jack was in control of the relationship in a more physical way-doubtless for me...-; but in an emotional,psychological and/or sentimental side,he took the control that Ennis and his reactions "allowed" him to have.And,on the other hand,for me is also clear that Jack-as Aintfoolin says-held the key of the relationship and his continuity; if it lasted so many years,it's because Jack knew more or less well how to cope with the situation,forcing Ennis to a point and relaxing "the leash" when his lover could feel himself too anguished and overwhelmed.Sometimes to be able to get something more from him,sometimes for not scaring him...In this sense,as in so many others,they were complementaries,although never completely.
I love this line. Its so true.
Well it's so easy for us to think that Jack had any control in this relationship, but believe me, I've been there. Imo, he never thought he had any control. He was just hanging onto Ennis with all his might. He pushed here and there, and backed off when he feared Ennis would get skittish and bolt.
I think tpe's question about him lasting the 8 seconds is perfect, because my answer would be yes. He lasted the full 8 seconds because he rode it as long as he was alive. And just like with a bull, you know that you can never actually control the animal - you just hope that you can hold on and not get thrown.
Fantastic all these last postsˇ :clap: I really believe Jack was in control of the relationship in a more physical way-doubtless for me...-; but in an emotional,psychological and/or sentimental side,he took the control that Ennis and his reactions "allowed" him to have.And,on the other hand,for me is also clear that Jack-as Aintfoolin says-held the key of the relationship and his continuity; if it lasted so many years,it's because Jack knew more or less well how to cope with the situation,forcing Ennis to a point and relaxing "the leash" when his lover could feel himself too anguished and overwhelmed.Sometimes to be able to get something more from him,sometimes for not scaring him...In this sense,as in so many others,they were complementaries,although never completely.
Thanks AF. I really think your calling to mind Proulx's symbolism behind the Jack Twist name is so apt in this discussion of roles. In many ways, Jack was really the "rider" here -- the rider in the relationship. In many ways, he certainly was in control, but he allowed passivity to get the better of him and lose this advantage.
Did he last the 8 seconds, symbolically speaking?
%) too.
You know, I think both these men have so much more going on with them than casual viewers tend to see. I think if you watch the film with not just an open mind, but an open heart, you have the chance to see so much more in them.
I agree, but did he last the whole 8 seconds? I'd say he did.
His times with Ennis can only be measured in moments. He hung onto the bull as Flower Child said and rode it out for 20 years. Once or twice a year was all he could get. He took it. Was a tough ride , at times hanging on some times on a wing and a prayer. .. It was the love he had for Ennis that sustained him
Ennis is totally complicated, has his own way of figuring things. All his life Jack had known rejection, and even humiliation., now he's got bigger problems. He finds love, but the man he loves, finds a rejection and a humiliaton for who he is. The very part of his lover he so desperatly needs.
Jack was a winner. having his love for Ennis tested and was definitly not found lacking. It was proven tried and true. When everything else in his life seemed out of control, it was the love and need for Ennis, It was the one sure thing he knew he had . It gave him hope against all hope to keep trying. Ennis had no need to test Jack's love or control for/over him. Ennis's love and need for Jack WAS Jack's control. 8 seconds, such a short period of time to stay on a raging bull, but it can seem like eons. I think he won the the ride, but after 20 years still could'nt claim the prize.Thanx.
Well it's so easy for us to think that Jack had any control in this relationship, but believe me, I've been there. Imo, he never thought he had any control. He was just hanging onto Ennis with all his might. He pushed here and there, and backed off when he feared Ennis would get skittish and bolt.Just want to thrown in my two cents, and it may have been discussed elsewhere.
I think tpe's question about him lasting the 8 seconds is perfect, because my answer would be yes. He lasted the full 8 seconds because he rode it as long as he was alive. And just like with a bull, you know that you can never actually control the animal - you just hope that you can hold on and not get thrown.
I agree fully that it probably never crossed his mind that he was ever in control. He could have been in control, but it never really crossed his mind to be in such a position, IMO.
"For how long?"
"For as long as we can ride it... There are no reins on this one..."
He really took this to heart.
amazing post justin :), i loved some of your metaphors like the oasis and abthing that was such a great post :)
I agree, but did he last the whole 8 seconds? I'd say he did.
His times with Ennis can only be measured in moments. He hung onto the bull as Flower Child said and rode it out for 20 years. Once or twice a year was all he could get. He took it. Was a tough ride , at times hanging on some times on a wing and a prayer. .. It was the love he had for Ennis that sustained him
Ennis is totally complicated, has his own way of figuring things. All his life Jack had known rejection, and even humiliation., now he's got bigger problems. He finds love, but the man he loves, finds a rejection and a humiliaton for who he is. The very part of his lover he so desperatly needs.
Jack was a winner. having his love for Ennis tested and was definitly not found lacking. It was proven tried and true. When everything else in his life seemed out of control, it was the love and need for Ennis, It was the one sure thing he knew he had . It gave him hope against all hope to keep trying. Ennis had no need to test Jack's love or control for/over him. Ennis's love and need for Jack WAS Jack's control. 8 seconds, such a short period of time to stay on a raging bull, but it can seem like eons. I think he won the the ride, but after 20 years still could'nt claim the prize.Thanx.
OMG aintfoolin, that was beautiful, imo heartbreakingly accurate, and absolutely made me cry. :\'( <^(
Thank you for such an insightful description. :^^)
I always loved this.
I still find a link back to when they're sorting sheep and Ennis says to Jack: We gotta stick this one out Jack..
For how long
For as long as we can ride it
Ain't no reins on this one.
When they were sorting all the mixed up sheep after slacking off out there falling in love, metaphorically there were no reins. I think, despite how (un)aware Ennis was of his sexuality or attraction towards Jack, he could have been saying this from the moment they shook hands or sooner. Out on a limb, I also like to consider that Jack, from the moment he met Ennis, understood a possible true love was in this other man, and it would be a journey ahead towards the connection he'd make with Ennis. The verbalization and the signs of this force of nature were just trickling down a little Old Rose stream into an oasis of their love. And anytime spent outside of bathing each other here, was the time to dry and crumble and fall apart; in final confrontation, when Jack 'broke the rules' and wanted to bathe outside of that sparce oasis, Ennis indeed crumbled and fell to the ground and held by Jack, he had to confront the love between them. He had to, for the first time, mesh his fear and his love together and know that one does beat the other; fear is only the absense of love.
Later when this sinks through his stoic shell, he pursues jack via postcards, etc. But of course we know where that went. He with the shirts falls apart inside. Now he understands that what he feels naturally inside is as painful, heartbreakingly beautiful, real and more imporant than the paperbag he had carried along the way to an odd-job up on a mountain. What you feel is who you are and who you are is beautiful. I get that sentiment from him when he's in the trailer, adjacent Alma Jr., looking out the window quietly talking to himself, this self that processes the lost love before it does the immediate and practical.
