Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: alicat on Feb 14, 2006, 01:48 PM
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I think it is difficult to tell as, due to time constraints, the film omits scenes in the build-up which could have provided clues.
For me, Ennis falls quicker and harder than Jack; I am assuming Ennis was already head over heels for Jack well before they slept together, judging by how he touched and kissed Jack on the second night - Ennis touched Jack as though he were made of gold, as if he was thinking, 'Lover, I don't ever want to let you go'. I think with Jack, it is more difficult to tell. But I think they were both pretty smitten on the evening they shared the whiskey, when Jack smiles and says 'That's the most words you've said these past two weeks.' And then proceeds to fall over and make Ennis laugh - priceless!
I think as well that, although love was not instantaneous, the sexual attraction was.
Any thoughts?
Alicat xx
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I think it happened pretty fast. For Jack it was at the time of the potato peeling, had he not been in love there, just lust, he woulda snuk a peak... for Ennis? hard to say, have to watch it again :)
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For me Ennis MUST have fallen for Jack before the 2nd night together. After the 1st night hes goes out to tend the sheep finding one of them killed (through his own actions), Ennis as we know is the pragmatist, and yet he leaves the sheep again to be with Jack-i find that contradictory to what i know of his character up to that point. He loves Jack 'sheep be damned'. I'm struggling to find an answer to when Jack fell for Ennis, hes so much more a demonstrative, open guy x
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Think this means the film have to bee seen againg at least a couple of times :)
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Think this means the film have to bee seen againg at least a couple of times :)
Me too! Any excuse! ;D
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They were obviously attracted to each other from the start..esp. in the trailer when Aguirre is on the phone. They were friendly, supportive, caring and funny with each other. As far as love goes, maybe not until the 2nd tent scene :'(..these characters were so young...
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Well, Ennis seems to be smitten because he wanted to make Jack happy by getting soup--which Ennis doesn't eat. One of the most touching love scenes to me was when the boys had to unmix the sheep. Ennis the pragmatic and voice of reason reminds Jack that they might have to work for Aguirre again and that they need to stick it out. Just the way he says : "We gotta stick it out Jack" This is an obvious reference to their relationship as well.
I think Ennis fell in love quickly as he found companionship where none was expected in that Jack was fun, outgoing, nice to look at, and caring. When Jack sees Ennis bloody head, his "Ennis, what happened?" is delivered such a caring and loving way.
In short: Jack was hot for Ennis right away and found himself in love. Ennis was the opposite. He fell in love and was hot for Jack.
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Was there something there from the very beginning? Were they drawn together, even while waiting outside the trailer? When they were spending their first nights up the mountain and Jack was sleeping with the sheep, Ennis offered to trade jobs to make Jack happier. They cook for eachother and share conversations. Maybe they were drawn together without knowing.
Jim
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Yes, I too think that they got those *sparkles* from the very first moments they meet. But I think Ennis didn't really pay much attention to his feeling (as he is a type of person like that), but from Jack it's almost obvious.
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Thanks everyone for your (as usual) brilliant replies and observations...it has given me food for thought. Just one query to whoever said that Jack not sneaking a look at Ennis getting washed meant he was in love rather than lust - why does this signify love? I am not disagreeing at all, just interested in how you came to that conclusion. I sensed he very much WANTED to look, but he forced himself not to - it seemed almost like he could not bring himself to look as that would've triggered something in him which he was trying to suppress. But I am interested in why this signifies more than sexual attraction.
Alicat (who loves this board and all who post on her!) ;D
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Thanks everyone for your (as usual) brilliant replies and observations...it has given me food for thought. Just one query to whoever said that Jack not sneaking a look at Ennis getting washed meant he was in love rather than lust - why does this signify love? I am not disagreeing at all, just interested in how you came to that conclusion. I sensed he very much WANTED to look, but he forced himself not to - it seemed almost like he could not bring himself to look as that would've triggered something in him which he was trying to suppress. But I am interested in why this signifies more than sexual attraction.
Alicat (who loves this board and all who post on her!) ;D
I think that was me. I just felt that he was trying so hard not to look so he wouldn't scare Ennis if Ennis saw him looking. If it was just lust he wouldn't have cared. i just know that the more I like a man the more I try to hide it before I know what he feels for me. If I lust after a man then I go straight for him ;)
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I think infatuation happens very quickly. From the very moment that Jack says "your folks stop at Ennis?" I feel like Jack is teasing in a way that Ennis isn't used to, and I think Ennis likes it. Also Jack's kind of clumsy bravado (getting the horse that "can't" buck him), ineffective shots etc -- I think Ennis kind of likes that about him. It makes him smile.
There is a reason beyond the fact that they were the only two stuck up there that they fell for each other. I believe Jack teases out personality that Ennis doesn't even know he has. I mean who doesn't love the person that makes us different in a good way than we thought we were (sorry, I'm getting really inarticulate). Jack makes Ennis TRANSCEND himself. I suspect he's more thoughtful (getting the soup, shooting meat because Jack won't eat beans), laughs more, talks more, shares himself. Throw in incredible sex, and you get LOVE.
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I think infatuation happens very quickly. From the very moment that Jack says "your folks stop at Ennis?" I feel like Jack is teasing in a way that Ennis isn't used to, and I think Ennis likes it. Also Jack's kind of clumsy bravado (getting the horse that "can't" buck him), ineffective shots etc -- I think Ennis kind of likes that about him. It makes him smile.
There is a reason beyond the fact that they were the only two stuck up there that they fell for each other. I believe Jack teases out personality that Ennis doesn't even know he has. I mean who doesn't love the person that makes us different in a good way than we thought we were (sorry, I'm getting really inarticulate). Jack makes Ennis TRANSCEND himself. I suspect he's more thoughtful (getting the soup, shooting meat because Jack won't eat beans), laughs more, talks more, shares himself. Throw in incredible sex, and you get LOVE.
Hi Kristob,
A great description which helps explain things for me. I do see that Ennis started to love Jack, as he asked for soup etc and he shot the animal (cos Jack wouldn't eat beans). I agree that is was the things which made Ennis transcend himself which made him love Jack: he was very inarticulate and very serious, which Jack was not - Jack sang songs and joked around and Ennis responded to that and I think that made Ennis warm to Jack. But it is the second tent scene which I feel really shows Ennis's love: after their first sex, Ennis said, 'I ain't no queer' yet he goes into the tent on the second nigh and holds and kisses Jack as though he is the most precious thing on earth. I love that scene because it shows that, despite his protestations, he is very much in love.
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But it is the second tent scene which I feel really shows Ennis's love: after their first sex, Ennis said, 'I ain't no queer' yet he goes into the tent on the second nigh and holds and kisses Jack as though he is the most precious thing on earth. I love that scene because it shows that, despite his protestations, he is very much in love.
Right.
I think that is when the love really starts. The infatuation is the teasing, frolicking fun. But I think you are right, it is when Ennis FINALLY allows himself to be vulnerable (probably for the first time in his life) that the relationship turns to love. Isn't that much of what love is? Letting others see our vulnerability. Trusting them to handle with care? It's a beautiful beautiful scene. Sweet, loving, caring, kind. More perfection.
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But it is the second tent scene which I feel really shows Ennis's love: after their first sex, Ennis said, 'I ain't no queer' yet he goes into the tent on the second nigh and holds and kisses Jack as though he is the most precious thing on earth. I love that scene because it shows that, despite his protestations, he is very much in love.
Right.
I think that is when the love really starts. The infatuation is the teasing, frolicking fun. But I think you are right, it is when Ennis FINALLY allows himself to be vulnerable (probably for the first time in his life) that the relationship turns to love. Isn't that much of what love is? Letting others see our vulnerability. Trusting them to handle with care? It's a beautiful beautiful scene. Sweet, loving, caring, kind. More perfection.
Kcristob,
Your words made me cry :(
I do think also that Ennis felt love from that moment on - that is when he let himself be vulnerable for probably the first time ever. Which makes me want to ask you this: do you think it would have been possible for Ennis to fall for someone else he was on Brokeback with (assuming that person was similar to Jack in terms of personality). I guess what I am yearning to know is: is it possible that Ennis fell for the 'idea' or 'package' of love and that could have been anyone who was available and attractive at that time? I don't just mean anyone would do, but I guess I mean, was Ennis really in love with Jack, or more in love with the idea of Jack, the acceptance and total love which Jack offered him... i hope you understand what i am asking.lol I am not even sure if i understand my own question.
Alicat xx
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Which makes me want to ask you this: do you think it would have been possible for Ennis to fall for someone else he was on Brokeback with (assuming that person was similar to Jack in terms of personality). I guess what I am yearning to know is: is it possible that Ennis fell for the 'idea' or 'package' of love and that could have been anyone who was available and attractive at that time? I don't just mean anyone would do, but I guess I mean, was Ennis really in love with Jack, or more in love with the idea of Jack, the acceptance and total love which Jack offered him... i hope you understand what i am asking.lol I am not even sure if i understand my own question.
Alicat xx
I think that is a very good question. I'm certainly no expert on the subject (although at the rate that I continue to see this movie, I may be eventually). And, my own personal philosophy is that there often is more than just one true love in a lifetime. I've been lucky enough (and I mean that) to experience "it" more than once. so that colors my answer:
The short answer is "yes." I think Ennis probably could have fallen in love with another. But certainly not just anyone. And, your question about whether Ennis was in love with Jack - again YES! Jack had what it took to bring Ennis to love. There was that unique combination that was Jack" and Jack had something Ennis needed [playfulness, passion, openness, honesty, vulnerability]. And we know that Ennis NEVER strayed from jack (while the same isn't true for Jack). In fact, it could be said that Ennis strayed FOR Jack (from his marriage). Very loyal.
"the acceptance and total love which Jack offered him" That's part of it. I also think that it is what Jack managed to get Ennis to offer HIM that resonated with Ennis. I doubt if too many people on the planet could have gotten Ennis to be vulnerable with them.
But, having said yes about the possibility of Ennis falling in love with another, I do want to say that my belief is that he was pretty much heterosexual. I think he was a straight man who fell in love with another man. So, I don't think being on the mountain with a man was particularly compelling for Ennis. It was being with Jack! Just my opinion.
Sorry moderators, I think I got a bit off topic!
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I think Ms. Proulx makes the moment of falling in love in the story pretty clear, at least from Ennis' point of view. Please especially note the last sentence of this passage:
They had a high-time supper by the fire, a can of beans each, fried potatoes, and a quart of whiskey on shares, sat with their backs against a log, boot soles and copper jeans rivets hot, swapping the bottle while the lavender sky emptied of color and the chill air drained down, drinking, smoking cigarettes, getting up every now and then to piss, firelight throwing a sparkle in the arched stream, tossing sticks on the fire to keep the talk going, talking horses and rodeo, rough-stock events, wrecks and injuries sustained, the submarine Thresher lost two months earlier with all hands and how it must have been in the last doomed minutes, dogs each had owned and known, the military service, Jack’s home ranch, where his father and mother held on, Ennis’s family place, folded years ago after his folks died, the older brother in Signal and a married sister in Casper. Jack said his father had been a pretty well-known bull rider years back but kept his secrets to himself, never gave Jack a word of advice, never came once to see Jack ride, though he had put him on the woollies when he was a little kid. Ennis said the kind of riding that interested him lasted longer than eight seconds and had some point to it. Money’s a good point, said Jack, and Ennis had to agree. They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected. Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken light, thought he’d never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.
Good Lord that woman can write. Allan
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I think the air was crackling from the first frame of the movie, but neither of them knew what was going on. They tried the usual cowboy buddy approach, but the first "high altitude f*ck", a fairly common way for gay men to say "I like you", opened the door to real romantic love. The real love comes fast - a really short road to "lil darlin".
I've thought, too, about their mating rituals - pretty foreign stuff to an urban guy like me - which probably adds to the romance of the film. Hunting? I couldn't tell an elk from a taxicab!
JB :D
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I couldn't tell an elk from a taxicab!
JB :D
Ouch....I hope you check before trying to ride the elk.....
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I think Ms. Proulx makes the moment of falling in love in the story pretty clear, at least from Ennis' point of view.
Good Lord that woman can write. Allan
Amen bro, she is awesome. She puts into a few words what others take pages to tell.
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The seeds of their 20 year love were sown right after they were hired at the bar. They were watered by laughter, smiles, shared common experiences, and yes, even tears. It was tended by both each in their own way, and it flourished despite great adversities. It endured.
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I reckon there was an attraction on behalf of Jack the moment he laid eyes on Ennis.
But I think Love entered the equation about the time Ennis opened up to Jack around the fire, and finally said "That's more than I've said in years". At that point I think Jack had really gotten to Ennis and they were both enjoying each other. My heart likes to think that Ennis had never opened up to anyone before, and his smirk hints at him taking quite pleasure in letting Jack know the details of his past. He knows (or at least hopes) that Jack will interpret his candour as a sign of his growing affection/trust, and in a cute kind of way I believe this is Ennis making "the first move". From that point on, I think sexual contact is inevitable. Jack may not have been so bold as to put Ennis hand on his erection otherwise.
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Don't forget that this was Jack's second summer working for Aguirre on Brokeback and that they always worked in pairs. I reckon that Jack had some sexual experiences with his partner during the previous year and assumes that the same will happen again wioth the new one. That would explain the was he checks out Ennis on first meeting. When he grabs Ennis' hand in the tent and pulls it to his erection, he's probably repeating what was done to him the year before. Ennis, typical of a lad his age sleeping with another, obviously has an erection too. Although he pulls away from Jack the moment he's startled in awareness, he very soon grasps Jack's head in a fairly intimate way. He may well have been dreaming of a sexual encounter despite himself. Therefore he's ready to ride.
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^^You make some very excellent points, lachlan. Perhaps Jack did have a sexual experience with the person from the previous summer. It would make sense, for the reasons you stated.
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No wonder Jack had that a look of anticipation.
He did, didn't he?
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I reckon there was an attraction on behalf of Jack the moment he laid eyes on Ennis.
But I think Love entered the equation about the time Ennis opened up to Jack around the fire, and finally said "That's more than I've said in years". At that point I think Jack had really gotten to Ennis and they were both enjoying each other. My heart likes to think that Ennis had never opened up to anyone before, and his smirk hints at him taking quite pleasure in letting Jack know the details of his past. He knows (or at least hopes) that Jack will interpret his candour as a sign of his growing affection/trust, and in a cute kind of way I believe this is Ennis making "the first move". From that point on, I think sexual contact is inevitable. Jack may not have been so bold as to put Ennis hand on his erection otherwise.
Good point
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As obvious as the pitched tent in Jacks trousers !!!
E-U-R-E-K-A !!! I believe I have stumbled on a whole new thread to present to the board members to ponder.
Example......
When Ennis is inspecting the tent which Jack assembled,then remarks "Something don't seem rawght".Does it symbolize and prefigure Ennis thoughts the moment he awakens to find his hand on Jacks pitched tent?
Does the pup tent( Versus a full tent) surrounded by snow symbolize Ennis limpness because his paradise with Jack is about to end?.................... ;D
I am not so sure if any symbolism was intended in those scenes, but it is quite tempting to read something in each of them.
