Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: lacy8753 on Jan 30, 2006, 05:27 PM
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Did Jack's dad know he was gay? He's obviously furious with Jack but he's been furious with him since he was a little boy (bathroom scene). He sounds like he's mad because Jack has repeatedly promised to help him with the ranch and never did. This makes a tentative case for Jack having a violent death and his dad finding out that way...or maybe not?
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Did Jack's dad know he was gay? He's obviously furious with Jack but he's been furious with him since he was a little boy (bathroom scene). He sounds like he's mad because Jack has repeatedly promised to help him with the ranch and never did. This makes a tentative case for Jack having a violent death and his dad finding out that way...or maybe not?
I have read the short story and seen the movie 4 times. I think both Jacks parents knew. Jacks mom was very kind to Ennis...Jacks dad just seemed bitter. He just seemed to me like a man who knew his son was "different"...and of course unacceptable in that time and place. Jack mentions that he could not please his dad "no way". Yeah....he knew.
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I too assumed his parents knew, and his dad was just bitter and made sure that Jack's ashes wouldnt go with Ennis to Brokeback Mountain.. where their "sins" were committed..and he made sure he was burried with family, thats how I interpreted it.
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I have read the short story and seen the movie 4 times. I think both Jacks parents knew. Jacks mom was very kind to Ennis...Jacks dad just seemed bitter. He just seemed to me like a man who knew his son was "different"...and of course unacceptable in that time and place. Jack mentions that he could not please his dad "no way". Yeah....he knew.
I agree Jack's was bitter but not because he possibly knew of Jack's preferences. Witness from the short story:
He had been about three or four, he said, always late getting to the toilet, struggling with buttons, the seat, the height of the thing and often as not left the surroundings sprinkled down. The old man blew up about it and this one time worked into a crazy rage. "Christ, he licked the stuffin out a me, knocked me down on the bathroom floor, whipped me with his belt. I thought he was killin me. [/color]
This man had issues... perhaps from a failed rodeo career? Recall Jack told Ennis his father never came to see him ride or gave him any advice on bull riding.
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Of course he knew.
The old man sat silent, his hands folded on the plastic tablecloth, staring at Ennis with an angry, knowing expression. Ennis recognized in him a not uncommon type with the hard need to be the stud duck in the pond.
Jack had, over the years, dropped all sorts of hints, and when Ennis showed up, he could finally put a face on 'Ennis del Mar...'
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I too assumed his parents knew, and his dad was just bitter and made sure that Jack's ashes wouldnt go with Ennis to Brokeback Mountain.. where their "sins" were committed..and he made sure he was burried with family, thats how I interpreted it.
For sure he knew about his son's sexuality. It seems obvious, indeed. You're right. The passage which allows me to say that is when Jack's father evokes his son's masculine conquests. With respect to that, when Jack tells Ennis that he cheats his wife with a friend's wife, he lies, doesn't he?? Obviously, he may have had sex with the friend he evokes, not with this friend's wife. What do u think?
Merry
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Definately wasn't LaShawn, it was Randall. Either someone found out about that, or Jack perhaps may have tried to 'pick-up' someone who wasn't so receptive, hence the beating from the 3.
Jack's father was a mean s.o.b. He knew Jack was gay, he might be an old country sod, but he knows what it means when a man divorces his wife and was going to set up shop up at Lightining Flat.
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Definately wasn't LaShawn, it was Randall. Either someone found out about that, or Jack perhaps may have tried to 'pick-up' someone who wasn't so receptive, hence the beating from the 3.
Jack's father was a mean s.o.b. He knew Jack was gay, he might be an old country sod, but he knows what it means when a man divorces his wife and was going to set up shop up at Lightining Flat.
Yet, something doesn't quite click...if Jack's dad knew Jack was gay, why would Jack even entertain and and verbalizethe notion of bringing not one, but two, guys over to build a house and live on the ranch with. Seems to me that if Jack's dad was so homophobic he would have run Jack and certainly not even entertain the idea of Jack having a 'friend' live on the ranch.
So, I think the dad was more upset at the family's harsh economic situation. Probably brought on by himself by his bitterness, perhaps due to his own bull- riding days. (failures?) It seemed that to me, from the story, that the father was more upset that he didn't get any help on the ranch. I recall Jack wanted to ride bulls... Jack mentioned his father would not share his secrets or come see him ride. Sounds like the father didn't want Jack to be a successful bul-lrider and leave the ranch. He needed the help!
Ideas??
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Cherry Cake - I'd agree that Jack's dad wanted the help and didn't want him to be a bull rider, but he also said that all of Jack's ideas were dreams, like he knew it, like all others would never come to pass, and that Jack was in a sense - no good for the family ranch - He was as his dad said, "too special" on brokeback.
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Cherry Cake - I'd agree that Jack's dad wanted the help and didn't want him to be a bull rider, but he also said that all of Jack's ideas were dreams, like he knew it, like all others would never come to pass, and that Jack was in a sense - no good for the family ranch - He was as his dad said, "too special" on brokeback.
Something else to think about along the line of Jack being "too special"...even though Jack's dad may have known what was going on with Jack, I think he harbored additional resentment. When he said "he thought he was too G.D. special to be buried in the family plot!" I felt he harbored some jealously because Jack lived a more affluent life compared to him. Even if Jack had offered financial assistance over the years, I doubt Mr. Twist would have accepted the help. My God, look at the condition of the ranch!
Just something to think about.
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Well, without knowing what other dreams that Jack's dad was referring to it's hard to be sure if they were true failures or just something Jack's dad didn't like... but we can speculate...
We know this: Jack was outgoing. He was handsome. He was gregarious. He was gay. So, his other dreams probably didn't involve staying on the ranch....unless they involved another guy there for him... hmmm.
And Jack's dad apparently never ruled out the idea of Jack having a male friend on the ranch. If he had Jack would not have brought it up the second time with a new guy I think.
