Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: myprivatejack on Mar 05, 2010, 11:43 AM
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We have talked many times about the deepness of Ennis and Jack's love for each other; but we have also talked about what BBM meant for both of them,something very special in its beauty that never came back again in their lives.In the end of their relationship,we have clearly seen a routine,a weariness,maybe a boredom for the circumstances they were obliged to live,specially in Jack's case.So,I'd like to ask you; at what level do you think they were in love completely with each other in the end? Or if you think that what they really loved was the beautiful memory of these happy times spent together,when everything was easy and hopeful and nothing obliged them to separate during months and months?.It's to say; were they projecting somehow the image of these moments into each other,more than into a real person or circumstance?.And I'm not saying that they didn't love each other,but I think also that many of us have lived this circumstance of longing for something or somebody the way they were before,more than the way they are now.I don't know if this makes sense... :-\\
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If I understand the question, MPJ, it's whether were they truly in love all those years, or more like were they in love with the memories of that idyllic summer. IMO, nearly entirely, the love continued off the mountain, and did deepen and mature. But, yes, there was that reference point, always remembered, of that first summer. I hope I didn't misunderstand, and screw up my answer.
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If I understand the question, considering the last scene we see them together, for me it's a reality. Ennis can't deal with Jack's trips to Mexico, Jack telling I wish I knew how to quit you... Well they were madly in love, Ennis wouldn't openly admit it, maybe he was living on a memory. Jack maybe would admit it and for sure was still hoping. Do I make sense?
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MPJ: IMHO I feel the answer to your question is both. I think this probably happens to most people who have long-term relationships of just about any type. Part of it is fact and part is fiction. Like what makes High School reunions more interesting as high school itself gets farther and farther in the past, the memory become more important than the reality.
I was thinking of something similar (I think) when I ask if the Dozy Embrace was fact or fiction, as it is posed as a remembrance of an event twenty years after the fact. Did it really happen, or did Jack just imagine, or very deeply wish, it had happened.
I believe Ennis & Jack were truly deeply in love with each other and with each other’s strength’s and foibles. But I also feel they each were subconsciously drawn to the idea that they fell in love high up on a beautiful mountain, by accident, with a cowboy, someone like themselves. JMHO.
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Very interesting question, mpj. It speaks to the heart of what is the meaning of love. I've always wondered about that, in general, but it is good to address the specific case, to understand and derive the general principles.
I've always thought that love has to do, at some point, with memories of some moment that were important to us. Even subconsciously, we are attracted to someone because they remind us of something or someone in our past. It is also, in my opinion, why true love deepens with time, and not fade or becoming boredom or routine. With time, and more memories, true love becomes more colorful and more dimensional.
I think Ennis and Jack were in love truly with each other, and not just with the memory of that summer on Brokeback Mountain. It is true that the theme of that summer, the camping in the middle of no where, was repeated over and over every year. It is true that Jack held onto those two shirts for twenty years, even though he wanted to start a cow and calf operation. It is true that Ennis held onto a postcard of Brokeback Mountain and the shirts, and dream of returning Jack's ashes to Brokeback Mountain like the way he wanted. As Jack said, all they had left was Brokeback Mountain. But it was not what their love was all about. It was what fear of love fenced them into, away from society where it's no body's business but theirs. If they could, they would have ranched together, and lived a life with more than just Brokeback Mountain.
Although the last few years of their camping became routine, and perhaps even boring (if only for Jack, because he certainly wanted to go somewhere else with Ennis) they were never bored with each other. Even to the end they enjoyed each other, in the tent, by the fire. They wanted to spend all their time together, except Ennis couldn't do more.
No, I believe their love was real and true. They did not grow tired of each other. They just grew bored with the routine of camping in the middle of no where a few times a year. Ennis was happy to continue. He was happy with beans. But Jack wanted more, wanted meat, wanted Mexico, some place warm, any place so he could make more memories with Ennis, so he could love Ennis more. With each new memory, true love grows. That was part of the tragedy, too, that their love was confined, and stifled, in a society where their love had to hide. Love cannot truly blossom into full beauty when it has to hid in dark corners.
It is part of Heath's genius that he turned that last scene into a full testament of love - the memory that never fades, the love that never grows old.
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If I understand the question, considering the last scene we see them together, for me it's a reality. Ennis can't deal with Jack's trips to Mexico, Jack telling I wish I knew how to quit you... Well they were madly in love, Ennis wouldn't openly admit it, maybe he was living on a memory. Jack maybe would admit it and for sure was still hoping. Do I make sense?
Yes....especially with the examples given. I bolded the above, from the original quote, to show where, IMO, the question connects with its answer. I had tried to say the same, but this says it better.
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I hope I understood the question correctly and I'm hopped up on cold meds so I probably shouldn't be attempting to articulate anything ::) but here goes. Well, obviously, it all started up on the mountain but do I think they were always or even partly trying to recapture that? I'd have to say no, simply because the beginning is the 'easiest' for the most part, something you look back on fondly, but to me, it's the day to day (events/struggles/good times) that solidify everything. I don't think they would have kept coming back, year after year, if it wasn't something more than one perfect summer. That was when the seeds were planted and I think you 'just know' deep down inside; something that transcends everything else. Look how many times Jack's idea of ranching up together was turned down. But yet he kept coming back and I don't think it was because he was a rejection junkie. Ennis struggled to accept who he really was (in addition to having horrible memories) and yet he kept coming back and I don't believe that he just liked to torment himself.
