Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: Patriot1 on Mar 16, 2006, 08:31 PM
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I am about to say something that is going to sound real crazy.
Just finished watching BBM for the sixty-second time and I just now discovered something I really like about the way the movie was made. Can't imagine why it has taken me this long to realize I like the fact our two boys, and then men don't hang on each other. Their not always touching and pawing at each other. Their not always telling each other that they love each other as if they are trying to convince themselves they do.
The only times they actually touch, when Ennis cut his head, the second tent scene (won't count the first tent scene as that really wasn't touching, that was a violent attack), the reunion, in the motel when Jack held Ennis and Ennis had his hand on Jack's arm, when Jack touched Ennis's ear, when Jack showed up at Ennis's after the divorce and they hugged, when the guys are sleeping in the tent and Ennis is hugging Jack (melt), in the flashback to 1963 when Ennis held Jack and when Jack hugged Ennis when Ennis had the breakdown. Those few times in a movie two hours long made those times so special to me and I think I cry in those spots because they are so special.
Not once do either of them use the words "I love you." Although, Jack did tell Ennis he loved him when he said, "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."
I don't know if the word is sappy but this isn't a sappy love story and I am just now realizing I like that...a lot.
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I concurred, it is not in the words they spoke but in the gesture they exchange that their impact is heartfelt, this is why it relate to so many people, the power of a soften look or in the smile of sincerity, no words needed. superb
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as they say.. actions speak louder than words!
those gestures spoke to us way too louder than saying those 3 little words!
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as they say.. actions speak louder than words!
those gestures spoke to us way too louder than saying those 3 little words!
Sweetlilg - you don't know how right you are.
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Patriot,
It's not crazy. They didn't need to say it or hang all over each other- it was just felt. I think that's one of the reasons it's such a powerful story. It doesn't need to spell it out for you, you are so drawn in by their love that you almost feel a part of it.
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as they say.. actions speak louder than words!
those gestures spoke to us way too louder than saying those 3 little words!
Sweetlilg - you don't know how right you are.
:o
this is the first time someone tells me i'm right! ;D
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Totally agree, the constancy of their affection is apparent without much physical interaction. They make it understood that they are "together" without resorting to an outward display. I too appreciate the restraint demonstrated, maybe it is due to Ang Lee's influence.
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Patriot1 you are so right!
There's another one. First reunion on BBM, after Ennis relates what he witnessed when he was a boy, that tender caress of Jack on Ennis cheek and :-\ That glance from Jack... He is so full of love and compassion.
OK here I go again :'( :'( :'(
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Yeah...I realized the first time that I saw it that neither Ennis or Jack ever said "I love you." I think the most amazing thing about their love is there was no need for word or actions. It was understood. And that is very rare that a relationship can hold so much love and affection and still have that understanding that "hey, this person is my soulmate." I would love to get to that point in a relationship. It's unbelievable. ;D
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Patriot1 you are so right!
There's another one. First reunion on BBM, after Ennis relates what he witnessed when he was a boy, that tender caress of Jack on Ennis cheek and :- That glance from Jack... He is so full of love and compassion.
OK here I go again :'( :'( :'(
I thought he touched his ear and cheek and then the back of his neck Cham. But, I didn't miss it. I could never miss that one, I cry like a nut when I see that.
By the way, the boys never went back to Brokeback...or so I have read somewhere. Can't remember if Ang, Jake or Heath said it.
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Patriot1 you are so right!
There's another one. First reunion on BBM, after Ennis relates what he witnessed when he was a boy, that tender caress of Jack on Ennis cheek and :- That glance from Jack... He is so full of love and compassion.
OK here I go again :'( :'( :'(
I thought he touched his ear and cheek and then the back of his neck Cham. But, I didn't miss it. I could never miss that one, I cry like a nut when I see that.
By the way, the boys never went back to Brokeback...or so I have read somewhere. Can't remember if Ang, Jake or Heath said it.
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By the way, the boys never went back to Brokeback...or so I have read somewhere. Can't remember if Ang, Jake or Heath said it.
The short story said that they never went back. There was a passage where they list a number of different mountains that they visit then finishes with "but never returning to Brokeback."
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By the way, the boys never went back to Brokeback...or so I have read somewhere. Can't remember if Ang, Jake or Heath said it.
The short story said that they never went back. There was a passage where they list a number of different mountains that they visit then finishes with "but never returning to Brokeback."
I thought I had read that.
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Thank you for bringing this topic to our attention. I agree. I think that their love is conveyed in such a genuine manner. Their love goes beyond words. It is in the way they look at one another. It transcends all other love stories.
