Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: haveacrush on Jul 19, 2011, 02:10 PM
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Jack and Alma.. rather Jack vs Alma what do you think guys ? Ennis never had a problem with Lureen.
Jack was never comfortable with the topic Alma even before Ennis got married to her
Remember the scene Alma looking out of the window, holding her child.. Jack standing near his vehicle in a rather "killing" sensuous pose .. no match , Alma cried
did she feel challenged ? pitted against a competitor she was not ready for
Jack came to meet Ennis after his divorce and the whole scene
For Jack Alma was the "other woman" in his man's life and fro Alma Jack the "other man (!) " ... for Alma it was much more than that, it was as if her world had been torn apart and the unholy has happened.
How would you describe this unequal and strange rivalry
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I would imagine that Jack was jealous and resentful towards her, because Ennis stayed with her for about nine years after Jack came back into Ennis's life and asked him to live with him. Ennis tried to do right by her as a man despite his true feelings, and I'm sure it was a cover for his real reluctance to live with Jack - his fear that Jack would get hurt if they lived open. He probably didn't want to acknowledge how fearful he was for Jack's safety (I ain't queer) so Alma and the girls gave him a good cover. Jack must have been resentful towards Alma for this :s)
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Before Jack became Ennis' lover Alma was in the picture. Ennis talked about them getting married when he came down off the mountain. So for Jack she was already there in his mind, his rival. Lureen came along much later after they parted and Ennis was already married with kids. Also Alma knew about Jack and that he was much more than a buddy to Ennis when she saw them kissing. This was before Ennis even introduced them. So that set everything in stone, they would always be at odds even though I guess they never saw each other again. Lureen didn't know until Jack had died. She had always thought Ennis was Jack's fishing and hunting buddy. And Ennis accepted Jack's marriage to her since she really wasn't a rival to him. Now another man and Jack, that was a whole different ball game to him.
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Before Jack became Ennis' lover Alma was in the picture. Ennis talked about them getting married when he came down off the mountain. So for Jack she was already there in his mind, his rival. Lureen came along much later after they parted and Ennis was already married with kids. Also Alma knew about Jack and that he was much more than a buddy to Ennis when she saw them kissing. This was before Ennis even introduced them. So that set everything in stone, they would always be at odds even though I guess they never saw each other again. Lureen didn't know until Jack had died. She had always thought Ennis was Jack's fishing and hunting buddy. And Ennis accepted Jack's marriage to her since she really wasn't a rival to him. Now another man and Jack, that was a whole different ball game to him.
Yup.
There's a passage in Two Crows Joy, when Ennis and Jack are in Lightning Flat, where Jack tells Ennis he's been with other guys. Ennis admits it's different than when he was with Lureen, because he was expected by society to be with a woman. But with men, it was something he wanted to do, rather than what he had to do. Even though that's fanfiction, I still think it's a plausible explanation for why Ennis is never jealous of Lureen, or even when Jack talks about the ranch foreman's, ahem, wife. :-\\ But when he finds out about Mexico he loses it.
I think Ennis felt that the whole thing about sleeping with another guy was his and Jack's thing, their own thing between them that shouldn't include anyone else. When Ennis finds out in canon that Jack's played away, he feels threatened because it's with guys. And deep down he's scared of losing Jack to someone else, and this manifests in true Ennis fashion: aggression and threats :-\\
And don't forget, Ennis still thinks that he and Jack are straight, despite their relationship, so when he finds out about Mexico, I think he realises that for Jack, at least, that may not be entirely true, and he doesn't like it. "I hear what they got in Mexico for boys like you", a lot of emphasis on the "you".
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Jack and Alma.. rather Jack vs Alma what do you think guys ? Ennis never had a problem with Lureen.
