Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: Tony on May 25, 2008, 02:15 PM
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Sometimes, it seems that many Brokies have reconstructed a whole new version to Ennis and Jack outside Aguirre's trailer:
Jack: Hmmm..... this guy fits the bill for what I've been hankering for, and I'm a-gonna git him, whether he knows it or not.....
Ennis: As a repressed homosexual, I've noticed Jack ain't that bad looking, but, things being what they are, me being shy and all, it'll take some doing
before I get around to boinging him.
In short, some number of Brokies see sexual love at first sight and suppose they should have gone behind the trailer, stripped down, and ravished each other. You know who you are. You're just not going to admit it.
But in another thread, of Aintfoolin's, we've gone into Ennis being a loner, and have some agreement there. Annie Proulx has Ennis riding off, very early, believing he'd finally found....a friend. No sex mentioned. There is some strong evidence that Ennis went from a deeply-needed friendship, to sex, and then to romantic love. Jack, maybe, was sub-consciously toying with all three, very early (Annie does have him as inexperienced).
So the areas we might explore are, the progression of one to the next, in each, and what was the FINAL mixture? For instance, had Ennis internalized the final mixture of friendship love and romantic love, and left the sex a shabby but significant third, allowing him to survive on sex twice a year? Was that a part of the problem? In fact, did the love, for Ennis, greatly outrank the sex (desirable as that was)?
And what about the "signals" given, before FNIT? Come on ---were they ALL sexual? Tentatively probing? Or was it just natural for Ennis to wash up off a bit, in distance, from a buddy?
Usually, when my threads are bug-splat on the windshield, it's because the introduction was too messy, so, will try again: Friendship was an unusually strong force for these two as --they had few friends. Sex was something that Jack was able to broaden out past Ennis, as an independently existing need (sex with another male). Romantic love, in the film, seemed to be fully born in SNIT, for both, but hidden somewhat, from fear.
These are 3 different categories: friendship, love, and sex. How did they interweave, and, if imbalanced, was that part of the troubles?
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If I understand you correctly, Tony. There was a progression from friendship to sex to love. Both Ennis and Jack craved friendship. Ennis living a life of set rules, after his parents death from his sister to brother to marriage, his life was pretty much lonely, and with a almost self imposed exile from displaying his emotion, but still had a clear plan of what he was suppose to do. Jack living with an abusive father and passive, but loving mother, pretty much bounce around the country, from herding jobs to rodeos, "..and he was crazy to be somewhere anywhere else than Lightning Flats." Both in their own way lonely, hungry found each other, unexpectedly a bond was form, friendship, there was no warning, and each man wasn't seeking it, they needed the bucks, but look what happened, they found each other.
And from there the sexual roars out at them and over them. Like Eve biting that damn apple, Jack takes Ennis's hand. And that's how we see it, Jack started this whole thing. But why, what gave Jack the courage to take Ennis' hand. Not so much where he puts it, but what gave him the courage to even to do the small act? Was it when Ennis came back being thrown the horse and Jack wipe his wound. Was it when Jack asked Ennis who he really was, and was interested in hearing his story. Was it when Jack showed respect for Ennis abilities as hunter, and showed his appreciation for it. Was he being seen as man,a complete man, I may not be clear, even wrong, but what was Ennis's response to Jack that first night. He hauls Jack over on all fours and takes him. This virgin, this innocent, knew what Jack wanted, the total man. Ennis was the total man with Jack, no part of him favored over the other, but him completely.
I hope this kind of hitting on what you want. I don't know? But this is gonna be fun.
Tony another great thread thanks.
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And from there the sexual roars out at them and over them. Like Eve biting that damn apple, Jack takes Ennis's hand. And that's how we see it, Jack started this whole thing. But why, what gave Jack the courage to take Ennis' hand. Not so much where he puts it, but what gave him the courage to even to do the small act? Was it when Ennis came back being thrown the horse and Jack wipe his wound. Was it when Jack asked Ennis who he really was, and was interested in hearing his story. Was it when Jack showed respect for Ennis abilities as hunter, and showed his appreciation for it. Was he being seen as man,a complete man, I may not be clear, even wrong, but what was Ennis's response to Jack that first night. He hauls Jack over on all fours and takes him. This virgin, this innocent, knew what Jack wanted, the total man. Ennis was the total man with Jack, no part of him favored over the other, but him completely.
Of course, Manhattangirl, that's exactly where I wanted to go. On this forum, 2 years later, we are still developing new information and insights, and I hope exploring friendship>sex>romantic love, as the start, and then the balances and imbalances later, works as a means to try for more.
I do believe my own reaction to FNIT was different from most other people's. I saw Jack as having found the first real friend he'd ever had and wanting to lock that in and "compromise" Ennis, by sex. ANY sex (because the type of sex wasn't immediately settled on). And I saw Ennis as confused, and seeing his own loneliness exposed and saying, by shoving Jack into position: "You want to end my loneliness? This is the price." Harsh. Except, as it turned out, they both kinda sorta got lucky as Jack discovered he LIKED that particular price.
I also see a triple hit: first real friendship; the sex...worked (FNIT), and romantic love roared out and over them (to use your words) in SNIT. One unexpected punch after another.
As for the progression in each, individually, am not sure. You mention when Jack wiped the blood off of Ennis' forehead. And that tenderness looked to me like Jack had jumped from friendship to romantic love, before the sex. That was a very tender scene, up close.
But there still would be 3 separate categories through the years: friendship (riding through the streams), sex (always there, at every meeting up), and romantic love, breaking through, at times. What was the mixture in each, I wonder? Did Ennis tilt towards a sacred friendship, not trusting the other 2?
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Sometimes, it seems that many Brokies have reconstructed a whole new version to Ennis and Jack outside Aguirre's trailer:
Jack: Hmmm..... this guy fits the bill for what I've been hankering for, and I'm a-gonna git him, whether he knows it or not.....
Ennis: As a repressed homosexual, I've noticed Jack ain't that bad looking, but, things being what they are, me being shy and all, it'll take some doing
before I get around to boinging him.
In short, some number of Brokies see sexual love at first sight and suppose they should have gone behind the trailer, stripped down, and ravished each other. You know who you are. You're just not going to admit it.
But in another thread, of Aintfoolin's, we've gone into Ennis being a loner, and have some agreement there. Annie Proulx has Ennis riding off, very early, believing he'd finally found....a friend. No sex mentioned. There is some strong evidence that Ennis went from a deeply-needed friendship, to sex, and then to romantic love. Jack, maybe, was sub-consciously toying with all three, very early (Annie does have him as inexperienced).
So the areas we might explore are, the progression of one to the next, in each, and what was the FINAL mixture? For instance, had Ennis internalized the final mixture of friendship love and romantic love, and left the sex a shabby but significant third, allowing him to survive on sex twice a year? Was that a part of the problem? In fact, did the love, for Ennis, greatly outrank the sex (desirable as that was)?
And what about the "signals" given, before FNIT? Come on ---were they ALL sexual? Tentatively probing? Or was it just natural for Ennis to wash up off a bit, in distance, from a buddy?
Usually, when my threads are bug-splat on the windshield, it's because the introduction was too messy, so, will try again: Friendship was an unusually strong force for these two as --they had few friends. Sex was something that Jack was able to broaden out past Ennis, as an independently existing need (sex with another male). Romantic love, in the film, seemed to be fully born in SNIT, for both, but hidden somewhat, from fear.
These are 3 different categories: friendship, love, and sex. How did they interweave, and, if imbalanced, was that part of the troubles?
Great post...Tony. Here's my quick response.
I agree with you that it was a progression, and may even go further to say that Ennis was not aware of where the progression was heading until his heart was in it, and he couldn't pull out, hence the punch on the Mountain.
Having said that you can see where I draw the line you asked for. By the way, before I draw 'em lines on the sand, I must confess that these are fuzzy line conceptual lines at best, and speculative non-existent imaginary lines at worst. By the way, I am speaking on behalf of Ennis. Someone with more intimate knowledge of Jack can do the other side.
Friendship - All through the summer of '63, seeded in the bar when Jack sympathized with Ennis' parents death, then grew with Jack's bravado at every turn, and come to full blossom in the fireside talk with that gorgeous smile.
Sex - First seed when Ennis got buck naked in front of Jack, washing everywhere, and escalated from there until FNIT, fully matured in SNIT
Romantic Love - seeded early after the bear incident, developed during SNIT, and took root during the hail storm, resented on the way down from the mountain, re-discovered in the reunion kiss, rekindled in the motel room, and full blossom diving into the lake buck naked.
Just my two cents worth on a worthy project. <^(
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If I understand you correctly, Tony. There was a progression from friendship to sex to love. Both Ennis and Jack craved friendship. Ennis living a life of set rules, after his parents death from his sister to brother to marriage, his life was pretty much lonely, and with a almost self imposed exile from displaying his emotion, but still had a clear plan of what he was suppose to do. Jack living with an abusive father and passive, but loving mother, pretty much bounce around the country, from herding jobs to rodeos, "..and he was crazy to be somewhere anywhere else than Lightning Flats." Both in their own way lonely, hungry found each other, unexpectedly a bond was form, friendship, there was no warning, and each man wasn't seeking it, they needed the bucks, but look what happened, they found each other.
And from there the sexual roars out at them and over them. Like Eve biting that damn apple, Jack takes Ennis's hand. And that's how we see it, Jack started this whole thing. But why, what gave Jack the courage to take Ennis' hand. Not so much where he puts it, but what gave him the courage to even to do the small act? Was it when Ennis came back being thrown the horse and Jack wipe his wound. Was it when Jack asked Ennis who he really was, and was interested in hearing his story. Was it when Jack showed respect for Ennis abilities as hunter, and showed his appreciation for it. Was he being seen as man,a complete man, I may not be clear, even wrong, but what was Ennis's response to Jack that first night. He hauls Jack over on all fours and takes him. This virgin, this innocent, knew what Jack wanted, the total man. Ennis was the total man with Jack, no part of him favored over the other, but him completely.
I hope this kind of hitting on what you want. I don't know? But this is gonna be fun.
Tony another great thread thanks.
Hey, Manhattangirl, great posts elicite great responses. I love a few of your sentences in particular:
"Both in their own way lonely, hungry found each other, unexpectedly a bond was form, friendship, there was no warning, and each man wasn't seeking it, they needed the bucks, but look what happened, they found each other."
"But why, what gave Jack the courage to take Ennis' hand. Not so much where he puts it, but what gave him the courage to even to do the small act?"
They were NOT expecting it, and love found them. I don't think Jack expected the end results, either. And you asked a question that has been in the back of my mind from the beginning, but never asked clearly. What gave Jack the courage to initiate FNIT?
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Of course, Manhattangirl, that's exactly where I wanted to go. On this forum, 2 years later, we are still developing new information and insights, and I hope exploring friendship>sex>romantic love, as the start, and then the balances and imbalances later, works as a means to try for more.
I do believe my own reaction to FNIT was different from most other people's. I saw Jack as having found the first real friend he'd ever had and wanting to lock that in and "compromise" Ennis, by sex. ANY sex (because the type of sex wasn't immediately settled on). And I saw Ennis as confused, and seeing his own loneliness exposed and saying, by shoving Jack into position: "You want to end my loneliness? This is the price." Harsh. Except, as it turned out, they both kinda sorta got lucky as Jack discovered he LIKED that particular price.
I also see a triple hit: first real friendship; the sex...worked (FNIT), and romantic love roared out and over them (to use your words) in SNIT. One unexpected punch after another.
As for the progression in each, individually, am not sure. You mention when Jack wiped the blood off of Ennis' forehead. And that tenderness looked to me like Jack had jumped from friendship to romantic love, before the sex. That was a very tender scene, up close.
But there still would be 3 separate categories through the years: friendship (riding through the streams), sex (always there, at every meeting up), and romantic love, breaking through, at times. What was the mixture in each, I wonder? Did Ennis tilt towards a sacred friendship, not trusting the other 2?
I love this. It gets better and better. I agree with everything you have been saying, and in the end, I think Ennis trusted the sacred friendship more than the sex and romantic love because friendship he understands and can wrap his head around it. Sex with a man was okay as long as he was top, and it's out in the middle of nowhere, every once in a while. Romantic love with a man...that just ain't going to happen. He punched Jack on the mountain because he was confused by those feelings. He ran down the steps and kissed Jack with passion because he let those feelings run free. He kept his distance all those 20 years, because he still couldn't put reins on them feelings, and didn't know what to do with them...Earl and Rich made it clear they could NOT live together, so what to do? It's after Cassie in the diner that he started to put 2 and 2 together and came up with the four letter word. ...
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If I understand you correctly, Tony. There was a progression from friendship to sex to love. Both Ennis and Jack craved friendship. Ennis living a life of set rules, after his parents death from his sister to brother to marriage, his life was pretty much lonely, and with a almost self imposed exile from displaying his emotion, but still had a clear plan of what he was suppose to do. Jack living with an abusive father and passive, but loving mother, pretty much bounce around the country, from herding jobs to rodeos, "..and he was crazy to be somewhere anywhere else than Lightning Flats." Both in their own way lonely, hungry found each other, unexpectedly a bond was form, friendship, there was no warning, and each man wasn't seeking it, they needed the bucks, but look what happened, they found each other.
And from there the sexual roars out at them and over them. Like Eve biting that damn apple, Jack takes Ennis's hand. And that's how we see it, Jack started this whole thing. But why, what gave Jack the courage to take Ennis' hand. Not so much where he puts it, but what gave him the courage to even to do the small act? Was it when Ennis came back being thrown the horse and Jack wipe his wound. Was it when Jack asked Ennis who he really was, and was interested in hearing his story. Was it when Jack showed respect for Ennis abilities as hunter, and showed his appreciation for it. Was he being seen as man,a complete man, I may not be clear, even wrong, but what was Ennis's response to Jack that first night. He hauls Jack over on all fours and takes him. This virgin, this innocent, knew what Jack wanted, the total man. Ennis was the total man with Jack, no part of him favored over the other, but him completely.
I hope this kind of hitting on what you want. I don't know? But this is gonna be fun.
Tony another great thread thanks.
Aother great unique thread from you Tony, MG is right It's gonna be fun.
I like this. The three stages, friendship , love then sex. are just imo, the natural stages in a progessive relationship. Certain basic essentials are established in each stage. MG. hit on certain events in the friendship stage in which trust , compatability, are established. Two strangers feeling each other out. They work well together as co-workers like a well oiled machine, each did their part to ensure the job hired for ,got done. Shows each other they are trustworthy, honorable people and a friendship is born through the commomnality of them both, two country boys, ranch stiffs, two deuces, similar backgrounds, searching for work.
Love stage, I feel kinda snuck up on them. I don't think there was pinpointed moment when it actually happened. I think Jack read alot into Ennis that day by the fire, Ennis telling Jack his history, but before that Jack had told his. Both their fathers had robbed them of pride and self-esteem, as children. Both knew shame and intolerance. Within their friendship, they found what had been lost again, in each other. They were soon drawn to each other like a magnet to steel., Ennis was eager to please, and Jack, concerned, caring, and had a nurturing quality about him.
Ennis had to wonder why it was Jack he felt able to open himself up to by his " that's the most I've said in a year". Jack had to wonder if he was the cause. Something was happening. Enjoyed being near one another, Jack blaming Aguirre for not letting them. Well Ennis fixes that situation for him by offering to switch jobs, now he can decide if their together more easily without having to explain that there was a growing physical attraction and longing there and that went beyond friendship. I think he took matters into his own hands Jack, who was feeling it too did'nt discourage him.. . Jack never asked Ennis to remain in camp before FNIT, that decision was made by Ennis and Ennis alone. I also feel secretly, he loved Jack's goofy harmonica playing and Jack secretly liked Ennis teasing him about it. Jack was'nt giving an inch but Ennis knew that mare did'nt just *get lucky*. Their sense of each other grew into an awareness of a need for each other's company. Soon, Jack is singin, with Ennis giving him a *grand finale drum beat with stick, and engaged in this deep converstion about religion, who's a sinner and whose not, and they're both gonna be marching off to hell on judgement day, but there's just something in the way Ennis looks at Jack at the end of this scene that says to me...This is more than friendship, *I could love this man*.By this point I feel they both knew each one was who the other wanted and needed.
Sex, There was a longing there to express it in some way. Some way to show that their friendship and evolved into something else, alot deeper. Jack felt he had the remedy, but I mean ...what was Jack gonna say? Ennis, wanna do it? Ennis , get in here and do me? I know you want me?..nah there was a situation goin on and he just did it,, and Ennis did'nt go running and screaming from the tent Why? Because his first trusted friend now wanted to be his lover. A leap he was hesitant , but willing to take. Later, Ennis was content to "wring it out" with Jack in mind, while Jack needed the real touch and feel of someone else...preferrably Ennis.
Jack was willing to try some form of sexual expression ( FNIT)and put his suspicions about Ennis to the test , he was right. They both had come a long way from that awkward handshake in front of Aguirre's trailor. SNIT was a confirmation of all that had come before... The moment when they both knew this was'nt not just friendship, but truly somethin else. Think they really, really, really enjoyed sex with each other. Anywhere on isolated Brokeback became fair game for them to express it. The distance between them later kept it new to them, this was'nt just about sex. It was about finding your partner for life, never ending friendship and trust, always comforting, always the same. My take, Thanx.
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Dear Manhattangirl - sometimes it takes me 24 hours to register something completely, and that happened with your question about what gave Jack the courage to make the first move, in FNIT. That is so pivotal a moment, it's worthy of its own thread, but Aintfoolin and Andrew have gone into it here, so, for now....I guess we ought to do some more there. And am borrowing from their answers, partly.
There is sexuality, some say, in just about every part of our thought patterns. And that could include a straight male or female sizing up someone of their own gender as to physical attractiveness, as opposed to physical attraction, (and there's a fine line there). I don't see Ennis physically attracted to Jack, but, instead, bowled over, secretly and quietly, by an emerging friendship love, the likes of which he never thought to see. But Jack? Jack was sensual by nature. And am not being critical by saying ---he was a born love-puppy.
IMO, then, (and I apologize for armchair psychology), Ennis caught on sub-consciously to Jack's sensual nature and sent out those signals that I now have to admit were there. I had to be dragged kicking and screaming into conceding this, but, yeah, Ennis ARRANGED the first night by getting stinking drunk and sleeping over. Jack picked up the signals. They were sleeping very close together, itself a beginning intimacy, if you think about it. And all Jack did was take it up a few notches and pull Ennis' hand over. Now here's a question...given that further intimacy, was it possible that they both could have slept on, semi-sexually? Meaning, just hand contact? Jack's first move was aggressive, but not THAT aggressive. Ennis freaked, and from there came the show-down - do we do it or don't we?
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Friendship - All through the summer of '63, seeded in the bar when Jack sympathized with Ennis' parents death, then grew with Jack's bravado at every turn, and come to full blossom in the fireside talk with that gorgeous smile.
Sex - First seed when Ennis got buck naked in front of Jack, washing everywhere, and escalated from there until FNIT, fully matured in SNIT
Romantic Love - seeded early after the bear incident, developed during SNIT, and took root during the hail storm, resented on the way down from the mountain, re-discovered in the reunion kiss, rekindled in the motel room, and full blossom diving into the lake buck naked.
Dear Andrew - these careful step-by-step answers are always great. By the way, it seems to me this whole subject of developing relationships is very much in your bailiwick, so please feel free to develop any aspect as you see fit. As you said, the above were your first reactions, so I would hope you will go even further. The interaction between friendship, sex, and romantic love were, if I recall, some of your first postings on this forum, so, it will be interesting to see how you see things now. Myself, I do see Ennis putting the "sacred friendship" first, and you seemed OK with that.
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Hi- Aintfoolin - That was a tightly reasoned and well written post, above. I've always thought, when you get to a final synopsis, you've really got the subject covered, and you were pretty quick in getting there this time. Your usual expertise is Ennis, so I was a little surprised you are doing so well with Jack. Especially when you go to his testing his suspicions about Ennis, when he made his move (if I've got that right). There was a lot of back and forth before FNIT, and am wondering what fell in each category, friendship, sex, and love. It was a very good post, and I'll need to re-read it a number of times.
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Hey, Manhattangirl, great posts elicite great responses. I love a few of your sentences in particular:
"Both in their own way lonely, hungry found each other, unexpectedly a bond was form, friendship, there was no warning, and each man wasn't seeking it, they needed the bucks, but look what happened, they found each other."
"But why, what gave Jack the courage to take Ennis' hand. Not so much where he puts it, but what gave him the courage to even to do the small act?"
They were NOT expecting it, and love found them. I don't think Jack expected the end results, either. And you asked a question that has been in the back of my mind from the beginning, but never asked clearly. What gave Jack the courage to initiate FNIT?
Lance,
I have been thinking maybe Jack was having one of those *nice dreams* If you know what I mean. Having a warm Ennis laying close up on him did'nt hurt either. Sometimes when there is a strong attraction , perhaps thought upon right before sleep, he made have been in the semi-concious sleepy state of arousal already in a dream. Do you feel that maybe Jack was'nt even concious of what he was doing in FNIT?Jack may have had this fantasy for a while before, and within this "nice dream *just reached over? until Ennis jumped.
This may or may not blow my previous concept of Jack suspecting Ennis's secret desires towards him out of the water but it's just another theory of how Jack ended up with his hand on Ennis , bringing it over to himself. Ennis may have been just going about his regular routine of stripping down in front of a *buddy* to wash, but Jack seemed like he could barely keep it together. I have many thoughts and go back and forth on how Jack found the courage to do it, this is just one.
I always believed from the beginning that Jack , while inexperienced as Tony says A, Proux had him, was attracted to men and fantisized alot. I can't help but feel when Ennis was stripping down saying stuff like "balls the size a apples" kinda fed into what was already a mindset in Jack. Obviously he was effected by Ennis's buck-naked in front of him. May not have even understood why, but he was definitly feeling something.
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Thanks for the kind words, Tony. I don't know if this is my "bailiwick" as you call it, but you have an amazing memory to recall that one of my first posts was regarding this whole transition from friendship through sex to love. In a way, the discussion here is pointing to a different sequence, where friendship is followed by the beginning of romantic feelings, culminating in FNIT, which then led to SNIT and further development of love.
I defer to Aintfoolin's thorough analysis of Jack's motivation and state of mind when initiating FNIT. I don't recall reading about this in the short story, and I am not sure if Annie Proulx mentioned it in her interviews. I can see valid support for both "subconscious" dreaming leading to action, and "conscious" testing the water. Jack is certainly attracted to Ennis from the beginning. Whether he would have done anything without Ennis' subtle signals is another story.
In the final analysis, I believe the movie is great precisely because it reflects reality so well, even in the ambiguity of the motivation behind the actions from Jack and Ennis. We all do things with fuzzy boundaries. There are not necessarily a fixed and clear reason for what we do. Perhaps Jack gained the courage from Ennis, and the whiskey, and he was conscious of his feelings, and wanted to test the waters. The Aristotelean logic of either-or does not always apply when it comes to human emotions and motivations. I tend to believe that all of the above had some weight in contributing to FNIT, and all that follows.
JMHO
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Sometimes, it seems that many Brokies have reconstructed a whole new version to Ennis and Jack outside Aguirre's trailer:
Jack: Hmmm..... this guy fits the bill for what I've been hankering for, and I'm a-gonna git him, whether he knows it or not.....
Ennis: As a repressed homosexual, I've noticed Jack ain't that bad looking, but, things being what they are, me being shy and all, it'll take some doing
before I get around to boinging him.
In short, some number of Brokies see sexual love at first sight and suppose they should have gone behind the trailer, stripped down, and ravished each other. You know who you are. You're just not going to admit it.
But in another thread, of Aintfoolin's, we've gone into Ennis being a loner, and have some agreement there. Annie Proulx has Ennis riding off, very early, believing he'd finally found....a friend. No sex mentioned. There is some strong evidence that Ennis went from a deeply-needed friendship, to sex, and then to romantic love. Jack, maybe, was sub-consciously toying with all three, very early (Annie does have him as inexperienced).
So the areas we might explore are, the progression of one to the next, in each, and what was the FINAL mixture? For instance, had Ennis internalized the final mixture of friendship love and romantic love, and left the sex a shabby but significant third, allowing him to survive on sex twice a year? Was that a part of the problem? In fact, did the love, for Ennis, greatly outrank the sex (desirable as that was)?
And what about the "signals" given, before FNIT? Come on ---were they ALL sexual? Tentatively probing? Or was it just natural for Ennis to wash up off a bit, in distance, from a buddy?
Usually, when my threads are bug-splat on the windshield, it's because the introduction was too messy, so, will try again: Friendship was an unusually strong force for these two as --they had few friends. Sex was something that Jack was able to broaden out past Ennis, as an independently existing need (sex with another male). Romantic love, in the film, seemed to be fully born in SNIT, for both, but hidden somewhat, from fear.
These are 3 different categories: friendship, love, and sex. How did they interweave, and, if imbalanced, was that part of the troubles?
I think that it was exactly in this progression: friendship --> then the first steps towards love --> then sex --> then a reaffrimation of love after a 4 year's separation.
I have always considered sex to be a manifestation of love, and this is why I say that some love was already present before FNIT.
I think that their attraction to each other was instantaneous -- present at their first meeting but so vaguely inderstood by either of them. Part of this attraction was of course sexual, even though it might have been subconscious and unrecognized during the start. It was friendship and then love that clarified this attraction for both of them.
It is difficult to separate these components cleanly. As in every human relationship, there are traces of all of these early on. I do not doubt that there was some degree of unacknowledged sexual attraction from the start. But understanding this attraction only came about later through friendship and love.
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In a way, the discussion here is pointing to a different sequence, where friendship is followed by the beginning of romantic feelings, culminating in FNIT, which then led to SNIT and further development of love.
Am not sure I follow this completely, as I don't see much love in FNIT. Also, we may be missing a step, or category, friendship>friendship love. So I wonder if the progression might have been for Ennis, friendship>friendship love>sex> romantic love, and for Jack, a less organized progression, mixing and matching categories. I know there doesn't have to be an organized step-by-step, but help me out, please, on the romantic feelings leading to FNIT. Am unable to see that, so far.
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I have always considered sex to be a manifestation of love, and this is why I say that some love was already present before FNIT.
Dear Thomas, - am sure some love was present before FNIT - no, certain. But am a little puzzled. Do you think sex is ALWAYS, in some way, a manifestation of love (as in the theory of libido)? Or were you saying sex CAN be a manifestation of love? Am a little grumpy there as have seen too much sexuality in our culture which is clearly, just... sexual release of tensions and needs.
I do understand the sense that, in the broadest terms, sex can convey, well, some kind of positive interest in the other person, the life-force, or libido, as opposed to the opposite, but am unsure if you think this is always the case.
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I think I understand what Tony is getting at, (and emphasize THINK). The suddenness of the fnit the rawness of it may throw a lot of people off it's meaning. So many people see it in different ways, and snit may seem like a "makeup" for slapping us in the face.
Many can interpet that there was no "love" in what happen to the both of them that first night. Just Jack seeing a possible sexual situation and taking advantage of it, and maybe shading our opinion of him, which sometimes I feel he was blamed for.
In Jack and Ennis's case, two men of the earth, born into a harsh and lonely life. Found each other in just that way, no hearts, no flowers, no violins playing in the background. Raw desire, and the need to be loved, like the fire, the stream, and the beans, that kept them alive. That first night might just be that manifestation of love. We think it was devoid of love, of tenderness, because we don't see it. It did something to them, because they had to be with each other again.
JMO.
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In Jack and Ennis's case, two men of the earth, born into a harsh and lonely life. Found each other in just that way, no hearts, no flowers, no violins playing in the background. Raw desire, and the need to be loved, like the fire, the stream, and the beans, that kept them alive. That first night might just be that manifestation of love. We think it was devoid of love, of tenderness, because we don't see it.
Yeah, this highlights the ruggedness of the 2 guys. I can see we could underplay romantic feelings in FNIT because, as you say, MG, there were no flowers or violins. And it was followed, and thereby undermined, by the more traditional romanticism of SNIT. Maybe the visual contact, as they squared off, and the body language, before Ennis made his choice, contained the point Jack wanted conceded: there's something between us, and it's serious. And it ain't sex but we can ratify it by sex.
What IS male "romance", between rugged guys with limited experience of tenderness? You are hitting on that, Manhattangirl, that they did not know the language of love until the following night.
But am still sticking to my initial proposal, that friendship love and only friendship love, had developed before the sex, but since it was so deep, and they had no experience there, the sex was the transformer into yet another kind of love- romantic love. And by friendship love, I mean that at its deepest possible level, co-equal to romantic love, in their case. And yet concede an orderly progression in Ennis was not paralleled by an orderly progression in Jack.
Jack had twinges of romantic love already.
At any rate, you are right - we should not suppose the lack of violins and flowers In FNIT, rules out romance. They didn't know how to DO romance, yet, although it may certainly have been there. Will need aspirins if I keep trying to track this. It was fun, though, to remember what we may have forgot- Jack's first move wasn't all that radical. All he did was force some closer snugglebunny. Didn't strip down. Looked like he may even have gone back to sleep
if Ennis hadn't of reacted so violently.
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Yeah, this highlights the ruggedness of the 2 guys. I can see we could underplay romantic feelings in FNIT because, as you say, MG, there were no flowers or violins. And it was followed, and thereby undermined, by the more traditional romanticism of SNIT. Maybe the visual contact, as they squared off, and the body language, before Ennis made his choice, contained the point Jack wanted conceded: there's something between us, and it's serious. And it ain't sex but we can ratify it by sex.
What IS male "romance", between rugged guys with limited experience of tenderness? You are hitting on that, Manhattangirl, that they did not know the language of love until the following night.
But am still sticking to my initial proposal, that friendship love and only friendship love, had developed before the sex, but since it was so deep, and they had no experience there, the sex was the transformer into yet another kind of love- romantic love. And by friendship love, I mean that at its deepest possible level, co-equal to romantic love, in their case. And yet concede an orderly progression in Ennis was not paralleled by an orderly progression in Jack.
Jack had twinges of romantic love already.
At any rate, you are right - we should not suppose the lack of violins and flowers In FNIT, rules out romance. They didn't know how to DO romance, yet, although it may certainly have been there. Will need aspirins if I keep trying to track this. It was fun, though, to remember what we may have forgot- Jack's first move wasn't all that radical. All he did was force some closer snugglebunny. Didn't strip down. Looked like he may even have gone back to sleep
if Ennis hadn't of reacted so violently.
So maybe there there's a missing stage here, then, the stage where there is a cherished love of the friendship itself, still platonic and not yet expressed by sex, which brings along with it the romantic notions of love. Yes, they grew to love each other as friends, companions ,but were not yet lovers. Not yet *in love*. I feel there is a difference there. Just a short space in between love of freindship and romantic love., but enough to push them over the line into sexual expression of romantic love.Whew...
Yes, they were rugged guys , but guys who were'nt above showing tenderness, a willingness to bring pleasure to each other. Ennis pleasing jack by getting soup, switching jobs, etc... jack nurturing Ennis in the bear scene praising Ennis's shooting skills etc...making each other feel worthy of love in small gestures. It's what friends who love each other do, though in this case niether would define it as that or even being concious of what it was. They just felt that each needed a friend.
I also think that the isolation of the mountain helped also. Sorrounded by it's huge majestic setting, gave them a feeling of privacy, that they were two people allowed to let flow, undisturbed , what ever feelings they chose to express. in a world of their own. Without another soul around, they were totally dependent on each other. Even if one thought they were just two horny young cowboys on the mountain who simply wanted to *experiment* with same-sex notions, the mountain would have provided the perfect setting to do that. Of course the feelings went much deeper than that but just sayin...
I don't think either was really choosing to fall in love, just a natural progession occured. Don't feel anyone can really define or put into words when or why. It's almost like being asked to define love, what is it? A feeling? sex? Small gestures of caring ? They had/did all that, but we could ask jack and Ennis to define what thet felt? we would be very hardpressed to get an answer. Friendship/companionship , the love of that friendship, sex, and then romantic love, confirmed and expressed in SNIT when they both knew whatever they felt was real.
during the confrontation scene Jack goes to embrace Ennis and Ennis pushes him away, but Jack does'nt allow him to let go.? thru his frustrated "damn you Ennis",This is a friend, a testament to what was established years and years before. After all was said and done, he was not going to let go. A true friend in love with a true friend. Sex may have been compromised, and even love may have been questioned , trust , a little eroded, but the friendship they had established on the mountain lasted. IMHO.
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The first and formost thing that happened is that they allowed themselves to be men, and respected each other as men. They was able to feel not "scrawny asses" as Aguirre dubbed them, but looked at each other with respect as men. This feeling of respect was pointed out in the ss. The friendship deepen as time went on, AintFoolin' pointed out this aspect, by all the things they did for each other. The confidence one gave to the other, the praise, being non critical when Ennis loses the food, and Jack inability to shoot anything at all.
Physical closeness was not alien thing to them anymore, they couldn't stay away from each other. Ennis was spending more time in camp, to be near Jack. Jack had Ennis talking, smiling, laughing, joking. This loner, wasn't lonely anymore. Acknowledgement of each other as men, the respect given to the other.The trust, confidence, caring, validation of the other's worth, and with that the feeling of desire? Validating their worth as loving men, capable of loving, giving love showing love. Validating the other's male sexuality, showing appreciation, and desire for it. JMo.
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Am not sure I follow this completely, as I don't see much love in FNIT. Also, we may be missing a step, or category, friendship>friendship love. So I wonder if the progression might have been for Ennis, friendship>friendship love>sex> romantic love, and for Jack, a less organized progression, mixing and matching categories. I know there doesn't have to be an organized step-by-step, but help me out, please, on the romantic feelings leading to FNIT. Am unable to see that, so far.
Hi, Tony, I did not imply that FNIT was loving, but rather, the "friendship love" that you speak of, for Ennis, is mixed up with romantic love for Jack. I think this is a very perceptive observation, that not every will interpret a situation the same way. Jack, being more open to romantic feelings towards men in general, and Ennis in particular would jump easily from filia (shoot the elk...etc) to eros (FNIT). The romantic love, I believe came later, although it started with Ennis meeting the bear and Jack took care of him and his wounds. I believe SNIT is the culmination of romantic love for both. After that night, the horse-play observed by Aquirre was the kind between lovers, not just friends.
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The first and formost thing that happened is that they allowed themselves to be men, and respected each other as men. They was able to feel not "scrawny asses" as Aguirre dubbed them, but looked at each other with respect as men. This feeling of respect was pointed out in the ss. The friendship deepen as time went on, AintFoolin' pointed out this aspect, by all the things they did for each other. The confidence one gave to the other, the praise, being non critical when Ennis loses the food, and Jack inability to shoot anything at all.
Physical closeness was not alien thing to them anymore, they couldn't stay away from each other. Ennis was spending more time in camp, to be near Jack. Jack had Ennis talking, smiling, laughing, joking. This loner, wasn't lonely anymore. Acknowledgement of each other as men, the respect given to the other.The trust, confidence, caring, validation of the other's worth, and with that the feeling of desire? Validating their worth as loving men, capable of loving, giving love showing love. Validating the other's male sexuality, showing appreciation, and desire for it. JMo.
I love this, manhattangirl. I think you hit on it 100%. From their respect for each other, validation as men, as cowboys, their love grew, first as friends, then with physical closeness, as lovers. :clap:
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Dear Thomas, - am sure some love was present before FNIT - no, certain. But am a little puzzled. Do you think sex is ALWAYS, in some way, a manifestation of love (as in the theory of libido)? Or were you saying sex CAN be a manifestation of love? Am a little grumpy there as have seen too much sexuality in our culture which is clearly, just... sexual release of tensions and needs.
I do understand the sense that, in the broadest terms, sex can convey, well, some kind of positive interest in the other person, the life-force, or libido, as opposed to the opposite, but am unsure if you think this is always the case.
Hello Tony. Thank you for asking for clarification. What I meant was that in my own perception, sex is a manifestation of love. I certainly can't claim that sex is always a sign of love. This is certainly NOT true in many many situations when sex is used for sensual gratification, and nothing more.
My percetion is based on the fact that they had developed a common friendship with each other, and such feelings certainly make it probable that their sexual yearnings were based on more than just sensual gratification.
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I think I understand what Tony is getting at, (and emphasize THINK). The suddenness of the fnit the rawness of it may throw a lot of people off it's meaning. So many people see it in different ways, and snit may seem like a "makeup" for slapping us in the face.
Many can interpet that there was no "love" in what happen to the both of them that first night. Just Jack seeing a possible sexual situation and taking advantage of it, and maybe shading our opinion of him, which sometimes I feel he was blamed for.
In Jack and Ennis's case, two men of the earth, born into a harsh and lonely life. Found each other in just that way, no hearts, no flowers, no violins playing in the background. Raw desire, and the need to be loved, like the fire, the stream, and the beans, that kept them alive. That first night might just be that manifestation of love. We think it was devoid of love, of tenderness, because we don't see it. It did something to them, because they had to be with each other again.
JMO.
I do think that there was more of sexual urgency in FNIT rather than love. But I do think that even at that point, they had developed feelings for each other that go deeper than just physical desire. IT was, granted, imperfect and incomplely understood/acknowledged. It is like the initial gropings of accidental lovers, I suppose...
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I love this, manhattangirl. I think you hit on it 100%. From their respect for each other, validation as men, as cowboys, their love grew, first as friends, then with physical closeness, as lovers. :clap:
I agree.
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I love this, manhattangirl. I think you hit on it 100%. From their respect for each other, validation as men, as cowboys, their love grew, first as friends, then with physical closeness, as lovers. :clap:
O, just to add a footnote: don't forget the isolation and whiskey helped along the feeling of friendship changing into romantic love and sex. I'm sure if this happened in Riverton or Lightning Flat, FNIT or SNIT would be very different.
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O, just to add a footnote: don't forget the isolation and whiskey helped along the feeling of friendship changing into romantic love and sex. I'm sure if this happened in Riverton or Lightning Flat, FNIT or SNIT would be very different.
Well, those 2 factors, isolation and whiskey sure didn't hurt, either in starting a friendship or, later, transforming things. Am always struck, though, by how these two guys were almost designed for each other, and at the same time, how credible the developments were.
I also notice we probably fell for them, for the same reasons they fell for each other. Maybe we had our own progression, the first time we watched the movie, from considering them acceptable friends, to (for some) objects of at least light sexual interest, to our own romantic love for them. Maybe the activating factors were even the same:
- we didn't see any malice in either of them. This is so very important because in our own real world, we are always having to look over our shoulders against people who have an ugly streak. And it would have been the same for them.
-we didn't feel threatened by them ---they had no agenda that would cause us to bristle or rub our fur the wrong way, and that was operative for them, too, particularly since, in the SS, Annie has them having conversations early on, where they showed nothing cantankerous and respected each others point of view
-we did see faults, or imperfections, but these were non-threatening and fleshed out their humanity, and the same occurred with them.
We could have been friends, then, up to a point, with either one, or both. But Ennis, in particular, IMO, was near to empty, as far as anything to his life. He wasn't a dreamer, like Jack, nor very lively. He was just limping along when that freight train, Jack, hit. So the friendship love went into the sacred zone for him, and we hadn't caught up to this when the explosion of FNIT occurred, which may be why we were staggered at the suddenness.
Might even say that, like the shirts, FNIT redefined everything seen before. Ennis looking off at Jack on the mare with the low startle point. Almost drinking in....something, thoughtfully. Jack watching Ennis at night, off in the distance, with the sheep. Every smile seen, interpreted in a new way. And we saw it, but hadn't caught up to what it meant. And neither did they, to any fullness. New territory, friendship love, for two men basically rejected by most of the surrounding world. The sex forced a confrontation (and Jack wanted that), and then, compromised, admission or ratification.
The romantic love? Looks to me like it was far more difficult territory than the previous 2 stages, and clearly more dangerous (you can adjust to a sacred friendship, and even a sexual fling, occurring at so young of an age), but you damn sure don't know what to do with the impossible- heartfelt, enduring, soul-meeting, romantic love. So they kept being nibbled at by that force that would not go away.
Am I going too far? Their real troubles were never over the intensely ratifying friendship love. And, whatever the practical, real-world troubles inherent in the sexual relationship, they, uh, still did it, even if always under the suffocating environment of homophobia. The sex worked. But the final stage...romantic love, was the obstacle. It was to prove to be the most powerful force of all, and there they could find no resolution.
I'll go ahead and say it. Ennis' fears of being discovered, and his so-called repressed sexuality, were real, yes, but he used them to avoid confrontation with that third stage he couldn't handle: romantic love.
And off, to the side...remember Aguirre? He adjusted to the sex he'd witnessed, grumped, and accepted it. He would NEVER have accepted any romantic, eternal love as possible. Ennis had trouble concealing just that....the final stage. And he used the sexual issues, IMO, as a cover.
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That post I did was wordy, and ended with a viewpoint easily rejected by most. To abbreviate, I do accept the Earl & Rich story as affecting Ennis, and do see the rural homophobia issue. Am saying....he played it. His primary struggle was not, IMO, about the sexual issues. He'd come to terms with them and could have found a way to resolve the need for hooking up with Jack on a ranch. Jack sensed this (after all, he'd slept with Ennis enough to know Ennis had resolved a lot of fears there) and so kept waiting.
Ennis was past most of that. It was the final stage, full romantic love, that was there, but, resolving that was the real wall he couldn't get over. The other 2 stages were known to exist. The third, he'd seen no evidence of anywhere, in that little world they lived in.
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That post I did was wordy, and ended with a viewpoint easily rejected by most. To abbreviate, I do accept the Earl & Rich story as affecting Ennis, and do see the rural homophobia issue. Am saying....he played it. His primary struggle was not, IMO, about the sexual issues. He'd come to terms with them and could have found a way to resolve the need for hooking up with Jack on a ranch. Jack sensed this (after all, he'd slept with Ennis enough to know Ennis had resolved a lot of fears there) and so kept waiting.
Ennis was past most of that. It was the final stage, full romantic love, that was there, but, resolving that was the real wall he couldn't get over. The other 2 stages were known to exist. The third, he'd seen no evidence of anywhere, in that little world they lived in.
Wordy or not, Tony, I love what you said about their friendship grew early, out of respect for each other, and a lack of malice. I agree 100%, and would add also that their friendship grew out of the common experience, working together. It's why buddies in war and on ships become life long friends. As you said, somethings sacred is formed in that bond.
I am with you concerning Ennis' inability to take the last step towards romantic love. I don't agree however, with respect to his fear, or playing, etc. I think his lonesome personality is simply incapable, unable to know what true love is. He sensed it with Jack for twenty years, and had no reins, did not understand, thinking it was just guys having fun. It was only when he saw Cassie's expression, and her statement, "Girls don't fall in love with fun." that he realized it was love, not sex, not just fun friendship, or even sacred friendship. It was deep soul connecting love. That's when he sent that postcard that got returned. :\'(
To the man who never truly experienced being loved, in childhood, or even with Alma, he simply did not recognize true love when it was knocking on his fortress gate.
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That post I did was wordy, and ended with a viewpoint easily rejected by most. To abbreviate, I do accept the Earl & Rich story as affecting Ennis, and do see the rural homophobia issue. Am saying....he played it. His primary struggle was not, IMO, about the sexual issues. He'd come to terms with them and could have found a way to resolve the need for hooking up with Jack on a ranch. Jack sensed this (after all, he'd slept with Ennis enough to know Ennis had resolved a lot of fears there) and so kept waiting.
Ennis was past most of that. It was the final stage, full romantic love, that was there, but, resolving that was the real wall he couldn't get over. The other 2 stages were known to exist. The third, he'd seen no evidence of anywhere, in that little world they lived in.
What Tony is saying I wholeheartedly agree. Ennis got past the idea of loving another man, (in my mind) when he was standing in Alma's kitchen. He defended Jack, and in his way their love affair. Now Ennis problem was Jack, and feelings for him, he doubts that Jack loved him in return, and the doubts that they could live together in peace, so Brokeback Mountain to Ennis was the only place they could. I've wondered why he tacked that postcard of Brokeback next to the shirts. Like that cow and calf operation Jack dreamt of, Brokeback was that place for Ennis.
Did I get it Tony?
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Dear Andrew - one of the neatest things about the interplay on this forum, is that it has caused insights, that hold up, that were not seen 2 years ago, and therefore greatly expand the appreciation of this film, in later viewings. I would want to make a list, but would greatly fear omitting someone.
Even so, 2 of yours have been: 1) the ratification given to Ennis' love by Jack's Mom, which is extremely important, and
2) the theory that Ennis didn't understand the definition of what was hitting him until he heard Cassie's words in
the diner, which, IMO, is holding up
So, in mentioning that 2nd major insight on your part, it was entirely relevant to this topic and how each category played its role. You are right - Ennis couldn't understand or face up to the 3rd stage, romantic love, until that confrontation. Many thanks. Tony.
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Hi- Manhattangirl - our posts got crossed. Yes, I do think the fight with Alma was the point where he took his stand, and would not back down, but still have to say this was a prelude to understanding just what he was defending. Which he finally understood in the diner. Interesting, that a confrontation, with the 2 women in his life, forced him ever nearer to understanding what Jack really meant to him. That point of yours needs to be tied to Andrew's. The first, defending something, just what he didn't know. The second, knowing.
At any rate, your last post has to be added to the list, that list of insights which makes a later viewing of the film richer and more powerful. Yes, oh wow,
yes, when he stood up to Alma, however defensive and convoluted that was, he was, for the first time, standing up to any part of the world outside of himself and Jack. And further, it's strange, isn't it, that it was WOMEN he had to work this out with, isn't it? Defending the relationship with Alma. Understanding it, finally, with Cassie in the diner. And then, as Andrew has pointed out, accepting the quiet support, blessing, and understanding from yet a third woman....Jack's mom. You ladies do get around in our lives, don't you?
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I'll go ahead and say it. Ennis' fears of being discovered, and his so-called repressed sexuality, were real, yes, but he used them to avoid confrontation with that third stage he couldn't handle: romantic love.
And off, to the side...remember Aguirre? He adjusted to the sex he'd witnessed, grumped, and accepted it. He would NEVER have accepted any romantic, eternal love as possible. Ennis had trouble concealing just that....the final stage. And he used the sexual issues, IMO, as a cover.
I don't know, Tony. I see your point and admit that it can't be ruled out, certainly. But I don't know if Ennis was that calculating. For me, his repressed sexuality and fears of being found out seemed to have dictated a lot of his decisions which later proved difficult to reverse -- the marriage with Alma, in particular.
It is true that Jack embodies more of romantic love than Ennis did, but I don't know if he is incapable or even immune to it. For me, his love for Jack was in an abstracted, perhaps idealized manner -- done sparingly up in the mountatins, away from the madding crowd, so to speak. To have decided to live with Jack would have been the prosaic, down-to-earth alternative. So it would seem to me that Ennis' fault has more to do with his inability to translate that "romantic" love into something more concrete, like a commitment, or a desire to make it integral to his life as a whole, and not just an escape.
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Dear Thomas- I think I understand your post, and I do agree that Ennis didn't fall into the category of "calculating". I meant he used the other issues (Earl and Rich, etc.) sub-consciously, because he couldn't get to that understanding of himself as in love, romantically.
Am prone to this kind of wondering (and maybe I should retreat from assertion to wondering) because of the unusual background I have, which colors my take on BBM. I grew up in a ratty neighborhood with about 40 guys and hardly any females. I live in a city with 40,000 extra men. And regardless of whether Ennis WAS gay or not (different topic), he defined himself as straight.
And what I saw, in my past, was a whole lot of friendship loves (no sex) and, yeah, a whole lot of boinging going on between supposedly straight guys. This defies everybody else's experience and is harrumped at by both gays and straights as....not convenient for their formulas. But, more importantly, I DID notice the last barrier, almost never crossed, no- I'd say NEVER crossed, was...kissing, which implies romantic love. Decades later, I still stumble across old buddies who, it turned out, were part of that mess. And they all flipped it off and got on with their lives.
Returning then, to Ennis. He defined himself as straight. I do know of friendship loves, no sex, that haunted some of my friends, they ran so deep.
But Ennis had gone past friendship love, adapted even to same gender sex (and rather handily, I might add), but he had kissed Jack, held him, nestled with him, stroked him tenderly, year after year after year. And so, given what I have seen (which, granted, is unusual), I do not find it strange that his having broken the final barrier, kissing, and gone into romantic love, was the central torment and confusion, not sex. He'd made his peace with the sex long, long before.
In that context, then, I wonder if he didn't push the Earl and Rich story and the surrounding environment, when he may have already been past that.
Aintfoolin once said there was no problem there that couldn't be solved by a shotgun and a few Rottweilers, and I think Ennis was as smart as Aintfoolin. So I don't assert this, but I do wonder about it. Whether he'd resolved the conflict with society, but not with the re-definition of himself required for admitting romantic love. The re-definition Andrew suggests began in that diner with Cassie, and then prevailed, with Jack's Mom, during the visit to Lightning Flat. I've wobbled back, from asserting, to wondering, Thomas, as I always try to see your point in leaving some room there, or on any other subject, for a better understanding.
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I don't know, Tony. I see your point and admit that it can't be ruled out, certainly. But I don't know if Ennis was that calculating. For me, his repressed sexuality and fears of being found out seemed to have dictated a lot of his decisions which later proved difficult to reverse -- the marriage with Alma, in particular.
It is true that Jack embodies more of romantic love than Ennis did, but I don't know if he is incapable or even immune to it. For me, his love for Jack was in an abstracted, perhaps idealized manner -- done sparingly up in the mountatins, away from the madding crowd, so to speak. To have decided to live with Jack would have been the prosaic, down-to-earth alternative. So it would seem to me that Ennis' fault has more to do with his inability to translate that "romantic" love into something more concrete, like a commitment, or a desire to make it integral to his life as a whole, and not just an escape.
I agree with both points. I don't think he was calculating in the sense in thinking, * If I take this action, then this will be the results etc. ... don't really feel he thought this way, just went with the flow, but he could compartmentalize alot. We were'nt privy to his *courting* of Alma, or how he came to be engaged to her before he metJack or who actually proposed to who during that relationship, but we did see a kind of *courting* of Jack on the mountain, reserved and subtle, but, vintage Ennis.
As Jack drew Ennis out, Ennis drew Jack in. Your right, tpe, Jack embodied more of *romantic love*, and whatever he read into Ennis during their *courtship* on the Mountain involved that. He showed an openess and acceptance of it easier than Ennis, but Ennis knew and was very aware of which relationship he could be more open with to society and which one he had to conceal.
He could seperate the two relationships ,Alma, and Jack very clearly in his mind. The problem was not that he did'nt feel romantic love, just had problems showing it. He was stoic and a loner, but human. Not some emotionless robot without feelings or heart. Yes, he could go with Alma to a church social or Cassie to a bar and dance, but in those social situations, he was still lonesome, and uncomfortable. You'll never hear him say " lets go to a dance" or anywhere else that involved socializing, but he was'nt immune as you say to romantic love without really being concious of that fact, he felt it towards Jack.
Yes, he liked doing it with women, but it's obvious who was the object of his desire when he "wrung it out" hundreds of times. Jack, not Alma. ...and that's alot of *wringing*. I feel the sex with Jack and romantic notion of love went hand in hand for Ennis, no different from "straight" romances. Sex is not seperate from romantic love , but merely a personal expression of romantic love, but it varies from one individual to another in their minds what is considered love and the state of being *in love*. Roles come into play, how one sees themself in relation to the other. One may have love for a friend and even have sex with them, but that does'nt mean one knows or recognizes it as being "in love" .
Jack and Ennis fell "in love" and that real true love was tested thru yrs of obstacles ( their's were huge) , braved the storms of rejection, fear and intolerence from within and from without, and still survived. To me , that is the standard by which love is proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt. The confrontation scene, a passionate fight , not to break up, but to hold on.
Romantic love with Ennis, I feel is shown clearly during the reunion scene by the river where he's smiling, sending up a prayer of thanks to the heavens above that jack had retuned to his life , he was so relieved and relaxed and not a whiskey bottle in sight, but as soon as Jack suggested ranching up together, his demeanor changed totally. Fear, once again enters the picture. The best he can offer Jack is every once in a while , out in the middle of nowhere, but he did go on to say that his love for Jack, in so many words, was the one love he could not pull the reins in on. Certainly he still had problems with it but to Jack, this was Ennis being romantic and showing romantic love for him ...as best as he knew how anyway, Really, had he taken a moment , and stopped being so dismissive( no way?) and fearful,, he'd have realized that Jack was giving him something to work with, maybe not perfection, but alot more than he had with his " life in Riverton". After four yrs, he knew the comparison is crystal clear where his sense of "romantic" love lies. Ennis stated , in so many words, finally that he can't help the feelings he had for him and only him. It showed the contrast between being "stuck with what I got, due to a mistake," in one relationship, ( Alma) and "no reins on love in the other. Stayed devoted to that romantic love for Jack by showing up to meet Jack and expressing that love through sex for 20 yrs. it was clear he had a deep *romantic love* for Jack that he did'nt have for Alma, or Cassie.Maybe jack could 'nt get Ennis to the point of living with him, opening the door of this "fortress" which is Ennis Del Mar, all the way, but that does'nt lessen the fact that Ennis loved and needed him in everyway possible. Though it was frustrating, I feel Jack knew this and took whatever he could get, which was more than either of them thought possible. My take, Thanx.
Tony, our posts will cross as I'm getting the *red-lined " review your post thingy, but here goes....Shot guns and Rottweilers can be be a wonderful thing when your life and love is being threatend, and who says Ennis and Jack don't have the right to defend themselves ....
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I don't know, Tony. I see your point and admit that it can't be ruled out, certainly. But I don't know if Ennis was that calculating. For me, his repressed sexuality and fears of being found out seemed to have dictated a lot of his decisions which later proved difficult to reverse -- the marriage with Alma, in particular.
It is true that Jack embodies more of romantic love than Ennis did, but I don't know if he is incapable or even immune to it. For me, his love for Jack was in an abstracted, perhaps idealized manner -- done sparingly up in the mountatins, away from the madding crowd, so to speak. To have decided to live with Jack would have been the prosaic, down-to-earth alternative. So it would seem to me that Ennis' fault has more to do with his inability to translate that "romantic" love into something more concrete, like a commitment, or a desire to make it integral to his life as a whole, and not just an escape.
I tend to agree to some extent. Romantic is what Ennis felt, its what he showed Jack, but in the confines of the Mountain. I've wondered why he tacked the picture of Brokeback next to the shirts, I feel that it was the only place, in Ennis's mind where his love could exist. He gave it freely to Jack on the mountain. To speak of going beyond the mountain, was inconceivable to him, an impossibility that he couldn't, wouldn't consider.
Brokeback Mountain was Ennis's shelter, like his mother's arms and her singing to him. Jack look at Brokeback as place that stood between him and the "sweet life". Everything they had was built on that Mountain. But where in the end Jack had to concede, (once again), is where he was happy, and wanted his ashes spread there, he knew it would be one place that Ennis would return to. Thats where Ennis would love him totally, freely with no fear of it, or anything else.
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Dear Thomas- I think I understand your post, and I do agree that Ennis didn't fall into the category of "calculating". I meant he used the other issues (Earl and Rich, etc.) sub-consciously, because he couldn't get to that understanding of himself as in love, romantically.
Am prone to this kind of wondering (and maybe I should retreat from assertion to wondering) because of the unusual background I have, which colors my take on BBM. I grew up in a ratty neighborhood with about 40 guys and hardly any females. I live in a city with 40,000 extra men. And regardless of whether Ennis WAS gay or not (different topic), he defined himself as straight.
And what I saw, in my past, was a whole lot of friendship loves (no sex) and, yeah, a whole lot of boinging going on between supposedly straight guys. This defies everybody else's experience and is harrumped at by both gays and straights as....not convenient for their formulas. But, more importantly, I DID notice the last barrier, almost never crossed, no- I'd say NEVER crossed, was...kissing, which implies romantic love. Decades later, I still stumble across old buddies who, it turned out, were part of that mess. And they all flipped it off and got on with their lives.
Returning then, to Ennis. He defined himself as straight. I do know of friendship loves, no sex, that haunted some of my friends, they ran so deep.
But Ennis had gone past friendship love, adapted even to same gender sex (and rather handily, I might add), but he had kissed Jack, held him, nestled with him, stroked him tenderly, year after year after year. And so, given what I have seen (which, granted, is unusual), I do not find it strange that his having broken the final barrier, kissing, and gone into romantic love, was the central torment and confusion, not sex. He'd made his peace with the sex long, long before.
In that context, then, I wonder if he didn't push the Earl and Rich story and the surrounding environment, when he may have already been past that.
Aintfoolin once said there was no problem there that couldn't be solved by a shotgun and a few Rottweilers, and I think Ennis was as smart as Aintfoolin. So I don't assert this, but I do wonder about it. Whether he'd resolved the conflict with society, but not with the re-definition of himself required for admitting romantic love. The re-definition Andrew suggests began in that diner with Cassie, and then prevailed, with Jack's Mom, during the visit to Lightning Flat. I've wobbled back, from asserting, to wondering, Thomas, as I always try to see your point in leaving some room there, or on any other subject, for a better understanding.
I see what you mean then: if he had gone that far, then why didn't he go the extra mile? I agree that it was probably subconscious. But I do think his fears were more of a concern when it came to live their love more openly, instead of just nurturing it in the middle of nowhere.
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I agree with both points. I don't think he was calculating in the sense in thinking, * If I take this action, then this will be the results etc. ... don't really feel he thought this way, just went with the flow, but he could compartmentalize alot. We were'nt privy to his *courting* of Alma, or how he came to be engaged to her before he metJack or who actually proposed to who during that relationship, but we did see a kind of *courting* of Jack on the mountain, reserved and subtle, but, vintage Ennis.
As Jack drew Ennis out, Ennis drew Jack in. Your right, tpe, Jack embodied more of *romantic love*, and whatever he read into Ennis during their *courtship* on the Mountain involved that. He showed an openess and acceptance of it easier than Ennis, but Ennis knew and was very aware of which relationship he could be more open with to society and which one he had to conceal.