The "Tent don't seem right" scene and the beautiful snow scene does seem to prefigure things to come. I assume that they had already started to fall in love before those scenes, and so each of them may be read in a way that would reflect some internal state of mind.
I certainly thought that the "tend don't seem right" does seem to invite a connection with thwe FNIT, and the snow scene of course preceded their premature departure from the Mountain...
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Certainly for me at least the scene after the encounter with the bear shows an emotion beyond mere liking or friendship, when Jack goes to clean up Ennis's face. That sems to be a lover-like gesture.
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Hiya friend tpe !!
I did understand those scenes had deeper meaning to them.Honestly though, I thought my comment above didn't warrent a reply and certainly wasn't going to garner more than a chuckle since what I said was in jest.
Just the same tpe..Its restful assurance members can rely on you and feel thier comments will be validated no matter how minor they feel they may be.
HiAltShag , I am sure we are not the only ones here who felt the same way about these scenes. It's just interesting to note that we sense similar affinities in these scenes. In fact, I would wager that most of the nuances that hint at their budding love were seen and appreciated by the majority here. :)
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Wow, another great topic. I think when Jack first saw Ennis, his mind screamed Ho-lee Shit! Who's this? Then tried to play it off. He soon found out about Ennis's quiet manner and backed off as not to be so obvious or not to scare him off, but I think he was at least smitten from the very beginning.
Ennis on the other hand showed his true colors during the bucking horse scene. That stare as Jack tried to get the horse under control was telling + that lean over to watch Jack ride out left no doubt that Ennis liked what he saw. By the time of the bear scene/nursing Ennis ,Jack was already in love.
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It's true too that onlookers often see people falling in love when the two involved aren't yet aware of it. We see Jack falling in love though I don't know whan he realises himself that's what it is; Ennis however much he may sense the truth never admits it to himself till Jack is dead. But long before they leave the mountain they have found each other.
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I do suspect that the attraction between the two of them was immediate. The glances they exchanged in Aguirre's trailer is most telling. But when did attraction first blossom into love? It is a wonderful question worth exploring. :)
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I have a feeling that there is often a strong physical atraction between two people long before they love each other - in fact the physical thing may even subside before it becomes obvious that it's mutated into love, which is lasting and less violent than physical desire. Physical closeness can remain a part of it - it does with Jack and Ennis - but once more lasting emotions are involved involvement and commitment grow.
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I think that Annie Proulx tried to settle this issue, at least in regard to Ennis, in the short story on their night in the Motel Siesta. Ennis makes it pretty clear that he hadn't realised how attached he was to Jack until some time after they parted company in Signal; then it was too late to resume the relationship. In her discussion about the transformation from story to screenplay, Proulx stresses that her original intention was to use that scene as central to the entire narrative, thus dispelling many of the primary ambiguities. According to her, it was Ang Lee who shifted much of the dialogue and the revelations to a later point in the plot. I'd love to see how the screenplay read up until Lee made that shift. There must be copies around as it was at least six years in circulation before Ang Lee took it on.
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I have a feeling that there is often a strong physical atraction between two people long before they love each other - in fact the physical thing may even subside before it becomes obvious that it's mutated into love, which is lasting and less violent than physical desire. Physical closeness can remain a part of it - it does with Jack and Ennis - but once more lasting emotions are involved involvement and commitment grow.
Remember when Jack confessed to Ennis "I miss you so much sometimes, I can hardly stand it". Its physical and indeed emotional.
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I think that Annie Proulx tried to settle this issue, at least in regard to Ennis, in the short story on their night in the Motel Siesta. Ennis makes it pretty clear that he hadn't realised how attached he was to Jack until some time after they parted company in Signal; then it was too late to resume the relationship. In her discussion about the transformation from story to screenplay, Proulx stresses that her original intention was to use that scene as central to the entire narrative, thus dispelling many of the primary ambiguities. According to her, it was Ang Lee who shifted much of the dialogue and the revelations to a later point in the plot. I'd love to see how the screenplay read up until Lee made that shift. There must be copies around as it was at least six years in circulation before Ang Lee took it on.
Hello lachlan. I would agree that one could interpret the reunion as the exact point where we can definitively say that Ennis and Jack realized that they were in love. Not to discount earlier possibilities, but I do think that the reunion signalled a realization in both Ennis and Jack that they could not set themselves apart forever.
OT: Proulx has of course mentioned that she fought the change where part of the Motel dialog was shifted later to the scene up in the mountains ("You know it could be like this...") But in her essay that accompanies the screenplay, she did finally admit that the shifted dialog did work cinematically. The shift was not very great, but I think it did work.
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The FNIT, SNIT, The reunion scene ,and the Dozy embrace stand out as scenes of acceptance of one or the other's feelings of unmistakable love...and the willingness to act on it no doubt. In other scenes we see the struggle to sustain it.I feel the attraction was there from the beginning, but by SNIT in tent I think they both realized they were in love , the eyes spoke volumes no question about it imo.
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For me:
The FNIT, was Ennis's sexual awakening. Ennis felt it when Jack took his hand, Ennis didn't think, but acted instinctively. Ennis took Jack naturally, without instruction. Jack submitted to him. But did they understand this was how it was going to be from now on? And up until this point, did Ennis understand this over whelming urge and did he ever feel this for Alma?
The SNIT, Jack guided Ennis, Jack showed Ennis in the ways of making love, the first kiss, arkward, gentle, Jack's assurances that its all right. Ennis totally giving into Jack's body, touching him, smelling him, feeling him. And most importantly the trust they had to have for each other in taking such a step as this. This was intimacy. There was no turning back for either of them, and they knew it.
The "dozy embrace" was totally Jack's understanding of love they had. What was Ennis's "dozy embrace"? I didn't see it. Was it there? I didn't see anything symbolizing Ennis acknowledgement of what they had, until after Jack died, and still it was a symbol more attributed to Jack then to Ennis.
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For me:
The FNIT, was Ennis's sexual awakening. Ennis felt it when Jack took his hand, Ennis didn't think, but acted instinctively. Ennis took Jack naturally, without instruction. Jack submitted to him. But did they understand this was how it was going to be from now on? And up until this point, did Ennis understand this over whelming urge and did he ever feel this for Alma?
The SNIT, Jack guided Ennis, Jack showed Ennis in the ways of making love, the first kiss, arkward, gentle, Jack's assurances that its all right. Ennis totally giving into Jack's body, touching him, smelling him, feeling him. And most importantly the trust they had to have for each other in taking such a step as this. This was intimacy. There was no turning back for either of them, and they knew it.
The "dozy embrace" was totally Jack's understanding of love they had. What was Ennis's "dozy embrace"? I didn't see it. Was it there? I didn't see anything symbolizing Ennis acknowledgement of what they had, until after Jack died, and still it was a symbol more attributed to Jack then to Ennis.
Oh Yeah. Nice guy that Jack.
Jack pretty well FUC*ED things up for Ennis. Screwed up his head and his life. Knew he was engaged yet ,like the clever and shrewd coyote he was,dismissed the fact and manipulated his way into Ennis confidance,took advantage of his insecurities and loneliness,waited until the right moment at night or early morning when he was so drunk he couldn't even stand,finally got Ennis into the tent then offered himself up to satisfy his carnal desires and snatch away Ennis virginity from Alma.Something that what was rightfully her due from her bethrothed.When Alma finally got to enjoy her husband he had already been fully conditioned phyically and emotionally to equate the act anally by association of nearly a full summer with Jack. When Ennis would turn Alma on her belly he didn't feel he was degrading her since he associated it with the type of love making he did with his very first and only partner.God only knows how many partners Jack had prior to Ennis.As if enough damage wasn't done, he pursued Ennis even after they both had married.
I guess Ennis should have completely disregarded all possible ramaifications upon his daughters if they couldn't accept their fathers taking up with a man.Certainly his daughters peers unacceptance would have created a good ole time for all.If things turned out so badly for Jack because Ennis kept him at a distance ,exactly what the hell should he have expected? YEAH,that Jack was some "thinker".
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Oh that terrible Jack the "sexinator", goes around making Innocent unsuspecting victims into raving sexually confused repressive depressives. No, that is not my point.
All I wanted to know what was it that brought Ennis to understanding of his love for Jack. And some of us get so upset at the fact that Ennis was engaged, how many times have we done things that we thought we supposed to do, and come up against something that seem more right than anything else? Would we be so incensed if this was another woman? I really don't think so, our overwhelming refrain would be "follow your heart my boy". And as for being drunk is an idea I really never bought into. Believe me he's probably been drunk before, knew what is was and how to deal.
Is Ennis so mentally deficient, that he doesn't know what is going on, but aware more than most of the dangerous ground he was walking, and treaded lightly, because of that fear. Still trying to hold on to the one thing that mattered to him, and it mattered, Jack mattered. His love for him mattered to him. All I wanted to if there was someting that show his love for Jack, if there was symbol something I missed. But I understand now, just loving Jack, fighting to keep it, under the strain of his fears, is a sort testament in itself.
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But I understand now, just loving Jack, fighting to keep it, under the strain of his fears, is a sort testament in itself.
Beautifully put manhattangirl. O0
As to when he first fell in love with Jack, I guess that's hard to quantify. And there's when he fell in love as compared to when he realized it was love. I don't think he truly understood and appreciated what they had until Jack died. But I always thought the "ain't no reins" scene was an indicator of how strongly he felt about Jack. And the short story gives us a lot of clues. The 'headlong, irreversible fall' he felt at the end of the first summer, telling Jack at the reunion scene how bad he felt at that time and that it "Took me about a year to figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights." And in the movie, I think the SNIT showed him opening up to Jack and choosing to be in the relationship in a way that was so much more intimate and tender than the FNIT that I always took that to be the beginning of the decision to love Jack.
Hmm, now I'm rambling.
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Oh Yeah. Nice guy that Jack.
Jack pretty well FUC*ED things up for Ennis. Screwed up his head and his life. Knew he was engaged yet ,like the clever and shrewd coyote he was,dismissed the fact and manipulated his way into Ennis confidance,took advantage of his insecurities and loneliness,waited until the right moment at night or early morning when he was so drunk he couldn't even stand,finally got Ennis into the tent then offered himself up to satisfy his carnal desires and snatch away Ennis virginity from Alma.Something that what was rightfully her due from her bethrothed.When Alma finally got to enjoy her husband he had already been fully conditioned phyically and emotionally to equate the act anally by association of nearly a full summer with Jack. When Ennis would turn Alma on her belly he didn't feel he was degrading her since he associated it with the type of love making he did with his very first and only partner.God only knows how many partners Jack had prior to Ennis.As if enough damage wasn't done, he pursued Ennis even after they both had married.
I guess Ennis should have completely disregarded all possible ramaifications upon his daughters if they couldn't accept their fathers taking up with a man.Certainly his daughters peers unacceptance would have created a good ole time for all.If things turned out so badly for Jack because Ennis kept him at a distance ,exactly what the hell should he have expected? YEAH,that Jack was some "thinker".
I don't want to start an argument here, however I am somewhat floored by what I am reading. Let's remember a couple of key points:
a. Ennis was perfectly capable (drunk or sober) of preventing any unwanted sexual advances from Jack.
b. Ennis was perfectly capable of discouraging future communication from Jack. He could have answered "no" to Jack's first postcard. Whatever feelings he still felt for Jack could have remained on ice indefinitely. As it turned out Ennis could barely contain himself at the sight of Jack after 4 years apart. It didn't look as though future ramifications were foremost in Ennis's thoughts.
It seems that in your eyes Ennis was some sort of victim here at the hands of Jack. I disagree. I also remember being insecure like Ennis at age 19 and 20. However, no one was touching me inappropriately unless I wanted them too...and I wasn't as physically capable of preventing it as Ennis.
I believe in preserving the sanctity of marriage and family. However, it is a crime for our society to force two adults into marriages that they may not be capable of honoring. The damage depicted in this film as a result was hurtful and widespread. I don't condone some of the choices made, but I understand how the heart can often overrule one's logic.
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Well in the BBM I watched Jack was not a predator and Ennis was not a spineless wimp who was powerless and couldn't think for himself. It was Ennis that laid out the rules for the summer- A one shot thing. He never threatened Jack or even stayed away from him. He voluntarily went into the tent during SNIT. Jack sent out a postcard to Ennis which Ennis CHOSE to respond to, not to mention that he was the one who grabbed Jack and started that kiss. Ennis chose to quit his jobs and Ennis chose to not ranch up with Jack. I could go on and on. If Jack had so much power and influence over Ennis then they would have never parted ways in 1963 and we wouldn’t be sitting here having a discussion. With the exception of falling in love, their relationship was a series of choices- the choice to continue it, to meet up, to accept the constraints on it etc.
As to when he first fell in love with Jack, I guess that's hard to quantify. And there's when he fell in love as compared to when he realized it was love. I don't think he truly understood and appreciated what they had until Jack died. But I always thought the "ain't no reins" scene was an indicator of how strongly he felt about Jack. And the short story gives us a lot of clues. The 'headlong, irreversible fall' he felt at the end of the first summer, telling Jack at the reunion scene how bad he felt at that time and that it "Took me about a year to figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights." And in the movie, I think the SNIT showed him opening up to Jack and choosing to be in the relationship in a way that was so much more intimate and tender than the FNIT that I always took that to be the beginning of the decision to love Jack.
Hmm, now I'm rambling.
Well said O0 It's hard to pinpoint that exact moment because it was a feeling that built up during their time spent together. There are so many little glances and as Flwrchild pointed out so many clues as to what they were feeling during that summer.
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Well said CSC :)
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I agree the begining of their love was hard to pinpoint. This isn't a story where there were fireworks from the start. As stated in earlier posts, there were moments where you could see them growing closer.
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I entirely share manhattangirl, FlwrChild, City Slickin' Cowboy and LuvJackNasty thoughts.
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Oh Yeah. Nice guy that Jack.
Jack pretty well FUC*ED things up for Ennis. Screwed up his head and his life. Knew he was engaged yet ,like the clever and shrewd coyote he was,dismissed the fact and manipulated his way into Ennis confidance,took advantage of his insecurities and loneliness,waited until the right moment at night or early morning when he was so drunk he couldn't even stand,finally got Ennis into the tent then offered himself up to satisfy his carnal desires and snatch away Ennis virginity from Alma.Something that what was rightfully her due from her bethrothed.When Alma finally got to enjoy her husband he had already been fully conditioned phyically and emotionally to equate the act anally by association of nearly a full summer with Jack. When Ennis would turn Alma on her belly he didn't feel he was degrading her since he associated it with the type of love making he did with his very first and only partner.God only knows how many partners Jack had prior to Ennis.As if enough damage wasn't done, he pursued Ennis even after they both had married.
I guess Ennis should have completely disregarded all possible ramaifications upon his daughters if they couldn't accept their fathers taking up with a man.Certainly his daughters peers unacceptance would have created a good ole time for all.If things turned out so badly for Jack because Ennis kept him at a distance ,exactly what the hell should he have expected? YEAH,that Jack was some "thinker".
