Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: chowhound on Dec 22, 2009, 07:47 PM
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In the past, it has been suggested that Jack's love for Ennis was "wearing out" but I have my doubts about this. After all, in the final quarrel scene, Jack doesn't say that he's quitting Ennis but "I wish I knew how to quit you". In this moment of emotional exasperation with Ennis, Jack may well wish to be quit of Ennis but, as he acknowledges, he doesn't know how. I suspect that once things have settled down, all thoughts of even trying to quit Ennis will have disappeared.
Nevertheless, this is an important scene as it is directly connected to the second tent scene and, because of this link, we can look back over the whole of the movie and possibly forward as well.The link is provided by Jack. In the second tent scene, as Jack starts to hold Ennis, he murmurs to him "it's all right...it's all right". In the quarrel scene, as Jack once more takes Ennis in his arms, he again says to him "it's all right...it's all right". The difference , however, is that after the second "all right", Jack adds "damn you, Ennis". However, Jack's addition of "damn you" here is not, I think, a suggestion that he's about to walk away but an expression of emotional frustration that something that started in that second tent scene has never, for Jack at least, reached a satisfactory conclusion even after nineteen years.
However, if the quarrel scene is a way of looking back, it also leaves open the question of what will happen next. Will anything change? I think it's possible that it isn't Jack who changes but Ennis. When Ennis sends Jack that final postcard suggesting that the two of them meet up at Pine Creek on Nov. 7. it looks as though this is the first time that Ennis has been the initiator in arranging their meetings, This, I think, is significant. Also, he's had the whole summer to think things over and recognize that Jack has even mentioned the notion that he might quit Ennis. Then Ennis's family obligations for his daughters are lessening. By the time of the quarrel scene, Alma Jr is at least seeing her first boyfriend, Troy, if not her husband-to-be, Kurt. Jenny can't be far behind. If his child support payments stop at 18, then he'll have stopped paying money for Alma Jr by the time of the quarrel scene and the same will be true of Jenny in a year or so. As well, in society, things are changing. "83 is not '63 and by '83, gay men are integrating a little more easily into society compared to twenty years ago. Even Ennis must be vaguely aware of this.
For all these reasons, I believe that Ennis, at that November meeting, might well have been prepared to offer Jack more of that "sweet life" than he had ever been prepared to before. If I'm right, of course, the tragedy is, that all of this came a few months too late.
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dear CH
I substantially agree with most of what you propose here. It certainly seems like a possible view of the future, Ennis’s view of the future anyway. I think your insight into the “Ennis initiated” postcard, versus what were we’re shown earlier as only “Jack initiated” postcards is particularly important. Then there are those words uttered by the sobbing, defeated, and collapsed Ennis as he’s being comforted in the arms of Jack “I can’t stand this anymore Jack” – said by the man who years earlier uttered “if you can’t fix it Jack, you gotta’ stand it”. Now he can’t stand it, so you’re right, maybe he will now (finally) fix it.
For myself this potentiality is part of the great tragedy of the story and what makes it so compelling and endlessly fascinating.
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Yes, this is basically the way I see it and that is what makes it so heart breaking :_( and it is also why we love this movie so much.
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Good point,CH ¡ I have sometimes thought about this possibility of a change in Ennis state of mind after the FC,and I agree with the basic stripes you have shown in your post.It's more than probable because a person so stoic,so close in himself and in his fears as Ennis is,usually needs an strong beat-psychically,and sometimes even physically... :m} - to realise that the way they are taking is not the correct.And doubtless the FC and all what was deduced from it was an strong beat in his mind and feelings.The most important of all was the certainty that he was loosing Jack or,at least,that he was risking to loose him;for the first time,he dared to insinuate that he could take the initiative of breaking their relationship-even if he didn't know how to do it...-and,specially,the shadow of another man whom Jack could meet in one of his trips to Mexico or everywhere-even if it was Ennis who still didn't know about Randall-,could be enough as to oblige him to reframe everything about the both of them.
