Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: tpe on Feb 27, 2006, 09:33 AM
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It can be argued that Ennis is the more reticent of the lovers, whereas Jack is the more emotive. Nonetheless, one can say that Ennis's love is deeper, more enduring, and ever faithful.
For Ennis, the embodiment is the final oath he takes to stay true to Jack -- even unto death.
For Jack, it is the memory of the cherished, sexless, and unifying embrace.
Personally, I tend to (or want to) identify my ideal of love with that of Ennis. But I must admit that it is Jack's vulnerable openness and acceptance that overwhelmingly captures my heart.
Which of the two is closer to your idealization of love? Which of the two captures your heart?
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After pondering this matter for 5 to 10 minutes, I have determined that both speak strongly to me.
However, my initial thought was that of Ennis. So, perhaps I should go with that one.
Ennis's love is slightly more intriguing to me due to its complexity. The very lack of openness, nevertheless with strong emotions brewing under the surface, make it most appealing.
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Which of the two is closer to your idealization of love? Which of the two captures your heart?
Ennis.
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This is a very tough question - and I keep coming back to the thread thinking "Okay, I'll reply this time", but I never really know what to say. They're both so powerful and real. Honestly, though, the first time I saw the movie, my heart went out to Jack. I was not sure why - but it's his love that touched me the most. On second viewing, I could see more clearly the deep strength of Ennis's love, and how it was almost always hidden but still showing in every look and gesture. But...
Which of the two captures your heart?
Ultimately, I want to say Jack. The way he tried so hard to move on but still kept coming back to Ennis, the way his face crumbled after he realized the divorce didn't mean they would be together. The way he says "Sometimes, I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" - you can almost hear him screaming "I love you" under those words. The way he goes and comfort Ennis after venting out all those years of anger and frustration in their last moment together... so many scenes. *stops rambling*
I could go on and on about Ennis's love too, though, but I'm sure someone else will.
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Which of the two is closer to your idealization of love? Which of the two captures your heart?
Ennis.
Same here!
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both capture me..Ennis with his struggles and trying hard to speak what is in his heart but not being able too..having his feelings locked in and struggling to come out is powerful. We do see his faithfullness through the years with not taking another lover..Ennis character is powerfull with him having a hard letting in and expressing himself verbally..he does a good job with showing his emotions with his facial expressions..I cried at the end with Ennis saying ,"I swear Jack.." because in my heart he finally comes to realize what he could have had and what he had for all those years..someone who loved him, cared for him, cherished him and understood him..it breaks your heart seeing him with the shirt and the postcard at the end of the movie..and again when he crumbles at thier last encounter..the depth of his emotions being shown but not alway being said are very powerfull..
Jack's character seems to the more vocal..with expressing his feelings, and wanting to have a real life with Ennis and live together and love together..Jack also like Ennis wore his heart on his sleeve and with his facial expressions it was clear he truly loved Ennis and was frustrated with the situation and the circumstances of the relationship of having to live a life that wasn't true..living with a wife he didn't love, and wanting his love returned ..makes his character just as touching and speaks to me as well
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100,000,000,000,000% ENNIS ;D
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Simply, always, JACK!
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it's hard to choose so i'd say both! they both capture my heart in different ways!
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it's hard to choose so i'd say both! they both capture my heart in different ways!
Absolutely agree....these guys were yin and yang.....neither was more devoted or loving...just different and a perfect compliment...one to the other....
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Which of the two is closer to your idealization of love? Which of the two captures your heart?
Jack - if he asked me what if we can have a little ranch together somewhere -- I am gone with him right away.
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it's hard to choose so i'd say both! they both capture my heart in different ways!
Absolutely agree....these guys were yin and yang.....neither was more devoted or loving...just different and a perfect compliment...one to the other....
I know it sounds like waffling, but I have to agree with these posts. Jack and Ennis both stisfy different needs and hungers that I have for identifying with either of them. Jack is so willing to take a risk, to allow himself to love someone and show them that's how he feels. Ennis tugs at the introvert in me, many times feeling awkward and clumsy, but still being able to get a point across with nonverbal cues. Someone told me that Heath read the ss like 30 times and realized that he could really bring Ennis character to the table. Bravo - Heath knew what he was talking about!
