Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: vedrana on Nov 01, 2009, 04:45 AM
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I tried to find this topic all around the forum, but couldn't. So, mods, please merge the topic if there's already the same/similar one around. Also, please correct the title of the topic, if I wrote it incorrectly.
During motel scene, after Ennis and Jack did what they did, and talked some about their lives in the past four years, very sad and wistful, Jack whispered: "Ol' Brokeback got us good." Jack, in a way admitted the power that Brokeback had over them.
Now, if Ennis and Jack had met somewhere else, far from the open space and beauty of the mountain, far away from the freedom and isolation from the unfriendly society, than - would it be so powerful? Would it last for 20 years? Would the love bloom so strong? Would it be even possible to get together at the first place, make love at all??
After the motel scene, they headed to the mountain again. And every time they met, it was in the mountains. They never consider going to a motel or anywhere else - it was always mountain. God knows that they didn't avoid motels for the sake of fishing. It was all about two of them together, making love, talking, drinking... But it always had to be in the mountains. It always had to be like it was on Brokeback.
I believe that Brokeback was so important in their hooking up and everything that followed, so much so that maybe none of it would've happened hadn't they been there. Brokeback mountain in it's beauty and glory surpassed everything they had faced in their usual lives and lead them into the freedom. It was a whole new world up there and the things which would usually seemed wrong, seemed almost alright.
When Ennis found the shirts years after, he was trying to revoke Jack's scent, the same as it was on Brokeback, the place where they were young and free. I am not saying that there were no love. I am saying that love was due to their youth, sad life circumstances behind them and above all - the opportunity given in the wonder of Brokeback mountain.
Their love was in more than one way, inseparable from Brokeback. Now, I can go a step further and ask - wasn't it always like a threesome, the mountain being the third one?
:f) :s: :c)
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:h) all
Loreen, Brokeback Mountain definitely played a part in their meeting and their relationship. Jack was totally in love in Ennis, especially after their meeting 4 years after Brokeback. If you look at his reaction at their re-meet when Ennis pushed him against the wall and kissed him, it all came back.
On seeing Jack, Ennis just could help himself, and that is also when he realised that Jack is much more to him that he even realised.
Because of Ennis' background, even after he was divorced from Alma, he still did not want to pursue a permanent relationship with Jack. Jack is so in love with Ennis, he just took every opportunity he can to be with Ennis, no matter how meager. Even if it meant every couple of months at Brokeback. I think Jack would have settled for anywhere meeting Ennis. But Ennis don't travel, as he said "the only travelling I did is around the coffee pot looking for the handle".
The penny dropped after his last meeting with Ennis, when Jack told his dad his bringing some other man with him to "whip the ranch in shape", meaning Jack realised Ennis will never share his life permanently.
I don't think Brokeback was a third party in their relationship, although it did play a huge part in their relationship. If there was a third party, is must be Ennis' background, preventing them from pursuing their relationship to what it could have been.
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Of course BBM played a part, a big one
since they kept meeting on the mountains, all the 20 years of their relationship.
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:h) all
Loreen, Brokeback Mountain definitely played a part in their meeting and their relationship. Jack was totally in love in Ennis, especially after their meeting 4 years after Brokeback. If you look at his reaction at their re-meet when Ennis pushed him against the wall and kissed him, it all came back.
On seeing Jack, Ennis just could help himself, and that is also when he realised that Jack is much more to him that he even realised.
Because of Ennis' background, even after he was divorced from Alma, he still did not want to pursue a permanent relationship with Jack. Jack is so in love with Ennis, he just took every opportunity he can to be with Ennis, no matter how meager. Even if it meant every couple of months at Brokeback. I think Jack would have settled for anywhere meeting Ennis. But Ennis don't travel, as he said "the only travelling I did is around the coffee pot looking for the handle".
The penny dropped after his last meeting with Ennis, when Jack told his dad his bringing some other man with him to "whip the ranch in shape", meaning Jack realised Ennis will never share his life permanently.
I don't think Brokeback was a third party in their relationship, although it did play a huge part in their relationship. If there was a third party, is must be Ennis' background, preventing them from pursuing their relationship to what it could have been.
Hey Fullmoon :h}
Welcome to the forum and thanks for answering! ^f^
Interesting point of view - you think that much more important was Ennis's fear... :s)... I don't know... Yes, it has always been an obstacle and we can surely say that it was between them all the time, but it wasn't with them like BBM. Maybe it is the different angle, we're watching at their relationship.
As for Jack's lost hopes about the sweet life with Ennis - I always believed that Jack never got over Ennis and that he mentioned that other man to his father coz he felt like loosing face after so many years that Ennis didn't show up in LF. Some members believe that jack was really moving on, but I am not so sure...
Hope to see more of you around! :)
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Of course BBM played a part, a big one
since they kept meeting on the mountains, all the 20 years of their relationship.
I believe that it was a crucial point for their relationship. E.g., if they met anywhere else, it is quite realistic to expect that nothing would've happen between them. But there on BBM, the developed a special friendship that grew into love so strong, that even years of "separated and difficult lives" didn't diminish their passion and feelings to each other. BBM was almost a third, equally important partner. IMHO
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I believe that BBM was central to the relationship. Even if they didn't go back, the experience they shared became the ideal that they tried to recapture all their lives. The parallel is with the Garden of Eden and the expulsion. I beleiev someone had mentioned something like this in an old post somewhere...
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IMO,Brokeback was a very important moment in their lives,important enough as to change them forever.But I think that any other place or circumstance that had allowed some degree of intimacy or,at least,allowed them to work together shoulder to shoulder,had developed an intense relationship between them.Because they were two uprooted country boys who needed above all some love and tenderness,someone who makes them feel all the important human beings that nobody had made them feel before,neither their own parents.Remember how powerful and strong Ennis felt in s.s. when they went up to the sheep after having shared some conversation moments with Jack;it was just because at the end he had found someone who cared for him,who believed that his opinions and wishes were important by themselves...In this sense,then,I think that any other place could have became their "happy Arcadia" and their shelter before society,no matter if it had been a house,a saloon or a city's street.
However,it's true that the mountain beauty and greatness added a factor of freedom to their relationship; they were alone,in the middle of nowhere,taking care and being cared of and from each other,and,more than in any other place,they could be themselves,as they were and felt. Loneliness in all senses,both physical and psychical,created some bonds that it was easy that could grow up until being eternal.But I guess that when Jack says "Ol' Brokeback got us good" means that this place or wherever they had met,changed their lives forever because,simply,was the first place they really know each other in all senses.That these times of shared loneliness had made them fall in love with each other as they wouldn't had though before.That he realised Ennis loved him when they were talking about how much they had missed one another during these four !@#$ years and he wasn't able to tell anything,but everything his reaction speaks volumes-his eyes are full with tears when he just remembers how his life has been without Jack,what is very significant...-.I think,in sum,that when a love is so great as theirs,any place can be your own Brokeback... <^(
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I believe that BBM was central to the relationship. Even if they didn't go back, the experience they shared became the ideal that they tried to recapture all their lives. The parallel is with the Garden of Eden and the expulsion. I beleiev someone had mentioned something like this in an old post somewhere...
I surely agree. Every moment after 1963. was an attempt to reach the beauty of their happy days on Brokeback. I don't think that they ever succeeded though.
And the metaphor of never returning there is also powerful. As they never reached the same unrestrained love they'd had there, they had also never returned to the same place. As it was a symbol of it.
My question was more about BBM in the beginning of their love. Would one Jack Twist and one Ennis DelMar ever become lovers hadn't it been for a freedom they had on BBM?
Jack's words in motel room were so decided, almost fatal... oh, now I just remember. Maybe Jack's words were a simple love statement? Not being able to say: "Damn, how we fell (in love) for each other then and there!" he just said "Ol' Brokeback got us good!"