Oh yes he has changed immensely.
Up on Brokeback, SNIT, I believe any thing ("roles" if we must) was open, very open. When you're bathing your lover, you want to clean them all the f*** over.)
amazing post justin :), i loved some of your metaphors like the oasis and abthing that was such a great post :)
Ennis, as it was stated earlier was pretty complicated guy. Trying to live his life, appearing conventional, loving Jack on the "down low", and thinking this all he could expect. No matter Ennis's "low startle" point, not one time did he ever stop answering Jack's call to him. Alma or Cassie couldn't quiet the need he had that was only Jack's. Ennis actively defends Jack against Alma, the truth known he never stops seeing Jack. He sacrificed that one good paying job, so he could at any moment be with him, and didn't understand why Jack turns on him.
Ennis handles things his own way indeed. The "Earl and Rich" world, society, was what he try to protect both of them from. But Jack himself, his commitment, his love, his body, was one thing that Ennis had a fear and great need for, but doubted that Jack had the same need for him. He could kill Jack if ever found out that Jack would give himself to anyone else, or even think of leaving him. But what could he do really? No matter how hard Jack tried, or could have tried, talk to him, pushed him, stood on his head and whistle "Dixie", that wouldn't have been enough. For Ennis the only way for him to understand that they were OK, was something he had to discover for himself, and understand for himself.
For Ennis it was "Will you leave me too?" so many in his life left him already.
Just a thought.
I think Ennis perhaps never understood whay Jack loved him so. Perhaps his passivity is but a manifestation of a strong insecurity: that he could not believe that Jack's love for him was REAL.
I find it a most wonderful irony that it is a manifestation of a passive, hidden love (i.e., the shirts in jack's closet) that finally gets to Ennis. Passivity can be powerful, especially when it is like grass bending before the strong wind.
It really does, I think. Otherwise, the story would truly be a tragedy in every way. But instead it can give us hope, and I believe it allows Jack to rest happy, knowing that Ennis finally experienced and understood that.
I find it a most wonderful irony that it is a manifestation of a passive, hidden love (i.e., the shirts in jack's closet) that finally gets to Ennis. Passivity can be powerful, especially when it is like grass bending before the strong wind.
I echo FlwrChild's thanks here, AF. Very beautiful. Yes, one can be a winner even as one falls in battle. The fact that Jack's death did bring about a transformation in Ennis made all the difference.
I think Ennis perhaps never understood whay Jack loved him so. Perhaps his passivity is but a manifestation of a strong insecurity: that he could not believe that Jack's love for him was REAL.
It really does, I think. Otherwise, the story would truly be a tragedy in every way. But instead it can give us hope, and I believe it allows Jack to rest happy, knowing that Ennis finally experienced and understood that.
It really does, I think. Otherwise, the story would truly be a tragedy in every way. But instead it can give us hope, and I believe it allows Jack to rest happy, knowing that Ennis finally experienced and understood that.
Not so much why Jack loved him, but that he was loved at all. Was it OK to have feelings of love? The one word that was never uttered. Didn't the shirts prove to Ennis that it was? He was loved.
His question to Alma, Jr. shows us that the word love, the feeling of love, was becoming more of reality to him after Jack's death. I think part of his torture was dealing with that feeling he had for Jack was love, this is man who had a hard time dealing with his sexual need for him, let alone with the idea that all he feels for Jack was in the end, love, and he was loved in return. It all was so risky for him, this man who was controlled, guarded, reserve. This man who loved someone who could make lose all of that control, feared whether he was loved at all.
I sometimes think that in the end, love also became something very unreal with Ennis -- the stuff of dreams, I guess. In this case, the sexual dreams with Jack had become a substitute for the reality. It is as if dreams became a sort of reality for him. Would you agree?
I completely agree with you guys on that. And I do believe that it was the shock of Jack's death that allowed him to see what he'd lost. It was enough to give him the strength to call Lureen, and then to go to Lightning Flat, which took so much courage on his part considering the man he was and the things he'd struggled with for so long.
Then finding the shirts showed him how much Jack loved him, had always loved him, and that what they had was indeed love, no matter what he'd been telling himself all those years.
The Ennis who walks into that kitchen with those shirts, fully intent on taking them with him, and the Ennis who says "Jack, I swear" is not the same Ennis who'd been fighting his own demons, along with society's, all that time. This Ennis knew and acknowledged that what he felt for Jack was love, and had the gift of knowing that Jack loved him, to help temper the loss and the regrets for what might have been.
I've been so moved by your posts. Thank you for sharing. ^f^
I sometimes think that in the end, love also became something very unreal with Ennis -- the stuff of dreams, I guess. In this case, the sexual dreams with Jack had become a substitute for the reality. It is as if dreams became a sort of reality for him. Would you agree?
I sometimes think that in the end, love also became something very unreal with Ennis -- the stuff of dreams, I guess. In this case, the sexual dreams with Jack had become a substitute for the reality. It is as if dreams became a sort of reality for him. Would you agree?
Oh absolutely tpe.
From the short story:
"....He might have to stay with his married daughter until he picks up another job, yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream............lets a panel of the dream slide forward. If he does not force his attention on it, it might stoke the day, rewarm that old, cold time on the mountain when they owned the world and nothing seemed wrong."
Beautiful and touching. I feel like crying.
That's right about Ennis, Thomas. And OT, I especially relate to those words.
Wouldn't you say AP put at the of ss exactly at what all you been saying, the dreams of Jack, the can of beans with spoon handle jutting out of it, that turned into tire irons. His sheet wet, some times his pillow, the feeling of joy, the feeling of grief. And the open space between what he knew, and what he tried to believe.
His love for Jack, his need sexually for Jack, and the ever present fear of tire irons. All will be with him. Do any of think he's even able to find that resolution, do you think he was even meant to find peace?
I feel his dreams of Jack reflected his thoughts. I think it shows he thought of Jack often after his death. I can see him going to sleep hoping to have dreams of him. Maybe he found a profound sad peace within it over time. Also for him a way to keep Jack with him forever. Within his dreams of Jack, he can feel him again, that is the joy for him, but when he awakes it's back to hoping and thinking about him. There had to be so many things in his everyday life that took his mind back to Jack often. Various interactions with friends and loved ones , the mountain setting in the background postcards and everytime he opened that closet. Reminders that Jack had been there. It all helps to shadow the regrets and no doubt , guilt he carried with him. For him, Jack was so close and yet so far everyday of his life. Perhaps whenever he wanted to feel close to Jack, he'd look to the mountain , or the shirts and find peace in them. In his daydreams Jack's love once again lives. Jack's gift to him, the lessons of a love and friendship so strong that even death can't hold it.
