Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: athena0204 on Aug 13, 2009, 04:59 PM
-
How many people knew their secret? We know Alma and Aguirre definitely knew, but what about Monroe, what about Jack's parents, Lureen and her father, etc. ? How did they react and feel about knowing what they knew? For example, what do you think Alma felt about Ennis after she saw what she saw?
-
I would think that many of the members would think that Jack's mom know. And it is quite likely that John Twist also knew, although other members would beg to differ.
Also, I think Monroe knew. I think that it would have been difficult for Alma to have hidden this away from Monroe...
And I think Jr. kinda knew later on.
I think Jack's mom and Alma Jr. implicitly understood.
Monore probably took Alma's view of things and would have probably been censorious.
John Twist was (to me) evidently censorious.
-
Aguire and Alma for sure knew.
Jack's mom and his father knew too.
About Monroe knowing I'm not so sure Alma shared the reason why her first marriage failed, a man going for another man was not doing anything good for a wife's reputation and after all no one was talking about this in the mid 70's Wyoming.
For all the kids I'm quite sure they didn't suspect anything like their fathers falling for another man. Junior knew for sure her dad was heart broken, but she had no clue why.
My two cents! :)
-
Aguire and Alma for sure knew.
Jack's mom and his father knew too.
About Monroe knowing I'm not so sure Alma shared the reason why her first marriage failed, a man going for another man was not doing anything good for a wife's reputation and after all no one was talking about this in the mid 70's Wyoming.
For all the kids I'm quite sure they didn't suspect anything like their fathers falling for another man. Junior knew for sure her dad was heart broken, but she had no clue why.
My two cents! :)
Interesting comment about Monroe, Cham! He does seem like the type of guy who can spend the rest of his life not knowing...
-
How many people knew their secret?
Interesting question. Depends a little on the time frame, sort of what they knew and when they knew it. Here's my shot at a list and the folks that I think did know as indicated by the lines they were given. Those that I feel didn't know, or at least we're not given an indication they knew in the script, follows.
Aguirre: “While you stemmed the rose”
Alma: “You don’t go up there to fish.”
Lureen: “He said it was his favorite place” - I don't think she put it all together until the phone call.
Jr.: “Maybe he’s not the marrying kind” - Kids are very perceptive, knew the minute she met Jack.
Ma’ Twist: “You are welcome to go up there if you want” - Knew for sure when she saw Ennis w/ the shirts.
John Twist: “a notion the two a’ were gonna move up here, build a cabin”
Ol’ man Newsom: “You want your boy to grow up to be a man don’tcha?”
Randall: obviously knew half the story, can't tell if he knew about Ennis.
Cassie: nope, I think her line "I don't get you" indicates she was clueless.
Monroe: nada – at least not what we see in the movie.
Jenny: ?
LaShawn: If it didn't concern her directly, nope.
The second part of your question Athena0204, how did they react and feel about it, is, for me anyway, much more difficult to summarize. It a much tougher question.
my $0.02 :c)
-
Interesting question. Depends a little on the time frame, sort of what they knew and when they knew it. Here's my shot at a list and the folks that I think did know as indicated by the lines they were given. Those that I feel didn't know, or at least we're not given an indication they knew in the script, follows.
Aguirre: “While you stemmed the rose”
Alma: “You don’t go up there to fish.”
Lureen: “He said it was his favorite place” - I don't think she put it all together until the phone call.
Jr.: “Maybe he’s not the marrying kind” - Kids are very perceptive, knew the minute she met Jack.
Ma’ Twist: “You are welcome to go up there if you want” - Knew for sure when she saw Ennis w/ the shirts.
John Twist: “a notion the two a’ were gonna move up here, build a cabin”
Ol’ man Newsom: “You want your boy to grow up to be a man don’tcha?”
Randall: obviously knew half the story, can't tell if he knew about Ennis.
Cassie: nope, I think her line "I don't get you" indicates she was clueless.
Monroe: nada – at least not what we see in the movie.
Jenny: ?
LaShawn: If it didn't concern her directly, nope.
