Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: manhattangirl on Jun 22, 2008, 08:46 AM
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Tony's as always had to "go there", and the the "there" is the layers of Jack Twist. If we took Ennis out of equation for a little while. Who was Jack?
A boy longing for his abusive father approval, but knowing he would never please the old man, but continue to try. Jack never cut the ties of childhood, his mother preserved it, by keeping his room the way it was when he was a boy. "he seem to appreciate that". Where Ennis feared his father, Jack longed for his.
No matter how Jack tried he couldn't get that validation of his manhood from either his father, or LD. The two Stud Ducks, put him down and kept him there. I've always wondered is this the reason why Jack went to men, to get some kind validation by giving himself to them, looking for some sort of father figure to take him under his wing, and guide him into manhood, (Please don't come after me with torches ablazing, and a hanging rope, just a thought).
Jack struggle was finding self respect, to be respected. He wanted to be Mr. Jack Twist, but ended up being "Rodeo, the pissant Combine Saleman". In Texas, thats all he was. His wife instead of supporting him resigned herself to idea he was just that. Their marriage a mystery, did she know, did she suspect, or simply she married down instead of up, and it was too late to do anything about. It was never so clear, as to Jack standing, when his son was born, treated no better that the help, he perform his husbandly duties, got Lureen pregnant and had a son, but reminded no better than a house worker.
Then there was Ennis, someone who gave him respect, who look at him as a man equal to him. He was Jack f#@king Twist, and Ennis accepted him as his friend, and his lover.
I'm just wondering from what we know, is Jack one dimensional, or just as complex as Ennis. what do you think really made him tick, what went on in his life that made him the man he was.
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Very good topic MG!!! :clap: :clap:
I don't know what to say. Too many complicate thoughts in my mind to express them in English. :-\\ :-\\
I just wanted to say that I doubt that anyone is gonna go after you with a hanging rope because I read here, somewhere, that some brokies thought that Jack sought in Ennis the validation he didn't got from his father. Ennis gave him respect and friendship...but in some way, rejecting that sweet life, Ennis was rejecting Jack like his father did, and saying that Jack was a fool and a crazy dreamer (the river scene talking about Texas) Ennis was saying the same things that his father, that Jack was living in the clouds....always dreaming stupid things....And maybe Jack wanted to prove Ennis that his dreams could be a real thing; maybe he wanted to prove his father that he could do it; maybe he wanted to prove to himself that he was worth the trouble. As Zepth said once, Jack wants the daily partnership he's seen his parents have - he tries to be "loved." Jack knows he's got plenty of what he needs coming from Ennis, but he desperately needs it to be identified as "love", to reassure himself of the worth his father stole from him as a child.
Someone said that Ennis and Jack were in some way traumatized because of their relation with their fathers, and everything they did in their lives had something to do with that. They live in order to prove things to their fathers or in order to hide from their fathers. Their relationship was conditioned by the conception they had about their fathers. Zepth said too that the real tragedy here is that both our boys have the love they need and want, but neither gets it that that's what they've got: and so it is, their own insecurities, beaten and shocked into them in childhood, which rule and destroy their lives.
I don't know well....That's what I read here at Ennisjack. I'll try to find that. But I can tell you that yes, Jack is as complex as Ennis. That's for sure. ^f^
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This is a great topic, MG, but it's gonna be tough, because every time we go to Jack, we find the work is harder - untangling the man. The SS and film didn't leave as much to work with as with Ennis.
My own sense of Jack is that he was a threat to the existing tilt, in the West, at that time, as to male posing. By "posing", I mean what was expected of a male as far as social behavior. Examples of this are usually geographical, so, will try to point there.
Decades ago, the neighborhoods of Brooklyn and the Bronx produced a unique kind of guy, friendly, wisecracking, good-natured. The ethnic groups were mostly Italian, with some Jewish and Irish. In the South, the typical male was shy/friendly, easily vulnerable to anyone who seemed honest.
Midwesterners were casual and without any real markings. Western guys held back, as if talking was criminally un-male. A lot of WWII war movies made a big deal of the social explosions when all these groups were drafted and thrown in together. Look those movies over again and you'll find that as a major theme - the different types of men, fighting together, from different regions.
Jack would never have made it in Brooklyn- they would have rolled him. But he had their liveliness and that just didn't fit in with the majority mode in the West. Which was, walk slow, don't smile too much, and stick to those you've known for a while.
Where did that liveliness come from? That loving heart? Not many clues but a few point to his parents letting him grow up wild like a weed. His Dad didn't encourage him to follow in his footsteps and seems to have become withdrawn and moody, early on. His Mom didn't lay down any rules (she didn't force him to follow her religious faith- he barely knew what Pentecostal was). There may have been a stand-off between his Mom and Dad, that prevented a joint program for raising Jack Twist. So he grew up on his own, definitely not wanting to be deadened, like his father.
Well, MG, that's a start from one person. This is an excellent topic and I hope it weaves all over the place. The more territory covered, the better. IMO.
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No matter how Jack tried he couldn't get that validation of his manhood from either his father, or LD. The two Stud Ducks, put him down and kept him there. I've always wondered is this the reason why Jack went to men, to get some kind validation by giving himself to them, looking for some sort of father figure to take him under his wing, and guide him into manhood, (Please don't come after me with torches ablazing, and a hanging rope, just a thought).
Please forgive my being a "frequent flier" here - I love the topic. Anyway, as far as Jack craving validation of his manhood, am not so sure of that. He seemed very comfortable with himself there. Arguably, his lack of guilt over same-gender sex puts Jack Twist into an advanced category of males, who do not let other males define their manhood. Both gay and straight men, although in different ways, are victims of imposed group definitions. Jack didn't have any interest in this at all. He was very casually and naturally manly, knew enough to be discreet, but otherwise didn't give a damn on others defining his maleness or masculinity. Maybe he could enjoy being the bottom guy, for this very reason- it had no derogatory implications that would bruise his ego.
And maybe all of this freedom derived from seeing what definitions had done to his father-turned him into a lonely old man sustained only by a patient wife.
But Jack, while not needing validation of his manhood, or masculinity, did need validation of his being a person, or of his self. And he wasn't getting much of that, except from Ennis.
So, just that fine point. A lot of guys are roaming around selling their souls just so the other guys will validate their maleness or masculinity. That's part of what's going on in street gangs. Jack didn't need validation he was a man, he just needed acceptance (or validation) of his over-all self. That's what I see, anyway. I also see him as far more free than most gay and straight men. He would not suffer himself to be defined.
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Please forgive my being a "frequent flier" here - I love the topic. Anyway, as far as Jack craving validation of his manhood, am not so sure of that. He seemed very comfortable with himself there. Arguably, his lack of guilt over same-gender sex puts Jack Twist into an advanced category of males, who do not let other males define their manhood. Both gay and straight men, although in different ways, are victims of imposed group definitions. Jack didn't have any interest in this at all. He was very casually and naturally manly, knew enough to be discreet, but otherwise didn't give a damn on others defining his maleness or masculinity. Maybe he could enjoy being the bottom guy, for this very reason- it had no derogatory implications that would bruise his ego.
And maybe all of this freedom derived from seeing what definitions had done to his father-turned him into a lonely old man sustained only by a patient wife.
But Jack, while not needing validation of his manhood, or masculinity, did need validation of his being a person, or of his self. And he wasn't getting much of that, except from Ennis.
So, just that fine point. A lot of guys are roaming around selling their souls just so the other guys will validate their maleness or masculinity. That's part of what's going on in street gangs. Jack didn't need validation he was a man, he just needed acceptance (or validation) of his over-all self. That's what I see, anyway. I also see him as far more free than most gay and straight men. He would not suffer himself to be defined.
I understand what you're saying, but I am talking about Jack the man first, It just seem to me, that from his father to LD, to the two old guys who dubbed him pissant, to even the rodeo clown, his manhood was challenged. Jack always seem to me, was considered less than. You see it in Lureen she didn't at no time defended her husband, or seem too interested in him at all. Was she influence by the other men around her, her father, even the two men sitting in her office labeling her husband. Texas, in those scenes seems to be full of strutting roosters.
I think that's was why he sought out Ennis again, and you're right, Ennis did accept Jack as the total human being, but he responded and respected him as man first, and never, never questioned that fact.
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Tony's as always had to "go there", and the the "there" is the layers of Jack Twist. If we took Ennis out of equation for a little while. Who was Jack?
A boy longing for his abusive father approval, but knowing he would never please the old man, but continue to try. Jack never cut the ties of childhood, his mother preserved it, by keeping his room the way it was when he was a boy. "he seem to appreciate that". Where Ennis feared his father, Jack longed for his.
No matter how Jack tried he couldn't get that validation of his manhood from either his father, or LD. The two Stud Ducks, put him down and kept him there. I've always wondered is this the reason why Jack went to men, to get some kind validation by giving himself to them, looking for some sort of father figure to take him under his wing, and guide him into manhood, (Please don't come after me with torches ablazing, and a hanging rope, just a thought).
Jack struggle was finding self respect, to be respected. He wanted to be Mr. Jack Twist, but ended up being "Rodeo, the pissant Combine Saleman". In Texas, thats all he was. His wife instead of supporting him resigned herself to idea he was just that. Their marriage a mystery, did she know, did she suspect, or simply she married down instead of up, and it was too late to do anything about. It was never so clear, as to Jack standing, when his son was born, treated no better that the help, he perform his husbandly duties, got Lureen pregnant and had a son, but reminded no better than a house worker.
Then there was Ennis, someone who gave him respect, who look at him as a man equal to him. He was Jack f#@king Twist, and Ennis accepted him as his friend, and his lover.
I'm just wondering from what we know, is Jack one dimensional, or just as complex as Ennis. what do you think really made him tick, what went on in his life that made him the man he was.
I think Jack is more mysterious than Ennis. In the ss, he is a very shadowy figure (as I have said in the past) and only in the remembrance of the dozy embrace do we see him in some sort of revealing light. In the movie, the characterization is certainly NOT one dimensional. I think the element of combined vulnerability and the will to fight makes the characterization much more complex than in the short story, IMO. I do agree with you in that validation and the desire to find respect drives Jack throughout his life -- much more than the stoic Ennis, to be sure. Perhaps some of us would think he aimed to high. It is for this chasing after windmills that we call him The Dreamer.
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I think Jack is more mysterious than Ennis. In the ss, he is a very shadowy figure (as I have said in the past) and only in the remembrance of the dozy embrace do we see him in some sort of revealing light. In the movie, the characterization is certainly NOT one dimensional. I think the element of combined vulnerability and the will to fight makes the characterization much more complex than in the short story, IMO.
Hi, Thomas - am not sure the words "mysterious" and "shadowy" are good fits, unless we look at the SS presenting Jack as just a foil for Ennis, and then, maybe so. IMO, the real Jack Twist was never fully developed by AP, and was born only of her hints and fleshed out by the screenplay writers, Ang Lee, and, of course, the greatly under-estimated contribution of Jake Gyllenhaal. They fleshed the character out to an enduring reality.
It may be the story is about Ennis. After all, with only rare exceptions (the trip to Mexico, the Thanksgiving dinner), Jack doesn't even exist except when he is with Ennis. We do know how Ennis lived, in between meetings with Jack. We know very little about how Jack lived. In a lot of ways, Ennis is more real, with internal tensions, and Jack more mythical - the dreamy lover, no further complexities.
For me that falls apart, the one-dimensional Jack, if and only if we take AP at her word (accidentally or deliberately given) that the description of the Dozy Embrace was Jack's perception of the event and not necessarily the reality. And I tried to develop that, before, that there was plenty of evidence he got it wrong and we failed to challenge that. If we DO challenge his perception of what that was, then we find a Jack with as many wrong ideas, fears, and defense mechanisms, as Ennis. We find a Jack that got Ennis right so very many times, but got him wrong as to how deeply he, Jack was loved, for himself.
Am trying to be careful on this thread, because we were given so little to work with by the creators of BBM. But I think it's there, enough solid ground, to explore a Jack somewhat different from our own first version - just a dreamy lover.
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Where Ennis feared his father, Jack longed for his.
Wonderful thoughts. I always thought Jake gave Jack more "flesh" than AP did :) But that is the drawback of a shortstory vs. a novel.
But this one line you wrote cought me. I am a woman, I have a good, loving and generous father that have always supported me, it is hard to imagine what Jack was going through because his was so different from mine.
But I think that the difference between Ennis and Jack here is that even though Ennis' dad was hardly any better, he might not have physically abused Ennis but the mental abuse was there in showing the boys the dead man and his whole idea about what had happened there. BUT, Ennis wasn't alone. Jack was. Jacks mum was every bit as subdued by Twist Snr as Jack was. Ennis' mum we don't know. But Ennis had a brother and a sister. Most importantly he had a older brother. Another "man" he could relate to.
I think this made alot of difference in how the two behaved like fathers as well. Ennis was more capable of loving his own daughters because he had been loved in some way. Jack had no idea how to do it.... So he didn't really want to be a dad and I am sure he didn't abuse his son, I am sure he loved him in his own way he just didn't know how to love him properly.
I think that Jake gave Jack a sadness we don't really see in the ss. He is what we call a Sunflower child. He had been brought up in an abusive environment but he still had the ability to want to love others. He tries, with Ennis, to go after a life he haven't had but still he isn't afraid to ASK Ennis for it :)
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Wonderful thoughts. I always thought Jake gave Jack more "flesh" than AP did :) But that is the drawback of a shortstory vs. a novel.
But this one line you wrote cought me. I am a woman, I have a good, loving and generous father that have always supported me, it is hard to imagine what Jack was going through because his was so different from mine.
But I think that the difference between Ennis and Jack here is that even though Ennis' dad was hardly any better, he might not have physically abused Ennis but the mental abuse was there in showing the boys the dead man and his whole idea about what had happened there. BUT, Ennis wasn't alone. Jack was. Jacks mum was every bit as subdued by Twist Snr as Jack was. Ennis' mum we don't know. But Ennis had a brother and a sister. Most importantly he had a older brother. Another "man" he could relate to.