Wether he ever found true peace or not, that's what I'd call ,a love everlasting.
Aww, thanx BT and Tony,. Their story is a sad :\'(one that can bring so many tears, but there were also moments of overwelming joy in their story. Moments that also brought tears to my eyes for them. For instance the now infamous reunion scene where hope and joy ruled.
Neither one really knew what to expect. Jack, driving all the way from Texas on a wing and a prayer that Ennis will recieve him as he hoped he would, but never in his wildest dreams did he think his stoic, now married cowboy, would bolt down those stairs, arms open before jack got to them, loose all control, and shed all modesty like he did and lay the greatest kiss in all of moviedom (t) :d)on him ,practically in the middle of the street of all places! This was unbeleivible. Jack had to be swept off his feet , caught totally off-guard by Ennis's show of need for him after 4 long years and boy, did it show! Neither could get close enough , as some have said.The longer Ennis waited in that apartment, the more anxious he became to see em. He had to be telling himself and coming to the full realization that there trully was "no reins on this one" .
This one was real, Ennis sending up a prayer a thanks for his unexpected luck. His "rodeo" had finally returned, giving him that second chance to never again let him go again. A chance to correct his mistake of "63". Though they had to meet in the middle of nowhere, Ennis never did let him go again, until fate intervened, and even then, their love prevailed.
And Jack, oh my, the thoughts that must have went thru his mind as he redlined it to Riverton, peddle to the metal when Ennis answered the postcard "you bet" That said Ennis would see him and he could come but..... What would he find? How would Ennis treat him? Would he find Ennis a settled, happily married man, who wanted to put Brokeback behind him and just remain good friends? Put yourself in Jack's place and I'm sure you gotta smile. Ennis was thinking the army got Jack was was possibly killed in the raging war in Vietnam. But there he was, alive and well with that killer smile on his face, in his arms once again.
It was so sweet to see this and I cried at their newly found happiness of reunion. I feel that every stolen moment they had together from then on was filled with this happiness and no matter what happened later on , nothing could take those moments away from them.Yes, there are many moments of sadness in the film where they paid the price for their love, an emotional rollercoaster, and love definitly hurts sometime, but remember SNIT and other moments when , outstanding gladness filled them too. Jack and Ennis ..forever. Thanx. :ghug:
Tickets to see this film should a came with a box of tissues,what a roller-coaster ride this was. ! So go on and cry, I've never cried at ANY film before, but this one got me.
Now for something very...ahem... delicate?
BBM sex scene we did'nt see is the motel room scene. Obviously the eventually made it to the bed cuz there they were, all snuggled up and Jack talking about 4 yrs. ;) ;) and swearing to god, he did't know they would get back into it again, then having to relent. Can you imagine this session? Talk about no reins. My god, there could'nt have been any rules here. (t) :d) 4 long yrs worth of pent up passion. I imagine the first time was over pretty fast., the second a marathon. (t) When we see them , they're taking a cigararette break. ;) Ennis looks very sleepy and content, now, some say you can tell by the hair who did what to whom, ;D,but I don't think roles were their first priority. %( I imagine they did it all at least one time!. <^( :cr)
The conversation afterwards with Jack asking "Old Brokeback got us good don't it"? and at that moment Ennis strokes Jack's arm as confirmation. This is what I love about Ennis, he complicated and reserved, but can say so much with one little gesture or speak loud and clear without one word uttered ( maybe a grunt)such as this. A tribute to Heath Ledger's excellent craft and range as an actor. He totally immersed himself into this character , Ennis Del Mar. They both , he and Jake put heart and soul into these two characters Jack and Ennis and it is what we , the viewer sees coming thru so well. They made us laugh, cry, angry, and glad. i think Brokeback got us all good. Artistic excellence, personified.
Totally agree!! ^f^i think your right (t)
And for sex scene missing and the passion that sure was there...... >:D >:D >:D let me quote Jack in the SS:
“Christ, it got to be all that time a yours a-horseback makes it so goddam good. (t) (t) (t)
And Ennis was...
Ennis lay spread-eagled, spent and wet, breathing deep, still half tumescent... (t) (t) (t) Jesus, what an image!!! :d) :d)
I think that says everything about how amazing the sex was!!
Oh...MY...GOD... these images, " spread-eagle, wet and STILL half tumescent? , &*&, That's it! now ya gone and done it. I'm turning on the fan (t) (t) (t) And we've all seen Ennis "a-horseback" right?. He rides pretty damn good imo! >:D >:D :cr) :c). They must have been everywhere , the bed, the floor, the chair....god at least they left the lamps upright and the curtains hangin..... and they both appeared to have a little shine to em. This had to be excellent, "gut-wrenching sex. god, now I'm sweating. %) :ghug:
The "Was Ennis Gay" and the equivalent Jack threads also have extensive discussions revolving around sexual identity, but I think you mean that their sexual history is relevant to whether they were active or passive?IMO, i think they where versitile. i mean we know in SNIT ennis was the active role. but the way they were lying in the motel scene it appeared to me jack had been the active partner, also the way the ss describe the motel scene and the way everything is after it seems to me as jack was the active partner.
The primary question at hand is whether or not each one took on a rigid sexual role (passive vs. active) or whether they were more versatile. When we discuss their possible sexual histories, perhaps we can make a direct connection to this question?
I'll wait for additional input/comments.
IMO, i think they where versitile. i mean we know in SNIT ennis was the active role. but the way they were lying in the motel scene it appeared to me jack had been the active partner, also the way the ss describe the motel scene and the way everything is after it seems to me as jack was the active partner.
I see your point.i agree, i think there was likely no place on either body, no sensation that coukd be caused, that ennis and jack wouldnt want to explore IMO they wanted to know each other fully body and soul.
Those non verbal signals were working overtime right from the start of the reunion with the "kiss", Ennis need for Jack, and Jack, surprise, and maybe a bit of anger for Ennis not reaching out for him sooner, left Ennis spread eagle, spent, wet, and with a touch, or move by Jack, could make him start all over again, I could see Jack taking Ennis, and Ennis letting him, Jack would have wanted Ennis in everyway. Don't you?
