Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: jerasjr on Feb 22, 2006, 05:03 PM
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After 20 years of loving Ennis, Jack at some point decides he must move on... for me this is set at the dance with Lurleen. He asks LaShawn to dance, and you hear 2 lines of a song (softly) in the background. It was only after listening to the soundtrack, that I discoverd that the song was "I don't want to say goodbye". It seemed to me that this was the time that Jack had to let go of Ennis and not without regret. The song is excellent, it's actually my favorite.
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I also love this song. In fact when i first bought my copy of the soundtrack i couldn't place the song. When i did though i thought 'Jacks finally letting him go' So sad, but such a beautiful track. :'(
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We've gone over there here before. It's hard to tell, I mean obviously he hooks up with the guy so was trying to move on. But also note when Jack's father said Jack had talked of having that guy up at the ranch but it never happened. So he may have been trying to move on but it wasn't happening in real life. But yes, I think it's obvious he was looking for a change. Ennis *could* have gone with things staying status quo forever.
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Jack decides to move on after their fallout the last time he and Ennis were together. Ennis cancels the August meeting after telling him again that they will never be able to be together. It just sinks in for Jack. For 15 years Jack always believed and wanted to believe that it was possible and for 15 years Ennis refused to believe that it could be. Jack, frustrated, finally has to accept that it never will be and probably says something equivalent to "screw you Ennis del Mar, go f**k yourself, I've had it". He is, though, just torn apart. If you look at the way he looks at Ennis while Ennis is driving off, you can see in his expression that he has decided that this is the last time he will ever see him, but he doesn't love him less for that, because he is so consumed by his love for Ennis.
In that scene you see him as a young man watching Ennis ride off with such tenderness and then it cuts back to him older, resigned to losing Ennis. His face in this scene is so old, its like a mask so grim and hardened - i would have liked to have seen how Ennis looked driving away from him, so many times in this film you get left wanting more from it - maybe thats the true beauty of it.
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I would offer one small scene that I think is the very first where Jack just got an inkling that he maybe not be able to have Ennis the way he wants him.
After the first fishing trip, after the four years apart, Jack says: "You and Alma. That's a life" and Ennis responds with : 'You shut up about Alma, it ain't her fault'
Look at Jack.
He stares at Ennis for at least 6 seconds before casting his eyes down. 6 seconds of close up is significant. I think this is where Jack is realizing something. I am not sure what that is, thought. Did anyone else notice this?
Thoughts?
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After 20 years of loving Ennis, Jack at some point decides he must move on... for me this is set at the dance with Lurleen. He asks LaShawn to dance, and you hear 2 lines of a song (softly) in the background. It was only after listening to the soundtrack, that I discoverd that the song was "I don't want to say goodbye". It seemed to me that this was the time that Jack had to let go of Ennis and not without regret. The song is excellent, it's actually my favorite.
I thought Jack really had hope until driving to Wyoming after hearing about the divorce. When he drives away in tears...toward Mexico...I think that is when he actually started to let go...it was a long process. Truthfully I doubt he ever really let go...he would have gone back to Ennis in a heartbeat...but I do think that after this particular scene he is starting to make some tough decisions. :'( :'( :'(
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I don't think Jack will ever give up on Ennis, he's caught no matter how hard he tries to fish in other ponds. Jack is clearly gay if you read Annie's story. In the story Ennis says, "I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you." (He's been j**kin off over the years thinking of Jack) "You do it with other guys? Jack?"
" "Shit no," said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls. not rolling his own." " I think that is what the scene with the rodeo clown at the bar was all about. Jack hit on him and was rebuffed, walked away only to probably try somewhere else. BUT, for all his sexual needs, his most important emotional needs were with Ennis. The layers and layers of this film and story just blow me away.
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I guess we won't ever know --- but maybe Jack did think about being with Randall but not as a free choice. I wonder did he think this could end the pain for at least one of them ,i.e. meet Ennis's plea to be left alone.
But my opinion is he couldn't have done it --- or not for long --- this is based on some of the dialogue.
The scene that kills me is the last night together and Jacks words ,"The truth is --- sometimes i miss you so much i can hardly stand it". He already knows the pain of not having Ennis with him , how could he give him up completely??
Also the clincher for me is the "I wish i knew how to quit you"--- with all the crap they've both been thru , Jack is so much a part of this person he wouldn't exist without him.
Its like in the short story , after the break down they find a way to put the pieces back ---but not the same as before. Declarations, fears expressed , don't bring resolution .
The tragedy is there was no way out --- and I think thats what I see on Jack's face as he watches Ennis drive away.
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I don't think Jack will ever give up on Ennis, he's caught no matter how hard he tries to fish in other ponds. Jack is clearly gay if you read Annie's story. In the story Ennis says, "I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you." (He's been j**kin off over the years thinking of Jack) "You do it with other guys? Jack?"
" "Shit no," said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls. not rolling his own." " I think that is what the scene with the rodeo clown at the bar was all about. Jack hit on him and was rebuffed, walked away only to probably try somewhere else. BUT, for all his sexual needs, his most important emotional needs were with Ennis. The layers and layers of this film and story just blow me away.
excellent quote, also what still bothers me is the whole thing with Randell, I still have a feeling that Laureen was behind all of that nonesense, I paid close attention to that scene yesterday, and it comes across as Randell was simply prodding Jack so to let Laureen know that her Hubby was up to no good, although she surely had some indication as described in the book. any thought on this???
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".....they torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they'd said was now news. Nothing ended, nothing begun nothing resolved." The look on Jack's face as Ennis drove away.......love.....resignation.....knowing he would continue to do what he did when not with Ennis just to survive. Knowing that it was what he had with Ennis that mattered. Damn, I'm crying again!
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Damn, I'm crying again!
Me too. Not real kosher at my desk. Thank God everyone's got a cold.
Did Jack ever really give up on Ennis? I don't think so. But I do think that a weariness set in - for both men that was kind of a slow death. I don't mean to make light of their love. Obviously it stood the test of time, and given more time, I think it would have stood that test.
But, it was getting old for Jack.
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I think Ennis was on the edge of tipping over to Jack's way of thinking, else why did he dump Cassie? Times had changed and so had our boys. But Jack had to have what he couldn't get from Ennis and it killed him. Remember, they were only 39, still young and vital. I'm 58 and still feel young with the vital dragging it's ass a little bit. ;D
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I don't think Jack will ever give up on Ennis, he's caught no matter how hard he tries to fish in other ponds. Jack is clearly gay if you read Annie's story. In the story Ennis says, "I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you." (He's been j**kin off over the years thinking of Jack) "You do it with other guys? Jack?"
" "Shit no," said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls. not rolling his own." " I think that is what the scene with the rodeo clown at the bar was all about. Jack hit on him and was rebuffed, walked away only to probably try somewhere else. BUT, for all his sexual needs, his most important emotional needs were with Ennis. The layers and layers of this film and story just blow me away.
excellent quote, also what still bothers me is the whole thing with Randell, I still have a feeling that Laureen was behind all of that nonesense, I paid close attention to that scene yesterday, and it comes across as Randell was simply prodding Jack so to let Laureen know that her Hubby was up to no good, although she surely had some indication as described in the book. any thought on this???
OK.. I know this is way out there, but hear me out...maybe somewhere in Jack's subconscious, maybe he didn't even realize it, he wanted to get caught and have happen to him what happened to the man in Ennis' story. Maybe that was the only way he knew how to quit Ennis, just to not exist anymore and be in pain I know it is far fetched, but I have thought on this a lot and it keeps coming up in my mind? I don't know!
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If you love someone, set them free. If they come back to you, then their yours. If they don't, they never were. Ennis told Jack he couldn't stand this anymore. The last thing Jack would ever want to do was cause him any more pain. So he decided to give Ennis a chance to be free. Ennis loved Jack so much that he was willing to return to him. The proof was written on the postcard he sent to Jack about their next meeting.
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OK.. I know this is way out there, but hear me out...maybe somewhere in Jack's subconscious, maybe he didn't even realize it, he wanted to get caught and have happen to him what happened to the man in Ennis' story. Maybe that was the only way he knew how to quit Ennis, just to not exist anymore and be in pain I know it is far fetched, but I have thought on this a lot and it keeps coming up in my mind? I don't know!
I think this is a very interesting idea. Thanks for putting it out there.
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Jack, as his father reminded us, wanted to bring Randall up to Lightning Flat and divorce Madame Calculator. That last scene with Ennis breaking down "Why can't you just let me be" broke Jack's heart, him wanting so badly what Ennis could never give him. Sometimes we have to let those we love go, and maybe he got to this point because he couldn't keep hurting Ennis. :'( Titus.
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I agree Titus. During the film we see times when Ennis is hurting and Jack tries as best he can to comfort him, often being pushed away. I think he reached a stage where he thought of himself as the thorn in Ennis' side and their relationship could never be more than just snatched moments. The realisation of this prompted him to try and make a life for himself and hopefully give Ennis some peace, but IMO Ennis couldn't find peace without Jack. Jack COULD try and move on and make something of a new life with Randall (all the time loving Ennis of course) but Ennis could never rekindle these feelings with someone else. Jack WAS love to Ennis and no-one else could compete x :'(
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Lots of interesting ideas here. I do believe, though, that Jack was almost resigned when he was rejected by Ennis after the Divorce. He went to Mexico for spite - a kind of ending and new beginning. The conflist (the film and ss are full of confict) is that Jack can't just let go - can't just release him. He does as a pragmatic gesture, but his heart is consumed with this man. After he scold Ennis, the last time they see each other, Jack is venting this conflict and frustration but look at how he reacts as soon as Ennis reacts. He can't stand to see Ennis in pain ... hurt, even at the expense of his own feelings. I think Jack would have gone on with the status quo because he was so consumed with Ennis.
The associated point to all this is that Jack "tried" to disclose to Ennis what he was doing. Ennis talked of putting the blocks on some girl in Riverton. Jack's version is that he is doing the neighbor's ranch foreman's wife or something - when he's actually doing the ranch foreman. I thought this was very telling - Jack wouldn't be able to stand how Ennis would react, but although somehwat resigned, wasn't going to give up even the faintest hint of a shot with Ennis. All yuo have to do is think about how Jack looks at Ennis in his flashback of the 1st time on Brokeback when Ennis hugs him from behind "satisfying some shared and sexless hunger" and Ennis rides away. And ,,, the way Ennis' life ends up, alone, beaten down, consumed with only a memory of what could have been ...
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actually, when i saw the movie the first time, when jack's dad told ennis that jack "was going to bring another one here" i thought it was like an insult. the reason is that...if ennis was that special to jack, and jack wanted to build his whole life with ennis, how the heck could jack just pick someone else to replace ennis like that???????????????????????? i was all choked up by that scene...
but when ennis went upstairs to discover the two shirts, i've realized that hey...jack didn't move on at all. if he had, then those 2 shirts would have been gone, meaning, he WAS READY to move on with someone else...
regardless, it's sooo sad :-( :-(
drew
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actually, when i saw the movie the first time, when jack's dad told ennis that jack "was going to bring another one here" i thought it was like an insult. the reason is that...if ennis was that special to jack, and jack wanted to build his whole life with ennis, how the heck could jack just pick someone else to replace ennis like that???????????????????????? i was all choked up by that scene...
but when ennis went upstairs to discover the two shirts, i've realized that hey...jack didn't move on at all. if he had, then those 2 shirts would have been gone, meaning, he WAS READY to move on with someone else...
regardless, it's sooo sad :-( :-(
drew
Hi drew, welcome and thanks for your first post. No one knows for sure if Jack was going to bring another fellow to built the ranch. One thing is for sure though Jack's love for Ennis didn't change as you have suggested.
Welcome and enjoy your time here.
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Hi ethan ;)
Thank you for welcoming me to the Board :) yes, such a beautiful love story...but so sad :'(
drew
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But often we love someone we can't have and end up "making do" with the one we're with. I wouldn't have minded curling up with Randall Malone :P. Jack always loved Ennis, but that didn't keep him faithful. Sometimes when you love someone that much, you just got to "leave'em be". Titus.
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Titus, weally???? we gotta make-do with what we have, rather than whom we want. *sigh* i'm too much of a romanticist, rather than a realist :-)
drew
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Titus, weally? we gotta make-do with what we have, rather than whom we want. *sigh*
Not speaking from my own personal experience, but yeah, life is full of unhappy people who lost and settled. Jack could never have all of Ennis, it was measured and doled out once or twice a year, so he made do best he could in Mexican alleyways and with hunky cowboy Malone as substitutes. All a really "unsatisfactory situation", but that's my take on it. How else can you love someone totally and screw everybody else? :( Cheers, Titus.