We have to be honest with ourselves. This is the prevailing feeling that many have. The key word is love, when did they fall in love? That one word sticks in people craw. The thought of love, like it was something only deserved by those who believe in the conventions set down by all societies, ignoring the acceptance of one's love for another of the same sex, and saying yes it happens, it's been going on throughtout the history of the world.
Jack preyed on Ennis. Instead of looking at them as two young men in love. Ennis must have been, had to be a victim, Jack with no morals, depraved, took advantage of him, the victimizer. How sad. one's own sexuality, I always believed was something to be accepted, It had to be, because what cure is there? and did one want to be cured?
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To define when love begins is really tricky, no?
In the reunion, we are sure at they are truly in love. And in the SNIT, we do feel that there is more to their feelings than mere sensual gratification, especially if we take into account the tenderness of it all.
I do suspect that love started earlier than these two scenes where we see their love close to actuality. And yet, scenes like these do remind us that by the time love reveals itself to many of us, it is already fully formed within. The miracle is that it still manages to surprise us when we are finally there. So it is in the case of Ennis and Jack.
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To define when love begins is really tricky, no?
In the reunion, we are sure at they are truly in love. And in the SNIT, we do feel that there is more to their feelings than mere sensual gratification, especially if we take into account the tenderness of it all.
I do suspect that love started earlier than these two scenes where we see their love close to actuality. And yet, scenes like these do remind us that by the time love reveals itself to many of us, it is already fully formed within. The miracle is that it still manages to surprise us when we are finally there. So it is in the case of Ennis and Jack.
Beautiful Thomas. And so true. <^(
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Beautiful Thomas. And so true. <^(
In many ways, we are the last to know when we are in love, no?
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In many ways, we are the last to know when we are in love, no?
Watch Ennis's eyes in the "That's the most I've talked in a year" scene. He surprises himself with his openness with Jack, and you can actually see him wonder if he's revealed too much and question whut's happening here. That Mr. Ledger did not get the Oscar is proof enough that AMPAS is too wrapped up in its own myths to matter anymore to intelligent and aware moviegoers.
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Personally as I watch the opening scenes Jack: " Your folks just stop at Ennis?....and "Pleased to meet you Ennis Del Mar" Watch the eyes ! How flirtatious is THAT???
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Personally as I watch the opening scenes Jack: " Your folks just stop at Ennis?....and "Pleased to meet you Ennis Del Mar" Watch the eyes ! How flirtatious is THAT???
Ya know, this has gotten me shot down before, but I really think that Jack (even in the famous lounging on the truck scene) isn't so much cruising Ennis, or flirting with him, as just being very interested. Think about it: they're both described as being from lonesome far away ranches with the nearest neighbor 8 to 10 miles away. They're both highschool drop outs. How far along in the line of social skills do we think they got? Schools that remote can have fewer students in grades 9-12 than most of us had in home room. I remember about 16, maybe 17, years ago seeing a graduating class (on Johnny Carson) from some place in Nebraska that was as remote as Sage or Lighning Flats that was a total of 6 guys, and they were the largest class in the school! (Remember Ennis had to drive an hour each way between from where he lived with his brother and sister and the school - with two hours of commuting each day, so something says to me there was no time for band practice or football...IOW, zero socializing) What I'm saying is that I think their intial reactions to one another are excited interest just because the guy they're going to work with and be alone with for the summer is someone around their own age from a similar background, that rare someone in their lives who they can identify with, who they want to know more about. I think this is the just the entrance to the path to their love affair, not necessarily portraying sexual desire. I really believe Jack when he says, "Happy to know you, Ennis Del Mar," but I'm not so sure he already thinks he's going to get in Ennis's shorts, just yet, since just to have a friend their own age would be a genuine novelty for either boy.
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Their eyes speak so many times in scenes wherein hardly any words are exchanged. You really get to see their love surfacing from deep inside:
- When Jack looks down at Ennis's campfire, look at Jack's eyes.
- When Ennis looks up at Jack with ther sheep, look at Ennis's eyes.
Perhaps one of the most beautiful instances is when Jack has finished packing and he looks at the sulking Ennis at some distance. At that very moment, you see all the love and sympathy that would last a lifetime in Jack's eyes.
At that moment, there is no doubt that Jack loved Ennis above all things.
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The look in Jack's eyes when he tries to clean up Ennis's face and Ennis brushes his hand away speaks volumes -and the way he wants to touch Ennis suggests he's feeling more than just concern for an injured friends.
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The look in Jack's eyes when he tries to clean up Ennis's face and Ennis brushes his hand away speaks volumes -and the way he wants to touch Ennis suggests he's feeling more than just concern for an injured friends.
WW, yes, this is an excellent example. There is a clear suppression of feeling in his face -- as if he does not want to reveal much. Surely this is love peeking out.
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Watch Ennis's eyes in the "That's the most I've talked in a year" scene. He surprises himself with his openness with Jack, and you can actually see him wonder if he's revealed too much and question whut's happening here. That Mr. Ledger did not get the Oscar is proof enough that AMPAS is too wrapped up in its own myths to matter anymore to intelligent and aware moviegoers.
I giggle at that part because he's so quiet, makes that comment and then keeps on talking. ;D Just shows how confortable he is with Jack and almost proud of himself for getting such a reaction out of Jack :)
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WW and TPE- all of those are beautiful moments for our boys <^( No words are needed at certain points.
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WW and TPE- all of those are beautiful moments for our boys <^( No words are needed at certain points.
This is why I am surprised when I read comments outside this forum about people complaining that the FNIT happed just out of the blue. These people should be more observant. They are the people who have to be hit by an on-coming train before they realize that they can't cross to the other side.
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This is why I am surprised when I read comments outside this forum about people complaining that the FNIT happed just out of the blue. These people should be more observant. They are the people who have to be hit by an on-coming train before they realize that they can't cross to the other side.
I'm sure this has been said before, but this is one of the most signal parts of the movie: it begins (in Signal) in silence. Other than Jack's half-heard "Shit!" when he kicks the pickup, the boys' first scenes are done in silence, but so much goes on that we have to get used to understanding that using "gestures and looks" as well as words is the usual way of communicating in the society in which they grew up! The fist sentence in the film isn't spoken until four and a half minutes have gone by, and neither of the main characters speak (other than that throwaway curse) in the first six and a half minutes! The movie tells us how to watch it, that gestures and looks are going to be equally important as the spoken word, because they are equally important to the boys.
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This is why I am surprised when I read comments outside this forum about people complaining that the FNIT happed just out of the blue. These people should be more observant. They are the people who have to be hit by an on-coming train before they realize that they can't cross to the other side.
Exactly- you can tell, if you watch, that at least a month has gone by because of the full moon.
The movie tells us how to watch it, that gestures and looks are going to be equally important as the spoken word, because they are equally important to the boys.
Well said :) We are watching their story unfold as they want us to see it.
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The look in Jack's eyes when he tries to clean up Ennis's face and Ennis brushes his hand away speaks volumes -and the way he wants to touch Ennis suggests he's feeling more than just concern for an injured friends.
This is definitely a scene where I feel Jack shows real feeling and concern for Ennis. He takes HIS hankerchief off to attempt to clean the wound. His approach is quite gentle and careful.
Had this happened between two typical guys we might hear "Hey man, you got blood on yer face. You might oughta clean that s**t off."
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This is definitely a scene where I feel Jack shows real feeling and concern for Ennis. He takes HIS hankerchief off to attempt to clean the wound. His approach is quite gentle and careful.
Had this happened between two typical guys we might hear "Hey man, you got blood on yer face. You might oughta clean that s**t off."
In the movie, there is that sweet scene in Aguirre's trailer, when he gets distracted from them by that phone call, they each slyly take advantage in the lull in the attention he's giving them to give each other the once over. I always thought that Jack was a little slower than Ennis because he takes longer to look. I could be wrong though, he might be acknowledging that Ennis is sexier than he is, lingering on his looks like that. ;) Really, I think he's just the lonelier of the two, at this point, what with that "one road out" of Lightning Flat, and all that.
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As far as I'm concerned the eyes tell the story in a big way.
The scene where they come outside the trailor and Jack is smoking , staring staight ahead and Ennis appears to be fascinated with his new watch , ;D , finnally makes eye contact with Jack as they shook hans ( only for a micro-sec (it's so humanly real when an object of desire is so close and in your face)for me this split second of akwardness makes me smile for some reason. They've both have gotten jobs for the summer, together. The introduction to each other is filled with telling , but hidden messages. I say again watch the eyes, especially Jack's. They not only search Ennis's eyes but he gives Ennis the full body "once over" And twice over . Maybe he was'nt in love with him yet but He definitly shows he's interested in finding out more. Oh... and what's up with the lip-licking? Oh my!
Loved the way the friendship developed first sharing the camp building etc. Jack's concern after the bear incident. Ennis's subtle kindnesses and concerns, shooting the elk etc.. I am struck by the scene in which it is storming, Ennis is wittling a wooden horse, looking up to see Jack and at the sky. Perhaps he was worried that Jack was safe and warm...and dry? Sweet. I too cannot pin-point the exact monent they fell in love but SNIT in the tent proved it happened along the way somewhere.I think it was a suprise to both of them.
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Couldn't agree with you more, Ain't, if I may use your first name? :) I think they both think that all of their checkin' each other out is just gettin' ta be acquainted. They're both from extremely rural areas where everybody lived at least 8 - 10 miles from each other, and there just weren't that many kids around their own age available to either of them.
A. Proulx could have said they were the same age, but didn't. After 60 or more rewrites, you'd think that every little word must mean something, so why didn't she tell us they were the same age? As near as I can figure out, she didn't want their age to be something her readers could use to identify with them, socially. Maybe she wasn't taking any chances that we could get the impression that these guys grew up anything like the majority of her readers, so she uses the vagueness in their ages (both younger than 20) so we couldn't think they were "together" at any other stage in their lives, that they were both novelties to one another. This could explain why they didn't get it right away that some of their interest in each other was more than just "friendly," and it might also explain their surprise at falling in love and the viewers'/readers' lack of it.
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It's also true that in the kid of places they lived, there were limited opportunities for social contact - Ennis had been out of school for years, after which he'sdworked on farms with his brother, and Jack surely hadn't been in the competitive environment of rodeoing for all that long - he'd also gone back to Lightning Flat in between, since he'd told his father what he was doing and his father had taken no interest. So I think the'd had limited occasions when they'd met someone of around their own age with whom they had to form a relationship. friendship, whatever, from scratch.
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Maybe this is why they don't see themselves as in love for such a long time - neither of them has enough socialization to be aware of the difference between wanting to get to know your new best friend as much as you can, and falling in love! Wow, great inspiration welshwitch!
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You have given us an interesting and probable angle to think about welshwitch!
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It is amazing to me that the issue of when they fell in love is so important to us and keeps cropping up over and over. I think it is a most difficult question. I think it's easier to figure out when they KNEW they were in love, than when they actually FELL in love.
Good theory, WW, for sure. These boys didn't have enough experience with people to really know what their relationship was. When they slipped over the lines from acquaintances to friends, then to lovers, they more or less stumbled over the lines. They weren't conscious of the changes that were going on between them. They really were babes in the woods. To me, they both needed love so badly that they were unconsciously wide open to the possibility of love. They acted on need, in MHO.
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It is amazing to me that the issue of when they fell in love is so important to us and keeps cropping up over and over. I think it is a most difficult question.
How true, I guess if any of us could figure out what love is, and could put it into words, we’d writing books with AP. O0
Interesting what you say about their experience with love WW, I guess in reflecting about this the only person we see with a deep understanding of true love is Jack’s mother who expresses her unconditional love for her son in so many ways. So Jack is the only one of the boys to have experienced the joy of knowing what it is like to feel unconditional love, yet he is possibly too young to comprehend this yet at 19. It certainly seems to color his compassionate approach to Ennis not only in ’63 but also for years to come.
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Here's a thought that just occurred to me that you might want to kick around: On Brokeback, Jack and Ennis have agreed to agree that they are 2 straight boys engaging in some sport sex for the summer. That's what I think "I ain't queer, me neither," means. - We can screw our brains out all summer long, as long as we don't mean it. We've agreed that neither of us is queer so, in the long tradition of lonely, separated from the rest of the world heterosexual male pairs, we can have as much sport sex out here as we want, and no one but us will know, so we won't have to pay for it back home.
But one thing happens on Brokeback that we don't find out until the big fight, when Jack remembers the drowsy embrace. It stands apart because it is "artless and sexless." With no thought, plan or ulterior goal, Ennis comes to him at the fire to say goodbye for the day, and he is in no hurry to let go and get going. I think he remembers it at this time because that's the first time he thinks that maybe there's some "feeling" behind the sex, after all he's really liking this and this ain't sex. It might occur to him to wish that maybe they aren't two straight guys after all. He's warmed further at the thought, but knows it can't be because Ennis is straight - they've talked about it and have graciously accepted each other's lie for truth. Of course, they're both so infatuated with the idea of each other that neither of them knows or could even think that the other guy is lying, too. But this time their contact is different: Ennis holds Jack and rocks him, hums to him, breathes with him, gives him a heartbeat to feel, and tells Jack to hit the hay as he is leaving. This truly sweet moment is the first point of awareness for either of them that this summer fling but could become a lifetime craving. Ennis doesn't notice any of this, not until after the final fight. That's my vote for when their love did start. Until a new thought comes along.
(Of course they started to fall in love when they first met, but with no experience, they didn't know what they were up to, or what was up with them, until Jack caught on in the DE. Poor bastard couldn't tell "straight" Ennis that he had feelings for him too - might be taken the wrong way.)
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I'd say you're pretty close on target here, zephK.
Really like your analogy of "2 straight boys engaging in some sport sex" -
Now I know why I've watched this movie a hunerd' times!
:8
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I'm sure this has been said before, but this is one of the most signal parts of the movie: it begins (in Signal) in silence. Other than Jack's half-heard "Shit!" when he kicks the pickup, the boys' first scenes are done in silence, but so much goes on that we have to get used to understanding that using "gestures and looks" as well as words is the usual way of communicating in the society in which they grew up! The fist sentence in the film isn't spoken until four and a half minutes have gone by, and neither of the main characters speak (other than that throwaway curse) in the first six and a half minutes! The movie tells us how to watch it, that gestures and looks are going to be equally important as the spoken word, because they are equally important to the boys.
The opening scenes certainly sets the tone of their attraction, if not their love. And the fact that it was done with very little dialog again shows off the wonderful acting of the two protagonists. The emotions are mirrored purely on looks. And it is clear to me that the attraction was present from the very start.
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As far as I'm concerned the eyes tell the story in a big way.
The scene where they come outside the trailor and Jack is smoking , staring staight ahead and Ennis appears to be fascinated with his new watch , ;D , finnally makes eye contact with Jack as they shook hans ( only for a micro-sec (it's so humanly real when an object of desire is so close and in your face)for me this split second of akwardness makes me smile for some reason. They've both have gotten jobs for the summer, together. The introduction to each other is filled with telling , but hidden messages. I say again watch the eyes, especially Jack's. They not only search Ennis's eyes but he gives Ennis the full body "once over" And twice over . Maybe he was'nt in love with him yet but He definitly shows he's interested in finding out more. Oh... and what's up with the lip-licking? Oh my!