I waver at the end of the confrontation scene, probably depending on my mood, about whether or not Jack (had he lived) was going to 'let Ennis go' (for Ennis's sake) or if he'd be back. But either way love would have been at the core of either decision. I think the rejections- external in ranching up and internal of denying who you are, the fear of taking a chance, wore on them to a great extent. How could they not? But the love never died, I think those things helped to make it stronger in a way even though the situations/circumstances weren't ideal. Then there is Jack craving that dozy embrace, to me that's 'normal' because we all have special times we'd like to relive or recreate especially when the bad times hit. I also think, in the beginning, we idealize others just because it's new and 'perfect'. But over time we find out that we're all human with faults and 'flaws' and that's a good thing, imo because if it stays 'perfect' then you don't grow and change together and everything stagnates, which did happen here because Ennis stood on the threshold but never took the step into another life except for small snippets of time and realized much too late that maybe he should have. I guess what I'm trying to say is they loved each other in spite of the restrictions, self imposed or otherwise, and in spite of the fear(s) and that you don't go through all of that out of obligation or chasing what was; it's about the love, which is the driving force and reaching for what could be.
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I have two reflections on the subject.
First, the memory of the happy times spent with each other was a memory of REAL love, and not just romantic illusion. Behind the memory was the true substance of the love they had for each other, and that was what made those moments so memorable and beautiful for both of them, even after so many years.
Second, I have always distinguished between loss of hope and the loss of love -- especially in the case of Jack. Till the very end, his sense of disillusionment was not an admission that his own love for Ennis was an illusion. To put it another way, how many times did a person disappoint us in love even when out love for that person continues to grow and not diminish in the slightest degree?
When we love somebody, it really hurts when that person falls short of that love, in our own estimation. If we loved less, we would hurt less. The great sense of hurt on jack's part reflected his great love for Ennis. To come away from the last meeting with a sense of the hopelessness does not mean that the love for the other is gone. Rather, it reflects on how irrational and paradoxical love can be -- that by losing someone, we invariably set them free, and thereby remain true to that love.
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...how many times did a person disappoint us in love even when out love for that person continues to grow and not diminish in the slightest degree?
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But as someone here said, "Love is blind." or as I like to think, "Love sees only what is good in the beloved, and forgives the blemishes, indeed, thinking the imperfection makes the beloved more lovable."
So, in my opinion, true love sees not disappointments in the beloved, but only opportunities for fulfillment.
Jack waited for twenty years because he kept hoping, and seeing the opportunities, until the final confrontation, when hope turned to despair, and he saw not opportunities but a history of fixed outcome. Jack saw, in that parting view of Ennis driving off in the dusty road, as Dr. Phil said, "Past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior." In a flash, the past twenty years, from the moment of the dozy embrace, came into focus, and Jack realized the unreasonableness of his expectation for Ennis to change. He accepted Ennis for who he was, and gave up on the hope that he would ever come up to Lightning Flat to fix up the ranch. In a way, it was ironic that "I wish I knew how to quit you." was granted on that very day, by recognizing the futility of waiting for the unmovable object to move. And more ironically, just as he gave up after twenty years of waiting, the rock moved. So did Jack truly love Ennis? If he did, would he not waited longer? Did he really give up on Ennis, and move on to Randall?
I don't think the short story, nor the movie, gave a definitive answer. I think it is up to us to interpret as individuals, according to our own sense of how love fits into the story, and our own lives.
As I said, mpj, a very interesting question you asked.
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I waver ......... about whether or not Jack (had he lived) was going to 'let Ennis go' (for Ennis's sake) or if he'd be back.
It's amazing that, after all these years, I can come across something I hadn't seen before, but learn it through these discussion threads. I had never once considered Jack might have tried to move on, for Ennis sake, rather than from his own fatigue.
But, then hadn't Ennis cracked up, and blamed Jack for all those years of being paralyzed, not knowing what to do?
"I wish I knew how to quit you..."
"Well, why don't you....I ain't got nothing....I'm nobody..." (or something to that effect, showing his dilemma).
It had never occurred to me that Jack was giving Ennis his freedom from the dilemma.
But I don't think Jack could have held up. He didn't know how to quit Ennis. I always will believe, they were within months of making some kind of change. Maybe not the ranch Jack wanted. Or Lightning Flat. But something.
Still, I can see how he might just have tried to free Ennis, not knowing, like himself, the ties could not be undone. Till death; and not even then.
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So many interesting takes on this to an interesting question.
Realistically, I don't think love is frozen in time but it progresses. Love must be based on and challenged by reality. I would think that the memory of Brokeback Mountain laid the foundation of their love over the span of 20 years in their relationship and progresses through stages. Unfortunately, it is the reality that brought Jack and Ennis to the final confrontation as tpe eloquently pointed out the hurt in both of them which I agree.