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As noted before, the word 'love' appears only twice -- in the last scene between Alma Jr. and Ennis.
When the words are exchanged, the context is supposedly between Alma Jr. and her husband-to-be Kurt.
From the screenplay directives and the look on Ennis's face after the exchange, it is obvious that the true context is between Ennis and Jack.
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By the way, the boys never went back to Brokeback...or so I have read somewhere. Can't remember if Ang, Jake or Heath said it.
The short story said that they never went back. There was a passage where they list a number of different mountains that they visit then finishes with "but never returning to Brokeback."
However in the movie we do assume they DID go back...correct????
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By the way, the boys never went back to Brokeback...or so I have read somewhere. Can't remember if Ang, Jake or Heath said it.
The short story said that they never went back. There was a passage where they list a number of different mountains that they visit then finishes with "but never returning to Brokeback."
However in the movie we do assume they DID go back...correct????
The screenplay indicates the mountains of Wyoming (not specifically Brokeback) for the fishing trips. From the movie, it would at least seem that the location of their later trips has a view of Brokeback Mountain...
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I think the suggestion from both the short story and the movie is that they could never get back to what Brokeback Mountain represented to them, that "moment of artless, charmed happiness..." While the movie does not explicitly say that they never went back, we only see it in the distance in their final camping trip together.
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By the way, the boys never went back to Brokeback...or so I have read somewhere. Can't remember if Ang, Jake or Heath said it.
The short story said that they never went back. There was a passage where they list a number of different mountains that they visit then finishes with "but never returning to Brokeback."
However in the movie we do assume they DID go back...correct????
Don't know about anybody else, but I never got the impression they ever went back to BBM from the movie.
If they had gone back once because it meant so much to them, why wouldn't they ALWAYS go back at each visit of Jack? Yet we know they didn't.
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It would seem they went back to the same place multiple times (we see the same outcropping where they skinny-dipping dove off of more than once) though we don't know for sure if they always came back to this same spot or varied. Actually, it's fairly like that Don Wroe's cabin (where they went once and hunted) didn't just happen to be near the same place where they were when they first went in 1967. I'd guess they frequented some of the same places again and again.
But why never back to Brokeback Mountain?
Yes, metaphorically it works out well for the story not to take them back there. But there are other more practical reasons:
--They were there that first summer not to hunt or fish but to herd sheep. There were probably other places elsewhere with better hunting / fishing / camping. Places that Jack or Ennis might have been more familiar with as good spots.
--The specific places where they were on Brokeback were open allotments for grazing and nearby campsites. If they went back there they may well have run into other sheepherders.
--It was already a decent drive from Riverton to the Bighorns. In 1963 they had to go to Brokeback because that's where Aguirre had a permit to graze sheep on Forest Service land. It was remote enough that Ennis had to come down off the mountain just to meet the food supply each week. Where our boys seem to go has relatively easy road access. Going up to Brokeback might be a pain.
To me there are good reasons for them not to be back at Brokeback. Otherwise it's just a metaphor on never being able to recapture the freedom and bliss of that first summer, and it risks coming off as ham-handed.
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In life if you watch friends who break up , or there may be someone you broke up with, you will notice that those that are the most insecure about their relationship are the ones who constantly need to hear those three "little" words. Real love is shown by tiny nuances in your behavior - a sigh when you look at your lover, a knowing look, feeling so at ease when both of you are just sitting in the same room, maybe reading or watching TV...the words aren't important it's the emotion.
I have a brother 18 months my junior who I fought with constantly growing up...this went on for years and one day in our twenties during a nasty spat he said "you never once said that you love me". This hurt me more than any punch he'd ever thrown at me. but I suddenly realised why he constantly picked fights with me. I just grabbed him and hugged him and said " I love you very much you idiot, but I should never have to say it, you should be able to feel it.
Now we never fight.. and once years later when we were drunk he told me that once he started trying to feel the love instead of hear it, then it washed over him in waves...not just from me but from all those people that he loved.
I don't think Jack and Ennis said I love you beacause it was utterly obvious, totally heartfelt and true. The words were as unecessary as saying you are my friend.
Tom
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Now we never fight.. and once years later when we were drunk he told me that once he started trying to feel the love instead of hear it, then it washed over him in waves...not just from me but from all those people that he loved.
I don't think Jack and Ennis said I love you because it was utterly obvious, totally heartfelt and true. The words were as unnecessary as saying you are my friend.
Tom
Well that's just beautiful, thanks so much for sharing. I like that description, "washed over him in waves", its a pure imagine of how love is felt, not seen or heard.