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I love both characters. But, Jack is the one I most identify with so he is the character that most matches my idealization of love and the one that captures my heart.
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Jack!! Because I like both the dichotomy of his character, the fun-loving dreamer and yet the thinker who does take a chance in expressing his hopes.
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Both, they are as stated above ying and yang. It's why we care about them. They are the perfect unreconciled couple. I sit here and at times the beauty of their love sweeps me away, at other times it crushes me and and leaves me a weeping mess.
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It can be argued that Ennis is the more reticent of the lovers, whereas Jack is the more emotive. Nonetheless, one can say that Ennis's love is deeper, more enduring, and ever faithful.
For Ennis, the embodiment is the final oath he takes to stay true to Jack -- even unto death.
For Jack, it is the memory of the cherished, sexless, and unifying embrace.
Personally, I tend to (or want to) identify my ideal of love with that of Ennis. But I must admit that it is Jack's vulnerable openness and acceptance that overwhelmingly captures my heart.
Which of the two is closer to your idealization of love? Which of the two captures your heart?
I pledge myself to your teachings (oops, wrong movie) but yes, i totally agree with you. I love Ennis's character because of his faithfulness, staying true to jack... that was just really precious for me...
drew :)
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A bit of both.
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This is probably the hardest question on the board. It's almost like asking if I like my meat cooked over an open flame or roasted in the heat of embers. Seriously I don't know who's love I would prefer. Of course I am prone to say that I would want the love expressed. It's nice to hear once in a while. But on the other hand, as long as I knew the love was there it wouldn't have to be said. Ennis' love for Jack wasn't any less intense because it wasn't expressed openly. Jack knew that.
So, I will have to resign myself to the fact that I couldn't pick one over the other. We don't get many chances at meeting a soul mate in this life so I'm not going to be picky on how that love is expressed. As long as I knew that I was in love and that love was reciprocated would be enough.
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Both, they are as stated above ying and yang. It's why we care about them. They are the perfect unreconciled couple. I sit here and at times the beauty of their love sweeps me away, at other times it crushes me and and leaves me a weeping mess.
I agree. The ying and yang part is perfect to describe them.
I just cannot help it, though, Jack is the one that captures my heart.
Awesome posts everyone.
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Jack - he's more demonstrative, more open, more SPARKY. Ennis is more of a slow burner - faithful and true. Gosh can't decide now ???
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Jack all the way.
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Ennis without a doubt. Although Ennis does not speak of love or a lifetime together, I believe he has opened up alot to Jack about painful pasts, sexual feelings and paranoia. I find him more ethical and monogamous. He basically has given up his life -family, employment, and self respect for Jack. These are qualities that make his love speak to me more than Jacks.
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Oh, you would do this to us, wouldntcha? :P
The difficulties in handling this one. I don't think I can even answer (yet).
It's a really good question, but I'll have to come back to it.
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Both, they are as stated above ying and yang. It's why we care about them. They are the perfect unreconciled couple. I sit here and at times the beauty of their love sweeps me away, at other times it crushes me and and leaves me a weeping mess.
Which of the two is closer to your idealization of love? you really got me bbboy with the bold line ...
i'll go with that, they just fit together :) / :(
Which of the two captures your heart?
ENNIS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! proud-to-be ennis girl all the way, you bet !!!!!!!!!!!!
(to explain the difference of answers to the 2 questions : ennis touches me more, but it's because he's a lot like me somewhat, so i can relate more, and not because jack's way of love looks or feels to be "less real" to me. after all, they both struggled and fought against it - though differently and at different times - they both made mistakes, in different ways, but all in all ... they just COULDN'T stay apart, and that says it all)
vanessa
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They certainly had great faults and mistakes -- but as I have said many times in the past, it is precisely because of these faults that they are immortal, and why we love them so.
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They certainly had great faults and mistakes -- but as I have said many times in the past, it is precisely because of these faults that they are immortal, and why we love them so.
I totally agree on that; they weren't perfects,and for this we love them and they loved each other.When each one of them gave the other when he was lacked of,they complemented very well.So,now I can say that both of them have these characteristics that can make a love be enduring,powerful and true.Even if I'm a Jack's girl... <^(
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I think more often, we love a person precisely because of their faults. Not that these faults don't cause misunderstandings and conflicts; rather, these conflicts/misunderstandings are like battle wounds that remind us that a love is much too precious to be bought so cheaply.