I think this made alot of difference in how the two behaved like fathers as well. Ennis was more capable of loving his own daughters because he had been loved in some way. Jack had no idea how to do it.... So he didn't really want to be a dad and I am sure he didn't abuse his son, I am sure he loved him in his own way he just didn't know how to love him properly.
I think that Jake gave Jack a sadness we don't really see in the ss. He is what we call a Sunflower child. He had been brought up in an abusive environment but he still had the ability to want to love others. He tries, with Ennis, to go after a life he haven't had but still he isn't afraid to ASK Ennis for it :)
Oh my, Esme!! How beautiful post!! <^( <^( I agree with everything you said!!! ^f^
I think Jack is more mysterious than Ennis. In the ss, he is a very shadowy figure (as I have said in the past) and only in the remembrance of the dozy embrace do we see him in some sort of revealing light. In the movie, the characterization is certainly NOT one dimensional. I think the element of combined vulnerability and the will to fight makes the characterization much more complex than in the short story, IMO. I do agree with you in that validation and the desire to find respect drives Jack throughout his life -- much more than the stoic Ennis, to be sure. Perhaps some of us would think he aimed to high. It is for this chasing after windmills that we call him The Dreamer.
Yeah, Thomas, Jack is mysterious in the SS. We saw him needed sex, more than Ennis. We knew that he had sex with many guys. We knew that the was with Randall....But then AP punched us with that beautiful part about the DE and we found that the most important thing for Jack was not have sex with Ennis!!! His favorite memory was a sexless one!!!
Then we knew that he loved Ennis, but maybe it was more friendship with sex than anything else...But once again AP and Jack shot our hearts and we found that Jack kept those shirts for 20 years, and his favorite place was BBM. I think that Jack had in his heart and in his mind a lot of things nobody got to see or understand. I think he was a deep ocean like all human beings.
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Wonderful thoughts. I always thought Jake gave Jack more "flesh" than AP did :) But that is the drawback of a shortstory vs. a novel.
But this one line you wrote cought me. I am a woman, I have a good, loving and generous father that have always supported me, it is hard to imagine what Jack was going through because his was so different from mine.
But I think that the difference between Ennis and Jack here is that even though Ennis' dad was hardly any better, he might not have physically abused Ennis but the mental abuse was there in showing the boys the dead man and his whole idea about what had happened there. BUT, Ennis wasn't alone. Jack was. Jacks mum was every bit as subdued by Twist Snr as Jack was. Ennis' mum we don't know. But Ennis had a brother and a sister. Most importantly he had a older brother. Another "man" he could relate to.
I think this made alot of difference in how the two behaved like fathers as well. Ennis was more capable of loving his own daughters because he had been loved in some way. Jack had no idea how to do it.... So he didn't really want to be a dad and I am sure he didn't abuse his son, I am sure he loved him in his own way he just didn't know how to love him properly.
I think that Jake gave Jack a sadness we don't really see in the ss. He is what we call a Sunflower child. He had been brought up in an abusive environment but he still had the ability to want to love others. He tries, with Ennis, to go after a life he haven't had but still he isn't afraid to ASK Ennis for it :)
I love this post. Yes, Ennis all of what you've said. But, Jack did have his mother, and she didn't always stand on the sideline, she did proctect as best she could her son, she took him to church with her, was it to get religion in him, or to keep him close to her, and away from his father, mothers do have a tendency to do that to their children, keep them out of harms way. Also there evidence she was the keeper of his secrets, and what was his important to him. I doubt she would ever let that old man change anything in Jack's room, which could be the trade off concerning Jack's ashes.
Jack spent a lot of time talking about his old man. How he couldn't please him, but still tried in someway. Jack talked about how he would return dry up ranch, and whip it back into shape. There was deep need for acceptance Jack needed from his father.
As far as his relationship with his son, he was concerned, he expressed worry about his schooling, he must have been a pain in the neck as far as little bobby teacher was concern, he tried to get Lureen involved, if she could get away from that adding machine. I think Jack was probably a doting father. Which may not jive with him wanting to leave and live a life with Ennis. How could a father want to leave his son? I've ask myself this question. Maybe he thought leaving wouldn't make much of difference, his son would do OK, and very little resistance would be given. But he stayed, not out fatherly concern, because Ennis wanted that way. Jack for all its worth really didn't have a home, only the one in his mind, the home he wanted so much, a ranch of his own and Ennis.
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Hi, Thomas - am not sure the words "mysterious" and "shadowy" are good fits, unless we look at the SS presenting Jack as just a foil for Ennis, and then, maybe so. IMO, the real Jack Twist was never fully developed by AP, and was born only of her hints and fleshed out by the screenplay writers, Ang Lee, and, of course, the greatly under-estimated contribution of Jake Gyllenhaal. They fleshed the character out to an enduring reality.
It may be the story is about Ennis. After all, with only rare exceptions (the trip to Mexico, the Thanksgiving dinner), Jack doesn't even exist except when he is with Ennis. We do know how Ennis lived, in between meetings with Jack. We know very little about how Jack lived. In a lot of ways, Ennis is more real, with internal tensions, and Jack more mythical - the dreamy lover, no further complexities.
For me that falls apart, the one-dimensional Jack, if and only if we take AP at her word (accidentally or deliberately given) that the description of the Dozy Embrace was Jack's perception of the event and not necessarily the reality. And I tried to develop that, before, that there was plenty of evidence he got it wrong and we failed to challenge that. If we DO challenge his perception of what that was, then we find a Jack with as many wrong ideas, fears, and defense mechanisms, as Ennis. We find a Jack that got Ennis right so very many times, but got him wrong as to how deeply he, Jack was loved, for himself.
Am trying to be careful on this thread, because we were given so little to work with by the creators of BBM. But I think it's there, enough solid ground, to explore a Jack somewhat different from our own first version - just a dreamy lover.
Yes, I think that in the original mode, the ss did pretty much take Ennis's point of view. I had mentioned in a very old thread that the ss was indeed Ennis's story. And yes, the original Jack was pretty much developed as a foil to the main character. But AP ddi leave out 2 seeds by which the film made the charatcer flower: the metaphor of the rodeo rider, and the valedictory describing the Dozy Embrace. The latter is the most beautiful passage in the entire ss, IMO, and I think it would have been enough of a seed for the development of the Jack Twist presented in the movie. It certainly ties in beautifully with the first "seed", by which we see Jack as the rider who tries to keep his seat over the years...
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Yeah, Thomas, Jack is mysterious in the SS. We saw him needed sex, more than Ennis. We knew that he had sex with many guys. We knew that the was with Randall....But then AP punched us with that beautiful part about the DE and we found that the most important thing for Jack was not have sex with Ennis!!! His favorite memory was a sexless one!!!
Then we knew that he loved Ennis, but maybe it was more friendship with sex than anything else...But once again AP and Jack shot our hearts and we found that Jack kept those shirts for 20 years, and his favorite place was BBM. I think that Jack had in his heart and in his mind a lot of things nobody got to see or understand. I think he was a deep ocean like all human beings.
Perfect, Tammy. You have read my mind when it came to the beauty of the DE passage.
Even Jack's end was mysterious.
Jack leaves us constantly guessing, even as the movie reveals a bit more about his hidden motivations and frustrations as the years go by. We are constantly reminded of his inadequacy in many things, and we see him as a dreamer of dreams that don't seem to ever bear fruit. He is buffetted on all sides, and he still quietly takes it all in. And so Jack's characterization is far from one-dimensional; in truth, it can be very enigmatic at times.
The DE passage does give us some degree of assurance, even if it raises more questions about Jack that will never be fully answered. This is the crowning enigma.
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I think Jack was probably a doting father. Which may not jive with him wanting to leave and live a life with Ennis. How could a father want to leave his son? I've ask myself this question. Maybe he thought leaving wouldn't make much of difference, his son would do OK, and very little resistance would be given. But he stayed, not out fatherly concern, because Ennis wanted that way. Jack for all its worth really didn't have a home, only the one in his mind, the home he wanted so much, a ranch of his own and Ennis.
MG, am not so sure Jack wanted acceptance from his father. Looked more to me like he'd written him off, and the old man knew it. Jack kept helping out at Lightning Flat, more, IMO, from a sense of duty, as well as concern for his mother.
But another part of your post, quoted above, goes into something rarely mentioned- the relationship between Jack and his son. Not much said there in the SS, so the film, I think drew reasonable conclusions and developed them. We do see Jack teaching his son how to drive that big tractor, as a very loving father. But we DON'T see any respect or loyalty shown from the son in the Thanksgiving fracas. It's not too much of a stretch that the son was spoiled rotten by his grandfather and Mom and also picked up on their lack of respect for his Dad. And so, as usual, Jack was shunted off to the side.
That must have happened very early, as Jack was willing to drop his wife and son, with no regrets, very early on. He probably loved his son, but it was pretty well clear, he wasn't essential to his son's life. So, MG, it really is true, I think, what you wrote--Jack didn't have a home except for the one he had in his mind, for himself and Ennis.
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Tony's as always had to "go there", and the the "there" is the layers of Jack Twist. If we took Ennis out of equation for a little while. Who was Jack?
A boy longing for his abusive father approval, but knowing he would never please the old man, but continue to try. Jack never cut the ties of childhood, his mother preserved it, by keeping his room the way it was when he was a boy. "he seem to appreciate that". Where Ennis feared his father, Jack longed for his.
No matter how Jack tried he couldn't get that validation of his manhood from either his father, or LD. The two Stud Ducks, put him down and kept him there. I've always wondered is this the reason why Jack went to men, to get some kind validation by giving himself to them, looking for some sort of father figure to take him under his wing, and guide him into manhood, (Please don't come after me with torches ablazing, and a hanging rope, just a thought).
Jack struggle was finding self respect, to be respected. He wanted to be Mr. Jack Twist, but ended up being "Rodeo, the pissant Combine Saleman". In Texas, thats all he was. His wife instead of supporting him resigned herself to idea he was just that. Their marriage a mystery, did she know, did she suspect, or simply she married down instead of up, and it was too late to do anything about. It was never so clear, as to Jack standing, when his son was born, treated no better that the help, he perform his husbandly duties, got Lureen pregnant and had a son, but reminded no better than a house worker.
Then there was Ennis, someone who gave him respect, who look at him as a man equal to him. He was Jack f#@king Twist, and Ennis accepted him as his friend, and his lover.
I'm just wondering from what we know, is Jack one dimensional, or just as complex as Ennis. what do you think really made him tick, what went on in his life that made him the man he was.
Thanks MG for this thread. Just catching up on some of the reading, but here we see that it's clear that Jack , like Ennis is a very complex figure also.
His childhood must have been a lonely one being raised in LF, a virtual *no man's land* out in the middle of nowhere. Talk about the *boonies*, what did he do for fun even as a child? Never even spoke of childhood friends or schooling.
Then there's the abuse, his father a distant , bitter man. It is this point I whole-heartedly agree with, that this is the part of Jack that left him longing and desperate for something more , something better. Some one to hold onto to. Rejection followed him throughout his life. I see little Jack as a sensitive boy, wondering what else was *out there*? What would eventually become of him. I'm no Jack expert, having been brought up with (9) brothers and sisters and really can't relate to the lonliness of being an only child in rural Wyoming, I can only imagine.
Seems to me , he was run off the homestead to find a life , at 18 having to become a man fast, he takes to rodeo, an occupation where you only get paid, if you can hang on for 8 secs on a bucking bull. Who knows how much he suffered during that time. Nothing ever seem to come by him easy, so I feel he came to expect rejection , learning that , if he could'nt see it or feel it, ..it did'nt exist. So what drove Jack,? alot of hope and determination.
Unlike Ennis, no one taught him all the *manly* skills like shooting, hunting etc.., standards by which men in his culture were just expected to know and were *judged* by these skills or lack of them. He had all rights to grow into a bitter soul, but he did'nt. It's amazing to me how he maintained the patience and emotional stamina to not become bitter, though it has been said that suffering brings character. He had that, , there was only one Jack.
He lacked a feeling of security and stability. For him to be validated as a man was important to him as I see it and I would tend to agree that he sought that security in other men sexually, but something tells me not quite.. I think he knew that that was something he had to find within himself. He had to make a way for himself as a man, a man worked, did what he had to do to survive, but the sexual part of him wanted the acceptance and comfort of who he was as a sexual being. It's natural and human for him to want sex, but I don't just don't feel he was seeking validation for himself as a man from it. IMO more for human comfort, to be held ,comforted, and for a sexual release.
In Ennis, I feel he found it all, what he sought, what he'd lost as a child, acceptance. In turn, he recieved from Ennis the knowledge that he could make another human being feel accepted . Let's face it, who of these *stud ducks* could tame someone like Ennis. Who else could wrap Ennis around his little finger with just a gesture or touch. who could do more for one like Ennis's self-esteem than Jack? I feel it is why he felt he'd always return to Ennis, for it was Ennis who bolstered his own self-worth. Not Lureen, LD, or any other man. With Ennis is where he knew he had sway, power, and a sense of control, stability and security. He could live with that, a dreamer, yes, but with Ennis it was lasting and steady. MHO. Thanx.
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Unlike Ennis, no one taught him all the *manly* skills like shooting, hunting etc.., standards by which men in his culture were just expected to know and were *judged* by these skills or lack of them. He had all rights to grow into a bitter soul, but he did'nt. It's amazing to me how he maintained the patience and emotional stamina to not become bitter, though it has been said that suffering brings character. He had that, , there was only one Jack.
He lacked a feeling of security and stability. For him to be validated as a man was important to him as I see it and I would tend to agree that he sought that security in other men sexually, but something tells me not quite.. I think he knew that that was something he had to find within himself. He had to make a way for himself as a man, a man worked, did what he had to do to survive, but the sexual part of him wanted the acceptance and comfort of who he was as a sexual being. It's natural and human for him to want sex, but I don't just don't feel he was seeking validation for himself as a man from it. IMO more for human comfort, to be held ,comforted, and for a sexual release.