As for 'being special' yes, I think there was some resentment for Jack's wealth. Being from Texas I know about family plots and being asked to be buried alone on a mountain rather than the ancestors could be taken as an insult. (lol this is something I found kind of funny by the way... here this dirt poor family even HAS a family burial area! Unless you know that in Bloomington in Victoria County for example, all natives born there are guaranteed a free plot.) By deciding where Jack would be buried would have given this bitter man his power--which of course is sad. But seems in character for him.
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Cherrycake - you are right. It's one decision the old man has power over Jack on. If I was Ennis, I'd sneak up there and dig up that damn urn, put it in my cowboy hat, replace it with fireplace ashes, then high tail it up to Brokeback.
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If I was Ennis, I'd sneak up there and dig up that damn urn, put it in my cowboy hat, replace it with fireplace ashes, then high tail it up to Brokeback.
lol yes. As would I.
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If I was Ennis, I'd sneak up there and dig up that damn urn, put it in my cowboy hat, replace it with fireplace ashes, then high tail it up to Brokeback.
That sounds like a scene from Six Feet Under. I have to agree. Jack's ashes should go where he wanted them.
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Re: Jack bringing Ennis/Randall up to Ligtning Flat: I too was struck by the line in the story where Jack's father begins his talk with Ennis by saying:" I can't get any help up here." I think in the context of ranch culture in the West, being able to hang onto your land is the highest priority, and I think it is at least a distinct possibility that his father would have been able to force himself to look the other way if Jack did bring one of those guys up there to live with him if they kept fairly dicscreet about it. I have seen similar dynamics at work in other families where being gay wasn't exactly tolerated, but subject to an uneasy and forever unspoken truce.
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Proulxfan - I have that already, the unspoken truce between my father and I. I don't mention it, and he ignores it. My mom, thats another story. Dad asked me not to tell her, so I respect his wishes, but somewhere deep down she has to know, but I don't think she wants to hear it. It makes that part of my life tough.
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Proulxfan - I have that already, the unspoken truce between my father and I. I don't mention it, and he ignores it. My mom, thats another story. Dad asked me not to tell her, so I respect his wishes, but somewhere deep down she has to know, but I don't think she wants to hear it. It makes that part of my life tough.
My situation is kind of similar. My Mom knows. I told her back in '87. Her response was "I was waiting for you to tell me." It explains why she never asked who I was dating or if there would be any grandchildren from my camp. She doesn't approve of same-sex relationships but she doesn't sit in judgement of me either. We rarely discuss the subject which is fine with me. My Dad lives in another town and I suspect he knows. I never came right out and told him. All I know is that he stopped asking about future grandchildren in '88. He doesn't ask, and I don't tell. ;)
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Don't ask don't tell, more than military people living with that one. But for me, I know that will all change this year, probably either late summer or early fall. My Bubba graduated from Grad School and got a new job at a University only 20 miles from me, so we are moving in together, we've both waited so long for this to happen, and we'll if the rest of the world doesn't like it, they can lick my boot heels. I'm not sacrificing my happiness any longer to keep the parents comfortable.
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Don't ask don't tell, more than military people living with that one. But for me, I know that will all change this year, probably either late summer or early fall. My Bubba graduated from Grad School and got a new job at a University only 20 miles from me, so we are moving in together, we've both waited so long for this to happen, and we'll if the rest of the world doesn't like it, they can lick my boot heels. I'm not sacrificing my happiness any longer to keep the parents comfortable.
Good for you Cody!!!! I'll probably do the same thing in the event I ever have that to look forward to.
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Cody! Hurray for you!!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
And to both you and Jarwill,
What are the chances of asking your parents to see this movie and allowing it to work its peculiar magic?? Hearts and minds are being changed. I know how very touchy this may be, but if having a more honest and open relationship with your folks is important to you, I think it's worth a shot. Sorry if I am "trespassing in the shoot-em zone". :-\
But it's for their sake as well as yours. I keep thinking of Anne Bancroft's line in "Torch Song Trilogy: "You shut me out of your life,and then blamed me for not being there." Sorry, crying again.
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Don't ask don't tell, more than military people living with that one. But for me, I know that will all change this year, probably either late summer or early fall. My Bubba graduated from Grad School and got a new job at a University only 20 miles from me, so we are moving in together, we've both waited so long for this to happen, and we'll if the rest of the world doesn't like it, they can lick my boot heels. I'm not sacrificing my happiness any longer to keep the parents comfortable.
Go for it! Yeah , I'm really happy for you, it's great. ;D ;D ;D
:-*
Froggy
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I'm planning on telling them to go see it after I see a 3rd time. I think they both need to be educated on the subject. Don't get me wrong, my parents are both loving, great folks, but they are midwest mentalities. Plus that neither of them have really traveled to experience different cultures and ideas.
Proulxfan & Froggy - Thanks for the encouragement, it means alot. I always figured people and places come to me for a reason and you guys are now a part of that.
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You're welcome, I am sincerely happy for you! ;D
Big moua from me!
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Aww Shucks! :)
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Aww Shucks! :)
No need, I mean it ;)
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You're a Sweetie! :-*
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Cody! Hurray for you!!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
And to both you and Jarwill,
What are the chances of asking your parents to see this movie and allowing it to work its peculiar magic?? Hearts and minds are being changed. I know how very touchy this may be, but if having a more honest and open relationship with your folks is important to you, I think it's worth a shot. Sorry if I am "trespassing in the shoot-em zone". :-
But it's for their sake as well as yours. I keep thinking of Anne Bancroft's line in "Torch Song Trilogy: "You shut me out of your life,and then blamed me for not being there." Sorry, crying again.
I'd love for both parents to see the movie. Unfortunately, I know them both well enough to know they would walk out early into the film. The language or the first tent scene would do it. I'd like to believe there's a chance I could be wrong but...I'm probably not. For now I'll just live under the illusion that we have an open relationship. ;)
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I'm planning on telling them to go see it after I see a 3rd time. I think they both need to be educated on the subject. Don't get me wrong, my parents are both loving, great folks, but they are midwest mentalities. Plus that neither of them have really traveled to experience different cultures and ideas.
Go for it! great for you!