Noted that Ennis and Jack's relationship is very challenging - separated by physical distance and pretty much their interaction was by mails and their fishing trips. In a situation like this, hope or even illusion would come into their love as well. Given the different personality between Ennis and Jack, each could be based on a different ground.
Other than the hurt from Jack's part, we could also find additional evidence from Ennis - his pain and tears in his trailer when he held the two shirts.
When we love somebody, it really hurts when that person falls short of that love, in our own estimation. If we loved less, we would hurt less. The great sense of hurt on jack's part reflected his great love for Ennis. To come away from the last meeting with a sense of the hopelessness does not mean that the love for the other is gone. Rather, it reflects on how irrational and paradoxical love can be -- that by losing someone, we invariably set them free, and thereby remain true to that love.
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If I understand the question, MPJ, it's whether were they truly in love all those years, or more like were they in love with the memories of that idyllic summer. IMO, nearly entirely, the love continued off the mountain, and did deepen and mature. But, yes, there was that reference point, always remembered, of that first summer. I hope I didn't misunderstand, and screw up my answer.
If I understand the question, considering the last scene we see them together, for me it's a reality. Ennis can't deal with Jack's trips to Mexico, Jack telling I wish I knew how to quit you... Well they were madly in love, Ennis wouldn't openly admit it, maybe he was living on a memory. Jack maybe would admit it and for sure was still hoping. Do I make sense?
It's not that both of you have understood or not the question;surely it's that I haven't could explain myself well enough... :-\\
MPJ: IMHO I feel the answer to your question is both. I think this probably happens to most people who have long-term relationships of just about any type. Part of it is fact and part is fiction. Like what makes High School reunions more interesting as high school itself gets farther and farther in the past, the memory become more important than the reality.
I was thinking of something similar (I think) when I ask if the Dozy Embrace was fact or fiction, as it is posed as a remembrance of an event twenty years after the fact. Did it really happen, or did Jack just imagine, or very deeply wish, it had happened.
I believe Ennis & Jack were truly deeply in love with each other and with each other’s strength’s and foibles. But I also feel they each were subconsciously drawn to the idea that they fell in love high up on a beautiful mountain, by accident, with a cowboy, someone like themselves. JMHO.
The best explanation corresponds,much better than me,to Jackster;yes,there's some of both circumstances in their relationship after twenty years.But,on the contrary than you're saying,I haven't declared that part was fact and part is fiction;I don't think that there's anything of fiction of a love that manages to survive during half a life between so many adversities...
However,the most similar to what I meant is this example you put about High School reunions;sometimes we get disappointed when we meet again an old friend after so many years without seeing him/her,but this doesn't mean we aren't friends anymore,isn't it true?...Simply,time flies like an arrow taking with it many hopes,many happiness,bringing to us too many problems and sorrows much often than we'd wish...And what remains then are the good memories of these times when all of us were young,handsome,full with hopes and projects that,often too,remain forgotten in some corner of our hearts.
In the same way,Ennis and Jack-particularly this last one-left too many hopes and happiness behind them and what remained between them were these beautiful memories of the only times when they could be free,happy,themselves in a word.So,again I must put an example you have given;Jack in the last confrontation could think about the DE both for a longing of a happy time that was dead in these bitter momentsbecause it really happenned then or because he would have liked that it had happenned again then.In both cases,I repeat,he longed for it because it didn't happen again anymore;reality and dreams,hopes and memories,what you had and what you have now,...Sometimes,better often,we hang on some memories because we don't like completely what we have in the present .Sorry if I can't make me be understood enough...
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I hope I understood the question correctly and I'm hopped up on cold meds so I probably shouldn't be attempting to articulate anything ::) but here goes. Well, obviously, it all started up on the mountain but do I think they were always or even partly trying to recapture that? I'd have to say no, simply because the beginning is the 'easiest' for the most part, something you look back on fondly, but to me, it's the day to day (events/struggles/good times) that solidify everything. I don't think they would have kept coming back, year after year, if it wasn't something more than one perfect summer. That was when the seeds were planted and I think you 'just know' deep down inside; something that transcends everything else. Look how many times Jack's idea of ranching up together was turned down. But yet he kept coming back and I don't think it was because he was a rejection junkie. Ennis struggled to accept who he really was (in addition to having horrible memories) and yet he kept coming back and I don't believe that he just liked to torment himself.
I waver at the end of the confrontation scene, probably depending on my mood, about whether or not Jack (had he lived) was going to 'let Ennis go' (for Ennis's sake) or if he'd be back. But either way love would have been at the core of either decision. I think the rejections- external in ranching up and internal of denying who you are, the fear of taking a chance, wore on them to a great extent. How could they not? But the love never died, I think those things helped to make it stronger in a way even though the situations/circumstances weren't ideal. Then there is Jack craving that dozy embrace, to me that's 'normal' because we all have special times we'd like to relive or recreate especially when the bad times hit. I also think, in the beginning, we idealize others just because it's new and 'perfect'. But over time we find out that we're all human with faults and 'flaws' and that's a good thing, imo because if it stays 'perfect' then you don't grow and change together and everything stagnates, which did happen here because Ennis stood on the threshold but never took the step into another life except for small snippets of time and realized much too late that maybe he should have. I guess what I'm trying to say is they loved each other in spite of the restrictions, self imposed or otherwise, and in spite of the fear(s) and that you don't go through all of that out of obligation or chasing what was; it's about the love, which is the driving force and reaching for what could be.