Loved the way the friendship developed first sharing the camp building etc. Jack's concern after the bear incident. Ennis's subtle kindnesses and concerns, shooting the elk etc.. I am struck by the scene in which it is storming, Ennis is wittling a wooden horse, looking up to see Jack and at the sky. Perhaps he was worried that Jack was safe and warm...and dry? Sweet. I too cannot pin-point the exact monent they fell in love but SNIT in the tent proved it happened along the way somewhere.I think it was a suprise to both of them.
I agree. The wonderful eye contact is sometimes the best way to fathom their growing love for watch other. Again, this touches on the use of silences throughout this movie. There is a wonderful economy in the use of the eyes and in the facial expressions to hint at the love between them. But it also adds to the mystery as to when exactly then fall in love. IT was a very subtle development, only hinted at in small gestures and meaningful looks...
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It is amazing to me that the issue of when they fell in love is so important to us and keeps cropping up over and over. I think it is a most difficult question. I think it's easier to figure out when they KNEW they were in love, than when they actually FELL in love.
Subtle distinction here. But yes, knowing how one feels is much easier to decipher than tracing the evolution of that feeling, and when exactly it crosses a certain threshold.
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Here's a thought that just occurred to me that you might want to kick around: On Brokeback, Jack and Ennis have agreed to agree that they are 2 straight boys engaging in some sport sex for the summer. That's what I think "I ain't queer, me neither," means. - We can screw our brains out all summer long, as long as we don't mean it. We've agreed that neither of us is queer so, in the long tradition of lonely, separated from the rest of the world heterosexual male pairs, we can have as much sport sex out here as we want, and no one but us will know, so we won't have to pay for it back home.
But one thing happens on Brokeback that we don't find out until the big fight, when Jack remembers the drowsy embrace. It stands apart because it is "artless and sexless." With no thought, plan or ulterior goal, Ennis comes to him at the fire to say goodbye for the day, and he is in no hurry to let go and get going. I think he remembers it at this time because that's the first time he thinks that maybe there's some "feeling" behind the sex, after all he's really liking this and this ain't sex. It might occur to him to wish that maybe they aren't two straight guys after all. He's warmed further at the thought, but knows it can't be because Ennis is straight - they've talked about it and have graciously accepted each other's lie for truth. Of course, they're both so infatuated with the idea of each other that neither of them knows or could even think that the other guy is lying, too. But this time their contact is different: Ennis holds Jack and rocks him, hums to him, breathes with him, gives him a heartbeat to feel, and tells Jack to hit the hay as he is leaving. This truly sweet moment is the first point of awareness for either of them that this summer fling but could become a lifetime craving. Ennis doesn't notice any of this, not until after the final fight. That's my vote for when their love did start. Until a new thought comes along.
(Of course they started to fall in love when they first met, but with no experience, they didn't know what they were up to, or what was up with them, until Jack caught on in the DE. Poor bastard couldn't tell "straight" Ennis that he had feelings for him too - might be taken the wrong way.)
Beautifully stated, zephK! Perhaps the "Dozy Embrace" does indeed mark the advent of love at its most essential aspect.
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Beautifully stated, zephK! Perhaps the "Dozy Embrace" does indeed mark the advent of love at its most essential aspect.
I second that. Just reading zephk's assessment of the Dozy Embrace has me thinking I will probably cry harder during that scene on my next viewing. :\'(
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I second that. Just reading zephk's assessment of the Dozy Embrace has me thinking I will probably cry harder during that scene on my next viewing. :\'(
The same here CSC. It struck me to think that the Dozy Embrace marked a true beginning, in contradistinction to the last meeting, which marked a true end.
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Sometimes I think the dozy embrace was the moment when they were in love; what went before took them to that point, and what went after took them further away, or was only a series of attempts to get back to it.
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I think I should have waited until I was home for the evening before reading these last two posts. :\'(
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Sometimes I think the dozy embrace was the moment when they were in love; what went before took them to that point, and what went after took them further away, or was only a series of attempts to get back to it.
I have convinced myself that the Dozy Embrace is indeed the first true manifestation of true love between them.
Interesting that we see it so close to the end of it all. This makes it all the more powerful.
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I think the DE was just that point in their first summer on Brokeback when Jack realized that they might really not be just two straight guys horsing around. This is the only moment during the Summer of Sex of non-sexual close contact the two boys share, and it's quite romantic (to quote 'Coyote Ugly, "There was hardly a dry seat in the house."), reason enough to start Jack wanting more.
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It's interesting that though we think of Jack as the more demonstrative one and the one with the higher sex drive, as he apparently does himself, it's still that moment of the closeness that comes after the desire for sex is temporarily satiated that he remembers and longs for in later years, because like all of us he knows when he is loved, not just desired, with the sort of love that lasts.
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It's interesting that though we think of Jack as the more demonstrative one and the one with the higher sex drive, as he apparently does himself, it's still that moment of the closeness that comes after the desire for sex is temporarily satiated that he remembers and longs for in later years, because like all of us he knows when he is loved, not just desired, with the sort of love that lasts.
Yes, WW, but the bear of it all is that Ennis does not see it as more than rough-house sex until a year later when he finally figures out that that wasn't a bad meal that had him crying in the alleyway. I do not agree with those who blame Ennis for this: he is just like the rest of us, incapable of acting beyond his expectations of reality - he knows he's not queer because he finds Alma attractive enough that he's engaged to marry her. He finds out so many things too late, like that he'd much rather be in Jack's arms than anywhere else, that we look for a reason. And there it is, presented to us at the reunion campfire: Earl's tortured body. That event drove little Ennis into such a state of panic and confusion, he's still there nearly til he's 39!
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. . . it's still that moment of the closeness that comes after the desire for sex is temporarily satiated that he remembers and longs for in later years, because like all of us he knows when he is loved, not just desired, with the sort of love that lasts.
I've always found it interesting that in the Dozy Embrace it is Ennis who is the initiator and who comes to embrace the groggy and stone-still Jack. Probably why Jack remembered it for years, he became the focus of all the attention and all the emotions being projected by his love. It was a one-way transmission, Ennis-to-Jack, he was able to simply soak up the love.
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I've always found it interesting that in the Drowsy Embrace it is Ennis who is the initiator and who comes to embrace the groggy and stone-still Jack. Probably why Jack remembered it for years, he became the focus of all the attention and all the emotions being projected by his love. It was a one-way transmission, Ennis-to-Jack, he was able to simply soak up the love.
How true Jackster. But you know, I have known people who use this memory to indict Ennis because the drowsy embrace was not face to face! For me it's always been logical that Jack gets up from making breakfast and is waiting for Ennis to leave so he can get back to bed. Ennis comes toward Jack who is warming himself at the fire, facing it, not Ennis, so Ennis rather than turn him around embraces him from behind, warming that side of him too. (And me.) As I say, I think this is the first communal moment when Jack thinks for sure that there's more to this "thing" than rough snorting laughing sex. (Like there'd be something wrong with that.) :)
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How true Jackster. But you know, I have known people who use this memory to indict Ennis because the drowsy embrace was not face to face! For me it's always been logical that Jack gets up from making breakfast and is waiting for Ennis to leave so he can get back to bed. Ennis comes toward Jack who is warming himself at the fire, facing it, not Ennis, so Ennis rather than turn him around embraces him from behind, warming that side of him too. (And me.) As I say, I think this is the first communal moment when Jack thinks for sure that there's more to this "thing" than rough snorting laughing sex. (Like there'd be something wrong with that.) :)
Probably some of the greatest lines Annie Proulx has ever written were about the drowsy embrace. By now Jack has fallen in love as has Ennis, but neither one of them are ready to accept that which they were raised to reject and hate. Jack is more suseptible to understanding what it was all about than Ennis, but for both of them, lonely, isolated, ignorant young men, it went beyond sex, it was a connection of soul and spirit. IMHO that is the power of the episode, both in the movie and the SS. It is the glue which hold the whole thing together. How many of us have wanted more than just sex and never found it?
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..or maybe worse, thought they found it and were proved incorrect.
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Warmed by the fire in front oif him, and Ennis's arms from behind - just for once Jack is surrounded by the love he seeks.
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And just for once, Ennis can hold another human being and release some of the love within him without fear of rejection or death. His parents died on him when he was a kid, his sister married and left, and his brother married and pitched him out. He's never been near anyone like Jack f*ckin' Twist. He's clueless but in love.
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Probably some of the greatest lines Annie Proulx has ever written were about the drowsy embrace. By now Jack has fallen in love as has Ennis, but neither one of them are ready to accept that which they were raised to reject and hate. Jack is more suseptible to understanding what it was all about than Ennis, but for both of them, lonely, isolated, ignorant young men, it went beyond sex, it was a connection of soul and spirit. IMHO that is the power of the episode, both in the movie and the SS. It is the glue which hold the whole thing together. How many of us have wanted more than just sex and never found it?
I agree with you...
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Probably some of the greatest lines Annie Proulx has ever written were about the drowsy embrace. By now Jack has fallen in love as has Ennis, but neither one of them are ready to accept that which they were raised to reject and hate. Jack is more suseptible to understanding what it was all about than Ennis, but for both of them, lonely, isolated, ignorant young men, it went beyond sex, it was a connection of soul and spirit. IMHO that is the power of the episode, both in the movie and the SS. It is the glue which hold the whole thing together. How many of us have wanted more than just sex and never found it?
Well said BBBOY!
I can't say for sure that I never found it, but I do miss that deep connection with someone. I think that's why the dozy embrace scene hits me so hard. I believe I understand what the two were feeling in this scene.
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Maybe falling in love, like happiness, isn't something you can identify during the moment but know later - "That's when I was happy/fell in love."
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Probably some of the greatest lines Annie Proulx has ever written were about the drowsy embrace. By now Jack has fallen in love as has Ennis, but neither one of them are ready to accept that which they were raised to reject and hate. Jack is more suseptible to understanding what it was all about than Ennis, but for both of them, lonely, isolated, ignorant young men, it went beyond sex, it was a connection of soul and spirit. IMHO that is the power of the episode, both in the movie and the SS. It is the glue which hold the whole thing together. How many of us have wanted more than just sex and never found it?
Well said. BBBOY. This is how I viewed the comment of the embrace being sexless -- it expressed an emotion that went beyond sensual gratification. Is this not love?
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Maybe falling in love, like happiness, isn't something you can identify during the moment but know later - "That's when I was happy/fell in love."
Yes, the admission of love is an afterthought. The avowal of love is after the fact.
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Jack certainly knows he loves Ennis when he drives away after they ahave parted in Signal; Ennis's reaction as he walks off is something he doesn't understand. I suppose he realises that his emotions are involved by degrees. If i had to differentiate them, i'd say Jack fell in love, possibly very soon after they met, whereas Ennis slid into it, much later.
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Jack certainly knows he loves Ennis when he drives away after they ahave parted in Signal; Ennis's reaction as he walks off is something he doesn't understand. I suppose he realises that his emotions are involved by degrees. If i had to differentiate them, i'd say Jack fell in love, possibly very soon after they met, whereas Ennis slid into it, much later.
Or perhaps Ennis was not savvy enough to realize that he was in love until much later...
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Or perhaps Ennis was not savvy enough to realize that he was in love until much later...
Actually Ennis tells Jack at the reunion, I believe, that he finally realized it wasn't a bad meal that had him doubled up by the side of the road (in the alley, film) after they parted, but that it was missing Jack that did it to him. "That summer," Ennis said, "When we split up after we got paid out I had gut cramps so bad I pulled over and tried to puke, thought I ate something bad in that place in Dubois. Took me about a year to figure out it was I shouldn't a let you outta my sights. Too late then by a long while."
Of course, I really don't think he knew that his desire for Jack, as strong and as singular as it was, was love until Cassie told him what love was in the terminal.
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Actually Ennis tells Jack at the reunion, I believe, that he finally realized it wasn't a bad meal that had him doubled up by the side of the road (in the alley, film) after they parted, but that it was missing Jack that did it to him. "That summer," Ennis said, "When we split up after we got paid out I had gut cramps so bad I pulled over and tried to puke, thought I ate something bad in that place in Dubois. Took me about a year to figure out it was I shouldn't a let you outta my sights. Too late then by a long while."
Of course, I really don't think he knew that his desire for Jack, as strong and as singular as it was, was love until Cassie told him what love was in the terminal.
A moving interpretation of the scene at the terminal. I am not usre if everyone would agree, but there is something to be said about the full realization of love.
I would then dare venture to suggest that Ennis finally KNEW the moment Alma Jr. answered: "Yes, daddy, he loves me". The screenplay tells us as much in this very scene. Ennis look out and comes to the full realization. Hence: "I swear..."
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At any rate I think that's the moment he realises the importance of love, and that it's too late for him, because when he had it he didn't realise.
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At any rate I think that's the moment he realises the importance of love, and that it's too late for him, because when he had it he didn't realise.
Love lost before it was truly found.
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I believe that Jack fell for Ennis at the very beginning. But I also believe that Ennis did not realize that love until the scene with his daughter in the trailer near the end. For Jack the DE simply confirmed that Ennis was in love with Jack, and Jack definitely knew that he was in love with Ennis. :\'(
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I believe that Jack fell for Ennis at the very beginning. But I also believe that Ennis did not realize that love until the scene with his daughter in the trailer near the end. For Jack the DE simply confirmed that Ennis was in love with Jack, and Jack definitely knew that he was in love with Ennis. :\'(
That's very interesting but I miss something here... what is DE? Sorry to be the usual ignorant French boy...
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That's very interesting but I miss something here... what is DE? Sorry to be the usual ignorant French boy...
Dozy Embrace, Cham ;)
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I believe that Jack fell for Ennis at the very beginning. But I also believe that Ennis did not realize that love until the scene with his daughter in the trailer near the end. For Jack the DE simply confirmed that Ennis was in love with Jack, and Jack definitely knew that he was in love with Ennis. :\'(
This might very well be true. Perhaps the discovery of the shirts could also be a candidate as to when Ennis truly realized and recognized his love. BUt there is no boubt that by asking the question to Alma Jr., he was asking the same question to himself.
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This might very well be true. Perhaps the discovery of the shirts could also be a candidate as to when Ennis truly realized and recognized his love. BUt there is no boubt that by asking the question to Alma Jr., he was asking the same question to himself.
Great post, TPE. I agree. To me, the DE was when Jack realized that Ennis loved him and the finding of the two shirt was when Ennis realized how much Jack loved him. This is not to be confused with when each actually falls in love. Jack fell in love near the beginning. Perhaps even love at first sight. For Ennis, it's later on. Maybe the SNIT or even a year after BBM. When Alma Jr. answered his question, Ennis got his own answer as well. That's how I see that part of the trailer scene.
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Great post, TPE. I agree. To me, the DE was when Jack realized that Ennis loved him and the finding of the two shirt was when Ennis realized how much Jack loved him. This is not to be confused with when each actually falls in love. Jack fell in love near the beginning. Perhaps even love at first sight. For Ennis, it's later on. Maybe the SNIT or even a year after BBM. When Alma Jr. answered his question, Ennis got his own answer as well. That's how I see that part of the trailer scene.
