Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: matt78 on Jan 19, 2006, 04:42 AM
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Anyone else get a small "hmmm" moment out of the exchange where Ennis says:
"Maybe you're a sinner, but I ain't yet had the occasion"
I think that's such a flirty thing to say! Very hot. ;D
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Anyone else get a small "hmmm" moment out of the exchange where Ennis says:
"Maybe you're a sinner, but I ain't yet had the occasion"
I think that's such a flirty thing to say! Very hot. ;D
Yes. It was flirty. Although the scene was not too long leading to the first tent, it was pretty effective.
Other moments I can think of
Ennis: "....what?
Jack: "that's more words than you've spoken in the past weeks."
Ennis: "that's the most I've spoke in a year"
Ennis: "...thought rodeo cowboys was all f***-ups."
Jack: "the hell they are"
After Jack collapsed in the heap. Ennis said, "I think my dad was right." :D
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I agree, it was flirty. But do you think it also means that it is Ennis' first time? I do. And speaking of flirty: What about all those looks in the parking lot, before they enter the trailer. Ok, it is mainly Jack, who is openly flirting there. But Ennis does react...
monicita
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It was absolutely Ennis' first time but I think that he had sort of a natural knack for flirting with Jack and wasn't as innocent as he'd have you believe. ;)
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It was absolutely Ennis' first time but I think that he had sort of a natural knack for flirting with Jack and wasn't as innocent as he'd have you believe. ;)
I totally agree. One coin doesn't make a sound.
I agree, it was flirty. But do you think it also means that it is Ennis' first time? I do. And speaking of flirty: What about all those looks in the parking lot, before they enter the trailer. Ok, it is mainly Jack, who is openly flirting there. But Ennis does react...
I don't know why ...the parking lot in the first scene just seems to be very cruisy to me and reminds me the look I have seen many times from gay bars.
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I don't know why ...the parking lot in the first scene just seems to be very cruisy to me and reminds me the look I have seen many times from gay bars.
exactly. Cruisy is a good word for it. The audience last night (London, Leicester Square) definitely reacted to that look (some surprise, some sniggers).
monicita
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Very flirty, yes. Very hot, yes, sizzling. But self-revealing, too. Uneducated, with scant prospects for career or personal success, Ennis probably hadn't had all that many opportunities to drift into sin.
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But also says something about his perference, I mean he is engaged at that time to Alma, so why nothing with her?
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"Maybe you're a sinner, but I ain't yet had the occasion"
very sweet and sexy...
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Do you think that they thought their love was sin? I certainly do not, but maybe they did. Maybe Ennis thought he had sin in his heart. He wouldn't go to the church social with Alma and the girls... Perhaps, he couldn't accept his love for Jack as something from god. I know society, his dad, and the world in general was (and still is to the greater extent) against the love that dare not speak it's name, but does anyone think that Ennis bought into it? I don't think Jack felt like a sinner because of their love. But Ennis... maybe...
Jim
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I'd say yes... Ennis is very self-conscious about this..
From book:(Ennis)"...I been lookin at people on the street. this happen a other people?..."
In the movie, I remeber it's more like "...Do you have this feeling that ...people look at you.....".
Maybe that's why it's ok for him to be with cassie and Alma Jr., but it's not ok for him to be with his two girls and Jack.... because "people will know".... :'(
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I'd say yes... Ennis is very self-conscious about this..
From book:(Ennis)"...I been lookin at people on the street. this happen a other people?..."
In the movie, I remeber it's more like "...Do you have this feeling that ...people look at you.....".
Maybe that's why it's ok for him to be with cassie and Alma Jr., but it's not ok for him to be with his two girls and Jack.... because "people will know".... :'(
Yes, this further explains why Ennis said "two guys living together...no way"
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... it's such a tragedy...
Jim
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His reply is classic.
Reminds of a famous person (can't remember who) who on his death bed was asked by priest if he had made his peace with God, his reply was "I didn't know we had quarrelled"
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Anyone else get a small "hmmm" moment out of the exchange where Ennis says:
"Maybe you're a sinner, but I ain't yet had the occasion"
I think that's such a flirty thing to say! Very hot. ;D
I don't know if was meant to be flirty. However, if I had been Jack, it would have been extremely hard not to plant a big one on his lips right there!
It might have gotten me killed...but I would have died happy! ;D
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I thought Jack was obviously cruising Ennis-and Gyllenhaal says somwhere that they decided to play Jack as if he had had prior experience-but that Ennis saw Jack at this point as a competitor for the job he is seeking. Of course subconsciously I think Ennis has more going on.
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In 1963 Good Girls still DIDN'T!! And out West, in the sticks, even less----I am betting that Alma and Ennis together may have had a few kisses good night---and held hands alittle. that would have been about it. I doubt they were ever actually together alone for any length of time.
first---Ennis didn't have a car, and no way to get one---so there go many dates, that someone didn't bring one or both of them to social gatherings so they could get together. He and Alma met in school probably, before he had to quit, and before he and his brother had to move cause sister got married and moved--and they couldn't make the rent in town anymore.
second-With Ennis being raised on a working ranch with his brother---they don't get much time off--for much of anything---a few church socials and a few community dances would be about it--Ennis wouldn't have had the time or the money to get anywhere to "sin" so to speak.
He may know what goes on, after all his sister got engaged and married, and his brother just got engaged---and he himself considered himself engaged, but actually being together physically for him and Alma--would have been mostly difficult at best.
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In 1963 Good Girls still DIDN'T!! And out West, in the sticks, even less----I am betting that Alma and Ennis together may have had a few kisses good night---and held hands alittle. that would have been about it. I doubt they were ever actually together alone for any length of time.
first---Ennis didn't have a car, and no way to get one---so there go many dates, that someone didn't bring one or both of them to social gatherings so they could get together. He and Alma met in school probably, before he had to quit, and before he and his brother had to move cause sister got married and moved--and they couldn't make the rent in town anymore.
second-With Ennis being raised on a working ranch with his brother---they don't get much time off--for much of anything---a few church socials and a few community dances would be about it--Ennis wouldn't have had the time or the money to get anywhere to "sin" so to speak.
He may know what goes on, after all his sister got engaged and married, and his brother just got engaged---and he himself considered himself engaged, but actually being together physically for him and Alma--would have been mostly difficult at best.
So Ranchgal:
Are you implying that Ennis is a virgin when he and Jack get together?
Jim
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In 1963 Good Girls still DIDN'T!! And out West, in the sticks, even less----I am betting that Alma and Ennis together may have had a few kisses good night---and held hands alittle. that would have been about it. I doubt they were ever actually together alone for any length of time.
first---Ennis didn't have a car, and no way to get one---so there go many dates, that someone didn't bring one or both of them to social gatherings so they could get together. He and Alma met in school probably, before he had to quit, and before he and his brother had to move cause sister got married and moved--and they couldn't make the rent in town anymore.
second-With Ennis being raised on a working ranch with his brother---they don't get much time off--for much of anything---a few church socials and a few community dances would be about it--Ennis wouldn't have had the time or the money to get anywhere to "sin" so to speak.
He may know what goes on, after all his sister got engaged and married, and his brother just got engaged---and he himself considered himself engaged, but actually being together physically for him and Alma--would have been mostly difficult at best.
So Ranchgal:
Are you implying that Ennis is a virgin when he and Jack get together?
Jim
It would make sense that Ennis could have been a virgin. His only other opportunities back then for premarital sex would have been with a few "fast girls" that may have resided in his area. Although we have no insight into Alma's past, what we see on screen doesn't lead me to believe Alma wasn't a virgin when she and Ennis married. I agree with jimnick. It didn't seem that Ennis had too many opportunities for dating and a sex life.
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Well as my long suffering grandad (the one married to the saintly but ill-tempered granny) used to say;
"Live and learn
die and burn"
"There's no such thing as a bad girl, it's just a good girl found out"
Mae West
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the love that dare not speak it's name
Somehow I think I missed something. What does this quote mean?
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speaking of flirty: What about all those looks in the parking lot, before they enter the trailer. Ok, it is mainly Jack, who is openly flirting there. But Ennis does react...
monicita
I wondered about all them looks in Aguirre's parking lot too.
I thought Jack was trying to stare off competition for the job -- make Ennis feel uncomfortable, sucessfully! -- staring fixedly at the ground.
But maybe not macho competitors so much as flirts (also uncomfortable for our Ennis LOL). Hmmm.
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I thought Jadk was obviously cruising Ennis-and Gyllenhaal says somwhere that they decided to play Jack as if he had had prior experience-but that Ennis saw Jack at this point as a competitor for the job his is seeking. Of course subconciously I think Ennis has more going on.
Parking lot: proulxfan, you've convinced me. That provocative hip Jack plants against the pickup is more than even a 20-year old cowboy, competing for a job, would have used in that social situation.
So I think it's Jack who's got more going than Ennis, who seems inert at this stage to me.
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the love that dare not speak it's name
Somehow I think I missed something. What does this quote mean?
It refers to homosexual love. I'm pretty sure this is the phrase that Oscar Wilde made famous in a book, or at his trial for flagrant gay behaviors in the 1890s when Victorian England *really* would not tolerate such things AT ALL. Religious toleration, but not all tolerations. Heck no.
Wilde is referring to the Great Wall which so many of us felt against *ever* referring to gay love, EVER. Big ban on that in the Victorian world, all the way through to my youth in the 60s. How else are you going to control a bunch of teenager boys in a boarding school, LOL?
I'm starting to think that today's urban teens and 20s and 30s don't really have much sense of the BAN that existed on anything gay. Thank god for the liberalization that has occurred in North America and Europe. I'm still getting used to the fact that the Wall's coming *down* (same rhythm as "gun's goin off" in the BBM story).
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Are you sure that wall is coming down everywhere? I think we tend to underestimate the cruelty of youth. What about rural places, small town USA (or Europe, for all that)? Is it really so much easier for teenagers to be openly gay there?
monicita
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Anyone else get a small "hmmm" moment out of the exchange where Ennis says:
"Maybe you're a sinner, but I ain't yet had the occasion"
I think that's such a flirty thing to say! Very hot. ;D
Yes. It was flirty. Although the scene was not too long leading to the first tent, it was pretty effective.
Other moments I can think of
Ennis: "....what?
Jack: "that's more words than you've spoken in the past weeks."
Ennis: "that's the most I've spoke in a year"
Ennis: "...thought rodeo cowboys was all f***-ups."
