Sorry if this has been discussed somewhere else...If it has, please can someone tell me where I can find the discussion?
Why did Ennis feel the needs to send the post card to Jack about his divorce? Why can't he wait until their next fishing trip and tell him then in person? We know Ennis had no intention to start a sweet life with Jack after the divorce so it can't be that he wanted Jack to come right away and can't wait until their next trip. We also know Ennis was not trying to let Jack know his new mailing address (apparently he didn't even mention he'd moved in the post card). So why can't he wait?
yuddy
Interesting question Yuddy, I don't think it has been discussed before - This is a somewhat confused point actually. In the SS Ennis calls Jack after the divorce, this earlier call is outlined after Ennis gets the "DECEASED" postcard back and then he calls Jack's number again:
"He called Jack's number in Childress, something he had done only once before, when Alma divorced him, and Jack had misunderstood the reason for the call, had driven twelve hundred miles north for nothing."
The screenplay moves this brief scene up to immediately after the divorce when Jack makes the drive to Wyoming and is then disappointed by his reception. But your question of WHY? is good, why indeed.
I suppose it could be because Jack had asked Ennis to let him know, this seems to be plausible to me. As you indicate, Ennis is not the talkative type, especially about himself, so it does seem odd that he would make an issue of this event, especially by calling Jack. Obviously Ennis and Jack must have discussed the deteriorating situation between Ennis and Alma during the fishing trips, so Jack had some idea what was going on. In either case, either the call or the postcard, it's clear that the communication from Ennis is pretty limited and bumbled up, as Jack misinterprets the message(s) and beelines it for Ennis. Hard to imagine how, after they talked on the phone, Jack still mistakenly got the impression that Ennis wanted him to head up to Wyoming. But you're right, if Ennis didn't want him to head north why did Ennis contact Jack at all right away?
Throughout the film, Ennis did several things out of his character, always for one purpose only, to make Jack happy (e.g. killing elk, quitting jobs). Could this be another example?Well, could be :s) . . . . long ago I posted my idea of the "evolution" of Ennis DelMar and the steps involved, as shown in the film - something like: 1st ordering soup instead of beans for Jack (No more beans), 2nd shooting the elk for Jack, 3rd switching roles with Jack (you wanna switch), etc. etc. All these steps (maybe 10 or so) showing how Ennis internally evolved in his internal love for Jack. This evolution comes to a pinnacle in Jack's closet in 1983 when he discovers the shirts and Ennis has an epiphany finally realizing how much Jack loved him, but more importantly how much he truly loved Jack. At this point Ennis takes Jack's shirt and decides to publicly "out" himself to Jack's Ma and Pa by showing how much this piece of clothing means. His love overcomes his fear. Anyway, your idea that Ennis sent this card to please Jack would fit right into that evolution, as one more step that Ennis took, not because he wanted to, but because Jack wanted him to.
Well, could be :s) . . . . long ago I posted my idea of the "evolution" of Ennis DelMar and the steps involved, as shown in the film - something like: 1st ordering soup instead of beans for Jack (No more beans), 2nd shooting the elk for Jack, 3rd switching roles with Jack (you wanna switch), etc. etc. All these steps (maybe 10 or so) showing how Ennis internally evolved in his internal love for Jack. This evolution comes to a pinnacle in Jack's closet in 1983 when he discovers the shirts and Ennis has an epiphany finally realizing how much Jack loved him, but more importantly how much he truly loved Jack. At this point Ennis takes Jack's shirt and decides to publicly "out" himself to Jack's Ma and Pa by showing how much this piece of clothing means. His love overcomes his fear. Anyway, your idea that Ennis sent this card to please Jack would fit right into that evolution, as one more step that Ennis took, not because he wanted to, but because Jack wanted him to.
Found my post from long ago, still reads good to me - take a look at:
http://www.ennisjack.com/forum/index.php?topic=12265.msg623667#msg623667 (http://www.ennisjack.com/forum/index.php?topic=12265.msg623667#msg623667)
I've thought a bit about CHs question below too. Don't know what the postcard might have said, but it doesn't seem like Ennis would say "free at last". In the movie anyway the picture we get of Ennis at the divorce hearing is not a happy one, where he's glad the marriage is over. Maybe he's feeling inadequate and a failure, but we see him with tears in eyes. Though next when Jack shows up at Ennis's new shack outside of Riverton, Jack is really beaming with excitement which he displays directly to Ennis, I would have thought if Jack thought Ennis was at all down about the divorce his approach here might have been more reserved. So there seem to be conflicting signals it would seem. Maybe you or CH can straighten this out for me . . .
