Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: lancecowboy on Mar 20, 2012, 09:31 PM
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I don't remember if anyone covered this topic. If there is another thread existing already, I trust our moderators will magically merge this to it. If not, here goes.
Forever raised a very good question in her thread, Was Ennis a homophobic person?
http://www.ennisjack.com/forum/index.php?topic=16904.0 (http://www.ennisjack.com/forum/index.php?topic=16904.0)
The question was, whether the love of Ennis was perfect, or true, since Ennis did not change from his homophobia to be with Jack, as true love would change someone perfectly.
It occurs to me that there are a number of questions nested within this one, and a number of issues that need addressing. Firstly, I am sure that like beauty, love is in the eye of the beholder, and there will be diverse answers to these questions, depending on each person's perspective. It won't be easy to explore these answers. Then again, as Kevin said to Scotty in Brothers and Sisters, easy isn't always good. Difficult can be good. As Scott Peck said of pseudo-communities, they seek easy answers and avoid the difficult ones to maintain a veneer of civility, but by doing so, miss the opportunities to explore the deeper dimensions of human relationships. True communities can disagree on difficult questions, and still find grace and the deeper meaning with each other.
I think Brokeback Mountain is a tragedy and without a happy ending because it is not about true love between two men; rather, it is about homophobia and how it twisted their love and shaped their lives. In the end, their love was not enough to overcome homophobia within Ennis, and out there in society.
I think neither Jack nor Ennis has complete, perfect, true love, except when they were up there in Brokeback Mountain, away from society, in the middle of nowhere. But to qualify love in that way is to say that love is not perfect. It is limited to a certain time and space, a specific circumstance.
So a corollary question would be, if their love was not perfect, whose was greater? Jack's love for Ennis, or Ennis's love for Jack? I think there is really no fair comparison but if I have to choose one over another, I'd have to say Ennis's love for Jack was greater. I am sure there are disagreement, so I await for all your responses.
I will explain the reasons for my saying Ennis later, when you all had a chance to decide for yourselves.
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Then again, as Kevin said to Scotty in Brothers and Sisters, easy isn't always good. Difficult can be good. As Scott Peck said of pseudo-communities, they seek easy answers and avoid the difficult ones to maintain a veneer of civility, but by doing so, miss the opportunities to explore the deeper dimensions of human relationships. True communities can disagree on difficult questions, and still find grace and the deeper meaning with each other.
This is great and I wholeheartedly agree. Confrontation is often difficult because it requires effective communication. Otherwise, things would usually just go out of hands.
I think Brokeback Mountain is a tragedy and without a happy ending because it is not about true love between two men; rather, it is about homophobia and how it twisted their love and shaped their lives. In the end, their love was not enough to overcome homophobia within Ennis, and out there in society.
I agree that BBM is a tragic story but disagree that it is not about true love between two men. IMHO, true love should not be limited to happy ending. When Ennis said "Jack I swear," he has realized true love too late. It could have well been that Ennis has overcome homophobia. If so, sadly it took Jack's life for him to realize.
I think neither Jack nor Ennis has complete, perfect, true love, except when they were up there in Brokeback Mountain, away from society, in the middle of nowhere. But to qualify love in that way is to say that love is not perfect. It is limited to a certain time and space, a specific circumstance.
So a corollary question would be, if their love was not perfect, whose was greater? Jack's love for Ennis, or Ennis's love for Jack? I think there is really no fair comparison but if I have to choose one over another, I'd have to say Ennis's love for Jack was greater. I am sure there are disagreement, so I await for all your responses.
True love should be timeless and selfless. For this reason, I don't think neither is greater. For more than 20 years, they both had given each other what they could within constraints, either societal or personal. If it is not true love, I am not sure what it is.
I will explain the reasons for my saying Ennis later, when you all had a chance to decide for yourselves.
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First thing first,I congratulate you,Lance,because your messages always make us think things over,letting aside that they are written with the style of an intellectual. *o) I know,I know,I'm going to the main subject: :h:
I'd begin by saying that love can't be measured;it's not a kilo of potatoes ¡.Like a feeling it is,it only can be felt,Period.After this,it's more or less selfish,possessive,generous or whatever.And I'd add too that love can't be perfect; it's felt and lived by persons and our own imperfection makes become our love imperfect too.Said this,we could say that Jack's love can look like the greater and more perfect,because it was built over denies and rejections and,in spite of this,it kept on being constant,without diminishing.But,on the other side,Ennis love can be seen as the greater and more perfect,because it was built over his own denies and rejections,over his fears,over himself.For me,at this point of my message,I can't decide whether one or another's love is greater... :-\\
Taking Lance's words:I think neither Jack nor Ennis has complete, perfect, true love, except when they were up there in Brokeback Mountain, away from society, in the middle of nowhere. But to qualify love in that way is to say that love is not perfect. It is limited to a certain time and space, a specific circumstance..Seen that way,we could say that,yes,their love was more complete and perfect up there in the mountain,because they were themselves; feeling the way they felt in a deeper and truer way,as they were away from society and its rules,often so rough...But even in this sense,I find something to compare; what about they living their love in the middle,not of nowhere,but of an homophobic and intolerant society? Doesn't this situation transform their love in more perfect,as they must fight against everything and everybody?.For me,it's difficult to declare something in one or another sense...
Finally,I'd said that you,Lance,have taken Ennis love as the greater for one reason (surely it's not yours,but I say it anyway...): Jack was the passive object of Ennis fears and,consequently,of his rejections and denies I talked about before.But Ennis was the active object,to call it somehow; he "obliged" himself to reject something he wished in his innest self,to run away from his lover when he wished to run to him,to live by himself instead of living with the one he loved.He obliged himself to say "no" all the time,when he wished with all his heart(but not with all his mind...) to say "yes".The most difficult situation was his,IMO.So,isn't this a great love=The greater?.I don't know if all this makes sense,but,decide for yourselves... ???
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I agree that BBM is a tragic story but disagree that it is not about true love between two men. IMHO, true love should not be limited to happy ending. When Ennis said "Jack I swear," he has realized true love too late. It could have well been that Ennis has overcome homophobia. If so, sadly it took Jack's life for him to realize.
True love should be timeless and selfless. For this reason, I don't think neither is greater. For more than 20 years, they both had given each other what they could within constraints, either societal or personal. If it is not true love, I am not sure what it is.
