Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: Patriot1 on Mar 23, 2006, 03:48 PM
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I am going to use only one gender here but this goes for everyone, just think, opposite gender.
If your husband is having sex with another man, can you have enjoyable sex with your husband?
I am sitting here watching the movie again and I am in the middle of Ennis and Alma having sex immediately before the divorce scene. She seems to be enjoying it with him until she suggests using protection because they are behind in the bills.
I don't know, but I would imagine if I had a lover and he was sleeping with a woman I don't see me wanting to have sex with him. Not that sleeping with a woman is bad or disgusting or anything. I would just think, well, I don't satisfy you and you have to go looking for a woman, then go!
The scene doesn't seem realistic to me. Is it?
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I guess it could depend on how much you are completely besotted with your partner. I have known one case when a married man and woman seem to enjoy a marital life (at least according to the husband) even though she knows he is 'in' with another man (the acquaintance claims to be bisexual). Perhaps it is because the wife has fixed rules of precedence (he lives with her) and that he is not to do it too openly (he tries to be descreet about it), that he is not somebody who can really theaten the marriage (the other guy appears to be more on the dependent side of the relationship) and that he be totally honest with her. This is from what he tells me.
God know it can be complicated...
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I am going to use only one gender here but this goes for everyone, just think, opposite gender.
If your husband is having sex with another man, can you have enjoyable sex with your husband?
I am sitting here watching the movie again and I am in the middle of Ennis and Alma having sex immediately before the divorce scene. She seems to be enjoying it with him until she suggests using protection because they are behind in the bills.
I don't know, but I would imagine if I had a lover and he was sleeping with a woman I don't see me wanting to have sex with him. Not that sleeping with a woman is bad or disgusting or anything. I would just think, well, I don't satisfy you and you have to go looking for a woman, then go!
The scene doesn't seem realistic to me. Is it?
Maybe,(and it is just a maybe) she wanted to stop having any sexual contact with him and that was the only way she knew how?The thought of Ennis and Jack together was eating away at her inside,and it came to a head that night in bed and she decided to put a stop to it.Next thing we know is the divorce.
Jennis.x
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In 1963 Wyoming, anywhere for that matter back then, no doubt Alma, like many young women, was still living with the belief that it was her"duty" to have sex with her husband, regardless of how she might feel about him, his "other life", the sex itself, whatever. In the story (not sure if it's in the movie) isn't there some implication that he liked a certain position that she found distasteful and perhaps even reminded her of his affinity for men. Maybe I read too much into it, but I think that was in there somewhere.
Though I agree with jennis, too, that maybe that final sex scene was her way of stopping 'having to' have sex with him, by bringing up a touchy subject such as the bills and implying that he couldn't support them properly.
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Though I agree with jennis, too, that maybe that final sex scene was her way of stopping 'having to' have sex with him, by bringing up a touchy subject such as the bills and implying that he couldn't support them properly.
I don't go for that one. It's obvious (for me) at the beginning of the scene she is enjoying the action then, she asks Ennis to take precautions and he replies:
''If you don't want no more of my kids, I'll be happy to leave you alone''
Which was kind of rude. Just the change on her face at that moment, she was shocked and p*ssed off. For me it looked like more him trying to give her pleasure at the beginning because the way he replied, he was not enjoying making love to his wife.
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In 1963 Wyoming, anywhere for that matter back then, no doubt Alma, like many young women, was still living with the belief that it was her"duty" to have sex with her husband, regardless of how she might feel about him, his "other life", the sex itself, whatever. In the story (not sure if it's in the movie) isn't there some implication that he liked a certain position that she found distasteful and perhaps even reminded her of his affinity for men. Maybe I read too much into it, but I think that was in there somewhere.
Though I agree with jennis, too, that maybe that final sex scene was her way of stopping 'having to' have sex with him, by bringing up a touchy subject such as the bills and implying that he couldn't support them properly.
Yes,you are right.Ennis' did take Alma the same way he took Jack and she hated it.Not saying he flipped he over everytime,i don't know anymore then anyone else,but in the short story she says this.
" Under her breath she said, “I’d have em if you’d support em.” And under that thought,
Anyway, what you like to do don’t make too many babies"
Jennis.x
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I am going to use only one gender here but this goes for everyone, just think, opposite gender.