But when I don't agree is in that maybe Jack's love was wearing out or,at least,it was alive but with too many doubts about their common future.For the first time also in a lot of years,it's Jack who insinuates that the best thing to do is leaving it;and his words,his gestures,his deep sorrow but also his great deception reflect that he is fed up with the situation,more than fed up...I have thought many times that maybe Jack was in love with being in love with Ennis,I'll explain myself; maybe he loved the idea of a great love that they lived in BBM,he was in love with the memories more than with the reality.He was in love with someone who gave him a lot of frustration along the years,who didn't correspond with the ideal he had been forging in his mind and heart.Often,we love something or somebody remembering a past time that is not anymore.
So,to make a long story short,yes,maybe Ennis was thinking very seriously to change his mind for fear of loosing Jack definitively,because he had seen that who was very willing to change was Jack precisely.And,being Jack alive,maybe he would have had to fight for recovering his trust,more than his love...JMHO.
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I do think that there was a change of heart -- small, but significant. The Cassie episode reinforces this in my mind. For me, his breaking off with Cassie was a positive step that hinted at a desire to move on and not to leave people hanging...
Whether this would have translated as an immediate response to jack is hard to tell. Probably not immediate. But he had been nudged and was no longer in equilibrium.
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I do think that there was a change of heart -- small, but significant. The Cassie episode reinforces this in my mind. For me, his breaking off with Cassie was a positive step that hinted at a desire to move on and not to leave people hanging...
Whether this would have translated as an immediate response to jack is hard to tell. Probably not immediate. But he had been nudged and was no longer in equilibrium.
I agree, breaking it off with Cassie was a turning point for him and sending Jack the postcard for the Nov meeting. I think he was really willing to try, probably in his own way, but still try to make an effort to improve his relationship with Jack.
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Many thanks to those who have so thoughtfully replied to my OP.
What's going through Jack's mind during the summer of '83 is clearly something the movie leaves each viewer to decide. However, what version each viewer tentatively decides upon may partly be dependent on the disposition of that viewer. There is a rough scale or line that stretches from soft hearted romantic at one end to hard headed realist at the other. Where each of us falls on that line may well have a role to play in which version of the story one settles upon. I'll confess I fall very much towards soft hearted romantic (SHR?) end of the line and that may well be the reason I prefer the "faithful" Jack version.
In closing, let me note that the movie was cut so as to provide equal room for the SHR point of view or version. In an earlier version there was a scene in which Jack gets out of a car driven by Randall to pick up his own car, a scene overlooked by two menacing but silent mechanics. (The two mechanics in the English version of the trailer comes from this scene). If that scene had been included, then the SHR point of view would have been more difficult to maintain. But Ang Lee decided to cut it and thereby gave equal weight to the SHR point of view.
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I certainly think that the writers and the director clearly intended for each of us to make his/own conclusions and try to see the events within our mind's eye. For those who watch movies in order not to think (and there are many of these viewers), they would wish that the story and film would tell them everything. But for those who do like to contemplate true art within the frame of one's own experience, it cannot be otherwise -- to spell everything out would be depriving the thoughtful viewer of the greatest beauty of the story.
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Well put on all point thomas.
O0 O0 O0 O0
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I certainly think that the writers and the director clearly intended for each of us to make his/own conclusions and try to see the events within our mind's eye. For those who watch movies in order not to think (and there are many of these viewers), they would wish that the story and film would tell them everything. But for those who do like to contemplate true art within the frame of one's own experience, it cannot be otherwise -- to spell everything out would be depriving the thoughtful viewer of the greatest beauty of the story.
Well said,Thomas ¡ :clap: I also think that letting enough space in viewer's mind to arrive to their own conclusion,is what gives the story a greater and deeper meaning:each one of us can see the development of the events during these last months according to their own experience and way of being-and feeling-in love matters.The same than the real meaning of this "Jack.I swear",this "open" end gives us more reasons to be touched for this great and painfully beautiful story.