In this, I agree with you, Ethan - it IS a story of true love. I would go even further and say it is because of the fatal ending. Their love even had to be "limited to a certain time and space" (in LCB's words). Although we always wish they had their sweet life together (we all do, I guess) … deep inside I could never imagine them living together for 20 years or all their life … and experience how love subsides, little by little. It's simply :-\\ ... that I just can't see them with a love getting into shallow waters. A calm love can still be beautiful and good in certain ways, of course, but … :-\\ I think, their deep felt love has been kept alive because of all adverse circumstances that kept them from being together. They were always longing for each other and all this disappointment and the yearning makes it a true love (story) IMO. I know I'm rather romantically glorified, or dramatically ... Or am I just fatalistic? :-\\
And secondly ... I keep up with you, LCB, that Ennis had the greater love, though I bet you'll invoke different reasons :s) Your question reminded me of my thoughts right after watching BBM and what I posted at the start, as far as I remember - and after nearly three years my opinion on that didn’t change. To me, the most painful point is, that - after Jack’s death - Ennis will NEVER know if Jack’s love faded out. The fact that Jack obviously planned or already started to live with another man is not decisive for this (You can share your live with somebody, even in a relatively pleasant way, while your heart is with someone else, and that’s what we also imply to Jack, isn’t it?) – BUT nevertheless, Ennis will never know FOR SURE after the last confrontation :-\\. The odds are that Jack gave up on him (yet in lifetime!) while Ennis finally tended to give up his fears (even beyond Jack's death!). Maybe this isn't a striking proof that Ennis love was greater but it is significant.
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Lance, I'm so glad to see that I gave you new food for the thought! Ennis love greater than Jack's love, I thought WHAT ? that can't be true! But then I read the post of MPJ saying that maybe Ennis's love was the greatest rightly because he was in self-denial, his whole body and heart crying YES, desperately YES to Jack, to his love, ready to take his hand and fly together ( The breakdown of Ennis in the alleyway show me that) and sadly his stoic mind repeating again and again, NO, two man in love living together no way! >:( Makes me suddenly think of captain Haddock in tintin, with on one side the little good angel and the other side the bad one telling him that only one drop of more whiskey can't be bad for his health! ;D
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First, thank you for great posts, very interesting ideas!
I think that it's a true love that Ennis and Jack shared, it was not a perfect love but it was a real one. To me it's the most beautiful love story because it happened instead of the constraints of the society, even if it's these constraints that prevent their love to be lived fully, even if their love was hidden and was "perfect" only on Brokeback Mountain. It was the love of a lifetime.
I don't know whose love was the greater... Jack devoted his life trying to be with Ennis, and loved him despite Ennis refused the "sweet life" again and again. This is a great love. But on the other hand, we see that Ennis is uncapable of loving anyone else than Jack, and he is uncapable to consider a love story with Cassie. He have Jack in his heart, and only Jack. He is his only love, the love of his life, even if his mind doesn't accept that love... As Mpj said, "Ennis love can be seen as the greater and more perfect,because it was built over his own denies and rejections,over his fears,over himself". Beautifully said, and I tend to agree with that.
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Thank you to all your kind words and thoughtful responses. :ghug: ^f^
Here is the reason for my question, and what I thought. You all can decide how much we share and what parts we disagree. I think the greatness of Brokeback Mountain is in part, its ambiguity, representing to different people a different perspective of love. We don't have to see the same facet of love to see the gem that it is.
I think Ennis's love is greater, not because it can be quantified or measured, but simply because it is the one and constant love, against Ennis's own fears, and in the end, it triumphed over those fears.
Jack loved Ennis and was patient for twenty years. He couldn't quit him, not even in the end, when he wanted to have the ranch foreman over. That love is great and admirable. But then again, we are told that Jack rode more than bulls during his rodeo days, and surely did the same before their reunion. Even after the reunion, there were his trips to Mexico. Ennis was rightly angry when he found out in the final confrontation. He assumed Jack was like himself, happy with beans, and the few times a year in the middle of nowhere. He was shocked to the core when he found out Jack needed more, and looked for more elsewhere. Ennis divorced Alma, in my opinion, sabotaged it subconsciously because he loved Jack so much, yet unwilling to accept it either. After the divorce, all he did was sit and drink in the bar until Cassie seduced him. And even in that relationship, he was only in it half-heartedly, not the marrying kind. He never loved Alma nor Cassie, and admittedly neither did Jack love his Mexican rendez-vous nor the ranch foreman, but Ennis didn't seek out the women, whereas Jack sought out his men. Perhaps it speaks less of the quality of their love, and more of their character, self-discipline. I guess it depends on how you view the connection between love and character.
His love for Jack transformed Ennis as much as his fears allowed him. He smiled and talked and played like he never did, all the while staying true to his character. His love completed him, and eventually healed him.
Jack's love for Ennis transformed him, too, in some ways, but not in others. He became more of a father for Bobby, more responsible, and more confident. Yet, it did not heal the loneliness that plagued him, that fed his desire to ride more than bulls. Like Scotty said in Brothers and Sisters to Kevin about faithfulness, you cannot be faithful until you know what to be faithful for.
It is true that Jack loved Ennis despite all the difficulties, driving 14 hours each way, waiting for twenty years. But Ennis also sacrificed for Jack, dropping everything whenever Jack came calling, even asking for favors from friends like Don Wroe, to have a cabin. In that regard, they are a good match, both willing to give of themselves for the other. It reflects what they did for each other up there in Brokeback Mountain. They were a team.
But in the end, the true love is revealed in Ennis, holding a candle for Jack, for the remainder of his life, with nothing but a postcard and two shirts. Unlike Jack, Ennis did not need anything more, not the cow and calf operation, not some place warm like Mexico, not more than a few times a year. All Ennis needed, was to know that he was loved. Finding 'em two shirts tucked in the corner of the closet, hidden for twenty years, was all he needed to break free from his fears. Girls don't fall in love for fun. Apparently, neither do cowboys. Ennis loved that Jack loved him. That was all he needed. That was enough for him to stay faithful, for the rest of his life. Jack waited for twenty years, and may even wait longer if he had lived. Ennis will wait for as long as it takes, will remember for as long as he lives. Some love till death do they part. Ennis loved long after death separated him from Jack. That's the love that never ends.
I love this place because no matter how long I have been away, coming back is always like never leaving. A few posts, a few questions, and I am back in full PBS. :( :_( Time for another time out. :cr) :c)
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Lance, your post is beautiful. ^f^
PBS... Once it grabs you, it never leaves you... for the best and the worst! <^( :_(
Thanks to everyone for sharing your thoughts! It's a pleasure to be here with sensitive and loving people.
:ghug:
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Lance, I read your post you are saying that maybe the love of Ennis was the greatest because he was more faithful than jack, did I get your point ? I tend to disagree unless I misunderstood you, Don't forget that Jack stayed faithful at least one year until the next summer, when he found out that Ennis didn't show up, he may have had doubts about Ennis, about his love. Don't forget that each time Jack was rejected, he tried to fulfill his physical needs with substitute, ( Mexican hustler, Randall), rightly because he needed Ennis so much in his life. He had to fulfill the void that Ennis didn't give him ( a whole life). I don't think that Jack was less faithful, he was faithful in his heart for 20 years; and I don't think that his physical needs were higher than Ennis, Jack was not repressed like Ennis, he was not in self-denial. When Ennis wanted to make love to Jack, masturbation was enough, maybe it was enough for Jack too the first year, but not after, his longing for Ennis was so strong that he needed a real physical contact, and he chose carefully men who always look like to Ennis. Just my 2 cents of course! :) ( God I have to search every words in my dictionary in order to express my ideas, exhausting!)