Of course,they wouldn't have repeated their meetings during so many years only for the memory of a good summer;the seeds of love were planted during that summer and remained there,more or less hidden inside them,until the water of the encounter made them be born again...As you say,it's the day after day,with its problems and happiness,what solidify a relationship; but also maintaining the hope of seeing this person again to live these happy moments one more time is what keep this relationship alive.Even if we tend to magnify them and,therefore,this person,when what remains are precisely these happy moments because reality is too bitter to stand; it's like a help our brain gives us in order not to become mad before this reality that we don't like.
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When you've been in love with someone for a long time, you do go through stages where sometimes you question things and have ups and downs. That's part of life even in the best of relationships. E & J had if rough because of all the outside circumstances that kept them apart. But, they both kept seeing each other and I do believe if Jack hadn't died would have kept seeing each other. I think we always look back to when we first met someone and those times when you couldn't keep your hands off that one who captured your heart. It always kind of holds a type of magic within if we stay in the relationship for many years. That fondness doesn't die for the early years of just being crazy about each other. As time goes on the love goes through changes but never dies if it was meant to be.
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Just had time to catch up on this thread after a short break of a few days. Thanks everyone. As Ethan had said, so many interesting takes here.
What lance calls opportunities for fulfillment makes me pause and think. I do feel that hope for such opportunities kept Ennis and Jack -- especially Jack -- from not giving up after so many frustrations and disappontments. I don't think this is especially akin to illusion. In a sense, it is a kind of "hyper-reality" -- a feel for the infinite possibilities of love.
Dear heart, why will you use me so?
Dear eyes that gently me upbraid,
Still are you beautiful -- - but O,
How is your beauty raimented!
Through the clear mirror of your eyes,
Through the soft sigh of kiss to kiss,
Desolate winds assail with cries
The shadowy garden where love is.
And soon shall love dissolved be
When over us the wild winds blow -- -
But you, dear love, too dear to me,
Alas! why will you use me so?
-- James Joyce
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Beautiful post as always,Thomas ˇ.RW,is true that loving someone for a long time means having some ups and downs,due to the natural and logical development (and sometimes,wearing down) of life in common.But Ennis and Jack didn't share this life,unluckily,so is not so strange to think that sometimes they had to hang on an illusion,a hope,a dream or however one wants to call it to maintain the relationship and maintain themselves somehow.As Thomas says,very often hoping for some opportunities-that for me,go from the simple fact of seeing each other again to the possibility,even if far,of this sweet life-was for them the best solution for not giving up after so many frustrations and disappointments.
So,I'm not saying that both of them didn't keep on seeing each other had Jack been alive,neither that they couldn't remember the first times they met,nor that their love could have disappear,even wear down.What I meant with this thread is that,being their life as a couple so full with adversities,they needed to live again these happy moments of the beginning of this life as a way of not giving up,even as a way of not falling into a depression.It's also true-demonstrated in RL- that when a couple is living some difficult moments-for whatever reasons it can be...-they remember their happy moments more than is usual; because they need to feel this happiness again in some way,they need to put these times as an example to follow in their present life again,they need to believe it's possible.
I don't know if I have said before-if so,excuse me to repeat myself-that sometimes people live from beautiful memories of their past,from hopes for their future and that,in the middle,they forget to live their present to the fully.Wasn't this what happenned with E&J somehow?Look,few minutes ago I have posted in "BBM recital" this scene where Ennis is carrying to their "fishing trips" some beans to cook then the way they used in the mountain;for me,this example is very clear of what I mean.I keep on not knowing if this makes some sense,nevertheless...
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I don't know, but I think some pople are doomed to live their lives in the past -- because if they lived in the present, it would be too much to bear. Memory is a gentle thing in these cases -- because we can hold on to something that happened in the past, and provides us with some measure of hope.
Hope and memory can go a long way. Hope can't persist without the gentle prodding of memory.
Beautiful post as always,Thomas ˇ.RW,is true that loving someone for a long time means having some ups and downs,due to the natural and logical development (and sometimes,wearing down) of life in common.But Ennis and Jack didn't share this life,unluckily,so is not so strange to think that sometimes they had to hang on an illusion,a hope,a dream or however one wants to call it to maintain the relationship and maintain themselves somehow.As Thomas says,very often hoping for some opportunities-that for me,go from the simple fact of seeing each other again to the possibility,even if far,of this sweet life-was for them the best solution for not giving up after so many frustrations and disappointments.