He could seperate the two relationships ,Alma, and Jack very clearly in his mind. The problem was not that he did'nt feel romantic love, just had problems showing it. He was stoic and a loner, but human. Not some emotionless robot without feelings or heart. Yes, he could go with Alma to a church social or Cassie to a bar and dance, but in those social situations, he was still lonesome, and uncomfortable. You'll never hear him say " lets go to a dance" or anywhere else that involved socializing, but he was'nt immune as you say to romantic love without really being concious of that fact, he felt it towards Jack.
Yes, he liked doing it with women, but it's obvious who was the object of his desire when he "wrung it out" hundreds of times. Jack, not Alma. ...and that's alot of *wringing*. I feel the sex with Jack and romantic notion of love went hand in hand for Ennis, no different from "straight" romances. Sex is not seperate from romantic love , but merely a personal expression of romantic love, but it varies from one individual to another in their minds what is considered love and the state of being *in love*. Roles come into play, how one sees themself in relation to the other. One may have love for a friend and even have sex with them, but that does'nt mean one knows or recognizes it as being "in love" .
Jack and Ennis fell "in love" and that real true love was tested thru yrs of obstacles ( their's were huge) , braved the storms of rejection, fear and intolerence from within and from without, and still survived. To me , that is the standard by which love is proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt. The confrontation scene, a passionate fight , not to break up, but to hold on.
Romantic love with Ennis, I feel is shown clearly during the reunion scene by the river where he's smiling, sending up a prayer of thanks to the heavens above that jack had retuned to his life , he was so relieved and relaxed and not a whiskey bottle in sight, but as soon as Jack suggested ranching up together, his demeanor changed totally. Fear, once again enters the picture. The best he can offer Jack is every once in a while , out in the middle of nowhere, but he did go on to say that his love for Jack, in so many words, was the one love he could not pull the reins in on. Certainly he still had problems with it but to Jack, this was Ennis being romantic and showing romantic love for him ...as best as he knew how anyway, Really, had he taken a moment , and stopped being so dismissive( no way?) and fearful,, he'd have realized that Jack was giving him something to work with, maybe not perfection, but alot more than he had with his " life in Riverton". After four yrs, he knew the comparison is crystal clear where his sense of "romantic" love lies. Ennis stated , in so many words, finally that he can't help the feelings he had for him and only him. It showed the contrast between being "stuck with what I got, due to a mistake," in one relationship, ( Alma) and "no reins on love in the other. Stayed devoted to that romantic love for Jack by showing up to meet Jack and expressing that love through sex for 20 yrs. it was clear he had a deep *romantic love* for Jack that he did'nt have for Alma, or Cassie.Maybe jack could 'nt get Ennis to the point of living with him, opening the door of this "fortress" which is Ennis Del Mar, all the way, but that does'nt lessen the fact that Ennis loved and needed him in everyway possible. Though it was frustrating, I feel Jack knew this and took whatever he could get, which was more than either of them thought possible. My take, Thanx.
Tony, our posts will cross as I'm getting the *red-lined " review your post thingy, but here goes....Shot guns and Rottweilers can be be a wonderful thing when your life and love is being threatend, and who says Ennis and Jack don't have the right to defend themselves ....
I do agree that for me, Ennis's love for Jack was a romantic love -- something seemingly unatainable in the real world, but something uniquely their own up in the Mountain. In some ways, perhaps Ennis felt that he didn't need to show it.
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I tend to agree to some extent. Romantic is what Ennis felt, its what he showed Jack, but in the confines of the Mountain. I've wondered why he tacked the picture of Brokeback next to the shirts, I feel that it was the only place, in Ennis's mind where his love could exist. He gave it freely to Jack on the mountain. To speak of going beyond the mountain, was inconceivable to him, an impossibility that he couldn't, wouldn't consider.
Brokeback Mountain was Ennis's shelter, like his mother's arms and her singing to him. Jack look at Brokeback as place that stood between him and the "sweet life". Everything they had was built on that Mountain. But where in the end Jack had to concede, (once again), is where he was happy, and wanted his ashes spread there, he knew it would be one place that Ennis would return to. Thats where Ennis would love him totally, freely with no fear of it, or anything else.
Perfect, MG. This is so close to what I had in mind or what I had been trying to say.
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Everything they had was built on that Mountain. But where in the end Jack had to concede, (once again), is where he was happy, and wanted his ashes spread there, he knew it would be one place that Ennis would return to. Thats where Ennis would love him totally, freely with no fear of it, or anything else.
All this time, I had forgotten, mostly, Jack's asking for his ashes to be spread on that mountain. I guess it was overshadowed by the shirts, and so I didn't let it sink in. But, in some ways, the request was more powerful than the shirts, as Jack was defining his life by where he wanted his ashes to go.
Thanks for reminding me, MG.
Meanwhile, although Ennis seemed to be having trouble with ratifying romantic love, which would force him to re-define himself, we might have over-done it just slightly, by seeing Jack as totally free of this problem. He sure was far more open, and adjusted, than Ennis, but maybe he, too, feared the implications of romantic love. Just as I've wondered if Ennis' wasn't hiding behind the Earl & Rich story, I wonder if Jack wasn't hiding behind the complaints they weren't working as companions (a ranch together), or having enough sex. Again, he was way far ahead of Ennis, but that doesn't mean he was completely liberated.
The Jack hearing Randall's come-on, outside the Moose lodge, was not a man who registered things quickly as to their full implications.
Jack was hungering for a full movement into a romantic love relationship, but just like Ennis, he didn't really have any role models or projections as to how that would fully unfold. "Hi, honey, I'm home from the round-up", wasn't, IMO, there for either of them.
They had become fluent in the language of friendship love, and the language of sexual expression, but neither seemed to find the grammar book easy for romantic love and were only able to convey that level of communication on rare events.
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I tend to agree to some extent. Romantic is what Ennis felt, its what he showed Jack, but in the confines of the Mountain. I've wondered why he tacked the picture of Brokeback next to the shirts, I feel that it was the only place, in Ennis's mind where his love could exist. He gave it freely to Jack on the mountain. To speak of going beyond the mountain, was inconceivable to him, an impossibility that he couldn't, wouldn't consider.
Brokeback Mountain was Ennis's shelter, like his mother's arms and her singing to him. Jack look at Brokeback as place that stood between him and the "sweet life". Everything they had was built on that Mountain. But where in the end Jack had to concede, (once again), is where he was happy, and wanted his ashes spread there, he knew it would be one place that Ennis would return to. Thats where Ennis would love him totally, freely with no fear of it, or anything else.
I was going to highlight on a few places, then realized the entire post is precious, manhattangirl.
Ennis definitely loved more freely on Brokeback Mountain compared to anywhere else. Jack was happy with that at first, but then got tired of "never enough" and said, "All we've got is Brokeback Mountain..." To Ennis, that was like saying heaven was all we've got. He felt hurt and dejected by this. Because his sense of love from Jack stems from their sharing a piece of heaven on earth.
I never thought about the significance of Jack's wish to have his ashes scattered on Brokeback Mountain. It makes sense that it is a concession to Ennis, that their relationship on Brokehback Mountain is his best memories and eternal.
I think Ennis tacked the picture of Brokeback Mountain on the door because he swears to Jack that he can and will carry out Jack's last wish. I think both motivations are present, not just one, or perhaps both stem from the same love for Jack.
Sorry if this is a bit scrambled but it was late and I was dozing as I typed. :P
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Am very glad when someone picks up on something I missed, that enhances the meanings of different parts of the movie. So, was grateful to be reminded by MG of the fact Jack wanted his ashes forever on Brokeback Mountain.
I have to confess that I haven't seen the movie again, in over 7 months, because I wasn't up to the emotional impact, but when next I do, there's going to be so much more to many scenes, thanks to what I have read on this forum. But now, Andrew has me zeroed in on the scene in the diner, with Cassie. Am hoping I'm not mistaken, but that, as best as I can recall, followed their last meeting, which had produced a melt-down.
Ennis was more miserable, there, IMO, than at any other time we see him, including the shirts scene (where there was off-setting, bittersweet understanding). Andrew has it, and am in complete agreement, that there was the point Ennis was confronting the fact that "this thing, that comes over us..." wasn't sex, but love. But that would be AFTER the moody conversation with Cassie. What was he thinking about BEFORE?
I don't think am over-doing this -- it really does look to me that Ennis was totally miserable, and even shell-shocked. If this is true, could we then move away from the standard take, that Ennis would never change? If it was as bad as it looked to me, he was hurting so much, Jack's complaints were very much on his mind. I hope I haven't screwed up, in where the scene occurs. But if it is as I recall, IMO, he was so miserable, he WOULD move to the territory Jack wanted - romantic love and commitment.
We have strong storms moving towards where I live, so, as usual, may lose the internet, but will get back later to see if anyone agrees.
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Wow, Tony. I am so glad you are leading this discussion, because the questions are so great. What WAS Ennis thinking when Cassie walked in with Carl?
Let's see:
1. As you said, he just broke up with Jack after the last meeting.
2. He just broke off with Cassie, not with so many words, but by typically Ennis-fashion, not returning her calls, and notes.
3. Sitting there by himself, as usual, eating contently apple pie, probably just had beans.
I conjecture that Ennis was not so much miserable at that point. I think he was more miserable just before meeting Cassie...sitting at the bar, drinking beer after beer... He was brooding at that point. At the diner, I think he was resigned...
Ennis was through with love...he was content with loneliness. He was through with Jack and Brokeback Mountain. He was through with Cassie and fitting in. He was through with Alma and pretending. He was going back to his old lonesome self, the one he knew so well. The one he feels most natural and comfortable with, since childhood.
Cassie with her usual emotional expressions, tears and all...woke up Ennis to the fact that sooner or later, he will have to face up to the joy he would be missing...girls don't fall in love with fun. It wasn't just the fun that he and Jack shared, but something more... And once this was reminded, he knew that it wasn't over between him and Jack. So he sent the postcard for the November meet.
Just my speculation here, that Ennis was thinking as he sat there enjoying his apple pie, that he didn't need nobody, when he had nobody...and he was about to close-up Fortress Ennis, perhaps forever. But destiny sent an angel in disguise, and blew up Fort Ennis...
JMHO
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For me it was all there in embryo right from the first few moments outside Aguirre's trailer, the sort of situation where interest is aroused and attraction dimly felt. The rest is immanent (in the pantheistic sense), though not understood be Ennis and maybe only perceived by Jack. Love perhaps comes at once in the coup de foudre but isn't expressed or maybe even isn;t acknowledged at first.
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For me it was all there in embryo right from the first few moments outside Aguirre's trailer, the sort of situation where interest is aroused and attraction dimly felt. or maybe even isn;t acknowledged at first.
Dear Welshwitch - that is, it seems to me, exactly how the movie starts: they do have immediate interest, Jack, very much so, Ennis, registering but in denial. Which brings to mind the question, can a person have an idealized projection of just who they WOULD be interested in? We do know Jack wanted that rugged, but non-abusive, love-needy, shy cowboy, as that shows up in his life-story. Ennis' body language was dead-on bullseye. His reaction to Jack was one of thousands that were possible, but one that certainly fit the outlines of what Jack needed. There was much to that body-language. And I really loved Jack's apparent response: "I got a line on you, dude. You brushed me off....we'll just see about that...." Almost a little smug, as he shaved himself in the truck, certain, already, he was what Ennis needed. At that point, perhaps, a friend.
For Ennis, could his idealized projection be: someone somewhat lively (or, alive, as Ennis was near dead from emptiness), someone non-threatening, someone free of the cowboy "pose" of quiet disinterest, and someone who showed warmth and interest in him?
Or, putting this another way, did they know what they were looking for (or maybe just needed, with no active sense of looking to find)? I wouldn't say love at first sight, but I would say recognition at first sight, of the Other, the one needed. And for Ennis, the one he could feel, at long last, comfortable with (I do see Ennis as uncomfortable with just about everyone else in his life, to some degree). And for Jack, the rugged male who would not judge him or hurt him, as did his father.
There is enough in the body language outside Aguirre's trailer to signal - some nerve had been struck in each one, that was waiting for that to possibly happen.
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Dear Andrew - Am glad you liked the question I asked, but, please be sure, am not leading the discussion. Besides being too disorganized for that, I much prefer to react to the thinking of others. Whenever I start a thread, I do like to nurse it along for a brief while, and then let it continue or die off depending on the interest of the other Brokies. Thinking back, I don't remember ever leading, but rather, reacting, and....occasionally going off to Finland. At any rate, as I said, if others don't take the lead, I prefer a thread I started just die off naturally, which is normal for any thread.
Well, then, to your answer to the question of what Ennis was thinking before Cassie came in. Please remember, I've thought your focus on these scenes, and your conclusions about Cassie transforming his thinking, were brave new territory and absolutely on target.
But your take on his thinking before, that he was retreating into Fortress Ennis, although easily supported, isn't so easy for me (which is OK, as disagreement can be the spice to a great soup). I really remember those scenes as his being miserable...in a constructive way. Meaning, he wasn't retreating, he was, instead, miserable about how to move forward. Jack had sort of given him notice- things weren't working out. Ennis clearly was taking this seriously, and was miserable because he was paralyzed as to what to do.
Your insight that Cassie led the way, however, holds up for either version. Because he needed to know the definition of love, and that was what you pointed out as her pivotal role, in giving that definition.
We're only slightly differing. I see him as more miserable because he knew he had to do something but didn't know what or how. You see him as in
retreat, into that fortress, released by the run-in with Cassie. Either way, I think he was willing to make some changes.....
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[...] We're only slightly differing. I see him as more miserable because he knew he had to do something but didn't know what or how. You see him as in
retreat, into that fortress, released by the run-in with Cassie. Either way, I think he was willing to make some changes.....
Perhaps my wording of "leading" was incorrect. I meant it not in the sense of "in-charge" but in the sense of asking questions that lead us into new territories.
I agree with you that Ennis was miserable at the diner, and also in the bar when Cassie jumped on him. The two bookends of their first and last meeting...Ennis miserable and lonely. I pointed out Ennis' retreat into Fortress Ennis not because that is what he wants to do, but it is what he knows how to do. This is the man who says, "If you can't fix it, then you gotta stand it." The man is accustomed to living a lonely life, although it would be the first time without Jack. But it would be the same as those many months between their infrequent meetings. Ennis can stand it, if he had to. Jack...never. I am grateful for Jackster's Willie Nelson's song lyrics...Ennis is the lonesome cowboy who is alone even with the ones he love.
I love what you said about their first meeting. Ennis is certainly interested in Jack, not necessarily in a sexual sense, and even then, it can be a number of many different ways, not necessarily the roll in the hay kind. Jack's attitude, as you pointed out, is remarkable and quite an eye opener for me. What you describe implies total conscious awareness of his own sexual attraction AND forethought of planning the subsequent events. I am not certain that is what was intended by Annie Proulx, or Ang Lee. However, I can see that can be what Jake interpreted, or Heath suggested, as Heath was also photographed in that pose. So it may be that Heath suggested this, and was adopted by Ang Lee as part of the story. It would make sense of a lot of the loose ends, i.e. FNIT, etc. It is exactly the kind of pose that Heath was good at, speaking volumes of emotional subtext with the minimum of body language.
I see Jack being the guy who wants to spotlight, and Ennis admired that. It is the seed of their friendship. Jack needed Ennis' admiration and attention. Ennis was willing to give it, as long as Jack was willing to respect Ennis as the better cowboy. "My daddy thought all rodeo cowboys are a bunch of f#$%ups...I tell you what...I think my daddy was right." Even jokingly, Ennis knew that Jack was all show, but he was the better cowboy.
Whether or not there was sexual tension in Ennis on that first day...is the question that...well...only Ennis can answer. I don't see it myself, but I am not that good at reading sexual signals. ::) :i
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Can I butt in guys. Ennis was a loner, he was that all his life, except with Jack. Now the scene after the final confrontation, when Ennis was in the diner, to looked to me as if he was fading away. He gestures alone was a sign of man making effort at living, even eating that piece of pie was looked hard for him to do.
He was nothing without Jack, and maybe Cassie was a wake up call, that loving was about staying alive. I don't think this made Ennis a "people person", but it might have made him more receptive to the idea that love was part of living.
JMO
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Now the scene after the final confrontation, when Ennis was in the diner, to looked to me as if he was fading away. He gestures alone was a sign of man making effort at living, even eating that piece of pie was looked hard for him to do.
Manhattangirl, those words, "fading away", were the words I felt but could not find. But there seem to be just slight, very slight differences in what that meant. I fully agree, with you and Andrew, he was confronting the fact "this thing.." had a name: love, and that he could not be happy without Jack.
But either it is because I want to see it, or because it is there, that fading away could well mean the dying of the old Ennis (no place left to go), and the levelling off of room for a new Ennis, someone who had no other choice but to eventually change, in order to keep Jack. Change, for Ennis, would be fearful and depressing, but I think he saw that lay somewhere past the death of all his stubborn ways.
Yeah, he's fading away, and very depressed. No, I don't see that ending in retreat, unto himself. All hinged on the next meeting. Until then, the process was dying, then stabilizing, and then, as the next meeting approached, re-birth. He just had to die a little, first, and that terrible process, IMO, was what we are seeing. I do not see him staying in that stage, nor re-uniting with Jack without some concessions. He loved Jack so much, though, some part of himself had to give way, or, if you will, fade away. And that was painful.
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Can I butt in guys. Ennis was a loner, he was that all his life, except with Jack. Now the scene after the final confrontation, when Ennis was in the diner, to looked to me as if he was fading away. He gestures alone was a sign of man making effort at living, even eating that piece of pie was looked hard for him to do.
He was nothing without Jack, and maybe Cassie was a wake up call, that loving was about staying alive. I don't think this made Ennis a "people person", but it might have made him more receptive to the idea that love was part of living.
JMO
You never butt in manhattangirl. You zero in with laser-guided precision surgical strikes. I have to watch the scene again to debate the subtly of whether Ennis is fading away or shutting himself up or being miserable finding a way to get back with Jack. I haven't seen this for a while, and there may be more to it that I realized.
However, having said that, I agree totally about Cassie being a wake up call to the guy ready to shut out the world, or perhaps, the guy not aware that there is a whole fascinating world outside of the handle around the coffee pot. I love and concur with "love was part of living". In fact, I will go you one more than that, "loving is living." I think that's why we can sense the similarity between Cassie and Jack, they are both filled with love for Ennis, and alive with their love of living. Ennis is a lucky guy and didn't even know it. Fear can make a man dumb and blind.
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You never butt in manhattangirl. You zero in with laser-guided precision surgical strikes. I have to watch the scene again to debate the subtly of whether Ennis is fading away or shutting himself up or being miserable finding a way to get back with Jack. I haven't seen this for a while, and there may be more to it that I realized.
However, having said that, I agree totally about Cassie being a wake up call to the guy ready to shut out the world, or perhaps, the guy not aware that there is a whole fascinating world outside of the handle around the coffee pot. I love and concur with "love was part of living". In fact, I will go you one more than that, "loving is living." I think that's why we can sense the similarity between Cassie and Jack, they are both filled with love for Ennis, and alive with their love of living. Ennis is a lucky guy and didn't even know it. Fear can make a man dumb and blind.
And remember Ennis reaction to both situations, Cassie with Carl, no reaction, Jack with anyone else, threats, this is where those signs in Ennis you have watch to understand him. Ennis without knowing was telling more about himself, his love for Jack, even when he didn't understand it himself. What pains me is that he didn't understand that it was love all along until the moment he was sitting with Alma, Jr.
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Manhattangirl, those words, "fading away", were the words I felt but could not find. But there seem to be just slight, very slight differences in what that meant. I fully agree, with you and Andrew, he was confronting the fact "this thing.." had a name: love, and that he could not be happy without Jack.
But either it is because I want to see it, or because it is there, that fading away could well mean the dying of the old Ennis (no place left to go), and the levelling off of room for a new Ennis, someone who had no other choice but to eventually change, in order to keep Jack. Change, for Ennis, would be fearful and depressing, but I think he saw that lay somewhere past the death of all his stubborn ways.
Yeah, he's fading away, and very depressed. No, I don't see that ending in retreat, unto himself. All hinged on the next meeting. Until then, the process was dying, then stabilizing, and then, as the next meeting approached, re-birth. He just had to die a little, first, and that terrible process, IMO, was what we are seeing. I do not see him staying in that stage, nor re-uniting with Jack without some concessions. He loved Jack so much, though, some part of himself had to give way, or, if you will, fade away. And that was painful.
Ennis may have not been aware of what was going on with him. But living in the way he insisted was saving his life was in fact killing whatever life he had in him. The only time where he felt life was with Jack, but this ingrain, stubborn insistance on living as he did, was taking away any will to live.
Alma, Jr. was the torch he needed to show him the way, what he was feeling was love.
JMO.
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For me it was all there in embryo right from the first few moments outside Aguirre's trailer, the sort of situation where interest is aroused and attraction dimly felt. The rest is immanent (in the pantheistic sense), though not understood be Ennis and maybe only perceived by Jack. Love perhaps comes at once in the coup de foudre but isn't expressed or maybe even isn;t acknowledged at first.
Somehow, I think what you say here is very close to how it actually happens in most cases.
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He was nothing without Jack, and maybe Cassie was a wake up call, that loving was about staying alive. I don't think this made Ennis a "people person", but it might have made him more receptive to the idea that love was part of living.
JMO
However, having said that, I agree totally about Cassie being a wake up call to the guy ready to shut out the world, or perhaps, the guy not aware that there is a whole fascinating world outside of the handle around the coffee pot. I love and concur with "love was part of living". In fact, I will go you one more than that, "loving is living." I think that's why we can sense the similarity between Cassie and Jack, they are both filled with love for Ennis, and alive with their love of living. Ennis is a lucky guy and didn't even know it. Fear can make a man dumb and blind.
If nothing, Jack's death (and/or Cassie's leaving him) taught Ennis to value life, and to acknowledge love as part of living it, as you say here.
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Well, what's a thread for, if you can't explore a little? And it has occurred to me that on the subject of friendship, sex, and love, there's a simple, maybe simplistic approach I haven't seen anybody ever bother with and that is, who are you comfortable with?
If you apply this approach to everybody, boy do you get whole new categories. How about men who are straight but are basically uncomfortable with women? Think of how many marriages are ensnarled because the husband wants to spend most of his free time with his buddies. How about the ancient Greek/Roman model where, it was plausible for a male to have sex with women, but could only, comfortably, admire and love another man?
How about Oprah, and her contribution for making women feel comfortable....with each other? This approach ends up with all new categories of who we are and how we live our lives.
So, trying to apply this first, to Ennis:
-on friendship, this is a little tricky. Ennis blended in with other males very well, but seemed comfortable only with Jack, as the only male friend of his life.
-on sex, he seemed easily comfortable with sex with women, uncomfortable with the thought of sex with males in general, but, past comfortability, went to heavy lust only with Jack.
-on love, he was vaguely comfortable with Alma and Cassie, but not committed completely. He was uncomfortable loving Jack but there was no way around that powerful force in his life.
Going to Jack:
-Jack was the reverse of Ennis on friendship. He was comfortable with other males, but he didn't blend in. Exact opposite of Ennis.
-on sex, he was very comfortable with sex with ANYBODY. Am sorry. It's true. I'll duck and run from the rotten tomatoes, but it's still true.
-on love, he tried to be comfortable with Lureen, and it started off that way, but it's not impossible the failure of the marriage was that he never really loved her.
Finally, at the start of the movie, we see Ennis uncomfortable with everybody, including himself. Outside Aguirre's trailer. He becomes fairly comfortable with Alma, extremely comfortable with his daughters, reasonably comfortable to the non-entity that was Monroe, but other than Jack, never really comfortable with anybody else, male or female.
Strangely enough, at the end of the film, we find him extremely comfortable, alone, with himself, his own soul. The Ennis putting numbers up on the mailbox is at peace with himself, a complete foil to the Ennis outside Aguirre's trailer, shifting his feet, looking down at the ground. He continued to grieve, terribly, but strangely enough, was comfortable with himself. Friendship, sex, and love, and the comfort derived from them, had, I think, healed his soul.
That's all. The approach of whom you are comfortable with re-arranges everybody into whole new categories, for friendship, sex, and love. And maybe we aren't who we think we are until this is factored in. Just rambling is all. It's a slow Monday. But try it on yourself and see does it show different results. Who are you comfortable with, in those categories, and then, maybe go to Ennis and Jack a little differently. Doesn't hurt.
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Well, what's a thread for, if you can't explore a little? And it has occurred to me that on the subject of friendship, sex, and love, there's a simple, maybe simplistic approach I haven't seen anybody ever bother with and that is, who are you comfortable with?
If you apply this approach to everybody, boy do you get whole new categories. How about men who are straight but are basically uncomfortable with women? Think of how many marriages are ensnarled because the husband wants to spend most of his free time with his buddies. How about the ancient Greek/Roman model where, it was plausible for a male to have sex with women, but could only, comfortably, admire and love another man?
How about Oprah, and her contribution for making women feel comfortable....with each other? This approach ends up with all new categories of who we are and how we live our lives.
So, trying to apply this first, to Ennis:
-on friendship, this is a little tricky. Ennis blended in with other males very well, but seemed comfortable only with Jack, as the only male friend of his life.
-on sex, he seemed easily comfortable with sex with women, uncomfortable with the thought of sex with males in general, but, past comfortability, went to heavy lust only with Jack.
-on love, he was vaguely comfortable with Alma and Cassie, but not committed completely. He was uncomfortable loving Jack but there was no way around that powerful force in his life.
Going to Jack:
-Jack was the reverse of Ennis on friendship. He was comfortable with other males, but he didn't blend in. Exact opposite of Ennis.
-on sex, he was very comfortable with sex with ANYBODY. Am sorry. It's true. I'll duck and run from the rotten tomatoes, but it's still true.
-on love, he tried to be comfortable with Lureen, and it started off that way, but it's not impossible the failure of the marriage was that he never really loved her.
Finally, at the start of the movie, we see Ennis uncomfortable with everybody, including himself. Outside Aguirre's trailer. He becomes fairly comfortable with Alma, extremely comfortable with his daughters, reasonably comfortable to the non-entity that was Monroe, but other than Jack, never really comfortable with anybody else, male or female.
Strangely enough, at the end of the film, we find him extremely comfortable, alone, with himself, his own soul. The Ennis putting numbers up on the mailbox is at peace with himself, a complete foil to the Ennis outside Aguirre's trailer, shifting his feet, looking down at the ground. He continued to grieve, terribly, but strangely enough, was comfortable with himself. Friendship, sex, and love, and the comfort derived from them, had, I think, healed his soul.
That's all. The approach of whom you are comfortable with re-arranges everybody into whole new categories, for friendship, sex, and love. And maybe we aren't who we think we are until this is factored in. Just rambling is all. It's a slow Monday. But try it on yourself and see does it show different results. Who are you comfortable with, in those categories, and then, maybe go to Ennis and Jack a little differently. Doesn't hurt.
Just to start the ball rolling on a discussion. I want to comment on the points raised with Ennis. Was he really comfortable with other men, and was he really comfortable with sex with women? It would seem to me that he was not very comfortable with anybody -- man or woman, in either sex or in a relationship; I am excluding Jack, of course. But it does seem to me that he really didn't have any friends or buddies to hang around with. And as far as sex with women, his flipping Alma over does seem to indicate that he was not comfoprtable with the usual mode of heterosexual intercourse. Granted, it may be his favorite form of contraception, but it still indicates a discomfort with the more usual modes of love-making.
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Well, what's a thread for, if you can't explore a little? And it has occurred to me that on the subject of friendship, sex, and love, there's a simple, maybe simplistic approach I haven't seen anybody ever bother with and that is, who are you comfortable with?
If you apply this approach to everybody, boy do you get whole new categories. How about men who are straight but are basically uncomfortable with women? Think of how many marriages are ensnarled because the husband wants to spend most of his free time with his buddies. How about the ancient Greek/Roman model where, it was plausible for a male to have sex with women, but could only, comfortably, admire and love another man?
How about Oprah, and her contribution for making women feel comfortable....with each other? This approach ends up with all new categories of who we are and how we live our lives.
So, trying to apply this first, to Ennis:
-on friendship, this is a little tricky. Ennis blended in with other males very well, but seemed comfortable only with Jack, as the only male friend of his life.
-on sex, he seemed easily comfortable with sex with women, uncomfortable with the thought of sex with males in general, but, past comfortability, went to heavy lust only with Jack.
-on love, he was vaguely comfortable with Alma and Cassie, but not committed completely. He was uncomfortable loving Jack but there was no way around that powerful force in his life.
Going to Jack:
-Jack was the reverse of Ennis on friendship. He was comfortable with other males, but he didn't blend in. Exact opposite of Ennis.
-on sex, he was very comfortable with sex with ANYBODY. Am sorry. It's true. I'll duck and run from the rotten tomatoes, but it's still true.
-on love, he tried to be comfortable with Lureen, and it started off that way, but it's not impossible the failure of the marriage was that he never really loved her.
Finally, at the start of the movie, we see Ennis uncomfortable with everybody, including himself. Outside Aguirre's trailer. He becomes fairly comfortable with Alma, extremely comfortable with his daughters, reasonably comfortable to the non-entity that was Monroe, but other than Jack, never really comfortable with anybody else, male or female.
Strangely enough, at the end of the film, we find him extremely comfortable, alone, with himself, his own soul. The Ennis putting numbers up on the mailbox is at peace with himself, a complete foil to the Ennis outside Aguirre's trailer, shifting his feet, looking down at the ground. He continued to grieve, terribly, but strangely enough, was comfortable with himself. Friendship, sex, and love, and the comfort derived from them, had, I think, healed his soul.
That's all. The approach of whom you are comfortable with re-arranges everybody into whole new categories, for friendship, sex, and love. And maybe we aren't who we think we are until this is factored in. Just rambling is all. It's a slow Monday. But try it on yourself and see does it show different results. Who are you comfortable with, in those categories, and then, maybe go to Ennis and Jack a little differently. Doesn't hurt.
Yet another thought provoking post, Tony. I love the whole concept of people who feel comfortable with people...isn't this how friendship begins? At the same time, I hesitate to generalize too much, because there are almost always exceptions to any generalization, including this one.
I agree that Ennis is the kind of person who would disappear in a crowd, blendingin to the background, but he is also able to make individual friends, like Don Wroe, who lend him the cabin, or even his best man at the wedding. So Ennis is not the total loner. But he keeps a respectful distance from all people, like all lonesome cowboys, except with Jack, who he lets in after SNIT. It's that pivotal night that changed everything for Ennis.
It also occurred to me that Ennis' relationships with women maybe colored by Heath's own relationship with women, so that Ennis in the movie was able to have deeper more meaningful relationships then Ennis in the short story, as Annie Proulx intended. Ennis was suppose to be a cowboy's cowboy, not a lady's man.
And in defense of Jack, (without throwing rocks or anything) I don't think he sleeps with just anyone, only people who reminded him of Ennis. He needed Ennis so bad, he NEEDED a substitute when he couldn't have the real deal. It's no excuse, I admit, but who am I to judge Jack? I wish I can feel half the love he has for Ennis - driving 14 hrs each way...for twenty years...
I think his relationship with Lureen was doomed from the beginning because Old Man Newsome was always butting in between them. He could not let go of his little girl, and she didn't have the heart or gut to tell him off. When Jack finally stood up to him, she was all smiles. I think they really loved each other, but perhaps the love with Ennis was just too overwhelming, and the drinking did not help. She really missed him when he died.
And your observation that Ennis became very comfortable with his own skin at the end of the movie is precisely my point from the beginning. I felt good with the ending because I felt Ennis accepting himself, his lot in life, and finally learned to treasure his memories with Jack. And the mailbox is his way of taking root, to be closer to his girls and Jack's Ma. I suppose, in the diner when Cassie walked in, he was NOT retreating into Fortress Ennis as I said earlier, but he was making camp, ready to live out the rest of his life alone, accepting fate, miserable as it was. That's probably why we saw different in the scene. You saw the misery; I saw the acceptance for loneliness. We are probably both right to some degree.
Thanks for the lead into uncharted territory.
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Andrew and Thomas, thanks for taking the subject seriously. "Comfortable" is so vapid a word, it's hard to imagine it could be a surgical probe, prying loose one personality trait from another, and yet....it works. Or at least it does for me.
I do think Ennis was uncomfortable with everybody, because he was uncomfortable with himself, but all of that only to a certain degree. He looks comfortable with, but indifferent to other males, ending up uncomfortable with any REAL interaction. That's hopefully not a sloppy sentence but rather, carefully worded. He certainly did blend in with other males and they accepted him, readily.
Not so, Jack. HE felt comfortable with other males, tentatively, but did not blend in, as he was invariably identified as too lively or not of the standard mold.
As for sex, I still see Ennis comfortable with regular sex with women. Someone expanded the film version, allowing for possible new meaning. The SS has Ennis preferring rear entry. Yet, reviewing the scene with Alma, she enticed him, she expected regular intercourse (and clearly, from her breathing acceleration, she had had much satisfaction, before), but, instead, he flips her over, and she did NOT expect that. The only clue we are given is the perceptible, but subtle freeze-up in Ennis' face when she mentions his loneliness as a child. It's visible. He's altered. Leaving a possible connection between FNIT and that scene: you touch upon Ennis' loneliness, or challenge it, and that's his response-primitive. In the film only.
Finally, Andrew, it may be that you defend Jack's virtue out of loyalty and I undermine it, as I am a card-carrying, registered scaliwag. But i still say he'd have sex with ANYBODY. The guy in the alley in Mexico, Randall, and even LaShawn, weren't particularly unattractive, but they really weren't as attractive as, say, Cassie, or Lureen. Am sorry I see him as an equal-opportunity boinger, or seem to. Maybe I should just say: love-puppy, available if you caught him at the right time. Which would be.... morning, noon, and night.
Again, the phrase "comfortable with" doesn't seem too promising, and yet, given the variations in any one personality, IMO, it's got some surprising results, when applied.
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Well, I think about it sometimes, and I do feel that both of them (Ennis and Jack) didn't exactly bl;end in with other males. Ennis was espceially confrontational in many of the scenes he had with other men (the man stopping by the alleyway, the trck driver that beat him, the bikers). Even his attitude to Monroe was ambivalent -- not a single word exchanged in the Thanksgiving scene, if you recall.
As for Jack, one can say the same thing, except instead of being confrontational, he was more a subtle, if you get my drift. He certainly connected with Randall, even though he failed with the rodeo clown. His dealing with the elder Newsome were certainly not confrontational until the Thanksgiving scene, when he felt that he had no choice. He was adept in signals, I guess. One did feel that he was more of a ladies man, no?
But I did feel that both of them had a distinct ambivalence and guardedness (e.g., that scene with Randall at the bench) that spoke of an unease with other human beings -- male or female.
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[...]
I do think Ennis was uncomfortable with everybody, because he was uncomfortable with himself, but all of that only to a certain degree. He looks comfortable with, but indifferent to other males, ending up uncomfortable with any REAL interaction. That's hopefully not a sloppy sentence but rather, carefully worded. He certainly did blend in with other males and they accepted him, readily.
Not so, Jack. HE felt comfortable with other males, tentatively, but did not blend in, as he was invariably identified as too lively or not of the standard mold.
As for sex, I still see Ennis comfortable with regular sex with women. Someone expanded the film version, allowing for possible new meaning. The SS has Ennis preferring rear entry. Yet, reviewing the scene with Alma, she enticed him, she expected regular intercourse (and clearly, from her breathing acceleration, she had had much satisfaction, before), but, instead, he flips her over, and she did NOT expect that. The only clue we are given is the perceptible, but subtle freeze-up in Ennis' face when she mentions his loneliness as a child. It's visible. He's altered. Leaving a possible connection between FNIT and that scene: you touch upon Ennis' loneliness, or challenge it, and that's his response-primitive. In the film only.
Finally, Andrew, it may be that you defend Jack's virtue out of loyalty and I undermine it, as I am a card-carrying, registered scaliwag. But i still say he'd have sex with ANYBODY. The guy in the alley in Mexico, Randall, and even LaShawn, weren't particularly unattractive, but they really weren't as attractive as, say, Cassie, or Lureen. Am sorry I see him as an equal-opportunity boinger, or seem to. Maybe I should just say: love-puppy, available if you caught him at the right time. Which would be.... morning, noon, and night.
Again, the phrase "comfortable with" doesn't seem too promising, and yet, given the variations in any one personality, IMO, it's got some surprising results, when applied.
Tony, I think you got Ennis and Jack pegged exactly right when it comes to comfort level. I can related to Ennis precisely because that's me...uncomfortable with myself, which translates to uncomfortable with everyone else...which translates to content with lonesome living. Thanks to many months of transformation and evolution, I am more comfortable with myself, and with others, but there are still long ways to go, as with Ennis in the final scenes.
I don't know if it is loyalty or just benefit of the doubt. I like what you say about love-sick puppy because in a way, Jack is love-sick for Ennis. But I don't think he would jump into bed with just anyone. First of all, he did NOT go with Lashawn. It was Randall. And secondly, of the three people who Jack hooked up with, or tried to hook up with: 1) rodeo clown - this was after the split, and four years later...and the guy does look a lot like Ennis from behind, 2) Mexican - tall, and masculine, and not bad looking, so what more is there to do...a cowboy hat and you have an Ennis substitute, 3) Randall - again tall, masculine, and even educated. I think that last bit was the most attractive to Jack because by this time, twenty years of Jack-bashing from old man Newsome was really tiring. He needed to feel that he was loveable by someone with credentials.
I am not saying any of it was justified. I am only saying I understand the love-sick puppy feeling because I've been there. And I wish Jack never went there, and stayed faithful to Ennis. In fact, I believe I mentioned months ago, that the three scenes of Jack chatting up these three fellas are the three scenes that I dislike the most.
Anyhow, I think you got Jack and Ennis figured out, in terms of their comfort level with other people, and even with themselves. Ennis was not loved as a child and so felt uncomfortable with anyone, not even with himself. Jack was loved by Jack's Ma so he has that much going for his self-confidence and self-image, but he was also pissed on by men in general, and the Old Man in particular, so he was always expecting other men to do the same. In a way, it is why Ennis can get alone with other men better than Jack. Ennis had a good relationship with his dad, even though the guy never showed any love.
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I am not saying any of it was justified. I am only saying I understand the love-sick puppy feeling because I've been there. And I wish Jack never went there, and stayed faithful to Ennis. In fact, I believe I mentioned months ago, that the three scenes of Jack chatting up these three fellas are the three scenes that I dislike the most.
They are uncomfortable. But they do show a striking difference between Ennis and Jack. Both of them needed companionship deep down. But Jack actively sought companionship while Ennis was content to "stand" the life of a loner, even though he desired otherwise. I think he married Alma out of a sense of "duty" to society -- one was expected to marry as one broke out on one's own. After this failed marriage, he gave out very few concessions, even to Jack. Not that he didn't want Jack's companionship -- he just thought that it was too good to grab with both hands.
You are of course familiar with the central tenet of Shaun in "Shelter" -- if you don't take, how will you ever get what you desire?
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[...]
You are of course familiar with the central tenet of Shaun in "Shelter" -- if you don't take, how will you ever get what you desire?
Hmm...I guess it's not off topic since this thread is about friendship, sex and love, which is exactly what I love about Shelter. However, with respect to those who have not yet seen the movie, I won't jump into the story and give everything away.
I agree with you that the central tenet is a powerful one, and it is one that I love about the movie. However, I think we need to keep in mind the context of this tenet. It is about taking what has already been given...i.e. the love between Shaun and Zach, the love between Ennis and Jack. Yes, both Zach and Ennis should reach out and take the love that has been offered to them. No, neither Zach nor Ennis should go to Mexico or where ever to find substitutes when they are love-sick for Shaun or Jack.
*** SPOILERS TO SHELTER FOLLOW ***
I love the scene in the diner...and I will only say this once...when Zach was asked if "he was seeing other guys" or "do you think he is hot" that he got visibly angry and annoyed. To him, the man loyal to family to the core, such talk is simply not acceptable. I believe it is the same with Ennis. By the way, notice how clever I left out the name of the person doing the talking. <^( One of my favorite characters, like Jack's Ma.
Yes, when love founds us, it is right and proper, to reach out, and take the hand...like Zach did at the end...ooops, I said too much. :*(
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Hmm...I guess it's not off topic since this thread is about friendship, sex and love, which is exactly what I love about Shelter. However, with respect to those who have not yet seen the movie, I won't jump into the story and give everything away.
I agree with you that the central tenet is a powerful one, and it is one that I love about the movie. However, I think we need to keep in mind the context of this tenet. It is about taking what has already been given...i.e. the love between Shaun and Zach, the love between Ennis and Jack. Yes, both Zach and Ennis should reach out and take the love that has been offered to them. No, neither Zach nor Ennis should go to Mexico or where ever to find substitutes when they are love-sick for Shaun or Jack.
*** SPOILERS TO SHELTER FOLLOW ***
I love the scene in the diner...and I will only say this once...when Zach was asked if "he was seeing other guys" or "do you think he is hot" that he got visibly angry and annoyed. To him, the man loyal to family to the core, such talk is simply not acceptable. I believe it is the same with Ennis. By the way, notice how clever I left out the name of the person doing the talking. <^( One of my favorite characters, like Jack's Ma.
Yes, when love founds us, it is right and proper, to reach out, and take the hand...like Zach did at the end...ooops, I said too much. :*(
*** SPOILERS TO SHELTER FOLLOW ***
;D Sorry lance, I didn't mean to derail the current discussion, but I agree with you that there are fruitful comaprisons and contrasts/differences between the 2 love relationships. And of course, the times and the worlds in which they occur are so so different. Zach was blessed with an eventually supportive group of friends and even his sister understood in the end. We can't say the same for Ennis, and to take in his context was much much more difficult and problematic than in the case of Zach.
It goes to show that love, friendship, and sex rely heavily on the context in which they flower or wither. Things could have been different for Ennis, had he lived in a different time or place.
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Am glad Shelter entered into the discussion, because any film or story, paralleling BBM, and used to compare and contrast what's up between Ennis and Jack seems relevant. We bring in all kinds of stories as examples, so, that isn't new. I haven't seen that film but Andrew and Thomas haven't used it without explaining where it fits in, and so, have managed to see their points.
It might seem the over-all topic we are on, friendship leading to sex, and then to love, is just too simple to bother with. But I still think there can be imbalances that help explain Ennis and Jack and so it's worth a go. I'd almost drift, at times, into Ennis, above all else, even the sex, wanting a sacred friendship love, but that romantic love kept defining itself as there and challenging him. Jack, it could be, ranked the friendship least, and went straight for a haunting romantic love, which needed constant reassurance from sex. Imbalances, with Ennis not keeping up, nor understanding which was which.
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Am glad Shelter entered into the discussion, because any film or story, paralleling BBM, and used to compare and contrast what's up between Ennis and Jack seems relevant. We bring in all kinds of stories as examples, so, that isn't new. I haven't seen that film but Andrew and Thomas haven't used it without explaining where it fits in, and so, have managed to see their points.
It might seem the over-all topic we are on, friendship leading to sex, and then to love, is just too simple to bother with. But I still think there can be imbalances that help explain Ennis and Jack and so it's worth a go. I'd almost drift, at times, into Ennis, above all else, even the sex, wanting a sacred friendship love, but that romantic love kept defining itself as there and challenging him. Jack, it could be, ranked the friendship least, and went straight for a haunting romantic love, which needed constant reassurance from sex. Imbalances, with Ennis not keeping up, nor understanding which was which.
Interesting that you mention this, because I was watching a landmark presentation on Public Television on the history of the gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgender communities in Chicago, and they talk about how Romantic friendships -- not supposedly sexual -- were much more common in the 19th century than in the 20th, and that they closely paralleled intense life-long, committed friendships, similar to the so-called "Boston Marriages" between people of the same sex.
I wonder whether Jack's may be categorized in terms of a romantic friendship in the beginning, in contrast to romantic love (which came later). The difference lies in the 19th century distinction that romantic love could have been sexual, whereas romantic friendships -- while very sensual and physical in expression -- remained largely platonic.
So I would propose Jack developing from such a romantic friendship to romantic love, which actually has a sexual element in it, although idealized.
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Dear Thomas - that was really pertinent information, there, based on historical models in the past. I hope I've got it right:
romantic friendships - sensual, but rarely sexual
romantic loves - usually leading to sex
This, of course, makes "Friendship, sex, and love..." as a topic, somewhat more complex, but if it's there, and IMO, it IS there, what you did was to add a critical dimension.
I would add, I really don't think this was just the 19th century. I have a very strong belief that men and women "bonded" with someone of the same gender, all the way back through the history of humanity, that it was non-sexual, and that, essentially, homophobia, where it may have always been around, has accelerated in modern times, terrorizing people and stealing from them any chance of fulfillment from friendship loves, whether romantic or not.
David and Jonathon, Henry 1V (?) and Thomas a Becket, Henry VIII and Thomas More, Mary Stuart and Arabella Stuart, Queen Anne and the Duchess of Marlboro are examples of the famous, but how many farmers and soldiers formed solid loves, which now would come under fire from homophobes as being gay, or from gays as needing to be "outted"? SOMETHING was there that was permitted and not condemned and which has been STOLEN from Western culture in modern times.
Well, you've mentioned Jack as moving from romantic friendship to romantic love, and I've used the term "sacred friendship" for Ennis' initial feelings.
I am thinking, they mean the same thing. And I do believe you are right, Jack went from one stage to the next fairly quickly. This undermines the hopes of those who want to see massive sexual attraction, repressed, outside Aguirre's trailer. But it does not undermine the general theory that both were awakening to same-gender leanings, so I hope no one gets miffed there.
Gosh, I wish I had seen that program.
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So I would propose Jack developing from such a romantic friendship to romantic love, which actually has a sexual element in it, although idealized.
Totally agree about this, Thomas. I've always thought that in some way Jack idealized the BBM's Ennis and their summer up in there. Maybe he thought that living with Ennis could be like what they did in BBM. And I think because that idealization of BBM's Ennis, his most precious memory ever was the DE, and maybe that's why he wanted his ashes scattered up there too...because for him staying in BBM was the best time in his life ever, and I'm not saying that it was not, but maybe he had very sweet moments after that too, just like the reunion kiss...But I think he idealized BBM, and the altar to venerate that idealized love was his closet, where those shirts reminded him of that "perfect" time in the mountain when he was young and free, and where their love was "perfect" too. Yeah, I think that maybe he saw the love and the time they shared in BBM as a perfect, or at least as the happiest one. And I know that Jack always loved Ennis with all his heart (I'm a Jack girl, don't forget it), but I think too that he spent 20 years looking for something like he had up in BBM. Those shirts, his desire to have his ashes there, his very precious memory and the fact that he said to Lureen that his favorite place was BBM, make me thing that maybe he idealized that place, that love and that Ennis...and he never gave up his fight to get all those wonderful things back. I think that maybe it's why they never returned to BBM (like the SS and the screenplay say), because it was like a sacred place, a sacred memory that they both never wanted to stain. And that's why he said that they only thing they had now was BBM. They didn't return there ever, so why did he say that BBM was everything what they got? I think that he said that like saying that the only thing they had for real was their memory of BBM and the now gone time they spent there. Maybe Jack spent 20 years with Ennis living thanks to those memories of BBM, hoping that one day he could live that again, the full love, the freedom...He said that everything was built on that, in BBM, and I agree...It was like saying that their love was built in just an idealized time and love that they couldn't forget. I mean, how many millions of people think that their first love was the best one, the only true? And how many people say that some summer or a certain time spent somewhere was the most special precious ever? And we all know that all that people are in some way idealizing that time or that love. We always idealize our beloved ones, especially when we are apart, and old people use to talk about their young loves like they were totally perfect...And I can see that in Jack. That older bitter Jack maybe thought that the BBM's Ennis and that time in BBM were almost perfect, and he, with the time passing by, idealized that memory as we all do with our loved old memories. My heart breaks when I see that old Jack...serious, tired, hardly speaking, with a broken look in his face...so different from that smiling sweet funny Jack so full of life...Jack lived dreaming, dreaming a very idealized dream, and when the reality hit him it was so much for him to bear.
Now, I think that what I said has nothing to do with what you wrote, friend!! ;D ;D Sorry, I just saw the word "idealized" and I got carry away. ::) ::) Really sorry about this. If you think that this post is shit just move it to another thread where it has something to do with the topic, or just erase it!! Thank you!! :^^)
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I think that maybe it's why they never returned to BBM (like the SS and the screenplay say), because it was like a sacred place, a sacred memory that they both never wanted to stain.
Why move it when you can quote it? The sacred place, the sacred memory, .... each was of romantic love that was, in the squalid world below, always under threat, always difficult to restore to the same level, as that up on the mountain. Thanks, Tammy, and please don't apologize for being....right.
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Dear Thomas - that was really pertinent information, there, based on historical models in the past. I hope I've got it right:
romantic friendships - sensual, but rarely sexual
romantic loves - usually leading to sex
This, of course, makes "Friendship, sex, and love..." as a topic, somewhat more complex, but if it's there, and IMO, it IS there, what you did was to add a critical dimension.
I would add, I really don't think this was just the 19th century. I have a very strong belief that men and women "bonded" with someone of the same gender, all the way back through the history of humanity, that it was non-sexual, and that, essentially, homophobia, where it may have always been around, has accelerated in modern times, terrorizing people and stealing from them any chance of fulfillment from friendship loves, whether romantic or not.
David and Jonathon, Henry 1V (?) and Thomas a Becket, Henry VIII and Thomas More, Mary Stuart and Arabella Stuart, Queen Anne and the Duchess of Marlboro are examples of the famous, but how many farmers and soldiers formed solid loves, which now would come under fire from homophobes as being gay, or from gays as needing to be "outted"? SOMETHING was there that was permitted and not condemned and which has been STOLEN from Western culture in modern times.
Well, you've mentioned Jack as moving from romantic friendship to romantic love, and I've used the term "sacred friendship" for Ennis' initial feelings.
I am thinking, they mean the same thing. And I do believe you are right, Jack went from one stage to the next fairly quickly. This undermines the hopes of those who want to see massive sexual attraction, repressed, outside Aguirre's trailer. But it does not undermine the general theory that both were awakening to same-gender leanings, so I hope no one gets miffed there.
Gosh, I wish I had seen that program.
I do think the term "sacred friendships" means the same thing, Tony. And yes, I do agree that it is not just the 19th century. I think what clouds the distinction today is the inability of people nowadays to believe that such friendships could exist. For some reason, today's more "accepting" environment has made people feel either suspicious of people's intentions, or assume that anything goes nowadays. In the latter case, people have lost the subtlety of distinctions, I guess. But I think these less subtle attitudes can be extrapolated into much of 20th century USA (in contrast to certain places in Europe at the time), and Jack's and Ennis world can be subjected to such an extrapolation.
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Totally agree about this, Thomas. I've always thought that in some way Jack idealized the BBM's Ennis and their summer up in there. Maybe he thought that living with Ennis could be like what they did in BBM. And I think because that idealization of BBM's Ennis, his most precious memory ever was the DE, and maybe that's why he wanted his ashes scattered up there too...because for him staying in BBM was the best time in his life ever, and I'm not saying that it was not, but maybe he had very sweet moments after that too, just like the reunion kiss...But I think he idealized BBM, and the altar to venerate that idealized love was his closet, where those shirts reminded him of that "perfect" time in the mountain when he was young and free, and where their love was "perfect" too. Yeah, I think that maybe he saw the love and the time they shared in BBM as a perfect, or at least as the happiest one. And I know that Jack always loved Ennis with all his heart (I'm a Jack girl, don't forget it), but I think too that he spent 20 years looking for something like he had up in BBM. Those shirts, his desire to have his ashes there, his very precious memory and the fact that he said to Lureen that his favorite place was BBM, make me thing that maybe he idealized that place, that love and that Ennis...and he never gave up his fight to get all those wonderful things back. I think that maybe it's why they never returned to BBM (like the SS and the screenplay say), because it was like a sacred place, a sacred memory that they both never wanted to stain. And that's why he said that they only thing they had now was BBM. They didn't return there ever, so why did he say that BBM was everything what they got? I think that he said that like saying that the only thing they had for real was their memory of BBM and the now gone time they spent there. Maybe Jack spent 20 years with Ennis living thanks to those memories of BBM, hoping that one day he could live that again, the full love, the freedom...He said that everything was built on that, in BBM, and I agree...It was like saying that their love was built in just an idealized time and love that they couldn't forget. I mean, how many millions of people think that their first love was the best one, the only true? And how many people say that some summer or a certain time spent somewhere was the most special precious ever? And we all know that all that people are in some way idealizing that time or that love. We always idealize our beloved ones, especially when we are apart, and old people use to talk about their young loves like they were totally perfect...And I can see that in Jack. That older bitter Jack maybe thought that the BBM's Ennis and that time in BBM were almost perfect, and he, with the time passing by, idealized that memory as we all do with our loved old memories. My heart breaks when I see that old Jack...serious, tired, hardly speaking, with a broken look in his face...so different from that smiling sweet funny Jack so full of life...Jack lived dreaming, dreaming a very idealized dream, and when the reality hit him is was so much for him to bear.
Now, I think that what I said has nothing to do with what you wrote, friend!! ;D ;D Sorry, I just saw the word "idealized" and I got carry away. ::) ::) Really sorry about this. If you think that this post is shit just move it to another thread where it has something to do with the topic, or just erase it!! Thank you!! :^^)
Far from it, I think it is an excelent point, Tammy. I do feel that Jack idealized the whole thing, and in a way, that kept him going over the years, in spite of the more disappointing reality. But most of all, I do think that the shirts in the closet do embody that idealization, and I suggest that Ennis understood the power of this vision (enough to evoke all of what remained of BBM) when he discovered them after Jack's death.
Idealizations have such power -- to push back the bonds of reality even for one moment and see things for what they could be or what they could have been.
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Totally agree about this, Thomas. I've always thought that in some way Jack idealized the BBM's Ennis and their summer up in there. Maybe he thought that living with Ennis could be like what they did in BBM. And I think because that idealization of BBM's Ennis, his most precious memory ever was the DE, and maybe that's why he wanted his ashes scattered up there too...because for him staying in BBM was the best time in his life ever, and I'm not saying that it was not, but maybe he had very sweet moments after that too, just like the reunion kiss...But I think he idealized BBM, and the altar to venerate that idealized love was his closet, where those shirts reminded him of that "perfect" time in the mountain when he was young and free, and where their love was "perfect" too. Yeah, I think that maybe he saw the love and the time they shared in BBM as a perfect, or at least as the happiest one. And I know that Jack always loved Ennis with all his heart (I'm a Jack girl, don't forget it), but I think too that he spent 20 years looking for something like he had up in BBM. Those shirts, his desire to have his ashes there, his very precious memory and the fact that he said to Lureen that his favorite place was BBM, make me thing that maybe he idealized that place, that love and that Ennis...and he never gave up his fight to get all those wonderful things back. I think that maybe it's why they never returned to BBM (like the SS and the screenplay say), because it was like a sacred place, a sacred memory that they both never wanted to stain. And that's why he said that they only thing they had now was BBM. They didn't return there ever, so why did he say that BBM was everything what they got? I think that he said that like saying that the only thing they had for real was their memory of BBM and the now gone time they spent there. Maybe Jack spent 20 years with Ennis living thanks to those memories of BBM, hoping that one day he could live that again, the full love, the freedom...He said that everything was built on that, in BBM, and I agree...It was like saying that their love was built in just an idealized time and love that they couldn't forget. I mean, how many millions of people think that their first love was the best one, the only true? And how many people say that some summer or a certain time spent somewhere was the most special precious ever? And we all know that all that people are in some way idealizing that time or that love. We always idealize our beloved ones, especially when we are apart, and old people use to talk about their young loves like they were totally perfect...And I can see that in Jack. That older bitter Jack maybe thought that the BBM's Ennis and that time in BBM were almost perfect, and he, with the time passing by, idealized that memory as we all do with our loved old memories. My heart breaks when I see that old Jack...serious, tired, hardly speaking, with a broken look in his face...so different from that smiling sweet funny Jack so full of life...Jack lived dreaming, dreaming a very idealized dream, and when the reality hit him is was so much for him to bear.
Now, I think that what I said has nothing to do with what you wrote, friend!! ;D ;D Sorry, I just saw the word "idealized" and I got carry away. ::) ::) Really sorry about this. If you think that this post is shit just move it to another thread where it has something to do with the topic, or just erase it!! Thank you!! :^^)
Tammy, amiga! I am so glad to see you posting in this thread, with you usual Shelter prolific length! I don't see us getting over 100 pages in a month, not without some serious gorgeous pictures, but your post is definitely amazing. I love everything you said, and it ties together what Thomas and Tony have been saying with the idealization that you remind us...Annie Proulx purposely made Brokeback Mountain a place they never went back to visit, as you said, so they would not disturb the memory of that summer of '63. It was sacred memory that cannot be duplicated. The idea that the two shirts represented that idealization is an powerful one. In a sense, the romantic idealization that Jack dreamed for their cow and calf operation was transferred to Ennis when he held those two shirts, when he relived the dozy embrace, embracing those two shirts....
The idealization of first love...of those special moments...of those special places...in a way, I see Annie Proulx using the distance to Brokeback Mountain to represent the barrier that we all have, in time. We can never relive the special first love, the first kiss (I love the comment by Trevor thanking Jonah for arranging the shoot sequence so they shot the kissing scenes like it was in the film, so their first kiss was a real first kiss between them). We idealize moments in our lives because we must...to relive those special moments...over and over. That's what Ennis did while brooding over his beer after beer sitting in the bar alone, when Cassie came on to him. That's what Ennis did while eating his apple pie alone, when Cassie came over to tell him girls don't fall in love for fun. It finally occurred to him that all the thinking over and over, the wrunging out hundreds of time...is no longer just lust having fun, it was love. In a way, it is the same that happened when Zach and Shaun broke up...Zach thinking over and over the passionate night...the first kiss...Instead of memories of Brokeback Mountain, he had memories of his firsts.... <^( Don't we all?
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Aww, Thomas, Tony, Andrew!! Thank you so much for not thinking I'm a cow in front of a computer, saying nonsenses!! :^^)
I agree with all of you.
I've been reading this thread since Tony wrote that first post..and I wanted to write a post a lot of times, but you all say wonderful deep poetic things and, most of times, I just don't know how to say what I'm thinking..so I remain in silence. But I love everything you write here, Tony, Thomas, Andrew, WW, AF, MG!!! ^f^ Keep writing please!!