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Thank you BBMSheep, not just for the kind compliments but also for being here, contributing to the discussion. I really enjoy this, didn't know how much I missed 'em early days, when the movie was a part of my every waking hour.
No worries, Forever. We don't have to agree, and you did not misunderstand me. I believe, as an article of faith, that true love is faithful, not just once in a while, not just when the circumstances are aligned perfectly, but always, forever.
You are quite right that Jack was faithful in the beginning. We know for certain that the scene after the divorce, when Jack cried his way back to Texas after being rejected by Ennis over his daughters, was the trigger that got Jack going. He just kept on driving after 14 hours, not feeling fulfilled, needing his fix of Ennis.
Did Ennis go find someone after the final confrontation? Did he marry Cassie? On the contrary, he ended the relationship with Cassie, he wrote Jack perhaps for the first time on his initiative rather than the "You bet" in response to Jack's initial passing through town. When true love is denied, it goes into hyper mode, grasping on even more tenaciously. Jack gave up, in despair, granted after a long time, and love is patient, and Jack was patient for many years. As I said, Jack's love is grand and admirable. But it diminished in the face of Ennis's fear, society's obstacles. In a way, we could also see that towards the end, Jack was unhappy with the arrangement. He didn't like the cold; he didn't like doing the same old same old each and every time. Jack was the extrovert who needed excitement, needed variety. He was the one who needed whiskey, and later on, marijuana. He was high maintenance.
On the other hand, Ennis's love was bottled up inside for twenty years, released a few times a year with Jack in the middle of nowhere. He treasured those moments. That's why he was willing to drop anything and everything to be with Jack, as long as it was in the middle of no where. In a way, it was a metaphor for their relationship, going no where. I can see women relating to this commitment phobia more than men. But back to Ennis. He was happy with beans. He was content to be with Jack, anywhere, doing anything. He would have gone on forever meeting Jack whenever he could, bringing his horses so they could explore the wilderness. Perhaps getting into photography. Ennis was the visual listener while Jack was the linguistic talker. Ennis only needed the postcard to remind him of his dreams. Jack needed more than just pictures. He needed stories, of places and dreams where bluebirds sing next to whiskey springs. Jack was the catalyst that made Ennis came alive. He didn't need anything but Jack. Indeed, as he said in the last confrontation, "I am nothing, I am no where. You made me like this." He may have felt despair over Jack's power over him at that moment, but he also realized later, that THAT was the reason why he fell in love with Jack, not for fun, but for being changed. As I said in the last post, it was the transformation of Ennis with Jack's Ma and Jack's shirts that, to me, made his love greater than Jack's.
Jack's love was brilliant in the beginning, passionate and burning bright, but it died and turned into smoldering amber, then to ashes. Ennis's love was tempered and constrained, but releases like fireworks once in a while, sometimes even surprising Alma, and it grew in strength and openness, attracting the sensitive Cassie. In the end, Ennis's love blossomed into fullness embracing Jack's ashes, like the two shirts. Brokeback Mountain is a great story, a great movie, precisely because their love are so different, yet complemented each other.
As I said from the beginning, I don't think we can separate their love, being entwined as they are, but if I have to choose one over another, I'd go for the love that overcame obstacles, that grows, that blossoms, that never ends. Ennis in the trailer with the postcard is the epitome of that faithful undying loyal love forever, always. It may seem pitiful, lonely in poverty; but it is also rich in the heart, where it matters most.
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Well,I understand what you mean and I share it to a certain extent.But,for me,"limiting" Jack's love for,let's say,a simple question of faithfulness or not is diminishing and almost denying its greatness.The greatness of a man's love,a man who was able to fight against society's rules and face intolerance and its dangers for the man he loved,maybe not in an active way,but in a steady way.
It's true that Jack rode something more than bulls before and after their reunion and during their 20 years relationship; but it's also true that Ennis rejection to be with him after his 14 hours driving marked a painful border between that Jack who wrote the post card and that Jack who begun to loose hope.When he told his lover in their final confrontation: I'm not you... I can't make it on a coupla high-altitude fu@s once or twice a year!,he's not only referring to his greater libido.He's referring above all IMO,to the fact that he wants more from Ennis than fu@#$ng with him when duties leave them do it; he wants to awake by his side every morning and get aslept in his arms,he wants to have his passion,but also his company,support,friendship,tenderness...He wants to have HIS LOVE.He wants to HAVE HIM,for him and only for him,all the time,feeling that Ennis wants also this about him.Not being a substitution for masturbation in Ennis lonely life and,firstly and above all,not having the cruel feeling that for Ennis that was enough. :-\\
Because,Lance,you say in your post: Ennis only needed the postcard to remind him of his dreams. Jack needed more than just pictures. He needed stories, of places and dreams where bluebirds sing next to whiskey springs. Jack was the catalyst that made Ennis came alive. He didn't need anything but Jack..Yes,that's true ¡ But Jack also didn't need anything but Ennis ¡ And believe me,one can love somebody with all one's heart,but satisfy one's sexual needs with somepone else in some circumstances without this meaning a decreasing of one's love (and I tell it for own experience...).Ennis was too conformist indeed; as you say,he only needed a postcard to remind him of his dreams.Jack was an inconformist,a rebel; he only needed a postcard to communicate himself,but the postcard of his life needed Ennis and him together in its middle.That's the difference,among many others; I'm not going to talk about politics here,but I'd know where to put each one of them in the political world...
Jack took the initiative once but this became a too heavy burden to carry,because he wanted more in his life,and not only bluebirds singing next to whiskey springs.For Ennis,knowing that he had someone who loved him and whom love was enough,because he didn't want more in his life that what this life wanted to give to him in every moment.However,I understand what you mean in that whereas Jack's love lessened to a certain extent,weakened for so many years of rejections,denies and disappointments,Ennis love was steady and firm,always in spite of himself IMO.But don't forget that this "in spite of himself" was a punishment to Jack during 20 tears,who always pay the consequences of his lover's lack of ambition in what he cherished the most: living life to the fullest and living it with LOVE.This is not a contradiction with what I said in my former letter,about Ennis greater love because he had to live in a constant deny of his feelings and,in spite of this,he kept on loving Jack "his way".This is only two rather different ways of seeing life and living love,that sometimes crashed and sometimes completed them.JMHO.
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As I said in the last post, it was the transformation of Ennis with Jack's Ma and Jack's shirts that, to me, made his love greater than Jack's.
Jack's love was brilliant in the beginning, passionate and burning bright, but it died and turned into smoldering amber, then to ashes. Ennis's love was tempered and constrained, but releases like fireworks once in a while, sometimes even surprising Alma, and it grew in strength and openness, attracting the sensitive Cassie. In the end, Ennis's love blossomed into fullness embracing Jack's ashes, like the two shirts. Brokeback Mountain is a great story, a great movie, precisely because their love are so different, yet complemented each other.