I started thinking after seeing BBM the first few times, that the first sign we have that Ennis is developing feelings for Jack is when he adds soup to their food list early that summer on Brokeback.
He claims it's cause he's sick of beans, but we know it's Jack who wants a change. He's even a little defensive in his response to the "thought you didn't eat soup" remark, like he's embarrassed to be caught doing something nice. It's a little thing that Ennis is doing but it says "I'm thinking of you and putting your desires before my own".
Kind of makes me think he's crushing on Jack even that early in the summer. Actions, not words.
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I started thinking after seeing BBM the first few times, that the first sign we have that Ennis is developing feelings for Jack is when he adds soup to their food list early that summer on Brokeback.
He claims it's cause he's sick of beans, but we know it's Jack who wants a change. He's even a little defensive in his response to the "thought you didn't eat soup" remark, like he's embarrassed to be caught doing something nice. It's a little thing that Ennis is doing but it says "I'm thinking of you and putting your desires before my own".
Kind of makes me think he's crushing on Jack even that early in the summer. Actions, not words.
I never ever thought of that in all the times I've seen it...but it is so true. How many times to we go somewhere or do something, or watch a video, or cook a particular meal because it's what the one you love wants rather than yourself.
Thank you for this insight.
Tom
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Very nice story, Tombul!
And yes, I think there are more and more signs of Ennis' growing regard for Jack the closer you look. It's funny. The first viewing or two I really was drawn to Ennis with empathy and love. Then it was for many many viewings Jack that I linked closer with. Now it's back to Ennis as I grow to appreciate more and more all the ways he shows love to Jack and to his girls as well.
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That's the greatness of this movie, and of this love story.
No words were needed to express the love they felt for each other. Just their actions, the looks, the years of meeting hiding from the rest of the world.Jack never reproaching about him driving from Texas to Wyoming, or Ennis leaving his job and family to be with Jack...THAT'S TRUE LOVE!!! why do you need saying "I love you"?
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I am about to say something that is going to sound real crazy.
Just finished watching BBM for the sixty-second time and I just now discovered something I really like about the way the movie was made. Can't imagine why it has taken me this long to realize I like the fact our two boys, and then men don't hang on each other. Their not always touching and pawing at each other. Their not always telling each other that they love each other as if they are trying to convince themselves they do.
The only times they actually touch, when Ennis cut his head, the second tent scene (won't count the first tent scene as that really wasn't touching, that was a violent attack), the reunion, in the motel when Jack held Ennis and Ennis had his hand on Jack's arm, when Jack touched Ennis's ear, when Jack showed up at Ennis's after the divorce and they hugged, when the guys are sleeping in the tent and Ennis is hugging Jack (melt), in the flashback to 1963 when Ennis held Jack and when Jack hugged Ennis when Ennis had the breakdown. Those few times in a movie two hours long made those times so special to me and I think I cry in those spots because they are so special.
Not once do either of them use the words "I love you." Although, Jack did tell Ennis he loved him when he said, "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."
I don't know if the word is sappy but this isn't a sappy love story and I am just now realizing I like that...a lot.
So true....and so basic to the story. Annie wrote about two rough and tumble guys who would not have known any other way. Had they been overly emotional or touchy the whole story would not have rang so true. These were just regular guys....brought up in a strait jacket society...who could not communicate on any other level..this is the whole point of who they are...according to both the short story and the movie. That sparseness is what makes it so damn powerful!
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Now we never fight.. and once years later when we were drunk he told me that once he started trying to feel the love instead of hear it, then it washed over him in waves...not just from me but from all those people that he loved.
I don't think Jack and Ennis said I love you because it was utterly obvious, totally heartfelt and true. The words were as unnecessary as saying you are my friend.
Tom
Well that's just beautiful, thanks so much for sharing. I like that description, "washed over him in waves", its a pure imagine of how love is felt, not seen or heard.
I started thinking after seeing BBM the first few times, that the first sign we have that Ennis is developing feelings for Jack is when he adds soup to their food list early that summer on Brokeback.
He claims it's cause he's sick of beans, but we know it's Jack who wants a change. He's even a little defensive in his response to the "thought you didn't eat soup" remark, like he's embarrassed to be caught doing something nice. It's a little thing that Ennis is doing but it says "I'm thinking of you and putting your desires before my own".
Kind of makes me think he's crushing on Jack even that early in the summer. Actions, not words.
Well you just knocked me on the floor. It explains the whole scene which I was wondering about. Ang doesn't waste footage and now I can understand the whole scene. Thanks so much.