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I like what BBBOY said. They were a perfect compliment to one another. I fell harder for Jack, but admire Ennis' fidelity to Jack.
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I like what BBBOY said. They were a perfect compliment to one another. I fell harder for Jack, but admire Ennis' fidelity to Jack.
I suspect that had Jack lived to see it, he would have been astonished to realize the extent and depth of Ennis's fidelity.
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I agree again, Thomas. :f)
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Ennis's fidelity was never a question. He's never showed any glimpse on other man. He knew and loved only Jack. Then and always!
And if he agreed to live with Jack, I think that Jack would be the same. Even once Jake Gylenhaal spoke about Jack's wish to draw Ennis from his shell. Had he succeeded, maybe he won't be so interested in Ennis anymore. Just maybe! (Jake said that, NOT ME! :-X)
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I can hardly believe he said that. :(
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Something like that for sure... maybe not the exact words, but the bottom lines there ....
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It can be argued that Ennis is the more reticent of the lovers, whereas Jack is the more emotive. Nonetheless, one can say that Ennis's love is deeper, more enduring, and ever faithful.
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Which of the two is closer to your idealization of love? Which of the two captures your heart?
Now Thomas, you know I have to step in here and gently disagree with you. :*( No way is Ennis' love deeper than Jack's. As you pointed out, we saw different examples of the way that they loved one another, but neither could be said to be any deeper than the other's. They simply felt and expressed their love differently.
Having cleared that up ;) I will go on to say that for me, Jack's love is closer to my idealization of love. He gave with his whole heart, bent with the wind to accomodate the relationship, and accepted Ennis exactly as he was with whatever Ennis could give, despite the frustrations and disappointments of being denied that sweet life he craved so much. The fact that he was willing to put himself on the line - trying to reach for that life for both of them, knowing he could get shot down - was, to me, quietly heroic. Like you, I am drawn to 'Jack's vulnerable openness and acceptance.' :ghug:
I love Ennis (how could you not?) and feel a fierce protectiveness toward him, as well as a deep appreciation for what he gave when everything he'd been taught told him not to, but I'm in love with Jack because he was a beautiful dreamer.
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Now Thomas, you know I have to step in here and gently disagree with you. :*( No way is Ennis' love deeper than Jack's. As you pointed out, we saw different examples of the way that they loved one another, but neither could be said to be any deeper than the other's. They simply felt and expressed their love differently.
Having cleared that up ;) I will go on to say that for me, Jack's love is closer to my idealization of love. He gave with his whole heart, bent with the wind to accomodate the relationship, and accepted Ennis exactly as he was with whatever Ennis could give, despite the frustrations and disappointments of being denied that sweet life he craved so much. The fact that he was willing to put himself on the line - trying to reach for that life for both of them, knowing he could get shot down - was, to me, quietly heroic. Like you, I am drawn to 'Jack's vulnerable openness and acceptance.' :ghug:
I love Ennis (how could you not?) and feel a fierce protectiveness toward him, as well as a deep appreciation for what he gave when everything he'd been taught told him not to, but I'm in love with Jack because he was a beautiful dreamer.
I gotta say you two make it real easy to post here, as you hit so many of the spots I have swarming around in my mind. But it's also hard for me to teeter the measurement of love between both of them. I ultimately relate to Jack which has given me the disposition to be drawn towards the Ennis type. However, I think it's fair to say in the name of their love, none of it would have existed without the backdrop of the other. It's like how it was said they complimented each other. Neither love could have thrived without the other. To an extent I see the love as seeds, one of which had been planted much earlier on than the other. Ennis' needed to be watered to blossom, and it took courage from him to let Jack rain on his soil. It took courage from Jack as well, to emote the clouds over their mountain.
I still don't know exactly which speaks to me more, but with different tones they most definitely both do. :s)
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To an extent I see the love as seeds, one of which had been planted much earlier on than the other. Ennis' needed to be watered to blossom, and it took courage from him to let Jack rain on his soil. It took courage from Jack as well, to emote the clouds over their mountain.
