Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: cara1158 on Mar 02, 2006, 11:54 AM
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What if... Jack had not died?
Who wants to write a synopsis of what might have come next in the story?
I have a few wild-hair ideas but I'd be interested to hear others' thoughts first... ...
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What if... Jack had not died?
Who wants to write a synopsis of what might have come next in the story?
I have a few wild-hair ideas but I'd be interested to hear others' thoughts first... ...
If we are to believe Gyllenhaal, Jack would have tried to break up with Ennis and get things going somehow with the Texas foreman. Whether Jack would have succeeded in ultimately breaking up with Ennis is the interesting point.
As I had said in an earlier post, I cannot imagine Jack living without Ennis. Hence the only logical direction I can move my story line is to have Jack killed. Thus, I end up with roughly the same ending. :'(
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Yup. No matter how you look at it, it always ends up tragically.
The first time I saw the movie, I couldn't believe Jack was dead. Seriously. I expected him to pop up at some point and tell Ennis "Hey, everyone thinks I died, we can be together now". (I know, it doesn't make sense, but I was in serious denial there).
But now that I think about it, I don't think a happy ending was possible for them. Even when I try to come up with other scenarios for the end of the story, the outcome is always the same. It's ultimately Jack's death that made Ennis truly realize his feelings and what Jack meant to him. They would never have been together the way they should have, had Jack lived.
Well, I depressed myself now. PBS is going strong tonight. :'(
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Yup. No matter how you look at it, it always ends up tragically.
The first time I saw the movie, I couldn't believe Jack was dead. Seriously. I expected him to pop up at some point and tell Ennis "Hey, everyone thinks I died, we can be together now". (I know, it doesn't make sense, but I was in serious denial there).
But now that I think about it, I don't think a happy ending was possible for them. Even when I try to come up with other scenarios for the end of the story, the outcome is always the same. It's ultimately Jack's death that made Ennis truly realize his feelings and what Jack meant to him. They would never have been together the way they should have, had Jack lived.
Well, I depressed myself now. PBS is going strong tonight. :'(
Lilie when i first watched film, the bit where Ennis realises Alma JR left her jumper and he opens door, i was thinking 'right pleeeaaase let Jack be there please please pleeeaaassse' Would have been a pretty rubbish ending though BOOO!!!!
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Yup. No matter how you look at it, it always ends up tragically.
The first time I saw the movie, I couldn't believe Jack was dead. Seriously. I expected him to pop up at some point and tell Ennis "Hey, everyone thinks I died, we can be together now". (I know, it doesn't make sense, but I was in serious denial there).
But now that I think about it, I don't think a happy ending was possible for them. Even when I try to come up with other scenarios for the end of the story, the outcome is always the same. It's ultimately Jack's death that made Ennis truly realize his feelings and what Jack meant to him. They would never have been together the way they should have, had Jack lived.
Well, I depressed myself now. PBS is going strong tonight. :'(
Lilie when i first watched film, the bit where Ennis realises Alma JR left her jumper and he opens door, i was thinking 'right pleeeaaase let Jack be there please please pleeeaaassse' Would have been a pretty rubbish ending though BOOO!!!!
Me too!! Of course I realize it would have ruined the whole story, but damn it, I couldn't accept that he had died.
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i thought the same thing myself.."he can' be dead..." he is going to come back and there going to be happy..then I came to the realization that he did die..but if he did live I think the movie would have been very different and maybe not as good..as I read somewhere this wasn't a typical romance where two people meet, fall in love, fight/break up, and get back together at the end of the movie happy and in love..it wasn't typical..as much as it would have been nice if they did end up together I don't think the movie would have had the same effect it had..
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I was in denial too the first time. I had that same thought in my head hoping that Jack was faking his death or Ennis was just having a nightmare and they'd be happy together. To have that happen after the emotional last scene together was almost too much to bear. I had not read the story and knew pretty much nothing about BBM, other than what I had seen in the trailer, going into that first viewing. It would have been a nice ending to have them "live happily ever after", but that is not always the case in life. I don't think the story would have such an impact if we had gotten that "feel good" ending. I've read a few of the fan fictions that have the alternate happier endings and I've enjoyed that "what if", but it just makes their "reality" that much sadder to me- what could've and should've been.
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I also felt Jack would not make another trip up to Wyoming, since Randall was his new "fishing buddy" in Texas; but most of us addicted will always feel Jack would always come back to Ennis, even if he "wished I knew how to quit you" comment, was a sign of frustration, for Jack not wanting to live together all those years; he said "you remember this one thing, we could of had a good life, but you didn't want it Ennis"
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As previously and better told by others, tragedy fixes their love in the human eternity.
Otherwise, their intimate connection would probably fade away: Ennis paralyzed by his
fears, Jack in search of other loves which might give him relief to his necessities.....
It's a one way situation.We have to admit its intrinsic sadness.... :(
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Yes, Mars, we have to admit its intrinsic sadness; without this tragic pain, the story would just fade away as most other Hollywood stories that get wrapped up with superficially happy endings.....Jack is dead. Ennis will spend the rest of his life with regret, sadder but wiser, and always lonely, as his spirit wanders Brokeback Mountain......
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Yes, Mars, we have to admit its intrinsic sadness; without this tragic pain, the story would just fade away as most other Hollywood stories that get wrapped up with superficially happy endings.....Jack is dead. Ennis will spend the rest of his life with regret, sadder but wiser, and always lonely, as his spirit wanders Brokeback Mountain......
Yes, Stephen it's just so...as you describe it... :( :'(
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I agree with all of you about the intrinsic sadness of the story and the inevitability of the tragic ending.
STILL.....a girl can dream, can't she? ;D
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Yes, Ginevra
a girl can...must dream! ;D
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Yes, Mars, we have to admit its intrinsic sadness; without this tragic pain, the story would just fade away as most other Hollywood stories that get wrapped up with superficially happy endings.....Jack is dead. Ennis will spend the rest of his life with regret, sadder but wiser, and always lonely, as his spirit wanders Brokeback Mountain......
And truth be told, any other ending and we would not have Brokeback Mountain nor this forum nor all the wonderful people here. It is this great unbelievable tragedy that moves us and unites us here.
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And truth be told, any other ending and we would not have Brokeback Mountain nor this forum nor all the wonderful people here. It is this great unbelievable tragedy that moves us and unites us here.
I agree, BBBOY.
But, to be sure, we are not just unthinking suckers for tragedy. We identify with the ending because it is so real. In a sense, it is not the tragedy that gets to us. Rather, waht gets to us is the love that is portrayed with true depth and pathos.
Because of that love, the tragedy of the end becomes more compelling.
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The ending is inevitable, as in all the great tragedies. Our flaws and failings are encoded in our psyches; Ennis couldn't change what he was, Jack had to some degree accepted this and looked elsewhere, in Mexico for physical satisfaction and with the ranch foremen for companionship. By the end he was compromising and settling for less; I think he knew no other ending was possible. Ennis was stronger, or more stubborn, depending on how you read him; Jack was more needy or less faithful, more human perhaps in giving in and in trying to avoid admitting he'd done so til that last terrible meeting.
Only in the distant detached reality of Brokeback Mountain could they even approach being what they were. The ending is implicit in their first parting - that they didn't recognise that is the way we behave when confronted with what we can't bear to believe.
Love isn't always the answer, isn't always enough; that it exists even briefly is the miracle.
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Whoo, I'm glad I'm not the only one that shares this thinking. I kept thinking that Jack is going to show up and say "hey, I faked my death so I could live with you in secret and we can run off and live on BBM" Yeah, interesting thoughts in my head sometimes, lol. But as much as it tears me up that Jack dies and that they didn't end up together, I wouldn't have liked the ending of the movie as much. The truth is in the tragedy of them being torn apart like that. I'm glad it wasn't just another Hollywood movie where guy meets girl (in this case guy meets guy) guy loses guy, guy gets girl back. I'm not happy that they aren't together, but I'm happy with the movie. :)
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I think it's the inevitable "what ifs" that keep our imagination actively participating in the tragedy of BBM, and because we empathize profoundly with the characters, we begin to change our own feelings so that in our own lives we do not want to say " I wish I knew how to quit you....." but rather, How can I keep you? How can we make this work and not take it for granted.........
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Well Put Stephen - I learned alot from this movie - I have regained my sence of humanity and I look to learn how not to take things for granted...especially those that are close to me!!
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I think it's the inevitable "what ifs" that keep our imagination actively participating in the tragedy of BBM, and because we empathize profoundly with the characters, we begin to change our own feelings so that in our own lives we do not want to say " I wish I knew how to quit you....." but rather, How can I keep you? How can we make this work and not take it for granted.........
Stephen, that's beautiful.
Being totally candid here, I think Brokeback has affected the way I view my relationship with my boyfriend. We've been together 15 years and sometimes you just take it for granted after that number of years. Since I saw BBM, and since I started reading how other people had been affected by this movie, I'd like to think I've been trying a wee bit harder to keep it special. It's not big, earth-shattering things, just things like giving him a hug instead of just sitting at opposite ends of the sofa watching TV, trying not to complain about the little things that annoy me (because they're so little in the grand scheme of things) and just generally trying to show him every day that I love him. Saying it every so often helps too - and, let's face it, that's one of the biggest messages of Brokeback.
Not sure why I felt the need to share that with complete strangers but I somehow get the feeling that you guys will understand what I'm saying. Kinda glad I'm hiding behind an ambiguous user name, though :-[
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Hey NoRegns!
Looks like you and I joined this group a day apart! welcome - I can relate to what you shared above. This forum is a safe place to share. And I think ive only been here 2 - 3 days...
I need it so i have a place to talk about the experience of seeing this film - lots do not see what we all did! I guess that is what brings us all together here on our own mountain...
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The first time I saw the movie, I couldn't believe Jack was dead. Seriously. I expected him to pop up at some point and tell Ennis "Hey, everyone thinks I died, we can be together now". (I know, it doesn't make sense, but I was in serious denial there).
Lilie, I know what you mean about denial. you just don't want to believe that. When I first saw the movie I actually didn't notice the "DECEASED" stamp on the postcard. so when Ennis called lureen and she started telling him what'd happend I thought "okay, he had an accident and broke his face, he's probably in the hospital and now Ennis is going to visit him and realize that he can't live without him..." I just couldn't accept the possibility that he's dead. when Lureen said that he has drowned in his own blood, I think my heart had stopped beating.
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Keren, you reminded me of my first response to my first viewing of the film, and the same happened to me! I recall the silence of the soundtrack as the camera hovered over Ennis so we could read the card, but I didn't even notice the "Deceased" ! And so Lureen's chilly narrative of Jack's death hit me like a bolt.....I had trouble processing the implications of Jack's death and was so distraught for Ennis, I could hardly breathe; I had all these "What ifs" consuming my exhausted brain, and broken heart!
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With all the campaigns to keep BBM in the public mind and all th eposts on all the forums, I wonder whether NoReins hasn't said what really matters, that the movie's legacy ought to be to make those of us whop have responded to it live our lives a little differently as a result.If the world become a slightly more loving place, the story and movie will have done more than anyone could ever hope for.
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Jack said he wished he knew how to quit Ennis. This means he did not know how to do it, so he couldn't have and and as far as we know, he never did.That does not mean he could not leave Ennis and find other avenues. I read the fanfic Somebody New and have been able to come to some grips with the feelings I was having about BBM. I choke all the time. I haven't finished this story yet, but I am finding it easier to breathe. Fanfic never had an interest for me until I read this one.
Fafner
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Great post Fafner ^f^
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Jack said he wished he knew how to quit Ennis. This means he did not know how to do it, so he couldn't have and and as far as we know, he never did.That does not mean he could not leave Ennis and find other avenues. I read the fanfic Somebody New and have been able to come to some grips with the feelings I was having about BBM. I choke all the time. I haven't finished this story yet, but I am finding it easier to breathe. Fanfic never had an interest for me until I read this one.
Fafner
Welcome, Fafner. And I sympathize with the way you feel. I can't bring myself to watch the dvd by myself -- most especially the final half-hour of it. I do agree with your interpretation: "I wish I knew" indicates that he didn't know how. Perhpas he tried to in the end -- but died before anything became of it...
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"I wish i knew" might also be taken as an indication that Jack would like to be able to do it. "I wish I knew how to " do whatever usually suggests that the person is hoping to be told how to do it - but Jack has no way of knowing how to stop loving Ennis - no-one can tell you to fall in or out of love. Nevertheless at this point i think Jack is half-wishing that he didn;t feel as he does, because they are stuck in a cul de sac.
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"I wish i knew" might also be taken as an indication that Jack would like to be able to do it. "I wish I knew how to " do whatever usually suggests that the person is hoping to be told how to do it - but Jack has no way of knowing how to stop loving Ennis - no-one can tell you to fall in or out of love. Nevertheless at this point i think Jack is half-wishing that he didn;t feel as he does, because they are stuck in a cul de sac.
Even had Ennis agreed to meet in August, would you not think that Jack was living on borrowed time? It would have been a Phyrric victory, at the very best. He knew that he was trapped between Ennis's fear and his own heart.
What if you slept?
And what if in your sleep you dreamed?
And what if in your dream you went to
heaven and there plucked a strange and
beautiful flow'r?
And what if when you awoke, you had the
flower in your hand?
Ah! What then?
(Coleridge)
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Jack was angry mostly at his feelings for Ennis, not at Ennis himself. When he said this, after Ennis informed Jack that he couldn't make it until November, Jack wished that his feelings weren't so strong that this absence would surely affect him. I don't think he wanted to get rid of Ennis, whom he would drive fourteen hours straight for every chance he got. In this last scene together, both of them declared the hardships they had to endure to be able to set up a meeting time. Jack had sacrificed a more intimate relationship with Ennis, due to Ennis' fears, and as he felt "something I don't hardly ever get!" Ennis doesn't look for permanent jobs, so that he could be ready whenever Jack had the chance to see him. They both gave up much throughout their lives so that their encounters could manifest. In this scene it is verbalized. Yet, whatever they had done before and would continue to do, to see their way thru this relationship, it wasn't the same as when they were young and more free of responsibility. A time so perfectly depicted by the dozy embrace which Jack receives from Ennis, that finishes this scene, and we see Jack reflecting on this ideal moment of love. The most fitting word to describe how they felt and how they will always feel. :'( :'(
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I don't think Jack was angry at Ennis (like you said Ricky) but I think he was more frustrated with him.
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I don't think Jack was angry at Ennis (like you said Ricky) but I think he was more frustrated with him.
Oh yes greenfrog. I think Jack was very frustrated with Ennis. I can hear Jack say to Ennis, Damn it Ennis. I got this guy who wants ME. He approached ME. He might even be willing to live with ME. But I don't want him Ennis. I want YOU. But "you don't want it Ennis." All I want is to be happy with YOU Ennis, not one or two high altitude f**ks a year. I need YOU. I need your love. :\'(
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And here comes the tears :\'( :\'( :\'(
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That scene is just heartbreaking.
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And here comes the tears :\'( :\'( :\'(
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That scene is just heartbreaking.
*o) Congratulations on your 5000 post! Also, if Jack would have come down with his knee just a few inches to the right, Ennis would have been crying for real. ;D
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Jack was angry mostly at his feelings for Ennis, not at Ennis himself. When he said this, after Ennis informed Jack that he couldn't make it until November, Jack wished that his feelings weren't so strong that this absence would surely affect him. I don't think he wanted to get rid of Ennis, whom he would drive fourteen hours straight for every chance he got. In this last scene together, both of them declared the hardships they had to endure to be able to set up a meeting time. Jack had sacrificed a more intimate relationship with Ennis, due to Ennis' fears, and as he felt "something I don't hardly ever get!" Ennis doesn't look for permanent jobs, so that he could be ready whenever Jack had the chance to see him. They both gave up much throughout their lives so that their encounters could manifest. In this scene it is verbalized. Yet, whatever they had done before and would continue to do, to see their way thru this relationship, it wasn't the same as when they were young and more free of responsibility. A time so perfectly depicted by the dozy embrace which Jack receives from Ennis, that finishes this scene, and we see Jack reflecting on this ideal moment of love. The most fitting word to describe how they felt and how they will always feel. :'( :'(
THis is certainly an interesting way of putting it. I am sure there is more than a grain of truth to this. I do agree that Jack was angry with himself at not being able to master his emotions for Ennis. And yet, he could not help wanting what he craved for: companionship to last a lifetime.
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I don't think Jack was angry at Ennis (like you said Ricky) but I think he was more frustrated with him.
Frustrated with Ennis, and with himself, I wager...
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I don't think Jack was angry at Ennis (like you said Ricky) but I think he was more frustrated with him.
Oh yes greenfrog. I think Jack was very frustrated with Ennis. I can hear Jack say to Ennis, Damn it Ennis. I got this guy who wants ME. He approached ME. He might even be willing to live with ME. But I don't want him Ennis. I want YOU. But "you don't want it Ennis." All I want is to be happy with YOU Ennis, not one or two high altitude f**ks a year. I need YOU. I need your love. :\'(
I do agree with this subtext. So sad. :\'(
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And here comes the tears :\'( :\'( :\'(
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.squashduck.com%2Fltd%2Fbbm%2Fimages%2Fimages%2FPDVD_111_jpg.jpg&hash=bc9e55b30e0301f288f527cfb2a13eb5149f5bf0)
That scene is just heartbreaking.
*o) Congratulations on your 5000 post! Also, if Jack would have come down with his knee just a few inches to the right, Ennis would have been crying for real. ;D
OOT: indeed, congratulations, greenfrog. :)
Now about that pic: we can tell that Jack was angry with himself -- for hurting Ennis AND for not being able to change the status quo.
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Jack said he wished he knew how to quit Ennis. This means he did not know how to do it, so he couldn't have and and as far as we know, he never did.That does not mean he could not leave Ennis and find other avenues. I read the fanfic Somebody New and have been able to come to some grips with the feelings I was having about BBM. I choke all the time. I haven't finished this story yet, but I am finding it easier to breathe. Fanfic never had an interest for me until I read this one.
Fafner
It's because of the tragic ending to the film that BBM fanfic started. Somebody New is a MUST read for just about everyone here. It is beautifully written and so well-crafted in believability that it creates a seamless transition to an alternate reality of the end of the movie.
It's about healing for those of us who need it after the fiilm.
Annie Proulx evidentally said something to the effect that she was unable to envision any other ending for the characters. But we can!
Shelley
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No other ending was possible for them - they are caught up in a situation exectly like that of a classic tragedy. But wish-fulfilllment is a powerful thing...
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No other ending was possible for them - they are caught up in a situation exectly like that of a classic tragedy. But wish-fulfilllment is a powerful thing...
Very true . . .
:\'(
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Being totally candid here, I think Brokeback has affected the way I view my relationship with my boyfriend. We've been together 15 years and sometimes you just take it for granted after that number of years. Since I saw BBM, and since I started reading how other people had been affected by this movie, I'd like to think I've been trying a wee bit harder to keep it special. It's not big, earth-shattering things, just things like giving him a hug instead of just sitting at opposite ends of the sofa watching TV, trying not to complain about the little things that annoy me (because they're so little in the grand scheme of things) and just generally trying to show him every day that I love him. Saying it every so often helps too - and, let's face it, that's one of the biggest messages of Brokeback.
Not sure why I felt the need to share that with complete strangers but I somehow get the feeling that you guys will understand what I'm saying. Kinda glad I'm hiding behind an ambiguous user name, though :-[
I could have written this post myself! BBM has had the same effect on me in regard to my relationship, which just happens to be 15 years strong as well! When I first read this post, I had to double check the author to make sure that it wasn't me and that I hadn't written it previously and had just forgotten...