:s)
Now I'm even more puzzled! ^*()
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IMO,Brokeback was a very important moment in their lives,important enough as to change them forever.But I think that any other place or circumstance that had allowed some degree of intimacy or,at least,allowed them to work together shoulder to shoulder,had developed an intense relationship between them.Because they were two uprooted country boys who needed above all some love and tenderness,someone who makes them feel all the important human beings that nobody had made them feel before,neither their own parents.Remember how powerful and strong Ennis felt in s.s. when they went up to the sheep after having shared some conversation moments with Jack;it was just because at the end he had found someone who cared for him,who believed that his opinions and wishes were important by themselves...In this sense,then,I think that any other place could have became their "happy Arcadia" and their shelter before society,no matter if it had been a house,a saloon or a city's street.
However,it's true that the mountain beauty and greatness added a factor of freedom to their relationship; they were alone,in the middle of nowhere,taking care and being cared of and from each other,and,more than in any other place,they could be themselves,as they were and felt. Loneliness in all senses,both physical and psychical,created some bonds that it was easy that could grow up until being eternal.But I guess that when Jack says "Ol' Brokeback got us good" means that this place or wherever they had met,changed their lives forever because,simply,was the first place they really know each other in all senses.That these times of shared loneliness had made them fall in love with each other as they wouldn't had though before.That he realised Ennis loved him when they were talking about how much they had missed one another during these four !@#$ years and he wasn't able to tell anything,but everything his reaction speaks volumes-his eyes are full with tears when he just remembers how his life has been without Jack,what is very significant...-.I think,in sum,that when a love is so great as theirs,any place can be your own Brokeback... <^(
Yeah, just now, I also said something similar about Jack's statement. ;)
You maybe right here. Maybe some other place would be as good as Brokeback... but not any other place. And not any other circumstances. The fact that they were depending only on each other, that they talked only to each other and that no one was a witness to their relationship, starting for friendship to love, was crucial.
Yes, it could've been any mountain, but I don't believe that in the city or any people crowded place would they had loosened their strains and let it happen.
I agree with bold part - they surely need love, and not only physical. They needed a true, warm companionship and they got it in the most wonderful way. }s{
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With Jack's utterance "Ol' Brokeback got us good" he meant that at Brokeback their lives changed forever, without them ever having control of it thereafter.
The fact that they meet at Brokeback is just part of being able to be alone together without Ennis worrying about others. Remember they went to Ross(?) cabin one year.
How important is Brokeback Mountain? Jack even wanted his ashes scattered there and Ennis was willing to take it. They both see Brokeback as a symbol of their love and "the good life together"
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I think about the phrase "got us good." It suggests not being just a captive, but also suggests being enthralled as willing captives. The sense of "capture" is very strong in that phrase. To me, it suggests a sense of not being free, but not minding it -- that the will gives in to the sense of capture. A "captive heart" comes closest to describe this.
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Loreen, interesting questions and observation. I think you have answered your own question with the one below.
I believe that Brokeback was so important in their hooking up and everything that followed, so much so that maybe none of it would've happened hadn't they been there. Brokeback mountain in it's beauty and glory surpassed everything they had faced in their usual lives and lead them into the freedom. It was a whole new world up there and the things which would usually seemed wrong, seemed almost alright.
I think about the phrase "got us good." It suggests not being just a captive, but also suggests being enthralled as willing captives. The sense of "capture" is very strong in that phrase. To me, it suggests a sense of not being free, but not minding it -- that the will gives in to the sense of capture. A "captive heart" comes closest to describe this.
I completely agree. "A captive heart" is a perfect description. Notice the sentence followed "got us good" is "what are we gonna do now?" I think "Got us good" is Jack admitting his vulnerability to Ennis. Of course it was only shut down by Ennis to say "there is not much we can do....."
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I surely agree. Every moment after 1963. was an attempt to reach the beauty of their happy days on Brokeback. I don't think that they ever succeeded though.
And the metaphor of never returning there is also powerful. As they never reached the same unrestrained love they'd had there, they had also never returned to the same place. As it was a symbol of it.
My question was more about BBM in the beginning of their love. Would one Jack Twist and one Ennis DelMar ever become lovers hadn't it been for a freedom they had on BBM?
Jack's words in motel room were so decided, almost fatal... oh, now I just remember. Maybe Jack's words were a simple love statement? Not being able to say: "Damn, how we fell (in love) for each other then and there!" he just said "Ol' Brokeback got us good!"
:s)
Now I'm even more puzzled! ^*()
Yes,the fact that they never returned to the place where they found love for the first time is indeed a powerful metaphor ; they were going to be together many other times,but never with the same freedom than in BBM.Any other mountain could have taken the place of Brokeback to live their love,but the same than they must leave every time to live their "normal" and ordinary lives,one without the other,this other place would have been-as a matter of fact,.it was-a half-shelter for them.
As regards to Jack's words,of course,they were a love statement;they were like realising how deeply they fell for each other and how the magic of that mountain bounded them forever.Of course,always in E&J style,not saying the word "love" with all its letters,but using some metaphors that,in this case,make useless to say things more clearly.
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Yeah, just now, I also said something similar about Jack's statement. ;)
You maybe right here. Maybe some other place would be as good as Brokeback... but not any other place. And not any other circumstances. The fact that they were depending only on each other, that they talked only to each other and that no one was a witness to their relationship, starting for friendship to love, was crucial.
Yes, it could've been any mountain, but I don't believe that in the city or any people crowded place would they had loosened their strains and let it happen.
I agree with bold part - they surely need love, and not only physical. They needed a true, warm companionship and they got it in the most wonderful way. }s{
Well,I was referring to the fact of having discovered love,the love of their lives,that in this case happenned in Brokaback,but it could have been in any other place and time;I was referring that when you are in love any place could be an splendid garden of Eden for you,and much more if you're able to discover and live this love as your first and your last...Of course,I have also said that having lived all this in a place like Brokeback Mountain added a plus of freedom and beauty to their relationship,in a,let's say,poetic sense but also in a more material one; they must share confidences but also work,they must be responsible of their duties,but also of each other,they were able to know each other at the fully in any sense...I don't know if now this makes sense or not... :-\\
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With Jack's utterance "Ol' Brokeback got us good" he meant that at Brokeback their lives changed forever, without them ever having control of it thereafter.
The fact that they meet at Brokeback is just part of being able to be alone together without Ennis worrying about others. Remember they went to Ross(?) cabin one year.
How important is Brokeback Mountain? Jack even wanted his ashes scattered there and Ennis was willing to take it. They both see Brokeback as a symbol of their love and "the good life together"
Yes,BBM was a symbol of their love and,even if Ennis didn't want to reconised it sometimes,their freedom and their possibilities of make this "sweet life" a real life.It was forever a magic memory,sometimes magnified in moments of being apart,because it was where and when they were just like they wanted to be.
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I think about the phrase "got us good." It suggests not being just a captive, but also suggests being enthralled as willing captives. The sense of "capture" is very strong in that phrase. To me, it suggests a sense of not being free, but not minding it -- that the will gives in to the sense of capture. A "captive heart" comes closest to describe this.
I completely agree. "A captive heart" is a perfect description. Notice the sentence followed "got us good" is "what are we gonna do now?" I think "Got us good" is Jack admitting his vulnerability to Ennis. Of course it was only shut down by Ennis to say "there is not much we can do....."
I completely agree too..."A captive heart" is not only a precious expression,but the reality of how they felt and how they wanted to feel forever; they were free then and there to live as they wished,but they're not completely free in a "moral" sense because they belonged to each other.And they were pleased to be captured in this way... <^(
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Thanks Ethan and MPJ!
I must admit that Ethan's comment about "what are we gonna do now?" is spot on! It certainly suggests (if not CONFESSES) vulnerability and perhaps even not being in one's element or comfort zone. As with "captive heart", it suggests a blind leap of faith.
And Ennis's answer does feel like a "fall back to earth". It pulls us back to the real-life (and also contradictory) obstacles that underline their captivity. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.
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With Jack's utterance "Ol' Brokeback got us good" he meant that at Brokeback their lives changed forever, without them ever having control of it thereafter.
The fact that they meet at Brokeback is just part of being able to be alone together without Ennis worrying about others. Remember they went to Ross(?) cabin one year.