So,I'm not saying that both of them didn't keep on seeing each other had Jack been alive,neither that they couldn't remember the first times they met,nor that their love could have disappear,even wear down.What I meant with this thread is that,being their life as a couple so full with adversities,they needed to live again these happy moments of the beginning of this life as a way of not giving up,even as a way of not falling into a depression.It's also true-demonstrated in RL- that when a couple is living some difficult moments-for whatever reasons it can be...-they remember their happy moments more than is usual; because they need to feel this happiness again in some way,they need to put these times as an example to follow in their present life again,they need to believe it's possible.
I don't know if I have said before-if so,excuse me to repeat myself-that sometimes people live from beautiful memories of their past,from hopes for their future and that,in the middle,they forget to live their present to the fully.Wasn't this what happenned with E&J somehow?Look,few minutes ago I have posted in "BBM recital" this scene where Ennis is carrying to their "fishing trips" some beans to cook then the way they used in the mountain;for me,this example is very clear of what I mean.I keep on not knowing if this makes some sense,nevertheless...
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I think Ennis was totally in love...
I just watched BBM ...again...and did you notice....when he found the shirts, his plaid shirt was inside, and Jack's dark blue shirt was on the outside...
The last scene where he is in his trailer shows Ennis has reversed them. Jack's shirt is now inside, and the plaid shirt is covering the blue shirt...as if he was hold him....
That is romantic love...Jack seemed to need the physical part more...But, no doubt, he love him, but went looking for the physical part somewhere else...
It seems Jack finally made the decision to taking on a new more convient lover. He had suffered heart aches year after and year and fate had put the rancher right in his reach.
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I don't know, but I think some pople are doomed to live their lives in the past -- because if they lived in the present, it would be too much to bear. Memory is a gentle thing in these cases -- because we can hold on to something that happened in the past, and provides us with some measure of hope.
Hope and memory can go a long way. Hope can't persist without the gentle prodding of memory.
Exactly.And I think that Ennis and Jack-maybe the last one more still...-were of this kind of people; their present arrived to a point when reality was too rough to stand.Yes,memory could be a gentle help in these cases because,at least,remembering happy and beautiful memories help us to carry on,even if sometimes,memories,hopes and realities get mixed and we run the risk of not knowing what is real and what is a memory's result.
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I think Ennis was totally in love...
I just watched BBM ...again...and did you notice....when he found the shirts, his plaid shirt was inside, and Jack's dark blue shirt was on the outside...
The last scene where he is in his trailer shows Ennis has reversed them. Jack's shirt is now inside, and the plaid shirt is covering the blue shirt...as if he was hold him....
That is romantic love...Jack seemed to need the physical part more...But, no doubt, he love him, but went looking for the physical part somewhere else...
It seems Jack finally made the decision to taking on a new more convient lover. He had suffered heart aches year after and year and fate had put the rancher right in his reach.
I do think that Jack was totally in love too,what's more; he was more in love with Ennis than viceversa,or at least,he was able to demonstrate it more than Ennis.All his life was his lover,all his life was moving around him...The fact that he needed or not the physical part more is for me only an anecdote;some persons have a greater libido or,simply,need more of the physical love as a way to show how much they care.But for me,Jack's sexual adventures were only a way of relieving himself,and even to run from Ennis,from his obsessive memories and his great need of him.
The relationship with Randall?...well,I think every one of us can think differently about;in my case,I also think he was more another running away from Ennis because their relationship had almost arrived to a point of non-return than a real partner-and less still a real love-for Jack.Each one of us has one's own way to show one's love,needs,fears and wishes,and no one of them is better than the others,IMHO.
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Exactly.And I think that Ennis and Jack-maybe the last one more still...-were of this kind of people; their present arrived to a point when reality was too rough to stand.Yes,memory could be a gentle help in these cases because,at least,remembering happy and beautiful memories help us to carry on,even if sometimes,memories,hopes and realities get mixed and we run the risk of not knowing what is real and what is a memory's result.
I do think that both of them clung too much to a vision from the past, and forgot or gave up on a vision for the present/future. Jack had the right idea, in that he projected a vision of a life with ennis that he could aspire to. But alas, he let Ennis's objections -- rooted in fears nurtured in a dark past (i.e., Earl and Rich) -- to get between him and his vision. Alas for both of them...
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But Ennis' objections were the fear of death if someone knew...and Jack is proof that Ennis was right....
I think we all know Ennis could not stand the idea of Jack being with someone else...it wasn't the thought of him being with a foreigner that bother him, but what he was doing with that foreigner...He reacted just like the men who kill Jack...
So the writer let us know Ennis would never tolerate Jack being with someone else...
But Jack make arrangements, knowing this, to be with someone else...
Jack gets killed for not being discrete which is what Brokeback Mountain was about....very discrete...
Let's face it, Jack went astray. (t) (t) (t)
Jack had two lovers...and when Ennis disappointed him one more time, he quit him and moved on to the other.
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But Ennis' objections were the fear of death if someone knew...and Jack is proof that Ennis was right....
I think we all know Ennis could not stand the idea of Jack being with someone else...it wasn't the thought of him being with a foreigner that bother him, but what he was doing with that foreigner...He reacted just like the men who kill Jack...
So the writer let us know Ennis would never tolerate Jack being with someone else...
But Jack make arrangements, knowing this, to be with someone else...