Yes! This was how I understood it. You said it better here.
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For Jack I think it was when he first laid eyes on Ennis. <^(
For Ennis I think it is when Ennis opens up and tells Jack his life story and then says "thats the most i've spoken in a year." I
think he knew Jack was different. I would go a step further and say that Ennis had never told that story before. :-*
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For Jack I think it was when he first laid eyes on Ennis. <^(
For Ennis I think it is when Ennis opens up and tells Jack his life story and then says "thats the most i've spoken in a year." I
think he knew Jack was different. I would go a step further and say that Ennis had never told that story before. :-*
I have always thought that there was something special in Jack's first real hard look at Ennis in the opening scene. Whether or not it was love, it was intense enough to make Ennis burrow deeper into his own shell.
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If ennis hasn't fallen in love when he starts confiding in JAck, he's certainly come to trust him, and trust is something that comes from liking, affection, a sense of fellow-feeling that can lead to love.
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If ennis hasn't fallen in love when he starts confiding in JAck, he's certainly come to trust him, and trust is something that comes from liking, affection, a sense of fellow-feeling that can lead to love.
Yes, I think with Ennis, it had to be trust first. With such a hard upbringing, perhaps this was the most difficult thing for anyone to get out of Ennis. And yet, love must have come soon after Jack did succeed in gaining his trust.
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For Jack I think it was when he first laid eyes on Ennis. <^(
For Ennis I think it is when Ennis opens up and tells Jack his life story and then says "thats the most i've spoken in a year." I
think he knew Jack was different. I would go a step further and say that Ennis had never told that story before. :-*
I always felt Jack and Ennis were just sizing each other up during the first scenes at Aguirre's trailer. Of course with Jack, I believe his feelings for Ennis started growing early on. I do believe that Ennis would have never opened up to Jack the trust wasn't there. When Ennis started telling his story, Jack couldn't have been more happy. The look Ennis gives Jack when he says "that's the most I've spoke in a year" says a lot to me about Ennis's growing feelings towards Jack.
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I always felt Jack and Ennis were just sizing each other up during the first scenes at Aguirre's trailer. Of course with Jack, I believe his feelings for Ennis started growing early on. I do believe that Ennis would have never opened up to Jack the trust wasn't there. When Ennis started telling his story, Jack couldn't have been more happy. The look Ennis gives Jack when he says "that's the most I've spoke in a year" says a lot to me about Ennis's growing feelings towards Jack.
Yes, for Ennis, trust had to come first before the realization of love. The fact that Ennis seemed to trust Jack at that point -- enough to confide such details of his personal life -- hinted at his falling in love.
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I think for jack it was when he said thats more words than you spoke in two weeks.
Ennis a bit more difficult to say i dont think ennis knew exactly how he felt untill they left the mountain. Then it hit him like a ton of bricks.
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I think for jack it was when he said thats more words than you spoke in two weeks.
Ennis a bit more difficult to say i dont think ennis knew exactly how he felt untill they left the mountain. Then it hit him like a ton of bricks.
Ennis's feelings really did hit him hard when they left the mountain. I am sure Jack's feelings were quite strong before they left the mountain.
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Ennis's feelings really did hit him hard when they left the mountain. I am sure Jack's feelings were quite strong before they left the mountain.
Yes jacks feelings were well and truely in place way before they left the mountain .
With ennis i think it was a classic case of you dont know what you got till you loose it.
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With ennis i think it was a classic case of you dont know what you got till you loose it
Interesting! ???
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Interesting! ???
the realisation that jack was gone never to see him again or so ennis thought.
Ennis not realising how much jack meant to him till after jack drove away.
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With ennis i think it was a classic case of you dont know what you got till you loose it.
Once Jack was gone, Ennis was faced with acknowledging that what they had was something more than a "thing."
Finding the shirts at Jack's parent's house made it very clear what Jack felt. Ennis had to finally see their "thing" as love.
Where are my tissues? :\'( :\'(
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Yes jacks feelings were well and truely in place way before they left the mountain .
With ennis i think it was a classic case of you dont know what you got till you loose it.
Yes. Very well said!
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Yes. Very well said!
Thank you.
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This must have been Ennis's first real taste of love. He didn't recognize it for what it was while on the mountain, but the minute Jack drove away and he was left alone, walking down the road, the enormity of his loss hit him causing him to shake, get sick, vomit, get angry, beat his fist on the wall, etc. When did he fall in love? Probably it had been creeping up on him over the summer, then caught him good after the FNIT. But it didn't affect him until he saw Jack drive away. He STILL didn't see it for what it was then. It took another four years before he finally figured out that what he felt for Jack was love. Perhaps he realized he was missing something in his feelings for Alma, and that something was what he felt for Jack. That had to be love.
I agree that Jack fell in love much earlier. You can see it in his looks toward Ennis from early on in the film. He was watching Ennis intently from the second he got out of his pickup and looked at Ennis standing by the trailer door. Maybe Jack was always open to finding a new man. Maybe his past had included many encounters, and maybe a few relationships with men, so he was always open to a new-comer. Whatever the case, he was eyeing Ennis from point one. Falling in love, however, may have happened at any time after that. I think he loved him while on the mountain. That's why he was so hurt when Ennis punched him on their last day there. He was already in love and couldn't imagine why Ennis was so angry that he hit him so hard. Just MHO.
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This must have been Ennis's first real taste of love. He didn't recognize it for what it was while on the mountain, but the minute Jack drove away and he was left alone, walking down the road, the enormity of his loss hit him causing him to shake, get sick, vomit, get angry, beat his fist on the wall, etc. When did he fall in love? Probably it had been creeping up on him over the summer, then caught him good after the FNIT. But it didn't affect him until he saw Jack drive away. He STILL didn't see it for what it was then. It took another four years before he finally figured out that what he felt for Jack was love. Perhaps he realized he was missing something in his feelings for Alma, and that something was what he felt for Jack. That had to be love.
I agree that Jack fell in love much earlier. You can see it in his looks toward Ennis from early on in the film. He was watching Ennis intently from the second he got out of his pickup and looked at Ennis standing by the trailer door. Maybe Jack was always open to finding a new man. Maybe his past had included many encounters, and maybe a few relationships with men, so he was always open to a new-comer. Whatever the case, he was eyeing Ennis from point one. Falling in love, however, may have happened at any time after that. I think he loved him while on the mountain. That's why he was so hurt when Ennis punched him on their last day there. He was already in love and couldn't imagine why Ennis was so angry that he hit him so hard. Just MHO.
Interesting, lamusica.
I don't know if this makes sense, but I felt that both of them sort of fell in love with each other much earlier -- before they even knew it. And it was Jack who first recognized and acknowlegded that love inside of him.
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Makes perfect sense, tpe. I was about to say something similar. My feeling is that they began to fall in love quite early on and it grew from there. I'd reference this passage from the short story:
They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected. Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.
And I agree that Jack knew and recognized it as love long before Ennis did, or would admit to himself.
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For me it´s difficult to see clearly if these feelings described in the passage you have included are referring to a great friendship based in giving each other what they needed most-for example,in Ennis´case,open himself to somebody more than never before,what is clearly a Jack´s success-or a real love.What I see more clearly is that precisely these friendship,the way they give each other the best of themselves to have at young age the affection they didn´t have when children at 100%is what later became love.When?I agree with you,FlowrChild,that Jack fell in love and recognized it as love before Ennis, or at least,before Ennis put the name of love to "this thing",in his words and in his heart.
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Makes perfect sense, tpe. I was about to say something similar. My feeling is that they began to fall in love quite early on and it grew from there. I'd reference this passage from the short story:
They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected. Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.
And I agree that Jack knew and recognized it as love long before Ennis did, or would admit to himself.
I think this is falling into friendship, as myprivatejack says below. I have gone through those stages with people under certain conditions, but it never ended in LOVE. Maybe it's the definition of love that we are not totally seeing the same way.
I feel love, true love, is something that happens after the friendship has set in and settled down. The two find something even better than all the wonderful components of friendship to explore with one another. This, to me, is the LOVE stage.
That's why I feel neither Jack nor Ennis really love one another completely on the mountain. They just scratch the surface up there. Time apart makes them realize that there is so much more in the other person that they want. This is the love.
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Mmm, good points, myprivatejack and lamusica. Hard to say when the friendship developed into love.
I do believe, though, that what they felt by the time they left the mountain was indeed love. I do agree that the time apart brought the realization, but I think the feeling was already cemented, whether they recognized it or not. I think that's why Ennis collapses in the alley, and I think it's why Jack wanted so badly to establish an opportunity for them to see each other again. He certainly wouldn't have taken the shirt, either, as a token of just a good friendship. I guess I'll never know for sure when it happened, but I do believe the love was formed while they were on the mountain.
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I think love can grow and develop from friendship which becomes deeper and leads on to realise that one is more involved with someone , that their presence is more necessary, than would be true just of friendship.
However, there's also the coup de foudre, that moment when you see someone and know that nothing in your life will ever be the same because this is the one. What comes later can be complications, difficulties, heartbreak; makes no difference. This is the sort of love that " bears it out even to the edge of doom", though it may not lead to a happy shared life.
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He certainly wouldn't have taken the shirt, either, as a token of just a good friendship. I guess I'll never know for sure when it happened, but I do believe the love was formed while they were on the mountain.
You make a very good point where Jack is concerned.
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Makes perfect sense, tpe. I was about to say something similar. My feeling is that they began to fall in love quite early on and it grew from there. I'd reference this passage from the short story:
They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected. Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.
And I agree that Jack knew and recognized it as love long before Ennis did, or would admit to himself.
Thanks Flwrchild. I wonder sometimes what made Jack more accpeting of himself and his feelings. For Ennis, his lonely upbringing and his traumatic choldhood experience made it easier to understand the sublimation of his own feelings, but I had wondered what had prepared Jack this way. He clearly did not have a very happy childhood, it seems. But I guess there was no real trauma -- in the same sense as what Ennis went through (i.e., the fate of Earl).
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I think this is falling into friendship, as myprivatejack says below. I have gone through those stages with people under certain conditions, but it never ended in LOVE. Maybe it's the definition of love that we are not totally seeing the same way.
I feel love, true love, is something that happens after the friendship has set in and settled down. The two find something even better than all the wonderful components of friendship to explore with one another. This, to me, is the LOVE stage.
That's why I feel neither Jack nor Ennis really love one another completely on the mountain. They just scratch the surface up there. Time apart makes them realize that there is so much more in the other person that they want. This is the love.
I feel the same way in a lot of cases, lamusica. But I am also aware of cases when there was a spark from the very beginning, and that a budding friendship only conformed what they had felt all along. IN the case of Ennis and Jack, I somehow felt it was the latter, well, as far as the movie presented it.
But this is a matter of feeling, I guess. Many relationships do happen more gradually, starting with friendship.
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I think love can grow and develop from friendship which becomes deeper and leads on to realise that one is more involved with someone , that their presence is more necessary, than would be true just of friendship.
However, there's also the coup de foudre, that moment when you see someone and know that nothing in your life will ever be the same because this is the one. What comes later can be complications, difficulties, heartbreak; makes no difference. This is the sort of love that " bears it out even to the edge of doom", though it may not lead to a happy shared life.
Yes this is what I meant in my last post. And yes, sometimes, a love can be that which goes against fate itself.
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I think this is falling into friendship, as myprivatejack says below. I have gone through those stages with people under certain conditions, but it never ended in LOVE. Maybe it's the definition of love that we are not totally seeing the same way.
I feel love, true love, is something that happens after the friendship has set in and settled down. The two find something even better than all the wonderful components of friendship to explore with one another. This, to me, is the LOVE stage.
That's why I feel neither Jack nor Ennis really love one another completely on the mountain. They just scratch the surface up there. Time apart makes them realize that there is so much more in the other person that they want. This is the love.
Well for me theorizing about friendship and love is very difficult,because we can´t speak and less still, put concret rules in feelings,but just LIVING THEM.But I think that in Ennis and Jack´s case,the coincidence in having had a difficult childhood and youth made them closer as to become good friends,affection was born and this,united with a sexual atrraction-clear in Jack´s case,hidden and guilty in Ennis´-became something deeper.The time in which these levels must have produced is the same,because you can´t measure them...
However,perhaps the premature separation made them idealize the time they have been together and themselves,creating a feeling that couldn´t but grow between them...
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I think this is falling into friendship, as myprivatejack says below. I have gone through those stages with people under certain conditions, but it never ended in LOVE. Maybe it's the definition of love that we are not totally seeing the same way.
I feel love, true love, is something that happens after the friendship has set in and settled down. The two find something even better than all the wonderful components of friendship to explore with one another. This, to me, is the LOVE stage.
That's why I feel neither Jack nor Ennis really love one another completely on the mountain. They just scratch the surface up there. Time apart makes them realize that there is so much more in the other person that they want. This is the love.
This is a great post lamusica,
But I do think they really did fall in love up on the mountain, but to them, it was not clearly defined to them at the time.
Yes, they were friends first, but it is from this friendship that love grew to be up there. Everything that happened after this is built on that love. My bet is somewhere around the time of the bear incident with Jack, and definitly by SNIT with Ennis.
I feel by then they were both aware that this was something beyond just a close friendship and I also think it was a suprise to both of them in SNIT that these feelings, this friendship had turned into love though niether could define or say it out loud. They just knew. I think it is this realization that Ennis tried to deny, that he had fallen in love with another man, Jack. but I feel Jack knew what had happened and wanted to build on it.
He knew Ennis was the *one* he could love forever when they came back down to Signal. Ennis knew it too, but he did'nt feel he could face the storm of society's wrath or get past the fear of the history of Earl and Rich. The reality of his love for Jack vs society came head to head back in Signal and he chose a "normal" life with Alma over Jack on the surface,trying to bury that fact that he really wanted to go with Jack. Again I feel Jack knew all of this, but had to let go. Ennis did'nt give him much choice with his "see ya around" grand finaly. But Jack knew better imo. It took 4 years, two phony marriages with kids for Jack to recieve confirmation for what he knew back in Signal when he drove away was right. The reunion scene said it all. MO
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Think this means the film have to bee seen againg at least a couple of times :)
That means that we all should go pop it in the DVD player and see whether it was when Jack dipped his bandana in the hot water after the horse threw Ennis, or when he stipped down and those corners of those beautiful blue eyes were being overworked from tying to sneak sideshots, or was it in the beginning when they were in the bar.... ;)
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I believe they fell in love the moment they set eyes on each other at Aguire's trailor. Neither knew or understood it but it was there from the very first moment. Jack came to realize it sooner than Ennis but it was what we all hear about and believe can happen, love at first sight. The SS and movie were all about them trying to deal with it as they progressed through life without knowing what it really was.
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That means that we all should go pop it in the DVD player and see whether it was when Jack dipped his bandana in the hot water after the horse threw Ennis, or when he stipped down and those corners of those beautiful blue eyes were being overworked from tying to sneak sideshots, or was it in the beginning when they were in the bar.... ;)
Considering their backgrounds, I don't believe their feelings of love were immediate. I do believe they knew they were comfortable with each other at the bar. Ennis seemed to have little trouble opening up about the death of his parents. I can't imagine he talked about it much.
