Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: christie wood on Mar 13, 2006, 05:54 PM
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I love the coat that Jack wears on brokeback, and it got me thinking about how the clothes that Jack (and Ennis) wore defined their characters, just as much as what they said and did. The shirts, the hats, the coats - they all have, in my mind anyway, come to symbolise in some way who Jack and Ennis were. When I think of Jack's coat, I think of the falling asleep like a horse scene - being kept warm by not only the coat but by Ennis's love - and when I think of Ennis's coat,I think of the alleyway scene, when Ennis can't keep upright anymore after Jack drives away.
Sometimes a thought in your head doesn't always come out right when put into words, but would be interested to know if anyone else has thought of their clothes in this way? Any thoughts on Jack's coat in particular would be really welcome!
If this has already been discussed on a previous thread, apologies! :-[
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christie wood, I recall an article that was posted concerning clothing in BBM. Have you read it.
The clothing in the beginning of the film is particularly poigniant. The contrasting colors, the worn out areas, the faded and muted shades, and the sparse wardrobes (just a spare shirt, perhaps, for each of them) add a certain poetry to the scenes up on the mountain
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It has occurred to me before how THIN and impractical Ennis' coat is for a summer on Brokeback - but i suppose this is to expected considering how poor he was. Jack had that one summer under his belt so he knew what to expect hence that lovely warm looking coat. I think you may be onto something here, particularly in regards to the flashback scene - its a scene that for me just radiates warmth and protection, the fire, Jack's lovely snuggly (sorry patehetic word - oh, and spelling!) And Ennis protectively holding onto Jack.
And its just occurred to me, when they part after the mountain - doesn't Ennis look exposed and vulnerable as hes walking down the road - in that thin, impractical jacket? ;)
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I love the coat that Jack wears on brokeback, and it got me thinking about how the clothes that Jack (and Ennis) wore defined their characters, just as much as what they said and did. The shirts, the hats, the coats - they all have, in my mind anyway, come to symbolize in some way who Jack and Ennis were. When I think of Jack's coat, I think of the falling asleep like a horse scene - being kept warm by not only the coat but by Ennis's love - and when I think of Ennis's coat,I think of the alleyway scene, when Ennis can't keep upright anymore after Jack drives away.
Christie I think you see something that is very deliberate in the movie. The clothing certainly was used to define each of the characters in the movie with subtle brilliance. Jack's coat speaks of assurance and comfort in himself while Ennis's coat and clothes say something else altogether. Last night I was noticing in the last scene together how Jack is wearing this padded down coat, a fine pair of jeans and shirt beneath it and a nice pair of boots. Ennis is dressed in a cheap corduroy jacket, threadbear jeans and worn boots. What do you think that says?
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Jack has had an easier ife than Ennis, he has more money due to his wife, and is more in style. Ennis life seems to go downhill after BBM, he wears the same clothes until they are worn out. But yes the clothes are reflective of the era, and everything from hats to shirts to jeans to boots is tailored to their relative status in the period, another detail not overlooked.
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I noticed last night that the tents change on each meeting too. As Jack has more money the camping equipment becomes better. Just an observation.
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Ennis's shirts and coats are also too small for him. The arms don't cover his. Poor Ennis. You just want to take him under your wing.
- Nancy
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Ennis's shirts and coats are also too small for him. The arms don't cover his. Poor Ennis. You just want to take him under your wing.
- Nancy
Haw... :'(
You got me Nancy, it's exactly what I feel for him.
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Yes, that's why Ennis keeps on tucking those shirts in -- all the time. Too small for him, for sure...
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I love the coat that Jack wears on brokeback, and it got me thinking about how the clothes that Jack (and Ennis) wore defined their characters, just as much as what they said and did. The shirts, the hats, the coats - they all have, in my mind anyway, come to symbolize in some way who Jack and Ennis were. When I think of Jack's coat, I think of the falling asleep like a horse scene - being kept warm by not only the coat but by Ennis's love - and when I think of Ennis's coat,I think of the alleyway scene, when Ennis can't keep upright anymore after Jack drives away.
Christie I think you see something that is very deliberate in the movie. The clothing certainly was used to define each of the characters in the movie with subtle brilliance. Jack's coat speaks of assurance and comfort in himself while Ennis's coat and clothes say something else altogether. Last night I was noticing in the last scene together how Jack is wearing this padded down coat, a fine pair of jeans and shirt beneath it and a nice pair of boots. Ennis is dressed in a cheap corduroy jacket, threadbear jeans and worn boots. What do you think that says?
There was so much subtle brilliance in this film, and I agree with you about this aspect of it. The clothes symbolise so much about their separate lives too, don't they? Jack would have given up all the finest jeans and shirts he owned if he could have had Ennis, and Ennis's wasted life is so obvious in his worn out clothes and stark surroundings he called home.
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There was so much subtle brilliance in this film, and I agree with you about this aspect of it. The clothes symbolise so much about their separate lives too, don't they? Jack would have given up all the finest jeans and shirts he owned if he could have had Ennis, and Ennis's wasted life is so obvious in his worn out clothes and stark surroundings he called home.
I think you are right on with this observation. Is it possible that to a certain degree Ennis was living in a world of self-pity in those last few years together? There are times I felt like he was expressing an "It's me against the world" kind of attitude, stubborn and defiant and unwilling to accept that there might be alternatives. It frustrated Jack to distraction but I doubt he would ever have given up on Ennis.
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There was so much subtle brilliance in this film, and I agree with you about this aspect of it. The clothes symbolise so much about their separate lives too, don't they? Jack would have given up all the finest jeans and shirts he owned if he could have had Ennis, and Ennis's wasted life is so obvious in his worn out clothes and stark surroundings he called home.
I think you are right on with this observation. Is it possible that to a certain degree Ennis was living in a world of self-pity in those last few years together? There are times I felt like he was expressing an "It's me against the world" kind of attitude, stubborn and defiant and unwilling to accept that there might be alternatives. It frustrated Jack to distraction but I doubt he would ever have given up on Ennis.
Yeah, I do agree with you to a certain extent - Ennis had kept his love for Jack hidden all those years, because of how he felt it would be seen in the eyes of the world, so he'd learnt to be stubborn and defiant, even if it broke Jack's heart every time (the post-divorce scene being a prime example).
Two lines from Ennis sum this up I think:
"If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it"
"If you ain't got nothing, you don't need nothing"
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Well,this subject of clothes is just one more fascinating detail to observe: I was fascinated by Jack's increase in luxuries as the story builds: his outer world as seen in his trucks and jacket, "improve" as he becomes the successful salesman, in contrast to Ennis' world which is always just this side of poverty......yet Jack's inner world deteriorates as he reaches his threshold in the last scene with Ennis who, in his worn, ill fitting clothes, is in marked contrast to Jack.
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Well,this subject of clothes is just one more fascinating detail to observe: I was fascinated by Jack's increase in luxuries as the story builds: his outer world as seen in his trucks and jacket, "improve" as he becomes the successful salesman, in contrast to Ennis' world which is always just this side of poverty......yet Jack's inner world deteriorates as he reaches his threshold in the last scene with Ennis who, in his worn, ill fitting clothes, is in marked contrast to Jack.
Poverty and want are very powerful symbols. To see both of them overlaid on the stoic and ever so enigmatic Ennis makes an even a more powerful symbol: 'You don't need nothing if you have nothing' (I paraphrase).
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Yes, that line does reverberate; If you have nothing, you need nothing, and you have nothing to lose: And that word nothing is so heartbreaking when Ennis says to Jack, You made me this way.....I'm nothing. Jack, with his high quality clothes, has his material needs, yet is painfully aware of his soulful and sexual needs; Ennis, who can't find himself in the straight or "queer" world, feels zero at the bone. It's just too heartbreaking for words.
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Yes, that line does reverberate; If you have nothing, you need nothing, and you have nothing to lose: And that word nothing is so heartbreaking when Ennis says to Jack, You made me this way.....I'm nothing. Jack, with his high quality clothes, has his material needs, yet is painfully aware of his soulful and sexual needs; Ennis, who can't find himself in the staight or "queer" world, feels zero at the bone. It's just too heartbreaking forwords.
Stephen, thank you for the posts. A discussion starting with Jack's coat leading to a meditation on 'nothingness'. And people wonder why we love BBM so much...
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Yes, that line does reverberate; If you have nothing, you need nothing, and you have nothing to lose: And that word nothing is so heartbreaking when Ennis says to Jack, You made me this way.....I'm nothing. Jack, with his high quality clothes, has his material needs, yet is painfully aware of his soulful and sexual needs; Ennis, who can't find himself in the staight or "queer" world, feels zero at the bone. It's just too heartbreaking forwords.
Stephen, thank you for the posts. A discussion starting with Jack's coat leading to a meditation on 'nothingness'. And people wonder why we love BBM so much...
It is amazing how one thought on one aspect of this film can lead to so many brilliant and astute observations. Just when you think you've analalysed every scene as much as you can, something else springs up and takes you on another exciting journey to enlightenment!!! This is one of the (very, very many) reasons I love BBM so much, and love this forum so much. I think I'd go mad if I didn't have here to discuss, dissect and debate all the wonderful aspects of BBM.
BTW, was Jack's coat in the closet when Ennis discovered the shirts? I know there were shirts hanging up, but can't now recall seeing the coat.
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Yes, that line does reverberate; If you have nothing, you need nothing, and you have nothing to lose: And that word nothing is so heartbreaking when Ennis says to Jack, You made me this way.....I'm nothing. Jack, with his high quality clothes, has his material needs, yet is painfully aware of his soulful and sexual needs; Ennis, who can't find himself in the staight or "queer" world, feels zero at the bone. It's just too heartbreaking forwords.
Stephen, thank you for the posts. A discussion starting with Jack's coat leading to a meditation on 'nothingness'. And people wonder why we love BBM so much...
It is amazing how one thought on one aspect of this film can lead to so many brilliant and astute observations. Just when you think you've analalysed every scene as much as you can, something else springs up and takes you on another exciting journey to enlightenment!!! This is one of the (very, very many) reasons I love BBM so much, and love this forum so much. I think I'd go mad if I didn't have here to discuss, dissect and debate all the wonderful aspects of BBM.
BTW, was Jack's coat in the closet when Ennis discovered the shirts? I know there were shirts hanging up, but can't now recall seeing the coat.
Yes, the coat was the first piece of clothing he brushes his hand over when he went to the closet.... then the boots, then the shirts
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Yes, that line does reverberate; If you have nothing, you need nothing, and you have nothing to lose: And that word nothing is so heartbreaking when Ennis says to Jack, You made me this way.....I'm nothing. Jack, with his high quality clothes, has his material needs, yet is painfully aware of his soulful and sexual needs; Ennis, who can't find himself in the staight or "queer" world, feels zero at the bone. It's just too heartbreaking forwords.
Stephen, thank you for the posts. A discussion starting with Jack's coat leading to a meditation on 'nothingness'. And people wonder why we love BBM so much...
Now I'm going to have to start considering the nothing symbolism. :-\ Damn, but I love it! ;D
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BTW, was Jack's coat in the closet when Ennis discovered the shirts? I know there were shirts hanging up, but can't now recall seeing the coat.
No, the green plaid coat was not in the closet. There were two other coats but not the green plaid one.
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BTW, was Jack's coat in the closet when Ennis discovered the shirts? I know there were shirts hanging up, but can't now recall seeing the coat.
No, the green plaid coat was not in the closet. There were two other coats but not the green plaid one.
I thought that too, although my copy is pretty dark, i'm sure i saw a red and white one, but couldn't see the Brokeback one. I also love the brown one he wore in the 'it could be like this...always' scene, but i guess that would be in Texas.
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I also love the brown one he wore in the 'it could be like this...always' scene, but i guess that would be in Texas.
The brown one was pretty popular back then. I had a brown one and a tan one. They were sheepskin lined and nice and warm. Had gloves to match.
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Yes, that line does reverberate; If you have nothing, you need nothing, and you have nothing to lose: And that word nothing is so heartbreaking when Ennis says to Jack, You made me this way.....I'm nothing. Jack, with his high quality clothes, has his material needs, yet is painfully aware of his soulful and sexual needs; Ennis, who can't find himself in the straight or "queer" world, feels zero at the bone. It's just too heartbreaking for words.