If your husband is having sex with another man, can you have enjoyable sex with your husband?
I am sitting here watching the movie again and I am in the middle of Ennis and Alma having sex immediately before the divorce scene. She seems to be enjoying it with him until she suggests using protection because they are behind in the bills.
I don't know, but I would imagine if I had a lover and he was sleeping with a woman I don't see me wanting to have sex with him. Not that sleeping with a woman is bad or disgusting or anything. I would just think, well, I don't satisfy you and you have to go looking for a woman, then go!
The scene doesn't seem realistic to me. Is it?
When I was with my ex for about 3 or 4 years I told him one day that I could deal with him having sex with another man but would have a lot of trouble if he ever told me he was with a woman. My rational was that I could deal with another man but didn't have the tools (so to speak) to deal with any attraction he had for a woman. So what does he do the next weekend? He goes rockclimbing in upstate NY and lets a woman we both knew pick him up! Then he comes home and tells me about it. <BBBOY slaps himself upside the head> He never went with another woman but now I'm thinking, what was he trying to tell me? And I stayed with him for almost 20 more years. Not the brightest bulb in the lamp here I guess.
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Just some general comments.
A lot of the posts surprise me because I would have thought it would bother a man far more if one's hubby was seeing a man as opposed to a woman--it sure would with me. A bisexual man needs the sex from a woman. I dont see how this says in any way that you arent satisfying his needs completely wrt male sexuality. But if he's going with other men, then he's clearly not getting something from you that he should be. My first boyfriend had a girlfriend and we were very civil to each other, she didnt bother me at all, nor me her.
There are an estimated 1.5 to 3 million gay/bi men married to women in America, most because they just didnt realize how gay they were when they got married, and many of these women are now seeking counselling since seeing BBM. The help lines are flooded. The way I see it, the smart wives realize they cant do anything about it--they just have to accept it. Preventing their hubbies from doing it with other men is just asking too much of them, and if they are smart, they know it will destroy both their hubby and the relationship and they will most likely lose him. They are learning that they have to be practical about it, and set some rules to go by.
The scene with Ennis and Alma, when he said "I'll be happy to leave you alone", that just made it so obvious to her that she was the second choice, as loud and clear and rude as a slap in the face. That would have infuriated and mortified me if I was her. Now he wasnt even living the charade any longer, it was out in the open (as far as she was concerned, not him) No wonder she divorced him.
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Just some general comments.
A lot of the posts surprise me because I would have thought it would bother a man far more if one's hubby was seeing a man as opposed to a woman--it sure would with me. A bisexual man needs the sex from a woman. I dont see how this says in any way that you arent satisfying his needs completely wrt male sexuality. But if he's going with other men, then he's clearly not getting something from you that he should be. My first boyfriend had a girlfriend and we were very civil to each other, she didnt bother me at all, nor me her.
Not exactly sure about this. Your first comment is certainly plausible from a male/gay perspective. I can imagine some male gay friends prefering that their lovers fool around with a woman rather than a man. But for straight women, I would go by the same argument and say that they would rather have their husbands fool around with other men as opposed to women.
As far as bisexuality is concerned, almost 100% of my bisexual acquaintances (and I do have a few) are married. This should come as no surprise because society ALLOWS such a relationship, and therefore, satisfying this side of the equation is much easier. So in almost every case, my bisexual friends keep the homosexual part of the equation hidden. It is not because they prefer the hetero aspect more. It is a question of societal strictures -- that are hopefully changing.
That said, the posts are no surprise to me.
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Just some general comments.
A lot of the posts surprise me because I would have thought it would bother a man far more if one's hubby was seeing a man as opposed to a woman--it sure would with me. A bisexual man needs the sex from a woman. I dont see how this says in any way that you arent satisfying his needs completely wrt male sexuality. But if he's going with other men, then he's clearly not getting something from you that he should be. My first boyfriend had a girlfriend and we were very civil to each other, she didnt bother me at all, nor me her.
Not exactly sure about this. Your first comment is certainly plausible from a male/gay perspective. I can imagine some male gay friends prefering that their lovers fool around with a woman rather than a man. But for straight women, I would go by the same argument and say that they would rather have their husbands fool around with other men as opposed to women.