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"Wither is fled he visonary gleam?
Where is it now, the glory and the dream?"
Isn't that what they glimpsed up on the mountain, and never recaptured?
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Aww, Thomas, Tony, Andrew!! Thank you so much for not thinking I'm a cow in front of a computer, saying nonsenses!! :^^)
I agree with all of you.
I've been reading this thread since Tony wrote that first post..and I wanted to write a post a lot of times, but you all say wonderful deep poetic things and, most of times, I just don't know how to say what I'm thinking..so I remain in silence. But I love everything you write here, Tony, Thomas, Andrew, WW, AF, MG!!! ^f^ Keep writing please!!
Don't hesitate to write what you think here, Tammy. We are all open to the discussion, and there are no hard truths in this one. :)
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"Wither is fled he visonary gleam?
Where is it now, the glory and the dream?"
Isn't that what they glimpsed up on the mountain, and never recaptured?
When old age shall this generation waste,
Thou shalt remain, in midst of other woe
Than ours...
The vision is gone, but truth and beauty remains. That is all we know, and need to know.
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"Wither is fled he visonary gleam?
Where is it now, the glory and the dream?"
Isn't that what they glimpsed up on the mountain, and never recaptured?
And maybe that's the beginning and the ending. In ss they never went back to Brokeback, they never talk about the sex, they never utter the word "love", why? It was all emotional and physical, but nothing intellectual, they never discussed it. It's like they were in "season", an emotional and physical need that continued for all those years, (sorry for being so crude). How can a relationship grow when lovers are just living off of one moment in time.
JMO.
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And maybe that's the beginning and the ending. In ss they never went back to Brokeback, they never talk about the sex, they never utter the word "love", why? It was all emotional and physical, but nothing intellectual, they never discussed it. It's like they were in "season", an emotional and physical need that continued for all those years, (sorry for being so crude). How can a relationship grow when lovers are just living off of one moment in time.
One moment in time can be an eternity. Sorry if this sounds like a cliche, but it's true. Sometimes, the rest of our lives are driven by one fleeting vision. And even if the vision fades away, the beauty of the vision remians (to quote Cavafy) like perfume
that goes on clinging to my flesh.
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One moment in time can be an eternity. Sorry if this sounds like a cliche, but it's true. Sometimes, the rest of our lives are driven by one fleeting vision. And even if the vision fades away, the beauty of the vision remians (to quote Cavafy) like perfume
that goes on clinging to my flesh.[/i]
Like Ennis trying to catch the scent of Jack on the shirt, but only left with the memory of him.
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After that summer was over, didn't it seem like both were frozen in that moment, and didn't know how to make the next step in a relationship. There were no stages, at the age of 25, 35, 40, they were still living that summer over and over again. They both lived in '63, and stayed in '63. I can understand the enormous pain each went through at the final confrontation, it took twenty years to even acknowledge that there were something deep between them.
Just a thought.
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How can a relationship grow when lovers are just living off of one moment in time.
Yeah, there's something to that, MG, that the relationship didn't seem to grow, and that was Jack's complaint: All we got is Brokeback Mountain.
So, in that sense, there was the problem ---it didn't go anywhere. Offsetting that, however, were the 20 years, which is nothing to overlook. That they kept coming back to each other, regularly, by a profound commitment, has to mean something. And it did, to them. But there was, as you say, no growth towards that full and complete relationship that would have made for a happy ending. As to why it didn't grow to completion, well, that's what we're still looking over, year after year, as will be those who follow us.
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Yeah, there's something to that, MG, that the relationship didn't seem to grow, and that was Jack's complaint: All we got is Brokeback Mountain.
So, in that sense, there was the problem ---it didn't go anywhere. Offsetting that, however, were the 20 years, which is nothing to overlook. That they kept coming back to each other, regularly, by a profound commitment, has to mean something. And it did, to them. But there was, as you say, no growth towards that full and complete relationship that would have made for a happy ending. As to why it didn't grow to completion, well, that's what we're still looking over, year after year, as will be those who follow us.
Tony, I'm thinking of the mindset of both men. Ennis holding on to this stubborn insistance on being so closeted right up till midlife with choices in life limiting to him now. Jack, insisting on a life that he sees not as something for the future, but needs to happened now. The clock was ticking, it's not '63 anymore but '83.
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Dear Manhattangirl, - yes, I do see how frustrated you and so many others are (and Jack was) about Ennis' mindset. Aintfoolin tended to agree, somewhat, on something I had posted on another thread, so I'll go on and do it again.
We Brokies divide up as to whether Ennis would ever change, and I am of the belief that he was so broken in spirit, which showed in the diner, that he was headed for change.
I've used the example of earthquakes. The tectonic plates we are all on, the land itself, is under pressure which builds up slowly and then is released suddenly in an earthquake, with the land mass moving forward, and then becoming stable again. That's Ennis, to me. Stubborn as a mule, but those forces were building up and he would....change. He had before. To same gender sex in FNIT. To tenderness and loving in SNIT. And to the only arrangement he felt he could sustain, after the reunion - regular meeting up.....forever. Jack's bitterness, never seen by him before, was working on his mind, and, in the diner, he was fading away from the dilemma.
But MG, as the next meet-up approached, I feel he knew he couldn't go without offering Jack.....something. He never got the chance. So there's the difference, maybe.... some see an Ennis eternally paralyzed, and I see an Ennis that could not live without Jack, and so would have to make some changes.
"I wish I could quit you..."
"Well, why don't you...? It's because of you I'm this way...."
Ennis never once said he would quit Jack, in that confrontation. Which means, just like that lonesome trip to the tent before SNIT, Ennis, once again.... would have to make a move.
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Dear Manhattangirl, - yes, I do see how frustrated you and so many others are (and Jack was) about Ennis' mindset. Aintfoolin tended to agree, somewhat, on something I had posted on another thread, so I'll go on and do it again.
We Brokies divide up as to whether Ennis would ever change, and I am of the belief that he was so broken in spirit, which showed in the diner, that he was headed for change.
I've used the example of earthquakes. The tectonic plates we are all on, the land itself, is under pressure which builds up slowly and then is released suddenly in an earthquake, with the land mass moving forward, and then becoming stable again. That's Ennis, to me. Stubborn as a mule, but those forces were building up and he would....change. He had before. To same gender sex in FNIT. To tenderness and loving in SNIT. And to the only arrangement he felt he could sustain, after the reunion - regular meeting up.....forever. Jack's bitterness, never seen by him before, was working on his mind, and, in the diner, he was fading away from the dilemma. But MG, as the next meet-up approached, I feel he knew he couldn't go without offering Jack.....something. He never got the chance. So there's the difference, maybe.... some see an Ennis eternally paralyzed, and I see an Ennis that could not live without Jack, and so would have to make some changes.
"I wish I could quit you..."
"Well, why don't you...? It's because of you I'm this way...."Ennis never once said he would quit Jack, in that confrontation. Which means, just like that lonesome trip to the tent before SNIT, Ennis, once again.... would have to make a move.
What you said is so true. There were many seismic shifts Ennis went through. The one so telling for me was his acknowledgement to Alma of his relationship with Jack. Not one time did he deny Jack. But after the final confrontation he knew he could lose him. And again you're right on that point, losing Jack was not an option, but conceding something to Jack was.
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Wonderful posts here everywhere by everyone.
Yeah, there's something to that, MG, that the relationship didn't seem to grow, and that was Jack's complaint: All we got is Brokeback Mountain.
So, in that sense, there was the problem ---it didn't go anywhere. . . .
Absolutely, it didn't go anywhere . . . . Where could it go?
There were only the two of them on the mountain, flying in the euphoric, bitter air, looking down on the hawk's back and the crawling lights of vehicles on the plain below, suspended above ordinary affairs and distant from tame ranch dogs barking in the dark hours. They believed themselves invisible . . . .
Aren't we (and the boys) presented with what amounts to a perfect reality? A perfect solitary world with no outside intrusions, undesirable elements. Part of the conundrum the boys faced is when you've seen (or lived) perfection - where DO you go? How do you go? No wonder they never went back, the vision is destroyed by returning. The best you can do is faithfully maintain a sacred relic (the shirts) as Jack did.
What we got now is Brokeback Mountain. Everything built on that . . .
Like the vision of the Garden of Eden, a vision of perfection on earth.
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Dear Jackster - your underlying theme of the mountain being a Garden of Eden, which is lost against the realities of the world below, always holds up and crosses paths with many topics. But I got a little twitchy when I read that Ang Lee said something similar (hmmm....no, identical) last year, long after you had introduced this theme. So, I go: "Is Ang Lee, er.....logging in and reading.....Jackster?", or is it just you had a line on his thinking from a good reading of Annie and a good take on the movie? Dammit, Jackster, none of them ever seem to quote the rest of us.
Even so, it is true. Where were they to go? From the enchantment, the idyll of the mountain, to the harsh reality of the Real World. And Jack wants, not to go back to the mountain, but to.....the Promised Land, and they ended up wandering in the wilderness for 20 years, harrassed, as were the Israelites, by the spiteful tribes of Amelikites, always blocking their way (and to this day, a code-word in Jewish thinking for mindless obstruction of the right to happiness, once given, ever promised).
"I told you, Jack....it ain't gonna be like that....". Ennis knew the Amelikites well. Jack believed in the promise, inherent in their golden summer.
All we are left with, ourselves, is wondering, as I have with Manhattangirl, if they were very near to the Promised Land, before Jack's death left nothing but a metaphysical arrival, and triumph, rather than a ranch together (complete with Aintfoolin's shotgun and Rottweilers). And we're still here, not knowing.
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Wonderful posts here everywhere by everyone.
Absolutely, it didn't go anywhere . . . . Where could it go?
There were only the two of them on the mountain, flying in the euphoric, bitter air, looking down on the hawk's back and the crawling lights of vehicles on the plain below, suspended above ordinary affairs and distant from tame ranch dogs barking in the dark hours. They believed themselves invisible . . . .
Aren't we (and the boys) presented with what amounts to a perfect reality? A perfect solitary world with no outside intrusions, undesirable elements. Part of the conundrum the boys faced is when you've seen (or lived) perfection - where DO you go? How do you go? No wonder they never went back, the vision is destroyed by returning. The best you can do is faithfully maintain a sacred relic (the shirts) as Jack did.
What we got now is Brokeback Mountain. Everything built on that . . .
Like the vision of the Garden of Eden, a vision of perfection on earth.
Certainly they happened upon the perfect setting, indeed, a "garden of eden". Like Jack says, "Everything is built on that", that experience on that isolated, majestic place, Brokeback Mt., their dreams, their love and all that came with it. good and bad, Just two cowboys with both their heads literally in the clouds, looking down upon ordinary life , they were living an extraordinary exisitence up there, the friendship, the excellent compatability in the bedroll, and a perfect love, all come out of this perfect setting called Brokeback Mt...
I think Jack thought mostly in terms of a continuence of his experience and continued to do so throughout the relationship , a hope to build on what began up there culminating into a sweet life with Ennis., while Ennis saw the experience as a "one shot" experience come to an end. His was a broken road filled with doubt, fear and confusion, therefore he needed distance. Feared what he could not understand or completly accept about himself and his relationship with Jack. He was indeed "stuck", in the bliss of Brokeback Mt. 1963.
But for practically 3/4 of a summer, they lived as close to perfection as it comes. They were alone , one on one up there just being Jack and Ennis , accepting each other as is. Imo , they were each other's best friend AND each other's worst enemy in the way they figured this thing. Like oil and water, they were shaken to blend together by a force of nature while on Brokeback, within that mix, friendship, sex and then love sustained them, then seperated again after they return to the real stagnant world.
Personality did'nt change much, Ennis still stubborn and reserved, Jack still open and full of hope. Outside of that, it was the love and friendship that manifested itself into their seperate lives and kept them coming back together for 20 years. Yes, the Mt. was perfection, but they were not as human beings, yet love found them within their own space and place. My take.
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They were alone , one on one up there just being Jack and Ennis , accepting each other as is.
That was, apparently, part of the paradise, being alone. And in coming down from the mountain, they re-entered the Real World, hostile to their Eden. But am wondering if two lovers ever really can reject the outside world, long-term. I wonder if any love between 2 people can be so complete as to enable complete satisfaction without interaction with the rest of humanity.
There was oppression down from the mountain, but wouldn't they have been stolen from if they had never had the others that developed, in their lives?
Ennis never seeing the love of 2 daughters. Jack never seeing his parents again, and never having at least the chance for Lureen to work out, somehow?
Maybe Eden is a bad place, if you stay there too long. For all the hurts and losses, and the corruption of the Real World, maybe no 2 lovers can completely escape the human race, as maybe we need more than just that one, true love, we need a better world for that love to settle into, mixing with so many others in good will. And, of course, that wasn't there.
The Eden on the mountain would have grown stale, with just the 2 of them alone. They needed a better world to return to. Funny thing about that. Their story, BBM, is a move in that direction, playing its part in altering what is outside of Eden.
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Before anything else, they had to settle the struggle between themselves. Their fear of society, (more Ennis's fear) was played out between the both of them. Didn't the dream of BBM, turned out to be a road block, than a beacon of hope. There were no natural progression in the relationship, from the excitement of a new relationship that turns to the hardwork of keeping the relationship. Everytime they met they pick up where they left off, the "'63 state of mind", as the year past them by.
Personal note: I've been in a relationship now for 8 years, we think of with fondness of how we met, and think of how it felt, but the ensuing years was understanding each others, tears, arguments, love, the hard work, and knowing we both want what we have. Was it like for Jack and Ennis? It was too much time apart, and when together, they spent a lot of time just catching up.
It all came out in the final confrontation, "the damn few times we were together in twenty years". They deeply love each other, but were afraid of that love being rooted, not understanding it already was.
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Like Ennis trying to catch the scent of Jack on the shirt, but only left with the memory of him.
Exactly. Thanks MG.
Many times, memories are the only thing we have left. But some memories die hard. For Ennis, it was the only thing he had left, but it will be with him till the day he dies, apparently...
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How can a relationship grow when lovers are just living off of one moment in time.
Yeah, there's something to that, MG, that the relationship didn't seem to grow, and that was Jack's complaint: All we got is Brokeback Mountain.
So, in that sense, there was the problem ---it didn't go anywhere. Offsetting that, however, were the 20 years, which is nothing to overlook. That they kept coming back to each other, regularly, by a profound commitment, has to mean something. And it did, to them. But there was, as you say, no growth towards that full and complete relationship that would have made for a happy ending. As to why it didn't grow to completion, well, that's what we're still looking over, year after year, as will be those who follow us.
Yes, there is something in what MG noted. For a relationship (friendship or love) to grow, it must not remain static. And this was certainly Jack's point. But think of this another way: even if nothing really changed during the nearly 20 years they were together, that single memory born in the summer of 63 was enough to sustain them throughout the entire time. It shows us the power of that vision -- and I think the memory continued to live on in Ennis even after Jack had passed away. Perhaps it was all the more stronger...
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Wonderful posts here everywhere by everyone.
Absolutely, it didn't go anywhere . . . . Where could it go?
There were only the two of them on the mountain, flying in the euphoric, bitter air, looking down on the hawk's back and the crawling lights of vehicles on the plain below, suspended above ordinary affairs and distant from tame ranch dogs barking in the dark hours. They believed themselves invisible . . . .
Aren't we (and the boys) presented with what amounts to a perfect reality? A perfect solitary world with no outside intrusions, undesirable elements. Part of the conundrum the boys faced is when you've seen (or lived) perfection - where DO you go? How do you go? No wonder they never went back, the vision is destroyed by returning. The best you can do is faithfully maintain a sacred relic (the shirts) as Jack did.
What we got now is Brokeback Mountain. Everything built on that . . .
Like the vision of the Garden of Eden, a vision of perfection on earth.
It is a perfect reality. A reality that remains vivid but is always hermetic. That is why they never came back, IMO. It was the moment when friendship grew into love, and from that love came understanding, if not the courage to live it out under open skies.
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Certainly they happened upon the perfect setting, indeed, a "garden of eden". Like Jack says, "Everything is built on that", that experience on that isolated, majestic place, Brokeback Mt., their dreams, their love and all that came with it. good and bad, Just two cowboys with both their heads literally in the clouds, looking down upon ordinary life , they were living an extraordinary exisitence up there, the friendship, the excellent compatability in the bedroll, and a perfect love, all come out of this perfect setting called Brokeback Mt...
I think Jack thought mostly in terms of a continuence of his experience and continued to do so throughout the relationship , a hope to build on what began up there culminating into a sweet life with Ennis., while Ennis saw the experience as a "one shot" experience come to an end. His was a broken road filled with doubt, fear and confusion, therefore he needed distance. Feared what he could not understand or completly accept about himself and his relationship with Jack. He was indeed "stuck", in the bliss of Brokeback Mt. 1963.
IN a sense, I think Ennis understood in the alley way that the one shot thing had turned into something he deeply cared about, and it tore him apart thinking that he let Jack go.
But for practically 3/4 of a summer, they lived as close to perfection as it comes. They were alone , one on one up there just being Jack and Ennis , accepting each other as is. Imo , they were each other's best friend AND each other's worst enemy in the way they figured this thing. Like oil and water, they were shaken to blend together by a force of nature while on Brokeback, within that mix, friendship, sex and then love sustained them, then seperated again after they return to the real stagnant world.
Personality did'nt change much, Ennis still stubborn and reserved, Jack still open and full of hope. Outside of that, it was the love and friendship that manifested itself into their seperate lives and kept them coming back together for 20 years. Yes, the Mt. was perfection, but they were not as human beings, yet love found them within their own space and place. My take.
I think all their trips to the mountains served as memorials/commemorations of the ideal of 63. They tried to repacture the essence, even though they understood that they could never go back. As I said in the previous post, the line that divided friendship and love was crossed, and each of them understood that as much as they cared for each other on many levels, the wareness that a line had been crossed had robbed them of some unique innocence.
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Tony, I’m sorry I seem to have veered this off your topic here a bit - but I really love what everyone has written here (you, tpe, MG, ain’t, BT, LC) about the vision of perfection up on the mountain. What a great parable Annie (and Ang, et al) has left us. I hope my use of the term “parable’ won’t offend, but it seems to me that is what it truly is and why it is we are all still in the very real grip of this story years and years on. It speaks to our daily lives, our imagined lives, our wished for lives, and our feared for lives.
The enjoyment in reading what and how you all see and understand this story is immense.
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Before anything else, they had to settle the struggle between themselves. Their fear of society, (more Ennis's fear) was played out between the both of them. Didn't the dream of BBM, turned out to be a road block, than a beacon of hope. There were no natural progression in the relationship, from the excitement of a new relationship that turns to the hardwork of keeping the relationship. Everytime they met they pick up where they left off, the "'63 state of mind", as the year past them by.
Personal note: I've been in a relationship now for 8 years, we think of with fondness of how we met, and think of how it felt, but the ensuing years was understanding each others, tears, arguments, love, the hard work, and knowing we both want what we have. Was it like for Jack and Ennis? It was too much time apart, and when together, they spent a lot of time just catching up.
It all came out in the final confrontation, "the damn few times we were together in twenty years". They deeply love each other, but were afraid of that love being rooted, not understanding it already was.
There is never enough time, to be in all the topics, and post all my thoughts. I love the discussion in this topic, and I love this in particular, manhattangirl. Thank you for sharing a personal and deeply meaningful part of yourself.
I love the image of Brokeback Mountain as the roadblock on the journey of their relationship to discover each other. As we discussed before, one of the major problems between Ennis and Jack was their lack of verbal communication, even though they understood instinctive how each other felt, often times, they never truly discussed their lives together, except for the oblique conversations by the river. They never struggled together, as you said. They simply hid in the mountains together. Jack wanted to get out into the real world, but Ennis was too afraid. They hit this roadblock. What to do?
I believe every relationship, as Tony asserted in the topic title...progresses and evolves. And as tpe pointed out, cannot remain static. A stagnant relationship will not last as soon as someone evolves to a higher plane, and that is what love is suppose to do, lifting us higher. So a stagnant relationship is not a loving relationship. It has to change with love, not stay the same with fear. But the change, I think, has to come with love, as the two shirts did for Ennis, and not with force, as the last meeting turned into a confrontation. How we evolve a relationship is just as important as whether it moves along its natural course or not.
JMHO.
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I hope my use of the term “parable’ won’t offend, but it seems to me that is what it truly is and why it is we are all still in the very real grip of this story years and years on. It speaks to our daily lives, our imagined lives, our wished for lives, and our feared for lives.
Dear Jackster - I had never thought of the story as a parable, but it does have those elements there that make it so very real on a day-to-day basis, which is essential to a parable. Someone on another thread has criticized the movie for selling a "Hollywood" version of love that is destructive and phony, in that it is unattainable and unrealistically romantic.
But the various displays of realism (from Ennis kicking the box behind the girls on the swing set, to Jack's failure with the rodeo clown, to his not catching the keys tossed to him by his father-in-law), all add up to day-to-day humanity, which is part of a parable's realism. It may be the epic saga, which CAN be romanticized has been combined with the parable genre and THAT's what kicked our hind parts.
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For a relationship (friendship or love) to grow, it must not remain static. And this was certainly Jack's point.
Several people are agreeing, here, that relationships must not stay the same. If this means adapting as things come along, am sure that is so, but if what is meant is some kind of "ever-onward progress", like there HAS to be change, am dragging my heels on this one. Am a great believer in, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
As for quoting Thomas above, yes, Jack wanted change. Of a certain kind, to a ranch for the two of them. It's just as likely, having gotten that change, he then would want....stasis. Stability.
Am not splitting hairs, here. Change can be best followed by settling down and enjoying what has been achieved. Adapting is normal. But always trying for better, always supposing there IS better, is a modernism that leaves us always discontent. IMO, if Jack got his ranch with Ennis, he'd want the same sense of forever that was the illusion on the mountain, but could be found as real, at last. No further change needed. Except Ennis should occasionally bottom, to annoy Aintfoolin. Other than that ---stasis, IMO, is what Jack would then want.
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Yes, there is something in what MG noted. For a relationship (friendship or love) to grow, it must not remain static. And this was certainly Jack's point. But think of this another way: even if nothing really changed during the nearly 20 years they were together, that single memory born in the summer of 63 was enough to sustain them throughout the entire time. It shows us the power of that vision -- and I think the memory continued to live on in Ennis even after Jack had passed away. Perhaps it was all the more stronger...
I totally agree, Thomas. Gorgeous post. I quote word by word. I think that that vision was so powerful that Jack wanted his ashes to be scattered there, not where his mama was gonna be, not in the familiar place with Lureen or Bobby, his son, but up there in BBM, a place where he spent a real little time, and that place was his favorite one. 20 years of relationship, 39 years of life, and his favorite place was again one where he only spent what? 2 months? That was his favorite place because that was his favorite memory, BBM and Ennis in BBM, and the sweet, free, caring Ennis of BBM. For me Jack wanting his ashes there is as powerful as the shirts!! He spoke about BBM to Lureen a lot of times, he kept dreaming about that place, he remember clearly that DE with all its details. Jack kept living in BBM, even though he left 20 years ago, and I think that for Ennis it was the same. So you're right friend. The proof is that Ennis dreamt about Jack when Jack died. But he didn't dream about Jack when he was 20, or 25, or 30 or 38. He dreamt about 19 years old Jack, and he dreamt that they were around a campfire up in BBM!! That's say it all for me. Amazing how the memory of that tiny bit of time in a mountain sustained them throughout a lifetime and beyond. Hey, I think that was love, right? :\'( :\'( :\'(
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Several people are agreeing, here, that relationships must not stay the same. If this means adapting as things come along, am sure that is so, but if what is meant is some kind of "ever-onward progress", like there HAS to be change, am dragging my heels on this one. Am a great believer in, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
As for quoting Thomas above, yes, Jack wanted change. Of a certain kind, to a ranch for the two of them. It's just as likely, having gotten that change, he then would want....stasis. Stability.
Am not splitting hairs, here. Change can be best followed by settling down and enjoying what has been achieved. Adapting is normal. But always trying for better, always supposing there IS better, is a modernism that leaves us always discontent. IMO, if Jack got his ranch with Ennis, he'd want the same sense of forever that was the illusion on the mountain, but could be found as real, at last. No further change needed. Except Ennis should occasionally bottom, to annoy Aintfoolin. Other than that ---stasis, IMO, is what Jack would then want.
Agree too friend, because in a way Jack didn't want change. I mean, you can think that he wanted change because he wanted to live with Ennis and quit those fishing trips...but for me he just wanted what he got in BBM. Up there he lived with Ennis, he saw Ennis every day and he almost slept with Ennis every night, so then, later, after the reunion, he just wanted back what they had in BBM. The change had been precisely marry and get away from each other. Jack wanted, uh, you say stasis, so that, stasis..he wanted the things just to be like they were in BBM and don't change ever. JMHO!! ^f^
Did I express myself well? ::) ::) I hate my English. :-\\
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Yes. :^^)
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Several people are agreeing, here, that relationships must not stay the same. If this means adapting as things come along, am sure that is so, but if what is meant is some kind of "ever-onward progress", like there HAS to be change, am dragging my heels on this one. Am a great believer in, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
As for quoting Thomas above, yes, Jack wanted change. Of a certain kind, to a ranch for the two of them. It's just as likely, having gotten that change, he then would want....stasis. Stability.
Am not splitting hairs, here. Change can be best followed by settling down and enjoying what has been achieved. Adapting is normal. But always trying for better, always supposing there IS better, is a modernism that leaves us always discontent. IMO, if Jack got his ranch with Ennis, he'd want the same sense of forever that was the illusion on the mountain, but could be found as real, at last. No further change needed. Except Ennis should occasionally bottom, to annoy Aintfoolin. Other than that ---stasis, IMO, is what Jack would then want.
I can't help but think this is like a loving engaged couple and the woman planning on a life together, and the man, saying "Hey why change things now, it's going OK?" The woman will wait, until their final confrontation. Relationship either evolve, change, grow or die. " You didn't want it Ennis, so what we got now is Brokeback Mountain, everything is built on that." Things may not have changed between them, but the words were spoken, heartfelt, gut wrenching.
We see Jack's transformation as the years went by, his changing appearance, and his demeanor, and the growing fear of his own life has reached a status quo. He needed that "sweet life", and when it didn't happen, he drank and probably relived that dozy embrace over and over, he was stuck on Brokeback, but not by choice.
Jack understood Ennis that first summer to the final confrontation, he knew this might be far as they would get, but then just maybe......Ennis would always pull him back to believing.
I feel we underestimate Jack sometime, he got it, he understood, he took the shirts, he realized that it might be all he would get. JMO
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Several people are agreeing, here, that relationships must not stay the same. If this means adapting as things come along, am sure that is so, but if what is meant is some kind of "ever-onward progress", like there HAS to be change, am dragging my heels on this one. Am a great believer in, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
As for quoting Thomas above, yes, Jack wanted change. Of a certain kind, to a ranch for the two of them. It's just as likely, having gotten that change, he then would want....stasis. Stability.
Am not splitting hairs, here. Change can be best followed by settling down and enjoying what has been achieved. Adapting is normal. But always trying for better, always supposing there IS better, is a modernism that leaves us always discontent. IMO, if Jack got his ranch with Ennis, he'd want the same sense of forever that was the illusion on the mountain, but could be found as real, at last. No further change needed. Except Ennis should occasionally bottom, to annoy Aintfoolin. Other than that ---stasis, IMO, is what Jack would then want.
Hello Tony. I was deciding yesterday whether or not to say that a changing relationship doesn't mean moving forward. I wanted to say yesterday that healthy relationships move back and forth, always testing the boundaries of the people involved.
I certainly felt that the Last Confrontation was necessary. The problem was not that it occurred; the problem was more about such confrontations not occurring more frequently. As they say in the art of raising plants and flowers, if you are not killing some of them, then you are not trying hard enough. I think some of us here have voiced the opinion that perhaps Jack should have confronted Ennis early on in the relationship -- it could have brought things to a head.
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I totally agree, Thomas. Gorgeous post. I quote word by word. I think that that vision was so powerful that Jack wanted his ashes to be scattered there, not where his mama was gonna be, not in the familiar place with Lureen or Bobby, his son, but up there in BBM, a place where he spent a real little time, and that place was his favorite one. 20 years of relationship, 39 years of life, and his favorite place was again one where he only spent what? 2 months? That was his favorite place because that was his favorite memory, BBM and Ennis in BBM, and the sweet, free, caring Ennis of BBM. For me Jack wanting his ashes there is as powerful as the shirts!! He spoke about BBM to Lureen a lot of times, he kept dreaming about that place, he remember clearly that DE with all its details. Jack kept living in BBM, even though he left 20 years ago, and I think that for Ennis it was the same. So you're right friend. The proof is that Ennis dreamt about Jack when Jack died. But he didn't dream about Jack when he was 20, or 25, or 30 or 38. He dreamt about 19 years old Jack, and he dreamt that they were around a campfire up in BBM!! That's say it all for me. Amazing how the memory of that tiny bit of time in a mountain sustained them throughout a lifetime and beyond. Hey, I think that was love, right? :\'( :\'( :\'(
Thanks Tammy. :)
I think that Jack's wish about his ashes has something to say about the role of his love, sex, and also friendship with Ennis. It showed that in spite of all the disappointments with Ennis later on, Jack understood that there was something more than just sex and the sensual element that kept them togeter -- it was a sense of understanding each other in a way that only deep friends can do -- exceeding even the understanding shared by casual lovers. In short, what I am saying is that although they continued to love each other throughout the rest of their lives, I claim that love had become less physical -- less sensual -- and had moved to something akin to friendship. I guess this is what many people mean when they refer to partners growing old in their love. For in spite of all the misunderstandings and inevitable heartaches, they are secure in the knowledge that the love will stay on even as they move apart.
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I can't help but think this is like a loving engaged couple and the woman planning on a life together, and the man, saying "Hey why change things now, it's going OK?" The woman will wait, until their final confrontation. Relationship either evolve, change, grow or die. " You didn't want it Ennis, so what we got now is Brokeback Mountain, everything is built on that." Things may not have changed between them, but the words were spoken, heartfelt, gut wrenching.
We see Jack's transformation as the years went by, his changing appearance, and his demeanor, and the growing fear of his own life has reached a status quo. He needed that "sweet life", and when it didn't happen, he drank and probably relived that dozy embrace over and over, he was stuck on Brokeback, but not by choice.
Jack understood Ennis that first summer to the final confrontation, he knew this might be far as they would get, but then just maybe......Ennis would always pull him back to believing.
I feel we underestimate Jack sometime, he got it, he understood, he took the shirts, he realized that it might be all he would get. JMO
I don't feel anyone is underestimating Jack here. He "got it" as you say, understood that this may not go in the direction he wanted in Signal and of course he hoped for the best after Brokeback. He felt the dozy embrace, read the reunion kisses perfectly ,saw Ennis literally change before his eyes in SNIT. He knew Ennis in ways Ennis did'nt even know himself.
The thing is Ennis made Jack feel he was CAPABLE of change, by all means. Ennis was doing alot of things wrong, yes but he was doing alot of things right.
Their relationship did evolved, feelings grew, lives were changed ,and both were imo aware of what had happened, but Brokeback continued to cast a giant shadow over the relationship in many ways. Each of them dealt personally with their profound experiences up there, what they came away from it feeling about each other and themselves, the roles in which they saw themselves. All the elements of a good relationship were there as I see it, love, desire, friendship, a longing to be together , but in order for change to take place, there must be communication. Lance spoke of it briefly in an above post. Imo, nothing can replace good old-fashioned verbal communication. Every lover wants to hear it, "I love you", "I need you" , indeed they were saying it to each other only in gestures and actions which I don't feel was enough for Jack after some time. It became almost essential for him.
Jack knew Ennis was certainly no Shakespere, he was'nt asking for that, however, any way Ennis could put it , in his own words, would have been acceptable. Jack needed to hear Ennis's thoughts , what he expressed so well through actions and gestures alone. Words have the power to change, as we all saw in the confrontation , though this was a negative ,angry , frustrated Jack, perhaps thru that frustration, had he thrown in an a good *god-da--mit, I love you Ennis* , maybe, like a good meal, this would have stuck with Ennis, nourished his undeniable appetite for for Jack in ways never before presented to him and helped him to break down the walls of resistance. What would Ennis think about that? and what more could Jack say or do? Perhaps those words would'nt have made a difference, but at least it would have left Ennis something to chew on and Jack could have walked away in good consious, knowing he had said them.
Jack gave Ennis an understanding of what he felt was going on, certainly within his right after so much sacrifice, . Fear held Ennis captive, Jack loved Ennis, therefore Jack was held captive also.
I choose to believe that Ennis really wished he could find a way to change, but there was so much he feared for the both of them, he did'nt know how to. Jack had waited long enough and still there was this one little tiny step left for Ennis to take and Jack would have what Tony said so well ...Stability. The sweet life. All the consistent perks of Brokeback 1963, Ennis by his side ...without the time limits. I think he felt, with everything they did have, togetherness would breed change. Maybe not all at once but over time... he could let it be.
His hope was that one day Ennis could change , cross over that line , take that final step, break free of the chains of fear, unlock the cage in which it held them and take the leap to freedom with him. They were so close before fate intervened and took Jack , leaving Ennis with the tragic reality of never having expressed his love for his friend and lover of 20 years and the difference it might have made. Ironically, thru the shirts, Jack had the last say in the matter. They said everything Ennis so desperatly needed to hear. They spoke of a remebrance that the same love they found on Brokeback, is the same love that's always been, as then , now, and forever. My take.Thanx.
Hey Tony,
There is very little Ennis could do to annoy me for very long, but bottom Ennis...? well now your toying with my fantasy... Nah, just kiddin. (t) ;) %)
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Their relationship did evolved, feelings grew, lives were changed ,and both were imo aware of what had happened, but Brokeback continued to cast a giant shadow over the relationship in many ways...
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They spoke of a remebrance that the same love they found on Brokeback, is the same love that's always been, as then , now, and forever. My take.Thanx.
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I highlight here points that I find to be particularly insightful to me. Thanks AF.
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Amazing post AF. You always got me open mouth and wide eyes. I love everything you said. Thank you. ^f^
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I don't feel anyone is underestimating Jack here. He "got it" as you say, understood that this may not go in the direction he wanted in Signal and of course he hoped for the best after Brokeback. He felt the dozy embrace, read the reunion kisses perfectly ,saw Ennis literally change before his eyes in SNIT. He knew Ennis in ways Ennis did'nt even know himself.
The thing is Ennis made Jack feel he was CAPABLE of change, by all means. Ennis was doing alot of things wrong, yes but he was doing alot of things right.
Their relationship did evolved, feelings grew, lives were changed ,and both were imo aware of what had happened, but Brokeback continued to cast a giant shadow over the relationship in many ways. Each of them dealt personally with their profound experiences up there, what they came away from it feeling about each other and themselves, the roles in which they saw themselves. All the elements of a good relationship were there as I see it, love, desire, friendship, a longing to be together , but in order for change to take place, there must be communication. Lance spoke of it briefly in an above post. Imo, nothing can replace good old-fashioned verbal communication. Every lover wants to hear it, "I love you", "I need you" , indeed they were saying it to each other only in gestures and actions which I don't feel was enough for Jack after some time. It became almost essential for him.
Jack knew Ennis was certainly no Shakespere, he was'nt asking for that, however, any way Ennis could put it , in his own words, would have been acceptable. Jack needed to hear Ennis's thoughts , what he expressed so well through actions and gestures alone. Words have the power to change, as we all saw in the confrontation , though this was a negative ,angry , frustrated Jack, perhaps thru that frustration, had he thrown in an a good *god-da--mit, I love you Ennis* , maybe, like a good meal, this would have stuck with Ennis, nourished his undeniable appetite for for Jack in ways never before presented to him and helped him to break down the walls of resistance. What would Ennis think about that? and what more could Jack say or do? Perhaps those words would'nt have made a difference, but at least it would have left Ennis something to chew on and Jack could have walked away in good consious, knowing he had said them.
Jack gave Ennis an understanding of what he felt was going on, certainly within his right after so much sacrifice, . Fear held Ennis captive, Jack loved Ennis, therefore Jack was held captive also.
I choose to believe that Ennis really wished he could find a way to change, but there was so much he feared for the both of them, he did'nt know how to. Jack had waited long enough and still there was this one little tiny step left for Ennis to take and Jack would have what Tony said so well ...Stability. The sweet life. All the consistent perks of Brokeback 1963, Ennis by his side ...without the time limits. I think he felt, with everything they did have, togetherness would breed change. Maybe not all at once but over time... he could let it be.
His hope was that one day Ennis could change , cross over that line , take that final step, break free of the chains of fear, unlock the cage in which it held them and take the leap to freedom with him. They were so close before fate intervened and took Jack , leaving Ennis with the tragic reality of never having expressed his love for his friend and lover of 20 years and the difference it might have made. Ironically, thru the shirts, Jack had the last say in the matter. They said everything Ennis so desperatly needed to hear. They spoke of a remebrance that the same love they found on Brokeback, is the same love that's always been, as then , now, and forever. My take.Thanx.
Hey Tony,
There is very little Ennis could do to annoy me for very long, but bottom Ennis...? well now your toying with my fantasy... Nah, just kiddin. (t) ;) %)
All you said is true and beautifully said. IMO, Jack couldn't be the one to slap Ennis in the back of the head and say, "hey I love you". I always felt Jack tiptoed around it because, deep inside he knew or felt, Ennis really never accepted the fact, that he was a man. I always wondered why he kept the secret of the shirts, why he always returned to Ennis, even after the nameless lovers, his taking up with Randall.
Ennis may have feared society because his relationship with Jack, Jack feared Ennis because of the relationship with him. Jack could have told Ennis he love him till he was blue in the face. It had to be Ennis to say it out loud, That's was the one thing I think Jack needed, the "sweet life" was just that way of saying I love you.
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All you said is true and beautifully said. IMO, Jack couldn't be the one to slap Ennis in the back of the head and say, "hey I love you". I always felt Jack tiptoed around it because, deep inside he knew or felt, Ennis really never accepted the fact, that he was a man. I always wondered why he kept the secret of the shirts, why he always returned to Ennis, even after the nameless lovers, his taking up with Randall.
Ennis may have feared society because his relationship with Jack, Jack feared Ennis because of the relationship with him. Jack could have told Ennis he love him till he was blue in the face. It had to be Ennis to say it out loud, That's was the one thing I think Jack needed, the "sweet life" was just that way of saying I love you.
I do think that Jack held back because he felt that this was how Ennis wanted it, and I do believe that he was justified in doing so. Verbally, it seemed like very little was openly discussed, except during the more confrontational moments. As I had said earlier, I do feel that their love sort of transformed into a deeper form of love cum friendship, which is certainlu much more than just sensual love.
IMO, Jack never told Ennis about the shirts because he was not sure how Ennis would have reacted. On the surface, it looks like a form of sexual fetishism on Jack's part. But I think it is much more than that. The blood of course had everything to do with it -- it was like a compact, a love cum friendship sealed in blood. For Jack to have revealed this to Ennis would have been to expose himself completely, and Jack was unsure if Ennis really wanted to see/acknowledge everything that openly. So it certainly ties with your comment about Jack tiptoeing around Ennis. Jack had learned that this was how Ennis wanted it.
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Dear Thomas - it's possible Jack kept the bloody shirts because they were tangible proof of love, from Ennis. In the "Fear of Love" thread, I may have made too much of the fight on Brokeback Mountain, or may not have. That Ennis reacted violently, perhaps to their separation, was a hope Jack could cling to, that he had finally gotten a rise out of someone. Someone cared enough to be enraged. But to test that, for him, risked finding out that, no, the fight was not over love, over separating, but something else. The solution was to take no risks, and keep those shirts, as a constant hope....there was unusual, tangled, difficult to explain proof, but proof all the same....Ennis had loved him. A possible reading.
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Yeah, like tony said those shirts were a proof of Ennis love too. I mean, those shirts remind Jack of that precious time in the mountain when Ennis was free to love him.
I've always thought that he didn't tell Ennis because maybe Ennis at first wouldn't understand and then maybe would laugh at him for being such a silly boy, keeping shirts like treasures in a total romantic way. But I think you all saw a deeper meaning than what I saw. I always wondered why he didn't tell Ennis about it in the reunion after those 4 years separated; and then I wondered why he didn't tell Ennis in some of those fishing trips, because maybe Ennis would have changed like he did after seeing them when Jack died. But Jack couldn't know that, couldn't imagine how deeply Ennis was moved by that discovering. I bet Jack thought Ennis would never understand it.
The fact that Jack never burned those shirts talks to me about endless hope and devotion. He kept hoping even in the worst moments, and at the end, even if he decided to quit, he kept "adoring" Ennis in the altar of his room through those shirts; because when a relationship ends that doesn't mean that love is over too.
I'm marveled at Jack every time.
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I do think that Jack held back because he felt that this was how Ennis wanted it, and I do believe that he was justified in doing so. Verbally, it seemed like very little was openly discussed, except during the more confrontational moments. As I had said earlier, I do feel that their love sort of transformed into a deeper form of love cum friendship, which is certainlu much more than just sensual love.
IMO, Jack never told Ennis about the shirts because he was not sure how Ennis would have reacted. On the surface, it looks like a form of sexual fetishism on Jack's part. But I think it is much more than that. The blood of course had everything to do with it -- it was like a compact, a love cum friendship sealed in blood. For Jack to have revealed this to Ennis would have been to expose himself completely, and Jack was unsure if Ennis really wanted to see/acknowledge everything that openly. So it certainly ties with your comment about Jack tiptoeing around Ennis. Jack had learned that this was how Ennis wanted it.
The blood on the shirts to me is as close physically Jack could have Ennis near him, not to get too religious the body and blood of Christ comes to mind. IMO, Ennis always had Jack. Jack was never that far away from Ennis. Jack sought him out the following summer, but after four years,Jack still needed him,and went looking for him. When Jack said "I wish I could quit you", he never did, not one time, he couldn't, he belonged to Ennis.
That's why I feel, it wasn't was up to Jack to say the words, it was on Ennis to acknowledge the "thing" was love, and to accept Jack, to look him in the face finally and say this is us, this who we are, and I love you.
A lot to to ask of someone as damaged as Ennis, but he got it finally.
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Dear Thomas - it's possible Jack kept the bloody shirts because they were tangible proof of love, from Ennis. In the "Fear of Love" thread, I may have made too much of the fight on Brokeback Mountain, or may not have. That Ennis reacted violently, perhaps to their separation, was a hope Jack could cling to, that he had finally gotten a rise out of someone. Someone cared enough to be enraged. But to test that, for him, risked finding out that, no, the fight was not over love, over separating, but something else. The solution was to take no risks, and keep those shirts, as a constant hope....there was unusual, tangled, difficult to explain proof, but proof all the same....Ennis had loved him. A possible reading.
The shirts also epitomized the fact that loving Ennis was a struggle, and Jack probably also needed a reminder of this throughout the years.
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Yeah, like tony said those shirts were a proof of Ennis love too. I mean, those shirts remind Jack of that precious time in the mountain when Ennis was free to love him.
I've always thought that he didn't tell Ennis because maybe Ennis at first wouldn't understand and then maybe would laugh at him for being such a silly boy, keeping shirts like treasures in a total romantic way. But I think you all saw a deeper meaning than what I saw. I always wondered why he didn't tell Ennis about it in the reunion after those 4 years separated; and then I wondered why he didn't tell Ennis in some of those fishing trips, because maybe Ennis would have changed like he did after seeing them when Jack died. But Jack couldn't know that, couldn't imagine how deeply Ennis was moved by that discovering. I bet Jack thought Ennis would never understand it.
Well, wnat you said here is also very true, Tammy. I don't think we have one single reason for why Jack kept this to himself over the years.
The fact that Jack never burned those shirts talks to me about endless hope and devotion. He kept hoping even in the worst moments, and at the end, even if he decided to quit, he kept "adoring" Ennis in the altar of his room through those shirts; because when a relationship ends that doesn't mean that love is over too.
I'm marveled at Jack every time.
This exactly what I mean when I say that loving Ennis epitomized a struggle for Jack. :)
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The blood on the shirts to me is as close physically Jack could have Ennis near him, not to get too religious the body and blood of Christ comes to mind. IMO, Ennis always had Jack. Jack was never that far away from Ennis. Jack sought him out the following summer, but after four years,Jack still needed him,and went looking for him. When Jack said "I wish I could quit you", he never did, not one time, he couldn't, he belonged to Ennis.
That's why I feel, it wasn't was up to Jack to say the words, it was on Ennis to acknowledge the "thing" was love, and to accept Jack, to look him in the face finally and say this is us, this who we are, and I love you.
A lot to to ask of someone as damaged as Ennis, but he got it finally.
Blood has always had a sacred as well as a profane connotation. Blood as food is forbidden in many religions, yet sacrificial blood is also the sacred elixir that binds parties to a covenant. The connotation is therefore both forbidden and sacred at the same time...
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Baby Tammy has asked everybody to look at a music video of the Dozy Embrace, as she loves it so much. So do I, but I went to the SS and the changes in the film, and, for me, there is no question ---- Jack was wrong.
Annie left a lot of open space in her story, and she has Ennis hugging Jack from behind, no sexuality, and Jack's conclusion was that Ennis would not do that face-to-face because "...he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack that he held." And maybe they'd never get much farther than that.
That's Jack's sense of the Dozy Embrace. It is not given as a fact by Annie, only as his perception. And he was wrong.
Ennis knew who he was holding, and clung to him and rocked him sweetly. In the SS, he is humming softly, in the film, a nursery song. And he spoke to him, chiding him for sleeping on his feet like a horse. Those interactions show an active, conscious awareness on Ennis' part as to whom he was holding and loving on.
But if Jack was wrong in his conclusion, and he was, we are still left, then, with an extremely important insight into Jack's thinking - he did not believe Ennis was accepting him as his lover. And these misperceptions plague both of them throughout the story. Each was aware of extreme love for the other. Neither saw sufficient proof that love was fully returned. They kept failing to read the non-verbal signals, which were all either were capable of.
So friendship - they knew they had a once-in-a-lifetime friendship. Sex - they darned sure knew they'd worked that out. But Love? They had no certainty of the other. The same shy concealment of the shirts is directly tied to Jack's inability to accept the Dozy Embrace as meant for him and him only. Jack was wrong. The Dozy Embrace wasn't a half-measure from Ennis, all Jack could hope for or get. It was one of the most loving embraces there could be, and if Ennis could not face him, it was not because he denied it was Jack, it was because he would have broken down completely. Ennis risked it all, there, clinging to Jack, and rocking him protectively and humming. My apologies for no IMHO on this one. Jack was wrong. Ennis loved him.
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Baby Tammy has asked everybody to look at a music video of the Dozy Embrace, as she loves it so much. So do I, but I went to the SS and the changes in the film, and, for me, there is no question ---- Jack was wrong.
Annie left a lot of open space in her story, and she has Ennis hugging Jack from behind, no sexuality, and Jack's conclusion was that Ennis would not do that face-to-face because "...he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack that he held." And maybe they'd never get much farther than that.
That's Jack's sense of the Dozy Embrace. It is not given as a fact by Annie, only as his perception. And he was wrong.
Ennis knew who he was holding, and clung to him and rocked him sweetly. In the SS, he is humming softly, in the film, a nursery song. And he spoke to him, chiding him for sleeping on his feet like a horse. Those interactions show an active, conscious awareness on Ennis' part as to whom he was holding and loving on.
But if Jack was wrong in his conclusion, and he was, we are still left, then, with an extremely important insight into Jack's thinking - he did not believe Ennis was accepting him as his lover. And these misperceptions plague both of them throughout the story. Each was aware of extreme love for the other. Neither saw sufficient proof that love was fully returned. They kept failing to read the non-verbal signals, which were all either were capable of.
So friendship - they knew they had a once-in-a-lifetime friendship. Sex - they darned sure knew they'd worked that out. But Love? They had no certainty of the other. The same shy concealment of the shirts is directly tied to Jack's inability to accept the Dozy Embrace as meant for him and him only. Jack was wrong. The Dozy Embrace wasn't a half-measure from Ennis, all Jack could hope for or get. It was one of the most loving embraces there could be, and if Ennis could not face him, it was not because he denied it was Jack, it was because he would have broken down completely. Ennis risked it all, there, clinging to Jack, and rocking him protectively and humming. My apologies for no IMHO on this one. Jack was wrong. Ennis loved him.
Once again, my dear friend, you amaze me. Jack was wrong?! Ennis did not deny his love for Jack?! What?
:s) If, as you said, Jack's perception of the dozy embrace was wrong, and in fact, the entire problem with the relationship was based on this misconception, then it seems to make sense of the lack of Jack trying to propose the cow and calf operation to Ennis again. I have always wondered why this was never mentioned again. How can Jack give up on a sweet dream so easily?!
Given your insight, I would speculate that somehow, Jack always felt Ennis did not accept their love for each other ("I ain't queer....a one shot thing...) so he always operated within the relationship with that assumption. His proposal for the cow and calf operation, then, took real courage, and faith. When Ennis talked about Earl, he felt "shot down" once again. When Ennis rejected him after the divorce, it was further proof that in his mind, Ennis did not love him, but only used him for "fun". Did Ennis use him for fun only? Was the misery and divorce that plagued Ennis the result of a man who used his best friend only for fun? I think Ennis knew, and knew for sure after Cassie in the diner, that it was not just fun, but love. It may be that Jack thought it was just fun, or even verbalized this to Ennis on more than one occasion, to assure Ennis that it wasn't serious, so as not to scare Ennis off. Afterall, is this not the modus operandi that Christian used to get his men in Latter Days? So, instead of the speech that Aaron gave to Christian, Jack got the tale of Earl. It would seem the misconception was justified due to Ennis' own inability to articulate his own feelings.
I think, with some reservations, that I agree with you on the point that Jack was wrong, that Ennis indeed was aware of his love for Jack, but I disagree that he was wrong to NOT see Ennis' love. I think, Ennis had to bear some responsibility to his lack of demonstration of his love. It was a two-way street, block by gridlock of social pressure, personality, and circumstance. If Ennis did not have Alma in the summer of '63, I have no doubt that the story would be a lot different.
Thanks, Tony, for an interesting angle. And I think Jack was justified in his misconception. It was the reason for the twenty years of too much driving and too little time.
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Hmm, it's an interesting take, but I still disagree. I don't think that Jack was wrong. I also don't think that he was judging Ennis, just acknowledging what he was capable of. Of course Ennis knew who he was holding. Through all their times together over the years, he knew who he was with. But even so, he resisted acknowledging all of the aspects of their relationship, trying to tell himself it was just "this thing", that existed somehow outside of everything else.
And I don't think that he was necessarily aware on the deepest level that what he felt for Jack was love (I think that realization wasn't fully formed until after Jack's death) but I think he was uncomfortably aware that what Jack felt for him was something strong and outside his range of understanding. I think that Ennis was able to consciously demonstrate his love, even while trying to hide from the knowledge of it - he quit job after job, he endured a near poverty life style, fought against his own self-censure, and still showed up every time to be with Jack.
I agree that neither felt secure about the other's love and each did his share of putting on a brave face and treading only where he felt safe to do so. The final confrontation revealed some of each man's insecurities.
I also agree that the dozy embrace "was one of the most loving embraces there could be" and maybe Ennis was able to be that demonstrative and revealing of his affections precisely because it allowed him to maintain that thin barrier. And I don't think that Jack saw it as a half measure from Ennis. I think he recognized that it was a revealing moment, a dropping of Ennis's defenses and this is why he cherished the memory so deeply. And why he always longed to reconnect with those rare, open moments.
I just don't think that Jack believed that Ennis was using him for fun either, despite what he said during the final confrontation. I think he was frustrated by the idea that Ennis didn't need what they had the way he did, and he was also willing to acknowledge that he himself needed to be able to be with someone that way in a way that Ennis clearly didn't understand. "You have no idea how bad it gets", recognizing that in this anyway, they have a different center of gravity, if you will.
As to why Jack didn't pitch the cow & calf operation again, we need to remember that he first proposed that sweet life in 1967, and Ennis gave him a very compelling reason as to why it couldn't happen. So he made the concession of getting together once in a while out in the middle of nowhere, both because he thought that Ennis was worth it and because he presumably thought that in time he might be able to change Ennis's mind. As is evidenced by the divorce scene, where he shows up certain that Ennis is ready to make a life together. And remember, that was in 1975. So the timeline fits a wait and hope philosophy on Jack's part, and once the divorce debacle took place, it's clear why Jack wouldn't bring his pitch back to the plate again. I'm not sure it's as much about how he thinks Ennis feels as it is about what Ennis would be willing to do.
So I don't think that Jack was wrong about Ennis because I see his reflection of that moment a little differently. So it follows that I can't see his 'mistake' as a factor in the problems they had in their relationship either. But I think that a lot of the points brought up by Tony and lancecowboy while looking at that angle are valid and fit with my view, both of their relationship and some of the issues that plagued it.
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Baby Tammy has asked everybody to look at a music video of the Dozy Embrace, as she loves it so much. So do I, but I went to the SS and the changes in the film, and, for me, there is no question ---- Jack was wrong.
Annie left a lot of open space in her story, and she has Ennis hugging Jack from behind, no sexuality, and Jack's conclusion was that Ennis would not do that face-to-face because "...he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack that he held." And maybe they'd never get much farther than that.
That's Jack's sense of the Dozy Embrace. It is not given as a fact by Annie, only as his perception. And he was wrong.
Ennis knew who he was holding, and clung to him and rocked him sweetly. In the SS, he is humming softly, in the film, a nursery song. And he spoke to him, chiding him for sleeping on his feet like a horse. Those interactions show an active, conscious awareness on Ennis' part as to whom he was holding and loving on.
But if Jack was wrong in his conclusion, and he was, we are still left, then, with an extremely important insight into Jack's thinking - he did not believe Ennis was accepting him as his lover. And these misperceptions plague both of them throughout the story. Each was aware of extreme love for the other. Neither saw sufficient proof that love was fully returned. They kept failing to read the non-verbal signals, which were all either were capable of. So friendship - they knew they had a once-in-a-lifetime friendship. Sex - they darned sure knew they'd worked that out. But Love? They had no certainty of the other. The same shy concealment of the shirts is directly tied to Jack's inability to accept the Dozy Embrace as meant for him and him only. Jack was wrong. The Dozy Embrace wasn't a half-measure from Ennis, all Jack could hope for or get. It was one of the most loving embraces there could be, and if Ennis could not face him, it was not because he denied it was Jack, it was because he would have broken down completely. Ennis risked it all, there, clinging to Jack, and rocking him protectively and humming. My apologies for no IMHO on this one. Jack was wrong. Ennis loved him.
Jack wasn't wrong, I feel at this point (dozy embrace), he fell in love with Ennis. There is a point when we realize we are in love, and this was Jack's. Ennis embraced him, held him, showed him openly love that no one else had, (except maybe his mother), and Ennis took Jack with the same love, shown by his mother, the non sexual, unconditional love both men craved, and found in each other.
Why do you think that Jack held on to this memory, it wasn't the FNIT, SNIT, or even the reunion, it was that moment of unguarded openness, and love. And when did he remember this moment? The final confrontation, when things are seemingly falling apart, and all things unsaid were being said. No Tony, Jack was not wrong, he was in love, in its purest sense, and wanted desperately to return to it, hold on to it.
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Baby Tammy has asked everybody to look at a music video of the Dozy Embrace, as she loves it so much. So do I, but I went to the SS and the changes in the film, and, for me, there is no question ---- Jack was wrong.
Annie left a lot of open space in her story, and she has Ennis hugging Jack from behind, no sexuality, and Jack's conclusion was that Ennis would not do that face-to-face because "...he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack that he held." And maybe they'd never get much farther than that.
That's Jack's sense of the Dozy Embrace. It is not given as a fact by Annie, only as his perception. And he was wrong.
Ennis knew who he was holding, and clung to him and rocked him sweetly. In the SS, he is humming softly, in the film, a nursery song. And he spoke to him, chiding him for sleeping on his feet like a horse. Those interactions show an active, conscious awareness on Ennis' part as to whom he was holding and loving on.
But if Jack was wrong in his conclusion, and he was, we are still left, then, with an extremely important insight into Jack's thinking - he did not believe Ennis was accepting him as his lover. And these misperceptions plague both of them throughout the story. Each was aware of extreme love for the other. Neither saw sufficient proof that love was fully returned. They kept failing to read the non-verbal signals, which were all either were capable of.
So friendship - they knew they had a once-in-a-lifetime friendship. Sex - they darned sure knew they'd worked that out. But Love? They had no certainty of the other. The same shy concealment of the shirts is directly tied to Jack's inability to accept the Dozy Embrace as meant for him and him only. Jack was wrong. The Dozy Embrace wasn't a half-measure from Ennis, all Jack could hope for or get. It was one of the most loving embraces there could be, and if Ennis could not face him, it was not because he denied it was Jack, it was because he would have broken down completely. Ennis risked it all, there, clinging to Jack, and rocking him protectively and humming. My apologies for no IMHO on this one. Jack was wrong. Ennis loved him.
Interesting take.
However we feel about the Dozy Embrace, I think we can safely acknowledge that people can be deeply in love without seeming to be open about it, even to each other and to themselves.
Love is a powerful and complicated thing. In many many cases, we love a person in spite of himself and (more importantly) in spite of outrselves. In many many cases, there is no need for certainty about a person when we love -- because, as the old cliche says -- love is blind to all the rest.
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If, as you said, Jack's perception of the dozy embrace was wrong, and in fact, the entire problem with the relationship was based on this misconception, then it seems to make sense of the lack of Jack trying to propose the cow and calf operation to Ennis again. this was never mentioned again.
Hi, Andrew - I think I gave the wrong impression, if anyone thought I was saying all the problems derived from Jack's getting the Dozy Embrace wrong. Clearly, both of them just didn't get the non-verbal signals right. I've mentioned before that Ennis going to sulk on the hill when they were told to leave the mountain early was based on Ennis seeing no overt sadness from Jack over their having to separate. Which was followed by rage, when Jack continued to make light of that, by means of the lasso. Jack seemed indifferent.