Jack: "the hell they are"
After Jack collapsed in the heap. Ennis said, "I think my dad was right." :D
Is the scene you quote flirty?? I'm curious... Can you explain me why?? It's interesting!
Merry
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Merry, I saw the scene as flirty - less by dialogue but by THE LOOK - the bemused sideways glance that Jack gives Ennis and Ennis responds self-consciously and grimaces "What?" I almost lose it.
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Merry, I saw the scene as flirty - less by dialogue but by THE LOOK - the bemused sideways glance that Jack gives Ennis and Ennis responds self-consciously and grimaces "What?" I almost lose it.
I guess I don't see that as so much "flirty" as Ennis opening up and enjoying himself and the company of a buddy for the first time in a long time, perhaps the first time in his life. Maybe I'm just naive...
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Are you sure that wall is coming down everywhere? I think we tend to underestimate the cruelty of youth. What about rural places, small town USA (or Europe, for all that)? Is it really so much easier for teenagers to be openly gay there?
monicita
You're right. I overstated it. I may be compensating for the fact I have a lot more confidence and experience than I did then
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Merry, I saw the scene as flirty - less by dialogue but by THE LOOK - the bemused sideways glance that Jack gives Ennis and Ennis responds self-consciously and grimaces "What?" I almost lose it.
Well, i see what u mean. The scene sounds flirty because of the glance. The text in itself doesn't reveal anything flirty, does it?
Merry
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Are you sure that wall is coming down everywhere? I think we tend to underestimate the cruelty of youth. What about rural places, small town USA (or Europe, for all that)? Is it really so much easier for teenagers to be openly gay there?
monicita
You're right. I overstated it. I may be compensating for the fact I have a lot more confidence and experience than I did then
And good for you, I say! But oops, we're a bit off topic here, aren't we ? Well, I wish you all the confidence in the world and a lot of wonderful experience(s) still to come!
monicita
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I have a question I have from my last viewing of BBM..when Ennis makes the statement 'Well, you may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity'. Some people in the cinema made some 'oh, yeah..right' kind of remarks - not loudly but I did hear some sniggering (from the men watching with other men I should say). It felt to me as though Ennis was making a thinly veiled sexual comment, and his grin towards Jack (and then handing him the whiskey bottle) compounded this. Was this his intention I wonder? It just seemed very out of character for Ennis to say that in a flirtatious way but it sounded to me as though that is how he meant it in the film. I just wanted to know if others had picked that up, and what they thought of it.
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I have a question I have from my last viewing of BBM..when Ennis makes the statement 'Well, you may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity'. [...]
Hello have merged the two threads...hope you don't mind
x froggy
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I think Ennis knew very well what he was saying. It's was an veiled invitation to Jack. In essence, he was giving Jack the first opportunity to make the move. If Jack did, you knew that Ennis would respond.
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Cowboy Cody (et al...)
I agree with all of you on this and that surprises me because I didn't see it that way the first 2 times I saw the film. I guess they're both feeling the effects of the whiskey and are pretty relaxed, but Ennis's knowing look toward Jack when he delivers that line is priceless!! I'ts so very different from the way he talks and behaves through the other 90% of the film. Maybe Ennis just needed to get a buzz on more often... ;D
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Proulxfan - Wish I had the opportunity to take Ennis to the alibi, that woulda loosened him up for Jack!
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I should be careful about that. One of the subtexts in the film implies that both Jack and Ennis drank heavily at home. But if I were married to Lureen, I might too...
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I love that line... it does seem a little flirty... :)
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& then Jack follows with "mmmmm...." & handovers the whisky bottle.
it was double knock sexy
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... but Ennis's knowing look toward Jack when he delivers that line is priceless!! It's so very different from the way he talks and behaves through the other 90% of the film.
I've seen this film 18 times now and every time I view this scene I'm more convinced it's somewhat flirty. The alcohol was definitely bringing out how comfortable Ennis was feeling around Jack. Flirty or not, you can't ignore just how sexy Ennis was at that moment! IMO this scene and "What?" are two incredibly (maybe even unintentionally) sexy moments for Ennis. I just melt each time I see these scenes!
I WANT MY OWN ENNIS!! ;D
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I WANT MY OWN ENNIS!! ;D
Join the club! Me too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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... but Ennis's knowing look toward Jack when he delivers that line is priceless!! It's so very different from the way he talks and behaves through the other 90% of the film.
I've seen this film 18 times now and every time I view this scene I'm more convinced it's somewhat flirty. The alcohol was definitely bringing out how comfortable Ennis was feeling around Jack. Flirty or not, you can't ignore just how sexy Ennis was at that moment! IMO this scene and "What?" are two incredibly (maybe even unintentionally) sexy moments for Ennis. I just melt each time I see these scenes!
I WANT MY OWN ENNIS!! ;D
Jarwill - I'm a sending up a prayer that you get one!
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I WANT MY OWN ENNIS!! ;D
Join the club! Me too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Damnit! more competition! :P
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... but Ennis's knowing look toward Jack when he delivers that line is priceless!! It's so very different from the way he talks and behaves through the other 90% of the film.
... and "What?" are two incredibly (maybe even unintentionally) sexy moments for Ennis. I just melt each time I see these scenes!
I WANT MY OWN ENNIS!! ;D
YES!! the 'what?" scene is adorable...and sexy.... and I would like to add one very brief smile... after Jack says the "Is there anything interesting up in there in heaven?' line and Ennis playfully responds " I was just sending up a prayer of thanks. For you forgetting to bring that harmonica.I'm enjoying the peace and quiet" Then he gives a quick smirk and a wink that is priceless."
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... but Ennis's knowing look toward Jack when he delivers that line is priceless!! It's so very different from the way he talks and behaves through the other 90% of the film.
... and "What?" are two incredibly (maybe even unintentionally) sexy moments for Ennis. I just melt each time I see these scenes!
I WANT MY OWN ENNIS!! ;D
YES!! the 'what?" scene is adorable...and sexy.... and I would like to add one very brief smile... after Jack says the "Is there anything interesting up in there in heaven?' line and Ennis playfully responds " I was just sending up a prayer of thanks. For you forgetting to bring that harmonica.I'm enjoying the peace and quiet" Then he gives a quick smirk and a wink that is priceless."
GEEZZZ! How could I forget that scene? Okay, that's 3 scenes that make me melt!!! What the hell am I going to do when the DVD comes out? I'll never leave my apartment...except for work. Gotta do that to have the apartment!! ;)
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I WANT MY OWN ENNIS!! ;D
Join the club! Me too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Damnit! more competition! :P
looks like there is not competition for Jack........ i will have him without a fight.
I can see his eyes (without myself blinking)........ for a life!
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it was definately flirty when he said he wasnt a sinner, I loved it I thought it was cute
what is the "What?" scene you guys are talking about?
P.S. I too want my OWN ENNIS haha!
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it was definately flirty when he said he wasnt a sinner, I loved it I thought it was cute
what is the "What?" scene you guys are talking about?
P.S. I too want my OWN ENNIS haha!
Oh, No! another competitor, signorina froggy won't be happy
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what is the "What?" scene you guys are talking about?
"What?" scene...Jack tells Ennis that's more you've spoken in 2 weeks...Jack Twist: That's more words than you've spoke in the past two weeks.
Ennis Del Mar: Hell, that's the most I've spoke in a year.
P.S. I too want my OWN ENNIS haha!
>:( >:( >:( LOL ;D .. as long as you don't want Heath!
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P.S. I too want my OWN ENNIS haha!
>:( >:( >:( LOL ;D .. as long as you don't want Heath!
Actually, my "perfect" Ennis would have the same voice and mannerisms from the movie. Dark hair, facial hair, and over 45 would seal the deal! ;)
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P.S. I too want my OWN ENNIS haha!
>:( >:( >:( LOL ;D .. as long as you don't want Heath!
Actually, my "perfect" Ennis would have the same voice and mannerisms from the movie. Dark hair, facial hair, and over 45 would seal the deal! ;)
Oh well then my Heath is out of the question then.. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Oh well then my Heath is out of the question then.. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yep!! Heath is absolutely adorable...premium eye candy!!
He's just too young for this middle-aged sinner. ;)
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I'll fight anyone for Jack. MINE, MINE, MINE!
I LOVE YOU JACK!
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P.S. I too want my OWN ENNIS haha!
>:( >:( >:( LOL ;D .. as long as you don't want Heath!
Actually, my "perfect" Ennis would have the same voice and mannerisms from the movie. Dark hair, facial hair, and over 45 would seal the deal! ;)
I hate that competition, jarwill-nc just described MY Ennis ;D
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chameau - you mean there's no dark haired fellas up there in Montreal to scout out?
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chameau - you mean there's no dark haired fellas up there in Montreal to scout out?
Plenty! Nothing to match Ennis :P
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Like I said before, there's only one way to avoid an ugly fight to the finish over Jack and Ennis: we've gotta send 'em both to Kamino and create a clone army! (The original Jack is mine, though!) ;D
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I'll fight anyone for Jack. MINE, MINE, MINE!
I LOVE YOU JACK!
So does this mean you're partial to Jack? ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Let's put it this way, I wouldn't kidnap the man, but if I EVER had the chance to get a hug from Jake, I'd melt. Both of my boys are special, hard not to pick Ennis, because you feel so much of the lonliness and being unable to break away because of society, but Jack resonates with me. Maybe because I'm in somewhat of a long distance relationship (not real long, but long enough that it keeps us apart and living very separate lives at times), that I understand Jack's feelings. When he tells Ennis, "You don't know how bad it gets sometimes", I can hardly get a breath when he says that.
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Let's put it this way, I wouldn't kidnap the man, but if I EVER had the chance to get a hug from Jake, I'd melt. Both of my boys are special, hard not to pick Ennis, because you feel so much of the lonliness and being unable to break away because of society, but Jack resonates with me. Maybe because I'm in somewhat of a long distance relationship (not real long, but long enough that it keeps us apart and living very separate lives at times), that I understand Jack's feelings. When he tells Ennis, "You don't know how bad it gets sometimes", I can hardly get a breath when he says that.
I think I can relate to that. About 22 years ago, I wanted to maintain a relationship with someone I was crazy about. I was sent to Houston and he had to move back to New York. My first three months in Houston were almost unbearable. I came real close to boarding a plane for an extended weekend in New York just to see him. I had to be crazy about him because I was (and still am) afraid of air travel. Unfortunately, my last discussion with him before heading to the airport made me realize the trip would have done little to sustain this relationship. We haven't spoken since although I think of him often! Crazy isn't it?