As far as bisexuality is concerned, almost 100% of my bisexual acquaintances (and I do have a few) are married. This should come as no surprise because society ALLOWS such a relationship, and therefore, satisfying this side of the equation is much easier. So in almost every case, my bisexual friends keep the homosexual part of the equation hidden. It is not because they prefer the hetero aspect more. It is a question of societal strictures -- that are hopefully changing.
That said, the posts are no surprise to me.
To be honest,if it was me.It would make no difference if it was male or female.If my partner was cheating on me with 'ANYBODY'. He would be out on his ear.I know we are talking Alma here,not me,but just when you said straight women would rather have their partner fool around with a man then a woman.l personally would not be accepting of either.
Hugs
Jennis.x
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To be honest,if it was me.It would make no difference if it was male or female.If my partner was cheating on me with 'ANYBODY'. He would be out on his ear.I know we are talking Alma here,not me,but just when you said straight women would rather have their partner fool around with a man then a woman.l personally would not be accepting of either.
Hugs
Jennis.x
This is perfectly understandable, certainly. I probably feel the same way, although I know I do get more worked up if the other person was another guy.
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To be honest,if it was me.It would make no difference if it was male or female.If my partner was cheating on me with 'ANYBODY'. He would be out on his ear.I know we are talking Alma here,not me,but just when you said straight women would rather have their partner fool around with a man then a woman.l personally would not be accepting of either.
Hugs
Jennis.x
This is perfectly understandable, certainly. I probably feel the same way, although I know I do get more worked up if the other person was another guy.
Yes,i see your point.I guess it would feel worse to some people to have your partner playing away from home with someone the same sex as yourself.For me it would be the same either way.But that's just me. :)My heart rules my head.
Jennis.x
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Sexuality can be so complicated, no? It's quite easy for us to discuss it here with some distance involved, until it gets a bit more personal.
I guess jealousy is the fascinating corollary to it all. I sometimes wonder how it works on the personal level. It can be so 'touch-and-go', shall we say. I suppose it has something to do with what you perceive as threatening to the relationship. And this could be so personal...
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A couple of random thoughts to toss in here:
(1) The particular ("if you don't want no more of my kids") scene is approximately 1975, some eight years after Alma first figured out what was going on with Jack and Ennis. A lot of time has passed and Alma has obviously learned to ignore/deal with/repress/accept/deny what she suspects happens 2-3 times per year on those fishing trips. She didn't leave him. Time has a way of rounding off the sharp edges of things.
(2) Alma may STILL have not wanted to believe it was true. To us, we think that Alma knows and believes 100% of the truth we see once she catches them kissing. But that's not a certainty. Denial is a strong thing! Think about that note tied to the end of Ennis' line. Why did she do this? Why did she do this years after these trips started?? If she did it just to confront him, well, maybe she did but she chickened out. That's possible But rather I think she did it simply to confirm what she suspected might be going on. If she KNEW (and didn't simply "suspect") then why do this little test after it had been going on for years? This MIGHT be a clue that Alma was successfully denying or at least trying hard not to believe the truth all those years.
(3) Plenty of people still have sex with a cheating spouse. It would be tough for many people, but it definitely still happens.
(4) Ennis and Alma were perhaps 30 or so in the scene in question. Though not teenagers, it's still hardly out of the norm for Ennis and Alma to have a strong sex drive. I seem to recall that women 'peak" in their mid-30's. Short of having an affair, this was Alma's option.
(5) We don't know what else took place in all the time gaps of the film. Perhaps this scene is April of 1975, and in November 1974 Ennis came back from the fishing trip and made some sort of comment or did some action that lead Alma to think just maybe the fishing trips were a thing of the past. Maybe Ennis threw out some old equipment, saying he wouldn't need it anymore (in fact because Jack brought equipment along). Or maybe Ennis complained about something related to the trip. Perhaps there was a reason that Alma, at the time of that scene, thought that she had Ennis back 100%.
(6) Finally, as was already pointed out, women in a not-so-long-ago time were raised that sex was something a dutiful wife gave her husband no matter what. And I ain't jokin, to quote Ennis.