How important is Brokeback Mountain? Jack even wanted his ashes scattered there and Ennis was willing to take it. They both see Brokeback as a symbol of their love and "the good life together"
Yeah, they lost control. Ennis never completely (except during the reunion kiss), but they were never master of their own lives afterward.
It is interesting how BBM was so engraved in them, so much so that Jack wanted to be there in eternity... But why they never returned there???
I believe that under the difficult circumstances that both were living, they were probably deliberately avoiding to go back to BBM. The beautiful memory, the perfection of their few months spent there should never been spoiled by their present lives - troubled and separated. Maybe they didn't want to stain the memory, to make any scratch on the perfection. So they always choose other places... :(
As I recall it was Don Wroe's cabin (please correct me!)
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Well,I was referring to the fact of having discovered love,the love of their lives,that in this case happenned in Brokaback,but it could have been in any other place and time;I was referring that when you are in love any place could be an splendid garden of Eden for you,and much more if you're able to discover and live this love as your first and your last...Of course,I have also said that having lived all this in a place like Brokeback Mountain added a plus of freedom and beauty to their relationship,in a,let's say,poetic sense but also in a more material one; they must share confidences but also work,they must be responsible of their duties,but also of each other,they were able to know each other at the fully in any sense...I don't know if now this makes sense or not... :-\\
Everything makes sense here. ^-^
There were certainly special circumstances, special environment and surroundings which made the whole blossoming of their love more beautiful and special... and kept them slaves to their love forever.
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Loreen, interesting questions and observation. I think you have answered your own question with the one below.
I completely agree. "A captive heart" is a perfect description. Notice the sentence followed "got us good" is "what are we gonna do now?" I think "Got us good" is Jack admitting his vulnerability to Ennis. Of course it was only shut down by Ennis to say "there is not much we can do....."
Thanks Ethan! ^f^
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Thanks Ethan and MPJ!
I must admit that Ethan's comment about "what are we gonna do now?" is spot on! It certainly suggests (if not CONFESSES) vulnerability and perhaps even not being in one's element or comfort zone. As with "captive heart", it suggests a blind leap of faith.
And Ennis's answer does feel like a "fall back to earth". It pulls us back to the real-life (and also contradictory) obstacles that underline their captivity. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.
I must say that Ennis's reaction is pretty surprising. After being crazy the whole day, waiting for his little darling, after losing the touch with reality and slamming jack against the wall to kiss the life put of him, after renting the room in the motel and doing what he'd been dreaming for the last 4 years, he simply concluded that "There's nothing we can do." Rather shocking! and the real cold shower fro Jack whose dreamy eyes were still on Brokeback of their love.
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I tried to find this topic all around the forum, but couldn't. So, mods, please merge the topic if there's already the same/similar one around. Also, please correct the title of the topic, if I wrote it incorrectly.
During motel scene, after Ennis and Jack did what they did, and talked some about their lives in the past four years, very sad and wistful, Jack whispered: "Ol' Brokeback got us good." Jack, in a way admitted the power that Brokeback had over them.
Now, if Ennis and Jack had met somewhere else, far from the open space and beauty of the mountain, far away from the freedom and isolation from the unfriendly society, than - would it be so powerful? Would it last for 20 years? Would the love bloom so strong? Would it be even possible to get together at the first place, make love at all??
After the motel scene, they headed to the mountain again. And every time they met, it was in the mountains. They never consider going to a motel or anywhere else - it was always mountain. God knows that they didn't avoid motels for the sake of fishing. It was all about two of them together, making love, talking, drinking... But it always had to be in the mountains. It always had to be like it was on Brokeback.
I believe that Brokeback was so important in their hooking up and everything that followed, so much so that maybe none of it would've happened hadn't they been there. Brokeback mountain in it's beauty and glory surpassed everything they had faced in their usual lives and lead them into the freedom. It was a whole new world up there and the things which would usually seemed wrong, seemed almost alright.
When Ennis found the shirts years after, he was trying to revoke Jack's scent, the same as it was on Brokeback, the place where they were young and free. I am not saying that there were no love. I am saying that love was due to their youth, sad life circumstances behind them and above all - the opportunity given in the wonder of Brokeback mountain.
Their love was in more than one way, inseparable from Brokeback. Now, I can go a step further and ask - wasn't it always like a threesome, the mountain being the third one?
:f) :s: :c)
Great Topic!
I think Jack was saying that it was something about their experiences on Brokeback that summer that bonded them for life. A beginning to the rest of their lives. .They loved the place they went to up there mentally, emotionally and pysically. It became a secret place for them, the remote isolated setting was the right place, at the right time for two men who found they were right for each other after a chance meeting.
Even after four years of separation, a postcard from Jack preceded his arrival, and what was on the picture ? A mountain, not Brokeback but a picture of a mountain none the less. A reminder I feel from Jack saying that no matter what place they were at in their lives now, ( they were both stuck with what they got) it will never compare to how they felt on Brokeback that summer in '63' when life and love were lived in it's purest, free form.
I think Jack thought about Ennis often during those four years and never doubted he would see him again. It was only a matter of time before Jack made a concious choice to rekindle the relationship and sought out the one he loved since 1963. Although they never actually redid Brokeback Mt. any place resemling the setting was close enough. Brokeback was Jack's fav place for obvious reasons, wanted his ashes spread there and Ennis knew better than anyone why.. Ol' Brokeback got us good"? yes indeed, It was a comforting statement for both of them.. . .MO.
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Yeah, they lost control. Ennis never completely (except during the reunion kiss), but they were never master of their own lives afterward.
It is interesting how BBM was so engraved in them, so much so that Jack wanted to be there in eternity... But why they never returned there???
I believe that under the difficult circumstances that both were living, they were probably deliberately avoiding to go back to BBM. The beautiful memory, the perfection of their few months spent there should never been spoiled by their present lives - troubled and separated. Maybe they didn't want to stain the memory, to make any scratch on the perfection. So they always choose other places... :(
As I recall it was Don Wroe's cabin (please correct me!)
Maybe it was only a simple fact of being too far away from the "real" BBM.But it could have been,as you say very well,something deliberately avoided in order not to save untouched the memories of these good times.As a matter of fact,there's a Spanish phrase that says:-"If you have been happy in a place,you should never come back"...
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I must say that Ennis's reaction is pretty surprising. After being crazy the whole day, waiting for his little darling, after losing the touch with reality and slamming jack against the wall to kiss the life put of him, after renting the room in the motel and doing what he'd been dreaming for the last 4 years, he simply concluded that "There's nothing we can do." Rather shocking! and the real cold shower fro Jack whose dreamy eyes were still on Brokeback of their love.
For me it's not surprising,and still more knowing Ennis...However,in any other person's case,I'd say that one can perfectly loose the sense of reality in the arms of one's love who has been hidden for four years and recovered almost suddenly.Even much before being by this love side,a person,Ennis in this case,can perfectly be thinking in how this reencounter will be,in what they will do,where they will go,etc.It's to say,this person can be building all his life around one's love,both with a cold head and/or with the hottest head-and everything... >:D -.
But for me this doesn't mean that,already with the foot put on the ground and even if the same passion drives one's acts,Ennis couldn't think their situation over and get to the conclusion that this was all they can do in their relationship;meet each other "in the middle of nowhere" to make love passionately and,meanwhile,passing all the time thinking in each other.Period.Believing that there was something else they could do in a deeper and more definitive way was an utopia for Ennis; and this in spite of his craziness for meeting her true love...
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I completely agree too..."A captive heart" is not only a precious expression,but the reality of how they felt and how they wanted to feel forever; they were free then and there to live as they wished,but they're not completely free in a "moral" sense because they belonged to each other.And they were pleased to be captured in this way... <^(
Thanks loreen. I think the pharse captures the rapture as well as the pain of their love. Sometimes, they become one and the same...
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Great Topic!
I think Jack was saying that it was something about their experiences on Brokeback that summer that bonded them for life. A beginning to the rest of their lives. .They loved the place they went to up there mentally, emotionally and pysically. It became a secret place for them, the remote isolated setting was the right place, at the right time for two men who found they were right for each other after a chance meeting.