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Rane - Thanks buddy. :) It's either sooner or later. I don't know how big of place we will get, but I don't want anything huge. I want comfortable, and I want to travel. Bubba and I are only going to have ONE bedroom and a guestroom or maybe two. After us cowpokes get settled down, maybe I'll have a place where people who want to come see Amish Country can stay. I'm 20 minutes from the largest Amish settled area in the US.
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aw... how sweet. I just hope you always have on hand a cherry cake for when you Brokkie freinds stop by... tee hee
Congrats, hun
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Y'all are gonna get Cherrycake, coffee, beans, elk, & whiskey! Y'all know you would be welcome any time! :D
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I really don't think Jack's parents knew he was gay. I really can't see it. Judging by all the posts on individual threads everyone seems to think everyone is in on the "relationship." **teehee** Remember that there are two sides of small town and/or country life. There are the things that are gossiped and the things that stay with yourself. "It's nobody's business but ours" is that side of the personal secrets.
The idea of Jack being buried in the family plot is just another way of bringing Jack back into "society." He will never rest in the open air and freedom he loved. He will be placed side by side with the dead in a cramped grid. He can't even escape conformity in death.
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Y'all are gonna get Cherrycake, coffee, beans, elk, & whiskey! Y'all know you would be welcome any time! :D
What?! no fish!? teehee
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I want my guests to have a good time, Not pass out! ;D
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I really don't think Jack's parents knew he was gay. I really can't see it. Judging by all the posts on individual threads everyone seems to think everyone is in on the "relationship." **teehee** Remember that there are two sides of small town and/or country life. There are the things that are gossiped and the things that stay with yourself. "It's nobody's business but ours" is that side of the personal secrets.
The idea of Jack being buried in the family plot is just another way of bringing Jack back into "society." He will never rest in the open air and freedom he loved. He will be placed side by side with the dead in a cramped grid. He can't even escape conformity in death.
My belief that Jack's dad knew stems mainly from the passage in the short story where he looks at Ennis with an angry, knowing expression. And in the film, there's that wonderful/awful shot of him spitting tobacco in his cup. I can't think of a better way to indicate contempt, short of spitting directly in Ennis's face.
You're comments on Jack's being buried in the family plot seem very perceptive and right on the money.
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If I was Ennis, I'd sneak up there and dig up that damn urn, put it in my cowboy hat, replace it with fireplace ashes, then high tail it up to Brokeback.
LOL We sure think alike on that one!
That is exactly what I thought when I read it.
He was my love you dirty ole S.O.B and I will bury him where he wanted to be buried.
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didn't jack say that his father was into rodeo too... maybe jack's father was just like jack. however, mr. twist ended up conforming to society and jack did not. maybe that is why mr twist is so angry/mad at jack. what do you guys think...
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I think Mr. Twist was as straight as an arrow, but I think he saw in Jack those things he wouldn't allow himself, in others words, moving away from Lightin'n Flat to grandeur pastures of life and chances at a better living.
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I'm a little late on this, but congratulations, Cowboy...may all your dreams come true. :)
Mr. Twist is angry and bitter on several counts, maybe not first because of homophobia. Jack got "out," had money, position (maybe not so much to us, but it must have appeared so to his dad). He's angry at Jack for thinking he's too "goddamn special," for not helping enough, for just being different. Although Jack must have helped out some, because he mentions going up to the ranch at least a couple of times.
I think Mr. Twist is mostly angry at life. Jack is just one more disappointment. Interesting how he is a bitter man, yet Jack's mom glows with compassion.
camom
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Mr. Twist is angry and bitter on several counts, maybe not first because of homophobia. Jack got "out," had money, position (maybe not so much to us, but it must have appeared so to his dad). He's angry at Jack for thinking he's too "goddamn special," for not helping enough, for just being different. Although Jack must have helped out some, because he mentions going up to the ranch at least a couple of times.
I think Mr. Twist is mostly angry at life. Jack is just one more disappointment. Interesting how he is a bitter man, yet Jack's mom glows with compassion.
camom
camom, it seems we think alike on this subject. I posted similar comments under another topic about a week ago. I too felt Mr. Twist may have harbored resentment towards Jack because he lived a more affluent lifestyle in comparison. This could be a reason behind the "he thought he was too G.D. special ..." remark. I couldn't imagine Jack not offering to help his parents financially. I can imagine Mr. Twist limiting or refusing help from Jack as a result of his own pride and resentment.
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Mr. Twist is angry and bitter on several counts, maybe not first because of homophobia. Jack got "out," had money, position (maybe not so much to us, but it must have appeared so to his dad). He's angry at Jack for thinking he's too "goddamn special," for not helping enough, for just being different. Although Jack must have helped out some, because he mentions going up to the ranch at least a couple of times.
I think Mr. Twist is mostly angry at life. Jack is just one more disappointment. Interesting how he is a bitter man, yet Jack's mom glows with compassion.
camom
camom, it seems we think alike on this subject. I posted similar comments under another topic about a week ago. I too felt Mr. Twist may have harbored resentment towards Jack because he lived a more affluent lifestyle in comparison. This could be a reason behind the "he thought he was too G.D. special ..." remark. I couldn't imagine Jack not offering to help his parents financially. I can imagine Mr. Twist limiting or refusing help from Jack as a result of his own pride and resentment.
The man just exudes venom, doesn't he? I'd bet the main reason Jack came back at all was to see his mom.
camom
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Mr. Twist is angry and bitter on several counts, maybe not first because of homophobia. Jack got "out," had money, position (maybe not so much to us, but it must have appeared so to his dad). He's angry at Jack for thinking he's too "goddamn special," for not helping enough, for just being different. Although Jack must have helped out some, because he mentions going up to the ranch at least a couple of times.
I think Mr. Twist is mostly angry at life. Jack is just one more disappointment. Interesting how he is a bitter man, yet Jack's mom glows with compassion.
camom
camom, it seems we think alike on this subject. I posted similar comments under another topic about a week ago. I too felt Mr. Twist may have harbored resentment towards Jack because he lived a more affluent lifestyle in comparison. This could be a reason behind the "he thought he was too G.D. special ..." remark. I couldn't imagine Jack not offering to help his parents financially. I can imagine Mr. Twist limiting or refusing help from Jack as a result of his own pride and resentment.