It seemed to me that Jack's lack of siblings (being an only child, apparently) and his distant relationship with his father explains a lot in the total absence of a male role model in his life. The more "feminine" aspects like his emotiveness can certainly be attributed to his mother, who Jack no doubt turned to in the absence of any masculine reinforcement.
In Ennis, I feel he found it all, what he sought, what he'd lost as a child, acceptance. In turn, he recieved from Ennis the knowledge that he could make another human being feel accepted . Let's face it, who of these *stud ducks* could tame someone like Ennis. Who else could wrap Ennis around his little finger with just a gesture or touch. who could do more for one like Ennis's self-esteem than Jack? I feel it is why he felt he'd always return to Ennis, for it was Ennis who bolstered his own self-worth. Not Lureen, LD, or any other man. With Ennis is where he knew he had sway, power, and a sense of control, stability and security. He could live with that, a dreamer, yes, but with Ennis it was lasting and steady. MHO. Thanx.
The same can be said about Jack's role with Ennis. Both seemed to reinforce each other, and their shared experience of lonely childhoods seemed to have strengthened the affinity.
At the very least, Ennis had a brother and a sister. It is interesting to note that Jack appeared more emotionally self-reliant than Ennis. Perhaps it was out of necessity -- having had to resolve things inside of him all by himself very early on.
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It seemed to me that Jack's lack of siblings (being an only child, apparently) and his distant relationship with his father explains a lot in the total absence of a male role model in his life. The more "feminine" aspects like his emotiveness can certainly be attributed to his mother, who Jack no doubt turned to in the absence of any masculine reinforcement.
The same can be said about Jack's role with Ennis. Both seemed to reinforce each other, and their shared experience of lonely childhoods seemed to have strengthened the affinity.
At the very least, Ennis had a brother and a sister. It is interesting to note that Jack appeared more emotionally self-reliant than Ennis. Perhaps it was out of necessity -- having had to resolve things inside of him all by himself very early on.
Jack's tears in the truck after Ennis rejection of him in the divorce scene, showed how deeply Jack could feel, it was right after that we see a harder, maybe a more bitter Jack. Was it because it was Ennis who hurt him or was it that self reliance he had to learn?
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It seemed to me that Jack's lack of siblings (being an only child, apparently) and his distant relationship with his father explains a lot in the total absence of a male role model in his life. The more "feminine" aspects like his emotiveness can certainly be attributed to his mother, who Jack no doubt turned to in the absence of any masculine reinforcement.
The same can be said about Jack's role with Ennis. Both seemed to reinforce each other, and their shared experience of lonely childhoods seemed to have strengthened the affinity.
At the very least, Ennis had a brother and a sister. It is interesting to note that Jack appeared more emotionally self-reliant than Ennis. Perhaps it was out of necessity -- having had to resolve things inside of him all by himself very early on.
I agree with you,Thomas,in that Jack had always a lack for a male role model;since his father's example served only to reinforce his need to demonstrate to everybody(and to himself firstly)that he was worthy of admiration and esteem for what and how he was.As I think it has been said formerly,this lack and desperate need for a man's approbation is present in his sexual and affective life with another men,even with Ennis-or mostly with him...-.Ennis gave him this approval he needed so much,as a worker,a friend,a man,a lover,and,in sum,as a complete human being;he made him feel appreciated for himself,with his qualities and his faults,knowing that he could learn from Ennis the same than Ennis could learn from him in all senses.For this reason,and as you say,he seems to me more self-reliant than Ennis,sometimes,and sometimes not so mature or so sure of himself;yes,he had to resolve problems by himself during all his life-no siblings to share them,no father reliable enough to trust in-and this develops a greater maturity.But IMO he always had a corner inside him that wasn't so sure of himself and his possibilities,also for this situation of having always been undervalued for the person who should have given him more security,his father...That's why I think as a answer to your question,MGJack's tears in the truck after Ennis rejection of him in the divorce scene, showed how deeply Jack could feel, it was right after that we see a harder, maybe a more bitter Jack. Was it because it was Ennis who hurt him or was it that self reliance he had to learn?
that it was fifty-fifty of both circumstances:one more time he felt rejected by Ennis and his feelings were hurt,but at the same time his self reliance broke down somehow.I guess he always had the need to know for sure that Ennis loved him and accepted him,no matter how he was;and every time his dreams fade away,it was like a crack in his self-trust wall-not only a dissapointment in his perfect life together-.I don't know if all this makes sense...
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Jack's tears in the truck after Ennis rejection of him in the divorce scene, showed how deeply Jack could feel, it was right after that we see a harder, maybe a more bitter Jack. Was it because it was Ennis who hurt him or was it that self reliance he had to learn?
I think it was a little of both. Certainly he was hurt, disappointed and maybe just a little anger. Anger at himself that he had read too much into Ennis's postcard confirming his divorce. He seemed numb with disappointment as he walked back to his truck, but it was only when it sunk in, the tears came, the let down of the awful truth engulfed him. He had so much trust and hope that this was it, he and Ennis can finally be together. When Ennis did'nt even invite him to wait till later after he took the girls home, it was like a slap in the face to all his hope. Felt directionless and alone. I think it reinforced in him, a self-reliance for himself. From that point on, Jack was looking out for himself with much more caution.
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I think it was a little of both. Certainly he was hurt, disappointed and maybe just a little anger. Anger at himself that he had read too much into Ennis's postcard confirming his divorce. He seemed numb with disappointment as he walked back to his truck, but it was only when it sunk in, the tears came, the let down of the awful truth engulfed him. He had so much trust and hope that this was it, he and Ennis can finally be together. When Ennis did'nt even invite him to wait till later after he took the girls home, it was like a slap in the face to all his hope. Felt directionless and alone. I think it reinforced in him, a self-reliance for himself. From that point on, Jack was looking out for himself with much more caution.
And you see this transformation in his exchange with Lureen he is not so catering to her, he has no problem in countering her when she ask why husbands never dance with their wives, he had no idea, and he really didn't much care, but too a passive aggressive route by asking LaShawn to dance. Jack was fighting back, (in his way).
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Jack's tears in the truck after Ennis rejection of him in the divorce scene, showed how deeply Jack could feel, it was right after that we see a harder, maybe a more bitter Jack. Was it because it was Ennis who hurt him or was it that self reliance he had to learn?
MG, do you mean the tears, or the fact that Jack waited until he was way from Ennis to vent out his feelings.
I think the tears came because it was Ennis who hurt him.
I think he cried after leaving Ennis because he was used to doing this all his life -- perhaps because of having a father that didn't want him to show that much emotion.
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Slightly *o) ...I've always wondered if Lureen asked "why is it that husbands never want to dance with their wives?" because she knew that he was gay.
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I think that Jake gave Jack a sadness we don't really see in the ss. He is what we call a Sunflower child. He had been brought up in an abusive environment but he still had the ability to want to love others. He tries, with Ennis, to go after a life he haven't had but still he isn't afraid to ASK Ennis for it
The rejection by Ennis, and the tears in the truck, are, to me, more and more, one of the important areas we are given, to untangle Jack Twist. Since I don't know how to multiple quote, have started with Esmelily and will go to each of the other posts, with apologies for picking and choosing, before trying to give my own take on what happened:
-MG: "Jack's tears in the truck.....showed how deeply Jack could feel, it was right after that we see a harder, maybe a more bitter Jack."
-MPJ: "...and every time his dreams fade away, it was like a crack in his self-trust wall..."
-AF: "From that point on, Jack was looking out for himself with much more caution."
-TPE: "I think the tears came because it was Ennis who hurt him."
-BT: "I think Jack had in his heart....a lot of things nobody got to see or understand."
-MG: "Jack was fighting back (in his own way)."
IMO, all of these are so very rightful, but am going with the last one, from MG, more completely. I don't think Jack went to Mexico for sex. I think he went there for revenge. I felt that the first time I saw the movie.
He was crying in the truck because his assumption that the divorce meant he and Ennis had a future was rebuffed. He wept all the way....to Mexico. When you are heartbroken and weeping, you are not....horny. Nor was there any smile or lust as he went down that alley. He was, and he knew it, being unfaithful, and this was his revenge.
Which leads me to another conclusion. All the Brokies who assume Jack was promiscuous after the events on the mountain (AP's hints notwithstanding) are, IMO, wrong. The film developed a different Jack (and AP has somewhat conceded, she knew Ennis, she didn't fully know Jack). And that Jack WAS faithful to Ennis until this tearful ride to Mexico. (Of course, I've also challenged the rodeo clown interpretation, too, saying it was trying for a friend, and not a pick-up, as that was just too much being read into a bar room conversation).
So, for me, Jack went from the sacred (sex with love) to the profane (male prostitutes), because the sacred had been profaned, when Ennis failed to reassure him. Of course, it couldn't have been worse timing, Jack pulling up just as Ennis was taking off with his daughters.
Even so, anybody who thinks that trip to Mexico was horniness, doesn't factor in the tears. It was revenge. Later trips....well, he'd found a place to go.
Please forgive my choosing the quotes that were convenient for this line of thinking. The writers would not necessarily agree with my conclusions.
They were all very good posts and everyone did so very well in doing what we rarely do....try to look for more to Jack than the standard take.
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Dear Atalley - sorry, was posting just as you did. Interesting question. On the surface, seems to mean nothing. But, between those two....just might mean a little more. She did know there were an awful lot of "fishing trips".
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So, for me, Jack went from the sacred (sex with love) to the profane (male prostitutes), because the sacred had been profaned, when Ennis failed to reassure him. Of course, it couldn't have been worse timing, Jack pulling up just as Ennis was taking off with his daughters.
Even so, anybody who thinks that trip to Mexico was horniness, doesn't factor in the tears. It was revenge. Later trips....well, he'd found a place to go.
Please forgive my choosing the quotes that were convenient for this line of thinking. The writers would not necessarily agree with my conclusions.
They were all very good posts and everyone did so very well in doing what we rarely do....try to look for more to Jack than the standard take.
And this is in a nutshell. Ennis failed to see who Jack really was, dare I say it even AP, didn't fully understand Jack, and she created him. But Jack was the recipient of all Ennis's fear, doubts, low self esteem issues, and Jack took it, where Alma just cut her losses, Jack never did.
But the effects on him was deep and profound. After the fiasco of the misunderstood notification of Ennis sent to Jack about his divorce, and the subsequence rejection of him when he arrived hopeful, and happy that finally their life together would happen but didn't. Jack was feeling debased, hurt, and rejected went to Mexico I think out some kind of self punishment, along with revenge. Again he was feeling less than, and damn Ennis for not understanding.
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Slightly *o) ...I've always wondered if Lureen asked "why is it that husbands never want to dance with their wives?" because she knew that he was gay.
I initially thought that it was a playful hint to Jack that she wanted him to dance with her, but it seemed that Jack took it the wrong way. I am sure that there is something deeper to this than just a jilted invitation to dance. There must be a double entendre here in the use of the word "dance", don't you agree?
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I initially thought that it was a playful hint to Jack that she wanted him to dance with her, but it seemed that Jack took it the wrong way. I am sure that there is something deeper to this than just a jilted invitation to dance. There must be a double entendre here in the use of the word "dance", don't you agree?
Didn't Lureen seem a little frustrated with Jack, what else beside dancing he wasn't asking from her? Asking LaShawn to dance was to shut her up and also get some distance from Randall stares, which I think distrubed him even more. I really think Jack by this time was outed, not to the world but to himself. IMO
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Wow, what a thread. Y'all rock!
Concerning the idea that Jack's distant father might have sent Jack into playing for the other team: doesn't that fly in the face of the conventional wisdom that gays are created as such, not assembled out of the sum of their experiences?
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Dear Zadig - hmmm.... yeah, that would be inconveniently inconsistent, wouldn't it? There has seemed to be a drift to saying Jack was rejected by his father and therefore sought ratification from other males, especially Ennis. But that didn't necessarily have to be sexual. And am not sure anybody went all the way there on that one, although someone may have.
Going to how-you-get-gay, or even WERE they gay, would be subjects on other threads in the forum, and so doing that here would likely be flagged as OT by the moderators.
For whatever it's worth, on-topic, Jack got trashed a lot by males, and not for sexual reasons, just probably because he didn't fit in to the dopey stereotypes mandated by that time and place. He was brash, lively, and a dreamer and that didn't sit well with the I'm-a-real-man-because-I-don't-think-feel-or-see crowd. He wasn't dull, and that was a prerequisite for fitting in.
By the way, welcome to the forum, and I hope you have a good time here.
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Well thanks Tony!
From the lead-in post in the thread I figured something a lil Freudian to be the case, but I stand corrected. I guess my dissonant reading comes from my different view of Jack. I didn't see Jack as really in that "needs validation in general from the fellas" boat. And that's because of 1) the awesome scene where he stands up to his father in law, sits him down and shuts him up. Pulling a move like that isn't an efficient way to the stated ends. 2) I was under the impression that since he found Ennis, all other needs had blurred into the background quite a bit.
But, hey, I don't mind being wrong... so long as the error gets caught and corrected one way or another. That's part of learning. And if being wrong gets the wrath of moderators for somehow being off topic, I sure will be keeping them busy. I didn't sign up because I thought I had all, some or any of the answers. The exact opposite in fact. ;D
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Well thanks Tony!
From the lead-in post in the thread I figured something a lil Freudian to be the case, but I stand corrected.
Dear Zadig - My own experience here, so far, is that we don't "correct" each other, as no one's take on the movie can be supposed to be the only legitimate one. Am sorry if my reply gave the wrong impression. We just kind of state our opinions and throw them out there (and sometimes run like hell).
As it turns out, a re-reading of the lead-in post supports what you had to say. But, again, it's a marketplace of ideas here, and there are no known ayatollahs, only the occasional arched eyebrows. Your points were well taken, am sure.
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Yeah Tony, but the thing is that the one thing I'm SURE of is that I'm gonna be learning more than teaching 'round here. I've only seen the movie once, for the first time on Bravo Friday nite. I think most fans have seen it more than that and read the short story.