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That will happen a lot around here.
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That will happen a lot around here.
Amazing, nonetheless...
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That will happen a lot around here.
Amazing, nonetheless...
Yes, exactly. That is one aspect of this forum that I do treasure. The likelihood of running into like minded individuals randomly in the course of day to day life is extremely minimal. We really do owe everyone involved in creating BBM, as well as this forum, for providing us with an opportunity to connect, albeit primarily virtually...
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Jack death shocked me the first time I watched the film. I was caught completely off guard. Credit must go to J. Gyllanhall for his portrayal of this beloved character. Obviously his heart and soul went inti this role and totally captivated so many of us emotionally. I too kept hoping the postcard was a mistake, and wanted so badly for him to reappear in the movie. From that point on as Ennis was left without "closure" I was too.
If he would've lived , ( and my opinion goes back and forth) Jack would have met with Ennis again IMO, cause my own personal experience of being with some one for 20 years it's not that easy to let go. Ennis was a part of Jack,just like an arm or leg by this time.The bond was there and he would've kept trying to get a total commitment from Ennis. I understand the "wish I knew how to quit you" statement from Jack. He could'nt accept loving anyone else like he loved Ennis. Wether Ennis would have seen the light and committed to Jack? well he did try to reach him again, which tells me he at least wanted to. Maybe with all his doubts he needed Jack to convince him that they could have that sweet life.......But he never got that last chance. Devastating.
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I sometimes think of the possibility of what Jack may have done had he lived and settled down with Randal.
I think Jack would still have loved Ennis, even if he had tried to move on. Would he have found happiness with Randal in the long run?
We could have asked the same question when he married Lureen.
I would think that the greatest impediment for Jack finding happiness with Randal is that he will not forget Ennis so long as he or Ennis lives. How long would it have taken for Jack to resist seeing Ennis? Another 4 years perhaps?
No matter. I think there is something cyclic in Jack's predicament. I think he is only truly happy with Ennis, and this will be the germ that will perhaps destroy his relationship with Randal.
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Randall aint got nothin on Ennis IMO as far as Jack is concerned. Ennis has Jack"s heart and he's totally wrapped around Ennis's little finger. Yeah, Randall may have offered Jack stability in a relationship, but what if Ennis said" ok Jack I'll take you up on this sweet life business? So long Randall is what I'm thinkin. In a heartbeat. Jack"s real lovewill always be for Ennis I beleive. He's invested 20 years in him.
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Yes. I do think that, like Lureen, Randall would be set aside inevitably. There can be only one sweet life for Jack. Scraps from the banquet table are never enough...
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And here comes the tears :\'( :\'( :\'(
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That scene is just heartbreaking.
*o) Congratulations on your 5000 post! Also, if Jack would have come down with his knee just a few inches to the right, Ennis would have been crying for real. ;D
LOL!!!!
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Yes. I do think that, like Lureen, Randall would be set aside inevitably. There can be only one sweet life for Jack. Scraps from the banquet table are never enough...
:\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
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I often wonder though what Randall must have been like. He has been discussed in a number of threads. Did he indeed agree with Jack's plan? If he did, he must have had certain redeeming qualities. We know how Jack felt -- he really wanted Ennis and the relationship with Randall was born out of despair. But could Randall have been sincerely in love with Jack? I know that in some of the other discussions about Randall, he does not come out very nicely.
More tantalizing is the possibility that -- although he always loved Ennis above all -- Jack could have been really in love with Randall also. A klesser love, no doubt, but still genuine and holding true affection.
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Or of course Randall could have fallen in love with Jack, as Jack did with Ennis, only to find that while Jack cared about him, Ennis, unattainable though he was, still mattered most to Jack. Then you have yet another tragedy unfolding....
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Your right, Randall has been discussed in numerous threads. I guess that his position in the story makes him significant, being Jack's lover on the side. It's important to note that he was really the only one of Jack's lovers who had the stability and the means to give Jack an future alternative to Ennis if he so decides to do so. I could very well believe that he could've fallin in love with Jack and been happy, but Jack would'nt have been. Jack's love for Ennis would have eventually desroyed the relationship.{ Do we know if Randall even knew about Ennis}?
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I can'r see how he could NOT have known, or been about to find out, anyway. If Jack meant to take him up to Lightning Flat and had discussed it with him, at some point he''d have to mention Ennis, otherwise his father would be bound to have some snide comment to make when Randall appeared after Jack had talked so often about bringing Ennis.
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Yeah, It would be just like the ol man to rub it in Jack's face what a louse! He got the chance to show his true colors by mentioning Randall "( or another fella)" to Ennis when Ennis as visiting them after Jack's death. Ass.
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I can'r see how he could NOT have known, or been about to find out, anyway. If Jack meant to take him up to Lightning Flat and had discussed it with him, at some point he''d have to mention Ennis, otherwise his father would be bound to have some snide comment to make when Randall appeared after Jack had talked so often about bringing Ennis.
Yes, I do somehow feel that Randal must have known. But I really don't have hard evidence for this. Big what if: would Randall go through with Jack's plans if he knew that he was only second choice? I think he would have.
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If it's a question of second-best or nothing, secong-best might be prefereable. Being absolute is very romantic in theory; in reality we often have to take what we can get rather than what we'd ideally like.If Randall is as keen on Jack as he appears to be, and unless Jack tell shis father he's bringing someone else without discussing it with Randall first, he's evidently prepared to settle for something rather than nothing - and if the alternative is a life with LaShawn....
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WW your comments are always so right on. If I were Randall, ( Iknow, I know ) and I had the choice Jack or LaShawn? hmmmm .......Jack.......... Sorry, LaShawn was talking while I tried to think.
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Almost completely O/T, but can you imagine Randall leaving LaShawn, moving up to Lightning Flat, then LaSahawn pursuing him there and coming face-to-face with John Twist?
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OMI GOD! I'd pay good money to hear THAT conversation, But then again not even Paul Harvey could get the rest of that story.LMAO.
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what if this possible scenario had happened? Jack chose to live with Randall in LF and completely gave up on Ennis and ever living a full life with him, but he still loved Ennis somewhat stronger then he loved Randall(even though he enjoyed being with Randall because Randall gave him his dream. Then, about a year or two after Jack broke things off with Ennis, Ennis showed up at LF telling Jack that he loved him and couldn't go on with out him. Then going on to ask him to just leave Randall and live a full life with him with out caring what society viewed as the right thing to do.
That would give Jack a big decision to make. He could go to live with Ennis who he never truly stopped loving, or he could stay with Randall and this life that he had established and was getting used too because it was his dream. I sure Jack had to also think about what leaving Randall would do to him, and then how did he know if he could trust Ennis to stay strong with this plan because he always showed doubtfulness when they were together for those 20 years.
In the end i believe that Jack would go to Ennis even though he had doubts about it and what it would do to the other man he loved almost as deeply as he loved Ennis. I think that he would have done this because even though he had that full life with Randall it probably wasn't as good as he had always hoped for it to be, because when the picture of a perfect life first came into his mind he was leading it with Ennis. So, even though he would have had his full life he would have always had a desire or a wish for something more, that something more being Ennis.
PS: this is my first post ever. and i was just wondering how i did. (you don't have to answer if you don't want to I can see how it is kind of off the subject.)
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Great question. I wonder about this myself. "Be careful of what you wish for", if Jack went to Ennis, at his urging, would Randall be willing to let Jack go? Or would Jack after establishing a life with Randall would be so willing as to leave Randall, for what? Ennis all of sudden had a change of heart? Jack went through almost twenty years waiting for Ennis's "change of heart".
Now older, I don't know if he wanted to go through it again. Waking up each morning with Ennis wondering is this the day he lets his fears get to him? and Jack has to go through the final confrontation scene again. With Randall he knew he was wanted. Even though he'd still loves Ennis, Ennis's "low startle point" would always be lingering in his back of of mind.
Great subject, looking forward to more from you.
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This is a hard one. First of all, I'm sure that Randalll would try to remind Jack of the reason he's with him and not Ennis in the first place. I think Jack would have to have to have alot of assuance that Ennis was'nt gonna bolt again before he gave up an established sweet life with Randall. I would love to say that Jack would drop everything and go with Ennis, but Jack would have to think on this one long and hard. It would depend on how bad Ennis wants this. He'd have to prove his sincerity to Jack with more than just words, but the very fact that Ennis shows up in LF to plead his case is a big step for him. This scenario has all the implications of getting very ugly between Ennis and Randall though in the end it's Jack's hard choice alone.Somebody would loose out big time as Jack is a treasure to have around for either of these fellas. Very hard choice. Great juicy thread!
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The romantic response is to say that Jack would fly into Ennis's arms, as he did in the reunion, and they'd live happily ever after, leaving Randall to find another place for himself. In reality I don't think that would happen; sometimes there comes a time when something is over and as Rhett says to Scarlett, sometimes even the most deathless love can wear out against the intransigence of another. There's also the fact that Jack is 39 when he and Ennis play out that final confronntation, so by the time he's been divorced from Lureen, Randall has detached himself from La Shawn and they've settled in Lightning flat Jack will be in his forties, a time when one may be less inclined to believe in " all for love and the world well lost".
All this, of course, presupposes that Jack got the postcard about the November meeting but ignored it. In which case he had decided that he could neither fix it nor stand it with Ennis, and would settle for something less, but for someone he could rely on.
That said, we seem to build a lot on Randall's character and ability to maintain a lasting affection for Jack on a couple of very short scenes in the movie!
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Jack's father knew of Randall , giving insight into how Jack felt about Randall at some point. For Jack to talk of bringing Randall home to LF with him to his parentis is important and telling. But I agree that Jack was'nt a spring chicken anymore. He'd be settled into the life he wanted for a long time. Probably see Ennis as "a day late and a dollar short" but love does strange things to the human heart. I would'nt discount Jack taking Ennis back completely as in this scenario, Jack's still loves Ennis deeply. Always will.I think it would depend mostly on how emotionally invested Jack is in Randall. Would this be fair to Randall? No, but again right or wrong it's up to Jack. It's only his happiness that counts. Ennis had his chance and blew it once but could Jack really stand to see Ennis in this much pain.? Ennis is Jack's heart ...truly Forgetaboutit. . Jack would probably punch Ennis, then hug him. Needless to say, I don't know . It's a tough one.
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This is a tough one. Something for all of us to think about. To me, it all depends on what kind of relationship Jack and Randall have. If they have a relationship that neither is satisfied and condiser each other as just a partner. Then there's always a chance that Jack will go back to Ennis. I don't think Jack will love anyone else as much as Ennis. But if Jack and Randall can make each other happy, and be each other's other half, then Jack can go on without Ennis. Ennis will just be a memory of a happy moment. :s)
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Great question. I wonder about this myself. "Be careful of what you wish for", if Jack went to Ennis, at his urging, would Randall be willing to let Jack go? Or would Jack after establishing a life with Randall would be so willing as to leave Randall, for what? Ennis all of sudden had a change of heart? Jack went through almost twenty years waiting for Ennis's "change of heart".
Now older, I don't know if he wanted to go through it again. Waking up each morning with Ennis wondering is this the day he lets his fears get to him? and Jack has to go through the final confrontation scene again. With Randall he knew he was wanted. Even though he'd still loves Ennis, Ennis's "low startle point" would always be lingering in his back of of mind.
Great subject, looking forward to more from you.
That is a good point would Jack have chosen to go to Ennis the one he loved more but live in fear, or stay where he was safe, sucure, and wanted but living without his true love and wondering what if he and Ennis could've had a better life then the one he had settled for after he finally elized things with Ennis weren't ging where he wanted them to.
I guess this might be one of those unanswerable questions where the best we could do is guess at what could have happened if Jack had stayed alive.
thanks for the positive feedback. I am looking forward to posting more.
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Welcome, XoGreenEyed005Xo. And thank you for starting this topic.
Do you believe that some people are fated to love each other, whereas others learn to love one another?
Personally, I put Ennis and Jack in the first category, and Jack and Randall in the second.
Somehow I feel that although Jack would never stop loving Ennis, he would perhaps resign himself to a lesser love. After all, love and happiness are not always congruent.
Some societies have recognized the fact in the form of arranged unions -- it was a common practice to assume that love can be developed over time and that the initial absence of love does not mean that happiness and contentment cannot be achieved.
Likewise, it has been recognized that romantic/ passionate love does not always lead to happiness -- it can be destructive by reason of not being rational or temperate. At the core of this is the belief that intemperate love for anything destroys us.
Hence, I consider the possibility that Jack was resigned to lose Ennis, even though he would never stop loving him. And perhaps he would learn to love Randall and that he would find happiness. These two are not contradictory as they seem to be.
We are all capable of many loves. There are the great passions that only bring us sorrow, but we never stop loving because of it. And then there are loves that only seek contentment, if only to realize a dream.
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#$# XoGreenEyed005Xo. what a long name you choose...
That's a tough question, as many said before. It all depends for how long they've been living together allready, and the routine of real life is not like that great then life, love story Ennis and Jack had.Saying that, I think that Jack would probably not leave Randall,as he was in the sweet life he dreamed for so long, but might try to do what he did when he was married to Laureen, sneak out to quick high altitude...etc.
On the second thought, remembering the shirts, Jack would have prefer Ennis , being great love of his life, and as I was thinking, he is a spontaneous guy, look at the 14 hours driving to Riverton,after Ennis's divorce... well, all is possible ^*()
I sure would like to see them together of course!
Anyway, it all could be a begginning of a new FAN-FIC story...
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I would like to think that Jack would leave Randall anytime, if only Ennis relented and agreed to a life together. My feeling is that Ennis would perhaps never have relented -- it took Jack's death to make him realize what he missed out after all those years.
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One would hope that Jack and Ennis would get back together, but if Jack has been really happy in his new relationship, I don't believe that Jack would go back to Ennis. Although for Ennis to come to LF could be an indication that he has finally realized that he really does love Jack and wants to be with him always. I have to believe that Ennis would always have reservations about two men living together, but I believe he would tried to make it work. But Ennis has a lot of baggage that he carries around, and it would be a rough time for a while, and yes his fears could keep the relationship from ever being a truly happy one. Even though Jack loved Ennis very deeply, could Jack believe that he an Ennis could ever really be happy together. Happiness is fleeting, and if he and Randall are truly happy, then Jack really has a big decision to make. Love or happiness?
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Yncroger, You make a great point here. Love and happiness are not synonymous, although we are led to believe that by romance novels and movies geared towards naive folks. Would Jack opt for happiness instead of for love? I'm not too sure about that, but there's always that possibility. Ennis, on the other hand, wouldn't know happiness if it bit him in the hindquarters. I'm not sure he would ever put the word "love" to what it was he felt for Jack, either. And I think that is the reason he won't just move to LF with Jack early on in the game. He doesn't see the possibilities in instigating a change. It's hard to run towards something when you don't recognize what it is that's beckoning you. (I hope this makes sense to someone other than just to myself!LOL)
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Just a further note about happiness. I think that in the movie Jack was looking for happines. Wanting to live with Ennis at LF would of been a sort of happiness for Jack. So I can see Jack considering happiness over love.
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Yncroger, You make a great point here. Love and happiness are not synonymous, although we are led to believe that by romance novels and movies geared towards naive folks. Would Jack opt for happiness instead of for love? I'm not too sure about that, but there's always that possibility. Ennis, on the other hand, wouldn't know happiness if it bit him in the hindquarters. I'm not sure he would ever put the word "love" to what it was he felt for Jack, either. And I think that is the reason he won't just move to LF with Jack early on in the game. He doesn't see the possibilities in instigating a change. It's hard to run towards something when you don't recognize what it is that's beckoning you. (I hope this makes sense to someone other than just to myself!LOL)
Well, I don't think Ennis was this naive. On BBM we saw Ennis show love, not necessarily with words, but with deeds of kindness and thoughtfulness too. At times , these acts caught Jack and the viewer off guard. To Jack they were intimate expressions of a growing awareness of what Ennis was feeling for him. Ennis was never going to shout it from the rooftops that he loved Jack , but deep inside he had to finally admit it to himself.
I feel Ennis knew exactly what was beckoning him. Problem was, he just could not make the huge adjustment that this "thing" required him to do. He just was'nt ready mentally to deal with it I guess, but I think he recognized what he was feeling for Jack after a period of time past. The reunion scene was evidence of this.
Now after being married to Alma, he had something to compare it to. Clearly, Jack was the one her perferred. He was'nt emotionless completely. He just had a quiet storm going on within himself as far as his feelings went for Jack. You can see as Ennis sat anxiously by the window waiting for Jack to arrive. Nothing else mattered to Ennis at that point except holding Jack in his arms again. A chance to correct a mistake of showing Jack that their time spent on BB affected him more than words could say. Jack understood this.
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One would hope that Jack and Ennis would get back together, but if Jack has been really happy in his new relationship, I don't believe that Jack would go back to Ennis. Although for Ennis to come to LF could be an indication that he has finally realized that he really does love Jack and wants to be with him always. I have to believe that Ennis would always have reservations about two men living together, but I believe he would tried to make it work. But Ennis has a lot of baggage that he carries around, and it would be a rough time for a while, and yes his fears could keep the relationship from ever being a truly happy one. Even though Jack loved Ennis very deeply, could Jack believe that he an Ennis could ever really be happy together. Happiness is fleeting, and if he and Randall are truly happy, then Jack really has a big decision to make. Love or happiness?
Sometimes, we do prefer to never go back, if only to hold fast to memories we cherish, and emotions that we treasure deep in our hearts.
So this is why I can see if Jack would never go back to see Ennis. Perhaps he wanted to keep a memory of him intact. Especially in love.
For myself, I know that I have loved and never looked back.
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Hi sweethearts! ^f^
What if... Jack Twist, our beloved and adored dark-haired, tender blue-eyed, handsome cowboy...was still alive??? &*&
Has any of you seen this video-treasure in youtube?
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=_Bv2WOQn4ng&feature=related
I know this is not fair to the actual story but, it's done sooo good to my aching heart... <^(
Iria "Del Mar".
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Hi sweethearts! ^f^
What if... Jack Twist, our beloved and adored dark-haired, tender blue-eyed, handsome cowboy...was still alive??? &*&
Has any of you seen this video-treasure in youtube?
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=_Bv2WOQn4ng&feature=related
I know this is not fair to the actual story but, it's done sooo good to my aching heart... <^(
Iria "Del Mar".
Welcome Iria! :)
I would want to check out this youtube clip right now, but I an't access youtube from work, so I will have to wait until I get out in the evening.
But I encourage other memebers who can view it right now to comment on it -- it will give me an idea right now of what is in the clip. :)
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Oh,my¡ this is the happy ending all the Brokies would have liked;everything would be a Jack's fake to run away from everything what was his life until that moment.And,of course,begin a new one close to his loved Ennis,very far away from what had been their environment...Ah,very nice,indeed¡ ;) Even I wrote a slight outline of an story just like this,where Old Newsome had paid Jack to quit his wife and child because he knew his secret... :i
But,we must admit something we've talked about several times;with a conventional happy ending,wouldn't the story lose its dramatic strenght and became an ordinary love story similar to Sissi saga or stuff?And also its plea against intolerance and narrow-mindness would lose efectivity?.I think so,maybe because human beings always learn from negative events,never from good ones;look at Ennis case,for example... :c) But I confess I'd like very,very much to watch a silly and shabby happy ending-even with Jack and Ennis singing,now that an opera is going to be made¡ ;D -.