Oh...MY...GOD... these images, " spread-eagle, wet and STILL half tumescent? , &*&, That's it! now ya gone and done it. I'm turning on the fan (t) (t) (t) And we've all seen Ennis "a-horseback" right?. He rides pretty damn good imo! >:D >:D :cr) :c). They must have been everywhere , the bed, the floor, the chair....god at least they left the lamps upright and the curtains hangin..... and they both appeared to have a little shine to em. This had to be excellent, "gut-wrenching sex. god, now I'm sweating. %) :ghug:
When I was speaking about no fears I meant neither fear of discovering new pleasures and practices,nor fear of anything Jack could do to make him obtain them.Being as Ennis was,surely in another times when routine could weigh more ,his masculinity's image could prevail,but I guess that not in that night...
I find it a most wonderful irony that it is a manifestation of a passive, hidden love (i.e., the shirts in jack's closet) that finally gets to Ennis. Passivity can be powerful, especially when it is like grass bending before the strong wind.
It takes me awhile, tpe speaks of passivity of Ennis, I see it in that SNIT. Sex was going to happen that night, both knew it, but how the sex would occur. Ennis's passivity was indeed powerful that night.good post i think this is very plausible and likely IMO
Jack taking touching his arm, taking the hat from his hands, and gently as he could kisses him, Ennis pulls away a little, then yields. How did this effect Jack, what was it telling Jack? Would Ennis always yield to him? Was Jack the only person Ennis felt he didn't have to take, but could be taken.
How much did this mean to a man like Ennis, to be held, made love to, and yielding to whatever Jack wanted, because in doing that he was loved, being loved, and giving that love in return. There must be a point in men like Ennis where they feel totally vulnerable, and maybe in the arms of the one person who knows what they need, and gives it to them.
JMO.
It takes me awhile, tpe speaks of passivity of Ennis, I see it in that SNIT. Sex was going to happen that night, both knew it, but how the sex would occur. Ennis's passivity was indeed powerful that night.
Jack taking touching his arm, taking the hat from his hands, and gently as he could kisses him, Ennis pulls away a little, then yields. How did this effect Jack, what was it telling Jack? Would Ennis always yield to him? Was Jack the only person Ennis felt he didn't have to take, but could be taken.
How much did this mean to a man like Ennis, to be held, made love to, and yielding to whatever Jack wanted, because in doing that he was loved, being loved, and giving that love in return. There must be a point in men like Ennis where they feel totally vulnerable, and maybe in the arms of the one person who knows what they need, and gives it to them.
JMO.
The way Ennis yields to Jack in the SNIT indeed strikes me as beautiful in that Ennis fully exposes his vulnerability to Jack as in no other time, except perhaps in his collapse close to the end of the last Confrontation. It was a pure act of giving.yes a pure submision off all that he was its beautiful :)
The way Ennis yields to Jack in the SNIT indeed strikes me as beautiful in that Ennis fully exposes his vulnerability to Jack as in no other time, except perhaps in his collapse close to the end of the last Confrontation. It was a pure act of giving.
The way Ennis yields to Jack in the SNIT indeed strikes me as beautiful in that Ennis fully exposes his vulnerability to Jack as in no other time, except perhaps in his collapse close to the end of the last Confrontation. It was a pure act of giving.
I quote this. Beautifully put together.
Though in the movie we tend to see that Ennis is the more dominant, active in masculine way (sorry I don't have the right words), SNIT shows something of his other side. I personally have always wanted to think that their roles weren't so tightly fixed, that there were versatileness. I haven't read much fan fic, but some, and after reading fic that shows Ennis predominantly active I have felt little bit disturbed, cos I felt somewhat other way. OK, it is totally a world of its own. In the original AP's story and movie I have seen/wanted to see more variations. Jack is the more flexible, the one who can take different roles - although I see him more submissive by nature - but I just can't see Ennis only dominant. this is what i think and how i want it to be in my imagination. ;)
But don't you think, that perhaps it was more than just that one night that Ennis yields. I think that's why Jack holds on for so long, that Ennis does yield to him, and more than once. I don't think Jack was a man to be all the time dominated by Ennis, and I think Ennis wants to unclench that fist inside of him, and the only person he could do this was with Jack.
Good point, Carmilla. I do think that roles were not as tightly fixed as we sometimes tend to think, especially with reference to certain scenes. SNIT is of course a wonderful example, as you point out.
I also don't see Ennis as dominant in everything, although I will say that in the end, it is a matter of taste on how we choose to extrapolate their roles beyond the scenes and the story itself.
....
I do think that eventually Ennis and Jack tried every position known to man , partaking freely whenever ,or where ever they could get it. Equal in whatever role or position they chose to take, but ,... all over a period of time within that summer on Brokeback, then long term, thru the yrs., found their preference or niche. God, I wish there was a scene including them making love, when they get older.... Sorry, Rambling on, Just MHO. Thanx.
In a general sense we can speak of one of them as "dominant". Some one on top and some one on the bottom, "submissive". The one on top being thought of as the dominant one.
But really, just because one is *bottom* , does that mean that one was not in a dominant position? Passive-dominance? There are so many variations and positions that warrant the lables "dominate "or "submissive", top or bottom. If it was *oral*, who would be considered dominant? , giver or reciever? Is either partner submissive? I feel both are giving and getting equally, can't have one, without the other...
I really love your whole post, AF, but I'll just quote the last paragraph. In a crescendo, I feel the same here. I like how you've dug into what it is to be dominant/submissive, love the note about Jack not *feeling* submissive -- totally spot on. Ennis bottoming is as hard for me to put a finger on as it is to follow trails back to the root of being 'dominant' or 'submissive'. When the directors/writers of the film left SNIT open for interpretation, they really left us with four walls of open canvas. Thanks again for your post, really gives a lot to think about.
:)
In a general sense we can speak of one of them as "dominant". Some one on top and some one on the bottom, "submissive". The one on top being thought of as the dominant one.
But really, just because one is *bottom* , does that mean that one was not in a dominant position? Passive-dominance? There are so many variations and positions that warrant the lables "dominate "or "submissive", top or bottom. If it was *oral*, who would be considered dominant? , giver or reciever? Is either partner submissive? I feel both are giving and getting equally, can't have one, without the other.
It stuck me that after what had transpired in FNIT, Jack was there, in full view of Ennis, undressing though within the tent, he knew Ennis was still in camp and Ennis watches him do it. Did Ennis see this as an invitation by Jack to join him again? A challenge of his will? While Ennis sat on the log , he kept looking over at Jack taking off his clothes off . What's up with that? Jack just waited and Ennis came in. How much control did Jack have? I'd say alot! seductive? yes but was he concious of what he did to Ennis? Seems to have Ennis pretty much figured out despite the converstion on the hill. Forget what Ennis says he is, the point is ...what's he gonna do...?What does Ennis do? ..exactly what Jack wants him to do. That's Jack's control over Ennis, concious of it or not. Ennis wants and needs Jack.