I haven't read that. The only thing of hers I've read is The Shipping News. I'm pretty sure that fans of longer standing have also had longer to digest the whole thing. Thus I know there are better interpretations and insights than what I've got going on right now! Oh, and you helped me with a little thing or two in one post, THANKS! One other thing: you mentioned that it is open to question whether Jack or Ennis was even gay? See, you got me on the right track with that one. The way most of us straights figure, bi and gay is a distinction without a difference. That's one lil prejudice I don't mind having dispelled. Much gratitude, Tony!
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Yeah Tony, but the thing is that the one thing I'm SURE of is that I'm gonna be learning more than teaching 'round here. I've only seen the movie once, for the first time on Bravo Friday nite. I think most fans have seen it more than that and read the short story.
I haven't read that. The only thing of hers I've read is The Shipping News. I'm pretty sure that fans of longer standing have also had longer to digest the whole thing. Thus I know there are better interpretations and insights than what I've got going on right now! Oh, and you helped me with a little thing or two in one post, THANKS! One other thing: you mentioned that it is open to question whether Jack or Ennis was even gay? See, you got me on the right track with that one. The way most of us straights figure, bi and gay is a distinction without a difference. That's one lil prejudice I don't mind having dispelled. Much gratitude, Tony!
Welcome Zadig,
I'm looking forward to your thoughts, questions, ideas, fresh eyes bring new light, another light. Questions that might have not been asked. Looking forward to reading yours posts.
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Didn't Lureen seem a little frustrated with Jack, what else beside dancing he wasn't asking from her? Asking LaShawn to dance was to shut her up and also get some distance from Randall stares, which I think distrubed him even more. I really think Jack by this time was outed, not to the world but to himself. IMO
Yes, I sort of read it as a veiled commentary on their marital relations. But what you say about shutiing up LaShawn and getting away from Randall is most likely true. Of course, he couldn't comment about it to Lureen, and I am sure that Lureen didn't really care to notice anything.
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Wow, what a thread. Y'all rock!
Concerning the idea that Jack's distant father might have sent Jack into playing for the other team: doesn't that fly in the face of the conventional wisdom that gays are created as such, not assembled out of the sum of their experiences?
Welcome, zadig.
Personally, I don't believe that Jack's father affected his sexual orientation. But what I do believe is that jack's father made Jack more emotive and loving/caring. In life, you frequently compensate for what you have been deprived...
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Welcome, zadig.
Personally, I don't believe that Jack's father affected his sexual orientation. But what I do believe is that jack's father made Jack more emotive and loving/caring. In life, you frequently compensate for what you have been deprived...
I agree one more time,Thomas...I don't think either that Jack's father affected his sexual orientation-at least,not in the way and measure Ennis father did-.But he got with his attitude towards his son that this one needed a male figure as example,what he hadn't got exactly; and,of course,also made him more anxious for affection and approbation,And for me this approbation specially,included sexual aspects,as he needed to be loved,to feel somebody cared for him.
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Yes, I sort of read it as a veiled commentary on their marital relations. But what you say about shutiing up LaShawn and getting away from Randall is most likely true. Of course, he couldn't comment about it to Lureen, and I am sure that Lureen didn't really care to notice anything.
I should have made myself more clear, it was a way to shut up Lureen, her remark on wives and dancing was a dig at Jack. As if it was more than just dancing he hadn't ask for. Remember Lureen is, well very sexual herself, I mean she gave it up the first night, which even shocked Jack. I've stated this before Lureen changed over the years along with Jack, in her appearance, her going blonde, to wearing big jewelery to the point of almost tacky,maybe to appear more feminie, as if to assure herself of her own allure as a woman.
Did she know about Jack, maybe, that question is wide open for speculation. But it was clear Lureen was not a content woman.
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I agree one more time,Thomas...I don't think either that Jack's father affected his sexual orientation-at least,not in the way and measure Ennis father did-.But he got with his attitude towards his son that this one needed a male figure as example,what he hadn't got exactly; and,of course,also made him more anxious for affection and approbation,And for me this approbation specially,included sexual aspects,as he needed to be loved,to feel somebody cared for him.
Yes, MPJ. For me, if there was anything about the elder Twist that affected Jack throughout his life, it was the need to be loved -- and a need to belong in that love. He was as caring as he much as he wanted to be cared for.
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I should have made myself more clear, it was a way to shut up Lureen, her remark on wives and dancing was a dig at Jack. As if it was more than just dancing he hadn't ask for. Remember Lureen is, well very sexual herself, I mean she gave it up the first night, which even shocked Jack. I've stated this before Lureen changed over the years along with Jack, in her appearance, her going blonde, to wearing big jewelery to the point of almost tacky,maybe to appear more feminie, as if to assure herself of her own allure as a woman.
Did she know about Jack, maybe, that question is wide open for speculation. But it was clear Lureen was not a content woman.
Yes, I understood your point the first time around, MG. Sorry if it seemed that I didn't! ;)
Did she know about Jack? It is most likely that she knew at the time of hisdeath -- very likely after, but also probably right before, IMO.
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Yes, I understood your point the first time around, MG. Sorry if it seemed that I didn't! ;)
Did she know about Jack? It is most likely that she knew at the time of hisdeath -- very likely after, but also probably right before, IMO.
I think Lureen at least suspected there was another woman in Jack's life ,not a man. Not until Ennis called her after Jack's death do I feel she knew it was Ennis. Jack and Lureen had grown apart, big time. It's obvious that the thrill has been gone awhile from this marriage, including sex, companionship, and respect ect...Jack was no longer seeking any of it from her.
The eye contact between Jack and Randall was suggestive on both parts. A little too prolonged not to be interested. I think Randall noted the obvious rift between Jack and his wife.IMO.
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I think Lureen at least suspected there was another woman in Jack's life ,not a man. Not until Ennis called her after Jack's death do I feel she knew it was Ennis. Jack and Lureen had grown apart, big time. It's obvious that the thrill has been gone awhile from this marriage, including sex, companionship, and respect ect...Jack was no longer seeking any of it from her.
The eye contact between Jack and Randall was suggestive on both parts. A little too prolonged not to be interested. I think Randall noted the obvious rift between Jack and his wife.IMO.
Well, I do think the circumstances of Jack's death may have alerted Lureen to the fact that Jack was toying with other men. But I do think Lureen didn't realize who Ennis was until the call...
And yes, I think Randall sized up the situation between Lureena dnd Jack that early on...
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Well, I do think the circumstances of Jack's death may have alerted Lureen to the fact that Jack was toying with other men. But I do think Lureen didn't realize who Ennis was until the call...
And yes, I think Randall sized up the situation between Lureena dnd Jack that early on...
I think Lureen knew,evidently,that Jack was another relationship out of their marriage; as you say,AF,there was nothing that could join them since some years before his death.But I'm not so sure if she didn't suspect that this other relationship was with another man; too many "fishing trips" always with the same man,too much happiness every time he went to these trips with him,too wide precipice between them at the same time he felt more attached to that man...There were too many coincidences,always with Ennis with protagonist,as not to suspect something.What I could affirm is that she realised the truth about the two men when speaking with Ennis on the phone;but more than a discovery,it was a confirmation,IMO.
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We speak of Ennis compartentalizing his life or at least his feelings, when Jack actually did it. He lived three lives, Texas, Ennis, and LF, and none of them met at any point until his death. Ennis was the focal point. Jack parents knew of Ennis, and the relationship they had, Lureen knew that this man her husband would meet once or twice a year for twenty years was significant person in his life. But the interesting part of this trio is that Jack never brought Lureen to meet his folks, they never saw their grandson and would probably never will. Lureen left it up to Ennis relay the message of Jack wishes of where his ashes to be placed.
Ennis was the only real part of Jack's life, and in a way Jack parents and Lureen knew it.
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I think Lureen knew,evidently,that Jack was another relationship out of their marriage; as you say,AF,there was nothing that could join them since some years before his death.But I'm not so sure if she didn't suspect that this other relationship was with another man; too many "fishing trips" always with the same man,too much happiness every time he went to these trips with him,too wide precipice between them at the same time he felt more attached to that man...There were too many coincidences,always with Ennis with protagonist,as not to suspect something.What I could affirm is that she realised the truth about the two men when speaking with Ennis on the phone;but more than a discovery,it was a confirmation,IMO.
To a certain extent, I think Lureen didnt care at a later point whether Jack was having an affair. But I do think that she didn't suspect that Jack was having something going with other men. Personally, I don't think that Lureen would have cared per se -- except for the fact that if such a thing about Jack became public, it would be more damaging to her and the family, I would suppose. To this extent, I think she cared.
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We speak of Ennis compartentalizing his life or at least his feelings, when Jack actually did it. He lived three lives, Texas, Ennis, and LF, and none of them met at any point until his death. Ennis was the focal point. Jack parents knew of Ennis, and the relationship they had, Lureen knew that this man her husband would meet once or twice a year for twenty years was significant person in his life. But the interesting part of this trio is that Jack never brought Lureen to meet his folks, they never saw their grandson and would probably never will. Lureen left it up to Ennis relay the message of Jack wishes of where his ashes to be placed.
Ennis was the only real part of Jack's life, and in a way Jack parents and Lureen knew it.
Well, during Jack's lifetime, Ennis never got to meet or even talk to Lureen and Jack's parents. So Jack really made sure that his worlds were separate. What is curious though is that Jack always talked to his parents about Ennis and even talked about bringing him back to live on the ranch. Of course, he never really talked about Ennis to Lureen except as the fishing buddy he visited back in WY. But I had a feeling that Jack shared more about Ennis to his mom and dad, instead of with Lureen and Bobby.
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Well, during Jack's lifetime, Ennis never got to meet or even talk to Lureen and Jack's parents. So Jack really made sure that his worlds were separate. What is curious though is that Jack always talked to his parents about Ennis and even talked about bringing him back to live on the ranch. Of course, he never really talked about Ennis to Lureen except as the fishing buddy he visited back in WY. But I had a feeling that Jack shared more about Ennis to his mom and dad, instead of with Lureen and Bobby.
Yes,me too.Perhaps because they're in all senses further to Ennis and their relationship than Lureen was;and,as you say,this was an easiness for Jack,because all the three worlds were separate in this way.They know,but they didn't share their relationship,their day-after-day life when they were together.It was a way of relieving himself speaking with his parents,but without "mixing" them too much in the practise.
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all the three worlds were separate in this way.They know,but they didn't share their relationship,their day-after-day life when they were together.
Jack really did have 3 separate worlds: Ennis; Lureen & his son; and his parents. And maybe a 4th world & 5th world: Mexico, and Randall. All kept separately. That was quite a juggling act but he seemed to do it in a happy-go-lucky way rather than being basically deceptive.
As to his parents knowing ---it really looks like the balance of power at Lightning Flat shifted, as Twist Sr. grew older and unable to keep up with the work. In that environment, Jack had the upper hand and may have felt more comfortable babbling about his hopes and dreams, without caring much what his father made of them. IMO, an unspoken agreement not to speak to the implications of Jack having another guy there existed, so as to skirt the dilemma: the parents needed help. Twist Sr. couldn't afford to be overtly critical. And it was probably not only his Mom, but also his Dad, who saw that, whatever dreams Jack had, none of them included abandoning his parents in their old age. Grow old, and see what is more important- whether your son has a lover, or whether your only son loves you enough to see you through to the end, as aging inexorably takes its toll.
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Jack really did have 3 separate worlds: Ennis; Lureen & his son; and his parents. And maybe a 4th world & 5th world: Mexico, and Randall. All kept separately. That was quite a juggling act but he seemed to do it in a happy-go-lucky way rather than being basically deceptive.
As to his parents knowing ---it really looks like the balance of power at Lightning Flat shifted, as Twist Sr. grew older and unable to keep up with the work. In that environment, Jack had the upper hand and may have felt more comfortable babbling about his hopes and dreams, without caring much what his father made of them. IMO, an unspoken agreement not to speak to the implications of Jack having another guy there existed, so as to skirt the dilemma: the parents needed help. Twist Sr. couldn't afford to be overtly critical. And it was probably not only his Mom, but also his Dad, who saw that, whatever dreams Jack had, none of them included abandoning his parents in their old age. Grow old, and see what is more important- whether your son has a lover, or whether your only son loves you enough to see you through to the end, as aging inexorably takes its toll.
This beautiful Tony, and I believe so true. I couldn't help but think how the old man almost took pleasure in telling Ennis of Randall's existence. He knew of Ennis and what he meant to Jack. So like most of Jack dreams he made nothing of them, so if Ennis thought he was special, he wasn't. I can't help think the old man was competion with Jack, but also let be known he owned him, Jack was his, always will be. Jack was like him, not that damn special.
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Tony, MG, beautiful posts. ^f^
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Yes,me too.Perhaps because they're in all senses further to Ennis and their relationship than Lureen was;and,as you say,this was an easiness for Jack,because all the three worlds were separate in this way.They know,but they didn't share their relationship,their day-after-day life when they were together.It was a way of relieving himself speaking with his parents,but without "mixing" them too much in the practise.
I think this act of compartmentalizing various aspects of our lives is very human. I think this is why many of use connect with Jack in this regard...
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Jack really did have 3 separate worlds: Ennis; Lureen & his son; and his parents. And maybe a 4th world & 5th world: Mexico, and Randall. All kept separately. That was quite a juggling act but he seemed to do it in a happy-go-lucky way rather than being basically deceptive.
As to his parents knowing ---it really looks like the balance of power at Lightning Flat shifted, as Twist Sr. grew older and unable to keep up with the work. In that environment, Jack had the upper hand and may have felt more comfortable babbling about his hopes and dreams, without caring much what his father made of them. IMO, an unspoken agreement not to speak to the implications of Jack having another guy there existed, so as to skirt the dilemma: the parents needed help. Twist Sr. couldn't afford to be overtly critical. And it was probably not only his Mom, but also his Dad, who saw that, whatever dreams Jack had, none of them included abandoning his parents in their old age. Grow old, and see what is more important- whether your son has a lover, or whether your only son loves you enough to see you through to the end, as aging inexorably takes its toll.