Not saying these are without question all in play during our story, but I do think they all have possible, plausible affects which make the ongoing relations between Ennis and Alma believable.
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To be honest,if it was me.It would make no difference if it was male or female.If my partner was cheating on me with 'ANYBODY'. He would be out on his ear.I know we are talking Alma here,not me,but just when you said straight women would rather have their partner fool around with a man then a woman.l personally would not be accepting of either.
Hugs
Jennis.x
This is perfectly understandable, certainly. I probably feel the same way, although I know I do get more worked up if the other person was another guy.
Yes,i see your point.I guess it would feel worse to some people to have your partner playing away from home with someone the same sex as yourself.For me it would be the same either way.But that's just me. :)My heart rules my head.
Jennis.x
Jennis, no on two accounts. No we are not talking about Alma. I just used her as an example in my question. I was talking about real life.
And two, it is not just you who feels this way.
While watching that part of the movie I tried to put myself in her position. There is no way in hell I would commit myself to one person for the rest of my life and allow that person to sleep around with anybody of any gender. That is pure BS. How on earth can someone say to you "I love you" but you don't satisfy my needs so I am going to sleep with someone else? Not to mention the risk of disease. If I were Alma I'm afraid I could not have been laying there enjoying the sex.
Just how liberal are we going to get!!??
So, at least you and I agree Jennis.
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To be honest,if it was me.It would make no difference if it was male or female.If my partner was cheating on me with 'ANYBODY'. He would be out on his ear.I know we are talking Alma here,not me,but just when you said straight women would rather have their partner fool around with a man then a woman.l personally would not be accepting of either.
Hugs
Jennis.x
This is perfectly understandable, certainly. I probably feel the same way, although I know I do get more worked up if the other person was another guy.
Yes,i see your point.I guess it would feel worse to some people to have your partner playing away from home with someone the same sex as yourself.For me it would be the same either way.But that's just me. :)My heart rules my head.
Jennis.x
Jennis, no on two accounts. No we are not talking about Alma. I just used her as an example in my question. I was talking about real life.
And two, it is not just you who feels this way.
While watching that part of the movie I tried to put myself in her position. There is no way in hell I would commit myself to one person for the rest of my life and allow that person to sleep around with anybody of any gender. That is pure BS. How on earth can someone say to you "I love you" but you don't satisfy my needs so I am going to sleep with someone else? Not to mention the risk of disease. If I were Alma I'm afraid I could not have been laying there enjoying the sex.
Just how liberal are we going to get!!??
So, at least you and I agree Jennis.
Yeah absolutely(i was talking about Alma.I know your thread is about real people)I would on no account put up with it.But i do know many women that have and still do.I have often asked them why and they just don't seem to have the strength to get out of a demeaning relationship.Couldn't stand it myself,no matter how much i might love someone.
Jennis.x
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Regarding the v.first post...I talk only for myself...
If my man were to tell me he had had sex with another man or woman I would be pissed of no matter what...(then again...I...erm....have not been v.faithful myself in the past...so maybe I should ask my ex that question)....but even after cheating..sex can just be sex...and you dont need to be in love to "have good sex"...you sure feel guilty afterwards though.
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....but even after cheating..sex can just be sex...and you dont need to be in love to "have good sex"...you sure feel guilty afterwards though.
I agree with this, Frog.
But I won't accept my partner being with anyone else, no matter the sex. Though,.... being a straight female if my husband is cheating me with a guy, it would be worse for me, 'cause I wouldn't know how to compete with a man.
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I would not know how to compete either...it's difficult enough with all the beautiful women around...if we also have to start competing with all the gorgeous men around too...I might consider becoming a benedictine! LOL
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I would not know how to compete either...it's difficult enough with all the beautiful women around...if we also have to start competing with all the gorgeous men around too...I might consider becoming a benedictine! LOL
:D :D :D
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Well if my find out that my girlfriend have something with another woman for sure i'll fell unconfortable the whole idea of thinking in her with another woman for many men is hot but to me would make me feel less man because there's something that i'm not providing to her that she needs to get a woman to fullfill the desire i would go nuts! because it would show me that she never loved me
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Well if my find out that my girlfriend have something with another woman for sure i'll fell unconfortable the whole idea of thinking in her with another woman for many men is hot but to me would make me feel less man because there's something that i'm not providing to her that she needs to get a woman to fullfill the desire i would go nuts! because it would show me that she never loved me
I think that is exactly how I would feel.