I believe Jack's growing feelings were more obvious early on. He was quite pleased when Ennis talked about his upbringing after his parents were gone. Since Ennis wasn't much of a talker Jack had to have felt Ennis liked him and was more comfortable around him. Personally, I would have considered it a compliment to get that much out of him.
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I believe they fell in love the moment they set eyes on each other at Aguire's trailor. Neither knew or understood it but it was there from the very first moment. Jack came to realize it sooner than Ennis but it was what we all hear about and believe can happen, love at first sight. The SS and movie were all about them trying to deal with it as they progressed through life without knowing what it really was.
Sigh, that's just beautiful....
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Sigh, that's just beautiful....
It's how I see it FlwrChild and what I have always believed is possible. Not many of us are that lucky, but those who have known it or believe know what I am talking about. O0
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I believe they fell in love the moment they set eyes on each other at Aguire's trailor. Neither knew or understood it but it was there from the very first moment. Jack came to realize it sooner than Ennis but it was what we all hear about and believe can happen, love at first sight. The SS and movie were all about them trying to deal with it as they progressed through life without knowing what it really was.
Interesting comments from BBBOY and ragtimecowboy.
I admit that there is that possibility: that they were in love even before they knew it. Did they really understand the nature of the attraction when they first met outside Aguirre's trailer?
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Considering their backgrounds, I don't believe their feelings of love were immediate. I do believe they knew they were comfortable with each other at the bar. Ennis seemed to have little trouble opening up about the death of his parents. I can't imagine he talked about it much.
I believe Jack's growing feelings were more obvious early on. He was quite pleased when Ennis talked about his upbringing after his parents were gone. Since Ennis wasn't much of a talker Jack had to have felt Ennis liked him and was more comfortable around him. Personally, I would have considered it a compliment to get that much out of him.
I somehow feel that each one felt that there was something different here. I had always wondered why Ennis opened up to Jack in the bar -- too soon, perhaps, to share such intimate and painful details about one's life with a new acquaintance. The fact that he was comfortable with Jack does seem to indicate that there was something inside of him that "recognized" and trusted Jack implicitly. I also get this feeling sometimes -- when you feel that you like a person from the onset. In some cases, it was as close as I cam to love at first sight.
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I somehow feel that each one felt that there was something different here. I had always wondered why Ennis opened up to Jack in the bar -- too soon, perhaps, to share such intimate and painful details about one's life with a new acquaintance. The fact that he was comfortable with Jack does seem to indicate that there was something inside of him that "recognized" and trusted Jack implicitly. I also get this feeling sometimes -- when you feel that you like a person from the onset. In some cases, it was as close as I cam to love at first sight.
I suppose that,beyond sexual attraction only,each one perceived that there was something that,at least,could lead them to become good friends and that it was from almost the beginning.And that for Ennis above all,was very important to meet someone who didn't belong to the "macho"man environment he was used to live in,I'm sure it was...This and his shared need for warmth(speaking in all the senses)made the rest from the bar scene onwards.
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I suppose that,beyond sexual attraction only,each one perceived that there was something that,at least,could lead them to become good friends and that it was from almost the beginning.And that for Ennis above all,was very important to meet someone who didn't belong to the "macho"man environment he was used to live in,I'm sure it was...This and his shared need for warmth(speaking in all the senses)made the rest from the bar scene onwards.
Somehow, I had felt that the attraction came first -- as a kind of gut reaction, you know? Then, each one -- Jack, especially -- started to probe and see if there was something beyond the sexual, in the realm of friendship and likeability. Does this make sense? I think with our lovers, it is like this many times. Initially, physical attraction piques our interest, and then we start exploring the indovidual for signs of mutual interests or characteristics.
In the end, I think love is founded on both. Nature is wise in attracting us initially via physical attraction, and then proceeds to delve into deeper, more emotional/personal matters.
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I believe they fell in love the moment they set eyes on each other at Aguire's trailor. Neither knew or understood it but it was there from the very first moment. Jack came to realize it sooner than Ennis but it was what we all hear about and believe can happen, love at first sight. The SS and movie were all about them trying to deal with it as they progressed through life without knowing what it really was.
I'm a romantic idealist, and I believe in love at first sight. From the moment they first saw each other, these boys fell in love. I think they both realized it very soon, as with true love, you just know it, because you feel it with all your heart and soul. You can tell from the beginning that it wasn't just attraction...there was something deeper that both Jack and Ennis felt, it was true love, right from the start. They both opened up their feelings to each other from early on, and it's because they had that feeling of trust. They made each other feel free and complete, and you could tell that from the moment they met, their lives would never be the same because they had found true love. Each one showed the other the meaning and beauty of true love and how strong and unbreakable that wonderful bond is. Before that, Jack and Ennis didn't really have much meaning in their lives, but when they fell in love with each other, they both became aware of what it really is to live and what happiness is, because all they needed was each other, together, they were in heaven.
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I'm a romantic idealist, and I believe in love at first sight. From the moment they first saw each other, these boys fell in love. I think they both realized it very soon, as with true love, you just know it, because you feel it with all your heart and soul. You can tell from the beginning that it wasn't just attraction...there was something deeper that both Jack and Ennis felt, it was true love, right from the start. They both opened up their feelings to each other from early on, and it's because they had that feeling of trust. They made each other feel free and complete, and you could tell that from the moment they met, their lives would never be the same because they had found true love. Each one showed the other the meaning and beauty of true love and how strong and unbreakable that wonderful bond is. Before that, Jack and Ennis didn't really have much meaning in their lives, but when they fell in love with each other, they both became aware of what it really is to live and what happiness is, because all they needed was each other, together, they were in heaven.
Well, I do tend to believe that love at first sight does happen. :)
So you would say that it all started when they dirst set eyes on each other outside Aguirre's trailer...
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I'm a romantic idealist, and I believe in love at first sight. From the moment they first saw each other, these boys fell in love. I think they both realized it very soon, as with true love, you just know it, because you feel it with all your heart and soul. You can tell from the beginning that it wasn't just attraction...there was something deeper that both Jack and Ennis felt, it was true love, right from the start. They both opened up their feelings to each other from early on, and it's because they had that feeling of trust. They made each other feel free and complete, and you could tell that from the moment they met, their lives would never be the same because they had found true love. Each one showed the other the meaning and beauty of true love and how strong and unbreakable that wonderful bond is. Before that, Jack and Ennis didn't really have much meaning in their lives, but when they fell in love with each other, they both became aware of what it really is to live and what happiness is, because all they needed was each other, together, they were in heaven.
I love the idea of love at first sight too, me being a complete romantic. I'd like to believe it was love at first sight for Ennis and Jack, but I'm not sure....I certainly think there was a connection, a spark, something they couldnt quite articulate (especially Ennis), and as time went on, that thing between them grew, stronger and stronger, until they realised. So maybe, on thinking back,they both, if they'd been able to say it, knew that as soon as they saw the other, a fire had started, and it never went out. I think it was a slow burning thing.....I think too that Jack was able to allow himself to think he was in love with Ennis far sooner than Ennis ever could. I'm not saying Ennis didnt feel that, he was just so repressed there is no way he would admit that to himself. Thats why we see him use anger as a way of expressing is feelings - anger when he sees Jack putting the tent down, anger when Jack tells him its time to go, anger when Jack has gone. I think we can safely assume that at this stage, the anger Ennis is feeling is his love for Jack Twist.
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I love the idea of love at first sight too, me being a complete romantic. I'd like to believe it was love at first sight for Ennis and Jack, but I'm not sure....I certainly think there was a connection, a spark, something they couldnt quite articulate (especially Ennis), and as time went on, that thing between them grew, stronger and stronger, until they realised. So maybe, on thinking back,they both, if they'd been able to say it, knew that as soon as they saw the other, a fire had started, and it never went out. I think it was a slow burning thing.....I think too that Jack was able to allow himself to think he was in love with Ennis far sooner than Ennis ever could. I'm not saying Ennis didnt feel that, he was just so repressed there is no way he would admit that to himself. Thats why we see him use anger as a way of expressing is feelings - anger when he sees Jack putting the tent down, anger when Jack tells him its time to go, anger when Jack has gone. I think we can safely assume that at this stage, the anger Ennis is feeling is his love for Jack Twist.
I can quote what you say almost word by word,Chris; and I say "almost" because I'm not so romantic as I used to be-time flies like an arrow,you know¡-.So,as you,I'm not so sure that it was "love at first sight" because this words are often mistaken by "attraction at first sight",that's what Jack felt from the very moment he saw Ennis.He was more open to is feelings and sensations,but in any case there must be a basis to build something deeper;and that both of them found this building with time,sharing duties and confidences up in the mountain.From the rest of your post,I only can say that you've taken the words from my mouth¡. ^f^
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I can quote what you say almost word by word,Chris; and I say "almost" because I'm not so romantic as I used to be-time flies like an arrow,you know¡-.So,as you,I'm not so sure that it was "love at first sight" because this words are often mistaken by "attraction at first sight",that's what Jack felt from the very moment he saw Ennis.He was more open to is feelings and sensations,but in any case there must be a basis to build something deeper;and that both of them found this building with time,sharing duties and confidences up in the mountain.From the rest of your post,I only can say that you've taken the words from my mouth¡. ^f^
Thanks mpj, I'm glad what I said made some sense to you! I get so caught up in the emotions of the film, I'm not sure I'm expressing myself well.
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Thanks mpj, I'm glad what I said made some sense to you! I get so caught up in the emotions of the film, I'm not sure I'm expressing myself well.
Yes,you must be sure that it makes sense; what I'm not so sure in that what I say makes it for you because I don't know if I'm explaining myself well enough for language's problems... *^) .Anyhow,is always difficult to theorize about what one feels,or what another persons or characters can feel...they're things one FEEL and LIVE,not always can speak about it properly.
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Yes,you must be sure that it makes sense; what I'm not so sure in that what I say makes it for you because I don't know if I'm explaining myself well enough for language's problems... *^) .Anyhow,is always difficult to theorize about what one feels,or what another persons or characters can feel...they're things one FEEL and LIVE,not always can speak about it properly.
You explained yourself perfectly well, honestly, your english is amazing. :) I dont know how I would be able to convey my feelings in another language, so you are doing great. ^f^
It is hard to put things into words about feelings....and I think for someone like Ennis, who hardly talks at all, imagine how it must have been for him to have been hit by this thunderbolt of true love, standing in front him, and in the form of a man, no less? When I watch the scene outside Aguirre's trailer, I wonder what thoughts are going through Ennis's mind, what is he thinking, what is he feeling when he peeks out from under his hat to look at Jack? I bet his heart was pounding anyway.
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You explained yourself perfectly well, honestly, your english is amazing. :) I dont know how I would be able to convey my feelings in another language, so you are doing great. ^f^
It is hard to put things into words about feelings....and I think for someone like Ennis, who hardly talks at all, imagine how it must have been for him to have been hit by this thunderbolt of true love, standing in front him, and in the form of a man, no less? When I watch the scene outside Aguirre's trailer, I wonder what thoughts are going through Ennis's mind, what is he thinking, what is he feeling when he peeks out from under his hat to look at Jack? I bet his heart was pounding anyway.
:t) Chris¡ Well,as a matter of fact,I always say that I'm not explaining well in order you can answer that it's not true...ehem¡.Speaking seriously,it must have been difficult for Ennis not only for his difficulties in expressing himself; but above all for his difficulties in accepting himself as he was,not to speak but to FEEL...But I don't know if Ennis felt so shocked in the trailer's scene,do you think so?;I've always thought he felt uneasy for Jack's boldness,an unknown boy who looked at him so directly :-\\ .But I don't think that he felt specially attracted or stuff,perhaps he liked him more or less,but he couldn't allow himself it in that moment.Maybe I'm wrong.
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:t) Chris¡ Well,as a matter of fact,I always say that I'm not explaining well in order you can answer that it's not true...ehem¡.Speaking seriously,it must have been difficult for Ennis not only for his difficulties in expressing himself; but above all for his difficulties in accepting himself as he was,not to speak but to FEEL...But I don't know if Ennis felt so shocked in the trailer's scene,do you think so?;I've always thought he felt uneasy for Jack's boldness,an unknown boy who looked at him so directly :-\\ .But I don't think that he felt specially attracted or stuff,perhaps he liked him more or less,but he couldn't allow himself it in that moment.Maybe I'm wrong.
I wouldnt say you were wrong, or I am right - we dont know how Ennis was really feeling because there are no words and we dont hear what Ennis is thinking. I am only wishing that Ennis's heart was pounding away. sometimes it does that, when something is happening that is unusual, or exciting, but you dont know why. I agree though, that Ennis was probably feeling uneasy, with Jack's bold presence in front of him - I love how Jack walks towards Ennis, almost willing Ennis to look up at him. But that could excite you too, right? Even if you dont have a clue why.
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I wouldnt say you were wrong, or I am right - we dont know how Ennis was really feeling because there are no words and we dont hear what Ennis is thinking. I am only wishing that Ennis's heart was pounding away. sometimes it does that, when something is happening that is unusual, or exciting, but you dont know why. I agree though, that Ennis was probably feeling uneasy, with Jack's bold presence in front of him - I love how Jack walks towards Ennis, almost willing Ennis to look up at him. But that could excite you too, right? Even if you dont have a clue why.
Completely agree... :)
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Thanks mpj, I'm glad what I said made some sense to you! I get so caught up in the emotions of the film, I'm not sure I'm expressing myself well.
I echo MPJ, christie. You did express yourself well -- even if one is not necessarily a romantic. :)
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I am only wishing that Ennis's heart was pounding away. sometimes
Interesting -- I did wish the same thing.
I do think that he was a bit unnerved, but perhaps he was also unnerved at his own inner reactions at that moment -- was he perhaps a bit uncomfortable with them?
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I love the idea of love at first sight too, me being a complete romantic. I'd like to believe it was love at first sight for Ennis and Jack, but I'm not sure....I certainly think there was a connection, a spark, something they couldnt quite articulate (especially Ennis), and as time went on, that thing between them grew, stronger and stronger, until they realised. So maybe, on thinking back,they both, if they'd been able to say it, knew that as soon as they saw the other, a fire had started, and it never went out. I think it was a slow burning thing.....I think too that Jack was able to allow himself to think he was in love with Ennis far sooner than Ennis ever could. I'm not saying Ennis didnt feel that, he was just so repressed there is no way he would admit that to himself. Thats why we see him use anger as a way of expressing is feelings - anger when he sees Jack putting the tent down, anger when Jack tells him its time to go, anger when Jack has gone. I think we can safely assume that at this stage, the anger Ennis is feeling is his love for Jack Twist.