Imo, it is all in their minds, what role they felt they were taking wether it's Jack or Ennis, though Jack did have much control over Ennis without having to say a word. The terms *dominant* and *submissive* have certain conatations imo, that one had more control over the other in this case ,in a physical sense.. Pychologically it's on a different level. It is more potent, more personally fuffilling. One can say the whole theme in the scene of SNIT was to show Jack's role as the guider, the active one, but that Ennis has certain personality traits that still show him hesitant, unsure of who he his , or why he is doing this, but also willing to explore it further.. Content to have Jack take the lead.
To me, it is a matter of how much control over his body is he willing to give at the point of SNIT. His comfort level. Enough to alow himself to be penetrated? Well, I don't know, This is Ennis, the same Ennis who can't hold Jack face to face because it's another man he held, the same Ennis who swore he was'nt *queer* at first light.. Not to say there was'nt a huge revelation , but Ennis, conflicted within himself wether he can accept this need for another man sexually on a continuous , unconditional basis. What would that say about Ennis and who he was? Looking at it from the physical aspects of what he shared with Jack, he should have been able to admit he, Ennis Del Mar, was in love with a man , but why could'nt he? It's another part of the film that leaves much open to speculation. Could Jack break through these barriers in one night because Ennis entered the tent??
On the other hand, it's watch what Ennis does, rather than what he says, but it's what he feels that matters. Feel that Ennis and Jack are both very attracted to the * masculinity* in each other, making roles indistinguisable. I think he entered SNIT having no idea what would transpire , but felt ready to find out for himself if Jack was the one.To search jack's beautiful eyes for more of discoveries of an emotional ,and mental sense than physically. Did Ennis "bottom" in SNIT?
I really don't know,, I'll concede there is a possility, but I still have doubts.
Based on their personality traits basically ,Jack is more flexible and open to his role or choices ,sexual or otherwise, a part of his basic personality,, more freely accepting of any role he was asked to be in with Ennis, but I feel that at no time did he feel unequal , or submissive during sex. in SNIT, he would taken things slow, but that's just my opinion., more of feeling each other out more establishment of certain "roles*, getting Ennis used to a mutual understanding of what was happening to them mentally, though I feel some kind of sex took place.
I do think that eventually Ennis and Jack tried every position known to man , partaking freely whenever ,or where ever they could get it. Equal in whatever role or position they chose to take, but ,... all over a period of time within that summer on Brokeback, then long term, thru the yrs., found their preference or niche. God, I wish there was a scene including them making love, when they get older.... Sorry, Rambling on, Just MHO. Thanx.
I love all these posts and feel like quoting them all. Don't worry, I won't. But I will make note especially of what tpe said:
"There is a big distinction between dominance in a sexual role/position, and dominance in a relationship."
Absolutely. And the two do not necessarily have to correlate with each other. I have my own opinions about what constitutes dominance in sexual matters, and I've always been struck by how many people instinctively think that a person who 'tops' is necessarily dominant in the sexual relationship, because I've never seen it that way. But regardless of who has dominance there, it does not necessarily mirror who has dominance within the relationship. And of course sometimes (and I think very much in the case of Jack and Ennis) each person in the relationship might have an opinion as to who is dominant and they don't necessarily match up. It can be so ironic to find, after many years, that both felt the other partner had the control all along. This ties into what manhattangirl said as well.
I love all these posts and feel like quoting them all. Don't worry, I won't. But I will make note especially of what tpe said:
"There is a big distinction between dominance in a sexual role/position, and dominance in a relationship."
Absolutely. And the two do not necessarily have to correlate with each other. I have my own opinions about what constitutes dominance in sexual matters, and I've always been struck by how many people instinctively think that a person who 'tops' is necessarily dominant in the sexual relationship, because I've never seen it that way. But regardless of who has dominance there, it does not necessarily mirror who has dominance within the relationship. And of course sometimes (and I think very much in the case of Jack and Ennis) each person in the relationship might have an opinion as to who is dominant and they don't necessarily match up. It can be so ironic to find, after many years, that both felt the other partner had the control all along. This ties into what manhattangirl said as well.
And finally, like tpe, I just love what orangetruck said:
"When the directors/writers of the film left SNIT open for interpretation, they really left us with four walls of open canvas."
Jack felt it all along didn't he? That leash that was around his neck, and Ennis ability with slightest pressure, can bring Jack to him. Wasn't it the thought of Jack being with someone else was something Ennis couldn't handle. How the lines got blurred. When it got right to it, how each man didn't really understand how the other felt, but only saw it thought their eyes.
And finally, like tpe, I just love what orangetruck said:
"When the directors/writers of the film left SNIT open for interpretation, they really left us with four walls of open canvas."
Great post, and I agree with everything you and tpe said too. MG, right on the spot with the the way they saw so much only through their own eyes. Some invisable line there neither will cross, simply to say " I need you. If they say it out loud, some, control is perceived to be lost.
Within the relationship , just on the surface, Ennis appears to have control of things well at hand, appears to have Jack wrapped around his little finger. He is the one instinctively seen as the dominant one , the one who is strongminded and able to stand it. He is the one who lays down the law and holds that leash in firm grasp. Has control, over the pace of the meetings, shoots straight, rides a horse like he was born there, etc, the perfect picture of "masculinity" and "dominance" , he seemingly has ,comfortably within his grip, Jack's destiny.
Jack is to be totally faithful to him in mind and body or else.. The short leash is working....for him... it's tightning around Jack's neck like a noose.. Restrained and hidden away, like being brought like the good china only on special occasions, once or twice a year.
But say for instance, just for instance, JACK , turned the tables on Ennis, started changing the meeting times, started having reasons to lessen the meetings, Jack, the one who is open and accepting of his sexuality,starts to have problems getting time off. Bobby needs him, Jack, who drives hundreds of miles just to see him for a week, suddenly begins to have mechanical problems with his truck. , Jack ,who sees an alternative to what Ennis feels is best for them, who has a dream on hold and long overdue, and is willing to carry it out with the right motivation.. Jack, who has a better idea. Can even admit, he needs company of a man though he "hardly gets it from Ennis. Not that he ever tried it, but He could wreak total havoc on Ennis's psyche.
What Jack can withold from Ennis if he so chooses, cannot be measured by who is dominant and who is'nt, but by who will survive when "percieved "dominance is put to the test.
He only got a little taste of it in the confrontation scene when he thought Jack was quitting him. Ennis was the one who was unable to handle letting go. He only has control...until Jack exerts his. When Jack exerts his control, in any way that spells Jack quitting ,or Jack rejecting him, , like yeah sure, he really looked and acted like he was'nt foollin alright, , getting in Jack's face like a bully, , threatening death on em if he found out anything else., but please really now.....like he's gonna really harm or kill Jack. Probably FELT like it yeah ,but....