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Thanks jackster and MPJ!
If Ennis really was at a turning point -- so many many possibilities in each of our mind's eye. And not all happy or clear-cut, btw. It brings us to contemplate what it means to have a change of heart, and to what lengths would one go as a manifestation of such a change. I think of Ennis in terms of incremental, if not infinitesimal changes.
But to what good is this change of heart, if Jack's heart changed the other way? That too is a (painful) possibility.
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Thanks jackster and MPJ!
If Ennis really was at a turning point -- so many many possibilities in each of our mind's eye. And not all happy or clear-cut, btw. It brings us to contemplate what it means to have a change of heart, and to what lengths would one go as a manifestation of such a change. I think of Ennis in terms of incremental, if not infinitesimal changes.
But to what good is this change of heart, if Jack's heart changed the other way? That too is a (painful) possibility.
Sometimes people get tired of waiting for something that,even if very and deeply wished,lasts a lot of time in arriving(or,at least,in showing the littlest indication of accomplishment)...Sometimes people get accustomed to live wishing something but not having it,to dream on it but never touch it...Maybe too many years had passed for Jack as to really believe that something was going to change in Ennis heart and,like a consequence,in their relationship's future-altough this should be developed in the thread dedicated to know if Jack's love had worn out or in the other dedicated to how long their relationship would have endured...-.Ennis and Jack's relationship was kind of doomed from the very beginning as to have a happy ending without any death involved; both of some of them or of their love,or at least,of their future together... :_(
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Sometimes people get tired of waiting for something that,even if very and deeply wished,lasts a lot of time in arriving(or,at least,in showing the littlest indication of accomplishment)...Sometimes people get accustomed to live wishing something but not having it,to dream on it but never touch it...Maybe too many years had passed for Jack as to really believe that something was going to change in Ennis heart and,like a consequence,in their relationship's future-altough this should be developed in the thread dedicated to know if Jack's love had worn out or in the other dedicated to how long their relationship would have endured...-.Ennis and Jack's relationship was kind of doomed from the very beginning as to have a happy ending without any death involved; both of some of them or of their love,or at least,of their future together... :_(
It is common for true lovers to part ways, only to come back to each other. Sometimes, it is inevitable. I think that there is this kind of inevitability with Ennis and jack. Even if Jack parted ways with Ennis, what is there to say that THAT would have been final. 20 years on and off is a LONG time. Some persistence against all odds is telling.
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It is common for true lovers to part ways, only to come back to each other. Sometimes, it is inevitable. I think that there is this kind of inevitability with Ennis and jack. Even if Jack parted ways with Ennis, what is there to say that THAT would have been final. 20 years on and off is a LONG time. Some persistence against all odds is telling.
They part ways and,very often,when they come back to each other they're surer of themselves.Not necessarily because their feelings are deeper,but because these feelings are more free;free of the misunderstandings and problems that chained them and that time allows to think over and realise what they must do and when.And in this sense,is obvious that Ennis had time enough to thinking and realising that they were almost arriving to a close-end; surely his situation and latter conversation with Cassie helped him very much in this process.She was,without knowing it,a kind of teacher for him...
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They part ways and,very often,when they come back to each other they're surer of themselves.Not necessarily because their feelings are deeper,but because these feelings are more free;free of the misunderstandings and problems that chained them and that time allows to think over and realise what they must do and when.And in this sense,is obvious that Ennis had time enough to thinking and realising that they were almost arriving to a close-end; surely his situation and latter conversation with Cassie helped him very much in this process.She was,without knowing it,a kind of teacher for him...
Some relationships can be very tempestuous: successive partings and reconciliations. I somehow get this feeling that such would have been the trajectory of a future life for both of them, had Jack lived. One this is for sure: they wouldn't be able to get rid or forget the other completely. Each is the other's grand obsession.
Had not both of them gone through a change of heart when they met each other after 4 years of separation?
