Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: jerasjr on Feb 25, 2006, 10:42 PM
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When I read postings about the first tent scene happening one night and the second tent scene the next, I don''t agree. They were on BBM tending the sheep during the period that it was possible for the sheep to be there and be able to feed before bad weather made it impossible. Probably at the very least that would have been 3 months or even longer. Ennis got upset when they were going to lose a months pay. Given Ennis' reticence, think that it would have taken him a longer time to make the move back to Jack, even though felt he knew he was going to make that move at some time.
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I got the feeling that Ennis stayed up on the mountain for a few days before returning to the base camp.
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Given Ennis' reticence, think that it would have taken him a longer time to make the move back to Jack, even though felt he knew he was going to make that move at some time.
That is what I thought. Thanks, jerasjr. Posts here suggest that 2nd tent night happened next day after the first tent.
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Given Ennis' reticence, think that it would have taken him a longer time to make the move back to Jack, even though felt he knew he was going to make that move at some time.
That is what I thought. Thanks, jerasjr.
Maybe. I note that the first night is a clear full moon night, while the second tent night is very dark ...
and moreover Ennis wears two different shirts: the Shirt during the second night and the other one in the first night and when he speaks with Jack about the one-shot thing.
Anyway these are not really proofs.
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Thanks, LC, for your interesting contributions to this topic. Like you, I'm very impressed by Jackster's detailed knowledge. I,too, hadn't realized that there was a date on the flyer that came with the returned postcard until Jackster pointed it out yesterday.
Below is a complete timeline I created for Brokeback Mountain some while ago. I'm afraid it's rather long but it does cover the period you're talking about in your recent post. I thought you and Jackster might like to have a look at it. Any comments or suggested corrections most welcome but maybe for that should we create a new topic?
A Timeline for Brokeback Mountain.
In the following timeline, ss=short story and sp=screen play. All quotations are from “Brokeback Mountain:Story to Screenplay”.
1941 K.E. del Mar born
1943 Jack and Ennis born (Sept.-Dec.)
1952. Ennis and K.E. forced to look at Earl's mutilated body by their father
1957 ? Ennis's parents killed
1963:
May 7 Jack and Ennis meet
May 8 Full moon
May 24 Elk and potato dinner
June 7 TSN1. Full moon
June 8 TSN2
June. Ennis and Jack switch routines
June. Ennis and Jack move the sheep further up the mountains
July. Aguirre spying
July. Hailstorm and sheep tangle
August. Snow. Forced to leave Brokeback. *1.
Nov. Ennis marries Alma Beers
1964:
Jan. Alma pregnant
spring: Ennis employed shovelling asphalt
spring: Ennis and Alma see "Surf Party" (1964)
spring: Jack returns to Brokeback
autumn: Alma jr. born
1965:
winter: Jenny born
1966:
July 4. Alma, Ennis and the two children attend Independence Day celebrations.
August. Jack meets Lureen at rodeo
1967:
Jan. ?Bobby born.
Sept 24 Jack and Ennis re-unite in Riverton
Sept 25-? Wyoming campsite
[1967-83:
"Years on years they worked their way through the high meadows and mountain drainages, horse-packing into the Big Horns, Medicine Bows, south end of the Gallatins, Absarokas, Granites, Owl Creeks, the Bridger-Teton Range, the Freezeouts and the Shirleys, Ferisses and the Rattlesnakes, Salt River Range, into the Wind Rivers over and again, the Sierra Madres, Gros Ventres, the Washakies, Laramies, but never returning to Brokeback." ss. p.17]
1971:
Girls on swing scene
Jack driving tractor scene.
1972:
July Ennis receives postcard from Jack ("See you in a couple of weeks") [postmark: July, 1972.]
July/August Blue parka scene. 14 hour drive for Jack.
July/August Ennis leaves for Big Horn mountains. Almost forgets his tackle box.
July/August Jack and Ennis meet up in the Big Horn Mountains. ["Jack comes out of the tent, the intense pleasure of being with Ennis all over his face." sp. p.58]
August/September Jack with Bobby probably driving one of the "new models" Lureen mentions to Jack before he leaves for the Big Horns.
1973:
Alma: "We could still smarten up, head over to the church social" (sp. p.60).An episode from "Kojack" is playing on the TV.
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Ennis: "If you don't want no more of my kids, I'll be happy to leave you alone." (sp. p.60)
1975:
Nov. 6 Alma and Ennis divorce. *2.
Nov. Jack drives up to be with Ennis. Rejected.
Nov. Jack goes to Mexico.
Dec. Jack meets up with Ennis? Jack says "see you next month, then..." (sp. p.63) in the "rejection" scene. *2.
1976
April. Jack receives the “divorce” postcard. Drives up to be with Ennis. Rejected.
April. Jack goes to Mexico.
May. Jack meets up with Ennis? Jack says “see you next month, then…”(sp.p.63) in the “rejection” scene.*2.
1977:
Nov. Thanksgiving weekend. The two Thanksgiving dinners.
1978:
Mountain scene. Jack suggests that Ennis might move to Texas.
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Ennis meets Cassie.
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Jack and Lureen have dinner with the Malones. [Banner behind bar reads "Welcome to the 1978 Benefit Dinner, The Childress County Children's Home"]
1979:
Bar scene where Cassie asks Alma Jr. "...your daddy ever gonna see fit to settle down again?" (sp. p.77) [sp. notes that Alma is 15]
1983:
May. Hail Strew River Drainage. Final time together:
(a) Jack: "tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it." (sp. p.80)
(b) Asleep in tent, Ennis curled around Jack.
(c) The quarrel. Jack: "come here...it's alright, it's all right...damn you Ennis". (sp. p.83)
(d) Flashback to Brokeback, 1963. The Dozy Embrace.
(e) Jack watches Ennis's truck as it drives away.
July. ? Final scene with Cassie
August/Sept. ? Jack dies.*3.
October/early Nov. Ennis phone call to Lureen [Ennis's postcard to Jack had proposed they meet at Pine Creek on Nov 7] *4.
Nov. ?Ennis visits the Twists
1984
spring: Alma Jr. visits Ennis. [Alma is 19]
June 5 Alma presumably marries Kurt.
NOTES:
*1 I prefer these dates with the first full moon we see occurring in May and TSN1 taking place at the next full moon in June. I chose the May date in part because, when Jack and Ennis are first going up the mountain, the foliage has the very light green look of spring (May) rather than the somewhat darker green of full summer (June). It also gives Jack and Ennis a longer time together after TSN2 before they are forced to leave Brokeback. But making everything a month - or full moon - later also works.
*2 One possibility is that what the judge says here is an “interlocutory” decree and not a final decree. The final decree would then have been granted some months later – say, in March or April of the following year. If Ennis sent Jack that postcard shortly after receiving the final decree, then Jack would have probably driven up in April and his reference to their meeting next month would point to May.
Another possibility is that the judge’s pronouncement is final but that Ennis spends some time getting things sorted out before sending Jack that postcard. This again could result in Jack’s driving up in April.
In general, a number of Brokies feel that it is much more likely that the meeting referred to would take place in the spring and not in wintery December. There is some textual support for this. In one of the earlier scripts for Brokeback Mountain, Jack’s line reads: “I’ll see you first week in June, then.”
*3 The exact time of Jack's death is unknown. Jack has presumably gone to Lightning Flat for a few days before heading back to Texas after his May meeting with Ennis which is when he must have said to his father that he would be returning with "another fella" (sp. p.90). OMT then goes on to say "...but like most of Jack's ideas it never come to pass". (sp. p.90). Therefore, I think a fair amount of time must have passed between Jack's offer and his death. If Jack had died shortly after his return to Texas, surely OMT would have put it differently.
*4. I'm assuming here that Ennis's postcard - the one stamped "deceased" - is returned to Ennis before Nov. 7.
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Whoee - Yeah!!
This is remarkable CH!
Gonna' take me all weekend to go through this and study your hard work and dedication.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
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I join in Jackster's applause. :clap: O0 ^f^
But would you mind checking the list? I think there is a bit of a mix up.
The divorce scene is 1975. What's the deal with 1976?
The final confrontation is in 1981, according to the screenplay...but I will double check and get back to you.
(:* O0 ^f^
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Here is an excellent timeline created by enniscake at LJ - I am presenting it in a table instead of a slide show (http://www.fanpop.com/spots/brokeback-mountain/images/8908108/title/brokeback-mountain-timeline)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908108-100-100.jpg&hash=64a5882e8968ef4174b216e30ef262c1cc77d9c2)start
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908109-100-100.jpg&hash=f8be029155bb41d7511d1a5e083211d61da5c7f3)Witnessing Rich and Earl
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908110-100-100.jpg&hash=ab046954ab15ac597a45430701b4932247cde669)Meeting in Signal Wyoming
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908111-100-100.jpg&hash=a20a1fafd739dfd56309c04164883610fd4f2c1b)Herding on Brokeback Mountain
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908112-100-100.jpg&hash=a7704fb58e421f6a473d026f81ca555dcc74d9f2)Working together
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908119-100-100.jpg&hash=0f964f6496ea519dbb6e4aa61367da2039f8f343)No more beans
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908120-100-100.jpg&hash=334a8eb5b1158b0bb41515418506cffc1790fafd)Came upon a bear
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908121-100-100.jpg&hash=b84eef542875e9e62322f2683eaead6e31bfcb10)Hee haw!
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908122-100-100.jpg&hash=1bb33577160b8818dc18602ef653c661846ef641)Don't mind switching
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908123-100-100.jpg&hash=84712d6ecd189499d7a576028db1985c4d3de86b)Spurring 'im on
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908141-100-100.jpg&hash=25cc0df0b62e15bf8dc9bd4030f77b1a831c3a50)Watch out ...
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908142-100-100.jpg&hash=2ef98c31a65aa7ab5e55b07065486868212b2c4a)Get in here Ennis!