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i commented on this video a few days ago... if only things had really turned out like that...
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I hadn't seen this video before but it left me smiling. Of course I'd never change the OS but I do like being able to see/read alternatives as an "escape" sometimes. And it was really nicely done- just seeing them having that sweet life.
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Hi sweethearts! ^f^
What if... Jack Twist, our beloved and adored dark-haired, tender blue-eyed, handsome cowboy...was still alive??? &*&
Has any of you seen this video-treasure in youtube?
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=_Bv2WOQn4ng&feature=related
I know this is not fair to the actual story but, it's done sooo good to my aching heart... <^(
Iria "Del Mar".
I can understand where you are all coming from, but this just doesn't do it for me. Although I did find myself thinking that if they had just managed another 10 years maybe it would have been ok for them to at last be together. But as most of you have said, then the whole story just becomes very mundane and rather pointless. It is the way that they conducted their relationship that made it so special, frustrating for Jack, yes, but had they been "like this always", then they'd just be like any other boring old couple. The fact that they saw each other so little meant that every minute together was intense and treasured, and they had no time to take each other for granted. Although I hate to say it, there really can be no other ending, it has to be tragic to make it all so beautiful, and this was perhaps the only way Ennis was ever going to be jolted into realizing his true feelings.
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I agree Desperate...I don't think BBM would have had the same effect if the ending was happy. I doubt if we would still be discussing it and having PBS 2 1/2 yrs. later. Also, the death of Heath magnifies the sadness. :\'(
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Just saw the video, and I think it worked. We know it's not what happened, but there was some emotional release in seeing a different ending.
And the sound track worked just as well for an escape as for a tragedy. The music is kind of strange that way - did anybody else notice it is both sad AND triumphant? As if, in the film, they lost, but love won?
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I can understand where you are all coming from, but this just doesn't do it for me. Although I did find myself thinking that if they had just managed another 10 years maybe it would have been ok for them to at last be together. But as most of you have said, then the whole story just becomes very mundane and rather pointless. It is the way that they conducted their relationship that made it so special, frustrating for Jack, yes, but had they been "like this always", then they'd just be like any other boring old couple. The fact that they saw each other so little meant that every minute together was intense and treasured, and they had no time to take each other for granted. Although I hate to say it, there really can be no other ending, it has to be tragic to make it all so beautiful, and this was perhaps the only way Ennis was ever going to be jolted into realizing his true feelings.
Welcome desperatehousewife!
And truth be told, I love the story as is -- tragic though it may be. And yes, I had discussed in an old thread that given the circumstances and the character of the protagonists, there probably is no other ending. But that is what makes all this so beautiful and deep.
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I can understand where you are all coming from, but this just doesn't do it for me. Although I did find myself thinking that if they had just managed another 10 years maybe it would have been ok for them to at last be together. But as most of you have said, then the whole story just becomes very mundane and rather pointless. It is the way that they conducted their relationship that made it so special, frustrating for Jack, yes, but had they been "like this always", then they'd just be like any other boring old couple. The fact that they saw each other so little meant that every minute together was intense and treasured, and they had no time to take each other for granted. Although I hate to say it, there really can be no other ending, it has to be tragic to make it all so beautiful, and this was perhaps the only way Ennis was ever going to be jolted into realizing his true feelings.
yes you are right this had to be the ending
this had to be it otherwise there would be no messages in the story. It wouldnt teach us to make the most of everything and take nothing for granted if it was happily ever after as there would have been no struggles in their relationship and Ennis wouldnt have had the shock of Jack dying to make him realise his true feelings then we wouldnt have seen what happens if you dont grab every opporunity in life and hold onto it. It had to be the sad ending to show us the struggle that some have in the world just because they love the same sex and makes us realise (if we dont already) that some people in the world are cruel and not understanding and this film shows how love is something felt by EVERYONE and its a beautiful thing. I have read in a book i have BBM the impact of a film, many a story how someones been either against or not understood gay love but then watching this film and it moving them so much they now see it all in a different light. The way the film is, is what has changed peoples lives for the better even if the ending is VERY sad. But it has dont a positive thing, made us change our lives for the better. So it isnt all bad. ^f^
Just saw the video, and I think it worked. We know it's not what happened, but there was some emotional release in seeing a different ending.
And the sound track worked just as well for an escape as for a tragedy. The music is kind of strange that way - did anybody else notice it is both sad AND triumphant? As if, in the film, they lost, but love won?
i see what you mean about the music...it does kinda work but im so used to associating it with the way the film really goes its not easy to see it as going with a positive ending...i do see what you mean though! the video is a cute idea if you want a change i guess hehe :)
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I try to find the right words but it's difficult to me to explain in english :i
If Jack was not killed, the story would probably follow the same way than in the movie : Ennis always shared between desire and guilt, and Jack always unsatisfied and sad. Jack's death is the only way to show at Ennis how much it's to late and how much he has wasted his life :( :\'(.
But, it's another possiblility : Jack and Ennis spend the rest of their life together in a ranch :c) That's what some brokies tell in "fan fictions" ;)..;A happy end ^f^...But in real life, happy ends are rares.
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I try to find the right words but it's difficult to me to explain in english :i
If Jack was not killed, the story would probably follow the same way than in the movie : Ennis always shared between desire and guilt, and Jack always unsatisfied and sad. Jack's death is the only way to show at Ennis how much it's to late and how much he has wasted his life :( :\'(.
But, it's another possiblility : Jack and Ennis spend the rest of their life together in a ranch :c) That's what some brokies tell in "fan fictions" ;)..;A happy end ^f^...But in real life, happy ends are rares.
Not to sound too cynical, but I tend to agree that happy endings are indeed rare in real life. But we can put this aside and point out that the ending of BBM is not something contrived or artificial -- we arrive at it based on the characterization of both Ennis and jack, and perhaps some people would even say that such an end would have been inevitable, given the characterizations. And I certainly agree that Jack's death was the only way by which -- ironically -- Ennis came to a full realization of what love truly is.
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Annie said that that was the only way things could end, there was not other ending possible for Ennis and Jack.
But I don't agree with brokies who said that a happy ending would be artificial, not special and they'd just be like any other boring old couple.....Are happy couples boring just because they are happy? I know that BBM is perfect the way it is, and I'd change NOTHING there; in fact I think it's a masterpiece, a work of art. But I don't think that happy endings are bad or are not meaningful. What about Shelter, Latter Days, La Vita e Bella, etc? Happy endings has a lot of things to teach us too. Life can be bad and complicate but not always, friends. We need hope and faith, we have to have hope and faith. So we have to believe in happy endings, we have to believe that sometimes dreams come true. Without hope men wouldn't have flight, had not being free from slavery, had not visited the moon. Happy endings are not so rare in this life. People fight to reach their dreams, and while there's a human being out there fighting, happy endings are possible.
I don't think that people had not been so moved by BBM is there had been a happy ending. Just look at the 130 pages of posts we wrote about Shelter, or just look at those thousands people who are reading BBM fics since January 2006 looking for a happy ending, needing to read a better ending for Ennis and Jack, wishing that one of those happy endings could be true, swooning when they read about Ennis and Jack being together forever!! Imagine a man, fighting for his dreams over 20 years, going through pain and sadness, carrying loneliness like the most heavy burden...I bet you'd cry; and then after all those troubles and misery, he got what he needed all his life so much. Just imagine that, and now don't tell me that you'd not cry in that very moment when he reaches his dream, when he smiles so wide, and he's happy and safe at last. I bet you'd be smiling through tears. A happy ending can move us as much as a sad one. We need joy, that's too damn beautiful.
What I'm trying to say is that BBM is perfect as it is; no way it could end in another way. But I just DON'T believe that happy endings can't teach us anything. Life teach us a lot of things too when we are happy. That give us strength to go on. We learn when we have a child, when we fall in love, when we meet that special friend, when we feel loved and safe. We learn from love, and love can bring us joy, don't forget it. We were so moved at the end of BBM not because his sad ending, but because Ennis at last found what was love. BBM was about love not about sadness, even when that hurts like hell.
That's only my humble opinion. Thanks!! ^f^
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&**) Great thoughts, Tammy!! :c)
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Annie said that that was the only way things could end, there was not other ending possible for Ennis and Jack.
But I don't agree with brokies who said that a happy ending would be artificial, not special and they'd just be like any other boring old couple.....Are happy couples boring just because they are happy? I know that BBM is perfect the way it is, and I'd change NOTHING there; in fact I think it's a masterpiece, a work of art. But I don't think that happy endings are bad or are not meaningful. What about Shelter, Latter Days, La Vita e Bella, etc? Happy endings has a lot of things to teach us too. Life can be bad and complicate but not always, friends. We need hope and faith, we have to have hope and faith. So we have to believe in happy endings, we have to believe that sometimes dreams come true. Without hope men wouldn't have flight, had not being free from slavery, had not visited the moon. Happy endings are not so rare in this life. People fight to reach their dreams, and while there's a human being out there fighting, happy endings are possible.
I don't think that people had not been so moved by BBM is there had been a happy ending. Just look at the 130 pages of posts we wrote about Shelter, or just look at those thousands people who are reading BBM fics since January 2006 looking for a happy ending, needing to read a better ending for Ennis and Jack, wishing that one of those happy endings could be true, swooning when they read about Ennis and Jack being together forever!! Imagine a man, fighting for his dreams over 20 years, going through pain and sadness, carrying loneliness like the most heavy burden...I bet you'd cry; and then after all those troubles and misery, he got what he needed all his life so much. Just imagine that, and now don't tell me that you'd not cry in that very moment when he reaches his dream, when he smiles so wide, and he's happy and safe at last. I bet you'd be smiling through tears. A happy ending can move us as much as a sad one. We need joy, that's too damn beautiful.
What I'm trying to say is that BBM is perfect as it is; no way it could end in another way. But I just DON'T believe that happy endings can't teach us anything. Life teach us a lot of things too when we are happy. That give us strength to go on. We learn when we have a child, when we fall in love, when we meet that special friend, when we feel loved and safe. We learn from love, and love can bring us joy, don't forget it. We were so moved at the end of BBM not because his sad ending, but because Ennis at last found what was love. BBM was about love not about sadness, even when that hurts like hell.
That's only my humble opinion. Thanks!! ^f^
Hello Tammy.
I don't think a happy ending are necessarily artificial. But IMO, given the characters of Ennis and Jack as outlined by Proulx and as developed in the movie, it would seem contrived to bring a deus ex machina in the end. A happy ending would indeed be possible if we tweak the characterization abit -- that would mean that Ennis would have had to have been developed a bit "softer", for example, to show that a change of heart did come about. IN the end, it is up to the skill of the writer to make these subtle tweaks in characterization in order to make an alrernative BBM ending workable.
It is good that you take "Shelter" for an example. Notice that the entire movie revolved around Zach's gradual discovery and acceptance of who he really was and what he wanted to do. You could compare him to the Ennis character in a very superficial sense, but we notice immediately the vast differences between them. Moreover, the setting of 21st Century California is vastly different from 1960s Wyoming. In the context of the former, we would think it unnatural if Zach's friends and sister DID make such a big deal about his emerging gayness. The conflict in the entire story was about Zach coming to terms with himself and not coming to terms with the world and people around him.
I would say that given how the story of "Shelter" was developed, it would be contrived IMO to put a tragic end to the finale. Would you consider writers who would want to create an alternative ending to Shelter? An ending that would be unbelievably tragic? I doubt that they would succeed, if they stay true to the characterization and background of the original movie.
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Hey Thomas, friend, I totally agree with you!!! I've never said the contrary!! If you re read my post you'll see that I love BBM as it is and I think that no other ending is possible!!! BBM is perfect, and I agree with Annie when she said that there was no other possible ending for Ennis and Jack.
I only wanted to let you know that I don't think that happy endings are not powerful. I was not talking necessarily about BBM, but about happy endings in general!!! That's why I talked about Shelter and Latter Days, like saying that happy stories have a true deep strong meaning too, and they can teach us a lot of things too.
Do you think that only tragic endings are possible if we want to learn something about life and love? I know you don't, right? ^f^
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Hey Thomas, friend, I totally agree with you!!! I've never said the contrary!! If you re read my post you'll see that I love BBM as it is and I think that no other ending is possible!!! BBM is perfect, and I agree with Annie when she said that there was no other possible ending for Ennis and Jack.
I only wanted to let you know that I don't think that happy endings are not powerful. I was not talking necessarily about BBM, but about happy endings in general!!! That's why I talked about Shelter and Latter Days, like saying that happy stories have a true deep strong meaning too, and they can teach us a lot of things too.
Do you think that only tragic endings are possible if we want to learn something about life and love? I know you don't, right? ^f^
Hello Tammy. :)
And I too agree that you can write something that would give BBM a happy ending -- one just has to tweak the characterization and add/subract a few things to get it. The themes are universal, and we can reshape them in such a way as to make sense. :)
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Lilie, I know what you mean about denial. you just don't want to believe that. When I first saw the movie I actually didn't notice the "DECEASED" stamp on the postcard. so when Ennis called lureen and she started telling him what'd happend I thought "okay, he had an accident and broke his face, he's probably in the hospital and now Ennis is going to visit him and realize that he can't live without him..." I just couldn't accept the possibility that he's dead. when Lureen said that he has drowned in his own blood, I think my heart had stopped beating.
I did notice the deceased stamped on the postcard and it was like I saw it right when Ennis did and I could feel his heart sink right along with mine.
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I did notice the deceased stamped on the postcard and it was like I saw it right when Ennis did and I could feel his heart sink right along with mine.
same for me :(
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I did notice the deceased stamped on the postcard and it was like I saw it right when Ennis did and I could feel his heart sink right along with mine.
Welcome, rimasworld.
For me, it took a split second for the words on the postcard to register when I first saw the movie.
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I did notice the deceased stamped on the postcard and it was like I saw it right when Ennis did and I could feel his heart sink right along with mine.
I froze when I saw the postcard :(
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I just found this thread, and it's strange, I don't related to anyone else's comments here. ??? I must be really really odd... (t)
First of all, I never yearned for an alternative happy ending, although I would welcome it, if there was a good explanation consistent with the story. Somehow, I can't imagine Jake faking his own death. So the video just didn't do anything for me. I still like it, as I would any other Brokeback Mountain video.
I was surprised to see the postcard scene right off the bat...and the phone call. Those are the most powerful scenes for me that usually have me in tears by the time I reach them. Yet, watching those clips clear eyed and unemotional for a change, I notice Ennis' face more clearly, and the shock as he froze starring at the post card, the confusion on the phone, and grief as Lureen related Jack's last moments...It's good to be able to see Heath's masterful performance more clearly.
Thank you.
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I also never yearned particularly for a happy ending. Is it human to admit that it is tragedy that grabs hold of one's heart?
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I also never yearned particularly for a happy ending. Is it human to admit that it is tragedy that grabs hold of one's heart?
I love Shelter and Gone, but not Forgotten. I LOVE happy endings. <^(
It is not so much that I don't want a happy ending, tpe.
It's just that the death of Jack in the movie was so final and powerful, that I cannot in all fairness, find a satisfactory way to reconcile a happy ending, except through Ennis' transformation and happy life after Lightning Flat. That's my happy ending.
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I think I understand, lance. Whereas you love happy ending, you don't go out of the way to force it upon a story. To each its own, I suppose. The ending must have a consistency and integrity with the narrative.
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In spite of our wishes,the ending has a strenght and a...lesson? that a happy ending wouldn't apport.It's what I meant in my former post from a couple of months ago.Even if I love happy endings...
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I think I understand, lance. Whereas you love happy ending, you don't go out of the way to force it upon a story. To each its own, I suppose. The ending must have a consistency and integrity with the narrative.
In spite of our wishes,the ending has a strenght and a...lesson? that a happy ending wouldn't apport.It's what I meant in my former post from a couple of months ago.Even if I love happy endings...
Exactly, tpe, mpj, I'd love to have a happy ending for Ennis and Jack, but then I'd miss out on the powerful and in many ways for me personally, a very comforting ending. I know most people find the ending extremely uncomfortable...suffocating, I believe was the word. However, for whatever strange reason, I found comfort, and you said, mpg, a kind of quiet spiritual strength in Ennis' stoic acceptance of his situation. I know many of you will disagree, but that's my take on the ending of the movie.
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Sometimes, I think that there is no explicit lesson in the end, although the implicit message is there for all to see.
The difficult thing about the ending of BBM the movie is that there is barely a hint of catharsis. Yes, there is a degree of comfort in the end, but the feeling of sheer loneliness is simply overwhelming at times. It is as if we remain unsure of redemption in any form... I think this is what rankles with many of us here, especially those who desire a happier ending...
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Sometimes, I think that there is no explicit lesson in the end, although the implicit message is there for all to see.
The difficult thing about the ending of BBM the movie is that there is barely a hint of catharsis. Yes, there is a degree of comfort in the end, but the feeling of sheer loneliness is simply overwhelming at times. It is as if we remain unsure of redemption in any form... I think this is what rankles with many of us here, especially those who desire a happier ending...
Like I said, I know I am in the minority, perhaps even the oddball of one, who felt that there was redemption, that there was love in Ennis' life after Jack, in the form of love in his daughters, with Jack's Ma. JMO and we don't have to agree.
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Well,in this case and when I was speaking about lesson -which I put with a question mark,because it could be ambiguous-I meant that the ending could teach us to love,simply.To take profit of every moment we have with the beloved person without denying the reality,because it'd be to deny ourselves.To be true to ourselves and to this person; to live every single moment as the last one;to fight for what we wish,no matter the efforts;TO BE OURSELVES,in short.And I meant also that a happy ending wouldn't have this sense of redemption in Ennis figure that,unluckily,now has.Even if,I repeat,I would like a happy,conventional and loving ending...
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:h) I just don't think that we would still be obsessed after all this time if the ending was a happy one. JMO
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i agree atalley
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Like I said, I know I am in the minority, perhaps even the oddball of one, who felt that there was redemption, that there was love in Ennis' life after Jack, in the form of love in his daughters, with Jack's Ma. JMO and we don't have to agree.
I don't think this is oddball, lance. I do think the intent of the film-makers was to imply some form of redemption.
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Well,in this case and when I was speaking about lesson -which I put with a question mark,because it could be ambiguous-I meant that the ending could teach us to love,simply.To take profit of every moment we have with the beloved person without denying the reality,because it'd be to deny ourselves.To be true to ourselves and to this person; to live every single moment as the last one;to fight for what we wish,no matter the efforts;TO BE OURSELVES,in short.And I meant also that a happy ending wouldn't have this sense of redemption in Ennis figure that,unluckily,now has.Even if,I repeat,I would like a happy,conventional and loving ending...
I agree with this, certainly. I think the tragedy such as this shocks us into such as sense of realization. This is indeed what I meant by an clear implicit lesson.
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:h) I just don't think that we would still be obsessed after all this time if the ending was a happy one. JMO
i agree atalley
The same with me!
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:h) I just don't think that we would still be obsessed after all this time if the ending was a happy one. JMO
I agree too¡ Unlucky ending,that never completed love,has shocked us fairly more than an happy one,being as much nice love story as it could be even... <^(
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I agree too¡ Unlucky ending,that never completed love,has shocked us fairly more than an happy one,being as much nice love story as it could be even... <^(
I think this is wht the Ancients had placed tragedy above comedy. Tragedy has the power to move in a way that comedy has the power to see our own failings and laugh at them. Whereas the latter is almost always gentle (if we are to ignore biting, bitter satire), the former can dislocate and purge us.