The man just exudes venom, doesn't he? I'd bet the main reason Jack came back at all was to see his mom.
camom
I have no doubt. The old man in the story was even worse to Jack. What he did was inexcusable to Jack as a youngster. There are reasons why people behave as they do, and why Jack needed the love of Ennis so badly.
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Mr. Twist is angry and bitter on several counts, maybe not first because of homophobia. Jack got "out," had money, position (maybe not so much to us, but it must have appeared so to his dad). He's angry at Jack for thinking he's too "goddamn special," for not helping enough, for just being different. Although Jack must have helped out some, because he mentions going up to the ranch at least a couple of times.
I think Mr. Twist is mostly angry at life. Jack is just one more disappointment. Interesting how he is a bitter man, yet Jack's mom glows with compassion.
camom
camom, it seems we think alike on this subject. I posted similar comments under another topic about a week ago. I too felt Mr. Twist may have harbored resentment towards Jack because he lived a more affluent lifestyle in comparison. This could be a reason behind the "he thought he was too G.D. special ..." remark. I couldn't imagine Jack not offering to help his parents financially. I can imagine Mr. Twist limiting or refusing help from Jack as a result of his own pride and resentment.
The man just exudes venom, doesn't he? I'd bet the main reason Jack came back at all was to see his mom.
camom
I have no doubt. The old man in the story was even worse to Jack. What he did was inexcusable to Jack as a youngster. There are reasons why people behave as they do, and why Jack needed the love of Ennis so badly.
The story of what Jack's dad did to him as a child parallels Ennis' childhood story of the murder in its shock and horror. The only part I didn't agree with was the circumcision aspect. I didn't think it rang true, not in my experience.
camom
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Mr. Twist is angry and bitter on several counts, maybe not first because of homophobia. Jack got "out," had money, position (maybe not so much to us, but it must have appeared so to his dad). He's angry at Jack for thinking he's too "goddamn special," for not helping enough, for just being different. Although Jack must have helped out some, because he mentions going up to the ranch at least a couple of times.
I think Mr. Twist is mostly angry at life. Jack is just one more disappointment. Interesting how he is a bitter man, yet Jack's mom glows with compassion.
camom
camom, it seems we think alike on this subject. I posted similar comments under another topic about a week ago. I too felt Mr. Twist may have harbored resentment towards Jack because he lived a more affluent lifestyle in comparison. This could be a reason behind the "he thought he was too G.D. special ..." remark. I couldn't imagine Jack not offering to help his parents financially. I can imagine Mr. Twist limiting or refusing help from Jack as a result of his own pride and resentment.
The man just exudes venom, doesn't he? I'd bet the main reason Jack came back at all was to see his mom.
camom
I have no doubt. The old man in the story was even worse to Jack. What he did was inexcusable to Jack as a youngster. There are reasons why people behave as they do, and why Jack needed the love of Ennis so badly.
The story of what Jack's dad did to him as a child parallels Ennis' childhood story of the murder in its shock and horror. The only part I didn't agree with was the circumcision aspect. I didn't think it rang true, not in my experience.
camom
I had an absent father growing up, but he wasn't abusive.
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Mr. Twist is angry and bitter on several counts, maybe not first because of homophobia. Jack got "out," had money, position (maybe not so much to us, but it must have appeared so to his dad). He's angry at Jack for thinking he's too "goddamn special," for not helping enough, for just being different. Although Jack must have helped out some, because he mentions going up to the ranch at least a couple of times.
I think Mr. Twist is mostly angry at life. Jack is just one more disappointment. Interesting how he is a bitter man, yet Jack's mom glows with compassion.
camom
camom, it seems we think alike on this subject. I posted similar comments under another topic about a week ago. I too felt Mr. Twist may have harbored resentment towards Jack because he lived a more affluent lifestyle in comparison. This could be a reason behind the "he thought he was too G.D. special ..." remark. I couldn't imagine Jack not offering to help his parents financially. I can imagine Mr. Twist limiting or refusing help from Jack as a result of his own pride and resentment.
The man just exudes venom, doesn't he? I'd bet the main reason Jack came back at all was to see his mom.
camom
I have no doubt. The old man in the story was even worse to Jack. What he did was inexcusable to Jack as a youngster. There are reasons why people behave as they do, and why Jack needed the love of Ennis so badly.
The story of what Jack's dad did to him as a child parallels Ennis' childhood story of the murder in its shock and horror. The only part I didn't agree with was the circumcision aspect. I didn't think it rang true, not in my experience.
camom
I had an absent father growing up, but he wasn't abusive.
I'm confused, Cowboy. What do you mean? I was talking circumcision, not absence (or were you not replying to my post?). Explain it to meeeeeee! ;)
camom
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camom - just replying to all the thoughts in general in dealing with an abusive parent.
In the book Jack says that after that event and knowing he was different, he was never right with his father.
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There is no excuse for what his father did, but the part about Jack knowing he was different, just doesn't quite work for me. Boys that age just wouldn't notice that kind of difference, at least mine didn't. Being emotionally scarred by his father's abuse, that part I think is pretty clear.
camom
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Mr. Twist is angry and bitter on several counts, maybe not first because of homophobia. Jack got "out," had money, position (maybe not so much to us, but it must have appeared so to his dad). He's angry at Jack for thinking he's too "goddamn special," for not helping enough, for just being different. Although Jack must have helped out some, because he mentions going up to the ranch at least a couple of times.
I think Mr. Twist is mostly angry at life. Jack is just one more disappointment. Interesting how he is a bitter man, yet Jack's mom glows with compassion.
camom
camom, it seems we think alike on this subject. I posted similar comments under another topic about a week ago. I too felt Mr. Twist may have harbored resentment towards Jack because he lived a more affluent lifestyle in comparison. This could be a reason behind the "he thought he was too G.D. special ..." remark. I couldn't imagine Jack not offering to help his parents financially. I can imagine Mr. Twist limiting or refusing help from Jack as a result of his own pride and resentment.