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908143-100-100.jpg&hash=1e883cd5d1e2ec56851e92520add702c1cc27720)I ain't queer
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908144-100-100.jpg&hash=10c185971d3a1d996c742e8b4d250d94b32130ec)Nobody's business but ours
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(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908159-100-100.jpg&hash=8c5a40eae138fe7e3474f787a14f7a92d705d3b8)sleeping on your feet cowboy
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908160-100-100.jpg&hash=d6f818e99f7652f0aa5cf86240c95b7bc47237b5)Scarring off the sheep
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908161-100-100.jpg&hash=d9f1dbbf3fe8204df80be3392230ba2d11a7fa13)Brrrrrr
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908162-100-100.jpg&hash=a045e73efeba3ff7a42194ce8e1f8ed7b9a705ed)Come on down
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908163-100-100.jpg&hash=6f705d6d0fd353da6bfcf516c31c018dd4aeb5a2)Time to go cowboy
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908167-100-100.jpg&hash=2658b9767b5753d5c4f7b35b5beca3e9c22302f6)You coming back next year?
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908168-100-100.jpg&hash=5e055bb4f7c86e4f277f63c571be4addb36d3c42)Kiss the bride
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908169-100-100.jpg&hash=d06a122c91984ac4383c82211e30be40c27f009e)Feel the baby
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908170-100-100.jpg&hash=475140175a0a6ab4bdcfc0e6d687dd6fe3dc431d)Have you seen Ennis Del Mar?
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908171-100-100.jpg&hash=765e29b7886b07adbd22a14f3449e8dc28f32e0f)What you waitin' for cowboy, a mating call?
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908177-100-100.jpg&hash=0c03b4a04e41a33dd068e4267fb805ea0cd5299d)I would if I have three hands
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908178-100-100.jpg&hash=4d33f5b84861c7a50d725c4dfe58cf8bca8cdff6)4th of July
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908179-100-100.jpg&hash=386e044a1c6712a1e164663ca1c772f713c6e33f)Rodeo will get 'em
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908180-100-100.jpg&hash=53b63562e19b28b36d019c5e37c81f1a7fcb397c)Reunion
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908181-100-100.jpg&hash=636325adb14f9b389dbf5e9e5556226ba49c34c2)Motel Siesta
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908183-100-100.jpg&hash=a6fba3657cd7b1ca86b7675be55e5f7966eccfe5)Sweet life, just like this, always
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908184-100-100.jpg&hash=381d775acb8f5c8bfc2d4cce39f0428297e1ec8a)Come back here Alma!
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908185-100-100.jpg&hash=34f8d3ef01e2d0ee5e5e1c16a055d16c79ca4b31)Texans don't drink coffee?
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908186-100-100.jpg&hash=5d083a29d9d1c5e5b1bb717dfc81ead01707db96)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908188-100-100.jpg&hash=7ca3af5d60deeacae22d7acdcb2c697dcd58e5bb)Divorced
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908192-100-100.jpg&hash=ec0f58064dd3b0fa3be9b376f2c9f85bb5a9d6ca)See you next month then
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908193-100-100.jpg&hash=41569369e36952f6507032ce4153fbeea1a5f615)Sit down!
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908194-100-100.jpg&hash=b9b06fb42a2a1df1ab064d4a13c1ea4972f81d11)Jack Nasty Twist
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908195-100-100.jpg&hash=1234b1db88f5a8c5ef99338db1867579660f67f1)You ever get the feeling?
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908196-100-100.jpg&hash=7741c41d3e89d42aeac607d186e299ec26435a43)drinking beer after beer
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908198-100-100.jpg&hash=3b379c1b10a1174ad1f36ccc3a81a88aac345f04)do some fishing...
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908199-100-100.jpg&hash=ddb673483b8aea366d34f486264852db14770709)Not the marrying kind
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I can see how the year could be different at the end. I found this other time line at bettermost (http://www.bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=11343.0), which says the book put Jack's death in 1983, while the movie put it earlier.
Timeline in the lives of Jack and Ennis
by - surf501 (Mon Dec 19 2005 20:39:12 )
Here goes after seeing the movie four times (EDIT: Have now seen movie 9 times), and reading the published version of the screenplay, certain year milestones are noted:
1963 - The year they meet, summer. After Brokeback, Ennis marries Alma the same year.
1964 - Ennis and Alma are married, and expecting their first child. The movie at the Drive-in is "Surf Party", from 1964.
1966 - Fourth of July when Ennis beats up the foul mouthed Biker. The announcer in the background clearly says Fourth of July, 1966. Same summer, Jack attempts to pick up Jimbo the Rodeo Clown, then meets Lureen.
1967 - Four years after the summer on Brokeback, Jack and Ennis reunite.
Flashback: 1952 - Ennis' father takes him and his brother to see the murdered body of Earl, the rancher. Ennis says he is 9 years old, which means he must have turned 20 later in the fall of 1963, after the summer on Brokeback, which makes sense since the book says he was "not yet twenty", which seems to imply "not yet twenty, but almost/soon will be".
1969 - The "Where's my Blue Parka?" scene. The screenplay is messed up here about dates. In the space of two pages the year changes from 1971 to 1969 to a scene with a wall calendar that says 1973! I think that 1969 is supposed to be the correct year, but then why would little Bobby need a tutor at age of only 2 or 3? In the movie though we are free to place it in any year we choose in a given late sixties, early 70's range.
1972 - The montage where Jack is letting bobby drive the tractor and Ennis is baling hay out the back of a truck
1973 - Ennis and Alma sit in their apartment on a Saturday night and watch an episode of "Kojack". Alma wants to go to the Church social, but Ennis dosesn't feel like hanging out with "..that fire and brimstone crowd."
1975 - Ennis and Alma divorce. The date is read by the judge. I believe it's in July. The 5th? (Correction: The date of their divorce is November 6th) Jack drives up to see Ennis, hoping this means they will now be able to live together.
1977 - Thanksgiving with Ennis at Alma and Monroe's, and at the Twist Household. You hear the year read by the announcer at the football game on television. The screenplay describes Bobby as being 10, which means he would have had to be two when he needed the tutor.
1978 - Jack and Ennis go to the Mountains again, "Aww go to hell Ennis Del Mar, you want to live your miserable *beep* life, go ahead..." Jack and Lureen meet Randall and LaShawn Malone, at a benefit dinner dance. Ennis meets Cassie.
1979 - Scene with Ennis, Cassie, and Alma Jr. at the bar. The screenplay describes Alma Jr. as 15 yrs,
1981/1983 - Jack and Ennis meet for the last time in 1981 (screenplay) or 1983 (book). In the book, Proulx says they go everywhere but back to Brokeback. In the movie it seems like they always return to Brokeback or we assume so. Cassie confronts Ennis in the Diner.
1982 - In the screenplay, this is the year Jack is killed, and Ennis has the phone coversation with Lureen. Ennis meets Jack's parents.
1984 - Final scenes in movie with Ennis and Alma Jr., the reversed shirts.
"You know it could be like this, just like this, always"
Black Hat White Hat
-
In 1963 JacK was 19 (SS). He dies 39 (1983)
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I join in Jackster's applause. :clap: O0 ^f^
But would you mind checking the list? I think there is a bit of a mix up.
The divorce scene is 1975. What's the deal with 1976?
The final confrontation is in 1981, according to the screenplay...but I will double check and get back to you.
(:* O0 ^f^
Hi LC:
The trouble with relying exclusively on the dates in PSP (Published Screen Play) is that not all of them seem reliable. For example, PSP has Ennis's visit to the Twists taking place in 1982 and the very next scene, when Alma comes to call on her father, occurring two years later in 1984. To most, this seems highly unlikely. Likewise, the girls on the swing scene is dated 1971 but the very next scene, the "piss-ant" scene, is dated 1969.
I'm sorry I caused confusion with my divorce dates. What I was trying to do was to provide alternative timelines for two different versions of the divorce scene. The first would see the divorce we see as "final". Jack, therefore, to see Ennis "next month", would have had to travel in December. I think this scenario is quite possible especially given Jack's later complaint that their meetings are "always in the friggin' cold weather".
However, another Brokie, an American with a legal background, once suggested that what we are seeing in the divorce scene is not the final divorce but an earlier "interlocutory" stage with the divorce to be finalized some months later. If that's the case, then Ennis would have sent that postcard to Jack once the divorce was final and that, presumably, would be around March or April. I'm neither American nor a lawyer so have no way of assessing the likelihood of this being the case. But, in the interests of inclusivity, I thought I should offer it as an alternative.
I expect you and others have noted that I neatly sidestepped the "Bobby the bastard" issue by simply stating:
1967:
Jan. ? Bobby born.
Personally, I find the idea that Lureen was pregnant when she first meets Jack and in desperate need of a husband quite attractive as it does explain certain other things, OLd Man Newsome's attitude towards Jack, for instance. However, does a footnote about this issue really belong in a timeline of Brokeback Mountain? What do you think?
If you or Chameau would like to move this and other discussions of the timeline to another topic, by all means do. However, I'm afraid I don't have the expertise to initiate such a move.
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Here is an excellent timeline created by enniscake at LJ - I am presenting it in a table instead of a slide show (http://www.fanpop.com/spots/brokeback-mountain/images/8908108/title/brokeback-mountain-timeline)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908108-100-100.jpg&hash=64a5882e8968ef4174b216e30ef262c1cc77d9c2)start
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908109-100-100.jpg&hash=f8be029155bb41d7511d1a5e083211d61da5c7f3)Witnessing Rich and Earl
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908110-100-100.jpg&hash=ab046954ab15ac597a45430701b4932247cde669)Meeting in Signal Wyoming
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908111-100-100.jpg&hash=a20a1fafd739dfd56309c04164883610fd4f2c1b)Herding on Brokeback Mountain
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908112-100-100.jpg&hash=a7704fb58e421f6a473d026f81ca555dcc74d9f2)Working together
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908119-100-100.jpg&hash=0f964f6496ea519dbb6e4aa61367da2039f8f343)No more beans
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908120-100-100.jpg&hash=334a8eb5b1158b0bb41515418506cffc1790fafd)Came upon a bear
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908121-100-100.jpg&hash=b84eef542875e9e62322f2683eaead6e31bfcb10)Hee haw!