The second part of your question Athena0204, how did they react and feel about it, is, for me anyway, much more difficult to summarize. It a much tougher question.
my $0.02 :c)
Wonderful post, jackster! For me, the above quotes can indeed be interpreted in a more "knowing" light.
-
I tend to agree with Jackster here, except for Jr... I don't think that in 70', Wyoming children could be so perceptive to come to the right conclusion about their Dad's homosexual relationship, only by seeing Jack or something... Don't think so! ??? :s)
I always wonder did Alma tell girls... at lease Jr. who was older? I'm not so sure, but it wouldn't be a surprise, especially after the Thanksgiving day when Alma was disgusted by how girls look upon their Dad who was the main culprit for the disaster of their marriage. I suppose that she wanted to defame him and that she used her ultimate weapon...
One other thing ...all those people knew, but it was only Aguirre and Alma who saw the physical contact between Ennis and Jack. So I guess that others only suspected in a way, or anticipated their relationship without the complete idea about it in their heads. What I want to say is that Alma and Aguirre always had a reminder of the memory in their heads, but the others only had the idea, the imagination, not based on the fact, but on the circumstances... and they can always suspect themselves to be wrong. Only Alma and Aguirre were 100% sure.
%&) I hope that I managed to explain this... ???
-
I tend to think that Lureen knew, towards the latter part of her marriage to Jack. At the time when she mentions to Jack why he drives 14 hours a few times every year and why his friend couldn't just come to Texas, I think she didn't know at that point. But in the last few years of her marriage to Jack before he died, I'm sure she knew. I'm quite sure her father knew too, with the whole comment about being a man. That was Thanksgiving of 1977, so I think her father suspected it first, then told Lureen. I wonder how many people Alma told. I really think she told Monroe, and that Junior and Jenny overheard one of those conversations. Junior was very perceptive, so she knew from very early on since she was a child that Jack was very special to her father, but didn't know the kind of relationship they had until she was a teenager, around the time that Cassie showed up. I remember it was around this time that Ennis became extremely paranoid about people found out, because he had that conversation with Jack about if everything was "normal" in Texas, and about how he often had the feeling that people were looking him with weird glances everywhere he went. I wonder if it was just Ennis's paranoia, or if a bunch of people in Riverton really had heard something through the grapevine. With Riverton being a small town, it's easy for things like that to get around. So I wonder how many people knew or suspected. Remember Ennis was terrified to find out that Alma knew, and had known all those years, so it could have just been his paranoia and fear that he thought everyone around him seemed to suspect something. Jack's father I think had always known his son was gay, that's why he was so rude to Ennis. And of course Jack's mother knew too, those shirts hung in her closet for 20 years, so she knew not only was her son gay, but that Ennis was his true love.
-
I tend to agree with Jackster here, except for Jr... I don't think that in 70', Wyoming children could be so perceptive to come to the right conclusion about their Dad's homosexual relationship, only by seeing Jack or something... Don't think so! ??? :s)
I always wonder did Alma tell girls... at lease Jr. who was older? I'm not so sure, but it wouldn't be a surprise, especially after the Thanksgiving day when Alma was disgusted by how girls look upon their Dad who was the main culprit for the disaster of their marriage. I suppose that she wanted to defame him and that she used her ultimate weapon...
One other thing ...all those people knew, but it was only Aguirre and Alma who saw the physical contact between Ennis and Jack. So I guess that others only suspected in a way, or anticipated their relationship without the complete idea about it in their heads. What I want to say is that Alma and Aguirre always had a reminder of the memory in their heads, but the others only had the idea, the imagination, not based on the fact, but on the circumstances... and they can always suspect themselves to be wrong. Only Alma and Aguirre were 100% sure.
%&) I hope that I managed to explain this... ???
This is interesting.
The movie of course is ambiguous as far as Jr. knowing anything. Once can certainly surmise that she simply knew that her father wasn't the marrying kind. And we may attribute her attitude to a bit of jealousy?
I don't think Alma would have told the girls outright. But perhaps after the Thanksgiving dinner, she might have blurted out things when she was hysterical?