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Some relationships can be very tempestuous: successive partings and reconciliations. I somehow get this feeling that such would have been the trajectory of a future life for both of them, had Jack lived. One this is for sure: they wouldn't be able to get rid or forget the other completely. Each is the other's grand obsession.
Had not both of them gone through a change of heart when they met each other after 4 years of separation?
Hum :s) I have really thought this sometimes,I can't deny it...But what I'm sure about also is that any of them had been able to forget the other completely; when a love is so great and,moreover,has had to fight against adversities and intolerances,it couldn't die completely.
How had they lived this love being Jack alive? I guess that FC marked an after and a before for their relationship; nothing would be the same because,at least,they had relieved themselves before each other,for the first time in their lives together,really.But it's also true that there were some facts that had marked them very much also,some facts that couldn't be so easily forgotten or lessened;in this sense,it's obvious that Ennis fears weight too much in their relationship,enough as to mean a series of successive partings and reconciliations,as you said...But I guess that the first step to see things in another level had been done in this confrontation,even if it was a little bit only.
As regards to their change of heart after the 4 years of separation,if I have understood your question well enough...well,I suppose it meant somehow a change of heart when they left their "normal" lives to leave themselves in the arms of their true love,both physically and psychically.Specially,again ¡ in Ennis case:his cold farewell down from BBM changed to the warmest of welcomes,forgetting all the prejudges and fears that surrounded him.He,somehow,accepted what he felt,even if he never accepted what he was...I don't know if this is what you mean; if not,sorry too...
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I think they forgot the 4 years when they were separated, and the lessons learned in that breif but difficult time. But the problem also arose because jack felt that he didn't see Ennis enough. Certainly, Jack wanted much more than just once-in-a-while meetings.
I feel that the last confrontation was not exactly a divide: I think of it as more of a new beginning -- that was cruelly cut off by jack's death. Who knows? Perhaps Jack living with someone else was what was needed to make Ennis come out of his shell. But I think that something did change with Ennis after the last confrontation.
Hum :s) I have really thought this sometimes,I can't deny it...But what I'm sure about also is that any of them had been able to forget the other completely; when a love is so great and,moreover,has had to fight against adversities and intolerances,it couldn't die completely.
How had they lived this love being Jack alive? I guess that FC marked an after and a before for their relationship; nothing would be the same because,at least,they had relieved themselves before each other,for the first time in their lives together,really.But it's also true that there were some facts that had marked them very much also,some facts that couldn't be so easily forgotten or lessened;in this sense,it's obvious that Ennis fears weight too much in their relationship,enough as to mean a series of successive partings and reconciliations,as you said...But I guess that the first step to see things in another level had been done in this confrontation,even if it was a little bit only.
As regards to their change of heart after the 4 years of separation,if I have understood your question well enough...well,I suppose it meant somehow a change of heart when they left their "normal" lives to leave themselves in the arms of their true love,both physically and psychically.Specially,again ¡ in Ennis case:his cold farewell down from BBM changed to the warmest of welcomes,forgetting all the prejudges and fears that surrounded him.He,somehow,accepted what he felt,even if he never accepted what he was...I don't know if this is what you mean; if not,sorry too...
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I think they forgot the 4 years when they were separated, and the lessons learned in that breif but difficult time. But the problem also arose because jack felt that he didn't see Ennis enough. Certainly, Jack wanted much more than just once-in-a-while meetings.
I feel that the last confrontation was not exactly a divide: I think of it as more of a new beginning -- that was cruelly cut off by jack's death. Who knows? Perhaps Jack living with someone else was what was needed to make Ennis come out of his shell. But I think that something did change with Ennis after the last confrontation.
Well,we could say that a new beginning is a kind of division,because one tries to cut with one's former life,no?.Anyhow,and calling as anyone wants to,I see FC like something that makes their lives change,for good or for bad.They told so many things as to let them in a corner of their memories,without having a clear reflection in their daily lives...