Jack had touched a nerve on a couple of his major insecurities that's all, , the saftey factor, and other men. and was'nt apologetic about being left vulnerable to it.. Ennis acted like Jack was unknowingly *off the leash* running wild and unrestrained through the Mexican bowerys, ...Not!..and Ennis is purely jealous. his "percieved" control is threatened and challenged. What good are "masculine" virtues and "dominant" qualities, when within a few moments he is down on his knees holding on to Jack for dear life. What he needs from Jack comes from within, all the way down to his conflicted soul.
Below the surface, he so desperatley needed that little soft face stroke Jack gives him in the "no reins on this one "scene by the river. Certainly, Ennis's story helped Jack to understand Ennis a little more and bought Ennis more time, while he wrestled with ths "thing", but he had to know, sooner or later, Jack was going to exert his control, and require a more definitive answer to "for how long". Jack could have simply said * were not Earl and Rich", challenging Ennis's reasons for not ranching up then , but did he? No , He acccepted for then ,and let it be for Ennis. Jack held his own leash on Ennis's heart but held it loosely , giving him the space he needed, but never let go. He gave Ennis what he wanted but, only that in which Ennis needed to live. his unconditional freindship, and love. He knew when Ennis needed that to be enough...for that moment.. Just another example of Jack's "passive dominance" over Ennis. Thanx.
Ennis had the control in that he was the one that held the reins on the decision of whether to make a life together, but it was really only the illusion of control, because as long as he thought that was a choice he didn't have to make, he could never exercise that control. Jack had control because at any time he could have stopped following the 'rules' of their arrangement and rebeled against it, but again that's only the illusion of control. As much as people frequently wish he would have pushed Ennis harder, he wasn't able to make himself do anything that might result in losing what he had of Ennis.
So in the end, I think the control really belonged to the relationship itself. The force of nature that was their love and need for each other controlled them both from the moment they met until, presumably, the day that Ennis died. Within that context, I think they rotated dominance, much like when they wrestled on the mountain, one on top of the other as they rolled over and over with no control over their fall.
Amazing post Barb!!!! ^f^ You got me stunned here. Yeah, I think you're right here. Ennis had NOT control over that thing; he couldn't stop needing Jack. And Jack had NOT control, unable to quit Ennis in spite of all his pain. So then, LOVE had really control there. There was nothing they could do there. They were puppets in the hands of love.
I really do think, in terms of dominance or control over the relationship, the irony here is that neither of them ever truly had it, because for them love really was a force of nature.
So then, LOVE had really control there. There was nothing they could do there. They were puppets in the hands of love.
There was something that was above them always:the love they felt for each other.
Exactly! Now I'm in a puddle of tears.
Amazing post Barb!!!! ^f^ You got me stunned here. Yeah, I think you're right here. Ennis had NOT control over that thing; he couldn't stop needing Jack. And Jack had NOT control, unable to quit Ennis in spite of all his pain. So then, LOVE had really control there. There was nothing they could do there. They were puppets in the hands of love.
I don't know if you agree with me that leash was the love they had for each other, and what bound them. And don't get me wrong I don't mean this in a bad way, but just the way it was. It's like couples we know in our lives, and we wonder "How in the world they stay together?", but they do, and couldn't really function without each other.
We hear about Jack talking about the short leash. I think it was after Ennis broke down that he understood that Ennis was also tethered. They were each other's pivot point, and they barely knew it.i agree
Absolutely, that leash was their love and it was what bound them. I don't take it as a negative statement, just how it was. That same leash kept them constricted at times but also connected to each other, so it could never truly be seen as a negative. Without it, they wouldn't have been anchored. Just like an actual dog on a leash, he may pull against the restraint but it is there after all to protect him and keep him close to his owner. Their love (that leash) both protected and pulled at them, restrained them and freed them.
Sigh, sometimes love just isn't easy, is it?
Flowerchild comes closest to how I understood it. In my mind, each man had control but in different ways. I think that Ennis had the emotional control, Jack had the sexual control. You may know or not know what control you have over lover. If you do they may say, "she know how to get to me". And Jack and Ennis knew exactly how to get to each other. And something like this after years of dealing with each other in the most intimade ways, of telling each other the most intimate secrets of their lives to each other, of course they knew what hits to make and what hurts. The final confrontation was about what hurts.
Ennis just was standing there biting his nails as he told Jack he moved up the date, he knew what explosion was going to happen, the emotional storm that would follow,and Jack didn't let slip his reasons for sex with others as an "ooops" moment, but that he wasn't Ennis, Jack knew this one thing would hurt Ennis. Each man had a leash on each other and pulled.
I don't know if you agree with me that leash was the love they had for each other, and what bound them. And don't get me wrong I don't mean this in a bad way, but just the way it was. It's like couples we know in our lives, and we wonder "How in the world they stay together?", but they do, and couldn't really function without each other.
Absolutely, that leash was their love and it was what bound them. I don't take it as a negative statement, just how it was. That same leash kept them constricted at times but also connected to each other, so it could never truly be seen as a negative. Without it, they wouldn't have been anchored. Just like an actual dog on a leash, he may pull against the restraint but it is there after all to protect him and keep him close to his owner. Their love (that leash) both protected and pulled at them, restrained them and freed them.
Sigh, sometimes love just isn't easy, is it?
Tammy,
I'm thinking of the scenes on the mountain, Jack's relationship with his father, Ennis's confessing his virginity, we get a glimispes of these two men,. Almost touching on what we're talking about. Jack's emotional need, the sexual awakening of Ennis. I may be wrong, but I don't know but it seem like those scenes hit at what made them tick.
Yea, yes MG you're right!! ^f^ I was only saying that maybe they talked about every simply thing, about their problems, fears and wishes...their dreams and hopes, their secrets...but never about what they were feeling for each other, never about love...
Am I wrong? Just asking.... ^f^
Tammy,
I'm thinking of the scenes on the mountain, Jack's relationship with his father, Ennis's confessing his virginity, we get a glimispes of these two men,. Almost touching on what we're talking about. Jack's emotional need, the sexual awakening of Ennis. I may be wrong, but I don't know but it seem like those scenes hit at what made them tick.
Step away from that there whisky spring.
Ah well Ill try to say something...
The roles are varying in degree from relationship to relationship. We have to define the roles as the relationship plays out. Some men only like to be active <top> others will like to mostly/only recieve <bottom>. There is usualy some flux even there. Its as varried as anything else two men get together for. From the one extreme "ONLY" do this, to the other "anything anywhere anytime."
Men have a way of recieving much pleasure being the reciever in ways women don't, for the same activity. An can get from A to Z doing it.