One of my favorite moments is when Ennis says about having nothing to his daughter, he seems so much more at peace about it. I actually use that line now, I runs through my head when I start whining.
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I also love the brown one he wore in the 'it could be like this...always' scene, but i guess that would be in Texas.
The brown one was pretty popular back then. I had a brown one and a tan one. They were sheepskin lined and nice and warm. Had gloves to match.
Always struck me in that scene the diffferences between them - Jack looking very well turned out with his neatly combed hair and his smart clothes - looking very well-to-do, and Ennis looking like no time has passed - he's still that poor boy with the worn out clothes that we saw on the mountain 4 years previous.
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How about 20 years previously! Now I'll just have to wait for the DVD to search for some of these details in clothes and to re analyze eveything else we've discussed! Can't wait.
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No, the green plaid coat was not in the closet. There were two other coats but not the green plaid one.
I thought that too, although my copy is pretty dark, i'm sure i saw a red and white one, but couldn't see the Brokeback one. I also love the brown one he wore in the 'it could be like this...always' scene, but i guess that would be in Texas.
The coat definately was not the green plaid one but you are right, it had some red in it. Not sure about the white but you are probably right on that.
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The coat definately was not the green plaid one but you are right, it had some red in it. Not sure about the white but you are probably right on that.
Here is the answer.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe359%2FPatriotOne%2FCoatInCloset.jpg&hash=dd3ed0662955f03820f09666379ca5978606b9cb)
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Well, you certainly come through with the supporting detail, Patriot! Thank you for yet another one-frame photo. Is your down-load of BBM as clear as a DVD would be? Stephen.
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Well, you certainly come through with the supporting detail, Patriot! Thank you for yet another one-frame photo. Is your down-load of BBM as clear as a DVD would be? Stephen.
Well Stephen, I don't know. I've never seen a DVD. But you got to remember a computer screen is no high deff picture. Yet, it sure is good quality on my computer.
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Always struck me in that scene the diffferences between them - Jack looking very well turned out with his neatly combed hair and his smart clothes - looking very well-to-do, and Ennis looking like no time has passed - he's still that poor boy with the worn out clothes that we saw on the mountain 4 years previous.
Yes, I noticed that too. Sometimes too small. Sleeves too short. Faded, thin, threadbare and worn in places... It occured to me too: Gosh, Ennis has not made any progress forward...he's still at that same place he was at way back on Brokeback Mountain that first summer with Jack... Still just chasing after "seasonal" work... Still probably just owning 2 shirts...
Poor, poor, Ennis. My heart breaks and I start crying whenever I think of him.
Besides that one line in the fight scene with Jack ("You forget what it's like being broke all the time."), we never really get to see how Ennis, (or Jack for that matter!), feel about this...
Has anyone else thought about this aspect?
sam
Here's Jack's Green Coat:
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg85.imageshack.us%2Fimg85%2F3259%2Fscoat7sw.jpg&hash=08465bb1e1b122f72a025ea963597fa7ec102a37)
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Here is the answer.
Now come on! Where did you get that picture. It is exactly as I saw it in my head when I made the above post. I'm not sure you are a genius but I know you are something. :-*
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Always struck me in that scene the diffferences between them - Jack looking very well turned out with his neatly combed hair and his smart clothes - looking very well-to-do, and Ennis looking like no time has passed - he's still that poor boy with the worn out clothes that we saw on the mountain 4 years previous.
Yes, I noticed that too. Sometimes too small. Sleeves too short. Threadbare and worn in places... It occured to me too: Gosh, Ennis has not made any progress forward...he's still at that same place he was at way back on Brokeback Mountain that first summer with Jack... Still just chasing after "seasonal" work... Still probably just owning 2 shirts...
Poor, poor, Ennis. My heart breaks and I start crying whenever I think of him.
Besides that one line in the fight scene with Jack ("You forget what it's like being broke all the time."), we never really get to see how Ennis, (or Jack for that matter!), feel about this...
Has anyone else thought about this aspect?
sam
I have wondered often why Jack didn't buy Ennis some nice clothes for his birthday or Christmas. But, I guess that would change the movie too much.
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I have wondered often why Jack didn't buy Ennis some nice clothes for his birthday or Christmas. But, I guess that would change the movie too much.
Never a viable option I think. These 2 tragic men never got to that point.
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I have wondered often why Jack didn't buy Ennis some nice clothes for his birthday or Christmas. But, I guess that would change the movie too much.
YES! Same here! I wondered about that TOO! I wonder why he never did that? Could it be that he didn't want Ennis to feel bad about being "poor"? (I mean: like...not wanting to rub his face in the fact? Did Jack feel 'guilty' for being well off?) I wonder...
Or was it more of a 'gay/not gay' thingy? (Men don't buy each other presents?) Hmmmm, I wonder...
What do you all think? I am curious to hear other opinions...
sam
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I have wondered often why Jack didn't buy Ennis some nice clothes for his birthday or Christmas. But, I guess that would change the movie too much.
YES! Same here! I wondered about that TOO! I wonder why he never did that? Could it be that he didn't want Ennis to feel bad about being "poor"? (I mean: like...not wanting to rub his face in the fact? Did Jack feel 'guilty' for being well off?) I wonder...
Or was it more of a 'gay/not gay' thingy? (Men don't buy each other presents?) Hmmmm, I wonder...
What do you all think? I am curious to hear other opinions...
sam
I think the answer to this is given by Ennis himself :
Ennis (to Jack): 'I don't need your money...I'm not in the poorhouse... SH*T!'
Ennis would never have accepted gifts of clothing or money from Jack. That wouldn't be Ennis....
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I think the answer to this is given by Ennis himself :
Ennis (to Jack): 'I don't need your money...I'm not in the poorhouse... SH*T!'
Ennis would never have accepted gifts of clothing or money from Jack. That wouldn't be Ennis....
Ahhhhhhhhhhh, wow! You are so right, tpe! Absolutely! I completely forgot that Ennis said that to Jack!
It all makes sense now...
Thanks!
sam
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Good point,tpe; just another reminder that every detail in the film can ultimately lead to another and eventually to supporting a particular notion....I recall well that line but only after you typed it out! Thank you.
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Thank you tpe. I think Ennis felt he had too much pride and integrity to accept anything from Jack - he would be a 'kept man'. We never saw Jack offer him anything again - he knew where the line was that couldn't be crossed. The sadness for me is Jack would have given everything up for Ennis - the money, the fine clothes - but i don't think Ennis would have ever let him make such a sacrifice.
What a film - every time you take away another layer it becomes more profound...and more heartwrenching :'( :'(
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Nicely said Aimi; every stone unturned in the film hides another insight ready to be discovered, and then just when you think there's nothing left to feel, the story becomes heart breaking once again.
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Or was it more of a 'gay/not gay' thingy? (Men don't buy each other presents?) Hmmmm, I wonder...
Sure men buy each other presents. Have you never worked in a place where you draw names from a "hat" at Christmas time and that is the person you buy a gift for? You could draw a male name then. In fact, I worked one place where they were all men. Didn't have a choice.
Here I am changing the movie again. :D
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Has anyone noticed this: After Jack's murder, Ennis goes to Jack's parents house and finds in Jack's closet his missing bloody shirt and Jack's blue shirt on top of it, on the same hanger, and in the closing scene in Ennis' trailer, after his daughter leaves and he folds up her forgotten sweater and puts it in his closet, the two shirts are hanging together, but this time Ennis' shirt is the one on top and Jack's shirt is underneath. I found that incredibly moving. I'm welling up right now....
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Has anyone noticed this: After Jack's murder, Ennis goes to Jack's parents house and finds in Jack's closet his missing bloody shirt and Jack's blue shirt on top of it, on the same hanger, and in the closing scene in Ennis' trailer, after his daughter leaves and he folds up her forgotten sweater and puts it in his closet, the two shirts are hanging together, but this time Ennis' shirt is the one on top and Jack's shirt is underneath. I found that incredibly moving. I'm welling up right now....
Yes. Heath Ledger, I believe, was the one who suggested that the exchange be done. Not so dure if I read this in an interview or in one of the earlier posts. It is a detail worthy of Proulx's story.
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Has anyone noticed this: After Jack's murder, Ennis goes to Jack's parents house and finds in Jack's closet his missing bloody shirt and Jack's blue shirt on top of it, on the same hanger, and in the closing scene in Ennis' trailer, after his daughter leaves and he folds up her forgotten sweater and puts it in his closet, the two shirts are hanging together, but this time Ennis' shirt is the one on top and Jack's shirt is underneath. I found that incredibly moving. I'm welling up right now....
Yes. Heath Ledger, I believe, was the one who suggested that the exchange be done. Not so dure if I read this in an interview or in one of the earlier posts. It is a detail worthy of Proulx's story.
Yeah I read that too, it was an actual quote from Diana Ossana when asked about that scene, if she'd been the one to change the shirts around and she said no, it was Heath's idea. That's how deep Heath was in to this film and this character - that kind of seemingly little thing just bowls me over.
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Has anyone noticed this: After Jack's murder, Ennis goes to Jack's parents house and finds in Jack's closet his missing bloody shirt and Jack's blue shirt on top of it, on the same hanger, and in the closing scene in Ennis' trailer, after his daughter leaves and he folds up her forgotten sweater and puts it in his closet, the two shirts are hanging together, but this time Ennis' shirt is the one on top and Jack's shirt is underneath. I found that incredibly moving. I'm welling up right now....
Yes. Heath Ledger, I believe, was the one who suggested that the exchange be done. Not so dure if I read this in an interview or in one of the earlier posts. It is a detail worthy of Proulx's story.
Yeah I read that too, it was an actual quote from Diana Ossana when asked about that scene, if she'd been the one to change the shirts around and she said no, it was Heath's idea. That's how deep Heath was in to this film and this character - that kind of seemingly little thing just bowls me over.
A bit OOT, but I also remember that in the last scene Ledger shot (the one where he go beaten up on Thanksgiving Night), he actually requested that it be done as a REAL fight. He wanted to feel the pain...and frustration. I believe he was truly moved on that last night before he was to depart the set forever...
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Has anyone noticed this: After Jack's murder, Ennis goes to Jack's parents house and finds in Jack's closet his missing bloody shirt and Jack's blue shirt on top of it, on the same hanger, and in the closing scene in Ennis' trailer, after his daughter leaves and he folds up her forgotten sweater and puts it in his closet, the two shirts are hanging together, but this time Ennis' shirt is the one on top and Jack's shirt is underneath. I found that incredibly moving. I'm welling up right now....
Yes. Heath Ledger, I believe, was the one who suggested that the exchange be done. Not so dure if I read this in an interview or in one of the earlier posts. It is a detail worthy of Proulx's story.
Yeah I read that too, it was an actual quote from Diana Ossana when asked about that scene, if she'd been the one to change the shirts around and she said no, it was Heath's idea. That's how deep Heath was in to this film and this character - that kind of seemingly little thing just bowls me over.
A bit OOT, but I also remember that in the last scene Ledger shot (the one where he go beaten up on Thanksgiving Night), he actually requested that it be done as a REAL fight. He wanted to feel the pain...and frustration. I believe he was truly moved on that last night before he was to depart the set forever...
I hadn't realised this was the last scene he shot. This scene always upsets me, because Ennis reacts to the beating like he deserves it, like it's his punishment for feeling the way he does about Jack....so he just gives in, and allows himself to be beaten to a pulp. :'(
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I hadn't realised this was the last scene he shot. This scene always upsets me, because Ennis reacts to the beating like he deserves it, like it's his punishment for feeling the way he does about Jack....so he just gives in, and allows himself to be beaten to a pulp. :'(
Yes, this was why he picked up a quarrel with a bigger guy. He felt he needed to be beaten at that moment.
The context is heartbreaking.
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god tpe dont get me started! it upsets me SO much to see Ennis on the ground and defenceless but that is how he feels he has to be because this is what he deserves
** sob **
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BBM is (among many other things!) a cautionary tale about what happens when love is hidden or denied. It tells the story of the unresolved love between Ennis and Jack, their struggles and regrets with the road not taken, and about the pain they cause for themselves and others in denying who they are. It's about the choices they have made that maybe say "yes" to one person, while at the same time, saying "no" to another...