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I think this is wht the Ancients had placed tragedy above comedy. Tragedy has the power to move in a way that comedy has the power to see our own failings and laugh at them. Whereas the latter is almost always gentle (if we are to ignore biting, bitter satire), the former can dislocate and purge us.
I suppose that comedy can teach us to laugh at our failings,as you say,in a more passive way; whereas,tragedy can force us to make a further step,in a more active way,then...As they say,we never learn from the good things,but from the bad ones.
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I think this is wht the Ancients had placed tragedy above comedy. Tragedy has the power to move in a way that comedy has the power to see our own failings and laugh at them. Whereas the latter is almost always gentle (if we are to ignore biting, bitter satire), the former can dislocate and purge us.
I never did understand that in English class. Now that you mentioned it again, and I have the personal experience to compare the two, I must say, those Ancients sure were smart and wise.
Tragedy, when it touches the soul like Brokeback Mountain does, has more power than any comedy, fore sure. And when it transforms lives, whether by purging the soul through catharsis or by example, as in the life of Ennis, then it is also more noble than a gentle comedy. I think, tragedy stirs more powerful emotions than comedy, and has stronger power to change us.
Thanks, tpe.
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I suppose that comedy can teach us to laugh at our failings,as you say,in a more passive way; whereas,tragedy can force us to make a further step,in a more active way,then...As they say,we never learn from the good things,but from the bad ones.
There is no way around tragedy -- it stares us in the face. It is unrelenting and unforgiving.
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I never did understand that in English class. Now that you mentioned it again, and I have the personal experience to compare the two, I must say, those Ancients sure were smart and wise.
Tragedy, when it touches the soul like Brokeback Mountain does, has more power than any comedy, fore sure. And when it transforms lives, whether by purging the soul through catharsis or by example, as in the life of Ennis, then it is also more noble than a gentle comedy. I think, tragedy stirs more powerful emotions than comedy, and has stronger power to change us.
Thanks, tpe.
It can certainly move us in a way that can purge us -- if not sometimes kill. jack's death and Ennis's pain is not totally without redemption. But it sears the heart, and like a burning brand, we have no choice but to remember.
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Thomas...you said that perfectly.
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Thanks atalley. Is it human nature that we invariably remember the painful moments of our lives more than the happy ones?
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I think you're mostly right about that. It's the difficult times in our lives where we become stronger. (Not that I don't think of all the great times too, though).
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I know this is another silly what if….But I’ve thought about this several times now…and it’s making me cry and I need to talk about it.
You know how much Jack risked, the things he did to be with Ennis; you know about his endless beyond strong and constant love, how much he hoped and dreamt all his life. You know he did the first move in FNIT; he sent that postcard after four years apart; he was not angry for the punch; he drove 14 hours to be with Ennis all those years and he drove the same distance all happy like a boy without a second thought when he learned about Ennis divorce; he talked about Ennis to his parents; he said to Lureen that his favourite place in the world was BBM; he wanted his ashes there; he kept the shirts for 20 years. But you also know that he started to drink a lot because of his despair and hurt and sadness; you know he went Mexico and he was with Randall because of those same feelings of bitterness and loneliness…You know he became careless because his dreams were shattered with those Ennis no. Jack was passionate and devoted. His world moved around Ennis. Ennis was EVERYTHING for him. So sometimes I wonder what Jack had done if Ennis had died before him…
Ennis was broken, beaten and extremely sad, but he was a stoic, he learned things, painful but true things with Jack’s death, and also he found beautiful things like Jack loved him for real all those years. But what about Jack? Jack didn’t have shirts to find…..not someone telling him that Ennis favourite place was BBM, not Ennis parents saying to him that Ennis talked a lot about him, not even some imaginary Ennis diary saying “hey, I always wanted to live with you and I loved you all the time”. Jack was already a wreck after that last time they met; you can see that in his face the Dozy Embrace flashback.....
What do you think Jack had done when he found about Ennis death? Had he gone to WY to talk to Junior? Had he said to her who really was him for Ennis? Or who was really Ennis for him? Had he asked for Ennis ashes (if Ennis had wanted to be incinerated…)? Had he got those ashes to BBM? Had he lived with Randall after that (I don’t believe that not even for a second!!!) or had he been unable to be with another man? I know for sure that he had been so shattered, so hurting, so sad, that I bet he had gone almost crazy….And I think he had been unable to touch Randall again. I think he had felt so so guilty for what he did, for what he said to Ennis last time (I wish I know how to quit you), for never saying to Ennis “I love you” (Even if he did that because Ennis was not ready to hear that; but you know Jack: he could feel guilty for things he was not responsible for). I can see him crying like a baby in front of Lureen, in front of Junior, in front of anyone….Do you think he had drunk to death? Do you think he had tried to forget with some unknown guy, being all risky and careless till he found the death too?
I know I’m being all nasty here, but I’m not asking this for curiosity….I’m a Jack girl, and for some strange reason I can not see him facing his lover’s death the same way that Ennis (and I know Ennis was devastated). I see him crying, screaming, crazy, drunk….punched and wishing death. His dreams were dead long time ago, but now the wonderful human being that made him have those dreams was dead too, so what he had left? He spent his whole life dreaming to live with Ennis, being more and more bitter because he couldn't have him.....You know how much that hurt Jack and made him suffer...so imagine that suddenly he can't even have him 3 or 4 times a year...He'll never ever be with his love again... :\'( :\'( :\'(
Sorry if this is too dark or inappropriate. I’m having a Jack day..I’m sad and I’ve cry a lot reading about him, and just right one minute ago I saw a pic of his face in the DE scene…..full of devotion to Ennis, so so so full of love, that I thought:“It’s impossible for this man to loose his Ennis. He never gave up, he never stopped loving…He would have gone in November, I just know that”, so suddenly that question was there again… "God, what this man totally in love had done without Ennis?” Just thinking about it hurts like hell. :\'( :\'( :\'(
Thank you for reading this rambling. ^f^ Sometimes I need that.
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Thanks Tammy. You know, there is a grain of truth to what you say here. Gyllenhaal pretty much admitted it when he said that he believed Ennis to be more faithful than Jack.
Still, I wonder whether Ennis's death would also have changed Jack fundamentally. Would we have expected it from Ennis, had Jack not died? Everything we see about Ennis beforehand seemed to indicate otherwise -- no? And yet the abiding faithfulness surmounted everything in the end. Perhaps even his own fears...
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Aw Thomas, that made me teary :\'(
:ghug: Tammy
I'm not sure what I think Jack would do. Would he be in Wyoming as soon as possible? I believe so and I do think that much like he faced Aguirre the next summer, he would have faced Alma and the girls to find out and pay his respects, carry out any wishes or do his damndest to do so. I'm of the belief that Jack was murdered and I think that after the final confrontation that Jack got reckless, mainly stemming from depression, and that led to his death. In that scene they both admit that they can't stand it, but there was no "fix" either: "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved." And Jack was clinging to the memory of a time that once held so much promise. So in saying all of that, I think that almost the same thing would have eventually played out for Jack. I don't think that that is implying that he is weak, Jack was not weak, but that the love inside of him was so strong and Ennis's death would have taken Jack with it.
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Aw Thomas, that made me teary :\'(
:ghug: Tammy
I'm not sure what I think Jack would do. Would he be in Wyoming as soon as possible? I believe so and I do think that much like he faced Aguirre the next summer, he would have faced Alma and the girls to find out and pay his respects, carry out any wishes or do his damndest to do so. I'm of the belief that Jack was murdered and I think that after the final confrontation that Jack got reckless, mainly stemming from depression, and that led to his death. In that scene they both admit that they can't stand it, but there was no "fix" either: "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved." And Jack was clinging to the memory of a time that once held so much promise. So in saying all of that, I think that almost the same thing would have eventually played out for Jack. I don't think that that is implying that he is weak, Jack was not weak, but that the love inside of him was so strong and Ennis's death would have taken Jack with it.
Thank you so much, Thomas, Michelle. ^f^
I agree with every word you said, Michelle. I've always thought that Jack had a depression after all those years hoping and getting only "no" and dissapointment in return. That's why he drank so much, that's why he was bitter. I agree with Jack clinging to the memory of a time that held so much promise (the DE).....And god you made me cry bad with your last line, but I know it's totally true and I agree even if that breaks my heart: "...the love inside of him was so strong and Ennis's death would have taken Jack with it." :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
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Thanks Michelle and Tammy. :)
Memories die hard -- as much as dreams die hard.
Had Jack not died, perhaps the dream of a life with Ennis would have died, even as the love and the memories would have continued to live on. His death certainly put an end to the dream of the sweet life, but we know that a newly enlightened Ennis will never forget.
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You know how much Jack risked, the things he did to be with Ennis; you know about his endless beyond strong and constant love, how much he hoped and dreamt all his life. You know he did the first move in FNIT; he sent that postcard after four years apart; he was not angry for the punch; he drove 14 hours to be with Ennis all those years and he drove the same distance all happy like a boy without a second thought when he learned about Ennis divorce; he talked about Ennis to his parents; he said to Lureen that his favourite place in the world was BBM; he wanted his ashes there; he kept the shirts for 20 years. But you also know that he started to drink a lot because of his despair and hurt and sadness; you know he went Mexico and he was with Randall because of those same feelings of bitterness and loneliness…You know he became careless because his dreams were shattered with those Ennis no. Jack was passionate and devoted. His world moved around Ennis. Ennis was EVERYTHING for him. So sometimes I wonder what Jack had done if Ennis had died before him…
Tammy, I just have to say I love how you described Jack's devotion here.
I'm not sure what I think Jack would do. Would he be in Wyoming as soon as possible? I believe so and I do think that much like he faced Aguirre the next summer, he would have faced Alma and the girls to find out and pay his respects, carry out any wishes or do his damndest to do so. I'm of the belief that Jack was murdered and I think that after the final confrontation that Jack got reckless, mainly stemming from depression, and that led to his death. In that scene they both admit that they can't stand it, but there was no "fix" either: "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved." And Jack was clinging to the memory of a time that once held so much promise. So in saying all of that, I think that almost the same thing would have eventually played out for Jack. I don't think that that is implying that he is weak, Jack was not weak, but that the love inside of him was so strong and Ennis's death would have taken Jack with it.
I've never thought about this possibility before, but when i read this I have to agree. :\'(
Some very insightful posts here. Thank you.
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I agree with keren. I it wonderful to read these insightful posts after not having seen them for a while.
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Thank-you, Tammy.
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Yup. No matter how you look at it, it always ends up tragically.
The first time I saw the movie, I couldn't believe Jack was dead. Seriously. I expected him to pop up at some point and tell Ennis "Hey, everyone thinks I died, we can be together now". (I know, it doesn't make sense, but I was in serious denial there).
But now that I think about it, I don't think a happy ending was possible for them. Even when I try to come up with other scenarios for the end of the story, the outcome is always the same. It's ultimately Jack's death that made Ennis truly realize his feelings and what Jack meant to him. They would never have been together the way they should have, had Jack lived.
Well, I depressed myself now. PBS is going strong tonight. :'(
I felt the same way too!! I was so shocked when I saw the word 'Deceased' on the postcard. I thought someone else had died. I only realized it was Jack when Ennis made that phone call to Lureen. Even then, I still didn't want to believe that Jack had died. I thought it was Lureen's idea of keeping Jack away from Ennis or that Jack had moved out. Anything but not the fact that Jack had died. It was so painful for me to admit that Jack had finally died when Ennis went to collect Jack's ashes from his parents. If that scene wasn't there, I still wouldn't believe that Jack had died but the most painful moment was when Ennis held the shirt Jack wore on the last day they were on Brokeback Mountain. My tears were uncontrollable then.
It's true that if Jack hadn't died, Ennis would never truly appreciate how much he loved him but if Jack had broken up with Ennis, it would have the same effect. The main point is making Ennis realize how important Jack is to him right? Maybe Jack could break up with Ennis and move to Mexico. Ennis drops by for a visit and saw how happy Jack is with his new partner and his heart aches for Jack but he wouldn't admit it. As usual he would just keep his silence until Jack's partner proposes (is that possible?) to Jack and he accepts. Ennis realizes that he would lose him forever if he didn't act so he fights for Jack's love and its a happy ending. I just love happy endings...
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I felt the same way too!! I was so shocked when I saw the word 'Deceased' on the postcard. I thought someone else had died. I only realized it was Jack when Ennis made that phone call to Lureen. Even then, I still didn't want to believe that Jack had died. I thought it was Lureen's idea of keeping Jack away from Ennis or that Jack had moved out. Anything but not the fact that Jack had died. It was so painful for me to admit that Jack had finally died when Ennis went to collect Jack's ashes from his parents. If that scene wasn't there, I still wouldn't believe that Jack had died but the most painful moment was when Ennis held the shirt Jack wore on the last day they were on Brokeback Mountain. My tears were uncontrollable then.
It's true that if Jack hadn't died, Ennis would never truly appreciate how much he loved him but if Jack had broken up with Ennis, it would have the same effect. The main point is making Ennis realize how important Jack is to him right? Maybe Jack could break up with Ennis and move to Mexico. Ennis drops by for a visit and saw how happy Jack is with his new partner and his heart aches for Jack but he wouldn't admit it. As usual he would just keep his silence until Jack's partner proposes (is that possible?) to Jack and he accepts. Ennis realizes that he would lose him forever if he didn't act so he fights for Jack's love and its a happy ending. I just love happy endings...
Thanks for sharing this, lauren. Interesting: your initial impression was that the postcard was Lureen's doing...
And I agree that whether jack died or simply broke off the relationship, the effect would have been the same. Some kind of shock was needed to lift Ennis out of the rut, so to speak...
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Thanks for sharing this, lauren. Interesting: your initial impression was that the postcard was Lureen's doing...
And I agree that whether jack died or simply broke off the relationship, the effect would have been the same. Some kind of shock was needed to lift Ennis out of the rut, so to speak...
Ennis was already in a pretty bad condition after their last meeting. He was expressionless even when Cassie confronted him and cried in front of him. All he need was a slight push, making him think that he was losing Jack and he would be running after him in no time. After all, it isn't hard to imagine Jack leaving him considering the things Jack had spoken during their last meeting and his twenty years of pent up anger. Its easy for Ennis thoughts to be running wild after that if he found out of a possible love affair between Jack and his neighbour or that Jack is moving in with another guy...
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Ennis was already in a pretty bad condition after their last meeting. He was expressionless even when Cassie confronted him and cried in front of him. All he need was a slight push, making him think that he was losing Jack and he would be running after him in no time. After all, it isn't hard to imagine Jack leaving him considering the things Jack had spoken during their last meeting and his twenty years of pent up anger. Its easy for Ennis thoughts to be running wild after that if he found out of a possible love affair between Jack and his neighbour or that Jack is moving in with another guy...
So you thought that after the Final Confrontation, Ennis had a premonition of Jack possibly leaving him? Well, it was true, although I bet the Ennis never imagined that the leave-taking would be in the form of an early and sudden death...
In any case -- Ennis shouldn't have took Jack's love for granted. We don't have anything in this life forever...
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So you thought that after the Final Confrontation, Ennis had a premonition of Jack possibly leaving him? Well, it was true, although I bet the Ennis never imagined that the leave-taking would be in the form of an early and sudden death...
In any case -- Ennis shouldn't have took Jack's love for granted. We don't have anything in this life forever...
Yes, I agree that Ennis took Jack's love for granted. If they hadn't had what turned out to be their FC, he would have been happy to carry on with their fishing trips for the next 20 years IMO.
It was a hard lesson to learn that nothing in this life is forever...
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It's true that if Jack hadn't died, Ennis would never truly appreciate how much he loved him but if Jack had broken up with Ennis, it would have the same effect. The main point is making Ennis realize how important Jack is to him right? Maybe Jack could break up with Ennis and move to Mexico. Ennis drops by for a visit and saw how happy Jack is with his new partner and his heart aches for Jack but he wouldn't admit it. As usual he would just keep his silence until Jack's partner proposes (is that possible?) to Jack and he accepts. Ennis realizes that he would lose him forever if he didn't act so he fights for Jack's love and its a happy ending. I just love happy endings...
This is so true! I always believed that as much as it was Ennis' fault, Jack had his mistakes too, but his were made in the need of Ennis' love, and Ennis' mistakes were made cos of a fear.
I think that if Jack didn't die, they'll find a way to enjoy the sweet life, cos Jack wasn't the same man any more and he showed it clearly during FC! Ennis had to give in finally.
And it is just that - one small step that Ennis would have probably done to have a sweet life with Jack, made us even more anxious about Jack's death! :\'(
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So you thought that after the Final Confrontation, Ennis had a premonition of Jack possibly leaving him? Well, it was true, although I bet the Ennis never imagined that the leave-taking would be in the form of an early and sudden death...
In any case -- Ennis shouldn't have took Jack's love for granted. We don't have anything in this life forever...
Isn't it partially Jack's fault too, to let Ennis treat him (and his love) like that? :s)
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And it is just that - one small step that Ennis would have probably done to have a sweet life with Jack, made us even more anxious about Jack's death! :\'(
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I'm not sure if Ennis could have ever committed totally ,but I think he was willing to try to change some after FC. Even though nothing was resolved, I think they both had given each other some food for thought that could have carried over if they had their next meeting and so on. Neither one of the boys could let go of each other for good after the reunion. They had to be in each other's lives some way, and really considering the time and where they lived, it was difficult for them. Death even didn't completely separate them since Jack was still with Ennis in his dreams and the shirts. Even though the ending is VERY sad, I think it is also so VERY moving and what makes it such a masterpiece in films.
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And it is just that - one small step that Ennis would have probably done to have a sweet life with Jack, made us even more anxious about Jack's death! :\'(
I'm not sure if Ennis could have ever committed totally ,but I think he was willing to try to change some after FC. Even though nothing was resolved, I think they both had given each other some food for thought that could have carried over if they had their next meeting and so on. Neither one of the boys could let go of each other for good after the reunion. They had to be in each other's lives some way, and really considering the time and where they lived, it was difficult for them. Death even didn't completely separate them since Jack was still with Ennis in his dreams and the shirts. Even though the ending is VERY sad, I think it is also so VERY moving and what makes it such a masterpiece in films.
This is a very good point! Even after Jack's death, they are together in a way - Jack's spirit IS in the shirts and accompanies Ennis in his dreams.
And sure! If they ended up together, this story wouldn't have a half of it's power and influence on us. Still... I always daydream of them together, not only in spirit, but in body. Even then I am somehow melancholic and sad, cos that lovely summer on Brokeback is so sadly distant, that it hurts even if I see them together in my thoughts. How stupid this sounds, ha? :i
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Yes, I agree that Ennis took Jack's love for granted. If they hadn't had what turned out to be their FC, he would have been happy to carry on with their fishing trips for the next 20 years IMO.
It was a hard lesson to learn that nothing in this life is forever...
Exactly, which only makes the final lesson all the harder for him to bear. In a sense, it was his punishment. If there is ever a moral to the story, this is probably it.
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Isn't it partially Jack's fault too, to let Ennis treat him (and his love) like that? :s)
Yes, but that fault is more forgivable, IMO. He did it more for Ennis than for himself, of course.
Ennis also thought that he was doing Jack a favor by not giving in. But unlike the case with Jack, it was really his underlying fear that was at the heart of his hesitation.