For a more graphic introduction try google. Or maybe someone else can be more....thorough. Vague I know.
Not to be too personal, but if there are any gay guys or knowledgable straight men or women posting, I have QUESTIONS! Do roles ever change between partners, from being submissive, to being dominant, within the same relationship (ie., Jack and Ennis)?
And anatomically speaking, how was Jack satisfied physically if Ennis always served as the dominant partner? Please don't kick me off this website; I am a bit sex-challenged!
Well put, Ranchand and Thomas.
And pattyjean, being top or bottom doesn't necessarily indicate a dominant role in the relationship, only a preference in that particular regard.
Well put, Ranchand and Thomas.
And pattyjean, being top or bottom doesn't necessarily indicate a dominant role in the relationship, only a preference in that particular regard.
I agree,Barbˇ. :clap: IMO,dominant role is more a psychical than a physical question.In this concrete case,Jack was the dominant character in that he took the initiative,in both senses,even if Ennis could be dominant in a more "masculine" way.
Thank you tpe, ranchand, and child: TYVM for your most informative input! Now I won't have to Google this topic: If the Feds ever confiscate my laptop, I would not want THAT Google search showing up! LOL
Jack's acting ability--gasping, heavy breathing, etc., were typical responses to the high-altitude fireworks, were they not? So thanks to you three, we can throw out the concern about "discomfort"...for Jack, or anyone else...
Your not alone patty. I think more then a few wrecked there eyesite on that scene. Pain oh ya. But not enough to stop that train from rollin. Specialy with only slick and spit. I think thats how Annie described it.
Would have taken a bear a porcupine and a sack of rattlers to stop them two in that tent on that night. An a moose thrown in for good measure.
To far?
Your not alone patty. I think more then a few wrecked there eyesite on that scene. Pain oh ya. But not enough to stop that train from rollin. Specialy with only slick and spit. I think thats how Annie described it.
Would have taken a bear a porcupine and a sack of rattlers to stop them two in that tent on that night. An a moose thrown in for good measure.
To far?
I would have joined them in that night,and I'm not a porcupine nor a bearˇ >:Did have joined also... but i hairy like a bear...and well i have a sack and a snake ::)
ooooooooh! ;Dbut i dont have the porcupine ;D
If you don't mind Brokies this is going a bit off topic, huh? ???
If you don't mind Brokies this is going a bit off topic, huh? ???
At that point, I don't think courage had anything to do with it. It was pure testosterone. ;D
Loved the "huh?" at the end of your sentence--Ennis used that euphanism when Jack was dismantling the tent in order to "bring 'em down". Speaking of sexual roles: In the reunion scene I loved the fact that Ennis was the one to initially proclaim his still burning passion for Jack by initiating that first explosive "best onscreen kiss of 2005"! It seemed, at first viewing, to be very out of character for Ennis--considering the homophobic childhood he had experienced. It took great courage for Ennis to throw Jack against the wall, knock his hat off and just plant one! That sizzling embrace--the thrill of holding Jack again--after four years was more than he could handle! The fear of discovery he had to hold at bay... :^^)so true..his character was living in so much fear..when the reunion after 4 years happened and Ennis met jack after 4 long long years all the feelings came back like a flood in his heart and his heart, mind and body got out of control.,.he just wanted to be impulsive for once in his life and just show jack through his action that how much he loved and missed him..that initiation is just so wonderful..jack too gets so overhelemd when he realizes that Ennis felt the same fire in him for 4 years...
I still like that "huh?" chameau: Was that intentional, since Ennis had used it in the movie? I noticed it right away because you are Canadian, and I would have expected "eh?" instead, which I am inclined to use myself, living near the Canadian border. This reminds me that the "huh?" preceded the pouting of Ennis sitting on the log and then on the hillside: His anger at Jack (for reeling him into this heartbreaking intimate situation) boils over after Jack unintentionally gives him a bloody nose with his knee. He responded with the hard punch, hoping to imply that he was in control!
Yes.
It is a question of recognizing it as a the g-spot, shall we say.
Anyway, thinking how they completely belonged to each other, how they loved each other and how they were devoted to each other, any kind of lovemaking should be possible, but to imagine Ennis in passive role - I just can't! I don't see him on all his four!
;D ;D Oh well, there are TONS of other postures that two guys can use to make love (you should read slash... >:D >:D ). But I get what you are saying. I love Ennis as top and Jack as bottom, and, like you, I believe that in their first lovemakings Jack used to be the passive one. Truth is I often think that Jack was almost always the bottom one, because he accepted his sexuality and he had not as many problems as being gay like Ennis had. But, lots of other brokies think that Ennis often was bottom too. So who knows? We were not there to see what the real deal was, right? Oh yes, we wish!!! ;D >:D
Well I've never really given it much thought but I had always thought that Jack was the passive while Ennis took the more dominant role. From points in the film, it always seemed that Jack would fit the shoes of the more passive in the relationship. Although I think my point would be sort of counter-balanced by the part where it would appear that Ennis is wanting to be held by Jack indicating that Jack might be the more active one... I'm sure that in relationships like this that even the active one would love to be held from time to time...
The prostate gland, to be exact......
Well, I just found this thread and love it! ::) I know what are you thinking, but it's just that I asked myself the same question and had no knowledge how the things are going in physical love between 2 men.
??? ??? ???
But few posts in this thread gave me much better picture.... hm...
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi410.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp186%2Floreent%2Fblushing.gif&hash=11d5a90cf135024a96f7ec48e48e470bbe5e87f2)
Ennis as a virgin took an active role in FNIT, and for him I suppose that was the way things are. Jack so willingly surrendered and let Ennis turn him around. For a guy like Ennis, who did it for the first time, that was the only way of making love that he knew of and he was not able to accept another role.
Anyway, thinking how they completely belonged to each other, how they loved each other and how they were devoted to each other, any kind of lovemaking should be possible, but to imagine Ennis in passive role - I just can't! I don't see him on all his four!
I can leave only a tiny possibility that he could take passive role much much later when he became comfortable about it. But at beginning of their physical relationship - Jack was always passive! IMO, of course. :)
Well I've never really given it much thought but I had always thought that Jack was the passive while Ennis took the more dominant role. From points in the film, it always seemed that Jack would fit the shoes of the more passive in the relationship. Although I think my point would be sort of counter-balanced by the part where it would appear that Ennis is wanting to be held by Jack indicating that Jack might be the more active one... I'm sure that in relationships like this that even the active one would love to be held from time to time...