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908122-100-100.jpg&hash=1bb33577160b8818dc18602ef653c661846ef641)Don't mind switching
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908123-100-100.jpg&hash=84712d6ecd189499d7a576028db1985c4d3de86b)Spurring 'im on
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908141-100-100.jpg&hash=25cc0df0b62e15bf8dc9bd4030f77b1a831c3a50)Watch out ...
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908142-100-100.jpg&hash=2ef98c31a65aa7ab5e55b07065486868212b2c4a)Get in here Ennis!
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908143-100-100.jpg&hash=1e883cd5d1e2ec56851e92520add702c1cc27720)I ain't queer
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908144-100-100.jpg&hash=10c185971d3a1d996c742e8b4d250d94b32130ec)Nobody's business but ours
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908145-100-100.jpg&hash=d556b813e9b71b1fa87f3f5343109bbb7d63057e)Peeping Joe
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908159-100-100.jpg&hash=8c5a40eae138fe7e3474f787a14f7a92d705d3b8)sleeping on your feet cowboy
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908160-100-100.jpg&hash=d6f818e99f7652f0aa5cf86240c95b7bc47237b5)Scarring off the sheep
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908161-100-100.jpg&hash=d9f1dbbf3fe8204df80be3392230ba2d11a7fa13)Brrrrrr
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908162-100-100.jpg&hash=a045e73efeba3ff7a42194ce8e1f8ed7b9a705ed)Come on down
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908163-100-100.jpg&hash=6f705d6d0fd353da6bfcf516c31c018dd4aeb5a2)Time to go cowboy
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908167-100-100.jpg&hash=2658b9767b5753d5c4f7b35b5beca3e9c22302f6)You coming back next year?
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908168-100-100.jpg&hash=5e055bb4f7c86e4f277f63c571be4addb36d3c42)Kiss the bride
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908169-100-100.jpg&hash=d06a122c91984ac4383c82211e30be40c27f009e)Feel the baby
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908170-100-100.jpg&hash=475140175a0a6ab4bdcfc0e6d687dd6fe3dc431d)Have you seen Ennis Del Mar?
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908171-100-100.jpg&hash=765e29b7886b07adbd22a14f3449e8dc28f32e0f)What you waitin' for cowboy, a mating call?
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908177-100-100.jpg&hash=0c03b4a04e41a33dd068e4267fb805ea0cd5299d)I would if I have three hands
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908178-100-100.jpg&hash=4d33f5b84861c7a50d725c4dfe58cf8bca8cdff6)4th of July
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908179-100-100.jpg&hash=386e044a1c6712a1e164663ca1c772f713c6e33f)Rodeo will get 'em
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908180-100-100.jpg&hash=53b63562e19b28b36d019c5e37c81f1a7fcb397c)Reunion
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908181-100-100.jpg&hash=636325adb14f9b389dbf5e9e5556226ba49c34c2)Motel Siesta
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908183-100-100.jpg&hash=a6fba3657cd7b1ca86b7675be55e5f7966eccfe5)Sweet life, just like this, always
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908184-100-100.jpg&hash=381d775acb8f5c8bfc2d4cce39f0428297e1ec8a)Come back here Alma!
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908185-100-100.jpg&hash=34f8d3ef01e2d0ee5e5e1c16a055d16c79ca4b31)Texans don't drink coffee?
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908186-100-100.jpg&hash=5d083a29d9d1c5e5b1bb717dfc81ead01707db96)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908188-100-100.jpg&hash=7ca3af5d60deeacae22d7acdcb2c697dcd58e5bb)Divorced
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908192-100-100.jpg&hash=ec0f58064dd3b0fa3be9b376f2c9f85bb5a9d6ca)See you next month then
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908193-100-100.jpg&hash=41569369e36952f6507032ce4153fbeea1a5f615)Sit down!
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908194-100-100.jpg&hash=b9b06fb42a2a1df1ab064d4a13c1ea4972f81d11)Jack Nasty Twist
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908195-100-100.jpg&hash=1234b1db88f5a8c5ef99338db1867579660f67f1)You ever get the feeling?
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908196-100-100.jpg&hash=7741c41d3e89d42aeac607d186e299ec26435a43)drinking beer after beer
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908198-100-100.jpg&hash=3b379c1b10a1174ad1f36ccc3a81a88aac345f04)do some fishing...
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908199-100-100.jpg&hash=ddb673483b8aea366d34f486264852db14770709)Not the marrying kind
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(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F8900000%2FBrokeback-Mountain-Timeline-brokeback-mountain-8908201-100-100.jpg&hash=d31beee3bf4009fd35ef57a4dfc83b9d19ccc26f)Two shirts
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Thanks for posting this illustrated version of the timeline LC. However, let me offer some corrections to make sure people don't get confused:
1. Alma says "Texans don't drink coffee" on Sept 25, 1967, not in the July of 1972. She says it when Ennis returns to their apartment after spending the night with Jack.
2. The scene identified as "Come back here Alma" takes place in 1971 not 1969. It is so dated in PSP (Published Screen Play) and, when there is no contradictory evidence, I see no point in changing PSP"s dating. 1971 also fits in with Alma Jr. being six in this scene. Alma Jr. was born late in 1964.
3. The two Thanksgiving dinners take place in 1977, not 1976. PSP so dates them and again I see no point in altering that date.
4. "You ever get that feeling..." This scene between Ennis and Jack takes place in in 1978, not 1977. Again, that's where PSP puts it and I see no point in moving it back a year.
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Hi LC:
The trouble with relying exclusively on the dates in PSB is that not all of them seem reliable. For example, PSB has Ennis's visit to the Twists taking place in 1982 and the very next scene, when Alma comes to call on her father, occurring two years later in 1984. To most, this seems highly unlikely.
Hey, CH. I never thought much about the dates and times before. I was more focused on the plot and characters. Thank you for bringing these items to mind. I don't know if Ang Lee and company put much thought into the dates and continuity, and if they did, whether any of the discrepancies between the two canonical sources are accidental or intentional. It would be interesting to hear from someone in the know, perhaps those who worked on the script.
I'm sorry I caused confusion with my divorce dates. What I was trying to do was to provide alternative timelines for two different versions of the divorce scene. The first would see the divorce we see as "final". Jack, therefore, to see Ennis "next month", would have had to travel in December. I think this scenario is quite likely especially given Jack's later complaint that their meetings are "always in the friggin' cold weather".
No worries and no need to apologize. As I said, I was not aware of the discrepancies so I am thankful for your attention to detail. I don't see much impact on the plot or characters of the story, whatever the dates or alternative in the divorce scene. I doubt he drove there for 14 hours in December however, since Wyoming would be snow covered by that time. See Riverton Climate Report (http://www.crh.noaa.gov/Image/riw/Riverton_Climo_TechMemo.pdf).
However, another Brokie, an American with a legal background, once suggested that what we are seeing in the divorce scene is not the final divorce but an earlier "interlocutory" stage with the divorce to be finalized some months later. If that's the case, then Ennis would have sent that postcard to Jack once the divorce was final and that, presumably, would be around March or April. I'm neither American nor a lawyer so have no way of assessing the likelihood of this being the case. But, in the interests of inclusivity, I thought I should offer it as an alternative.
I expect you and others have noted that I neatly sidestepped the "Bobby the bastard" issue by simply stating:
1967:
Jan. ? Bobby born.
Personally, I find the idea that Lureen was pregnant when she first meets Jack and in desperate need of a husband quite attractive as it does explain certain other things, OLd Man Newsome's attitude towards Jack, for instance. However, does a footnote about this issue really belong in a timeline of Brokeback Mountain? What do you think?
I've never heard of the Bobby Bastard theory. This is the first. I've always thought Bobby was Jack's son. By all indications, i.e. the way Jack treats Bobby, the concern he shows regarding his education, the way he showed him how to drive the tractor, the way he referred to Bobby as his son, etc, Jack thought Bobby was his. I would think so too. As for the dates, etc. I will need to study the material and timeline in depth to have an opinion on that. I would be surprised if Annie and Ang Lee would introduce such a spurious element into the story, one which really has no relevance to the love between Ennis and Jack.
If you or Chameau would like to move this and other discussions of the timeline to another topic, by all means do. However, I'm afraid I don't have the expertise to initiate such a move.
No worries. I trust cham to do what is right by us. He will make the necessary changes and whatever is appropriate.
Thank you again for bringing the timeline to the forum. I don't believe I've seen any discussion on it, and it is certainly worthwhile.
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Thanks for posting this illustrated version of the timeline LC. However, let me offer some corrections to make sure people don't get confused:
1. Alma says "Texans don't drink coffee" on Sept 25, 1967, not in the July of 1972. She says it when Ennis returns to their apartment after spending the night with Jack.
2. The scene identified here as "Come back here Alma" takes place in 1971 not 1969. It is so dated in PSP (Published Screen Play) and, when there is no contradictory evidence, I see no point in changing PSP"s dating. 1971 also fits in with Alma Jr. being six in this scene. Alma Jr. was born late in 1964.
3. The two Thanksgiving dinners take place in 1977, not 1976. PSP so dates them and again I see no point in altering that date.
4. "You ever get that feeling..." This scene between Ennis and Jack takes place in in 1978, not 1977. Again, that's where PSP puts it and I see no point in moving it back a year.