I suppose the challenge, Jackster, if it's worth even bothering about, is to find some words that would make Jack "excited".Well, goin' back to Ennis's flowery ::) writin' style (you bet) maybe sumthin' like:
Well, goin' back to Ennis's flowery ::) writin' style (you bet) maybe sumthin' like:divorce over, movin' this weekend.
I can see Jack readin' this and almost jumpin' into the pickup, thinkin' he an' Ennis will be all alone at Ennis' new digs.
Course he doesn't know where he's goin' but figures he can find out.
A few days all alone w/Ennis, in a house! with a bed! (well maybe) Whoee!
But of course in the movie it takes him a few weeks to accomplish this, as Ennis musta' had those few weeks after the divorce where he missed having the girls with him, etc. So the elapsed time here is not just a few days. Do I have have that timeline right CH?
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Sometimes I wonder what would happen if Jack showed up on a different day when the girls were not there?Well yuddy, I guess I'd have to take Ennis at his word when he says "I'm sure as hell sorry, you know that I am". I think if the girls weren't there they'd probably be inside "jouncing a bed" in a matter of minutes. Why the heck not? For all practical purposes they're out in the middle of nowhere and certainly nobody's gonna' come knockin' on Ennis's door. So it seems like it could be a repeat of the same wonderful, stinkin' room from years earlier "The room stank of semen and smoke and sweat and whiskey, of old carpet and sour hay, saddle leather, shit and cheap soap." I think this is whut Jack was hopin' for and it's hard for me to see whut would prevent this other than the daughters or if Ennis was out on a round-up. Ennis enjoys the sex as much as Jack so would be almost as eager as Jack I think. This has always been one of the more frustating scenes to me, they both seem so utterly uncreative in trying to solve what is surely a temporary scheduling problem. There would seem to be any number of possible alternatives which would have allowed them to spend some time together here, a simple variation of whut he told Alma years earlier - "Jack and me is goin out and get a drink. Might not get back tonight, we get drinkin and talkin." could have worked again.
Thanks Jackster, like CH, I also enjoy reading your post on Ennis' development. It is too bad that among all the interviews I read from Heath, no one ever asked him what he thinks about the transformation of Ennis throughout the story.
Sometimes I wonder what would happen if Jack shows up on a different day when the girls are not there? Ennis only got the girls once a month and sometimes he even misses it, what the odds Jack comes the day the girls are there! To be honest, I am afraid it would have been even more devastating to Jack so I don't want to speculate too much about it (Ennis, now without a good excuse, turns Jack away still...).
About the timeline that CH mentioned, don't they meet sometimes in Spring (like FC)? Of course I don't know what it means to be Spring in Wyoming...to me Spring is March-April so Jack's visit could be in Feb? That will put Ennis' sending the postcard some time in Jan. This makes sense to me. Who would tell people about their divorce during holiday seasons in Dec? Oh wait, now there is another idea - maybe Ennis sent a Christmas postcard to Jack and casually mentioned the divorce on it :s)
. . . After all, they start their time together on Brokeback on May 8.:s)
:s)
Sorry CH, I'll need a refresher here. I remember you posted this long ago in your BBM timeline, but I don't recall how you arrived at this specific date. Where's did the 8th come from?
:i
Your post:
http://www.ennisjack.com/forum/index.php?topic=1885.msg1008959#msg1008959 (http://www.ennisjack.com/forum/index.php?topic=1885.msg1008959#msg1008959)
It's the moon, Jackster, the moon. Or, to be more precise, the full moon. If you roll the calendar back to 1963, you'll find that a full moon occurred on May 8. In the movie, when we see Jack alone outside his pup tent on his first night on Brokeback, we see a full moon. Therefore it must be May 8. FNIT occurs the following month at the next full moon, June 7.Amazing calculation here CH, don't know why I didn't follow thru with you on this years ago. I think maybe it always seemed hopeless to me to try and match the SS and SP together and make them "line-up" correctly. But interesting enough now, do you think the movie and script team actually considered checking the phases of the moon when hangin' that big ol' moon up there for Jack to look at and be thinkin' of Ennis?
These dates can also be made to work for June/July but if FNIT doesn't occur until early July, that gives our boys only about five weeks before snow forces them to leave Brokeback. . . . .
Amazing calculation here CH, don't know why I didn't follow thru with you on this years ago. I think maybe it always seemed hopeless to me to try and match the SS and SP together and make them "line-up" correctly. But interesting enough now, do you think the movie and script team actually considered checking the phases of the moon when hangin' that big ol' moon up there for Jack to look at and be thinkin' of Ennis?