The man just exudes venom, doesn't he? I'd bet the main reason Jack came back at all was to see his mom.
camom
I have no doubt. The old man in the story was even worse to Jack. What he did was inexcusable to Jack as a youngster. There are reasons why people behave as they do, and why Jack needed the love of Ennis so badly.
And another reason for the anger of the unlovely, marvelously acted Mr Twist: the theme he harps on all the time is how Jack is going to come up and make the ranch *better* than the ol stud duck has made it -- i.e. Mr Twist is insulted by Jack's plans for coming to live on the ranch.
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The man just exudes venom, doesn't he? I'd bet the main reason Jack came back at all was to see his mom.
camom
... yeah, from my first viewing he stuck out as the embodiment of malice and venom by society against the likes of Ennis and Jack. The other is Aguirre. Venom is the word, and metaphorically they express the hate of society. Implacable, unrelenting hate. Not pretty.
Your other interesting point. I've reread the book several times, and Jack's repeated mention of going to Lighning Flat is always to help his dad on the ranch. Mom never mentioned. But I agree now you point it out--mom was the bright spot against the unrelieved nastiness of ol Mr Twist.
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Mr. Twist is angry and bitter on several counts, maybe not first because of homophobia. Jack got "out," had money, position (maybe not so much to us, but it must have appeared so to his dad). He's angry at Jack for thinking he's too "goddamn special," for not helping enough, for just being different. Although Jack must have helped out some, because he mentions going up to the ranch at least a couple of times.
I think Mr. Twist is mostly angry at life. Jack is just one more disappointment. camom
Maybe someone else has made this point, but an another reason for Mr Twist's anger is seeing right there the guy who was going to help turn the farm around--a project I think Mr T felt insulted him and his ranching.
If Mr T was angry at the implied insult, then he'd be real sore to see Jack's pal who was going to move to the farm right there in his kitchen.
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The man just exudes venom, doesn't he? I'd bet the main reason Jack came back at all was to see his mom.
camom
... yeah, from my first viewing he stuck out as the embodiment of malice and venom by society against the likes of Ennis and Jack. The other is Aguirre. Venom is the word, and metaphorically they express the hate of society. Implacable, unrelenting hate. Not pretty.
Your other interesting point. I've reread the book several times, and Jack's repeated mention of going to Lighning Flat is always to help his dad on the ranch. Mom never mentioned. But I agree now you point it out--mom was the bright spot against the unrelieved nastiness of ol Mr Twist.
That's right! He always says he's going to help his dad through the winter or whatever--and remember in the bar scene with Ennis, how he says, "You can't please my dad nohow"? Seems like maybe he was still trying to please him anyway.
camom
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hi everyone
i'm new to this thread...
loved the movie of course...
it seemed obvious to me that jacks mom knew, and i think she and her husband (mr. twist) could not have helped discussing it or fighting about it, especially since jack told his dad he was leaving his wife to come up with a guy to live...
i also dont seem to think jacks dad was completely hateful... don't get me wrong, he was abusive and all, but i cant imagine jack wanting to come back and live with his parents and work his fathers land if he didn't have SOME kind of relationship with him...
so, i do think both of them knew...
i also think jacks dad's attitude was typical and to be expected, he was hurt... he didn't reject ennis, he could have kicked him out of the house, he let him enter his sons room, he gave him some insight into his sons dreams... i realize his dad was cruel and harsh, but he could have been so much worse...
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I don't know why but I always seem to be the only one sticking up for the Aguirres and John Twists of the world.
John Twist was a rancher. A simple man with a difficult occupation. The story tells us he lived in the middle of nowhere and couldn't get any help on the ranch. He had a son who, like most family ranchers/farmers hoped his son would one day take over the ranch and until then would help out. Jack went rodeoing instead, dashing his father's dreams. Sure he was disappointed and bitter. Here was one man, all by himself, trying to maintain a ranch to make enough money to pay the bills and keep a roof over his and his wife's heads. He wasn't doing to well as the huge growths of weeds around the house displayed.
I still maintain John Twist was more bitter that Jack never kept his promise to bring Ennis or Randall up to the ranch to help out than he was that Jack was gay, although I am sure he wasn't overly excited about that either. I think John Twist would have reconciled himself to Jack's love interest if Jack would have just moved back home and helped out.
So, I don't think we should get down on John Twist. He is just a simple, honest, hard working man trying to make a living who dreamed of his only son working along side of him and taking over one day.
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I don't know why but I always seem to be the only one sticking up for the Aguirres and John Twists of the world.
John Twist was a rancher. A simple man with a difficult occupation. The story tells us he lived in the middle of nowhere and couldn't get any help on the ranch. He had a son who, like most family ranchers/farmers hoped his son would one day take over the ranch and until then would help out. Jack went rodeoing instead, dashing his father's dreams.
So, I don't think we should get down on John Twist. He is just a simple, honest, hard working man trying to make a living who dreamed of his only son working along side of him and taking over one day.
In the film, Jack claims to Ennis that his father threw him out, and there was no pleasin' him.
I wouldn't blame Jack for a second if he never went back there.
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I still maintain John Twist was more bitter that Jack never kept his promise to bring Ennis or Randall up to the ranch to help out than he was that Jack was gay, although I am sure he wasn't overly excited about that either. I think John Twist would have reconciled himself to Jack's love interest if Jack would have just moved back home and helped out.
Hi, Patriot1 !
As usual, you make interesting points. On this one, however, I'm too cynical to agree. Be reconciled with Jack's love interest ? To do that, Mr Twist would have to have so much courage that he could stand up to people like Mr Del Mar who would take a child to see a neighbour rotting in a ditch after his dick had been pulled off. I can't believe Mr Twist would go against his society. Not for his son, anyway.
Stephan
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I don't know why but I always seem to be the only one sticking up for the Aguirres and John Twists of the world.
John Twist was a rancher. A simple man with a difficult occupation. The story tells us he lived in the middle of nowhere and couldn't get any help on the ranch. He had a son who, like most family ranchers/farmers hoped his son would one day take over the ranch and until then would help out. Jack went rodeoing instead, dashing his father's dreams.