The captions are mine, so I take responsibility if any of them are in the wrong place, illustrating a photo from a different scene. "Texans don't drink coffee?" was from the day after the reunion, so you are correct. I think that photo of Alma is from the scene when Ennis for his tackle box. "You forgot somethin'?" would be correct, yes?
The order of the scenes and the dates are from enniscake, and it depends on which source he used. Do you mean PSP as in the screen play found with the short story in the book which also contains the three essays from Annie, Diana, and Larry? I have that book, and I will verify the timeline(s) with it one day.
Thanks for keeping a close eye on it. O0
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I think I figured out the problem. The screen play says Ennis visited Lightening Flat in 1982. But the old man Twist said Jack told 'em "this spring" bringing another fella. The scene of Ennis's visit was clearly not in the winter, so it is likely Ennis was visiting either in the fall of 1981 or spring of 1982. However, if 1982, then old man Twist should have said "last spring" so I am inclined to think the screen play made a mistake. It makes more sense for Jack to have died in the early summer of 1981, and by late August, the post office returned the postcard, Jack had been cremated and half the ashes sent to Lightning Flat. A while later, since the Twists didn't have a telephone, and Ennis had to arrange for the visit by mail, a letter to request a visit, and a reply, by the time he went out to the farm, it was in October of 1981.
If Junior visited Ennis in 1984, it would make sense, too, that after Jack died, he was grieving and for two years Junior didn't get to see him much, or talked much about her own life.
I wonder if there are any other mistakes in the published screen play. :s)
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thanks for the timeline thing. I really appreciate it
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The captions are mine, so I take responsibility if any of them are in the wrong place, illustrating a photo from a different scene. "Texans don't drink coffee?" was from the day after the reunion, so you are correct. I think that photo of Alma is from the scene when Ennis for his tackle box. "You forgot somethin'?" would be correct, yes?
The order of the scenes and the dates are from enniscake, and it depends on which source he used. Do you mean PSP as in the screen play found with the short story in the book which also contains the three essays from Annie, Diana, and Larry? I have that book, and I will verify the timeline(s) with it one day.
Thanks for keeping a close eye on it. O0
Hi LC...Now I've taken a another look at it, yes, I'm sure that screencap comes from the scene with the tackle box where Alma says "you forgettin' something?" (Was that the tackle box, I wonder, which concealed the fatal note?). And you're right - the correct date for this scene is 1972.
As far as texts of story and screenplay go, the only authoratative source is Brokeback Mountain: Story to Screenplay. When referring to or quoting from the short story
or screenplay, this is the one I always use. It is also the one I and others refer to as PSP (Published Screenplay). However, authoratative as the printed script might be, there are problems with the dates attached to certain scenes, so some of PSP's dates have to be treated with due caution.
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Thanks guys, this is more than interesting! :t)
I wouldn't be surprised if the writers left some obscurity/ambiguity in the film/screenplay intentionally.
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Hi LC...Now I've taken a another look at it, yes, I'm sure that screencap comes from the scene with the tackle box where Alma says "you forgettin' something?" (Was that the tackle box, I wonder, which concealed the fatal note?). And you're right - the correct date for this scene is 1972.
As far as texts of story and screenplay go, the only authoratative source is Brokeback Mountain: Story to Screenplay. When referring to or quoting from the short story or screenplay, this is the one I always use. It is also the one I and others refer to as PSP (Published Screenplay). However, authoratative as the printed script might be, there are problems with the dates attached to certain scenes, so some of PSP's dates have to be treated with due caution.
This reminds me of the old days when discussing Star Trek. :P The Canonical version of different stories, etc.
I trust some literature class at some university one day will have a course to study Brokeback Mountain, under English or Americana Literature, or LGBT Literature, and our discussion will be very useful study material for future students.
I have to disagree about the authoritative source bit, though. In my humble opinion, Annie is the authoritative source on the short story, Larry MacMurtry and Diana Okassana are the authorities on the screen play, and Ang Lee is the sole authority on the movie.
It makes any definitive pronouncement difficult because, as we all know, there are a number of deliberate differences between the short story and the screen play and the final released movie. Brokeback Mountain was a evolving work of art, not a code of canons passed down from heaven, although I'd like to think the hand from heaven helped Annie write the story also helped Diana and Larry add flesh to the bony short story, and most of all, inspired Heath in his creation of Ennis, and Ang Lee to pull everything together in the final masterpiece.
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This reminds me of the old days when discussing Star Trek. :P The Canonical version of different stories, etc.
I trust some literature class at some university one day will have a course to study Brokeback Mountain, under English or Americana Literature, or LGBT Literature, and our discussion will be very useful study material for future students.
I have to disagree about the authoritative source bit, though. In my humble opinion, Annie is the authoritative source on the short story, Larry MacMurtry and Diana Okassana are the authorities on the screen play, and Ang Lee is the sole authority on the movie.
It makes any definitive pronouncement difficult because, as we all know, there are a number of deliberate differences between the short story and the screen play and the final released movie. Brokeback Mountain was a evolving work of art, not a code of canons passed down from heaven, although I'd like to think the hand from heaven helped Annie write the story also helped Diana and Larry add flesh to the bony short story, and most of all, inspired Heath in his creation of Ennis, and Ang Lee to pull everything together in the final masterpiece.
I think you're misunderstanding me, LC. In using the term "authoratative" I was referring to the text or texts, not to authorship. The screenplay text published in Brokeback Mountain:Story to Screenplay is the "authoratative" one, as it is the final one and therefore has greater "authority" than any of the earlier versions. Likewise, the text of the short story in Brokeback Mountain:Story to Screenplay is more "authoratative" than the earlier version published in the New Yorker as it is the final version of the short story and is in the "final" form that Annie Proulx wanted. Fortunately, with Brokeback, there's no confusion over authorship.
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The fact that there are demonstrable confusions with dates in parts of the published screenplay encouraged me and others, like enniscake, to suggest the change of the 1982 dates in the screenplay to 1983. The reasons for this change are threefold:
1. This is the date given for their final meeting in the short story:
In May of 1983 they spent a few cold days at a series of little icebound, no-name high lakes, then worked across into the Hail Strew River drainage.
2. Lureen says that Jack was 39 when he died. We know that Jack was 19 when he first met Ennis in 1963. Therefore the year must be that part of 1983 before Jack turns 40.
3. The screenplay dates Alma Jr.'s meeting with her father about her upcoming marriage as 1984. This is undoubtedly correct as Ennis mentions that Alma Jr.'s is now 19. To retain the screenplay's dating of Ennis's visit to the Twists as 1982 and to have this, the next scene, taking place in 1984, imposes a somewhat awkward 18 months or so between the two scenes. I find it artistically more appealing to have the winter visit to the Twists followed by the spring visit of Alma Jr.
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The fact that there are demonstrable confusions with dates in parts of the published screenplay encouraged me and others, like enniscake, to suggest the change of the 1982 dates in the screenplay to 1983.
I don't object to making changes, but then the timeline would no longer be authoritative, no matter how valid the reasons. We need to be rigorous in our terms here. The authoritative time is as agreed, the one(s) derived from the short story, the screen play, the movie, no matter how much they conflict or show inconsistencies.
Any changes would be tentative at best, subject to agreement. I am open to this, as long as the discussion is reasonable.
The reasons for this change are threefold:
1. This is the date given for their final meeting in the short story:
In May of 1983 they spent a few cold days at a series of little icebound, no-name high lakes, then worked across into the Hail Strew River drainage.
Well this definitely set the short story timeline against the screen play. Since there are more than one place that is significantly different between the two, I think it would be futile to try to force them into a consistent single timeline. IMO, we need to accept each as an independent piece of work, and follow the timeline for the shortstory when reading it, and follow another timeline for the movie when watching it. To mix the two would be to compromise the integrity of both.
2. Lureen says that Jack was 39 when he died. We know that Jack was 19 when he first met Ennis in 1963. Therefore the year must be that part of 1983 before Jack turns 40.
This depends on Jack's birthdate, which is unknown. Since they are definitely 19, and met in the summer, we can safely assume that BOTH their birthdays are in the latter half of the year 1953. This means that Jack's death can occur between the summer of 1982 and the summer of 1983 to be consistent with Lureen's statement. Since the final confrontation is in the spring of 1981, according to the screen play, there is definitely a problem. I'd prefer to think Lureen made a mistake in the middle of her stressful conversation with a stranger, than to think the screen play was wrong, in more than one place. So Jack died when he was only 38.
3. The screenplay dates Alma Jr.'s meeting with her father about her upcoming marriage as 1984. This is undoubtedly correct as Ennis mentions that Alma Jr.'s is now 19. To retain the screenplay's dating of Ennis's visit to the Twists as 1982 and to have this, the next scene, taking place in 1984, imposes a somewhat awkward 18 months or so between the two scenes. I find it artistically more appealing to have the winter visit to the Twists followed by the spring visit of Alma Jr.
Yes, I recall Ennis saying Alma being 19 during her visit. This can date her birth year with certainty, since the visit is clearly stated as 1984. So Alma was born in the early part of the year 1965.
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I think you're misunderstanding me, LC. In using the term "authoratative" I was referring to the text or texts, not to authorship. The screenplay text published in Brokeback Mountain:Story to Screenplay is the "authoratative" one, as it is the final one and therefore has greater "authority" than any of the earlier versions. Likewise, the text of the short story in Brokeback Mountain:Story to Screenplay is more "authoratative" than the earlier version published in the New Yorker as it is the final version of the short story and is in the "final" form that Annie Proulx wanted. Fortunately, with Brokeback, there's no confusion over authorship.
Nope. I understood you perfectly, and wanted to be clear on the meaning of authoritative, and also to stress on the fact that the screen play differs significantly in a number of places with the short story, and there fore we can NOT be expected to match the two perfectly. To do so is in my opinion a futile attempt.