That is beautiful <^(
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That is beautiful <^(
Thanks LJ :^^)
I love when Ennis sticks out his upside down cowboy hat from the tent to collect Jack's white balls :*(
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I'm just going to sit in the middle of these beautiful images for a while. <^(
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I gotta say you two make it real easy to post here, as you hit so many of the spots I have swarming around in my mind. But it's also hard for me to teeter the measurement of love between both of them. I ultimately relate to Jack which has given me the disposition to be drawn towards the Ennis type. However, I think it's fair to say in the name of their love, none of it would have existed without the backdrop of the other. It's like how it was said they complimented each other. Neither love could have thrived without the other. To an extent I see the love as seeds, one of which had been planted much earlier on than the other. Ennis' needed to be watered to blossom, and it took courage from him to let Jack rain on his soil. It took courage from Jack as well, to emote the clouds over their mountain.
I still don't know exactly which speaks to me more, but with different tones they most definitely both do. :s)
This so beautifully said OT. I feel only half the story would have been told had they not complimented the differences they had. It was like the peices fell into place perfectly . They had such chemistry.
Both had the same level of love , deep and passionate...but differently.
I guess I'm drawn to the fragilness of Ennis. Afraid to reach out and grasp love fully, yet just a taste of love from Jack can make him or break him.. His stony exterior , simply a defense mechanism, just below the surface lies someone who loves being loved. A soft touch or a simple loving gesture can brings tears. He sent up a prayer of thanks for Jack's return. That says it all though he tried to mask it behind some joke about Jack's harmomica. Jack knew exactly what he meant for real.
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This so beautifully said OT. I feel only half the story would have been told had they not complimented the differences they had. It was like the peices fell into place perfectly . They had such chemistry.
Both had the same level of love , deep and passionate...but differently.
I guess I'm drawn to the fragilness of Ennis. Afraid to reach out and grasp love fully, yet just a taste of love from Jack can make him or break him.. His stony exterior , simply a defense mechanism, just below the surface lies someone who loves being loved. A soft touch or a simple loving gesture can brings tears. He sent up a prayer of thanks for Jack's return. That says it all though he tried to mask it behind some joke about Jack's harmomica. Jack knew exactly what he meant for real.
Thank you, AF :)
I love what you say here, and I agree: Jack felt the truth behind the smirks in that scene. Fact it probably jossled around in his chest just before and during ".. just like this, always."
There is always something about the stream in the background that flows away from Jack as he speaks in this scene. For me it almost simulates the emotion and love that one cowboy rushes to the other in several instances of their relationship. :f)
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Thank you, AF :)
I love what you say here, and I agree: Jack felt the truth behind the smirks in that scene. Fact it probably jossled around in his chest just before and during ".. just like this, always."
There is always something about the stream in the background that flows away from Jack as he speaks in this scene. For me it almost simulates the emotion and love that one cowboy rushes to the other in several instances of their relationship. :f)
Exactly OT, the stream's flow strong and steady,unyeilding and of course a rush every now and then, but never allows anything to disturb it's destiny. Very much symbolic of Jack's love for Ennis, and vice/verse , No reins on this one <^( #).....especially with this scene. Thanx.
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Now Thomas, you know I have to step in here and gently disagree with you. :*( No way is Ennis' love deeper than Jack's. As you pointed out, we saw different examples of the way that they loved one another, but neither could be said to be any deeper than the other's. They simply felt and expressed their love differently.
Having cleared that up ;) I will go on to say that for me, Jack's love is closer to my idealization of love. He gave with his whole heart, bent with the wind to accomodate the relationship, and accepted Ennis exactly as he was with whatever Ennis could give, despite the frustrations and disappointments of being denied that sweet life he craved so much. The fact that he was willing to put himself on the line - trying to reach for that life for both of them, knowing he could get shot down - was, to me, quietly heroic. Like you, I am drawn to 'Jack's vulnerable openness and acceptance.' :ghug:
I love Ennis (how could you not?) and feel a fierce protectiveness toward him, as well as a deep appreciation for what he gave when everything he'd been taught told him not to, but I'm in love with Jack because he was a beautiful dreamer.
Point well taken. :) It is hard making direct comparisons. Compare the night with day?