Hmmm...that brings up a thought---what if Ennis saw the relationship as possible only as it had existed on the mountain-separate from time and space, and the next 20 years were only a concession to his once and only time of freedom? That would make Jack's complaint - "All we GOT is Brokeback Mountain..." turn out to be a more significant complaint. And his choice of his ashes to be spread on the mountain, a final concession to Ennis' mental fixation on that idyllic time, giving up and giving in to Ennis' limits.
But I strayed. No, all the problems didn't come from Jack not seeing the Dozy Embrace correctly (I stand by Ennis knowing WHO he was loving on, which Jack seemed to doubt). There were too many missed signals on both sides. In short, each felt their love was not matched, and therefore better kept somewhat hidden, as to intensity. The worst event would not be final separation. The worst event would be confirmation the other didn't love. It would be too risky to find out.
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I agree that neither felt secure about the other's love and each did his share of putting on a brave face and treading only where he felt safe to do so. The final confrontation revealed some of each man's insecurities.
This was what I was trying to say, above. But, clearly, neither knew the depth of the other's love and that is why I said Jack's perception was wrong.
That can't be so very radical an idea, since we do know they both had misperceptions that crippled the relationship.
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I feel at this point (dozy embrace), he fell in love with Ennis. There is a point when we realize we are in love, and this was Jack's. Ennis embraced him, held him, showed him openly love that no one else had, (except maybe his mother), and Ennis took Jack with the same love, shown by his mother, the non sexual, unconditional love both men craved, and found in each other.
Manhattangirl, my post wasn't as clear as I had hoped. I was challenging Jack's perception that Ennis' embrace was kind of neutral and not directed towards him and him only.
But your suggestion this was where Jack fell in love is way interesting. Romantic love can be born of certainty and doubt, mixed together, luring the lover onwards. You did agree Ennis showed open love for him, but, in Jack's mind, there was still room for doubt. But that he would, himself, love, yes, that he could do, and that he could be sure of. That might be where it happened, for Jack. For Ennis? Could we ever know?
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However we feel about the Dozy Embrace, I think we can safely acknowledge that people can be deeply in love without seeming to be open about it, even to each other and to themselves.
Amen to that.
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This was what I was trying to say, above. But, clearly, neither knew the depth of the other's love and that is why I said Jack's perception was wrong.
That can't be so very radical an idea, since we do know they both had misperceptions that crippled the relationship.
Absolutely Tony. I believe that Jack knew that Ennis loved him, to some degree, but not the depth of that love (which I believe Ennis himself didn't even realize until the end). And I don't think that Ennis realized the depth of Jack's love until he found the shirts, after learning that Jack wanted his ashes scattered on BBM because it was his favorite place.
And being uncertain about some of the other's feelings couldn't help but lead to skewed perceptions at times.
(Oh, and I'm not sure I see Jack's wishes to be a concession to Ennis's need to keep them on BBM but rather a fulfillment of his own desire to rest in the place where he was happiest in life)
I view some of the things in the dozy embrace differently than you, mainly Jack's perception of that moment in time and what it meant to each of them. What I really love is that we have different ideas about various pieces of the story, but our views always seem to converge again in other spots along the way. I can't help feeling that means we must be tapping into the same elements of their love and the fundamental themes of their story. I love that we can approach it from different angles and still end up at the same center. Which I guess, really, is their hearts. :)
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And being uncertain about some of the other's feelings couldn't help but lead to skewed perceptions at times.
Hi, FlowerChild. I didn't reply to this yesterday as I had already "over-posted". Anyway, so much of this story is about skewed perceptions, on both sides, and much of that seems to come from the territory they were in being completely uncharted, out in the sparsely populated West. They had no real reference points except, for Ennis, Earl and Rich, and for Jack, prostitutes in Mexico. Unlike the 2 guys in "Shelter", there was no understanding of same-gender relationships being a part of the choices possible.
So, they really invested in friendship and sex, but were haunted by doubts as to how romantic love could be possible or even work out, and that 3rd category was where they could not easily communicate. There didn't seem to be any misunderstandings that the extremes of the first 2 categories were established and returned. It was when romantic love was in question, that they hid their feelings all too often, and worked up defensive misconceptions, and danced through 20 years, carefully, so as not to be hurt.
I really believe each feared the greatest risk wasn't splitting up, the greatest risk was finding out the sacred love each was aware of, within, was not returned on that level. When Ennis says "....boys like you...", it's a strong clue he saw Jack as needing sex more than love. When Jack's offer to hook up was refused, that had to tell Jack he wasn't needed as much by Ennis as was the reverse. On romantic love, each, then, had strong reasons to hide what did, in fact, trump friendship and sex, the great love. Too risky. Loss there could not be survived. That's how I see it, anyway. Could be wrong.
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Hey, we could all be wrong, as far as whatever AP's intent might have been. But the beauty of both literature and film is that once it's been absorbed by the reader (or viewer), it becomes theirs as much as the author's. So in that respect, none of us are wrong. It is what it means to us. :)
As to those misconceptions our boys had, I tend to agree with your idea about their fear of finding they weren't loved as much in return as what they gave themselves. That having been said, I do think that Jack had an "understanding of same-gender relationships being a part of the choices possible." Not because he had been taught it necessarily, but because he knew how he felt inside and presumably didn't think it was wrong. This is why he proposed that 'sweet life' to Ennis. I think you're right though about his frame of reference in general and certainly the possibility of his perception that Ennis didn't need him as much as he needed Ennis.
When Ennis threw out that remark about "boys like you" though, I took it to mean homosexuals in general and not necessarily just those that are more about sex than love. Even after all those years, he seemed to be fighting the idea that he might be defined within that category as well. It's an interesting take... :s)
I can't help but think that if Ennis ever took him up on that sweet life, Jack would be inclined to show more open affection to him (openly between each other, that is, not openly meaning in public). But if Ennis were never able to be comfortable breaking through that last wall, I think Jack would have followed his lead and just been happy enough to be together that he wouldn't have to have the demonstrative element. Having that great love would have then been enough. He wouldn't need to have it declared anymore.
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Hi, FlowerChild. I didn't reply to this yesterday as I had already "over-posted". Anyway, so much of this story is about skewed perceptions, on both sides, and much of that seems to come from the territory they were in being completely uncharted, out in the sparsely populated West. They had no real reference points except, for Ennis, Earl and Rich, and for Jack, prostitutes in Mexico. Unlike the 2 guys in "Shelter", there was no understanding of same-gender relationships being a part of the choices possible.
So, they really invested in friendship and sex, but were haunted by doubts as to how romantic love could be possible or even work out, and that 3rd category was where they could not easily communicate. There didn't seem to be any misunderstandings that the extremes of the first 2 categories were established and returned. It was when romantic love was in question, that they hid their feelings all too often, and worked up defensive misconceptions, and danced through 20 years, carefully, so as not to be hurt.
I really believe each feared the greatest risk wasn't splitting up, the greatest risk was finding out the sacred love each was aware of, within, was not returned on that level. When Ennis says "....boys like you...", it's a strong clue he saw Jack as needing sex more than love. When Jack's offer to hook up was refused, that had to tell Jack he wasn't needed as much by Ennis as was the reverse. On romantic love, each, then, had strong reasons to hide what did, in fact, trump friendship and sex, the great love. Too risky. Loss there could not be survived. That's how I see it, anyway. Could be wrong.
Let me butt in, Tony you are getting so close to what I see, the misinterpretation of the signals, I feel they were so protective of their own feelings, they couldn't see beyond their own fears. To read those signals they had to put aside their own egos, and fears and try to understand the other conflict, and doubts. Lets face it they never really did in all the twenty years they were together. And maybe it was infrequency of their meetings contributed to that.
I may not understand totally what you're trying to say, but like always you have me thinking out of the nice little box I constructed for myself.
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Let me butt in, Tony you are getting so close to what I see, the misinterpretation of the signals, I feel they were so protective of their own feelings, they couldn't see beyond their own fears. To read those signals they had to put aside their own egos, and fears and try to understand the other conflict, and doubts. Lets face it they never really did in all the twenty years they were together. And maybe it was infrequency of their meetings contributed to that.
I may not understand totally what you're trying to say, but like always you have me thinking out of the nice little box I constructed for myself.
Me too, mg. That's what I love about these discussions. :)
And I agree about their misperceptions, but I think that Jack actually had more of a sense of many of the things that drove Ennis than Ennis understood about Jack. And I actually think it was necessary to maintain the relationship as long as they did under the circumstances they did.
Jack had to know just when he could and couldn't push Ennis. He had to read his mood and calm his skittish impulses. When Ennis told him about Earl, he could see that Ennis couldn't budge at that time (though I think he might have been hoping that would change in time). And he recognized that genuine fear and practical concern for their safety that Ennis was projecting, so that he reached out to comfort him instead of feeling resentment or letting his disappointment make him bitter.
I don't think this made Jack any better within the relationship than Ennis, though, just a little bit more aware on that level. In plenty of other instances, though, his fears and insecurities blinded him to certain signals just as much as Ennis's did. What might they have accomplished if they could have peeked just for a moment into each other's hearts? I guess that's what Ennis was finally able to do when he found the shirts.
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When Ennis threw out that remark about "boys like you" though, I took it to mean homosexuals in general and not necessarily just those that are more about sex than love. Even after all those years, he seemed to be fighting the idea that he might be defined within that category as well.
I do agree entirely, FlowerChild, that Jack was comfortable with himself on his sexuality. But I find it difficult to believe he saw himself as gay or bi and just in the closet. He seems to fit a category of sensual males, I had written about in another thread (Ennis & Jack and new sexual theory), and I don't think he had any particular interest in defining himself. He FELT, rather than labelled or analyzed. He knew he liked the sex, but he refused to be labelled.
FlowerChild, I also base this on an absurd pattern I have seen, from my neighbood pals, all the way to guys showing up twice a year in gay bars. They don't think they are gay, because they like sex with women. You'd have to clobber them with the facts to get a concession of being bisexual. They are generally hidden because they don't fit gay or straight agendas of who's who and what's what. And I have a slight sense, just slight, that Jack didn't go to Mexico to be gay, but rather, to be WITH gays. It's a difference I have seen. But we do agree, he was comfortable with his sexuality - I would just add that his comfort level was sensual and mindless, rather than: I'm gay and I know it.
The "boys like you" phrase, I would also have to agree, on the surface, shows Ennis defining Jack (but not himself) as homosexual. But this story is so rich with nuances, I'd tend to think that was a surface level accusation. Jack DID like sex with women, and Ennis would have known that. So, on another level, he might have been saying (unfairly): you're more into the sex than I am, and (sorry I have to go there) you like being the receiver.
I say that because, although he WAS throwing what seemed to be an accusation of homosexuality in Jack's face (and, wow, the absurdities here!), if that was his primary belief, then we have to alter the fundamentals of the story: Guy who thinks he's straight, in love with a guy he is certain is gay. That throws a monkey wrench into a lot of things.
Am over-doing this. It's all there, as issues, but those two were in such a tangled mess, untangling it is a really long journey. But, hey, we LIKE the journey, so I'll just try for shorter posts.
I do agree, on those two exceptions you made, FlowerChild, but they then led to deeper territory.
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I do agree entirely, FlowerChild, that Jack was comfortable with himself on his sexuality. But I find it difficult to believe he saw himself as gay or bi and just in the closet. He seems to fit a category of sensual males, I had written about in another thread (Ennis & Jack and new sexual theory), and I don't think he had any particular interest in defining himself. He FELT, rather than labelled or analyzed. He knew he liked the sex, but he refused to be labelled.
FlowerChild, I also base this on an absurd pattern I have seen, from my neighbood pals, all the way to guys showing up twice a year in gay bars. They don't think they are gay, because they like sex with women. You'd have to clobber them with the facts to get a concession of being bisexual. They are generally hidden because they don't fit gay or straight agendas of who's who and what's what. And I have a slight sense, just slight, that Jack didn't go to Mexico to be gay, but rather, to be WITH gays. It's a difference I have seen. But we do agree, he was comfortable with his sexuality - I would just add that his comfort level was sensual and mindless, rather than: I'm gay and I know it.
The "boys like you" phrase, I would also have to agree, on the surface, shows Ennis defining Jack (but not himself) as homosexual. But this story is so rich with nuances, I'd tend to think that was a surface level accusation. Jack DID like sex with women, and Ennis would have known that. So, on another level, he might have been saying (unfairly): you're more into the sex than I am, and (sorry I have to go there) you like being the receiver.
I say that because, although he WAS throwing what seemed to be an accusation of homosexuality in Jack's face (and, wow, the absurdities here!), if that was his primary belief, then we have to alter the fundamentals of the story: Guy who thinks he's straight, in love with a guy he is certain is gay. That throws a monkey wrench into a lot of things.
Am over-doing this. It's all there, as issues, but those two were in such a tangled mess, untangling it is a really long journey. But, hey, we LIKE the journey, so I'll just try for shorter posts.
I do agree, on those two exceptions you made, FlowerChild, but they then led to deeper territory.
Oh Tony, if we had to be limited to short posts, I'd be in trouble! ;D
And I actually agree with what you said about Jack here. I didn't mean to imply that he necessarily identified as being gay, just that he believed it was possible for the two of them to have a sweet life together. So in that sense, what he thought about the rest of society wasn't as relevant as what he envisioned was possible for them. In Ennis's case, what he thought about society very much colored what he imagined was possible for them.
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Dear FlowerChild - yeah, Jack is a little wonky about being indifferent to defining himself. Hey, maybe he was the ultimately free male, completely past straight and gay males and not judging or labelling anybody. We never do hear anything from him on the subject except when Ennis says "I'm not queer", Jack goes: "Me, neither." And after that, he goes wherever he might be loved. Lureen. Ennis. Randall. Loved, or....wanted. Jack needed to be wanted. Definitions meant zero.
Manhattangirl, something jumped off the screen, from your post. You hooked up the missed signals with the infrequency of meeting-up. There's something going on there. A mistaken perception carried for a few days, can often erode. Carried for 6 months, can settle in like concrete.
Which brings me to an understanding, that time together is needed to erode a wrong impression. And it was Jack who said: "Never enough time..."
Jack may have been saying what you were saying, MG - how can you communicate and adapt and get it right....if you don't see each other much?
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I've experienced that in my own life, so I think you guys are onto something there.
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Dear FlowerChild - yeah, Jack is a little wonky about being indifferent to defining himself. Hey, maybe he was the ultimately free male, completely past straight and gay males and not judging or labelling anybody. We never do hear anything from him on the subject except when Ennis says "I'm not queer", Jack goes: "Me, neither." And after that, he goes wherever he might be loved. Lureen. Ennis. Randall. Loved, or....wanted. Jack needed to be wanted. Definitions meant zero.
Manhattangirl, something jumped off the screen, from your post. You hooked up the missed signals with the infrequency of meeting-up. There's something going on there. A mistaken perception carried for a few days, can often erode. Carried for 6 months, can settle in like concrete.
Which brings me to an understanding, that time together is needed to erode a wrong impression. And it was Jack who said: "Never enough time..."
Jack may have been saying what you were saying, MG - how can you communicate and adapt and get it right....if you don't see each other much?
I wonder too about preceptions when there is "not enough time". Its so clear with Jack and Ennis that time was what they needed, and didn't have much of. But who imposed this time limit, what rule, what law said that this was how it's suppose to be. "Never enough time...." Neither man understood the power each had to change things, they overlooked the fact they had the power, not to change society, but the ability to change that basic of things, themselves and their relationship. The rule became "If you can't fix it, you just have to stand it".
So as they tried to stand it, they began to question the others commitment. Did Ennis really wandered about Jack's fidelity and love for him, did Jack think it was Ennis who could live like this, a couple of "high altitude f#@ks", once or twice a year and this was the way he wanted it, and not a life with him. Yes preception was everything. JMO.
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Neither man understood the power each had to change things, they overlooked the fact they had the power, not to change society, but the ability to change that basic of things, themselves and their relationship. The rule became "If you can't fix it, you just have to stand it".
Well, maybe Jack understood they had some power to change things for themselves, if they would both agree, but he dropped back to feeling powerless to change Ennis into that progressive mode, when Ennis balked. So then they were both stuck, and had to stand it.
Seems to me, though, that 9/10th of the probing done by us is about Ennis and his insecurities, and so very little probing into Jack's thinking. Why DID he drop the push to ranch up, instead of waiting for a more opportune moment, or, himself, getting a ranch much closer to Ennis? He never really seemed to think he COULD push Ennis, ever, on that subject.
Nobody seems to be a really advanced Jack expert. LJN has enormous empathy for him. MG often sees things from Jack's point of view. Even Aintfoolin was making a move, I thought, some time back, to analyze Jack more closely. Maybe we all see the complexity in Ennis, but write off Jack as loveable, a powerful force for healing, and faithful, or faithful enough. I do it myself....take Jack for granted, and his love as a given. Maybe we should look for even the smallest clues to a more complex Jack. I tried for that, in challenging the usual take on the Dozy Embrace. But everybody seems to see Jack as one-dimensional. Maybe we should try that uncharted territory here, with reference to the topic, and in the other threads, where appropriate. Starting over.
By the way, Manhattangirl, please forgive me for my habit of starting off a post as: "Dear so-and-so..." It's just a courtesy and in no way means the discussion is only between me and that person, as that would be very wrong. All posts, as I understand it, are wide-open to anyone's comments or replies.
Maybe I should drop the habit, but I just thought it made things a little more friendly and less formal. And, please, anybody who's been reading but feels these are closed conversations, that is not so. Any and every post is wide open for your reaction, and is very welcome. And I don't know of anyone who feels any differently. And change the subject, if you like. Only the moderators can guide a thread and that is to keep us on-topic.
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Well, maybe Jack understood they had some power to change things for themselves, if they would both agree, but he dropped back to feeling powerless to change Ennis into that progressive mode, when Ennis balked. So then they were both stuck, and had to stand it.
Seems to me, though, that 9/10th of the probing done by us is about Ennis and his insecurities, and so very little probing into Jack's thinking. Why DID he drop the push to ranch up, instead of waiting for a more opportune moment, or, himself, getting a ranch much closer to Ennis? He never really seemed to think he COULD push Ennis, ever, on that subject.
Nobody seems to be a really advanced Jack expert. LJN has enormous empathy for him. MG often sees things from Jack's point of view. Even Aintfoolin was making a move, I thought, some time back, to analyze Jack more closely. Maybe we all see the complexity in Ennis, but write off Jack as loveable, a powerful force for healing, and faithful, or faithful enough. I do it myself....take Jack for granted, and his love as a
given. Maybe we should look for even the smallest clues to a more complex Jack. I tried for that, in challenging the usual take on the Dozy Embrace. But everybody seems to see Jack as one-dimensional. Maybe we should try that uncharted territory here, with reference to the topic, and in the other threads, where appropriate. Starting over.
By the way, Manhattangirl, you seem shy of posting, when someone is addressing themselves to someone else's reply. I hope that's not because of my own habit of starting a post with; "Dear so-and-so..." Any post is open to everyone, as I understand it, and am very sorry if my doing that seems to make a post just between 2 people. It's just a courtesy, MG, to open a post that way, and any of my own posts are wide open for anyone and everyone to reply or comment. Maybe I should drop the habit, so as not to shy anyone off. Either way, anyone should welcome any replies, and I sure do. Lurkers, please jump in---the threads are wide open and you are welcome, and comments are in no way intruding on any 2 or even 3 people's posts, back and forth.
Tony, thank you for that. Please don't change anything, it's just habit, the posts can have such an intmate feel to them, I don't want to interupt the flow of the conversation. So please Tony, don't mind me.
Jack, sometimes I feel even without recognizing it, we are all Jack, the doubts, frustrations, need, disappointments, the desire, and loving someone so emotionally distant. We see all of what Jack is going through, we acutely feel his pain in one way or another, so we drawn to Ennis.
I was intrigue by your idea of Jack being a camelion of sorts, adapting sexually, not being bound by labels. Jack wanted Ennis so he seduced him, Jack wanted Lureen so he let her seduce him. His trips to Mexico just to be with gays, but not actually being gay himself, so why his own torment?
I've felt that the both Jack and Ennis tried desperately to deal with their sexuality, Jack's wanting to be who he was,and be with his lover. Ennis trying desperately not to be who he was but couldn't be too long without his lover near him, but only if he could feel the safety of the mountain.
Sometimes I feel AP needed Jack to create Ennis, a way for her to even be able to write the complexity of a man like Ennis, culminating with Jack's death for Ennis realization of love, and acceptance. Jack had to be the one. The one who was most true to himself, and the most vulnerable, the most human, so much so even death had to come to him. I don't think Jack was one dimensional character, Jack was us. JMO.
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Sometimes I feel AP needed Jack to create Ennis, a way for her to even be able to write the complexity of a man like Ennis, culminating with Jack's death for Ennis realization of love, and acceptance. Jack had to be the one. The one who was most true to himself, and the most vulnerable, the most human, so much so even death had to come to him. I don't think Jack was one dimensional character, Jack was us.
Every now and then, a post breaks through, from someone, that has to be considered one of the best ever written on this forum. This, IMO, was one of those posts.
"Sometimes I feel AP needed Jack to create Ennis...." . Yes, the ultimate lover for the wayward, lost soul.
"Jack was us." He was, indeed. We would never be here if we weren't, ourselves, wanting to love. But following through, if we started as Jack, we did also maybe find in ourselves the other, Ennis, as, if we are truly honest, we too are still struggling to be free. We found, in both, the tensions in our own lives. But, before that, before becoming ensnared in this love story, we began as Jack.
Yes. Jack WAS us. And still is. Still loving Ennis, too.
Thanks, Manhattangirl. The whole thread was worth it for this one post.
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I think that was incredibly well said too. O0 And I have never felt that Jack was one dimensional either. I am, or at least see myself as, very much a Jack personality, so your beautifully put "Jack was us" hits me straight in the heart.
I have more thoughts on some of Tony's questions about why Jack didn't push more, or move closer to Ennis, etc. I'll have to try to collect them and come back when I can express them coherently. :)
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I do agree entirely, FlowerChild, that Jack was comfortable with himself on his sexuality. But I find it difficult to believe he saw himself as gay or bi and just in the closet. He seems to fit a category of sensual males, I had written about in another thread (Ennis & Jack and new sexual theory), and I don't think he had any particular interest in defining himself. He FELT, rather than labelled or analyzed. He knew he liked the sex, but he refused to be labelled.
Whether I agree with this or not is beside the point. I do find this rather interesting. I think I do get what you mean here, and I think I do tend to think that Jack was perhaps not so interested in defining himself.. Jack was indedd a sensual, more feeling type of individual, and it permeates his friendship and later love for Ennis on many levels. He has the need to feel, to smell, and to touch. You can cite examples for each of the senses.
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Tony, thank you for that. Please don't change anything, it's just habit, the posts can have such an intmate feel to them, I don't want to interupt the flow of the conversation. So please Tony, don't mind me.
Jack, sometimes I feel even without recognizing it, we are all Jack, the doubts, frustrations, need, disappointments, the desire, and loving someone so emotionally distant. We see all of what Jack is going through, we acutely feel his pain in one way or another, so we drawn to Ennis.
I was intrigue by your idea of Jack being a camelion of sorts, adapting sexually, not being bound by labels. Jack wanted Ennis so he seduced him, Jack wanted Lureen so he let her seduce him. His trips to Mexico just to be with gays, but not actually being gay himself, so why his own torment?
I've felt that the both Jack and Ennis tried desperately to deal with their sexuality, Jack's wanting to be who he was,and be with his lover. Ennis trying desperately not to be who he was but couldn't be too long without his lover near him, but only if he could feel the safety of the mountain.
Sometimes I feel AP needed Jack to create Ennis, a way for her to even be able to write the complexity of a man like Ennis, culminating with Jack's death for Ennis realization of love, and acceptance. Jack had to be the one. The one who was most true to himself, and the most vulnerable, the most human, so much so even death had to come to him. I don't think Jack was one dimensional character, Jack was us. JMO.
Beautifully said MG.and right on the money. Jack was us and we are him in many ways.
I've always looked at Jack as some one who's searching, looking for that one thing or person in his life that was concrete, solid, lasting. In many ways Jack is just as complex as Ennis. He loved Ennis, yes but he also felt a serious responsibility in his love for him. loving Ennis presentd him with an enormous challenge and I think he liked that part too.
He was the one who reached out and planted the seed in Ennis and nurtured it. He was the the one who *introduced* the idea that 2 people who happen to be men, can love not only thru friendship,( simply love for a good friend or buddy like companion ), but pass that over into a *romantic love* a protective need, a longing for one person and have no problem expressing it. He knew Ennis was the ONE. After Brokeback, no rodeo clown, Lureen or any other woman ( though he did enjoy their company ), was gonna last the test of time for him.
What he felt for Ennis was worth building upon, worth keeping. In turn, Ennis showed him an *emotional stamina "to rival his own . Different in the way they percieved their love , but the same intensity.. They were both taken by this love, again ,equal in it's strenghth for both of them. One with equal power over the other, yet wielded differently within the relationship. I think Jack's power lay within his acceptance of himself, who he was and he knew what ,where, who ,and how he wanted his life to be. He always had a plan. Some worked, some did'nt, but there was always Ennis Del Mar, the stable rock in his life in terms of how Ennis seated himself in Jack''s life.. He showed up, and continued to show up. Sort of a commitment, but not quite. after 4 yrs, wives and kids, this man still wanted him. He's convinced this love is the real deal. Again, Jack's power is Ennis's need for him. It is the one thing he did'nt have to work at getting Ennis to do. Ennis has shown him on more than one occaission that he is capable of love and perhaps ...change, signaling to Jack that there still was hope. Jack knew Ennis needed him, but his insistence is the driving force behind the relationship cuz let's face it, Ennis was'nt gonna leave Riverton, drive hundreds of thousands of miles every year for a few moments of bliss in Childress with Jack, but everytime Ennis showed up , to Jack, that meant he was wanted, and worthy of love. Saw it as one more step closer to a stable lasting sweet life with Ennis.
Yes, worthy, cuz I feel he has an esteem problem as well. I mean he had to feel that Ennis was *hiding* him . Perhaps afraid that his girls would tell Alma, they saw Jack Twist at "daddy's" house, during a court- ordered visit after the divorce... That Ennis felt shame of him and their affair, at the same time though, Jack still felt he could work with this. He had Ennis coming to him, meeting him, like clockwork when the times came. Was friend, lover and companion in these meetings. Ennis was there with him. it seemed they were a long way from " I aint queer",.."Me niether" ...but were they really?
Anyway, getting back on topic, perceptions are tricky when there's "not enough time", Minds wander, as well as hearts. The one Jack loves and really wants is not there for him. Frankly, I think Jack liked sex and made no apologies for that , he needed and wanted it more than Ennis. The whole distance thing posed a huge problem in my opinion. There's Randall and hustlers, encounters Jack had at moments when hope is dim, he cheated . Why? because again he finds himself searching. Avoiding rejection, searching for comfort, validity, and acceptance, vulnerable to others who could provide to him what Ennis could'nt. An openess to who they are, others, unafraid to take a free shot at a whole life, right or wrong, good or bad, like himself. How could Jack get what he "hardly ever gets" from Ennis if he's in Texas and Ennis in Wyoming? now don't get me wrong, sex was not the only thing suffering here , but it's important to Jack, he needed that, but he needed more time together to try and convince Ennis that being together more means growth, means growing comfortable enough to *talk* , to show vulnerability , discuss likes and limits, fears,boundaries and expectations and most of all get to the root of the problem without making each other feel that their fears will be judged or their vulnerabilities attacked. It does'nt make sense to him givin all that Ennis does do, that he can't get Ennis to take that last leap to a whole life , not just sometimes, but permanently.
Jack had fears too. Fears that stood in the way of him expressing his concerns and pressing his point. If he got too close, hit to close to home, Ennis would bolt and he'd loose him forever. After all "boys like you" are different from boys like him. Even at that late date. In any case, Jack got tired of backing down. He was who he was and liked what he liked. He could've lied about Mexico, givin their disposition, but he wanted Ennis see that he was not proud of what he'd done but of who he is. It's a good thing that Jack maintained his composure at this point cuz Ennis was either seperating himself from Jack in terms of sexuality, or just bein an ass , maybe both. Anyway I think it contributed to part of the last straw for Jack in the confrontation scene. I know Ennis was jeaulous , but... comon now....The only thing it resulted in was dragging himself and Jack over into unspoken, unknown territory he could'nt handle. It just got too personal trying to demean Jack's integrity, and vulnerabilities , like L.D. he tried to corner Jack, and Jack came out fighting. He never defined himself really, but did'nt let others do it either. These moments, I loved him the most. My take.
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Frankly, I think Jack liked sex and made no apologies for that , he needed and wanted it more than Ennis. The whole distance thing posed a huge problem in my opinion. There's Randall and hustlers, encounters Jack had at moments when hope is dim, he cheated . Why? because again he finds himself searching. Avoiding rejection, searching for comfort, validity, and acceptance, vulnerable to others who could provide to him what Ennis could'nt.
Have to say, people do get different things out of sex, and I see in the quote above, the suggestion, maybe, that Jack needed sex as a form of acceptance, as much as for lust-relief. Acceptance and validation that he is a real person, not a throw-away. Tracing back to FNIT, it always seemed to me that Jack wanted to sexually compromise Ennis to force Ennis to admit Jack was real, and the closeness between them real. Or that at least that played some part of it.
Ennis seemed to have different sexual modes, including routine, but also (SNIT and from then on, with Jack only) dropping the walls of loneliness completely. I doubt he ever did that with Alma or Cassie. But Jack? Sex with Jack meant....you accepted him. As a real person. Maybe he'd never been treated as a real person by anyone but his mother. Everybody else seemed to shoo him off. Even Lureen, after she had the baby her father required her to have, for carrying on the family name. Jack may well have equated sex with being of value to someone. It's a possibility.
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Can we find out even more about Jack from how he had changed Ennis. Who was this man, that could make Ennis write soup on a shopping list, and lie about being sick of beans? Why did Ennis volunteer to go out and stay with the sheep, or break the law and shoot an elk, or chose to stay in camp with him and not do his job that night. Jack set Ennis free so much so that he felt he could paw the moon.
What I'm getting at is that shouldn't we wonder what was it about Jack that made Ennis do the unthinkable, to be so drawn to him that FNIT happened, knowing that just what he was doing was dangerous but did it anyway and that it didn't matter, he wanted Jack. Honestly, can we really blame it on drunkeness, after all Ennis knew what happened to "boys like you".
Jack uncoil the the knot that was Ennis physically and emotionally who was this guy, and how did he do it?
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Can we find out even more about Jack from how he had changed Ennis. Who was this man, that could make Ennis write soup on a shopping list, and lie about being sick of beans? Why did Ennis volunteer to go out and stay with the sheep, or break the law and shoot an elk, or chose to stay in camp with him and not do his job that night. Jack set Ennis free so much so that he felt he could paw the moon.
What I'm getting at is that shouldn't we wonder what was it about Jack that made Ennis do the unthinkable, to be so drawn to him that FNIT happened, knowing that just what he was doing was dangerous but did it anyway and that it didn't matter, he wanted Jack. Honestly, can we really blame it on drunkeness, after all Ennis knew what happened to "boys like you".
Jack uncoil the the knot that was Ennis physically and emotionally who was this guy, and how did he do it?
I think their friendship and liking for each other was based on a feeling of connection -- a connection borne out by a sense of shared loneliness. Both of them had lonely childhoods, and both of them lacked a strong sense of belonging, especially with their families. They felt that something about them made them outsiders. What made Ennis appreciate Jack so much was not just his openness to listen to Ennis; Ennis appreciated that Jack understood Ennis's feelings of loneliness from first-hand experience. He understood that for all their differences, they belonged to the same world.
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Can we find out even more about Jack from how he had changed Ennis. Who was this man, that could make Ennis write soup on a shopping list, and lie about being sick of beans? Why did Ennis volunteer to go out and stay with the sheep, or break the law and shoot an elk, or chose to stay in camp with him and not do his job that night. Jack set Ennis free so much so that he felt he could paw the moon.
What I'm getting at is that shouldn't we wonder what was it about Jack that made Ennis do the unthinkable, to be so drawn to him that FNIT happened, knowing that just what he was doing was dangerous but did it anyway and that it didn't matter, he wanted Jack. Honestly, can we really blame it on drunkeness, after all Ennis knew what happened to "boys like you".
Jack uncoil the the knot that was Ennis physically and emotionally who was this guy, and how did he do it?
Okay, I am hiding behind a rock before writing this, because I know the rocks you all are going to throw at me for saying this. Sorry, Matt, LJN.
I understand and appreciate everyone's love for Jack, but at the same time, I think it is a combination of timing, circumstance and needs. Ennis was ready to open up that summer of '63. He was so ready to find someone, anyone, that he even got engaged to be married. He was genuinely happy on his honeymoon with Alma, that first winter.
As Annie Proulx said in the short story, and in her interviews, Brokeback Mountain is a special setting, like the Eden you all spoke of earlier, when the two lonely young men can be away from the rest of the cold cruel world, and find in each other acceptance, friendship, sex, and love. They did not go out to find gay sex. Well, perhaps Jack did. Perhaps that is what is special about Jack. This precocious awareness of his own sexuality. He never hid any of it. He was the opposite of Ennis, who hid everything.
Jack's bravado, boosting, banter during the day all point to the extrovert that was the opposite of Ennis the introvert. What made Jack special was his willingness to step up, to be out there, and invited Ennis to come out from his Fortress, to play, to live, to love.
What made the two of them special, was the loyalty they shared, even after twenty years. Jack might have gone off to Mexico that one time after being heartbroken after the divorce scene. He might have been tempted by Randall, but he could't quit Ennis even if he were to want to, which he never did.
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As Annie Proulx said in the short story, and in her interviews, Brokeback Mountain is a special setting, like the Eden you all spoke of earlier, when the two lonely young men can be away from the rest of the cold cruel world, and find in each other acceptance, friendship, sex, and love. They did not go out to find gay sex. Well, perhaps Jack did. Perhaps that is what is special about Jack. This precocious awareness of his own sexuality. He never hid any of it. He was the opposite of Ennis, who hid everything.
Am sure they didn't sign up for the job to find friendship, but they did find the truest friend in their lives. And they really didn't go up there looking for sex.
Some want to suppose Jack did, but, if that is true, he sure took a long time "cruising". Never made suggestive physical contact nor verbal probing. Nothing, until FNIT. By then, though, they were both past friendship and into the danger zone of friendship love, and, IMO, Jack's making a move was spontaneous, and not pre-planned, and may even have been egged on subliminally, by Ennis. No, they weren't looking for gay sex, and, at the risk of explosions from the peanut gallery, never did find gay sex. Not as we understand that, today. They found a sexual relationship that expressed their need for each other, and not a need for men in general. That Jack went past that, to other men, was IMO, not a gay need, but a substitution for Ennis. Am sorry, but I still see their relationship on the outskirts of what we think of as Gay. I still think the unexpected, explosive love created the sex. Label all you want afterwards, as you please, but I don't see the before. The love, and the falling into sex may have transformed them, but I do not see them as pre-primed for gay sex. IMO, they were pre-primed for finding each other, and no one else.
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Ok, I'm going to pick and choose the pieces I liked best about those last two posts. :)
And Andrew, I would never throw stones at you, but I will disagree a little bit. :*( I acknowledge that the time and setting of where and how they met were crucial to their being able to develop the relationship they did. But not that it was the sole, or even overriding factor. Because, like Tony, I believe that they were meant to love each other. Jack would not have come down that mountain in love with whoever he happened to meet there, even if that person had a similar background and understood his needs and experiences. Nor would Ennis, no matter how much they tried to draw him out or entertain him. Those elements were necessary for them to be able to form a bond of friendship and love, but those elements did not create that love.
And I don't see Ennis as being ready to open up to someone, anyone. I see him opening up precisely because it was Jack he met that summer. Because they had between them that indefinable something that makes the difference between enjoyable friendships and enduring and deepseated love. Whatever logical reasons we come up with to explain how and why they ended up together, we can't ignore the intangible factor.
As to whether they were gay or not, I don't think it's relevant enough to this discussion for me to throw in my two cents. Because, as I said, I agree that whatever their orientation might have been, they were, in the end, primed primarily for each other.
And manhattangirl, I loved your post. ^f^ Food for thought.
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Okay, FlwrChild, Tony, I will admit it when I am wrong, and I am wrong on one thing - to suggest that Ennis and Jack would fall in love with anyone else. ::)
I think what FlwrChild said, the intangible factor, is precisely what is keeping us from defining what is so difficult - what makes these two seemingly straight and normal cowboy do the most unexpected. We have defined some of the tangible factors such as the setting, their friendship growing out of working together, their background as lonesome cowboys, their mutual respect over the course of the summer, their complementary personalities, and perhaps, even their physical attraction. But what are the intangible factors? Are they significant compared to the tangible ones? Are they critical to their relationship? What does Jack contribute to the relationship? What does Ennis bring to the table?
:s) I don't pretend to know the answers. And frankly, my dear, I have given up trying to define it, because I have learned, while trying to define my own Brokeback Mountain, that sometimes, some questions just don't have logical answers. They may have intuitive answers, that I can feel in my gut, but not articulate. So I learn to accept them. It's hard to do sometimes, and it's why I rejoice so much, when by chance I meet others who also share the same intuitive feelings for those answers.
I learn so much being here, lurking and reading what you all say. :t)
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:s) I don't pretend to know the answers. And frankly, my dear, I have given up trying to define it, because I have learned, while trying to define my own Brokeback Mountain, that sometimes, some questions just don't have logical answers. They may have intuitive answers, that I can feel in my gut, but not articulate. So I learn to accept them. It's hard to do sometimes, and it's why I rejoice so much, when by chance I meet others who also share the same intuitive feelings for those answers.
I learn so much being here, lurking and reading what you all say. :t)
Exactly. And it's those qualities that we can recognize, but never fully illustrate, that complete the picture of Ennis and Jack. :)
And yes, by the way, I think that the intangible factors are significant compared to the tangibles, and are critical to the relationship. Because, in the end, you can't take away the human factor and that is always the hardest to define or pin down. It's the beautiful mystery in any relationship. And in the case of Jack and Ennis, for whatever reasons, we find their particular human aura to be very compelling indeed. :c)
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Am sure they didn't sign up for the job to find friendship, but they did find the truest friend in their lives. And they really didn't go up there looking for sex.
Some want to suppose Jack did, but, if that is true, he sure took a long time "cruising". Never made suggestive physical contact nor verbal probing. Nothing, until FNIT. By then, though, they were both past friendship and into the danger zone of friendship love, and, IMO, Jack's making a move was spontaneous, and not pre-planned, and may even have been egged on subliminally, by Ennis. No, they weren't looking for gay sex, and, at the risk of explosions from the peanut gallery, never did find gay sex. Not as we understand that, today. They found a sexual relationship that expressed their need for each other, and not a need for men in general. That Jack went past that, to other men, was IMO, not a gay need, but a substitution for Ennis. Am sorry, but I still see their relationship on the outskirts of what we think of as Gay. I still think the unexpected, explosive love created the sex. Label all you want afterwards, as you please, but I don't see the before. The love, and the falling into sex may have transformed them, but I do not see them as pre-primed for gay sex. IMO, they were pre-primed for finding each other, and no one else.
Tony,
I started to post last night about something you brought up concerning Jack's finding sexual *substitutes * for Ennis, not because he's gay, but because he could not have Ennis at the time . Do you, or anyone else feel that in the confrontation when Jack says " Hell yeah I been to Mexico, is that a f-ckin problem?" that he was perhaps, just maybe, *outing* himself to Ennis right then and there? sayin to Ennis that he likes sex with men, sought out only men? preferred men ? He'd appreciate it if he could have it with Ennis more if he could? That Jack was saying whatever "gay" meant to him, (Jack never verbally defined himself or said out loud, (" I feel I'm gay"), but he was saying he was, who he was ?, needs sex with men? It was said in response to Ennis's "boys like you" statement. Ennis was really saying that just because Jack went to Mexico was because in Ennis's mind "queers" are weaker than "boys like him"? when it comes to sex?, and Jack responds this way?
Of course if this is true, Ennis certainly has a big problem with it. It would mean , since he's sexually involved with a man too, that it would be hitting a little too close to home for Ennis.
The fact that Jack is so daring pointing out that after all this time, Ennis still sees himself differently than Jack? Is Jack saying that , though Ennis would never admit it, Ennis aint so different from him. Perhaps pointing out the audacity of Ennis? Jack was most definitly a man , and Ennis WAS having sex with him? and had been for 20 yrs minus four.
I alluded to this in the thread called How Did Ennis and Jack Really See Each Other,? I asked then, How did Ennis see Jack? Did he think/feel Jack was gay? How does he justify or rationalize his love and need for Jack in relation to himself? Certainly, he does'nt just close his eyes and pretend Jack is'nt a man during sex, so how can he say he says " I aint queer" the morning after FNIT , a sexual act Jack had initiated, he does it again with "boys like you" in the confrontation scenes concerning Mexico, another direct statement alluding to to Jack's sex life.... Please, I'm just askin?..
From the peanut gallery if you will.
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I love these posts, and I agree, it goes far beyond whether they were straight or not, what draws someone to someone else. Ennis knew about boys like Jack, he was already programmed, warned, shown the outcome of men like this, but that didn't stop him taking Jack that first night. Jack plugged into every need Ennis unknowingly had. Ennis was searching only to make a buck, and he wasn't on "Spring Break", and he wasn't looking for his counterpart, or to be in love with someone for the rest of his life. When he thought his life was already planned out Jack put a monkey wrench in the whole thing.
Neither do I think Jack was looking for a hookup that summer either, Jack was a "rolling stone", happy to be anywhere but Lighting Flats. All he wanted was a ranch of his own, not answer to anyone but himself, he was the most truest of the independent spirit, more so than Ennis. Like many of the men in those days, he found someone, and he wanted settle down and give and share that life, and he wanted to it with Ennis.
IMO none of this planned, but an ironic twist of fate.
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The fact that Jack is so daring pointing out that after all this time, Ennis still sees himself differently than Jack? Is Jack saying that , though Ennis would never admit it, Ennis aint so different from him. Perhaps pointing out the audacity of Ennis? Jack was most definitly a man , and Ennis WAS having sex with him? and had been for 20 yrs minus four.
I alluded to this in the thread called How Did Ennis and Jack Really See Each Other,? I asked then, How did Ennis see Jack? Did he think/feel Jack was gay? How does he justify or rationalize his love and need for Jack in relation to himself? Certainly, he does'nt just close his eyes and pretend Jack is'nt a man during sex, so how can he say he says " I aint queer" the morning after FNIT , a sexual act Jack had initiated, he does it again with "boys like you" in the confrontation scenes concerning Mexico, another direct statement alluding to to Jack's sex life.... Please, I'm just askin?..
From the peanut gallery if you will.
While not trying to get into the whole subject of sexual orientation, I would say that this shows some degree of denial on Ennis's part to recognize an important aspect of their relationship. Friendship is fin and sex is fine, but to Ennis had a hard time admiting to himself that it was another man whom he truly loved.
Jack daring Ennis to say anything about his Mexico trips shows that he was trying to force the issue then, IMO. Yes, I also believe that in an oblique way, Jack was forcing Ennis to confront the situation and acknowledge that they were not that different in this regard.
Let me repeat it here: I think it was the love part in the relationship that caused Ennis to do a lot of soul-searching. In a way, he was always conflicted in the knowledge that it was Jack whom he truly loved above everyone else. The denials were part of a rationalization process, IMO. It deflected the issue to another person, by making the other person a sort of scape-goat. "It's because of you that I'm like this" partly reflects this deep-seated insecurity. It only begins to life after Jack's death, for reasons that I think are very Buddhist in conception...
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I love these posts, and I agree, it goes far beyond whether they were straight or not, what draws someone to someone else. Ennis knew about boys like Jack, he was already programmed, warned, shown the outcome of men like this, but that didn't stop him taking Jack that first night. Jack plugged into every need Ennis unknowingly had, Ennis was searching only to make a buck, and he wasn't on "Spring Break", and he wasn't looking for his counterpart, or to be in love with someone for the rest of his life, when he thought his life was already planned out Jack put a monkey wrench in the whole thing.
Neither do I think Jack was looking for a hookup that summer either, Jack was a "rolling stone", happy to be anywhere but Lighting Flats. All he wanted was a ranch of his own, not answer to anyone but himself, he was the most truest of the independent spirit, more so than Ennis. Like many of the men in those days, he found someone, and he wanted settle down and give and share that life, and he wanted to it with Ennis.
IMO none of this planned, but an ironic twist of fate.
I agree , none of this was planned. Jack had worked the previous summer and there's no indication that he had a co-worker. This time Aguirre wanted two guys. A herder, And a camp tender. Enter Ennis Del Mar...did'nt talk, appeared anti-social until Jack found a way to draw him out. When he did that ,Jack was drawn into Ennis's life. The quiet cowboy had alot to show him and talk about. He was human after all, but a challenge. They were opposites in many ways , but still found a balance with Jack's spicey charm against Ennis's quiet reserve. I feel it was a big part of the attraction.. Culture also played a big part imo , they could both understand rodeos, ranch work, hunting, fishing etc. Strict, distant fathers and loving moms. Both had grown up hard , had to grow up fast. Become men on their own and both had experienced major rejections. These profound commonalities drew them to each other as friends. This friendship evolved into an unconsious * friendship love, a very strong like for each other in a short amount of time on the Mt.. Beyond this point, I don't know what sparked it over into *romantic love* but there were prolonged stares and body language , something was happening.
How they took the leap to romantic love is still a mystery to me, although many threads have explored it. How did Jack know it was time to make his move on Ennis? I'll admit, I go back and forth on this, but it did seem that Jack felt or new something about Ennis and seemed to figure after some time had passed that Ennis's actions toward him on the Mt. were to be read as signals that Ennis was feeling the same as him. Was it really spontaneous on Jack's part? Or did he read Ennis's smiles, eye contact and downright flirting at times as a desire to explore these feelings deeper? With a little liquid courage from Old Rose, Jack makes a move on him, Ennis acts like he does'nt have a clue...at first, but well ,...we all know what happened. No further prompting or manuals needed.
Thanks tpe, Well..I don't know nothin about Buddism, but I totally agree with what you've said about Ennis deflecting the issue off himself and onto Jack. Jack wanted to know what the problem was after so much time. I have said before that although Ennis had a problem admitting to himself that it was a man he loved, to Jack it had to seem that Ennis was capable of loving him. He had all the signs and proof he needed to believe it. If he could love, what could he fear? Just imagine Jack's frustration. He loved Ennis and knew Ennis loved him, but how amazing the lengths Ennis goes to deny it. Making Jack a scape-goat for his own fears.
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Tony,
I started to post last night about something you brought up concerning Jack's finding sexual *substitutes * for Ennis, not because he's gay, but because he could not have Ennis at the time . Do you, or anyone else feel that in the confrontation when Jack says " Hell yeah I been to Mexico, is that a f-ckin problem?" that he was perhaps, just maybe, *outing* himself to Ennis right then and there? sayin to Ennis that he likes sex with men, sought out only men? preferred men ? He'd appreciate it if he could have it with Ennis more if he could? That Jack was saying whatever "gay" meant to him, (Jack never verbally defined himself or said out loud, (" I feel I'm gay"), but he was saying he was, who he was ?, needs sex with men? It was said in response to Ennis's "boys like you" statement. Ennis was really saying that just because Jack went to Mexico was because in Ennis's mind "queers" are weaker than "boys like him"? when it comes to sex?, and Jack responds this way?
Of course if this is true, Ennis certainly has a big problem with it. It would mean , since he's sexually involved with a man too, that it would be hitting a little too close to home for Ennis.
The fact that Jack is so daring pointing out that after all this time, Ennis still sees himself differently than Jack? Is Jack saying that , though Ennis would never admit it, Ennis aint so different from him. Perhaps pointing out the audacity of Ennis? Jack was most definitly a man , and Ennis WAS having sex with him? and had been for 20 yrs minus four.
I alluded to this in the thread called How Did Ennis and Jack Really See Each Other,? I asked then, How did Ennis see Jack? Did he think/feel Jack was gay? How does he justify or rationalize his love and need for Jack in relation to himself? Certainly, he does'nt just close his eyes and pretend Jack is'nt a man during sex, so how can he say he says " I aint queer" the morning after FNIT , a sexual act Jack had initiated, he does it again with "boys like you" in the confrontation scenes concerning Mexico, another direct statement alluding to to Jack's sex life.... Please, I'm just askin?..
From the peanut gallery if you will.
Without opening up a whole new can of worms, because I know there are a lot of people with a lot of different takes on this, I'll just say that yes, this is exactly how I see things. And you said it better than I possibly could have. :)
I also thought that Heath summed up Ennis's problem well when he said that Ennis "was a homophobic man in love with another man."
There is just all sorts of denial tied up in a predicament like that.
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Do you, or anyone else feel that in the confrontation when Jack says " Hell yeah I been to Mexico, is that a f-ckin problem?" that he was perhaps, just maybe, *outing* himself to Ennis right then and there? sayin to Ennis that he likes sex with men, sought out only men? preferred men ? He'd appreciate it if he could have it with Ennis more if he could?
This one forced me to put on my thinking cap. The problem is, Annie has given birth to two heroes who very much have the complexities of real people, and they are alive in that they change, grow, and interact just as we do. They are alive, and can be difficult.
Am not going to say enough to warrant going over to another thread, but will say am sticking to my sense that neither were pre-primed for sex on the mountain and yet that happened, as did romantic love. In the aftermath, Ennis stuck to his definition of himself and his comfort zone and the love for Jack trumped everything. But not so, with Jack. He was, I think, "de-sensitized" to same gender sex.
In the early politics of the emerging gay issue, the biggest allegation of homophobes was that gays were out to "convert" others to being gay. Gays responded defensively by the "born gay" theory. My best understanding is that you cannot be changed from straight to gay, but you can, particularly if you are a free spirited love-puppy like Jack, become de-sensitized to same gender sex (no allergic response) and, yes, you can end up liking it greatly. I think Jack ended up identifying this sexuality as very fulfilling, but I do not believe he would never again be responsive to a woman.
But Aintfoolin, your question greatly expands the possible meaning of their last meeting, and goes past anything I had ever considered before. Was Jack "outing" himself that day? I think he was, under pressure from the jibes from Ennis, which he had probably never heard from Ennis before. I can't remember who said recently, Jack would fight if you pushed him, but "boys like you" pushed him. But if he was outing himself to Ennis, isn't it also possible, for the first time, he was admitting all this FULLY AND FORMALLY....to himself? That he'd let himself deflect the issue, before then?
If so, there is much more we could then understand about A) his rush to Randall and B) the failure of that to work (it failed before his death). Damn, what a nightmare for Jack - finally outing himself and then finding out, maybe, after all, it could only work with Ennis. Imagine the confusion of outing yourself and then finding out, it really only works with one guy.
And then if Ennis understood Jack's words, which had confirmed his worst suspicions and fears, the scene in the diner has the tragedy of Ennis coming to terms with love, but also the crazy mixed-up comic humanity of Ennis' dilemma: My boyfriend just said....he was gay.
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How they took the leap to romantic love is still a mystery to me, although many threads have explored it.
Yeah, this one is still tough. Friendship love is easily understood. And with insight into male sexuality, so too was the sex. But romantic love was the knock-down punch. The only thing I can think to say is that they seemed to have been meant for each other, pre-designed.
But more realistically, in a cold world, if you do stumble across someone who fits your every need, and soothes your every hurt, then there was no place left to go. "There ain't no reins on this one..." traces back long before Ennis said those words. You find someone for yourself, there is no limit except fear, and that was another thread.
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Aintfoolin, your question greatly expands the possible meaning of their last meeting, and goes past anything I had ever considered before. Was Jack "outing" himself that day? I think he was, under pressure from the jibes from Ennis, which he had probably never heard from Ennis before. I can't remember who said recently, Jack would fight if you pushed him, but "boys like you" pushed him. But if he was outing himself to Ennis, isn't it also possible, for the first time, he was admitting all this FULLY AND FORMALLY....to himself? That he'd let himself deflect the issue, before then?
If so, there is much more we could then understand about A) his rush to Randall and B) the failure of that to work (it failed before his death). Damn, what a nightmare for Jack - finally outing himself and then finding out, maybe, after all, it could only work with Ennis. Imagine the confusion of outing yourself and then finding out, it really only works with one guy.
And then if Ennis understood Jack's words, which had confirmed his worst suspicions and fears, the scene in the diner has the tragedy of Ennis coming to terms with love, but also the crazy mixed-up comic humanity of Ennis' dilemma: My boyfriend just said....he was gay.
Well, to me Jack may well have been outing himself to Ennis, but not to himself. I think that he may have been hiding that knowledge from Ennis out of necessity, but had already known it in his own heart. I am with you about the sense of knowing that, whatever your orientation, you are only meant for one person. I just don't think that it was confusion Jack felt, as much as a pained resignation.
(major disclaimer here that I am not saying that I'm right and Tony's wrong, only that these are my impressions. I still like the way those impressions converge, even when we start from opposite corners. :c))
And I absolutely love the way you put this:
"the scene in the diner has the tragedy of Ennis coming to terms with love, but also the crazy mixed-up comic humanity of Ennis' dilemma: My boyfriend just said....he was gay."
I couldn't possibly have said it better myself and it's so in line with what Heath said. Just perfect. (:)
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It was part of all the things that unsayable, but understood. Jack had no doubt about who he was and accepted it. What Jack's struggle was he was not a loner, he needed human contact, a connection to someone else, but never denying he was "boys like you".
I think of the scene when he was dancing with Lureen for the first time. How many of you think it was Lureen, a woman, that he succumb to or the just holding someone who seem to respond to him. This was "human contact", and Jack was a man who needed just that. But this closeness, this contact didn't last long did it. Because still he needed the touch the feel of a man, this was who he was, and Ennis was the man he wanted. He was in love with Ennis, and even Randall couldn't fill the bill. Jack indeed had his own struggles didn't he, accepting who he was, yet not able to live the life he wanted.
That is what he was telling Ennis and his "boys like you", "I not you", He knew it, and he knew Ennis knew it, and honestly Ennis knew it all along, a very knowledgeable couple, but not able to put it into words. IMO.
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Well, to me Jack may well have been outing himself to Ennis, but not to himself. I think that he may have been hiding that knowledge from Ennis out of necessity, but had already known it in his own heart. I am with you about the sense of knowing that, whatever your orientation, you are only meant for one person. I just don't think that it was confusion Jack felt, as much as a pained resignation.
(major disclaimer here that I am not saying that I'm right and Tony's wrong, only that these are my impressions. I still like the way those impressions converge, even when we start from opposite corners. :c))
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It was part of all the things that unsayable, but understood. Jack had no doubt about who he was and accepted it. What Jack's struggle was he was not a loner, he needed human contact, a connection to someone else, but never denying he was "boys like you".
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Well, this is my feeling also -- that he supressed a lot of his feelings out of respect/consideration for Ennis. In terms of self-knowledge and need for human contact, I think that Jack did go steps further than Ennis -- and this applies especially to the interior knowledge of love.
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Well, to me Jack may well have been outing himself to Ennis, but not to himself. I think that he may have been hiding that knowledge from Ennis out of necessity, but had already known it in his own heart. I am with you about the sense of knowing that, whatever your orientation, you are only meant for one person. I just don't think that it was confusion Jack felt, as much as a pained resignation.
(major disclaimer here that I am not saying that I'm right and Tony's wrong, only that these are my impressions. I still like the way those impressions converge, even when we start from opposite corners. :c))
And I absolutely love the way you put this:
"the scene in the diner has the tragedy of Ennis coming to terms with love, but also the crazy mixed-up comic humanity of Ennis' dilemma: My boyfriend just said....he was gay."
I couldn't possibly have said it better myself and it's so in line with what Heath said. Just perfect. (:)
This says what I was trying to say FlowerChild. Thanks. He was'nt nineteen anymore and at some point over the years, I feel Jack came to a relization of what his feelings for Ennis meant about himself. Perhaps he had identified his attraction to men. When he asks Ennis if there is a problem with it , he was indeed *outing himself , out loud to Ennis in so many words. At the same time calling Ennis out on his sexual inclinations for 20 yrs. Jack was being grown up about at almost 40 yrs. old. Forgetting the pretense and confusion , he was questioning the percieved sarcasm. , all these yrs loving Jack had to mean something about Ennis himself. Though it was only one man Ennis was attracted to and loved, Jack was a man ,in every sense of the word. And Ennis was having sex with him.
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This says what I was trying to say FlowerChild. Thanks. He was'nt nineteen anymore and at some point over the years, I feel Jack came to a relization of what his feelings for Ennis meant about himself. Perhaps he had identified his attraction to men. When he asks Ennis if there is a problem with it , he was indeed *outing himself , out loud to Ennis in so many words. At the same time calling Ennis out on his sexual inclinations for 20 yrs. Jack was being grown up about at almost 40 yrs. old. Forgetting the pretense and confusion , he was questioning the percieved sarcasm. , all these yrs loving Jack had to mean something about Ennis himself. Though it was only one man Ennis was attracted to and loved, Jack was a man ,in every sense of the word. And Ennis was having sex with him.
Yes, I think so too.
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at some point over the years, I feel Jack came to a relization of what his feelings for Ennis meant about himself. Perhaps he had identified his attraction to men. When he asks Ennis if there is a problem with it , he was indeed *outing himself , out loud to Ennis in so many words.
Aintfoolin, I really do think you've upped the ante on the meaning of their last meeting, by using the word "outing". I have tried to bring to the forum things that I have seen, that sometimes women and gay men are uncomfortable with, and that is, regardless of the endless discussions of labels, there are large numbers of guys who just have a dum dum attitude that their limited same gender sexuality means nothing. These guys prefer women, are not "in the closet", yet for whatever reason, have hooked up with one or several other guys in their life. Gays wanna go: denial, dudes---you're GAY. Women, even gay-friendly women, are nervous at the thought their "straight" male reservoir might not be what they think it is. I have seen this phenomenon repeatedly.
But when we come to Ennis, it does not fully apply. He was always struggling with the implications of his doings with Jack, and it WAS a dilemma, as he never developed any interest in males past Jack. It sort of applies to Jack, in a limited way. Jack responded to anyone who showed an interest in him and liked him. IMO, it is very wrong to assume that he had no sexual interest in LaShawn. Or that he was lying to Ennis when he said he was having an affair with her. Looking back, he was bug-eyed when Randall came on to him, and was goofy enough....to be messing with BOTH of them, but finally settling on Randall.