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You understand, I trust, LC, that when I call a text "authoritative", I'm not thereby claiming it is necessarily without textual problems which would require editorial intervention if a text is being edited for publication. This happens all the time with the preparation of a Shakespeare play for publication. Take Hamlet for example.An editor can't have Hamlet both saying:
O that this too to sullied flesh would melt
and
O this too too solid flesh would melt
He has to make a choice between "sullied" and "solid" and, presumably, would also have to provide some rationale for the choice he has made.
However, if an editor had to reissue the screenplay as it appears in Brokeback Mountain: Story to Screenplay, I don't think there's any reason for scriptural invasions by the editor unless he wants to point out, by a footnote, such things as that although it is a deer which Ennis and Jack are supposed to kill in the script, it is not a deer but an elk that actually gets killed in the movie. However, with some of the dates published in the screenplay, it is a different story. Editorial intervention is there demanded. The best example of this occurs on pp. 54-56 of the screenplay. There the swing scene is dated 1971, and the next three scenes - the pissant scene, the Alma discovers postcard scene and the blue parka scene - are all dated 1969, though, in addition, in the blue parka scene there is a direction that there should be seen a wall calendar showing the date as 1973. Clearly an editor has to do something to untangle this confusion. What I have done (silently) in my timeline is to keep the girls on swing scene and the pissant scene in 1971 and move Alma's discovery of the postcard and the blue parka scene to 1972, chiefly because the postcard that Alma discovers in their mail is very prominently datestamped "July, 1972". (I don't have a footnote about all of this in my timeline, so maybe I should. What do you think?). Anyway, this is my editorial solution but if you were the editor, maybe there's a different solution you'd like too offer or discuss. Obviously things can't just be left to stand as they are.
This also applies to the later 1982 dates which I have silently amended to 1983. This is chiefly because in both short story and screenplay, Lureen says that Jack is 39. Both the short story and the screenplay date the Brokeback summer as 1963 and the short story establishes that Jack is nineteen then. Therefore his death must occur before that point in 1983 when he turns 40. Your suggestion that it is 1982 but that Lureen gets confused and says Jack is 39 when Jack is actually 38 I find unlikely and therefore unconvincing.
However, there is a more elegant way of resolving this problem which I've been thinking about over the last couple of days.What if there is a divergence between the short story and the screen play over Jack's age during that summer on Brokeback. What if he's twenty - and there is real textual support in the screen play for this - and not nineteen, then all these problems start to melt away. It still leaves that awkward time gap of about 18 months between the penultimate scene and the final scene but that's something I can live with. I'll think about this a little more before emending the timeline with new dates.
I find discussions of things like the timeline great fun. I hope you do too. Indeed, I was thinking that it might be interesting to look at the various ways that Ang Lee has of establishing time in the movie. It can be through seeing written things like datestamps on postcards or dates on banners or what an announcer says, but it can be also through the dates of a movie shown, like "Surf Party" or even the dates of certain cars or trucks.
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I merely pointed out that, to me, "authoritative" refers to someone who can state with authority, and to me, that has to be the original authors of the respective works...Annie Proulx for the short story, Dianna Okssana and Larry MacMurtry for the screen play, and Ang Lee for the movie. We agree that any deviations from the said authoritative versions (as released in the PSP and final cut of the movie) need to have footnote/explanation, and can no longer be considered the authoritative timeline.
I agree that each work of art has its respective discrepancies which detract from their realism, and it is this reason that I often overlook them, to focus on the story, and not be distracted from the suspense of disbelief so essential to dramatic performances. There is nothing that ruins a good story faster than the jolt of dissonance with the belief that it is real.
So the answer to your question, if I enjoy this, I have to answer with only a qualified yes. I enjoy it to the extent that I am a trivia hound dog, as Tony so fondly called me more than once. I enjoy digging up stuff to understand what lies beneath. To that extent, I enjoy finding out the connections between the events in each respective story, to make the story more interesting. On the other hand, when the discrepancies create the dissonance that detract from the realism of the story, I find it distasteful. It's like finding a blemish in a masterpiece. I wish there aren't any. But life is not perfect, and we just gotta stand it if we can't fix it.
I prefer to keep two separate timelines because the short story and the movie are sufficiently different that in my opinion it would be futile to try to reconcile the two. Cassie does not exist in the short story. And the motel scene is "sequentially" moved in the movie if I recall. I must confess that it has been a LONG time since I last watched the movie, and went over the screen play. I am far from familiar with the short story. So I appreciate learning all the interesting tidbits.
Having said that, it is also a lot of work, and I am not sure I enjoy it THAT much. ::) :P
Kudos to you and anyone else who dedicated so much time and effort into this. :clap: :clap: :t)
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Once again, a minor observation of mine... :i
The calendar in this scene shows "January 1966" (it's visible on Blu-ray, I'll get that picture later on):
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkcanig.blu.livefilestore.com%2Fy1pk7LG7jy-jtogPCL2zgXh8ts-Rv-yYbCNXFqXRdq2yZHbbUfM_piw91PFSS-3frxyGg0Zmr0PhJRLOzyiKilMPCwt4RPV3Rzi%2Fcalendar.jpg&hash=d28f25fed7c0412d76987497db761813134a113c)
Per se, this doesn't 'prove' anything but it contradicts the above mentioned "Jun 1966: I would if I have three hands". Also the sceneries outdoors don't support January..or do they?
After all I'd say this is some intentional ambiguity despite Ang Lee's authenticity.
Further more, the calendar states that the January 1st is Tuesday. The January 1st fell on Tuesday only in 1963 in the 1960's. See 1966 here (http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=1966&country=1).
There's also this other calendar obscurity though in the screenplay (Story to Screenplay) only: it's supposed to be 1969 when Jack is looking for his blue parka while talking to Lureen but the calendar is supposed to show 1973. This scene is preceded by Alma reading the July 1972 postcard 'fish should be jumping'; the honey-honey continuation.
Or am I missing some point here? ^*() :i ^*()
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(:* rdx You the man! That's awesome detective work.
I think the calendar can be easily explained. It is conceivable that after the birth of the children, Ennis and Alma got so busy, they didn't bother ripping the pages from the calendar, for four months. Spring is especially a busy time for a ranch hand.
Then again, if the calendar is indeed 1963, which means it is probably a genuine antique collector's item that was borrowed for the film, the owner would not be happy with the pages being torn or folded in any way. So they had to preserve it the way it was.
(:* thanks for all your technical expertise rdx. O0 :c)
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You're welcome Mr lancecowboy "s;"
I agree with you on both points. I'm not completely sure about the last digit of 1966 on the calendar; it's partially out of the picture when the camera is still.
In general I'd say that details like these ones shouldn't matter while timelining, for example. Film, as a form of art, doesn't need to authenticate the reality per se, IMHO. E.g. the phases of the Moon (mentioned above) are (just) matters of visualization.
See here (http://www.buzzimage.com/videoLink/video.php?section=makingOf&idVideo=6&videoFormat=small&lang=en). This link was originally posted by theohsocurlyone in here (http://www.ennisjack.com/forum/index.php?topic=7337.0). The link was updated by Monsieur chameau..somewhere else.. O0
I like 'nuit américaine'..day for night.. :P The colour correction/grading is everyday stuff, a sort of glamour filter.
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That's amazing. I didn't realize so much of Brokeback Mountain was special effects. I knew about the sheep, but it seems a lot of the sky was also artificially created.
I love the part "Add Moon". ;D The power of the director is limitless.
The spear of sunlight on the lone tree on a hill...that's superb.
Brokeback Mountain is not just a movie; it's a work of art.
(:* Ang Lee.
O0 rdx
PS. It was probably decided not to FX the calendar because the film had a limited budget, and Ang Lee probably thought nobody would notice something that tiny which only flashes on screen for a few seconds. You the man, rdx. ^f^
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PS. It was probably decided not to FX the calendar because the film had a limited budget, and Ang Lee probably thought nobody would notice something that tiny which only flashes on screen for a few seconds.
*o)
Exactly LC. The resources (time and money) are always limited, especially money. But usually the result is much more creative and intriguing when you have limited resources: it forces you to think, focus and be more imaginative. Perfection is dull, inhuman and not interesting.
But once again, details like these shouldn't matter: it's the result that matters, not the means. BBM is a work of art, not reality per se, IMHO.
Art imitates life and life imitates art; it's a loop. Art provokes thoughts, raises questions..is of interest. Otherwise we wouldn't be here: some 4,900 members and over one million posts. #$#
Back to the topic.....!
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Once again, a minor observation of mine... :i
The calendar in this scene shows "January 1966" (it's visible on Blu-ray, I'll get that picture later on):
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkcanig.blu.livefilestore.com%2Fy1pk7LG7jy-jtogPCL2zgXh8ts-Rv-yYbCNXFqXRdq2yZHbbUfM_piw91PFSS-3frxyGg0Zmr0PhJRLOzyiKilMPCwt4RPV3Rzi%2Fcalendar.jpg&hash=d28f25fed7c0412d76987497db761813134a113c)
Per se, this doesn't 'prove' anything but it contradicts the above mentioned "Jun 1966: I would if I have three hands". Also the sceneries outdoors don't support January..or do they?
After all I'd say this is some intentional ambiguity despite Ang Lee's authenticity.
Further more, the calendar states that the January 1st is Tuesday. The January 1st fell on Tuesday only in 1963 in the 1960's. See 1966 here (http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=1966&country=1).
There's also this other calendar obscurity though in the screenplay (Story to Screenplay) only: it's supposed to be 1969 when Jack is looking for his blue parka while talking to Lureen but the calendar is supposed to show 1973. This scene is preceded by Alma reading the July 1972 postcard 'fish should be jumping'; the honey-honey continuation.