So, I don't think we should get down on John Twist. He is just a simple, honest, hard working man trying to make a living who dreamed of his only son working along side of him and taking over one day.
In the film, Jack claims to Ennis that his father threw him out, and there was no pleasin' him.
I wouldn't blame Jack for a second if he never went back there.
No, Jack never said his father threw him out. He said he couldn't please his father so he took to rodeoing. Well, Jack was gay. I am sure he could never please his disappointed father.
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I don't know why but I always seem to be the only one sticking up for the Aguirres and John Twists of the world.
Partriot1, your points are well taken and I can certainly understand from Jack's father point of view. We don't know completely what goes on in the Twist family. What you have described is exactly the expectation - either individual, family or society on Jack or any of us which one must meet. John is definitely bitter but there is one passage in the short story which makes me chilled in the spine.
"Jack was dick-clipped and the old man was not: it bothered the son who had discovered the anatomical disconformity during a hard scene. He had been about three or four, he said, always late getting to the toilet, struggling with buttons, the seat, the height of the thing and often as not left the surroundings sprinkled down. The old man blew up about it and this one time worked into a crazy rage. "Christ, he licked the stuffin out a me, knocked me down on the bathroom floor, whipped me with his belt. I thought he was killin me. Then he says, "You want a know what it's like with piss all over the place? I'll learn you, and he pulls it out and lets go all over me, soaked me, then he throws a towel at me and makes me mop up the floor, take my clothes off and warsh them in the bathtub, warsh out the towel, I'm bawlin and blubberin. But while he was hosin me down I seen he had some extra materal that I was missing. I seen they'd cut me different like you'd crop a ear or scorch a brand. No way to get it right with him after that"
This is only one of the instances. I am not sure how Jack would have wanted to filfulled his father's dream. If I were Jack, I would want to escape this. John may be simple, honest and hard working man - but not a loving father.
For those interesting in continuing the discussion about Jack's father, I recommend you to check out these two topics
The Importance of Jack's Dad (http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=481.0)
Jack's Dad (http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=996.0)
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My mom, thats another story. Dad asked me not to tell her, so I respect his wishes, but somewhere deep down she has to know, but I don't think she wants to hear it. It makes that part of my life tough.
I think it is always the toughest on mothers. They, after all are the nurturers and they want to have grandchildren to nurture. It is particularly difficult when there is only one child in the family and he/she is gay.
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i'm sure he knew it, but he was in denial of believing it. his father didn't liked Jack for one reason, he was gay, adn he can't stand that
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"Jack was dick-clipped and the old man was not: it bothered the son who had discovered the anatomical disconformity during a hard scene. He had been about three or four, he said, always late getting to the toilet, struggling with buttons, the seat, the height of the thing and often as not left the surroundings sprinkled down. The old man blew up about it and this one time worked into a crazy rage. "Christ, he licked the stuffin out a me, knocked me down on the bathroom floor, whipped me with his belt. I thought he was killin me. Then he says, "You want a know what it's like with piss all over the place? I'll learn you, and he pulls it out and lets go all over me, soaked me, then he throws a towel at me and makes me mop up the floor, take my clothes off and warsh them in the bathtub, warsh out the towel, I'm bawlin and blubberin. But while he was hosin me down I seen he had some extra materal that I was missing. I seen they'd cut me different like you'd crop a ear or scorch a brand. No way to get it right with him after that"
This is only one of the instances. I am not sure how Jack would have wanted to filfulled his father's dream. If I were Jack, I would want to escape this. John may be simple, honest and hard working man - but not a loving father.
Yes, I am glad you brought that passage up Ethan.
When I read it I was confused; still am in fact. I wasn't sure what it was that Annie was trying to tell me.
She points out that Jack was circumcised and his father wasn't. What was she trying to tell me? Was Jack gay because he felt less of a man because he was missing something his dad had? I don't know what she was saying. Why was that important?
Was she telling me that Jack's dad was a tough son of a bitch and really had no idea how to raise a child? Well, she succeeded if that was it. But then, parents at that time (in the 1940's) taught their kids differently than they do today. I was taught to swim not by going to the YMCA but by my mother throwing me into the ocean. It was either sink or swim. I can only hope she wouldn't have let me sink but to this day I have no idea what she would have done. I know she would have liked me to sink but would she have let me?
Jack's dad was trying to teach him that pissing all over the place was not acceptable and he better get to the bathroom sooner to do all the things he had to do before he pissed his pants. A compassionate teaching....no, not at all. But, Ennis's father taught him being gay was not acceptable by taking him to a horrific death scene and making him look at it. That also was pretty drastic.
So, by our standards today none of the three parents were very nurturing and didn't train their kids in a way acceptable today.
And, I am not sure why Jack pissing his pants would have made his father hate him. Disgust him sure, but dislike or hate him at 3 or 4?????? Don't know.
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Hi, Patriot1 !
As usual, you make interesting points. On this one, however, I'm too cynical to agree. Be reconciled with Jack's love interest ? To do that, Mr Twist would have to have so much courage that he could stand up to people like Mr Del Mar who would take a child to see a neighbour rotting in a ditch after his dick had been pulled off. I can't believe Mr Twist would go against his society. Not for his son, anyway.
Stephan
Yes but Mr. Twist lived so far out in the middle of nowhere who would know what was going on. Either the story or screenplay tells us is was like 10 miles between neighbors. The movie shows us Ennis driving home from the Twist home on the long lonesome road where you had better not break down because there was NOTHING out there. And the father said he couldn't get any help way out there.
Hell, Jack and Ennis were closer to other shepherds on Brokeback than they would be at the Twist ranch.
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i also dont seem to think jacks dad was completely hateful... don't get me wrong, he was abusive and all, but i cant imagine jack wanting to come back and live with his parents and work his fathers land if he didn't have SOME kind of relationship with him...
so, i do think both of them knew...
i also think jacks dad's attitude was typical and to be expected, he was hurt... he didn't reject ennis, he could have kicked him out of the house, he let him enter his sons room, he gave him some insight into his sons dreams... i realize his dad was cruel and harsh, but he could have been so much worse...