And yes, it is safe to say that, at the very least, Aguirre and Alma knew. And after the conversation with Ennis, it is almost sure that Lureen knew. Even Anne Hathaway "admitted" as much with her reaction during the Oprah interview...
-
This is interesting.
The movie of course is ambiguous as far as Jr. knowing anything. Once can certainly surmise that she simply knew that her father wasn't the marrying kind. And we may attribute her attitude to a bit of jealousy?
I don't think Alma would have told the girls outright. But perhaps after the Thanksgiving dinner, she might have blurted out things when she was hysterical?
And yes, it is safe to say that, at the very least, Aguirre and Alma knew. And after the conversation with Ennis, it is almost sure that Lureen knew. Even Anne Hathaway "admitted" as much with her reaction during the Oprah interview...
About Lureen - yes, I agree here! After her conversation with Ennis she was pretty positive, but she had no "picture" in her head. As others, she could only assume and suspect and even if she was 99% positive, still, everything was in her imagination... But surely she knew that Ennis meant a world to Jack...
At least I see it that way...
*o) : And that phone-call was a killer... for her and for Ennis. Someone wrote a fic story just about her pain corresponding with Ennis's - miles and miles far form her... written so well and so heartbreaking. Finally, Lureen sent Jack's hat to Ennis, to put it on Brokeback or to keep it, as he likes :\'(
-
I tend to think that Lureen knew, towards the latter part of her marriage to Jack. At the time when she mentions to Jack why he drives 14 hours a few times every year and why his friend couldn't just come to Texas, I think she didn't know at that point. But in the last few years of her marriage to Jack before he died, I'm sure she knew. I'm quite sure her father knew too, with the whole comment about being a man. That was Thanksgiving of 1977, so I think her father suspected it first, then told Lureen. I wonder how many people Alma told. I really think she told Monroe, and that Junior and Jenny overheard one of those conversations. Junior was very perceptive, so she knew from very early on since she was a child that Jack was very special to her father, but didn't know the kind of relationship they had until she was a teenager, around the time that Cassie showed up. I remember it was around this time that Ennis became extremely paranoid about people found out, because he had that conversation with Jack about if everything was "normal" in Texas, and about how he often had the feeling that people were looking him with weird glances everywhere he went. I wonder if it was just Ennis's paranoia, or if a bunch of people in Riverton really had heard something through the grapevine. With Riverton being a small town, it's easy for things like that to get around. So I wonder how many people knew or suspected. Remember Ennis was terrified to find out that Alma knew, and had known all those years, so it could have just been his paranoia and fear that he thought everyone around him seemed to suspect something. Jack's father I think had always known his son was gay, that's why he was so rude to Ennis. And of course Jack's mother knew too, those shirts hung in her closet for 20 years, so she knew not only was her son gay, but that Ennis was his true love.
Well, for me, Lureen knew only after the conversation with Ennis. She might have known before then that Jack was seeing other men -- if we think that he was indeed killed because of it. Her explanation about Jack being killed while changing a tire sounded as if she was repeating it by rote. But knowledge about Jack and Ennis in particular? I do tend to think that she realized this only during the conversation -- hence, the funny sounds she made during this scene.
As I mentioned in the above post, it is very instructive to see Hathaway almost admitting to this in the BBM episode of Oprah.
-
About Lureen - yes, I agree here! After her conversation with Ennis she was pretty positive, but she had no "picture" in her head. As others, she could only assume and suspect and even if she was 99% positive, still, everything was in her imagination... But surely she knew that Ennis meant a world to Jack...
At least I see it that way...
*o) : And that phone-call was a killer... for her and for Ennis. Someone wrote a fic story just about her pain corresponding with Ennis's - miles and miles far form her... written so well and so heartbreaking. Finally, Lureen sent Jack's hat to Ennis, to put it on Brokeback or to keep it, as he likes :\'(
I thought Hatahway did a beutiful job in that phone call scene -- one of the best in the entire movie. She should have been nominated for this one scene, IMO.