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Hey Titus... i'm not sure how to respond to ur posting...i guess, i've never been that deeply in love before, to face that difficult decision...do i wait for ennis, or move one with someone else???? but...since that story was so beautiful, that part 'bout jack moving on...at first, it was really painful for me to take...but later, i've realized that jack didn't move on... :-)
drew
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Hey Titus... i'm not sure how to respond to ur posting...i guess, i've never been that deeply in love before, to face that difficult decision...do i wait for ennis, or move one with someone else???? but...since that story was so beautiful, that part 'bout jack moving on...at first, it was really painful for me to take...but later, i've realized that jack didn't move on... :-)
drew
Jack had sex with the mexican boy just to take revenge. He drove a lot of hours crying in despair. He was out of control
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Madisondel,
OK.. I know this is way out there, but hear me out...maybe somewhere in Jack's subconscious, maybe he didn't even realize it, he wanted to get caught and have happen to him what happened to the man in Ennis' story. Maybe that was the only way he knew how to quit Ennis, just to not exist anymore and be in pain I know it is far fetched, but I have thought on this a lot and it keeps coming up in my mind? I don't know!
I don't think it's way out there. I was thinking along the lines of Jack being so brokenhearted that he got reckless and "slipped up".
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Jack had sex with the mexican boy just to take revenge. He drove a lot of hours crying in despair. He was out of control
I agree, don't forget his line:
Tell you what... truth is, sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it...
Jack never decided, he tried some other ways but, he was always coming back to Ennis, he loved him.
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Madisondel,
OK.. I know this is way out there, but hear me out...maybe somewhere in Jack's subconscious, maybe he didn't even realize it, he wanted to get caught and have happen to him what happened to the man in Ennis' story. Maybe that was the only way he knew how to quit Ennis, just to not exist anymore and be in pain I know it is far fetched, but I have thought on this a lot and it keeps coming up in my mind? I don't know!
I don't think it's way out there. I was thinking along the lines of Jack being so brokenhearted that he got reckless and "slipped up".
Yea. He was just so desperate. I guess that is another thing to love about this movie...it actually makes you think! So many people can see so many different things, there are so many possibilities. Poor Jack & Ennis...they were so tortured! And now so am I!
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I guess it happens. Jake G mentioned in an interview that Jack died when he knew that he would never be able have the 'sweet life' with Ennis. This could have been in the divorce scene or the last scene. I suppose when one knows they can't be with the one they truly love nothing really matters and they become careless. That is if he died the way Ennis thinks.
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I guess it happens. Jake G mentioned in an interview that Jack died when he knew that he would never be able have the 'sweet life' with Ennis. This could have been in the divorce scene or the last scene. I suppose when one knows they can't be with the one they truly love nothing really matters and they become careless. That is if he died the way Ennis thinks.
I wish we could know more about that scene in the previews that is not in the movie. The one with the two men in it, they look like they are at a garage or somthing like that. I keep going back and forth. Sometimes I think that it is just Ennis' imagination beacuse of what he saw and then other times I think "That is just such a freaky way to die" and my mind goes back to the missing scene.
I'm sorry, I'm getting off on another subject.
Either way, Annie Proulx and Ang Lee are genius.
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OK.. I know this is way out there, but hear me out...maybe somewhere in Jack's subconscious, maybe he didn't even realize it, he wanted to get caught and have happen to him what happened to the man in Ennis' story. Maybe that was the only way he knew how to quit Ennis, just to not exist anymore and be in pain I know it is far fetched, but I have thought on this a lot and it keeps coming up in my mind? I don't know!
This doesn't seem so out there, if you ask me. Like romeshvr mentioned, Jake once said that Jack died when he knew he couldn't live with Ennis. On second viewing, it really hit me that he was right. I mean, look at his face when Ennis drives away in their last scene. This is a man who's dead inside. I think his resignation came slowly with time - trying to get his needs elsewhere, trying to settle with someone else, but I think he still hung on this tiny hope that maybe it would happen. But after that scene, I believe he realized he had to let him go. And there's no way he could fully live after this.
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I remember when Diana talked about how lonliness was the biggest disease
there is. I think Jack had had enough of it.
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In the last scene when they are together the change in Jack was so saddening - he looked so deflated leaning against his truck - all his lingering hopes had finally ebbed away in that last exchange and he looked how he felt - sad, dejected, OLD. Utterly heartbreaking scene :'(
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[[/quote]
This doesn't seem so out there, if you ask me. Like romeshvr mentioned, Jake once said that Jack died when he knew he couldn't live with Ennis. On second viewing, it really hit me that he was right. I mean, look at his face when Ennis drives away in their last scene. This is a man who's dead inside. I think his resignation came slowly with time - trying to get his needs elsewhere, trying to settle with someone else, but I think he still hung on this tiny hope that maybe it would happen. But after that scene, I believe he realized he had to let him go. And there's no way he could fully live after this.
OMG I never thought of this but it seems so right the way you put it. Jack commited a kind of suicide and in the end Ennis must have understood. Tears falling like rain now. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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For me after my 8th viewing today, he made up his mind to move on, to "let [Ennis] be" as he is standing there after their fight as he watches him drive away. He's planning it in his head at that time. If you remember right before the fight he said he's going to go visit his parents, this would be the time old man twist mentioned that jack said about bringing the neighbor up etc.
So what I think happened, is in that fight Jack knew he could no longer do it, Ennis wouldn't change and to keep them both from going through anymore pain, he dedided that he would move on and go after the neighbor. He then told his parents about it. Once back in texas, he made his move, which I'm assuming didn't go over as he expected and what got him killed. I wasn't convinced in the bench scene the neighbor was flirting, but i can easy see that jack would have thought of it that way.
I like to think, that even if things did work out for jack, that when he got ennis's postcard he'd still have run back to him
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Some interesting thoughts here - but I still feel that Jack didn't totally give up on Ennis - In the book for that scene it states: "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved". Yes, Jack may have tried/thought about moving on but as we find out from the "Old Man" who I think is trying to make Ennis feel bad - but if Jack had tried to move on don't you think he would have destroyed the shirts? - maybe that's what the mother is trying to tell/show Ennis - that Jack cared enough to still hold on to the shirts.
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Yes, the film is so subtle with countless hints at so many subtexts that we can go on forever contemplating, wondering, guessing, and hoping! Maybe that's the magic of Ang Lee's film. No matter what, Brokeback Mountain, though it can't be found on any map, remains a bittersweet heart-breaking story that we'll carry with us forever.
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This posting is makin the Cowboy mighty sad at work :'(
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don't be sad at work! Be joyous that Ang Lee's magnificent film has brought us all together, sharing our thoughts, insights, and feelings.
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I wasn't convinced in the bench scene the neighbor was flirting, but I can easy see that jack would have thought of it that way.
Malone was fishing, but it wasn't for Bass! I think the door is wide open for someone else to figure out what was going on between the two of them. Jack, as you remember, was already screwing half of Mexico, had even been up to sex with other guys during the first four years he was apart from Ennis (riding more than bulls-AP). In a small podunk like Childress it only takes a little suspicion for things to turn nasty. I can't imagine LaShawn being the soul of discretion if she found randall out.
Jack must have taken Randall seriously, gotten pretty involved if he told his parents about his scheme to get divorced and bring him up to Lightning Flat. You don't do that sort of life planning if you haven't even shagged yet. I think Randall was his get out so he could leave Ennis in peace. Whether he could actually do it is another question. We have to remember that Annie Proulx leaves a lot of doors open as to what could have happened. She wants us to wrestle with all the possibilities and implications, not have it all sorted and tidy. That's what makes this story so damn hard to take. Titus.
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I wasn't convinced in the bench scene the neighbor was flirting, but I can easy see that jack would have thought of it that way.
Malone was fishing, but it wasn't for Bass! I think the door is wide open for someone else to figure out what was going on between the two of them. Jack, as you remember, was already screwing half of Mexico, had even been up to sex with other guys during the first four years he was apart from Ennis (riding more than bulls-AP). In a small podunk like Childress it only takes a little suspicion for things to turn nasty. I can't imagine LaShawn being the soul of discretion if she found randall out.
Jack must have taken Randall seriously, gotten pretty involved if he told his parents about his scheme to get divorced and bring him up to Lightning Flat. You don't do that sort of life planning if you haven't even shagged yet. I think Randall was his get out so he could leave Ennis in peace. Whether he could actually do it is another question. We have to remember that Annie Proulx leaves a lot of doors open as to what could have happened. She wants us to wrestle with all the possibilities and implications, not have it all sorted and tidy. That's what makes this story so damn hard to take. Titus.
That was really well put. I think you nailed it on the head. I do think that the Randall thing didn't work out though since Jack's dad said it never came to pass. It was an attempt to leave, which then I think led to
Jack's death somehow. I think that is where he got "found out". Maybe he and Randall were seen together?
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Some interesting thoughts here - but I still feel that Jack didn't totally give up on Ennis - In the book for that scene it states: "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved". Yes, Jack may have tried/thought about moving on but as we find out from the "Old Man" who I think is trying to make Ennis feel bad - but if Jack had tried to move on don't you think he would have destroyed the shirts? - maybe that's what the mother is trying to tell/show Ennis - that Jack cared enough to still hold on to the shirts.
Yes. I agree with you to a point. He didn't really give up on Ennis and his love for him - but I'm sure he knew there was no way Ennis would ever accept to live together, to live their love openly. After their fight, he understood that, I think. Of course, he couldn't let go, but I believe something in him died when he realized he'd never really be with Ennis. When he tried to move on, his heart wasn't really in it. We all know that one sign from Ennis, and he would have gone to him without a second thought. But I don't think he had any hope left. Their fight was the last straw.
Personnally, when Jack talks about the rancher's wife to Ennis, I was pretty sure it was really about Randall. Whether he decided to live with him before or after the fight, I can't really figure out. But it was just settling.
Yes, the film is so subtle with countless hints at so many subtexts that we can go on forever contemplating, wondering, guessing, and hoping! Maybe that's the magic of Ang Lee's film. No matter what, Brokeback Mountain, though it can't be found on any map, remains a bittersweet heart-breaking story that we'll carry with us forever.
I love this post, and this is what I love about this story. There's so many subtleties in it. We all have different thoughts about it, because we're all different people. And we're all right. That's the beauty of it.
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Lilie, I do agree with you on Randall being the "rancher's wife" I thought that that's who Jack was talking about the first time I saw the movie.
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If you love someone, set them free. If they come back to you, then their yours. If they don't, they never were. Ennis told Jack he couldn't stand this anymore. The last thing Jack would ever want to do was cause him any more pain. So he decided to give Ennis a chance to be free. Ennis loved Jack so much that he was willing to return to him. The proof was written on the postcard he sent to Jack about their next meeting.
Ennis: "Sorry I can't stand much anymore, Jack..."
Ohhhhh...reading this makes me cry again. I think you are right.
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I agree, don't forget his line:
Tell you what... truth is, sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it...
Jack never decided, he tried some other ways but, he was always coming back to Ennis, he loved him.
Ahhhh...so much like the lyric's to the song ("Melissa"-Allman Brothers Band) playing in the background when Ennis and Cassie dance while Alma Jr. waits at the table...
"Knowing many, loving none,"
"Bearing sorrow havin' fun,"
"But back home he'll always run,"
(...to his true love: Ennis...)
sam-->bawling now...
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I agree, don't forget his line:
Tell you what... truth is, sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it...
Jack never decided, he tried some other ways but, he was always coming back to Ennis, he loved him.
Ahhhh...so much like the lyric's to the song ("Melissa"-Allman Brothers Band) playing in the background when Ennis and Cassie dance while Alma Jr. waits at the table...
"Knowing many, loving none,"
"Bearing sorrow havin' fun,"
"But back home he'll always run,"
(...to his true love: Ennis...)
sam-->bawling now...
Same here,
SOB! :'( :'( :'(
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Lemme hug you, you big ole softy cowboy...we can sob together... :-*
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Sam, I thought the song playing while they were acually dncing was "I don't want to say goodbye" with Teddy thompson...then the scen dissoves to Jake and Randall outside. To me this was a aturninga point, mayabe the turning point - maybe it's jsut giving us a hint of what's to come.
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Sam, I thought the song playing while they were acually dncing was "I don't want to say goodbye" with Teddy thompson...then the scen dissoves to Jake and Randall outside. To me this was a aturninga point, mayabe the turning point - maybe it's jsut giving us a hint of what's to come.
hi jerasjr.!
Nope, "I Don't Want To Say Goodbye" by Teddy Thompson is the song that is playing while Jack dances with Lashawn. (A completely different scene.)