I totally agree with you sweet_man_1. I just do not see this man as this evil monster everyone else is seeing.
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When I read it I was confused; still am in fact. I wasn't sure what it was that Annie was trying to tell me.
She points out that Jack was circumcised and his father wasn't. What was she trying to tell me? Was Jack gay because he felt less of a man because he was missing something his dad had? I don't know what she was saying. Why was that important?
This passage was recalled from Ennis which Jack mentioned to him. For a kid of 3-4 year old to recall such event, it must have been horrifying. I can barely remember anything what I did at that age. Like you, I am not sure what it meant - could well be that Jack felt less of a man.
Was she telling me that Jack's dad was a tough son of a bitch and really had no idea how to raise a child? Well, she succeeded if that was it. But then, parents at that time (in the 1940's) taught their kids differently than they do today. I was taught to swim not by going to the YMCA but by my mother throwing me into the ocean. It was either sink or swim. I can only hope she wouldn't have let me sink but to this day I have no idea what she would have done. I know she would have liked me to sink but would she have let me?
Jack's dad was trying to teach him that pissing all over the place was not acceptable and he better get to the bathroom sooner to do all the things he had to do before he pissed his pants. A compassionate teaching....no, not at all. But, Ennis's father taught him being gay was not acceptable by taking him to a horrific death scene and making him look at it. That also was pretty drastic.
So, by our standards today none of the three parents were very nurturing and didn't train their kids in a way acceptable today.
True. I don't think the passage had anything to do with parenting or whether John had any idea how to raise Jack. I agree that parents at that time raised kids differently but it didn't mean that the ways these parents or John to be exact raised Jack had not impacted him significantly. Ennis did recall what he had seen by his father and subsequent his deniel of who he really was. Kack said "No way to get it right with him after that." My take is parents can raise their kids without love and in Jack's case, it is not only one instance described in the passage for something like this between him and his father.
And, I am not sure why Jack pissing his pants would have made his father hate him. Disgust him sure, but dislike or hate him at 3 or 4?????? Don't know.
I don't think his father hates Jack. He is surely disappointed and bitter. I also agree that Jack's father is not an evil monster. After all, he wants to keep Jack's ashes. All I am saying is that there is a cause and effect for any kind of relationship. It comes from both sides. Since Jack is the father, he bears more responsibilities.
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I don't know why but I always seem to be the only one sticking up for the Aguirres and John Twists of the world.
John Twist was a rancher. A simple man with a difficult occupation. The story tells us he lived in the middle of nowhere and couldn't get any help on the ranch. He had a son who, like most family ranchers/farmers hoped his son would one day take over the ranch and until then would help out. Jack went rodeoing instead, dashing his father's dreams. Sure he was disappointed and bitter. Here was one man, all by himself, trying to maintain a ranch to make enough money to pay the bills and keep a roof over his and his wife's heads. He wasn't doing to well as the huge growths of weeds around the house displayed.
I still maintain John Twist was more bitter that Jack never kept his promise to bring Ennis or Randall up to the ranch to help out than he was that Jack was gay, although I am sure he wasn't overly excited about that either. I think John Twist would have reconciled himself to Jack's love interest if Jack would have just moved back home and helped out.
So, I don't think we should get down on John Twist. He is just a simple, honest, hard working man trying to make a living who dreamed of his only son working along side of him and taking over one day.
So Patriot1, are you always this kind and thoughtful or is this just your internet persona? I sure hope the person I meet someday has a heart like yours.
Yes, John Twist had some reason to be bitter. Running a ranch alone is not an easy task.
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I also agree that Jack's father is not an evil monster. After all, he wants to keep Jack's ashes.
At first I thought it was awful that Jack's father refused to allow his son's ashes be scattered on Brokeback Mountain. But, after a little thought, I softened up and wondered if he was really wanting to have his son close to him because he really missed and loved him but was never able to show that love while Jack was alive.
Just something that crossed my mind.
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At first I thought it was awful that Jack's father refused to allow his son's ashes be scattered on Brokeback Mountain. But, after a little thought, I softened up and wondered if he was really wanting to have his son close to him because he really missed and loved him but was never able to show that love while Jack was alive.
Just something that crossed my mind.
Now that is a very kind and thoughtful something to cross your mind, my_man_jack. I definitely won't throw that idea out the window. :)
Stephan
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I totally agree with you sweet_man_1. I just do not see this man as this evil monster everyone else is seeing.
I agree to. Jack's dad was like my dad, he didn't know how to express any love he may have had for his son. Jack was always saying he and some "guy was gonna come and make the ranch right and I expect his dad was hoping that would happen. After all, he, the dad hadn't done to well by it. In both the story and the movie I got the sense that Jack's dad didn't much care what his son was only that he might help him out. I find it interesting that Jack's mother, a Pentacost, obviously knew and accepted his sexual orientation. In the movie she all but took Ennis by the hand and led him to the shirts. Oh mercy, here I go crying again. .......................PBS strikes again! :'( She was waiting, she knew he'd find the shirts and bring them down. S**t. I can't believe this is happening to me again. Why can't I have an intellegent conversation without falling apart over all this?
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Some very interesting posts here. In reading the story I, like you Patriot 1, wondered what the significance of Jack being circumcised and his dad not was. Annie made quite a point of this and being frugal with her words, there must be some deeper meaning.........maybe, just as was said, that it made Jack feel less of a man (boy)??????
I think that this was a horrible experience for such a young boy and one that would be remembered no matter at what age it occurred.
I think perhaps Jack's dad knew of Jack's sexual preference very early in his life and perhaps that is why he was so nonsupportive. He was ashamed of his son. I think that he was definitely angry that Jack left his family and ranch. He had counted on his help, when Jack got older and it didn't come (at least to his satisfaction). I think this is his primary concern: self-preservation. He would overlook the fact that Jack was gay, if it meant that he had a sets of hands to help him. He would pretend he didn't know. But since he didn't have that two sets of hands, not only is he angry at Jack for leaving but he is angry at him for being gay. He clearly shows his understanding and contempt for Ennis, when he says,"I know where Brokeback Mountain is." As was stated before, this is where he is telling Ennis he knows what their time on Brokeback Mountain meant. This is why he couldn't let the ashes go up there. He didn't approve of its meaning. Additionally, at this time and place as previously stated, parents expected kids to follow in their footsteps and would feel hurt and resentful if they did not. I don't think he was mad that Jack would say that he would make the ranch right. I don't think he was insulted by that. To be insulted would have been a luxury he couldn't afford. He was simply angry that it never came to pass and the ranch continued to be his sole responsibility I think Jack continues to come back to help through many winters for his mom, who obviously loves him.