Jack gets killed for not being discrete which is what Brokeback Mountain was about....very discrete...
Let's face it, Jack went astray. (t) (t) (t)
Jack had two lovers...and when Ennis disappointed him one more time, he quit him and moved on to the other.
Yes,Ennis objections were to avoid being killed;but we have could see also that,at the end,what he had feared happenned.So he had denied to Jack-and to himself-the opportunity to be happy during half his life to avoid something that ended being real;same end,but at least they would have been living together what could have been a dream and was a nightmare that lasted 20 years.Sometimes is better to throw oneself to the pool without thinking so much,don't you think so?...
Knowing this,I don't think that Jack "made arrangements" to be with someone else without Ennis knowledge;in his way,he was faithful until he realised he wasn't going to obtain from Ennis nothing more than "two high altitude f***s once or twice a year".You must bear in mind that his first adventure was after Ennis rejection when divorced; and his second adventure-or the 25.000th,but the second in being with someone he was going to see again-was at the end of his life,when he was clearly bittered for so many years of waiting without hope.Maybe he was more in love with this hope,an illusion,a memory-as this thread's tittle-than with the rough reality...
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This is true -- but remember that his fear of death was rooted in the dark past: the story of Earl and Rich, as I mentioned in my previous post.
But Ennis' objections were the fear of death if someone knew...and Jack is proof that Ennis was right....
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I have a tendency to push for a perfect love affair betwee Jack and Ennis....But actually, we have no idea if the Jack/Rancher's thing was just as good or maybe better....Try thinking of Brad Pitt as the Rancher and the two never having conflict. - always there for each other - not just twice a year ...and then it would appear Jack did the right thing...
But Ang, as a marvelous director...DIRECTS us to what he want to to think. He makes us care about Ennis by showing us him being turned inside out about this unexpected love...We ache for Ennis...We have someone to root for...He deserves more in life, and his only happiness is Jake....
And these basically are why this was made into a movie, the plot twists of knowing Jack had ideas of moving on...we are devastated for Ennis...and Jack dieing....we are devastated for Ennis...
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I don't know, but I think some pople are doomed to live their lives in the past -- because if they lived in the present, it would be too much to bear. Memory is a gentle thing in these cases -- because we can hold on to something that happened in the past, and provides us with some measure of hope.
Hope and memory can go a long way. Hope can't persist without the gentle prodding of memory.
It's been a while since I was in this thread and visiting again today, I found this interesting bit. The role of memory in hope, and how memory affects the present.
In the context of falling in love with the memories of love, instead of loving the person in the present, this is intriguing. Are we asking if love is merely the memory of the moment that we shared, however brief or sustained? Certainly Japanese studies have been shown that people find beauty, or attraction to others from a kind of collective memory of the average expectation. The most attractive faces are those that are the most averaged, with specific patterns of exaggerations that stay within the normal of "average." We also individually find someone to be attractive if the person reminds us of someone else in our past, who were part of fond memories. Perhaps this is what leads to hope of a repeat performance with the new person.
I am not sure I agree with this when applied to Ennis. Perhaps it may be true of Jack, with his looking for Ennis in a Mexican alley or in his neighbour, or the rodeo clown - all tall lanky fellows, especially the ones wearing white cowboy hats. With Ennis, on the other hand, there is only steadfast one-man love. The memory of Brokeback Mountain is not about the hope of re-living it, since Jack was already dead and cremated. There is no hope. But the memory was a way to hold on to what was treasured, even if temporarily in a dream. Ennis was living in the past because he knew painfully that he let slipped the many opportunities for the sweet life that Jack offered. He was trying to undo what he did, by living out his regrets in his dreams. "This Kurt...does he love you?" ... like my Jack loved me? Memories are not always gentle and soothing, but also sharply painful when it carries with it regret. "Jack, I swear." was more than a declaration of love, it was a solemn apology and promise to never let slip another opportunity.
Were they in love with the memories of Brokeback Mountain, with each other, with the hope of repeating what they had, with an illusion?
Perhaps for four years, they were in love with their memories, but from the reunion onward, there is no doubt that they were in love with each other. Lying there by the river looking up to heaven, lying there in Motel Siesta in Jack's arms, Ennis was not thinking of the snow or campfire on Brokeback Mountain. He was thinking how sweet it was to have someone who understood him the way he understood Jack. They were two souls that resonated in harmony. Memories are helpful, like memories of other symphonies when listening to great music, but they don't mean the music was in the past. Love is about living in the present, with the loved one. When Jack died, there was only the past, but even then, Ennis managed to look to the future, to find a way to return Jack's ashes to Brokeback Mountain.
Jack may have been in love with the hope of the sweet life, but not just with anyone, with Ennis. That's why he waited all 'em years before talking about Randall, in frustration after the final confrontation. We don't even know for sure if Randall was a serious contender. It may have been just a one-off that spring. We will never know if Jack would go back to talking about Ennis to his old man after that November, if he lived.