I was referring to the other scene where Ennis picks up Alma Jr. for the weekly outing (along with Cassie). The scene where Cassie asks Alma Jr. if she thinks Ennis will ever settle down again...
The two women have their short and private 'girl-to-girl' conversation:
Cassie: "Your daddy ever goin' a see fit to settle down again?"
Alma Jr.: "I don't know..."
Alma Jr.: "Maybe he's not the marryin' kind."
Cassie: "You don't think so? Or you don't think I'm the one for him?"
Alma Jr.: "You're good enough..."
Cassie" "You don't say much, but you get your point across!"
Alma Jr.: "Sorry. I didn't mean to be rude."
Then, Ennis returns to the table and Cassie grabs his arm and pulls him up to the dance floor while saying:
"Uh, you're stayin' on your feet, cowboy!"
The saddish tune playing from the jukebox while they dance in this one is: "Melissa". ;)
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He didn't really give up on Ennis and his love for him - but I'm sure he knew there was no way Ennis would ever accept to live together, to live their love openly. After their fight, he understood that, I think. Of course, he couldn't let go, but I believe something in him died when he realized he'd never really be with Ennis. When he tried to move on, his heart wasn't really in it. We all know that one sign from Ennis, and he would have gone to him without a second thought. But I don't think he had any hope left. Their fight was the last straw.
Personnally, when Jack talks about the rancher's wife to Ennis, I was pretty sure it was really about Randall. Whether he decided to live with him before or after the fight, I can't really figure out.
Yes, I agree with you Lilie. I don't think that Jack 'gave-up' on Ennis for 100%. I think that he just resigned himself at that moment in time to what you say: that there was no way Ennis would ever accept to live together, to live their love openly...
I therefore think that he (taking into consideration what Ennis had said to him at the end of their fight on the Mountain: "Sorry I can't stand much anymore, Jack.") decided to make do with what we often call in Life: "second best"...
(Sam wipes a tear away here...)
I think that Jack, shocked and deeply pained by Ennis' inner turmoil regarding their relationship (revealed to him during that final fight on the Mountain...) finally decides to let Ennis go free...purely and completely out of Love...
And that he decides to move-on with his own life at that moment, only now replacing 'Ennis' with 'Randall'...(-->Randall being: the second best choice)
Of course, this is NOT what Jack truly wanted...what he had hoped for all those years...but...
like many of the other characters in this multi-facetted film who had had to also make do with 'second-best' (Alma, Lureen!)...he resigns himself to embracing 'second best' (as best he could)...
And, we all know what happens to you when you have to decide for just 'second best'...you slowly lose interest...get demotivated...become depressed...and feel sad...
which sometimes leads to: becoming 'careless' or 'sloppy' in area's where previously you were always 'sharp' and 'alert'... It's so easy to then take on a lightly stoic: "I just don't care anymore..." attitude...
Perhaps, this is what happened that led to Jack's tragic ending...
Maybe he 'approached' the wrong guys (those "killer mechanics"?)...'said' the wrong thing....'gave-out' the wrong impression...leading to:
the dreaded 'tire iron' scene... BIG SIGH!
We will never know for sure...it's all up to the viewer's personal interpretation. Proulx, McMurtry and Ossana, Lee all made sure of this...
That's what makes this such a wonderful picture! It's all left up to the audience's discretion.
If you ask me, I don't think that Jack ever entirely gives up on Ennis. I think...that he still hopes that someday...maybe, long, long aways in the future...that maybe Ennis will have a change of mind...
I think that no matter what happens on 'the outside'/'the surface' (for example: eventually moving to Lightning Flat with Randall...), deep down inside, Jack still holds on to this sliver of hope...(that's why he never discards the two shirts)
It's truly heartbreaking that now that Jack is gone...we will never know...Jack died young...a mere 39...with a crack in his heart...unfulfilled...never ever having a full chance to resolve this poignant issue...
Jack: unresolved, unfulfilled...with lead in his heart...
Ennis: idem ditto
And that's what makes this story so awfully, awfully sad...
BM: shows us how ignorance and intolerance can force people to deny their love and deny who they are...shows us what can happen when love is hidden or denied...and spins us a tale of love stumbled into, love thwarted, and love held sorrowfully in the heart...
sam
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Sam, you're right...I don't want to say goodbye, plays through my head so much that it seems to be part of every scene.
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Oh, Sam, you're making me :'( :'( :'(! You are soooo right! Spot on, mate! What makes it all so incredibly tragic. Titus.
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Like some I think Jack had enough when he went to Mexico...but I gotta wonder...I know Jack would have always loved Ennis, that's a fact to me...but if he hadn't died....would he have ended up at his Daddy's place with the foreman or someone else? I dont know the exact time frame....did his death keep his from the foreman and him moving up there?
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Sam,
Your post made me cry! :'(
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[
OMG I never thought of this but it seems so right the way you put it. Jack commited a kind of suicide and in the end Ennis must have understood. Tears falling like rain now. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
[/quote]
In chatting with someone else on this web I got a new perspective. Wish I could remember who it was so I could give him or her credit. This was it: In the lastscene of Jack and Ennis together Jack says he is going from their to his parents ranch. He is si devastated by Ennis, that he decides he is going to at least up the ante with Randall. So, he tells his father that he has a new "one", who is going to come live with him on the ranch. This is a knee jerk reaction, that would probably never comne to pass. He is so distraught that he becomes very reckless and cavalier in his actions - probably drinking too much (as Lureen says he did), flirting with the wrong people and not covering his tracks with Randall. A death wish - one step short of suicide. Before he can see that Ennis still wants to stand it as witnessed by his postcard, he is dead. Very, very tragic. I don't think Jack is a slut. He was just doing what he could to survive. :( - Nancy
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Lilie, I do agree with you on Randall being the "rancher's wife" I thought that that's who Jack was talking about the first time I saw the movie.
Lillie, Jack had to say it was the rancher's wife not the rancher, because that was acceptible by Jack/Ennis standards. You could be with another woman, but not with another man. I don't think his plans were solid and I don't think he would have ever followed through with divorcing and living with Randall. He had gone to his parent's ranch straight from the fight. He was hurt and shooting his mouth off on the rebound. Poor Jack!
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Like some I think Jack had enough when he went to Mexico...but I gotta wonder...I know Jack would have always loved Ennis, that's a fact to me...but if he hadn't died....would he have ended up at his Daddy's place with the foreman or someone else? I dont know the exact time frame....did his death keep his from the foreman and him moving up there?
I don't think Jack would have ever ended up at his father's place with Randall. That was just a declaration made in the heat of the moment in his pain. He said he was going to his parent's after their last paring. I think they would have continued on as they were. They were too in love to give up on each other. -Nancy
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Jack, as his father reminded us, wanted to bring Randall up to Lightning Flat and divorce Madame Calculator. That last scene with Ennis breaking down "Why can't you just let me be" broke Jack's heart, him wanting so badly what Ennis could never give him. Sometimes we have to let those we love go, and maybe he got to this point because he couldn't keep hurting Ennis. :'( Titus.
1. *Sobs*
2. He he ... Madame Calculator ;D
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Lilie, I do agree with you on Randall being the "rancher's wife" I thought that that's who Jack was talking about the first time I saw the movie.
Lillie, Jack had to say it was the rancher's wife not the rancher, because that was acceptible by Jack/Ennis standards. You could be with another woman, but not with another man. I don't think his plans were solid and I don't think he would have ever followed through with divorcing and living with Randall.
Oh, I know. I know he couldn't say it, especially not to Ennis - the way he reacts when he learns about Jack going to other men shows that. He was trying to tell him something with the rancher's wife thing, to be as honest as he could, without really telling him. He was scared it would push him away, I think.
Sam - great post. I very much agree with the "not caring anymore" idea. Living without Ennis wasn't really living.
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I personally think taht he may have not quit him never i mean 20 years and he never quit him because he loved him maybe he was indeed trying to build a lit without Ennis but sooner or later he was going to realize that the person in his heart was ennis and no one else. and i think he may have tried but for sure he was unable he didn't know how to quit Ennis from his heart.
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That is if he died the way Ennis thinks.
Please think of the way Lureen described the way Jack dies. There is no way that could have happened.
If the tire was on rim and the rim was on the wheel while he was pumping it up, that would mean the tire exploding would have had to shear off at least 5 lug nuts to come off of the truck and hit Jack in the face.
If the tire was on the rim and the whole thing was on the ground while pumping it up, that would mean the tire and rim would have to have jumped up at least 5 feet into the air to have hit Jack in the face.
People do not generally kneel on the ground while pumping up a tire. Normally you have one foot on the pump stand holding it down while you move the plunger up and down.
It just could not have happened the way Lureen said.
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I read somewhere that Jack was an example of what happens when showed yourself in that time they became him as a lesson of that are the limits of the homophobia unfortunately i'm of the belief that he may have been killed the more i investigate the more i realize, but i don't know why some people thinks this look at this thread in annieproulxs forum
copied from www.annieproulxs.com
Please answer my questions, they have been keeping me up at night.
a) How did Ennis know it had been the "tire iron"?
shamir wrote:
b) Did Lureen know her husband had been murdered?
Ennis was only guessing that Jack's "accident was done with THE " tire iron " since he had tire-iron phobia about being found out that he "queer" like "Earl" of the ranching couple, Earl and Roy, who was murdered. Ennis had been afraid of being murdered with a tire iron since he was a boy.
I and probably a million other people, who apparently aren't participating in this forum, believe that Jack was not "DECEASED" at all. And that was because in the story, there was never any proof that Jack was actually dead.
Since Ennis had that constant fear of the "tire iron," I think that Jack used a phony story about changing of a truck tire ON A BACK ROAD to make Ennis think he was dead. And, since a tire iron must be used to change tires, it made sense to Ennis that Jack was murdered with one.
shamir wrote:
c) How was Jack's homosexuality discovered?
Oh, in the short story, the only one who discovers that Jack Twist likes to have sex with guys is Ennis Del Mar. While Ennis's ex-wife, Alama, calls Jack Twist "Jack Nasty," she is probably just assuming that Jack and Ennis were doing the "nasty" with other women since they certainly never actually went trout fishing on their 'fishing trips."
Nobody else ever makes a statement to imply that Jack is a homosexual.
shamir wrote:
d) Who was this ranch buddy Jack's father talks about Jack wanting to bring home to help with the ranch? A boyfriend?
Actually, the Texas rancher friend of Jack is never mentioned. He has no name in the book. And, I think that the "this spring" in the words of John C. Twist, refers to the spring which is either yet to come or Ennis is at the Twist homestead in the Spring of 1984.
shamir wrote:
Did Jack give up on Ennis?
Thank you
Yes, according to the way that I read the short story, sometime after May 1983, after they had gone their separate ways, Jack decided to "Let be, let be."
In making that decision, since Ennis would never give in and spend the rest of his life with Jack, he decided that he needed to get on with his life without Ennis.
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to me what doesn't make sense there was the mother and the dad way of acting jack was dead but well people think what they want. what do you think about this thoughts?
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Who is this Yahoo answering those questions on Annie's web page? He is an idiot.
For example:
I and probably a million other people, who apparently aren't participating in this forum, believe that Jack was not "DECEASED" at all. And that was because in the story, there was never any proof that Jack was actually dead.
Since Ennis had that constant fear of the "tire iron," I think that Jack used a phony story about changing of a truck tire ON A BACK ROAD to make Ennis think he was dead. And, since a tire iron must be used to change tires, it made sense to Ennis that Jack was murdered with one.
What a bloody idiot!
Of course Jack was dead. How could he get his wife and his Mother and father to lie for him? Where did the ashes come from should Ennis have wanted to see them? Suppose Ennis would have gotten a copy of the sheriff's report about the "accident." Why would Jack's mother have let Ennis take her "living" son's shirt?
Jack is dead. Of that there can be no doubt.
shamir wrote:
c) How was Jack's homosexuality discovered?
Oh, in the short story, the only one who discovers that Jack Twist likes to have sex with guys is Ennis Del Mar. While Ennis's ex-wife, Alama, calls Jack Twist "Jack Nasty," she is probably just assuming that Jack and Ennis were doing the "nasty" with other women since they certainly never actually went trout fishing on their 'fishing trips."
This guy is a true loon!
Alma didn't think Jack and Ennis were "doing the '"nasty"' with other women." For crying out loud she saw them, Jack and Ennis, kissing!!!! Why would she have thought there were other women involved???????
What a total jerk!
Did Jack give up on Ennis?
Yes, according to the way that I read the short story, sometime after May 1983, after they had gone their separate ways, Jack decided to "Let be, let be."