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Some very interesting posts here. In reading the story I, like you Patriot 1, wondered what the significance of Jack being circumcised and his dad not was. Annie made quite a point of this and being frugal with her words, there must be some deeper meaning.........maybe, just as was said, that it made Jack feel less of a man (boy)??????
I think that this was a horrible experience for such a young boy and one that would be remembered no matter at what age it occurred.
I think perhaps Jack's dad knew of Jack's sexual preference very early in his life and perhaps that is why he was so nonsupportive. He was ashamed of his son. I think that he was definitely angry that Jack left his family and ranch. He had counted on his help, when Jack got older and it didn't come (at least to his satisfaction). I think this is his primary concern: self-preservation. He would overlook the fact that Jack was gay, if it meant that he had a sets of hands to help him. He would pretend he didn't know. But since he didn't have that two sets of hands, not only is he angry at Jack for leaving but he is angry at him for being gay. He clearly shows his understanding and contempt for Ennis, when he says,"I know where Brokeback Mountain is." As was stated before, this is where he is telling Ennis he knows what their time on Brokeback Mountain meant. This is why he couldn't let the ashes go up there. He didn't approve of its meaning. Additionally, at this time and place as previously stated, parents expected kids to follow in their footsteps and would feel hurt and resentful if they did not. I don't think he was mad that Jack would say that he would make the ranch right. I don't think he was insulted by that. To be insulted would have been a luxury he couldn't afford. He was simply angry that it never came to pass and the ranch continued to be his sole responsibility I think Jack continues to come back to help through many winters for his mom, who obviously loves him.
Excellent observation here. Old John could have cared less if Jack was seeing a Buffalo as long as he was trying to help the ranch.
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It just crossed through my mind that maybe he was not that bad at all, i mean he never seemed kind of understanding with jack idea of the friend he always wished to brought inn maybe he thought that if jack was going to do something like that it was better to do it in a place he can be there and somehow protect him. i remember that Jack never liked to help his dad then why telling him to live there? could it be that his dad may have influenced that idea?
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Actually something has occurred to me. I don't ever remember Jack telling Ennis he wanted to set up shop at his dad's place????
Am I right? I don't think Jack's dad was any gem. He acts pretty contemptuous to Ennis. But as I said before I think he would have liked two men there to help out. Maybe his contempt for Ennis was not only his sexual persuasion, but also his anger that his help never materialized????? Maybe Jack thought of setting up shop at his parent's as a matter of economics and convenience, and the privacy it would have provided. I also think Jack would have wanted to look out for his mom. -Nancy
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Actually something has occurred to me. I don't ever remember Jack telling Ennis he wanted to set up shop at his dad's place????
Am I right? I don't think Jack's dad was any gem. He acts pretty contemptuous to Ennis. But as I said before I think he would have liked two men there to help out. Maybe his contempt for Ennis was not only his sexual persuasion, but also his anger that his help never materialized????? Maybe Jack thought of setting up shop at his parent's as a matter of economics and convenience, and the privacy it would have provided. I also think Jack would have wanted to look out for his mom. -Nancy
You are right, Jack never told to Ennis that he was looking for his parent's ranch for their possible life together.
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he didn't told Ennis but on his what his dad told ennis it was kind of evident :S
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Maybe his contempt for Ennis was not only his sexual persuasion, but also his anger that his help never materialized?????
yes...also the anger of having his son die full stop..people deal with death in many different ways.
Jack wanting to look out for his mum is a very sweet idea...but like you and chameau said, Jack never told Ennis about moving to his dad's place.
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Did Jack's dad know he was gay? He's obviously furious with Jack but he's been furious with him since he was a little boy (bathroom scene). He sounds like he's mad because Jack has repeatedly promised to help him with the ranch and never did. This makes a tentative case for Jack having a violent death and his dad finding out that way...or maybe not?
Bathroom scene?
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I assume that Jack's dad knows Jack is gay. Why else would he repeatedly state that he was leaving Lureen and coming up with other men to work his ranch? I believe he even says that he is going to build a separate dwelling for them.
The bathroom scene is from the story. Jack is 4 years old and apparently misses the toilet. His dad urinates all over him and the room and makes Jack clean it up. In the process Jack realizes he does not look like his dad. His dad is circumcised and he is not. I do not remember all the details about the manner in which he had to clean the bathroom, but all in all it was cruel and traumatic to Jack.
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I assume that Jack's dad knows Jack is gay. Why else would he repeatedly state that he was leaving Lureen and coming up with other men to work his ranch? I believe he even says that he is going to build a separate dwelling for them.
The bathroom scene is from the story. Jack is 4 years old and apparently misses the toilet. His dad urinates all over him and the room and makes Jack clean it up. In the process Jack realizes he does not look like his dad. His dad is circumcised and he is not. I do not remember all the details about the manner in which he had to clean the bathroom, but all in all it was cruel and traumatic to Jack.
Yes John Twist mentioned Jack was to build log cabin on the ranch.
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I assume that Jack's dad knows Jack is gay. Why else would he repeatedly state that he was leaving Lureen and coming up with other men to work his ranch? I believe he even says that he is going to build a separate dwelling for them.
The bathroom scene is from the story. Jack is 4 years old and apparently misses the toilet. His dad urinates all over him and the room and makes Jack clean it up. In the process Jack realizes he does not look like his dad. His dad is circumcised and he is not. I do not remember all the details about the manner in which he had to clean the bathroom, but all in all it was cruel and traumatic to Jack.
Oh right. I remember that scene now. Thank you.