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Friend, you ain't crazy. I understand those feelings perfectly. If you care to read, i posted about my own brokeback mountain, in the appropriate section of course.
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Friend, you ain't crazy. I understand those feelings perfectly. If you care to read, i posted about my own brokeback mountain, in the appropriate section of course.
I'll read. Thanks for the referral. :)
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"Every Saint has a past
every sinner has a future"
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"Every Saint has a past
every sinner has a future"
Tell You What, Ain't it the TRUTH!
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so is it a sinner if v had premarital sex?
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hhhhmmmmm, now that's a hard one. In fact that's the first thing Eve said when she saw Adam.
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so is it a sinner if v had premarital sex?
I do think that's exactly what they were talking about. And while I'm younger than these two characters, but at that age in those years I think "sin" was all about vices like drinking, swearing, gambling and sex. But primarily sex. Clearly our boys see drinking, swearing and probably gambling as just a part of life, and so it seems very clear that sex is it.
And yes, after Ennis admits he's never had the opportunity, Jack's muffled laugh and pass of the bottle is d e f i n i t e flirting in my book. didn't pick up on it the first viewing or two, but every time since that scene has just screamed at me. I love it!
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No way is that crazy! I've been holding on to a long distance relationship (Mexico-Germany) for two years. Now I'm back in Europe, and it's beginning to fall apart. Life is just such a bitch, sometimes. I think, as many have said on other threads, the love story is all the more poignant and enduring, because of the long distance element. Without that, it would have been a completely different story. And from experience I would say: Long distance keeps the longing and the passion alive for much longer. But it is a very high price to pay :'(
monicita
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No way is that crazy! I've been holding on to a long distance relationship (Mexico-Germany) for two years. Now I'm back in Europe, and it's beginning to fall apart. Life is just such a bitch, sometimes. I think, as many have said on other threads, the love story is all the more poignant and enduring, because of the long distance element. Without that, it would have been a completely different story. And from experience I would say: Long distance keeps the longing and the passion alive for much longer. But it is a very high price to pay :'(
monicita
Monicita - BIG HUG! :'(
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Long distance keeps the longing and the passion alive for much longer. But it is a very high price to pay :'(
Hold my hand Monicitta, :-*
Been there I know what you fell :'( :'( :'(
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GROUP HUG! :'( :'(
We've experienced those LD breakups, not the easiest thing to endure.
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GROUP HUG! :'( :'(
We've experienced those LD breakups, not the easiest thing to endure.
Yup!
Your head tell you not go there and your heart pulls you on the opposite way :'(
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That's the worst thing in the world for a Taurus. Being led by the head, which at times tend to over rule the heart, but I've been a work in progress on this since I was 22.
Chameau Buddy, you and I could write books about lost love!
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That's the worst thing in the world for a Taurus. Being led by the head, which at times tend to over rule the heart, but I've been a work in progress on this since I was 22.
Chameau Buddy, you and I could write books about lost love!
Capricorns are very straight forward people... everyday wise I would say.
I'm a Capricorn.
But when the Heart is involved... :P
I'd like to know what my fellow Capricorn Ethan would say about this.
Still off topic chameau :-X
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GROUP HUG! :'( :'(
We've experienced those LD breakups, not the easiest thing to endure.
since mine I've decided that the next zip code is as far as I'm going.
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Monicita -- I'm here for ya. **hug**
Long distance relationships are the hardest but we always fall for them.
Ennis did seem a bit flirty with the "sinner" line. I look at is as not much as a flirt but more of an opening up. Ennis probably never talked about himself or his feelings to the extent he did with Jack. Although Alma was a sweet thing it looks more and more that Ennis was just going through the motions with her.
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>>>So does this mean you're partial to Jack?
I think we all are lol ;) Poor Alma didn't really stand a chance with him around lol.
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Had a LD relationship..difficult in the end, ugly break up..then that b***ard started dating a cow 1 months after we broke up! They now live together and just recently had a child!
Long distance relationship ..been there, done that, NEVER wants to buy the t-shirt again..and if anyone says "never say never" I'll make you eat frogs legs!!! :P
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Froggie,
I thought frog's legs were supposed to taste like chicken! And just food for thought...My partner and I did the LD thing for a year before we decided to live together, and we've been together 10 years now, so sometimes it can work out.
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Froggie,
I thought frog's legs were supposed to taste like chicken! And just food for thought...My partner and I did the LD thing for a year before we decided to live together, and we've been together 10 years now, so sometimes it can work out.
I know it can...but I'v burnt my wings ... and don't know if I could survive another break like the one I had!
Frog's legs do taste like fine chicken...Ok I'll change it to SNAILS!!! no garlic, no parsley...just snails!
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Froggie,
I thought frog's legs were supposed to taste like chicken! And just food for thought...My partner and I did the LD thing for a year before we decided to live together, and we've been together 10 years now, so sometimes it can work out.
I know it can...but I'v burnt my wings ... and don't know if I could survive another break like the one I had!
Frog's legs do taste like fine chicken...Ok I'll change it to SNAILS!!! no garlic, no parsley...just snails!
Frog Legs are YUMMY! I've not had those in ages, wish I could find them someplace.
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Ok, I know this topic has kind of ended and moved on, but just had to share my thoughts from my 4th viewing last night.
Really saw it in all it's wonderful glory last night....it's a fantastic scene from start to finish, especially as we know what it leads to! Jack singing his heart out, Ennis being his audience, and them both, slurringly getting into a drunken talk about what a pentacost is, only for Jack to realise he doesn't have a clue! His own definition gives Ennis the opportunity for one of his few (only?) flirty comments, "maybe you're a sinner.....". AND THAT LOOK ENNIS GIVES JACK AFTER SAYING THAT!!!! WOW! THAT IS REALLY HOT!!!!!!
Don't know about any of you, but I could feel the sexual tension between them during this exchange, obviously fuelled by whiskey, but for Ennis to come out with that comment AND THAT LOOK, I think Jack was a little floored by it.....don't remember seeing Jack's face to this comment from Ennis, but remember him passing the whiskey over to Ennis and Ennis taking it, with THAT KNOWING SMILE on his face.......unspoken, but oh my, would I have loved to know what he was thinking right then!
** feels hot, needs cold shower ** :P :P :P :P
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Really saw it in all it's wonderful glory last night....it's a fantastic scene from start to finish, especially as we know what it leads to! Jack singing his heart out, Ennis being his audience, and them both, slurringly getting into a drunken talk about what a pentacost is, only for Jack to realise he doesn't have a clue! His own definition gives Ennis the opportunity for one of his few (only?) flirty comments, "maybe you're a sinner.....". AND THAT LOOK ENNIS GIVES JACK AFTER SAYING THAT!!!! WOW! THAT IS REALLY HOT!!!!!!
I'm soooo glad you said that!!! If I had been Jack I would have blurted "yer opportunity's right here bud!"
Don't know about any of you, but I could feel the sexual tension between them during this exchange, obviously fuelled by whiskey, but for Ennis to come out with that comment AND THAT LOOK, I think Jack was a little floored by it.....don't remember seeing Jack's face to this comment from Ennis, but remember him passing the whiskey over to Ennis and Ennis taking it, with THAT KNOWING SMILE on his face.......unspoken, but oh my, would I have loved to know what he was thinking right then!
** feels hot, needs cold shower ** :P :P :P :P
I'm glad I've seen this film numerous times. I didn't fully appreciate how hot this scene was until the second viewing and beyond. WOW!! SOOO HOT!!
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It was so interesting reading all these posts. I can only conclude that I missed a lot of what you saw ! ::) I agree there was flirting, but I saw it as brotherly, a friendship where they spent hours talking to each other, talking about themselves, feeling completely at ease with each other. I thought Jack was hoping for more physical contacts... but not exactly sex. I still think that in the first tent scene, the first feelings are just between two good friends. One is outside freezing to death, the other helps him out. Only later, after they've been in the tent together for some time, Jack, feeling horny, tries his luck. There is surprise, hesitation, then... no more reins ! But imho, I think sexual attraction found them, they weren't really jumping into it.
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I really think Ennis was flirting with Jack, said it and then kind of a knowing look....anywhere else this mentioned?
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It was so interesting reading all these posts. I can only conclude that I missed a lot of what you saw ! ::) I agree there was flirting, but I saw it as brotherly, a friendship where they spent hours talking to each other, talking about themselves, feeling completely at ease with each other. I thought Jack was hoping for more physical contacts... but not exactly sex. I still think that in the first tent scene, the first feelings are just between two good friends. One is outside freezing to death, the other helps him out. Only later, after they've been in the tent together for some time, Jack, feeling horny, tries his luck. There is surprise, hesitation, then... no more reins ! But imho, I think sexual attraction found them, they weren't really jumping into it.
You posted a viewpoint that I won't attempt to dispute. Personally, I'm looking at this scene from the perspective of a..well....horny man. Nearly 8 years of celibacy has made me more responsive to subtle body language. (Ok..too much information! :-X) 21 viewings later and I still feel Ennis's was a little flirty in that scene. As wonderfuly tender as the 2nd tent scene was, this scene always arouses me a little. It's because of the look on Ennis's face when he says "you may be a sinner..." I would absolutely melt if someone looked at me that way. :P
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Personally, I'm looking at this scene from the perspective of a..well....horny man.
I know what you mean, cowboy !
21 viewings later and I still feel Ennis's was a little flirty in that scene. As wonderfuly tender as the 2nd tent scene was, this scene always arouses me a little. It's because of the look on Ennis's face when he says "you may be a sinner..." I would absolutely melt if someone looked at me that way. :P
That 2nd tent scene ? OMG, it's never left my mind since first viewing !
There is no doubt in my mind that Ennis was "fishing" for talks about sinning. I guess you could almost call it foreplay ! I love foreplay ! :-X
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It was so interesting reading all these posts. I can only conclude that I missed a lot of what you saw ! ::) I agree there was flirting, but I saw it as brotherly, a friendship where they spent hours talking to each other, talking about themselves, feeling completely at ease with each other. I thought Jack was hoping for more physical contacts... but not exactly sex. I still think that in the first tent scene, the first feelings are just between two good friends. One is outside freezing to death, the other helps him out. Only later, after they've been in the tent together for some time, Jack, feeling horny, tries his luck. There is surprise, hesitation, then... no more reins ! But imho, I think sexual attraction found them, they weren't really jumping into it.