-
I thought Hatahway did a beutiful job in that phone call scene -- one of the best in the entire movie. She should have been nominated for this one scene, IMO.
That scene is one of the rare where she could show all her talent, and she did it just O0!
-
That scene is one of the rare where she could show all her talent, and she did it just O0!
OT: it is a pity that she didn't nominated for BBM -- another black mark for the Academy!
-
I'm inclined to think Jack's parents knew. In the short story, John Twist looks at Ennis with "an angry, knowing expression." Jack's mom seems intuitive enough to know how much her son meant to Ennis, and doesn't seem surprised when he takes the shirts as a memento. (And when your son tells you he is planning to move home with his male friend to build a cabin together, well...) and Lureen's father, given his contempt for Jack and the sneering, pointed comment about don't you want your son to be a man? probably had his suspicions for years.
-
I'm inclined to think Jack's parents knew. In the short sory, John Twist looks at Ennis with "an angry, knowing expression." Jack's mom seems intuitive enought oto know how much her son meant to Ennis, and doesn't seem surprised when he takes the shirts as a memento. Lureen's father, given his contempt for Jack and the sneering, pointed comment about don't you want your son to be a man? probably had his suspicions for years,
Hi Lila and #$# to the forum!
Yes, that could probably be the truth about Jack's parents and LD. Still, in my mind, except for Alma and Aguirre, all the rest were left to a simple imagination and suspicion!
And yes, Jack's Ma knew about the shirts. Not only that she wasn't surprised about it, but she deliberately sent Ennis up to find them! :\'(
-
OT: it is a pity that she didn't nominated for BBM -- another black mark for the Academy!
Thomas, I asked - how legal the Oscar is if the members can brag of not seeing the movie, but voting for another... ^*()
IMO it is illegal! But, who asks me!
*o) *o) *o) Sorry!
-
I tend to think that Lureen knew, towards the latter part of her marriage to Jack. At the time when she mentions to Jack why he drives 14 hours a few times every year and why his friend couldn't just come to Texas, I think she didn't know at that point. But in the last few years of her marriage to Jack before he died, I'm sure she knew. I'm quite sure her father knew too, with the whole comment about being a man. That was Thanksgiving of 1977, so I think her father suspected it first, then told Lureen. I wonder how many people Alma told. I really think she told Monroe, and that Junior and Jenny overheard one of those conversations. Junior was very perceptive, so she knew from very early on since she was a child that Jack was very special to her father, but didn't know the kind of relationship they had until she was a teenager, around the time that Cassie showed up. I remember it was around this time that Ennis became extremely paranoid about people found out, because he had that conversation with Jack about if everything was "normal" in Texas, and about how he often had the feeling that people were looking him with weird glances everywhere he went. I wonder if it was just Ennis's paranoia, or if a bunch of people in Riverton really had heard something through the grapevine. With Riverton being a small town, it's easy for things like that to get around. So I wonder how many people knew or suspected. Remember Ennis was terrified to find out that Alma knew, and had known all those years, so it could have just been his paranoia and fear that he thought everyone around him seemed to suspect something. Jack's father I think had always known his son was gay, that's why he was so rude to Ennis. And of course Jack's mother knew too, those shirts hung in her closet for 20 years, so she knew not only was her son gay, but that Ennis was his true love.
I completely agree with you,so much that I cannot add anything else to what you say so brightly,Yes,it was difficult to hide such a deep relationship during so many years in a so closed community.The simple fact that a still young man can remain without a woman's company,having moreover such a good friend-women pass away,but this same friend always remains by Ennis side...-is suspicious enough by itself for some persons who commands their life by clichés because someone has told them that "this is what one must do"...Of course,all the main characters knew it,and knew it well enough as io be the clue for our boys tragedy.
-
Ennis had expressed some paranoia in his one meeting with Jack. Is this all paranoia, or could have other people in Riverton begin to suspect something between Jack and Ennis? All speculative, but perhaps there is some substance to Ennis's unease. Jack must have felt the same way, if we read something more behind his advice that Ennis quit Riverton for Texas...