Wyoming weather - As one who's been in Wyoming in late May and early June (though only on two occasions) my own opin is that there's no way the boys would be up in the mountains in early May. They'd be snowshoeing their way around if they were and the sheep would be diggin' tunnels in the snow. Even driving through the mountains was pretty memorable in early June, with the snow still piled higher than the car on both sides of the road. Of course, this changes dramatically from year to year. Checking the WYO Travel Info Map today http://map.wyoroad.info/hi.html (http://map.wyoroad.info/hi.html) I see that all the roads are now open for the season. But I recall that last year, with its record snows, some passes in the Big Horns didn't open until the 4th of July the snow was so deep. Plus I have my own personal reasons for thinkin' June was the big meeting month, but that's another story altogether.
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View of Ennis on the trip up the mountain. Lookin' at the height of the grass and flowers (if I can tear my eyes away from other, ahem, features) this looks like early June to my eyes.
I'm thinkin' what you said "only about five weeks" - yeah, not a lot of time, but they could still deepen their intimacy pretty significantly, right? Being teenagers twice a day is no problem, huh? Maybe this why Ennis gets so frustrated when Jack says "Bring 'em down". The playtime just got started and they'd wasted all those days (and nights) early on.
Thanks to LC too for your usual words of kindness. :-*
The second is a detail from the ss. In a description of one Ennis and Jack's very enjoyable evenings around the camp fire prior to FNIT we learn that one of the things they talked about was "...the submarine Thresher lost two months earlier with all hands". The Thresher sank on April 10 though news didn't get out for a few days, so this could point to mid to late June when this conversation takes place.
As far as the full moon is concerned, I wouldn't be in the least surprised if that was Ang Lee's contribution, as the two full moons are not mentioned in either the ss. or the script. He's known as a stickler for details so could have consulted a 1963 calendar - easy enough to do these days with the internet - to check on the dates of the full moon the summer of 1963. Even if he didn't do that, it's a neat and unobtrusive way of marking the amount of time that elapses between their first meeting and FNIT.
...
By the way, you guys are all genius! Some of the discussions on this forum should get put into a Brokeback study book, and get published!
yuddy
wonderful thoughts and details <^(
our brokies never cease to amaze me... <^(
Golly CH:
Forgot all about that submarine Thresher line in the SS. O0
I'd say that pretty well seals it, huh?
Interestingly, the motto of the Thresher: "Vis Tacita" - Silent Strength.
Remind you of anybody?
One more vote for a June start. I remember in the ss, when Ennis got the post card from Jack in June 1967, it says "The fourth summer since Brokeback Mountain came on and in June Ennis had a general delivery letter from Jack Twist, the first sign of life in all that time"? Annie did specifically said it was June that Ennis received the post card, right? It seems to me, to Annie, who lived in Wyoming at the time, June is the beginning of summer.
Coming from the same cultural background (I grew up in Taiwan as well) and having read many of Ang's Chinese interviews, I am convinced the full moon is not a convenience or coincident. I am pretty sure Ang did that on purpose. If not for dating purpose, like you all deciphered, it might have something to do with Chinese tradition (full moon is a symbol of "coming together", "lovers' reunion", etc). In fact, Chinese Valentine's day is set to be the day of full moon in August according to western calendar...and there is a tragic love story between a cowherd and a princess behind this traditional holiday that share many similarities with E&J's story (http://www.chinesefortunecalendar.com/77a.htm (http://www.chinesefortunecalendar.com/77a.htm))...
By the way, you guys are all genius! Some of the discussions on this forum should get put into a Brokeback study book, and get published!
yuddy
:8 Jackster
BBMSheep SS is the original Annie Proulx short story, which, as CH reminded us and I totally drew a blank, contained a reference to the submarine USS Thresher, and as Jackster pointed out below, the motto is apt for our Ennis, hiding not just behind a wall, but beneath a deep blue sea, with all the emotions unleashed by Jack that summer on Brokeback. FNIT was Jack deepchargin Ennis. SNIT was Ennis surfacing in full force.
The more I think about Vis Tacita, the more I love it. <^(
Many thanks, Yuddy, for letting us know what associations the full moon might have to somebody,
like Ang, . . .
The full moon makes one final appearance in the movie: . . . .
. . . I think it has symbolic values. . . .
RE: Vis Tacita. My thoughts on discovering this were that in many ways (not all, but many) this was the image of Ennis we get, not talkative or verbal, but strong and steadfast. He had his weaknesses for sure, but he also was "made for fighting". One my own hypotheses has been that if Ennis could have overcome his own homophobia of himself (which I feel he was in process of) and once he determined that he and Jack could have a sweet life (had Jack lived) there was probably little that could have stopped him from doing that. I see this as another aspect of the tragedy, it seems we're shown the potential this relationship held within. Tragically, never to be realized.