Even after four years of separation, a postcard from Jack preceded his arrival, and what was on the picture ? A mountain, not Brokeback but a picture of a mountain none the less. A reminder I feel from Jack saying that no matter what place they were at in their lives now, ( they were both stuck with what they got) it will never compare to how they felt on Brokeback that summer in '63' when life and love were lived in it's purest, free form.
I think Jack thought about Ennis often during those four years and never doubted he would see him again. It was only a matter of time before Jack made a concious choice to rekindle the relationship and sought out the one he loved since 1963. Although they never actually redid Brokeback Mt. any place resemling the setting was close enough. Brokeback was Jack's fav place for obvious reasons, wanted his ashes spread there and Ennis knew better than anyone why.. Ol' Brokeback got us good"? yes indeed, It was a comforting statement for both of them.. . .MO.
Thanks AF! :)
Liked the bold part.
I personally don't see the statement so comforting... maybe because it was one of the most hurting places at the beginning of my PBS... I feel that statement as something so fatal, so dark... As if something had happened which destroyed them, although it was supposed to be the most beautiful thing ever - the LOVE! Oh, so sad!!!! :(
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For me it's not surprising,and still more knowing Ennis...However,in any other person's case,I'd say that one can perfectly loose the sense of reality in the arms of one's love who has been hidden for four years and recovered almost suddenly.Even much before being by this love side,a person,Ennis in this case,can perfectly be thinking in how this reencounter will be,in what they will do,where they will go,etc.It's to say,this person can be building all his life around one's love,both with a cold head and/or with the hottest head-and everything... >:D -.
But for me this doesn't mean that,already with the foot put on the ground and even if the same passion drives one's acts,Ennis couldn't think their situation over and get to the conclusion that this was all they can do in their relationship;meet each other "in the middle of nowhere" to make love passionately and,meanwhile,passing all the time thinking in each other.Period.Believing that there was something else they could do in a deeper and more definitive way was an utopia for Ennis; and this in spite of his craziness for meeting her true love...
As much as I like Ennis more and more, I'll never be able to understand him completely, although your words make sense... :-\\
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Maybe it was only a simple fact of being too far away from the "real" BBM.But it could have been,as you say very well,something deliberately avoided in order not to save untouched the memories of these good times.As a matter of fact,there's a Spanish phrase that says:-"If you have been happy in a place,you should never come back"...
Oh, my! How sad that is... and how applicable to BBM... :_(
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I personally don't see the statement so comforting... maybe because it was one of the most hurting places at the beginning of my PBS... I feel that statement as something so fatal, so dark... As if something had happened which destroyed them, although it was supposed to be the most beautiful thing ever - the LOVE! Oh, so sad!!!! :(
Not sure if comforting is the right word, but I somehow get the sense of it. I somehow feel that the statement was said in a very intimate and almost tender fashion. To go back to the same image: as if they were willing captives...
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Thanks AF! :)
Liked the bold part.
I personally don't see the statement so comforting... maybe because it was one of the most hurting places at the beginning of my PBS... I feel that statement as something so fatal, so dark... As if something had happened which destroyed them, although it was supposed to be the most beautiful thing ever - the LOVE! Oh, so sad!!!! :(
Well,I understand what you mean,and,the same than Thomas,I don't know if "comforting" is the right word here...On one hand,it's comforting because it was what remained of these happy times; a love that made them feel well,by loving and being love.But on the other hand,the place and the feeling that was born there,is like a double edged sword.-if the meaning hasn't been lost in translation...-because it forced to be prisoners in a golden cage,that never was going to break so that they could live this love freely.This kind of willing captives,in sum.Yes,it's so sad... :_(
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Thanks AF! :)
Liked the bold part.
I personally don't see the statement so comforting... maybe because it was one of the most hurting places at the beginning of my PBS... I feel that statement as something so fatal, so dark... As if something had happened which destroyed them, although it was supposed to be the most beautiful thing ever - the LOVE! Oh, so sad!!!! :(
Perhaps it could be comforting in the fact that they had Brokeback experiences to look back upon, and maybe represented a hope that Jack had, a hope that was reaffirmed after four long years that Ennis still loved and desired him despite marriage. Affirmation for Jack that what Ennis felt for him was as strong as ever and never wavered.. The reception he got from Ennis once he saw him again told him that Ennis's heart was still his. ( So much heart and soul in that kiss).
Brokeback grabbed ahold of both of them and never let go. It maybe so that Ennis and his inner conflicts was'nt going to make it easy for Jack, but I like to beleive that they treasured every moment they had together. I think the sad part was that Jack finally began to realize that even though he knew Brokeback changed Ennis, he could not get Ennis to embrace the same freedom being on isolated Brokeback allowed him. MO.
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Well,I understand what you mean,and,the same than Thomas,I don't know if "comforting" is the right word here...On one hand,it's comforting because it was what remained of these happy times; a love that made them feel well,by loving and being love.But on the other hand,the place and the feeling that was born there,is like a double edged sword.-if the meaning hasn't been lost in translation...-because it forced to be prisoners in a golden cage,that never was going to break so that they could live this love freely.This kind of willing captives,in sum.Yes,it's so sad... :_(
It is a double-edged sword, isn't it? It cuts you even as you try to get a grip on it from either side... The metaphore is quite apt!
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It is a double-edged sword, isn't it? It cuts you even as you try to get a grip on it from either side... The metaphore is quite apt!
:t) Thomas ˇ You have said it admirably; It cuts you even as you try to get a grip on it from either side... It's like the "With Or without you",the illness and the healing,the problem and the solution...Something that you long for when you are away and that disturbs you when it's by your side.There's an Spanish song that says:-With or without you my problems a solution;with you because you're killing me and without you because I'm dying..."This was surely what Old Brokeback Mountain was for both Ennis and Jack; something that keeps on it their best memories of their best moments together,but also their worst nightmares.For example,the one of not being able to live again these moments,more than in a little dosis during 20 years.
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:t) Thomas ˇ You have said it admirably; It cuts you even as you try to get a grip on it from either side... It's like the "With Or without you",the illness and the healing,the problem and the solution...Something that you long for when you are away and that disturbs you when it's by your side.There's an Spanish song that says:-With or without you my problems a solution;with you because you're killing me and without you because I'm dying..."This was surely what Old Brokeback Mountain was for both Ennis and Jack; something that keeps on it their best memories of their best moments together,but also their worst nightmares.For example,the one of not being able to live again these moments,more than in a little dosis during 20 years.
What's the title of the song (in Spanish)?
Yes, Brokeback was certainly had this quality of being both a blessing and a curse. "Old Brokeback got us good..." seems to revel and bemoan all in the same breath the power and the influence of the Mountain in their lives. For better or for worse, they are defined as well as constrained by the experience of 63.
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What's the title of the song (in Spanish)?
Yes, Brokeback was certainly had this quality of being both a blessing and a curse. "Old Brokeback got us good..." seems to revel and bemoan all in the same breath the power and the influence of the Mountain in their lives. For better or for worse, they are defined as well as constrained by the experience of 63.
*o) It's an old "copla" by Rafael de Leon,based on an anonymous author,surely a popular one that people have conserved in an oral way.It has been sang by Manzanita,among others,but this version based on it is by Emilio José,and its title is "Ni contigo ni sin ti".
Ni contigo ni sin ti
Tienen mis males remedio
Contigo porque me matas
Sin ti porque yo me muero
Ni contigo ni sin ti.
Porque mi letra no ves
Piensas que de ti me olvido
Y en el fondo de mi pecho
Y a cada instante te escribo
Quisiera verte y no verte
Quisiera hablarte y no hablarte
Quisiera no conocerte
Para poder olvidarte.
Ay, ni contigo ni sin ti...
With or without you
my problems have a solution
with you because you're killing me
without you because I'm dying...
With or without you.
Because you can't see my letters
you think that I have forgotten you,
but inside my chest
at every moment I write to you.
I'd want to see you and not to see you,
I'd want to talk to you and not to talk to you,
I'd like not to have met you
So that I could forget you.
With or without you..
Can't this be said of Ennis and Jack?... <^(
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What's the title of the song (in Spanish)?