-
Ennis had expressed some paranoia in his one meeting with Jack. Is this all paranoia, or could have other people in Riverton begin to suspect something between Jack and Ennis? All speculative, but perhaps there is some substance to Ennis's unease. Jack must have felt the same way, if we read something more behind his advice that Ennis quit Riverton for Texas...
I see Ennis's words as a pure paranoia (as well as his behavior in divorce scene), and Jack's invitation as a pure wish to have Ennis by his side. Nothing more!
-
Ennis had expressed some paranoia in his one meeting with Jack. Is this all paranoia, or could have other people in Riverton begin to suspect something between Jack and Ennis? All speculative, but perhaps there is some substance to Ennis's unease. Jack must have felt the same way, if we read something more behind his advice that Ennis quit Riverton for Texas...
I think there's a mixture of feelings and reaction when the situation and persons are as complex as these ones.On one hand,Ennis had an undisputable paranoia based in his tragic childhood souvenirs,it's true; but not less true than the fact that he had in the end a basis-even if it was very little-because a closed rural communnity must have some suspicions about Jack and Ennis close relationship and the lack of a wife in the second's life.But on the other hand,these suspicions,even if being there,were magnifyed for the same Ennis paranoia,with what we obtain a perfect vicious cercle-do you say it this way?-.
As regards to Jack,I also tend to believe that his advice answers more to a wish to have Ennis near him than a real feeling of danger.But it's also true that he knew very well the situation that surrounded gay people there and then,and that Texas was maybe a more open-minded community in this sense.Who knows that maybe in his innest self,he had just a little of this feeling of danger and for this reason he wished more to have Ennis far from all this problem.It's also kind of vicious cercle,because if he had Ennis far from danger,he had him closer to him,and if he had Ennis far from him,he became also closer to the danger.I don't know if this makes sense...
-
Well, I do tend to think that perhaps other people in Riverton had begun to suspect something. It is hard to keep even the best kept secrets from prying eyes, especially in the context of the divorce -- taking into account my belief that Monroe probably knew about it.
As for Jack, I didn't mean to imply that Childress TX was a more open place than Riverton. But I think Jack recognized that Ennis probably needed to go to a place where nobody knew him, and start afresh. I do admit that in suggesting TX, Jack probably took into account the greater convenience of having Ennis nearer -- the better (perhaps) to draw him into considering a "sweet life".
-
I completely agree with you,so much that I cannot add anything else to what you say so brightly,Yes,it was difficult to hide such a deep relationship during so many years in a so closed community.The simple fact that a still young man can remain without a woman's company,having moreover such a good friend-women pass away,but this same friend always remains by Ennis side...-is suspicious enough by itself for some persons who commands their life by clichés because someone has told them that "this is what one must do"...Of course,all the main characters knew it,and knew it well enough as io be the clue for our boys tragedy.
People in Childress, Texas had suspected that Jack was gay, so I think Lureen may have suspected earlier than I previously thought. I'm sure she could put two and two together. If she suspected that Jack was going off with other men, then wouldn't that make his relationship with this "friend" Ennis very suspicious? Why did he devote so much time and energy to this man? And this man never disappeared out of Jack's life, he was always there, his name coming up over and over again as Jack made his trips every several months. So I think Lureen could probably figure out they were lovers. There is an irony about the whole thing. With all of Ennis's paranoia and fear that they would be found out, he didn't realize that so many people already knew. I think it adds to the sadness of the whole story.
-
People in Childress, Texas had suspected that Jack was gay, so I think Lureen may have suspected earlier than I previously thought. I'm sure she could put two and two together. If she suspected that Jack was going off with other men, then wouldn't that make his relationship with this "friend" Ennis very suspicious? Why did he devote so much time and energy to this man? And this man never disappeared out of Jack's life, he was always there, his name coming up over and over again as Jack made his trips every several months. So I think Lureen could probably figure out they were lovers. There is an irony about the whole thing. With all of Ennis's paranoia and fear that they would be found out, he didn't realize that so many people already knew. I think it adds to the sadness of the whole story.