As I said from the beginning, I don't think we can separate their love, being entwined as they are, but if I have to choose one over another, I'd go for the love that overcame obstacles, that grows, that blossoms, that never ends. Ennis in the trailer with the postcard is the epitome of that faithful undying loyal love forever, always. It may seem pitiful, lonely in poverty; but it is also rich in the heart, where it matters most.
In a way, that's exactly what I had in mind when I said *The odds are that Jack gave up on him (yet in lifetime!) while Ennis finally tended to give up his fears (even beyond Jack's death!)* ... unfortunately I often lack the English words to express my thoughts better, even if they are going deeper :-\\ ... You've said it so well again.
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In a way, that's exactly what I had in mind when I said *The odds are that Jack gave up on him (yet in lifetime!) while Ennis finally tended to give up his fears (even beyond Jack's death!)* ... unfortunately I often lack the English words to express my thoughts better, even if they are going deeper :-\\ ... You've said it so well again.
Thanks Brokebacksoul. I've had the loving feedback from this valley of peace and friendship for the past three years 56 months to shape my words. Just you wait till you spend more time here. Your English will improve, too. Practice makes perfect, in languages and in love. ^f^ :c) :cr)
I first wrote three years, but then went back to check my profile registration date, and %&) it is true! Time flies when you're preoccupied...almost five years!
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Thank you BBMSheep, not just for the kind compliments but also for being here, contributing to the discussion. I really enjoy this, didn't know how much I missed 'em early days, when the movie was a part of my every waking hour.
No worries, Forever. We don't have to agree, and you did not misunderstand me. I believe, as an article of faith, that true love is faithful, not just once in a while, not just when the circumstances are aligned perfectly, but always, forever.
You are quite right that Jack was faithful in the beginning. We know for certain that the scene after the divorce, when Jack cried his way back to Texas after being rejected by Ennis over his daughters, was the trigger that got Jack going. He just kept on driving after 14 hours, not feeling fulfilled, needing his fix of Ennis.
Did Ennis go find someone after the final confrontation? Did he marry Cassie? On the contrary, he ended the relationship with Cassie, he wrote Jack perhaps for the first time on his initiative rather than the "You bet" in response to Jack's initial passing through town. When true love is denied, it goes into hyper mode, grasping on even more tenaciously. Jack gave up, in despair, granted after a long time, and love is patient, and Jack was patient for many years. As I said, Jack's love is grand and admirable. But it diminished in the face of Ennis's fear, society's obstacles. In a way, we could also see that towards the end, Jack was unhappy with the arrangement. He didn't like the cold; he didn't like doing the same old same old each and every time. Jack was the extrovert who needed excitement, needed variety. He was the one who needed whiskey, and later on, marijuana. He was high maintenance.
On the other hand, Ennis's love was bottled up inside for twenty years, released a few times a year with Jack in the middle of nowhere. He treasured those moments. That's why he was willing to drop anything and everything to be with Jack, as long as it was in the middle of no where. In a way, it was a metaphor for their relationship, going no where. I can see women relating to this commitment phobia more than men. But back to Ennis. He was happy with beans. He was content to be with Jack, anywhere, doing anything. He would have gone on forever meeting Jack whenever he could, bringing his horses so they could explore the wilderness. Perhaps getting into photography. Ennis was the visual listener while Jack was the linguistic talker. Ennis only needed the postcard to remind him of his dreams. Jack needed more than just pictures. He needed stories, of places and dreams where bluebirds sing next to whiskey springs. Jack was the catalyst that made Ennis came alive. He didn't need anything but Jack. Indeed, as he said in the last confrontation, "I am nothing, I am no where. You made me like this." He may have felt despair over Jack's power over him at that moment, but he also realized later, that THAT was the reason why he fell in love with Jack, not for fun, but for being changed. As I said in the last post, it was the transformation of Ennis with Jack's Ma and Jack's shirts that, to me, made his love greater than Jack's.
Jack's love was brilliant in the beginning, passionate and burning bright, but it died and turned into smoldering amber, then to ashes. Ennis's love was tempered and constrained, but releases like fireworks once in a while, sometimes even surprising Alma, and it grew in strength and openness, attracting the sensitive Cassie. In the end, Ennis's love blossomed into fullness embracing Jack's ashes, like the two shirts. Brokeback Mountain is a great story, a great movie, precisely because their love are so different, yet complemented each other.
As I said from the beginning, I don't think we can separate their love, being entwined as they are, but if I have to choose one over another, I'd go for the love that overcame obstacles, that grows, that blossoms, that never ends. Ennis in the trailer with the postcard is the epitome of that faithful undying loyal love forever, always. It may seem pitiful, lonely in poverty; but it is also rich in the heart, where it matters most.
Woua! Lance your post is really impressive though I had to read it more than 3 times to understand the quintessence of your arguments! Lance, let me think about it I have to assemble my ideas and even in French, my mother language it's not always easy! I feel like Ennis sometimes! My body and my heart know already the answer but not my mind! :)
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Ennis in the trailer with the postcard is the epitome of that faithful undying loyal love forever, always. It may seem pitiful, lonely in poverty; but it is also rich in the heart, where it matters most.
:^^) Thanks for writing this, Lance. That image of Ennis, lonely in his trailer is so painful to me, I just can't stand it sometimes. From now, I will think about this line you wrote, that Ennis is alone, but not in his heart, where Jack is more alive than ever. You are right, it's the most important thing to remember.
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Marijuana ?? Jack ? In the 60's ?? Come on Lance, speak for yourself! You're maybe a sinner, but I haven't got yet the opportunity! ;D
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On the other hand, Ennis's love was bottled up inside for twenty years, released a few times a year with Jack in the middle of nowhere. He treasured those moments. That's why he was willing to drop anything and everything to be with Jack, as long as it was in the middle of no where. In a way, it was a metaphor for their relationship, going no where. I can see women relating to this commitment phobia more than men. But back to Ennis. He was happy with beans. He was content to be with Jack, anywhere, doing anything.He would have gone on forever meeting Jack whenever he could, bringing his horses so they could explore the wilderness. Perhaps getting into photography. Ennis was the visual listener while Jack was the linguistic talker. Ennis only needed the postcard to remind him of his dreams. Jack needed more than just pictures. He needed stories, of places and dreams where bluebirds sing next to whiskey springs. Jack was the catalyst that made Ennis came alive. He didn't need anything but Jack. Indeed, as he said in the last confrontation, "I am nothing, I am no where. You made me like this." He may have felt despair over Jack's power over him at that moment, but he also realized later, that THAT was the reason why he fell in love with Jack, not for fun, but for being changed. As I said in the last post, it was the transformation of Ennis with Jack's Ma and Jack's shirts that, to me, made his love greater than Jack's.
I believe that, that Ennis love was great, that he treasured each time, the few meetings they had over the years, that he was willing to drop anything and everything to meet his lover, but NOT the last time they meet, so what you said about Jack that his love for Ennis diminished the last years because of this unsatisfactory situation, I tend to believe that it was maybe the same for Ennis. If Ennis had not canceled the meeting in august, things would have turned differently between them, and poor Jack would have certainly not been killed :_(
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Concerning the great love of Ennis, I have always wondered what was the profound reason of his refusal for the sweet life proposal, was it because he wanted to protect Jack from homophobic violence, or was it because of his own homophobic tendencies ? Any thoughts ?