After that awful scene with Alma in the kitchen after Thanksgiving dinner at her (new) place, I think that it was only then, that Ennis finally discovers the true extent of the damage and pain his long and secret relationship with Jack had actually caused Alma. Alma had been silent all those years about her feelings. Apparently, she had never mentioned any of this to him before...not even during their divorce...!) She had never ever even told him that little story about her note on his fishing line until that night...
I think that Ennis must have been sooooo in complete and utter shock after hearing all that she had had to say in that dramatic outpour of hers. I truly think that he didn't even have the slightest inkling that Alma "knew/or even suspected" anything of what he had with Jack. (Just in that particular way, I think that Ennis had always been pitifully "innocent".) Right up until that unexpected confrontation in front of the sink, where Alma suddenly releases all her pent up bitterness towards him, it had remained unbeknownst territory to him. It all seemed to fall on his shoulders that night simply "out-of-the-blue", and it surely caught him off his guard. It must have also been absolutely DEVASTATING for him to hear her call his lover: "Jack NASTY!".
I don't think that it was ever his intention to (purposely) hurt Alma. I think that he truly always meant to build a real and solid life with her. Life just dealt him out a bad hand of cards, and so it just didn't work out for him with Alma...
To have heard all she had to say that night must have immediately caused him so much pain and sorrow. He must have felt sooooooooo guilty for having caused her so much suffering, that he instantly leaves and actually WANTS someone to beat him up and cause HIM some pain in return for his past deeds against Alma. I know that this sounds twisted...but a man in pain...with a heart full of hurt and regret, often goes out and does strange things... And, if you ask me, I think he left the house that night, after the fight, in violent emotional turmoil, filled to the brim with anger, rage, disgust, (at himself?) and sorrow (for Alma?). Clearly intending to get either (wildly drunk) OR to get involved in a fight...ANY fight! Just to let out all his pent up emotions from that disastrous end of the evening...! (Alma: "Get out! Get out! You hear me, Ennis Del Mar? GET OUT!")
It was an unavoidable "explosion".... :-X
sam
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Again, Sam, a beautiful and cogent insight.
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Actually, Ennis was his own worst enemy. His constant paranoia and homophobia kept him in constant conflict and pain.
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Actually, Ennis was his own worst enemy. His constant paranoia and homophobia kept him in constant conflict and pain.
I most certainly agree with THAT! Poor, poor, poor little Ennis Del Mar! (Sam's heart breaks...)
sam
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BBM is (among many other things!) a cautionary tale about what happens when love is hidden or denied. It tells the story of the unresolved love between Ennis and Jack, their struggles and regrets with the road not taken, and the pain they cause for themselves and others in denying who they are.
After that awful scene with Alma in the kitchen after Thanksgiving dinner at her (new) place, I think that it was only then, that Ennis finally discovers the true extent of the damage and pain his year long relationship with Jack had actually caused Alma. Alma had been silent all those years about her feelings. Apparently, she had never mentioned any of this to him before...not even during their divorce...!) She had never ever even told him that story about her note on his fishing line until that night...
I think that Ennis must have been sooooo in complete and utter shock after hearing all that she had had to say in that dramatic outpour of hers. It must have also been absolutely DEVASTATING for him to hear her call his lover: "Jack NASTY!".
I don't think that it was ever his intention to hurt Alma.
To have heard all of this must have immediately caused him so much pain and sorrow. He must have felt sooooooooo guilty for having caused her so much suffering, that he instantly leaves and actually WANTS someone to beat him up and cause HIM some pain in return for his past deeds against Alma. I know that this sounds twisted...but a man in pain...with a heart full of regret, often goes out and does strange things... And, if you ask me, I think he left the house after the fight, filled with anger, rage, disgust, (at himself?) and sorrow (for Alma?), clearly intending to get in a fight...ANY fight! Just to let out all his pent up emotions from that disastrous end of the evening...!
It was an unavoidable "explosion".... :-X
sam
Sam, what a fantastic post. I agree with you on all the reasons Ennis felt he deserved to be beaten up, but I also think that it does have a lot to do with his love for Jack, and this being brought out in the open by Alma, because up until then it has been their (Ennis and Jack's) secret. To have Alma confront him with this is just too much for Ennis to bear......poor, sad, heartbroken Ennis. :'(
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Sam, what a fantastic post. I agree with you on all the reasons Ennis felt he deserved to be beaten up, but I also think that it does have a lot to do with his love for Jack, and this being brought out in the open by Alma, because up until then it has been their (Ennis and Jack's) secret. To have Alma confront him with this is just too much for Ennis to bear......poor, sad, heartbroken Ennis. :'(
You are so right christie. So right. (Sam nods his head up and down.) What a GREAT and wonderful movie!!!!!
sam
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Sam, what a fantastic post. I agree with you on all the reasons Ennis felt he deserved to be beaten up, but I also think that it does have a lot to do with his love for Jack, and this being brought out in the open by Alma, because up until then it has been their (Ennis and Jack's) secret. To have Alma confront him with this is just too much for Ennis to bear......poor, sad, heartbroken Ennis. :'(
You are so right christie. So right. (Sam nods his head up and down.) What a GREAT and wonderful movie!!!!!
sam
Oh yes, a great and wonderful movie indeed - and one that never ceases to amaze me.
Love your avatar btw - good old Jake, looking genuinely surprised to win - and how he deserved that award! ;D
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Someone on a previous thread brought up that Ennis was also enraged by Alma referring to Jack as Jack Nasty. Notice that he verbally threatens to beat up Monroe and her, something I doubt he would even think of doing unless extremely upset. I think his faithfulness to Jack supports the idea that he saw their relationship as somehow sacred, while at the same time being so conflicted and guilty about it. And our Ennis has only one outlet available to him when his emotions start piling up on him like that; his fists.
And to bring this back to the topic-ahem-I welled up with tears again today-first time in quite a while now-thinking about how, in the beginning, Jack and Ennis's shared poverty served as a bond between them, and that Jacks relative affluence later was another factor pulling them apart. Think of the resentment Ennis must have been feeling when he said "You're the reason I'm nothing..." He's just told Jack that he quit his several previous jobs just so they could get together, and now is feeling trapped in this one. And Jack stands there in his far more expensive gear and berates him for not being able to vacation in someplace warm. How that must have stung!!!
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Well, we're certainly off the thread of Jack's coat, but now that you've mentioned it, Proulxfan, I see that sad, inarticulate Ennis Del Mar has to resort to his fist, just as he does with the truck driver who has to brake for Ennis as he goes to the bar.....but I'm also curious about the word Nasty: even after 6 viewings, that word hits me as an unusual choice for Alma to use in the context of her desperate frustration as she releases years of pent up sadness and lies ......Jack Nasty.....what's your take on this word choice?
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Well, "doing the nasty" was a common euphemism for having sex. And I think the thought of two guys doing it was probably especially repugnant to her, and of course it's easier to blame it all on Jack...hence Jack Nasty; but you know he loves you, right??
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Thank you; and this is one of the few moments when someone is with me in "real time" Proulxfan! I didn't know "the nasty" was a euphemism....now it makes sense. Like so much other language that degrades sex, it must have come from our puritanical heritage, still so alive and well!
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Stephen,
I wholeheartedly agree, and don't even get me started on that unless you're ready for a 3 hour rant!! And see?? You've gone and lead me off topic again!!
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Someone on a previous thread brought up that Ennis was also enraged by Alma referring to Jack as Jack Nasty. Notice that he verbally threatens to beat up Monroe and her, something I doubt he would even think of doing unless extremely upset. I think his faithfulness to Jack supports the idea that he saw their relationship as somehow sacred, while at the same time being so conflicted and guilty about it.
Hi proulxfan and Stephen! It's so great to hear your input and thoughts on this movie that we all love and cherish. Did you guys get the feeling that Ennis was mainly reacting to Alma's "Jack Nasty" remark? I'm so curious... I'm sure that it must have stung when she said those two harsh words to him, (that's what she clearly intended them to do!), but my own personal impression was that his immediate respose of threatening to beat her (and Monroe) up was one more of a reaction to her saying: "I'm goin' a yell for Monroe!" rather than to her "Jack Nasty" remark. Of course, I might be waaaaaaaaay wrong, but I attributed his threatening them, more to the fact that he was terrified that his carefully guarded "Jack secret" would be finally broadcasted publicly, by Alma, to the "world" (=Monroe and his 2 girls in the living room). (You see, up until that very moment, Ennis thought that the only two people on earth that knew about his secret relationship with Jack, was only Jack...)
Alma: "JACK NASTY! You didn' go up there to fish!"
Ennis:"Shut up, listen to me, you don' know nothin' about it!"
(Ennis grabs her arm in a tight grip.)
Alma: "I'm goin' a yell for Monroe!"
Ennis: "You do it and I'll make him eat the f***in' floor, and YOU TOO!"
What do y'all think? Am I looking at this wrong?
in the beginning, Jack and Ennis's shared poverty served as a bond between them, and that Jacks relative affluence later was another factor pulling them apart.
Very good point proulxfan! It was one that I hadn't yet "seen"...so sad.
Think of the resentment Ennis must have been feeling when he said "You're the reason I'm nothing..."
Did Ennis say that out of resentment for Jack's affluence? :o (<--sam baffled!) I always thought he meant: "Jack, you are the reason why I am like this. My forbidden love for you all these years have kept me confused and agitated. I love you, but at the same time I cannot love you! I cannot find the answer. I don't know how to resolve this. And this is what is keeping me from moving on with my life... I'm stuck here, because of my feelings for you, Jack..." (<--Ummm, ehem...or something in that train of thought)
sam
Oh! And yes, I'm familiar with that term too. ("Doing the 'nasty'") People used to use that term where I used to live when I was little...(mostly when gossiping 'bout someone though...and usually in a derogatory sense...)
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Sam,
One of the wonderful things about this movie and the way the characters are written and portrayed is that they are full of complex motivations and emotions, so that these scenes lend themselves readily to many varying and often complementary interpretations. In pointing out Ennis's possible resentment of Jack's being financially better off, that doesn't mean I see that as his only or even primary motivation there, just another layer of meaning lurking beneath the surface.
The same holds true for the Jack Nasty comment. Heath does such a superb job of showing Ennis's building agitation that you can feel the coming outburst, and then the Jack Nasty comment is the thing-I think-that sends him over the edge, along with her threatening to yell for Monroe. But all your comments about what Ennis was afraid of or upset about are just as valid. I think it's all true and then some...
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Sam,
One of the wonderful things about this movie and the way the characters are written and portrayed is that they are full of complex motivations and emotions, so that these scenes lend themselves readily to many varying and often complementary interpretations. In pointing out Ennis's possible resentment of Jack's being financially better off, that doesn't mean I see that as his only or even primary motivation there, just another layer of meaning lurking beneath the surface.
The same holds true for the Jack Nasty comment. Heath does such a superb job of showing Ennis's building agitation that you can feel the coming outburst, and then the Jack Nasty comment is the thing-I think-that sends him over the edge, along with her threatening to yell for Monroe. But all your comments about what Ennis was afraid of or upset about are just as valid. I think it's all true and then some...
Ah! I hear you bro! Thanks for your thoughts. So right, so right! It's so wonderful to read of how others interpret the various scenes in the movie. Sometimes it can be so very different than my own point of view. It's exhilarating to have my view widened by the thoughtful and wise input of other fans! I seem to learn something new everytime I visit the forum...
So very happy to read what all of you say...
Thanks again, proulxfan!
sam
(Way off topic now: Hmmm, the more we discuss everything, the more I realize just how great an acting job Heath Ledger has done. Such an accomplishment! So much "said" without dialog...just pure acting! He's proven himself to be an actor of tremendous talent, don't you think? (And I bet that keeping that (normal) Aussie accent of his from creeping into the dialog while filming BBM must have been soooooooo difficult! He's done a terrific job! Very believable!)
Now don't take the following as me being blasphemous (as I simply ADORE Jake!) but: Jake's role is so similar to how Jake is in real life...(happy, fun, extrovert)...it must not have been so difficult for him to place himself in the character of Jack Twist. Heath, on the other hand, had a far more difficult task at hand at the start of the filming...