In making that decision, since Ennis would never give in and spend the rest of his life with Jack, he decided that he needed to get on with his life without Ennis.
FINALLY! Something I can agree with.
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This is proof that "idiots" watch our film too!
Maybe these are the ones who misconstrue the whole Brokeback Mountain story and voted against it in the 2006 Oscar race...
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I don't think Jack was really going to move on, he would come back to Ennis...always back to Ennis, Had he taken Randall up to daddys ranch he would have cheated oon Randall with Ennis
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i agree to i think that he would never give up Ennis, that why he said "i wish i knew how to quit you"
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I don't think Jack was really going to move on, he would come back to Ennis...always back to Ennis, Had he taken Randall up to daddys ranch he would have cheated oon Randall with Ennis
I would like, with all my heart, to think that is true Esme. But, I don't. I think Jack had finally decided Ennis was in too much pain over this relationship and he wanted to spare Ennis any more.
If you remember it was Randall that was the aggressor. Jack knew with Randall he COULD have a close and constant relationship because that seemed to be what Randall (unlike Ennis) wanted.
However, having said that, I think Ennis would always be in Jack's heart. At least that is what I NEED to believe.
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However, having said that, I think Ennis would always be in Jack's heart. At least that is what I NEED to believe
Yes, but I think like so may of us, jack thinks he wants it safe untill the true, but perhaps cruel, love beckons once again :-\
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All your responses have got me thinking again.....part of the magic of the film is that there are so many open-ended details in the story; life is so complicated and BBM reflects this with every word in the script and every visual on the screen. I think your emphasis on Jack's line, "I wish I could quit you..." is important; the subtext seems to be, " I wish I could, but of course I can't; and I know how much pain you are in, so I'm going to leave you alone; but my need for a partner is so strong that I must move on just to stay sane... however, you know that my heart of hearts will always be with you, Ennis....."
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i think Jack want to quit Ennis, but he juz couldn't...
he may left Ennis for sometime but after all, he will come back to Ennis, his only true love!
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Well I have a few interesting "interpretations" of what happened.
1. Jack is definitely dead. Jack was too nice a guy (and probably not all that smart) to orchestrate such a massive fraud. He'd have to get his wife and parents to lie and then somehow manufacture fake funeral notices. In fact he'd have to get the whole of Newsome and Lightning Flat in on the charade just in case Ennis wandered into either town and someone let slip that Jack was alive. A bizarre assertion, really.
2. The scene with Randall outside the dance hall...Jack goes extremely still and quiet even though Randall appears to be offering him something "illicit" at that point. For me, I felt that Jack purposely didn't respond in any way to Randall's "idea" about going fishing either because of his loyalty to Ennis or because it seemed like a "bait". I reckon Randall just planted a seed of an idea in Jack's head in that scene, but it was a while before Jack acted on it.
3. Jack and Ennis' last night together, when Jack says right after his revelation about the "thing" with the "Ranchers wife"...he goes to say "truth is..." then pauses. I believe it was on the tip of his tongue to confess he was seeing Randall
(truth is....it's the rancher not the wife) but can't bring himself to say it and continues "...sometimes I miss you so much I can't stand it". I believe he wanted to tell Ennis but decided not to so they could both enjoy what would be their last night together without heartbreak or a fight.
4. Following from the above, I believe that this is why he finally blows up at Ennis' intransigence after Ennis cancels August.
We witness a stunning piece of direction by Ang Lee where the camera pans across Jack in such a way that it really tells us there has been a seismic shift in Jack's tolerance of Ennis. In my opinion he decides finally reacts because he has Randall.
He's angry because he can't have what he wants with Ennis, but has had to settle for Randall. Randall's existence means Jack can break up with Ennis because he could get what he wants somewhere else. I don't think Jack wants to leave Ennis, but cancelling August was the straw that broke the camel's back.
5. I also agree that after the "flashback" and the older Jack watched Ennis drive off in his busted up pick-up, he's deciding there and then to let Ennis be free of him. It's definitely a washed-out, gutted, exasperated expression on his face. Ennis is so torn up about Jack, the only peace he can give him is to let him be. Had Jack not died, the postcard might have said he wasn't available and this probably would have continued until Ennis got the hint. I found it odd that Ennis sent Jack a postcard after their fight. They both seemed to have made it clear by the lake that neither of them could continue in that "bitch of an unsatisfactory situation".
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well sometimes people said things that hurt each other, that is what happened to ennis he didn't want to hurt Jack but he did, it is true that it as a bitch unsatisfactory situation but it was the only way that to ennis mind they can be together.
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As so many others have said , no-one knows exactly what would have happened. The reason it resonates with all of us is the intensity of the love which has cost both men so much. After someone as special as Ang Lee saying Jack and Ennis are real people to him , i feel justified in the emotional connection i've made to them.
Brokeback Mountain is such a story of immense power that it shows us we are only really alive when we love --- I've never known a more powerful work of art that deals with this core part of all of us. For those of us who have been lucky enough to find it, and are able to live it , it reinforces how lucky we are. For others ,who haven't ,it can make them ache for it and swear not to make Ennis's mistakes.
For me , Jack's line --- "I wish i knew how to quit you" shows how much of him is part of Ennis--- he doesn't say "I wish I could quit you" --- he can't even imagine really being able to do so. The tragedy is Jack could never have been happy with anyone else. Earlier,when Ennis talks about the power of their feelings "there's no reins on this one" its an understanding that neither can really fight it. How do you leave what has become part of you ?
It's possible Jack has decided to stop the pain and let Ennis go, but my sense is this would be out of a feeling of defeat and maybe self sacrifice --- I don't believe he could stick it out. When Jack goes with the Mexican, the look of resigned defeat on his face is so strong. No pleasure, just an empty longing.
If it really was the end of their time together , it would differ from the interpretation I have of where their relationship is when Jack dies. I take this from both the movie and short story .The tragedy is , even after a massive explosion of emotion , " nothing ended , nothing begun" --- nothing changes. They reshape things back to where they had been . But each time they had met in the future , the sadness would grow --- and I think parts of both of them would slowly die.
Sadly, I think Jack's death is inevitable.
GOSH , JUST READ THIS OVER --- NEED TO GO AND THINK HAPPY THOUGHTS OF THEIR EARLY TIME ON MOUNTAIN.
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As so many others have said , no-one knows exactly what would have happened. The reason it resonates with all of us is the intensity of the love which has cost both men so much. After someone as special as Ang Lee saying Jack and Ennis are real people to him , i feel justified in the emotional connection i've made to them.
Brokeback Mountain is such a story of immense power that it shows us we are only really alive when we love --- I've never known a more powerful work of art that deals with this core part of all of us. For those of us who have been lucky enough to find it, and are able to live it , it reinforces how lucky we are. For others ,who haven't ,it can make them ache for it and swear not to make Ennis's mistakes.
For me , Jack's line --- "I wish i knew how to quit you" shows how much of him is part of Ennis--- he doesn't say "I wish I could quit you" --- he can't even imagine really being able to do so. The tragedy is Jack could never have been happy with anyone else. Earlier,when Ennis talks about the power of their feelings "there's no reins on this one" its an understanding that neither can really fight it. How do you leave what has become part of you ?
It's possible Jack has decided to stop the pain and let Ennis go, but my sense is this would be out of a feeling of defeat and maybe self sacrifice --- I don't believe he could stick it out. When Jack goes with the Mexican, the look of resigned defeat on his face is so strong. No pleasure, just an empty longing.
If it really was the end of their time together , it would differ from the interpretation I have of where their relationship is when Jack dies. I take this from both the movie and short story .The tragedy is , even after a massive explosion of emotion , " nothing ended , nothing begun" --- nothing changes. They reshape things back to where they had been . But each time they had met in the future , the sadness would grow --- and I think parts of both of them would slowly die.
Sadly, I think Jack's death is inevitable.
GOSH , JUST READ THIS OVER --- NEED TO GO AND THINK HAPPY THOUGHTS OF THEIR EARLY TIME ON MOUNTAIN.
Thanks jackie62. Your post is sad, but I love it.
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"I wish i knew how to quit you" shows how much of him is part of Ennis--- he doesn't say "I wish I could quit you" --- he can't even imagine really being able to do so.
I agree, I think Jack wnated to but couln't. He had been hurt again and the line comes from that hurt. But I think even if he started things with Randall he would come to realize that a little bit of Ennis is better than no Ennis at all :'(
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As so many others have said , no-one knows exactly what would have happened. The reason it resonates with all of us is the intensity of the love which has cost both men so much. After someone as special as Ang Lee saying Jack and Ennis are real people to him , i feel justified in the emotional connection i've made to them.
It's possible Jack has decided to stop the pain and let Ennis go, but my sense is this would be out of a feeling of defeat and maybe self sacrifice --- I don't believe he could stick it out. When Jack goes with the Mexican, the look of resigned defeat on his face is so strong. No pleasure, just an empty longing.
If it really was the end of their time together , it would differ from the interpretation I have of where their relationship is when Jack dies. I take this from both the movie and short story .The tragedy is , even after a massive explosion of emotion , " nothing ended , nothing begun" --- nothing changes. They reshape things back to where they had been . But each time they had met in the future , the sadness would grow --- and I think parts of both of them would slowly die.
Sadly, I think Jack's death is inevitable.
Nice post jackie62. I agree with alot that you say...
Jack's face when he walks off with the Mexican, shows a man who is indeed "defeated"...
As he leaves, I see a man who once had high hopes and dreams of a happy life together with Ennis. But we see on his face, that these hopes and dreams have been cruelly yanked away...crushed to pieces...
Jack finally realizes that it is like Ennis always said it would be: a life together with the two of them will never be...
On his sad, expressionless face, we see the cold, blank eyes, completely and utterly devoid of any grain of hope. The eyes of a man, now walking off with a potential (sexual) partner solely to fulfull his "physical" needs...
No warmth, no tenderness, no Love...purely physical...
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Interesting posts everyone....however I have a slightly different take on all of this...
First of all, when Jack see Ennis leave after their emotional last meeting he is tired, devoid of hope, sad, and yes he realizes that it is probably best for both of them if they don't get together again...his expression at seeing Ennis drive off is so painful
He probably will continue his "relationship" with Randall (or whatever other rancher it might be) and casually mentions this to his parents when he visits them(about coming up there with a ranch neighbor)....however he never really has any intention of moving back up to Lighning Flats...how could he? He would be in such close proximity to Ennis...there would be no way he could "stand" it....he would have to seek Ennis out and he would definitely want to start up again...
I wonder if it is possible that Jack was so overwhelmed and despondent that instead of dying in an accident or being beaten with a tire iron he actually took his own life....I know this sounds far-fetched but think about it......Isn't it possible???
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Yes, it's possible, but it's outside of the story line and screenplay, and the film. I think the the film suggests that Jack was murdered and his wife knows it....... Of course there is the possibility, which was mentioned before in the forum, that Jack subconsciously invited death, that he put himself in a position to be killed. So in a subconscious sense, I guess one could call that a suicide......
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Some very interesting posts here! Thanks for your thoughtful contributions, everyone.
About the tire iron: In various interviews the actors and the writers of the screenplay have underlined, that they wanted to keep the question whether it was the tire iron or not open. Ang Lee even said, that he wanted to make it very clear, that what was being shown during the conversation with Lureen was strictly in Ennis's head. We will never know if it was the tire iron or not and that is the beauty of this movie, not only concerning this question, but many others ( i.e. Is Randall the "farmer's wife"? Was Jack really going to let Ennis be? What did Ennis mean with "Jack, I swear"). And the greatness of the movie comes from giving people the space to imagine so many different outcomes. What people think happened usually depends on their personal experiences and what they fervently want to believe in.
monicita
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well said! McMurtry did say that people do die from exploding tires and such, but it's unlikely! And yes, the open ended questions can never be definitively answered, and thus the magic and resonance of the film and original story on the printed page.....
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well said! McMurtry did say that people do die from exploding tires and such, but it's unlikely! And yes, the open ended questions can never be definitively answered, and thus the magic and resonance of the film and original story on the printed page.....
And if all was open and shut what would we discuss here lol
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So true, Esme. Three cheers for the film crew who left a lot to be discussed by us ;D
monicita
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Exactly! Is there anything to discuss about Crash? What you see there is what you get, and that's it! With BBM. the nuances and possibilities are infinite! We'll be spending a long time on that Mountain!
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Great thoughts everyone.
For me , Jack's line --- "I wish i knew how to quit you" shows how much of him is part of Ennis--- he doesn't say "I wish I could quit you" --- he can't even imagine really being able to do so. The tragedy is Jack could never have been happy with anyone else. Earlier,when Ennis talks about the power of their feelings "there's no reins on this one" its an understanding that neither can really fight it. How do you leave what has become part of you ?