So, IMO, yes, Jack knew of and accepted his attraction to men, but, had not signed on the dotted line, like the guys I've referred to above. It's kind of like someone voting Democratic over and over and then finally going- WAIT a minute---I AM a Democrat! People do this, Aintfoolin - the behavior without the signing on the dotted line.
But you raised the ante. So did Ennis, by voicing his worst suspicions- that Jack was gay (which, by the way, would or could lessen, to Ennis, the meaning of their meetings- it was about sex, more than companionship and love). Always, before that day, Jack had reassured Ennis, he had normal relations with women. Enraged, Jack DID "out" himself. And that broke Ennis heart as that made the affair more sexual than emotional, as far as Ennis was concerned.
He was just another source of sexual fulfillment for one of those "boys like you".
But Jack, too, by taking the final step and FORMALIZING his self-definition, which wasn't anything he'd bothered with before, went....where? To Randall. We know that from his father's story. And it didn't work. We know that, too. Even defining himself, led nowhere. We can only guess if Jack, too, had his own lonely scene in a diner, like Ennis, somewhere between Randall not working out, and his death.
Yes, that confrontation scene erupted after 20 years, and was as much about defining their sexuality as it was about the infrequency of their meetings.
Under scathing fire from Ennis, Jack outed himself fully and formally. And, IMO, wrongfully. These guys needed to drop sexual definitions and out themselves on their extreme emotional needs for each other. Friendship, sex, and love. They outed the sex in that confrontation, and, again, IMO, wrongfully, as they went by the world's rules. They needed to out the deepness of the love. Here is one instance where the meaning of the sex...got in the way.
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The above is too long. But am still wallowing in the confrontation scene. It was a dividing line, even if Jack had lived. They began their affair, after FNIT with Ennis saying: "You know I ain't queer.", to which Jack responds: "Me neither." IMO, they both meant it. But, although Ennis never developed any generic interest in other males, Jack did.
In that last meeting-up, then, Ennis challenged, and Jack outed himself. Maybe not as gay, but as what we'd consider bisexual. This altered their safe cover stories unto themselves, and had to be, then, the end of the relationship as they had known it.
In the aftermath, we see Ennis suffering, in the diner, but we also see him ready for the next meeting. Which leads me back to that strong belief-
shake Ennis up, and he would change. After Jack outed himself, then, Ennis may well have been prepared to make some kind of offer, if that was what it would take, to keep Jack. IMO, the next meeting-up, would have been the start of something new.
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Tony, I have to say that even though I don't see this the same way you do, and have my own opinions on all of that, I just love the way you express yourself. You really paint a good picture of your interpretation. It's almost visual for me to read your posts. :)
Thank you.
And sometimes long is necessary to get the complete picture on the canvas. ^f^
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The above is too long. But am still wallowing in the confrontation scene. It was a dividing line, even if Jack had lived. They began their affair, after FNIT with Ennis saying: "You know I ain't queer.", to which Jack responds: "Me neither." IMO, they both meant it. But, although Ennis never developed any generic interest in other males, Jack did.
In that last meeting-up, then, Ennis challenged, and Jack outed himself. Maybe not as gay, but as what we'd consider bisexual. This altered their safe cover stories unto themselves, and had to be, then, the end of the relationship as they had known it.
In the aftermath, we see Ennis suffering, in the diner, but we also see him ready for the next meeting. Which leads me back to that strong belief-
shake Ennis up, and he would change. After Jack outed himself, then, Ennis may well have been prepared to make some kind of offer, if that was what it would take, to keep Jack. IMO, the next meeting-up, would have been the start of something new.
That phrase shut the door to any discussion on being queer or not. "Don't ask, don't tell" kind of thing. The next night, when Jack went to Ennis, and waited for him on the hillside. Jack I'm sure didn't know what Ennis real reaction to the night before would be. Ennis standing there with rifle in hand, Jack waited for his next move, he waited for Ennis to speak. Jack had a lot of guts, in my opinion, but he did what he alway had from than on, and foolishly followed Ennis lead, and hoped for the best. The second time Jack made this error, was the reunion by the fire, he again gave way to Ennis's rules on how to handle this "thing that came over them". This was Ennis's way of coping, and Jack's way of holding on.
This "thing" was between them and blocked any coming to terms with their relationship, their feelings, their ability to verbalize anything between them. It wasn't Brokeback that hung over them but the "thing". And the "thing" was them. Their love, fear, need.
They were lovers, and knew they were lovers. If Ennis wanted a companion he would of had a dog. Ennis wanted his lover, Jack, in everyway, means, and sense of the word. He could stay away from Jack, but couldn't resist him, he could stay quiet, but when he spoke it wasn't what he suppose to say, but what he really felt. When he made love to Jack, he wanted to feel what he was giving in return, and he did.
But how can you come to terms with who you are, who you love, and what you need, when you look at it with fear.
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But how can you come to terms with who you are, who you love, and what you need, when you look at it with fear.
Am not sure I'm comfortable any more with our basic reactions to what happened to Ennis and Jack. For instance, the above quote is pivotal and yet, I think we've all, including me, let the questions become the answers. There's got to be more going on than just fear of society's disapproval or one's own pre-conceived ideas, for a disaster this bad having had to occur.
I don't have an alternative answer that fits everything, but it has occurred to me that Ennis lived in a closed world and Jack lived in a larger world, and that played a factor.
"You know me, Jack, the only travelling I've done is going around a teapot looking for the handle...", or something like that. And that was true. Ennis wouldn't go anywhere outside of a small frame of reference he could hold on to. It was a great leap for him to move to the apartment over the laundromat- he didn't want to do that. As for travelling for round-ups, or whatever, distance may have existed, but not change in scenery.
Jack, however, was a free spirit, although he kept roots in Lightning Flat. While Ennis wouldn't get a job at the power company, making more money, Jack would and did, become....a tractor salesman. And he would and did...go to Mexico.
"You been to Mexico...?", then, was a little more of an accusation then just sexual debauchery, it was an accusation of being, unlike Ennis, someone who lived in a larger world.
IMO, then, an added dimension to the troubles was that Ennis had given up on life itself, long, long before he met Jack Twist. He could have said what he said at the end of the movie, years before Aguirre's trailer : "When you ain't got nothin', you don't need nothin'...."
Maybe Ennis was so battered he was afraid of living, and then along comes this preposterous life force that was Jack Twist. Not challenging him to be gay.
Challenging him to live. In that sense, there is a slight parallel to the novel "Sophie's Choice", where the grotesque battering of the woman's life before, precluded her embracing life ever again. I just don't see "Fear of Gay" as the root dilemma. I still see Fear of Love and, now, Fear of Life.
Somebody really messed Ennis over. Bad.
p.s.- MG, am not in disagreement with your post. It just set me to thinking, and disagreeing with my own previous beliefs. It can be messy when you disagree with yourself, but sometimes it works out OK.
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Tony, I would not worry about disagreeing with yourself, or anyone else. There are so many themes bouncing around in this story that we could talk for a lifetime and never pin them down.
And remember that our views of the story and the characters can change with our own personal perspectives and moods. Different things catch our attention at different times. And much like a painting, it can also look different when you look at it in different lighting or from a different angle. The painting hasn't changed, just our perspective of it.
I think, at the end of the day, as long as we see that this story was about love as much as anything else, we have at least learned the lesson that took so long for Ennis to understand. And that in itself is a valuable gift. :)
I like some of the analogies you mentioned in your last post too. I think they're spot on. And another irony, to me, is that the sweet life that Jack was proposing actually could have been exactly within that limited comfort zone of Ennis's. I believe that Jack would have been happy living in a smaller world - just a little cow and calf operation somewhere - as long as he lived there with Ennis. What Ennis didn't see was that simply taking the leap and going through that bigger world could have gotten him out on the other side into that smaller world, but in a much happier way than the small world he chose to live in instead (and having said that, I realize absolutely that he never saw it as a choice). I think this story is full of tragic ironies and circular, self-sustaining hells.
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Am not sure I'm comfortable any more with our basic reactions to what happened to Ennis and Jack. For instance, the above quote is pivotal and yet, I think we've all, including me, let the questions become the answers. There's got to be more going on than just fear of society's disapproval or one's own pre-conceived ideas, for a disaster this bad having had to occur.
I don't have an alternative answer that fits everything, but it has occurred to me that Ennis lived in a closed world and Jack lived in a larger world, and that played a factor.
"You know me, Jack, the only travelling I've done is going around a teapot looking for the handle...", or something like that. And that was true. Ennis wouldn't go anywhere outside of a small frame of reference he could hold on to. It was a great leap for him to move to the apartment over the laundromat- he didn't want to do that. As for travelling for round-ups, or whatever, distance may have existed, but not change in scenery.
Jack, however, was a free spirit, although he kept roots in Lightning Flat. While Ennis wouldn't get a job at the power company, making more money, Jack would and did, become....a tractor salesman. And he would and did...go to Mexico.
"You been to Mexico...?", then, was a little more of an accusation then just sexual debauchery, it was an accusation of being, unlike Ennis, someone who lived in a larger world.
IMO, then, an added dimension to the troubles was that Ennis had given up on life itself, long, long before he met Jack Twist. He could have said what he said at the end of the movie, years before Aguirre's trailer : "When you ain't got nothin', you don't need nothin'...."
Maybe Ennis was so battered he was afraid of living, and then along comes this preposterous life force that was Jack Twist. Not challenging him to be gay.
Challenging him to live. In that sense, there is a slight parallel to the novel "Sophie's Choice", where the grotesque battering of the woman's life before, precluded her embracing life ever again. I just don't see "Fear of Gay" as the root dilemma. I still see Fear of Love and, now, Fear of Life.
Somebody really messed Ennis over. Bad.
p.s.- MG, am not in disagreement with your post. It just set me to thinking, and disagreeing with my own previous beliefs. It can be messy when you disagree with yourself, but sometimes it works out OK.
But Tony you're on to something, what was it between Ennis and Jack, was it a "fear of queer", or something much larger? Both men lived their lives differently, though they seem similar at first glance. It was tug-o-war between them, living in a closet or coming out. I have a feeling you want to get away from that, see something else, something larger, something.
When you said someone messed Ennis up bad, let's look at that pivitol point, when his father took him to Earl's body. I have feeling Ennis at that point shut down emotionally. And knew he had to live his life a certain way, but not really understanding what way. So followed carefully his brother and his sister. He really never had an independant thought, spirit, hopes, dreams the same Jack had, only the I'll stick with beans attituede. He stuck with what he knew. Jack was of a larger world, and was trying to bring Ennis into it, out of fear Ennis resisted.
I ain't smart enough, so Tony where do we go from here?
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Aintfoolin, I really do think you've upped the ante on the meaning of their last meeting, by using the word "outing". I have tried to bring to the forum things that I have seen, that sometimes women and gay men are uncomfortable with, and that is, regardless of the endless discussions of labels, there are large numbers of guys who just have a dum dum attitude that their limited same gender sexuality means nothing. These guys prefer women, are not "in the closet", yet for whatever reason, have hooked up with one or several other guys in their life. Gays wanna go: denial, dudes---you're GAY. Women, even gay-friendly women, are nervous at the thought their "straight" male reservoir might not be what they think it is. I have seen this phenomenon repeatedly.
But when we come to Ennis, it does not fully apply. He was always struggling with the implications of his doings with Jack, and it WAS a dilemma, as he never developed any interest in males past Jack. It sort of applies to Jack, in a limited way. Jack responded to anyone who showed an interest in him and liked him. IMO, it is very wrong to assume that he had no sexual interest in LaShawn. Or that he was lying to Ennis when he said he was having an affair with her. Looking back, he was bug-eyed when Randall came on to him, and was goofy enough....to be messing with BOTH of them, but finally settling on Randall.
So, IMO, yes, Jack knew of and accepted his attraction to men, but, had not signed on the dotted line, like the guys I've referred to above. It's kind of like someone voting Democratic over and over and then finally going- WAIT a minute---I AM a Democrat! People do this, Aintfoolin - the behavior without the signing on the dotted line.
But you raised the ante. So did Ennis, by voicing his worst suspicions- that Jack was gay (which, by the way, would or could lessen, to Ennis, the meaning of their meetings- it was about sex, more than companionship and love). Always, before that day, Jack had reassured Ennis, he had normal relations with women. Enraged, Jack DID "out" himself. And that broke Ennis heart as that made the affair more sexual than emotional, as far as Ennis was concerned.
He was just another source of sexual fulfillment for one of those "boys like you".
But Jack, too, by taking the final step and FORMALIZING his self-definition, which wasn't anything he'd bothered with before, went....where? To Randall. We know that from his father's story. And it didn't work. We know that, too. Even defining himself, led nowhere. We can only guess if Jack, too, had his own lonely scene in a diner, like Ennis, somewhere between Randall not working out, and his death.
Yes, that confrontation scene erupted after 20 years, and was as much about defining their sexuality as it was about the infrequency of their meetings.
Under scathing fire from Ennis, Jack outed himself fully and formally. And, IMO, wrongfully. These guys needed to drop sexual definitions and out themselves on their extreme emotional needs for each other. Friendship, sex, and love. They outed the sex in that confrontation, and, again, IMO, wrongfully, as they went by the world's rules. They needed to out the deepness of the love. Here is one instance where the meaning of the sex...got in the way.
Great post , It has been alluded to in another thread about men who label themselves "straight", and have daliances or experiment with the same sex. From curious experimental acts of sex to feitishes and role playing, every sex act known to man ( and some not known).that can be defined/described is out there, some one's out there doing it, there's some one out there who fits every branch of the huge tree of human sexuality. Yes, there are segments of society where people define themselves one way and behave the opposite. I might be fully inclined to agree with you if the relationship between Jack and Ennis had'nt lasted for SO long.
20 yrs. is a big chunk of one's life. If they had an experimental phase, it was over.There has to be something big and strong holding it together. In the beginning, when they were 19, yes there was confusion and naiveity, but by 40 years old, one knows a little about themselves, enlightened by life's experiences. Sexual preferences being one thing. I feel Jack had thought about it and struggled with who he was . When Ennis pushed the point about Mexico , I feel he found , through anger, the courage and proud acceptance of who he was and his preference for men. " hell yeah, I been to Mexico" he says, daring Ennis to say something about it. Now this just me , but I'm sure there were *ladies of the night * also in Mexico, but that is not the alley/road he sought out. He knew where to go to get what he needed.
Jack spoke of needing something he "hardly ever gets". He could find sex with any woman he wanted, he needed a man's touch. Preferrably Ennis.
Sex is important , but unsustainable. It alone, cannot hold a relationship together, there has to be other factors involved. Imo Jack was the opposite of those men you decribe, he could respond and perform sexually with women, but preferred men. "Preferred" meaning not absolute. When he was alone and the choice was up to him , he got it where he could get it, and he preferred it with males. Jimbo, the clown( he initiated that),, male hustlers ( required some thought , a long drive, with the option to turn rethink,he did'nt, something tells me he'd been there before) and apparently said yes to Randall's proposition. ( could've turned it down, he did'nt) and of course Ennis, the one he really loved and wanted most of all.
Him decribing his sex life as "normal "and all" to Ennis may only mean what had become "normal "for him and Lureen. This could mean anything from no sex, to " do it over the phone "sex, either way, much was left to be desired to hear Jack tell it. I'm sure the ship of excitement about sex with these two, sailed long ago in this marriage. A "mating call" is just that ,a mating call ...aka.."a booty call ", some call it a "one night stand" if you will. She pursued Jack, Jack did'nt pursue her. Who could blame her? Jack was one gorgeous hunka man.., but that does not a marriage make. Her fantasy dream came true for a while.. his did'nt.
Jack was still in love with Ennis, and Lureen had fallen deeply for her adding machine, but I'm sure they managed every once in a while over the yrs. when desperation set in and Jack happened to be at home and sober. To me , he could never fully commit to Lureen. Like Ennis, his heart just was'nt in it from the beginning.
Because Jack was more calm and accepting of his sexual orientation, I still say as I've said before, that Jack saw the love on a continuous basis, from Brokeback Mt, stemmed a steady but sometimes broken road. The true bonds of love were never in doubt with him. Four yrs off the tracks? yes. altered his path somewhat, But that was not his doing or choice, Ennis made that choice for him but he never stopped thinking about Ennis and the unbreakable bond born on the Mt. His road always , always lead back to Ennis. Not so unlike Ennis, He knew Childress and Lureen and fam was not the road he preferred all along, He knew he did'nt belong there eventually, but now had obligations to a baby and a wife . Even that was proven to be on shaky ground when L.D. offered to pay him for his freedom. Its was hard to remain steady when Ennis could not understand that companionship, love and sex go hand in hand, not to be seperated and compartmentalized, but is to be celebrated naturally, as 3 major , essential ,parts of a loving, lasting, successful relationship.
Sorry Tony, but IMO the only way Jack could have ended up with LaShawan is if Randall and LaShawn were a coupla swingers, a sexual phenomenon that alot of couples experimented with in those times. Can you say ...triple header? (t) Call me crazy, I have been working 12 hour shifts latley , but I doubt she'd let Randall go with Jack to LF to stay that easy, she'd wanna come too! ( smelling salts please)... oh no , now I'm ...LaShawning? ;) I'll shut up now :cr) Thanx.
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I think this story is full of tragic ironies and circular, self-sustaining hells.
I sure do agree on this. Very Real World. Kind of like the regular floods in the Midwest and the regular droughts in the Far West and Mid-Central, and they ain't got no way to have inter-state waterways to siphon off the water to where it's needed?
The worst of it all is that Jack was the one to defy the self-sustaining hells, to have unique and original solutions, and he was the one who died. He was so certain there were solutions to problems, he'd even combine the solutions. Ma and Pa Twist were in need of long-term help and so he factored that in on the place for him and Ennis to ranch up. 3 problems solved: no money needed, parents taken care of, privacy for him and Ennis off a ways at a cabin near the main house. Jack was a dreamer? Nah - he was a problem solver and that made the tragedy all the worse.
I'd bet if he dropped his pride and appealed to Ennis on the grounds of his parents age and need, that would have worked.
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I don't know if it would have worked or not (one can only hope :c)) but I love the way you describe our Jack. He was indeed a problem solver, wasn't he?
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When you said someone messed Ennis up bad, let's look at that pivitol point, when his father took him to Earl's body. I have feeling Ennis at that point shut down emotionally.
Yeah, you're right. I regret saying once Ennis was using that as a crutch, or excuse. His father was showing him the price of defiant love: death. And gloating over it as would a demon.
Where do we go to from here? I guess continuing to explore and celebrate and empathize with the love story. Del Mar senior could bully that little boy, but that Ennis and his Jack Twist are ours now, and every time we wander through the meanings of their love story, we tell that jerk, Del Mar Senior, he won the battle, crippling the life force of a child, his own child at that, but he lost the war. Where do we go, MG? Same place we've been going- wherever our hearts and minds lead us, here and in the RW. Thanks for reminding me of just how huge the trauma was.
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Sex is important , but unsustainable. It alone, cannot hold a relationship together, there has to be other factors involved.
Because Jack was more calm and accepting of his sexual orientation, I still say as I've said before, that Jack saw the love on a continuous basis, from Brokeback Mt, stemmed a steady but sometimes broken road. The true bonds of love were never in doubt with him.
All of the above is exactly what I believe, too. But I still kind of think Ennis was suspicious, at least a little, that he wasn't loved as much as needed for sex. Which he wanted, too, but with a reassuring formula: on this kinda stuff - you and me only.
FlowerChild, our posts crossed. Yeah, it's always there, the what-if's. I kind of liked that one.
p.s. - Aintfoolin, that post of yours was a dandy and intelligent romp through human sexuality. But ya had to end it with images of a threesome with LaShawn, didn't ya? Which also brings up an awful question---would she have been LaShawning during the, er, activities? The mind boggles.
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But Tony you're on to something, what was it between Ennis and Jack, was it a "fear of queer", or something much larger? Both men lived their lives differently, though they seem similar at first glance. It was tug-o-war between them, living in a closet or coming out. I have a feeling you want to get away from that, see something else, something larger, something.
When you said someone messed Ennis up bad, let's look at that pivitol point, when his father took him to Earl's body. I have feeling Ennis at that point shut down emotionally. And knew he had to live his life a certain way, but not really understanding what way. So followed carefully his brother and his sister. He really never had an independant thought, spirit, hopes, dreams the same Jack had, only the I'll stick with beans attituede. He stuck with what he knew. Jack was of a larger world, and was trying to bring Ennis into it, out of fear Ennis resisted.
I ain't smart enough, so Tony where do we go from here?
I agree with this. Some one really screwed him up . Robbed him of free thought even before he had the chance to form his own opinion. He had heard people talking about Earl and Rich , two old birds ranched up were the butt of jokes in the town. This was no doubt reinforced at home by his father. Del Mar Sr just could'nt take the chance that this could have an impression on his son in any positive way. Apparently there was a sick, ignorant group mentality along the lines of the modern day hate groups to uphold the purity of the *straight and narrow* culture in the town. Then he is visionably shown the consequences of two men defying the culture and society that his father ( who was apparently suspected by Ennis as part of the group) and others wanted for their sons. This example of same sex relationships had to be elimnated, made an example of to make his point clear to Ennis and K.E. that this was totally unacceptable behavior for two men.
The horrific manner of Earl's death, then the death of both parents of left Ennis with a reality of death we all wish no child would be subjected to. The impreesion he was left with by the adults close to him about same sex love was one instilled with fear. I feel it explains the fear of love. It's was an unfair hand he was dealt in his young life , carried into his relationship with Jack. He brought this baggage of fear of what he saw in a drainage ditch yrs ago with him to adulthood, deeply affecting his ability to express his feelings of love for Jack. It's scary for a child, living with the aftermath of death, especially when he is left without the support or theraputic counseling we have today. It was burden taken in and never fully deat with, therefore Jack suffered the consequences of it too, simply as the one who fell in love with this wounded man , wounded in childhood, scarred for life by hate and fear... scared child, scared adult. My take.
p.s. : Yes Tony, I had to go there did'nt I? Blame it on sleep deprivation , long hours whatever, a threesome ivolving LaShawn? Now that throws a wet blanket ( no pun intended) on things. She was a "lively little gal" who talks a blue streak . Can we expect anything less? Now that I've had some sleep , it's first light...Can I take it back? To borrow a phrase from Ennis..."Aint right". I'm so *o)
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I've been reading this thread since it started, and I love it, but the two last pages are really AMAZING!!! Gorgeous posts everyone!!
Thomas, Andrew, wonderful thoughts. ^f^
Barb, I TOTALLY agree with every post you wrote. Beautiful. ^f^
MG, I love the way you say it all; I love your thoughts about Ennis and Jack. You know the true about them. ^f^
AF, you know how much I adore your posts and I agree with them. ^f^
Where do we go to from here? I guess continuing to explore and celebrate and empathize with the love story. Del Mar senior could bully that little boy, but that Ennis and his Jack Twist are ours now, and every time we wander through the meanings of their love story, we tell that jerk, Del Mar Senior, he won the battle, crippling the life force of a child, his own child at that, but he lost the war. Where do we go, MG? Same place we've been going- wherever our hearts and minds lead us, here and in the RW. Thanks for reminding me of just how huge the trauma was.
OMG Tony!! That was utterly precious!! <^( <^( Thank you so much!! And I agree: Jack was a problem solver; he was an amazing human begin. <^( <^( <^(
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All of the above is exactly what I believe, too. But I still kind of think Ennis was suspicious, at least a little, that he wasn't loved as much as needed for sex. Which he wanted, too, but with a reassuring formula: on this kinda stuff - you and me only.
FlowerChild, our posts crossed. Yeah, it's always there, the what-if's. I kind of liked that one.
p.s. - Aintfoolin, that post of yours was a dandy and intelligent romp through human sexuality. But ya had to end it with images of a threesome with LaShawn, didn't ya? Which also brings up an awful question---would she have been LaShawning during the, er, activities? The mind boggles.
Interesting. For my part, I have always assumed that Ennis was secure in his knowledge that Jack loved him -- too secure, perhaps. Had he been less secure, things would have perhaps ended up in a better place...
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Interesting. For my part, I have always assumed that Ennis was secure in his knowledge that Jack loved him -- too secure, perhaps. Had he been less secure, things would have perhaps ended up in a better place...
But Thomas, if Ennis was so secure about Jack's love, why was he so shocked when he found the shirts, when he found that Jack's favorite place was BBM and he wanted his ashes there? I thought that Ennis was so shocked there because he realized that Jack loved him more than he ever thought!! What do you think?
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I think I see where you're going with that Thomas, and it's an interesting factor to point out. Knowing that Jack would always come back, knowing he'd accept the terms laid out. Doesn't make for a cataclysmic motivator to extend yourself beyond those borders, does it?
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Interesting. For my part, I have always assumed that Ennis was secure in his knowledge that Jack loved him -- too secure, perhaps. Had he been less secure, things would have perhaps ended up in a better place...
Darn, Thomas, I have the same problem Baby Tammy has, on this one. If he was so absolutely certain of Jack's love for him, why the emotional shock at the end?
Maybe he felt secure that Jack would keep coming back for sex and love, because Jack always did, but failed to interpret that as an overwhelming love, similar to his own. A matter of degree.
I still feel one of the biggest parts of this tragedy is that each lover was only absolutely certain of his own love, and could never be absolutely certain that that love was returned at the same level. Ennis, for example, as I had mentioned, could not be sure which came first for Jack the sex, or the love. And Jack could only wonder how he could be loved when Ennis stubbornly refused to throw in with him.
Oh, well, the writers left a lot of room for each of us to write part of the story ourselves, and so we have done, each legitimately. Makes for some puzzlement at times, however, and that can be to the good.
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I think both were guilty as far as the sex v. love thing goes. Or should I say sex is easy for the both of them to communicate their love for each other. Ennis was highly sexual when it came to Jack. I doubt he let Jack be on those nights when they were together and v/v. The final confrontation was exactly about that, sex, Jack complaint that Ennis was satisfied with "high altitude f#@ks once or twice a year", and Ennis accusations of Jack's infidelity.
But once you peel back the layers, what was it really about, love. They didn't know it, or understand what they were saying out loud in front of God and everybody was, "I love you".
That's what Ennis found in Jack's room, and that's what he found out from his daughter it was love. IMO.
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But Thomas, if Ennis was so secure about Jack's love, why was he so shocked when he found the shirts, when he found that Jack's favorite place was BBM and he wanted his ashes there? I thought that Ennis was so shocked there because he realized that Jack loved him more than he ever thought!! What do you think?
Because he didn't realize that it had been so deep and how much Jack had to endure for the sake of his love for Ennis. Ennis didn't realize what the ranch meant to Jack. He had taken it for granted that what was good enough for him was good enough for Jack. This is typical of people who take the love of someone else for granted.
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I think I see where you're going with that Thomas, and it's an interesting factor to point out. Knowing that Jack would always come back, knowing he'd accept the terms laid out. Doesn't make for a cataclysmic motivator to extend yourself beyond those borders, does it?
Yes, this is my point: Ennis assumes that no matter what, Jack would be back to accept whatever terms suited him (Ennis). Ennis didn't do this out of spite or selfishness. I think he honestly thought that Jack saw things his way. That was why he was so shocked when he discovered the shirts, and perhaps felt more than a bit of guilt realizing what he had made Jack go through over the years -- even as it revealed how much he had made himself go through over the years.
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Darn, Thomas, I have the same problem Baby Tammy has, on this one. If he was so absolutely certain of Jack's love for him, why the emotional shock at the end?
Maybe he felt secure that Jack would keep coming back for sex and love, because Jack always did, but failed to interpret that as an overwhelming love, similar to his own. A matter of degree.
I still feel one of the biggest parts of this tragedy is that each lover was only absolutely certain of his own love, and could never be absolutely certain that that love was returned at the same level. Ennis, for example, as I had mentioned, could not be sure which came first for Jack the sex, or the love. And Jack could only wonder how he could be loved when Ennis stubbornly refused to throw in with him.
Oh, well, the writers left a lot of room for each of us to write part of the story ourselves, and so we have done, each legitimately. Makes for some puzzlement at times, however, and that can be to the good.
AS I mentioned in my reply to Tammy, the shock came out of realization: the realization that Jack went along for the ride not because he was getting what he wanted, but because he loved Ennis enough to endure everything. As I had said, Ennis's attitude is typical of many of us who take things for granted. I am sure you have had the experience of taking someone for granted, up until that person or loved one died or went away, and you begin to realize that you could have done things a bit different.
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I think both were guilty as far as the sex v. love thing goes. Or should I say sex is easy for the both of them to communicate their love for each other. Ennis was highly sexual when it came to Jack. I doubt he let Jack be on those nights when they were together and v/v. The final confrontation was exactly about that, sex, Jack complaint that Ennis was satisfied with "high altitude f#@ks once or twice a year", and Ennis accusations of Jack's infidelity.
But once you peel back the layers, what was it really about, love. They didn't know it, or understand what they were saying out loud in front of God and everybody was, "I love you".
That's what Ennis found in Jack's room, and that's what he found out from his daughter it was love. IMO.
On the surface, I am sure that the Final Confrontation was along the lines of sex. But I am sure you will agree, MG, that this only proved a catalyst for all the pent-up feelings that welled up inside of them over the years -- especially in Jack's case. I think Jack's sexual need hid a deeper frustration of wanting more from Ennis -- something that he never really had and had always desired. Hence the valedictory in the short story and the Dozy Embrace.
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On the surface, I am sure that the Final Confrontation was along the lines of sex. But I am sure you will agree, MG, that this only proved a catalyst for all the pent-up feelings that welled up inside of them over the years -- especially in Jack's case. I think Jack's sexual need hid a deeper frustration of wanting more from Ennis -- something that he never really had and had always desired. Hence the valedictory in the short story and the Dozy Embrace.
I do agree with you about Jack, he found that peace inside of him and it quiet the need, just being held by Ennis showed that. Jack wanted so much more.
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I do agree with you about Jack, he found that peace inside of him and it quiet the need, just being held by Ennis showed that. Jack wanted so much more.
Beautifully dais, MG. And you say it with such economy of words.
In a way (perhaps sadly), it was a separate peace.
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As I had said, Ennis's attitude is typical of many of us who take things for granted. I am sure you have had the experience of taking someone for granted, up until that person or loved one died or went away, and you begin to realize that you could have done things a bit different.
Darn, Thomas, you've put a lot out there this morning, for thinking over. A lot of literary works are focused on memories of how things once were, and, in that sense, reflect the strangeness to our lives, in that we go with the flow of events each day (and have to) and yet discover there were times there before that were of great importance often for their very quiet or simplicity. Idylls reconstructed from the chaos of time raging on. There's some of that in BBM. Since it is a universal experience, we ought to be able to forgive the failures of Ennis, and the misery of his own remembrances.
And then, a wildly different view on taking things for granted. When the Olympics were out in the West, not too long ago, it was hilarious to see the black comedian assigned, supposedly as a reporter. He had a lot of fun pointing out that the all-white locals, hadn't a clue they were....white. Eddy Murphy did a comedy skit on a similar theme.
The bottom line to that humor was that you don't exist, in certain ways, until someone else is different. A group of men, do not exist as men, until....a woman walks into the room. White people do not exist....until a black person shows up. This sounds stupid and over-simplified, but I once saw a t.v. show where, in a province in China, there was no conception of being.....Chinese, until strange-looking journalists showed up.
By extension, Ennis did not fully exist....until Jack arrived. Not that he was a collapsed reality, as in modern physics. More like his hurts and needs and traumas were not exceptional and lacked their fullest meaning, until the confrontation with ....the non-Ennis, the outsider, Jack Twist. He didn't know what he was missing in his life until that something showed up and thereby forced a definition.
If this is all too intellectual, it's your doings, Thomas. And, by the way, I can't believe you snuck in a reference to "A Separate Peace", in small caps, in one of your replies. So I refuse to take responsibility for the ramblings above. I do believe, you are being gently provocative, to get us to do some thinking.
In my case, that will always produce a tangled, messy, over-thinky reply.
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On the surface, I am sure that the Final Confrontation was along the lines of sex. But I am sure you will agree, MG, that this only proved a catalyst for all the pent-up feelings that welled up inside of them over the years -- especially in Jack's case. I think Jack's sexual need hid a deeper frustration of wanting more from Ennis -- something that he never really had and had always desired. Hence the valedictory in the short story and the Dozy Embrace.
Yes, that's it exactly!
You guys always say things better than I can.
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Darn, Thomas, you've put a lot out there this morning, for thinking over. A lot of literary works are focused on memories of how things once were, and, in that sense, reflect the strangeness to our lives, in that we go with the flow of events each day (and have to) and yet discover there were times there before that were of great importance often for their very quiet or simplicity. Idylls reconstructed from the chaos of time raging on. There's some of that in BBM. Since it is a universal experience, we ought to be able to forgive the failures of Ennis, and the misery of his own remembrances.
And then, a wildly different view on taking things for granted. When the Olympics were out in the West, not too long ago, it was hilarious to see the black comedian assigned, supposedly as a reporter. He had a lot of fun pointing out that the all-white locals, hadn't a clue they were....white. Eddy Murphy did a comedy skit on a similar theme.
The bottom line to that humor was that you don't exist, in certain ways, until someone else is different. A group of men, do not exist as men, until....a woman walks into the room. White people do not exist....until a black person shows up. This sounds stupid and over-simplified, but I once saw a t.v. show where, in a province in China, there was no conception of being.....Chinese, until strange-looking journalists showed up.
By extension, Ennis did not fully exist....until Jack arrived. Not that he was a collapsed reality, as in modern physics. More like his hurts and needs and traumas were not exceptional and lacked their fullest meaning, until the confrontation with ....the non-Ennis, the outsider, Jack Twist. He didn't know what he was missing in his life until that something showed up and thereby forced a definition.
If this is all too intellectual, it's your doings, Thomas. And, by the way, I can't believe you snuck in a reference to "A Separate Peace", in small caps, in one of your replies. So I refuse to take responsibility for the ramblings above. I do believe, you are being gently provocative, to get us to do some thinking.
In my case, that will always produce a tangled, messy, over-thinky reply.
Well Tony, you also certainly put out a lot to think about here. Jack as the non-Ennis. Or perhaps the Alter-Ennis. Let me think about this.
And yes, the reference to "A Separate Peace" was deliberate -- I am quite sure you understand. It is in keeping with the subject of this thread, in fact.
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On the surface, I am sure that the Final Confrontation was along the lines of sex. But I am sure you will agree, MG, that this only proved a catalyst for all the pent-up feelings that welled up inside of them over the years -- especially in Jack's case. I think Jack's sexual need hid a deeper frustration of wanting more from Ennis -- something that he never really had and had always desired. Hence the valedictory in the short story and the Dozy Embrace.
I think that Jack was not bitching about having not enough sex. I mean, he sure did that, but only after Ennis asked about Mexico!! Jack was complaining about never having enough time with Ennis, about Ennis not being able to do it in August. Jack bitched about the few sex to explain Ennis why he went Mexico. What really did matter to him what that he missed Ennis and he was left with such a few time to share with him.
Maybe Ennis didn't know that that was love and maybe the confrontation scene was about sex, but for me Jack was full aware of what he felt was love. You don't keep two shirts for 20 years because you think you have great sex with your friend. You don't want your ashes up in a mountain because you had there the most incredible sex of your life, and you don't say that your favorite place is a mountain only because you had sex there.
Ennis had to see that Jack felt love, because Jack keep asking him for a life together over for over 20 years. We see Jack saying that after the reunion scene; then when Jack drove all the way up when he got that postcard about Ennis divorce; then when Ennis was cleaning things by the river Jack asked Ennis why he didn't move to Texas (no Colorado or other state, just Texas where Jack lived); and maybe during all those years Jack asked Ennis a few times more. Even a brokie said to me that Jack asked Ennis why he didn't marry again just to prove his point to Ennis, like trying to force to Ennis to say that he didn't re marry because he didn't like women, he wanted only Jack!!
I'm trying to say that Ennis had to be blind to not see that Jack loved him, that that was not only sex (who asks someone during 20 years to live together because he/she has great sex?); but then, I didn't understand why Ennis was so shocked. Thomas, you said that Ennis was so shocked because he didn't know how deep Jack loved him, and I agree...but I read that AP tried to make think that that was a very deep friendship with sex from Jack's part and she wanted to punch us at the end when we read about the DE and read about Ennis finding the shirts and Lureen talking about Jack's wishes.
Now I don't know if Ennis knew or not...but I think that the confrontation scene was not about sex but about love, even if Jack couldn't say it (after that he thought about the DE, a sexless moment) and Ennis didn't realize about it.
I know, what a mess I wrote...I have the ideas in my head but I don't know how to write them. Sorry.
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I think that Jack was not bitching about having not enough sex. I mean, he sure did that, but only after Ennis asked about Mexico!! Jack was complaining about never having enough time with Ennis, about Ennis not being able to do it in August. Jack bitched about the few sex to explain Ennis why he went Mexico. What really did matter to him what that he missed Ennis and he was left with such a few time to share with him.
I agree with this. Ennis bringing up Mexico made Jack bristle, because it probably struck him as a little petty, given what he truly desired.
Maybe Ennis didn't know that that was love and maybe the confrontation scene was about sex, but for me Jack was full aware of what he felt was love. You don't keep two shirts for 20 years because you think you have great sex with your friend. You don't want your ashes up in a mountain because you had there the most incredible sex of your life, and you don't say that your favorite place is a mountain only because you had sex there.
Ennis had to see that Jack felt love, because Jack keep asking him for a life together over for over 20 years. We see Jack saying that after the reunion scene; then when Jack drove all the way up when he got that postcard about Ennis divorce; then when Ennis was cleaning things by the river Jack asked Ennis why he didn't move to Texas (no Colorado or other state, just Texas where Jack lived); and maybe during all those years Jack asked Ennis a few times more. Even a brokie said to me that Jack asked Ennis why he didn't marry again just to prove his point to Ennis, like trying to force to Ennis to say that he didn't re marry because he didn't like women, he wanted only Jack!!
I'm trying to say that Ennis had to be blind to not see that Jack loved him, that that was not only sex (who asks someone during 20 years to live together because he/she has great sex?); but then, I didn't understand why Ennis was so shocked. Thomas, you said that Ennis was so shocked because he didn't know how deep Jack loved him, and I agree...but I read that AP tried to make think that that was a very deep friendship with sex from Jack's part and she wanted to punch us at the end when we read about the DE and read about Ennis finding the shirts and Lureen talking about Jack's wishes.
Now I don't know if Ennis knew or not...but I think that the confrontation scene was not about sex but about love, even if Jack couldn't say it (after that he thought about the DE, a sexless moment) and Ennis didn't realize about it.
I know, what a mess I wrote...I have the ideas in my head but I don't know how to write them. Sorry.
It is really hard to read Ennis. And I suspect that he sort of knew and did not know the extent of Jack's love. Again, this goes back to the thing about taking people and their love for granted. We sort of know that our parents love us, but it sort of hits us differently when they are no longer with us. I think the extent of Ennis's "knowledge" has many gray areas along these lines. It is a very human thing to do: to know and yet not really know -- all at the same time.
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It is a very human thing to do: to know and yet not really know -- all at the same time.
Dear Baby Tammy - I do understand what you are trying to say -- how could Ennis NOT know Jack loved him? So, am quoting Thomas as he said it so very well. But also adding my own --- again, Ennis didn't know the depth of Jack's love and because he saw Jack liking sex with other guys as well, he'd always have had some doubts.
And you are right, the confrontation scene was about love, very much so, but it started out on the issue of frequency of sex. So it went:
-Jack complains - not enough sex (and he explicitly says sex, rather than companionship)
-Ennis makes excuses
-Jack won't accept them
-Ennis is enraged and asks if he's gotten sex elsewhere
-Jack fires back and says he wishes he could break from the relationship
-Ennis breaks down, emotionally
-Jack gives in, up to a point
It starts about sex, but ends about the depth of love they had for each other. What pisses me off is that enough emotion was shown for both of them to know there was more love there than had been expressed before. Ennis had never wept before, in front of Jack.
There was enough there for a revolution in their relationship as big as the one in FNIT and SNIT and the reunion. It was all there. And went wrong.
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Dear Baby Tammy - I do understand what you are trying to say -- how could Ennis NOT know Jack loved him? So, am quoting Thomas as he said it so very well. But also adding my own --- again, Ennis didn't know the depth of Jack's love and because he saw Jack liking sex with other guys as well, he'd always have had some doubts.
Exactly. He had been misled by his own doubts about Jack and Jack's needs when it came to him (i.e., Ennis).
And you are right, the confrontation scene was about love, very much so, but it started out on the issue of frequency of sex. So it went:
-Jack complains - not enough sex (and he explicitly says sex, rather than companionship)
-Ennis makes excuses
-Jack won't accept them
-Ennis is enraged and asks if he's gotten sex elsewhere
-Jack fires back and says he wishes he could break from the relationship
-Ennis breaks down, emotionally
-Jack gives in, up to a point
It starts about sex, but ends about the depth of love they had for each other. What pisses me off is that enough emotion was shown for both of them to know there was more love there than had been expressed before. Ennis had never wept before, in front of Jack.
There was enough there for a revolution in their relationship as big as the one in FNIT and SNIT and the reunion. It was all there. And went wrong.
The whole FC scene really takes off when Jack said "I did once." I am not exactly sure why Ennis responded to this by bringing up Mexico, except perhaps it was the most convenient thing to bring up to "get even" with Jack, for bringing up Ennis's past refusal to live a life of love together. Or perhaps Ennis doubted Jack's faithfulness in living a life of love together, and brought up Mexico as an example.
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By extension, Ennis did not fully exist....until Jack arrived. Not that he was a collapsed reality, as in modern physics. More like his hurts and needs and traumas were not exceptional and lacked their fullest meaning, until the confrontation with ....the non-Ennis, the outsider, Jack Twist. He didn't know what he was missing in his life until that something showed up and thereby forced a definition.
Am sorry to be quoting myself, but it was easier than re-writing. I wonder how much it is true, that our hurts do not fully exist until we can tell of them. That may even be part of delayed stress syndrome, where soldiers cannot confront trauma until later, when it is safe.
Ennis, then, was not walking around with his ghosts fully activated, the lonely childhood, the murder of Earl, the unusual strangeness to his parents death (they found the one unusual place TO die, that was illogical) until there was someone who gave a damn enough to listen, Jack Twist. And then the ghosts, the traumas materialized into a crippling reality, even as healing was there, at hand.
Maybe we don't fully exist, each of us, unless meeting others forces self-definition. Am not saying our lives aren't real, just that we often let them stay unexamined and vague, until we are in the company of another person.
The meaning of Earl and Rich, then, didn't become central until Jack arrived. The loneliness and discardability was bearable, until Jack arrived. Aintfoolin wondered HOW they fell into such a deep love on the mountain. Maybe, in the company of the other, isolated in the wilderness, they each found themselves and then from there went on to love the one that allowed that, accepted who they were, and showed the same need.
This is NOT over-thinky. It's probably true, we don't fully develop as a person, or materialize, unless there is the other, who brings that into being.
Consider a personal hurt in your own life, and then, see how much more it goes from vague to very definable, when there is someone who cares enough to hear. That was there, then, for Ennis and must also have been there for Jack. Especially as he sat on the hill at night, watching Ennis off in the distance,
Jack, it may well be, found himself, by seeing his need.
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Tony, that is not over-thinky at all, and it is beautifully expressed. I absolutely think you make a very relevant and insightful point there. And I also believe that it applies to all of us in some way.
This is what I meant about your posts being visual for me. I can practically see Jack and Ennis finding themselves in each other, and all of the pain and joy that went with that. Thanks. :^^)
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Dear Baby Tammy - I do understand what you are trying to say -- how could Ennis NOT know Jack loved him? So, am quoting Thomas as he said it so very well. But also adding my own --- again, Ennis didn't know the depth of Jack's love and because he saw Jack liking sex with other guys as well, he'd always have had some doubts.
And you are right, the confrontation scene was about love, very much so, but it started out on the issue of frequency of sex. So it went:
-Jack complains - not enough sex (and he explicitly says sex, rather than companionship)
-Ennis makes excuses
-Jack won't accept them
-Ennis is enraged and asks if he's gotten sex elsewhere
-Jack fires back and says he wishes he could break from the relationship
-Ennis breaks down, emotionally
-Jack gives in, up to a point
It starts about sex, but ends about the depth of love they had for each other. What pisses me off is that enough emotion was shown for both of them to know there was more love there than had been expressed before. Ennis had never wept before, in front of Jack.
There was enough there for a revolution in their relationship as big as the one in FNIT and SNIT and the reunion. It was all there. And went wrong.
Tony, friend, thank you so much for your reply.
I think Jack complains about not enough time, not about not enough sex. Ennis told him that he couldn't make it in August and then Jack bitched about cold and then said that they never have enough time. Then Ennis made excuses and asked Jack about better ideas. Jack said "I did once" and Ennis started the Mexico thing, and Jack went on talking about sex, but about love too, because he said that they could have had a good life together in their own house but Ennis didn't want.
Am sorry to be quoting myself, but it was easier than re-writing. I wonder how much it is true, that our hurts do not fully exist until we can tell of them. That may even be part of delayed stress syndrome, where soldiers cannot confront trauma until later, when it is safe.
Ennis, then, was not walking around with his ghosts fully activated, the lonely childhood, the murder of Earl, the unusual strangeness to his parents death (they found the one unusual place TO die, that was illogical) until there was someone who gave a damn enough to listen, Jack Twist. And then the ghosts, the traumas materialized into a crippling reality, even as healing was there, at hand.
Maybe we don't fully exist, each of us, unless meeting others forces self-definition. Am not saying our lives aren't real, just that we often let them stay unexamined and vague, until we are in the company of another person.
The meaning of Earl and Rich, then, didn't become central until Jack arrived. The loneliness and discardability was bearable, until Jack arrived. Aintfoolin wondered HOW they fell into such a deep love on the mountain. Maybe, in the company of the other, isolated in the wilderness, they each found themselves and then from there went on to love the one that allowed that, accepted who they were, and showed the same need.
This is NOT over-thinky. It's probably true, we don't fully develop as a person, or materialize, unless there is the other, who brings that into being.
Consider a personal hurt in your own life, and then, see how much more it goes from vague to very definable, when there is someone who cares enough to hear. That was there, then, for Ennis and must also have been there for Jack. Especially as he sat on the hill at night, watching Ennis off in the distance,
Jack, it may well be, found himself, by seeing his need.
I love this post!!! ^f^
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Tony, friend, thank you so much for your reply.
I think Jack complains about not enough time, not about not enough sex. Ennis told him that he couldn't make it in August and then Jack bitched about cold and then said that they never have enough time. Then Ennis made excuses and asked Jack about better ideas. Jack said "I did once" and Ennis started the Mexico thing, and Jack went on talking about sex, but about love too, because he said that they could have had a good life together in their own house but Ennis didn't want.
Well said,Tammy¡ :clap: I think also that the main reason of Jack's complaining was the lack of a real time together,without the clock always as their main enemy.Sex in this confrontation is for me only an excuse,the peak of the iceberg of a situation that must be spoken about a lot of time before.Lack of time avoided them to feel each other body,yes,but also each other's soul,each other's feelings,each other's LOVE...I've always thought that this "couple of high altitude fucks once or twice a year" meant only that Jack was complaining about Ennis way of thinking; that he believed Jack had enough with the company altogether with some sex that he gave him few times a year.And Jack,of course(even with a greater need of sex than his fellow)needed indeed something else,much more else than that;he needed to know that his real love-not his more or less good lover,that he could find in other places...-felt the same for him,wanted the same than him and needed completely the same than he needed him too.Not little thing...
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Well said,Tammy¡ :clap: I think also that the main reason of Jack's complaining was the lack of a real time together,without the clock always as their main enemy.Sex in this confrontation is for me only an excuse,the peak of the iceberg of a situation that must be spoken about a lot of time before.Lack of time avoided them to feel each other body,yes,but also each other's soul,each other's feelings,each other's LOVE...I've always thought that this "couple of high altitude fucks once or twice a year" meant only that Jack was complaining about Ennis way of thinking; that he believed Jack had enough with the company altogether with some sex that he gave him few times a year.And Jack,of course(even with a greater need of sex than his fellow)needed indeed something else,much more else than that;he needed to know that his real love-not his more or less good lover,that he could find in other places...-felt the same for him,wanted the same than him and needed completely the same than he needed him too.Not little thing...
I feel Jack was thinking of it as a continous affair. One that meant, even when they were'nt *together* they were together. The long periods of time in between meant nothing in terms of them not still being a couple. No " out of sight, out of mind for him. Jack was constantly buliding on the relationship, making plans for a future and actually percieved at times as the one *driving* the relationship, keeping it going . Had he just stopped showing up, and stopped contact with Ennis completly, Ennis would probably be totally lost. It would require him to travel beyond the coffee pot trying to find the handle , get in his truck and go find Jack. Maybe in a fanfic, but would Ennis really gear up to do this? I wonder. , go to Childress and find Jack? I'm not sure, but I seriously doubt it. Maybe I'm wrong, who knows? It took Jack's death for Ennis to go to LF.
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Am sorry to be quoting myself, but it was easier than re-writing. I wonder how much it is true, that our hurts do not fully exist until we can tell of them. That may even be part of delayed stress syndrome, where soldiers cannot confront trauma until later, when it is safe.
Ennis, then, was not walking around with his ghosts fully activated, the lonely childhood, the murder of Earl, the unusual strangeness to his parents death (they found the one unusual place TO die, that was illogical) until there was someone who gave a damn enough to listen, Jack Twist. And then the ghosts, the traumas materialized into a crippling reality, even as healing was there, at hand.
Maybe we don't fully exist, each of us, unless meeting others forces self-definition. Am not saying our lives aren't real, just that we often let them stay unexamined and vague, until we are in the company of another person.
The meaning of Earl and Rich, then, didn't become central until Jack arrived. The loneliness and discardability was bearable, until Jack arrived. Aintfoolin wondered HOW they fell into such a deep love on the mountain. Maybe, in the company of the other, isolated in the wilderness, they each found themselves and then from there went on to love the one that allowed that, accepted who they were, and showed the same need.
This is NOT over-thinky. It's probably true, we don't fully develop as a person, or materialize, unless there is the other, who brings that into being.
Consider a personal hurt in your own life, and then, see how much more it goes from vague to very definable, when there is someone who cares enough to hear. That was there, then, for Ennis and must also have been there for Jack. Especially as he sat on the hill at night, watching Ennis off in the distance,
Jack, it may well be, found himself, by seeing his need.
Wonderful post. Indeed , interacting with others can bring out the best or worst of us. Often we are self-defined by the way others see us. This interaction also allows one to find their, infinite possibilites and their limits. I love what you said about Jack and Ennis allowing each other to find themselves.Jack had the courage to reach out to Ennis and found that Ennis was capable of reaching back. He had something to say, feelings, and a story to tell that otherwise would not have been heard. all because Jack was willing to listen to it.Jack told his story also and found that Ennis could relate to a great deal, an amazing, thoughtful post putting a lot into perspective . Thanx.
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Am sorry to be quoting myself, but it was easier than re-writing. I wonder how much it is true, that our hurts do not fully exist until we can tell of them. That may even be part of delayed stress syndrome, where soldiers cannot confront trauma until later, when it is safe.
Ennis, then, was not walking around with his ghosts fully activated, the lonely childhood, the murder of Earl, the unusual strangeness to his parents death (they found the one unusual place TO die, that was illogical) until there was someone who gave a damn enough to listen, Jack Twist. And then the ghosts, the traumas materialized into a crippling reality, even as healing was there, at hand.
Maybe we don't fully exist, each of us, unless meeting others forces self-definition. Am not saying our lives aren't real, just that we often let them stay unexamined and vague, until we are in the company of another person.
The meaning of Earl and Rich, then, didn't become central until Jack arrived. The loneliness and discardability was bearable, until Jack arrived. Aintfoolin wondered HOW they fell into such a deep love on the mountain. Maybe, in the company of the other, isolated in the wilderness, they each found themselves and then from there went on to love the one that allowed that, accepted who they were, and showed the same need.
This is NOT over-thinky. It's probably true, we don't fully develop as a person, or materialize, unless there is the other, who brings that into being.
Consider a personal hurt in your own life, and then, see how much more it goes from vague to very definable, when there is someone who cares enough to hear. That was there, then, for Ennis and must also have been there for Jack. Especially as he sat on the hill at night, watching Ennis off in the distance,
Jack, it may well be, found himself, by seeing his need.
I think it is true. The analogy about soldiers si very apt, IMO. It is pain that defines us in critical moments of life -- it brings us in touch with our own humanity/mortality. But most of all, it is the presence of the other that makes such an expereince tangible. As a philosopher once said, there is no "I" without the "other" when we speak of the human condition.
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I feel Jack was thinking of it as a continous affair. One that meant, even when they were'nt *together* they were together. The long periods of time in between meant nothing in terms of them not still being a couple. No " out of sight, out of mind for him. Jack was constantly buliding on the relationship, making plans for a future and actually percieved at times as the one *driving* the relationship, keeping it going . Had he just stopped showing up, and stopped contact with Ennis completly, Ennis would probably be totally lost. It would require him to travel beyond the coffee pot trying to find the handle , get in his truck and go find Jack. Maybe in a fanfic, but would Ennis really gear up to do this? I wonder. , go to Childress and find Jack? I'm not sure, but I seriously doubt it. Maybe I'm wrong, who knows? It took Jack's death for Ennis to go to LF.
These are very insightful, AF. I agree with you, but also note that it was also a continuing struggle for Jack. He didn't want to stay within the "safe" zones when it came to friendship and love (the same goes for sex, obviously!). As I said in another post, he was always stretching boundaries -- his own and others (i.e., Ennis.)
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Wow, so many wonderful comments. I haven't had time to catch up on all of them, but the few that jumped out, I just have to respond:
Tony, amazing insight again about the pain of loneliness being hidden until they were on the mountain, together, alone, and finding each of their own self, then each other. I love that. They did not feel the loneliness until they found someone who accepted themselves. Once felt accepted, they were able to bring it out of each other. Brokeback Mountain was the catalyst that broke down the walls of isolation, in the isolated wilderness.
Aintfooln, again wonderful insight. Jack drove the relationship, and Ennis reacted. Jack pushed the boundaries, in everything he did, and Ennis followed, making the dreams into solid reality. Without Jack, Ennis was stuck in the mud. Without Ennis, Jack was flying off in all directions. They were perfect for each other. They needed each other. Jack saw it, Ennis didn't until too late.
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Wonderful insights fellow Brokies! :clap:
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Watching a couple movies made me think again about Friendship, Sex and Love.
Straight Boys, a short film about a college student having a crush on his straight roommate and best friend.
Gone but not Forgetten, a 2003 movie about the love that developed between a forest ranger who rescued a man who suffered memory loss.
L'homme que J'aime, a movie about a gay man's pursuit of a straight co-worker, and their ensuing beautiful love story.
It brought up an interesting question, if a man can change his sexual orientation. I won't give away the plot, but I have concluded for myself, that the old labels of gay and straight are simply inadequate when it comes to describing human sexuality. Even the new continuum of rainbow spectrum of 0 to 100% is not sufficient because it leaves out many other factors, from time and circumstance, to personalities and chemistry.
Most men are gay or straight and will remain so, no matter what.
Some men will change given the right circumstances.
I think the so-called "bromance" between straight men happens to all adolescents, but the gay men react with the desire to take it to a different level, while the straight men do not, for whatever reason (mostly biochemical).
And so goes the process of Friendship, Sex, Love. Gay men continues down the path, sometimes arriving at love. Many, like Ennis, suffers from the distorted view of their sex, and never arrives at love.
So, was Ennis gay? Was Lucas gay? Was Morgan gay? Was Mark gay?
Does the question make sense?
Only if the expected answer is important to the person asking the question. So, yes, to Jack, to Martin, to Ben, to Andrew, but no, to the rest of the world. I don't know if that makes sense, but it makes the most sense to me out of the ambiguity that surrounds this concept of love between Ennis and Jack, and now Lucas and Martin, Mark and Andrew, and Ben and Morgan.
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I have concluded for myself, that the old labels of gay and straight are simply inadequate when it comes to describing human sexuality. Even the new continuum of rainbow spectrum of 0 to 100% is not sufficient because it leaves out many other factors, from time and circumstance, to personalities and chemistry.
Most men are gay or straight and will remain so, no matter what.
Some men will change given the right circumstances.
I will get to Ennis and Jack, but by a circuitous route. There has been a lot of progress in exploring potential for male-to-male sexuality and there does seem to be multiple routes to becoming or being gay, including biological for some, environmental (early formative years) for others, and then for another group altogether, some kind of rolling of the dice in a 0-100% continuum. With just these in play, there is much squabbling, particularly if someone has an agenda. Yet I still believe, person-by-person, there is a definable answer and we will know that after more serious research.
But, it has occurred to me, all of that has to do with figuring out why a male WANTS sex with another male. Last week, I had a major "Oy, vay" over adding in the opposite. What about males who do not want sex with another male but do want to be desired by other males? Where did I get this from? The new wave of athletes and celebs (soccer star Beckham comes to mind) who encourage and admit to enjoying being sex symbols for gays. Developing this further, I would say a hefty % of straight men, who have no lust for other males, still find some enjoyment out of being sexually attractive not only to gays, but also to, say an admiring straight buddy. And how much of the bodybuilding cult derives from that?
REALLY digging deep, I think it is fair to say, a significant number of straight males, who are not going to have sex with another guy, still derive some happy/happy over....being wanted. And it may even be the mark of healthy mental and emotional development. On Dirtbiker's thread - "Men in Uniform.." there is one particular photo of 3 soldiers and one is play-acting about oral sex with his buddy, who has a happy/happy grin on his face. They aren't gay.
They're goofing off. My point is that we also have to throw into the equations....not only a males desire for another male, but the 0-100% continuum on whether the OPPOSITE is going on, wanting to be wanted. Even if straight.