You posted a viewpoint that I won't attempt to dispute. Personally, I'm looking at this scene from the perspective of a..well....horny man. Nearly 8 years of celibacy has made me more responsive to subtle body language. (Ok..too much information! :-X) 21 viewings later and I still feel Ennis's was a little flirty in that scene. As wonderfuly tender as the 2nd tent scene was, this scene always arouses me a little. It's because of the look on Ennis's face when he says "you may be a sinner..." I would absolutely melt if someone looked at me that way. :P
AMEN on this one! right to the point, If Ennis stating to Jack I ain't had a the opportunity yet, that was certainly a clue to Jack
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AMEN on this one! right to the point, If Ennis stating to Jack I ain't had a the opportunity yet, that was certainly a clue to Jack
I have to agree! The first thing that would have crossed my mind would have been "Is he....could he be...?" ???
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P.S. I too want my OWN ENNIS haha!
>:( >:( >:( LOL ;D .. as long as you don't want Heath!
Actually, my "perfect" Ennis would have the same voice and mannerisms from the movie. Dark hair, facial hair, and over 45 would seal the deal! ;)
If Jack ages the way he did in the film....he is going to be like George Clooney....the older the better!!!!
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P.S. I too want my OWN ENNIS haha!
>:( >:( >:( LOL ;D .. as long as you don't want Heath!
Actually, my "perfect" Ennis would have the same voice and mannerisms from the movie. Dark hair, facial hair, and over 45 would seal the deal! ;)
If Jack ages the way he did in the film....he is going to be like George Clooney....the older the better!!!!
I hear ya talkin Rod! Maturity definitely has its appeal!!
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Uh uh, speak for yourself. You may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity.
Was Ennis telling Jack he was a virgin?
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Was Ennis telling Jack he was a virgin?
I think 'yes'.
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A very sly fliiration on Ennis' part. Hoping to get a rise out of Jack and a little more feed back. Ennis didn't miss that careful looking over Jack gave him earlier at the trailer.
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P.S. I too want my OWN ENNIS haha!
>:( >:( >:( LOL ;D .. as long as you don't want Heath!
Actually, my "perfect" Ennis would have the same voice and mannerisms from the movie. Dark hair, facial hair, and over 45 would seal the deal! ;)
If Jack ages the way he did in the film....he is going to be like George Clooney....the older the better!!!!
PLEASSSSSSSSSSSSSE I pray with all of my heart that he doesn't look anything like George Clooney, I am sorry if I offend anyone, but give jack some credit in the good looks gene pool, as for GC there is nothing sexy nor apealling about the guy, I truly don't get it, give me some Orlando Bloom some Jake Gyllenhaal, some Heath ledger and Ewen Mcgregor, but Clooney, not in my books
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P.S. I too want my OWN ENNIS haha!
>:( >:( >:( LOL ;D .. as long as you don't want Heath!
Actually, my "perfect" Ennis would have the same voice and mannerisms from the movie. Dark hair, facial hair, and over 45 would seal the deal! ;)
If Jack ages the way he did in the film....he is going to be like George Clooney....the older the better!!!!
PLEASSSSSSSSSSSSSE I pray with all of my heart that he doesn't look anything like George Clooney, I am sorry if I offend anyone, but give jack some credit in the good looks gene pool, as for GC there is nothing sexy nor apealling about the guy, I truly don't get it, give me some Orlando Bloom some Jake Gyllenhaal, some Heath ledger and Ewen Mcgregor, but Clooney, not in my books
Not that he looks anything like George Clooney, my point was he is going to age beautifully....
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If Jack ages the way he did in the film....he is going to be like George Clooney....the older the better!!!!
I'm luvin this way of thinking!!!
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He's just mighty handsome! :D
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Does anyone know where I can get old of this scene? I love it so much, and am missing Ennis's cute attempts at flirting! :P
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Does anyone know where I can get old of this scene? I love it so much, and am missing Ennis's cute attempts at flirting! :P
What scene are you talking about christie?
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Does anyone know where I can get old of this scene? I love it so much, and am missing Ennis's cute attempts at flirting! :P
What scene are you talking about christie?
Hi Patriot1
The scene I'm talking about is the one where Ennis and Jack are around the campfire, talking and getting drunk, and Ennis says "May be you're a sinner....." - it's the scene just before the 1st tent scene.
Hope you - or anyone else - can help!
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Sorry my friends but I had to delete patriot1 post with the link to the scene requested. This actoin have been discussed with the other moderators ans we all agreed.
If I could kindly remind you we do not accept postings of full scenes from BBM on this forum. May I suggest you go to this link:
http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=782.0
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Hi Patriot1
The scene I'm talking about is the one where Ennis and Jack are around the campfire, talking and getting drunk, and Ennis says "May be you're a sinner....." - it's the scene just before the 1st tent scene.
Hope you - or anyone else - can help!
Sorry christie. I tried.
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To me it is quite apparrent that Ennis is saying he's a virgin. Is he flirting? I don't think so, that's just an opinion. Ennis has lived with his sister and brother in a pretty sexually sheltered life. According to Annie in the story he is aware of the dynamics of sex, "nothing he'd done before but no instruction manual needed." Jack I believe has had some kind of experience, and I think it was more than just the, "I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours" kind. Ennis knows how to spank the monkey, pardon the expression, but that's about it til he meets Jack.
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I think it is absolutely clear that Ennis is a virgin. Thta is what he is saying but if you look at the wink of his eyes and a subtle smile you understand that it might be a kind of subconcious flirtation.
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I think it is absolutely clear that Ennis is a virgin. Thta is what he is saying but if you look at the wink of his eyes and a subtle smile you understand that it might be a kind of subconcious flirtation.
There is one this we can definitely get out of this scene. Ennis is a young man. Young men do not usually admit they are virgins; especially in 1963. So, we can definitely see that Ennis is so comfortable with his new friend Jack that he can readily admit to Jack he is a virgin. The scene shows us just how close the two boys have become.
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I think it is absolutely clear that Ennis is a virgin. Thta is what he is saying but if you look at the wink of his eyes and a subtle smile you understand that it might be a kind of subconcious flirtation.
There is one this we can definitely get out of this scene. Ennis is a young man. Young men do not usually admit they are virgins; especially in 1963. So, we can definitely see that Ennis is so comfortable with his new friend Jack that he can readily admit to Jack he is a virgin. The scene shows us just how close the two boys have become.
I agree with you on that, Patriot... good logic.
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Well i have read the thread and it makes perfect sense that Ennis was virgin when he met jack probably jack not and more after the four years i don't know but in the story it makes reference that jack had being mounting more than bulls maybe it was meaning that he was a lot experienced that ennis himself and that is why he took the leading role to induce ennis to be with him the first time.
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Well i have read the thread and it makes perfect sense that Ennis was virgin when he met jack probably jack not and more after the four years i don't know but in the story it makes reference that jack had being mounting more than bulls maybe it was meaning that he was a lot experienced that ennis himself and that is why he took the leading role to induce ennis to be with him the first time.
You are right, he did take the lead, but what confuses me is why he did with Ennis's hand what he did. What on earth made him think a straight, virgin homophobe would go for that on the first night. I could understand it better if it were the other way around.
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what is the "What?" scene you guys are talking about?
"What?" scene...Jack tells Ennis that's more you've spoken in 2 weeks...Jack Twist: That's more words than you've spoke in the past two weeks.
Ennis Del Mar: Hell, that's the most I've spoke in a year.
P.S. I too want my OWN ENNIS haha!
>:( >:( >:( LOL ;D .. as long as you don't want Heath!
I realize this was a month ago.. but still i will respond haha.
Yes, I want HEATH sorry froggy. His thing with Michelle is only temporary because he hasn't met me yet :P haha! When he does meet me, the fishing trips will commence :D! LOL!! ;D
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Well i have read the thread and it makes perfect sense that Ennis was virgin when he met jack probably jack not and more after the four years i don't know but in the story it makes reference that jack had being mounting more than bulls maybe it was meaning that he was a lot experienced that ennis himself and that is why he took the leading role to induce ennis to be with him the first time.
You are right, he did take the lead, but what confuses me is why he did with Ennis's hand what he did. What on earth made him think a straight, virgin homophobe would go for that on the first night. I could understand it better if it were the other way around.
you have the answer right there virgin, and it was the kind of person that with a couples of whiskey he can influence
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You are right, he did take the lead, but what confuses me is why he did with Ennis's hand what he did. What on earth made him think a straight, virgin homophobe would go for that on the first night. I could understand it better if it were the other way around.
Yeah, this really surprised me. The only way I could make sense of it was that it was done subconsciously by Jack in his sleep. I think Jack had been with men before and maybe this was a gesture he had used in the past? - Nancy
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But also says something about his perference, I mean he is engaged at that time to Alma, so why nothing with her?
;)He's sitting next to Jack, getting a headful of Jack's pheromones every time he breathes.
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You are right, he did take the lead, but what confuses me is why he did with Ennis's hand what he did. What on earth made him think a straight, virgin homophobe would go for that on the first night. I could understand it better if it were the other way around.
Yeah, this really surprised me. The only way I could make sense of it was that it was done subconsciously by Jack in his sleep. I think Jack had been with men before and maybe this was a gesture he had used in the past? - Nancy
Don't forget, they were both drunk. Alcohol lowers inhibitions, and they were 19 years old studs.
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"maybe you're a sinner but i ain't yet had the opportunity"
oh i love that quote.. its just so cute. haha. Ennis is definately trying to flirt with Jack at this point and I love it I think its adorable!!
"maybe you're a sinner, but i ain't yet had the opportunity" same here ennis!! or maybe i did? does wrestling count? LOL!!
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Like Billy Joel sings..."I'd rather laugh with the sinners than die with the saints..."
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what is the "What?" scene you guys are talking about?
"What?" scene...Jack tells Ennis that's more you've spoken in 2 weeks...Jack Twist: That's more words than you've spoke in the past two weeks.
Ennis Del Mar: Hell, that's the most I've spoke in a year.
P.S. I too want my OWN ENNIS haha!
>:( >:( >:( LOL ;D .. as long as you don't want Heath!