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You know, that's the great twist to Brokeback Mountain. Jack and Ennis just know the love is true. But I think - towards the end - Jack was after more than words. He wanted Ennis to act and go establish a life together. Ennis never could do this, but I believe in their final argument where he says "I'm nowhere I'm nothing" that he's effectively saying "you want proof I love you, well look at this - I've given up my WHOLE LIFE FOR YOU JACK TWIST!!!". I think in his own introspective, conservative way that's the closet Ennis Del Mar could come to saying "I love you". Not until Jack has gone, and Ennis has no way of telling Jack he loved him, does Ennis understand the importance of expressing love fully. We see that in his conversation with his daughter and his decision - after all those years - to be there for his little girl. So in a funny kind of way, whilst Ennis was full of actions for Jack, it wasn't quite the right kinda actions Jack needed. IMHO. Still, I do believe that Jack instinctively knew Jack loved him. Let's be honest, you just know.
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Isn't it interesting that an idea is more powerful in deed many times than word? Love is an idea...one that goes beyond words. We humans tend to be overshadowed by our words more so than the ideas for which these words stand. If we truly embrace our ideas, then would it be possible to have more in life? The act of loving relies upon actions to convey each person's idea.
Ideas have a tendency of being much like a domino effect...one idea builds into many. How else can we explain what has happened to us here? We seem to have "fallen" in love with one another...we support each other and we share respect, dignity and hope for the future. We are the dominos that have been "influenced" by the domino of BBM. Life will never seem the same to me. And with each new day that dawns...the sunshine has greater meaning for me with the knowledge that I share this day with the remarkable, lovely and courageous members here. You have become my sunshine!
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We seem to have "fallen" in love with one another...we support each other and we share respect, dignity and hope for the future. We are the dominos that have been "influenced" by the domino of BBM. Life will never seem the same to me. And with each new day that dawns...the sunshine has greater meaning for me with the knowledge that I share this day with the remarkable, lovely and courageous members here. You have become my sunshine!
Dr bill I loved your post its so true, the above words brought tears to my eyes, I feel the same, thanks for sharing.
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there are sometimes when the words are not needed, this is the case the look on their eyes the need of keep seeing each other and the long travels they did to be together was the real way of showing that they love each other. i'm not going to lie i was hoping that they would claim their love but i was aware that they wouldn't do it. they express their love in the way that was best for them by seeing each other. When you love someone no matter what happens you always keep the link open to be with that person (Oh no! i'm crying again) Jack and Ennis are the most wonderful examples their relationship lasted so long because none of them give up on that.
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there are sometimes when the words are not needed, this is the case the look on their eyes the need of keep seeing each other and the long travels they did to be together was the real way of showing that they love each other. i'm not going to lie i was hoping that they would claim their love but i was aware that they wouldn't do it. they express their love in the way that was best for them by seeing each other. When you love someone no matter what happens you always keep the link open to be with that person (Oh no! i'm crying again) Jack and Ennis are the most wonderful examples their relationship lasted so long because none of them give up on that.
matsuki33, I thank you. "When you love someone no matter what happens you always keep the link open to be with that person" - this statement of yours is Truth itself.
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Thanks Tpe! it is just something that my grandmother told us the day my mother passed away, she asked us the keep the link open so we would never forget her. i really identify with the feeling of not saying I love you, i mean i love my family and they loved me but we don't really say the word we show that by our way of treatment we are always together when it is needed and we say our love on our eyes. i do the same with my gilrfriend i had said to her I love you like 10 or 15 times but she knows i love her for the way i make her feel. i truly believe that love is more than words is beyond that it can't be measure just with words.
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Thanks Tpe! it is just something that my grandmother told us the day my mother passed away, she asked us the keep the link open so we would never forget her. i really identify with the feeling of not saying I love you, i mean i love my family and they loved me but we don't really say the word we show that by our way of treatment we are always together when it is needed and we say our love on our eyes. i do the same with my gilrfriend i had said to her I love you like 10 or 15 times but she knows i love her for the way i make her feel. i truly believe that love is more than words is beyond that it can't be measure just with words.
matsuki33, I cannot even begin to tell you how many times in my life I had realized the truth of your grandmother's statement. There is a residue in the heart that stays forever -- no matter how much pain, no matter how much hurt, no matter how much doubt, no matter how much loss.
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exactly i know that, when my grandmother passed away i remember that i left my beedroom door open and i still do because she used to enter in my room and sing lullabies for me. this is one of the things that link me a lot with the movie even after they their link was more stronger than ever! :'(
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It only makes the scenes where the two boys do exchange a loving "touch", all the more poignant and "real"...