No, I don't believe Ennis was in love with just the memories, just the hope of a repeat performance, just some illusions that were not real. They were in love with each other, a love that was born of friendship caught on fire, a friendship that was not expected, but deeply appreciated. They were in love with the person they find in each other, who was respectful of their opinions, perhaps for the first time in their lives. They were in love with the person who they felt, in their guts, were like two gloves fitting each other, two shirts inside one another. Those are no illusions, not just hope for some future dreams. They felt the bonding of two hearts and souls. And yes, memories of those moments kept their love going for four years until the reunion, prompted Ennis to take those steps two and three a time to bone crush Jack at the bottom of it all, the kiss that later caused all that trouble. Memories are what life is made of, one moment at a time, but love is more than memories.
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It's been a while since I was in this thread and visiting again today, I found this interesting bit. The role of memory in hope, and how memory affects the present.
In the context of falling in love with the memories of love, instead of loving the person in the present, this is intriguing. Are we asking if love is merely the memory of the moment that we shared, however brief or sustained? Certainly Japanese studies have been shown that people find beauty, or attraction to others from a kind of collective memory of the average expectation. The most attractive faces are those that are the most averaged, with specific patterns of exaggerations that stay within the normal of "average." We also individually find someone to be attractive if the person reminds us of someone else in our past, who were part of fond memories. Perhaps this is what leads to hope of a repeat performance with the new person.
I am not sure I agree with this when applied to Ennis. Perhaps it may be true of Jack, with his looking for Ennis in a Mexican alley or in his neighbour, or the rodeo clown - all tall lanky fellows, especially the ones wearing white cowboy hats. With Ennis, on the other hand, there is only steadfast one-man love. The memory of Brokeback Mountain is not about the hope of re-living it, since Jack was already dead and cremated. There is no hope. But the memory was a way to hold on to what was treasured, even if temporarily in a dream. Ennis was living in the past because he knew painfully that he let slipped the many opportunities for the sweet life that Jack offered. He was trying to undo what he did, by living out his regrets in his dreams. "This Kurt...does he love you?" ... like my Jack loved me? Memories are not always gentle and soothing, but also sharply painful when it carries with it regret. "Jack, I swear." was more than a declaration of love, it was a solemn apology and promise to never let slip another opportunity.
Lance,you always explain even the most humble and simple facts with a magnificence that revalues them ˇ :clap: Well,even if I'm not able to compare myself with you,I'll try to give my opinion:I'm not asking if love is the memory of the moments we shared(maybe the love of the love we had or still have?).No,what I asked is if maybe our boys,more specially Jack,maintained a love enlarged and increased by memories of these times they were free for feeling and living it.It's well known that when we're not happy with our present and,even,with out future,we tend to live in the past,when this has been pleasant and loving and,above all,it's not here anymore.And I'm not sure if I can agree with you in that this theory of yours couldn't be applied to Ennis and only to Jack,because he,more still than his lover,could perfectly miss the good times where he wasn't slave of what others had teached him,and of his consequent fears and phobias.He knew for sure that even the Jack of BBM wasn't the Jack whom he could meet once or twice a year,although he asked him for living this sweet life together almost until the very last moment.JMHO
Were they in love with the memories of Brokeback Mountain, with each other, with the hope of repeating what they had, with an illusion?
Perhaps for four years, they were in love with their memories, but from the reunion onward, there is no doubt that they were in love with each other. Lying there by the river looking up to heaven, lying there in Motel Siesta in Jack's arms, Ennis was not thinking of the snow or campfire on Brokeback Mountain. He was thinking how sweet it was to have someone who understood him the way he understood Jack. They were two souls that resonated in harmony. Memories are helpful, like memories of other symphonies when listening to great music, but they don't mean the music was in the past. Love is about living in the present, with the loved one. When Jack died, there was only the past, but even then, Ennis managed to look to the future, to find a way to return Jack's ashes to Brokeback Mountain.
Jack may have been in love with the hope of the sweet life, but not just with anyone, with Ennis. That's why he waited all 'em years before talking about Randall, in frustration after the final confrontation. We don't even know for sure if Randall was a serious contender. It may have been just a one-off that spring. We will never know if Jack would go back to talking about Ennis to his old man after that November, if he lived.
No, I don't believe Ennis was in love with just the memories, just the hope of a repeat performance, just some illusions that were not real. They were in love with each other, a love that was born of friendship caught on fire, a friendship that was not expected, but deeply appreciated. They were in love with the person they find in each other, who was respectful of their opinions, perhaps for the first time in their lives. They were in love with the person who they felt, in their guts, were like two gloves fitting each other, two shirts inside one another. Those are no illusions, not just hope for some future dreams. They felt the bonding of two hearts and souls. And yes, memories of those moments kept their love going for four years until the reunion, prompted Ennis to take those steps two and three a time to bone crush Jack at the bottom of it all, the kiss that later caused all that trouble. Memories are what life is made of, one moment at a time, but love is more than memories.