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Thank you, Sam! Yeah, this forum is great and I love learning so many new things about this film and story through these discussions.
Re. Heath Ledger's performance: You're preaching to the choir here. My biggest disappointment with the various awards garnered by this film was that Heath didn't pick up a single major "best actor" award, and I have said repeatedly that I think his performance here was one for the ages. And that is not to take anything away from PSH, it's just that I can count on my two hands the number of acting performances I have seen that I think are on a par with our Heath's.
And a side note, notice that Ang was extremely faithful to the story/screenplay in filming that Thanksgiving confrontation. The story says that Ennis felt too big for the room-Alma's kitchen-when she starts her story about putting the note in the tackle box, and in the way it is shot in the film, Ennis is too big for the frame! It only shows part of his head, and he is slightly hunched over as if his head is hitting the ceiling. I love that detail!
As for Jake, I will note two things. First, though I basically agree with your point that Jake's role was more similar to his actual personality-at least as we see it via the media-I have friends who feel just the opposite, that Heath's occasional difficulty in expressing himself in words and awkward looking gestures during interviews and public appearances match Ennis's discomfort in trying to verbalize his thought and feelings. It's all a matter of perspective I guess...
And second, thanks to tpe I have begun an investigation into some of Jake's previous film roles, and so far I am blown away by what I've seen. OK so far it's just Donnie Darko, but I am going to watch the others. He is a delight to watch in playing roles that involve vulnerability and sensitivity; how he would do in playing a more stoic or repressed character I haven't seen yet, but I think he could also manage to convey inner turmoil beneath outward placidity. Hell, just think what he manages to convey with his eyes alone. And in BBM, the scene where he says: "Tell you what...truth is, (lonnnngggg pause) sometimes I miss you so bad, I can hardly stand it.", Jake fills that pause via facial expression and body language with enough grief, sadness, longing, you name it... to carry a lesser film singlehandedly. In this film it tends to get overlooked as it is just one great moment among a multitude of them. God bless him, and may his career be long and filled with more performances of this magnitude.
OMG I am off topic again!!! The coat! The coat!! The coat!!! * Slapping my head repeatedly*
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seeing the movie I want to get a Carhart jacket like the one Ennis wears in the movie. There is a shop near me that sells them. Good friend of mine has one he hasn't washed in 20 years.
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Did you guys get the feeling that Ennis was mainly reacting to Alma's "Jack Nasty" remark? I'm so curious... I'm sure that it must have stung when she said those two harsh words to him, (that's what she clearly intended them to do!), but my own personal impression was that his immediate respose of threatening to beat her (and Monroe) up was one more of a reaction to her saying: "I'm goin' a yell for Monroe!" rather than to her "Jack Nasty" remark.
He was getting angry at the point where she said, "Jack Twist?" Ennis then says, "Alma..." as if to say Don't you dare say anything bad about him. And when she says, "Jack Nasty. You didn't go up there to fish. You and him...." he exploded, grabbed her arm hurting her and said, "Now you listen to me, you don't know nothin' about it." He was hurting her arm that is why she threatened to yell for Monroe. She had attacked the person he loved.
But, Ennis brought it all on himself. He attacked her when he said that she had burned him. She didn't burn him. He burned her by having an affair with someone else and letting her find out about it. I am surprised she stayed as quiet about seeing them kiss as long as she did.
Of course, I might be waaaaaaaaay wrong, but I attributed his threatening them, more to the fact that he was terrified that his carefully guarded "Jack secret" would be finally broadcasted publicly, by Alma, to the "world" (=Monroe and his 2 girls in the living room). (You see, up until that very moment, Ennis thought that the only two people on earth that knew about his secret relationship with Jack, was only Jack...)
Don't think so. He really didn't know if Alma had already told Monroe about what she saw.
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And second, thanks to tpe I have begun an investigation into some of Jake's previous film roles, and so far I am blown away by what I've seen. OK so far it's just Donnie Darko, but I am going to watch the others. He is a delight to watch in playing roles that involve vulnerability and sensitivity; how he would do in playing a more stoic or repressed character I haven't seen yet, but I think he could also manage to convey inner turmoil beneath outward placidity. Hell, just think what he manages to convey with his eyes alone. And in BBM, the scene where he says: "Tell you what...truth is, (lonnnngggg pause) sometimes I miss you so bad, I can hardly stand it.", Jake fills that pause via facial expression and body language with enough grief, sadness, longing, you name it... to carry a lesser film singlehandedly. In this film it tends to get overlooked as it is just one great moment among a multitude of them. God bless him, and may his career be long and filled with more performances of this magnitude.
OMG I am off topic again!!! The coat! The coat!! The coat!!! * Slapping my head repeatedly*
Off topic I know but...... As much as I applaud Heath's Ennis I personally feel that Jake's performance has been over looked in part because of his public persona. He's a good guy, Jack was a good guy trying to do the right thing for the person he loved. After mutiple times of watching the movie and reading opinions expressed on this forum, viewing some of his other work I believe that he is one of the finest young actors out there. His sense of timing, his commitment to a role, his ability to let silence speak for him, his use of his face and body all signs of a true professional. On topic he used his clothes as a part of the performance. They were his second skin and the scene of the 2 shirts is testement to this. In the end we see Ennis's shirt wrapped around Jack's just as his arms were wrapped around Jack back on Brokeback Mountain, "the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives." We can see Jack(Jake) in that shirt, in that place that never was but always will be. Oh lord, now I've gone and started crying again. Time for a visit to PBS.
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But, Ennis brought it all on himself. He attacked her when he said that she had burned him. She didn't burn him. He burned her by having an affair with someone else and letting her find out about it. I am surprised she stayed as quiet about seeing them kiss as long as she did.
Patriot 1,
The quote, "Once burned," really threw me off. It was so out of character for Ennis who never blamed anyone for anything, except for Acguirre when he ends their summer lovin'. I'm not quite sure why he says this, except possibly to redirect the blame on Alma so the focus is off of him and his blame. Maybe he wants her to think he feels burned, to fool her into thinking that he was hurt by her rejection. (an emotion he would feel if he weren't involved elsewhere.) I feel REALLY sorry for Alma at this point. As you pointed out, Ennis caused the end of their marriage not Alma. She clearly was simmering all through dinner and I believe that she would have confronted Ennis anyway, but maybe she wouldn't have done it in such a "nasty" way, if Ennis hadn't made that remark.
Of course, I might be waaaaaaaaay wrong, but I attributed his threatening them, more to the fact that he was terrified that his carefully guarded "Jack secret" would be finally broadcasted publicly, by Alma, to the "world" (=Monroe and his 2 girls in the living room). (You see, up until that very moment, Ennis thought that the only two people on earth that knew about his secret relationship with Jack, was only Jack...)
I agree with you here also. At this point in time Ennis is clearly more directed by his homophobia than by his love for Jack. So although I am certain he was angered by Alma's "Jack Nasty" comment, I think his rage is largely motivated by his fear of exposure.
Someone here spoke about an interview that revealed that Heath Ledger came up with the idea of the reversal of the shirts at the end of thge movie. Does anyone have any information on where this interview originated or how/ if I could read it?
Much thanks!
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The quote, "Once burned," really threw me off. It was so out of character for Ennis who never blamed anyone for anything, except for Acguirre when he ends their summer loving. I'm not quite sure why he says this, except possibly to redirect the blame on Alma so the focus is off of him and his blame. Maybe he wants her to think he feels burned, to fool her into thinking that he was hurt by her rejection. (an emotion he would feel if he weren't involved elsewhere.) I feel REALLY sorry for Alma at this point. As you pointed out, Ennis caused the end of their marriage not Alma. She clearly was simmering all through dinner and I believe that she would have confronted Ennis anyway, but maybe she wouldn't have done it in such a "nasty" way, if Ennis hadn't made that remark.
Glad I'm not the only one who felt that way about "once burned". I see that as the last straw for Alma, after not confronting Ennis all those years. I don't think Ennis was picking a fight, or really trying to point fingers at Alma on purpose, I just think it was something foolishly said. I just don't see a good reason for him to want to pick a fight with her. And Alma's simple comment "you should get married again Ennis, me and the girls worry about you" isn't particularly accusatory
Of course, I might be waaaaaaaaay wrong, but I attributed his threatening them, more to the fact that he was terrified that his carefully guarded "Jack secret" would be finally broadcasted publicly, by Alma, to the "world" (=Monroe and his 2 girls in the living room). (You see, up until that very moment, Ennis thought that the only two people on earth that knew about his secret relationship with Jack, was only Jack...)
I agree with you here also. At this point in time Ennis is clearly more directed by his homophobia than by his love for Jack. So although I am certain he was angered by Alma's "Jack Nasty" comment, I think his rage is largely motivated by his fear of exposure.
I don't really think he took offense at the "Jack Nasty" comment at that moment, if ever. I think it was FAR overshadowed by the revelation that the secret was out. And picking the fight with the truck driver was in part his way of asserting and reaffirming his masculinity and saying "nobody better not F*** with me", mixed with the fear-fueled rage that the jig was up.
Actually I think it was more than just the secret being out. Yes there was an element that now word would get around. But it was deeper than that. Having anyone else know meant that it was real, that even when they were not in the Bighorns it was REAL that Ennis was having a homosexual relationship with a man name Jack. Alma knowing meant it could no longer be compartmentalized. Even if she never told another soul, Ennis could no longer hold onto that self-delusion.
Now that I think about it, that's probably a key coping mechanism we see Ennis use for much of the film. As long as his relationship with Jack was neatly in a box, carefully controlled in time and location, he could deal with it. Jack is not just spewing when he harps bout the "short f***in' leash you keep me on".
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Someone here spoke about an interview that revealed that Heath Ledger came up with the idea of the reversal of the shirts at the end of thge movie. Does anyone have any information on where this interview originated or how/ if I could read it?
Much thanks!
Here ya go! (Note the "red" parts of the interview...) Heath has put so much of himself into this movie. He really got under the skin of Ennis' character, and worked alongside Proulx, McMurtry, Ossana and Lee to contribute all that he could to make BBM a perfect film in every way... I still get quite angry that he didn't win the Best Actor Oscar....(<--but that's another topic)...
BROKEBACK'S BIG SECRET'S:
Was Jack really gay-bashed? Will Ennis love again? What was Heath Ledger’s inspired addition to the script? Screenwriters Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana take us inside their runaway hit.
By Anne Stockwell
From The Advocate, February 28, 2006
If not for Diana Ossana, it’s highly doubtful we’d be cheering Brokeback Mountain on the screen. Deeply moved by Annie Proulx’s 1997 story, Ossana shared it with her celebrated writing partner Larry McMurtry (Lonesome Dove, The Last Picture Show, Terms of Endearment, and so on). The two optioned Proulx’s work and, within weeks, finished a screenplay. Then they embarked on years of meetings with Hollywood types who said the movie would never be made. As everyone knows, Ossana and McMurtry won that battle. As awards season heads into the home stretch, they’re still winning. Speaking with The Advocate in Los Angeles—the acerbic McMurtry punctuating throughout—Ossana insists, “Larry and I never lost faith in our screenplay. I would get frustrated at times when people would tell us, ‘It’s the best script I’ve ever read.’ If that’s true, I’d think, then commit. Come on! Let’s do this thing.”
Are you surprised by audiences’ reactions to this film?
Ossana: It just makes me really happy that so many people are going to see the film and that so many are moved by it. The farther the film seems to go on the northern plains, into Sioux Falls, S.D., and Fargo, N.D., the quieter the audiences become. That’s some of the most conservative parts of the country. And those folks are going in just wanting to see a good story, and they’re just riveted to the screen. I mean, that was the point when I first read that story in 1997. I wanted to get it out in the world in some major way, and have people feel the things I felt when I read that story.
In the new annotated edition, Annie Proulx describes the man who inspired Ennis—an aging ranch hand she saw one night alone in a bar watching the young cowboys play pool. She writes, “Something in his expression, a kind of bitter longing…made me wonder if he was country gay.” In your growing up, were there people who were country gay?