I've found in my experience as a film buff, that "a little goes a long way"...(especially in films!)
Ang Lee made so many right decisions when making this film...! Such great directing!
sam
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Totally agree with you sam
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Yes, no one else could have done it this way.
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yes, a little goes a long way: less is more. In another post someone commented on the "Asian" quality of Ang Lee's directing: long silences, slow takes.....every detail nuanced.......but the lack of touching and "I love you"s is of course part of the story, of inarticulate love, and on Ennis' part, supressed love.
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Tombul, I loved your story. My family did not frequent excahnge endearments. However, since my brother died at a young age we can not say I love you enough. This has continued with my own kids. I constantly say I love you. You just never know when someone will not be there anymore.
Of course actions speak louder than words and I was very touched by the way Jack and Ennis displayed their love, but somehow I wish they gotten the opportunity to actually say those three little words to each other. It's funny whenever I hear the song, "Noone's gonna love you like me." I think how nice it would have been if Ennis and Jack could have danced to that song together. Pretty silly, but I picture it in my mind everytime I hear it.
Now I will play the devil's advocate. I believe the lack of physical intimacy in this movie has helped its acceptance. I am a heterosexual and to be brutally honest I did not enjoy seeing that first sexual scene. Maybe, it was the violence of it. I don't know. I came away initially asking myself if this is the way men display affection for each other. Even the kiss after four years time was a lttle rough for my liking. I am embarrassed to admit my ignorance and my stereotypng, but that is how I felt. I was not offended at all by any other scene, including the second tent scene perhaps because of its tenderness. So, perhaps the limited displays of affection were done purposely, so that more people could accept this movie and homosexuality?????????????
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Now I will play the devil's advocate. I believe the lack of physical intimacy in this movie has helped its acceptance. I am a heterosexual and to be brutally honest I did not enjoy seeing that first sexual scene. Maybe, it was the violence of it. I don't know. I came away initially asking myself if this is the way men display affection for each other. Even the kiss after four years time was a lttle rough for my liking. I am embarrassed to admit my ignorance and my stereotypng, but that is how I felt. I was not offended at all by any other scene, including the second tent scene perhaps because of its tenderness. So, perhaps the limited displays of affection were done purposely, so that more people could accept this movie and homosexuality?????????????
As someone who knew he was gay from about the age of nine but lived and grew in a rough area in Edinburgh, where to be a poof would get you beaten through school and onwards, I tried to be a good " straight" man and went out with a number of girls (and had sex with them) just to be " normal". I can assure you that rough and violent sex is not limited to gay men. Ask any women who has been abused regularly by a husband or partner. But in this film I think you are confusing aggression with raw last and passion. I feel the first sex scene is exactly what I would have expected from a straight man in the 1960's. He was part disgusted with his feelings but overcoms by the passion and strength of his feelings at that point. Also in the 1960's " new man" who is supposedly more in touch with his feelings was still 30 years or so away. Men looked on sex as a right and as an extension of their masculinity. Women in those days were not supposed to enjoy sex.
This film is set in the same decade that Lady Chatterleys Lover was brought to trial in the UK. It was said at that time that the book was too rude for women and that women were not interested in sex. So I don't think we can look at the "sex" in this movie through 2006 eyes. The lack of affection shown by men was typical at that time. I grew up in the sixties and my father was one of 13 children and my mother one of 10 ...and I never once saw a single Uncle or Aunt show affection to each other. The ones of my generation and younger all do.
As for the kiss - well after being apart for 4 years. Have you never watched a soldier on the news home from a tour of duty, kiss his wife and be kissed so passionately as if they are the only two people on the planet. Jack and Ennis were apart for 4 years and longed for each other the whole time, it is evident in what has been voted one of the best kisses ever in a movie
Sorry to ramble , but this got to me.
Tom
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Thanks Tom, great posting, you make a lot of sense.
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My thanks too Tom, your post makes a great deal of sense. Now I'm confused about another post of yours on a different thread but I'll address it there.
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As for the kiss - well after being apart for 4 years. Have you never watched a soldier on the news home from a tour of duty, kiss his wife and be kissed so passionately as if they are the only two people on the planet. Jack and Ennis were apart for 4 years and longed for each other the whole time, it is evident in what has been voted one of the best kisses ever in a movie
I agree...not just soldiers, but people who have been appart for years embrace that way too.
Sorry to ramble , but this got to me.
Tom
Ramble as much as you want xxx