Or am I missing some point here? ^*() :i ^*()
Hi there, rdx:
You write "Per se, this doesn't 'prove' anything but it contradicts the above mentioned "Jun 1966: I would if I have three hands". Also the sceneries outdoors don't support January..or do they?
Is the reference to "Jun 1966" a reference to one of the alternate timelines on this thread? I didn't include this scene in my timeline though I suppose I could have done so. If I did I think the January 1966 of the calendar you spotted - thanks, by the way, for pointing that out as I don't think anybody has noticed this before - would be a plausible date. PSP just dates the scene as 1966 but describes the weather as "windy, bitter cold". January's weather in the high plains would probably be like this.
Some day soon I hope to edit my original timeline so it incorporates a number of things that have come up since I initially posted it. Wish me luck!
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Is the reference to "Jun 1966" a reference to one of the alternate timelines on this thread? I didn't include this scene in my timeline though I suppose I could have done so. If I did I think the January 1966 of the calendar you spotted - thanks, by the way, for pointing that out as I don't think anybody has noticed this before - would be a plausible date. PSP just dates the scene as 1966 but describes the weather as "windy, bitter cold". January's weather in the high plains would probably be like this.
Wish me luck!
You're welcome Mr chowhound.
I am referring to the timeline by enniscake ('stolen' by Mr lancecowboy #)) with the little pictures. I'd say that the 'usual' conditions in Wyoming in January were/are snowier than shown in this scene (compared to Thanksgiving in November)..once again, I'm not an expert on this.
Therefore I trust in Mr lancecowboy's explanations of the calendar: the scene didn't take place in January.
Good luck!
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You're welcome Mr chowhound.
I am referring to the timeline by enniscake ('stolen' by Mr lancecowboy #)) with the little pictures. I'd say that the 'usual' conditions in Wyoming in January were/are snowier than shown in this scene (compared to Thanksgiving in November)..once again, I'm not an expert on this.
Therefore I trust in Mr lancecowboy's explanations of the calendar: the scene didn't take place in January.
Good luck!
Hey guys, thanks for including me in this discussion, but please stop. I really have no opinion on the timeline. It's been ages since I last read the screen play or watched the movie. The timeline was fuzzy at the best of time then, and definitely disjointed for me now.
I don't know if the "if I have three hands" scene took place in January or June. Though "cold and windy" conjures up January more than June. I don't know the location of the ranch in Wyoming, but I suppose it "may" be possible that "one" particular late January day was snow-free down there in the "lower country" near Cheyenne, after a chinook wind. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheyenne,_Wyoming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheyenne,_Wyoming)
Cheyenne, like most of the rest of Wyoming, is semi-arid (Koppen BSk). Winters are cold and moderately long, but relatively dry, with a January average of 25.9 °F (−3.4 °C), highs that fail to reach freezing occur 37 days per year, and lows dip to the 0 °F (−18 °C) mark on 12 nights.[6] However, the coldness is often interrupted, with chinook winds blowing downslope from the Rockies that can warm conditions, bringing the high above 50 °F (10 °C) on 20 days from December to February.[6] Snowfall is greatest in March and April, averaging 60 inches (152 cm) for the season, yet thick snow cover rarely stays
As for stealing form enniscake... ^*) I was providing a free service, advertising their contribution to the Brokeback Mountain community without any personal gain. %^%
:P :c) Watch your words bud or I will have to wrestle you to the ground come next August. #)
::) Come to think of it, I might just do that on principle, like Ennis did to KC until he stopped picking on him. :c) :cr)
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The conclusion: the scene took place in the spring of 1966.
*o)
As for stealing form enniscake... ^*) I was providing a free service, advertising their contribution to the Brokeback Mountain community without any personal gain. %^%
:P :c) Watch your words bud or I will have to wrestle you to the ground come next August. #)
::) Come to think of it, I might just do that on principle, like Ennis did to KC until he stopped picking on him. :c) :cr)
:8 It's K.E. brother! Yup, thighs for bull riding... #s} "All that stealing might get you killed!" #)
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The conclusion: the scene took place in the spring of 1966.
No argument from me. #)
*o)
:8 It's K.E. brother! Yup, thighs for bull riding... #s} "All that stealing might get you killed!" #)
Like I said, the movie and shortstory have begun to get a bit fuzzy for me. KC, KE, what's a tiny little horizontal stroke between friends. :cr)
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The conclusion: the scene took place in the spring of 1966.
*o)
:8 It's K.E. brother! Yup, thighs for bull riding... #s} "All that stealing might get you killed!" #)
Hi rdx,
I wouldn't give up so easily on the calendar date providing the wrong date because of the look of the landscape outside. Indeed, I would argue that a calendar showing that it is January was introduced into the scene precisely to establish the January date of this scene because the countryside doesn't look sufficiently wintery.
First, PSP describes the weather conditions as "windy, bitter cold". Not just "cold" but "bitter cold" which would be suitable for January. Then we hear of Alma Jr.'s "runny nose" which again would be a likely ailment in a bitterly cold winter. The calendar backs all of this up by placing the scene somewhere in the January of 1966.
The problem, however, is that the scene wasn't shot in January. I've just checked the call sheets and the exterior shot where we see Alma taking in the laundry and briefly glimpse the surrounding countryside was shot on June 9. By that time, the winter snows around Claresholm, where this "lonesome house" is located and the scene was shot, would have been long gone.
Conclusion: it was decided to introduce a calendar into this scene to let the audience know that it's supposed to be January and not the June suggested by the look of the countryside outside.
Not that it matters that much whether it is January or the spring you suggest. More important is that Alma's honeyed words have had their effect on Ennis and this remote place is exchanged for the Riverton apartment. We don't know exactly when the move was made but my guess is that when the family attends the Fourth of July fireworks, they are already settled into their new quarters above the laundromat.
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I wouldn't give up so easily on the calendar date providing the wrong date because of the look of the landscape outside. Indeed, I would argue that a calendar showing that it is January was introduced into the scene precisely to establish the January date of this scene because the countryside doesn't look sufficiently wintery.
:i :i :i
Well, here's finally a partial frame capture from a Blu-ray; judge for yourselves:
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkcanig.sn2.livefilestore.com%2Fy1pA7QHVxKLjeqjbto-plKfAs84yrT2jRSfLWg3h527uB1Hs_I-Zw4wJc4M0NgayiIWZR-YvY6sHEahjbOUb7ZbcukafHeyQuNf%2FCalendar_BD_shot.png&hash=5a4ee4261fd5054918924d757bc4c769440e6c27)
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Thanks, rdx. You the man. O0 O0 :t) :t)
I can't make out the year and month that well, but if it is January, and Jan 1 is on a Tuesday, then it can be only 1963.
Day of Week of Jan 1 for years 1961-1969
1961 Sunday
1962 Monday
1963 Tuesday
1964 Wednesday
1965 Friday
1966 Saturday
1967 Sunday
1968 Monday
1969 Wednesday
So that makes it January of 1963.
What scene were we talking about? :s) ;D %&)
Oh, yeah, you already stated the conclusions clearly, including the year,etc. You the man. O0
I am one who prefer to see the forest instead of the tree. Digging a little to deeply and analyzing the detail a little too closely or minutely almost invariably lead to losing sight of the artistic whole. It's like doing spectroscopy on a rainbow. Clever and useful and scientific, but d@M# unsatisfactory artistically emotionally, well for me anyway. Others may find it emotionally satisfying to understand the physics of refraction internal reflection, etc. I just can't see the forest when I am in a tree. :c)
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Facinatin' guys.
You're both right, sure looks like a "6" as in 1966 to me. But LC's right, only Jan 1st Tuesday was in '63. Seems like an INCREDIBLE amount of subterfuge on the part of the movie guys just to confuse things. One has to ask why? Does this calendar appear in any 1963 shots? i.e. Aguirre's office or sumthin'? Maybe in some shots that were edited out like the filling station in Signal where Ennis met the old mechanic on his way to Aguirre's? Course that wus May, huh? Maybe they just had it in the prop dept and thought an old calendar would look good there, not thinkin' that anybody would be fool enough to freeze-frame it in Blu-Ray, enlarge it, and then have a discussion about why it was there.
:i
Nice work nonetheless.
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Thank you LC & jackster!
I am one who prefer to see the forest instead of the tree. Digging a little to deeply and analyzing the detail a little too closely or minutely almost invariably lead to losing sight of the artistic whole. It's like doing spectroscopy on a rainbow. Clever and useful and scientific, but d@M# unsatisfactory artistically emotionally, well for me anyway. Others may find it emotionally satisfying to understand the physics of refraction internal reflection, etc. I just can't see the forest when I am in a tree. :c)
I so agree with you Mr lancecowboy O0. Mantsurian hevoskastanjain varjoista I greet you. ;)
Maybe they just had it in the prop dept and thought an old calendar would look good there, not thinkin' that anybody would be fool enough to freeze-frame it in Blu-Ray, enlarge it, and then have a discussion about why it was there.
:i
Nice work nonetheless.
#):i :i :i #)
You're so right Mr jackster. Though my original observation was...by a mere chance..I wasn't looking for anything. I stop now. "s;"
In general I refer to my earlier posts..about art #).
PS. Nothing's enlarged..no need to. #s}
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Many thanks, rdx, for posting that screencap of the wall calendar. As far as I know, you're the first person to spot it, so I think we should name it after you.
The screenplay dates this scene as 1966 but doesn't give it a month. However, the screenplay also describes the weather at the time as "windy, bitter cold" so placing it in January would be appropriate. (Jenny also has a runny nose). However, Ang's problem was that he wasn't filming this scene in Wyoming in the winter but in the Albertan Rockies in June - the scene was shot on June 9. However, he needed that exterior shot where Alma is taking in the laundry to establish the utter isolation of the cabin but, as it's June, the surrounding land doesn't look at all wintery. So I think he therefore needed the calendar to establish that this was supposed to be a winter scene, not a summer one, no matter what the surrounding countryside looked like.