Now to Jack and Ennis. This screws up the works. If Jack was deeply in need of male ratification, and enjoyed being wanted, and might even provoke that, then there might be Andrew's rare possibility of, in FNIT, the gravitational forces of both continuums (desire for, and need to be wanted)...turning a very intimate friendship love into Jack going bi or gay. The same, very likely occuring with Ennis but the continuums different (low desire for same gender sex, high need to be wanted), thus explaining Jack's promiscuity and Ennis sticking with only Jack.
All I know is that it's probably easy to define gradations of a male wanting sex with another male, but the opposite, wanting to be desirable is really there, but has yet to be admitted or explored.
A REAL easy way to simplify this is that many straights guys are not disgusted with being seen as "hot" by gay guys. They don't want the sex, but they do appreciate being considered desirable. They may be the most mentally healthy of all straight guys.
But Ennis and Jack? IMO, this factors in to FNIT and the subliminal flirting before then. Friendship and love had developed. The 2 opposite continuums led to sex and from there, to their differing requirements.
Phew. Can I do a long post, or what?
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I will get to Ennis and Jack, but by a circuitous route. There has been a lot of progress in exploring potential for male-to-male sexuality and there does seem to be multiple routes to becoming or being gay, including biological for some, environmental (early formative years) for others, and then for another group altogether, some kind of rolling of the dice in a 0-100% continuum. With just these in play, there is much squabbling, particularly if someone has an agenda. Yet I still believe, person-by-person, there is a definable answer and we will know that after more serious research.
But, it has occurred to me, all of that has to do with figuring out why a male WANTS sex with another male. Last week, I had a major "Oy, vay" over adding in the opposite. What about males who do not want sex with another male but do want to be desired by other males? Where did I get this from? The new wave of athletes and celebs (soccer star Beckham comes to mind) who encourage and admit to enjoying being sex symbols for gays. Developing this further, I would say a hefty % of straight men, who have no lust for other males, still find some enjoyment out of being sexually attractive not only to gays, but also to, say an admiring straight buddy. And how much of the bodybuilding cult derives from that?
REALLY digging deep, I think it is fair to say, a significant number of straight males, who are not going to have sex with another guy, still derive some happy/happy over....being wanted. And it may even be the mark of healthy mental and emotional development. On Dirtbiker's thread - "Men in Uniform.." there is one particular photo of 3 soldiers and one is play-acting about oral sex with his buddy, who has a happy/happy grin on his face. They aren't gay.
They're goofing off. My point is that we also have to throw into the equations....not only a males desire for another male, but the 0-100% continuum on whether the OPPOSITE is going on, wanting to be wanted. Even if straight.
Now to Jack and Ennis. This screws up the works. If Jack was deeply in need of male ratification, and enjoyed being wanted, and might even provoke that, then there might be Andrew's rare possibility of, in FNIT, the gravitational forces of both continuums (desire for, and need to be wanted)...turning a very intimate friendship love into Jack going bi or gay. The same, very likely occuring with Ennis but the continuums different (low desire for same gender sex, high need to be wanted), thus explaining Jack's promiscuity and Ennis sticking with only Jack.
All I know is that it's probably easy to define gradations of a male wanting sex with another male, but the opposite, wanting to be desirable is really there, but has yet to be admitted or explored.
A REAL easy way to simplify this is that many straights guys are not disgusted with being seen as "hot" by gay guys. They don't want the sex, but they do appreciate being considered desirable. They may be the most mentally healthy of all straight guys.
But Ennis and Jack? IMO, this factors in to FNIT and the subliminal flirting before then. Friendship and love had developed. The 2 opposite continuums led to sex and from there, to their differing requirements.
Phew. Can I do a long post, or what?
Long or short, Tony, your posts are always thought provoking, and this concept of straight males WANTing to be desired by gay males is a great mind-opener.
I will have to think on it to respond fully. My first reaction is that you got something there. I think this desire is an extension of feeling validated, being desired by straight women. And you are absolutely right that these men are psychologically the healthiest, because they don't have hang-ups.
:clap: (:)
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What Tony said is true. I know a straight guy, 100% straight, who likes when gay men say that he's hot, and who likes being wanted. This friend of mine is a brokie too, and he loves when our other brokie gay friends say to him things about how sexy he is. ;D ;D
Wonderful post, friend. ^f^
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[...]
I also see a triple hit: first real friendship; the sex...worked (FNIT), and romantic love roared out and over them (to use your words) in SNIT. One unexpected punch after another.
As for the progression in each, individually, am not sure. You mention when Jack wiped the blood off of Ennis' forehead. And that tenderness looked to me like Jack had jumped from friendship to romantic love, before the sex. That was a very tender scene, up close.
But there still would be 3 separate categories through the years: friendship (riding through the streams), sex (always there, at every meeting up), and romantic love, breaking through, at times. What was the mixture in each, I wonder? Did Ennis tilt towards a sacred friendship, not trusting the other 2?
It's funny, how coincidence sometimes come when least expected.
I've bookmarked this thread ages ago, and sometimes come directly to it and signon at the same. Today, it just happened that i forgot to signon, and started reading right the way, not realizing the thread is displayed oldest first (the default order) instead of the newest first, my preference setting.
Reading Tony's initial start of the thread back in May, I thought it was a new post, and was about to respond to it, thinking it was insightful and funny, and was eager to comment on it.
Then I realized those very insights were from May, and still held true, but now I've seen other movies that made them even more universal and beneficial.
Four other movies can benefit from understanding this triple hit progression, to coin a phrase from Tony's description above. I will focus on two for now, to keep this brief. The movies are: Summer Storm, Gone But not Forgotten, Straight Boys, and L'homme que J'aime. Each movie involves two friends, or strangers who become friends, and either stay friends or progress into triple hit.
******** spoilers alert - plot details of Straight Boys and Summer Storm **********
In Summer Storm and Straight Boys, the best friends did not progress further, because one of them was straight. In Straight Boys, the straight best friend even tried to take it to the next level, to kiss and become intimate, but could not. The two movies that I'd focus on, progressed to triple hit, and I'd say, home run, altogether.
********** end of spoilers ********************************************
What makes the coincidence even more interesting, is the post from Manhattengirl that addressed the question which bugged me since I watched L'homme que J'aime. How did Jack knew that Ennis was the one, or did he? How did Jack get up the courage to take Ennis' hand? Or, was it just taking a chance, as Jack was often apt to do. The same courage and risk-taking can be seen in the other two movies. For Ennis, Lucas, Mark, and Andrew, love found them. But for Jack, Martin, and to some degree Andrew, they had to take up the courage and risk-taking, to embrace the love of their love without knowing how it will end, with no guarantee. They were lucky.
That's where I am at, nowadays, thinking this over. Or perhaps as Andrew said in Gone but not Forgotten,"...you are thinking too much."
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I've bookmarked this thread ages ago,
Well, I certainly hope so, since you were the origin of this theme. Back when you first came to the forum, Andrew, I was also a newbie and had a thread: "Ennis and Jack-Change and Redemption" and in a similar thread of your own, there was the beginning of the question of sex and friendship and love.
I am too lazy to review those two threads, however I do remember your directly or accidentally questioning the interplay of those three.
Some issues lingered in my mind, and it just took me a long time to look in the direction you were pointing. Think of the Joker glaring down the dark street, mumbling "This city deserves a better class of criminal....", keep the same visual image, but it's really me, saying: "This joint deserves a better class of plagiarist...." and....away...we....go! The concept, Andrew, was originally yours. And is much appreciated.
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Well, Tony, I trust your recall and judgment. I remember we both had discussion of friendship and sex and love. But no matter the source or origin, you started this thread with you insightful, and looking back, funny take, on the trailer scene. That never occurred to me at first reading, probably because I was too focused back then on the friendship and love sides of the triple play.
And Tony, it is your regularly consistent laser-guided comments with a view from out of this world perspective that keeps new insights fresh and always surfacing from time to time.
As I highlighted earlier, it never occurred to me that Ennis had his focus on the friendship and love part, and consequently was happy with a couple high-attitude f#$%s a few times a year, whereas Jack was more into the complete relationship, expecting every aspect to be a reflection of their love. In that sense, Jack is the more gay of the two.
********** Spoilers Alert ********* [ plot details of Straight Boys, and L'homme que J'aime ]
Just as straight men often have friendship and relationships, even with gay men, but never take that extra step, to consummate the sexual aspect, as Morgan in Straight Boys tried but failed to make love to Ben. Their friendship remained, but it never went to the next level. Morgan even said to Ben that he loved him, and in a way, his love was the motive force that led him to initiate the kiss with Ben. But he could not continue, said, "I am sorry." and walked away. So some straight men cannot change, not even for the love. Similarly, Lucas, in L'homme que J'aime, was in a long term relationship with Lise his girl friend, when he met Martin, whose relentless and aggressive pursuit, and chance encounter in the hospital led him to develop feelings of love and friendship that finally led to sex. As you recently posted, and Tammy elaborated, there are healthy straight men who find it ego-boosting and self-validating to have gay men attracted to them. It is perhaps a part of relationship between Ben and Morgan. Ben's almost hero-worship of Morgan gives Morgan the confidence he needs. Without Ben, Morgan would be just another guy; but with his side-kick, Morgan is the super-hero. The same dynamic was the basis of Lucas' relationship with Martin. I won't give away too much of the plot because the movie is simply too beautiful to be spoiled. Straight Boys was just a short 15 minutes exploration of the relationship between Ben and Morgan, but L'homme que J'aime is a much deeper and more profound exploration of the love between gay men.
*********** end of spoilers ***********************
To return to the triple hit, it occurs to me, after the coincidental rereading of your initial post, that perhpas many relationships are built on the Jack-Ennis Martin-Lucas model, where the motive force is from one side, and the other side simply respond to the sex as a result of their love, but the sex is not a necessary or even crucial part of it. It is simply the flame that sparks more fire of love. But the object of their real desire is the warmth from the fire of love. Ennis in the SNIT was experiencing the roar of love...as Manhattengirl so poeticly put it, and I recall your use of the train roaring by in the first scene, as the symbol of the force of nature. The word roar is beautifully apt here.
And as I pointed out earlier, the question is really what motivated Jack and Martin in their pursuit of Ennis and Lucas? That is the deeper mystery of love. How did they know?
I will stop rambling on...which I can do for pages at a time. ;)
Thanks again for your insights, bud. :ghug: :c)
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Watching a couple movies made me think again about Friendship, Sex and Love.
Straight Boys, a short film about a college student having a crush on his straight roommate and best friend.
Gone but not Forgetten, a 2003 movie about the love that developed between a forest ranger who rescued a man who suffered memory loss.
L'homme que J'aime, a movie about a gay man's pursuit of a straight co-worker, and their ensuing beautiful love story.
It brought up an interesting question, if a man can change his sexual orientation. I won't give away the plot, but I have concluded for myself, that the old labels of gay and straight are simply inadequate when it comes to describing human sexuality. Even the new continuum of rainbow spectrum of 0 to 100% is not sufficient because it leaves out many other factors, from time and circumstance, to personalities and chemistry.
Most men are gay or straight and will remain so, no matter what.
Some men will change given the right circumstances.
I think the so-called "bromance" between straight men happens to all adolescents, but the gay men react with the desire to take it to a different level, while the straight men do not, for whatever reason (mostly biochemical).
And so goes the process of Friendship, Sex, Love. Gay men continues down the path, sometimes arriving at love. Many, like Ennis, suffers from the distorted view of their sex, and never arrives at love.
So, was Ennis gay? Was Lucas gay? Was Morgan gay? Was Mark gay?
Does the question make sense?
Only if the expected answer is important to the person asking the question. So, yes, to Jack, to Martin, to Ben, to Andrew, but no, to the rest of the world. I don't know if that makes sense, but it makes the most sense to me out of the ambiguity that surrounds this concept of love between Ennis and Jack, and now Lucas and Martin, Mark and Andrew, and Ben and Morgan.
Interesting comments lance.
I watched last Friday the new film of "Brideshead Revisited." I know that the freidnship between Charles Ryder and Sebastian Flyte have been analyzed to death, but it is interesting to note that many critics objected to the slight shift of emphasis in the movie: that Charles's love for Sebastian was purely platonic.
Well, I think Waugh was ambiguous enough to allow for such an interpretation, although what he termed as "Romantic attachments" formed at Eton, Oxford, and Cambridge between adolescent males was transliterated as a "phase".
It would seem from this movie that Sebastian was unambiguously gay, and that Charles was opportunistically straight. It is interesting to compare and contrast their treatment of the theme of love, sex, and friendship in this movie, and friendship with that in BBM...
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Dear Thomas - I didn't know there was a new version of "Brideshead Revisited" but do, very much, think explorations of this, and the films Andrew brought up, all do return to the balancing act of friendship, sex, and love and are a great way to revisit Jack and Ennis and what was really going on there.
"Brideshead" is kind of dangerous territory, though. It was a breakthrough for gays, dazzling with the background of the British aristocracy, just as BBM dazzled with the raw, innocent beauty of the (allegedly) American West. Waugh's central theme (as a Catholic convert) was that no matter what level of debauchery a person fell into, the fishing line of God would always find them and reel them back in. In a way, the ending, where the agnostic Charles repeats the lines of an ancient prayer, giving in and finally believing, corelates very much to the ending of BBM, where Ennis also gives in, and believes in Jack's love and his prayer was: "Jack, I swear..." They both end up believing in something greater after interplay with a very lively foil.
In "Brideshead", there is a life-altering friendship, but am not sure I see any romantic love, and you have it so very right, the sex was left very much unknown. But what exactly do you mean, Charles was an opportunistic straight? A social climber? Thomas, what a phrase!
Andrew's movies seem to be less dangerous territory for going off-topic. But he is a bloodhound, heavily tracking the trail, and I think he's found it in a way that is useful to understanding Ennis and Jack, not to mention these very important implications in each person's real life.
So far, am having trouble keeping up, so will finish by saying that, despite the desire shown in the SS, I tend to believe Ennis had found a friendship so very tailored to his jagged personality, that it advanced to romantic love. He did get into the sex, big-time, but of the three elements, he could and did put sex as last. And he expressed himself in the language of faithfulness, year by year. Jack spoke a different language, and as a more sensual person, needed sex and companionship to express what still was the most profund element for him, too, the love. That's about all I can make of it.
I notice the moderators have been tolerant, so, if comparing and contrasting are allowed to continue, it's something where I have little to offer, but would enjoy reading.
Opportunistic straight? Am still bogged down in that. Thanks a lot, Thomas.
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OT: Tony, you must see the movie to know exactly what critics have meant by "opportunistic" straight. ;) http://www.bridesheadrevisited-themovie.com/ But do you think you can take a guess? I guess one can think of it in terms of the will to get what you want.
Back on topic, I wonder whether we could consider Ennis and/or Jack to be opportunistic straights? I doubt it very much...
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Interesting comments lance.
I watched last Friday the new film of "Brideshead Revisited." I know that the freidnship between Charles Ryder and Sebastian Flyte have been analyzed to death, but it is interesting to note that many critics objected to the slight shift of emphasis in the movie: that Charles's love for Sebastian was purely platonic.
Well, I think Waugh was ambiguous enough to allow for such an interpretation, although what he termed as "Romantic attachments" formed at Eton, Oxford, and Cambridge between adolescent males was transliterated as a "phase".
It would seem from this movie that Sebastian was unambiguously gay, and that Charles was opportunistically straight. It is interesting to compare and contrast their treatment of the theme of love, sex, and friendship in this movie, and friendship with that in BBM...
Okay, at the risk of being totally off topic, I will try to understand the term "opportunistically straight".
If I understand your reference in the movie correctly, (and it is likely that I don't since I have not seen the movie, but only the trailer and the plot summaries), Charles convenient chose to be straight in order to have more opportunities, as Tony mentioned, as a social climber, or simply opportunities for intercourse with any gender. It is not love, but sex that is the key here. In fact, for those really vile opportunistic persons, even the sex is secondary, but is merely the means to the ends, whatever that may be. I cannot possibly see that as in the same group as Ennis and Jack. There is no friendship, no love. In fact, I think that kind of behavior would be anti-love, anti-friendship.
Please tell me I jumped off the deep end and totally missed the boat, because I can sometimes be totally off, and misunderstand people.
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Dear Thomas - I didn't know there was a new version of "Brideshead Revisited" but do, very much, think explorations of this, and the films Andrew brought up, all do return to the balancing act of friendship, sex, and love and are a great way to revisit Jack and Ennis and what was really going on there.
"Brideshead" is kind of dangerous territory, though. It was a breakthrough for gays, dazzling with the background of the British aristocracy, just as BBM dazzled with the raw, innocent beauty of the (allegedly) American West. Waugh's central theme (as a Catholic convert) was that no matter what level of debauchery a person fell into, the fishing line of God would always find them and reel them back in. In a way, the ending, where the agnostic Charles repeats the lines of an ancient prayer, giving in and finally believing, corelates very much to the ending of BBM, where Ennis also gives in, and believes in Jack's love and his prayer was: "Jack, I swear..." They both end up believing in something greater after interplay with a very lively foil.
In "Brideshead", there is a life-altering friendship, but am not sure I see any romantic love, and you have it so very right, the sex was left very much unknown. But what exactly do you mean, Charles was an opportunistic straight? A social climber? Thomas, what a phrase!
Andrew's movies seem to be less dangerous territory for going off-topic. But he is a bloodhound, heavily tracking the trail, and I think he's found it in a way that is useful to understanding Ennis and Jack, not to mention these very important implications in each person's real life.
So far, am having trouble keeping up, so will finish by saying that, despite the desire shown in the SS, I tend to believe Ennis had found a friendship so very tailored to his jagged personality, that it advanced to romantic love. He did get into the sex, big-time, but of the three elements, he could and did put sex as last. And he expressed himself in the language of faithfulness, year by year. Jack spoke a different language, and as a more sensual person, needed sex and companionship to express what still was the most profund element for him, too, the love. That's about all I can make of it.
I notice the moderators have been tolerant, so, if comparing and contrasting are allowed to continue, it's something where I have little to offer, but would enjoy reading.
Opportunistic straight? Am still bogged down in that. Thanks a lot, Thomas.
Well, I am tempted to delete my last post, since I obviously was totally wrong. The movie sounds very interesting and profound. Your description, where I highlighted, sounds remarkably similar to the friendship in Four Feathers between Harry and Abou. I will have to find time to watch the movie.
O, I am definitely a bit of a blood-hound obsessed, sometimes. But this trail has turned up many interesting rewards already, and I think the latest discoveries can be the end of this hound dog's hunt for deeper meanings. I am happy and content with Ennis and Jack, Lucas and Martin, Mark and Andrew, Aaron and Chris and of course, Zach and Shaun. I love happy endings. ::)
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Lance, I am glad you didn't delete your previous post.
The relationship between Ennis and Jack is so different from that of Charles and Sebastian in Brideshead. But I think it is useful to compare and contrast them to bring the former relationship into sharper focus, especially in the matter of love, friendship, and sex.
The latter relationship is much much more ambiguous. In the book itself, there is hardly any explicit statement of homosexuality when it comes to the relationship between Sebastian and Charles. "Romantic attachment" is what is used to describe it. In the case of Ennis and Jack, I don't think it was as ambiguous as that. What critics didn't like about the new Brideshead was that it portrayed Sebastian as someone closer to our conception of a homosexual, although the book does imply something fo this sort in the end (albeit never explicit) and that Charles was more in love with the idea of Brideshead rather than with Sebastian (and later with Julia) and used that love to further his own idea. Sex with Sebastian was not a part of that, it would seem (although kissing was), and there is a pivotal scene in the movie when Charles publicly rebuffs Sebastian when he begins an attempt (?) of a kiss.
There is no such equivalent in BBM, either in the ss or the film. There is no such finesse.
But I do think that the element of personal searching (in matters of love and friendship, if not sex) informs both E & J and C and S. In this one element, I think they are rather similar. Charles in the movie questions himself and is challenged by others as to the underlying motivations of his friendship and love. Ennis, to a great extent questions and refuses to acknowledge his own deep seated motivations. I am not saying that Ryder or Ennis are similar -- they are vastly different. It is just interesting to me how a question of identity (vis-a-vis love and friendship) is central to both of these characters.
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I've always thought that Charles relationship with Julia was in part that in his eyes she was a female version of her brother, so was drawn to her. His relationship with Sebastian was that of childhood love and grew out of it, where Sebastian never did, and couldn't. (does this make sense?)
Jack and Ennis was that of romantic love and pure sex. I don't think Ennis was any less sexual than Jack. Ennis was sexual, wanting it, responding to it, but in fear of it, what it does to him, what Jack presence does to him, it makes him forget who they are, where they are.
It was the reunion, that kiss, and that need, that Ennis began to understand that "hey this could get us killed, but damn, I can't let it get away, got to hold on". It was was also just that pressure that caused him to break at the end. JMO.
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I've always thought that Charles relationship with Julia was in part that in his eyes she was a female version of her brother, so was drawn to her. His relationship with Sebastian was that of childhood love and grew out of it, where Sebastian never did, and couldn't. (does this make sense?)
Most commentators agree with you about Julia. What draws him to her inevitably is the image of Sebastian. The novel does not show him indicating any interest until the trip back to the UK by boat.
I don't think there is an equivalence here with Ennis and Jack, although both of them do try to find surrogates for each other -- firest, their wives, and then casual partners (in the case of Jack.)
Jack and Ennis was that of romantic love and pure sex. I don't think Ennis was any less sexual than Jack. Ennis was sexual, wanting it, responding to it, but in fear of it, what it does to him, what Jack presence does to him, it makes him forget who they are, where they are.
It was the reunion, that kiss, and that need, that Ennis began to understand that "hey this could get us killed, but damn, I can't let it get away, got to hold on". It was was also just that pressure that caused him to break at the end. JMO.
I think this is where the main difference with Ennis and Jack lies: the sex. And I agree that both of them were very sexual. In this sense, they go much further than Charles and Sebastian, whose love is indeed sensual, but perhaps not that physical.
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The appearance of "Brideshead" on this thread was, for me, like tossing a pork chop in front of a hungry dog, so I have to keep careful, to stay on-topic.
Anyway, I think in any serious relationship between 2 people, an additional entity is created. Say Ennis is X, Jack is Y, but their relationship is XY.
There's three things going on, when two people hook up. The individuals and then the created partnership, greater than the sum of X + Y, and so therefore a newly born life force.
In both "Brideshead" and BBM, the focus is on a character who seems deadened to life (curiously, both having non-loving fathers) who then meets up with what welshwitch might call a carrnivalesque life force that mesmerizes them. For Charles, it is Sebastion. For Ennis it is Jack.
Discussing the levels of friendship, sex and love between Charles and Sebastion would have me in trouble, again, for noting....the British are different.
But there definitely was an XY in "Brideshead", at least for Charles. Sebastion was so bonked out, we would never know. And, of course, the XY in BBM is why we are here, not for Ennis OR Jack, but for the XY, the great love bigger than both of them.
And here is where "Brideshead" and BBM are identical - through the relationship that troubles the deadened souls (Charles and Ennis), challenging them, they both end up.....redeemed, in the sense of seeing something more to life and the end of meaninglessness. They are both anti-existentialist.
(Existentialism is the very pervasive philosophy that there is no meaning to life; it is closely related to Marxist materialism, and Western consumer life styles). Friendship, love, and sex are more than soap opera entertainment or a promotion of gay liberation - they are instruments of redemption.
Waugh, however, has his agnostic hero accept, if not the Catholic faith, the over-all concept of belief in God, and shows that in a highly lyrical passsage at the end. Transformation has occurred. Annie has, of course, a similar lyrical ending, with a clear transformation. Ennis believes he was loved and can love. Something greater than himself exists.
Relationships then, in these two works, are something past daytime television. They move, inexorably towards a transforming belief.
P.S. I can't let this pass. I just can't. Loss of loved ones and the mindless tragedies of life, all too easily lead those who grieve into s sense of life having no meaning. The loss points to the abyss of despair. Waugh and Annie Proulx both have tragedy unmasking a force greater than the individual - love, and therefore defying the abyss. Charles and Ennis are broken men, but better broken, than what they were before.....empty.
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Very wonderful comparison, Tony! You are so right that a relationship is greater than the sum of its parts!
And your discussion of redemption in the end does make sense to me. I think in BBM, we do get that same lyrical progression (albeit tragic, as one can argue is the same in Brideshead), and that transformation through love (so Wagnerian a concept) and friendship is the common thread that binds the two stories.
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The appearance of "Brideshead" on this thread was, for me, like tossing a pork chop in front of a hungry dog, so I have to keep careful, to stay on-topic.
Anyway, I think in any serious relationship between 2 people, an additional entity is created. Say Ennis is X, Jack is Y, but their relationship is XY.
There's three things going on, when two people hook up. The individuals and then the created partnership, greater than the sum of X + Y, and so therefore a newly born life force.
[...]
P.S. I can't let this pass. I just can't. Loss of loved ones and the mindless tragedies of life, all too easily lead those who grieve into s sense of life having no meaning. The loss points to the abyss of despair. Waugh and Annie Proulx both have tragedy unmasking a force greater than the individual - love, and therefore defying the abyss. Charles and Ennis are broken men, but better broken, than what they were before.....empty.
Bravo, Tony! :clap: (:)
This hound dog hasn't seen the movie so am afraid that I won't be keeping up with you, so the pork chop is all yours. And you devoured it whole.
I love what you said...the force of nature that transformed an empty life, into a meaningful one, even if broken, is still better...love enough to hurt...
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lance, I'm afraid we'll have to continue our disucssion about this in Seattle. I am looking forward to meeting you at last. :)
Tony, I think comparing Ennis and Jack with other well-known film "couples" such as Charles and Sebastian only serves to bring out how love and friendship intertwine, and are sometimes difficult/impossible to untangle. Friendship doesn't necessarily lead to a deeper form of love, but one can say that there are many levels of friendship in that state we call love. In the case of Ennis and Jack, we can clearlt delineate these various levels of freindship as their love deepens. Would it be too hard an exercise to try to identify and discuss a number of them?
I will be gone for about a week, meeting Brokies in the West Coast. Feel free to continue the discussion, and I look forward to reading them when I get back!
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Feel free to continue the discussion, and I look forward to reading them when I get back!
Dear Thomas - darn, everybody seems to be going off for 2 weeks or so. As far as comparing other relationships with Ennis and Jack, it really is a useful way to find yet more insights about our two heroes and even learn more about our own lives. But you and Andrew are, so far, the heavy-hitters there, so there may not be much, if any, interest from other Brokies with you two gone.
If I come up with anything, I will post, but otherwise, you guys have a great trip and.....post pictures!!!!!
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Dear Thomas - darn, everybody seems to be going off for 2 weeks or so. As far as comparing other relationships with Ennis and Jack, it really is a useful way to find yet more insights about our two heroes and even learn more about our own lives. But you and Andrew are, so far, the heavy-hitters there, so there may not be much, if any, interest from other Brokies with you two gone.
If I come up with anything, I will post, but otherwise, you guys have a great trip and.....post pictures!!!!!
OT: Albert will probably be able to post pictures by Monday. ;) But do post anything that you may find especially relevant -- your last post was certainly very insightful.
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Thanks, Thomas. Will do.
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lance, I'm afraid we'll have to continue our disucssion about this in Seattle. I am looking forward to meeting you at last. :)
Tony, I think comparing Ennis and Jack with other well-known film "couples" such as Charles and Sebastian only serves to bring out how love and friendship intertwine, and are sometimes difficult/impossible to untangle. Friendship doesn't necessarily lead to a deeper form of love, but one can say that there are many levels of friendship in that state we call love. In the case of Ennis and Jack, we can clearlt delineate these various levels of freindship as their love deepens. Would it be too hard an exercise to try to identify and discuss a number of them?
I will be gone for about a week, meeting Brokies in the West Coast. Feel free to continue the discussion, and I look forward to reading them when I get back!
Hi, tpe, I am so happy to have met you at last. I love our discussion on religion and politics, which, alas, would have been off limits on the forum.
What you stated above, is, I think, the meaning of: "Love is friendship caught fire." When the different forms and instances of friendship in a relationship become so entangled and impossible to untangle, the state of feeling between the two people can be called love. This is love at its purest, without the attachment of either platonic, romantic, or erotic modifiers. It is simply the love between Ennis and Jack that paw the whites out of the moon.
I hope we can delineate the progressive levels of friendship that you asked for above. Perhaps a good place to begin would be to review the list of transformation milestones that Jackster compiled for Ennis, as the friendship progressed. I believe it is in one of the newsletters. I will endeavor to retrieve it for our discussion.
Dear Thomas - darn, everybody seems to be going off for 2 weeks or so. As far as comparing other relationships with Ennis and Jack, it really is a useful way to find yet more insights about our two heroes and even learn more about our own lives. But you and Andrew are, so far, the heavy-hitters there, so there may not be much, if any, interest from other Brokies with you two gone.
If I come up with anything, I will post, but otherwise, you guys have a great trip and.....post pictures!!!!!
No worries, Friend Tony. I will keep you company as best I can, while the heavy hitters are off in the real world, meeting real people.
The get-together was amazing, and I believe, reflects the friendship between Ennis and Jack, as they got together in the middle of no where once in a while. In fact, yesterday morning, I woke up with the sun, and found myself lying back on the pillow, while listening to my meditation music, remembering the picture of Ennis smiling to heaven, sending up a prayer of thanks. That's when tpe came over and we chatted for a long while.
I wish you can make it to a meet one day, and look forward to visiting with you in Virginia.
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Dear Andrew - glad you've been having a great time - you've been missed. As far as delineating the levels of friendship, you and Thomas seem to have some sense there could be an organized approach, and there probably is one, but it's straining my noggin to get there. Still, will try.
Despite the sexy crowd (and you KNOW who you are) that sees Ennis and Jack as wanting to boing at first sight outside Aguirre's trailer, but they couldn't because Ennis had "issues", I'd think it was fairly clear, some kind of friendship chemistry was what was starting up. They found each other to be non-threatening and likeable, and then, given they were, basically, friendless, things accelerated subtly but rapidly. They each had an unusual need for...a friend. And being isolated together only served to accelerate things further.
But, guys being guys, it's just not cool to admit you really are that interested. One thing I might be able to contribute here is that the subtle back and forth of an advancing friendship would be similar to the same subtle ways of an advancing love. Be careful, look for signs in the other, think about it (and we do see them in thoughtful scenes, considering the other, long before FNIT), and then take risks as they seem feasible. The process of checking out the other for a deep friendship, then, would be the same as for those that have fallen in love.
It looks like a friendship love was settling in fast. But I would define a friendship love as one where the death of the friend was an extreme and lasting hurt, and I don't think they had reached that level by FNIT. So, to keep this somewhat brief, it looks like: an accelerating friendship headed for the territory of friendship love, jolted by FNIT into some kind of liberated ever more extreme fast-forward zone, that went rapidly to SNIT where friendship love was validated and then trumped by the emergence of emotional/romantic love.
The only other area I might could contribute anything to is this: it went too fast. It all went so fast, they were both already there and yet still stuck in the preliminary mode of checking for signs from each other, and coming to conclusions of what to risk. So I'd end by saying, if they hadn't of been brought down from the mountain early, they would have been on schedule for a better arrangement with each other.
Well, everybody's out camping or goofing off, so, without the usual interplay, am not coming up with much that's new. But, I gave it a go.
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Dear Andrew - glad you've been having a great time - you've been missed. As far as delineating the levels of friendship, you and Thomas seem to have some sense there could be an organized approach, and there probably is one, but it's straining my noggin to get there. Still, will try.
Despite the sexy crowd (and you KNOW who you are) that sees Ennis and Jack as wanting to boing at first sight outside Aguirre's trailer, but they couldn't because Ennis had "issues", I'd think it was fairly clear, some kind of friendship chemistry was what was starting up. They found each other to be non-threatening and likeable, and then, given they were, basically, friendless, things accelerated subtly but rapidly. They each had an unusual need for...a friend. And being isolated together only served to accelerate things further.
But, guys being guys, it's just not cool to admit you really are that interested. One thing I might be able to contribute here is that the subtle back and forth of an advancing friendship would be similar to the same subtle ways of an advancing love. Be careful, look for signs in the other, think about it (and we do see them in thoughtful scenes, considering the other, long before FNIT), and then take risks as they seem feasible. The process of checking out the other for a deep friendship, then, would be the same as for those that have fallen in love.
It looks like a friendship love was settling in fast. But I would define a friendship love as one where the death of the friend was an extreme and lasting hurt, and I don't think they had reached that level by FNIT. So, to keep this somewhat brief, it looks like: an accelerating friendship headed for the territory of friendship love, jolted by FNIT into some kind of liberated ever more extreme fast-forward zone, that went rapidly to SNIT where friendship love was validated and then trumped by the emergence of emotional/romantic love.
The only other area I might could contribute anything to is this: it went too fast. It all went so fast, they were both already there and yet still stuck in the preliminary mode of checking for signs from each other, and coming to conclusions of what to risk. So I'd end by saying, if they hadn't of been brought down from the mountain early, they would have been on schedule for a better arrangement with each other.
Well, everybody's out camping or goofing off, so, without the usual interplay, am not coming up with much that's new. But, I gave it a go.
I agree with your assessment, Tony, that the Friendship Interrupted by the early 'bring 'em down' caused the difficulty later on. There was never any closure, to move on. It is why the lonely Ennis sitting on the grassy mount resonated so much with me. I sat there, like that, one day, after my friend died, wondering, thinking, feeling lost.
But I digress...Our discussion is about the friendship that developed in '63, that led to FNIT, and SNIT, and the love that bound them for four and twenty years, that led to the reunion kiss ....
One thing that occurred to me watching Brokeback Mountain on the big screen this past weekend, was that the number of sheep that they had to care for, and be responsible for, must be at first overwhelming, and then very validating when things went well. For a couple of poor nineteen-year olds with nothing much to show for their abilities, Ennis and Jack must feel very proud of their shared accomplishment. I think it is what Ang Lee tried to show in the few scenes of them chopping wood, hewing water, weathering storm and hail. The shared experience increased the entanglement of friendship; the shared pride increased the entanglement of shared identity, shared memories.
Is that not the meaning of friendship?
Well, here is the transformation milestones that Jackster came up with in this other thread:
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=12265.msg623667#msg623667
Posted by jackster on October 31
Hope, Contentment and the The Transformation of Ennis
[...] the major landmarks in this change have been marked along the way at these points or scenes, with aspects of his growth being show in (parentheses) – Just my views of course, everybody has their own special scenes.
“No more beans - orders soup” (friendship)
Shooting the elk (devotion)
“You wanna switch?” (commitment)
FNIT (lust)
SNIT (love)
“Bring ‘em Down” – “This ain’t no rodeo” (confusion)
Crying in the Alley (loss)
“You Bet” (longing)
“Come here” [the reunion kiss]. . . (passion)
“Just sending up a prayer of thanks” (self understanding)
“You ever get the feelin’ “ . . . (self awakening)
Bringing down the shirts (public coming out)
“Does he love you?” (sharing emotions)
“Jack I swear “. . . (self acceptance)
Each point marks a step, a step in the growth of Ennis to a fuller, or a more complete person. At the end we see Ennis transformed, the transformation may not be complete but it has made significant advancement. It is both sad and hopeful, both heartbreaking and inspiring. Jack is gone but the "complete" Ennis has taken his place.
Is the glass half empty or half full? I can see it both ways, depending on the day and my state of mind. To me this this is the beauty of great art, it can transform us while at the same time transforming itself, daily.
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Dear Andrew - glad you've been having a great time - you've been missed. As far as delineating the levels of friendship, you and Thomas seem to have some sense there could be an organized approach, and there probably is one, but it's straining my noggin to get there. Still, will try.
Despite the sexy crowd (and you KNOW who you are) that sees Ennis and Jack as wanting to boing at first sight outside Aguirre's trailer, but they couldn't because Ennis had "issues", I'd think it was fairly clear, some kind of friendship chemistry was what was starting up. They found each other to be non-threatening and likeable, and then, given they were, basically, friendless, things accelerated subtly but rapidly. They each had an unusual need for...a friend. And being isolated together only served to accelerate things further.
But, guys being guys, it's just not cool to admit you really are that interested. One thing I might be able to contribute here is that the subtle back and forth of an advancing friendship would be similar to the same subtle ways of an advancing love. Be careful, look for signs in the other, think about it (and we do see them in thoughtful scenes, considering the other, long before FNIT), and then take risks as they seem feasible. The process of checking out the other for a deep friendship, then, would be the same as for those that have fallen in love.
It looks like a friendship love was settling in fast. But I would define a friendship love as one where the death of the friend was an extreme and lasting hurt, and I don't think they had reached that level by FNIT. So, to keep this somewhat brief, it looks like: an accelerating friendship headed for the territory of friendship love, jolted by FNIT into some kind of liberated ever more extreme fast-forward zone, that went rapidly to SNIT where friendship love was validated and then trumped by the emergence of emotional/romantic love.
The only other area I might could contribute anything to is this: it went too fast. It all went so fast, they were both already there and yet still stuck in the preliminary mode of checking for signs from each other, and coming to conclusions of what to risk. So I'd end by saying, if they hadn't of been brought down from the mountain early, they would have been on schedule for a better arrangement with each other.
Well, everybody's out camping or goofing off, so, without the usual interplay, am not coming up with much that's new. But, I gave it a go.
Interesting terminology, Tony. I also think that they have not reached that level in FNIT. Somehow, I get the feeling that they didn't reach that level that entire summer -- perhaps only after the reunion 4 years later that they realized that they couldn't live without the other. IN a sense, it was not exactly "romantic" -- it was more a visceral need, a hunger that was beyond physical. In other words, by the time of the reunion, it had gone way beyond sex.
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Interesting terminology, Tony. I also think that they have not reached that level in FNIT. Somehow, I get the feeling that they didn't reach that level that entire summer -- perhaps only after the reunion 4 years later that they realized that they couldn't live without the other. IN a sense, it was not exactly "romantic" -- it was more a visceral need, a hunger that was beyond physical. In other words, by the time of the reunion, it had gone way beyond sex.
I love how you said that. I totally agree, Thomas. ^f^
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Well said. They complimented each other, as well as completed one another.
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I don't if this makes any sense, but I've notice that in FNIT and the Reunion, there was one factor in both, that was Jack. He took Ennis's hand, he also sends the postcard that brings them back together. This trust, and Ennis trusted Jack, he had to or he wouldn't have kissed him so passionately. It was the trust in their friendship love, and in the sexual part of their relationship that never ends, even with the separation of four years.
Jack again leads Ennis, even after his death to an understanding that his love started that first summer. JMO.
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I don't if this makes any sense, but I've notice that in FNIT and the Reunion, there was one factor in both, that was Jack. He took Ennis's hand, he also sends the postcard that brings them back together. This trust, and Ennis trusted Jack, he had to or he wouldn't have kissed him so passionately. It was the trust in their friendship love, and in the sexual part of their relationship that never ends, even with the separation of four years.
Jack again leads Ennis, even after his death to an understanding that his love started that first summer. JMO.
You are always right on target, manhattangirl. The trust is part and parcel of the love and respect they had for each other. It is why Ennis got so angry at the last meeting when he felt Jack went off to Mexico.
Part of the tragedy was the lies and misunderstanding that happened, when words were left unsaid. Jack loved Ennis so much, but never came right out and told him. Ennis did not understand his feelings for Jack, but knew it was more than just buddies, this thing with no reins, but he never could articulate it, not even if he tried.
Sometimes I am a little outspoken because I am afraid of the words unsaid, but even then, I still find myself in situations where the words said were not sufficient, or misunderstood. It's why I am beginning to appreciate what Jack had, this ability to see in Ennis, what was needed, and gave it. Then again, he also got lucky. It was destiny. Not every Ennis will meet his Jack. Not every Jack will find an Ennis. More people have loved and lost, destroyed friendship over sex, than there are couples of Ennis and Jack.
I found a good question at bettermost yesterday. Did Ennis flirt? Were there enough clues for Jack to know, that his hand won't get blown off, or his postcard rejected? Was it luck, or good intuition of human behavior? After all, he is the best combine salesman they got. And great salesmen are great readers of human emotions.
I guess what I am saying is, they got lucky. It was destiny...in the stars...whatever you want to call it.
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Have had some gloomy experiences in the last few days, but one thing that came of them was relevant to this topic and so I thought I'd do one of my usual upside-down posts.
We've been looking at friendship, sex, and love, and how they developed in Ennis and Jack. Maybe we could add on to why they fell for each other, the additional question of why WE fell for THEM. Because we did. And it seems to be a lot of little stuff, we're up against in day-to-day life. So, here goes:
-they didn't have any agenda that would be a turn-off. Nothing political or religious. They could discuss those matters lightly (and according to the SS, they did), and yet didn't have any intent to sell or overwhelm the other, where they might disagree.
-they shared a general, simplistic but sincere, sense of right and wrong. Jack could empathize with the death of Ennis' parents, Ennis could note Jack's hurt his father never thought much of him.
-they were non-threatening to each other. Neither one was trying to one-up the other as to who was smarter or stronger, or a better person.
-they both respected the privacy of the other, not probing past what the other was willing to say.
-very important....they were credible to each other. No sense of falseness. They were who they were.
These are small matters that escape our radar screens. And yet, if you think about it, just those small areas (and others) are why we can't, ourselves, so easily find true friendship or love and have to settle for much less.
No apologies, then, for going for the simple rather than the intellectually complex. They were free of much of the toxicity we see each day, or discover too late, in a marriage or friendship. And so, the field was open for a solid friendship (for us with them, as well as for them with each other).
The gradual familiarity left the field open for love. Again, they did love each other, and we did love them. Sex. Hmmmm. Well, yeah, they went there, and, judging by the popularity of the photo threads, it could be supposed, many of us did, too.
So that's all. Maybe friendship, sex, and love are built into our very existence, but the field must be open for them to develop. It was open for them, and open for us, as well, towards them, based on these seemingly minor, but normal barricades, not being there. Annie had to take them down, for the story to work. Taking them down in our own lives, is, of course, not so easy. So, turning the question upside-down, why did they develop as they did, into why don't we develop what they had, so easily? The fields were open, the barricades down. Probably unrealistic in the real world, but a little help when looking over their loves, our loves, and of course, our own lives.
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I am sorry, Tony, :ghug: to hear of your gloomy recent days. I hope being here helps to lift the darkness, and help shed some light.
Your right-side on post is always amazing. Why do we fall for Ennis and/or Jack?
Have had some gloomy experiences in the last few days, but one thing that came of them was relevant to this topic and so I thought I'd do one of my usual upside-down posts.
We've been looking at friendship, sex, and love, and how they developed in Ennis and Jack. Maybe we could add on to why they fell for each other, the additional question of why WE fell for THEM. Because we did. And it seems to be a lot of little stuff, we're up against in day-to-day life. So, here goes:
-they didn't have any agenda that would be a turn-off. Nothing political or religious. They could discuss those matters lightly (and according to the SS, they did), and yet didn't have any intent to sell or overwhelm the other, where they might disagree.
This was brought up in the Seattle weekend, and a major decision made by Ethan and the administrators. It is also why this forum is focused on love, and I think, blessed with it.
-they shared a general, simplistic but sincere, sense of right and wrong. Jack could empathize with the death of Ennis' parents, Ennis could note Jack's hurt his father never thought much of him.
I agree totally with empathy between Jack and Ennis, and I agree with qualification on their sharing a "general, simplistic, but sincere sense of right and wrong". I think the emphasis is on the sharing, the sincere, but they disagree often on the general and simplistic. On the one hand, Jack objected to Acquierre asking him to go against the rule and sleeping with the sheep. On the other, he had no qualms shooting and eating one of them, much less the elk. Then there is Ennis, who would go along with the authority figure, and when Jack came along, follow in his footstep. It's not a matter of sharing in a simplistic sense of right and wrong, but rather, the sharing empathy that made them one, as in the dozy embrace.
-they were non-threatening to each other. Neither one was trying to one-up the other as to who was smarter or stronger, or a better person.
I agree 100% here. There was no competition, without a little good natured ribbing thrown in. "Tired of your dumbass missing" "Rodeo cowboys are a bunch of f#$@ups." and the scene that Acquirre spotted, and the wrestling matches that probably went on day and night. Jack left the cowboy stuff to Ennis, as in the tent don't look right and not feel hurt by being bested, while Ennis left the bravado to Jack, being amused by it, instead of feeling the need to be told the truth...lie to me (Shane Mack). Again, the two fitted each other like two-shirts.
-they both respected the privacy of the other, not probing past what the other was willing to say.
-very important....they were credible to each other. No sense of falseness. They were who they were.
I am not sure if this contributed to their friendship, sex, and love. I think, in a way, their not putting everything on the table, in the long run, doomed their twenty years. A lot of what-ifs, but the truth is, if they are truly in love, then there is no reason why they needed privacy, or keeping secrets. Jack did Ennis wrong with his Mexico trips and Randall, and he knew it. Otherwise, he wouldn't need to lie about it. Ennis did Jack wrong with his stubborn dumbass pride, and he knew it, at the end, in the closet.
True love meant, in my humble opinion, like Shaun and Zach, giving each other room, but putting it out there, so there is no misunderstanding, better to risk having loved enough to hurt, to be vulnerable and stabbed, than to miss the chance of one shot. And most of all, true love is like Zach, to admit being wrong, and return, asking for another chance, to change. And Shaun, giving it, without a doubt, without a moment hesitation. That's why I love Shelter.
These are small matters that escape our radar screens. And yet, if you think about it, just those small areas (and others) are why we can't, ourselves, so easily find true friendship or love and have to settle for much less.
No apologies, then, for going for the simple rather than the intellectually complex. They were free of much of the toxicity we see each day, or discover too late, in a marriage or friendship. And so, the field was open for a solid friendship (for us with them, as well as for them with each other).
The gradual familiarity left the field open for love. Again, they did love each other, and we did love them. Sex. Hmmmm. Well, yeah, they went there, and, judging by the popularity of the photo threads, it could be supposed, many of us did, too.
No apologies are ever needed, Tony. I love the way you think, so keep on posting exactly whatever you want. I agree 100% with what I highlighted above. It is why I am not a fan of love at first-sight. Perhaps I am a slow thinker, and so do not feel familiar until a lot of work in the field. It is also, why I admire Jack, his quick thinking on his feet, sizing up Ennis with a glance, and his patience, working on it until Ennis responded. I never thought about this, and was puzzled by the adoration others had for Jack, until, one day, this epiphany just happened, how does one know, when love is here? Jack knew. That's his gift.
So that's all. Maybe friendship, sex, and love are built into our very existence, but the field must be open for them to develop. It was open for them, and open for us, as well, towards them, based on these seemingly minor, but normal barricades, not being there. Annie had to take them down, for the story to work. Taking them down in our own lives, is, of course, not so easy. So, turning the question upside-down, why did they develop as they did, into why don't we develop what they had, so easily? The fields were open, the barricades down. Probably unrealistic in the real world, but a little help when looking over their loves, our loves, and of course, our own lives.
That's not just all, Friend Tony. It is everything. Without getting all religious and an holier than thou attitude, your field of love reminds me of the parable of the seeds sown into the field, some are stolen by birds, others are scorched and burned in the hot sun. These are the toxicity of modern daily life. Other seeds withered, while others sprouted quickly but never took root. These are the people who do not see, or saw but never understood deeply enough.
PBS is the field of love being watered with our tears.
Thanks, Tony, from one co-worker to another. :c)
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Thanks, Andrew. My gloomy stuff doesn't last long, luckily. I noted where you had a few reservations on what I had posted, and found them persuasive. That's the good part of back and forth, learning something or fine-tuning a thought.
Anyway, I guess every member of this kind of forum is, by definition, interested in relationships. That's why Ennis and Jack caught our eye. You do, yourself, Andrew, have some strong abilities to look, empathize, learn, and define for others in a quiet way, what you have seen. And this is the place to be doing that. It's our little island. Oh darn, I don't wanna go from gloomy to schmaltzy in one day, so will leave it there. Thanks again. Tony.
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Thanks, Andrew. My gloomy stuff doesn't last long, luckily. I noted where you had a few reservations on what I had posted, and found them persuasive. That's the good part of back and forth, learning something or fine-tuning a thought.
Anyway, I guess every member of this kind of forum is, by definition, interested in relationships. That's why Ennis and Jack caught our eye. You do, yourself, Andrew, have some strong abilities to look, empathize, learn, and define for others in a quiet way, what you have seen. And this is the place to be doing that. It's our little island. Oh darn, I don't wanna go from gloomy to schmaltzy in one day, so will leave it there. Thanks again. Tony.
;D I just learned something new - schmaltzy - excessively sentimental. Well, Tony, when it comes to Ennis and Jack, I confess, I am very schmaltzy.
As far as relationships go, I can do it over the internet. Seriously. I am past the point where I expect any physical relationships in my life. Like I said, if love finds me great, if not, I am okay with that, too. To have loved and lost, is enough.
I won't follow along on this track for the moment, lest I get morose and have us both in gloom. So have a fine Sunday evening, and I will go take a walk in the sunshine.
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I love how you said that. I totally agree, Thomas. ^f^
Thanks Tammy. The physical attraction remained, certainly. But I don't think it was that central 4 years after...
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Well said. They complimented each other, as well as completed one another.
I think their completing each other was a central part of their friendship -- I would even say that it was the foundation of their attraction...
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I don't if this makes any sense, but I've notice that in FNIT and the Reunion, there was one factor in both, that was Jack. He took Ennis's hand, he also sends the postcard that brings them back together. This trust, and Ennis trusted Jack, he had to or he wouldn't have kissed him so passionately. It was the trust in their friendship love, and in the sexual part of their relationship that never ends, even with the separation of four years.
Jack again leads Ennis, even after his death to an understanding that his love started that first summer. JMO.
This trust was certainly important, not only in their friendship, but also in their love for each other. It was this trust that made FNIT and SNIT possible. You certainly see it in SNIT, when Ennis gives himself to Jack.
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I found a good question at bettermost yesterday. Did Ennis flirt? Were there enough clues for Jack to know, that his hand won't get blown off, or his postcard rejected? Was it luck, or good intuition of human behavior? After all, he is the best combine salesman they got. And great salesmen are great readers of human emotions.
I guess what I am saying is, they got lucky. It was destiny...in the stars...whatever you want to call it.
I guess one could say that Ennis flirted -- in his own unique way of doing things. He was certainly NOT flippant about it. It rested on a deeper need.
They were lucky. But I think they also deserve much credit for building the friendship, in spite of their fears about how their intentions might be perceived...
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I guess one could say that Ennis flirted -- in his own unique way of doing things. He was certainly NOT flippant about it. It rested on a deeper need.
They were lucky. But I think they also deserve much credit for building the friendship, in spite of their fears about how their intentions might be perceived...
Exactly! tpe, Ennis was flirting, in the sense that he opened up to Jack in ways that he would never do to anyone else... 'more words than in a year'
And the beauty of it was that Jack understood...the subtle signals from Ennis, and took the next step, in the same subtle ways. They stepped slowly from friendship to sex to love, and each step was built on the small moments of friendship, love that came from their years of loneliness in the world, and their togetherness in the isolation on Brokeback Mountain. <^(
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[...]
-they didn't have any agenda that would be a turn-off. Nothing political or religious. They could discuss those matters lightly (and according to the SS, they did), and yet didn't have any intent to sell or overwhelm the other, where they might disagree.
[...]
-they were non-threatening to each other. Neither one was trying to one-up the other as to who was smarter or stronger, or a better person.
[...]
-very important....they were credible to each other. No sense of falseness. They were who they were.
These are small matters that escape our radar screens. And yet, if you think about it, just those small areas (and others) are why we can't, ourselves, so easily find true friendship or love and have to settle for much less.
No apologies, then, for going for the simple rather than the intellectually complex. They were free of much of the toxicity we see each day, or discover too late, in a marriage or friendship. And so, the field was open for a solid friendship (for us with them, as well as for them with each other).
The gradual familiarity left the field open for love. Again, they did love each other, and we did love them. [...]
Your words, Tony, as usual, took me some time to digest fully.
It just occurred to me, another reason why Ennis and Jack's friendship progressed so well, from one stage to the next, as you said, with sincerity and no agenda. I recall now what Annie Proulx said about these two, being both poor and from similar background. They friendship is so pure, that there can be no agenda. None of the toxic elements that you hinted at.
There is no discrepancy in their social and financial standing. Even Jack's truck was a beaten down old clunker that Ennis helped fix. There were no suspicions of gold digging or social climbing, as in Brideshead. And because their attractiveness were equal in the movie or the short story, their love or attraction for each other was also relatively even. As someone said in the What is Love post, in every relationship, there is always someone who loves more than the other. In this case, Jack shows his love more, but Ennis loves Jack just as deeply. And they both felt this, even unexpressed explicitly.
The special love between Ennis and Jack is not just that they found each other, but that they were so perfectly matched - temperamentally, emotionally, financially, socially, skills-wise, and in almost every aspect of existence. The only tragic mismatch was their gender in a homophobic society.
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Exactly! tpe, Ennis was flirting, in the sense that he opened up to Jack in ways that he would never do to anyone else... 'more words than in a year'
And the beauty of it was that Jack understood...the subtle signals from Ennis, and took the next step, in the same subtle ways. They stepped slowly from friendship to sex to love, and each step was built on the small moments of friendship, love that came from their years of loneliness in the world, and their togetherness in the isolation on Brokeback Mountain. <^(
I would even go so far in saying that Ennis was "flirting" in spite of himself. I think you are right about never doing this with anyone else. It's part of the uniqueness of their friendship that made this possible, and I daresay that Ennis never really had a friend -- not even Alma.
So, I would posit that Jack was both Ennis's first love AND friend.
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The special love between Ennis and Jack is not just that they found each other, but that they were so perfectly matched - temperamentally, emotionally, financially, socially, skills-wise, and in almost every aspect of existence. The only tragic mismatch was their gender in a homophobic society.
We almost always agree, Andrew, but when we don't, it usually brings out something more to work with. I do agree the two were very well matched, but don't see the homophobic society as the problem. In fact, I've started seeing the whole love story in a new way, in the context of the book "Sophie's Choice".
There, two people fall in love but the woman cannot accept fully the amazing gift given to her by life because of a terrible choice she had had to make during the holocaust (which of her 2 children had to die - a choice devised sadistically by the prison guard). So when life erupted into a wonderful love, she could not fully commit- she'd been permanently crippled emotionally and did not believe....in happiness.
And so I do see Ennis as crippled, and not just by the Earl/Rich tragedy, but probably by no one ever really having loved him enough as a child, and then being poor and discardable. He was resigned, maybe not stoically as we've always seemed to think, but by long term depression, to never being able to live a happy life if one ever came along. He wasn't totally broken, as we see scenes of joy here and there, but, like Sophie, he did not believe life could go well for him.
So here comes Jack, as full of life and romantic love as Sophie's lover. And Ennis, like her, was caught up in that love, but when it came time to repudiate the past and make a real life, neither could do it. No, I don't think it was the homophobic society. It looks to me like a broken man, wishing he could live again, trying to live again, but crippled by his past. Sophie's choice: a full commitment wouldn't work. Life was too evil to risk living again.
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We almost always agree, Andrew, but when we don't, it usually brings out something more to work with. I do agree the two were very well matched, but don't see the homophobic society as the problem. In fact, I've started seeing the whole love story in a new way, in the context of the book "Sophie's Choice".
There, two people fall in love but the woman cannot accept fully the amazing gift given to her by life because of a terrible choice she had had to make during the holocaust (which of her 2 children had to die - a choice devised sadistically by the prison guard). So when life erupted into a wonderful love, she could not fully commit- she'd been permanently crippled emotionally and did not believe....in happiness.
And so I do see Ennis as crippled, and not just by the Earl/Rich tragedy, but probably by no one ever really having loved him enough as a child, and then being poor and discardable. He was resigned, maybe not stoically as we've always seemed to think, but by long term depression, to never being able to live a happy life if one ever came along. He wasn't totally broken, as we see scenes of joy here and there, but, like Sophie, he did not believe life could go well for him.
So here comes Jack, as full of life and romantic love as Sophie's lover. And Ennis, like her, was caught up in that love, but when it came time to repudiate the past and make a real life, neither could do it. No, I don't think it was the homophobic society. It looks to me like a broken man, wishing he could live again, trying to live again, but crippled by his past. Sophie's choice: a full commitment wouldn't work. Life was too evil to risk living again.
Oh, man, Tony, you sure don't mince words, and I thank you for the Sophie's Choice reference. I recall the movie, but I have not seen it yet. All I can say, through tears, is that I think you expressed exactly the Ennis that makes Heath's performance so amazing. How does one portray a character as you described? Heath did it in all the little things, that hit us, me, emotionally deep down, without explicitly explaining it, as you did so well. Thank you.
The river scene after their reunion, with Ennis smiling up to heaven giving thanks, then Jack's "Life can be like this, always', and Ennis' excuse of Earl and Rich, is exactly what your last sentence described. And also, earlier in the motel scene, when Ennis said, "I am stuck with what I've got" also reflects the broken man crippled by the past that you speak of.
And as tpe said, Jack was probably Ennis' first and only friend, true friend of the heart, and from that deep friendship, their love took shape, and wings. The sex was just a natural result of two guys in love.
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We almost always agree, Andrew, but when we don't, it usually brings out something more to work with. I do agree the two were very well matched, but don't see the homophobic society as the problem. In fact, I've started seeing the whole love story in a new way, in the context of the book "Sophie's Choice".
There, two people fall in love but the woman cannot accept fully the amazing gift given to her by life because of a terrible choice she had had to make during the holocaust (which of her 2 children had to die - a choice devised sadistically by the prison guard). So when life erupted into a wonderful love, she could not fully commit- she'd been permanently crippled emotionally and did not believe....in happiness.
And so I do see Ennis as crippled, and not just by the Earl/Rich tragedy, but probably by no one ever really having loved him enough as a child, and then being poor and discardable. He was resigned, maybe not stoically as we've always seemed to think, but by long term depression, to never being able to live a happy life if one ever came along. He wasn't totally broken, as we see scenes of joy here and there, but, like Sophie, he did not believe life could go well for him.
So here comes Jack, as full of life and romantic love as Sophie's lover. And Ennis, like her, was caught up in that love, but when it came time to repudiate the past and make a real life, neither could do it. No, I don't think it was the homophobic society. It looks to me like a broken man, wishing he could live again, trying to live again, but crippled by his past. Sophie's choice: a full commitment wouldn't work. Life was too evil to risk living again.