I also feel the same way about Jack's parents when they got to be a bit older. Although I doubt that there was any form of rapprochement between father and son in the later years. There was probably very little to get back to, to begin with, I think.
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this is a great topic, i think most of what i can think of has been ocvered in this thread already, but ill probably jump in soon when something hits me :), one thing thats stood out to me here is the topic of jack searching for a father figure to guide him into manhood... maybe what jack more seeks is the acknowlegement that he is a man. both his father and LD as previosuly stated do not treat him this way... maybe Jack felt it important to prove his manhood, as he was gay. and felt people not acknowleging him as a man (even though they didnt know he was gay) was some kind of mocking him due to his sexuality... ive written this clumsily and alround badly i hope it is in someway understandable. ill try and clear it up later :)
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Great posts everone! :clap: It seems that Jack, as well as Ennis, was a complex individual. I agree that Mexico was more revenge than anything else. Also, Randall was a VERY poor substitute for Ennis. I wonder how deep his feelings for him really were. Not very, IMO.
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one thing thats stood out to me here is the topic of jack searching for a father figure to guide him into manhood... maybe what jack more seeks is the acknowlegement that he is a man....
Yeah, I can see the distinction you are making, Matt. He wasn't looking for someone to help him become a man, he wanted it understood he already was a man and needed to be treated that way. Trouble was, in his environment, someone was thought to be manly if they were grumpy jerks (Aguirre), sneering and cold-blooded (the rodeo clown) or domineering and ignorant (his father-in-law). None of them were half the man that Jack was, and yet, because he dared to be happy-go-lucky, and had no spite....he just didn't fit their very strange definitions of manhood. Great distinction, Matt. Well-done!
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It seems that Jack, as well as Ennis, was a complex individual. I agree that Mexico was more revenge than anything else. Also, Randall was a VERY poor substitute for Ennis. I wonder how deep his feelings for him really were. Not very, IMO.
I think, Atalley, that Manhattangirl hit pay dirt in challenging us to see more to Jack. He really was more complex than many of us, including me, had thought. Am kind of wondering, though....I agree the trip to Mexico was either revenge or catharsis, not lust. I wonder if Randall served the same function.
I remember that fade-out, of Jack's angry face, as Ennis left from their last meet-up. And how Ennis had warned him not to be unfaithful, yet wouldn't commit to living together. Maybe Randall was also a kind of revenge. By the way, is it just me, or did Jack seem to have very poor taste in other guys, except for Ennis? Darn- even the bartender polishing glasses in the bar and openly friendly to Jack, was more attractive than the rodeo clown, the Mexican hooker, or Randall. Come to think of it, that bartender MIGHT have been hitting on Jack. I don't have much gaydar but it sure looked possible to me. What WAS Jack thinking, passing that one up?
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Great posts everone! :clap: It seems that Jack, as well as Ennis, was a complex individual. I agree that Mexico was more revenge than anything else. Also, Randall was a VERY poor substitute for Ennis. I wonder how deep his feelings for him really were. Not very, IMO.
I wonder too, but gees we sure give Randall a hard way to go. He was attracted to Jack, he couldn't keep his eyes off him. And he ask him to go "fishing". This takes poor Jack off guard, as if it never occurred to him that someone could want him. I think Randall's attraction to Jack was real, and I think him asking to spend time with Jack was sincere.
I can't blame Jack for going to him. Here was someone who wanted to be with him. We know it didn't work between them, but Jack did try.
This must added to Jack mood that day of the final confrontation, he was stuck with what he had. But asking himself, what did he really have.
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I wonder too, but gees we sure give Randall a hard way to go. He was attracted to Jack, he couldn't keep his eyes off him. And he ask him to go "fishing". This takes poor Jack off guard, as if it never occurred to him that someone could want him. I think Randall's attraction to Jack was real, and I think him asking to spend time with Jack was sincere.
I can't blame Jack for going to him. Here was someone who wanted to be with him. We know it didn't work between them, but Jack did try.
This must added to Jack mood that day of the final confrontation, he was stuck with what he had. But asking himself, what did he really have.
wow thats a really amazing, post especially the bit i bolded :)
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Yeah, I can see the distinction you are making, Matt. He wasn't looking for someone to help him become a man, he wanted it understood he already was a man and needed to be treated that way. Trouble was, in his environment, someone was thought to be manly if they were grumpy jerks (Aguirre), sneering and cold-blooded (the rodeo clown) or domineering and ignorant (his father-in-law). None of them were half the man that Jack was, and yet, because he dared to be happy-go-lucky, and had no spite....he just didn't fit their very strange definitions of manhood. Great distinction, Matt. Well-done!
Well, you should know that said it quite beautifully, Tony.
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Great posts everone! :clap: It seems that Jack, as well as Ennis, was a complex individual. I agree that Mexico was more revenge than anything else. Also, Randall was a VERY poor substitute for Ennis. I wonder how deep his feelings for him really were. Not very, IMO.
I don't know whether Mexico was more of revenge -- at least for me, it had more to do with frustration. I think I've been there. Do you understand what I am getting at?
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I wonder too, but gees we sure give Randall a hard way to go. He was attracted to Jack, he couldn't keep his eyes off him. And he ask him to go "fishing". This takes poor Jack off guard, as if it never occurred to him that someone could want him. I think Randall's attraction to Jack was real, and I think him asking to spend time with Jack was sincere.
I can't blame Jack for going to him. Here was someone who wanted to be with him. We know it didn't work between them, but Jack did try.
This must added to Jack mood that day of the final confrontation, he was stuck with what he had. But asking himself, what did he really have.
I think the attraction was real also. In some ways, Randall and Jack were similar. They were not particularly practical. They had domineering wives, and they pretty much knew what they wanted. And most of all, they were not understood.
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I think the attraction was real also. In some ways, Randall and Jack were similar. They were not particularly practical. They had domineering wives, and they pretty much knew what they wanted. And most of all, they were not understood.
Yes, they were not understood. Both men seem to be looked at as the alternative, a way out by their wives. Some women do get married as a way of getting out some present situation they find themselves to be in.
Lureen might have wanted to get out from under the thumb of LD. LaShawn probably thought Randall was a step up, but wound up in a poky place like Childress. The men they were married too weren't as important as being married into a perceived better situation. Neither woman had an idea of the men they married to.
So here they were sparring with each other, Lureen playing Queen Bee making sure LaShawn knew her place. And while all this was going on. Randall and Jack were doing their own sparring, Jack increasingly uncomfortable with Randall stares, not being put off by it, but turned on by it. Poor Jack, he really needed Ennis at that moment. JMO.
There was a lot going at that table that night.
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Yes, they were not understood. Both men seem to be looked at as the alternative, a way out by their wives. Some women do get married as a way of getting out some present situation they find themselves to be in.
Lureen might have wanted to get out from under the thumb of LD. LaShawn probably thought Randall was a step up, but wound up in a poky place like Childress. The men they were married too weren't as important as being married into a perceived better situation. Neither woman had an idea of the men they married to.
So here they were sparring with each other, Lureen playing Queen Bee making sure LaShawn knew her place. And while all this was going on. Randall and Jack were doing their own sparring, Jack increasingly uncomfortable with Randall stares, not being put off by it, but turned on by it. Poor Jack, he really needed Ennis at that moment. JMO.
There was a lot going at that table that night.
Certainly, I think that both the wives thought their respective husbands to be great disappointments. Because of this, perhaps both Randall and Jack had to anchor their sense of self-worth somewhere else. As for Lureen and LaShawn, they certainly didn't have a good idea about who their husbands were. Later in life, perhaps they really didn't care. The latter made it much easier for Jack and Randall, I suppose. Even if the wives knew, I wonder how much they really would have cared after the initial shock, so long as Randall and Jack were discreet enough...
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Certainly, I think that both the wives thought their respective husbands to be great disappointments. Because of this, perhaps both Randall and Jack had to anchor their sense of self-worth somewhere else. As for Lureen and LaShawn, they certainly didn't have a good idea about who their husbands were. Later in life, perhaps they really didn't care. The latter made it much easier for Jack and Randall, I suppose. Even if the wives knew, I wonder how much they really would have cared after the initial shock, so long as Randall and Jack were discreet enough...
well it seemed to me that lureen knew about jack, it seemed quite apaprent on the phone to Ennis after jacks death...
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well it seemed to me that lureen knew about jack, it seemed quite apaprent on the phone to Ennis after jacks death...
Well, she could have known because of the possible circumstances of Jack's death (assuming you believe in one interpretation -- that it wasn't a car accident). But prior to this, we are not totally sure, I guess...
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Well, she could have known because of the possible circumstances of Jack's death (assuming you believe in one interpretation -- that it wasn't a car accident). But prior to this, we are not totally sure, I guess...
yer but i think some of the little looks lureen gve jack when Ennis was mentioned over the years, it jsut seemed like she knew, or at least knew there was something...
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yer but i think some of the little looks lureen gve jack when Ennis was mentioned over the years, it jsut seemed like she knew, or at least knew there was something...
Perhaps. perhaps... ;) Wonderful, isn't it: how the film keeps on tantalizing us with the possibilities...
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Perhaps. perhaps... ;) Wonderful, isn't it: how the film keeps on tantalizing us with the possibilities...
yes its amazing :)
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Yes, they were not understood. Both men seem to be looked at as the alternative, a way out by their wives. Some women do get married as a way of getting out some present situation they find themselves to be in.
Lureen might have wanted to get out from under the thumb of LD. LaShawn probably thought Randall was a step up, but wound up in a poky place like Childress. The men they were married too weren't as important as being married into a perceived better situation. Neither woman had an idea of the men they married to.
So here they were sparring with each other, Lureen playing Queen Bee making sure LaShawn knew her place. And while all this was going on. Randall and Jack were doing their own sparring, Jack increasingly uncomfortable with Randall stares, not being put off by it, but turned on by it. Poor Jack, he really needed Ennis at that moment. JMO.
There was a lot going at that table that night.
MG.
I'm glad you clarified that Jack removed himself because he was turned on by Randall's stares. I think so too. Liking the attention a little too much. Randall got the picture real quick imo. He was totally checkin Jack out.
And as was said before Randall sensed that Jack and Lureen were at odds. I think it ironic that Jack got to actually meet both his lovers's wives, even danced with LaShawn!! Do you feel Jack had any romantic notions for LaShawn ? :s) or Jack befriending the wife to assure he got the husband later? To keep these secrets hidden, he had to be a little calculating , not to get caught, some major maneuvering to keep Lureen and LaShawn + Ennis in the dark? Gawd I hate to think it sorry. Old man Twist did say Jack was thinking about leaving Lureen, and bringing a "ranch neighbor" up to LF, build a cabin etc... Jack could talk a blue steak too, but Jesus, even during the dance she never shut up. To me , it does'nt make sense to lead the wife on in an affair , then leave with the Husband. Maybe I sound judgemental. of Jack, don't mean to sorry ..just sayin.
Gawd, how did he explain the situation about Randall to his parents, especially Mrs. Twist after so much talk about Ennis and the shirts. Nevertheless, it was Ennis who showed up to get the ashes, not Randall.
Ennis told the old man it was what Jack's wife said he wanted. His respose? " he thought he was too godam-n special to be buried in the family plot" A dig at Lureen, Jack and the money? Sounds like he apparently did'nt think too highly of Jack's people in Childress. Probably jealous because Jack turned out to be a rich Texas businessman, and he was'nt. A few thoughts.
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MG.
I'm glad you clarified that Jack removed himself because he was turned on by Randall's stares. I think so too. Liking the attention a little too much. Randall got the picture real quick imo. He was totally checkin Jack out.
And as was said before Randall sensed that Jack and Lureen were at odds. I think it ironic that Jack got to actually meet both his lovers's wives, even danced with LaShawn!! Do you feel Jack had any romantic notions for LaShawn ? :s) or Jack befriending the wife to assure he got the husband later? To keep these secrets hidden, he had to be a little calculating , not to get caught, some major maneuvering to keep Lureen and LaShawn + Ennis in the dark? Gawd I hate to think it sorry. Old man Twist did say Jack was thinking about leaving Lureen, and bringing a "ranch neighbor" up to LF, build a cabin etc... Jack could talk a blue steak too, but Jesus, even during the dance she never shut up. To me , it does'nt make sense to lead the wife on in an affair , then leave with the Husband. Maybe I sound judgemental. of Jack, don't mean to sorry ..just sayin.
Gawd, how did he explain the situation about Randall to his parents, especially Mrs. Twist after so much talk about Ennis and the shirts. Nevertheless, it was Ennis who showed up to get the ashes, not Randall.
Ennis told the old man it was what Jack's wife said he wanted. His respose? " he thought he was too godam-n special to be buried in the family plot" A dig at Lureen, Jack and the money? Sounds like he apparently did'nt think too highly of Jack's people in Childress. Probably jealous because Jack turned out to be a rich Texas businessman, and he was'nt. A few thoughts.
My take is a little different. As far as Jack's father goes, his perception of Jack thinking he was so "G.D." special I think is more of a comment on the relationship between Jack and his mother. There might of been a competition, apparently Mom Twist and Jack shared secrets, had a close relationship that excluded Old man Twist. Jack came between them, apparently the old man felt a great deal of resentment towards Jack. I do think it was easy for Jack to speak about Randall and Ennis to his mother.
Jack's Mom was a "cool customer", she felt Ennis out, see where he was coming from as far as her son was concern. She started him on his way, by letting him go to Jack's room. When he came back with shirts, she understood who loved her son. (sorry for going on a rant about it).
At this point in Jack's life it didn't matter about Lureen, or LaShawn. It was the longing for Ennis, and the availability of Randall, whose very tempting invitation was desirable alternative than those lonely, punishing trips to Mexico. No more anonymous sex with different men, which might have made him feel the painful reality of Ennis absence even more. Just maybe this man could be that life he wanted so much, and keep him out Mexico, even lessening the pain of being without Ennis. Mom may have know all about this struggle in her son's life.
But like the old saying goes "mother knows best".