It's obvious from the way Jack looks at him and then looks down again, shyly, and then when he introduces himself, shaking hands, saying, "Jack Twist,"
to wich Ennis replies, "Ennis", and then Jack smiles and playfully says, "Your folks just stop at Ennis?" I think that was just one of the cutest things ever. The way they are looking at each other shyly really tells that there is something deep there, from the beginning, when they first laid eyes on each other. Immediately after, when they go to the bar, Ennis does this amazing thing when he opens up to Jack. I think it's obvious that Ennis wouldn't just tell his life's story to anyone, that Jack was probably the first person he'd ever told it to. I feel they both, from very early on, knew the feelings they had for each other. Ennis knew...otherwise he wouldn't have walked into the tent in the second scene. Ennis is a person who built a wall around himself, to protect himself from this cruel world. At first he appears to have this cool demeanor, he appears like he doesn't care, he has this hard-to-read expression on his face, but inside, he's a very sensitive, very emotional person. Behind that wall, Ennis is a very kind-hearted, loving, tender, caring, gentle soul, but he just doesn't show it to many people because he can't trust most people. Jack breaks down that wall, for when Ennis is around Jack, Ennis is just free to be himself. Throughout all those years, it is only when he and Jack are alone together that the wall comes down. Jack knew this about Ennis, and Ennis knew this about himself.
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It's obvious from the way Jack looks at him and then looks down again, shyly, and then when he introduces himself, shaking hands, saying, "Jack Twist,"
to wich Ennis replies, "Ennis", and then Jack smiles and playfully says, "Your folks just stop at Ennis?" I think that was just one of the cutest things ever. The way they are looking at each other shyly really tells that there is something deep there, from the beginning, when they first laid eyes on each other. Immediately after, when they go to the bar, Ennis does this amazing thing when he opens up to Jack. I think it's obvious that Ennis wouldn't just tell his life's story to anyone, that Jack was probably the first person he'd ever told it to. I feel they both, from very early on, knew the feelings they had for each other. Ennis knew...otherwise he wouldn't have walked into the tent in the second scene. Ennis is a person who built a wall around himself, to protect himself from this cruel world. At first he appears to have this cool demeanor, he appears like he doesn't care, he has this hard-to-read expression on his face, but inside, he's a very sensitive, very emotional person. Behind that wall, Ennis is a very kind-hearted, loving, tender, caring, gentle soul, but he just doesn't show it to many people because he can't trust most people. Jack breaks down that wall, for when Ennis is around Jack, Ennis is just free to be himself. Throughout all those years, it is only when he and Jack are alone together that the wall comes down. Jack knew this about Ennis, and Ennis knew this about himself.
I love that.....and its so true. Well said, I couldnt have expressed as good as that!
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Interesting -- I did wish the same thing.
I do think that he was a bit unnerved, but perhaps he was also unnerved at his own inner reactions at that moment -- was he perhaps a bit uncomfortable with them?
Probably. He probably didnt expect Jack to get out of his truck and be so brazen....I remember watching that scene for the first time, and thinking "wow, look at him, he's checking Ennis out." That's why I love the little peeks Ennis gives Jack,when he thinks Jack isnt looking....he's probably thinking "I cant look" but then looks anyway.
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Probably. He probably didnt expect Jack to get out of his truck and be so brazen....I remember watching that scene for the first time, and thinking "wow, look at him, he's checking Ennis out." That's why I love the little peeks Ennis gives Jack,when he thinks Jack isnt looking....he's probably thinking "I cant look" but then looks anyway.
Ennis's peeks were certainly bashful -- as if he felt the heat of Jack's gaze falling on him.
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The look on Ennis' face when he sees Jack for the first time in four years, and how he smiles, runs down to him and kisses him so passionately, tell me that these two were in love since the day they'd met. It's clear to see that there hasn't been a day that's gone by in the past four years that Ennis hasn't thought of Jack. They'd both been thinking of each other constantly since the day they parted ways, and felt like they were in heaven when they were reunited.
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The look on Ennis' face when he sees Jack for the first time in four years, and how he smiles, runs down to him and kisses him so passionately, tell me that these two were in love since the day they'd met. It's clear to see that there hasn't been a day that's gone by in the past four years that Ennis hasn't thought of Jack. They'd both been thinking of each other constantly since the day they parted ways, and felt like they were in heaven when they were reunited.
I love how you describe their reunion athena...really beautiful and vivid. I get goosebumps thinking about it. I cant argue with you when you say they have probably been thinking of each other ever since they parted ways.....men dont hug other men like that, not even fishing buddies.
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I love how you describe their reunion athena...really beautiful and vivid. I get goosebumps thinking about it. I cant argue with you when you say they have probably been thinking of each other ever since they parted ways.....men dont hug other men like that, not even fishing buddies.
As soon as Ennis hears the sound of Jack's truck, he runs up to the window and then runs down to him with a smile of the purest joy. And that passionate kiss says it all...they had the truest, deepest love possible, and they knew it.
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As soon as Ennis hears the sound of Jack's truck, he runs up to the window and then runs down to him with a smile of the purest joy. And that passionate kiss says it all...they had the truest, deepest love possible, and they knew it.
God, you are giving me goosebumps!! I love to re-live that moment. I love how he takes the steps about 5 at a time - he couldnt get to Jack quick enough if he tried. <^( <^( <^(
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im gonna be the sap in this topic and say im pretty sure they started to fall in love as soon as they shuck hands after coming out of aguires trailer for the first time i could just kind off see the way they both looked they had that look in theire eyes so sweet <^(
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im gonna be the sap in this topic and say im pretty sure they started to fall in love as soon as they shuck hands after coming out of aguires trailer for the first time i could just kind off see the way they both looked they had that look in theire eyes so sweet <^(
Yeah, they fell in love right then and there, from when they first saw each other, and they were shyly stealing glances at each other. That's how true love happens, my friend. <^(
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Yeah, they fell in love right then and there, from when they first saw each other, and they were shyly stealing glances at each other. That's how true love happens, my friend. <^(
:) yup <^( awwwwww its so sweet
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Yeah, they fell in love right then and there, from when they first saw each other, and they were shyly stealing glances at each other. That's how true love happens, my friend. <^(
Love at firs sight?
I too believe they fell in love right then and there. I can't get over Ennis checking out Jack as soon as he turned his back.
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im gonna be the sap in this topic and say im pretty sure they started to fall in love as soon as they shuck hands after coming out of aguires trailer for the first time i could just kind off see the way they both looked they had that look in theire eyes so sweet <^(
That's not being a sap thats just how you see it....like I've said before, I love the idea of love at first sight but I'm not sure it was, completely, but I do believe they were both struck with something, a feeling that this was somehow different to something they'd ever felt before. I suppose you could argue that could be love?
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Love at firs sight?
I too believe they fell in love right then and there. I can't get over Ennis checking out Jack as soon as he turned his back.
I love how they looked at each other. From the moment they saw each other, they knew this was true love, it was something that found them when they least expected it.
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I love how they looked at each other. From the moment they saw each other, they knew this was true love, it was something that found them when they least expected it.
yup its so beautiful <^( i just wish things had been better and easier for them
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That's not being a sap thats just how you see it....like I've said before, I love the idea of love at first sight but I'm not sure it was, completely, but I do believe they were both struck with something, a feeling that this was somehow different to something they'd ever felt before. I suppose you could argue that could be love?
I'm afraid to be the most prosaic of you all,but I agree with what you say,Chris; it's nice to think in love at first sight,but it's more realistic to believe-as you and me do-in "something",call it attraction,call it emphaty,called how you can or want... ^f^ True and deep love only can be so with a basis,as I said in another post;they had this basis only by sharing their loneliness and trust,their duties and leisure time,and a lot of moments when they saw they're different,but complementaries.That they were able to give the other what he was lacked to,what they didn't get in their unpleasant family life until that moment...
What's more,I believe that from the very moment he saw Ennis,Jack was thinking in having "something" with him,in a mere sexual way :d) ;but he was kind of "the fished fisher"-I don't know if this makes sense...-and he fell in love more than he could believed before.IMHO.
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I'm afraid to be the most prosaic of you all,but I agree with what you say,Chris; it's nice to think in love at first sight,but it's more realistic to believe-as you and me do-in "something",call it attraction,call it emphaty,called how you can or want... ^f^ True and deep love only can be so with a basis,as I said in another post;they had this basis only by sharing their loneliness and trust,their duties and leisure time,and a lot of moments when they saw they're different,but complementaries.That they were able to give the other what he was lacked to,what they didn't get in their unpleasant family life until that moment...
What's more,I believe that from the very moment he saw Ennis,Jack was thinking in having "something" with him,in a mere sexual way :d) ;but he was kind of "the fished fisher"-I don't know if this makes sense...-and he fell in love more than he could believed before.IMHO.
Well, I believe they did fall in love at first sight, but as for when they actually realized they had found true love...I think Jack realized it very soon, on the first day they met, because true love happens like that, it comes out of nowhere. As for when Ennis realized it...it was before the second tent scene. He had realized it partially before, when he first met Jack, but when he decided to walk into that tent and be with Jack...he knew completely that it was true love. From the moment they saw each other outside the trailer, they felt something, at first perhaps it seemed inexplicable, but they quickly realized that it wasn't just mere attraction, it was indeed true love. Their bond was deep from the beginning. You can tell from how Jack talked to Ennis, and how quickly Ennis opened up to him and told him his life's story. That was the first time Ennis had revealed details about his life and himself to anyone, so he must have felt a lot of trust, he already felt that Jack understood him. These boys had that deep bond right from the start. They were meant for each other and destiny brought them together that day outside Aguirre's trailer. I wish that destiny had kept them together, and they had never parted ways. And it would have been like that, if only society wasn't so cruel and ignorant. But I know that though they were apart all those years, they were always in each other's hearts, and their love remained strong, because it was the truest love. And I hope after they left this earthly life, they would be forever young and free and happy, in a place much better than this world, a place with no cruelty and despair, they would be forever together in heaven. <^(
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Well, I believe they did fall in love at first sight, but as for when they actually realized they had found true love...I think Jack realized it very soon, on the first day they met, because true love happens like that, it comes out of nowhere. As for when Ennis realized it...it was before the second tent scene. He had realized it partially before, when he first met Jack, but when he decided to walk into that tent and be with Jack...he knew completely that it was true love. From the moment they saw each other outside the trailer, they felt something, at first perhaps it seemed inexplicable, but they quickly realized that it wasn't just mere attraction, it was indeed true love. Their bond was deep from the beginning. You can tell from how Jack talked to Ennis, and how quickly Ennis opened up to him and told him his life's story. That was the first time Ennis had revealed details about his life and himself to anyone, so he must have felt a lot of trust, he already felt that Jack understood him. These boys had that deep bond right from the start. They were meant for each other and destiny brought them together that day outside Aguirre's trailer. I wish that destiny had kept them together, and they had never parted ways. And it would have been like that, if only society wasn't so cruel and ignorant. But I know that though they were apart all those years, they were always in each other's hearts, and their love remained strong, because it was the truest love. And I hope after they left this earthly life, they would be forever young and free and happy, in a place much better than this world, a place with no cruelty and despair, they would be forever together in heaven. <^(
hmm i agree with this good post.
as i said before i beleive the first time the laid eyes on each other the love was there i think if love is there its there its in the sould and that you can fall in love with some when you first see them even if your brain doesnt realise at first.
sorry if that made no sense :P
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Well, I believe they did fall in love at first sight, but as for when they actually realized they had found true love...I think Jack realized it very soon, on the first day they met, because true love happens like that, it comes out of nowhere. As for when Ennis realized it...it was before the second tent scene. He had realized it partially before, when he first met Jack, but when he decided to walk into that tent and be with Jack...he knew completely that it was true love. From the moment they saw each other outside the trailer, they felt something, at first perhaps it seemed inexplicable, but they quickly realized that it wasn't just mere attraction, it was indeed true love. Their bond was deep from the beginning. You can tell from how Jack talked to Ennis, and how quickly Ennis opened up to him and told him his life's story. That was the first time Ennis had revealed details about his life and himself to anyone, so he must have felt a lot of trust, he already felt that Jack understood him. These boys had that deep bond right from the start. They were meant for each other and destiny brought them together that day outside Aguirre's trailer. I wish that destiny had kept them together, and they had never parted ways. And it would have been like that, if only society wasn't so cruel and ignorant. But I know that though they were apart all those years, they were always in each other's hearts, and their love remained strong, because it was the truest love. And I hope after they left this earthly life, they would be forever young and free and happy, in a place much better than this world, a place with no cruelty and despair, they would be forever together in heaven. <^(
See, I read your post and just love all the things you say about falling in love on sight - but then I read mpj's post, and agree with her's too! ;D ^*()
I suppose, for me, it comes down to wanting to believe it was love at first sight, but probably thinking that they definitely had a connection, something they couldnt name, and eventually that something was given a name - love. I think you're right about what happens at the time of SNIT....Ennis debating whether to go in, and then finally giving in to his feelings, says in actions what he couldnt say in words....he was in love with Jack then.
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See, I read your post and just love all the things you say about falling in love on sight - but then I read mpj's post, and agree with her's too! ;D ^*()
I suppose, for me, it comes down to wanting to believe it was love at first sight, but probably thinking that they definitely had a connection, something they couldnt name, and eventually that something was given a name - love. I think you're right about what happens at the time of SNIT....Ennis debating whether to go in, and then finally giving in to his feelings, says in actions what he couldnt say in words....he was in love with Jack then.
I keep on insisting-thanks,Chris...-because I don't believe so much in love at first sight as you; it could be, because nothing is already said,read,heard or LIVED in Love's questions,right?. ^f^ But I wonder if maybe we're all confusing facts like Ennis opening in the beginning as love,when for me it's a kind of good vibration,empathy,sympathy,chemistry...Yes,Athena,of course it's a bond,something intangible who united them,something that opened the door to what would be named LOVE afterwards...with the coexistence and the sharing,with the basis a lost lasting love must have.MHO.
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I keep on insisting-thanks,Chris...-because I don't believe so much in love at first sight as you; it could be, because nothing is already said,read,heard or LIVED in Love's questions,right?. ^f^ But I wonder if maybe we're all confusing facts like Ennis opening in the beginning as love,when for me it's a kind of good vibration,empathy,sympathy,chemistry...Yes,Athena,of course it's a bond,something intangible who united them,something that opened the door to what would be named LOVE afterwards...with the coexistence and the sharing,with the basis a lost lasting love must have.MHO.
They fell in love when they first saw each other, but yes, it was something inexplicable, intangible on that first day. They had this deep bond from the beginning they couldn't explain, their souls had a deep connection, and of course they didn't immediately know it was true love from the first day...but that's what it was. They definitely knew they liked each other very much from the moment they met. And they would very soon realize what it was, that it was pure, true love. Jack realized it from the first few days, and Ennis realized it before he walked into that tent on the second night.
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I feel it was attraction, friendship and love in that order.
The attraction and friendship were the basis on which the love could potentially grow. Love at first sight is a romantic notion. Indeed we seem to have true hopeless romantics here, but looks can be decieving, there had to be something about Jack that some one like Ennis can grasp onto other than good looks.. Jack was gorgeous, yes but what was it about Jack that could make Ennis feel this way and over ride his fear of attraction for another man?? Jack, a very giving person was generous with his *goofy,charmin,* down to earth personality. Jack, non-threatening and unspoiled, gentle and concerned.. Ennis had very low self-esteem and Jack was non-judgemental of that, giving Ennis more courage to open up.. Once Jack gained Ennis's trust, the walls came down.