I LOVE ENNIS in this scene: the way he's talking, holding his cup into his chest like he's embracing it (he wishes it was Jack), the cute little way he looks at Jack and asks, "What?" (as if to say what are you looking at me so intently for - it reminds me of someone fishing for a compliment or an expression of lve/feelings) HE IS JUST SOOOOO ADORABLE!!!!
I thought when I first saw this that I was in love with Heath, but I realize it is Ennis that I love. He is just like a lost puppy that you want to take home and SMOTHER with love. - Nancy
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Am I the only person here who did not think that Ennis was admitting that he was a virgin? (Although I'm sure he was) Maybe it's because I am thinking in 2006, but I don't think of sex as a sin. Ennis always plays by the rules and I thought he was just saying that he had never really done anything wrong??????????
After reading all the posts about this quote, I can understand everyone's thinking but I am still not totally convinced that that is what Ennis meant. - Nancy
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Am I the only person here who did not think that Ennis was admitting that he was a virgin? (Although I'm sure he was) Maybe it's because I am thinking in 2006, but I don't think of sex as a sin. Ennis always plays by the rules and I thought he was just saying that he had never really done anything wrong??????????
After reading all the posts about this quote, I can understand everyone's thinking but I am still not totally convinced that that is what Ennis meant. - Nancy
After reading your post I watched that segment of the movie several times, read the screenplay and story and I still come away thinking he was referring to having sex out of wedlock. But, its just how I perceive it. Could be wrong of course.
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I still am of the opinion that whilst Ennis is saying to Jack he had generally done no wrong in his life, perhaps subconsciously he's telling Jack he's never "sinned" in a sexual way - least of all with a man - and when Jack offers him the drink it's symbolic of being offered temptation. Ennis is glad of this opportunity and says "thank you". No co-incidence that the immediate chain of events leading from that bottle of whiskey ends with the two men developing their intimacy considerably. I honestly believe both boys are sensing a form of electricity between them by that stage. Ennis is saying he doesn't know if he should act on his desire, Jack's saying "hey lets hasten things up a little". IMHO.
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I still am of the opinion that whilst Ennis is saying to Jack he had generally done no wrong in his life, perhaps subconsciously he's telling Jack he's never "sinned" in a sexual way - least of all with a man - and when Jack offers him the drink it's symbolic of being offered temptation. Ennis is glad of this opportunity and says "thank you". No co-incidence that the immediate chain of events leading from that bottle of whiskey ends with the two men developing their intimacy considerably. I honestly believe both boys are sensing a form of electricity between them by that stage. Ennis is saying he doesn't know if he should act on his desire, Jack's saying "hey lets hasten things up a little". IMHO.
Oh there is something definitely going on between these two at this point - unexplainable to Ennis,exciting to Jack, and between the two,they can feel some kind of chemistry forming, some electricity that goes beyond friendship. Ennis definitely needed Jack to lead him to that though......
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Totally agree in that, if jack hadn't grab Ennis's hand to his you know what Ennis wouldn't even dream of trying anything it was not in his nature of being to take that step.
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I can't read this whole thread right now, though I'd like nothing better...but here's what I noticed in this scene last time I watched. You know how you find yourself looking at one of them and not seeing something cool the other one's doing? Well, I'm always looking at Ennis -- his beating the stick in time to Jack's singing and all that; and later, I'm still looking at him when he says this very flirty thing...and so I've missed, after Ennis says "...ain't never had the opportunity," that Jack says "Mmmmm...." and then a full-wattage smile on his face. I love it.
kathy
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I can't read this whole thread right now, though I'd like nothing better...but here's what I noticed in this scene last time I watched. You know how you find yourself looking at one of them and not seeing something cool the other one's doing? Well, I'm always looking at Ennis -- his beating the stick in time to Jack's singing and all that; and later, I'm still looking at him when he says this very flirty thing...and so I've missed, after Ennis says "...ain't never had the opportunity," that Jack says "Mmmmm...." and then a full-wattage smile on his face. I love it.
kathy
Jeez - I've never spotted that either. Might need to watch that again at some point ;)
Seriously, in my earlier viewings I tended to be very Ennis-centred, watching his every move and expression, so I missed quite a lot of things that Jack was doing (especially the facial expressions and sighs when Ennis is washing himself) I've concentrated more on Jack in recent times, but I clearly need to try harder!
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I can't read this whole thread right now, though I'd like nothing better...but here's what I noticed in this scene last time I watched. You know how you find yourself looking at one of them and not seeing something cool the other one's doing? Well, I'm always looking at Ennis -- his beating the stick in time to Jack's singing and all that; and later, I'm still looking at him when he says this very flirty thing...and so I've missed, after Ennis says "...ain't never had the opportunity," that Jack says "Mmmmm...." and then a full-wattage smile on his face. I love it.
kathy
Jeez - I've never spotted that either. Might need to watch that again at some point ;)
Seriously, in my earlier viewings I tended to be very Ennis-centred, watching his every move and expression, so I missed quite a lot of things that Jack was doing (especially the facial expressions and sighs when Ennis is washing himself) I've concentrated more on Jack in recent times, but I clearly need to try harder!
I had noticed that thing Jack does, but only on about the 50th time of viewing! As like you Lindsey, I tend to look completely at Ennis, he captivates my attention. But when you look at Jack, and he goes "mmmm" while handing the whiskey back to Ennis, its so clearly a flirty exchange, no doubt about it. But Ennis being Ennis, he's totally embarrassed, and can hardly look at Jack again, oh I love that bit so much, when he takes the whiskey and says "thank you" with that smile on his face. I think Jack's reaction to that line from Ennis is one of surprise too, because I dont think Jack expected Ennis to say such a thing! Dont think Ennis did either come to that. :)
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I wonder where the expression came from - Ennis doesn't seem to have much connection with organised religion - was this something he got from his mother when he was a child? Ennis always seems to have a sense of sin, of consequences, that's one of the things that must hold him back emotionally. But at this point - because he's been drinking? is feeling more relaxed than he's ever done before? is carried along by Jack and says things he otherwise wouldn't? is trying out ways of behaving he's never explored before? - he suddenly makes a slightly suggestive comment ( and that's not typical of him) about a serious topic ( ditto).
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My personal take on this scene is that Ennis has finally reached a point where he can be open and trusting with Jack about himself. From my experience, most 19 year olds back in the early 60's were loath to admit that they were virgins. Jacks smile is one of recognition of how much Ennis has opened up to him.
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I think Jack's reaction to that line from Ennis is one of surprise too, because I dont think Jack expected Ennis to say such a thing! Dont think Ennis did either come to that. :)
Oh sure they did christie wood. It was in the script, page 17, about 2/3 the way down. ;) ;D
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I can't read this whole thread right now, though I'd like nothing better...but here's what I noticed in this scene last time I watched. You know how you find yourself looking at one of them and not seeing something cool the other one's doing? Well, I'm always looking at Ennis -- his beating the stick in time to Jack's singing and all that; and later, I'm still looking at him when he says this very flirty thing...and so I've missed, after Ennis says "...ain't never had the opportunity," that Jack says "Mmmmm...." and then a full-wattage smile on his face. I love it.
kathy
Jeez - I've never spotted that either. Might need to watch that again at some point ;)
Seriously, in my earlier viewings I tended to be very Ennis-centred, watching his every move and expression, so I missed quite a lot of things that Jack was doing (especially the facial expressions and sighs when Ennis is washing himself) I've concentrated more on Jack in recent times, but I clearly need to try harder!
I had noticed that thing Jack does, but only on about the 50th time of viewing! As like you Lindsey, I tend to look completely at Ennis, he captivates my attention. But when you look at Jack, and he goes "mmmm" while handing the whiskey back to Ennis, its so clearly a flirty exchange, no doubt about it. But Ennis being Ennis, he's totally embarrassed, and can hardly look at Jack again, oh I love that bit so much, when he takes the whiskey and says "thank you" with that smile on his face. I think Jack's reaction to that line from Ennis is one of surprise too, because I dont think Jack expected Ennis to say such a thing! Dont think Ennis did either come to that. :)
Oh yes indeed, what a wonderful scene. Now I got ants in my pants to get home and watch -- it's been a while since I've indulged. I love how you point out that Ennis didn't really expect himself to be so flirty and then is embarrassed, after Jack's response, who also didn't expect that flirtiness. Also, about Ennis saying thank you when Jack hands him the whiskey bottle. I think he also says thank you when Jack pours some in his cup when by the fire, in the "more'n you spoke in two weeks" scene. I think that's when. And also in the beginning, in the bar, when Jack hands him his lighter.
An OT aside. I have a theory about this, the thank-you's. Nothing earthshaking or anything...but I've noticed at times what a very polite man Heath is. Manners in a sense that many people don't have these days. Probably the way he was raised. Anyway, he probably put in all those thank-you's out of his own personal habit.
kathy
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Oh yes indeed, what a wonderful scene. Now I got ants in my pants to get home and watch -- it's been a while since I've indulged. I love how you point out that Ennis didn't really expect himself to be so flirty and then is embarrassed, after Jack's response, who also didn't expect that flirtiness. Also, about Ennis saying thank you when Jack hands him the whiskey bottle. I think he also says thank you when Jack pours some in his cup when by the fire, in the "more'n you spoke in two weeks" scene. I think that's when. And also in the beginning, in the bar, when Jack hands him his lighter.
An OT aside. I have a theory about this, the thank-you's. Nothing earthshaking or anything...but I've noticed at times what a very polite man Heath is. Manners in a sense that many people don't have these days. Probably the way he was raised. Anyway, he probably put in all those thank-you's out of his own personal habit.
kathy
I love to think that, too, kathy, because I always think of one thing Heath says in the LOGOS special interview--that he always likes to bare his soul a little in films. I like to think that he did a *lot* of soul-baring in this film!
Sorry--know that was *o). Hmm . . . But really, didn't Jack really show Ennis that it wouldn't be a sin to become a sinner with him?? (if that makes any sense at all) ;)
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I agree with all the above. This is one of my favorite scenes in this classic film. As was mentioned before relaxed a little by the whiskey Ennis is open about his attraction to Jack with his comment about oppotunity.Jack sure picked up on it right away evidenced by the Hmmmmmm. and hands Ennis more whiskey. The way Ennis looks away then back at Jack is just too SWEET.
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I agree with all the above. This is one of my favorite scenes in this classic film. As was mentioned before relaxed a little by the whiskey Ennis is open about his attraction to Jack with his comment about oppotunity.Jack sure picked up on it right away evidenced by the Hmmmmmm. and hands Ennis more whiskey. The way Ennis looks away then back at Jack is just too SWEET.