Well, I do admit that I love the way Jack loves. He loves with the heart in both hands, and you can take it or crush it. There is the element of deep trust and a willingness to give himself totally. I love that.
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I still don't know exactly which speaks to me more, but with different tones they most definitely both do. :s)
Perhaps for you, they are aspects of the same thing. The different "tones" speak to different parts of us. The soul is not monolithic.
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Those are beautiful insights, aintfoolin and OT. ^f^
And Thomas, I loved this:
"Well, I do admit that I love the way Jack loves. He loves with the heart in both hands, and you can take it or crush it. There is the element of deep trust and a willingness to give himself totally. I love that."
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Thanks for reviving the old thread, OT. :t)
Beautiful posts and sentiments, everyone. :ghug:
For me, it was Ennis who spoke to me first, and still does, everyday.
Having lived in this forum for over a year, I am learning Jack's language as well, and I hear his love now.
I don't see one as loving more than the other. Each has his own love to give, in his own way.
The beauty of the movie is seeing their love fit each other so well, and so badly with society.
Tpe's word choice is perfect...immortal love.
:t) everyone. :ghug: :c)
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Hm... is it possible that we choose Jack's or Ennis's love and behaviour, as we would choose Jake or Heath??? :s)
Just wondering! :*(
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Actually, I think yes. Just as Heath said that he could never be Jack, I think that Jake's outgoing personality fits Jack perfectly.
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Actually, I think yes. Just as Heath said that he could never be Jack, I think that Jake's outgoing personality fits Jack perfectly.
When you put it in this way, it's logical! :^^)
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Hm... is it possible that we choose Jack's or Ennis's love and behaviour, as we would choose Jake or Heath??? :s)
Just wondering! :*(
Speaking for myself, I love Ennis and Heath in very different ways. I am not sure they are entirely connected.
Actually, I think yes. Just as Heath said that he could never be Jack, I think that Jake's outgoing personality fits Jack perfectly.
I agree here, that Heath created Ennis and no other actor would have portrayed him the same way. Similarly Jake brought to Jack something special that no one else could.
In that sense, I can see the connection between loving the character, and the actor of that role.
For me, Ennis was a reflection of something within, someone in my life, whereas Heath was a creator far away, whose character and life was an inspiration to be more than I am.
Strangely enough, the fictional character of Ennis is tangible and real to me, but the real person of Heath is an ideal, an icon, a legend, that I feel exists on a higher plane. Perhaps it's why I still have not dreamt of them. They reside in a special place.
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Andrew...I wish I had the time to read every post of yours. You are always amazing.
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Andrew...I wish I had the time to read every post of yours. You are always amazing.
Thank you, luv. :^^) You are a sweetie to keep encouraging me to write. I will message you a link to read my posts in one place. :*( You can read them all at your leisure.
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Those are beautiful insights, aintfoolin and OT. ^f^
And Thomas, I loved this:
"Well, I do admit that I love the way Jack loves. He loves with the heart in both hands, and you can take it or crush it. There is the element of deep trust and a willingness to give himself totally. I love that."
Thanks Barb. I think what speaks out to me most of all is the level of trust -- to put yourself in another person's hands. Especially one's happiness...
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Thanks for reviving the old thread, OT. :t)
Beautiful posts and sentiments, everyone. :ghug:
For me, it was Ennis who spoke to me first, and still does, everyday.
Having lived in this forum for over a year, I am learning Jack's language as well, and I hear his love now.
I don't see one as loving more than the other. Each has his own love to give, in his own way.
The beauty of the movie is seeing their love fit each other so well, and so badly with society.
Tpe's word choice is perfect...immortal love.
:t) everyone. :ghug: :c)
Thanks lance. You said it perfectly. They loved in their own different ways, and one doesn't necessarily love more than the other. And yes, the miracle of the movie is to make the love not just plausible but INEVITABLE. In the end, we don't question the love, is spite of everything that seems to go against it.
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Strangely enough, the fictional character of Ennis is tangible and real to me, but the real person of Heath is an ideal, an icon, a legend, that I feel exists on a higher plane. Perhaps it's why I still have not dreamt of them. They reside in a special place.
This speaks of great Art, and of a wonderful human being.