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For me, there is no doubt that the Last Confrontation was a an imporant dividing or crisi point -- as in the breaking of a fever. Had jack lived, I really feel that something was moving in a new directiion. Perhpas this increases the irony and sadness of it all. After all, much of BBM is about missed opportunities...
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For me, there is no doubt that the Last Confrontation was a an imporant dividing or crisi point -- as in the breaking of a fever. Had jack lived, I really feel that something was moving in a new directiion. Perhpas this increases the irony and sadness of it all. After all, much of BBM is about missed opportunities...
Yes,you're right,and this is also one of its biggest sadness... :_( But also one of the biggest lessons that it teaches us.
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For me, there is no doubt that the Last Confrontation was a an imporant dividing or crisi point -- as in the breaking of a fever. Had jack lived, I really feel that something was moving in a new directiion. Perhpas this increases the irony and sadness of it all. After all, much of BBM is about missed opportunities...
Delurking to say that I agree that this may have well been a turning point in the relationship as far as Ennis goes. After breaking down in the confrontation, Ennis states " I can't take this no more Jack", but is holding onto Jack for dear life. . Time goes by and Ennis initiates a meeting via a postcard. Now if Ennis could'nt deal with the situation anymore, why would he even send a postcard? What would he have to say for himself in November after Jack has made his feelings about he and Ennis's problems within the relationship quite clear? Would'nt Ennis know that the status quo would no longer be acceptable to Jack?
Something would have to have changed, Would'nt Ennis need something bolder and different to offer Jack at that meeting? Ennis was willing to show up, but would'nt Jack be curious enough at that point to show up? I think Jacl was just tired of getting hurt by the rejection imo,..but even after all was said and done he did love Ennis and Ennis loved him.
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Delurking to say that I agree that this may have well been a turning point in the relationship as far as Ennis goes. After breaking down in the confrontation, Ennis states " I can't take this no more Jack", but is holding onto Jack for dear life. . Time goes by and Ennis initiates a meeting via a postcard. Now if Ennis could'nt deal with the situation anymore, why would he even send a postcard? What would he have to say for himself in November after Jack has made his feelings about he and Ennis's problems within the relationship quite clear? Would'nt Ennis know that the status quo would no longer be acceptable to Jack?
Something would have to have changed, Would'nt Ennis need something bolder and different to offer Jack at that meeting? Ennis was willing to show up, but would'nt Jack be curious enough at that point to show up? I think Jacl was just tired of getting hurt by the rejection imo,..but even after all was said and done he did love Ennis and Ennis loved him.
Ennis broke down because he was hearing the words that surely more than once he had told to himself,even if unconsciously.Doubtless he couldn't deal with this situation because it was harder for him than for Jack himself; yes,we're always talking about Jack's disappointments and sorrows,but,what about Ennis?.I said once that is rather more difficult to deny even to himself and,of course,before the one he loves what he was wishing deeply; very often this is harder,sadder and more difficult to maintain than being simply (simply?) rejected.Of course that facing for the first time with their reality saying it out loud was enough as to change their lives or,at least,their vision of the situation:I don't believe completely that this break down had been only a nervous collapse that is forgotten when its effects have disappeared returning to the old behaviours.But there's always,being Ennis as he was,the possibility that facing against society was too much for him to fight with; surely enough,he was overcoming an inner struggle against himself,his feelings and his fears during these months from FC to what was going to be their new encounter,that unlucky never was going to happen...As you say,what is completely sure is that both of them love each other as nobody could love them neither before nor after. <^(
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Ennis broke down because he was hearing the words that surely more than once he had told to himself,even if unconsciously.Doubtless he couldn't deal with this situation because it was harder for him than for Jack himself; yes,we're always talking about Jack's disappointments and sorrows,but,what about Ennis?.I said once that is rather more difficult to deny even to himself and,of course,before the one he loves what he was wishing deeply; very often this is harder,sadder and more difficult to maintain than being simply (simply?) rejected.Of course that facing for the first time with their reality saying it out loud was enough as to change their lives or,at least,their vision of the situation:I don't believe completely that this break down had been only a nervous collapse that is forgotten when its effects have disappeared returning to the old behaviours.But there's always,being Ennis as he was,the possibility that facing against society was too much for him to fight with; surely enough,he was overcoming an inner struggle against himself,his feelings and his fears during these months from FC to what was going to be their new encounter,that unlucky never was going to happen...As you say,what is completely sure is that both of them love each other as nobody could love them neither before nor after. <^(
This is so true, Ennis was in a sort of in denial about the whole matter of his feelings towards Jack.. It was painful to watch for both of them. I agree, Jack's words were a true reality that Ennis had been rationalizing in his own mind for quite some time, alot of "no way", what ifs, and "nope, it'll never works" going thru his mind, he knew, but maybe, just maybe hearing what he'd been denying said out loud with conviction would force Ennis to rethink or begin to face his biggest fears or loose Jack forever.