Oh boy -- gotta go watch that again. I don't think I saw that close enough. Probably concentrating on Jack's Mmmmm and smile, once I picked up on that. What a lovely scene!
kathy
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I agree with all the above. This is one of my favorite scenes in this classic film. As was mentioned before relaxed a little by the whiskey Ennis is open about his attraction to Jack with his comment about oppotunity.Jack sure picked up on it right away evidenced by the Hmmmmmm. and hands Ennis more whiskey. The way Ennis looks away then back at Jack is just too SWEET.
LOL i do remember that part!
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I read that some think that Jack got Ennis drunk on purpose as part of his seduction of Ennis, I think this could be a possibility. , since Jack does'nt seem to wasted himself. After all by this time Ennis should be thinkin about going back to the sheep right? Instead he ends up totally wasted, unable to stand let alone ride back up into the mountains ona horse!.OR... maybe Ennis had no intention of leaving in the first place. It's the way he looked at Jack with the opportunity comment that told Jack that Ennis was interestd , willing and as we saw very able. Objective Reached.in any case.
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I think they were both having a good time with the whiskey. Ennis was especially having a good time because he opened up to Jack and obviously had become quite comfortable around him.
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I think they were both having a good time with the whiskey. Ennis was especially having a good time because he opened up to Jack and obviously had become quite comfortable around him.
Your having said that about Ennis being comfortable and having a good time, reminds me also of his beating time with the stick when Jack was singing -- another loosened-up Ennis kind of thing, from a generally held-in person. And probably he wasn't used to getting all that wasted (though he did like his beer), and so yes, he was having fun...and continued to. OT, but I loved when Ennis was crawling on all fours, couldn't get up to go up to the sheep, and giving Jack a nice view there...
As to Jack not being all that drunk just before he went into the tent, is kind of a mystery. Maybe he could hold his liquor better?
kathy
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I think they were both having a good time with the whiskey. Ennis was especially having a good time because he opened up to Jack and obviously had become quite comfortable around him.
Your having said that about Ennis being comfortable and having a good time, reminds me also of his beating time with the stick when Jack was singing -- another loosened-up Ennis kind of thing, from a generally held-in person. And probably he wasn't used to getting all that wasted (though he did like his beer), and so yes, he was having fun...and continued to. OT, but I loved when Ennis was crawling on all fours, couldn't get up to go up to the sheep, and giving Jack a nice view there...
As to Jack not being all that drunk just before he went into the tent, is kind of a mystery. Maybe he could hold his liquor better?
kathy
Well, I can remember several scenes where Jack is pouring Ennis whiskey, or handing him the bottle. Jack was getting Ennis liqoured up.
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I think they were both having a good time with the whiskey. Ennis was especially having a good time because he opened up to Jack and obviously had become quite comfortable around him.
Your having said that about Ennis being comfortable and having a good time, reminds me also of his beating time with the stick when Jack was singing -- another loosened-up Ennis kind of thing, from a generally held-in person. And probably he wasn't used to getting all that wasted (though he did like his beer), and so yes, he was having fun...and continued to. OT, but I loved when Ennis was crawling on all fours, couldn't get up to go up to the sheep, and giving Jack a nice view there...
As to Jack not being all that drunk just before he went into the tent, is kind of a mystery. Maybe he could hold his liquor better?
kathy
Well, I can remember several scenes where Jack is pouring Ennis whiskey, or handing him the bottle. Jack was getting Ennis liquored up.
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I think they were both having a good time with the whiskey. Ennis was especially having a good time because he opened up to Jack and obviously had become quite comfortable around him.
Your having said that about Ennis being comfortable and having a good time, reminds me also of his beating time with the stick when Jack was singing -- another loosened-up Ennis kind of thing, from a generally held-in person. And probably he wasn't used to getting all that wasted (though he did like his beer), and so yes, he was having fun...and continued to. OT, but I loved when Ennis was crawling on all fours, couldn't get up to go up to the sheep, and giving Jack a nice view there...
As to Jack not being all that drunk just before he went into the tent, is kind of a mystery. Maybe he could hold his liquor better?
kathy
Oh I love that bit, when Ennis is tapping along to Jack's singing.....shame we didnt get to hear Ennis sing though, cos he does sing in the story.
But yes, its so sweet, all the enjoyment they had sitting together, singing and drinking, and flirting..... ;)
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Might just be that Jack's more experienced in all sorts of ways, including drinking, and has more tolerance for alcohol than Ennis does. Ennis has lived with his family/siblins till recently and maybe hasn't had much chance to drink a lot at a time?
On the mountain there are no reins on him in this, as in other, ways.
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This is only job I know of where your boss actually supplies yuo booze......wish mine would, either that or Jack has a permanent stash hidden somewhere. Maybe he has a secret deal with the guy who brings the supplies, since he is always the one who pulls out the whiskey.!
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Yes and the endless cigarettes too. What was that awful song about " Cigareets and whiskey and wild, wild women"? Evidently Aguirre didn't supply the latter.
So cirrhosis and ling-cancer were OK as job-related benefits.
Aguirre seems to have had an odd concept of supplies - plenty of booze but no basic groceries???
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Can you see it ? Laptop, notepad, Jim Beam. ready for a hard days work. Smile.....
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Might just be that Jack's more experienced in all sorts of ways, including drinking, and has more tolerance for alcohol than Ennis does. Ennis has lived with his family/siblins till recently and maybe hasn't had much chance to drink a lot at a time?
On the mountain there are no reins on him in this, as in other, ways.
Both were from poor families, but I guess Ennis lived in more abject poverty, so there was no money for whiskey. Jack's dad probably kept a bottle around somewhere, and Jack stole a taste now and then.
And Jack did the rodeo thing more, which involved spending a portion of your winnings for alcohol afterward. Or if you're lucky, someone buying you a drink.
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Jack's father had been a bull-rider too, so he'd have been in a drinking environment.And as I don't like him and I don't like people who drink ( I mean seriously), I've decided he was an ugly drunk - sheer prejudice, this. On the rodeo circuit Jack would drink with the others - as you say, Edgar, part of the culture - and because he's a sociable character.
I've decided that I like Jack because he is a sinner - he drinks and smokes, breaks the rules, swears, lies and is generally the sort of person it would be good to be. Ennis is not a natural sinner - OK he smokes and drinks but often because Jack offers him booze, but he doesn't swear, wants to do what Aguirre wants, is fixated on getting back to the sheep most of the time, keeps his promises and is a general nause. I would not want ot be stuck on a desert isalnd with anyone who at nineteen hasn't already been a sinner.
So there.
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Yeah but he can cook, shoot,ride really well among other things. Besides He does'nt always do what Ag says. Remember in one of the first scenes he has a blazing fire going so Jack can see him. Also to keep warm and cook breakfast for Jack right? He 'sthe kind of man I'd want around in a tough spot.
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They can have a fire in the main camp - it's just the illegal one up on the mountain where the Forest Service wouldn't allow them to stay overnight in which the herder can't have a fire. I always think that Aguirre, in designating Jack the herder, wants to see him uncomfortable - he evidently resents the sheep lost the year before.
I can cook, I'm violently allergic to horses and don't need a man to shoot my food! I'd say the wrong thing and he'd probably strangle me. Jack can't cook worth a damn (good, he'd appreciate my cooking), is a kluts, always dropping things (endearing), can't shoot ( neither can I), knows what he wants sexually ( no comment). He is also gay but four out of five ain't bad.
Anyone who can get Ennis to flirt is a world-class psychologist, IMO.
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Yeah but he can cook, shoot,ride really well among other things. Besides He does'nt always do what Ag says. Remember in one of the first scenes he has a blazing fire going so Jack can see him. Also to keep warm and cook breakfast for Jack right? He 'sthe kind of man I'd want around in a tough spot.
Personally, I think the night fire was just a plot device...how else would Jack have seen where Ennis was on that dark mountain? We get to see Jack looking up and thinking of Ennis. It was a beautiful shot. Ennis would not have had a fire, especially one that big, for fear of being caught.
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I've decided that I like Jack because he is a sinner - he drinks and smokes, breaks the rules, swears, lies and is generally the sort of person it would be good to be. Ennis is not a natural sinner - OK he smokes and drinks but often because Jack offers him booze, but he doesn't swear, wants to do what Aguirre wants, is fixated on getting back to the sheep most of the time, keeps his promises and is a general nause. I would not want ot be stuck on a desert isalnd with anyone who at nineteen hasn't already been a sinner.
So there.
Yes he does - when he arrives back in camp after the incident with the bear, the first thing he says as he gets off his horse is "f*ck it"
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I agree with all the above. This is one of my favorite scenes in this classic film. As was mentioned before relaxed a little by the whiskey Ennis is open about his attraction to Jack with his comment about oppotunity.Jack sure picked up on it right away evidenced by the Hmmmmmm. and hands Ennis more whiskey. The way Ennis looks away then back at Jack is just too SWEET.
Jack hands him the bottle of whiskey, as if to say "I'll give you an opportunity, buddy"
Indeed, Ennis takes it (the bottle/opportunity to come?), and even says "thank you"
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Yes, this scene is all subtext and implication.
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Jack got Ennis to flirt,did'nt he? Perhaps we should call Dr. Jack F---ckin Twist!
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Uh uh, speak for yourself. You may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity.
Was Ennis telling Jack he was a virgin?
I read somewhere that in the intermediate script draft revised by J. Schamus Ennis's line actually was: You may be a sinner, but Alma's not yet given me the opportunity... (or something very similar to that).
That would or could merely mean that he hasn't had sex with Alma. For him just to say (in the version we know) that he hasn't yet had the opportunity--period--I think implies that he hasn't had sex--period.
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Uh uh, speak for yourself. You may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity.
Was Ennis telling Jack he was a virgin?
I read somewhere that in the intermediate script draft revised by J. Schamus Ennis's line actually was: You may be a sinner, but Alma's not yet given me the opportunity... (or something very similar to that).
That would or could merely mean that he hasn't had sex with Alma. For him just to say (in the version we know) that he hasn't yet had the opportunity--period--I think implies that he hasn't had sex--period.
Very interesting. I think the final version is much more effective -- and deliciously ambuguous, no?
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Absolutely. It increases that ever-present ambiguity.
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Absolutely. It increases that ever-present ambiguity.
It is double-edged. And it hangs over them like a sword of Damocles...