Yes, I totally agree with this. That was my point earlier - Jack isn't able to live without Ennis, so when he realizes it will never really happen, it kills him, metaphorically speaking. Trying to live with that and without Ennis ultimately lead to his actual death.
Sadly, I think Jack's death is inevitable.
And sadly, I think you're right. This is the tragedy of it all.
There really wasn't any happy ending possible for Jack and Ennis. I thought about it the other day (but again, when don't I), and I realized that the tragedy of their story is that because of who they are, and because of the society they live in, their story was bound to end tragically the moment they fell in love with each other. It's depressing, but it's their love that ultimately destroyed both their lives, because they couldn't live it fully.
Jackie, very nice post, by the way.
And yes, the open ended questions can never be definitively answered, and thus the magic and resonance of the film and original story on the printed page.....
That's the true beauty of it, yes. :)
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I might be wrong, (if I am, then, someone please correct me!)...but
I thought that in the "Charlie Rose" interview with Ang Lee and Heath, Ang Lee came right out and said that Lureen was LYING when she has that last telephone conversation with Ennis. I was amazed to hear that Lee actually said this right out, since it reveals to us without a doubt that the "tale" of Jack's tragic ending resulting from an exploding tire is a lie. He died another way...NOT the way Lureen says it happened to Ennis on the phone.
In the interview with screenwriters McMurtry and Ossana, they both keep it 'neutral', avoiding giving a definite answer...only asking the interviewer: "What do YOU believe happened?"
Then saying: "Then, that's what you should believe..."
Even actrice Anne (Lureen) on the Oprah show, coyly refused to give a definite answer to the "question"...saying only: "I think it was pretty obvious..."
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I wonder if it is possible that Jack was so overwhelmed and despondent that instead of dying in an accident or being beaten with a tire iron he actually took his own life....I know this sounds far-fetched but think about it......Isn't it possible???
No, I don't think so bubbaluna. I offer this as evidence:
MOVIE CREDITS
Killer Mechanic Gary Lauder
Grease Monkey Christian Frasier
Assailant Cam Sutherland
Mr. Lee cut the scene because he couldn't make it fit seamlessly but the credits prove his intentions.
;)
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lyrics to "mellissa" by the allman brothers
Crossroads, seem to come and go, yeah.
The gypsy flies from coast to coast
Knowing many, loving none,
Bearing sorrow havin’ fun,
But back home he’ll always run
To sweet melissa... mmm...
Freight train, each car looks the same, all the same.
And no one knows the gypsy’s name
No one hears his lonely sigh,
There are no blankets where he lies.
In all his deepest dreams the gypsy flies
With sweet melissa... mmm...
Again the morning’s come,
Again he’s on the run,
Sunbeams shining through his hair,
Appearing not to have a care.
Well, pick up your gear and gypsy roll on, roll on.
Crossroads, will you ever let him go? (lord, lord)
Will you hide the dead man’s ghost,
Or will he lie, beneath the clay,
Or will his spirit roll away?
But I know that he won’t stay without melissa.
Yes I know that he won’t stay without melissa.
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lyrics to "mellissa" by the allman brothers
Crossroads, seem to come and go, yeah.
The gypsy flies from coast to coast
Knowing many, loving none,
Bearing sorrow havin’ fun,
But back home he’ll always run
To sweet melissa... mmm...
Freight train, each car looks the same, all the same.
And no one knows the gypsy’s name
No one hears his lonely sigh,
There are no blankets where he lies.
In all his deepest dreams the gypsy flies
With sweet melissa... mmm...
Again the morning’s come,
Again he’s on the run,
Sunbeams shining through his hair,
Appearing not to have a care.
Well, pick up your gear and gypsy roll on, roll on.
Crossroads, will you ever let him go? (lord, lord)
Will you hide the dead man’s ghost,
Or will he lie, beneath the clay,
Or will his spirit roll away?
But I know that he won’t stay without melissa.
Yes I know that he won’t stay without melissa.
Sooooooo much of Ennis and Jack in this song! It's making me cry again. Thank you for the lyrics sweet_man...
It's so amazing how much careful consideration, willful thought and tremendous effort Ang Lee and the filmmakers put into choosing just the right songs for this film. (Not to mention the well deserved Oscar for best original score won by Santaololla!)
"Crash" might have had a larger film budget, but by long, not so much loving effort or thought for detail was slipped into that film as was in our beloved: "Brokeback Mountain"... The extremely large cast of "Crash" seems to have worked negatively, in this respect...
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When did Jack decide? Maybe he never really did; maybe he was just biding his time for a while......I'm still haunted by the card Ennis sent to reconnect with Jack! and which came back "deceased". When did Ennis send the card? How long after the last meeting with Jack? The card must mean that Ennis, despite the harsh words exchanged at that last get together, was not about to have Jack quit him, and if the card had been sent earlier, maybe it would have precluded Jack looking for another relationship.....what do you think?
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that is true, i saw the movie yesterday again and in the post card he was confirming the day for Jack, it was obviously his own strange way to apologize with him and also make Jack aware that he can't be without him. i still remember when they were on their first "fishing trip" and Jack asked him"How long this will last" and Ennis replied "As long as we can"
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Yes, and doesn't Ennis say something to the effect, "There are no reins on this one...." Now that the film has left my region in NY state, I'll have to wait for the DVD to find more details. I wonder if there's a post mark on the card! So, now I think the discussion of Jack's "decision" to leave Ennis is not so definite at all.....both men are in a constant state of flux.
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Yes, and doesn't Ennis say something to the effect, "There are no reins on this one...." Now that the film has left my region in NY state, I'll have to wait for the DVD to find more details. I wonder if there's a post mark on the card! So, now I think the discussion of Jack's "decision" to leave Ennis is not so definite at all.....both men are in a constant state of flux.
Exactly, they were in the constant state of the flux, there are times when we are in love that no matter the situations we allways have the small light of hope that someday things would change, during their times Jack tried once or twice in the movie to make Ennis move out Texas, because it was more easy for him to convince Ennis there, Ennis was afraid of the Wyoming mind, and jack want him out of that, Jack in his own way was trying to protect ennis.
i think that jack never loose that little light of hope, but he found himself trapped in a loop, he want more than he thought he got, and he wanted to go on. but, Once you find "the one" as much as you tried to escape your heart don't let you. Jack heart was already stolen and was stolen on a tent in brokeback in 1963 and he stole somebody else heart and no matter how unsatisfactory was the situation. he was happy on those moments, probable he could have being happy with the ranch neighbor, but that was just only a replacement, not the real feeling. of what is being in love.
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When did Jack decide? Maybe he never really did; maybe he was just biding his time for a while......I'm still haunted by the card Ennis sent to reconnect with Jack! and which came back "deceased". When did Ennis send the card? How long after the last meeting with Jack? The card must mean that Ennis, despite the harsh words exchanged at that last get together, was not about to have Jack quit him, and if the card had been sent earlier, maybe it would have precluded Jack looking for another relationship.....what do you think?
This is my perspective. Others could and probably will differ.
We have to go back to the last night around the campfire. Jack tells Ennis he is having an affair with a ranch forman's wife. We know that is a lie. Nobody except Randall could stand her and I think even he was getting sick of her. No, Jack was having an affair with Randall.
But, Jack also told the truth when he says to Ennis, "Tell you what. . .truth is, sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it. . ." [tissues please]
I believe Jack is, yet again, giving Ennis a chance to say, 'Ya bud. I feel the same way. We gotta do something about this situation." But, once again Ennis doesn't say a word, he just looks into the fire.
Then we go to the argument where Ennis tells Jack that if he ever finds out Jack is cheating on him with other men he will kill him.
They argue, Ennis breaks down and cries, I start crying so hard I can't see the picture. [tissue please]
Next we see the flashback. Now, it is unfortunate that the movie didn't convey the meaning of that scene as well as the story. Annie puts it this way;
"What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger. ...SNIP ENTIRE SCENE... Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not what to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that.[/u][/b] Let be. Let be."
[all emphasis is mine]
In other words, Jack started to think that the only moment when Ennis was in love with him was that moment when Ennis held him. The rest was the love of a best best friend who he could talk to like he could talk to nobody else. And the sex was great too. To Ennis, Jack was the closest person he had ever gotten to and Jack was the only person Ennis had allowed to get as close to him as he did. Ennis was never, with the possible exception of that one time while holding Jack, in love with Jack. I don't think he could even conseve of being in love with Jack he was so homophobic and hung up on their sexual encounters.
Now, having said that, we know Ennis was in love with Jack, it's just that Ennis didn't know it. Ennis couldn't even understand that Jack could be in love with him. (At the end I will try to defend my theory)
So the next scene we see is Ennis driving away. Then, we see Jack watching him drive away with a sad, resolved look on his face. He had decided he was in love with Ennis so much he couldn't stand to see Ennis hurting like this any longer. He decided to let Ennis go to hopefully make a better life for himself. He had decided to live with Randall. Certainly not as good as Ennis, but something he could have and who might be willing to live together because they were both gay. Remember Randall came on to Jack so there was more interest on Randall's part than on Jacks. Perhaps Randall fell in love with Jack in a way Ennis could not. We will never know if Jack ever fell in love with Randall. I personally doubt it.
Now, we know from later on in the movie, that Jack did indeed go to his parents house to visit and he told his dad that he was going to bring Randall up there to help out. He had come to grips with the fact it could never be Ennis so now it would be Randall.
Now, allow me to defend this theory, and that is, after all, all it can be, a theory. Neither the story, the screenplay or the movie tells us what actually happened.
I base all this on the scene when Ennis finds the shirts in Jack's closet. Mrs. Twist knows Jack was in love with Ennis. That is why she sent him up to Jack's room, to find the shirts and then HE could know Jack was in love with him. Look at Ennis' face when he finds the shirts. His mouth falls open (well, open for closed mouth Ennis), his eyes widen as if he is in shock. It is THEN that Ennis realizes Jack was in love with him in the same way a man and a woman are in love. [box of tissues please]
Ennis now understands that a man CAN be in love with another man. The shirts, Ennis being held by Jack, for twenty years taught him that. He then realizes that he has been in love with Jack all this time but didn't realize that is what it was or at least couldn't admit it to himself. Ennis then hugs the shirts and tries to smell Jack. Ennis is holding Jack (the shirts) from the front! Ennis lifts the sleeve of the shirt to hold Jack's hand. [MAJOR TISSUE SHORTAGE!!] He is going to take Jack home to live with him. Something Jack has always wanted.
With Jack safely at home, he takes care of Jack symbolically by buttoning Jacks shirt. He says, "Jack, I swear. . . " (Jack, I swear, I didn't understand your love. Forgive me.) [major meltdown here]
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When did Jack decide? Maybe he never really did; maybe he was just biding his time for a while......I'm still haunted by the card Ennis sent to reconnect with Jack! and which came back "deceased". When did Ennis send the card? How long after the last meeting with Jack? The card must mean that Ennis, despite the harsh words exchanged at that last get together, was not about to have Jack quit him, and if the card had been sent earlier, maybe it would have precluded Jack looking for another relationship.....what do you think?
This is my perspective. Others could and probably will differ.
We have to go back to the last night around the campfire. Jack tells Ennis he is having an affair with a ranch forman's wife. We know that is a lie. Nobody except Randall could stand her and I think even he was getting sick of her. No, Jack was having an affair with Randall.
But, Jack also told the truth when he says to Ennis, "Tell you what. . .truth is, sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it. . ." [tissues please]
I believe Jack is, yet again, giving Ennis a chance to say, 'Ya bud. I feel the same way. We gotta do something about this situation." But, once again Ennis doesn't say a word, he just looks into the fire.
Then we go to the argument where Ennis tells Jack that if he ever finds out Jack is cheating on him with other men he will kill him.
They argue, Ennis breaks down and cries, I start crying so hard I can't see the picture. [tissue please]
Next we see the flashback. Now, it is unfortunate that the movie didn't convey the meaning of that scene as well as the story. Annie puts it this way;
"What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger. ...SNIP ENTIRE SCENE... Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not what to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that.[/u][/b] Let be. Let be."
[all emphasis is mine]
In other words, Jack started to think that the only moment when Ennis was in love with him was that moment when Ennis held him. The rest was the love of a best best friend who he could talk to like he could talk to nobody else. And the sex was great too. To Ennis, Jack was the closest person he had ever gotten to and Jack was the only person Ennis had allowed to get as close to him as he did. Ennis was never, with the possible exception of that one time while holding Jack, in love with Jack. I don't think he could even conseve of being in love with Jack he was so homophobic and hung up on their sexual encounters.