I agree with you again.There's some irony in all the story,in spite of being so tragic,or maybe because of this...All Ennis paranoia turned to have some of truth in the end,because he had spent half his life protecting himself and protecting Jack to other person's homophobia and gossip.However,his fears became a reality,a dramatic reality,to avoid which he had denied him and Jack their own happiness during 20 years.And maybe the root of this tragedy comes to the knowledge of the real nature of their relationship on the part of very close persons,such as Lureen.At least,I have always suspected about her...
-
Well, I do tend to think that perhaps other people in Riverton had begun to suspect something. It is hard to keep even the best kept secrets from prying eyes, especially in the context of the divorce -- taking into account my belief that Monroe probably knew about it.
As for Jack, I didn't mean to imply that Childress TX was a more open place than Riverton. But I think Jack recognized that Ennis probably needed to go to a place where nobody knew him, and start afresh. I do admit that in suggesting TX, Jack probably took into account the greater convenience of having Ennis nearer -- the better (perhaps) to draw him into considering a "sweet life".
Well,when I said that maybe Jack knew that Texas people had a more open mind,I meant that it was a greater community where anonymity was guarantee.But also that,at least,it was a place where he could begin a new life without the gossips around him.And if,moreover,he could convince Ennis that it was good also for him and,with time's passing,having their sweet life,better enough¡.It's sure that,even if Jack was a more careless and free person,it was hard for him to live a "double life",hidding constantly his real way of being from people's insane curiosity.So,it could in this way get two things at the same time...
-
Well,when I said that maybe Jack knew that Texas people had a more open mind,I meant that it was a greater community where anonymity was guarantee.But also that,at least,it was a place where he could begin a new life without the gossips around him.And if,moreover,he could convince Ennis that it was good also for him and,with time's passing,having their sweet life,better enough¡.It's sure that,even if Jack was a more careless and free person,it was hard for him to live a "double life",hidding constantly his real way of being from people's insane curiosity.So,it could in this way get two things at the same time...
This brings me to the question of how many people in Texas knew about Ennis before Jack's death. Only Lureen, I suppose -- and she probably had no idea about the significance of their friendship...
-
This brings me to the question of how many people in Texas knew about Ennis before Jack's death. Only Lureen, I suppose -- and she probably had no idea about the significance of their friendship...
Well,greater places always give a greater anonymity too,and it's sure that whatever place in Texas allowed it better than Riverton.But I'm not so sure about if Loreen had or not any idea of the significance of their friendship;I have always been almost sure that she suspected something after so many years of living by his side.(Too many travels to be only and alone with Ennis,too much "saving" for himself without introducing to her in some friend's supper,f.e.,too much Ennis during too many years...).Maybe she is not so innocent in her husband death,even,and,anyhow,her conversation with Ennis was only a confirmation of what she believed.JMHO.
-
Well,greater places always give a greater anonymity too,and it's sure that whatever place in Texas allowed it better than Riverton.But I'm not so sure about if Loreen had or not any idea of the significance of their friendship;I have always been almost sure that she suspected something after so many years of living by his side.(Too many travels to be only and alone with Ennis,too much "saving" for himself without introducing to her in some friend's supper,f.e.,too much Ennis during too many years...).Maybe she is not so innocent in her husband death,even,and,anyhow,her conversation with Ennis was only a confirmation of what she believed.JMHO.
Well, I personally think that she only knew after Jack died. I somehow suspect that she never really cared too much about what he did while he was alive (except when it had to do with business), because she was too preoccupied with running the family business. I think that she didn't really know about his intimacy with Ennis up until Ennis called her...
-
Well, I personally think that she only knew after Jack died. I somehow suspect that she never really cared too much about what he did while he was alive (except when it had to do with business), because she was too preoccupied with running the family business. I think that she didn't really know about his intimacy with Ennis up until Ennis called her...
I do think she knew though. She'd probably heard from her father that Jack was gay, and from there she could put two and two together and figure out that this Ennis character that Jack was devoting so much time and energy to must have been more to that story than Jack was telling her.