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Uh uh, speak for yourself. You may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity.
Was Ennis telling Jack he was a virgin?
I read somewhere that in the intermediate script draft revised by J. Schamus Ennis's line actually was: You may be a sinner, but Alma's not yet given me the opportunity... (or something very similar to that).
That would or could merely mean that he hasn't had sex with Alma. For him just to say (in the version we know) that he hasn't yet had the opportunity--period--I think implies that he hasn't had sex--period.
That's very interesting Frances. I think if they'd used that original line there would have been no room for discussion about whether Ennis was flirting with Jack. Much better as it is, I reckon.
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Th implications of that ? hypothetical line would have changed the whole meaning of the scene, as it implies what Ennis hasn't had the chance of is hetero sex with Alma, whom he sees as his only possibility; it could also be read as his implying that Jack is already a "sinner" in having had hetero sex ( or indeed snorted coke, played in a boy band, etc) All Jack's mentioned is the possibility of going to hell, which can be achieved in numerous ways.
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It obviously implies that Ennis feels that Jack has experienced alot more "worldly" situations (as in a spiritual context) than he has . This may inclue sex.partying, drinkin......etc After Jack's comment about "fellas like me and you marching off to hell), He is speaking in terms of his mom's religious beliefs.But when Ennis says what he does about "opportunity" He is letting Jack know that he has'nt had as much of a chance to "sin as he has,but from the look in his eyes , he'd be willing to make up that lost time with Jack. this is MO.
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I agree; he's been drinking and is feeling a bit reckless and wants to give the impression that he's "up for it" even if he hasn't had the opportunities Jack has. He certainly implies that the chance to be a sinner isn't something he would avoid.
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i agree
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I agree; he's been drinking and is feeling a bit reckless and wants to give the impression that he's "up for it" even if he hasn't had the opportunities Jack has. He certainly implies that the chance to be a sinner isn't something he would avoid.
Quite so Welshwitch. He certainly does not look like a shrinking violet as he says those words. There is that little smile pushing them out.
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I agree; he's been drinking and is feeling a bit reckless and wants to give the impression that he's "up for it" even if he hasn't had the opportunities Jack has. He certainly implies that the chance to be a sinner isn't something he would avoid.
Quite so Welshwitch. He certainly does not look like a shrinking violet as he says those words. There is that little smile pushing them out.
OOOH.... That's right he does that smile... also too, I notice he is looking right as Jack, trying to catch his eye, so to speak... Then he looks down.....
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I agree; he's been drinking and is feeling a bit reckless and wants to give the impression that he's "up for it" even if he hasn't had the opportunities Jack has. He certainly implies that the chance to be a sinner isn't something he would avoid.
Quite so Welshwitch. He certainly does not look like a shrinking violet as he says those words. There is that little smile pushing them out.
OOOH.... That's right he does that smile... also too, I notice he is looking right as Jack, trying to catch his eye, so to speak... Then he looks down.....
Ennis the innocent. perhaps we need to re-assess him. ^-^
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He may be inexperienced - doesn't mean he's an innocent. He's lived on ranches and presumably among ranch-hands since he was ? fifteen.
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Right you are. He may not be a sinner but he's defintly under suspision!!
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And "I haven't yet had the opportunity" suggests he's only waiting for it to arise. No, appear. No, present itself. No, come up. S**t!
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i think that was flirty and very umm ennis
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And "I haven't yet had the opportunity" suggests he's only waiting for it to arise. No, appear. No, present itself. No, come up. S**t!
LMAO :8
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i think that was flirty and very umm ennis
Anyone capable of getting Mr. stoic DelMar to flirt like he was...deserves everything he got in that tent!!!
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i think that was flirty and very umm ennis
Anyone capable of getting Mr. stoic DelMar to flirt like he was...deserves everything he got in that tent!!!
:8 :8 :8 :8 :8 and Jack got what he wanted! ;)
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While there are many ways to get to hell, I do think the exchange between the two is 100% about sex.
Swearing? Drinking? Gambling? They did this kind of thing without batting an eye.
Lying? Disrespecting parents? Missing church? That's kid stuff to worry about.
Murder? Gluttony? Jealousy? Thievery? Drugs? Not these guys.
Nahh, "Sin" for an averagle 19 year old male in 1963 was S E X. And I think that's exactly what he was talking about.
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While there are many ways to get to hell, I do think the exchange between the two is 100% about sex.
Swearing? Drinking? Gambling? They did this kind of thing without batting an eye.
Lying? Disrespecting parents? Missing church? That's kid stuff to worry about.
Murder? Gluttony? Jealousy? Thievery? Drugs? Not these guys.
Nahh, "Sin" for an averagle 19 year old male in 1963 was S E X. And I think that's exactly what he was talking about.
Excellent observation dalemidex. You are right, back in the 60's about the only sin we could think of was sex. There weren't many other options then.
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While there are many ways to get to hell, I do think the exchange between the two is 100% about sex.
Swearing? Drinking? Gambling? They did this kind of thing without batting an eye.
Lying? Disrespecting parents? Missing church? That's kid stuff to worry about.
Murder? Gluttony? Jealousy? Thievery? Drugs? Not these guys.
Nahh, "Sin" for an averagle 19 year old male in 1963 was S E X. And I think that's exactly what he was talking about.
Excellent observation dalemidex. You are right, back in the 60's about the only sin we could think of was sex. There weren't many other options then.
Especially in the United States, which is more conservative about sex than, say, Europe.
Especially in rural[/] America.
Sex in conservative circles was taboo even to talk about back then... Many parents would never have dreamed of talking about sex with their children...
I can remember growing up in a rural area in the 60's and a local radio station wouldn't play a certain song because it used the word "sexy."
So "sin" was a euphemistic way to discuss sex.
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That was a totally fascinating post. Things in the UK must have been different even then - I was in London in the sixties as a student and no-one I knew was talking about sex - they were all getting into it. Same with drugs - I knew they were around and knew people who used them. Oddly the one thing people didn't do was drink much - partly because of having to get around on public transport, and because public drunkennness was much more stigmatised then than now. Watching BBM I was surprised by the assunption that they would drink constantly, and spirits at that, and would smoke, specially as much they did.
So their idea of what constitutes sin was related to sex because other things were't an issue for them, either because they didn't see them as wrong or because they didn't have access to/know about them. Makes sense and shows what a difference growing up in one place as opposed to another can make. I don't think it was possible to be "rural" in the Jack and Ennis was in 60s England - not so sure about the three Celtic countries, but I remeber being surprised by aspects of the same thing when we were in some southern and western states even in the 80s and 90s.
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While there are many ways to get to hell, I do think the exchange between the two is 100% about sex.
Swearing? Drinking? Gambling? They did this kind of thing without batting an eye.
Lying? Disrespecting parents? Missing church? That's kid stuff to worry about.
Murder? Gluttony? Jealousy? Thievery? Drugs? Not these guys.
Nahh, "Sin" for an averagle 19 year old male in 1963 was S E X. And I think that's exactly what he was talking about.
Excellent observation dalemidex. You are right, back in the 60's about the only sin we could think of was sex. There weren't many other options then.
Especially in the United States, which is more conservative about sex than, say, Europe.
Especially in rural[/] America.
Sex in conservative circles was taboo even to talk about back then... Many parents would never have dreamed of talking about sex with their children...
I can remember growing up in a rural area in the 60's and a local radio station wouldn't play a certain song because it used the word "sexy."
So "sin" was a euphemistic way to discuss sex.
Very cool discussion indeed -- I am convinced they were both talking about sex, and they both knew it. I grew up in almost the same era, though in the city, and though we "did" sex, we didn't talk about it very openly. But I grew up pretty loose; can't use me as an example. (And also, the social mores made an abrupt change in, say, 1966, compared to 1963. 1963 was still the Kennedy years; 1966 was the beginning of psychedelic hippie and radical-riot years.) As for Ennis and Jack, the other "sins" didn't really apply to them, as dalemidex pointed out.
In any event, I adore this flirty Ennis so much, so that's what I want to think -- that it was a direct come-on to Jack: "Give me an oportunity to sin." I'm glad they decided not to put the Alma line in.
kathy
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What Alma line? from the SS??? Refresh my memory please???
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What Alma line? from the SS??? Refresh my memory please???
See above, Reply #153, about a draft of screenplay.
kathy
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AHHH, TYVM! As TPE stated the delicious ambiguity is much better!!!
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Quoting from my earlier post...
"Sex in conservative circles was taboo even to talk about back then..."
I guess I should have said that sex was more taboo to talk about than to perform. It was not long ago in America that a movie could show many killings and get a PG. It could show people having sex (as long as there was no frontal nudity, or maybe a breast or two, and some other limitations) and get a PG.
However, a single use of the word "f*ck" would get it an R.
(These rules are no longer in effect, especially since PG-13 came in between the two ratings.)
And since Ennis is so shy, his use of a transparent code to talk about his (lack of) sexual experience--and show interest in Jack's sexual experience--by saying "You may be a sinner..." was a very big step.
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Quoting from my earlier post...
"Sex in conservative circles was taboo even to talk about back then..."
I guess I should have said that sex was more taboo to talk about than to perform. It was not long ago in America that a movie could show many killings and get a PG. It could show people having sex (as long as there was no frontal nudity, or maybe a breast or two, and some other limitations) and get a PG.
However, a single use of the word "f*ck" would get it an R.
(These rules are no longer in effect, especially since PG-13 came in between the two ratings.)
And since Ennis is so shy, his use of a transparent code to talk about his (lack of) sexual experience--and show interest in Jack's sexual experience--by saying "You may be a sinner..." was a very big step.
Perhaps he wanted Jack to admit to and elaborate on his own sexual expereinces? It is human nature (frailty?) that we typically show interest in the sex lives of those who attract us. (Is this Gore Vidal I am paraphrasing indirectly here?)
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I'm not paraphrasing, enles it's me, but it's true that one often talks about sex with someone one might consider becoming sexually involved with. That's what this conversation is all about.
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Then I do think this was as close Ennis would have dared to go to a discussion with Jack about sexual experiences...
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Then I do think this was as close Ennis would have dared to go to a discussion with Jack about sexual experiences...
Yes. And the key word is "dared." He's really taking a chance here.
Interestingly, it is easier for Ennis to talk about his parents' deaths that about sex.