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:^^) Thanks for writing this, Lance. That image of Ennis, lonely in his trailer is so painful to me, I just can't stand it sometimes. From now, I will think about this line you wrote, that Ennis is alone, but not in his heart, where Jack is more alive than ever. You are right, it's the most important thing to remember.
:^^) :c) I am glad my words bring you a bit of comfort. It has been said that my reaction to the ending of the movie is very atypical. ::) Perhaps even a bit queer. Instead of the depressive oppressive sadness for most people, the scenes starting from the kitchen in Lightning Flatts, up the stairs with its own rhythm, in the claustrophobic little room, with all the reminders of Jack when he was a boy, and then culminating in the climax in the closet, they may bring tears, but also a sense of liberating releif, closure. I have no idea why I react this way, but it is discussed in another thread.
Marijuana ?? Jack ? In the 60's ?? Come on Lance, speak for yourself! You're maybe a sinner, but I haven't got yet the opportunity! ;D
I think you misunderstood, and missed the little clues in the movie. It was not in the 60's, since they met in '69 or there about. By the end, it would be closer to the 80's. I am rather surprised, Forever, that you ain't had the opportunity, when you live in the land of opportunity. :*( ;) Amsterdam is famous for....?
Woua! Lance your post is really impressive though I had to read it more than 3 times to understand the quintessence of your arguments! Lance, let me think about it I have to assemble my ideas and even in French, my mother language it's not always easy! I feel like Ennis sometimes! My body and my heart know already the answer but not my mind! :)
Thanks again for the kind words, Forever. Take your time responding if you wish, no hurry. And if you wish, feel free to respond in French, I can use Google Translate, and ask you if I have questions understanding any specific phrasing.
Concerning the great love of Ennis, I have always wondered what was the profound reason of his refusal for the sweet life proposal, was it because he wanted to protect Jack from homophobic violence, or was it because of his own homophobic tendencies ? Any thoughts ?
I don't think it was a matter of protecting Jack, specifically, but simply from fear of ending up like Earl. "Two men living together? That just ain't going to happen." That's what I meant in respond to your question regarding Ennis's homophobia. His reaction at the age of nine, to his father's hatred and murderous rage, was etched into his psyche and forever (almost) scarred him with fears that he could not control. It was not about Jack, or anyone else. Before Jack came along, Ennis was closed up tight as can be, shutting out the world as well as shutting in his feelings. Jack and Brokeback Mountain opened up his horizon, beyond the coffee pot looking for the handle. As long as they were in the middle of no where, Ennis could let Jack into his inner world, but no more, nothing else, no one else, no where else.
The miracle was when Ennis met Jack's Ma, and she managed to slip inside that world, from little gestures, touching his shoulders, little phrases like cherry cake? It's clear where Jack got his people skills, not from his Pa, that's for d@ng sure.
Don't mind me if I happen to be absent for a while. As I said, sometimes PBS is just a bit too much for me, and I just have to escape into a happier frame of mind. Enjoy your new found Brokeback Mountain. Feel free to use the cabin and make yourself at home. Just put things back where you found them, and mind the animals. :c) :h:
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Sorry Lance! It's true I misunderstood the decency, you said ' and later on ' Didn't dare to try too scared of the side effect! :)
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Lance said : That Ennis was willing to drop anything and everything to be with Jake, as long as it was in the middle of no where, that each time he treasured those moments. So why did he canceled the meeting in Augustus ? Jack said that Ennis used to come easily before, but that now it was like seeing the Pope. Anny suggestions ?
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I agree with Lance in that Ennis would like to have been with Jack more times and during more time; for me the fact of being in the middle of nowhere gave him the feeling of being safer,that's for sure.His kind of paranoia didn't allow him to show himself going out with another man in the open,and the divorce scene is a clear example.I have said in another post that he would have loved sharing this sweet life together with Jack in his innest self,but his fears and his own homophobia often were stronger than these wishes.So,yes,of course,he treasured these moments ¡.
However,he canceled the meeting in August because,simply,he had work to do;remember that he hadn't ameliorated his economical and social situation also for the fact that he left a lot of jobs in order to have more spare time,that invariably he spent with his lover.But then he had some great duties as a father,as he had to pay for his girls support.His life has changed notably since divorce and surely his choices of getting a better job weren't so habitual and numerous as before.He says that in their last confrontation: Them earlier days I just quit the job. You forget what it's like bein' broke all the time. You ever hear of child support? I'll tell you this, I can't quit this one. And I can't get the time off. It was hard enough gettin' this time. The tradeoff was August. You got a better idea?.For me,this doesn't mean he didn't want to meet Jack in August,but he had no choices...
But maybe(only "maybe",as it's an idea that has crossed my mind sometimes...)this was also a kind of excuse in the sense that he needed more time to think about their relationship,as he saw things weren't the same way,neither in his private life nor between themselves: Jack was too obsessive,to call it somehow,with his demands of sharing a life and his own inner fight against himself was too great.You know,sometimes you have to get away from something or somebody,no matter how much we love them,so that we can see how our life is going with a wider perspective,a time for ourselves.I don't know,this is only an idea; if you wan to develop it or give your own opinion,that's your turn ¡.
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I agree with Lance in that Ennis would like to have been with Jack more times and during more time; for me the fact of being in the middle of nowhere gave him the feeling of being safer,that's for sure.His kind of paranoia didn't allow him to show himself going out with another man in the open,and the divorce scene is a clear example.I have said in another post that he would have loved sharing this sweet life together with Jack in his innest self,but his fears and his own homophobia often were stronger than these wishes.So,yes,of course,he treasured these moments ¡.
However,he canceled the meeting in August because,simply,he had work to do;remember that he hadn't ameliorated his economical and social situation also for the fact that he left a lot of jobs in order to have more spare time,that invariably he spent with his lover.But then he had some great duties as a father,as he had to pay for his girls support.His life has changed notably since divorce and surely his choices of getting a better job weren't so habitual and numerous as before.He says that in their last confrontation: Them earlier days I just quit the job. You forget what it's like bein' broke all the time. You ever hear of child support? I'll tell you this, I can't quit this one. And I can't get the time off. It was hard enough gettin' this time. The tradeoff was August. You got a better idea?.For me,this doesn't mean he didn't want to meet Jack in August,but he had no choices...
Beautifully explained, mpj. I agree with you 100%. The problem with Ennis is not desire, but options. His being poor gave him very little options. What did he tell Alma Jr at the end, in the trailer? Gosh, I can't believe I am forgetting some of the important lines in the movie. %&) :s) Perhaps it's time to watch it again, or at least, go get the screenplay... ;) "If you don't got nothing, you don't need nothing."