The calendar certainly looks "authentic" to me but I've no ready explanation for lynx-eyed Lance's observation that on the calendar Tuesday is the first and that would be true of 1963 but not 1966. Maybe they had a '63 calendar available and not a '66, so simply replaced the heading with January, 1966. After all, that is all that is necessary to be known as no specific day is mentioned during the scene.
Isolating things like this I think is a way of honouring the meticulous care that went into the making of this magnificent movie. I think Ang and his screenwriters, Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana, wanted events very much rooted in specific times and places and it is from this specificity that the larger themes emerge. One of these "specificities" is indeed time and its passage during the twenty years that Jack and Ennis have together. Ang starts the movie by indicating time in the most obvious manner as it says on the screen that it's Signal, 1963, but after that his approach is much more subtle. Of course, the children change with time as do Jack and Ennis in outward appearance. Even their voices change as they age. ( They were coached to have three different voices to cover the aging process). Then there are the more detailed references: dates on postcards, on banners at rodeos and dance halls, a date given by the announcer at the Fourth of July fireworks, appropriate film clips (Surf Party) or a TV series barely glimpsed in the background, changing makes of automobiles - more Jack, of course than Ennis - or bare statements like Lureen saying that Jack was only 39. Almost all of these can only be found in the movie and not the short story. I don't want to even suggest that this is "all" the movie is about but we do have a richly envisaged passage of time though which the movie flows and this, I think, it is proper to detail.
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I agree that the richness in detail in the movie contributes to its authenticity. It is when we dig too closely, and see little dissonances like the date and days on the Calendar that the magic of the movie recedes a little. It is good to have sharp vision, but too close to the comic page, and all we can see are dots, and not the big picture.
The magical feel of time flowing in the movie is a result, in my opinion, of the relationships and juxtaposition of different elements rather than the specific detail of any one element. That was my point about the forest and the trees; the dots and the big picture. Please don't take offense at this because I think we are on the same wavelength. I just wanted to inject a little moderation into the discussion of the sharpness of detail. In other words, I think the magnification of the microscope is enough already. ^f^ No need to get any closer.
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Many thanks, rdx, for posting that screencap of the wall calendar. As far as I know, you're the first person to spot it, so I think we should name it after you.
#s}
Thank you chowhound; I do appreciate your thought but my observation was an accident and it doesn't deserve any credit. Thanks anyway.
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. . . Isolating things like this I think is a way of honouring the meticulous care that went into the making of this magnificent movie.
O0 O0 O0
. . . Then there are the more detailed references: dates on postcards, on banners at rodeos . . . . but we do have a richly envisaged passage of time though which the movie flows and this, I think, it is proper to detail. . .
Just to add one more note of place / time reference - license plates. Those familiar with the once widespread custom in the US of annual changes in license plates know that the various color combinations can be used to ID the year of issue for various plates. Also, in Wyoming in particular, locale can be ID'd by the first two numbers of the plate as these indicate the county. The following illustrates some of what we see in the film - or in other graphics - and just to make things fun for us kooks, somebody has played with some of the hints to mix it up a bit. Some illustrations -
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2Ftruck048.jpg&hash=6b16f5c73d4fb0d3fc1d4dbb350ac33e67a51abc)(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2Fbighorn.jpg&hash=a812060a322ffecfb73f5801851f6f04495c6524) (https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2Fwyo.gif&hash=28f34cbe340c39836c53ccba40bc5d71a761f331)
This plate as seen in some still shots with Ennis & Jack next to Ennis late 50's GMC pickup, a truck he supposedly didn't have in '63. Of course they are both shown dressed in their 1963 wardrobe, and the truck plate appears to be a 1963 Wyoming plate (white on faded black). No date is visible though. Next to this is shown the "county key" to WYO plates. So we know the "9" is Big Horn county.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2FEnnisplates1983-11-937.jpg&hash=5082f0a05ea6f40e61637053c791408a0b3ee068)
A later shot during the last confrontation shows the front of Ennis 1966 Ford truck with a "proper" 1978-1982 Wyoming plate from Park County, "11". (During the 80s many US states moved away from annual plate changes).
More plates are visible at different spots in the film, I won't include them all here, but here are examples of the Wyoming plate colors during the 60's & 70's. Notice how they moved the WYO from top to bottom on alternate years.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2F1960s.jpg&hash=1f016ec1357899f9931c2aa5a6464288af3285f9) (https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2F1970s.jpg&hash=899ef59c97a280e49f106dc2ec9df07ed17bc083)
And to just show off some of my private BBM collection, some period WYO plates of significant BBM years and/or counties, 1943, 1963, 1967, 1982, etc. that I've managed to corral. The "17" plate is 1943 from Campbell County where Lighting Flat is located. Jack coulda' been born in late '43. The '44 Wyoming plates were made of cardboard due to war shortage of metal and hence are very scarce and expensive.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2FJacksWYOplates2010copy.jpg&hash=a93fb2dde200d44d17cb7e59d1a511c9bdeaf96f)
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O0 O0 O0
Just to add one more note of place / time reference - license plates. Those familiar with the once widespread custom in the US of annual changes in license plates know that the various color combinations can be used to ID the year of issue for various plates. Also, in Wyoming in particular, locale can be ID'd by the first two numbers of the plate as these indicate the county. The following illustrates some of what we see in the film - or in other graphics - and just to make things fun for us kooks, somebody has played with some of the hints to mix it up a bit. Some illustrations -
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2Ftruck048.jpg&hash=6b16f5c73d4fb0d3fc1d4dbb350ac33e67a51abc)(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2Fbighorn.jpg&hash=a812060a322ffecfb73f5801851f6f04495c6524) (https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2Fwyo.gif&hash=28f34cbe340c39836c53ccba40bc5d71a761f331)
This plate as seen in some still shots with Ennis & Jack next to Ennis late 50's GMC pickup, a truck he supposedly didn't have in '63. Of course they are both shown dressed in their 1963 wardrobe, and the truck plate appears to be a 1963 Wyoming plate (white on faded black). No date is visible though. Next to this is shown the "county key" to WYO plates. So we know the "9" is Big Horn county.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2FEnnisplates1983-11-937.jpg&hash=5082f0a05ea6f40e61637053c791408a0b3ee068)
A later shot during the last confrontation shows the front of Ennis 1966 Ford truck with a "proper" 1978-1982 Wyoming plate from Park County, "11". (During the 80s many US states moved away from annual plate changes).
More plates are visible at different spots in the film, I won't include them all here, but here are examples of the Wyoming plate colors during the 60's & 70's. Notice how they moved the WYO from top to bottom on alternate years.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2F1960s.jpg&hash=1f016ec1357899f9931c2aa5a6464288af3285f9) (https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2F1970s.jpg&hash=899ef59c97a280e49f106dc2ec9df07ed17bc083)
And to just show off some of my private BBM collection, some period WYO plates of significant BBM years and/or counties, 1943, 1963, 1967, 1982, etc. that I've managed to corral. The "17" plate is 1943 from Campbell County where Lighting Flat is located. Jack coulda' been born in late '43. The '44 Wyoming plates were made of cardboard due to war shortage of metal and hence are very scarce and expensive.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2FJacksWYOplates2010copy.jpg&hash=a93fb2dde200d44d17cb7e59d1a511c9bdeaf96f)
Wow jackster! All this is very impressive. I know very little about automobiles - in fact I never learned how to drive one - so I never thought of license plates as an indicator of time and place. As well, it looks as though you could identify the various makes of pickup trucks that Jack and Ennis drive during the course of the movie - something I certainly couldn't do. (By the way, does Ennis's first pickup look to you pretty similar to the one Jack was driving when he first arrived at Aguirre's trailer? If so, that could be psychologically quite telling.)
One of your comments I need a little help with. This is when you say that "The following illustrates some of what we see in the film - or in other graphics - and just to make things fun for us kooks, somebody has played with some of the hints to mix it up a bit." Was this a reference to your comments on the 50's pickup truck that Ennis and Jack are leaning against in the publicity still? Or was it a reference to something else?
Also, could that truck not be Ennis's, as you assume it to be, but the truck the Basque was driving when he took them to the pickup point?
Anyway, you've clearly opened a whole new area for compulsive nuts like us to discuss.
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One of your comments I need a little help with. This is when you say that "The following illustrates some of what we see in the film - or in other graphics - and just to make things fun for us kooks, somebody has played with some of the hints to mix it up a bit." Was this a reference to your comments on the 50's pickup truck that Ennis and Jack are leaning against in the publicity still? Or was it a reference to something else?
Also, could that truck not be Ennis's, as you assume it to be, but the truck the Basque was driving when he took them to the pickup point?
thanks mucho ch. ;)
My comment was just to reflect on this publicity photo that shows the boys in their '63 wardrobes, but leaning against the same pickup we see Ennis driving in 1967 when he gets the postcard from Jack (and earlier on the lonesome ranch). [Sorry it is certainly the same pickup we see Ennis driving when he comes home to find the postcard, it's identifiable by the "replacement" front door (driver's side) in an off-color.] It's clear from the movie that in '63 Ennis couldn't even afford a cigarette lighter, let alone a such a pickup truck, which then would have been only 6 years old (Jack's would have been 13 y/o at the time).
There was a topic, way back when in '06 I think, regarding the pickups in which I outlined the make, model, and years of the various trucks used. Indeed, you are correct regarding the 'Ennis following Jack' routine in the truck models. In short, Jack is first shown with a '50 GMC (black), then Ennis is shown with a '57 GMC (gray) 4 years later in '67 - though these use different body styles. However, Jack shows up with a '66 Ford (red+white) at Ennis's in 1967, and eventually we see Ennis with a similar '66 Ford (turquoise+white) same body style. I made the point then and thought it was a real curiosity, but probably unintended by the prop dept. It would have added considerable expense and time to find the right vintage vehicles to ensure that this particular vehicular sequence was followed. I consider it, like so many aspects of this film, just a beautiful and serendipitous cooincidence.