Yes, Brokeback was certainly had this quality of being both a blessing and a curse. "Old Brokeback got us good..." seems to revel and bemoan all in the same breath the power and the influence of the Mountain in their lives. For better or for worse, they are defined as well as constrained by the experience of 63.
Coming back to the thread's subject ( ~) mods...):Yes,totally...It's something that changed their lives,both in a positive and in a negative way; positively because they knew the real love,an experience that always is worth living.But negatively because this same blessing,as you say,gave them the best punishment; the one of can't be lived in a full sense.The one of being prisoners of some memories that will never be the same again.The one of keep on living of these memories from the past and their own wishes for the future,but almost never of realities in the present. But,as another Spanish song says:-It's better to love and after loose than never having loved.Wherever you'll be,I will remember you and you will stay with me".
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I love the way you put it, MPJ. Brokeback was both a remembrance and something that stayed with them always.
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I love the way you put it, MPJ. Brokeback was both a remembrance and something that stayed with them always.
:t) Thomas ˇ Brokeback for both of them was something they must live with and without at the same time. :c)
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:t) Thomas ˇ Brokeback for both of them was something they must live with and without at the same time. :c)
One couldn't live with and without it -- that was the paradox.
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Coming back to this thread's tittle,I remember that when we watch BBM on TV almost a year ago,when Jack told these words:-"Ol' Brokeback got us good"-that in Spanish got translated as "OBBM gripped us well"-Alma said:-"Yes,it did.Even if not in the same way for both of them...".I have never asked her what she meant;I wanted to ask her immediately,but she told me to shut up because she wanted to hear well.Afterwards,I haven't,also because I don't want to seem "obsessed" before her eyes.But you,what do you think those words meant?. ???
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Coming back to this thread's tittle,I remember that when we watch BBM on TV almost a year ago,when Jack told these words:-"Ol' Brokeback got us good"-that in Spanish got translated as "OBBM gripped us well"-Alma said:-"Yes,it did.Even if not in the same way for both of them...".I have never asked her what she meant;I wanted to ask her immediately,but she told me to shut up because she wanted to hear well.Afterwards,I haven't,also because I don't want to seem "obsessed" before her eyes.But you,what do you think those words meant?. ???
Very cryptic!
Is she implying that at that moment, Ennis was not really on the same plane as Jack when it came to the significance of their time on BBM? Or did she imply the other way? I would think she implied the former, given Ennis's later refusal to give in to the Sweet Life proposed by Jack. But is this fair?
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Very cryptic!
Is she implying that at that moment, Ennis was not really on the same plane as Jack when it came to the significance of their time on BBM? Or did she imply the other way? I would think she implied the former, given Ennis's later refusal to give in to the Sweet Life proposed by Jack. But is this fair?
I can't answer your questions,because it's me who has asked for its meaning... ??? I don't know for sure,but I think she implied that,while for Jack BBM meant the discovering of real love,for Ennis meant firstly and mainly,the discovering of a facet of his way of being that marked him for life.But no,I don't think that thinking that way it's fair...
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I can't answer your questions,because it's me who has asked for its meaning... ??? I don't know for sure,but I think she implied that,while for Jack BBM meant the discovering of real love,for Ennis meant firstly and mainly,the discovering of a facet of his way of being that marked him for life.But no,I don't think that thinking that way it's fair...
So for Ennis, it was more like realizing a burden or handicap in life? Or something like this, I guess. There is certainly a difference in their attitudes, but I think in the case of Ennis, Brokeback signified both a liberation and a kind of condemnation -- to be marked for life, so to speak.
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So for Ennis, it was more like realizing a burden or handicap in life? Or something like this, I guess. There is certainly a difference in their attitudes, but I think in the case of Ennis, Brokeback signified both a liberation and a kind of condemnation -- to be marked for life, so to speak.
Well,anyhow these are not my words...;so,don't beat me,please ˇ ;D I think,for what she said then,that she meant that for Ennis was realising that his homosexuality discovered in BBM would be,yes,a kind of burden or handicap in life.Because these happy times really showed him something he hated and refused in his innest self.It's just like you say:it meant being marked for life,due to his tendencies,what Jack didn't feel the same way.Well,we must recognize that she's a little right,if she really meant this...Although,for me,BBM means for both of them the discovering of the love of their lives.Period.
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Well,anyhow these are not my words...;so,don't beat me,please ˇ ;D I think,for what she said then,that she meant that for Ennis was realising that his homosexuality discovered in BBM would be,yes,a kind of burden or handicap in life.Because these happy times really showed him something he hated and refused in his innest self.It's just like you say:it meant being marked for life,due to his tendencies,what Jack didn't feel the same way.Well,we must recognize that she's a little right,if she really meant this...Although,for me,BBM means for both of them the discovering of the love of their lives.Period.
Ergo, she thought that Jack was a kind of liability to him [i.e., Ennis]? Perhaps she questioned Ennis's sincerity, most especially in this scene where she made this comment...
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MPJ, I think you'd better ask her!!! You can tell it's me who asks coz you mentioned her words. Tell her I'm so eager to find out! :P :P :P
And I am, damn! %&)
#s}
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Owaah, so many thoughts
I don't think Ennis hated his sexuality, imo he was scared of the consequences. Someone said that they were not on the same plane: I think their point of view may differ but both of them cherished the BBM moments. I was rewatching SNIT scene and it really shows so many things.. Ennis is uncertain but in the end he enters the tent. He let down his barrier to Jack, he admitted he's different.
Jack reassuring words "It's okay, it's okay" show that Ennis IS scared. But he takes the risk..
He is aware of this "condemnation for life" thing but in the end joins Jack.
Really, a curse you can't live without..
Do you think they ever regretted their actions? My being wants to scream no, but.. :-\\
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Owaah, so many thoughts
I don't think Ennis hated his sexuality, imo he was scared of the consequences. Someone said that they were not on the same plane: I think their point of view may differ but both of them cherished the BBM moments. I was rewatching SNIT scene and it really shows so many things.. Ennis is uncertain but in the end he enters the tent. He let down his barrier to Jack, he admitted he's different.
Jack reassuring words "It's okay, it's okay" show that Ennis IS scared. But he takes the risk..
He is aware of this "condemnation for life" thing but in the end joins Jack.
Really, a curse you can't live without..
Do you think they ever regretted their actions? My being wants to scream no, but.. :-\\
Hey Jake!
I don't think they ever regretted Brokeback! It was just too gorgeous to regret!
The things happened on Brokeback were supposed to be left there. Ennis wanted to go home to his wife to be and have a normal life... but when Jack came back to his life, he lost it. The Reunion kiss showed that the time spent on Brokeback could never be erased!
SNIT? That's my favorite scene and it will always be!! I watched it hundreds of time... who knows how many? It is just that each time it got shorter and shorter... now it passes like a dream, in seconds of pure beauty. <^(
Yet, Ennis did hate his sexuality, coz he was taught to hate it. He WAS afraid about the consequences, but there was a certain darkness in him, darkness made of the urge he carried in himself - a call for a death penalty! He hated the fact he couldn't resist that urge. It was killing him, little by little... finally it terminated him through Jack's death... Awfully sad... :_(
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I dunno about his hate towards own sexuality.. but when I look at it from another perspective, it does make sense when you interpret the last scene as a way of self acceptance :s)
You said he wanted to go home and have a normal life.. How could he if he didn't regret his/their actions?
And what's the definition of a normal life? Living in a lie like always? Deep inside he wanted to be with Jack, that's how I see it.
I wish English was my first language co I could express difficult feelings better LOL
ps. SNIT is one of my favs too :) And it's kinda sad 'coz I know BBM 'escapade' is coming to an end :_( :_(
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He never called it Love... not until it was too late. He wanted to believe that it was only a game that the two of them played on Brokeback... nothing more.
Going back to the "normal life"... well, it was expected from him to marry, it was expected from him to have kids and to live with a woman - not man! THAT was normal life. And the year was 1963!!!! :m}
I can't see it as a regretful thing, but something that maybe really destroyed him in the end. Hadn't it been for his love and sex with Jack, he would've never known that the things can be different. He would've been much more satisfied with his life. IN this way, knowing the passion that can took over him when he's with his man... he was never himself. He was living a life he didn't want any more. Not after Brokeback! :-\\
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This topic makes me depressed %&)
''Accidential fu**s'' huh? Quoting Jack..