As you no doubt know, the associations of the full moon in the West - in the Anglo world at least - are far more sinister. The word "lunatic" is derived from the Latin word for the moon, "luna", and Hollywood has utilized more than once the legend of the werewolf which is also linked to the full moon. Maybe others here can come up with more ways in which the full moon has been portrayed in either story or film.
The full moon makes one final appearance in the movie:
http://www.stripedwall.com/gallery.php?image=/movies/Brokeback/brokebackmtn_2262.jpg&mode=fullsize (http://www.stripedwall.com/gallery.php?image=/movies/Brokeback/brokebackmtn_2262.jpg&mode=fullsize)
This occurs as a transition shot between the day time when the two of them strip off and jump into the river or lake and the night time scene when they are around a camp fire, just as they were on Brokeback. Here, it's not needed as a time marker as the time and the year have already been established.
Therefore, beyond its obvious role as letting us know that day has now turned into night, I think it has symbolic values. I look at those clouds creeping around the moon's edge and this makes me think of all the problems and difficulties which now lie ahead for Ennis and Jack. This is the scene where Jack brings up the possibility of a "sweet life" for the two of them but we all know how impossible it proved to be to bring that moon dream into the full light of day,
Golly CH:
Forgot all about that submarine Thresher line in the SS. O0
I'd say that pretty well seals it, huh?
Interestingly, the motto of the Thresher: "Vis Tacita" - Silent Strength.
Remind you of anybody?
One more vote for a June start. I remember in the ss, when Ennis got the post card from Jack in June 1967, it says "The fourth summer since Brokeback Mountain came on and in June Ennis had a general delivery letter from Jack Twist, the first sign of life in all that time"? Annie did specifically said it was June that Ennis received the post card, right? It seems to me, to Annie, who lived in Wyoming at the time, June is the beginning of summer.
Coming from the same cultural background (I grew up in Taiwan as well) and having read many of Ang's Chinese interviews, I am convinced the full moon is not a convenience or coincident. I am pretty sure Ang did that on purpose. If not for dating purpose, like you all deciphered, it might have something to do with Chinese tradition (full moon is a symbol of "coming together", "lovers' reunion", etc). In fact, Chinese Valentine's day is set to be the day of full moon in August according to western calendar...and there is a tragic love story between a cowherd and a princess behind this traditional holiday that share many similarities with E&J's story (http://www.chinesefortunecalendar.com/77a.htm (http://www.chinesefortunecalendar.com/77a.htm))...
By the way, you guys are all genius! Some of the discussions on this forum should get put into a Brokeback study book, and get published!
yuddy
. . . if Ennis could have overcome his own homophobia and determined to have a sweet life with Jack, I am sure he will be the one that keeps it going until the end of the world.yup, I think you an' I see this aspect of the story exactly the same yuddy O0 Vis Tacita
. . . . Was Annie trying to sneaking in a prophecy?this is a remarkable insight and question here yuddy. As we know, AP is an incredible stickler for detail as well as being really intelligent. So it sure seems possible that she could be doin' this, and as LC says, foreshadowing all kinds of events in the story. On the other hand, if she's just tryin' to "lock-in" a specific time an' place, June '63. This is certainly something two young (military age) men would be talking about. I vaguely remember it myself as a really big deal, even though I was 'only' eleven. Yet another of those serendipitous events or connections that shine down on this entire story and movie, that bring potential meaning and mystery to even the smallest corner of the tale.
I remember in Charlie Rose's interview, Heath said, "Ennis is someone with potential. The problem is what he does not allow himself to do." It's amazing how deep Heath got into Ennis psyche and knew exactly the root of the Brokeback tragedy.No need to point out the remarkable potential and tragedy of Heath Ledger. Talk about foreshadowing . . . :_( :_(
Boy yuddy, this poor 'topic' of yours is goin' all over the place, huh? ???
Time to re-read the short story. That conversation with Thresher sounds like Annie foreshadowing Ennis's own trapped life later with Alma, when he felt suffocating, with no place to go, being nothing, only looking forward to the occasional visit with Jack, and then later, the dreams when they come.
Oh my, all this talk of Ennis with potential, Vis Tacita, and Heath knowing Ennis deeply, Heath WAS Ennis and all, is putting me into PBS. :( :_(
. . . All these things that are so out of his character / against his principles really happened to show that Ennis indeed has potential, great potential!