Very provocative insight here, Tony I had never seen Ennis's plight in terms of "Sophie's Choice". The question of self-happiness in love (or a lack/disbelief thereof) for Ennis is a very elusive thing -- I go back and forth as far as seeing it as a cause or an effect.
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Very interesting read, guys... :t)
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Very provocative insight here, Tony I had never seen Ennis's plight in terms of "Sophie's Choice". The question of self-happiness in love (or a lack/disbelief thereof) for Ennis is a very elusive thing -- I go back and forth as far as seeing it as a cause or an effect.
Ennis had many emotional scars and I do think for the most part he was sad. Such a complex character!
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[...] Life was too evil to risk living again.
Tony, your whole post, as tpe pointed out, is provocative, and your last sentence stuck with me, forcing me to think deeply on its application to Ennis, and me.
As I have already expressed its application to Ennis, permit me to be slightly off topic and relate its application to me, and I will endeavor to bring the topic back.
That sentence was the epitome of how I felt, when Heath passed away so suddenly. It brought back all the feelings when my friend died suddenly 28 years ago, at the age of 21. Life was too evil to risk living, trusting, loving, hoping, building a future, with expectations and dreams. And reading the synopsis for Sophie's Choice, I realized also, she had the added burden of tremendous guilt. I don't pretend to understand it, because no parent should be made to choose as she did, and no one could possibly understand the anguish except a parent faced with that choice. Ennis, may or may not felt guilty over Earl's death. We don't know if he was friendly with the old men, if his father's or the murderer's motivation were to end their friendship. In any case, there is always some elements of "survivor's guilt" and in my case, I had it in abundance for a long time. To bring the discussion back to topic, I can see what you mean, that Ennis was the broken man who expected nothing from life, because he had nothing.
Mourning Heath also taught me something else. Mourning Heath, gave me the opportunity to learn from his life's lessons, from his example, that Ennis learned from Jack's Ma in Lightning Flat, that no matter how cruel and cold the world may be, the stud duck may be, always make the most of what I've got, show the warmth of my smile, and perhaps, if I am lucky, there'd be a Jack or Ennis. That's what Heath did all his life, never letting life's downturns get him down.
And so that's where I stand today, loving the man who gave me so much, and doing what I think is the only reasonable response, in a cold cruel world, where, as you said, in your last sentence, life was too evil to risk living again. There is no other choice, but to Dance. Sorry that I am mixing my metaphors and allegories or whatever the literary device this is.
Garth Brooks, the Dance:
Looking back on the memory of
The dance we shared 'neath the stars above
For a moment all the world was right
How could I have known that you'd ever say goodbye
And now I'm glad I didn't know
The way it all would end the way it all would go
Our lives are better left to chance I could have missed the pain
But I'd have had to miss the dance
Holding you I held everything
For a moment wasn't I a king
But if I'd only known how the king would fall
Hey who's to say you know I might have changed it all
And now I'm glad I didn't know
The way it all would end the way it all would go
Our lives are better left to chance I could have missed the pain
But I'd have had to miss the dance
Yes my life is better left to chance
I could have missed the pain but I'd have had to miss the dance
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If you'd like to hear the song, in a Heath tribute video, just go to youtube, and search on the keywords:
"Heath tribute Garth Brooks the Dance"
It contains some paparazzi photos, so I won't add the direct link.
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Ennis had many emotional scars and I do think for the most part he was sad. Such a complex character!
You have said it all here, rimasworld. If there is anything to describe Ennis's resistance to love and friendship, it is the word "sad".
O sad are they who know not love
But far from passions tears and smiles
Drift down a moonless sea
Beyond the silvery coasts of fairy Isles.
And sadder they whose longing lips
Kiss empty air and never touch
The dear warm mouth of those they love
Waiting, wasting, suffering much...
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It would be very difficult to do justice to the previous 2 posts, but I would like to say a little. Andrew, I didn't think you were off topic, I thought you were right there, on the troubles of Ennis, even though you had to reach into your past. Your whole approach is coherent and progressive, in the face of tragedy, but, I have to say, sometimes people don't have the resilience shown in that song, "The Dance". We should look for that, but the reality is, sometimes it doesn't work out that way.
Am not sure the song applies to Ennis, but am not saying it doesn't. Mostly, he was lucky in that he found the goodness of Jack's mother and of his own daughter. After reading your post, I didn't feel Ennis would have been ready for that way of thinking, of healing, or at least not for a long while.
But it did strike me how much the worse it would have been had there been no daughter, no Ma Twist, and no shirts. He was left something. Maybe not the complete happy ending people want, but.....something.
Then Thomas' post pointed out again, the resistance Ennis had to accepting friendship and love. My mind is a little foggy this morning, but I wonder if the answer there is not constant brutality during his childhood, but maybe that...oh, how to say this....he was just a sensitive child...somehow alone, aware of some heavy coldness in his relatives, and that was all it took. We tend to think children are completely a product of their family and environment, but I think a "good" child can be born into a crummy family, and so saying he was sensitive doesn't cover the territory. Somehow, he was better than them, that young, and that's where the battering came from, and that's why he was broken. Will try for more later, and looking for the other side of the story, where life did find something for him, somehow.
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If there is anything to describe Ennis's resistance to love and friendship, it is the word "sad".
The moderators have given a lot of latitude, so far, so, am going into the territory of Jack and Ennis' childhood. The SS doesn't support much trolling around there, but the movie seems to raise some questions about how they got the way they were.
In a previous post, I wondered if Ennis wasn't born into the wrong family. You could go several ways there, including the metaphysical, that a baby is born with an independent identity. Or you could go to genetics. In dogs, for example, there are genetic variations in the temperament of individual puppies, and this has been used by breeders all along to develop a stronger strain, Golden Labs for gentleness, pit bulls for the reverse. But either way you go, the metaphysical or genetic variations, we shouldn't suppose a baby is like his or her parents and then completely molded by the environment.
In the movie, we see that close-up of Ennis as a child, seeing Earl dead, and he is roughly normal for his age, if quiet and hurt by what he sees, as well as by the implications of his father's reptilian ways. I'd avoid the word "sensitive" and just say, he was a better human being than his father.
And, somehow, other things weren't right either. A cantankerous bully of a brother, and rural isolation leaving few playmates. Whatever was going on, that child COULD love, but saw there wasn't much safety there and hunkered down for the long run.
With Jack, we do see that wonderful mother, that let his spirit keep believing, and a father more withdrawn than agrressive. It's so little to work with, but I do feel Ennis was born into the wrong family. Jack was a product of the tensions of his hermit crab father and loving mother. He accepted them both.
It seems to me then, that tpe is right in saying Ennis' failures were sad, but I'd go further and say Ennis himself was mostly sad, even by the age of 19, and yet still holding on. Jack was happy, nearly all the time, and looking for happiness. But both had gone too far, Ennis just not believing it was safe to be happy over the long run-all he thought was possible was stealing a little joy before people found out and took it back. And Jack went too far the other way - a dreamer.
My apologies for a long post that really only touches on small matters, but, anything we can do to try to flesh out who they were is what we do here.
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[...]....he was just a sensitive child...somehow alone, aware of some heavy coldness in [...]
Tony, as usual, your words touch a part of me, and I was aware of Ennis' sensitivity, and his fortress as a reaction to the heavy coldness of the outside world. You also mentioned his long term depression, and tpe described his self-imposed exile as sad.
I agree with all your judgment here, and will add that, you are indeed correct, that Ennis was fortunate, to have his daughter, Jack's Ma, indeed, Jack. Instead of wishing for what we cannot have, Ennis could have counted his blessing, and be happy, like this, always. In a way, I am still convinced, alone in this I suppose, that Ennis was ready to accept fate as it was, when he put up those numbers in the mailbox. Alone or not, happy or not, Ennis was still the stoic cowboy what would put up with 'most anything life throws at him. And after Jack, life was starting to treat him better than most.
Just my opinion.
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Thnaks Tony. And thanks also lance for your response.
In real life, we see many instances where people are seemingly born into the "wrong" family. They are marked by a sensitivity and depth that sometimes seemily contradicts their immediate surroundings. And yest, we should understand that sensitivity and depth may arise as a reaction to those same unpromising circumstances.
I agree with Tony when he says that Ennis himself is sad. But I should also note that Jack didn't really have a happy childhood either, and yet he tried to touch happiness with both hands.
The difference, of course is that whereas Jack tried to grasp happiness through his found friendship and love of Ennis, in the case of Ennis, it was a mixed bag: Ennis's friendship and love of Jack brought him both happiness and misery. Perhaps the key to this misery is in one word: guilt.
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The difference, of course is that whereas Jack tried to grasp happiness through his found friendship and love of Ennis, in the case of Ennis, it was a mixed bag: Ennis's friendship and love of Jack brought him both happiness and misery. Perhaps the key to this misery is in one word: guilt.
I think you're right here Thomas. ^f^
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Perhaps the key to this misery is in one word: guilt.
There are probably many kinds of guilt, but here, would like to look at just two: guilt over breaking your own rules vs. guilt over breaking those of others.
There didn't seem to be much guilt on Ennis' part over having sex with Jack, at least, based on the film. None of that post-coital ....ugh...did I really do that? And then getting away from the sexual partner quickly. Just the opposite. Ennis lingered, relaxed, and loved.
But the other guilt-what would his father think? That one was deadly. Heath Ledger said this was also a story of a man struggling with the judgments of a father, and (I think) his father's father. THAT shows up in the SS and the film. But how can that second kind of guilt be so powerful? Maybe because Ennis could not bring himself to repudiate his father nor hate him. Frankly, that's the worst case scenario for children - an abusive or judgmental parent that the child still loves, which leads to a lifetime of misery.
Jack, on the other hand, probably didn't find freedom by hating his father. Instead, he just de-clawed him. The old man was bitter and judgmental, and had been aggressive once, but had lost his authority and power when he couldn't keep up the little ranch/farm. Jack probably just flipped him off as no further threat and worked around him for the sake of his mother. No guilt there, then, from a discredited authority.
And maybe a lot comes down to that: Ennis let the world (including the judgment of relatives) run his life. Jack didn't.
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Thnaks Tony. And thanks also lance for your response.
In real life, we see many instances where people are seemingly born into the "wrong" family. They are marked by a sensitivity and depth that sometimes seemily contradicts their immediate surroundings. And yest, we should understand that sensitivity and depth may arise as a reaction to those same unpromising circumstances.
I agree with Tony when he says that Ennis himself is sad. But I should also note that Jack didn't really have a happy childhood either, and yet he tried to touch happiness with both hands.
The difference, of course is that whereas Jack tried to grasp happiness through his found friendship and love of Ennis, in the case of Ennis, it was a mixed bag: Ennis's friendship and love of Jack brought him both happiness and misery. Perhaps the key to this misery is in one word: guilt.
I don't agree about being born into the "wrong" family. There is no "right" or "wrong". We don't choose our family. It is a gift. How we deal with the gift is up to us.
I agree that Ennis is a sensitive soul, and perhaps, at the age of nine, that is to be expected. It is why child abuse are horrible, of any kind, especially of the mental and ethical kind, where children are brainwashed with hateful ideas. Ennis suffered at the hand of the father, and his life was forever changed. It was redeem only through Jack's devoted and unfailing love. I can't see where Ennis has guilt in their relationship.
At the end, in the closet, I can see shock and regret. But, guilt? I am not convinced of that.
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There are probably many kinds of guilt, but here, would like to look at just two: guilt over breaking your own rules vs. guilt over breaking those of others.
There didn't seem to be much guilt on Ennis' part over having sex with Jack, at least, based on the film. None of that post-coital ....ugh...did I really do that? And then getting away from the sexual partner quickly. Just the opposite. Ennis lingered, relaxed, and loved.
But the other guilt-what would his father think? That one was deadly. Heath Ledger said this was also a story of a man struggling with the judgments of a father, and (I think) his father's father. THAT shows up in the SS and the film. But how can that second kind of guilt be so powerful? Maybe because Ennis could not bring himself to repudiate his father nor hate him. Frankly, that's the worst case scenario for children - an abusive or judgmental parent that the child still loves, which leads to a lifetime of misery.
Jack, on the other hand, probably didn't find freedom by hating his father. Instead, he just de-clawed him. The old man was bitter and judgmental, and had been aggressive once, but had lost his authority and power when he couldn't keep up the little ranch/farm. Jack probably just flipped him off as no further threat and worked around him for the sake of his mother. No guilt there, then, from a discredited authority.
And maybe a lot comes down to that: Ennis let the world (including the judgment of relatives) run his life. Jack didn't.
I agree with you 100% here, Tony. Ennis was not so much guilty over his own life, but over how others viewed him.
And I love your phrase ... Jack de-clawed the stud duck bully, by simply ignoring him from the moment he could move out, away from the desolate place. In a away, Jack did it again in the Thanksgiving scene, when he stood up to old man Newsome.
Stand up to bullies, Ennis, especially the ones in your heart. Don't let their hidden voices run your life.
In the end, in the closet, Ennis recognized Jack's voice of love calling out over twenty years, and responded.
Forever putting the bullies behind him.
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Stand up to bullies, Ennis, especially the ones in your heart. Don't let their hidden voices run your life.
In the end, in the closet, Ennis recognized Jack's voice of love calling out over twenty years, and responded.
Forever putting the bullies behind him.
This was beautiful. This post is an example of how we can still be going into this movie, this love story, over 2 years later, and finding more there both for those 2 friends, and for our own lives. Well done, Andrew. And the same for all the others still answering, in some way, the call from both of those two lovers, to us.
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Ennis had a great excuse and all the ingredients to become a bully, just as Jack had to become a victim. Neither let themselves falls prey to either. Ennis tries to bully Jack but Jack wasn't going for it, not at the end of that first summer, after being sock in the eye Jack still reached out to Ennis, maybe knowing where Ennis's anger came from, and it wasn't him.
It was in the outside world, away from each other, you see how each man got a sense of themselves, how their conduct effects the people around him. Thanksgiving is a great example of that. Ennis after grabbing Alma's arm and threatens to kick the crap out of old Monroe, big time bully move, but then would allow himself to be beaten by a stranger, as if he knew what he did was wrong, and had to be punish for it. Jack defers to LD up until the point he couldn't take it any more and puts the old guy in his place, and even than it seemed hard for him to do, a "bully smack down". Each man some how got a sense of their own vulnerabilities.
Does this make any kind of sense?
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Each man some how got a sense of their own vulnerabilities.
If I read your post correctly, Manhattangirl, it makes a great deal of sense. Ennis was primed for being a bully, like his father. In the SS, his father taught him to get his brother off his back by hitting back hard. But he defied the script written for him. He even challenged bullies (the 4th of July scenes), and he never did hit Alma. The proof he had none of that in him was when, after quarreling with Alma over her working over-time, he kicked a bucket or something behind the 2 little girls, enraged. And they weren't even remotely afraid. They knew their Daddy. It was like: "oh, Daddy....you're silly!"
Same for Jack. It could be said his father had primed him for being a victim, and he, too, defied the script. He went the other way and always looked for happiness.
You're so right, then, MG. They both knew what they had been aimed at being, what you call "their own vulnerabilities", and they weren't going for it. I guess that's part of the complexity of life, though, that you can dodge one bullet, and then get hit by another, not understood or foreseen.
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If I read your post correctly, Manhattangirl, it makes a great deal of sense. Ennis was primed for being a bully, like his father. In the SS, his father taught him to get his brother off his back by hitting back hard. But he defied the script written for him. He even challenged bullies (the 4th of July scenes), and he never did hit Alma. The proof he had none of that in him was when, after quarreling with Alma over her working over-time, he kicked a bucket or something behind the 2 little girls, enraged. And they weren't even remotely afraid. They knew their Daddy. It was like: "oh, Daddy....you're silly!"
Same for Jack. It could be said his father had primed him for being a victim, and he, too, defied the script. He went the other way and always looked for happiness.
You're so right, then, MG. They both knew what they had been aimed at being, what you call "their own vulnerabilities", and they weren't going for it. I guess that's part of the complexity of life, though, that you can dodge one bullet, and then get hit by another, not understood or foreseen.
Thanks, Tony. Your words are more and more profound as this thread builds up towards...
I love your phrases, they defied their scripts...dodging their own vulnerabilities...then being hit, by the love between them...unforeseen, and not understood.
I always thought the scene with the two girls on the swing set...after Ennis kicked the bucket (hmmm...is that symbolic of the death of the marriage?)...was a little perplexing, as you said, they did not react with fear as would be expected. Your conclusion makes perfect sense, and also explains the love and attachment Alma Jr has for her Daddy. She understood him best of all.
Ennis was the cowboy gentle and strong, able to stand up to bullies, and to caress with sensitivity. <^( Jack was the "victim" who maintained hope and dreams, despite all the setbacks and rejections, and always ready and receptive to Ennis. The two were perfect and complete for each other.
I venture to go one step further and say, that their summer of '63 on Brokeback Mountain, gave them the strength and inner love to change their scripts. Without Jack, Ennis might eventually build up so much fear and anger, that he would become the typical bully, following the script his daddy gave him. Without Ennis, Jack might eventually succumb to the despair and pain that he finally felt so deeply at the final meeting, and became the perpetual victim hanging out in bars looking at young cowboys with hunger, as the prototype for Annie Proulx's short story.
Brokeback Mountain got them good, gave them the love, the force of nature so strong, that they changed their life's scripts - they changed their stars.
And through their love, others have changed their stars.
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as this thread builds up towards...
I venture to go one step further and say, that their summer of '63 on Brokeback Mountain, gave them the strength and inner love to change their scripts. Without Jack, Ennis might eventually build up so much fear and anger, that he would become the typical bully, following the script his daddy gave him. Without Ennis, Jack might eventually succumb to the despair and pain that he finally felt so deeply at the final meeting, and became the perpetual victim hanging out in bars looking at young cowboys with hunger, as the prototype for Annie Proulx's short story.
Brokeback Mountain got them good, gave them the love, the force of nature so strong, that they changed their life's scripts - they changed their stars.
And through their love, others have changed their stars.
Well, for me, this thread builds up to where I started from when I joined the forum, but with ever new understanding of what I thought I had seen. Yeah, Andrew, where were they headed to, without that meteoric collision on the mountain? I think you're right - Jack would have spiralled downward exactly as you described him, someone who never knew love and ended up quietly looking over the other guys in the tavern. Bullseye.
Ennis- well, am not sure he would have become a bully. It's occurred to me that he had a strong love-force, repressed, but a life-force that had been smashed somehow. And the two can be different. His life-force was broken (and remained near to broken, even with Jack). He wouldn't try for a better job. He wouldn't venture out past the little world he knew. He had few to no friends. His life-force was broken.
But the ability to love wasn't. He had some level of love for Alma, and a vague, detached, but powerful love for his daughters. Jack brought that out to the fore, and there was the collision- a love force that was so very strong, a life force that was crippled. He couldn't risk much with Jack.
So, am back where I started. Had they never met, as you pointed out, they were on track for much, much worse than did occur. Their love, then was.....redemptive (my first thread in this forum). But that redemption didn't give them a happy ending in this old world. No - they got 20 years of love, and proof of being loved, and many days of joy STOLEN from a hostile environment. Which was far better than where they were, as you pointed out, headed.
I know Jack died knowing he was loved. He saw Ennis crack up, the last time they met up. And we know Ennis found the proof he had always been loved, tucked away in Jack's childhood room. Am back where I started. The love redeemed them. Not into the materialistic success story we all favor. That love redeemed them from a living death -which was where they were headed.
It's no wonder BBM pisses off a lot of people. Those would be the people who never found that love from someone else and have to live their life faking it.
The rest of us, even if we never found that love those two had, at least know, it is possible, and we have shared in it, each in our own way.
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Well, for me, this thread builds up to where I started from when I joined the forum, but with ever new understanding of what I thought I had seen. Yeah, Andrew, where were they headed to, without that meteoric collision on the mountain? I think you're right - Jack would have spiralled downward exactly as you described him, someone who never knew love and ended up quietly looking over the other guys in the tavern. Bullseye.
Ennis- well, am not sure he would have become a bully. It's occurred to me that he had a strong love-force, repressed, but a life-force that had been smashed somehow. And the two can be different. His life-force was broken (and remained near to broken, even with Jack). He wouldn't try for a better job. He wouldn't venture out past the little world he knew. He had few to no friends. His life-force was broken.
But the ability to love wasn't. He had some level of love for Alma, and a vague, detached, but powerful love for his daughters. Jack brought that out to the fore, and there was the collision- a love force that was so very strong, a life force that was crippled. He couldn't risk much with Jack.
So, am back where I started. Had they never met, as you pointed out, they were on track for much, much worse than did occur. Their love, then was.....redemptive (my first thread in this forum). But that redemption didn't give them a happy ending in this old world. No - they got 20 years of love, and proof of being loved, and many days of joy STOLEN from a hostile environment. Which was far better than where they were, as you pointed out, headed.
I know Jack died knowing he was loved. He saw Ennis crack up, the last time they met up. And we know Ennis found the proof he had always been loved, tucked away in Jack's childhood room. Am back where I started. The love redeemed them. Not into the materialistic success story we all favor. That love redeemed them from a living death -which was where they were headed.
It's no wonder BBM pisses off a lot of people. Those would be the people who never found that love from someone else and have to live their life faking it.
The rest of us, even if we never found that love those two had, at least know, it is possible, and we have shared in it, each in our own way.
Wow, Tony. I love your description of Ennis. I think you are closer to the mark than my simplistic shot in the dark, calling Ennis without loving Jack, the eventual bully angry at the world and afraid of love. I agree with you there, that Ennis has a strong love force within, even Cassie saw that. So you are probably right, without Jack, Ennis might be one of those quiet loving fathers who are devoted to their wives and children but never experience passion and love as deep as the love between Ennis and Jack. They will do their duty, but that would be all, as you said, faking the love that they never feel deeply.
Thanks, buddy. This last few pages really helped me focus my own journey here. As you said, their timeless love redeemed their vulnerabilities, and ours.
My only disagreement with you in this post, is your BOLDED word, describing their STOLEN days of joy, from a hostile world. I am sure you meant something different from what I read. Here is my own perception of their meeting over those 20 years. Those were their demonstration of their love for each other, verbalized or not. Each time Jack drove 12 hours each way, and each time Ennis quit his job to spend time with Jack, they were doing what guys do to show their love, not with words but deeds. Are those days STOLEN? OR are those days built on sacrifices from each of their own lives? Ennis sacrificed his relationship with his wife and children; Jack sacrificed less, perhaps, but more, in a way, considering the cow and calf operation.
If anything was stolen, it was their life together, the good life, the happy life, together, always. It was stolen by, as you said, the hostile environment. Instead, what they had was a compromise scraped together from what little choices they had, in order to have their high-altitude f#$#%s two three times a year in the middle of nowhere, once in a while. They didn't steal those days of joy and happiness. They paid for them with sacrifices no one should have had to pay in the first place.
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Tony and Lance...Thank you.
Theres no reigns on this one..
Welcome to the valley of peace and friendship, Ranchand1. I hope you will throw in a few poetic logs into the fire. I love the way you have with words, the words from the movie.
Feel free, to pull up a log, and stick your boots next to the fire. There is enough love here to warm everyone who wants it.
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They didn't steal those days of joy and happiness. They paid for them with sacrifices no one should have had to pay in the first place.
Well, Andrew, I haven't learned much in my life, but I have learned that opposite statements can both be true. I absolutely agree with you that Jack and Ennis paid, and a very high price, for what should have been automatically theirs. But that's in the world as it should be.
The world as it is, can be unusually hostile to our rights, and that can be the forces of nature (catastrophes, illnesses and so on) or the forces of ignorance and cruelty. In that context then, the use of the word "stolen" joy from life has been around for a very, very long time. And implies no wrongfulness on the part of those doing that. The reference, then, is to an unnatural, miserly, hostile world where happiness is rightfully snatched, against the odds, or stolen. Opposites can be true, depending on the context.
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Well, Andrew, I haven't learned much in my life, but I have learned that opposite statements can both be true. I absolutely agree with you that Jack and Ennis paid, and a very high price, for what should have been automatically theirs. But that's in the world as it should be.
The world as it is, can be unusually hostile to our rights, and that can be the forces of nature (catastrophes, illnesses and so on) or the forces of ignorance and cruelty. In that context then, the use of the word "stolen" joy from life has been around for a very, very long time. And implies no wrongfulness on the part of those doing that. The reference, then, is to an unnatural, miserly, hostile world where happiness is rightfully snatched, against the odds, or stolen. Opposites can be true, depending on the context.
Thanks for your patient explanation, Tony. Like I said in my preamble, I probably did not understand what you meant. In this context, I agree that they managed to steal days of joy from a hostile life, snatching memories of happiness from the jaws of a cold cruel world.
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There are probably many kinds of guilt, but here, would like to look at just two: guilt over breaking your own rules vs. guilt over breaking those of others.
There didn't seem to be much guilt on Ennis' part over having sex with Jack, at least, based on the film. None of that post-coital ....ugh...did I really do that? And then getting away from the sexual partner quickly. Just the opposite. Ennis lingered, relaxed, and loved.
But the other guilt-what would his father think? That one was deadly. Heath Ledger said this was also a story of a man struggling with the judgments of a father, and (I think) his father's father. THAT shows up in the SS and the film. But how can that second kind of guilt be so powerful? Maybe because Ennis could not bring himself to repudiate his father nor hate him. Frankly, that's the worst case scenario for children - an abusive or judgmental parent that the child still loves, which leads to a lifetime of misery.
Jack, on the other hand, probably didn't find freedom by hating his father. Instead, he just de-clawed him. The old man was bitter and judgmental, and had been aggressive once, but had lost his authority and power when he couldn't keep up the little ranch/farm. Jack probably just flipped him off as no further threat and worked around him for the sake of his mother. No guilt there, then, from a discredited authority.
And maybe a lot comes down to that: Ennis let the world (including the judgment of relatives) run his life. Jack didn't.
Thanks Tammy and Tony.
Would you find it strange that I also think Ennis had guilty feelings when he had sex with Jack? This is not to say that he didn't enjoy it. But I would say that his actions left him more and more conflicted with each passing year. he couldn't deny it, but I also think he couldn't face up to it.
And BTW, I think Ennis also felt conflicted about his father: he certainly couldn't repudiate his memory entirely, even when his legacy haunted him in his search for friendship. love, and happiness.
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I don't agree about being born into the "wrong" family. There is no "right" or "wrong". We don't choose our family. It is a gift. How we deal with the gift is up to us.
I agree that Ennis is a sensitive soul, and perhaps, at the age of nine, that is to be expected. It is why child abuse are horrible, of any kind, especially of the mental and ethical kind, where children are brainwashed with hateful ideas. Ennis suffered at the hand of the father, and his life was forever changed. It was redeem only through Jack's devoted and unfailing love. I can't see where Ennis has guilt in their relationship.
At the end, in the closet, I can see shock and regret. But, guilt? I am not convinced of that.
"Right" or "wrong", there is no denying the fact that some people develop sensibilities that go against everything that their families have stood for. For example, a sensitive young man who is brought up in a militaristic household (many examples of this, to be sure). Or star-crossed lovers in the fashion of Romeo and Juliet -- how many times do we see innocent young members of families destroyed by the feauds and hatreds of their elders? There are many ways, alas, when a family becomes more an impediment to the friendships, loves, and happiness of its members.
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Ennis had a great excuse and all the ingredients to become a bully, just as Jack had to become a victim. Neither let themselves falls prey to either. Ennis tries to bully Jack but Jack wasn't going for it, not at the end of that first summer, after being sock in the eye Jack still reached out to Ennis, maybe knowing where Ennis's anger came from, and it wasn't him.
It was in the outside world, away from each other, you see how each man got a sense of themselves, how their conduct effects the people around him. Thanksgiving is a great example of that. Ennis after grabbing Alma's arm and threatens to kick the crap out of old Monroe, big time bully move, but then would allow himself to be beaten by a stranger, as if he knew what he did was wrong, and had to be punish for it. Jack defers to LD up until the point he couldn't take it any more and puts the old guy in his place, and even than it seemed hard for him to do, a "bully smack down". Each man some how got a sense of their own vulnerabilities.
Does this make any kind of sense?
Yes.
OT: funny that we share the same exact interpretation of the scene where Ennis gets beaten up after the Thanksgiving dinner.
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Would you find it strange that I also think Ennis had guilty feelings when he had sex with Jack? This is not to say that he didn't enjoy it. But I would say that his actions left him more and more conflicted with each passing year. he couldn't deny it, but I also think he couldn't face up to it.
The operative word is "when" he had sex with Jack. I really didn't get any impression of that from the SS or film. Which would say a lot about Ennis, as there is guilt, for some, even in straight sex. Looked to me like he had a very healthy attitude, before, during, and after.
But as far as over-all guilt, over the relationship itself, it's there in a massive way. So, forgive me for making the distinction, but I see Ennis, when he's in the over-all sexual zone (before, during, after) as extremely healthy. The sex, itself. But as far as the relationship, the love and the sex, when he returned to the non-sexual world, of day-to-day life, he was crippled with guilt.
Secrecy and isolation played a part, too. Riding through the woods and the streams with his lover---no guilt. Pure joy. Talking to Jack, with his daughters in the pick-up truck, guilt to the point of paranoia, seeing things in passing cars. Sexual guilt, then - no. He was more free than most men. Guilt over what others would think, there, a prisoner of the larger world.
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I'm totally amazed at this. For the first time since I'm here I disagree with my dear two friends Tony and Andrew. I can't believe it, but it's true.
I read this thread every day and I have so many things to say about it. I love it so much. I always agree with them, but not now, not with the way Tony and Andrew see our boys if they never had met each other.
Sorry so much for this lame post. I promise I'll find the time to post why I disagree. I just have to find words and time to write, because I'm sooooo slow. But I'll be here.
Thank you so much for your wonderful posts, Tony, Andrew, MG and Thomas!! ^f^
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Baby Tammy - disagreement is good! If we all agreed on everything, we might as well be bumps on a log. I look forward to hearing what you think, and am ready to change my mind, whenever that seems right. Don't hold back, but say what you think. It's so dull if everybody thinks the same way.
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Oily marks appear on walls
where pleasure moments hung before
the take over
the sweeping... insensitivity
of this.....still......life...
By Imogen Heap
When I hear it I think of Ennis.
Sorry if its not on topic. I saw song/poem quotes and went plum loco.
I still believe Ennis was made a better man by Jack. But only with Jack was he the better man. Reverting back and even further into himself.
Ill be needin to watch it again soon. God help those who are here when I do.
"My daddy says rodeon's for fuckups." "The hell you say."
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I'm totally amazed at this. For the first time since I'm here I disagree with my dear two friends Tony and Andrew. I can't believe it, but it's true.
I read this thread every day and I have so many things to say about it. I love it so much. I always agree with them, but not now, not with the way Tony and Andrew see our boys if they never had met each other.
Sorry so much for this lame post. I promise I'll find the time to post why I disagree. I just have to find words and time to write, because I'm sooooo slow. But I'll be here.
Thank you so much for your wonderful posts, Tony, Andrew, MG and Thomas!! ^f^
Wow Tammy, I'd never know that you read this everyday, and you enjoy it so much. Thank you for sharing this. I am glad.
And no worries about disagreement. It is in our disagreements that we learn from each other. I welcome your views on this. How do you see Ennis or Jack, if they had not met each other? How do you account for the prototype cowboy that inspired Annie Proulx to write the short story. I have been wrong many times so I am probably wrong here, too. Afterall, I was wrong about Ennis, and Tony corrected me.
As I said earlier, the last few pages here really helped me to focus on my journey. Thank you all for your input.
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You have said it all here, rimasworld. If there is anything to describe Ennis's resistance to love and friendship, it is the word "sad".
O sad are they who know not love
But far from passions tears and smiles
Drift down a moonless sea
Beyond the silvery coasts of fairy Isles.
And sadder they whose longing lips
Kiss empty air and never touch
The dear warm mouth of those they love
Waiting, wasting, suffering much...
That's very touching.. ty for sharing
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The operative word is "when" he had sex with Jack. I really didn't get any impression of that from the SS or film. Which would say a lot about Ennis, as there is guilt, for some, even in straight sex. Looked to me like he had a very healthy attitude, before, during, and after.
But as far as over-all guilt, over the relationship itself, it's there in a massive way. So, forgive me for making the distinction, but I see Ennis, when he's in the over-all sexual zone (before, during, after) as extremely healthy. The sex, itself. But as far as the relationship, the love and the sex, when he returned to the non-sexual world, of day-to-day life, he was crippled with guilt.
Secrecy and isolation played a part, too. Riding through the woods and the streams with his lover---no guilt. Pure joy. Talking to Jack, with his daughters in the pick-up truck, guilt to the point of paranoia, seeing things in passing cars. Sexual guilt, then - no. He was more free than most men. Guilt over what others would think, there, a prisoner of the larger world.
I agree that guilt looms large when Ennis was in the "real" world. But would you agree that in the SNIT, we do read some uneasiness on the part of Ennis? He let Jack lead the way, but he mostly kept his eyes closed, as if he didn't want to acknowledge what was happening.
It is interesting to recall the memorable passage from the Dozy Embrace. You know it, about Ennis not wanting to look at Jack for fear of seeing who he was holding. Even in this most "sexless" of scenes, we see the world of guilt in Ennis peeping out. Sexless, yes; but it was hardly the "real" world either. The DE was suspended between dream and reality, I would say. But even in this world where desire and friendship/love become one, guilt is ever present.
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Oily marks appear on walls
where pleasure moments hung before
the take over
the sweeping... insensitivity
of this.....still......life...
By Imogen Heap
When I hear it I think of Ennis.
Sorry if its not on topic. I saw song/poem quotes and went plum loco.
I still believe Ennis was made a better man by Jack. But only with Jack was he the better man. Reverting back and even further into himself.
Ill be needin to watch it again soon. God help those who are here when I do.
"My daddy says rodeon's for fuckups." "The hell you say."
Certainly, I think a foundation of love based on friendship, and not just physical attraction, made Ennis a better man. In a way, he may never have opened up to Jack without this...
That's very touching.. ty for sharing
Thank you, rimasworld. :)
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You know it, about Ennis not wanting to look at Jack for fear of seeing who he was holding. Even in this most "sexless" of scenes, we see the world of guilt in Ennis peeping out.
Dear Thomas - I always took the off-beat view that, in the SS, the description of the Dozy Embrace was Jack's flawed perception, his complaint about how he thought Ennis saw him. Similar to Ennis' subjective looking over of how Jack died. It wasn't necessarily true.
One of the most tragic aspects of this great love affair is that neither knew how great the love of each was for the other. So, Jack saw the Dozy Embrace as another example of what was wrong. That's in the SS, and doesn't really show up in the film.
It's a fine distinction we're into here, but, for me, Ennis revelled in the sexual encounters with Jack and it was only when he left the "Jack Zone" and returned to the larger world, that guilt became a really toxic factor. But there's clearly room enough for variations on what was really going on, as far as guilt. And mine may be wrong, but this may just be one of those areas where Annie left it up to us to fill in the blanks.
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Dear Thomas - I always took the off-beat view that, in the SS, the description of the Dozy Embrace was Jack's flawed perception, his complaint about how he thought Ennis saw him. Similar to Ennis' subjective looking over of how Jack died. It wasn't necessarily true.
One of the most tragic aspects of this great love affair is that neither knew how great the love of each was for the other. So, Jack saw the Dozy Embrace as another example of what was wrong. That's in the SS, and doesn't really show up in the film.
It's a fine distinction we're into here, but, for me, Ennis revelled in the sexual encounters with Jack and it was only when he left the "Jack Zone" and returned to the larger world, that guilt became a really toxic factor. But there's clearly room enough for variations on what was really going on, as far as guilt. And mine may be wrong, but this may just be one of those areas where Annie left it up to us to fill in the blanks.
That's amazing, Tony. That's exactly it - the tragic crux of the Brokeback Mountain is not just the oppressive homophobia in Ennis, but also the perceived inability to love that Jack had, of Ennis. If they truly knew how much each meant to the other, how much each loved the other, there would never be any surprise reunion kiss four years later, there would never be the finding of two-shirts in a closet twenty years after the fact. The tragedy was also the mis-opportunities, the love that dared not speak its name, was lost in translation... :\'( Thanks, bud. :ghug:
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I think the point of the DE was Jack realizing that Ennis loved him in spite of all his (Ennis's) fears and misgivings. THAT is the crux of the entire scene, and it parallels Ennis's scene in the closet, when he finally realizes how much Jack loved him in spite of everything that came between them. It was not about whether Jack's perception was flawed or not, IMO. It was about the nature of love and friendship: to be sure of one's love for someone no matter how imperfect that love is. This is what the ending line of the DE means: "Let be, let be."
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I think the point of the DE was Jack realizing that Ennis loved him in spite of all his (Ennis's) fears and misgivings.
Dear Thomas, I completely understand and agree entirely with the quote from you, above. The more so, since the Dozy Embrace was almost a display of parental love, both in the film and SS. Unconditional love, despite human failings.
Yet there were these gray areas left open for us, in some cases, deliberately. I guess that's why "Was Ennis Gay?" on any forum is usually the most read and most controversial. It wouldn't be, if the issue had been definitively settled, by the story and film. And then I actually saw, on one forum, a huge debate over whether, based on the SS only (where there was no SNIT), any kissing or romance had occurred. There's a lot of layers to BBM and plenty of sand in the sandbox to play around with.
But I have a wanting, to see Jack as mistaken, and freely admit that. And sure enough, here's how Annie starts it:
"What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand......" which goes to a very subjective rendering of the experience itself.
But whether he had it right or not, returning to your quote above, he still accepted: "Let be....Let be..." Something was wrong, that Jack knew. And he did, as you said, allow his love to cover whatever failure that was. I just still see that terrible lack of communication between them. MPJ often went to that as the root core of the problem. She needs to come back from her vacation and back to these topics.
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- the tragic crux of the Brokeback Mountain is not just the oppressive homophobia in Ennis, but also the perceived inability to love that Jack had, of Ennis. If they truly knew how much each meant to the other, how much each loved the other, there would never be any surprise reunion kiss four years later, there would never be the finding of two-shirts in a closet twenty years after the fact. The tragedy was also the mis-opportunities, the love that dared not speak its name, was lost in translation...
Yeah, Andrew, it's awful. I think a lot of that is in everybody's life. There's so darned much to getting through life....work, chores, unexpected problems, that the full meaning of many relationships aren't seen until somebody passes on. Both Jack and Ennis took for granted there'd always be another meeting, another stretch of freedom, alone, with each other. And 20 years passed, and that was all they were given. Ennis took it especially hard, in the SS, where he seemed to be often in some kind of delirium. They left that out of the film. Both endings, though, said the same. It wasn't until it was over that the full force hit.
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Dear Thomas, I completely understand and agree entirely with the quote from you, above. The more so, since the Dozy Embrace was almost a display of parental love, both in the film and SS. Unconditional love, despite human failings.
Yet there were these gray areas left open for us, in some cases, deliberately. I guess that's why "Was Ennis Gay?" on any forum is usually the most read and most controversial. It wouldn't be, if the issue had been definitively settled, by the story and film. And then I actually saw, on one forum, a huge debate over whether, based on the SS only (where there was no SNIT), any kissing or romance had occurred. There's a lot of layers to BBM and plenty of sand in the sandbox to play around with.
But I have a wanting, to see Jack as mistaken, and freely admit that. And sure enough, here's how Annie starts it:
"What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand......" which goes to a very subjective rendering of the experience itself.
But whether he had it right or not, returning to your quote above, he still accepted: "Let be....Let be..." Something was wrong, that Jack knew. And he did, as you said, allow his love to cover whatever failure that was. I just still see that terrible lack of communication between them. MPJ often went to that as the root core of the problem. She needs to come back from her vacation and back to these topics.
Tony, I entirely agree with you about the gray areas. After all, the DE is, pretty much, a subjective valedictory on Jack's part, and how we ourselves choose to interpret Jack's thoughts on his love and friendship for Ennis at that critical juncture is open to some degree of interpretation. The important thing here is that no matter what, Jack remembered and cherished this moment as a testament of Ennis's love and friendship for him...
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Tony, I entirely agree with you about the gray areas. After all, the DE is, pretty much, a subjective valedictory on Jack's part, and how we ourselves choose to interpret Jack's thoughts on his love and friendship for Ennis at that critical juncture is open to some degree of interpretation. The important thing here is that no matter what, Jack remembered and cherished this moment as a testament of Ennis's love and friendship for him...
that was the beacon of light Jack held on to all those years
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I think the point of the DE was Jack realizing that Ennis loved him in spite of all his (Ennis's) fears and misgivings. THAT is the crux of the entire scene, and it parallels Ennis's scene in the closet, when he finally realizes how much Jack loved him in spite of everything that came between them. It was not about whether Jack's perception was flawed or not, IMO. It was about the nature of love and friendship: to be sure of one's love for someone no matter how imperfect that love is. This is what the ending line of the DE means: "Let be, let be."
Yes, tpe, you are right, but at the same time, let be is just another way of saying, if you can't fix it, you got to stand it. The problem here, with this "I'm stuck here." attitude, is that they let be and stood it for twenty years, when they coulda explored the depth of their love. They skimmed the joy of sex on the surface of Brokeback Mountain when there is a motherlode of deeper love between them that were NEVER fully expressed.
Let be, is good, up to a point. But letting it be too long, and it becomes a bad habit. Good habits have a way of evolving, whereas bad ones tend to stick around way too long.
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Yeah, Andrew, it's awful. I think a lot of that is in everybody's life. There's so darned much to getting through life....work, chores, unexpected problems, that the full meaning of many relationships aren't seen until somebody passes on. Both Jack and Ennis took for granted there'd always be another meeting, another stretch of freedom, alone, with each other. And 20 years passed, and that was all they were given. Ennis took it especially hard, in the SS, where he seemed to be often in some kind of delirium. They left that out of the film. Both endings, though, said the same. It wasn't until it was over that the full force hit.
You said it, bud. And in spite of all the lessons, I still hold back, sometimes. As you said in another thread,...fear of love... :(
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that was the beacon of light Jack held on to all those years
What a beautiful thing to call it.
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Yes, tpe, you are right, but at the same time, let be is just another way of saying, if you can't fix it, you got to stand it. The problem here, with this "I'm stuck here." attitude, is that they let be and stood it for twenty years, when they coulda explored the depth of their love. They skimmed the joy of sex on the surface of Brokeback Mountain when there is a motherlode of deeper love between them that were NEVER fully expressed.
Let be, is good, up to a point. But letting it be too long, and it becomes a bad habit. Good habits have a way of evolving, whereas bad ones tend to stick around way too long.
Interesting: because I had thought early on that there is a very different tone of voice between "If you can't fix it..." and "Let be..." The former has the feeling of being forced upon us, whereas the latter is a gentle resignation and acceptance.
It is a beautiful phrase: "Let be, let be." It sums up beautifully Jack's love and friendship with Ennis. In it, we find acceptance and understanding, even if he did not fully understand or comprehend. Love in the form of agape is beyond all human understanding. It is Divine.
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Interesting: because I had thought early on that there is a very different tone of voice between "If you can't fix it..." and "Let be..." The former has the feeling of being forced upon us, whereas the latter is a gentle resignation and acceptance.
It is a beautiful phrase: "Let be, let be." It sums up beautifully Jack's love and friendship with Ennis. In it, we find acceptance and understanding, even if he did not fully understand or comprehend. Love in the form of agape is beyond all human understanding. It is Divine.
Yes, I agree with you 100% that there is a very different tone between Let be, and can't fix it. And it is Jack's heroic love of twenty years, that Ennis finally discovered in the two shirts, that made him realized that he shoulda and coulda fix it.
Love ...with acceptance and understanding, like Jack's, like Jack's Ma in the final scenes, is indeed Divine.
I guess I am at the stage, like some of you were, where I wish the love was a little more pushy, and Ennis was a little less stuck. Then again, I ain't as patient as Jack.
"Every four #$%ing years!"
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If Jack's love and friendship is characterized by strong acceptance, Ennis's love and friendship is characterized by an abiding faithfulness. Indeed, acceptance and faithfulness make an invincible whole. :)
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If Jack's love and friendship is characterized by strong acceptance, Ennis's love and friendship is characterized by an abiding faithfulness. Indeed, acceptance and faithfulness make an invincible whole. :)
I've always wondered if it was Ennis acceptance of Jack's love or the belief in Jack's love Ennis found in the shirts, there is a difference isn't there?
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I've always wondered if it was Ennis acceptance of Jack's love or the belief in Jack's love Ennis found in the shirts, there is a difference isn't there?
I think it was more a belief in the depth of that love. But to be sure, I think it was more of belief. :)
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I've always wondered if it was Ennis acceptance of Jack's love or the belief in Jack's love Ennis found in the shirts, there is a difference isn't there?
It's a little awkward, saying anything here, as the thread on the shirts has just been revived. But MG's post was here, so will answer here.
On the whole, there are very few of the topics discussed in these threads where I couldn't find some grounds for changing my mind. Or, at least, conceding another explanation held up and so I should keep that as something to look for, later. But, forgive me for stubborness, the meaning of the discovery of the shirts was never one of them.
All parts of the movie, and those just before the discovery, for me led to one conclusion: Ennis never knew the depth of Jack's love for him. So then, yes, there is the distinction between accepting that love, finally, or at last believing. But before those distinctions MG wonders over, for me, the most important point was that.....he didn't know.
Then, finally knowing, maybe it moved not to Ennis accepting Jack's love, but the opposite, accepting, in full, his own great love for Jack, which he had been fighting, all along. Sorry for being stubborn, on this one, but this is the core of the movie for me, and I fully respect anyone else's take, but, for me, on this one, will stay with that. We each have our little areas, where we don't budge, so there's no harm there.
It certainly is one of the most powerful moments in the story, and for many of us, the most important. Great art, great acting, great meaning.
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Tony...couldn't both of those statements be true? Not only did he realize the love that Jack had for him, but he also came to accept the love he had for Jack (upon finding the shirts). <^(
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Tony...couldn't both of those statements be true? Not only did he realize the love that Jack had for him, but he also came to accept the love he had for Jack (upon finding the shirts).
Dear Atalley - sorry, didn't see your post until this morning. Yes, you're right, both statements could be true. Especially since, at the moment of discovering the depth of Jack's love, Ennis was then suddenly free to fully admit his own, to himself and to others (by behavior) without fear of his own great love not being retturned.
It's a little awkward, being in this territory, because related threads have just been revived, including the diner scenes. And they all interact. It really looks like, for 20 years, Ennis couldn't put a name to "this thing that comes over us", and when there were signs of what it really was, love, not friendship or sex, there were many fears to deal with. Better to just keep going, with no definition.
But, as so many have pointed out (I believe Andrew and Thomas leading the way), in the diner, Ennis was beginning to put the pieces together, and maybe even see, deferring some resolution was no longer possible.
But, as you said, both may have occurred at the same time, with the shirts. In fact, I believe they did. Ennis discovered proof of an abiding love that traced back all the way to the mountain. Not friendship. Not sex. You don't keep those shirts for that. But, love. And with that proof, he was free to admit and accept, in full, with no reservations, that he had loved Jack Twist.
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Wonderful exchange, atalley and tony. I find it interesting that I now read your comment about the diner scene after just discussing it in one of the threads. I do think that it signaled a sort of change of heart in Ennis, or a beginning of understanding in terms of llove.
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But, as you said, both may have occurred at the same time, with the shirts. In fact, I believe they did. Ennis discovered proof of an abiding love that traced back all the way to the mountain. Not friendship. Not sex. You don't keep those shirts for that. But, love. And with that proof, he was free to admit and accept, in full, with no reservations, that he had loved Jack Twist.
Tony, for me that's it exactly.
I tend to put less emphasis on the importance of the exchange in the diner than others. I think it revealed a lot of things about some of the characters, but I think it was the shock of Jack's death and the realization that there would never be another November for them that opened the door for Ennis to look inside of himself and take some big leaps. Calling Lureen in Texas was the first step. Going to Lightning Flat and talking to Jack's parents was huge for someone like Ennis. But finding the shirts and understanding what they meant was the pivotal moment in realizing that 'this thing' they had was love; that Jack Twist had loved him all those years and that what he felt for Jack was love too.
The tragedy (to me) is that it took the loss of Jack, and what that jolt did to his heart, to get Ennis to understand that what they had was love all along.
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The tragedy (to me) is that it took the loss of Jack, and what that jolt did to his heart, to get Ennis to understand that what they had was love all along.
Thanks, FlowerChild, for that peaceful and and rightful support of where Atalley and I converged. That justs holds up so strongly. But, dang it all, I still wobble a little when I remember something else (for the movie is so very rich in differing scenes).
Ennis said to Jack, that last time: "All those things I don't know...? ....Will come to get you killed if I ever find out." He was freaking out, and, IMO, letting out a lot of pent-up suspicion and worry.
There was so much between them over those years, there had to have been some wrestling with the fact they were lovers, not just friends. So, with that rage, and that melt-down, Ennis knew, but probably feared the word itself. The finality of that word. And if Jack was doing it with others, then, for Ennis there was the dilemma of whether Jack's love for him was as "chaste" and true, as Ennis' love for him.
We see Ennis accepting, with a dull smile, Jack's father telling of another guy Jack had planned to move there, to Lightning Flat. We see an Ennis resigned to Jack's not placing him first. And we can remember what he'd said to Jack's wife: "We wuz friends...."
Yeah, he knew Jack loved him. What the tragedy Atalley and I were fiddling with, was the sudden realization of the greatness of the love, from Jack, and how that freed Ennis to finally, finally accept the extreme of his love FOR Jack. So that what was discovered in that room was more than love, but the lightning bolt realization, it was the Great Love.
All you said, then, FlowerChild, is just what I also see as the broad picture. And then I have to go messing with the little shades of color tones and texture of the portrait itself.
Well, t-storms in Norfolk for 2 -3 days, so, I hope am not knocked off the internet too often. Rainy days, and BBM.......
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Yeah, he knew Jack loved him. What the tragedy Atalley and I were fiddling with, was the sudden realization of the greatness of the love, from Jack, and how that freed Ennis to finally, finally accept the extreme of his love FOR Jack. So that what was discovered in that room was more than love, but the lightning bolt realization, it was the Great Love.
All you said, then, FlowerChild, is just what I also see as the broad picture. And then I have to go messing with the little shades of color tones and texture of the portrait itself.
Well, t-storms in Norfolk for 2 -3 days, so, I hope am not knocked off the internet too often. Rainy days, and BBM.......
Absolutely Tony. The realization that what Jack felt for him was love all along, that kind of love, and that it was ok that what he felt for Jack was genuine romantic love as well. That he was, in fact, the love of his life. And vice versa.
And I think that is what sustains the closet shrine and Ennis's declaration of "Jack, I swear..." which contains so much and can be interpreted in so many ways.
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It also occured to me that from the misunderstandings/accusations embedded in the last confrontation, perhaps Ennis still thought that for Jack, it was largely about sex. Surely, Jacks comment about he's not like Ennis may appear to reinforce this notion. But we see what Jack was trying to say: that it meant much more to him than a few casual meetings up in the middle of nowhere. For him, he wanted the whole life. He wanted to grow old in their love.
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It also occured to me that from the misunderstandings/accusations embedded in the last confrontation, perhaps Ennis still thought that for Jack, it was largely about sex. Surely, Jacks comment about he's not like Ennis may appear to reinforce this notion. But we see what Jack was trying to say: that it meant much more to him than a few casual meetings up in the middle of nowhere. For him, he wanted the whole life. He wanted to grow old in their love.
I think you are right, there, tpe, that there is definitely a dis-connect between Ennis and Jack when it comes to the meaning of their relationship, up there in the mountain in the middle of no where. Jack always wants the cow and calf operation, growing old together, living together. Ennis always felt (so he thought) that it was just a one-shot deal, a bit of fun between friends, the sex thing. And the final confrontation brought all the misunderstanding to a head, and boiled over. Unfortunately for Ennis, he did not get it, not until Cassie cried her eyes out in the diner..."Girls don't fall in love with fun." Then he realized in a flash of recognition that it was more than just a bit of fun between friends, more than just the sex. It was something deeper, and perhaps...love. So even though he couldn't make it in August, he sent a postcard to Jack, to keep the connection alive. He wanted to go further. He was ready.
When he saw the two shirts, one within another, hanging like that for twenty years. It just occurred to me that, perhaps the sleeves were even stuck together when he reached for them. I could never see too clearly through the tears at this point, but it is possible. And if that is true, then Ennis must surely realized, that for twenty years, Jack held those shirts, just like that, always. His love was steadfast. And in that moment of recognition... :\'( Ennis rose from the ashes, and was made better by the love between them, the memories on Brokeback Mountain, that summer of '63. True, he also felt a mix of many other emotions, from regret, to grief, .... but shining brightly out of all the darkness is the love that HE also felt for Jack, in the form of hugging the shirts facing him, not away, like in the dozy embrace. In the past, he could not express that love. And now, he could, even in front of John Twist, and especially gratifying, to Jack's Ma.
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He was ready.
That's what I do, myself, want to believe, Andrew. And though it's not proven, there's enough there to hope it was true.
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That's what I do, myself, want to believe, Andrew. And though it's not proven, there's enough there to hope it was true.
I think the power of the movie's tragic ending came from Ennis' love lost. After twenty years, Jack was denied the opportunity to see the man he loved so deeply for so long, finally coming around to meet him half way. And for Ennis, after denying all his life, the love he felt inside, when finally he was ready to love Jack, as least face to face, he was also denied. It is the tragic love denied that grips us so strongly. We wish it was not so. We wish, we hope, the flow of love continues. And it is this hope that we carry with us in every brokie meet, in this forum.
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I think you are right, there, tpe, that there is definitely a dis-connect between Ennis and Jack when it comes to the meaning of their relationship, up there in the mountain in the middle of no where. Jack always wants the cow and calf operation, growing old together, living together. Ennis always felt (so he thought) that it was just a one-shot deal, a bit of fun between friends, the sex thing. And the final confrontation brought all the misunderstanding to a head, and boiled over. Unfortunately for Ennis, he did not get it, not until Cassie cried her eyes out in the diner..."Girls don't fall in love with fun." Then he realized in a flash of recognition that it was more than just a bit of fun between friends, more than just the sex. It was something deeper, and perhaps...love. So even though he couldn't make it in August, he sent a postcard to Jack, to keep the connection alive. He wanted to go further. He was ready.
Thanks lance for that observation. The connection just occurred to me right now as I was reasing the above.
When he saw the two shirts, one within another, hanging like that for twenty years. It just occurred to me that, perhaps the sleeves were even stuck together when he reached for them. I could never see too clearly through the tears at this point, but it is possible. And if that is true, then Ennis must surely realized, that for twenty years, Jack held those shirts, just like that, always. His love was steadfast. And in that moment of recognition... :\'( Ennis rose from the ashes, and was made better by the love between them, the memories on Brokeback Mountain, that summer of '63. True, he also felt a mix of many other emotions, from regret, to grief, .... but shining brightly out of all the darkness is the love that HE also felt for Jack, in the form of hugging the shirts facing him, not away, like in the dozy embrace. In the past, he could not express that love. And now, he could, even in front of John Twist, and especially gratifying, to Jack's Ma.
Beautifully said, lance.
If they were stuck together, then I can see a lot of symbolism there.
And I love the later part of your post: the light that shone out of the darkness being how HE felt.
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That's what I do, myself, want to believe, Andrew. And though it's not proven, there's enough there to hope it was true.
And indeed there is.
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thank, tpe, tony, you guys always make me feel better. <^( :ghug:
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I'm glad you feel better Andrew...I'm getting a headache from crying. Just when I think I'm ok, the PBS hits hard on some of these posts. I need a Brokie :ghug:
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I'm glad you feel better Andrew...I'm getting a headache from crying. Just when I think I'm ok, the PBS hits hard on some of these posts. I need a Brokie :ghug:
:ghug: atalley :ghug:
You have company, dear, because I have been crying on and off for the last week, since I watched The Trip...It reminded me so much of Brokeback Mountain, and with the same tragic end. On top of that, it reminded me that there are evil people in the world, not just straight people, but gay people, too. There are wolves among the sheep, where ever we go. But in a way, embracing the movie, as I did Brokeback Mountain, made me stronger, and gave me the strength to face up to my own demons from the past. I was almost in tears on the bus, waiting at the bus stop. Those seem to be the worst moments for me. Like the song, Tuesday, 2 AM...I 've got too much time to think...
:ghug: atalley :ghug:
I have learned to focus on the friendship here, and the love that are really everywhere, if we know where to look. Ennis shut it out of his life. I am learning to attract more of it into mine. It takes a while to break an old, old habit.
Accept friendship as it is...no string attached.
Treasure love as the fragile gift that it is...softly, gently, with my heart.
And experience sex as the fire that it is...carefully, prudently, like a chef,
to make love sing, without getting burned.
:ghug: atalley :ghug:
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Thanks so much for the :ghug: Andrew. Yes, we all need friends with no strings attached. Also, in our marriage, I'm learning that difficult times are bringing us closer together. (This was not always the case-thanks to me).
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Thanks so much for the :ghug: Andrew. Yes, we all need friends with no strings attached. Also, in our marriage, I'm learning that difficult times are bringing us closer together. (This was not always the case-thanks to me).
:ghug: atalley :ghug:
Part of what Ennis taught me is that it is never too early or too late to make a change. Whenever we make a change for the better, it is the perfect time. It took me a long time to learn my lessons, and I wish I had learned them faster, but that's really hypothetical because who could tell, if my learning those lessons faster, could mean my not feeling Brokeback Mountain as much, and not finding this forum as a result?.... I stopped thinking of the what if, coulda, woulda after finding Garth Brooks The Dance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD-TThvtazA - a youtube video of a tribute to Heath, with the song The Dance.
Looking back on the memory of
The dance we shared beneath the stars above
For a moment all the world was right
How could I have known you'd ever say goodbye
And now I'm glad I didn't know
The way it all would end the way it all would go
Our lives are better left to chance I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance
Holding you I held everything
For a moment wasn't I the king
But if I'd only known how the king would fall
Hey who's to say you know I might have changed it all
And now I'm glad I didn't know
The way it all would end the way it all would go
Our lives are better left to chance I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance
Yes my life is better left to chance
I could have missed the pain but I'd of had to miss the dance
I still need to make SOME plans, but I leave it as a frame work to fill in the detail by chance.