I feel it was somewhat harder for Ennis to let go and move on because it was also he, who could not completly accept the hurt inflicted on them both, due to denial of what he knew deep down inside, the honest truth that he was deeply in love with his Jack, and that man was starting to loose faith. Jack would quit him , leaving him to live, never having resolved those emotions. I feel Ennis definitly KNEW the hurt Jack was suffering due to action or lack of) on his part, and so was he, but he felt nothing could be done about it. .. (so he thought) .
But I feel that he was'nt willing to loose Jack from his life either.. Sending the postcard proved that. It seems he was caught between who he wanted so deeply to be for Jack and what he felt he could not be, due to fear Maybe he was thinking a little too much about the consequences.
Sure, violence towards gay men in those days was and still is a reality, but Ennis was a free man and entitled to his pursuit of happiness and that meant Jack and he living a life together. He had the right to love whom he pleased but was just so afraid to make it a reality. Maybe Jack's words finally hit home, no one knows for sure , but it's nice to think they did ,and caused Ennis to have a change of heart. My take.
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Yes,you're right,and this is also one of its biggest sadness... :_( But also one of the biggest lessons that it teaches us.
Did Ennis perhaps understand in the end that it is pretty much about new beginnings as much as missed opportunities?
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Delurking to say that I agree that this may have well been a turning point in the relationship as far as Ennis goes. After breaking down in the confrontation, Ennis states " I can't take this no more Jack", but is holding onto Jack for dear life. . Time goes by and Ennis initiates a meeting via a postcard. Now if Ennis could'nt deal with the situation anymore, why would he even send a postcard? What would he have to say for himself in November after Jack has made his feelings about he and Ennis's problems within the relationship quite clear? Would'nt Ennis know that the status quo would no longer be acceptable to Jack?
Something would have to have changed, Would'nt Ennis need something bolder and different to offer Jack at that meeting? Ennis was willing to show up, but would'nt Jack be curious enough at that point to show up? I think Jacl was just tired of getting hurt by the rejection imo,..but even after all was said and done he did love Ennis and Ennis loved him.
Well, his saying that he couldn't take it anymore was an indirect admission that the status quo had to change. perhaps jack should have taken heart when he heard this admission, but I think he was too far into despair...
Nonetheless, something did have to change, and Ennis knoew that if he didn't change, then life would be unbearable.
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Did Ennis perhaps understand in the end that it is pretty much about new beginnings as much as missed opportunities?
Maybe it's everything a sage mixture of both;because very often and unluckily,new beginnings are formed from missed opportunities.It's to say,one tries to begin by not making the same mistakes that forced him or her to miss these opportunities.
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This is so true, Ennis was in a sort of in denial about the whole matter of his feelings towards Jack.. It was painful to watch for both of them. I agree, Jack's words were a true reality that Ennis had been rationalizing in his own mind for quite some time, alot of "no way", what ifs, and "nope, it'll never works" going thru his mind, he knew, but maybe, just maybe hearing what he'd been denying said out loud with conviction would force Ennis to rethink or begin to face his biggest fears or loose Jack forever.