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And it is just that - one small step that Ennis would have probably done to have a sweet life with Jack, made us even more anxious about Jack's death! :\'(
I'm not sure if Ennis could have ever committed totally ,but I think he was willing to try to change some after FC. Even though nothing was resolved, I think they both had given each other some food for thought that could have carried over if they had their next meeting and so on. Neither one of the boys could let go of each other for good after the reunion. They had to be in each other's lives some way, and really considering the time and where they lived, it was difficult for them. Death even didn't completely separate them since Jack was still with Ennis in his dreams and the shirts. Even though the ending is VERY sad, I think it is also so VERY moving and what makes it such a masterpiece in films.
I also think that there was a change after the Final Confrontation. Remember that in the story, the word "almost" was used in describing the situation after. So the implication was that there was a slight change. That we see Ennis finally put things to rest with Cassie is a clear indication that he had begun to move in the right direction.
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Yes, but that fault is more forgivable, IMO. He did it more for Ennis than for himself, of course.
Ennis also thought that he was doing Jack a favor by not giving in. But unlike the case with Jack, it was really his underlying fear that was at the heart of his hesitation.
Sure it's more forgivable! I could forgive Jack a lot of things.... ::) many many things... ;)
As I said once, I can't resent him a thing. It is just that his uncontrollable love for Ennis took away his common sense and he wasn't thinking clear because of that love. Pity! Cos he also had few aces in his pocket! If he knew how to use them, things could've gone to the other side, the one of their sweet life... :\'(
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Sure it's more forgivable! I could forgive Jack a lot of things.... ::) many many things... ;)
As I said once, I can't resent him a thing. It is just that his uncontrollable love for Ennis took away his common sense and he wasn't thinking clear because of that love. Pity! Cos he also had few aces in his pocket! If he knew how to use them, things could've gone to the other side, the one of their sweet life... :\'(
I also think he was honestly trying to give Ennis the space he needed, fearing that to deny him that would make him like a skittish horse -- reacting "unproportionally" to every little thing/suggestion. Jack probably thought that going slow was the best way to inevitably change Ennis... Well, it later proved to be. that 20 years was clearly not enough time, so jack probably felt cheated out of those 20 years...
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I also think he was honestly trying to give Ennis the space he needed, fearing that to deny him that would make him like a skittish horse -- reacting "unproportionally" to every little thing/suggestion. Jack probably thought that going slow was the best way to inevitably change Ennis... Well, it later proved to be. that 20 years was clearly not enough time, so jack probably felt cheated out of those 20 years...
The best indicator of that was the scene when Jack arrives after Ennis divorced! OMG! That had to be more than devastating for Jack, still he only said: Well than, see you next month?!?! This is unbelievable! He should have knocked Ennis down like he had knocked Jack on Brokeback! But he just left, all in tears... damn Jack! You were such a henpecked!
Sure, after 20 years of patient waiting and deep understanding, when Jack figured out that Ennis hasn't changed a bit, he felt betrayed! And than he snapped, and was about to make a change in Ennis' world, but sadly he left for good....
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The best indicator of that was the scene when Jack arrives after Ennis divorced! OMG! That had to be more than devastating for Jack, still he only said: Well than, see you next month?!?! This is unbelievable! He should have knocked Ennis down like he had knocked Jack on Brokeback! But he just left, all in tears... damn Jack! You were such a henpecked!
Sure, after 20 years of patient waiting and deep understanding, when Jack figured out that Ennis hasn't changed a bit, he felt betrayed! And than he snapped, and was about to make a change in Ennis' world, but sadly he left for good....
Yes, I thought that in that scene, he was almost superhuman. He didn't even break down until he had driven away.
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Yes, I thought that in that scene, he was almost superhuman. He didn't even break down until he had driven away.
Ennis saw that Jack was highly dissapointed, but he didn't know how much! Not that he didn't care, but there was always something more important than Jack! :\'(
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Ennis saw that Jack was highly dissapointed, but he didn't know how much! Not that he didn't care, but there was always something more important than Jack! :\'(
Yes, I think Ennis didn't realize just how much it affected Jack.
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Yes, I think Ennis didn't realize just how much it affected Jack.
Hm... and even had he realize, would he have changed his mind and let Jack stay only for a day or two, if not completely give in?? :s)
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Yes, I think Ennis didn't realize just how much it affected Jack.
Oh what we do for love. What happened in that scene would have been more than enough for a lot of people to quit someone. It was really awful and even though I know Ennis wasn't trying to be mean or blow Jack off, he did through his fear.
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Hm... and even had he realize, would he have changed his mind and let Jack stay only for a day or two, if not completely give in?? :s)
I think Ennis was also sensitive to Jack's feelings. He might have compromised had he known how Jack really felt, IMO. But then again, perhaps he was blind by choice to the possibility of Jack hurting...
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Oh what we do for love. What happened in that scene would have been more than enough for a lot of people to quit someone. It was really awful and even though I know Ennis wasn't trying to be mean or blow Jack off, he did through his fear.
Yes, I was actually thinking of how this in most real life situation whould have led to a break-up. I would say that few people would have undergone such a treatment.
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Yes, I was actually thinking of how this in most real life situation whould have led to a break-up. I would say that few people would have undergone such a treatment.
Yes,the problem is that maybe Jack depended too much on Ennis for his own happiness.And Ennis depended too much of himself for Jack's and his own happiness too.And because of that,he took for granted that Jack loved him and kept on being by his side,in no matter what circomstances.
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I think Ennis was also sensitive to Jack's feelings. He might have compromised had he known how Jack really felt, IMO. But then again, perhaps he was blind by choice to the possibility of Jack hurting...
I think that you're right here - he was blind by choice. That was often his way - to put his head in the sand to avoid an open confrontation with problems. But also, as deep inside he loved Jack, surely he was sensitive to his feelings, but obviously not enough to acknowledge them. :(
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Yes,the problem is that maybe Jack depended too much on Ennis for his own happiness.And Ennis depended too much of himself for Jack's and his own happiness too.And because of that,he took for granted that Jack loved him and kept on being by his side,in no matter what circomstances.
I remember a passage from Perl Buck's novel "Peony". About a lover being subject to his love, and that freedom and happiness can only be attained when the lover does not rely on that love for happiness.
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I think that you're right here - he was blind by choice. That was often his way - to put his head in the sand to avoid an open confrontation with problems. But also, as deep inside he loved Jack, surely he was sensitive to his feelings, but obviously not enough to acknowledge them. :(
As MPJ had noted, I think this deliberate choice to be blind is rooted on his belief that happiness hinges completely on his love for Ennis. Had he been less rigid about this, he may have understood that to risk that happiness for a greater good/truth would have gotten him closer to his goal, paradoxically.
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As MPJ had noted, I think this deliberate choice to be blind is rooted on his belief that happiness hinges completely on his love for Ennis. Had he been less rigid about this, he may have understood that to risk that happiness for a greater good/truth would have gotten him closer to his goal, paradoxically.
Can you explain who is who here?
Hm.. maybe it is me again, but I can not find the connection... :s) cos I was thinking that Ennis was blind by his choice, and here it seems that you're talking about Jack's blindness...
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Can you explain who is who here?
Hm.. maybe it is me again, but I can not find the connection... :s) cos I was thinking that Ennis was blind by his choice, and here it seems that you're talking about Jack's blindness...
Theyn were both blind. But we were talking about Jack's blindness, and his inability to force the issue on Ennis, even at the risk of pushing Ennis into a corner and making him make a choice...
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Theyn were both blind. But we were talking about Jack's blindness, and his inability to force the issue on Ennis, even at the risk of pushing Ennis into a corner and making him make a choice...
It is me again, huh? ???
;D
I get it now! And yes! I agree that he sadly also showed a great deal of blindness when it came to his relationship with Ennis and achieving the goal of sweet life with him! :(
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Theyn were both blind. But we were talking about Jack's blindness, and his inability to force the issue on Ennis, even at the risk of pushing Ennis into a corner and making him make a choice...
Hello, handsome. I missed you yesterday. :^^)
For me it was not blindness. It was devotion. Jack did not force the issue on Ennis because he knew that he could lose Ennis if he pushed too much, but, above all, he knew that it'd hurt Ennis, like it did in the last confrontation, and he was unable to hurt his man. Putting Ennis between a rock and a hard place could be too much for Ennis...I mean, Ennis' life was already miserable, and the only thing that made him go on were his fishing trips with Jack. But Ennis also loved his girls with his whole heart and he was afraid of them finding that he was queer and then hating him or something, and he sure didn't want to leave them when he was still married to Alma. So had Jack forced the issue and made Ennis to decided, it could have shattered Ennis to the bone...because he couldn't live without Jack, but he couldn't live either without his family and his facade of straight man, the one he was not ashamed of. And also, you know that fear of death is something tremendously powerful and not easy to overcome. Ennis was afraid of losing his life but also he was afraid of Jack dying. So maybe if Jack had made Ennis choose, Ennis still had chose to quit Jack, because Jack’s life was so precious to him, the most important thing ever, and he surely preferred to be alone and without Jack than having Jack for a few time and then to live the rest of his life like Rich, and what it’s worse, thinking that Jack died because of him, and that it was his fault. Ennis had a huge break down in the confrontation scene. I bet Jack knew all along that he couldn't put his man in a situation like that...
Yeah, Thomas, maybe Ennis would changed.....or like you and me talked in another thread about what Ennis had done had Jack survived the accident, maybe he had not changed....Maybe Ennis had lived an empty miserable life full of longing for Jack but without him, if he was forced to decided....Maybe Jack knew all that. Ennis already chose once to live without Jack when he left the mountain....he could do it again, even if that tore his heart apart.
This is only MHO, you know that, but as a good Jack's girl I am, you know I don't think that Jack was blind. ^f^
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Good post,Tammy ¡ :clap: :clap: :clap: I'd only add that,for me,is not as much blindness or devotion,as fear.Fear of loosing Ennis if he pushed him against the ropes,but also fear of keep on living that way.Somehow,Jack ended by living as his Ennis contradictions.
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It is me again, huh? ???
;D
I get it now! And yes! I agree that he sadly also showed a great deal of blindness when it came to his relationship with Ennis and achieving the goal of sweet life with him! :(
He tried to turn the other way -- ignoring the symptoms of the bigger problem on why Ennis would not agree to a sweet life.
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Hello, handsome. I missed you yesterday. :^^)
For me it was not blindness. It was devotion. Jack did not force the issue on Ennis because he knew that he could lose Ennis if he pushed too much, but, above all, he knew that it'd hurt Ennis, like it did in the last confrontation, and he was unable to hurt his man. Putting Ennis between a rock and a hard place could be too much for Ennis...I mean, Ennis' life was already miserable, and the only thing that made him go on were his fishing trips with Jack. But Ennis also loved his girls with his whole heart and he was afraid of them finding that he was queer and then hating him or something, and he sure didn't want to leave them when he was still married to Alma. So had Jack forced the issue and made Ennis to decided, it could have shattered Ennis to the bone...because he couldn't live without Jack, but he couldn't live either without his family and his facade of straight man, the one he was not ashamed of. And also, you know that fear of death is something tremendously powerful and not easy to overcome. Ennis was afraid of losing his life but also he was afraid of Jack dying. So maybe if Jack had made Ennis choose, Ennis still had chose to quit Jack, because Jack’s life was so precious to him, the most important thing ever, and he surely preferred to be alone and without Jack than having Jack for a few time and then to live the rest of his life like Rich, and what it’s worse, thinking that Jack died because of him, and that it was his fault. Ennis had a huge break down in the confrontation scene. I bet Jack knew all along that he couldn't put his man in a situation like that...
Yeah, Thomas, maybe Ennis would changed.....or like you and me talked in another thread about what Ennis had done had Jack survived the accident, maybe he had not changed....Maybe Ennis had lived an empty miserable life full of longing for Jack but without him, if he was forced to decided....Maybe Jack knew all that. Ennis already chose once to live without Jack when he left the mountain....he could do it again, even if that tore his heart apart.
This is only MHO, you know that, but as a good Jack's girl I am, you know I don't think that Jack was blind. ^f^
Well, this is another side of the coin. I do also tend to agree that it was more about TOTAL devotion -- a surrendering to the other in spite of the effects. But devotion does not mean that there is no blindness, correct? In fact, it is a common phrase often used: "a blind devotion"... Also, "love is blind"...
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He tried to turn the other way -- ignoring the symptoms of the bigger problem on why Ennis would not agree to a sweet life.
Yesterday I've read some parts of SS and I've noticed a sentence in the motel scene when Jack asks:
Every once in a 4 f***ing ears, and then Ennis "wanted to ask whose fault it was, but he held back those words" - meaning that Ennis thought that Jack leaving for Texas was to blame for so long period that they hadn't met.
So, Ennis had some ideas of being with Jack sort of, but was he really ready to leave everything and go for it.... now when Baby Tammy wrote so long post, I am not sure myself any more.... :s)
I always thought that he would've, but would he really? Isn't it only the Jack's death, the worst of the worst outcome that finally let him open his eyes? I don't know!
And when was the most promising situation for Jack to grasp his chances and to make Ennis embrace their sweet life together? That is, if there's any...
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Yesterday I've read some parts of SS and I've noticed a sentence in the motel scene when Jack asks:
Every once in a 4 f***ing ears, and then Ennis "wanted to ask whose fault it was, but he held back those words" - meaning that Ennis thought that Jack leaving for Texas was to blame for so long period that they hadn't met.
So, Ennis had some ideas of being with Jack sort of, but was he really ready to leave everything and go for it.... now when Baby Tammy wrote so long post, I am not sure myself any more.... :s)
I always thought that he would've, but would he really? Isn't it only the Jack's death, the worst of the worst outcome that finally let him open his eyes? I don't know!
And when was the most promising situation for Jack to grasp his chances and to make Ennis embrace their sweet life together? That is, if there's any...
Well, I would tend to think that it was simply a convenient excuse. Ennis, alas, never really went out of his way to look for Jack -- preferring the more passive strategy of simply waiting... He certainly thought about Jack all the time, but it was largely done without much thought of direct action, don't you agree?
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Well, I would tend to think that it was simply a convenient excuse. Ennis, alas, never really went out of his way to look for Jack -- preferring the more passive strategy of simply waiting... He certainly thought about Jack all the time, but it was largely done without much thought of direct action, don't you agree?
Yes,it's true... :-\\ But,in his case,thinking is an easy and private action;but doing a further step is more"public",too public to dare to do it.Even if I'm moved thinking how much Ennis must suffer saying "no" so many times,to Jack,yes,but also to himself.And this last "no" is what hurts the most... :\'(
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Well, I would tend to think that it was simply a convenient excuse. Ennis, alas, never really went out of his way to look for Jack -- preferring the more passive strategy of simply waiting... He certainly thought about Jack all the time, but it was largely done without much thought of direct action, don't you agree?
I agree! I think that sometimes I am not fair to Ennis, cos I always resent him his refusal to live with Jack. But I am not the person who should know about his fears! :( I can only try to imagine, but I can't understand it 100%. He had it all in front of him, and he was so afraid to do a little step more...
But let me ask again - when do you think that Jack's chances would be the best? What would you do if you were Jack, to persuade Ennis to go for a sweet life together?
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Yes,it's true... :-\\ But,in his case,thinking is an easy and private action;but doing a further step is more"public",too public to dare to do it.Even if I'm moved thinking how much Ennis must suffer saying "no" so many times,to Jack,yes,but also to himself.And this last "no" is what hurts the most... :\'(
I agree! I think that sometimes I am not fair to Ennis, cos I always resent him his refusal to live with Jack. But I am not the person who should know about his fears! :( I can only try to imagine, but I can't understand it 100%. He had it all in front of him, and he was so afraid to do a little step more...
But let me ask again - when do you think that Jack's chances would be the best? What would you do if you were Jack, to persuade Ennis to go for a sweet life together?
And to be fair to Ennis -- he honestly believed that it would have been dangerous for both of them to have been in such a relationship. I guess he thought he had Jack's best interests in mind also when he chose to stay away. Ennis clearly thought about Jack frequently during the years of separation...
I think Jack's best chance was in 63 on BBM. Once Ennis married Alma, things got too complicated.
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And to be fair to Ennis -- he honestly believed that it would have been dangerous for both of them to have been in such a relationship. I guess he thought he had Jack's best interests in mind also when he chose to stay away. Ennis clearly thought about Jack frequently during the years of separation...
I think Jack's best chance was in 63 on BBM. Once Ennis married Alma, things got too complicated.
I can only imagine how much Ennis was thinking of Jack and vice versa all those years... :\'(
1963 had it's chances, but maybe back then they were still not aware of the power that holds him together, of the love that already grew huge... That was the problem, but yes - if they recognize their feelings then, the chances for accepting the sweet life were the best!
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We did see his distant look while lating asphalt on the ground -- for me, it is clearly a moment when he was thinking of Jack.
Whether or not they were aware, I still think it was the best time to have made things happen. After that, there was just one complication after the next. Had they takena leap early on, perhaps they could have worked things out even as they became more and more aware of how they felt for the other.
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We did see his distant look while lating asphalt on the ground -- for me, it is clearly a moment when he was thinking of Jack.
Whether or not they were aware, I still think it was the best time to have made things happen. After that, there was just one complication after the next. Had they takena leap early on, perhaps they could have worked things out even as they became more and more aware of how they felt for the other.
Can you please explain this?
Anyway all the complications were coming from Ennis - for Jack things were pretty much simple all the time.
Jack! <^(
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I agree.If they have been able to recognise their feelings-specially Ennis,of course-in 1963,more still after having come down on the mountain,everything has been easier for both of them.We have often said that there wasn't such a happy and free moments for them as the first ones on BBM;so,if they have talked openly about this in this unbearably distant and cold conversation just before their first farewell,things would have been more definitive for them in a positive sense.After that,it's true,everything were problems and obstacles,and IMO,the more obstacles they had,the more obstacles they created,in a kind of vicious circle...
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Can you please explain this?
Anyway all the complications were coming from Ennis - for Jack things were pretty much simple all the time.
Jack! <^(
Type. I meant to say: while he was laying asphalt on the road.
Yes, things would have been much different had Jack had the upper hand. What could have happened in this situation is a bit easier for me to see -- the sweet life, whatever consequences it may lead to.
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I agree.If they have been able to recognise their feelings-specially Ennis,of course-in 1963,more still after having come down on the mountain,everything has been easier for both of them.We have often said that there wasn't such a happy and free moments for them as the first ones on BBM;so,if they have talked openly about this in this unbearably distant and cold conversation just before their first farewell,things would have been more definitive for them in a positive sense.After that,it's true,everything were problems and obstacles,and IMO,the more obstacles they had,the more obstacles they created,in a kind of vicious circle...
I really think their failure to come to terms with their feelings after they came down the Mountain in 63 was the pivot on which the entire tragedy unfolds. The 4 years of separation were crucial -- perhaps even the deciding factor/moment. I think after that, it was pretty much difficult to change course...
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I really think their failure to come to terms with their feelings after they came down the Mountain in 63 was the pivot on which the entire tragedy unfolds. The 4 years of separation were crucial -- perhaps even the deciding factor/moment. I think after that, it was pretty much difficult to change course...
I only can but quote this...This very scene of their first farewell after coming down BBM was in the middle of all their following problems.
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I really think their failure to come to terms with their feelings after they came down the Mountain in 63 was the pivot on which the entire tragedy unfolds. The 4 years of separation were crucial -- perhaps even the deciding factor/moment. I think after that, it was pretty much difficult to change course...
I am not so sure about this... After 4 years they found out that the feelings have not gone, Jack had an opportunity to fetch some money from LD...