I wish that I can do as Heath did, never making plans...but I think he made some plans, too.
So it is with friendship, love, and sex. There is no making plans about them. They just happen, to Ennis and Jack one summer. Jack probably didn't plan on FNIT...but simply made the move when the opportunity came along. And Ennis never planed on SNIT either, but when it came along, he overcame his doubts and fear.
That's what I am working on nowadays, learning to be prepared, when the time comes.
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So it is with friendship, love, and sex. There is no making plans about them. They just happen, to Ennis and Jack one summer. Jack probably didn't plan on FNIT...but simply made the move when the opportunity came along. And Ennis never planed on SNIT either, but when it came along, he overcame his doubts and fear.
That's what I am working on nowadays, learning to be prepared, when the time comes.
I largely agree. Jack could have planned FNIT up to a point, but I think that he relied pretty much on things happening after Ennis had to stay the night -- he let the spirit move him, so to speak. The fact that they didn't come to blows once jack did the starting move showed pretty much how far the love and friendship had developed, in spite of themselves.
As for the SNIT, I say the same thing: till the last minute, Ebbis was battling with himself. All he had to go with is his undeniable feelings for Jack. Come what may.
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Ennis, it seems, was repressed for the good part of 20 years...He could never go public with Jack...and yet at that first reunion he was love struck for that person coming out of the red truck..heartfelt feelings bursting thru his body..the avalanche of him taking those stairs to embrace his other half. The hotel scene too..very hot.....but he did keep Jack on a very strangulated leash..it was downhill after that IMO...Somehow, after his divorce, later when the girls were grown,a reinvigoration should have begun inside his brain= the dawning of Jack- yes, we can do it- divorced men pretending to be cousins living on a small ranch-oh, this is truly beginning to scrape the bottom of a barrel...if you can't fix it, screw it...
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Ennis, it seems, was repressed for the good part of 20 years...He could never go public with Jack...and yet at that first reunion he was love struck for that person coming out of the red truck..heartfelt feelings bursting thru his body..the avalanche of him taking those stairs to embrace his other half. The hotel scene too..very hot.....but he did keep Jack on a very strangulated leash..it was downhill after that IMO...Somehow, after his divorce, later when the girls were grown,a reinvigoration should have begun inside his brain= the dawning of Jack- yes, we can do it- divorced men pretending to be cousins living on a small ranch-oh, this is truly beginning to scrape the bottom of a barrel...if you can't fix it, screw it...
Ennis was the homophobic man in love with another man, as Heath put it in an interview. Ennis denied this love for as long as he could, this thing with no reins. He was energized whenever he was with Jack. Like when he charged into the apartment after the night with Jack in Motel Siesta, and ran through the rooms getting ready for the weekend camping with Jack. He acted like a little kid excited beyond belief on his first camping trip. He didn't have the education or the emotional development to rein in his feelings, to understand them, but he knew what it was doing to him. Hiding them was the only way he knew, to protect himself in the homophobic rural west of the past. Meeting Cassie in the diner showed him a little of what this was, love, not just sex, or friendship.
It was a long journey for Ennis to travel from homophobia to acceptance. It is this remarkable journey that Heath depicted so brilliantly in a moment of truth in the tiny closet in Lightning Flats, when Ennis saw, recognized, and reached out to the two shirts. It is this liberation from his prison that Heath portrayed so perfectly in that wrenching embrace of the two shirts, yearning for the person in it.
He can't go back and change what was in the past, what was the reality of Jack's death, so he just gotta stand it, for as long as he lived, and make the most of what he had.
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Yes, but it was belated understanding, coupled with added loneliness....achingly wretched..yes, they had their love for all it was worth...but for others with this unbearableness they might have put a gun to their mouth.....Maybe I shouldn't have seen this movie....Laurel and Hardy next time.......kidding aside, brilliant believable acting by both of them.....
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Yes, but it was belated understanding, coupled with added loneliness....achingly wretched..yes, they had their love for all it was worth...but for others with this unbearableness they might have put a gun to their mouth.....Maybe I shouldn't have seen this movie....Laurel and Hardy next time.......kidding aside, brilliant believable acting by both of them.....
Brilliant acting yes, Heath captured the stoicism of Ennis, and if you can't change it, you gotta stand it. Ennis would never take the coward's way out, not with his girls still so young, and finding a new friend in Jack's Ma. On top of all that, he still had an obligation to Jack, to lay his ashes in Brokeback Mountain. Ennis would never let him down, after all that. The one thing that Jack wanted, that Ennis could do for him. Ennis would never rest, until he could make it come true.
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Ennis was the homophobic man in love with another man, as Heath put it in an interview. Ennis denied this love for as long as he could, this thing with no reins. He was energized whenever he was with Jack. Like when he charged into the apartment after the night with Jack in Motel Siesta, and ran through the rooms getting ready for the weekend camping with Jack. He acted like a little kid excited beyond belief on his first camping trip. He didn't have the education or the emotional development to rein in his feelings, to understand them, but he knew what it was doing to him. Hiding them was the only way he knew, to protect himself in the homophobic rural west of the past. Meeting Cassie in the diner showed him a little of what this was, love, not just sex, or friendship.
It was a long journey for Ennis to travel from homophobia to acceptance. It is this remarkable journey that Heath depicted so brilliantly in a moment of truth in the tiny closet in Lightning Flats, when Ennis saw, recognized, and reached out to the two shirts. It is this liberation from his prison that Heath portrayed so perfectly in that wrenching embrace of the two shirts, yearning for the person in it.
He can't go back and change what was in the past, what was the reality of Jack's death, so he just gotta stand it, for as long as he lived, and make the most of what he had.
You did it to me again Lance - a very moving post! :\'( :\'( :\'(
I read on the other forum the story of a man, a cowboy, who was an inspiration for Heath to perform Ennis. That story is also amazing and moving, and depicts everything you've just describe in your post.
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Yes, but it was belated understanding, coupled with added loneliness....achingly wretched..yes, they had their love for all it was worth...but for others with this unbearableness they might have put a gun to their mouth.....Maybe I shouldn't have seen this movie....Laurel and Hardy next time.......kidding aside, brilliant believable acting by both of them.....
I know pretty much what you feel and what you want to say. It was the same with me... and still is! :(
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You did it to me again Lance - a very moving post! :\'( :\'( :\'(
I read on the other forum the story of a man, a cowboy, who was an inspiration for Heath to perform Ennis. That story is also amazing and moving, and depicts everything you've just describe in your post.
:ghug: loreen :ghug:
Heath met Adam Sutton on the shoot for the movie Ned Kelly. Adam, also from Australia, taught Heath how to ride, and from that, they developed a life-long friendship. Heath used some of these skills when he was in the movie Four Feathers. You can find out more about Adam Sutton in on the threads here. Just search on Adam Sutton. He wrote a book and there is a link to buy it online.
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I bought a used copy of "Shout It Out Loud" by Adam Sutton on Amazon.com and am awaiting it's arrival.
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:ghug: loreen :ghug:
Heath met Adam Sutton on the shoot for the movie Ned Kelly. Adam, also from Australia, taught Heath how to ride, and from that, they developed a life-long friendship. Heath used some of these skills when he was in the movie Four Feathers. You can find out more about Adam Sutton in on the threads here. Just search on Adam Sutton. He wrote a book and there is a link to buy it online.
I know Lance, I've seen the whole story, just forgot the name. Very moving story!
I'd just watched the deleted scene with the shirts and a video with Diana Ross' song "When you tell you love me" with some selected scenes from BBM, and I am a wreck again.... :\'( :\'( :\'(
This comes and goes in waves. I was pretty good for a few weeks and I just knew that it's time to sink again. :\'( :\'( :\'(
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I bought a used copy of "Shout It Out Loud" by Adam Sutton on Amazon.com and am awaiting it's arrival.
Oh! I think that it could be very interesting to read the whole book!
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:ghug: loreen :ghug: there's no reins on this one, but being here sharing it helps a lot.
I hope you enjoy the book, atalley. Dirtbiker read it and showed some of the photos on the Adam Sutton thread. It's really amazing. You will find the radio interview there. It's an hour long, and listening to it, I was in tears for most of it. So be prepared.
:ghug:
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Ennis was the homophobic man in love with another man, as Heath put it in an interview. Ennis denied this love for as long as he could, this thing with no reins. He was energized whenever he was with Jack. Like when he charged into the apartment after the night with Jack in Motel Siesta, and ran through the rooms getting ready for the weekend camping with Jack. He acted like a little kid excited beyond belief on his first camping trip. He didn't have the education or the emotional development to rein in his feelings, to understand them, but he knew what it was doing to him. Hiding them was the only way he knew, to protect himself in the homophobic rural west of the past. Meeting Cassie in the diner showed him a little of what this was, love, not just sex, or friendship.
It was a long journey for Ennis to travel from homophobia to acceptance. It is this remarkable journey that Heath depicted so brilliantly in a moment of truth in the tiny closet in Lightning Flats, when Ennis saw, recognized, and reached out to the two shirts. It is this liberation from his prison that Heath portrayed so perfectly in that wrenching embrace of the two shirts, yearning for the person in it.
He can't go back and change what was in the past, what was the reality of Jack's death, so he just gotta stand it, for as long as he lived, and make the most of what he had.
Yes, but it was belated understanding, coupled with added loneliness....achingly wretched..yes, they had their love for all it was worth...but for others with this unbearableness they might have put a gun to their mouth.....Maybe I shouldn't have seen this movie....Laurel and Hardy next time.......kidding aside, brilliant believable acting by both of them.....
Great exchange.
nagsheadsea412, in spite of the tragedy that is BBM, I hope you can see past the pain and the despair. For others, friendship and love should not be taken as an unbearable false hope. I would like to think that even Ennis saw this in the end, even though his understanding was belated.
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Great exchange.
nagsheadsea412, in spite of the tragedy that is BBM, I hope you can see past the pain and the despair. For others, friendship and love should not be taken as an unbearable false hope. I would like to think that even Ennis saw this in the end, even though his understanding was belated.
Thanks, tpe, but I don't understand what you mean about "... friendship and love should not be taken as an unbearable false hope." If anything at all, to me, Brokeback Mountain, and the discussion in this thread particularly point to love being born of friendship, and that there is hope, as long as we are open to love, and not hold on to fears, as Ennis did.
Jack and Ennis went up the mountain expecting nothing, and was thrilled to find the friendship that had them pawing the white out of the Moon. And from that friendship, and Jack's hopes and dreams, came FNIT, SNIT, and the rest.
It was Ennis' own fears, and the bigotry of his father, of the times, that denied them of their hopes and dreams. The hope was not false, in my opinion. Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning, in which case, I hope to be illuminated.
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Thanks, tpe, but I don't understand what you mean about "... friendship and love should not be taken as an unbearable false hope." If anything at all, to me, Brokeback Mountain, and the discussion in this thread particularly point to love being born of friendship, and that there is hope, as long as we are open to love, and not hold on to fears, as Ennis did.
Jack and Ennis went up the mountain expecting nothing, and was thrilled to find the friendship that had them pawing the white out of the Moon. And from that friendship, and Jack's hopes and dreams, came FNIT, SNIT, and the rest.
It was Ennis' own fears, and the bigotry of his father, of the times, that denied them of their hopes and dreams. The hope was not false, in my opinion. Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning, in which case, I hope to be illuminated.
Hello lance. :) Perhaps I am misunderstanding the comment, but I was reacting to this:
Yes, but it was belated understanding, coupled with added loneliness....achingly wretched..yes, they had their love for all it was worth...but for others with this unbearableness they might have put a gun to their mouth.....[/b]
Love can also bring pain, anguish, and (yes) loneliness. But I would like to think that the experience of love outweighs all these. If anything, love should teach us not to despair, even if a love is not requited or brings about difficulties and complications. The "unbearableness" should never make any of us think for one moment that a life of love is not worth living.
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The way I see the order is the same as some others, so
1. the friendship was first of course.
2. Then it was love,
3. and than sex.
Of course, at the beginning love was just a seed and it was not easy to see it in the way we recognize sex... We can't say - there's being some sex developing in here, cos sex is obvious, but IMO there was love before sex. Later it developed during SNIT, to be in full by the time they separated in 1963, but they just didn't know it. Ennis knew that was something huge going on, something he was afraid of and therefore he punched Jack that day so severe. What he didn't know is that Jack would be in his heart forever, and there would be no place on Earth where he could hide from his own feelings. The power of Ennis' love was brilliantly expressed in the reunion kiss, and Jack's love was never to suspect.
Unfortunately, they never spoke up about love. They never said it out loud...
Friendship was normal, sex was obvious, but love.... love was not something that two men should share. This especially goes to Ennis, and if Jack ever contemplated about love, if he ever wanted to state his love he suspected that Ennis would reject and ridicule it.
Well, we all know the result of that silence... :\'(
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I tend to believe,Loreen,that fist was attraction (remember when they first met),even if very hidden in Ennis case and,maybe,a little "disguised" as friendship in Jack's.In second place,friendship,of course.Then sex(even if shaded because love's seed was already planted) and finally,love.
I would like to ask you all if you think that they are better friends than lovers,it's to say; did they have a real trust in each other,a greater communication when they were only friends-no matter now what they felt inside) and they lost a great part of this when they became lovers?.
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I tend to believe,Loreen,that fist was attraction (remember when they first met),even if very hidden in Ennis case and,maybe,a little "disguised" as friendship in Jack's.In second place,friendship,of course.Then sex(even if shaded because love's seed was already planted) and finally,love.
I would like to ask you all if you think that they are better friends than lovers,it's to say; did they have a real trust in each other,a greater communication when they were only friends-no matter now what they felt inside) and they lost a great part of this when they became lovers?.
MPJ ^f^,
I didn't mention attraction cos it was not in the theme, but you might be right here. I am not the best person to talk about it.
But I strongly believe that before sex there was love. <^( (I don't quite understand why you say that sex was "shaded because of love"?)
Love was there. When they talked about their families and after Jack says that Ennis hadn't been spoken so much for past 2 weeks, he gave Ennis such a look... it was Love with a capital "L". Were they aware of it? Probably not, but it was there.
As I said sex was the easiest part of their relationship to recognize - we can't miss it. :)
About your question: I believe that sex in their relationship was just a step foreward, after they had a full trust in each other, after they developed a friendship and after they felt something romanticaly for each other. Their physical relatioship didn't spoil anything IMO, only made them closer and turn their relationship into the fullest belonging one person with another. <^( (^)
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Although I tend to believe that the attraction was initially sexual, I am drawn to the belief that it became much more than that soon after. Perhaps Jack was initially interested in a sexual relationship that would be discarded/forgotten once the summer had passed. One wonders whether he has done something like this in the past. But the small talk at the bar soon revealed to him that they had more in common than first meets the eye...
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MPJ ^f^,
I didn't mention attraction cos it was not in the theme, but you might be right here. I am not the best person to talk about it.
But I strongly believe that before sex there was love. <^( (I don't quite understand why you say that sex was "shaded because of love"?)
Love was there. When they talked about their families and after Jack says that Ennis hadn't been spoken so much for past 2 weeks, he gave Ennis such a look... it was Love with a capital "L". Were they aware of it? Probably not, but it was there.
As I said sex was the easiest part of their relationship to recognize - we can't miss it. :)
About your question: I believe that sex in their relationship was just a step foreward, after they had a full trust in each other, after they developed a friendship and after they felt something romanticaly for each other. Their physical relatioship didn't spoil anything IMO, only made them closer and turn their relationship into the fullest belonging one person with another. <^( (^)
Well,I'm afraid I didn't explain myself well enough by writing this;by saying that sex was first than love and that love was "shaded",I meant that love was already between them somehow when they had sex.(Remember that my exact phrase was: Then sex(even if shaded because love's seed was already planted).
It's to say,love existed even if they didn't completely realise it,and even if FNIT was the logical conclusion of a sexual tension between them-and I'm not speaking now about love...-that led consequently to SNIT and the full realisatiuon and acceptation of their love-I'm speaking about this in anotherpost today...-.I don't know if now all this makes sense... :-\\
Although I tend to believe that the attraction was initially sexual, I am drawn to the belief that it became much more than that soon after. Perhaps Jack was initially interested in a sexual relationship that would be discarded/forgotten once the summer had passed. One wonders whether he has done something like this in the past. But the small talk at the bar soon revealed to him that they had more in common than first meets the eye...
Yes,it's more or less what I meant.But I'm not speaking about terms,although I also believe that it became much more than a simple attraction much sooner than it seems at the first moment.I'm speaking about the order of their feelings and sensations and the logical development of them.And,in this sense,I keep on believing that first was atraction,after that friendship,sex and love;even if there have been some moments when two or more of these feelings got mixed...
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Although I tend to believe that the attraction was initially sexual, I am drawn to the belief that it became much more than that soon after. Perhaps Jack was initially interested in a sexual relationship that would be discarded/forgotten once the summer had passed. One wonders whether he has done something like this in the past. But the small talk at the bar soon revealed to him that they had more in common than first meets the eye...
I recall Jake explained that Ang told him Jack had more experience than Ennis.
Personally, I believe the initial attraction was sexual from Jack only. Ennis simply treated Jack as another man to work with. It was after the friendship developed through the months together, and then the bear incident that more affectionate feelings surfaced. Sex was only incidental after Jack initiated it FNIT and then it became a part of the love that never died in SNIT.
To me, Ennis was more about love. This explains why he never went with another man. Jack was partly about sex, always, so he needed it more, with Ennis or not. The intensity of love from Ennis also touched Jack in a way that he could never get from any other, so he could never quit.
The two fitted each other, Jack the initiator, Ennis the sustainer.
Neither would love, like this, always, without the other.
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I recall Jake explained that Ang told him Jack had more experience than Ennis.
Personally, I believe the initial attraction was sexual from Jack only. Ennis simply treated Jack as another man to work with. It was after the friendship developed through the months together, and then the bear incident that more affectionate feelings surfaced. Sex was only incidental after Jack initiated it FNIT and then it became a part of the love that never died in SNIT.
To me, Ennis was more about love. This explains why he never went with another man. Jack was partly about sex, always, so he needed it more, with Ennis or not. The intensity of love from Ennis also touched Jack in a way that he could never get from any other, so he could never quit.
The two fitted each other, Jack the initiator, Ennis the sustainer.
Neither would love, like this, always, without the other.
Hi, Lance ^f^
I believe that it had been much less than months before FNIT. E.g. the man who broghted them a groceries said -"too early in the summer to be sick of beans". I think that was put on purpose to give us an idea that the summer just started.
I think that you have a point when you say that sexual attraction started with Jack, and that sexual part was always more emphasized in him than in Ennis! That's a very good poin IMO! Even so, I don't think that Jack was touched only by Ennis' love intensity. I believe that there was much more than that! Especially cos Ennis pulled back so many times, cos he let himself be comfortable with his feelings and sexual desire very few times. If Jack rely only to this, that wouldn't be enough. I believe that there was a special chemistry between them based on many things, starting from a misfortunate childhood through 2 opposite characters, two loving souls and the need they both had for a pure relatioship, without a complications. And they were capable to give each other just that - friendship and love in the form no one else could give them.
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About your question: I believe that sex in their relationship was just a step foreward, after they had a full trust in each other, after they developed a friendship and after they felt something romanticaly for each other. Their physical relatioship didn't spoil anything IMO, only made them closer and turn their relationship into the fullest belonging one person with another. <^( (^)
One more time I hadn't explained myself well enough(my stupid English is always playing me some bad tricks¡ ^*) ).In this case,I was referring if you believe that the trust in each other they showed when they were simply friends-and now I'm speaking about friendship only,letting aside the possible attraction there could be...-.got a little diminished when their relationship became deeper.We have seen as someone as silent and lonely as Ennis managed to talk with Jack about facts of his life that never before had shared with anybody;how in the s.s. specially,we are told that they were happy to have found someone who they agreed with.In sum,how their friendship was based in a great trust in one another.
But we have seen also how,with the years passing,they hadn't trust enough as to be naked emotionally before the other in a full sense,and IMO there're several examples:from the very moment they said farewell after having come down from the mountain-an example of lack of communication...) to an inexistent talk about their real feelings and the way they could develop them in the latest years.It's not so illogical that two persons who "work" very well as a friends,lost a considerable part of this emotional intimacy when becoming a couple;several very different and sometimes mixed feelings enter into it them,be jealousy,be fear of losing the beloved person,be taking for granted that everything is said and done between them and that each one knows perfectly well what the other thinks,wishes or fears...So,I keep on asking; do you believe their confidence,trust and friendship diminished when their relationship changed?.
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One more time I hadn't explained myself well enough(my stupid English is always playing me some bad tricks¡ ^*) ).In this case,I was referring if you believe that the trust in each other they showed when they were simply friends-and now I'm speaking about friendship only,letting aside the possible attraction there could be...-.got a little diminished when their relationship became deeper.We have seen as someone as silent and lonely as Ennis managed to talk with Jack about facts of his life that never before had shared with anybody;how in the s.s. specially,we are told that they were happy to have found someone who they agreed with.In sum,how their friendship was based in a great trust in one another.
But we have seen also how,with the years passing,they hadn't trust enough as to be naked emotionally before the other in a full sense,and IMO there're several examples:from the very moment they said farewell after having come down from the mountain-an example of lack of communication...) to an inexistent talk about their real feelings and the way they could develop them in the latest years.It's not so illogical that two persons who "work" very well as a friends,lost a considerable part of this emotional intimacy when becoming a couple;several very different and sometimes mixed feelings enter into it them,be jealousy,be fear of losing the beloved person,be taking for granted that everything is said and done between them and that each one knows perfectly well what the other thinks,wishes or fears...So,I keep on asking; do you believe their confidence,trust and friendship diminished when their relationship changed?.
No, MPJ! It wasn't your English! I understood your question very well, but didn't think so deep as you did. Now I see your point much better cos you told me some examples, I didn't think about before.
Let me think now: I believe that their or confidence in each other didn't diminish. They were just protecting their relationship by hiding some things or avoiding to talk about some things. Cos their relationship become very deep, emotionally, sexually and they needed it, and protected it. Moreover cos their love never had a chance to glow in it's full. Never enough time, never enough :\'( So, they had to protect their fragile love (even if they didn't call it "love") and therefore had to make some compromise. That is how I see it. Those compromise didn't destroy anything, only was adjusted to preserve something more valuable. IMO
Maybe I am stupid, but I see their love as so beautiful that sometimes I tend to forget any bad side of their relationship. And I don't even consider myself a romantic... ???
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I am a hopeless romantic, & I think each of you has brought up good points in their relationship.
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No, MPJ! It wasn't your English! I understood your question very well, but didn't think so deep as you did. Now I see your point much better cos you told me some examples, I didn't think about before.
Let me think now: I believe that their or confidence in each other didn't diminish. They were just protecting their relationship by hiding some things or avoiding to talk about some things. Cos their relationship become very deep, emotionally, sexually and they needed it, and protected it. Moreover cos their love never had a chance to glow in it's full. Never enough time, never enough :\'( So, they had to protect their fragile love (even if they didn't call it "love") and therefore had to make some compromise. That is how I see it. Those compromise didn't destroy anything, only was adjusted to preserve something more valuable. IMO
Maybe I am stupid, but I see their love as so beautiful that sometimes I tend to forget any bad side of their relationship. And I don't even consider myself a romantic... ???
;D I'm a romantic too when it's necessary to be,but I have a rather practical sense of life.So,I don't agree in that to avoid speaking about some things was a real way of protecting their love.Society was against them and their love,not themselves ¡.And believe me,in these cases-well,almost in all of them...-the best way to act is forming a "common front" of the two persons,for becoming stronger against the situation that is threatening their relationship.
It's not so good,in exchange,not talking about their respective and/or common wishes or fears,not deciding what way to go together,not speaking to each other with their heart in their sleeve,in a word.Neither Ennis nor Jack had A REAL COMMUNICATION;only Jack was longing aloud for a "sweet life together" during half his life.But he never went to terms with his own ideas or projects to get it,sitting with Ennis to "heal" his fears and trying to find TOGETHER something similar to a solution...When everybody is your enemy,you don't need to be yours too;and with this lack of communication,Ennis and Jack weren't protecting their love.They were something very similar to their own enemy...
I'm sorry,because in this very moment all of you're going to put me in the "Brokie black list",but it's what I believe; our boys had a lot of trust and communication as a friends,but as a lovers... (t)
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^^) OK MPJ, come here!
;D
You're definitely right! They haven't done a good job hiding things from each other, but they wanted in a way to protect other one. And about their communication - they were uneducated, they lived in so backward rural places, they were men, Ennis spoke hardly a ten sentences a year... what do we expect? Friendship sometimes needs no words - No more beans! -I'm sick of beans! That's all. But to break the high walls that society put in front of them... it took much much more and unfortunately our dearest boys couldn't make it! It was too much for them.
Ennis was as stubborn as a bull! It wasn't easy to concur his cemented ideas about "normal life" and to break his fears. We always think of Jack as more open, but he has his faults too, and if I can judge anyone, I can't judge Jack, even it's true that he scr**ed up himself too.
They were protecting the idea of love they were pursuing, but of course it would've been much better if they stood together and fight the rest of the world together.
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I recall Jake explained that Ang told him Jack had more experience than Ennis.
Yes, I remember this...
Personally, I believe the initial attraction was sexual from Jack only. Ennis simply treated Jack as another man to work with. It was after the friendship developed through the months together, and then the bear incident that more affectionate feelings surfaced. Sex was only incidental after Jack initiated it FNIT and then it became a part of the love that never died in SNIT.
To me, Ennis was more about love. This explains why he never went with another man. Jack was partly about sex, always, so he needed it more, with Ennis or not. The intensity of love from Ennis also touched Jack in a way that he could never get from any other, so he could never quit.
The two fitted each other, Jack the initiator, Ennis the sustainer.
Neither would love, like this, always, without the other.
An interesting POV, lance. It of course contrasts with my own, but I will admit that if ever there was an sexual attraction on Ennis's part, it was greatly sublimated. I can see why you would look at it this way.
Jack was certainly more sexual. The sexual need was certainly greater with him. Did he ever have sex with Lureen in the middle and later years, I wonder?
But to counterbalance Jack's greater sexual need, I think he too had a greater capacity to show affection. In this sense, the sexual need is just a hint or manifestation of the great potential to love and be loved which he had inside
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One more time I hadn't explained myself well enough(my stupid English is always playing me some bad tricks¡ ^*) ).In this case,I was referring if you believe that the trust in each other they showed when they were simply friends-and now I'm speaking about friendship only,letting aside the possible attraction there could be...-.got a little diminished when their relationship became deeper.We have seen as someone as silent and lonely as Ennis managed to talk with Jack about facts of his life that never before had shared with anybody;how in the s.s. specially,we are told that they were happy to have found someone who they agreed with.In sum,how their friendship was based in a great trust in one another.
But we have seen also how,with the years passing,they hadn't trust enough as to be naked emotionally before the other in a full sense,and IMO there're several examples:from the very moment they said farewell after having come down from the mountain-an example of lack of communication...) to an inexistent talk about their real feelings and the way they could develop them in the latest years.It's not so illogical that two persons who "work" very well as a friends,lost a considerable part of this emotional intimacy when becoming a couple;several very different and sometimes mixed feelings enter into it them,be jealousy,be fear of losing the beloved person,be taking for granted that everything is said and done between them and that each one knows perfectly well what the other thinks,wishes or fears...So,I keep on asking; do you believe their confidence,trust and friendship diminished when their relationship changed?.
For me, I believe that they consistently held things back over the years, and what we see is their suffering because of it, and not because anything had diminished. I don't think they were ever tired of seeing each other over the years. But you can see growing frustration build up as the years passed. The frustration may have diminished confidence, but I think they intrinsically trusted one another, even though they read many things between the lines. I don't think the friendship was diminished. If anything, the need only increased with the passing of time. At least this is my opinion...
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I'm sorry,because in this very moment all of you're going to put me in the "Brokie black list",but it's what I believe; our boys had a lot of trust and communication as a friends,but as a lovers... (t)
Interesting distinction here.
Well, I think for example that Ennis probably suspected things early on with Jack, but kept the peace. I think this was because he intrinsically trusted the love that bound them, and didn't want to admit even to himself that Jack had to be confronted about them...
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An interesting POV, lance. It of course contrasts with my own, but I will admit that if ever there was an sexual attraction on Ennis's part, it was greatly sublimated. I can see why you would look at it this way.
Jack was certainly more sexual. The sexual need was certainly greater with him. Did he ever have sex with Lureen in the middle and later years, I wonder?
But to counterbalance Jack's greater sexual need, I think he too had a greater capacity to show affection. In this sense, the sexual need is just a hint or manifestation of the great potential to love and be loved which he had inside
I think that it would be too obvious if he hadn't have sex with his wife even it was rare. But I am almost sure that he had. Otherwise she would have become very suspicious about him. IMO
I would also agree with you on Jack's capability to love and to show affection. With Ennis those moments were so few, but Jack was an open book, you could read all his love from his eyes and deeds. Anyway if we ask ourselves one question that I had once found in another forum - who loved who more?, than my answer would be - the same!
The same quality and quantity of emotions, but shown in completely different, almost opposite way, the same as their characters.
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For me, I believe that they consistently held things back over the years, and what we see is their suffering because of it, and not because anything had diminished. I don't think they were ever tired of seeing each other over the years. But you can see growing frustration build up as the years passed. The frustration may have diminished confidence, but I think they intrinsically trusted one another, even though they read many things between the lines. I don't think the friendship was diminished. If anything, the need only increased with the passing of time. At least this is my opinion...
I am with you here! :)
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Interesting distinction here.
Well, I think for example that Ennis probably suspected things early on with Jack, but kept the peace. I think this was because he intrinsically trusted the love that bound them, and didn't want to admit even to himself that Jack had to be confronted about them...
I think so too! Many things between them remained unspoken, because they chose themselves not to speak, not because they didn't trust each other or didn't feel for each other.
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To me, Ennis was more about love. This explains why he never went with another man. Jack was partly about sex, always, so he needed it more, with Ennis or not. The intensity of love from Ennis also touched Jack in a way that he could never get from any other, so he could never quit.
Another thing came to my mind Lance! Even Jack was obviously fooling around during those 4 years, it was Ennis who said that he masturbate (there was another word, but I don't know which one) 100 times thinking of Jack! That sounds very very sexual to me!
The fact that he didn't go with another man is not only because of his pure love, but also because maybe he was afraid to do that. IMO
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I think that it would be too obvious if he hadn't have sex with his wife even it was rare. But I am almost sure that he had. Otherwise she would have become very suspicious about him. IMO
I would also agree with you on Jack's capability to love and to show affection. With Ennis those moments were so few, but Jack was an open book, you could read all his love from his eyes and deeds. Anyway if we ask ourselves one question that I had once found in another forum - who loved who more?, than my answer would be - the same!
The same quality and quantity of emotions, but shown in completely different, almost opposite way, the same as their characters.
As with Lureen: I think so too. I am sure that as in Ennis's case, the sex became less and less frequent as the years went by.
There are many scenes that show Jack's great capacity for affection. My favorites are of course at the end of the Earl and Rich story, and the way he responds to Ennis during the Dozy Embrace.
And BTW, in those rare moments such as the Dozy Embrace, we also see Ennis respond with great affection.
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I think so too! Many things between them remained unspoken, because they chose themselves not to speak, not because they didn't trust each other or didn't feel for each other.
I guess it is more lioke they didn't trust their ability to express things properly -- in the long run, this was very damaging, even if it worked in the short term...
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As with Lureen: I think so too. I am sure that as in Ennis's case, the sex became less and less frequent as the years went by.
There are many scenes that show Jack's great capacity for affection. My favorites are of course at the end of the Earl and Rich story, and the way he responds to Ennis during the Dozy Embrace.
And BTW, in those rare moments such as the Dozy Embrace, we also see Ennis respond with great affection.
Ennis said to Alma that he'd be more than happy to "leave her alone". OMG, how little he cared for intimacy with her...
The scene you mentioned is really touching for me, cos Jack had obviously gave a thought to idea of C&C operation before coming to Riverton, as an option if Ennis shows the same respond to his presence as before. After proposing the idea to Ennis in such a tender, yet trembling from failure way, he was shortly and almost rudely rejected. And it is just him, Jack who finds a strength to comfort Ennis, who indeed was stressed at that moment, but it was Jack who really needed the comfort. Unfortunately, none ever to comfort Jack! :(
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Ennis said to Alma that he'd be more than happy to "leave her alone". OMG, how little he cared for intimacy with her...
The scene you mentioned is really touching for me, cos Jack had obviously gave a thought to idea of C&C operation before coming to Riverton, as an option if Ennis shows the same respond to his presence as before. After proposing the idea to Ennis in such a tender, yet trembling from failure way, he was shortly and almost rudely rejected. And it is just him, Jack who finds a strength to comfort Ennis, who indeed was stressed at that moment, but it was Jack who really needed the comfort. Unfortunately, none ever to comfort Jack! :(
The question is that Jack has a great capacity of affection,and more still to show it in the right moment and in the right way.Whereas Ennis can suffer as much as Jack-or even more,because it's him who always must deny with words,even if he wouldn't deny with his heart,and this is a rather unpleasant situation for anybody...-,but his way of showing it is much more intimate,closed in himself.
So,I don't think that in that very moment Jack needed more comfort -and less still,THE comfort-than Ennis;he had lost a battle but he still didn't know if he had lost the war.But Ennis was fighting between his desires and his fears;his tears and his affirmation of"There's no reins on this one"are a good proof of this.And Jack realised this and understood him well enough as to give him the comfort he needed,as a way of telling to him:-"Don't worry,my love,I'll wait for you.I have enough by knowing you love me,and your words have showed it to me.I'll show you that you mustn't be afraid,as well as we are together..." I don't know if this makes sense again or not... :-\\
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The question is that Jack has a great capacity of affection,and more still to show it in the right moment and in the right way.Whereas Ennis can suffer as much as Jack-or even more,because it's him who always must deny with words,even if he wouldn't deny with his heart,and this is a rather unpleasant situation for anybody...-,but his way of showing it is much more intimate,closed in himself.
So,I don't think that in that very moment Jack needed more comfort -and less still,THE comfort-than Ennis;he had lost a battle but he still didn't know if he had lost the war.But Ennis was fighting between his desires and his fears;his tears and his affirmation of"There's no reins on this one"are a good proof of this.And Jack realised this and understood him well enough as to give him the comfort he needed,as a way of telling to him:-"Don't worry,my love,I'll wait for you.I have enough by knowing you love me,and your words have showed it to me.I'll show you that you mustn't be afraid,as well as we are together..." I don't know if this makes sense again or not... :-\\
MPJ, it makes a lot of sense and I agree with you. It was just the way you said it. On the other side - Jack has never ever received a comfort from anyone. He was always the one who had to understand, to sense others, to be a good man, a good friend, a good lover, son, husband or son in law... and who understood him? No one!! And it really breaks my heart. It's not fair to such a loving and dear person as Jack! :(
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MPJ, it makes a lot of sense and I agree with you. It was just the way you said it. On the other side - Jack has never ever received a comfort from anyone. He was always the one who had to understand, to sense others, to be a good man, a good friend, a good lover, son, husband or son in law... and who understood him? No one!! And it really breaks my heart. It's not fair to such a loving and dear person as Jack! :(
Yes,Jack is the same as me...unlucky us ¡ ;D Well,speaking seriously,I don't think that Jack necessarily has been the one who HAD to understand; as a matter of fact,a point arrived when he didn't seem to understand Ennis situation-much more important than a simple point of view...-in the confrontation scene.IMO,both of them completed and be lacked of something for the other,and understanding was precisely one of the aspects of their relationship when this duality can be more clearly seen,at least for me...
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Yes,Jack is the same as me...unlucky us ¡ ;D Well,speaking seriously,I don't think that Jack necessarily has been the one who HAD to understand; as a matter of fact,a point arrived when he didn't seem to understand Ennis situation-much more important than a simple point of view...-in the confrontation scene.IMO,both of them completed and be lacked of something for the other,and understanding was precisely one of the aspects of their relationship when this duality can be more clearly seen,at least for me...
FC is the only scene in the whole movie and the only point in Jack's life when he didn't pull back. In fact even then he understood, but he was hurt himself too much to put Ennis' fears in front of his needs. And his needs were always in hunger because of Ennis refusal to face the life. Poor Jack! :\'(
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Have been reading all these recent posts and they are all very heartfelt. I thought I would add something that recently occurred to me - maybe the combination of friendship, sex, and love, as factors in a relationship, can become so unusual, though they can be defined and explored, on some occasions they shoot a love right through the roof. Making ordinary descriptions no longer workable.
Sure, it's important - was Ennis gay? Sure, it's relevant that the Earl and Rich story caused a toxic background. And very much so, it's important, that pastoral isolation of 2 very lonely, inexperienced guys up on that mountain for the summer.
But it seems to me, at some point, the varying factors made this THEIR love, and therefore unusually resistant to our wanting them to fit OUR experiences and labels. In short, not a gay love story (although AP did set out to explore homophobia), and maybe not even a gender transcending love story, with a more universal theme. Just.....THEIR love story. No more, no less. Just a thought, was all.
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Tony...I think you've described more of what BBM means to me. It's all about Jack/Ennis w/ me, as I don't really have anything in my life to relate it to. It's THEIR specific love story that never leaves me, as I've never seen that much passion and love between 2 people...like you said "they blow the roof off".
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Thanks, Atalley. And I especially loved your taking the context of what I said to a love that "blew the roof off". I like that much better.
Yeah, everything's there, including what we've been pursuing on these threads. But I appreciate so very much your seeing some part of this as their's, their love, independent of everything else we, ourselves try to relate to. That may be, after all, what they would have said: this was their own and no other's.
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Ennis said to Alma that he'd be more than happy to "leave her alone". OMG, how little he cared for intimacy with her...
The scene you mentioned is really touching for me, cos Jack had obviously gave a thought to idea of C&C operation before coming to Riverton, as an option if Ennis shows the same respond to his presence as before. After proposing the idea to Ennis in such a tender, yet trembling from failure way, he was shortly and almost rudely rejected. And it is just him, Jack who finds a strength to comfort Ennis, who indeed was stressed at that moment, but it was Jack who really needed the comfort. Unfortunately, none ever to comfort Jack! :(
To a large extent, we indeed rarely see Jack being comforted -- perhaps that's the reason why he had a great capacity for affection: he understood the need.
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The question is that Jack has a great capacity of affection,and more still to show it in the right moment and in the right way.Whereas Ennis can suffer as much as Jack-or even more,because it's him who always must deny with words,even if he wouldn't deny with his heart,and this is a rather unpleasant situation for anybody...-,but his way of showing it is much more intimate,closed in himself.
So,I don't think that in that very moment Jack needed more comfort -and less still,THE comfort-than Ennis;he had lost a battle but he still didn't know if he had lost the war.But Ennis was fighting between his desires and his fears;his tears and his affirmation of"There's no reins on this one"are a good proof of this.And Jack realised this and understood him well enough as to give him the comfort he needed,as a way of telling to him:-"Don't worry,my love,I'll wait for you.I have enough by knowing you love me,and your words have showed it to me.I'll show you that you mustn't be afraid,as well as we are together..." I don't know if this makes sense again or not... :-\\
I do think that both of them needed as much comfort as the other. Alas, I am not so sure if Jack got the comfort he sorely needed. Perhaps in comforting Ennis, he comforted himself.
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Have been reading all these recent posts and they are all very heartfelt. I thought I would add something that recently occurred to me - maybe the combination of friendship, sex, and love, as factors in a relationship, can become so unusual, though they can be defined and explored, on some occasions they shoot a love right through the roof. Making ordinary descriptions no longer workable.
Sure, it's important - was Ennis gay? Sure, it's relevant that the Earl and Rich story caused a toxic background. And very much so, it's important, that pastoral isolation of 2 very lonely, inexperienced guys up on that mountain for the summer.
But it seems to me, at some point, the varying factors made this THEIR love, and therefore unusually resistant to our wanting them to fit OUR experiences and labels. In short, not a gay love story (although AP did set out to explore homophobia), and maybe not even a gender transcending love story, with a more universal theme. Just.....THEIR love story. No more, no less. Just a thought, was all.
In bare essence, it is a story about the love and friendship of two individuals. But because they are individuals like each of us, we tend to see ourselves and others we know and love through them. In this sense, it shouldn't surprise us that their love story becomes ours.
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To a large extent, we indeed rarely see Jack being comforted -- perhaps that's the reason why he had a great capacity for affection: he understood the need.
I believe that it should be the opposite. The person who never gets a compassion from others can not easily develop that feeling in himself. But Jack was Jack - the best he could be. It was in his nature to be so loving and caring person! That's why I adore this character so much!
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In bare essence, it is a story about the love and friendship of two individuals. But because they are individuals like each of us, we tend to see ourselves and others we know and love through them. In this sense, it shouldn't surprise us that their love story becomes ours.
It is amazing how this particular story found it's way to our hearts transmitting us emotionally to Brokeback, to Ennis and Jack's love story which so smoothly became ours! <^(
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I believe that it should be the opposite. The person who never gets a compassion from others can not easily develop that feeling in himself. But Jack was Jack - the best he could be. It was in his nature to be so loving and caring person! That's why I adore this character so much!
In my experience, when we are deprived of something, we tend to treasure it more. A person raised under difficult circumstances is more likely to appreciate the simple pleasures of life. A person who is unloved can be so loving because he knows how hard it feels to be unloved.
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In my experience, when we are deprived of something, we tend to treasure it more. A person raised under difficult circumstances is more likely to appreciate the simple pleasures of life. A person who is unloved can be so loving because he knows how hard it feels to be unloved.
AMEN TO THIS ¡¡¡ (:) (:) (:) And Jack's case was a real case of not being loved as he needed from his childhood.When things are so,a person only could react or copying what he has seen in his own case,or being extremely loving and caring.
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In my experience, when we are deprived of something, we tend to treasure it more. A person raised under difficult circumstances is more likely to appreciate the simple pleasures of life. A person who is unloved can be so loving because he knows how hard it feels to be unloved.
AMEN TO THIS ¡¡¡ (:) (:) (:) And Jack's case was a real case of not being loved as he needed from his childhood.When things are so,a person only could react or copying what he has seen in his own case,or being extremely loving and caring.
I have to disagree with both! ~)
If child received no love, he is not capable of loving. Child is like an empty bowl, in which we have to put the most precious ingredient of all - love! If child doesn't receive love, he/she would grow up to be a very empty person without a real capability to love. Children should learn how to love, and that's something common. Why children from broken and emotionless families without mother's or father's love raise their children in the same manner -cos they received no love.
But I believe that Jack had his Ma's love, and that's what made him a loving person. Without his Ma, he wouldn't be able to treat people so nicely. But the most of all, he was just that kind of person/character. Loving, tender, understanding, warm... Uh, did anyone notice how I like this guy? #)
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I have to disagree with both! ~)
If child received no love, he is not capable of loving. Child is like an empty bowl, in which we have to put the most precious ingredient of all - love! If child doesn't receive love, he/she would grow up to be a very empty person without a real capability to love. Children should learn how to love, and that's something common. Why children from broken and emotionless families without mother's or father's love raise their children in the same manner -cos they received no love.
But I believe that Jack had his Ma's love, and that's what made him a loving person. Without his Ma, he wouldn't be able to treat people so nicely. But the most of all, he was just that kind of person/character. Loving, tender, understanding, warm... Uh, did anyone notice how I like this guy? #)
I agree with you here Loreen. Jack's Ma had a profound impact on Jack, that's for sure.
However, I also think children, although as you described (learn from their parents), have a remarkable resilience and are often blessed to find love when it has been denied in the home, from their parents. Many children from broken abusive homes find love else where and grow up to be loving tender gentle people who nurture their own children with great love. We are not, in my humble opinion, simply an empty bowl that regurgitates what has been poured into it. We are also complex and beautiful souls with gifts from the creator, and often, we resonate with the serendipitous encounter, with those who can share the same love that is already in us.
I believe that is the case between Ennis and Jack. Their love resonated across the boundaries and fears.
I believe that is the case with us brokies and the movie. We each resonate with the movie in our own frequency or frequencies.
Brokeback Mountain is a great movie, in my humble opinion, precisely because it is rich with many frequencies and resonates with a diverse audience.
It calls us to respond with love. And even those among us who never experienced the love as Ennis and Jack did, could understand and feel the substance of their eternal love. That is also the great performance between Heath and Jake.
In my opinion.
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I agree with you here Loreen. Jack's Ma had a profound impact on Jack, that's for sure.
However, I also think children, although as you described (learn from their parents), have a remarkable resilience and are often blessed to find love when it has been denied in the home, from their parents. Many children from broken abusive homes find love else where and grow up to be loving tender gentle people who nurture their own children with great love. We are not, in my humble opinion, simply an empty bowl that regurgitates what has been poured into it. We are also complex and beautiful souls with gifts from the creator, and often, we resonate with the serendipitous encounter, with those who can share the same love that is already in us.
I believe that is the case between Ennis and Jack. Their love resonated across the boundaries and fears.
I believe that is the case with us brokies and the movie. We each resonate with the movie in our own frequency or frequencies.
Brokeback Mountain is a great movie, in my humble opinion, precisely because it is rich with many frequencies and resonates with a diverse audience.
It calls us to respond with love. And even those among us who never experienced the love as Ennis and Jack did, could understand and feel the substance of their eternal love. That is also the great performance between Heath and Jake.
In my opinion.
Sure, child can find so needed love somewhere else if not at home, but child needs love like a flower needs water. It can not live without it.
Great post, Lance! :^^)
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I have to disagree with both! ~)
If child received no love, he is not capable of loving. Child is like an empty bowl, in which we have to put the most precious ingredient of all - love! If child doesn't receive love, he/she would grow up to be a very empty person without a real capability to love. Children should learn how to love, and that's something common. Why children from broken and emotionless families without mother's or father's love raise their children in the same manner -cos they received no love.
But I believe that Jack had his Ma's love, and that's what made him a loving person. Without his Ma, he wouldn't be able to treat people so nicely. But the most of all, he was just that kind of person/character. Loving, tender, understanding, warm... Uh, did anyone notice how I like this guy? #)
In reality, it is much more complicated than what we make it out to be. But to be sure, a child raised up without love does not invariably develop into a monster. That's because every person naturally needs to love and be loved. We are not taught how to love in schools or universities. Even a child whose mother and father died early on and was brought up in a loveless orphanage will develop friendships and bonds with people simply because the intrinsic need is there in human nature itself.
Love is not rooted in conditioning, like a dog who is taught to salivate at the sound of a bell. It is part of the human soul, and it cannot be suppressed. Even the most horrific monsters knew how it was to love and be loved. And that love is part of the dignity of ALL human life.
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In reality, it is much more complicated than what we make it out to be. But to be sure, a child raised up without love does not invariably develop into a monster. That's because every person naturally needs to love and be loved. We are not taught how to love in schools or universities. Even a child whose mother and father died early on and was brought up in a loveless orphanage will develop friendships and bonds with people simply because the intrinsic need is there in human nature itself.
Love is not rooted in conditioning, like a dog who is taught to salivate at the sound of a bell. It is part of the human soul, and it cannot be suppressed. Even the most horrific monsters knew how it was to love and be loved. And that love is part of the dignity of ALL human life.
This matter is very deep and very wide to explain in a few posts. I believe that love is a biggest necessity in human's life, but it is only after we receive it, we are able to give it to the others. Everyone is searching for love in every shape of it - friendship, parental, romantic love, but the roots are in receiving the first seed of love from (most commonly but not necessary) parents. And I don't think that a children without parents would become monsters, surely they will try to develop a form of love with other misfortune children, but somewhere, somehow, someone should show them what love is.
I think that Jack's love seed was Mrs. Twist <^(. even in the shadow of an old bully! ^*)
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This matter is very deep and very wide to explain in a few posts. I believe that love is a biggest necessity in human's life, but it is only after we receive it, we are able to give it to the others. Everyone is searching for love in every shape of it - friendship, parental, romantic love, but the roots are in receiving the first seed of love from (most commonly but not necessary) parents. And I don't think that a children without parents would become monsters, surely they will try to develop a form of love with other misfortune children, but somewhere, somehow, someone should show them what love is.
I think that Jack's love seed was Mrs. Twist <^(. even in the shadow of an old bully! ^*)
From what little see see/hear of her from the movie, she is without question a truly loving soul. I am sure that she was a decisive influence in Jack's life.
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In reality, it is much more complicated than what we make it out to be. But to be sure, a child raised up without love does not invariably develop into a monster. That's because every person naturally needs to love and be loved. We are not taught how to love in schools or universities. Even a child whose mother and father died early on and was brought up in a loveless orphanage will develop friendships and bonds with people simply because the intrinsic need is there in human nature itself.
Love is not rooted in conditioning, like a dog who is taught to salivate at the sound of a bell. It is part of the human soul, and it cannot be suppressed. Even the most horrific monsters knew how it was to love and be loved. And that love is part of the dignity of ALL human life.
Perhaps the greatest teachers are those who impact love to their students. Administrators and school trustees often hide behind a facade of professional decorum, of dispassionate intelligence, and forget what you put so beautifully, that love is part of the dignity of all human life. Schools and colleges need love as much as students need it. Great schools and great teachers are those who can wisely guide their students with love in mind first and foremost, and the curriculum follows as a framework, a path, not as a destination.
Love is the destination of all human activities.
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Perhaps the greatest teachers are those who impact love to their students. Administrators and school trustees often hide behind a facade of professional decorum, of dispassionate intelligence, and forget what you put so beautifully, that love is part of the dignity of all human life. Schools and colleges need love as much as students need it. Great schools and great teachers are those who can wisely guide their students with love in mind first and foremost, and the curriculum follows as a framework, a path, not as a destination.
Love is the destination of all human activities.
Not only the destination, but the source and the way of obtaining that destination!
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Perhaps the greatest teachers are those who impact love to their students. Administrators and school trustees often hide behind a facade of professional decorum, of dispassionate intelligence, and forget what you put so beautifully, that love is part of the dignity of all human life. Schools and colleges need love as much as students need it. Great schools and great teachers are those who can wisely guide their students with love in mind first and foremost, and the curriculum follows as a framework, a path, not as a destination.
Love is the destination of all human activities.
Not only the destination, but the source and the way of obtaining that destination!
I agree. I think that by and large, the demonstration of love can sometimes be so nuanced. The point about teachers and universities is so true. Of course, the supression of any overt demonstration in favor of the look or appearance of distant professionalism is rooted by fear that bounderies could be crossed to the detriment of the younger and less experienced students.
In the case of Ennis and Jack, the demonstration of love was sometimes problematic, and fear was also a motivating factor in the supression of much of it.
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I agree. I think that by and large, the demonstration of love can sometimes be so nuanced. The point about teachers and universities is so true. Of course, the supression of any overt demonstration in favor of the look or appearance of distant professionalism is rooted by fear that bounderies could be crossed to the detriment of the younger and less experienced students.
In the case of Ennis and Jack, the demonstration of love was sometimes problematic, and fear was also a motivating factor in the supression of much of it.
Yes, and Ennis was in fear from the society's reaction, and Jack was in fear of Ennis' reaction! :(
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Yes, and Ennis was in fear from the society's reaction, and Jack was in fear of Ennis' reaction! :(
A very good distinction. I sometimes feel that jack could have gotten much further had he been more insistent and less taken aback by Ennis's rebuffs.
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A very good distinction. I sometimes feel that jack could have gotten much further had he been more insistent and less taken aback by Ennis's rebuffs.
Absolutely ¡ But he was afraid of putting Ennis against the ropes too many times and that it could mean him run away.Then he has the best ally of Ennis fears and denials,of course against himself... :\'(
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Absolutely ¡ But he was afraid of putting Ennis against the ropes too many times and that it could mean him run away.Then he has the best ally of Ennis fears and denials,of course against himself... :\'(
Both of them made many mistakes and while Ennis' were more obvious, Jack had his mistakes too. He was afraid to be rejected, cos he loved Ennis so much, that he lost too many chances during years. :(
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Both of them made many mistakes and while Ennis' were more obvious, Jack had his mistakes too. He was afraid to be rejected, cos he loved Ennis so much, that he lost too many chances during years. :(
Interesting discussion going on. I am not sure if Jack is afraid of rejection. He gets rejected time and again with other men, with sales pitch that don't work, with dreams that never go anywhere.
I think Jack's fear is deeper than rejection because he knows that Ennis already accepted him as he is.
Jack's fear, in my opinion is loss. He is afraid of losing Ennis altogether. He can't never quit Ennis because he never wants to lose Ennis. That's the love that they shared. Ennis and Jack loved each other so much, that either one of them losing the other is unimaginable and deeply painful. It's why they were miserable apart, ecstatic together. It is why Ennis suffered so after Jack died, and so comforted after the two shirts. They were finally together again.
Jack knew and understood their two souls as one; Ennis felt it and kept it at a distance, until too late. Then all he had were memories and dreams. In a way, it speaks to the depth and greatness of their love, that even death could not separate the bond between them. Even through death, their love binds Ennis to the memories and dreams that were Jack. In a sense, Jack's fear was unfounded because, if he had enough faith in the love, he would have known that it would not fail, that he would never lose Ennis.
Both of them had too much fears separately, and not enough faith in the love that they both shared in abundance.
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I agree. I think that by and large, the demonstration of love can sometimes be so nuanced. The point about teachers and universities is so true. Of course, the supression of any overt demonstration in favor of the look or appearance of distant professionalism is rooted by fear that bounderies could be crossed to the detriment of the younger and less experienced students.
In the case of Ennis and Jack, the demonstration of love was sometimes problematic, and fear was also a motivating factor in the supression of much of it.
I think the sterile environment is not for the benefit of students but more for the protection of immature teachers who might cross the line with their students blurring the line between love and sex. Students follow the lead of their teachers, and no matter what wild crushes students have on their teachers, as long as teachers maintain the proper relationship, it is natural and normal for students to express affection for their role models.
The problem is caused by the few individuals who caused harm to their students, and their profession. Great teachers find ways around those constraints and inspire their students with love and affection nonetheless.
Love can be expressed in myriad ways, not just through touching and sex. The Hollywood versions of love distorted our perception and understanding of true love. It is why, ironically, movies such as Titanic and Brokeback Mountain, among others, have made such deep impact. They remind us true love is more than just sex.
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Interesting discussion going on. I am not sure if Jack is afraid of rejection. He gets rejected time and again with other men, with sales pitch that don't work, with dreams that never go anywhere.
I think Jack's fear is deeper than rejection because he knows that Ennis already accepted him as he is.
Jack's fear, in my opinion is loss. He is afraid of losing Ennis altogether. He can't never quit Ennis because he never wants to lose Ennis. That's the love that they shared. Ennis and Jack loved each other so much, that either one of them losing the other is unimaginable and deeply painful. It's why they were miserable apart, ecstatic together. It is why Ennis suffered so after Jack died, and so comforted after the two shirts. They were finally together again.
Jack knew and understood their two souls as one; Ennis felt it and kept it at a distance, until too late. Then all he had were memories and dreams. In a way, it speaks to the depth and greatness of their love, that even death could not separate the bond between them. Even through death, their love binds Ennis to the memories and dreams that were Jack. In a sense, Jack's fear was unfounded because, if he had enough faith in the love, he would have known that it would not fail, that he would never lose Ennis.
Both of them had too much fears separately, and not enough faith in the love that they both shared in abundance.
Lovely post Lance!
You explained much better what I was thinking. I said that Jack was afraid of Ennis' rejection, and I know that even Ennis had rejected him before. So I was thinking of the final refusal, of slipping away cos of his fears.
Sure, you're right that Jack was wrong, but his need for Ennis was so strong that he couldn't calculate on this one, he could not try to make Ennis feel rejected and left alone. He always gave his best and the most that he could. But each Ennis' morose face, or stubborn comment made him shiver. I so feel for Jack in those unpleasant situation.
OT: Each time I see your new avatar, I shiver too! :\'(
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I think the sterile environment is not for the benefit of students but more for the protection of immature teachers who might cross the line with their students blurring the line between love and sex. Students follow the lead of their teachers, and no matter what wild crushes students have on their teachers, as long as teachers maintain the proper relationship, it is natural and normal for students to express affection for their role models.
The problem is caused by the few individuals who caused harm to their students, and their profession. Great teachers find ways around those constraints and inspire their students with love and affection nonetheless.
Again: well stated. You echo the point of Socrates here...
Love can be expressed in myriad ways, not just through touching and sex. The Hollywood versions of love distorted our perception and understanding of true love. It is why, ironically, movies such as Titanic and Brokeback Mountain, among others, have made such deep impact. They remind us true love is more than just sex.
I personally think that in BBM, it is first and foremost about the personal connection between the two of them. It encompasses friendship, sex, and much much more... The word "affinity" comes close. It is a term that goes beyond a romantic stereotype.
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Interesting discussion going on. I am not sure if Jack is afraid of rejection. He gets rejected time and again with other men, with sales pitch that don't work, with dreams that never go anywhere.
I think Jack's fear is deeper than rejection because he knows that Ennis already accepted him as he is.
Jack's fear, in my opinion is loss. He is afraid of losing Ennis altogether. He can't never quit Ennis because he never wants to lose Ennis. That's the love that they shared. Ennis and Jack loved each other so much, that either one of them losing the other is unimaginable and deeply painful. It's why they were miserable apart, ecstatic together. It is why Ennis suffered so after Jack died, and so comforted after the two shirts. They were finally together again.
Jack knew and understood their two souls as one; Ennis felt it and kept it at a distance, until too late. Then all he had were memories and dreams. In a way, it speaks to the depth and greatness of their love, that even death could not separate the bond between them. Even through death, their love binds Ennis to the memories and dreams that were Jack. In a sense, Jack's fear was unfounded because, if he had enough faith in the love, he would have known that it would not fail, that he would never lose Ennis.
Both of them had too much fears separately, and not enough faith in the love that they both shared in abundance.
I've been busy lately, but thought that this was worth repeating. :clap: I've been missin' ole Brokeback.
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I've been busy lately, but thought that this was worth repeating. :clap: I've been missin' ole Brokeback.
OT: you'll always have a little home-away-from-home right here, atalley. :)