McMurtry: When I was a little boy I had a cousin who was gay who was a rodeoer. I didn’t see all that much of Cousin X—
Cousin X? [Anne laughs]
McMurtry: Yes. He lived with a schoolteacher in one of the towns in Texas, near where we set Jack’s life in the film. And the first vibe I ever got, I suppose, having to do with homosexuality was when we’d go up to family reunions, my father and mother would say, “Now, please be very polite to Cousin X’s gentleman friend.” We had no reason not to be. The gentleman friend was perfectly nice. And yet there was some anxiety in my parents that somehow there would be an awkwardness or something like that. There never was. I don’t even know what happened to Cousin X and his gentleman friend. They’re old enough to have died by now.
No sense of “Be careful, Cousin X’s gentleman friend is liable to get you in a corner”?
McMurtry: [A near-smile] The reunions were held outdoors on the great plains. There were no corners where anybody could have got us.
Ossana: I grew up in St Louis, and there were gay people in my high school. There’s an incident I remember very well. It really affected me. There were these two girls in my class. They were both very athletic, very nice girls, and they were together all the time. We just assumed they were best friends. But they did get made fun of for being queer. That’s the word everybody used back then. One girl it didn’t bother so much. The other girl, in my senior year she committed suicide.
Proulx writes that she still gets letters from people who personally relate to the characters in her story.
McMurtry: We just got a letter, very sad, from an Arizona cowboy.
Ossana: He wanted to thank us and Heath and Jake for making this film. He said he felt like he was watching his story up on the screen. He said, “You know, I’m gonna be 70, and I feel full of regret. There were a couple of men that I loved, one of whom was married and had three children. We never followed through on any of it. We just didn’t feel free to do it.”
According to Proulx, Wyoming has the highest suicide rate in the country—and most of those suicides are elderly single men. Did you two imagine Ennis’s future at all?
Ossana: I think Annie has a story somewhere about Ennis as an older man, and he winds up moving in with Alma Jr.
McMurtry: I don’t think Ennis would kill himself.
Ossana: He’s too tough. That would be a sign of weakness, and it would leave a memory of him as being weak, and I don’t think he would want that. But I do think that Ennis knows that people probably know that he’s homosexual, and emotionally [at the end of the film] I think he makes a tiny bit of progress, because he agrees to attend Alma Jr.’s wedding. Finally he compromises—
McMurtry: And doesn’t disappoint a woman.
Ossana: It’s the first time in the film that he doesn’t disappoint someone, male or female. It’s a tiny baby step, but he does it. I just don’t know how much [more] he’s capable of changing. I think if anything, he might become even more homophobic and bitter because of what he did, what he gave up, what he lost, what he’ll never have.
Ennis is convinced that Jack was murdered with a tire iron. I don’t necessarily believe it.
McMurtry: It’s what Ennis is feeling at the moment. But Lureen’s explanation is just as good. A lot of tires blow up and kill people.
Do people hope Jack wasn’t murdered? What do they believe?
Ossana: We’ve been asked that [in every interview]. You can’t believe the things we’ve heard—for example, did Lureen’s father have him killed? A reporter walked up to me and said, “What really happened? I need to know.” I said, “What do you think?” He told me, and I said, “Well, if that works for you, then good.”
Oh, that’s the most hateful writer answer.
Ossana: But even Annie will tell you it’s ambiguous to her. When you see that [flash] on the screen, we tell people that [we don’t know] what actually happened to Jack. But it’s what Ennis thinks, and he’s been set up to think that by his entire past. This was his biggest fear, that something would happen. And the tragedy is multilayered. If Jack was killed that way, the guilt that Ennis must feel—maybe if he’d taken him up on it, this wouldn’t have happened. But also the fact that he’s not sure. What is more tragic than not knowing how your loved one has died?
There’s “don’t ask, don’t tell” for you.
Ossana: So when he goes to Jack’s parents’—
McMurtry: It’s when Ennis goes there that it becomes a great movie, that it becomes a tragedy.
Ossana: The father’s talking about Jack—“Ennis Del Mar, he used to say.” The camera turns to Ennis and you see this little faint smile on his face, ’cause Jack was talking about him. Then the father says, “And then Jack was gonna bring another fellow up here.” And you go back to Ennis and his smile is gone. That’s when he realizes there was somebody else. That hurts too. But he knows in his innards that it’s his own fault. He can’t blame Jack for that anymore. And then he goes up to Jack’s room and he finds his old shirt hanging tucked inside Jack’s, and he realizes how much that man loved him—how deeply he loved him from the get-go.
I had to see the movie twice before I realized that later on, when Ennis had those shirts hanging in his trailer, he’d tucked Jack’s inside his. Did you two come up with that?
Ossana: No. That was Heath.
What’s the stupidest question you’ve been asked so far?
McMurtry: Somebody asked us if we could see ourselves writing a sequel about Ennis which has a happy ending.
Ossana: We’ve been asked so many questions, some of which have raised the hair on the back of my neck. The first time we were asked if we felt brave for doing this, I was startled. The only time I felt any fear was when my daughter was in Laramie, Wyo., when they found Matthew Shepard. This was a year after we wrote the script, and it just hit home again, how from 1963 to the late ’90s it was the same. It wasn’t any different.
Some conservative pundits are saying your film attacks the myth of the cowboy. Larry, you ought to know: Does the myth of the cowboy need preserving?
McMurtry: I’ve discovered that it’s very hard to demythicize the cowboy. It’s the most iconic American figure of all.
Ossana: To say that we’ve attacked this masculine icon just seems silly. John Wayne and his movies will always be there.
You both live in red states. When you were working on this film, did you ever think about political aftermath?
McMurtry: Never.
Ossana: People are people. We all feel emotion. Every single person on this planet, and they’d be lying if they denied it, has felt loneliness in their lives.
McMurtry: The gratifying thing is that this movie has played well in all color states, red and blue. It draws them in because millions and millions of families have some gay member, involvement, problem, something. And I think people are seeking understanding in coming to this film. We’ve tapped into the zeitgeist somehow or other. It’s something you can’t really plan—it either happens or it doesn’t happen. The zeitgeist was waiting there out of sight and we didn’t know.
Who was the Texas-hairdo consultant?
Ossana: Ang Lee and the production designer came to Texas. We took them to Wichita Falls. And Ang saw people that still looked like that, so that stayed in his and Judy Becker’s minds, I’m sure.
Let me ask you about attending the Golden Globes. Larry, I know this is not your first time at that rodeo—
McMurtry: Yes, it was my first time. I’ve never been to an awards show of any kind until then. I’ve been nominated for Oscars and stuff; I just didn’t go. I never wanted to go. Still don’t, actually. [All laugh] But this movie is special. It’s up there with Terms of Endearment—at least as good, maybe better.
When you and Diana won for Best Screenplay, you thanked your typewriter for keeping you out of the “dry embrace of the computer.” It was the most original acceptance speech I’ve heard in a long time.
McMurtry: Thank you. I’ve got a better one if we win the Oscar.
For all that haven't yet read this: "Enjoy!" :)
sam
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Ossana: And then he goes up to Jack’s room and he finds his old shirt hanging tucked inside Jack’s, and he realizes how much that man loved him—how deeply he loved him from the get-go.
Sam, Sam, Sam. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I had never seen that interview before. It is so exciting to see my theory confirmed by the very people that wrote the screenplay!
Did you post the entire interview or did you condense it to save space? If it is condensed where is the entire interview located?
Thank you for posting it.
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Yes, that line does reverberate; If you have nothing, you need nothing, and you have nothing to lose: And that word nothing is so heartbreaking when Ennis says to Jack, You made me this way.....I'm nothing. Jack, with his high quality clothes, has his material needs, yet is painfully aware of his soulful and sexual needs; Ennis, who can't find himself in the staight or "queer" world, feels zero at the bone. It's just too heartbreaking forwords.
Stephen, thank you for the posts. A discussion starting with Jack's coat leading to a meditation on 'nothingness'. And people wonder why we love BBM so much...
It is amazing how one thought on one aspect of this film can lead to so many brilliant and astute observations. Just when you think you've analalysed every scene as much as you can, something else springs up and takes you on another exciting journey to enlightenment!!! This is one of the (very, very many) reasons I love BBM so much, and love this forum so much. I think I'd go mad if I didn't have here to discuss, dissect and debate all the wonderful aspects of BBM.
BTW, was Jack's coat in the closet when Ennis discovered the shirts? I know there were shirts hanging up, but can't now recall seeing the coat.
Yes, the coat was the first piece of clothing he brushes his hand over when he went to the closet.... then the boots, then the shirts
In my heart I can just hear Jack asking his mother to keep those things for him, just as they are, because it represented the love he found with Ennis on Brokeback Mountain. Not that he would have told her the "reason" for keeping them, but when Ennis shows up at their house, I think its then she realizes what the clothes and boots signified to Jack, and that's why she sends Ennis to Jack's room.
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Ossana: And then he goes up to Jack’s room and he finds his old shirt hanging tucked inside Jack’s, and he realizes how much that man loved him—how deeply he loved him from the get-go.
Sam, Sam, Sam. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I had never seen that interview before. It is so exciting to see my theory confirmed by the very people that wrote the screenplay!
Did you post the entire interview or did you condense it to save space? If it is condensed where is the entire interview located?
Thank you for posting it.
Hi Patriot 1! As far as I know, I think that this was the full interview. You can find it here:
h++p://www.advocate.com/currentstory1_w.asp?id=25277&page=2
sam
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I have been reviewing the lastest posts here, very good reading stuff but I realized no one is discussing anymore the matter of this topic. ::)
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I have been reviewing the lastest posts here, very good reading stuff but I realized no one is discussing anymore the matter of this topic. ::)
We are very bad fans...chameau :-X ;)
sam
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I have been reviewing the lastest posts here, very good reading stuff but I realized no one is discussing anymore the matter of this topic. ::)
We are very bad fans...chameau :-X ;)
sam
But you are great posters! Start a new thread if you wish.
OT :-X
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The quote, "Once burned," really threw me off. It was so out of character for Ennis who never blamed anyone for anything, except for Acguirre when he ends their summer loving. I'm not quite sure why he says this, except possibly to redirect the blame on Alma so the focus is off of him and his blame. Maybe he wants her to think he feels burned, to fool her into thinking that he was hurt by her rejection. (an emotion he would feel if he weren't involved elsewhere.) I feel REALLY sorry for Alma at this point. As you pointed out, Ennis caused the end of their marriage not Alma. She clearly was simmering all through dinner and I believe that she would have confronted Ennis anyway, but maybe she wouldn't have done it in such a "nasty" way, if Ennis hadn't made that remark.
Glad I'm not the only one who felt that way about "once burned". I see that as the last straw for Alma, after not confronting Ennis all those years. I don't think Ennis was picking a fight, or really trying to point fingers at Alma on purpose, I just think it was something foolishly said. I just don't see a good reason for him to want to pick a fight with her. And Alma's simple comment "you should get married again Ennis, me and the girls worry about you" isn't particularly accusatory
Of course, I might be waaaaaaaaay wrong, but I attributed his threatening them, more to the fact that he was terrified that his carefully guarded "Jack secret" would be finally broadcasted publicly, by Alma, to the "world" (=Monroe and his 2 girls in the living room). (You see, up until that very moment, Ennis thought that the only two people on earth that knew about his secret relationship with Jack, was only Jack...)
I agree with you here also. At this point in time Ennis is clearly more directed by his homophobia than by his love for Jack. So although I am certain he was angered by Alma's "Jack Nasty" comment, I think his rage is largely motivated by his fear of exposure.
I don't really think he took offense at the "Jack Nasty" comment at that moment, if ever. I think it was FAR overshadowed by the revelation that the secret was out. And picking the fight with the truck driver was in part his way of asserting and reaffirming his masculinity and saying "nobody better not F*** with me", mixed with the fear-fueled rage that the jig was up.
Actually I think it was more than just the secret being out. Yes there was an element that now word would get around. But it was deeper than that. Having anyone else know meant that it was real, that even when they were not in the Bighorns it was REAL that Ennis was having a homosexual relationship with a man name Jack. Alma knowing meant it could no longer be compartmentalized. Even if she never told another soul, Ennis could no longer hold onto that self-delusion.
Now that I think about it, that's probably a key coping mechanism we see Ennis use for much of the film. As long as his relationship with Jack was neatly in a box, carefully controlled in time and location, he could deal with it. Jack is not just spewing when he harps bout the "short f***in' leash you keep me on".