Ennis's marriage was going down after a few years of the fishing trips. What I want to say is that all the things were pointing to one aim - the sweet life with Jack! As complicated as it seemed, it was the only road to their happiness.
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I agree Loreen, but we need to remember the fear that gripped Ennis was so strong that he was unable to even think of the "sweet life" w/ Jack. All he could think of was the tire iron, & in the end his worse fears were made known.
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I agree Loreen, but we need to remember the fear that gripped Ennis was so strong that he was unable to even think of the "sweet life" w/ Jack. All he could think of was the tire iron, & in the end his worse fears were made known.
Sure. That stupid fear overcame all their chances.
I was only referring to the circumstances which were not so unfavorable. Unfortunately ... that didn't help. :\'(
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I only can but quote this...This very scene of their first farewell after coming down BBM was in the middle of all their following problems.
I agree. For me, it was the critical point.
I am not so sure about this... After 4 years they found out that the feelings have not gone, Jack had an opportunity to fetch some money from LD...
Ennis's marriage was going down after a few years of the fishing trips. What I want to say is that all the things were pointing to one aim - the sweet life with Jack! As complicated as it seemed, it was the only road to their happiness.
Lack of money would not have stopped them, in any case. And the fact that both of them were married and had children after the 4 years gave Ennis the excuse to turn down Jack's proposal. Even the subsequent failure of Ennis's marriage did not change things, since the children was still the reason given by Ennis for resisting any such move with Jack.
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I agree Loreen, but we need to remember the fear that gripped Ennis was so strong that he was unable to even think of the "sweet life" w/ Jack. All he could think of was the tire iron, & in the end his worse fears were made known.
That is a good point. The fear did grow stronger in the intervening years. Whatever emotional headway/momentum that was made immediately after the summer of 63 was perhaps lost.
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Lack of money would not have stopped them, in any case. And the fact that both of them were married and had children after the 4 years gave Ennis the excuse to turn down Jack's proposal. Even the subsequent failure of Ennis's marriage did not change things, since the children was still the reason given by Ennis for resisting any such move with Jack.
Hm... I think that if they wanted a new life, a certain amount of the money in the pocket would be more than welcomed. :)
I also agree that Ennis was looking for the excuses... that's all. First Marriage, then children (whom BTW he was seeing a few times a year??!!).... So, it wasn't about that 4 years or the complications -it was always and only that complexed state of Ennis's mind which was the obstacle from the very beginning, that is from the punch on the last day on Brokeback!
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Hm... I think that if they wanted a new life, a certain amount of the money in the pocket would be more than welcomed. :)
I also agree that Ennis was looking for the excuses... that's all. First Marriage, then children (whom BTW he was seeing a few times a year??!!).... So, it wasn't about that 4 years or the complications -it was always and only that complexed state of Ennis's mind which was the obstacle from the very beginning, that is from the punch on the last day on Brokeback!
Welcome, but not necessary, I think. ;)
With enough money, they could have bought a ranch of their own, and not have planned to stay in the LF ranch.
Yes, I think it was one excuse after another. After the divorce and the sad scene of jack being turned away, I think Jack got it -- that there would always be some reason for Ennis to say "no".
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Welcome, but not necessary, I think. ;)
With enough money, they could have bought a ranch of their own, and not have planned to stay in the LF ranch.
Yes, I think it was one excuse after another. After the divorce and the sad scene of jack being turned away, I think Jack got it -- that there would always be some reason for Ennis to say "no".
Do you really believe that had Ennis agreed, John Twist would have let them stay and LIVE together in LF?
I seriously doubt that. :-\\
I believe that having some money was a really good start for them.
And, yes! The divorce scene is the one after Jack's hopes sank. My poor Jack! :\'(
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Do you really believe that had Ennis agreed, John Twist would have let them stay and LIVE together in LF?
I seriously doubt that. :-\\
I believe that having some money was a really good start for them.
And, yes! The divorce scene is the one after Jack's hopes sank. My poor Jack! :\'(
:\'( :\'( :\'( it never really fails to get to me :\'(
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Do you really believe that had Ennis agreed, John Twist would have let them stay and LIVE together in LF?
I seriously doubt that. :-\\
I believe that having some money was a really good start for them.
And, yes! The divorce scene is the one after Jack's hopes sank. My poor Jack! :\'(
Well, some other members think that John Twist expected it! That is, he wanted someone to help him manage the ranch, and anyone Jack brought in would be welcome. This is a matter of interpretation/perception, of course.
As with Ennis always finding an excuse, I feel that John Twist would always have a bone to pick with his son...
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Well, some other members think that John Twist expected it! That is, he wanted someone to help him manage the ranch, and anyone Jack brought in would be welcome. This is a matter of interpretation/perception, of course.
As with Ennis always finding an excuse, I feel that John Twist would always have a bone to pick with his son...
I remember that someone said so about John Twist - that he expected a helping hand on the ranch, but would he accept that Jack and Ennis really LIVE together?
When he spoke about it in the LF scene (Jack had some idea that 2 of you....), he was deliberately hurting Ennis, but I am still not sure was John Twist aware of the real nature of E&J relationship. And if he was, would he let them live together in order to get help on the ranch? :s)
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I remember that someone said so about John Twist - that he expected a helping hand on the ranch, but would he accept that Jack and Ennis really LIVE together?
When he spoke about it in the LF scene (Jack had some idea that 2 of you....), he was deliberately hurting Ennis, but I am still not sure was John Twist aware of the real nature of E&J relationship. And if he was, would he let them live together in order to get help on the ranch? :s)
Had Jack not died and succeeded in bringing Ennis back with him to LF, I suspect that Jack would inevitably have his way, even if John Twist had any objections. I may be wrong in this, but Jack's persistence seems to suggest this. If he succeeded in turning Ennis around, then what else would be impossible?
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Had Jack not died and succeeded in bringing Ennis back with him to LF, I suspect that Jack would inevitably have his way, even if John Twist had any objections. I may be wrong in this, but Jack's persistence seems to suggest this. If he succeeded in turning Ennis around, then what else would be impossible?
That would have been a living hell! I can't possibly imagine that 20-30 years ago, an old goat like John Twist would allow his son to bring his lover home and that JT would have no remarks and daily complaints which would have definitely lead to the end of Ennis's life on the farm. IMO...
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It's because of the tragic ending to the film that BBM fanfic started. Somebody New is a MUST read for just about everyone here. It is beautifully written and so well-crafted in believability that it creates a seamless transition to an alternate reality of the end of the movie.
It's about healing for those of us who need it after the fiilm.
Annie Proulx evidentally said something to the effect that she was unable to envision any other ending for the characters. But we can!
Shelley
*raises hand* I NEED IT!!!
where can i find Somebody New?? i found a link but it didn't work, if someone can point me in the right direction i'd be forever grateful :) i agree with everyone who said that the unhappy ending is inevitable, and without it the movie would lose a great deal of it's impact, it truly is a great tragedy and when i'm thinking logically i can convince myself i wouldn't have liked any other ending.... but when i'm lost in the characters and their pain and when i can't get the vision of Ennis' eternal loneliness out of my head, it's then that i long for a different outcome with lots of happiness or at least just some closure for him. the thought of his life stretching out before him, alone, all that gorgeous sweetness just going to waste :(
it would be awesome to have that happy ending in my head, for days when the real ending is just too much
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*raises hand* I NEED IT!!!
where can i find Somebody New?? i found a link but it didn't work, if someone can point me in the right direction i'd be forever grateful :) i agree with everyone who said that the unhappy ending is inevitable, and without it the movie would lose a great deal of it's impact, it truly is a great tragedy and when i'm thinking logically i can convince myself i wouldn't have liked any other ending.... but when i'm lost in the characters and their pain and when i can't get the vision of Ennis' eternal loneliness out of my head, it's then that i long for a different outcome with lots of happiness or at least just some closure for him. the thought of his life stretching out before him, alone, all that gorgeous sweetness just going to waste :(
it would be awesome to have that happy ending in my head, for days when the real ending is just too much
I think that perhaps our members in the fanfic part of the forum can help you find this?
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I read an essay about that last parting scene. One, it was the first time that Jack really opened up about his feelings for Ennis and vice verse. These two spent 20 years not really owning up to what they were doing with each other. They pretended, for each other anyway, that they were straight and somehow liked being together while not being "queer". But Jack's revelations about Mexico, about wanting a life with Ennis over anything and anyone else, wishing he knew how to quit Jack were in a sense new ground for them...new admissions, guilt, shame, etc. And what happens? Ennis crumples into a heap like the end of the first summer when Jack did leave him. He also gets enraged that Jack would be with other men. Women he could deal with b/c (a) it was "normal" and (b) it was meaningless to their affair. But Ennis' reaction shows that he really has deep feelings and who knows how he has shown it over the 20 years.
Two, Jack finally learns that Ennis essentially trapped himself into a life where he could not provide for his family. He took dead end jobs, instead of say the one at the power company, so he could quit on a moment's notice to be with Jack. He suffered in the eyes of his family and community by not being a provider...all for Jack.
Three, he's imprisoned by his sense of responsibility. When he got a divorce, it wasn't the freedom he thought it would be given that he now had child support. So the job became more important than before. He couldn't take dead-end jobs for Jack anymore.
Which leads me to four, the "what if" question (thanks for bearing with me): Jack dies just as Ennis is totally freed from all responsibility. Junior is 19 and has been child-support-less for a year. Jenny is at most a year away from falling off Ennis' financial responsibility. So after all the declarations on that last day, after knowing that a year from then, Ennis didn't "need" to keep that job anymore, and knowing that Junior, who he was closest to would be leaving, what if Jack didn't die and they got together in November as planned? What would happen if there was no reason for Ennis to stay in Riverton or work that job?
I think that Ennis would have perhaps gotten together with Jack more often but not moved up to Lighting Flat. His willingness to quit the job for Junior's wedding only showed one thing: Ennis learned from his mistake.
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I think that Ennis would have perhaps gotten together with Jack more often but not moved up to Lighting Flat. His willingness to quit the job for Junior's wedding only showed one thing: Ennis learned from his mistake.
I had wondered about this too, and felt that things may not have changed that much. I think that the fundamental shift shown in Ennios's acceptance of Jr.'s invitation was because of Jack's death and what it taught him. perhaps if Jack had continued to live, things might not have changed.
And yet...
Perhaps the Last Confrontation did have an effect on Ennis. Witness his final breaking off with Cassie after the meeting. I somehow detect a subtle change of heart -- perhaps a new willingness to "take the plunge." But it is really hard to say...
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In the SS and in the film Junior is 17 when Jack dies. In the SS Ennis talks about Junior being 17 the last time Jack and him met in the mountain: Ennis put his arm around Jack, pulled him close, said he saw his girls about once a month, Alma, Jr., a shy seventeen-year-old with his beanpole length, Francine a little live wire.
And about the film you can read in the original screenplay of the movie that Junior was also 17 when Jack dies, and the scene between her and Ennis in Ennis' trailer happens more than two years after the last time Ennis and Jack saw each other (the screenplay set the confrontation scene between Ennis and Jack in 1981, and Junior's visit to Ennis in 1984). ^f^
OT: for more about the differences between screenplay and story, check out the thread on the timeline of the last scenes. :)
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With Jack's death, Ennis finally learns what Jack had been trying to teach him: life ain't worth living without love. And it's true what someone pointed out: after the last parting, Cassie got dumped. On some level, that frank discussion with Jack did change his viewpoint on himself and his life. Would the old Ennis have married Cassie? Or would he not regardless b/c he couldn't afford to support a wife?
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I agree with this. Annie P said that she wrote Jack's death because it was the only way that the story could end, the only way their relationship could find a resolution, because Ennis was not gonna change and the situation was unbearable for both of them. It's with Jack's death when Ennis changes, when love finds a way out, when Ennis learns, understands things and accepts them.
It is sad. :( A change of heart comes to some of us right after a door is closed forever. Not that it is all in vain...
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With Jack's death, Ennis finally learns what Jack had been trying to teach him: life ain't worth living without love. And it's true what someone pointed out: after the last parting, Cassie got dumped. On some level, that frank discussion with Jack did change his viewpoint on himself and his life. Would the old Ennis have married Cassie? Or would he not regardless b/c he couldn't afford to support a wife?
It's hard to read Ennis as far as Cassie was concerned. My best bet was that he would have continued to have kept the relationship in "limbo" -- never committing, yet never rejecting. Perhaps Cassie would have given up sooner. Perhaps she already was considering an exit strategy...
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She wasn't looking for an out. In the scene in the movie, she was looking for a way back in. But she was more of a character in the movie than in the book. In the story, she was just a waitress Ennis was "putting the blocks to". What the heck does that mean anyway?
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I read an essay about that last parting scene. One, it was the first time that Jack really opened up about his feelings for Ennis and vice verse. These two spent 20 years not really owning up to what they were doing with each other. They pretended, for each other anyway, that they were straight and somehow liked being together while not being "queer". But Jack's revelations about Mexico, about wanting a life with Ennis over anything and anyone else, wishing he knew how to quit Jack were in a sense new ground for them...new admissions, guilt, shame, etc. And what happens? Ennis crumples into a heap like the end of the first summer when Jack did leave him. He also gets enraged that Jack would be with other men. Women he could deal with b/c (a) it was "normal" and (b) it was meaningless to their affair. But Ennis' reaction shows that he really has deep feelings and who knows how he has shown it over the 20 years.
Two, Jack finally learns that Ennis essentially trapped himself into a life where he could not provide for his family. He took dead end jobs, instead of say the one at the power company, so he could quit on a moment's notice to be with Jack. He suffered in the eyes of his family and community by not being a provider...all for Jack.
Three, he's imprisoned by his sense of responsibility. When he got a divorce, it wasn't the freedom he thought it would be given that he now had child support. So the job became more important than before. He couldn't take dead-end jobs for Jack anymore.
Which leads me to four, the "what if" question (thanks for bearing with me): Jack dies just as Ennis is totally freed from all responsibility. Junior is 19 and has been child-support-less for a year. Jenny is at most a year away from falling off Ennis' financial responsibility. So after all the declarations on that last day, after knowing that a year from then, Ennis didn't "need" to keep that job anymore, and knowing that Junior, who he was closest to would be leaving, what if Jack didn't die and they got together in November as planned? What would happen if there was no reason for Ennis to stay in Riverton or work that job?
I think that Ennis would have perhaps gotten together with Jack more often but not moved up to Lighting Flat. His willingness to quit the job for Junior's wedding only showed one thing: Ennis learned from his mistake.
Wow! Great post.
I think Jackster posted a juxtaposition of the two scenes (in the alley with Ennis punching the wall, and the final confrontation when Ennis fell in a heap in Jack's arms). It took Ennis a year to figure that the alley scene was about needing Jack. It took the exchange with Cassie at the diner for him to see that the final confrontation was about love.
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With Jack's death, Ennis finally learns what Jack had been trying to teach him: life ain't worth living without love.
This makes great sense of Ennis' question for Junior, "Does he love you?"
And it's true what someone pointed out: after the last parting, Cassie got dumped. On some level, that frank discussion with Jack did change his viewpoint on himself and his life. Would the old Ennis have married Cassie? Or would he not regardless b/c he couldn't afford to support a wife?
I don't think Ennis could have ever married Cassie. She loved him enough to have supported him regardless, but Ennis wouldn't do that. That's not his style. If Jack wasn't in the picture, Ennis might have married Cassie, just to get on with a life. But with Jack holding his heart, Ennis couldn't marry anyone, not even the one he already married. That's why the divorce, as much as it hurt. Ennis was too honest to fake a relationship.
Having a bit of fun with Cassie was one thing (as long as she wants it and imposes on him), but marriage means something else. Ennis would never do that. It's also why he dumped her after the final confrantation. He knew unequivocally by that point that he could never live with anyone but Jack.
Ennis finally figured out "I wish I knew how to quit you!" translates to "I can never quit you!"
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She wasn't looking for an out. In the scene in the movie, she was looking for a way back in. But she was more of a character in the movie than in the book. In the story, she was just a waitress Ennis was "putting the blocks to". What the heck does that mean anyway?
I think Cassie wasn't mentioned in the book except in that line. The character was created only for the movie. I think it rounded out Ennis' character very well and provided the pivotal scene at the diner. I think Annie Proulx welcomed the character in the movie.
I don't know for sure what "putting the blocks" mean but I suspect it's similar to "having a bit of fun" in Britain, i.e. just a fling that's not serious. I may be wrong, however, so I'd like to hear from those who really know.
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She wasn't looking for an out. In the scene in the movie, she was looking for a way back in. But she was more of a character in the movie than in the book. In the story, she was just a waitress Ennis was "putting the blocks to". What the heck does that mean anyway?
Personally, I do tend to agree with you here.
As for "putting the blocks to", I think of Ennis fending her off with sticks and stones. ;) Well, from this statement, I get the feeling that Ennis was trying to tell Jack that he was an "unwilling" partner in the affair. Hard to say if this was true or not, given that we really don't "see" Cassie in the story. Although we have no reason to doubt Ennis on this point, we are also unsure of his motivation of being an involved in this affair in the first place. Was the attention flattering to him? Did it provide him with some cover?
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"Putting the blocks to" means copulation: http://www.sex-lexis.com/Sex-Dictionary/put%20the%20blocks%20to (http://www.sex-lexis.com/Sex-Dictionary/put%20the%20blocks%20to) So he wasn't telling Jack he was an unwilling partner. He was "manning up" for his "friend". He was with Cassie simply because Cassie reeled him in. He's passive...he doesn't seek anyone out except Jack.
It took the exchange with Cassie at the diner for him to see that the final confrontation was about love.
You really think Ennis was clueless that his "friend" was really his lover?
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"Putting the blocks to" means copulation: http://www.sex-lexis.com/Sex-Dictionary/put%20the%20blocks%20to (http://www.sex-lexis.com/Sex-Dictionary/put%20the%20blocks%20to) So he wasn't telling Jack he was an unwilling partner. He was "manning up" for his "friend". He was with Cassie simply because Cassie reeled him in. He's passive...he doesn't seek anyone out except Jack.
You really think Ennis was clueless that his "friend" was really his lover?
Well, I have no disagreement with you here. Perhaps "passive" is a better term than "unwilling". There is certainly a difference. Still, my point is that he didn't actively search out Cassie or encourage it. And to a certain extent, I do think that Ennis was not always willing to go along -- especially when it came to Cassie's ultimate plans of marriage. Had Ennis been passive in this instance, he would have just gone ahead and allow her to marry him.
I think deep down, Ennis knew that he was in love with Jack and they were lovers, for all intents and purposes. But it wasn't this that was the problem -- as I have stated in other threads. ;)
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Well, I have no disagreement with you here. Perhaps "passive" is a better term than "unwilling". There is certainly a difference. Still, my point is that he didn't actively search out Cassie or encourage it. And to a certain extent, I do think that Ennis was not always willing to go along -- especially when it came to Cassie's ultimate plans of marriage. Had Ennis been passive in this instance, he would have just gone ahead and allow her to marry him.
I think deep down, Ennis knew that he was in love with Jack and they were lovers, for all intents and purposes. But it wasn't this that was the problem -- as I have stated in other threads. ;)
Well,I think Ennis was "passive" in the sense that he let things happen and time fly,because this was the proper cover before society rules; this doesn't mean,however,that he was looking in an "active" way some woman who would play this cover's role...