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Ennis told the old man it was what Jack's wife said he wanted. His respose? " he thought he was too godam-n special to be buried in the family plot" A dig at Lureen, Jack and the money? Sounds like he apparently did'nt think too highly of Jack's people in Childress. Probably jealous because Jack turned out to be a rich Texas businessman, and he was'nt. A few thoughts.
You know, I had never though carefully about any possible tension between Lureen and Jack's folks -- although it would seem "obvious", given the little details in the movie, such as what you say here. I think there is much more to the subject. Thanks for bringing this up!
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My take is a little different. As far as Jack's father goes, his perception of Jack thinking he was so "G.D." special I think is more of a comment on the relationship between Jack and his mother. There might of been a competition, apparently Mom Twist and Jack shared secrets, had a close relationship that excluded Old man Twist. Jack came between them, apparently the old man felt a great deal of resentment towards Jack. I do think it was easy for Jack to speak about Randall and Ennis to his mother.
Jack's Mom was a "cool customer", she felt Ennis out, see where he was coming from as far as her son was concern. She started him on his way, by letting him go to Jack's room. When he came back with shirts, she understood who loved her son. (sorry for going on a rant about it).
At this point in Jack's life it didn't matter about Lureen, or LaShawn. It was the longing for Ennis, and the availability of Randall, whose very tempting invitation was desirable alternative than those lonely, punishing trips to Mexico. No more anonymous sex with different men, which might have made him feel the painful reality of Ennis absence even more. Just maybe this man could be that life he wanted so much, and keep him out Mexico, even lessening the pain of being without Ennis. Mom may have know all about this struggle in her son's life.
But like the old saying goes "mother knows best".
How INTERESTING!
So you read it as a possible point of tension between the husband and the wife? I admit that I had not thought about this either. And we do know that there was tension between the two of them -- at least from the scene when Ennis visits LF...
This rides on the premise that Jack had always identified better with his mother, and that like the "rest" of the world (i.e., with the exception of the mother and Ennis), everyone else didn't seem to believe in Jack, correct?
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How INTERESTING!
So you read it as a possible point of tension between the husband and the wife? I admit that I had not thought about this either. And we do know that there was tension between the two of them -- at least from the scene when Ennis visits LF...
This rides on the premise that Jack had always identified better with his mother, and that like the "rest" of the world (i.e., with the exception of the mother and Ennis), everyone else didn't seem to believe in Jack, correct?
Yes, but she had to know first if Ennis did really loved and understood her son. When he came down with the shirts in hand she knew he did love Jack, and the importance of what he was holding, she found an ally.
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Yes, but she had to know first if Ennis did really loved and understood her son. When he came down with the shirts in hand she knew he did love Jack, and the importance of what he was holding, she found an ally.
Food for thought, MG. You read it as something of a test (sorry if that sound not exactly right, but I hope you get what I mean.)
With reference to the original topic, it would mean that his mother perhaps understood Jack better than most? I do tend to think sometimes that the mother understood the son better than Ennis -- at least until the discovery of the shirts. It was as if she wanted to share with his the key to understanding her sone. Without this key, I don't think Jack would have been understood at all. As everyone else seemed to think, he was just a dreamer..., with no real focal point.
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Food for thought, MG. You read it as something of a test (sorry if that sound not exactly right, but I hope you get what I mean.)
With reference to the original topic, it would mean that his mother perhaps understood Jack better than most? I do tend to think sometimes that the mother understood the son better than Ennis -- at least until the discovery of the shirts. It was as if she wanted to share with his the key to understanding her sone. Without this key, I don't think Jack would have been understood at all. As everyone else seemed to think, he was just a dreamer..., with no real focal point.
Yes, how else was she going to know if this man, whom her son loved so much, loved him in the same way, the shirts and only the shirts could answer that question. The fact he found the shirts, he understood for the first time he was loved. When he went downstairs with them, the bag she gotten without even being asked, the loving care of just placing the shirts in that bag. The thanks Ennis gave her at the door.
All of this done without directly referencing the shirts themselves, but the meaning behind it was understood by both. Now compare that with the old man, who thought of his son with disgust, who had big ideas and nothing to show for it, too "G.D. special", well, he was gonna show him/ his mother he wasn't by burying his ashes on the ranch.
The last indignity he could offer up to his rival.
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That's horrible MG... :-\\ :-\\
Not even when Jack was dead the old Twist showed the minimun affection for his son.....Not only he was gonna do what Jack wished about his ashes, but also he was insulting him before his best friend....That asshole didn't even respect his son in death.
That's so heartbreaking and sad.... :\'( :\'( :\'( Jack never got what he wanted in life and now, because of that stupid man, he didn't got what he had wanted for his death....
Damn...Life was so unfair with my poor Jack. :\'( :\'( :\'( He always gave but never got.
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That's horrible MG... :-\\ :-\\
Not even when Jack was dead the old Twist showed the minimun affection for his son.....Not only he was gonna do what Jack wished about his ashes, but also he was insulting him before his best friend....That asshole didn't even respect his son in death.
That's so heartbreaking and sad.... :\'( :\'( :\'( Jack never got what he wanted in life and now, because of that stupid man, he didn't got what he had wanted for his death....
Damn...Life was so unfair with my poor Jack. :\'( :\'( :\'( He always gave but never got.
:\'( :\'( :\'( yep that was jack
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All of this done without directly referencing the shirts themselves, but the meaning behind it was understood by both. Now compare that with the old man, who thought of his son with disgust, who had big ideas and nothing to show for it, too "G.D. special", well, he was gonna show him/ his mother he wasn't by burying his ashes on the ranch.
The last indignity he could offer up to his rival.
To be "fair" to John Twist, almost everyone else didn't get Jack. What was a disappointment was that he was his father, and should have somehow understood. But I think he remained totally ignorant about the shirts or their significance. If he ever knoew about what was really behind the bond between his son and Ennis, then he chose to ignore it.
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I think OMT was a stubborn man with a limited horizon who believed that everybody was like him;even his son's wishes of going out from his town's few opportunities was a motif of depiction for him.Because he never had appreciate him,never had treated him like he deserved...Everything that was in rapport with Jack was object of his jokes,when not depiction or even hate;his work,his rodeo skills,his marriage,his own son,and of course,his friends.I think he knew or at least,guessed what kind of relationship there was between Jack and Ennis,but this was only a main reason to depict it and forget it;what's more,I think that this was as a reaffirmation of his untrust about Jack,a real knowledge that he wasn't and never would be as he really wanted his son was.For this reason,this always wanted above all to have people's approval,and also Ennis's when they met;I think he had spent half his life trying to show Ennis that he was worth of sharing his life with and,somehow,took his friend's denials as a demeanour in his own value and self esteem.
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To be "fair" to John Twist, almost everyone else didn't get Jack. What was a disappointment was that he was his father, and should have somehow understood. But I think he remained totally ignorant about the shirts or their significance. If he ever knoew about what was really behind the bond between his son and Ennis, then he chose to ignore it.
It was more like a quid pro quo between mom and dad. Ennis did walk out that house with shirts in his hand, and Jack's ashes were buried on the ranch. The old man understood all too well, (I believe). He knew when to hit and where it hurts. The mention of another in Jack's life, his attempts to make something out his life, as far as the old man goes he didn't make much of it. Look at Jack he is the one who actually suffered the world, more so than Ennis. The scorn of Aguirre, the demeaning name of Rodeo, by his father-in-law, being thought of as a pissant by people in business, and the thought of BBM as being a pretend place by Lureen.
It's funny how the old man represents all of how the world saw Jack, except for the two people in his life that loved him.
JMO
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I think OMT was a stubborn man with a limited horizon who believed that everybody was like him;even his son's wishes of going out from his town's few opportunities was a motif of depiction for him.Because he never had appreciate him,never had treated him like he deserved...Everything that was in rapport with Jack was object of his jokes,when not depiction or even hate;his work,his rodeo skills,his marriage,his own son,and of course,his friends.I think he knew or at least,guessed what kind of relationship there was between Jack and Ennis,but this was only a main reason to depict it and forget it;what's more,I think that this was as a reaffirmation of his untrust about Jack,a real knowledge that he wasn't and never would be as he really wanted his son was.For this reason,this always wanted above all to have people's approval,and also Ennis's when they met;I think he had spent half his life trying to show Ennis that he was worth of sharing his life with and,somehow,took his friend's denials as a demeanour in his own value and self esteem.
I do think that itf there was any doubt in Jack's part about his own self-worth, then it may be attributed to the lack of understanding on his father's part. It is a tribute to Jack that he continued to try to prove everyone wrong, even if he inevitably didn't exactly bring his dreams to fruition.
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It was more like a quid pro quo between mom and dad. Ennis did walk out that house with shirts in his hand, and Jack's ashes were buried on the ranch. The old man understood all too well, (I believe). He knew when to hit and where it hurts. The mention of another in Jack's life, his attempts to make something out his life, as far as the old man goes he didn't make much of it. Look at Jack he is the one who actually suffered the world, more so than Ennis. The scorn of Aguirre, the demeaning name of Rodeo, by his father-in-law, being thought of as a pissant by people in business, and the thought of BBM as being a pretend place by Lureen.
It's funny how the old man represents all of how the world saw Jack, except for the two people in his life that loved him.
JMO
But did you think OMT did understand the significance of the shirts? I somehow feel that if he did, he might not have allowed Ennis to leave with them -- out of spite?
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But did you think OMT did understand the significance of the shirts? I somehow feel that if he did, he might not have allowed Ennis to leave with them -- out of spite?
i think you are probably right with that...:( but i wonder if OMT has asked for them to be not taken if Ennis would have taken them anyway?...
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i think you are probably right with that...:( but i wonder if OMT has asked for them to be not taken if Ennis would have taken them anyway?...
When Ennis left Jack's room and went into the kitchen OMT looked at him, but Ennis gave him a quick nasty look, like saying "don't you dare". I'm sure Ennis had taken anyway, no matter what. And, well, at least one of those shirts was his, so OMT had not right to have it. They were an emotional testament from Jack and it was for the one who had been in his mind, heart and soul for 20 years.
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i think you are probably right with that...:( but i wonder if OMT has asked for them to be not taken if Ennis would have taken them anyway?...
I also think Thomas could be right in that OMT didn't know or understand the meaning of the two shirts.But I tend to believe that it was so great the depiction that he had for his son-and mainly knowing his tendences-that they didn't matter to him;neither if Ennis took them nor if they stayed at home.The same than nothing in rapport with Jack had really mattered to him when he was alive.
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I also think Thomas could be right in that OMT didn't know or understand the meaning of the two shirts.But I tend to believe that it was so great the depiction that he had for his son-and mainly knowing his tendences-that they didn't matter to him;neither if Ennis took them nor if they stayed at home.The same than nothing in rapport with Jack had really mattered to him when he was alive.
its amazing how OMT and jack were even related jack and him were so different, jack was so giving and kind...he jsut wasnt. jack was also very different to ma twist IMO she was such a pushover... and ive never seen jack as that type well sometimes with ennis he made sacrifices but he was never pushed over per say and he deffinatly didnt hesitate to give his opinion.
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But did you think OMT did understand the significance of the shirts? I somehow feel that if he did, he might not have allowed Ennis to leave with them -- out of spite?
He may have, and I think he conceded to his wife. But that's not what was important to him, the spiteful thing, the point that he wanted to make was not to have Jack's ashes brought to Brokeback Mountain, the one place Jack wanted to be. The old man wanted to prove that Jack was not so G.D special. The shirts meant nothing to him, the meaning of the shirts meant nothing to him.
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Don't think OMT knew about the shirts. I feel the secret of them was only between Jack and his mom. She knew they were there, hidden away in a place where they would remain in all likelyhood.. undisturbed. I doubt OMT would snoop around Jack's room looking for hidden shirts, and they were not in plain view. Mrs. Twist is the one who prompted Ennis to go up to Jack's room and look around. Only Jack, moms and Ennis knew the real significance of the shirts imo.
I'd hate to think that OMT knew of them, and maybe he'd destroy them or not allow them into the house because it was something Jack cherished. I just feel that if the old man knew, he would take them as an opportunity to hurt Jack and Ennis, cause Mrs. Twist problems etc... Apply his own brand of disapproval on them. He only glanced at what Ennis had in his hands. It would not dawn on him that two shirts from Jack's room had any significance to him imo, maybe as said above that perhaps he thought it was clothing Jack had borrowed from Ennis.
Mrs. Twist knew to keep this secret between her and Jack until they found their rightful intended owner. When Ennis drove up, it was she who came outside to greet him. Not the old man. She knew who he was and no doubt was releived to finally meet him. She could finally give him a gift from Jack, beyond death.
I like the way she just basically cut OMT off when he mentioned Randall to Ennis, perhaps to hurt him. Sent Ennis up to Jack's room to find the truth of the matter despite Randall and what OMT was implying , ....the truth and redemption for Ennis was in the shirts. Jack must have confided in his mother who loved her son. After all is said and done, it's Ennis he loved.
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Jack's room in itself was a key, it was left the way it was when he was boy, the old man could have used it for storage, but it wasn't, his mother kept it that way, and all that was in it, and Jack appreciated that.
Would Ennis have found the shirts, would he understand it meaning, I'm just saying she would have packed them up and gave to him at the door. The beauty of it all was that Ennis had to find it and understand for himself what it meant, and he realize that Jack did love him, and understanding it all on his own.
After that and the shirts were place in the bag, the old man said, " I tell you what, we got a plot, and he's going in it". Was a deal struck?
Poor Jack, wasn't this kind of his story? Never really getting what he wanted. JMO.
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i think you are probably right with that...:( but i wonder if OMT has asked for them to be not taken if Ennis would have taken them anyway?...
I suspect that Ennis would not have taken them. In some ways, Jack was more decisive than Ennis -- in spite of his being looked down upon and castigated (even by Ennis, at times) for dreaming dreams.
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When Ennis left Jack's room and went into the kitchen OMT looked at him, but Ennis gave him a quick nasty look, like saying "don't you dare". I'm sure Ennis had taken anyway, no matter what. And, well, at least one of those shirts was his, so OMT had not right to have it. They were an emotional testament from Jack and it was for the one who had been in his mind, heart and soul for 20 years.