:c)
BTW - another scene where the plate "gives away" the year is the Alma/Ennis argument when she walks out (to take the extra shift). Ennis's GMC pickup is parked in the drive and shows the green+yellow colors of a 1970 WYO plate.
:cb:
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(:* (:* (:* Jackster. O0 O0 O0 That is amazing!
The serendipity of truck model totally escaped me...not surprisingly since I ain't much into automobiles. I love the county registration of Wyoming license plates. Getting hold of the Campbell country plate is a real coup dude!
I am planning on watching Brokeback Mountain again soon, so it will be interesting to look out for the truck models. :t)
... you've clearly opened a whole new area for compulsive nuts like us to discuss.
Yup. You bet. And loving it. Thanks you guys! $)
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Just to add one more note of place / time reference - license plates.
O0 Shall thee be praised, jackster. :clap:
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thanks mucho ch. ;)
My comment was just to reflect on this publicity photo that shows the boys in their '63 wardrobes, but leaning against the same pickup we see Ennis driving in 1967 when he gets the postcard from Jack (and earlier on the lonesome ranch). [Sorry it is certainly the same pickup we see Ennis driving when he comes home to find the postcard, it's identifiable by the "replacement" front door (driver's side) in an off-color.] It's clear from the movie that in '63 Ennis couldn't even afford a cigarette lighter, let alone a such a pickup truck, which then would have been only 6 years old (Jack's would have been 13 y/o at the time).
There was a topic, way back when in '06 I think, regarding the pickups in which I outlined the make, model, and years of the various trucks used. Indeed, you are correct regarding the 'Ennis following Jack' routine in the truck models. In short, Jack is first shown with a '50 GMC (black), then Ennis is shown with a '57 GMC (gray) 4 years later in '67 - though these use different body styles. However, Jack shows up with a '66 Ford (red+white) at Ennis's in 1967, and eventually we see Ennis with a similar '66 Ford (turquoise+white) same body style. I made the point then and thought it was a real curiosity, but probably unintended by the prop dept. It would have added considerable expense and time to find the right vintage vehicles to ensure that this particular vehicular sequence was followed. I consider it, like so many aspects of this film, just a beautiful and serendipitous cooincidence.
:c)
BTW - another scene where the plate "gives away" the year is the Alma/Ennis argument when she walks out (to take the extra shift). Ennis's GMC pickup is parked in the drive and shows the green+yellow colors of a 1970 WYO plate.
:cb:
Many thanks, Jackster, for your explanation. I now see what you mean when you call the truck in the publicity still, "Ennis's truck".
You write:"There was a topic, way back when in '06 I think, regarding the pickups in which I outlined the make, model, and years of the various trucks used." Do you still have that post. And if you do would you be kind enough to repost it with any additional information or commentary you might like to add? I would like to have that list so I could file it in my main Brokeback file for future reference and also I'd also like to print it out and have it as a sort of appendix for the Published Screen Play.
As I've already mentioned, I know almost nothing about automobiles and license plates as I've never owned a car and never learned how to drive one. For instance, when Ennis tells Jack how he had to quit high school because "the transmission went on the pickup" I've no real idea what he's talking about except for generally understanding that with the transmission no longer functioning, he couldn't drive the truck. In addition, I've always assumed that getting the transmission repaired was probably quite a big job and out of Ennis's financial reach.
So, with that in mind, tell me about license plates. Does a US driver have to get relicensed every year or can a license run for a longer period? I assume licenses are issued throughout the year and not only on one date, like Jan 1, no? I ask because you say that in the "argument" scene the license plate is for 1970 but the PSP places the scene in 1971. I assume that would be possible if Ennis's 1970 license plate had still some time to run before expiring in 1971. Is that how things work?
Chowhound the Automobile Simpleton.
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Oh boy CH, this is gonna' be FUN!
I'll start with the easiest one, 'cause I'm kinda' short on time right now:
So, with that in mind, tell me about license plates. Does a US driver have to get re-licensed every year or can a license run for a longer period? I assume licenses are issued throughout the year and not only on one date, like Jan 1, no? I ask because you say that in the "argument" scene the license plate is for 1970 but the PSP places the scene in 1971. I assume that would be possible if Ennis's 1970 license plate had still some time to run before expiring in 1971. Is that how things work?
In the US all vehicular licensing laws are rights held by the various states, the Federal gov't has virtually no authority in this area. So there is a significant amount of variation amongst the 50 "united" states. PLATES: The various states decide how, when, and by what method to license the vehicles in that state. Typically the owner of a vehicle is required to renew the vehicle registration every year or in some cases every other year. Some states used to issue a new display plate with the new registration every year. This way a law officer could not only ID a particular car by the plate number, but also make sure it was legally registered that year depending on the color of the plate. It is also easy to ID out of state plates. Some states (California for example) didn't issue NEW plates every year, but just re-registered the same plate over and over, and the same plate stayed with the car. This has become the norm in the past 20 years or so in most, if not all, states. In my state, Ohio it used to be the case that indeed the new license plates were issued at the beginning of the new year and by April 1st (I think) everyone needed to display their new plates. Now you just get a little sticker to affix to the same plate. Of course this meant that every year you had a new plate number, which was challenging. It was possible to get the same number over and over every year, but you needed to request it in writing at the local bureau. In cold areas of the country it was impractical to expect folks to go out and change the plate in the snow and ice, so you're right about Ennis's 1970 plate, he had a while in 1971 before it needed to be replaced.
Now this registration is for the vehicle. Drivers licenses (for the humans) are an entirely different matter, but like the vehicles are the purview of the states.
Some early Ohio license plates:
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2F06copy-1.jpg&hash=8ab781ab842c8d97190b7160f1d0532d52dc09f8)
Wyoming - some add'l info for interest - The "buckin' bronco" on the WYO plate was introduced in 1936 and was a real horse name "Steamboat", you can learn more about 'em at:
http://www.alpca.org/faq/bronco/ (http://www.alpca.org/faq/bronco/)
As mentioned, the first 1 or 2 numbers on the WYO plates identify the county. The numbers reflect the ranking of the county in terms of real wealth I believe. This ranking was done in the 30's I believe and the numbers have stayed the same since. So "9" has always been Big Horn County, "10" has always been Fremont County (Riverton), etc. So for a movie like this, set in Wyoming and spanning several years and using vehicles like this, it was like deciphering a code book to ID the locale and years.
I'll work on the rest of your Q's soon.
:c)
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the "truckin" topic: http://www.ennisjack.com/forum/index.php?topic=7642.30 (http://www.ennisjack.com/forum/index.php?topic=7642.30)
my truck post from Nov 2006 with later corrections:
OK, since you ask, . . . trucks used by the boys, numbered in order of screen appearance. Model years are as close as I can do without gettin' a bunch a old books out:
#1 - Jack's black '50 GMC, opening scene, etc.
#2 - Ennis's '57 GMC (you see a lot of still pictures posed with this one).
Jack returns to Signal in his '50 GMC.
Jack goes rodeoin' in his '50 GMC, meets Lureen.
Ennis goes to grocery with the girls in his '57 GMC.
Ennis comes home to Alma & Jack's postcard in his '57 GMC.
Ennis goes to post office "you bet" in his '57 GMC.
#3 - Jacks red & white '66 Ford F-100, redlines it to see Ennis in 1967.
The boys go "fishin" in the red & white '66 Ford.
#4 - Ennis now has a turquoise & white '66 Ford F-100, he goes camping & meets Jack
who now has:
#5 Jacks blue, late 60s or possibly early '70s Ford F-100 with a camper cap (over the bed).
In the post-divorce reunion scene they're both still drivin' the same rigs.
In the Thanksgiving rush-out scene / Black & Blue Eagle bar fight scene Ennis's still driving his '66 Ford.
#6 Jacks brown & white late 70s GMC "dually" they're called duallys 'cause of the dual rear wheels. Last truck we see Jack with.
Ennis at PO with "deceased" post card and at Jack's folks at Lighting Flat is still driving his '66 Ford (#4) which by now, 1982, would be 16 years old.
'Course this is just an outline.
There are a lot of other trucks that appear (like Jacks father's), but these are the significant ones. For those of you not from the USofA, GMC (or Jimmy's in the vernacular) is a basically a "re-badged" Chevy sold by other General Motors dealers.
Curiosity: Jack gets a GMC, then Ennis gets a GMC; Jack gets a Ford, then Ennis gets a Ford.
Also, someone ask 'bout the "bars" on Jack's last truck windows. Them ain't bars, the back window on those trucks slide open, so what you see are the section dividers of the window. Same on the side windows, the "extended cab" pickups used a similar door stamping for the rear door as the front. Since a full sized window wouldn't fit down inside the door they needed to make the moving glass section a bit smaller, hence the divider.
Sorry if this is a bit long, but you did ask . . . it's not just a car, it's a truck.
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:t) Jackster. Sure am glad we got you to interpret the language of trucks and license plates. It opens a whole new dimension of the painstaking detail that Ang Lee and his team devoted to authenticity when making Brokeback Mountain. (:* The movie is just more amazing with each passing year. It is a classic. For sure.
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For no particular reason, but thought you guys would find it amusing. A WYO vanity plate that was for sale on ebay:
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2F1shot.jpg&hash=523fa2dc76233b23ccd5dab48083b88cd01c1143)
There's a contest in Wyo every year where the contestants get one shot to prove their shooting skill. Of course, for sum a' us this has an entirely different meaning. Unfortunately it was pretty rare so prices went sky high, but woulda' been great to put on my old Ford pickup.
"s;"