Great post dale. The ultimate fear that Ennis has. Think of the scene where he asks Jack, "You ever get the feelin', I don't know when you're in town, and someone looks t you, suspicious...like he knows. And then you get out on the pavement, and everyone, lookin' at you, and maybe they all know too?" The more I think about this scene the more weep for Ennis, caught in some never world. He loves Jack, he accepts what he is with Jack and cannot reconcile it with the world he lives in.
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Tsk, tsk, tsk! Off topic my friends! ::)
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I have been reviewing the lastest posts here, very good reading stuff but I realized no one is discussing anymore the matter of this topic. ::)
Bad posters! Bad! Bad! <hangs head in shame> I'll try and do better. But gee, people say things and I just got to respond. <looks into his hero chameau's eyes like an anxious puppydog> bats his long brown lashes and pants.
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I have been reviewing the lastest posts here, very good reading stuff but I realized no one is discussing anymore the matter of this topic. ::)
Bad posters! Bad! Bad! <hangs head in shame> I'll try and do better. But gee, people say things and I just got to respond. <looks in his hero chameau's eyes like an anxious puppydog>
You are wonderfull posters and we are partners in obsession. Go ahead start new topics but plize! Do your best to stick to the subject of the topic.
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Tsk, tsk, tsk! Off topic my friends! ::)
Alrighty then! Any My So Called Life fans here? It struck me the other day while watching an eposide while on the treadmill that Jack's coat is very much like the one that Jordan (Jared Leto) wears. That's the misunderstood bad boy who is the obsession of Angela (Claire Danes). I wondered if anyone else noticed this too, but didn't think it was interesting or broadly interesting enough to post. But it is on-topic! ;)
Sorry...us P's tend to wander (see the Myers-Briggs thread if you wonder what that is about)
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Didn't mean for that to sound so bitchy if it came off that way.... :-[
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Sam, Thank you very much for the interview. Very interesting! - Nancy
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In my heart I can just hear Jack asking his mother to keep those things for him, just as they are, because it represented the love he found with Ennis on Brokeback Mountain. Not that he would have told her the "reason" for keeping them, but when Ennis shows up at their house, I think its then she realizes what the clothes and boots signified to Jack, and that's why she sends Ennis to Jack's room.
This is very probable, IMO. You can't keep those shirts in one place for a near 20 years without an accomplice while you're away...
Jack seemed to have kept all his BBM clothes intact -- in the closet. The coat being one of the items left there, it seems. Did he ever use them again? I wonder...
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Jack definitely had to have asked his mom not to touch the shirts, because otherwise she would have washed them.
Just thought of something, Ennis never had the luxury of keeping extra clothes in a closet unused.
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good points, Tpe and n065817! To think of the details of what the film does not tell us over those 20 years just puts my imagination on overdrive! What a film! Now I want a winter coat just like Jack's!
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good points, Tpe and n065817! To think of the details of what the film does not tell us over those 20 years just my imagination on overdrive! What a film! Now I want a winter coat just like Jack's!
Stephen, do you think he ever used the clothes in the closet ever again? Certainly not the shirts, but I would think he probably used the coat while he was helping out at the ranch. But I would like to think (perhaps improbable) that her never used them again after BBM.
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interesting question, Tpe. Of course sentimentally it would be sweet to think Jack kept everything from BBM as a relic of the grand beginning; but I think Jack probably continued to use his BBM clothes, except for the shirts which held the blood of his stormy love for Ennis. Just thinking about this is gut-wrenching.
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interesting question, Tpe. Of course sentimentally it would be sweet to think Jack kept everything from BBM as a relic of the grand beginning; but I think Jack probably continued to use his BBM clothes, except for the shirts which held the blood of his stormy love for Ennis. Just thinking about this is gut-wrenching.
Yes, I would have to agree. He did stay at his parents house for extended period -- 'through the winter' the first time after Brokeback. At the very least, the coat must have been used then.
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interesting question, Tpe. Of course sentimentally it would be sweet to think Jack kept everything from BBM as a relic of the grand beginning; but I think Jack probably continued to use his BBM clothes, except for the shirts which held the blood of his stormy love for Ennis. Just thinking about this is gut-wrenching.
Yes, I would have to agree. He did stay at his parents house for extended period -- 'through the winter' the first time after Brokeback. At the very least, the coat must have been used then.
He left Brokeback wearing the coat, so it would seem probable that he continued to wear it during the time at his parents place.
As for Jack's mum knowing about the shirts, I think she did. And she understood they meant something so special, so sacred, to Jack, that she let them be. And when Ennis came, she invited him up to the room, hoping that he would find them.....and so he did. Just thinking about Ennis's face when he brings down the shirts, his own hidden by Jacks, and Jack's mum puts them in that brown paper bag.....he looks so lost, so sad, so utterly heartbroken, but I think he knew that Jack's mum knew, and that it was ok.
* sob, sob *
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A beautiful moment. I wish that the dad weren't around, so that Ennis could come back and see them as mom suggests. In that way at least Ennis would be able to share his grief with somebody.
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Friends you keep being off topic, if you want to discuss about the shirts, there are the threads, thank you
Shirts - why at Jack's parents?
http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=2216.0
Until the shirts
http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=1184.0
Shirts
http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=1049.0
Shirts - Possible spoiler
http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=669.0
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Jack seemed to have kept all his BBM clothes intact -- in the closet. The coat being one of the items left there, it seems. Did he ever use them again? I wonder...
tpe, the coat wasn't in the closet when Ennis was there.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe359%2FPatriotOne%2FCoatInCloset.jpg&hash=dd3ed0662955f03820f09666379ca5978606b9cb)
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Jack seemed to have kept all his BBM clothes intact -- in the closet. The coat being one of the items left there, it seems. Did he ever use them again? I wonder...
tpe, the coat wasn't in the closet when Ennis was there.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe359%2FPatriotOne%2FCoatInCloset.jpg&hash=dd3ed0662955f03820f09666379ca5978606b9cb)
I re-read the first posts referring to discussion about whether the coat was there. Only remembering the collar of the coat during the flashback scene, it is perhaps easy to mistake it as one of the coats in the closet (with a similar collar?)
I shall have to look at this on my next viewing. But I shall trust you in this. Thanks.
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Jack seemed to have kept all his BBM clothes intact -- in the closet. The coat being one of the items left there, it seems. Did he ever use them again? I wonder...
tpe, the coat wasn't in the closet when Ennis was there.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe359%2FPatriotOne%2FCoatInCloset.jpg&hash=dd3ed0662955f03820f09666379ca5978606b9cb)
I re-read the first posts referring to discussion about whether the coat was there. Only remembering the collar of the coat during the flashback scene, it is perhaps easy to mistake it as one of the coats in the closet (with a similar collar?)
I shall have to look at this on my next viewing. But I shall trust you in this. Thanks.
Great Scott! Don't trust me...trust the picture.
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Great Scott! Don't trust me...trust the picture.
Sorry Patriot1, I'll have to trust you as I can't see the pic. ;)
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Great Scott! Don't trust me...trust the picture.
Sorry Patriot1, I'll have to trust you as I can't see the pic. ;)
You can't? Why not? Am I doing it wrong!?
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You can't? Why not? Am I doing it wrong!?
Patriot1, not your fault. Something is probably blocking on my side. I would definitely trust you on this one. Thanks.
The coats in the closet were most likely used whenever Jack was at home. But none of them looked like his Texas apparel/coats, it seems to me. Do you agree on this one?
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You can't? Why not? Am I doing it wrong!?
Patriot1, not your fault. Something is probably blocking on my side. I would definitely trust you on this one. Thanks.
The coats in the closet were most likely used whenever Jack was at home. But none of them looked like his Texas apparel/coats, it seems to me. Do you agree on this one?
Absolutely. There are definitely no Texas clothes in the closet.
There are 2 pair of pressed denim pants, a red, black and white plaid coat, a denim coat that seems to have a sheep skin lining and another solid color coat, not the green plaid he wore on the mountain. Then there is the pair of boots that Ennis seemed to recall jack wearing that summer and of course the two shirts. But the shirts are of course hidden from easy view.
Do you mean you can not see any pictures on the forum? That is AWFUL!!! Or is it just pictures that are stored on certain web sites? If that is the case I want to change the site I store mine on. What site can you see the pics?
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You can't? Why not? Am I doing it wrong!?
Patriot1, not your fault. Something is probably blocking on my side. I would definitely trust you on this one. Thanks.
The coats in the closet were most likely used whenever Jack was at home. But none of them looked like his Texas apparel/coats, it seems to me. Do you agree on this one?
Absolutely. There are definitely no Texas clothes in the closet.
There are 2 pair of pressed denim pants, a red, black and white plaid coat, a denim coat that seems to have a sheep skin lining and another solid color coat, not the green plaid he wore on the mountain. Then there is the pair of boots that Ennis seemed to recall jack wearing that summer and of course the two shirts. But the shirts are of course hidden from easy view.
Do you mean you can not see any pictures on the forum? That is AWFUL!!! Or is it just pictures that are stored on certain web sites? If that is the case I want to change the site I store mine on. What site can you see the pics?
Hi Patriot1. I can see most pics, but you are probably right: I can't see some pix because certain websites are being blocked (for example, I can't access yahoo from where I am right now). What is blocked and not blocked is decided for me by a most judicious department, whose wisdom I don't expect to try to learn deeply.
The reason why I brought up the clothes not being Texas aparrel: they were probably old clothes that Jack used at home -- or clothes he bought locally during the trips to home. The style of clothing is rather similar for the BBM clothing, it seems -- particucarly the coats. It would seem to me that they could very well be old clothes/coats that he never used later in life (not local ones bought during trips to home -- I expect he would use any Texas clothing that he brought along.) In which case, when Ennis discovered them after Jack's death, they were probably already quite removed from the physical person of Jack.
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I think we need to bring this thread back to the original topic, otherwise we will be in serious trouble!! I know it's easy to go off topic, and I'm usually the one going off!
Can anyone now clarify if Jack's coat WAS in the closet or not? I'm kind of confused and would like to know. If so, it would make sense, because it seems Jack stored all his Brokeback clothes there over the years.....hidden away from Lureen and kept there so Jack could see them, feel them, touch them every time he spent time at his parents (which seemed to be at the end of every fishing trip with Ennis).
It was his own little shrine to Brokeback, and Ennis...
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I've just had a little play with the photo of the coats (seen above). I can see a sheepskin collar and i was hoping this was THE coat, but to me it looks more like a denim coat. :(
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Can anyone now clarify if Jack's coat WAS in the closet or not? I'm kind of confused and would like to know.
You can't see the picture either???
There is NO green coat in the closet.
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Can anyone now clarify if Jack's coat WAS in the closet or not? I'm kind of confused and would like to know.
You can't see the picture either???
There is NO green coat in the closet.
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Can anyone now clarify if Jack's coat WAS in the closet or not? I'm kind of confused and would like to know.
You can't see the picture either???
There is NO green coat in the closet.
I'm in agreement, although i keep staring at the pic you posted hoping it will appear there.... ;)
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Can anyone now clarify if Jack's coat WAS in the closet or not? I'm kind of confused and would like to know.
You can't see the picture either???
There is NO green coat in the closet.
I'm in agreement, although i keep staring at the pic you posted hoping it will appear there.... ;)
Ha ha ha, Yes, I know what you mean. Only with me I keep hoping I will see Jack there for Ennis. Alas, neither is to be.
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There is a good article about the clothes in BBM..it is called "Brokeback"clothing speaks louder than words. Now don't ask where I found it, on this site for sure, but it is there.
One thing the costumer said was that "The shoulder was much higher, and the armholes were tighter. The shirts were more constricted." and "everything worn by cowboys and ranchers has a meaning and a cultural reference." In the book there is a description of some of the things that Ennis found in the closet. Whether the jacket you are spaking about was there, I'm not sue.
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http://stylescenes.latimes.com/fashion/2006/01/brokeback_cloth.html#more
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Thank you so much, aimi, for the site on the clothing! I'd missed that completely; it's a very interesting article!