She said she loved me, she married me, she took half my property, then she gets sex from someone else?
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Just some general comments.
A lot of the posts surprise me because I would have thought it would bother a man far more if one's hubby was seeing a man as opposed to a woman--it sure would with me. A bisexual man needs the sex from a woman. I dont see how this says in any way that you arent satisfying his needs completely wrt male sexuality. But if he's going with other men, then he's clearly not getting something from you that he should be. My first boyfriend had a girlfriend and we were very civil to each other, she didnt bother me at all, nor me her.
Not exactly sure about this. Your first comment is certainly plausible from a male/gay perspective. I can imagine some male gay friends prefering that their lovers fool around with a woman rather than a man. But for straight women, I would go by the same argument and say that they would rather have their husbands fool around with other men as opposed to women.
As far as bisexuality is concerned, almost 100% of my bisexual acquaintances (and I do have a few) are married. This should come as no surprise because society ALLOWS such a relationship, and therefore, satisfying this side of the equation is much easier. So in almost every case, my bisexual friends keep the homosexual part of the equation hidden. It is not because they prefer the hetero aspect more. It is a question of societal strictures -- that are hopefully changing.
That said, the posts are no surprise to me.
I was referring to men only, thats why I said a man. The first post in this thread was about gay men. Of course a woman would prefer her hubby seeing a man to a woman. It's the same thing, just the reverse. That's why I said these women put up with it, when their hubby sees other men. It's a totally different story if he's seeing another woman.
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It would be interesting to poll the members here of what they think of so-called 'Open' relationships. I do not mean for anyone to pass judgement on this. We limit ourselves to opinions.
Would you not think open realtionships possible? A number of people who do this seem to think so...
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What do you mean by "open relationship" ?
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What do you mean by "open relationship" ?
I think this is widely taken as two people who live together as if married (and of course, have sex), but allow each other to have sex with other people.
In a lot of cases, gay couples who are drifting away from each other seem to take this as a last recourse. In other cases, people seem to get into such a relationship from the beginning.
Not the safest thing, truth to tell.
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What do you mean by "open relationship" ?
I think this is widely taken as two people who live together as if married (and of course, have sex), but allow each other to have sex with other people.
In a lot of cases, gay couples who are drifting away from each other seem to take this as a last recourse. In other cases, people seem to get into such a relationship from the beginning.
Not the safest thing, truth to tell.
What you are describing sounds to me like two roommates who go out and have sex with the world but when they can't find anything sleep with each other. Not for me, thank you very much.
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What you are describing sounds to me like two roommates who go out and have sex with the world but when they can't find anything sleep with each other. Not for me, thank you very much.
Surprisingly, the first instance I recall about this was with a 65 year-old friend of mine. Back in the 50s and 60s, he had a 10 year relationship with his first true boyfriend. But in the late 60s and early 70s, they began to drift apart. In the last year and a half of their relationship in the 70s, they opted for an open relationship. It kept them going for a bit longer, although my friend's partner ineviatbly moved away to San Francisco.
My friend is still alive. His old boyfriend died in the great AIDS epidemic. I would not say that my friend was celibate after they broke up.
The gods sometimes play dice.
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Hello, I thought I might add my own thoughts here, it being only about opinion.
Finding out that a lover was having sex elsewhere has always been unbearable for me. Nothing like it to wipe out any trace of appetite for sex with someone who was "cheating". Recreational sex, though, is another story. in tha case, it's the opposite, sort of. Getting too attached to a "toy boy" also kills the appetite. I'm complicated, I know.
Stephan
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Hello, I thought I might add my own thoughts here, it being only about opinion.
Finding out that a lover was having sex elsewhere has always been unbearable for me. Nothing like it to wipe out any trace of appetite for sex with someone who was "cheating". Recreational sex, though, is another story. in tha case, it's the opposite, sort of. Getting too attached to a "toy boy" also kills the appetite. I'm complicated, I know.
Stephan
You are human, Stephan. And human nature is complicated.