I feel it was somewhat harder for Ennis to let go and move on because it was also he, who could not completly accept the hurt inflicted on them both, due to denial of what he knew deep down inside, the honest truth that he was deeply in love with his Jack, and that man was starting to loose faith. Jack would quit him , leaving him to live, never having resolved those emotions. I feel Ennis definitly KNEW the hurt Jack was suffering due to action or lack of) on his part, and so was he, but he felt nothing could be done about it. .. (so he thought) .
But I feel that he was'nt willing to loose Jack from his life either.. Sending the postcard proved that. It seems he was caught between who he wanted so deeply to be for Jack and what he felt he could not be, due to fear Maybe he was thinking a little too much about the consequences.
Sure, violence towards gay men in those days was and still is a reality, but Ennis was a free man and entitled to his pursuit of happiness and that meant Jack and he living a life together. He had the right to love whom he pleased but was just so afraid to make it a reality. Maybe Jack's words finally hit home, no one knows for sure , but it's nice to think they did ,and caused Ennis to have a change of heart. My take.
Of course,he wasn't willing to loose Jack so easily; in spite of everything,he loved him too much for this...What I meant in my former post is that maybe he realised in the hardest way during FC that he was loosing Jack,and he couldn't accept it; and that he couldn't stand this situation anymore because he also was fed up with these little loses every time they had to separate and say goodbye until some months more.For me all this is doubtless.
But I also meant that maybe with his nerves a little calmer and with more time to think everything over,his fears could become stronger than the fear of loosing Jack,his impossibility of keep on seeing him once in a while in the middle of nowhere and his own wishes of letting everything behind and live with him.Of course that he was thinking and thinking about these painful words during those months and of course,above all,that he wanted to keep on meeting Jack ¡ Yes,the post card was a proof of all this; but a proof of what else?.I wonder...Maybe to keep on living that way,until the next confrontation?...Difficult to say,being as Ennis was.
However,you're right in everything,but mostly in that Ennis was caught between his feelings and his duties;between what he really wished and what he really thought he must do.But not only during the months after FC,but in all the rest of his life.That was their greatest problem,that maybe-only maybe...-began to break from the FC day onwards...
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Maybe it's everything a sage mixture of both;because very often and unluckily,new beginnings are formed from missed opportunities.It's to say,one tries to begin by not making the same mistakes that forced him or her to miss these opportunities.
I always felt that Ennis was wiser and more forgiving in the end. Sad and perhaps forever in mourning, but wiser and gentler, nonetheless.
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I always felt that Ennis was wiser and more forgiving in the end. Sad and perhaps forever in mourning, but wiser and gentler, nonetheless.
Doubtless.This is an strange characteristic of human condition;one always learns from the disgraces,almost never from good and happy events.And,as a consequence,one becomes wiser if one has been roughly beaten,psychologically speaking.
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Yes, it was as if the collapse of his own world made him more perceptive and caring of the world of others, specifically Alma Jr.'s. Some people turn bitter and hostile when life beats them down. I don't think we can term Ennis to be bitter in the end. I don't think it was bitterness at all. Certainly an element of resignation. Certainly an element of sadness. And most certainly: a loss of will to seek happiness for oneself, coupled with a will/desire to give happiness to others.
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Yes, it was as if the collapse of his own world made him more perceptive and caring of the world of others, specifically Alma Jr.'s. Some people turn bitter and hostile when life beats them down. I don't think we can term Ennis to be bitter in the end. I don't think it was bitterness at all. Certainly an element of resignation. Certainly an element of sadness. And most certainly: a loss of will to seek happiness for oneself, coupled with a will/desire to give happiness to others.