Now, having said that, we know Ennis was in love with Jack, it's just that Ennis didn't know it. Ennis couldn't even understand that Jack could be in love with him. (At the end I will try to defend my theory)
So the next scene we see is Ennis driving away. Then, we see Jack watching him drive away with a sad, resolved look on his face. He had decided he was in love with Ennis so much he couldn't stand to see Ennis hurting like this any longer. He decided to let Ennis go to hopefully make a better life for himself. He had decided to live with Randall. Certainly not as good as Ennis, but something he could have and who might be willing to live together because they were both gay. Remember Randall came on to Jack so there was more interest on Randall's part than on Jacks. Perhaps Randall fell in love with Jack in a way Ennis could not. We will never know if Jack ever fell in love with Randall. I personally doubt it.
Now, we know from later on in the movie, that Jack did indeed go to his parents house to visit and he told his dad that he was going to bring Randall up there to help out. He had come to grips with the fact it could never be Ennis so now it would be Randall.
Now, allow me to defend this theory, and that is, after all, all it can be, a theory. Neither the story, the screenplay or the movie tells us what actually happened.
I base all this on the scene when Ennis finds the shirts in Jack's closet. Mrs. Twist knows Jack was in love with Ennis. That is why she sent him up to Jack's room, to find the shirts and then HE could know Jack was in love with him. Look at Ennis' face when he finds the shirts. His mouth falls open (well, open for closed mouth Ennis), his eyes widen as if he is in shock. It is THEN that Ennis realizes Jack was in love with him. [box of tissues please]
Ennis now understands that a man CAN be in love with another man. The shirts, Ennis being held by Jack, for twenty years taught him that. He then realizes that he has been in love with Jack all this time but didn't realize that is what it was or at least couldn't admit it to himself. Ennis then hugs the shirts and tries to smell Jack. Ennis is holding Jack (the shirts) from the front! Ennis lifts the sleeve of the shirt to hold Jack's hand. [MAJOR TISSUE SHORTAGE!!] He is going to take Jack home to live with him. Something Jack has always wanted.
With Jack safely at home, he takes care of Jack symbolically by buttoning Jacks shirt. He says, "Jack, I swear. . . " (Jack, I swear, I didn't understand your love. Forgive me.) [major meltdown here]
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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Ennis now understands that a man CAN be in love with another man. The shirts, Ennis being held by Jack, for twenty years taught him that. He then realizes that he has been in love with Jack all this time but didn't realize that is what it was or at least couldn't admit it to himself. Ennis then hugs the shirts and tries to smell Jack. Ennis is holding Jack (the shirts) from the front! Ennis lifts the sleeve of the shirt to hold Jack's hand. [MAJOR TISSUE SHORTAGE!!] He is going to take Jack home to live with him. Something Jack has always wanted.
Hadn't thought of it that way but that is kinda nice and makes sense... But i still don't think Jack woulda given up on Ennis :)
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AS i've said many times, this topic is the most painful for me, more than anything else...cuz of the notion of "giving up". physically, jack did move on...no question 'bout that...but emotionally, did he? i think no...or maybe because i want to believe that he didn't move on emotionally...i wanna believe that contrary to the story, that nothing did actually pull them apart...
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This is my perspective. Others could and probably will differ.
Twenty-eight people have read my perspective since I wrote it and not a single one has told me I am crazy. Do you all agree with me? Are you just being polite and not saying anything but think I am a nut?
If you think I am incorrect by all means say so. Don't worry about possibly hurting my feelings. I'm a tough old bird. I might argue back, but I can take discent. ;D
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This is my perspective. Others could and probably will differ.
. . . SNIPED FOR BREVITY. . .
Patriot1, it seems you and I are the only two people who saw the same movie. Your description of this scene is exactly the way I saw it. I have looked at many web sites devoted to Brokeback Mountain and I have never, until now, found another person that saw the movie as I did. I suspect you have a very deep, sensitive and loving heart.
Thank you for sharing your vision of what you saw.
MMJ
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Patriot1, What a beautiful and thought provoking perspective. I agree with almost all your points, except that I believe that Ennis did know he loved Jack. He gave up his wife and Cassie for Jack. I don't think he would have entered into another relationship. I don't recall him ever sending Jack a postcard before. I think it was always the other way around. I think their last exchange maybe would allow him to open up to the possibility of somehow intensifying their relationship.
As for Jack, I think he left Ennis and went straight to his parent's house as he said he was going to. He was hurt and angry, and started to tell his family of his dreams. (to leave his wife and come live on their ranch with a man - now out of anger, Randall) I do not believe he ever would have done this. I think he would have stuck it out with Ennis. He would have continued to open himself up to other possibilities with the hope of finding love elsewhere, but he would have eventually learned that this was not possible.
I never really took any notice of the fact that he holds the shirts facing himself. Thanks for pointing that out - beautiful.
I saw the movie for the 6th time this week and that scene and the scene when Ennis breaks down had me bawling - so so sad.
The most beautifully intimate scene to me was the second tent scene, when Ennis approaches Jack so tentatively. Jack's tenderness just warms my heart. -Nancy
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Patriot1, what a post! It is enlightening and I really enjoyed. Thank you.
There is one part which I have to disagree.
Ennis was never, with the possible exception of that one time while holding Jack, in love with Jack. I don't think he could even conseve of being in love with Jack he was so homophobic and hung up on their sexual encounters.
How could one be in love just in one moment? IMHO, Ennis knew that he was in love but because of his homophobia, he was trying to deny his love to Jack.
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Patriot1, what a post! It is enlightening and I really enjoyed. Thank you.
There is one part which I have to disagree.
Ennis was never, with the possible exception of that one time while holding Jack, in love with Jack. I don't think he could even conseve of being in love with Jack he was so homophobic and hung up on their sexual encounters.
How could one be in love just in one moment? IMHO, Ennis knew that he was in love but because of his homophobia, he was trying to deny his love to Jack.
Patriot I hope not to offend you, however you statement is like a slap in theface of all the LIKES of me who have lived their lives and view themselves as ENNIS, I do not think for a moment that I am homophobic, I may have been so at some time in the past, but I pay the price for it today, so unless you know what it is to live closeted or repressed, do have no ideas what its like
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I agree with almost all your points, except that I believe that Ennis did know he loved Jack.
I would have to go back and reread my post, I have reach the age where I forget what I did or said 5 minutes ago, but I believe I did say Ennis loved Jack. Ennis knew he loved him but I don't think Ennis knew he was IN LOVE with Jack. Ennis had made a good friend in Jack. Not only a good friend but a VERY VERY good friend. Probably the first and only friend he had. Sure he loved Jack. He trusted Jack so much that he made an exception to his homophobia. He wasn't queer. Only queers can be in love with another man. So Ennis never thought, or could not allow himself to believe he was in love with Jack. As I also said, we all know he was in love with Jack and we know Ennis was in denial.
I think their last exchange maybe would allow him to open up to the possibility of somehow intensifying their relationship.
Nice thought but I don't see that happening. It hadn't happened in 20 years. It took the shock of seeing Jacks love for him to make him come to realize just how much they both loved each other. Jack's shirt embracing his was, I believe, the turning point. Unfortunately too late.
As for Jack, I think he left Ennis and went straight to his parent's house as he said he was going to. He was hurt and angry, and started to tell his family of his dreams. (to leave his wife and come live on their ranch with a man - now out of anger, Randall) I do not believe he ever would have done this. I think he would have stuck it out with Ennis. He would have continued to open himself up to other possibilities with the hope of finding love elsewhere, but he would have eventually learned that this was not possible.
I don't think Jack would have brought Randall to his parents home either. But, I am sure he had decided to let Ennis go so Ennis would stop hurting so much. The ultimate sacrifice is to let go of someone you love dearly for the sake of that person.
It does bring up the question of what would Jack have done, if he had lived, when he got Ennis' post card. How would he have handled that. But we would have to speculate on that and there in nothing in the movie, story or screenplay to give me even a clue. So I won't speculate on that.
The most beautifully intimate scene to me was the second tent scene, when Ennis approaches Jack so tentatively. Jack's tenderness just warms my heart.
-Nancy
A tenderness every red-blooded American boy is looking for. ;D
Actually, it was that scene that made me realize what a once-in-a-lifetime performance I was watching. Even Ang Lee said he had never seen a performance like it before. He had said that normally you can see a look in the actor's eyes as if to say, 'This isn't me. I'm just acting.' But he never saw that in the boys. They committed themselves to their characters and the movie and just did the scenes. And they did them beautifully in my opinion.
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Patriot it is very well worded, but like Ennis said he ain't no queer only queers can love another man, I beg to differ, I sure did not see myself as queer when I had my affair with another married man, I knew what I felt was stronger than anything I had ever knew of life, and there was no way come hell in high water of heaven wrath that could have drawn me away from that experience, and to this day I will never hold any regrets, sorrows and griefs no matter how intense they still are, it was all worthed at the end. I try going gay or living out there in the open, but I also tried to force myself into a straight life girlfriend and all , but to this day I don't fit in either place, so Am I queer or straight, no not in a million years I am much more I am a simple wondering soul searching his shadow!
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Patriot1, what a post! It is enlightening and I really enjoyed. Thank you.
There is one part which I have to disagree.
Ennis was never, with the possible exception of that one time while holding Jack, in love with Jack. I don't think he could even conseve of being in love with Jack he was so homophobic and hung up on their sexual encounters.
How could one be in love just in one moment? IMHO, Ennis knew that he was in love but because of his homophobia, he was trying to deny his love to Jack.
Ethan, I don't think he was trying to deny his love for Jack, he knew all to well he loved Jack. I think he was either not aware or couldn't admit he was IN LOVE with another man. That would make him a queer and we know he could never admit that.
As for being in love for just that one moment when they hugged, the book seemed to indicate this was the one and only time during their relationship that Ennis had dropped almost all of his guard, his shield, and let himself engage in a moment of shared and satisfying sexless hunger. He was letting himself love not as a friend but as a lover.
Actually, Ennis is no different than many heterosexual men. Many men have friendships so strong that they actually love the other person. If it should become discovered that the friend is gay or bi, often they will engage in sex as long as nobody ever suspects. Oh sure, the first time there is sex usually one or both are drunk, but later on the alcohol isn't needed. This is the relation ship Ennis and Jack had and nobody could ever know.
You really have to watch the shirt in the closet at Jack's house scene again. The look of shock and understanding that comes over Ennis' face is priceless. At least I think so and that look is what I base my theory on.
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Patriot I hope not to offend you, however you statement is like a slap in theface of all the LIKES of me who have lived their lives and view themselves as ENNIS, I do not think for a moment that I am homophobic, I may have been so at some time in the past, but I pay the price for it today, so unless you know what it is to live closeted or repressed, do have no ideas what its like
frenchcda, I am not sure what statement I made that you are referring to. Which one was it?
As a matter of fact, I know all too well what it is like to be closeted AND repressed AND isolated. I have never been with another person of any gender, except for once and that experience lasted three minutes, was one way and was horrible.
But tell me what statement you are talking about and we can discuss it.
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Ethan, I don't think he was trying to deny his love for Jack, he knew all to well he loved Jack. I think he was either not aware or couldn't admit he was IN LOVE with another man. That would make him a queer and we know he could never admit that.
Patriot1, we have butted heads on this before, but why did he question Jack, "You ever get the feelin', I don't know, when you're in town, and someone looks at you, suspicious....like he knows." IMHO he is admitting at that point that he is everything his father tried to brutally knock out of him. Is he going to act out on that? No. Jack is his man but at the same time he is admitting to himself and Jack that his love is for a man and thus for men.
BTW I always love your posts. You are a man who thinks.
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Patriot it is very well worded, but like Ennis said he ain't no queer only queers can love another man, I beg to differ, I sure did not see myself as queer when I had my affair with another married man, I knew what I felt was stronger than anything I had ever knew of life, and there was no way come hell in high water of heaven wrath that could have drawn me away from that experience, and to this day I will never hold any regrets, sorrows and griefs no matter how intense they still are, it was all worthed at the end. I try going gay or living out there in the open, but I also tried to force myself into a straight life girlfriend and all , but to this day I don't fit in either place, so Am I queer or straight, no not in a million years I am much more I am a simple wondering soul searching his shadow!
Do you feel Ennis thought of himself as queer just because he loved Jack? I don't. I do think Ennis was having problems dealing with the sex with Jack. The book tells us that during the four years without Jack Ennis would wonder if he was queer. He dismissed the thought because he was married, had kids and liked doing it with women. But sex with women was nowhere as good as it was with Jack. And besides, he never thought of doing it with other men.