But what AFTER their BBM time? It was still just a game for him?
Damn you Ennis, screw the whole world, the normal life and expectations of others!
Oh, one second. You touched an interesting subject. I wonder if he would've been satisfied with his life without Jack..
Maybe, maybe not.
Something I've found:
"In early childhood, the child uses its power to create its first achievement : a sense of identity based on sexuality. Power is invisible, since it is subconscious, but sexual impressions are conscious and can be explored. It is these impressions, these emotions and desires, that attach the child to the parents. So sexual attachments are the means by which the child tries to create its first sense of identity. Awareness of one’s own identity is the first step towards attaining self-awareness."
This kinda suits Ennis -> As a child he created his first sense of identity but his father actions (showing him how male lovers ended) and "morality" (Morality as an uncritical acceptance of social norms) overwhelmed/overburdened him?
So maybe he was always aware of his sexuality but tuned it out/didn't act upon it?
If the answer is positive... I think he wouldn't be satisfied with his life. Always lacking something important.
Did that make any sense?
Conclusion:
I'm glad I was born in 80's and NOT in 60's. Like seriously...
We should move back in time and change their future! >:(
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Interesting exchnage here!
No need to feel depressed...
And Ennis is a survivor. He would have survived (and will survive) a life without jack. But finding happiness is another matter.
Perhaps happiness wasn't really the point for Ennis. It became more about remembrance. In that way, Brokeback got him good.
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This topic makes me depressed %&)
''Accidential fu**s'' huh? Quoting Jack..
But what AFTER their BBM time? It was still just a game for him?
Damn you Ennis, screw the whole world, the normal life and expectations of others!
Oh, one second. You touched an interesting subject. I wonder if he would've been satisfied with his life without Jack..
Maybe, maybe not.
Something I've found:
"In early childhood, the child uses its power to create its first achievement : a sense of identity based on sexuality. Power is invisible, since it is subconscious, but sexual impressions are conscious and can be explored. It is these impressions, these emotions and desires, that attach the child to the parents. So sexual attachments are the means by which the child tries to create its first sense of identity. Awareness of one’s own identity is the first step towards attaining self-awareness."
This kinda suits Ennis -> As a child he created his first sense of identity but his father actions (showing him how male lovers ended) and "morality" (Morality as an uncritical acceptance of social norms) overwhelmed/overburdened him?
So maybe he was always aware of his sexuality but tuned it out/didn't act upon it?
If the answer is positive... I think he wouldn't be satisfied with his life. Always lacking something important.
Did that make any sense?
Conclusion:
I'm glad I was born in 80's and NOT in 60's. Like seriously...
We should move back in time and change their future! >:(
;D ;D *o) How are the things now in Poland with homosexuality? :*(
Hm... about Ennis's idea of Brokeback... I don't think that he took is just as an accidental fu*k! Nope! But he definitely believed that it'll pass. He couldn't know how fiercely Brokeback got him!!! If not for Brokeback, he'd surely be ore satisfied with his life. Maybe never completely, but satisfied enough not to ruin his marriage.
Brokeback was his passion and his condemnation, his love and his hatred, his strength and his weakness...
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*o)
Well, I'm not sure %&) It depends on the person, but overall not bad. I don't have much experience and I'm 'b(i)etween' so ::)
And I hate these stupid classifications, as well as words gay, les and bi! Everyone's different so we shouldn't label people.
<end of rant ;D>
As someone said, it's a paradox...
Quoting you Loreen: "It's his passion and at the same time condemnation."
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*o)
Well, I'm not sure %&) It depends on the person, but overall not bad. I don't have much experience and I'm 'b(i)etween' so ::)
And I hate these stupid classifications, as well as words gay, les and bi! Everyone's different so we shouldn't label people.
<end of rant ;D>
As someone said, it's a paradox...
Quoting you Loreen: "It's his passion and at the same time condemnation."
That's good enough! :) For now! ;)
OK, Off Topic mod is over, mods! ;D
:-X
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Owaah, so many thoughts
I don't think Ennis hated his sexuality, imo he was scared of the consequences. Someone said that they were not on the same plane: I think their point of view may differ but both of them cherished the BBM moments. I was rewatching SNIT scene and it really shows so many things.. Ennis is uncertain but in the end he enters the tent. He let down his barrier to Jack, he admitted he's different.
Jack reassuring words "It's okay, it's okay" show that Ennis IS scared. But he takes the risk..
He is aware of this "condemnation for life" thing but in the end joins Jack.
Really, a curse you can't live without..
Do you think they ever regretted their actions? My being wants to scream no, but.. :-\\
IMO Ennis hated his sexuality because,as Loreen says,he was taught to hate it before he had some experience in it; and after that,because he knew he was feeling something damned by society and,as a consequence,that could put his life in danger,according to those learnings.I have sometimes said that he even hated himself for having these tendencies and that he hated Jack for the way he made him feel,for "forcing" him to feel it...; as a rather logical reaction of who lives in a continuous and permanent contradiction,as Ennis did.He didn't want to feel the way he felt,but he knew-even if he tried to deny it all his life-that it was the only way he felt alive,he felt loved,he felt himself.
So,of course,I don't think that he regretted his actions and the time spent in Brokeback,because,in spite of himself,they were the only happy and real moments in his life.He only tried to tell to himself that those times were like a mirage in the dessert of love that his life had been up to that moment; for this reason,coming down from the mountain was a return to reality,to the life me must to live according to society and he tried to accomplish these rules living "as a man must do",with a wife and some children.Period.Even if he surely remembered many times those happy months in the mountain,only Jack's arrival after four years of separation,made him realise it had been much more than just a dream,a youth's adventure due to loneliness.Surely for this,he was in a fight against himself half his life... :-\\
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I feel there is no better example that "Ol Brokeback got us good" than in the reunion scene.
It was post-Brokeback and 4 years had gone by. I think Jack was fully realizing the impact of Brokeback when he coined the phrase, while lying in bed, finally reunited with his love,and thinking of the reception he unexpectedly got from his normally reserved Ennis after he'd redlined it to Wyoming on hope and a prayer., It was that look on Jack's face as he was pushed back against the wall and practically devoured by Ennis as if he really could not stop himself if he wanted to. Jack said "4 yrs", and Ennis was like "yeah, 4 yrs." ...and still... it was Jack and Ennis, Ennis and Jack, like two peas in a pod.
Ennis was in the moment* long before Jack even got there and it showed, so pumped up with anticipation of seeing Jack again. There he was, sitting there waiting, beer after beer, smoke after smoke, hearing Alma speak about gettin a babysitter or something but not really hearing her words, the nervous jitter in his knee, not realizing his beer bottle was empty before he turned it up!, etc... , staring out the window, totally focused on Jack's arrival. ( excellent acting by Heath).. Jack was right, Ol Brokeback got em both good. MO.
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Good points Aintfoolin... maybe only to add this - Jack was also in the mood, anticipating and hoping for Ennis's passion.
Swear to God I didn't know we was going to get into this again.***
*** Yes, I did. Red-lined it here all the way....couldn't get here fast enough.
;)
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Wow, Everyone in this thread has made some geat comments &**)
IMO, though, Ennis and Jack were soulmates - inseparable, two peas in a pod. They completed each other.
However, I think that their being on Brokeback Mountain, being so elusive and free and solitary, was the reason that they ever acted upon their love for one another. I think it is fair to say that, had they not the privacy of the mountain, it would have been impossible for the unlikely lovers to ever express or act upon their feelings, given the time and place
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Wow, Everyone in this thread has made some geat comments &**)
IMO, though, Ennis and Jack were soulmates - inseparable, two peas in a pod. They completed each other.
However, I think that their being on Brokeback Mountain, being so elusive and free and solitary, was the reason that they ever acted upon their love for one another. I think it is fair to say that, had they not the privacy of the mountain, it would have been impossible for the unlikely lovers to ever express or act upon their feelings, given the time and place
So true. They could only be themselves in the both the isolation and freedom of the Mountain. Doesn't this sound contradictory? BBM was both liberator and prison for both of them... In its confines, they could be themselves, but they could never be themselves outside of it.