Jack was never comfortable with the topic Alma even before Ennis got married to her
Remember the scene Alma looking out of the window, holding her child.. Jack standing near his vehicle in a rather "killing" sensuous pose .. no match , Alma cried
did she feel challenged ? pitted against a competitor she was not ready for
Jack came to meet Ennis after his divorce and the whole scene
For Jack Alma was the "other woman" in his man's life and fro Alma Jack the "other man (!) " ... for Alma it was much more than that, it was as if her world had been torn apart and the unholy has happened.
How would you describe this unequal and strange rivalry
I think that if Ennis never had a problem with Lureen is because she was the perfect cover before society; as a matter of fact,Jack had got married,what "a real man must do",according to Ennis point of view.And if,on the contrary,Jack always had a problem with Alma is,first,because he has a much greater acceptation of who and how he was,including somehow his homosexuality.And,at the same time,he knew for sure that Ennis hadn't it to the same extent (to no extent,I'd say...),so from the divorce scene onwards,he took for granted that always he was going to have a woman as a rival,be this Alma or another one.For me this is the main point of the different acceptation of their respective partners they had.
Before Jack became Ennis' lover Alma was in the picture. Ennis talked about them getting married when he came down off the mountain. So for Jack she was already there in his mind, his rival. Lureen came along much later after they parted and Ennis was already married with kids. Also Alma knew about Jack and that he was much more than a buddy to Ennis when she saw them kissing. This was before Ennis even introduced them. So that set everything in stone, they would always be at odds even though I guess they never saw each other again. Lureen didn't know until Jack had died. She had always thought Ennis was Jack's fishing and hunting buddy. And Ennis accepted Jack's marriage to her since she really wasn't a rival to him. Now another man and Jack, that was a whole different ball game to him.
Exactly ¡ The fact that Alma knew everything is something that clearly could have an influence not only in her relationship with her husband,but even in the relationship between the two men.And the fact that Jack knew about Alma from the first time they were together and alone on the mountain,of course that had this influence too ¡.It's a very different situation than the fact that Jack married Laureen some years after; she was only a cover,not a rival who fight against. %( Ennis accepted this without any problems,but,as you say,knowing that Jack could be with another man,was also a different point...He knew that his lover couldn't really love another woman without the feeling she was another cover; but it was rather more possible that he could love another man,or at least,comparing him with Ennis.They would fight "with the same weapons",to call it somehow...
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Yup.
There's a passage in Two Crows Joy, when Ennis and Jack are in Lightning Flat, where Jack tells Ennis he's been with other guys. Ennis admits it's different than when he was with Lureen, because he was expected by society to be with a woman. But with men, it was something he wanted to do, rather than what he had to do. Even though that's fanfiction, I still think it's a plausible explanation for why Ennis is never jealous of Lureen, or even when Jack talks about the ranch foreman's, ahem, wife. :-\\ But when he finds out about Mexico he loses it.
I think Ennis felt that the whole thing about sleeping with another guy was his and Jack's thing, their own thing between them that shouldn't include anyone else. When Ennis finds out in canon that Jack's played away, he feels threatened because it's with guys. And deep down he's scared of losing Jack to someone else, and this manifests in true Ennis fashion: aggression and threats :-\\
And don't forget, Ennis still thinks that he and Jack are straight, despite their relationship, so when he finds out about Mexico, I think he realises that for Jack, at least, that may not be entirely true, and he doesn't like it. "I hear what they got in Mexico for boys like you", a lot of emphasis on the "you".
You're completely right ¡ This is the greatest difference: what one wants to do and what has to do ¡ With the Mexico stuff,he's afraid of losing Jack because he could,even,fall for some other men;as I say in the former post,that man would be a real rival,somebody who could obtain from Jack something more than a simple hide away before society's rules and intolerance.For me,this is a very different situation that requires a very different reaction..Without forgetting the fact that for him,yes,their feelings were "nobody's bussinness but theirs"; not homosexual,not heterosexual,even not bisexual,but Ennisexual or Jacksexual (a very good definition that somebody wrote here long time ago).He knew,however,that this definition went much more away in Jack's case,but he didn't dare to say the name; for this reason,,he puts the emphasis in "boys like you",as if it had nothing to do with himself...