But he wasn't "as passive" as to let this situation arriving to the last consequences,because IMO, he didn't want Cassie to be unlucky and bitter as Alma finished by being.In this sense,he knew how to play the role of "normal" man without letting his real and innest way of being...and feeling.And because,of course,I agree with you in that he was always aware of his love for Jack and the real nature of their relationship;a very different thing is that he accepted this inside him,that he really wished to give it this name,that he really felt at ease with these feelings...All in spite of himself,and that was the cause of all their tragedy;that he was really aware of what they were for one another...
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"Putting the blocks to" means copulation: http://www.sex-lexis.com/Sex-Dictionary/put%20the%20blocks%20to (http://www.sex-lexis.com/Sex-Dictionary/put%20the%20blocks%20to) So he wasn't telling Jack he was an unwilling partner. He was "manning up" for his "friend". He was with Cassie simply because Cassie reeled him in. He's passive...he doesn't seek anyone out except Jack.
You really think Ennis was clueless that his "friend" was really his lover?
That's an interesting term...passive. ::)
I agree with you, jedibarrister, and even go further to say that Ennis was passive even with Jack. He didn't send no postcard except to tell Jack he got divorced. The only other postcard he sent got returned to sender. He never called Jack otherwise Loreen would have spoken with him before then. All in all, Ennis was passive...but aggressive. That's why Jack said he was kept on a short leash. Things had to go his way or the highway. Ennis wouldn't admit it to himself that they were lovers, just two buddies having a bit of fun.
It's not until Cassie blurted out in tears at the diner that girls don't fall in love for fun, that Ennis was clued into this thing with no reins that he had for Jack. It sure ain't no one shot deal, and twenty years sure ain't just for a bit of fun. That's when he sent that postcard, wishing he could make it before November. Too late.
When he found the two shirts in Jack's closet, he knew, no matter what John Twist insinuated, that Jack was also in it for love. Nobody keeps two shirts like that, unwashed, enshrined, treasured for twenty years for a bit of fun. That's when he knew, when Jack said, I could never quit you, you d@mn son a wh@ring b!otw. You got me good. That's when Ennis knew that he also could never quit Jack. "I swear."
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Would all of us agree that part of Ennis's "passivity" stems from his reluctance to repeat what he and Alma went through? So was his reluctance to commit a clear indication on his part to spare Cassie the same pain?
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Would all of us agree that part of Ennis's "passivity" stems from his reluctance to repeat what he and Alma went through? So was his reluctance to commit a clear indication on his part to spare Cassie the same pain?
But he wasn't "as passive" as to let this situation arriving to the last consequences,because IMO, he didn't want Cassie to be unlucky and bitter as Alma finished by being.In this sense,he knew how to play the role of "normal" man without letting his real and innest way of being...and feeling.
~) I'm quoting myself,but here I'm saying more or less what you have asked here; one thing is have a cover before society and another very different one to repeat a situation he knew for sure that would mean sorrow and loneliness for Cassie.
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~) I'm quoting myself,but here I'm saying more or less what you have asked here; one thing is have a cover before society and another very different one to repeat a situation he knew for sure that would mean sorrow and loneliness for Cassie.
I feel the same way. For me, a part of it stemmed from his desire not to cause similar pain for someone who loved him...
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I feel the same way. For me, a part of it stemmed from his desire not to cause similar pain for someone who loved him...
Yes,and this is also one of his multiple contradictions; to wish to have a cover of respectability before society,but to fear to create this own cover.It's like "with or without you".
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Yes,and this is also one of his multiple contradictions; to wish to have a cover of respectability before society,but to fear to create this own cover.It's like "with or without you".
I guess we are all in agreement that Cassie loved him, correct?
Well, I think it was good and admirable on Ennis's part not to have used Cassie as cover by a second marriage. His final repudiation of Cassie may look cruel. But I do think that it saved her from a great deal of pain in the long run.
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That's right.He was fully aware that,in spite of all his fears of being seen as a "queer",he couldn't use an human being and her feelings to avoid this.And he was full aware too that he couldn't love her as she wished because,no matter how many times he denied it,he was already in love with Jack.
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The irony is that Ennis's final desire to come clean with Cassie probably moves him closer to the realization that his love for Jack had to be lived -- and not in a clandestine fashion? I can't help but equate his repudiation of Cassie to a move closer to his coming to terms with a life with Jack.
I know that there is no proof of this. But I do somehow sense a small but significant shift. I go back and forth in this, but for the most part, I felt that had Jack lives, something may have changed a little...
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Would all of us agree that part of Ennis's "passivity" stems from his reluctance to repeat what he and Alma went through? So was his reluctance to commit a clear indication on his part to spare Cassie the same pain?
Hmm...I don't agree here. I think the relationship between Cassie and Ennis has been obvious from the beginning. She is really into him, and he is just not that much into her. Afterall, he is passive (again that word) in the entire relationship with her. She, as we discussed in previous threads, is like a female Jack, putting all her hopes and dreams with him, even taking on Junior in one of their dates and treating her nice. The "burnt twice" comment at Thanksgiving was just an excuse with Alma, when she asked him about finding someone else to marry. It was almost like his response to Jack when he asked almost the same question, and he slought it off with putting the blocks on this little waitress.
Ennis had only love for Jack. He just didn't know what to do about it. He is passive because he is confused.
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The irony is that Ennis's final desire to come clean with Cassie probably moves him closer to the realization that his love for Jack had to be lived -- and not in a clandestine fashion? I can't help but equate his repudiation of Cassie to a move closer to his coming to terms with a life with Jack.
I know that there is no proof of this. But I do somehow sense a small but significant shift. I go back and forth in this, but for the most part, I felt that had Jack lives, something may have changed a little...
I don't see this desire at all. If anything, Ennis was once again avoiding the confrontation, avoiding her calls, ignoring her messages. If she didn't happen to see him at the diner, she would have gotten the message and moved on. But fresh from the pain of being dumped like that, she confronted him, and made him face the fact that the thing he had with Jack was like the thing she had with him, and she didn't just do it for fun.
The interesting part of Cassie in the movie is the symmetry of her role's entry into the movie, with Ennis sitting alone drinking beer after beer in a bar, and her exit, with Ennis sitting alone eating slowly a single apple pie in a diner. Both points to the extreme lonely life of a man at first pinely for the love of his life that he didn't understand, and a man finally given up to the love of life that was beyond his reach.
This reminds me of Ennis' own entry and exit in the movie...first the lonesome cowboy leaning against the trailer, waiting....not knowing the love of his life was about to come roaring through like the freight train that thundered past....then the lonely middle-age cowboy scrapping by in an almost empty trailer, standing vigil for the love of his love that left, leaving imprints that would never never fade.
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I don't see this desire at all. If anything, Ennis was once again avoiding the confrontation, avoiding her calls, ignoring her messages. If she didn't happen to see him at the diner, she would have gotten the message and moved on. But fresh from the pain of being dumped like that, she confronted him, and made him face the fact that the thing he had with Jack was like the thing she had with him, and she didn't just do it for fun.
The interesting part of Cassie in the movie is the symmetry of her role's entry into the movie, with Ennis sitting alone drinking beer after beer in a bar, and her exit, with Ennis sitting alone eating slowly a single apple pie in a diner. Both points to the extreme lonely life of a man at first pinely for the love of his life that he didn't understand, and a man finally given up to the love of life that was beyond his reach.
This reminds me of Ennis' own entry and exit in the movie...first the lonesome cowboy leaning against the trailer, waiting....not knowing the love of his life was about to come roaring through like the freight train that thundered past....then the lonely middle-age cowboy scrapping by in an almost empty trailer, standing vigil for the love of his love that left, leaving imprints that would never never fade.
So you think the Last Confrontation had nothing to do with Ennis's final break-up with Cassie?
I think the scene at the greyhound station mirrors Ennis's first scene with Cassie -- his drinking alone in the bar -- but in a much darker tone/color. I think the darker mood is certainly in keeping with the previous scene (Last Confrontation) and is certainly a bridge to the even darker discovery of the next one (Jack's death.)
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The irony is that Ennis's final desire to come clean with Cassie probably moves him closer to the realization that his love for Jack had to be lived -- and not in a clandestine fashion? I can't help but equate his repudiation of Cassie to a move closer to his coming to terms with a life with Jack.
I know that there is no proof of this. But I do somehow sense a small but significant shift. I go back and forth in this, but for the most part, I felt that had Jack lives, something may have changed a little...
I don't see this desire at all. If anything, Ennis was once again avoiding the confrontation, avoiding her calls, ignoring her messages. If she didn't happen to see him at the diner, she would have gotten the message and moved on. But fresh from the pain of being dumped like that, she confronted him, and made him face the fact that the thing he had with Jack was like the thing she had with him, and she didn't just do it for fun.
The interesting part of Cassie in the movie is the symmetry of her role's entry into the movie, with Ennis sitting alone drinking beer after beer in a bar, and her exit, with Ennis sitting alone eating slowly a single apple pie in a diner. Both points to the extreme lonely life of a man at first pinely for the love of his life that he didn't understand, and a man finally given up to the love of life that was beyond his reach.
This reminds me of Ennis' own entry and exit in the movie...first the lonesome cowboy leaning against the trailer, waiting....not knowing the love of his life was about to come roaring through like the freight train that thundered past....then the lonely middle-age cowboy scrapping by in an almost empty trailer, standing vigil for the love of his love that left, leaving imprints that would never never fade.
So you think the Last Confrontation had nothing to do with Ennis's final break-up with Cassie?
I think the scene at the greyhound station mirrors Ennis's first scene with Cassie -- his drinking alone in the bar -- but in a much darker tone/color. I think the darker mood is certainly in keeping with the previous scene (Last Confrontation) and is certainly a bridge to the even darker discovery of the next one (Jack's death.)
Perhaps I did not understand what you said about his desire to come clean with Cassie. I took it to mean he would come out to her and let her know that he is not interested. What he did, avoiding her, was not coming clean. It was simply his old passive-aggressive behavior...he can't have Jack so he won't bother with Cassie.
Regarding the symmetry of Cassie's entry and exit, I see the bar scene with Ennis brooding and drunk, a LOT darker than the diner scene. If anything, the diner is turning when Ennis finally reconciled his love for Jack. He just didn't know what to do about it, until Cassie ran off with tears running down her face, and her words, echoed in his head, "Girls don't fall in love for fun." And he realized the last twenty years with Jack wasn't just for fun.
In fact, the scene was the light at the end of the tunnet that made the crash of Jack's death more contrastingly tragic for the lost of opportunity. I don't see the darkness that you see, but that's what make Brokeback Mountain a great movie. It is art that transcends reality and allows everyone to see it in the light of his or her own experience.
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Perhaps I did not understand what you said about his desire to come clean with Cassie. I took it to mean he would come out to her and let her know that he is not interested. What he did, avoiding her, was not coming clean. It was simply his old passive-aggressive behavior...he can't have Jack so he won't bother with Cassie.
Regarding the symmetry of Cassie's entry and exit, I see the bar scene with Ennis brooding and drunk, a LOT darker than the diner scene. If anything, the diner is turning when Ennis finally reconciled his love for Jack. He just didn't know what to do about it, until Cassie ran off with tears running down her face, and her words, echoed in his head, "Girls don't fall in love for fun." And he realized the last twenty years with Jack wasn't just for fun.
In fact, the scene was the light at the end of the tunnet that made the crash of Jack's death more contrastingly tragic for the lost of opportunity. I don't see the darkness that you see, but that's what make Brokeback Mountain a great movie. It is art that transcends reality and allows everyone to see it in the light of his or her own experience.
Ah, I see. Sorry for the confusion. No, I didn't mean that he would come out to her. And I see what you mean then.
As for the symmerty, I do think that you are right in that the later scene does have an inner resolve -- a reconcilation, as you say it, with himself and his feelings for Jack. In this sense, yes, there is a redemptive quality to the later scene.
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Ah, I see. Sorry for the confusion. No, I didn't mean that he would come out to her. And I see what you mean then.
As for the symmerty, I do think that you are right in that the later scene does have an inner resolve -- a reconcilation, as you say it, with himself and his feelings for Jack. In this sense, yes, there is a redemptive quality to the later scene.
No worries, tpe. When someone is as prolific as you are posting in so many different threads, it's easy to get confused occasionally.
Thanks for clearing up the confusion.
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I don't see this desire at all. If anything, Ennis was once again avoiding the confrontation, avoiding her calls, ignoring her messages.
I agree that him finally putting an end to Cassie had everything to do with the final confrontation. The night before, he was bragging to Jack about "putting the blocks" to her. But that next morning, too much was said, too much heard, and too much felt. Ennis couldn't put the genie back in the bottle, couldn't unring the bell, and couldn't unhear/unfeel/unsay all that happened. Cassie was the casualty. But WHY she was the casualty is interesting. If Ennis torqued himself back to exactly where he was, he'd go back to pretending he was straight with "this thing" on the side with Jack...he'd go along and keep dating Cassie. That he dropped her, that he let her go, that he realized he'd be hurting her, speaks volumes to Ennis' mental state, and the shift in his thinking. Everything is subtle with Ennis.
Now for my "what if". Ennis is easily tagged as the one who sets down the law and dictates how the relationship goes...that he's the stubborn one. But Jack isn't guilt-free either. For him, it was "the sweet life" or Ennis' version of a painful life. It was "come to Texas", it was "let's get a place together". Imagine if he'd ever said: "What if I move back home to Lighting Flat?" Instead of 14 hours apart, they'd be about 4 hours apart. Instead of 2 weeks a year, they'd also have the option of weekends. Yet this compromise never came to Jack because he would never want to go back to his daddy's place full time. But more importantly, moving back anywhere in Wyoming never came to Jack. He wanted his fast paced life and Ennis to fit into it. Ennis was a ranch hand and liked the rancher life. So if Jack had moved to Wyoming, do you think Ennis would've kept to his 2-3 weeks a year?
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Two interesting observations, jedibarrister.
I agree that him finally putting an end to Cassie had everything to do with the final confrontation. The night before, he was bragging to Jack about "putting the blocks" to her. But that next morning, too much was said, too much heard, and too much felt. Ennis couldn't put the genie back in the bottle, couldn't unring the bell, and couldn't unhear/unfeel/unsay all that happened. Cassie was the casualty. But WHY she was the casualty is interesting. If Ennis torqued himself back to exactly where he was, he'd go back to pretending he was straight with "this thing" on the side with Jack...he'd go along and keep dating Cassie. That he dropped her, that he let her go, that he realized he'd be hurting her, speaks volumes to Ennis' mental state, and the shift in his thinking. Everything is subtle with Ennis.
I am not sure exactly why Ennis stopped responding to Cassie, but I think he finally understood, after the final confrontation, that it has been Jack all his life, that mattered most. "It's because of you that I'm like this." "I should never have let you go." Cassie actively pursured Ennis, and for a while, Ennis went along, kinda like his response to Jack. But, after the final confrontation, he knew there could be nothing permanent with Cassie. I am not sure if his reason was to "cut bait" so as not to hurt Cassie in the long run, "I ain't much fun, was I" or if he was simply going on his usual passive-aggressive mode, doing nothing to avoid making a choice between Jack and Cassie. I guess the post card he sent, after the confrontation with Cassie at the diner, was his way, finally, of making a choice. After all, "a girl don't fall in love with fun." The look on his face at that moment, echoes the look on Jack's face after the final confrontation...a look of bitter disappointment and longing and regrets and awakening ...
Now for my "what if". Ennis is easily tagged as the one who sets down the law and dictates how the relationship goes...that he's the stubborn one. But Jack isn't guilt-free either. For him, it was "the sweet life" or Ennis' version of a painful life. It was "come to Texas", it was "let's get a place together". Imagine if he'd ever said: "What if I move back home to Lighting Flat?" Instead of 14 hours apart, they'd be about 4 hours apart. Instead of 2 weeks a year, they'd also have the option of weekends. Yet this compromise never came to Jack because he would never want to go back to his daddy's place full time. But more importantly, moving back anywhere in Wyoming never came to Jack. He wanted his fast paced life and Ennis to fit into it. Ennis was a ranch hand and liked the rancher life. So if Jack had moved to Wyoming, do you think Ennis would've kept to his 2-3 weeks a year?
Agreed. Jack couldn't give up his good life in Texas without at least some acknowledgment from Ennis. After the divorce, Jack was certainly not going to rely on Ennis. It can be said that Jack was under Old Newsome's thumb and he would be giving up a lot, to return to another Old man, John Twist. The thought must be there all the time or he wouldn't keep saying it to his pa that he would bring Ennis there one day. Problem was, he couldn't depend on Ennis. And Ennis would never do anything to jeopardize Jack's marriage. He ain't queer, and certainly no homewrecker. Jack had to first move back on his own, before Ennis would commit. Jack could only move back if he saw some sign of commitment from Ennis. Catch-22. Stalemate. Nothing changed.
If only...
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See, to me, the Ennis who's bragging about "putting the blocks" to Cassie isn't the same Ennis that put the blocks away. He'd clearly been with Cassie for a while...why stop all of a sudden? The only thing we see on screen (cuz Cassie was barely a blip in the story) is the final confrontation. So, to me, the final confrontation rang a bell that couldn't be unrung and for him to continue to "put blocks" to Cassie would make Ennis a cad and inhuman...someone Ennis isn't. Lost, confused, torn to shreds emotionally, yes. But he's not an insensitive cad who'd use someone when he came to realize that's exactly what he's doing.
And again, the short story and the movie left a lot out of the intervening 15 years. But you'd think that at some point between the reunion and the final confrontation, Jack would've brought up the issue of spending more time together again. And it wasn't Texas or nothing, or Lightning Flat or nothing. There would have been permutations that would have brought them closer to each other geographically, emotionally, and physically without the all or almost-nothing that they had. Is that what we're supposed to infer is what AP meant by "torqued things back up"...that they did discuss this a lot and either (a) they never thought of a middle compromise or (b) Ennis never agreed to even that much?
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See, to me, the Ennis who's bragging about "putting the blocks" to Cassie isn't the same Ennis that put the blocks away. He'd clearly been with Cassie for a while...why stop all of a sudden? The only thing we see on screen (cuz Cassie was barely a blip in the story) is the final confrontation. So, to me, the final confrontation rang a bell that couldn't be unrung and for him to continue to "put blocks" to Cassie would make Ennis a cad and inhuman...someone Ennis isn't. Lost, confused, torn to shreds emotionally, yes. But he's not an insensitive cad who'd use someone when he came to realize that's exactly what he's doing.
I don't see Ennis as so clearly delineated, cad or not cad (interesting word btw: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cad).
For example, in 'em early days, he and Alma was in a marriage, and he tried to do right by her, playing in the snow, movies, etc, but he was clearly using her in his fantasies with Jack, e.g. the night after Alma asked him to move to Riverton. The relationship Ennis had with Alma and Cassie is more complex than just using them or not. On the one hand, Ennis tries to do right by them, as he was brought up to do, treating them with respect and fulfilling the role of husband and father. On the other hand, he yearns for what is not possible, being with Jack. The frustration comes out in anger, and apathy, i.e. the Saturday night on the couch, all the drinking.
By the time, they were divorced, and Cassie moved in on him at the bar, Ennis had given up on women and was just living from one meet to another, waiting for the time to be with Jack. It might seem like a short leash to Jack, but it was the only thing in the world for Ennis. He lived during 'em days to spend time in the mountains. Like the old saying goes: live to work, or work to live. To Ennis at that time, life was only worth living when he was with Jack. When Cassie came along, he saw a bit of Jack in her, the joie d'vivre, the carefree attitude. He responded by going along with her, having a bit of fun.