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So true. They could only be themselves in the both the isolation and freedom of the Mountain. Doesn't this sound contradictory? BBM was both liberator and prison for both of them... In its confines, they could be themselves, but they could never be themselves outside of it.
Veryy true. What a cruel, ironic, yet somewhat beautiful little contradiction.
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So true. They could only be themselves in the both the isolation and freedom of the Mountain. Doesn't this sound contradictory? BBM was both liberator and prison for both of them... In its confines, they could be themselves, but they could never be themselves outside of it.
It is interesting though, that they went to some many mountains during their "fishing trips", but never returned to Brokeback... Of course, I understand the symbolism of that - they never had in their lives again what they'd had in Brokeback, yet, I wonder if any of them ever asked - How about we go to Brokeback this time? Or - do you think we could see how it looks now?... Anything... I guess they both avoided it, like they were avoiding many truths about their relationship and all...It was probably too emotional for both.
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It is interesting though, that they went to some many mountains during their "fishing trips", but never returned to Brokeback... Of course, I understand the symbolism of that - they never had in their lives again what they'd had in Brokeback, yet, I wonder if any of them ever asked - How about we go to Brokeback this time? Or - do you think we could see how it looks now?... Anything... I guess they both avoided it, like they were avoiding many truths about their relationship and all...It was probably too emotional for both.
I think you have hit in the nail;even the curiosity couldn't make them return to BBM during all these years(at least,as AP created the s.s.).Having the material and economic-let's say-possibility of doing it,there was something inside them that avoided it,something in a more personal and moral level.Even Ennis,who spent his life denying,knew that going there could mean finding themselves face to face with the truth of their relationship,their past and their possible future in common.There were too many questions to ask and too many answers to give that remained there on the mountain,because outside of it none of them were able to face them completely.Moreover,they say that "it's better never coming back to the place where one has been happy"... :-\\
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Good point!
As both of you have hinted, not going back to BBM is in itself a symbol -- something like a loss of innocence -- or an expulsion from Eden. It's an irreversible process -- even if they did go back, they understood that things wouldn't be the same. And so it became a kind of ideal, for both of them -- something to dream about and aspire to, but never going back to it.
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Good point!
As both of you have hinted, not going back to BBM is in itself a symbol -- something like a loss of innocence -- or an expulsion from Eden. It's an irreversible process -- even if they did go back, they understood that things wouldn't be the same. And so it became a kind of ideal, for both of them -- something to dream about and aspire to, but never going back to it.
Exactly ˇ Not going back to BBM meant their past and their present-maybe their future too?-and the irreversible difference between both times.You have said it very well;the expulsion from Eden.Because they had already tasted the bitterness of the real life,this couldn't be ever so sweet as the months spent there...
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great points all of you! :D
I kind of like to think of it as a beautiful tragedy - it's like diana ossana said
"They never return to Brokeback - it's their idol, and they dont want to spoil it"
I think that they dont want their memories of the one place they were truly happy and free to be marred by the urgency and infrequency, as well as the ever-looming end, of their all too short moments together.
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great points all of you! :D
I kind of like to think of it as a beautiful tragedy - it's like diana ossana said
"They never return to Brokeback - it's their idol, and they dont want to spoil it"
I think that they dont want their memories of the one place they were truly happy and free to be marred by the urgency and infrequency, as well as the ever-looming end, of their all too short moments together.
I never heard of this... VERY interesting and so true - it really was their idol and they didn't want to spoil it...
Oh... :_(
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I never heard of this... VERY interesting and so true - it really was their idol and they didn't want to spoil it...
Oh... :_(
yeah, I think Diana Ossana really expressed it best then...it is sad, but I think its very true...if they go back to the one place where they knew true pure freedom and happiness, sanctuary even, then it would just be tainted by the fact that they could not stay that way and would have to leave...
its the urgency of their brief meetings that keeps them from going back, and its just heartbreaking :_(
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yeah, I think Diana Ossana really expressed it best then...it is sad, but I think its very true...if they go back to the one place where they knew true pure freedom and happiness, sanctuary even, then it would just be tainted by the fact that they could not stay that way and would have to leave...
its the urgency of their brief meetings that keeps them from going back, and its just heartbreaking :_(
The passage of time can alter so much. Jack and Ennis were young men when they came together on Brokeback. The purity that they had could only be tempered by the time. Four years later, they knew what they wanted but could not go back. Jack was ready but Ennis was not, that is the struggle that went on for so long until Jack died and Ennis came to understand. I will never get over this.
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The passage of time can alter so much. Jack and Ennis were young men when they came together on Brokeback. The purity that they had could only be tempered by the time. Four years later, they knew what they wanted but could not go back. Jack was ready but Ennis was not, that is the struggle that went on for so long until Jack died and Ennis came to understand. I will never get over this.
Yeah... I guess none of us here will... :(
It just can't be worse for them. One left forever and the other one came to his senses... way too late. :m}
yeah, I think Diana Ossana really expressed it best then...it is sad, but I think its very true...if they go back to the one place where they knew true pure freedom and happiness, sanctuary even, then it would just be tainted by the fact that they could not stay that way and would have to leave...
its the urgency of their brief meetings that keeps them from going back, and its just heartbreaking :_(
Heartbreaking is the right word. :_( :_( :_(
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I have sometimes repeated this phrase that warns us not to come back where we have been happy once... :-\\ And in Ennis and Jack's case,BBM was more than this;it was like a symbol.The symbol of their freedom to live a doomed love that never will be lived in the same way,because society denied it and denied them.To come back to this place would have meant to be free again,without any fastening nor fears...and that couldn't be.
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I have sometimes repeated this phrase that warns us not to come back where we have been happy once... :-\\ And in Ennis and Jack's case,BBM was more than this;it was like a symbol.The symbol of their freedom to live a doomed love that never will be lived in the same way,because society denied it and denied them.To come back to this place would have meant to be free again,without any fastening nor fears...and that couldn't be.
And yet...I wonder what it would have been like for Ennis if he could've retreived Jack's ashes from OMT. For Ennis to make that lonely trek up into BBM one last time to spread Jack's ashes there like he wanted. How emotional that would be for Ennis. Could Ennis really do it?, and could he finally find some type of closure by performing it??...I wonder.
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And yet...I wonder what it would have been like for Ennis if he could've retreived Jack's ashes from OMT. For Ennis to make that lonely trek up into BBM one last time to spread Jack's ashes there like he wanted. How emotional that would be for Ennis. Could Ennis really do it?, and could he finally find some type of closure by performing it??...I wonder.
This is a very interesting question. I remember a fic written by our Laura-"Homecoming". It deals with that theme in a very beautiful way. The way we'd all wanted it to be - Jack's spirit talked to Ennis with a certain symbols.
But what with the cruel reality... a lonely Ennis on a lonely place that used to be his everything... his life, his real home... and now everything gone. Only him and a half of Jack's remains... (God, even writing about it breaks my heart... :_( ) and then leaving Jack there on the mountains. Leaving him home and then going back to his own lonely life...
Would Ennis die there from the pain and sorrow? I don't know. He was a tough guy, not a breakable material. But on Brokeback he was something else, someone else. Would it break him? Would it show him in the most exposed form of pain what he'd missed by losing Jack? Would the mountain had the impact on him that could multiply the impact of Jack's departure and then break him?
I don't know... But only the idea of seeing him up there on Brokeback, old, alone, saying goodbye to everything and the only one he loved is absolutely heartbreaking. :_( :_( :_(
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Would Ennis die there from the pain and sorrow? I don't know. He was a tough guy, not a breakable material. But on Brokeback he was something else, someone else. Would it break him? Would it show him in the most exposed form of pain what he'd missed by losing Jack? Would the mountain had the impact on him that could multiply the impact of Jack's departure and then break him?