-
Ennis had expressed some paranoia in his one meeting with Jack. Is this all paranoia, or could have other people in Riverton begin to suspect something between Jack and Ennis? All speculative, but perhaps there is some substance to Ennis's unease. Jack must have felt the same way, if we read something more behind his advice that Ennis quit Riverton for Texas...
There were probably rumours around Riverton dating back to the time Joe Aguirre first spied the two of them together. Chances are he mentioned what he saw to at least one other person, and in a small, closed community like Riverton, there would be nowhere to hide.
-
There were probably rumours around Riverton dating back to the time Joe Aguirre first spied the two of them together. Chances are he mentioned what he saw to at least one other person, and in a small, closed community like Riverton, there would be nowhere to hide.
This is very very possible! Yet, like many other things it stays undefined!
-
I do think she knew though. She'd probably heard from her father that Jack was gay, and from there she could put two and two together and figure out that this Ennis character that Jack was devoting so much time and energy to must have been more to that story than Jack was telling her.
Interesting. For me, Lureen probably knew only after Jack died -- and this assumes that he was indeed murdered, and not just accidentally killed...
As for Ennis, I reallt think that she knew only during the phone call. The strange sounds that she made during the conversation with Ennis (after she said that he and Jack herded sheep back in 63) showed that she understood at exactly that moment the deeper meaning behind Jack's and Ennis's friendship. To me, that was the moment when she put 2 and 2 together, and was struggling to remain calm over the phone. But the sounds she made gave away her inner state of mind...
-
There were probably rumours around Riverton dating back to the time Joe Aguirre first spied the two of them together. Chances are he mentioned what he saw to at least one other person, and in a small, closed community like Riverton, there would be nowhere to hide.
Although what you say is speculative, I do find it quite probable that Aguirre may have mentioned it to someone else. However, Aguirre lived in Signal, and not in Riverton. And so, any rumors in Riverton could have come from another source -- perhaps Alma or Monroe or someone else...
-
Interesting. For me, Lureen probably knew only after Jack died -- and this assumes that he was indeed murdered, and not just accidentally killed...
As for Ennis, I reallt think that she knew only during the phone call. The strange sounds that she made during the conversation with Ennis (after she said that he and Jack herded sheep back in 63) showed that she understood at exactly that moment the deeper meaning behind Jack's and Ennis's friendship. To me, that was the moment when she put 2 and 2 together, and was struggling to remain calm over the phone. But the sounds she made gave away her inner state of mind...
But wasn't she suspicious that for years, Jack drove 14 hours to Wyoming and 14 hours back to Texas, two or three times a year, just to see this Ennis guy that she kept hearing so much about? And didn't she wonder why during all those years Ennis never came to Texas? She even asked Jack about that, because I think she thought it kind of strange that Jack always came up with some excuse everytime she hinted at wanting to meet this Ennis character in person. Or did she think there was no Ennis, that it was just a name Jack had made up in attempt to cover up his going off to with other men? Because without a doubt Lureen knew Jack was gay, her father had resented him from the beginning, so surely he wouldn't have made a secret of that in front of Lureen. I'm sure early on her father warned her about his suspicions that she had married a guy who was "queer". But the question is, did she specifically know about Ennis and the answer to that could possibly be that she thought Ennis didn't exist, that it was just a false name Jack came up with. Because she says over the phone that she hadn't thought Brokeback Mountain was a real place, so maybe it was only after Jack died, and Ennis called her that she realized that Ennis was actually a real person, and Jack had devoted so much time and energy to him all those years because this man was her husband's true love.