Interesting -- I interpretetd it as a frightened look -- afraid that OMT would take the shirts away from him, and he instinctively held it away from him.
Not to bring this thread out of topic, but I think OMT didn't understand/know the shirts and their significance. Jack was always taken for granted or ignored -- even his father probably didn't realize what he had in his closet or even his room.
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I also think Thomas could be right in that OMT didn't know or understand the meaning of the two shirts.But I tend to believe that it was so great the depiction that he had for his son-and mainly knowing his tendences-that they didn't matter to him;neither if Ennis took them nor if they stayed at home.The same than nothing in rapport with Jack had really mattered to him when he was alive.
Interesting point, MPJ. So you would think that if OMT took the shirts from Ennis, it would be out of pure spite? I am biased in thinking that OMT probably didn't care that much for what his son did or wanted -- but I may be wrong in this...
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He may have, and I think he conceded to his wife. But that's not what was important to him, the spiteful thing, the point that he wanted to make was not to have Jack's ashes brought to Brokeback Mountain, the one place Jack wanted to be. The old man wanted to prove that Jack was not so G.D special. The shirts meant nothing to him, the meaning of the shirts meant nothing to him.
But would you go so far as to say that the ashes meant nothing to him. I would like to think that even OMT had some dignity in assigning some significance to Jack's ashes and where they would eventually rest.
Sometiomes, I wonder whether he resented Jack's "rising" above his life in LF, if you would call marriage to the richer Newsome family a step up. Perhaps he resented this?
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Don't think OMT knew about the shirts. I feel the secret of them was only between Jack and his mom. She knew they were there, hidden away in a place where they would remain in all likelyhood.. undisturbed. I doubt OMT would snoop around Jack's room looking for hidden shirts, and they were not in plain view. Mrs. Twist is the one who prompted Ennis to go up to Jack's room and look around. Only Jack, moms and Ennis knew the real significance of the shirts imo.
I'd hate to think that OMT knew of them, and maybe he'd destroy them or not allow them into the house because it was something Jack cherished. I just feel that if the old man knew, he would take them as an opportunity to hurt Jack and Ennis, cause Mrs. Twist problems etc... Apply his own brand of disapproval on them. He only glanced at what Ennis had in his hands. It would not dawn on him that two shirts from Jack's room had any significance to him imo, maybe as said above that perhaps he thought it was clothing Jack had borrowed from Ennis.
Mrs. Twist knew to keep this secret between her and Jack until they found their rightful intended owner. When Ennis drove up, it was she who came outside to greet him. Not the old man. She knew who he was and no doubt was releived to finally meet him. She could finally give him a gift from Jack, beyond death.
I like the way she just basically cut OMT off when he mentioned Randall to Ennis, perhaps to hurt him. Sent Ennis up to Jack's room to find the truth of the matter despite Randall and what OMT was implying , ....the truth and redemption for Ennis was in the shirts. Jack must have confided in his mother who loved her son. After all is said and done, it's Ennis he loved.
I feel the same way -- about OMT not knowing about the shirts.
You know, all the disrespect and resentment Jack got was terrible -- but perhaps what hurt the most was the lack of confidence OMT had with his son. I think Jack was constantly trying to prove himself to others as a way of showing his old man that he was deserving of his attention. Very very sad.
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Interesting point, MPJ. So you would think that if OMT took the shirts from Ennis, it would be out of pure spite? I am biased in thinking that OMT probably didn't care that much for what his son did or wanted -- but I may be wrong in this...
I don't understand completely what "to be out of spite" means, ~) ;although I get it for the context.What I think is that OMT didn't know anything about the shirts meaning;but that,even if he knew it,he didn't care absolutely...Maybe he wouldn't arrive to the point of taking the shirts from Ennis,mainly because he really depicted their meaning;and if he didn't know or understand this meaning,then what he depicted indeed was his own son.And,of course,everything he could feel,want or do...
I feel the same way -- about OMT not knowing about the shirts.
You know, all the disrespect and resentment Jack got was terrible -- but perhaps what hurt the most was the lack of confidence OMT had with his son. I think Jack was constantly trying to prove himself to others as a way of showing his old man that he was deserving of his attention. Very very sad.
Yes,it's very sad...IMO,Jack was deeply affected for his father's disapproval,so,yes,he constantly tried to show before the others his most valid and capable side.I think that in the innest part of himself,he felt insecure about his own value because his father didn't give him this security,all the contrary.And,of course, Ennis doubts and constant denials during so many years,made this insecurity greater somehow.
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But would you go so far as to say that the ashes meant nothing to him. I would like to think that even OMT had some dignity in assigning some significance to Jack's ashes and where they would eventually rest.
Sometiomes, I wonder whether he resented Jack's "rising" above his life in LF, if you would call marriage to the richer Newsome family a step up. Perhaps he resented this?
I've often felt like this, like OMT felt Jack had risen above his roots, and his father couldn't handle be left behind, never acomplishing much...it actually reminds me of Ennis, when he says, "I'm nothing, I'm nowhere"...like he was resentful of Jack, and what he had..."you forget what it's like to be poor, Jack!"
I feel like Jack spent his whole adult life trying to make the men he loved in his life believe he didn't think he was better then them.
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But would you go so far as to say that the ashes meant nothing to him. I would like to think that even OMT had some dignity in assigning some significance to Jack's ashes and where they would eventually rest.
Sometiomes, I wonder whether he resented Jack's "rising" above his life in LF, if you would call marriage to the richer Newsome family a step up. Perhaps he resented this?
The overriding feeling I get a sense of disappointment, all of Jack's talk came to nothing in the old man's eyes. He listed them to Ennis. Jack was going to bring Ennis Del Mar home, build a house, whip the ranch into shape , then it was the Ranch Foreman, but what happened nothing.
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I don't understand completely what "to be out of spite" means, ~) ;although I get it for the context.What I think is that OMT didn't know anything about the shirts meaning;but that,even if he knew it,he didn't care absolutely...Maybe he wouldn't arrive to the point of taking the shirts from Ennis,mainly because he really depicted their meaning;and if he didn't know or understand this meaning,then what he depicted indeed was his own son.And,of course,everything he could feel,want or do...
Yes,it's very sad...IMO,Jack was deeply affected for his father's disapproval,so,yes,he constantly tried to show before the others his most valid and capable side.I think that in the innest part of himself,he felt insecure about his own value because his father didn't give him this security,all the contrary.And,of course, Ennis doubts and constant denials during so many years,made this insecurity greater somehow.
Well, what I meant was that even if he didn't care, he may yet disallow Ennis to take the shirts -- just to show Ennis who is boss or who calls the shots. Or else, he may just want to do it "out of spite" -- for no good reason but to make Ennis unhappy, just because OMT himself didn't feel any happier about the situation.
And this goes back to OMT NEVER being pleased with anything Jack did -- I have a feeling that for him, nothing Jack would do would ever be good enough. Hence, he resented Jack making special plans on where he wanted his ashes to be scattered. I suspect that Jack was used to never getting any form of affirmation from his dad, but continued trying to get it anyway...
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I've often felt like this, like OMT felt Jack had risen above his roots, and his father couldn't handle be left behind, never acomplishing much...it actually reminds me of Ennis, when he says, "I'm nothing, I'm nowhere"...like he was resentful of Jack, and what he had..."you forget what it's like to be poor, Jack!"
I feel like Jack spent his whole adult life trying to make the men he loved in his life believe he didn't think he was better then them.
Yes, I felt it as some form of insecurity on OMT's part. This is just my opinion, of course. And we know that insecurity breeds contempt.
And your last senetece hits the mark -- IMO. He was constantly battling their preconceptions and a lack of faith in himself. It must have hurt him deeply, even as it bred its own form of insecurity within Jack...
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The overriding feeling I get a sense of disappointment, all of Jack's talk came to nothing in the old man's eyes. He listed them to Ennis. Jack was going to bring Ennis Del Mar home, build a house, whip the ranch into shape , then it was the Ranch Foreman, but what happened nothing.
Yes, other people have said that I have been particularly harsh on OMT and that I should see his great disappointment in Jack at the root of his behavior. I have no doubt that there was a sense of great disappointment in OMT when Ennis visited LF. But I should also note that in a way, he brought all this upon himself and his family. I feel that he was never affirming enough -- perhaps he was even mocking of Jack's dreams. One can forgive other people like the 2 clients who made the disparaging comments about Jack that is the title of this thread. But for his won father to join them in this -- it is sad.
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Yes, other people have said that I have been particularly harsh on OMT and that I should see his great disappointment in Jack at the root of his behavior. I have no doubt that there was a sense of great disappointment in OMT when Ennis visited LF. But I should also note that in a way, he brought all this upon himself and his family. I feel that he was never affirming enough -- perhaps he was even mocking of Jack's dreams. One can forgive other people like the 2 clients who made the disparaging comments about Jack that is the title of this thread. But for his won father to join them in this -- it is sad.
Yes,it's sad,specially when his great disappointment in Jack comes,not from seeing how his son was as he didn't like,but from the very beginning.It seems as he couldn't have any clue about how Jack would be in the future,what was in a great extent in his father's hands and responsability,but he never got satisfied with what he did or thought.What's more,it seems as if OMT didn't want really any babies,so he was willing to depict them no matter how they be...
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Yes, other people have said that I have been particularly harsh on OMT and that I should see his great disappointment in Jack at the root of his behavior. I have no doubt that there was a sense of great disappointment in OMT when Ennis visited LF. But I should also note that in a way, he brought all this upon himself and his family. I feel that he was never affirming enough -- perhaps he was even mocking of Jack's dreams. One can forgive other people like the 2 clients who made the disparaging comments about Jack that is the title of this thread. But for his won father to join them in this -- it is sad.
I also have to admit that I've been just as harsh. But did you think that it wasn't Jack's sexuality a point of contention for the old man. Like it was almost an accepted fact. Jack wanted to bring Ennis, then Randall to openly live together right there in LF, build a house and run the ranch. And that the old man didn't have problem with it, just the fact that Jack never follow through on his plans.
It sounded as if the old man was actually disappointed that it never happened. tpe brings up a point it was the old man that created the rift between himself and Jack, and has himself to blame for that.
Do any of you think that that Jack's father would have accepted his son living there with Ennis, as lovers, life partners, if Ennis relented and did live with Jack?
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Do any of you think that that Jack's father would have accepted his son living there with Ennis, as lovers, life partners, if Ennis relented and did live with Jack?
Wow, that's really interesting MG. Maybe. Jack's dad did seem to stress his annoyance when he said Jack didn't follow through with his plan. I don't think he would of been happy-go-lucky accepting of Jack living with a man, and likely would have made a sarcastic comment any chance he got, but maybe in time, he might have come to accept it.
But mainly I think his annoyance comes from the fact that he's talking about Jack saying he might come back home, but never did, and I think the annoyance in his voice comes more from jealousy that Jack escaped to a (perceived by his dad) better life, not so much from really wishing he had come home...with man in tow :)
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Yes,it's sad,specially when his great disappointment in Jack comes,not from seeing how his son was as he didn't like,but from the very beginning.It seems as he couldn't have any clue about how Jack would be in the future,what was in a great extent in his father's hands and responsability,but he never got satisfied with what he did or thought.What's more,it seems as if OMT didn't want really any babies,so he was willing to depict them no matter how they be...
Perhaps he never intended to be satisfied with anything Jack achieved. This may partly explain why Jack kept on chasing "impossible" dreams.
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I also have to admit that I've been just as harsh. But did you think that it wasn't Jack's sexuality a point of contention for the old man. Like it was almost an accepted fact. Jack wanted to bring Ennis, then Randall to openly live together right there in LF, build a house and run the ranch. And that the old man didn't have problem with it, just the fact that Jack never follow through on his plans.
It sounded as if the old man was actually disappointed that it never happened. tpe brings up a point it was the old man that created the rift between himself and Jack, and has himself to blame for that.
Do any of you think that that Jack's father would have accepted his son living there with Ennis, as lovers, life partners, if Ennis relented and did live with Jack?
I sense that he probably knew or at least had an inkling. But I sometimes question his motive in bringing up the subject of Jack bringing someone back to help them on the ranch. For one, I sense that he never really believed that Jack would do this. (This answers your question, I think -- OMT assumed that Jack was never really talking about reality.) Secondly, I think he brought this up (perhaps) to spite Ennis -- rub it in: that Jack was bringing someone else. I sense that this was his primary intention, although it's only my opinion.
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But mainly I think his annoyance comes from the fact that he's talking about Jack saying he might come back home, but never did, and I think the annoyance in his voice comes more from jealousy that Jack escaped to a (perceived by his dad) better life, not so much from really wishing he had come home...with man in tow :)
I boldface what I think hits the mark -- dead center!
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I sense that he probably knew or at least had an inkling. But I sometimes question his motive in bringing up the subject of Jack bringing someone back to help them on the ranch. For one, I sense that he never really believed that Jack would do this. (This answers your question, I think -- OMT assumed that Jack was never really talking about reality.) Secondly, I think he brought this up (perhaps) to spite Ennis -- rub it in: that Jack was bringing someone else. I sense that this was his primary intention, although it's only my opinion.
I definitly got that impression...like OMT was so angry with who Jack was and all those times he would talk about bringing Ennis there...and I'm sure with the fact that Jack would visit his folks right after he saw Ennis, likely would have given him a sad tone in his voice when saying Ennis' name, possibly making it obvious to his father that he wasn't just talking about some "fishn buddy"...I definitly think his father brought up "another fellow" just to hurt Ennis and try and break a perfect image of Jack he might have had....which I think is how Jack's father saw him, the outter image of perfect, but really not.
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What hurts the most is that OMT not only was insulting his son once again not even stopping now he was death, but he also wanted Ennis, the most precious person for Jack, to hate his son, or at least to think bad about him (that Jack was good for nothing) like he did all his life. OMT was like "don't you dare to think that my son was worth all the pain, that my son love you; don't you dare to love him or to mourn him, because you was nothing for him; Jack was a f*** up, and he already was planning another stupid dream with another man, and it was not you".