Had Jack had a different personality, say arrogant , selfish ,homophobic, and overbearing, of course this would have never worked out. They did'nt clash, instead, the fit together like hand in glove. The chemistry, eventually off the page. Ennis falls in love with the essence of Jack, the person Jack was, once he got to know him. Jack's ability to make him feel that he was included in his world. The fact that Jack was a man, should have been a hindrance in Ennis's phyche. In stead he is drawn to Jack in large part because he ...is ...well just ..Jack. who happens to be a man. Nothing and no one else was gonna do. With Jack ,Ennis learned what true love was, but Jack had to openly show Ennis who he was first, in order for Ennis to fall in love with him.
I just don't feel that Ennis and Jack took one look at each other that day in front of Aguirre's trailor and said * I love that man*., or * I'm in love with him* Don't think it's that simple. %( Sometimes loves has the element of surprise, Only after sufficient complementary doses of each other do I feel that, suddenly, they discover they're in love with each other. In SNIT I feel Ennis is seeking some kind of confirmation concerning what he was feeling. He finds it in Jack's eyes. To me Ennis's eyes are shyly searching Jack's for answers and discovers love there. could it be true? , Jack's eyes answer yeah, it is true Ennis ,guess what? Were in love and knowingly seals it with a kiss. The journey of discovery becomes complete and niether can deny that something special had transpired between them that is beyond mere attraction and friendship. This was something alot more deep. This is Love. 2 cent.
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See, I read your post and just love all the things you say about falling in love on sight - but then I read mpj's post, and agree with her's too! ;D ^*()
I suppose, for me, it comes down to wanting to believe it was love at first sight, but probably thinking that they definitely had a connection, something they couldnt name, and eventually that something was given a name - love. I think you're right about what happens at the time of SNIT....Ennis debating whether to go in, and then finally giving in to his feelings, says in actions what he couldnt say in words....he was in love with Jack then.
It could be both, you know. It's common for people to realize in hindsight that they were in love before they were even fully conscious of it. UNderstanding came later. Ususally, it is a mix of sponteniety and gradual progression, with the former unconscious, and the latter consicous...
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It could be both, you know. It's common for people to realize in hindsight that they were in love before they were even fully conscious of it. UNderstanding came later. Ususally, it is a mix of sponteniety and gradual progression, with the former unconscious, and the latter consicous...
Yeah, Thomas, I think that's what I was trying to say, in a round about way!!! But the romantic in me wants to believe they knew it. <^(
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Yeah, Thomas, I think that's what I was trying to say, in a round about way!!! But the romantic in me wants to believe they knew it. <^(
At a certain level, they probably did. I think in real life, this is what makes people realize later on that they were in love all along... :)
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At a certain level, they probably did. I think in real life, this is what makes people realize later on that they were in love all along... :)
yes i think this is true it wasnt like when they first met they were like "oh, i love this man" but their souls did love each other i think love like this is transendant of how long you have known each other but i do agree that they never realised their love straight away.
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I feel it was attraction, friendship and love in that order.
The attraction and friendship were the basis on which the love could potentially grow. Love at first sight is a romantic notion. Indeed we seem to have true hopeless romantics here, but looks can be decieving, there had to be something about Jack that some one like Ennis can grasp onto other than good looks.. Jack was gorgeous, yes but what was it about Jack that could make Ennis feel this way and over ride his fear of attraction for another man?? Jack, a very giving person was generous with his *goofy,charmin,* down to earth personality. Jack, non-threatening and unspoiled, gentle and concerned.. Ennis had very low self-esteem and Jack was non-judgemental of that, giving Ennis more courage to open up.. Once Jack gained Ennis's trust, the walls came down.
Had Jack had a different personality, say arrogant , selfish ,homophobic, and overbearing, of course this would have never worked out. They did'nt clash, instead, the fit together like hand in glove. The chemistry, eventually off the page. Ennis falls in love with the essence of Jack, the person Jack was, once he got to know him. Jack's ability to make him feel that he was included in his world. The fact that Jack was a man, should have been a hindrance in Ennis's phyche. In stead he is drawn to Jack in large part because he ...is ...well just ..Jack. who happens to be a man. Nothing and no one else was gonna do. With Jack ,Ennis learned what true love was, but Jack had to openly show Ennis who he was first, in order for Ennis to fall in love with him.
I just don't feel that Ennis and Jack took one look at each other that day in front of Aguirre's trailor and said * I love that man*., or * I'm in love with him* Don't think it's that simple. %( Sometimes loves has the element of surprise, Only after sufficient complementary doses of each other do I feel that, suddenly, they discover they're in love with each other. In SNIT I feel Ennis is seeking some kind of confirmation concerning what he was feeling. He finds it in Jack's eyes. To me Ennis's eyes are shyly searching Jack's for answers and discovers love there. could it be true? , Jack's eyes answer yeah, it is true Ennis ,guess what? Were in love and knowingly seals it with a kiss. The journey of discovery becomes complete and niether can deny that something special had transpired between them that is beyond mere attraction and friendship. This was something alot more deep. This is Love. 2 cent.
You're right. Jack had exactly the right personality. When Jack introduces himself and says, "Your folks just stop at Ennis?" and then says, "Nice to meet you, Ennis Del Mar." and shakes Ennis' hand and smiles...he's being so kind to Ennis. I don't think that Ennis knew many people in his life who were kind to him. That's one of the reasons he'd built that wall around himself. So for the first time in Ennis' life, there's this person who genuinely likes him and is being genuinely kind to him, and I think that meant the world to Ennis. They had an intense bond and liking for each other right from that first day, although they didn't quite comprehend it yet. Over the next few weeks, they spent a lot of time with each other, and Ennis for the first time felt he had someone who understood him, that he'd found someone who liked him just the way he was and brought his true self out. At some point Jack realized what that inexplicable feeling was...it was true love, he had found his soulmate, Ennis. Jack had definitely realized this by the time Ennis had that cut on his face from falling, and Jack trys to tend to the cut. He didn't care that Ennis had lost the food, all he cared about was if Ennis was okay. Ennis realized it right before he walked into the tent on the SNIT. When he decided to go in there and be with Jack...he knew one hundred percent that he truly loved this person, and that he had found his soulmate. And you are right about how Jack confirmed Ennis' feelings with that beautiful look of pure love that he gave Ennis as he gently stroked his cheek. It reminds me of that Bryan Adams' song "Heaven". There's a line that goes "Love is all that I need, and I found it there in your heart." Love is all that Ennis ever needed in his life, and he found it right there in Jack's heart. When Ennis searched Jack's eyes for meaning, like you said, he found that pure, true love reflected in them. From when they first met, Jack saw Ennis for what he truly was, a sensitive, kind, lonely, emotional, gentle soul who felt lost in the world, and had built a wall around himself to protect himself from a cruel world full of people who didn't understand him. Jack brought out the true Ennis. So yes, they realized that it was true love right before the SNIT, but from the beginning their souls had connected, it was just inexplicable then.
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I feel it was attraction, friendship and love in that order.
The attraction and friendship were the basis on which the love could potentially grow. Love at first sight is a romantic notion. Indeed we seem to have true hopeless romantics here, but looks can be decieving, there had to be something about Jack that some one like Ennis can grasp onto other than good looks.. Jack was gorgeous, yes but what was it about Jack that could make Ennis feel this way and over ride his fear of attraction for another man?? Jack, a very giving person was generous with his *goofy,charmin,* down to earth personality. Jack, non-threatening and unspoiled, gentle and concerned.. Ennis had very low self-esteem and Jack was non-judgemental of that, giving Ennis more courage to open up.. Once Jack gained Ennis's trust, the walls came down.
Had Jack had a different personality, say arrogant , selfish ,homophobic, and overbearing, of course this would have never worked out. They didn't clash, instead, the fit together like hand in glove. The chemistry, eventually off the page. Ennis falls in love with the essence of Jack, the person Jack was, once he got to know him. Jack's ability to make him feel that he was included in his world. The fact that Jack was a man, should have been a hindrance in Ennis's phyche. In stead he is drawn to Jack in large part because he ...is ...well just ..Jack. who happens to be a man. Nothing and no one else was gonna do. With Jack ,Ennis learned what true love was, but Jack had to openly show Ennis who he was first, in order for Ennis to fall in love with him.
I just don't feel that Ennis and Jack took one look at each other that day in front of Aguirre's trailor and said * I love that man*., or * I'm in love with him* Don't think it's that simple. %( Sometimes loves has the element of surprise, Only after sufficient complementary doses of each other do I feel that, suddenly, they discover they're in love with each other. In SNIT I feel Ennis is seeking some kind of confirmation concerning what he was feeling. He finds it in Jack's eyes. To me Ennis's eyes are shyly searching Jack's for answers and discovers love there. could it be true? , Jack's eyes answer yeah, it is true Ennis ,guess what? Were in love and knowingly seals it with a kiss. The journey of discovery becomes complete and niether can deny that something special had transpired between them that is beyond mere attraction and friendship. This was something alot more deep. This is Love. 2 cent.
I quote this post word by word.Ennis fall in love with Jack because he was not just like Ennis himself was, but a man who could give him what he needed from his character differences with him,and precisely for these differences...No,if Jack has been similar to Ennis the relationship hadn't worked so much and so well;but making Ennis feel important,needed,and appreciated was like an inner turmoil for him.Both emotionally,sentimentally and psychally.He was given all the affection and caring he needed because he hadn't had it from his childhood,from somebody who needed him and he needed,who cared for him and whom he could care for...And yes,parting from an initial attraction,then friendship-they needed each other,I repeat,and managed to open to each other as never before...and later,love.IMO.
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yes i think this is true it wasnt like when they first met they were like "oh, i love this man" but their souls did love each other i think love like this is transendant of how long you have known each other but i do agree that they never realised their love straight away.
And it is so typical that even when we begin to be conscious of love, we invariably hide it even from our own selves, making excuses and subtle justifications. I think that in real life, there is no single "moment" when one falls in love...
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And it is so typical that even when we begin to be conscious of love, we invariably hide it even from our own selves, making excuses and subtle justifications. I think that in real life, there is no single "moment" when one falls in love...
yes i agree.
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I quote this post word by word.Ennis fall in love with Jack because he was not just like Ennis himself was, but a man who could give him what he needed from his character differences with him,and precisely for these differences...No,if Jack has been similar to Ennis the relationship hadn't worked so much and so well;but making Ennis feel important,needed,and appreciated was like an inner turmoil for him.Both emotionally,sentimentally and psychally.He was given all the affection and caring he needed because he hadn't had it from his childhood,from somebody who needed him and he needed,who cared for him and whom he could care for...And yes,parting from an initial attraction,then friendship-they needed each other,I repeat,and managed to open to each other as never before...and later,love.IMO.
Your comment reminds me of Ennis engaging Jack in the the playful wrestling match the next morning following SNIT. It is initiated by Ennis, knocking Jack's hat off to the ground. A simple gesture that speaks to Ennis finding the confirmation he so desperatly sought. To me it means that Ennis has embraced / accepted his feelings for Jack. Whatever it was that transpired in the tent the night before, gave Ennis that light, happy feeling that only love can bring. Sweet. An observation.
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Your comment reminds me of Ennis engaging Jack in the the playful wrestling match the next morning following SNIT. It is initiated by Ennis, knocking Jack's hat off to the ground. A simple gesture that speaks to Ennis finding the confirmation he so desperatly sought. To me it means that Ennis has embraced / accepted his feelings for Jack. Whatever it was that transpired in the tent the night before, gave Ennis that light, happy feeling that only love can bring. Sweet. An observation.
hmmm intresting and really sweet i love talking about the happy parts <^( <^(
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Your comment reminds me of Ennis engaging Jack in the the playful wrestling match the next morning following SNIT. It is initiated by Ennis, knocking Jack's hat off to the ground. A simple gesture that speaks to Ennis finding the confirmation he so desperatly sought. To me it means that Ennis has embraced / accepted his feelings for Jack. Whatever it was that transpired in the tent the night before, gave Ennis that light, happy feeling that only love can bring. Sweet. An observation.
Well, cinematically speaking, I think that this was indeed the scenes when we truly know that they are lovers.
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From the beginning there was something far more than mere attraction or infatuation. Ennis and Jack were destined to be together. It is true that there were no "sparks" from the beginning, that at first it was a very deep, close friendship that they had. But remember, that that is how true love always begins, as friendship, as an intense bond that makes two people seem like they have known each other their whole lives. Ennis and Jack could have walked by each other and never noticed each other, because true love often begins with overlooking. But no matter what, destiny bring the two souls together. Have you ever walked by a person, and when they were just a few feet away from you, you feel like you know them even though you've never talked to them before? I used to read sometimes about this feeling of deja vu, of seeing a person and feeling like you've met them before, even though you haven't. I'd experienced it with places before, or events, but never with people. Until recently. There is someone that when I was only a few feet away from, I had this strong, uncanny feeling that I couldn't explain, that I knew him. This is how I believe Ennis and Jack felt on the day they met. They'd never seen each other before, but each one could feel that there was something different about the other. A feeling neither of them had ever felt before about another person. They both felt connected to each other, two souls who were meeting for the first time in this life, in this world, but had met long before they ever came here. They couldn't explain the feeling, but I believe it was definitely there. And that's what enabled Ennis to open up to another human being for the first time in his life, when he told his life's story to Jack at the bar that day. Their souls already knew each other.
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From the beginning there was something far more than mere attraction or infatuation. Ennis and Jack were destined to be together. It is true that there were no "sparks" from the beginning, that at first it was a very deep, close friendship that they had. But remember, that that is how true love always begins, as friendship, as an intense bond that makes two people seem like they have known each other their whole lives. Ennis and Jack could have walked by each other and never noticed each other, because true love often begins with overlooking. But no matter what, destiny bring the two souls together. Have you ever walked by a person, and when they were just a few feet away from you, you feel like you know them even though you've never talked to them before? I used to read sometimes about this feeling of deja vu, of seeing a person and feeling like you've met them before, even though you haven't. I'd experienced it with places before, or events, but never with people. Until recently. There is someone that when I was only a few feet away from, I had this strong, uncanny feeling that I couldn't explain, that I knew him. This is how I believe Ennis and Jack felt on the day they met. They'd never seen each other before, but each one could feel that there was something different about the other. A feeling neither of them had ever felt before about another person. They both felt connected to each other, two souls who were meeting for the first time in this life, in this world, but had met long before they ever came here. They couldn't explain the feeling, but I believe it was definitely there. And that's what enabled Ennis to open up to another human being for the first time in his life, when he told his life's story to Jack at the bar that day. Their souls already knew each other.
I had many expreiences when I exchange a few words or simply pass by a person on the street or some cafe and felt impelled to know him. Sometimes, I act on the impulse. Sometimes, I don't. It's many of the latter instances that I have come to regret the most.
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They both felt connected to each other, two souls who were meeting for the first time in this life, in this world, but had met long before they ever came here. They couldn't explain the feeling, but I believe it was definitely there. And that's what enabled Ennis to open up to another human being for the first time in his life, when he told his life's story to Jack at the bar that day. Their souls already knew each other.
That's so beautiful and I totally believe in that!! <^( <^(