-
But wasn't she suspicious that for years, Jack drove 14 hours to Wyoming and 14 hours back to Texas, two or three times a year, just to see this Ennis guy that she kept hearing so much about? And didn't she wonder why during all those years Ennis never came to Texas? She even asked Jack about that, because I think she thought it kind of strange that Jack always came up with some excuse everytime she hinted at wanting to meet this Ennis character in person. Or did she think there was no Ennis, that it was just a name Jack had made up in attempt to cover up his going off to with other men? Because without a doubt Lureen knew Jack was gay, her father had resented him from the beginning, so surely he wouldn't have made a secret of that in front of Lureen. I'm sure early on her father warned her about his suspicions that she had married a guy who was "queer". But the question is, did she specifically know about Ennis and the answer to that could possibly be that she thought Ennis didn't exist, that it was just a false name Jack came up with. Because she says over the phone that she hadn't thought Brokeback Mountain was a real place, so maybe it was only after Jack died, and Ennis called her that she realized that Ennis was actually a real person, and Jack had devoted so much time and energy to him all those years because this man was her husband's true love.
I actually think that Lureen was too busy with the business to really have cared that much. Even her complaints about Jack going away were associated with him not being there to deal with a new tractor, or not being there in the role of salesman. The remote and loveless goodbye kiss they gave each other at the end of the blue parka scene attests to this. I also think that Lureen ceased to love Jack before jack ceased to care about her, although this is debatable.
Perhaps the only glimmer of sympathy we see later in the marriage had to do with the scene with Bobby and Lureen's father. But even here, it was not love that was tantamount -- it was the satisfaction of seeing her bossy dad put in place. And this she appreciated as much as Jack, I think.
-
I actually think that Lureen was too busy with the business to really have cared that much. Even her complaints about Jack going away were associated with him not being there to deal with a new tractor, or not being there in the role of salesman. The remote and loveless goodbye kiss they gave each other at the end of the blue parka scene attests to this. I also think that Lureen ceased to love Jack before jack ceased to care about her, although this is debatable.
Perhaps the only glimmer of sympathy we see later in the marriage had to do with the scene with Bobby and Lureen's father. But even here, it was not love that was tantamount -- it was the satisfaction of seeing her bossy dad put in place. And this she appreciated as much as Jack, I think.
Hmm, it could be that she just never even cared about what Jack was doing because all she thought of was the business. When she talks Jack before he's about to go on his trip, it does seem like she doesn't really care about the details of the trip or details about this Ennis. Maybe she was so caught up in the business that she never even saw what was right in front of her. I do believe that she at some point though she found out Jack was gay, and that the story she tells to Ennis over the phone is fabricated. She knew how that Jack had been murdered in a hate crime, but just recited the made-up story to Ennis just like she had done about a dozen times to other people. But when Ennis tells her about Brokeback Mountain, she came to the realization of who this man was and why Jack had really gone on those trips all those years.
-
I agree that Aquirre & Jack's ma knew early on. I think as Alma, Jr. got older that she knew. We know when Alma found out, although she didn't know what it all meant. She was angry confused, & devestated. I don't think Loreen knew for sure until the phone call from Ennis, but I sometimes wonder about the question..."wonder why husbands never want to dance w/ their wives, Jack"?
-
Hmm, it could be that she just never even cared about what Jack was doing because all she thought of was the business. When she talks Jack before he's about to go on his trip, it does seem like she doesn't really care about the details of the trip or details about this Ennis. Maybe she was so caught up in the business that she never even saw what was right in front of her. I do believe that she at some point though she found out Jack was gay, and that the story she tells to Ennis over the phone is fabricated. She knew how that Jack had been murdered in a hate crime, but just recited the made-up story to Ennis just like she had done about a dozen times to other people. But when Ennis tells her about Brokeback Mountain, she came to the realization of who this man was and why Jack had really gone on those trips all those years.
Of course, there is enough ambiguity in the story and the movie that one cannot state definitively what is true and what is not. :) And of course, even Jack's "murder" is uncertain -- whether he was truly murdured, or was he killed by an accident.
Whatever the case, it is interesting to see how each of us views/interprets certain details and events a bit differently. :)
-
I agree that Aquirre & Jack's ma knew early on. I think as Alma, Jr. got older that she knew. We know when Alma found out, although she didn't know what it all meant. She was angry confused, & devestated. I don't think Loreen knew for sure until the phone call from Ennis, but I sometimes wonder about the question..."wonder why husbands never want to dance w/ their wives, Jack"?
This is pretty much how I see it also. :)