Of course,here I should say that if we're in love with the memories of what was real and maybe it's not anymore,it's because we're in love with that person.If not,it would be one of these memories of our past life that come to our mind from time to time but without a real effect in our mind and soul.Of course,I was talking about the last years of their relationship,where hopes were further than never before.And I tend to believe firmly that during these first four years,they were in love,not maybe with their memories,but with each other.They had done "what they had to do"-according to society's rules-:marry and have children,.like a "normal man " should do...But I really think they were in love with each other,and that they had been in love during these four years,even if unconsciously;they felt in love on the mountain with the strength of two young men whom almost nobody had given the affection they needed during their childhood.And that had arrived to the youth with these need too but adding all the desire and the lust of a non satisfied sexual intercourse.And I do believe that this love continued along the years,but I'd add too that in the end,when there was no hope,they were almost obliged to live from these memories of the times when there was still some hope,some freedom or/and some strength more to overcome difficulties.Yes,you're right:love is more than memories.I haven't ever said the contrary...But maybe their love in their older years had a shade;the shade of hanging on the good old times in order not to loosing all the beauty.I don't know if all this can make any sense... :-\\
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Grazias mpj. You are always too generous to give me too much credit. I only write what I feel, inspired by the love on Brokeback Mountain, and here. If I say anything useful, it is only because of you all, and the source of the love, our beloved Brokeback Mountain.
I think someone else talked about the evolutionary or changing nature of love in a relationship, in a marriage. Whether love consists of the memories we share, so that in our old age, we see in each other, not the old shriveled up wrinkles but the youthful vitality of yesteryear, and still love as deeply as ever, I can only speculate. I suspect humans can see both the youthful memory and the aged reality, and respond with the same, yet different love, at the same time. We are more than the single-tasked logical computers who can only evaluate true or false. We can appreciate old AND young, simultaneously. That's uniquely human.
The love between Ennis and Jack certainly evolved over the twenty years that they knew each other, but it is not just the memories, just the hope for a sweet future, but the totality of their friendship which started on Brokeback Mountain, and their passion for each other, and their yearning for each other when apart. Love is not a solitary experience. It requires the presence of the beloved for consummation. Without it, it is only one-sided love, unrequited love, love of a memory, of an illusion. Perhaps that is what we are attempting to say, that when Ennis and Jack were apart from each other, their love was one-sided, and could not be consummated until they meet again. This is especially poignant for Ennis after Jack died. His love was then limited to dreams of Jack, and memories of the time they shared. :(
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It's great to come back and see insightful new threads. I don't think I can add anything that hasn't already been said. I do believe Ennis and Jack were still in love with each other towards the end. Their last meeting with each other couldn't have been so emotionally charged had their feelings for each other died over the years. I do believe that Summer on Brokeback was a memory that helped keep them bonded. They never forgot how they were brought together or how special that time was. Perhaps more couples would be willing to make things work if they didn't forget what brought them together in the first place.
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It's great to come back and see insightful new threads. I don't think I can add anything that hasn't already been said. I do believe Ennis and Jack were still in love with each other towards the end. Their last meeting with each other couldn't have been so emotionally charged had their feelings for each other died over the years. I do believe that Summer on Brokeback was a memory that helped keep them bonded. They never forgot how they were brought together or how special that time was. Perhaps more couples would be willing to make things work if they didn't forget what brought them together in the first place.
I quote this last phrase of yours absolutely ˇ :clap: And I'd add if couples were able to recover somehow this "sparkle" that joined them in their first moments,even if a little different because this time of "champagne bubbles"( >:D ;) ) evolves towards a calmer and more lodged feeling.Who knows if precisely this was what maintained Ennis and Jack's love alive during their rough and painful relationship; their memories of a better time when they felt free to love each other without fear...Jack because he was waiting for Ennis and,consequently,for their "sweet life together" for twenty years and Ennis because he was fighting against himself to recover these moments and give him this life,even if he knew he couldn't,during these twenty years too.
As a matter of fact,doesn't all this mean maybe living from some beautiful memories,from some hopes,from some illusions from the past?.And that all this was what made them stand their situation better,because they wanted to come back to BBM,not as a physical place,but as a whole,as their happy Arcadia?.I'm not talking about their lack of love in their last years,no,no;I take it for granted,for their last reunion and thousands of little details.But I repeat that,often,when present situation is not as good as we wished,remembering how we felt,the way we were,and the wish of living it all again is what makes us stand without leaving.And both Jack and Ennis-each one for their own reasons-needed all this very,very much...Unluckily. :_(
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Coming back to this not so old thread,would you say that-letting aside the love that,doubtless,they felt for each other-Ennis lived from memories of the past and Jack lived from hopes-even if each time more and more blurred-for the future?.I mean,that they "orned" their love with these situations for making their lives a little more pleasant? Seeing that they weren't going to live this "sweet life" in their present times...
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In my oponion both are really always loved.
I believe that the thing perpetual their love how in the beginning it's the separation almost constant during 20 years. It is the distance that gives force the love, one of the greatnesses of BBM.
How chameau said, it's enough watching the last meeting: Ennis goes tremendously jealous and Jack, when sees Ennis desperate and crying, quickly goes to console to him, Jack cannot see suffering her love .
Even when old Twist speaks about Jack's neighbor from Texas, Ennis containing tears, doesn't get upset, isn't bothered, even tries to smile: THAT WAS MY JACK!