But maybe(only "maybe",as it's an idea that has crossed my mind sometimes...)this was also a kind of excuse in the sense that he needed more time to think about their relationship,as he saw things weren't the same way,neither in his private life nor between themselves: Jack was too obsessive,to call it somehow,with his demands of sharing a life and his won inner fight against himself was too great.You know,sometimes you have to get away from something or somebody,no matter how much we love them,so that we can see how our life is going with a wider perspective,a time for ourselves.I don't know,this is only an idea; if you wan to develop it or give your own opinion,that's your turn ¡.
(:* that's awesome mpj. The idea never occurred to me. I believe you may be right. It would be consistent with Ennis's character...when the pressure is on, he runs. :h: Like the morning after FNIT he took off to the pasture. "I ain't queer." Like when Alma pressured him into moving into town, he yielded eventually, but first he ran away by staying longer at work etc. When Cassie put the pressure on with all 'em phone calls, and leaving messages with the foreman at the ranch, he ran to the diner to eat by himself. I am sure it is a combination of work and also wanting a little distance to think through what Jack wanted. Ennis don't think as fast as most folks. It takes a bit more time to get to the where he wants to go, like sitting at the fire before SNIT...thinking, before finally giving in. If Jack had only waited a little longer. sigh... O0 :^^) ^f^ <^( That's what I love about this place...learning something new even after obsessing over every word, every scene in the movie for five years. :t) :c)
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Beautifully explained, mpj. I agree with you 100%. The problem with Ennis is not desire, but options. His being poor gave him very little options. What did he tell Alma Jr at the end, in the trailer? Gosh, I can't believe I am forgetting some of the important lines in the movie. %&) :s) Perhaps it's time to watch it again, or at least, go get the screenplay... ;) "If you don't got nothing, you don't need nothing."
(:* that's awesome mpj. The idea never occurred to me. I believe you may be right. It would be consistent with Ennis's character...when the pressure is on, he runs. :h: Like the morning after FNIT he took off to the pasture. "I ain't queer." Like when Alma pressured him into moving into town, he yielded eventually, but first he ran away by staying longer at work etc. When Cassie put the pressure on with all 'em phone calls, and leaving messages with the foreman at the ranch, he ran to the diner to eat by himself. I am sure it is a combination of work and also wanting a little distance to think through what Jack wanted. Ennis don't think as fast as most folks. It takes a bit more time to get to the where he wants to go, like sitting at the fire before SNIT...thinking, before finally giving in. If Jack had only waited a little longer. sigh... O0 :^^) ^f^ <^( That's what I love about this place...learning something new even after obsessing over every word, every scene in the movie for five years. :t) :c)
Oh,my ¡ %&) I have just given my own opinion,poor me ¡ I never thought it would be beautiful not awesome ¡ ;D No,speaking seriously,I also think this is consistent with Ennis's character; but he doesn't run from problems,it's simply that he doesn't want more of them ¡ I mean,he's an specifically troubled man,fighting both with his duties and his wishes all his life.Even if there're many moments of greater pressure during it,like in everybody's,what and who puts more pressure inside him is himself ¡.As his greatest pressures,troubles and problems are his childhood shock and his anguishes before his own sexuality.
So,I don't think that he needs more time to think than the rest of persons,poor Ennis ¡ Maybe he isn't Speedy Gonzalez,but he's not dumb ¡ :i A moment arrived when he needed a time for himself surely,a time to think circumstances over and,above all,a time to decide what to do,with all what this implies...I think that he realised somehow that Jack's love,if not diminishing,was in a standby and this feared him.So,who knows if he would have could do something to have some spare time in August,but he preferred the work's option in order to decide which way to get in his relationship with Jack ¡.I don't know,it's only an idea that,in such a contradictory person as Ennis is,gets a shade of possibility.
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Oh,my ¡ %&) I have just given my own opinion,poor me ¡ I never thought it would be beautiful not awesome ¡ ;D No,speaking seriously,I also think this is consistent with Ennis's character; but he doesn't run from problems,it's simply that he doesn't want more of them ¡ I mean,he's an specifically troubled man,fighting both with his duties and his wishes all his life.Even if there're many moments of greater pressure during it,like in everybody's,what and who puts more pressure inside him is himself ¡.As his greatest pressures,troubles and problems are his childhood shock and his anguishes before his own sexuality.
So,I don't think that he needs more time to think than the rest of persons,poor Ennis ¡ Maybe he isn't Speedy Gonzalez,but he's not dumb ¡ :i A moment arrived when he needed a time for himself surely,a time to think circumstances over and,above all,a time to decide what to do,with all what this implies...I think that he realised somehow that Jack's love,if not diminishing,was in a standby and this feared him.So,who knows if he would have could do something to have some spare time in August,but he preferred the work's option in order to decide which way to get in his relationship with Jack ¡.I don't know,it's only an idea that,in such a contradictory person as Ennis is,gets a shade of possibility.
I agree, mpj, that Ennis is not dumb, contrary to all 'em dumb jokes at Ennis's expense in another thread. Ennis did not run away from his problems; he just takes his own time and rhythm resolving them. Your speedy Gonzalez comparison is perfect. O0 Ennis is the turtle to Jack's hare. And it was the slow and steady turtle that won the race in the end.
I also agree that everyone has moments when they simply need to be by themselves, for contemplation, reflection, whatever. Even Jesus needed time to be alone, on his own, to pray and mediate. I don't think Ennis wanted August for this, but I think he expected Jack to be a bit more supportive when he explained about his financial and work obligations. "You forgot..." The tragedy and core of the final confrontation was each of the lover viewed their own needs above the other's, and the conflicting needs became an issue that blew up into the confrontation. Instead of finding a compromise, they each exploded with all the resentment and disappointment that must have been stewing for years.
Like the old sage advice says, never let the sun goes down on any argument and misunderstanding. Sort them out asap.
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I agree, mpj, that Ennis is not dumb, contrary to all 'em dumb jokes at Ennis's expense in another thread. Ennis did not run away from his problems; he just takes his own time and rhythm resolving them. Your speedy Gonzalez comparison is perfect. O0 Ennis is the turtle to Jack's hare. And it was the slow and steady turtle that won the race in the end.
I also agree that everyone has moments when they simply need to be by themselves, for contemplation, reflection, whatever. Even Jesus needed time to be alone, on his own, to pray and mediate. I don't think Ennis wanted August for this, but I think he expected Jack to be a bit more supportive when he explained about his financial and work obligations. "You forgot..." The tragedy and core of the final confrontation was each of the lover viewed their own needs above the other's, and the conflicting needs became an issue that blew up into the confrontation. Instead of finding a compromise, they each exploded with all the resentment and disappointment that must have been stewing for years.
Like the old sage advice says, never let the sun goes down on any argument and misunderstanding. Sort them out asap.
Sorry Lance, but I wonder what did Ennis won at the end ? Acceptation of his love for Jack, Ok, but also eternal regrets and loneliness, after all the hare waited 20 years! :-\\
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Sorry Lance, but I wonder what did Ennis won at the end ? Acceptation of his love for Jack, Ok, but also eternal regrets and loneliness, after all the hare waited 20 years! :-\\
Yes, regrets, hence the tears, but also self-acceptance, and the love of people he cares about, Alma Jr, Jack's Ma. Most of all, the two shirts, the knowledge that Jack loved him...really truly loved him. Jack died not knowing if Ennis would ever change, if Ennis ever truly loved him.