Welcome, Lobsel-Vith!Yes,it can be...As a matter of fact,I was going to talk about the possibility of switching roles as a way for Ennis to show his wish to please Jack,and,as a result of this,his love for him.Even if I said in a former post that in the beginning of their sexual relationships and sometimes,when routine "weighed" a little more,Ennis sense of masculinity wouldn't allow him to be the passive so easily.But I also added that surely in SNIT,bearing in mind the circumstances,was more than possible that Ennis "lowered his guard",and IMO this could be applied to many other moments,why not?.Surely it wasn't Ennis favorite posture,and surely if he did it or not doesn't matter so much,because Jack,in the end,was really the "active and dominant"in their relationship-not necessarily in a physical sense...-.But more surely still,there was his love for Jack,and when things are like that,there're no rules.Just the rule of love.
Your POV is certainly shared by many here, although I too noted the motel scene posture.
Now, the question I pose to a number of you is this: even if there is a preferred role in the case of either partner, would you consider it possible/probable that they would sometimes switch roles? This is much more common than people think... You see such a scene in the recent French film, Les Témoins, which was presented in a way that I actually found quite typical -- when an older partner wants to please the younger and does this as a show of confidence/love.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0487273/
;D Well, I can imagine Ennis in a passive role, although I admit that I am probably in the minority here. ;)
Incidentally, there was a study done on gay sexual partners long ago. One interesting thing noted was that in a lot of relationships where there was clearly a "dominant", more outspoken, or older partner, it was this partner who liked to play passive. I found it quite curious until I began to observe the phenomenon in real life. I am not saying that it is always the case, but the study nothes that it is more common that people suppose it to be...
Welcome, Lobsel-Vith!
Your POV is certainly shared by many here, although I too noted the motel scene posture.
Now, the question I pose to a number of you is this: even if there is a preferred role in the case of either partner, would you consider it possible/probable that they would sometimes switch roles? This is much more common than people think... You see such a scene in the recent French film, Les Témoins, which was presented in a way that I actually found quite typical -- when an older partner wants to please the younger and does this as a show of confidence/love.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0487273/
Agree, AF, yes sir. ^f^ I'm a bottom!Jack's girl all the way. But, like I said before, a good bunch of other brokies think that Ennis was often bottom too. I respect them. Once I almost got kicked because I was WAY too much pretty sure that Ennis was only top and top and top. ;D ;D ;D Now I see that it could be the other way around too. I still think that Jack was the bottom one, but, like I said to Loreen, we don't know for sure. The SS and the script have not even a line about their sexual preferences beyond FNIT. So I think that in our fantasies (yeeessss, I have fantasies about it.... ::) >:D ) it can be whatever way we think they liked it. That way we all are happy. <^( <^(
[size=06pt]Me with my top Ennis and bottom Jack.[/size]
I'm sure it's fully possible that they would, I think. I mean the last scene that they were together Jack was taking care of Ennis in a way that would appear dominant... I wouldn't doubt the possibility that they would change roles.
Yes,it can be...As a matter of fact,I was going to talk about the possibility of switching roles as a way for Ennis to show his wish to please Jack,and,as a result of this,his love for him.Even if I said in a former post that in the beginning of their sexual relationships and sometimes,when routine "weighed" a little more,Ennis sense of masculinity wouldn't allow him to be the passive so easily.But I also added that surely in SNIT,bearing in mind the circumstances,was more than possible that Ennis "lowered his guard",and IMO this could be applied to many other moments,why not?.Surely it wasn't Ennis favorite posture,and surely if he did it or not doesn't matter so much,because Jack,in the end,was really the "active and dominant"in their relationship-not necessarily in a physical sense...-.But more surely still,there was his love for Jack,and when things are like that,there're no rules.Just the rule of love.
If I understood correctly tpe, you say that dominant partner is surprisingly more likely to be a passive side. If so, isn't it the case with Jack ad Ennis. Jack was the one who initiated their relationship, he was the one who always console Ennis, who was more open to every aspect of their relationship. Also, he is the one who held Ennis in Motel, he is more promiscues... I see him in a way as a more dominant in psychological side.
But as I said, I can leave a tiny possibility for swapping position in later relationship.
I think it was a matter of control with Ennis. I don't know (scratching head) In FNIT he was making sure that he was the one in control flipping Jack over like that. He also did it with Alma . I have no doubt that some "dominant" men switch roles sexually , but it depends on each indepenent couple In this case I feel it gives some insight into Ennis's preferred role. To be on top, He is "dominant in all other aspects of he and Jack's relationship because of the way he felt about himself being with Jack. He made all the rules outside of sex. I have no reason yet why he would relinquish it during sex. As Loreen said ...Ennis on "all fours"? Sorry I still don't see him doing it. I also feel that Jack preferred it that way too. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's just my opinion. Thanx
Can I put my two cents in? I can understand what loreen is saying, I think Jack top from the bottom. It can be hard to determine in any relationship, hetero or gay relationships, the dominant and passive roles. It can be so intimate, and can be surprisingly tricky if just looked at from the surface. JMO
I think the Motel scene gives us some insight into the possibility that Ennis might be willing to bottom. (I can't believe I'm discussing this). ::)
I think the Motel scene gives us some insight into the possibility that Ennis might be willing to bottom. (I can't believe I'm discussing this). ::)
;D And why not? :)
I feel the same way. I know that all this is circumstantial/speculative, but it is something I pretty much associate with what I have observed in reality...
Tpe, this is just it! Not all of us are not associated with it and haven't observed it in reality, but somehow it became a vivid part of out life that we are seriously discusing about! #) %&)
:)
Yes, I also think this was what loreen implied in her previous post.
Again, in that study I mentioned, it is all about perception -- on who was considered the "dominant" partner (in this case, the older one who had more control in terms of finances and emotional stability, etc.)
Well, I also see here that in your mind Ennis could be the dominant (but also passive) partner, cos it's him who always set the rules between them.... that's tricky I have to admit. :s)
Either way, there's no right answer, just our personal anticipation of their relationship.
One way or the other, up or down, I am sure as he**, they enjoyed it! ::)
I should qualify however that not everything is reducible to our own unique experiences, so to say otherwise is also valid. In the end, it is probably a case by case basis. But what I said simply suggests a reason why I thought the way I did. :)
I think I understood your point of view correctly :) , but you also have to bare in mind that some of us have had no previous knowledge about this matter whatsoever. As I once said, for me it was the first time to saw 2 men kissing! Not to mention the rest... (^) ::)
;D
OK. But I should add that being unbiased ("virgin") about things can also help as much as it can limit... :)
Considering my time consuming investigations around the thread about some facts #) , I am not so sure that absence of the knowledge in this matter can be helpful.
But apparently all of us can only say what we think and feel, and in the end - no one knows for sure.
Though, it would be nice if we could have had a little peek, just to be sure .... ::) #) #)
;D ;D ;D