Yes,and this does have a certain logical; if his world had broken down,now a new beginning imposed over everything else.And this new beginning obliged him to learn from his former mistakes and faults.Among them there were doubtless the new perception and caring for the others,as you say;not forget the needs and wishes of the beloved ones who surrounded him,as he had made somehow with his family and,of course,with Jack.This is the real learning that bad and tragic moments should carry.
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Yes,and this does have a certain logical; if his world had broken down,now a new beginning imposed over everything else.And this new beginning obliged him to learn from his former mistakes and faults.Among them there were doubtless the new perception and caring for the others,as you say;not forget the needs and wishes of the beloved ones who surrounded him,as he had made somehow with his family and,of course,with Jack.This is the real learning that bad and tragic moments should carry.
I really think it heralded a new beginning -- as much as it heralded a definitive end to a part of Ennis's emotional life. There is a part of him that strove to bring happiness to others, as much as there is that part of him that will be forever divorced from happiness.
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I really think it heralded a new beginning -- as much as it heralded a definitive end to a part of Ennis's emotional life. There is a part of him that strove to bring happiness to others, as much as there is that part of him that will be forever divorced from happiness.
Yes,and that seems a contradiction,one more of the many that surrounded Ennis all his life.One one hand,he learned to bring happiness to his beloved ones and to appreciate it much more; on the other hand,however,he would never be able to feel the same happiness that he had lived,even-this is the most tragical of all-if he didn't realise it or if he denied it...
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Yes,and that seems a contradiction,one more of the many that surrounded Ennis all his life.One one hand,he learned to bring happiness to his beloved ones and to appreciate it much more; on the other hand,however,he would never be able to feel the same happiness that he had lived,even-this is the most tragical of all-if he didn't realise it or if he denied it...
I think the irony was not lost on Ennis. And I think it colors the last scene when he gazes at the shirt in his closet. The shirts, after all, embodied both love and devotion/fidelity, as well as sadness and pain. The former can no longer be divorced from the latter as far as Ennis was concerned. Such dichotomies/contradictions embody what Ennis had become later in life. He is an admixture of opposing forces.
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I think the irony was not lost on Ennis. And I think it colors the last scene when he gazes at the shirt in his closet. The shirts, after all, embodied both love and devotion/fidelity, as well as sadness and pain. The former can no longer be divorced from the latter as far as Ennis was concerned. Such dichotomies/contradictions embody what Ennis had become later in life. He is an admixture of opposing forces.
Exactly ¡ And I would say that this irony is active also when he closes the closet's door,saving on it the symbol of his lost but always alive love.But at the same time,we see an open window by the closet's side,as a symbol of his greater overture to life and future,to the real world beyond BBM.But this should be maybe be discussed in "Double meanings..."thread...
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Exactly ¡ And I would say that this irony is active also when he closes the closet's door,saving on it the symbol of his lost but always alive love.But at the same time,we see an open window by the closet's side,as a symbol of his greater overture to life and future,to the real world beyond BBM.But this should be maybe be discussed in "Double meanings..."thread...
In the same vein, although the tears in the end were taers of sadness and regret, one may also think of it as partly tears of love, if not happiness. To think of Jack at that moment must have conjured very deep feelings in Ennis --both the happy and the sad. It is this complexity that lends great pathos to the closing scene.
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dear CH
I substantially agree with most of what you propose here. It certainly seems like a possible view of the future, Ennis’s view of the future anyway. I think your insight into the “Ennis initiated” postcard, versus what were we’re shown earlier as only “Jack initiated” postcards is particularly important. Then there are those words uttered by the sobbing, defeated, and collapsed Ennis as he’s being comforted in the arms of Jack “I can’t stand this anymore Jack” – said by the man who years earlier uttered “if you can’t fix it Jack, you gotta’ stand it”. Now he can’t stand it, so you’re right, maybe he will now (finally) fix it.
For myself this potentiality is part of the great tragedy of the story and what makes it so compelling and endlessly fascinating.
I absolutely love how you put this! It is so meaningful and so overwhelming! :_(