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Yeah, thanks Aimee. I thought it was interesting in its distinction between the character's jeams. I had noticed that Ennis wore Levi's and Jack wore Wranglers. I thought it was because Wrangler was a newer brand and Ennis wouldn't have anything new. According to that article, cowboys wore tighter fitting Wranglers and ranchers wore looser fitting Levi's. I don't quite know the definition of cowboy vs. rancher. I guess they mean rodeo cowboy? I horseback riding and I find it uncomfortable to ride in loose fiting pants (they rub), particularly if you are doing anything more than walking along on your horse. So, I guess that is why Jack is wearing tighter jeans. I don't hear any complaints now, do I? Sure wish they would have tightened up Ennis's jeans! Ha! I had also noticed the difference in the hat styles, which the author said was a regional thing. Thanks again. - Nancy
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Thanks for your post, Nancy; I think traditional "cowboys" refers to those who manage cattle, while ranch hands ( Jack and Ennis) will do just about anything for work: sheep, tilling the land, barn mending etc. Annie Proulx says that cattle men looked down on sheep herders, and in the old west there used to be land wars between the two. Does anybody here have more info. on the subject and its connection to Jack's coat and other clothing?
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Yes aimi15 thanks for the thread on clothing, i didn't remember where it was, but you came to the rescue.
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I horseback riding and I find it uncomfortable to ride in loose fiting pants (they rub), particularly if you are doing anything more than walking along on your horse. So, I guess that is why Jack is wearing tighter jeans.
I didn't know that it's uncomfortable to wear looser pants while riding a horse. I mean, I always knew that rodeo cowboys wear Wranglers. Living in Texas, you have to live under a rock to not know that. I also knew about the Levi's, because of the same reason. I wear Levi's, because they serve me well. I'm not a rancher by any stretch of the imagination, but they work very well for outdoor work. They also last longer. I also knew about the hats. Texas hats are much larger, because everything is bigger in Texas.
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Hi Bram, Yeah, the loose pants kind of rub against your legs, not comfortable at all. However, it's hard to get into the saddle when your pants are too tight. Hence, the new creation stretch jeans! Wonderful for riding. I', like you prefer Levis to Wrangler, better quality. Never liked the wrangler style. Off the subject...sorry.
Thanks, Stephen, for the distinction between cowboys and ranchers.
Anyone know what a roughneck is?
-Nancy
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Anyone know what a roughneck is?
-Nancy
Roughnecks work on oil rigs. That's what it means down here, at least. I've had a couple of friends that did oil rig work. You go out and work for like four months and come home with $60,000. My friends just did it when they were in a real bind, but they met guys who had been doing it their whole lives. Those guys were roughnecks.
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Thanks, Bram. Can you tell I"m a New Yorker? Ha! - Nancy
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I didn't see Jack's green coat in the closet. I don't think it was there.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg85.imageshack.us%2Fimg85%2F3259%2Fscoat7sw.jpg&hash=08465bb1e1b122f72a025ea963597fa7ec102a37)
About the difference between "cowboys" and "ranchers": Here's a tidbit on what Annie Proulx has said in an interview:
Interviewer: I think it's clear to anyone who reads "Brokeback Mountain" that above all it's a wrenching, starcrossed love story. It is about two cowboys, but it seems inaccurate to call it gay literature.
Annie Proulx: Excuse me, but it is NOT a story about "two cowboys." It is a story about two inarticulate, confused Wyoming ranch kids in 1963 who have left home and who find themselves in a personal sexual situation they did not expect, understand nor can manage. The only work they find is herding sheep for a summer some cowboys! Yet both are beguiled by the cowboy myth, as are most people who live in the state, and Ennis tries to be one but never gets beyond ranch hand work; Jack settles on rodeo as an expression of the Western ideal. It more or less works for him until he becomes a tractor salesman.
sam
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Well, cowboy doesn't really mean what it used to. It's more like an umbrella term for anyone that does ranch work, or rodeo, or really anything that requires handling livestock on a regular basis. They could both fall under cowboy now, but really Ennis is a ranch hand and Jack is a kicker.
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does anyone love jacks green coat he wore on the mountain in 1963 as much as me .
i would love that coat.
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lightnin flat,
Jennis, a dear friend and member here who has stopped coming after a personal loss, was helping me trace the whereabouts of this coat. She loved this coat most especially and was desirous of researching what had become of it. The last we knew several months back was that it has not surfaced in any of the BBM auctions.
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tpe
sorry to hear of your friends personall loss.
that coat is in a lot of key scenes in the first part of the film .also towards the end of the film when ennis embraces jack when jack is thinking back 20years.
thank you for the information didnt know they auctioned the stuff from the film.
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thank you for the information didnt know they auctioned the stuff from the film.
Auction they did. BIG TIME. "The shirts" went for in the neighborhood of $101,000.00, which I believe is a record for film memorbilia. Jack's black GMC truck went for about $60,000. all for charity and good causes. If you're really intersted send me a message and I will send you some info on the literally hundreds of other BBM film icons that were auctioned on ebay.
RE: Jack's green coat. To my knowledge I've never seen it turn up at auction or otherwise. Ennis's coat (or coats as there were several) did get auctioned, but you can actually still buy the identical coat today from the manufacturer.
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Auction they did. BIG TIME. "The shirts" went for in the neighborhood of $101,000.00, which I believe is a record for film memorbilia. Jack's black GMC truck went for about $60,000. all for charity and good causes. If you're really intersted send me a message and I will send you some info on the literally hundreds of other BBM film icons that were auctioned on ebay.
RE: Jack's green coat. To my knowledge I've never seen it turn up at auction or otherwise. Ennis's coat (or coats as there were several) did get auctioned, but you can actually still buy the identical coat today from the manufacturer.
yes i would love some info thanks.i would love a coat like that but as i live in the uk it would probaly be difficult to obtain one.
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yes i would love some info thanks.i would love a coat like that but as i live in the uk it would probaly be difficult to obtain one.
Actually I don't think being in UK should be a problem. There is the same model coat - Carhartt Chore Coat C01 on auction right now on ebay, but it's a size 44 (US), pretty big. Heath's was a 42 I think.
See: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=180152590807&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=008 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=180152590807&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=008)
You can also go to the Carhartt website and see the coat:
***edited by moderator, please do not post commercial links on the forum***
If you're really serious be sure and look for the coat with the tan collar, the similar "prewashed" coats have a black collar. The original style C01 coat is really stiff when new, but its easy enough to do your own "prewash" and aging, I did it to mine and now it looks just like Ennis's (you also have to carefully trim off the pocket label).
Unfortunately, Heath Ledger hasn't stopped by to model it for me yet, but if he does I'm ready! :) :) :)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2Fplatecoatjeans.jpg&hash=d3d0534b1374c653823196ed65c92e51063b73f6)
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Actually I don't think being in UK should be a problem. There is the same model coat - Carhartt Chore Coat C01 on auction right now on ebay, but it's a size 44 (US), pretty big. Heath's was a 42 I think.
See: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=180152590807&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=008 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=180152590807&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=008)
You can also go to the Carhartt website and see the coat:
***edited by moderator***
If you're really serious be sure and look for the coat with the tan collar, the similar "prewashed" coats have a black collar. The original style C01 coat is really stiff when new, but its easy enough to do your own "prewash" and aging, I did it to mine and now it looks just like Ennis's (you also have to carefully trim off the pocket label).
Unfortunately, Heath Ledger hasn't stopped by to model it for me yet, but if he does I'm ready! :) :) :)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2Fplatecoatjeans.jpg&hash=d3d0534b1374c653823196ed65c92e51063b73f6)
sorry i thought you meant you could get a coat like jacks green one from the manufactor thats what i am after.
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Sorry lightnin flat, as I said, never seen it come up, and never read anything about it. Odd seeing how it played such an important role and was so distinctive.
It seems everything else of Jack's appeared on the block: black hat(s), harmonica, lighter, shaving cup, all kinds of shirts including that snappy purple one and the red one, watches, jeans, even the other coats including the shearling one worn at the stream during the reunion "It'd be a sweet life". Also the "fat suit" they made for Jake that he wore to make him look older and heavier. But no green coat, maybe Jake kept it, he did look good in it! O0
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Thanks jackster and lightnin flat.
lightnin flat, have you visited the forum thread that covered the big BBM charity auction last year? You may find it interesting. A number of us did participate here.
Also, Ken Wills, the property manager for the film, sold a number of his BBM holdings on eBay. I had not checked recently, but I didmanage to get something from him also.
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I read somewhere that the wardrobe departments on some of these films shop at thrift stores and find these one-of-a-kind items. Maybe he did keep it as he did indeed wear it well. The carhart coat that Ennis wears is still very popular today even . several guys on my job own them or similar ones.
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I read somewhere that the wardrobe departments on some of these films shop at thrift stores and find these one-of-a-kind items. Maybe he did keep it as he did indeed wear it well. The carhart coat that Ennis wears is still very popular today even . several guys on my job own them or similar ones.
Gyllenhaal was quoted somewhere (hope my emory is not faulty here) that he did keep some of the clothing, for memory's sake. Or the old article posted here about the BBM wardrobe must have mentioned that the cast kept a few itmes for themselves (I remember belts as being mentioned, for some reason). Jennis and I had suspected for some time that the green coat was one of the items. But we can't be so sure.
I know that a lot of items from the BBM wardrobe were displayed somewhere in LA and London for a time, and Jennis was unable to go, I recall. Still, I have not heard of any direct testimonial that this coat had ever been exhibited.
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My guess is that this green coat was either a std. production item (i.e. actually in some companies product line) or specially made for the movie. Usually for an item like this that appears in many different scenes it is necessary to have several backups for it (also ones to fit the doubles). It's just too risky, if something happens to the one piece you'd have suspend shooting the film ($$$$!!) until a new one was made or reshoot (again $$$$). Obviously for the jeans, shirts and hats this is not much of a problem, and the Carhartt coat was easily duplicated all being ready wear items. Even Jack's black truck had a back-up for certain scenes. This would make a really interesting research project to try and find out the story here with this coat, if anyone knows anyone connected with the wardrobe dept on BBM it would be a place to start.
I have recently been trying to do some research on Ennis's first hat. It was labeled as a Stetson in one of the auctions, but I cannot find a truely identical hat in their line. There is a very similar one, but it has a much shorter 4" crown. Ennis's hat is very tall when compared to other standard cowboy hats, looks like a 6" crown. I'm wondering again if this wasn't custom made, designed especially look good on Heath's head? It sure does IMHO. If anyone knows any details about this hat I'd appreciate hearing about it.
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My guess is that this green coat was either a std. production item (i.e. actually in some companies product line) or specially made for the movie. Usually for an item like this that appears in many different scenes it is necessary to have several backups for it (also ones to fit the doubles). It's just too risky, if something happens to the one piece you'd have suspend shooting the film ($$$$!!) until a new one was made or reshoot (again $$$$). Obviously for the jeans, shirts and hats this is not much of a problem, and the Carhartt coat was easily duplicated all being ready wear items. Even Jack's black truck had a back-up for certain scenes. This would make a really interesting research project to try and find out the story here with this coat, if anyone knows anyone connected with the wardrobe dept on BBM it would be a place to start.
I have recently been trying to do some research on Ennis's first hat. It was labeled as a Stetson in one of the auctions, but I cannot find a truely identical hat in their line. There is a very similar one, but it has a much shorter 4" crown. Ennis's hat is very tall when compared to other standard cowboy hats, looks like a 6" crown. I'm wondering again if this wasn't custom made, designed especially look good on Heath's head? It sure does IMHO. If anyone knows any details about this hat I'd appreciate hearing about it.
Good point, jackster. Ther hats were probably custom-made. I know that Jake's BBM shirts were custom-made for him. I should go back to the hats of Ennis and Jack auctioned off last year. I also remember that some of them showed noticable wear...
AS for this green coat, it remains a mystery to me -- where it is right now...
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It's so funny to see this thread here. I was watching scenes earlier tonight- of them up on the mountain and I was thinking on the green coat and saying how badly I'd love to have it. Perhaps he did keep it for himself. Should I get lucky enough to gain access to
him his stuff I'll fill you all in if I find it ;)
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Now I'm dying to buy some coat :-X
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Thanks jackster and lightnin flat.
lightnin flat, have you visited the forum thread that covered the big BBM charity auction last year? You may find it interesting. A number of us did participate here.