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Totally Tammy, OMT couldn't stand how much his son was liked by people. Jack had such an outgoing personality, you know everyone that meet him just loved him...so OMT probably had to hear about how great and funny and outgoing his son was by everyone around him......which was likely followed by "where'd he get that from?" ....it just made him bitter cause he had the personality of a dead fish ::)
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I feel telling Ennis about Randall was a direct reference to what he felt about Jack and Ennis, A dig, About men like his son, gay men. Jack was not only gonna leave his wife, and bring a guy home to LF, he was gonna "build a cabin". That meant Jack and whoever Randall or Ennis, were gonna live in the cabin together while helping around the place. Year after year Jack went home to visit his folks, with no Ennis in tow. Then it turns into some ranch neighbor from Texas, Randall, coming up to LF and he never shows either. Yrs. went past and neither of these guys ever materialized. Jack could'nt fullfill the promises he made to the old man, so imagine his anxiety everytime he went home. No doubt the old man let Jack know about it, chided Jack about it Ennis keeps sayin no way, and Randall, well...who knows.
Now his son is dead, and here is Ennis Del Mar....finally. Finally he gets the opportunity to meet Ennis face to face and take one last swipe at Jack, even in death, with the added bonus of having Ennis there to hear it. "like most of Jack's ideas" , ( he had no idea how bad it got either, how his son was struggling with love), but he was gonna surely make sure that Jack's last wish/idea about the ashes would not be carried out. He gets to keep the ashes ( symbolic of Jack) and manage to attempt to sully the relationship in the face of the one Jack cared for the most, But I think Ennis and OMT understood each other.
Sometimes I've wondered if it were not for the shirts, would Ennis have fought harded to get the ashes rather than leave empty-handed Two stoics battling it out ? gawd! If anyone could go toe toe with OMT it would be Ennis. Not pysically mind you, but both stubborn as mules, strict, set in their ways calculatingly cold as ice when they chose to be. Ennis could melt Ironman with one cold stare alone. Scary..
Thank goodness for Mrs. Twist who led Ennis to the shirts despite what the old man thought. She made sure after all was said and done, and behind the old man's back, Jack had the last word on the matter. Two shirts, displayed in a way that said what Ennis so desperatly needed to hear. *I love you, and I,ve always loved you, always will, * right under the old man's nose! Love, Jack ... Ennis could always track the ashes down later , Mrs. Twist invited him back, with winks and nods, but the knowledge that it was he , not Randall or anyone else, He was the one Jack never stopped loving and that's priceless imo. OMT did'nt know jack...(pun intended) IMO. Thanx.
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Jack was I don't how you would say it but a lot more clever, a dreamer or more of a realist than we think. Unlike Ennis, Jack was able to juggle two separate lives, and did this for twenty years.
His life in Texas on the surface could have been picture perfect. Married into a successful family, worked in the business, had a son, if he wanted to rub the old man nose in it he would have brought them there years before, he never did. His life in LF , he lived was by all appearances openly gay, or an open secret, letting it be know there was someone he wanted to bring home with him, Ennis. Ain't that a "twist".
He made the trip faithfully to BBM, to see the man he loved, but never not once brought Lureen to LF. How could the old man be jealous at something he never saw but only heard about, like he never saw Ennis until after Jack died.
Jack for some reason kept his two lives separate and apart, and patiently waited for Ennis. We think Ennis was complicated, Jack was just as complicated or more in love, or both.
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Now his son is dead, and here is Ennis Del Mar....finally. Finally he gets the opportunity to meet Ennis face to face and take one last swipe at Jack, even in death, with the added bonus of having Ennis there to hear it. "like most of Jack's ideas" , ( he had no idea how bad it got either, how his son was struggling with love), but he was gonna surely make sure that Jack's last wish/idea about the ashes would not be carried out. He gets to keep the ashes ( symbolic of Jack) and manage to attempt to sully the relationship in the face of the one Jack cared for the most, But I think Ennis and OMT understood each other.
Yeah, and that's what I hate the most. Jack never had a change to make his dreams come true, and now his father is making sure that he doesn't got the last one, not even in death. :-\\ :-\\ :-\\
Sometimes I've wondered if it were not for the shirts, would Ennis have fought harded to get the ashes rather than leave empty-handed Two stoics battling it out ? gawd! If anyone could go toe toe with OMT it would be Ennis. Not pysically mind you, but both stubborn as mules, strict, set in their ways calculatingly cold as ice when they chose to be. Ennis could melt Ironman with one cold stare alone. Scary..
Thank goodness for Mrs. Twist who led Ennis to the shirts despite what the old man thought. She made sure after all was said and done, and behind the old man's back, Jack had the last word on the matter. Two shirts, displayed in a way that said what Ennis so desperatly needed to hear. *I love you, and I,ve always loved you, always will, * right under the old man's nose! Love, Jack ... Ennis could always track the ashes down later , Mrs. Twist invited him back, with winks and nods, but the knowledge that it was he , not Randall or anyone else, He was the one Jack never stopped loving and that's priceless imo. OMT did'nt know jack...(pun intended) IMO. Thanx.
Beautiful, AF. Love your post. ^f^
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Thank you Baby Tammy.,
I never understood how Lureen could just sit there and allow her husband Jack to be called a pissant by a coupla idiots. Says alot about her. Sure, I know they were clients or potential clients, but why allow these jerks to get away with this? She was in rodeo herself, but she did'nt stick up for Jack . Obviously they did'nt know Jack was her husband out there doing his job as a combine salesman, a darn good one at that. She should've set the record straight and defended Jack if she loved him. No wonder he was willing to leave Childress at the drop of a hat if Ennis said so . People were so judgemental of him, and not in a good, positive way.
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Thanks friends. I do agree with ost of your comments, although I must say for the sake of balance that many other members didn't see OMT as particularly vindictive. As some of you had stated, many other members in previous threads (i.e., the one about OMT) thought that OMT was more disappointed about Jack not being able to help out in the rance.
Whatever we believe in, I think it is safe to say that OMT -- like most of the other people in the film -- looked down at or was condescending to Jack. It was clear that most of the people didn't think that much of him -- Lureen included.
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I know it seems like people are a bit hard on OMT after just seeing him in one scene, but I think a lot of our feelings come from things Jack said, and things in the short story also. Our feelings tend to mirriors Jack's feelings...he felt his father looked down on him, and never supported him in his activities("never came to see him ride").
It's not just from that one scene, in fact I feel sometimes that OMT's harsh reaction when talking about Jack to Ennis came from his own dissapointment and regrete. He knew he treated Jack wrong, and he had to live through one of the worst fates in life...out-living your child.
He was bitter....and mad...most likely at himself...but he had to punish someone; enter Ennis, with nothing left but Jack's memory.
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I know it seems like people are a bit hard on OMT after just seeing him in one scene, but I think a lot of our feelings come from things Jack said, and things in the short story also. Our feelings tend to mirriors Jack's feelings...he felt his father looked down on him, and never supported him in his activities("never came to see him ride").
It's not just from that one scene, in fact I feel sometimes that OMT's harsh reaction when talking about Jack to Ennis came from his own dissapointment and regrete. He knew he treated Jack wrong, and he had to live through one of the worst fates in life...out-living your child.
He was bitter....and mad...most likely at himself...but he had to punish someone; enter Ennis, with nothing left but Jack's memory.
Very interesting thoughts, Jess. You may be right -- that there was also an element of guilt in OMT. And perhaps the reaction was to find a scapegoat, for what he should be pinning on himself?
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After all those years,and after Jack's death, Ennis was bought into Jack's world. Jack lived long enough in Ennis's world, in the wake of the legacy his father left him, Alma, the girls, the divorce. Jack was introduced to every part of Ennis life, but how much did Ennis understood Jack's life, really, not much. Ennis saw the first time the reality of Jack's world, and it wasn't until Jack died.
When Ennis made the phone call to Lureen, it was like they were introducing themselves to a Jack they didn't know. Lureen didn't know that they herded sheep the summer of '63, and Brokeback Mountain was not some place of fantasy. Ennis didn't know that Jack spoke of Brokeback as a place where he was happy. When Ennis got in his truck and actually left security of Riverton, and go to Jack's parents. They knew who he was, that someone Jack wanted to bring home, and to live with. Ennis wasn't a secret, he was known.
After twenty years, it was Jack's death, that Ennis saw the life of his Lover, but also saw his faithfulness to him, how important he was to him and how he loved him.
I don't think anyone really took the time to see who Jack Twist really was, but his life changed so many around him.
JMO.
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After all those years,and after Jack's death, Ennis was bought into Jack's world. Jack lived long enough in Ennis's world, in the wake of the legacy his father left him, Alma, the girls, the divorce. Jack was introduced to every part of Ennis life, but how much did Ennis understood Jack's life, really, not much. Ennis saw the first time the reality of Jack's world, and it wasn't until Jack died.
When Ennis made the phone call to Lureen, it was like they were introducing themselves to a Jack they didn't know. Lureen didn't know that they herded sheep the summer of '63, and Brokeback Mountain was not some place of fantasy. Ennis didn't know that Jack spoke of Brokeback as a place where he was happy. When Ennis got in his truck and actually left security of Riverton, and go to Jack's parents. They knew who he was, that someone Jack wanted to bring home, and to live with. Ennis wasn't a secret, he was known.
After twenty years, it was Jack's death, that Ennis saw the life of his Lover, but also saw his faithfulness to him, how important he was to him and how he loved him.
I don't think anyone really took the time to see who Jack Twist really was, but his life changed so many around him.
JMO.
I love how you stated all this..so true.. what Jack was trying to say may have been heard more in death than they were in life.
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After all those years,and after Jack's death, Ennis was bought into Jack's world. Jack lived long enough in Ennis's world, in the wake of the legacy his father left him, Alma, the girls, the divorce. Jack was introduced to every part of Ennis life, but how much did Ennis understood Jack's life, really, not much. Ennis saw the first time the reality of Jack's world, and it wasn't until Jack died.
When Ennis made the phone call to Lureen, it was like they were introducing themselves to a Jack they didn't know. Lureen didn't know that they herded sheep the summer of '63, and Brokeback Mountain was not some place of fantasy. Ennis didn't know that Jack spoke of Brokeback as a place where he was happy. When Ennis got in his truck and actually left security of Riverton, and go to Jack's parents. They knew who he was, that someone Jack wanted to bring home, and to live with. Ennis wasn't a secret, he was known.
After twenty years, it was Jack's death, that Ennis saw the life of his Lover, but also saw his faithfulness to him, how important he was to him and how he loved him.
I don't think anyone really took the time to see who Jack Twist really was, but his life changed so many around him.
JMO.
I love how you stated all this..so true.. what Jack was trying to say may have been heard more in death than they were in life.
So so true. Jack made a difference in so many lives, but never really got any credit for it. Sadly, many didn't even credit him anything after he died...
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So so true. Jack made a difference in so many lives, but never really got any credit for it. Sadly, many didn't even credit him anything after he died...
:\'( very sad but very true...
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:\'( very sad but very true...
I think this made him what he is. He was more sensitive than most because he knew what it was like being ignored or taken for granted. It enabled him to dream big, even though "reality" was against most of his plans. And most of all, I think it taught him tenacity. We think of Jack as a dreamer. But he had a lot of tenacity -- much more than your typcal dreamer.
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I think this made him what he is. He was more sensitive than most because he knew what it was like being ignored or taken for granted.
I agree Thomas :)
What I love and respect most about Jack is the fact that even while his whole life people had told him that he didn't deserve to have what he wanted and that he just wasn't enough in general, he still believed in himself. He wasn't enough for his father to respect him...he wasn't enough to be a succussful bull riding star.....and most importantly, he wasn't enough for Ennis to ignore his fears and be with him....
But he still insisted that he deserved these things. He never stoped telling Ennis he wanted more, even up until their final conversation, it was Jack standing up for himself saying he deserved more than a couple times a year...he deserved a sweet life.
He put up with the negatives in his life, but he never believed he didn't deserve more.
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The fact that he wanted more and strove for more can certainly be attributed in part to show people that they were wrong about him.
But I think the greater part of this springs from jack being a more affirming and self-affirming type of person. Such people usually end up badly, but they are the ones who change the world in the long run. To be sure, Jack changed Ennis in the long run.
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The fact that he wanted more and strove for more can certainly be attributed in part to show people that they were wrong about him. But I think the greater part of this springs from jack being a more affirming and self-affirming type of person. Such people usually end up badly, but they are the ones who change the world in the long run. To be sure, Jack changed Ennis in the long run.
Yes,I've always seen Jack as someone who spent all his life doing a kind of obstacles race,with the goal of showing the others that he was able enough in all he tried.That he deserved indeed to be more successful in all he did,and if he wasn't,it wasn't for his lack of good qualities.And also that,sometimes,he used his more outgoing and expressive way of being as a disguise to attract people more,to feel himself more loved and admired somehow.But,yes,his best goal was changing Ennis in the long run; even if,one more time,he didn't see it being alive as to consider himself a winner in something. :\'(
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The fact that he wanted more and strove for more can certainly be attributed in part to show people that they were wrong about him.
But I think the greater part of this springs from jack being a more affirming and self-affirming type of person. Such people usually end up badly, but they are the ones who change the world in the long run. To be sure, Jack changed Ennis in the long run.
I loved that Thomas. Yes those are usually the people that end up changing things around them for the better...and sadly, they are also the ones that usually never get to see the outcomes of their accomplishments :\'(
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Thanks MPJ and jess.
We just have to look at history, and see that the greatest winners in the long run and the biggest losers in the short term.
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We just have to look at history, and see that the greatest winners in the long run and the biggest losers in the short term.
Beautiful, Thomas. ^f^
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Thanks Tammy. Truly, great and good men seldom taste the fruits of their dreams. In the case of Jack, we was not all that great and he was not all that good, but he sowed enough for Ennis to reap and nourish him in the long twilight long after the sower and the dreams had gone away.