The final confrontation brought out feelings that Ennis couldn't ignore, made him realize that he and Jack were more than just a couple buddies having a bit of fun. He finally realized that he could never quit Jack. So he quit Cassie. But he didn't know how to say no to her, only how to avoid her. I think Ennis also thought Cassie was just having a bit of fun, and didn't realize she was in love, until the diner. Ennis didn't know what love was.
And again, the short story and the movie left a lot out of the intervening 15 years. But you'd think that at some point between the reunion and the final confrontation, Jack would've brought up the issue of spending more time together again. And it wasn't Texas or nothing, or Lightning Flat or nothing. There would have been permutations that would have brought them closer to each other geographically, emotionally, and physically without the all or almost-nothing that they had. Is that what we're supposed to infer is what AP meant by "torqued things back up"...that they did discuss this a lot and either (a) they never thought of a middle compromise or (b) Ennis never agreed to even that much?
It's hard to say what transpired between them during all 'em years. What do they do when they get together, a few times a year? Perhaps the brilliance of their infrequent coupling kept them too busy to do much talking. After the first few times of proposal by Jack and rejection by Ennis, I suspect Jack was too dejected to do much proposing. Certainly after the divorce, Jack understood Ennis wasn't about to budge. There's also that alimony and child support. Ennis felt trapped. The river scene, when Ennis asked if Jack ever felt, that everyone knew, was also indicative of their communication during all 'em intervening years. They weren't the talkative sort. We need to remember that Annie Proulx wrote about rural life, and these two ranch hands were just two guys from the poorest parts in the opposite ends of the state. Ennis never finished high school, and Jack probably wasn't the scholastic sort either. They were smart in their own ways, and fitted each other perfectly, but they never felt fit in with the rest of the world. They don't see the many options that others, in a similar situation, might see. To them, it was either doing it out in the middle of nowhere, or move to Denver, leaving behind everything they knew. Ennis for sure was too scared to do anything of the sort. Jack was happy in Texas, at least in the beginning when he could have a playmate in the young Bobby, teaching him to drive, being looked up to. Once Bobby became the same snob like his grandpa, Jack was probably drinking even more. That's another problem with 'em both. With all 'em drinking, and toking towards the end, I doubt they had enough sense left to find alternatives. They were just cruising on automatic.
Jack was ambitious enough to want to go some place warm, but even something simple like that, met with the immovable object in Ennis.
Jack may have been the irresistible force to Ennis, but Ennis was the immovable object. Nothing changed.
The real tragedy was that by the time Ennis sent that last post card, he was budging, ready to move. Missed opportunities.
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:t) :clap: I've been away from posting in the forum for awhile but did peek in every now and then to see what was going on.
I ran across this series of posts between jeddibarrister, lancecowboy and myprivatejack. I really owe you folk a lot; so much of what you said brought home to me once again how much the movie and ss with those wonderful people in it mean to me and probably always will. What is so amazing, I think, is that BBM has become such a 'story for the ages', impacting so many, many people in so many different ways. Anyway, I really enjoyed and appreciated all the thoughts you guys took the time to put in writing to share with each other and all of us. My thanks again and again to each of you. Richard
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You are #$# Richard. I really enjoyed the discussion here, too. Thanks, Jedibarrister, for bringing a refreshed look.
My PBS has definitely progressed from the stage where Brokeback Mountain was in my every thought, past the stage where my emotions were hinged on every aspect of the movie and shortstory, to the point where the various scenes and anecdotes in the movie and shortstory have become a part of me, part of the vocabulary of the heart. They live quietly in the background, without imposing their intensity on my life, but lending strength to my soul when applicable.
There no end to love that's a force of nature.
And no forgetting the debt of gratitude to all those who created this inspired masterpiece.
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:t) :clap: I've been away from posting in the forum for awhile but did peek in every now and then to see what was going on.
I ran across this series of posts between jeddibarrister, lancecowboy and myprivatejack. I really owe you folk a lot; so much of what you said brought home to me once again how much the movie and ss with those wonderful people in it mean to me and probably always will. What is so amazing, I think, is that BBM has become such a 'story for the ages', impacting so many, many people in so many different ways. Anyway, I really enjoyed and appreciated all the thoughts you guys took the time to put in writing to share with each other and all of us. My thanks again and again to each of you. Richard
Thanks also for taking the time to post your thoughts and impressions, Richard. And yes: a "story for the ages" it truly is.
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The final confrontation brought out feelings that Ennis couldn't ignore, made him realize that he and Jack were more than just a couple buddies having a bit of fun. He finally realized that he could never quit Jack. So he quit Cassie. But he didn't know how to say no to her, only how to avoid her. I think Ennis also thought Cassie was just having a bit of fun, and didn't realize she was in love, until the diner. Ennis didn't know what love was.
and
The real tragedy was that by the time Ennis sent that last post card, he was budging, ready to move. Missed opportunities.
I would like to think that Ennis was about ready to make a change, however slight. I on some level would need that so that Ennis, as a character, could grow and understand. But in the intervening months between the FC and the deceased postcard, we have no indication that Ennis tried contacting Jack in any way to say "bud, let's talk about options" or anything. He went back to work, and spent the rest of Spring and the Summer and early Fall about his life, never reached out to Jack (the book mentioned one phone call..about the divorce...before he called Jack's house and talked to Lureen) until he sent the post card to set up the trip that never was. The ONLY thing we have is in the movie...dumping Cassie. Even that much growth or change isn't hinted at in the story. It's not until the scene in the trailer, when Ennis wakes up from his dreams of Jack that we finally get in his head and feel his change/regret/etc.
So as much as I'd like to think/hope/believe Ennis was on the precipice of change prior to Jack's death, the movie only hints at it and the book, unless I'm wrong, leaves even the hint out.
But...as I loved the Star Wars Infinities comic book series...I always like to think "what if". What if they talked more, what if Jack threatened to quit him a couple of years earlier, what if what if what if....
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and
I would like to think that Ennis was about ready to make a change, however slight. I on some level would need that so that Ennis, as a character, could grow and understand. But in the intervening months between the FC and the deceased postcard, we have no indication that Ennis tried contacting Jack in any way to say "bud, let's talk about options" or anything. He went back to work, and spent the rest of Spring and the Summer and early Fall about his life, never reached out to Jack (the book mentioned one phone call..about the divorce...before he called Jack's house and talked to Lureen) until he sent the post card to set up the trip that never was. The ONLY thing we have is in the movie...dumping Cassie. Even that much growth or change isn't hinted at in the story. It's not until the scene in the trailer, when Ennis wakes up from his dreams of Jack that we finally get in his head and feel his change/regret/etc.
So as much as I'd like to think/hope/believe Ennis was on the precipice of change prior to Jack's death, the movie only hints at it and the book, unless I'm wrong, leaves even the hint out.
I think we can agree that the Ennis in the movie is significantly different from the Ennis in the shortstory, especially in the end.
I don't recall if the shortstory talked about the wine that Ennis used to toast Junior's wedding announcement, but I seem to recall the wine was "leftover from those days with Cassie" (paraphrasing here). I believe Ennis did change after the final confrontation, exorcised his demons ("I ain't queer") and was ready to move towards Jack, and away from Cassie. Instead of brooding over beer after beer in the bar, Ennis was quietly finishing his apple pie in the diner, alone and waiting. He could have been waiting for the time in November, to meet with Jack, before talking some more. For someone as reticent as him, that's a big step already.
In the movie, we never saw the Ennis that was in the short story's prologue, the one dreaming the days away, pissing in the sink, hoping for another dream with Jack. Instead, we are left with a different impression, of the Ennis who interacted with Jack's Ma, who interacted with Junior. In those short moments of few words, much more was communicated that were not in the stark and desolate short story.
But...as I loved the Star Wars Infinities comic book series...I always like to think "what if". What if they talked more, what if Jack threatened to quit him a couple of years earlier, what if what if what if....
I believe much of the what if scenarios have been covered by fan fictions. Since I don't follow these, I will leave others to advice you in the threads which cover the particular scenario you mentioned. I am sure there are some stories there.
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I don't recall if the shortstory talked about the wine that Ennis used to toast Junior's wedding announcement, but I seem to recall the wine was "leftover from those days with Cassie" (paraphrasing here). I believe Ennis did change after the final confrontation, exorcised his demons ("I ain't queer") and was ready to move towards Jack, and away from Cassie. Instead of brooding over beer after beer in the bar, Ennis was quietly finishing his apple pie in the diner, alone and waiting. He could have been waiting for the time in November, to meet with Jack, before talking some more. For someone as reticent as him, that's a big step already.
In the movie, we never saw the Ennis that was in the short story's prologue, the one dreaming the days away, pissing in the sink, hoping for another dream with Jack. Instead, we are left with a different impression, of the Ennis who interacted with Jack's Ma, who interacted with Junior. In those short moments of few words, much more was communicated that were not in the stark and desolate short story.
Cassie was entirely the work of the screenplay...so was her wine. The short story only referenced a waitress. Also, I'm fairly sure there's no sweet "I'm getting married' scene in the trailer requiring wine of any kind. The Ennis in the prologue was deeply sad and essentially waiting for life to be over...one dream at a time. The Ennis in the diner wasn't too far from that and he hadn't learned of Jack's death yet. The Ennis in the movie seemed to have hope: a relationship with his children, the open road outside his trailer, possibilities, etc.
Desolate is the perfect word for the written Ennis. And in the diner, I still think that Ennis was set on his path. He had firm ideas of how things could and couldn't be. He lived for the memories and those 2 or 3 weeks. He wasn't going to change and he felt Jack wouldn't abandon him. The FC got him to drop Cassie, I'm sure. But that was an internal change...admitting he's not for women. But it wasn't until Jack died, IMO, that Ennis realized that all the time he lived in fear of death, all this time he denied himself Jack so he would stay alive, he realized he hadn't LIVED... That's the essence of his regret. His life grew on, but he never lived a life worth living.
I started a thread in the Short Story section on the "Jack, I swear" line....I'd love people's thoughts on that line.
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Desolate is the perfect word for the written Ennis. And in the diner, I still think that Ennis was set on his path. He had firm ideas of how things could and couldn't be. He lived for the memories and those 2 or 3 weeks. He wasn't going to change and he felt Jack wouldn't abandon him. The FC got him to drop Cassie, I'm sure. But that was an internal change...admitting he's not for women. But it wasn't until Jack died, IMO, that Ennis realized that all the time he lived in fear of death, all this time he denied himself Jack so he would stay alive, he realized he hadn't LIVED... That's the essence of his regret. His life grew on, but he never lived a life worth living.
I started a thread in the Short Story section on the "Jack, I swear" line....I'd love people's thoughts on that line.
Very good points. I'll try to read your Short Story tonight or tomorrow.
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No...it's a post in the AP Short Story & Screenplay page (as opposed to the Characters, Quotes and Scenes age we're in now) and the thread is called "Jack, I Swear". Basically, it seeks comments on what that meant. I'm not nearly talented enough for fan fiction.
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Cassie was entirely the work of the screenplay...so was her wine. The short story only referenced a waitress. Also, I'm fairly sure there's no sweet "I'm getting married' scene in the trailer requiring wine of any kind. The Ennis in the prologue was deeply sad and essentially waiting for life to be over...one dream at a time. The Ennis in the diner wasn't too far from that and he hadn't learned of Jack's death yet. The Ennis in the movie seemed to have hope: a relationship with his children, the open road outside his trailer, possibilities, etc.
I believe you are correct. Cassie was an invention in the movie. The passage I quoted was probably scene directions from the written script.
Desolate is the perfect word for the written Ennis. And in the diner, I still think that Ennis was set on his path. He had firm ideas of how things could and couldn't be. He lived for the memories and those 2 or 3 weeks. He wasn't going to change and he felt Jack wouldn't abandon him. The FC got him to drop Cassie, I'm sure. But that was an internal change...admitting he's not for women. But it wasn't until Jack died, IMO, that Ennis realized that all the time he lived in fear of death, all this time he denied himself Jack so he would stay alive, he realized he hadn't LIVED... That's the essence of his regret. His life grew on, but he never lived a life worth living.
I started a thread in the Short Story section on the "Jack, I swear" line....I'd love people's thoughts on that line.
I am in agreement with your feelings expressed above. Ennis was afraid to love, in fear of the death promised by his father's homophobia. The final confrontation put his feelings into focus, and he realized that just as much as Jack couldn't quit him, he couldn't quit Jack either. More than that, he didn't want to quit Jack, ever. So he quit Cassie.
I will try and find that thread. I am glad you joined the forum and triggered so much refreshing discussion.
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Welcome Jedi...it's always great to get new members & keep the topics flowing.
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aw shucks :t) This is why I took so much literature in college that I could've had a minor if the business school permitted it. I love discussing literature. I also loved astronomy and took way too many credits there too...alas again without a minor degree to show for it.
Looks like my topic from the short story got combined with a much older thread in the Quotes Characters Scenes board. So I posted there.
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There's no way that Jack could have ever "quit" Ennis. I definitely believe they would have continued seeing each other a few times a year had Jack not died. Jack's frustration with Ennis stemmed from his immense love for Ennis. He was upset that Ennis had not listened to his heart and had let his fear control his life which in turn had denied them the life they deserved together. But the love they have, a love that pure, that deep, that powerful, is something that is eternal, something that can never fade away. Jack would never ever be able to forget about his soulmate Ennis no matter what meaningless relationships (e.g. the foreman) he distracted himself with to numb the pain he felt that he couldn't be with his true love, Ennis. Remember how Jack never gave up and kept searching till he found Ennis again after four years? His "I wish I could quit you" remark was one of frustration, not meaning that he really wished he could just stop loving Ennis, but meaning that he his love for Ennis was causing him so much pain because Ennis was denying them what they deserved. But in such a story, Jack ultimately had to die for Ennis to realize how huge of a mistake he'd made in not listening to his heart. It had to happen for him to finally realize that he should have never let fear control him and he should have just listened to Jack and listened to his heart, instead of doing what was expected of him whilst being miserable just to please others and society.
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this is a movie all about ifs buts , perhaps i guess. In your opinion what could have been the only thing that
1. jack could have done
or (not and!)
2. ennis could have done
for things to have turned in a positive way.
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this is a movie all about ifs buts , perhaps i guess. In your opinion what could have been the only thing that
1. jack could have done
or (not and!)
2. ennis could have done
for things to have turned in a positive way.
Haveacrush to answer your question, I think first of all that the thread of the fanfiction can give you a multitude of possibilities about your If only. A thing is sure concerning our boys, they have great difficulties to express their feelings, especially from the moment were both fell in love. I don't think that they experienced real love before, maybe Jack did because he was deeply loved by his mother, but Ennis I doubt it. Moreover Ennis was in denial with his own sexuality, difficult therefore for him to express his feelings. In his mind what happened with Jack on Brokeback was not a love affair, but just a thing between two cowboys, it was just great fun and nothing more, and when Ennis collapsed in the alley, he didn't even know why he felt so bad and so sick! It took him more than one year to realize that something great had happened to him: love! even if it's still difficult for him to recognize this simple, natural fact. So now to answer to the only if question I will say:
a) If only Ennis's dad had not been homophobic, if Ennis had been loved, he would have had a beter understanding of his own emotions of love
b) If only Jack had known on Brokeback the child trauma of Ennis, he would have found the words to reassure Ennis that what they had found together was great and that was love, not just a small thing
c) If only Joe Aguirre had not shorten their stay on Brokeback, they would have had more time to understand each others feelings
d) If only Jack instead of lassoing Ennis had talked to him, Ennis would have been able to open up
e) If only Jack had seen Ennis collapsed in the alley, he would have understood that what he felt was also shared by Ennis
f) If only they could have both grew up in an non homophobic society, Ennis wouldn't have been scared to live with the love of his life!
They shouldn't have parted on this summer 63, but they did because too much societal and also educational factors were against them, and this the tragedy of Brokeback! :-\\
But now I realized that you asked only one thing! So if I have to choose only one thing in my list, it will be my last answer, if only they had both grown up in an non homophobic society, Ennis wouldn't have been scared to live with the love of his life: Jack Twist!
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Strange Haveacrush is not online anymore! And what about the other 32 Brokies? Wake up! ^o It's a great thread God da*** Any other thoughts???
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Strange Haveacrush is not online anymore! And what about the other 32 Brokies? Wake up! ^o It's a great thread God da*** Any other thoughts???
i will vote the one that says if jack had seen Ennis breaking down in the alley
i think you have taken this discussion to another (higher ! better i mean) level ......... like if the guys were brought up in a different society, i was however restricting this discussion to situations from movie only.
well my only if would also include - ennis giving in to jack post divorce
or what if the final confrontation scene had been more fruitful , i mean just listen to ennis opening up the way he did in the confrontation scene .... he was actually reacting to Jack-seeing-the-other-woman(guy in this case)
he was JEALOUS !!! this could have been a really chance
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helllllllooooooooo anybody ??? ^o
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i will vote the one that says if jack had seen Ennis breaking down in the alley
i think you have taken this discussion to another (higher ! better i mean) level ......... like if the guys were brought up in a different society, i was however restricting this discussion to situations from movie only.
well my only if would also include - ennis giving in to jack post divorce
or what if the final confrontation scene had been more fruitful , i mean just listen to ennis opening up the way he did in the confrontation scene .... he was actually reacting to Jack-seeing-the-other-woman(guy in this case)
he was JEALOUS !!! this could have been a really chance
I agree with you concerning the last confrontation, Ennis was completly jealous, it could have been as you said a great opportunity for Jack, it was now or never, he could have pushed things a little bit more, give Ennis an ultimatum, such as: make up your mind right now, I have waited 20 years, be with me, or I leave you forever! The problem with Jack is that, in my opinion, he is not the pushy type, and has never been the pushy type, maybe the reason is that he was too afraid to loose Ennis? I think also that Jack had his fear too, he was not in denial like Ennis, but he was enable to verbalize his love for Ennis too. He was pretty close when he said the day before the confrontation: sometimes I miss you so much, I can't hardly stand it But what did he get back from Ennis? nothing, not a single word! I really found Ennis in this scene heartless. The trouble with Ennis was not only his child trauma, but the fact that he didn't understand the depth of Jack's love until Jack's death and the discovery of the shirts. I have always wondered why Jack waited so long to have a real confrontation with Ennis, but as I said he was not the pushy type, maybe because of his own fears, or maybe in giving Ennis an ultimatum the risk of loosing him forever! But it's just my humble opinion! :ghug:
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yes i very much can relate to that scene ... well heartless was my first reaction but after a second thought i think there was something else. Ennis was heights of introvert , may be certain things he took for granted - he did not understand that he has to convey or express. May be he thought he had "done enough" and doing enough (the reunion kiss and all their bbm trips). Or he was so overwhelmed that he thought the other person felt the same way ... although the situation was " i am not you ennis" may be he had not realized it in that way.
Some people do feel in that way - doesnt really mean "less " or "lack" of love or heartlessness.
About the other point you raised "but the fact that he didn't understand the depth of Jack's love until Jack's death and the discovery of the shirts" - really is VERY thought provoking..another topic almost
amazing huh ? so many years , heath ledger no more still we are finding areas to ponder...
ur thoughts
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Do you think this movie is Ennis' great love and not Jack's? Because we're not talking about who Ennis is going to choose, we're talking about who Jack is going to choose, because he's a man with a big appetite, and by the way, when it comes to Cassie etc. we think Ennis is in love with Jack, but when it comes to Jack we say he loves Randalli, but there's a saying, you grow old with what's next to you and you die with what's on your mind, and Jack Sweet lived his life that way.