Ennis won the consolation prize, because Jack was not willing to wait. If Jack had been more patient, with greater love, then they would have won the grand prize together. What's 20 years compared to people who waited much longer?
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Yes, regrets, hence the tears, but also self-acceptance, and the love of people he cares about, Alma Jr, Jack's Ma. Most of all, the two shirts, the knowledge that Jack loved him...really truly loved him. Jack died not knowing if Ennis would ever change, if Ennis ever truly loved him.
Ennis won the consolation prize, because Jack was not willing to wait. If Jack had been more patient, with greater love, then they would have won the grand prize together. What's 20 years compared to people who waited much longer?
I have to admit that I have much more empathy for jack than Ennis, he waited not 1, 5, but 20 years, as far as I'm concerned I couldn't have waited so long, even if my love for someone had been great, I would have been devastated but for my own sanity, I would have move on. What I think is tragic, it's the context, the homophobic environment where they both leave and grew up. So for me 20 years it's far too much. Jack was the one who tried to find solutions to their problems, " we should move to another place, an another state, maybe south, maybe Texas" He was willing to do that all the time. But each options of Jack were roughly rejected by Ennis. I can't blame Jack to have search solace in the arms of other men, it was just human. On the other hand, Jack was the talkative one, the extrovert one, he should have been more open to Ennis concerning his love, he hide the shirts, didn't say clearly that he loved Ennis. Sometimes I wonder why he waited 4 years to send this damn post card! ^*) When you're deeply in love, you mustn't wait so long, it was 4 years of irreparable damage. Ennis was surely in the closet all this years untill he found the shirts, but Jack too in a way in not expressing verbaly his love! shit, I'm going to cry again now :_(
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Maybe it's a speculation from my part, but I was just wondering even though Jack had verbally expressed his love, I doubt that they would have had a life together. Ennis was so deep in the closet because of his child trauma, that he wouldn't have allowed the sweet life proposal to happen. Only the death of his love allowed him to accept, that Jack was right all this years. :-\\
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No,is not an speculation from your part: the fact that Jack had verbally expressed his love wouldn't have changed anything.One of their relationship greatest mistakes was precisely the lack of verbal communication,sometimes even painful; but I think that both of them had given enough clues about their respective feelings for each other during all these years without any result in this sense...Anyway,the only probability that could have changed their situation is that a kind of "final confrontation" had taken place a lot of years before,including reproaches and suspicions; maybe that way they had realised how they're wasting their time and,what's worst,their possibilities of being really happy.
But the greatest problem,IMO, was how deeply Ennis traumas was put inside his mind and soul; trauma that made him spend all his life protecting Jack and himself from a danger that came after years and years of denies and loneliness.A contradiction both of them payed a high price for... :-\\
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Jack nor Ennis has complete, perfect, true love, except when they were up there in Brokeback Mountain, away from society, in the middle of nowhere. But to qualify love in that way is to say that love is not perfect.
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Perfect or not, it's still the love that never grows old, the love that we all found from the movie, and bounded to it.
Love doesn't have to be perfect. It just needs to be. Welcome Ivy. :h} #$# ^f^
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I have to admit that I have much more empathy for jack than Ennis, he waited not 1, 5, but 20 years, as far as I'm concerned I couldn't have waited so long, even if my love for someone had been great, I would have been devastated but for my own sanity, I would have move on. What I think is tragic, it's the context, the homophobic environment where they both leave and grew up. So for me 20 years it's far too much. Jack was the one who tried to find solutions to their problems, " we should move to another place, an another state, maybe south, maybe Texas" He was willing to do that all the time. But each options of Jack were roughly rejected by Ennis. I can't blame Jack to have search solace in the arms of other men, it was just human. On the other hand, Jack was the talkative one, the extrovert one, he should have been more open to Ennis concerning his love, he hide the shirts, didn't say clearly that he loved Ennis. Sometimes I wonder why he waited 4 years to send this damn post card! ^*) When you're deeply in love, you mustn't wait so long, it was 4 years of irreparable damage. Ennis was surely in the closet all this years untill he found the shirts, but Jack too in a way in not expressing verbaly his love! shit, I'm going to cry again now :_(
I am a bit slow replying to this. It got me thinking on a couple separate tracks.
One is the concept of waiting for someone to change. I think it's safe to say, we cannot expect the person we love to change for us. We have to take it or leave it. We can take it as is, and bask in the love of the moment. Or, we can pursue our life according to our expectations. Love cannot abide by other people's expectations. True love does not expect our beloved to change for us. True love is when we willing change ourselves for our beloved, no strings attached, no conditions amended, no expectations in return. Ennis made that mistake in his homophobia (living up to his pop and society's expectations); Jack did the same waiting on Ennis to change. Truth is, they had a good thing going. They could do more, but love is happy with what is, not what might have been. Waiting for 20years? True love waits a life time, and not regret a minute of waiting. Yes, it coulda been a sweet sweet life with the cow and calf operation, but Jack's ideas are often filled with bluebirds singing next to whiskey springs. The beauty of their relationship had always been the practicality of Ennis bringing the dreams of Jack to reality. Jack wanted elk? Ennis shot it. Jack wanted to stay closer to camp? Ennis wouldn't mind switching. Jack getting bored of just sitting around the camp fire? Ennis brought his horses for exploring the wilderness. Jack didn't like the cold in November? Ennis managed to get Don Wroe to lend them his cabin. When Ennis said "no" to Jack's dream, it was not for nothing, but for his deeply rooted fears and societal reality of that time. If Jack cannot accept Ennis the way he was, then what can we say about Jack's love? It's all about him, and Ennis was just along for the ride? I think not. Jack understood Ennis and accepted that. That's the tragedy. Jack kept on dreaming, waiting on Ennis. But his patience ran out, just as Ennis, and social mores (they were coming up on the Stonewall riot and the liberation movement when Jack died) were about to change.
Secondly, I don't think either of them thought about this as love, but more as sex and passion. The conversation in the motel was all about stemming the rose hundred of times when they were apart. Jack said he could hardly stand it, but what did he do to help to stand it? Going off to Mexico. It was never about love, consciously, except for a few moments. Jack was in denial just as much as Ennis was, but he was willing to flaunt society for sex...prostitutes and all. Ennis was more conservative, and never realized what it was, until Cassie said, "Girls don't fall in love for fun." Cowboys have fun, but fall in love for more than fun, too. So why did Jack wait four years before sending his postcard? Recall the scene at the hospital after Bobby was born. He was treated like dirt by Old Man Newsome. His wife did nothing to stand up to her father. He felt alone in a room full of people, with a baby, his own son, looking like the Old Man, so the Old Man says. Both of them found companionship where none was expected up there in the mountain. In their loneliness, they yearn for each other, and held onto each other, for twenty years, and didn't know how to quit, didn't want to quit. It's a wonder Jack waited so long before sending that postcard, but then again, he did go back to Signal looking for Ennis...but that dang Aguierre put him in his place...you boys weren't paid to stem the rose while the dogs babysat the sheep. Jack had his fears, too. So let's not blame it all on Ennis.