Now we come to a potential problem because of the use of words. I associate the word queer with gay. I believe they are the same. Then there is the word homosexual. By the strictest definition of the word homosexual, Ennis was a homosexual, he sought and enjoyed sex with a member of the same sex. Was Ennis queer? Not as far as I am concerned. He didn't go out looking for men to have sex with. The sex he and Jack were having was private and personal and "a one shot thing." Ennis had no emotional, mental or physical attraction to men, just Jack. That makes him a homosexual but not gay in my book. Ennis had no desire to set up house with Jack and live as mssers Ennis and Jack del Mar. That, in Ennis' mind would have made him queer like the old man he saw dead.
I guess we sometimes have to decide what gender we are happier with and then put ourselves in a position to meet that kind of person. I knew a man once who was like you sound. He never got involved in the gay scene but he found himself a mail carrier and this mail carrier would come by two or three times a week and they would spend some "quality" time together. This went on for years and years. They were both very happy. Is it possible you would like an arrangement like that?
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Patriot1, we have butted heads on this before, but why did he question Jack, "You ever get the feelin', I don't know, when you're in town, and someone looks at you, suspicious....like he knows."
Ennis did not think of himself as queer but yet he was sleeping with another man. He was always terrified someone else would find out he was sleeping with Jack and THEY would think he was a queer and hurt him and Jack. After all, THEY didn't know he had a special[/i][/u] relationship. THEY didn't know Ennis wasn't sleeping around with several or many men. HE knew he was sleeping with a man and his paranoia was taking over causing him to think others were looking at him funny. They weren't of course. Ennis didn't act like he was sleeping with Jack. Yet, Ennis even got paranoid just standing in his yard with Jack when the truck drove by. They weren't doing anything but talking. That is how bad his paranoia was.
IMHO he is admitting at that point that he is everything his father tried to brutally knock out of him.
No, I think at that point he was AFRAID of becoming everything his father tried to brutally knock out of him. That is one reason he would not live with Jack. The "tough old birds" LIVED together. Ennis could not do that or he would be like them and may be killed also.
Is he going to act out on that? No. Jack is his man but at the same time he is admitting to himself and Jack that his love is for a man and thus for men.
No, sorry, I can not accept because you have a love for one man that it means you love men. Ennis would never have looked at another man like he looked at Jack. Now that Jack is dead could Ennis find happiness with another man? Yes, I think so, the right man, a man like Jack that made Ennis form a close personal friendship. But I don't think Ennis would ever go out looking for such a friendship. Therefore Ennis will live with Jack in his little trailer until his dying day.
BTW I always love your posts. You are a man who thinks.
Well, if true, I have time to think being alone and wanting to discover what the hell it is that makes this movie affect me in the way it does. If I can discover why it affects me maybe I can let it go or get it to let me go.
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Well, if true, I have time to think being alone and wanting to discover what the hell it is that makes this movie affect me in the way it does. If I can discover why it affects me maybe I can let it go or get it to let me go.
So true...so true...Patriot1. I don't understand why this movie affects me so deeply as it does neither. I only recently learnt from being here that I suffer from "Post-Brokeback-Mountain-Syndrome"...
So strange...so confusing...
You know, we often think: "I'm alone"..."I'm the only lonely one"...
But after visiting this forum and reading all the wonderful posts from so many different like-minded people...you slowly learn...that you are not the only one...
I am truly thankful that my eyes have been opened...
Sam
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You know, we often think: "I'm alone"..."I'm the only lonely one"...
But after visiting this forum and reading all the wonderful posts from so many different like-minded people...you slowly learn...that you are not the only one...
I am truly thankful that my eyes have been opened...
Sam
You are correct of course Sam. There are other lonely people out there. But, you know, it doesn't make things better, it makes them worse, just to think there are others going through the same pain. It makes it even sadder.
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You know, we often think: "I'm alone"..."I'm the only lonely one"...
But after visiting this forum and reading all the wonderful posts from so many different like-minded people...you slowly learn...that you are not the only one...
I am truly thankful that my eyes have been opened...
Sam
You are correct of course Sam. There are other lonely people out there. But, you know, it doesn't make things better, it makes them worse, just to think there are others going through the same pain. It makes it even sadder.
Crying even harder now... :'(
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Well, Patriot !; I don't know if I started this storm of words or not, but your initial long reply to my post and all the others in response to yours are certainly a fascinating read! I've printed out this page for posterity! I love the way BBM inspires so many reactions and I admire your impassioned, articulate responses; by the time the DVD has been in our hands for a month,we all will have memorized the film, and will continue to fill in the blanks, the open ended questions, until the sheep come home! Thank you all for your posts to this thread here.
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A tenderness every red-blooded American boy is looking for. ;D
Actually, it was that scene that made me realize what a once-in-a-lifetime performance I was watching. Even Ang Lee said he had never seen a performance like it before. He had said that normally you can see a look in the actor's eyes as if to say, 'This isn't me. I'm just acting.' But he never saw that in the boys. They committed themselves to their characters and the movie and just did the scenes. And they did them beautifully in my opinion.
I am so happy for the gay community that they now have a love story with a love scene that parallels any love scene in the heterosexual world. You all deserve it. What a tribute to you all that the most powerful love story of all time (in my estimation) is a homosexual love story! This tenderness is something we are ALL looking for. The poignancy of Ennis and Jack's love transcends all sexual orientations. The acting was superb. How many of us have said that these characters are REAL to us.
Do any of the people involved in this story and movie know of the magnitude of this website, the magnitude of its membership and the extent of the influence this movie has had on our lives?
Thanks, Titus. I enjoy our exchanges. - Nancy
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Well, Patriot !; I don't know if I started this storm of words or not, but your initial long reply to my post and all the others in response to yours are certainly a fascinating read! I've printed out this page for posterity! I love the way BBM inspires so many reactions and I admire your impassioned, articulate responses; by the time the DVD has been in our hands for a month,we all will have memorized the film, and will continue to fill in the blanks, the open ended questions, until the sheep come home! Thank you all for your posts to this thread here.
Stephen, as long as you all remember that I wasn't the genius that wrote the story to begin with and I am not the one who wrote the screenplay and I am not the one who directed the film. I have been expressing my feelings based on what I saw unfold on the screen. When I come to a conclusion I try to back it up with evidence. I try never to just form an opinion based on nothing, but, on the rare occasions that I do, I make sure I say the opinion is based on nothing but feeling. None of this process makes my opinions correct, it just makes them my opinions.
When I read the word "impassioned" in your response above I read argumentative. Yes, I suppose I will defend my opinions too strongly at times. For that, I am sorry. I never mean to offend anyone. I love you all. You are all my family; brothers, sisters and friends. This forum has given me a way to step outside my self-imposed isolation; even if just virtually. That, I think, has been good for me. It has also been bad. The good, however, has outweighed the bad. At least I hope so.
Thank you for your kind, sensitive, thoughtful and understanding responses. :-* on the cheek
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This is one of the big questions that grabs all of us.
patriot1 has really made me rethink what I'd believed the relationship dynamics to have been. From his powerful post i want to touch on a couple of themes.
when did Ennis realize he was in love with jack?
I feel the book and the movie are a little different here but they say the same thing to me.
In the book,Ennis admits to Jack in the motel ,that he threw up after their parting and while it took him along time he realized "I shouldn't a let you out of my sights . Too late then by a long way." IMO this is Ennis facing up to the fact he's in love with Jack. In the same scene he admits "I goddamn hate it that you're going to drive away in the morning....". Big thing for Ennis to admit to. in the movie , I think the same sentiments are conveyed in the stroking and rubbing of Jack's arms --- the non - verbal intimacy is powerful. The expression in Ennis's eyes (i don't know how heath ledger did this) is incredible. Then in the scene by the river when Ennis looks at the heavens , the happiness in his face is amazing, he knows he's in love. The physical closeness of Jack is what he craves. IMO, Ennis knew this was beyond just feeling close to a special person and occasionally having sex. The intensity of the sex, I think, would also have allowed him nowhere to hide.
In a way , if he wasn't in love with Jack maybe he could have got closer to Alma. My belief is the gulf between what he had had with Jack and what he had with Alma made it clear to him he really was in love with Jack. I think his preferred way of making love to his wife was a way of imagining being with Jack.
But I totally agree Ennis would never think of himself as "queer" and would avoid thinking about it if at all possible. I would be one of the people who think Ennis might in fact be bi-sexual but that what he'd experienced made it impossible for him to conceive of this.
The shirts
GOD, what a powerful symbol. The physicality of Jack lie in those shirts. My thoughts are that the shock we see in his face is because seeing the shirts brings Jack into the room with him. He wants to smell him and hold him. Up to then I think Ennis had nothing concrete of Jack's . To lose the one you love and have nothing you can hold, bar the post cards, is tragic beyond words. So I agree the shirts were a way of holding Jack and knowing that for both of them they were under the same skin.
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Patriot 1; by "impassioned" I did not mean argumentative, not that that's a bad thing. I meant "with deep feeling"! Thus, you are an impassioned fan of Brokeback Mountain; rather, an impassioned student of BBM! Thank you again for your insights. Stephen.
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I am so happy for the gay community that they now have a love story with a love scene that parallels any love scene in the heterosexual world. You all deserve it. What a tribute to you all that the most powerful love story of all time (in my estimation) is a homosexual love story! This tenderness is something we are ALL looking for. Thepoignancy of Ennis and Jack's love transcends all sexual orientations. The acting was superb. How many of us have said that these characters are REAL to us.
Do any of the people involved in this story and movie know of the magnitude of this website, the magnitude of its membership and the extent of the influence this movie has had on our lives?
This is off topic but Nancy, you are correct and thank you for acknowledging this. It is a movie to be proud of - a true portrayal of same sex love and sometimes I can't stop wondering that BBM has been made to the big screen. I just want it to last.
I don't know what BBM crew and cast have anticipated the magnitude. I certainly did not and I am forever grateful to those involved in the movie and the members in this forum. You have enriched my life. Thank you -- thank you.
Ethan, I don't think he was trying to deny his love for Jack, he knew all to well he loved Jack. I think he was either not aware or couldn't admit he was IN LOVE with another man. That would make him a queer and we know he could never admit that.
When someone doesn't admit, he is in deniel as far as I am concerned. Your post seems to suggest that Ennis saw his relationship with Jack as a friendship? He didn't know how much Jack loved him until he saw the shirts?
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The shirts is maybe one of the most powerful symbols in the movie and the short story as well, Annie describe that moment as if they were one skin. I have read all of your thoughts and I need to say that all of yours post have a point. That is what makes this story almost unforgettable if that you are the judge, witness and it is your decision. Like Ennis at the end for all of us there is a “big open space on what we know and we want to believe”
All of us agreed in one thing “the love between them” and it was show on their way to keep seeing each other for 20 years. It was not difficult for them they face their own daemons and that are what happen all those years you see that Ennis were Fear and Denial and that is the reason that most of the people is more identified with Jack, but the fact is that Ennis is the most human character because he face all the things that we all face during our life. I am 23 years old maybe I don’t know nothing about life but from what I have seeing and listen from others there are times that we all hide and try to create our own Eden or Nirvana, a place that we can escape. That was Jack to Ennis he loved Jack, but he wasn’t prepare to be with him and share a live. He had a hard life and he found beautiful moments with Jack which make him feel Human.
Jack in the other hand he was always open for Ennis during all the time they spent together Jack knew what he want from Ennis. But he also was afraid of Ennis point of view he only mentions Ennis like one or twice that they both should be together and he always knew Ennis reaction. But for him that was not enough he wants to have someone to have next to him on his bed and watch every night. He thought that he was not going to have that with Ennis never, and he decided to go on. We would never know if he would do it or no, but I’m of those romantic persons that think that he would never give up Ennis and that one day they will be together. But it is our personal point of view
To me and I have said this multiple, he never decided he could have think about it but decide it never after all Love is a force of Nature that can’t be stopped.
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Thank you, Jackie 62, for your post; it got me thinking AGAIN about so many details, and the tricky territory between Annie Proulx's story and the film! Now, back to the drawing board.
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This is one of the big questions that grabs all of us.
patriot1 has really made me rethink what I'd believed the relationship dynamics to have been. From his powerful post i want to touch on a couple of themes.
After reading your post my first reaction was to re watch the movie and write down all the reasons I believe what I do. Then, I realized it was not my job to convince people I am correct and they are wrong. We all see the movie in our own way and the author, screen writers and director intentionally left thing ambiguous so we could.