I don't know... But only the idea of seeing him up there on Brokeback, old, alone, saying goodbye to everything and the only one he loved is absolutely heartbreaking. :_( :_( :_(
I thought about this too. Was Ennis ever is so great a despair that he would have rather not continue living? I have always thought what made Ennis go on after Jacks' death. The daughters, maybe. Or perhaps the memory of Jack. Had he been able to bring the ashes back to BBM, he probably would have gotten a bit of solace and closure, but I think his knowing that BBM was the one place dearest to Jack was surely enough.
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I thought about this too. Was Ennis ever is so great a despair that he would have rather not continue living? I have always thought what made Ennis go on after Jacks' death. The daughters, maybe. Or perhaps the memory of Jack. Had he been able to bring the ashes back to BBM, he probably would have gotten a bit of solace and closure, but I think his knowing that BBM was the one place dearest to Jack was surely enough.
I have thought about this too,but I haven't arrived to any plausible conclusion.Doubtless,to be in the only place where he felt happy and felt himself ,but without the person who made it possible,it'd have been a heavy burden for him;heavy enough as not wanting to keep on living a miserable life from that moment onwards,why not?.But on the other hand,his daughter's presence,yes,but also the certainty that he had done what he must do,taking Jack to their first and last home;and,more specially,the certainty that his lover would be waiting for him there,could have given him enough strength to carry on.Sweet memories of the past,sweet hopes for the future... :_(
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I have thought about this too,but I haven't arrived to any plausible conclusion.Doubtless,to be in the only place where he felt happy and felt himself ,but without the person who made it possible,it'd have been a heavy burden for him;heavy enough as not wanting to keep on living a miserable life from that moment onwards,why not?.But on the other hand,his daughter's presence,yes,but also the certainty that he had done what he must do,taking Jack to their first and last home;and,more specially,the certainty that his lover would be waiting for him there,could have given him enough strength to carry on.Sweet memories of the past,sweet hopes for the future... :_(
Damn, I get emotional so easily nowadays. I'm such a mush inside it's scary. But it's between us ;)
I think Ennis would get the strength to live from his daughters but in the end, I think, it would be a really miserable existence.
Maybe many of you don't agree but memories are what they are, just memories. Their power might not be enough after a longer period of time. Yes, he would have Junior, maybe Jenny - but they would get married one day and leave.
Going to work, getting home ALONE, sleeping ALONE, left with dreams, guilt, always wondering what could have been..
I don't think I'd want to live
About the certainty that his lover would be waiting for him - for me there's no certainty - just the opposite - maybe he will never see Jack again? Never talk to him, never share his moments with him, never see his face.
Knowing all this, knowing what he lost and maybe, will never experience again - Jack, I swear [if I could move back in time I would?]
The question is
Would Ennis be able to forgive himself? For leaving Jack alone?
Losing the chance of the sweet life many people dream of and never have?
Every day, waking up alone, searching the bed for Jack's hand and realizing Jack's not alive anymore?
Just thinking about it makes me suicidal, sorry
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Damn, I get emotional so easily nowadays. I'm such a mush inside it's scary. But it's between us ;)
I think Ennis would get the strength to live from his daughters but in the end, I think, it would be a really miserable existence.
Maybe many of you don't agree but memories are what they are, just memories. Their power might not be enough after a longer period of time. Yes, he would have Junior, maybe Jenny - but they would get married one day and leave.
Going to work, getting home ALONE, sleeping ALONE, left with dreams, guilt, always wondering what could have been..
I don't think I'd want to live
About the certainty that his lover would be waiting for him - for me there's no certainty - just the opposite - maybe he will never see Jack again? Never talk to him, never share his moments with him, never see his face.
Knowing all this, knowing what he lost and maybe, will never experience again - Jack, I swear [if I could move back in time I would?]
The question is
Would Ennis be able to forgive himself? For leaving Jack alone?
Losing the chance of the sweet life many people dream of and never have?
Every day, waking up alone, searching the bed for Jack's hand and realizing Jack's not alive anymore?
Just thinking about it makes me suicidal, sorry
Yes... suicidal! I understand you well.
I agree with you - memories do fade away. Maybe the guilt too... ???
Also, in time people change. Would Brokeback mountain influence those changes in positive or in negative way for Ennis's future, it is hard to know. :s) We only know that bringing Jack's ashes to BBM would be truly overwhelming for Ennis.
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Yes... suicidal! I understand you well.
I agree with you - memories do fade away. Maybe the guilt too... ???
Also, in time people change. Would Brokeback mountain influence those changes in positive or in negative way for Ennis's future, it is hard to know. :s) We only know that bringing Jack's ashes to BBM would be truly overwhelming for Ennis.
I agree, overwhelming indeed! I see Ennis very hesitent to do it once he held them. There are lots of questions though. It would mean Ennis letting go. By taking the ashes up there, there would be a finality associated with it. Maybe by going back to the beginning, he could better accept the end.. after all, it's something Jack wanted, and it was something within Ennis's power to do .
No doubt Ennis would finally say "Jack, I'm sorry" up there on Brokeback Mt. along with everything else he felt, but could never say out loud. Sort of like an emotional cleansing ritual?
Would it change him in a positive or a negative way? Good question. who knows, it's Ennis.
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There are lots of questions though.
No doubt Ennis would finally say "Jack, I'm sorry" up there on Brokeback Mt. along with everything else he felt, but could never say out loud. Sort of like an emotional cleansing ritual?
Would it change him in a positive or a negative way? Good question. who knows, it's Ennis.
Yeah, it would be difficult to know. Could there ever be any closure?
There does seem to be some difference, there, between the SS and the film. The film's last scenes can suggest all kinds of endings for Ennis. And, as Ethan once noted, he was putting up his address on his mailbox, which would be a sign, maybe, of being open to new life. And he did commit to his daughter.
But, in the prologue of the SS, I don't see any chance of Ennis ever having much of a life or "moving on" (which is a phrase that can be very wrongful). Jack Twist had been in his dreams, and so, as he awoke in a sweat-drenched bed, he was happy. This was a slowly dying man, I think, but one who had internalized Jack, and would carry this great love to the grave. He lived off of dreams of his lost lover.
But however we see this, I always defer to AF, (well, ok, almost always), as her understanding of Ennis is very advanced. I bolded the above, because, by saying she didn't know absolutely, but then, mentioning that it was Ennis, supposes we should take that into account. And we should. A lot of people make up an Ennis that they would want, rather than accepting the one we met.
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Yeah, it would be difficult to know. Could there ever be any closure?
There does seem to be some difference, there, between the SS and the film. The film's last scenes can suggest all kinds of endings for Ennis. And, as Ethan once noted, he was putting up his address on his mailbox, which would be a sign, maybe, of being open to new life. And he did commit to his daughter.
But, in the prologue of the SS, I don't see any chance of Ennis ever having much of a life or "moving on" (which is a phrase that can be very wrongful). Jack Twist had been in his dreams, and so, as he awoke in a sweat-drenched bed, he was happy. This was a slowly dying man, I think, but one who had internalized Jack, and would carry this great love to the grave. He lived off of dreams of his lost lover.
But however we see this, I always defer to AF, (well, ok, almost always), as her understanding of Ennis is very advanced. I bolded the above, because, by saying she didn't know absolutely, but then, mentioning that it was Ennis, supposes we should take that into account. And we should. A lot of people make up an Ennis that they would want, rather than accepting the one we met.
Well, thanks Tony, He's a complex man that Ennis Del Mar. He's basically a good man with a good heart. Good and proper , but while watching him evolve in the film, ..going from a shy, introverted, wounded soul and basically anti-social to a wild and crazy naked cliffjumper. Just when I felt I had him figured, he'd surprised me."grin" but...
Your right, Ennis did internalize what he and Jack had together and he dreamed about it.. which could suggest that Ennis thought about Jack alot after his death. Living on dreams of Jack when sleeping and now having plenty of time to put into perspective why Jack did and said the things he did while he was still alive while awake.. It's all could've, should've now, but Jack was the best thing that ever happened to him. It could be a bleak picture at times, but I bet when Ennis looked back at the insanity of it all , he smiled. Ah, the memories he had with Jack Twist. Ol' Brokeback got us good. MO.