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Well, what are the topics you avoid if you don't want to get into arguments? Politics? Money? Religion? Sex and death are different taboos, I think, and there's no problem in telling someone your parents were killed in an accident. In the ss Jack tells Ennis all about his father's abusive treatment, which today we'd consider a difficult topic at the very least, but it's not controversial. And there's no problem joking about something that doesn't openly refer to sex - you can always say you meant something else if it looks as if it's going to cause trouble. Suggestiveness is a constant, in literature as in life.
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The eyes are the window to the soul. In the end as in alot of scenes in this movie, the eyes say everything words are not always needed. if Ennis had'nt said a word in this scene , his eyes say it all. I feel this leaves no doubt that Ennis finds Jack sexually attractive in this scene.
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I think it is always difficult in the beginning to talk frankly about sex with a person who is the object of your very own desire. :)
A related difficulty was explained to me by a straight friend some time ago: many straight men today have no problem with homosexuality -- until they realize that they are the object of affection.
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The eyes are the window to the soul. In the end as in alot of scenes in this movie, the eyes say everything words are not always needed. if Ennis had'nt said a word in this scene , his eyes say it all. I feel this leaves no doubt that Ennis finds Jack sexually attractive in this scene.
Excellent observation and so true aintfoolin!
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The eyes are the window to the soul. In the end as in alot of scenes in this movie, the eyes say everything words are not always needed. if Ennis had'nt said a word in this scene , his eyes say it all. I feel this leaves no doubt that Ennis finds Jack sexually attractive in this scene.
In the first scene, there is a definite sizing up going on. Ennis is looking to see who the competition is for the job, and Jack is sizing Ennis up to see if he is a probable threat. He has, as is learned later in the movie worked for Joe before. The suggestive posture may well have been to suggest his Alpha stature. However, the slow sweeping gaze by Ennis pretty much shows he's picked up Jack's raw sex appeal. And what a sight that is!
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Ok. I have read all the posts in this thread and some of them several times. It appears to me that most of you believe that when Ennis tells Jack he hasn't yet had the opportunity to be a sinner he is making a pass a Jack, or at the very least letting Jack know he would be interested.
I couldn't disagree more. If Ennis was interested in having sex with Jack, then why did he jump up ready to fight Jack on the first night in the tent? It was very obvious that Ennis was surprised to find his hand where it was and he did not like it. Even if Ennis wanted to have sex with Jack but did not want to be in the passive position he would have told Jack so and probably would have told him to drop his drawers.
No, Ennis was shocked and angered to find them in a sexual situation and jumped to his knees to fight Jack. But he couldn't hit his best, and only, male friend. And Jack calmed him down. Then Jack, once he knows Ennis will not hit him, takes off his coat and unbuckles his pants. Ennis, pretty well liquored up, says, ok you little faggot, you want it, I'll give it to you, and attacks Jack in a very rough, if not violent way. Ennis' sexual urge was just too great to resist the offer. The next morning he was ashamed of what he had done, and maybe a little ashamed of the way he had done it to his best friend.
So no, in my opinion all Ennis was doing when he said he wasn't a sinner was admitting to his best friend that he was a virgin. And when he looked down and away after saying it, it was out of some slight embarrassment. He was, after all, a nineteen year old male.
This scene is yet another in a series of scenes to show a growing bonding between the two boys. They talk about each others religious upbringing with Jack being a Pentecostal and Ennis being a Methodist and Ennis admits something no nineteen year old boy readily admits to another nineteen year old boy, that he is a virgin. A very deep bonding took place at that moment. Ennis showed he trusted Jack enough not to make fun of him for being a virgin. He wasn't suggesting to Jack he wanted to get it on with him.
And that is my opinion.
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Good points, Patriot I agree that this was another bonding moment for the boys. But IMO, Jack perceived this as a pass. How else would you explain Jack's 'hmmmm" and little smile?
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Good points, Patriot I agree that this was another bonding moment for the boys. But IMO, Jack perceived this as a pass. How else would you explain Jack's 'hmmmm" and little smile?
Good point Cherry. ;) It was an opening for Jack, which he took advantage of later that night.
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Good points, Patriot I agree that this was another bonding moment for the boys. But IMO, Jack perceived this as a pass. How else would you explain Jack's 'hmmmm" and little smile?
Cherrycake, great point, what he percieved then as a pass to act on later. Terrific analysis.
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Good points, Patriot I agree that this was another bonding moment for the boys. But IMO, Jack perceived this as a pass. How else would you explain Jack's 'hmmmm" and little smile?
So as not to be judgemental. These were two 19 year old boys remember and the story tells us they did not judge the others opinions and beliefs.
Of course, Jack being experienced may have also took it as an opening also, but ennis didn't mean it as a come on.
Besides, if you reread my post you will see I was talking about Ennis and not Jack. :)
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I am totaly fascinated by your post, Patriot !, because I'd never seen FNIT as coming, on Ennis's side, from that sort of motivation, but of course it's completely plausible.In a sense if he sees Jack as already a sinner of sorts, then it doesn't much matter what he does to him, hence the violence, and of course he's doing the male thing, which means he's not "queer".
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Ok. I have read all the posts in this thread and some of them several times. It appears to me that most of you believe that when Ennis tells Jack he hasn't yet had the opportunity to be a sinner he is making a pass a Jack, or at the very least letting Jack know he would be interested.
I couldn't disagree more. If Ennis was interested in having sex with Jack, then why did he jump up ready to fight Jack on the first night in the tent? It was very obvious that Ennis was surprised to find his hand where it was and he did not like it. Even if Ennis wanted to have sex with Jack but did not want to be in the passive position he would have told Jack so and probably would have told him to drop his drawers.
No, Ennis was shocked and angered to find them in a sexual situation and jumped to his knees to fight Jack. But he couldn't hit his best, and only, male friend. And Jack calmed him down. Then Jack, once he knows Ennis will not hit him, takes off his coat and unbuckles his pants. Ennis, pretty well liquored up, says, ok you little faggot, you want it, I'll give it to you, and attacks Jack in a very rough, if not violent way. Ennis' sexual urge was just too great to resist the offer. The next morning he was ashamed of what he had done, and maybe a little ashamed of the way he had done it to his best friend.
So no, in my opinion all Ennis was doing when he said he wasn't a sinner was admitting to his best friend that he was a virgin. And when he looked down and away after saying it, it was out of some slight embarrassment. He was, after all, a nineteen year old male.
This scene is yet another in a series of scenes to show a growing bonding between the two boys. They talk about each others religious upbringing with Jack being a Pentecostal and Ennis being a Methodist and Ennis admits something no nineteen year old boy readily admits to another nineteen year old boy, that he is a virgin. A very deep bonding took place at that moment. Ennis showed he trusted Jack enough not to make fun of him for being a virgin. He wasn't suggesting to Jack he wanted to get it on with him.
And that is my opinion.
Maybe a subconcious thing Patriot??? Not so much a come on..."I havent yet had the opportunity", but a Freusian slip?
Ennis didn't fight Jack tooth and nail that night...After all if Ennis wanted to, he could have fended him off. I think Ennis initial reaction was a "straight guy" conditioned response. Which of course only lasted a couple seconds until the rawness of their attraction overcame all of that conditioned nonsense.
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All of the "flirting," if it can even be called that, is done subtly, below the surface, perhaps even unintentionally by both characters. The sort of thing that, if the other wanted to think about it, might be a flirt or a pass, but it could also be denied if challenged.
I think Ennis especially is not necessarily reading all the signs he's being given, nor aware of the signals he may be giving out.
Ennis especially (but probably also Jack) won't even admit to himself that he might be intrigued with or infatutuated with or "have a crush on" his friend. Perhaps Ennis's "warryadoin?" and his aggressive reaction are to convince Jack--or to convince himself--that he's shocked, even if he's secretly pleased. And, I believe, he is partly shocked and partly pleased. He's still figuring out things.
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All of the "flirting," if it can even be called that, is done subtly, below the surface, perhaps even unintentionally by both characters. The sort of thing that, if the other wanted to think about it, might be a flirt or a pass, but it could also be denied if challenged.
I think Ennis especially is not necessarily reading all the signs he's being given, nor aware of the signals he may be giving out.
Ennis especially (but probably also Jack) won't even admit to himself that he might be intrigued with or infatutuated with or "have a crush on" his friend. Perhaps Ennis's "warryadoin?" and his aggressive reaction are to convince Jack--or to convince himself--that he's shocked, even if he's secretly pleased. And, I believe, he is partly shocked and partly pleased. He's still figuring out things.
Certainly, many signs/indications throughout the movie are below the surface. IMO, this scene is no exception. The exact placement of the scene right before thw FNIT is not coincidental. It establishes the necessary sexual tension that is about to be brought out in the open. The innuendos/second meanings help establish this tension in the viewer's mind.
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The word " sinner" is an interesting choice anyway - rather theological for Ennis, who doesn't seem interested in organized religion. But also nice and vague - eniability is very useful - "sinner" can. as it were, cover a multitude of sins.
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The important point is that Jack took it as a pass , and offered Ennis more firewater. The little ( hmmmmmm) from Jack confirms this.
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All of the "flirting," if it can even be called that, is done subtly, below the surface, perhaps even unintentionally by both characters. The sort of thing that, if the other wanted to think about it, might be a flirt or a pass, but it could also be denied if challenged.
I think Ennis especially is not necessarily reading all the signs he's being given, nor aware of the signals he may be giving out.
Ennis especially (but probably also Jack) won't even admit to himself that he might be intrigued with or infatutuated with or "have a crush on" his friend. Perhaps Ennis's "warryadoin?" and his aggressive reaction are to convince Jack--or to convince himself--that he's shocked, even if he's secretly pleased. And, I believe, he is partly shocked and partly pleased. He's still figuring out things.
Good words, Edgar. This is more the way "reality" is after all -- we people are full of subtleties and uncertainties, and motivations aren't all clear, cut-and-dried. Besides Ennis and Jack being young, relatively inexperienced men. This is certainly how I would recall my 19-year-old-ness -- just learning to read signals and give them. Especially in the not-accepted world of same-sex attractions, where Ennis at least apparently doesn't know the score.
kathy
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I agree - it's hard enough trying not to put a foot wrong in a conventional situation, never mind thisone. And they were stuck together till the end of the summer if things went wrong - it's hardly surprising they move realtively slowly, at least at first.
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*o) I agree there rod, Jack will age well!!
But I think Ennis definetly was flirting with Jack, what with the whiskey as a tongue lubricant, teeehee