So, I am not going to try to convince anyone of anything. I am going to be satisfied that no matter how you see the movie you will all come away knowing this is the best movie ever, the acting was beyond words and the directing made this the best movie ever. It has to be. Everyone here has said no movie has ever affected them like this one has.
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As a matter of fact, I know all too well what it is like to be closeted AND repressed AND isolated. I have never been with another person of any gender, except for once and that experience lasted three minutes, was one way and was horrible.
But tell me what statement you are talking about and we can discuss it.
Patriot 1, I am soooooo sorry to hear of your isolation. Isn't this forum a blessing? - Nancy
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[quote author=jackie62 link=topic=1766.msg41903#msg41903 date=1142269060
I feel the book and the movie are a little different here but they say the same thing to me.
In the book,Ennis admits to Jack in the motel ,that he threw up after their parting and while it took him along time he realized "I shouldn't a let you out of my sights . Too late then by a long way."
Jackie, Isn't it a shame this admission was not in the movie. I truly believe that both men knew they were in love (or whatever terminology you want to use), when they had been separated for four years and the intensity of their feelings and desires never diminished and in fact grew stronger. That was the test. - Nancy
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As a matter of fact, I know all too well what it is like to be closeted AND repressed AND isolated. I have never been with another person of any gender, except for once and that experience lasted three minutes, was one way and was horrible.
But tell me what statement you are talking about and we can discuss it.
Patriot 1, I am soooooo sorry to hear of your isolation. Isn't this forum a blessing? - Nancy
My dear, you could never know how much of a blessing.
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Wow, so many thoughtful posts. Thanks so much, guys.
Patriot1, wonderful posts about Ennis and his love for Jack - I was ready to totally agree with you but then jackie62 made me see things with a new perspective. This movie is so rich and full of details. I still believe Ennis didn't realize the strength and meaning of his love for Jack until it was too late. Or maybe he knew, but didn't let himself accept what it meant. I'm not sure. But after so many insightful posts, I don't know what else I could add, really.
As a matter of fact, I know all too well what it is like to be closeted AND repressed AND isolated. I have never been with another person of any gender, except for once and that experience lasted three minutes, was one way and was horrible.
I'm so sorry about this. I hope BBM and this forum have helped you.
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As a matter of fact, I know all too well what it is like to be closeted AND repressed AND isolated. I have never been with another person of any gender, except for once and that experience lasted three minutes, was one way and was horrible.
But tell me what statement you are talking about and we can discuss it.
Patriot 1, I am soooooo sorry to hear of your isolation. Isn't this forum a blessing? - Nancy
My dear, you could never know how much of a blessing.
Patriot 1 you can count on us always we'll be your friends
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Lilie; I agree; for Ennis it is wisdom too late; that's the tragedy of the story; Annie Proulx in an interview went so far as to say that Ennis would most likely remain homophobic and withdrawn, and maybe move in with Alma Jr. and her husband!
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Lilie; I agree; for Ennis it is wisdom too late; that's the tragedy of the story; Annie Proulx in an interview went so far as to say that Ennis would most likely remain homophobic and withdrawn, and maybe move in with Alma Jr. and her husband!
Really? That's interesting. Myself, I've always thought Ennis would probably live alone for the rest of his life. In my mind, now that he's realized what Jack meant to him, he'll love him and keep him in his heart forever, stay with him. I never considered him moving in with Alma Jr. I can see it. I thought he'd made some progress in his homophobia, though, since he finally accepted that he was in love with another man.
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The reason why he would move in with Alma jr is that the ranch in which he's working has just been sold at the beginning of the story. So if he doesn't find another job quickly enough, he might move in to Alma jr. But I think if he find a new job he'll continue living alone.
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Yes, I,too, imagined him living alone, mayby sadder but a bit wiser.... although Ennis realized the love Jack had for him, it was a one time deal (as he said after the first tent scene) and for the rest of his life Jack would remain his only love and this would never translate into Ennis becoming a gay man in and of the world.
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Yes, I,too, imagined him living alone, mayby sadder but a bit wiser.... although Ennis realized the love Jack had for him, it was a one time deal (as he said after the first tent scene) and for the rest of his life Jack would remain his only love and this would never translate into Ennis becoming a gay man in and of the world.
Yes, exactly. That's tragic and filled with hope at the same time.
The reason why he would move in with Alma jr is that the ranch in which he's working has just been sold at the beginning of the story. So if he doesn't find another job quickly enough, he might move in to Alma jr. But I think if he find a new job he'll continue living alone.
Oh, I see. Thanks for clearing that up. :)
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Patriot quote:
frenchcda, I am not sure what statement I made that you are referring to. Which one was it?
As a matter of fact, I know all too well what it is like to be closeted AND repressed AND isolated. I have never been with another person of any gender, except for once and that experience lasted three minutes, was one way and was horrible.
But tell me what statement you are talking about and we can discuss it.
" Ennis was never, with the possible exception of that one time while holding Jack, in love with Jack. I don't think he could even conseve of being in love with Jack he was so homophobic and hung up on their sexual encounters."
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hmm i have a question?
So.. did Jack and Lureen seperate and then Jack moved back home and had a ranch with that guy, who was the husband of the yappy girl and he asked him to go to this cabin to fish?? is that what happened? thats what I think happened but I've never been fully sure.
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hmm i have a question?
So.. did Jack and Lureen seperate and then Jack moved back home and had a ranch with that guy, who was the husband of the yappy girl and he asked him to go to this cabin to fish?? is that what happened? thats what I think happened but I've never been fully sure.
I think that that is what Jack intended to do. But that it never really happened because his life was suddenly and tragically cut short... :'( Jack's father in the scene with Ennis tells Ennis of Jack's plans...he calls the plans of his son a "half-baked notion" and then informs Ennis that "it never come to pass". (Meaning: it never happened...)
I do think that Jack was having an "affair" with Randall though... Like so many before me have already earlier said in some ot the other threads: In the whiskey drinking evening scene with Ennis, where he says that he has a "thing goin' on with the ranch foreman's wife over in Childress"...I do also personally agree with all the others that Jack was (in truth) referring to Randall when he makes this remark...(he just changes the "gender")
Jack and Randall might have been having an affair together, but I don't think that it was of any "major" significance. And I don't think that Jack ever divorced Lureen, or ever actually moved up to Lightning Flat with Randall.
Above all: I don't think that Jack ever stops loving, wanting, or yearning for a sweet life with Ennis. Ennis was/is what the Spanish so rightly label: his 'gran amor'...(sigh!) In my opinion, this thing with Randall was just to take care of his "physical needs"...just like all his trips to "Mexico"...
sam
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I agree, Sam; Randall was someone to keep Jack from going over the edge: in the last scene between Jack and Ennis, Jack asserts powerfully how he is different from Ennis, that a f*** every so often on Brokeback is not enough....... It's interesting to note that it took about 20 years for Jack to reach his threshold and have it out with Ennis even though Jack has an abiding love for Ennis which, as the song says, is a love that will never die.
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Well i have to say this Randall was just physical but not emotional at all, Ennis in the other hand was beyond physical. I don't know but the more i see the movie i see that Jack is getting himselft to a deadend i mean all over the years he desperatly tries to get Ennis live with him, move nearby him. he tries to do everything he can think about but Ennis was not willing and ready for that. Jack was in love with Ennis he wanted so desperatly that when he thougth that he could never have him as he wanted he just broke himself in pieces :'( :'( :'( :'(
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I agree, Sam; Randall was someone to keep Jack from going over the edge: in the last scene between Jack and Ennis, Jack asserts powerfully how he is different from Ennis, that a f*** every so often on Brokeback is not enough....... It's interesting to note that it took about 20 years for Jack to reach his threshold and have it out with Ennis even though Jack has an abiding love for Ennis which, as the song says, is a love that will never die.
Oh! So True, Stephen! I haven't stood still by this thought that you just revealed to me (that it takes Jack 20 years to reach his "threshold")... A revelation! Oooohhhhhh!
Now you made me cry again...!
And yes, matsuki33, u r so right: Ennis was indeed: beyond physical... So crushing! I am crying again. (When will this ever stop?)
sam
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And yes, matsuki33, u r so right: Ennis was indeed: beyond physical... So crushing!
Yes. I believe Ennis was his soulmate, really. I usually don't like throwing that word around, but I can't find no best way of describing what they had.
i mean all over the years he desperatly tries to get Ennis live with him, move nearby him. he tries to do everything he can think about but Ennis was not willing and ready for that.
Yeah, that's heartbreaking. Everything he did and say, practically telling him how much he loved him and needed him, but Ennis was too repressed. The tragedy of it all is that Ennis understands what Jack was trying to tell him during all these years only when it's too late for Jack to know it.
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:'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
that is what broke my heart there it was too late, my fiance and i were really sad at that part b
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Okay, I really appreciate this thread. :*( It seriously helped me to figure some things out. :s) I hope that I'm not committing some monumental forum fopaux by bumping such a freaken old thread! :_( If so, however, please advise and I will make sure to never committ such a major gaffe again. $f$
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JnE, it's never too late to join in on a thread here; I entered my response here 5 years ago, and now you are the first in a long time to respond to this interesting question: When did Jack decide....???? Yes, it's a revelatin to think that it took 20 years.....Stephen.
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Thanks, Stephen! Much appreciated!! :) I've been reading the 2006 boards on this forum, and it's so cool to see that there are still people checking back that contributed from way back then! :cr) This whole thing is quite enthralling to me. One thread I read started with, "A very important part of this post is the definition of 'quit'. This has caused more confusion, disagreement, and argument than could ever have been imagined. Therefore, please take note that here, 'quit' means 'allow to go' or 'set free' - it DOES NOT mean 'stop loving' or 'forget about'." And, of course, you know the truth of this. "When Did Jack Decide?" and "Why Did Jack Quit Ennis?" are two boards that really spoke to me, since the possibility is horrible to think on, and yet it stares straight at us from Jack's lost eyes in that last meeting. After pondering on it, I've come to the definite conclusion that IF Jack did decide to 'quit' Ennis, it would not have lasted, because Jack would not have been able to stand his dreamlife without his true love, and Ennis would not have been able to "stand" something so heartwrenching that he could "fix"! Jack settling on a life with Randall is no different than Ennis settling on a life with Alma! Jack was seeking constant companionship, but as Ennis had already proven, if it's not with the one you love with all your heart, it simply does not lead to a fulfilling life, in itself a slow death. Afterall, Alma was a good, loving, and agreeable wife (for quite a while even after viewing the kissing scene!!). She wanted to give and be all for Ennis. The companionship was there for him, but he could not encompass it. For Jack, however, as nice as Annie was, it was not the same as Alma to Ennis. Annie let her daddy take over, losing herself, and becoming cold and distant in the process; so Jack had yet to learn the lesson of living with someone who loves you more than you do them. If he had done this, things would have fallen into perspective soon enough, with Randall getting the short end of that stick. I also believe that from the moment Ennis rejected Jack, after Ennis' divorce, Jack started slowly dying - the emotional death becoming complete at the end of their last meeting. His hope was lost, leading Jack to commit a sort of slow suicide by becoming reckless, which was another proof that Jack was not going easily into that second-rate cohabitation. In truth, if he had lived, Jack and Ennis' love would have had no choice but to pull them both back together again... as is proven by the fact that even death could not prevent this from happening.
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i dont think.. this is obviously my personal view that Jack never really decided anything. There is no clear hint in either the movie or the short story that he had decided to move on.yes the frustration in the confrontation scene was evident because this was the first and last confrontation they ever had. it was more of a lovers spat. May be what had happened during the dance sequence (which everybody had been mentioning) is that Jack had come to terms to the fact that he can never have the "sweet life" he had once wished to have but at the same time he knew he would not be able to let go of Ennis.
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i dont think.. this is obviously my personal view that Jack never really decided anything. There is no clear hint in either the movie or the short story that he had decided to move on.yes the frustration in the confrontation scene was evident because this was the first and last confrontation they ever had. it was more of a lovers spat. May be what had happened during the dance sequence (which everybody had been mentioning) is that Jack had come to terms to the fact that he can never have the "sweet life" he had once wished to have but at the same time he knew he would not be able to let go of Ennis.
I agree with you and that's what I love about this movie. So much is left to the viewer's own interpretation. It's not an in your face this is how it is movie. It really makes you think and wonder about what really happened.
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I agree with you and that's what I love about this movie. So much is left to the viewer's own interpretation. It's not an in your face this is how it is movie. It really makes you think and wonder about what really happened.
thanks rimasworld ... cant agree more its the beauty of the movie that it is wide open to interpretations , oh Well !!! that can even be a whole new topic to discuss on .. what say rimasworld ? you can start the topic or i will