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I am a bit slow replying to this. It got me thinking on a couple separate tracks.
One is the concept of waiting for someone to change. I think it's safe to say, we cannot expect the person we love to change for us. We have to take it or leave it. We can take it as is, and bask in the love of the moment. Or, we can pursue our life according to our expectations. Love cannot abide by other people's expectations. True love does not expect our beloved to change for us. True love is when we willing change ourselves for our beloved, no strings attached, no conditions amended, no expectations in return. Ennis made that mistake in his homophobia (living up to his pop and society's expectations); Jack did the same waiting on Ennis to change. Truth is, they had a good thing going. They could do more, but love is happy with what is, not what might have been. Waiting for 20years? True love waits a life time, and not regret a minute of waiting. Yes, it coulda been a sweet sweet life with the cow and calf operation, but Jack's ideas are often filled with bluebirds singing next to whiskey springs. The beauty of their relationship had always been the practicality of Ennis bringing the dreams of Jack to reality. Jack wanted elk? Ennis shot it. Jack wanted to stay closer to camp? Ennis wouldn't mind switching. Jack getting bored of just sitting around the camp fire? Ennis brought his horses for exploring the wilderness. Jack didn't like the cold in November? Ennis managed to get Don Wroe to lend them his cabin. When Ennis said "no" to Jack's dream, it was not for nothing, but for his deeply rooted fears and societal reality of that time. If Jack cannot accept Ennis the way he was, then what can we say about Jack's love? It's all about him, and Ennis was just along for the ride? I think not. Jack understood Ennis and accepted that. That's the tragedy. Jack kept on dreaming, waiting on Ennis. But his patience ran out, just as Ennis, and social mores (they were coming up on the Stonewall riot and the liberation movement when Jack died) were about to change.
Secondly, I don't think either of them thought about this as love, but more as sex and passion. The conversation in the motel was all about stemming the rose hundred of times when they were apart. Jack said he could hardly stand it, but what did he do to help to stand it? Going off to Mexico. It was never about love, consciously, except for a few moments. Jack was in denial just as much as Ennis was, but he was willing to flaunt society for sex...prostitutes and all. Ennis was more conservative, and never realized what it was, until Cassie said, "Girls don't fall in love for fun." Cowboys have fun, but fall in love for more than fun, too. So why did Jack wait four years before sending his postcard? Recall the scene at the hospital after Bobby was born. He was treated like dirt by Old Man Newsome. His wife did nothing to stand up to her father. He felt alone in a room full of people, with a baby, his own son, looking like the Old Man, so the Old Man says. Both of them found companionship where none was expected up there in the mountain. In their loneliness, they yearn for each other, and held onto each other, for twenty years, and didn't know how to quit, didn't want to quit. It's a wonder Jack waited so long before sending that postcard, but then again, he did go back to Signal looking for Ennis...but that dang Aguierre put him in his place...you boys weren't paid to stem the rose while the dogs babysat the sheep. Jack had his fears, too. So let's not blame it all on Ennis.
I didn't say that Ennis was the one to blame, and I agree when you said that Jack had his fear too. And that's for me their main problems, through their fears, they didn't allowed themselves to be true, true to each other, and true to themselves, and that's why they're suffering so much, that's why they misunderstood each other, that's why they cannot express their love openly. If our boys would have lived nowadays, things would have been so different for them, the tragedy as you said is this homophobic environment of the 60's, it's the fears of Ennis to be found out in public with Jack. He was ready to offer Jack the moon when they were alone in Brokeback, as you said, to please his companion, but was enable to offer him the sweet life back to the real world, because of his deeply rooted fear. That's why Jack was less upset than Ennis, when they have to leave the mountain earlier, Jack didn't know about Earl and Reach, he thought that their relationship would go on after the summer. Maybe if the summer in Brokeback wouldn't have been shortening by Aguirre, they could have talked more about their relationship. I didn't blame Ennis at all, I blame this homophobic society were they both grew up; I blame the father of Ennis letting him witnesses poor Earl. I blame the father of Jack too, being so careless. And as you said once in a previous post, love and acceptance bring us together, bond us together in community and gives us strength, Fear separate us into lonely individuals. :ghug:
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Concerning the great love of Ennis, I have always wondered what was the profound reason of his refusal for the sweet life proposal, was it because he wanted to protect Jack from homophobic violence, or was it because of his own homophobic tendencies ? Any thoughts ?
Concerning the question I asked to both of you, I tend to agree with MPJ, I think that Ennis was scared to death about what he saw when he was a child, but I tend to believe, rightly because he was so much in love, that he wanted also to protect Jack against homophobic violence. ( it's kind of strange I give an answer to my own question!) ^*()
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who loved more ? or who was more in love ... ennis or jack ? :-\\ lets make it difficult - you HAVE to pick one
here please discount factors like who suffered more in life or who was less expressive or who was unable to accept the alternate sexuality - beyond all these do you feel one of them was more in love than the other
or is it that those factors i mentioned cannot be discounted while discussing
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who loved more ? or who was more in love ... ennis or jack ? :-\\ lets make it difficult - you HAVE to pick one
here please discount factors like who suffered more in life or who was less expressive or who was unable to accept the alternate sexuality - beyond all these do you feel one of them was more in love than the other
or is it that those factors i mentioned cannot be discounted while discussing
Haveacrush, I think that this thread had been already covered, a few months ago in the thread whose love was the greatest? :)
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Haveacrush, Forever is right, and the thread is here : http://www.ennisjack.com/forum/index.php?topic=16912.0 (http://www.ennisjack.com/forum/index.php?topic=16912.0)
:) }s{
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hey thanks .. will check the thread :)
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I don't know whose love was greater. In a way I think their love was one and the same. Just the thought of tearing their love apart to measure the pieces is painful. Ennis and Jack were different and they had different ways of expressing their mutual love, but lesser or greater? I can't judge in this matter. However, Ennis' love became eternal because he lost Jack. "Loosing all was winning's cost! Eternally owned is but what's lost!"
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Lance, I'm so glad to see that I gave you new food for the thought! Ennis love greater than Jack's love, I thought WHAT ? that can't be true! But then I read the post of MPJ saying that maybe Ennis's love was the greatest rightly because he was in self-denial, his whole body and heart crying YES, desperately YES to Jack, to his love, ready to take his hand and fly together ( The breakdown of Ennis in the alleyway show me that) and sadly his stoic mind repeating again and again, NO, two man in love living together no way! >:( Makes me suddenly think of captain Haddock in tintin, with on one side the little good angel and the other side the bad one telling him that only one drop of more whiskey can't be bad for his health! ;D
ha ha captain haddock and tintin *o) but hillarious