Also, Ken Wills, the property manager for the film, sold a number of his BBM holdings on eBay. I had not checked recently, but I didmanage to get something from him also.
no i havnt but i will now thanks
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It's so funny to see this thread here. I was watching scenes earlier tonight- of them up on the mountain and I was thinking on the green coat and saying how badly I'd love to have it. Perhaps he did keep it for himself. Should I get lucky enough to gain access to him his stuff I'll fill you all in if I find it ;)
if you should by some miracle come across that coat and out of the goodness of your heart you decide i need it more than you because winter is on its way in the uk .just one more thing can you make sure jack is still in it when you post it to me. :t)
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Sorry lightnin flat, as I said, never seen it come up, and never read anything about it. Odd seeing how it played such an important role and was so distinctive.
It seems everything else of Jack's appeared on the block: black hat(s), harmonica, lighter, shaving cup, all kinds of shirts including that snappy purple one and the red one, watches, jeans, even the other coats including the shearling one worn at the stream during the reunion "It'd be a sweet life". Also the "fat suit" they made for Jake that he wore to make him look older and heavier. But no green coat, maybe Jake kept it, he did look good in it! O0
he looked absolutely lovely in that coat
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It's so funny to see this thread here. I was watching scenes earlier tonight- of them up on the mountain and I was thinking on the green coat and saying how badly I'd love to have it. Perhaps he did keep it for himself. Should I get lucky enough to gain access to him his stuff I'll fill you all in if I find it ;)
It would probably surface sometime in the future. If Jake does indeed own it, then I suspect that at a future auction, it will not come cheap...
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Now I'm dying to buy some coat :-X
Cham, I do think a number of the BBM wardrobe will probably be on the market again -- sometime in the near future. And one can always find out where to get coats of the same brand or make...
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no i havnt but i will now thanks
Here is the thread:
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=6752.msg260561#msg260561
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Cham, I do think a number of the BBM wardrobe will probably be on the market again -- sometime in the near future. And one can always find out where to get coats of the same brand or make...
Hmmm . . . . Tell you what, maybe we should think about marketing a new line of outerwear, the "Brokeback" line, 'course we couldn't use "Brokeback" but we could come up with a special name - like, the "No reins Line" or "E & J Ranchwear". Offer the whole line - jeans, shirts, boots, coats, hats, belts, even camping gear and maybe even get our own house label whiskey "Old Rose". Whatya' think?
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Hmmm . . . . Tell you what, maybe we should think about marketing a new line of outerwear, the "Brokeback" line, 'course we couldn't use "Brokeback" but we could come up with a special name - like, the "No reins Line" or "E & J Ranchwear". Offer the whole line - jeans, shirts, boots, coats, hats, belts, even camping gear and maybe even get our own house label whiskey "Old Rose". Whatya' think?
;D I like "No reins Line". ;)
Perhaps we should figure out where something like the green coat can be bought or made. Else, we should try to reproduce it is such a line. :)
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Else, we should try to reproduce it is such a line. :)
You bet. That's what I was thinking, we'd do all the outfits. Could sell 'em by the year . . . '63 line, '67 line, '70 line, etc, etc. Unfortunately it doesn't lend itself to a ladies line. Alma wasn't too inspired, but maybe the Cassie and Jr. lines would be sellers, of course there always Lureen and Lashawn, so I guess those would be pretty snappy - I really liked that red blouse that Lureen wore in her office, the one with those "lucky" horseshoes stratigically placed on the front! Takes a "special" kind of gal to wear that! :clap: (Gettin' OT here).
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Here is the thread:
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=6752.msg260561#msg260561
thank you
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You bet. That's what I was thinking, we'd do all the outfits. Could sell 'em by the year . . . '63 line, '67 line, '70 line, etc, etc. Unfortunately it doesn't lend itself to a ladies line. Alma wasn't too inspired, but maybe the Cassie and Jr. lines would be sellers, of course there always Lureen and Lashawn, so I guess those would be pretty snappy - I really liked that red blouse that Lureen wore in her office, the one with those "lucky" horseshoes stratigically placed on the front! Takes a "special" kind of gal to wear that! :clap: (Gettin' OT here).
Most certainly: Alma was NOT very inspired!
But taste is a myterious thing. ;)
I'd but the green coat in an instant!
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Just don't anyone suggest seeling Alma's droopy knits and tacky nightie - she really has no taste. (Actually I could probably do her look from what I own, but I'm not going to admit it.)
Funny how in general male work-clothes are often attractive and constantly come in and out of fashion while female ones are always dreary and depressing. Sorry, *o)
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Funny how in general male work-clothes are often attractive and constantly come in and out of fashion while female ones are always dreary and depressing.
Sorry, Even More *o) *o) *o)
WW: I think it may not be so much the style clothes as the "hangers" they are put on. If you saw some of the male work clothes displayed at my factory your opinion of "often attractive" may need to be revised.
Jeans and white Ts look fantastic on Jake and Heath :d), but with beer belly "muffin tops", stretched out neck or arm holes, and love handles on a scale that could be used by forklifts, the attractive side of these clothes is somewhat hard to decern. You don't hear the term "plumber's butt" applied to women and for good reason. Michelle's a real looker, but I think they went out of their way to find drabwear so she'd be less appealing in contrast to Jack. That one shot of her coming home with the mail (postcard #2) and groceries in arm has her wearing jeans and she looks pretty sharp and sassy to me. Do you think Ennis's PJs are really any better than Alma's nightie? If my partner had tried to get me to wear those 5 years ago I'd rather of dropped dead, but after seeing Heaths butt (and cleavage) in them I'm ready to go buy a pair for myself (and him!).
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Here is the thread:
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=6752.msg260561#msg260561
i had a look at the stuff being auctioned found it very interesting as i said didnt realise it was auctioned off. sounds as though a lot of people want to get their hands on jacks green coat, :t)
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i had a look at the stuff being auctioned found it very interesting as i said didnt realise it was auctioned off. sounds as though a lot of people want to get their hands on jacks green coat, :t)
To be sure, it is like the Holy Grail. ;)
I would certainly love to know its whereabouts, at the very least!
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The greencoat coat was excellent, but the one he wore during the divorce scene strikes my fancy. The fringe, ooh lala! and then there's the blue parka, and the one he wore in the confrontation scene, ( very eddie bauer). He could model either one of these for me any time he gets ready!. Were any of these auctioned off? especially the fringed one. :P :P (t) (t)
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Were any of these auctioned off?
I believe they all were. I've saved files on many of these auctions but not all, I was more interested in the Ennis stuff. Jack's beige parka & grey shirt from the "I wish I knew how to quit you" scene went for $2,650. as a set. The blue parka & purple shirt (looks so hot with those blue eyes!) went for $3,477, again as a set. Sorry I don't have info on your fav fringe jacket
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The greencoat coat was excellent, but the one he wore during the divorce scene strikes my fancy. The fringe, ooh lala! and then there's the blue parka, and the one he wore in the confrontation scene, ( very eddie bauer). He could model either one of these for me any time he gets ready!. Were any of these auctioned off? especially the fringed one. :P :P (t) (t)
aintfoolin, I would gladly make you wear Jack's coat during the confrontation scene if we meet in some future BBM gathering.
As weas mentioned in the thread, one of the blue parkas had "treasures" in the pockets when the buyer finally got it.
As for the green coat, why it has not been offered for auction seems to suggest that perhaps Gyllenhaal is keeping it as a memento of BBM. If this is true, that would make the coat priceless in my estimation...
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. . . perhaps Gyllenhaal is keeping it as a memento of BBM. If this is true, that would make the coat priceless in my estimation...
Or as the ad would say:
Blue parka & Purple shirt worn by Jack during camping trip with Ennis: $3,477.00
Beige parka & Gray shirt worn by Jack at last meeting with Ennis: $2,650.00
Green coat worn by Jack on Brokeback Mountain and FNIT with Ennis: priceless
O0 O0 O0 O0
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Or as the ad would say:
Blue parka & Purple shirt worn by Jack during camping trip with Ennis: $3,477.00
Beige parka & Gray shirt worn by Jack at last meeting with Ennis: $2,650.00
Green coat worn by Jack on Brokeback Mountain and FNIT with Ennis: priceless
O0 O0 O0 O0
:) We only need the background music for this...
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aintfoolin, I would gladly make you wear Jack's coat during the confrontation scene if we meet in some future BBM gathering.
As weas mentioned in the thread, one of the blue parkas had "treasures" in the pockets when the buyer finally got it.
As for the green coat, why it has not been offered for auction seems to suggest that perhaps Gyllenhaal is keeping it as a memento of BBM. If this is true, that would make the coat priceless in my estimation...
Treasures? In the blue parka? What praytell might those be, or should I guess? Do you know? A can opener? Maybe a can of beans? Oh I know, A potato! ;D
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Treasures? In the blue parka? What praytell might those be, or should I guess? Do you know? A can opener? Maybe a can of beans? Oh I know, A potato! ;D
Not as good as that, aintfoolin . :) Some gum. And I believe some paper/writing associated with the scene filming? I don't recall the exact details of the latter, or whether there were hand-written annotations...
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. . . I believe some paper/writing associated with the scene filming? I don't recall the exact details of the latter, or whether there were hand-written annotations...
"Meet Ennis at trout stream 3:30, bring corn on the cob, lots a' butter"
::) O0
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"Meet Ennis at trout stream 3:30, bring corn on the cob, lots a' butter"
::) O0
;D
Back to the green coat, I also wonder about the other pieces of clothing that went with it...
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. . . I also wonder about the other pieces of clothing that went with it...
ebay ALERT - Jack BBM outfit - FYI there is an ebay auction on today and tomorrow Oct 19-20 for one of Jack's jeans and tee-shirt outfits worn in scenes 50 -52 (the post-SNIT frolicking in camp, binocular & chopping wood scene). See this link:
*edited by Mod: We cannot post links to commercial sites on the forum*
Good Luck
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Hi folks! New guy here and just wanted to say I loved that green coat too. I had a couple of coats like that when I was younger, except they were brown, and they were nice!
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Hi Samwise and Welcome :)
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Hi Samwise and Welcome :)
Thanks for the welcome! I'm glad I found this place and look forward to joining the conversations!
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We're glad you found it too. I'm looking forward to your posts. :)
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Hi folks! New guy here and just wanted to say I loved that green coat too. I had a couple of coats like that when I was younger, except they were brown, and they were nice!
Welcome, samwise_fan1965! Do you remember the brand/make of the coats? I would love to know where one can get a similar one these days...
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At the moment I cannot remember the brand either coat was. I got the first one way back when I was just a young lad (back in the seventies). The second was a gift from my aunt for graduation. Funny thing, the second coat was almost identical to the one Jack is wearing during the reunion camping trip. I even wore a black cowboy hat (still do) and drove an old red and white ford pick up!
I can tell you one thing though, those coats were very warm! I am hoping to find another one someday.
I was recently at a western wear store (Drysdales) and asked about the coats and the guy acted like he had never seen one. And he was older than I am!
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At the moment I cannot remember the brand either coat was. I got the first one way back when I was just a young lad (back in the seventies). The second was a gift from my aunt for graduation. Funny thing, the second coat was almost identical to the one Jack is wearing during the reunion camping trip. I even wore a black cowboy hat (still do) and drove an old red and white ford pick up!
I can tell you one thing though, those coats were very warm! I am hoping to find another one someday.
I was recently at a western wear store (Drysdales) and asked about the coats and the guy acted like he had never seen one. And he was older than I am!
Oh God. I am so frustrated at ever tracing the whereabouts of this coat that I would be happy to get a simple replica! Thanks, samwise. I suppose you have lost the second one after so many years...
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I to would still love a coat like jacks green one. looks nice and cozy.
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Yes, unfortunately the coat was lost in an accident several years back. But I am hoping to someday find another one new or used.
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As lightning flat said, it looks nice andcozy!
Too bad, samwise. When you fins another one, do tell us. :)
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You can bet that I will let everyone know if and when I ever find some of these coats!
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You can bet that I will let everyone know if and when I ever find some of these coats!
Thank you.
I have made a draft to James Schamus (inquiring about something that was left hanging in our meeting in NYC last week) and have included a postscript asking about this coat.
:)