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You are human, Stephan. And human nature is complicated.
Hey, I appreciate your comment, tpe ! ;)
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Hey, I appreciate your comment, tpe ! ;)
I admire your honesty.
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What is a boy toy?
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What is a boy toy?
I think it is a little young thing one keeps on the side when one is not serious and in need of gratification. You don't expect anything deep here... :)
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What is a boy toy?
A "toy boy" : a male friend for those lonely nights... Another expression I've heard is "f**k buddy", but somehow "toy boy" to me expresses zero commitment, unlike f.b.; sometimes zero commitment seems to be what the doctor orders...
Stephan
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What is a boy toy?
A "toy boy" : a male friend for those lonely nights... Another expression I've heard is "f**k buddy", but somehow "toy boy" to me expresses zero commitment, unlike f.b.; sometimes zero commitment seems to be what the doctor orders...
Stephan
You mean a person you have no feelings for and that you just use to relieve yourself?
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You mean a person you have no feelings for and that you just use to relieve yourself?
Oh dear... you put that so succinctly, Patriot1. I guess it's true, if fun is relieving yourself.
**feels remorseful**
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You mean a person you have no feelings for and that you just use to relieve yourself?
Oh dear... you put that so succinctly, Patriot1. I guess it's true, if fun is relieving yourself.
**feels remorseful**
Sounds repugnant to me. Using a human being who has feelings, wants and needs to be loved and appreciated for one's own relief? The thought of it makes me want to vomit.
How is it people can treat another human being like a throw-away toy? You are really pulling my leg, right? I know I am gullible.
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adultery...
there're people who cant stand adultery from their beloved man.
but if it has happened the only thing you should do is to speak with him/her. to get reasons WHY. alcohol, your quarrel, smth else.
And then you'll decide - to go on your relations or not. It depends only
I think Alma made the best choice, even though they haant talked about. She relied on her heart - it never lies.
To hold your beloved man with you if he/she doesnt love you is very stupid and is very painful. The better way is to let him/her go.
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adultery...
there're people who cant stand adultery from their beloved man.
but if it has happened the only thing you should do is to speak with him/her. to get reasons WHY. alcohol, your quarrel, smth else.
And then you'll decide - to go on your relations or not. It depends only
I think Alma made the best choice, even though they haant talked about. She relied on her heart - it never lies.
To hold your beloved man with you if he/she doesnt love you is very stupid and is very painful. The better way is to let him/her go.
I believe you are absolutely correct Damon. If they need to look elsewhere for what they need...let them go...all the way out of your life.
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For me it depends so much on the circumstances.
Some gay couples allow it if sex with the third person occurs only as a threesome, so both are involved together.
Some are the opposite, allow it only if it is never talked about.
Others, only if it is talked about and all the rules are ironed out.
I've seen all of these situations in my friends.
Myself, I am open to any arrangement above.
I have read a poll on open realationships in a book, dont ask me which one, I picked it off a library shelf years ago. I think it was of America, I dont remember. It said that something like 90% or more of gay male couples had open relationships after a few years. They start closed, then when the romance dies down, they become open, and the relationships are just as stable as closed ones.
Personally, I feel open relationships can, in many cases, be far more stable than closed ones--it depends on the individuals involved. Some can do it, some cant, some need it, some dont.
It also discussed lesbians. I dont remember the figure that preferred open relationships, but it was a majority--really surprised me.
With all I've seen and heard from all my gay friends over the past decades, I have absolutely no problem believing the results of this poll, at least for a big very gay and very liberal city--where I live, maybe not for heartland America. I am a bit surprised by so many negative reactions to open relationships here.
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The only thing i AM against, is people telling other people what is best for them, what is more healthy or moral. Whether open or closed relationships are best for you depends solely on who you and your partner are.
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I am beginning to wonder what "I love you" really means.
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I am beginning to wonder what "I love you" really means.
Well Patriot, to my partner and me it really means "I love you to the exclusion of all others".
For what it's worth, nearly all of the seriously committed gay and lesbian couples I know are in non-open relationships. My sample is fairly small, however, and none of them are under the age of 30. I'm in Milwaukee, and while I don't frequent the clubs or live in the gayest part of town, on the other hand it's not exactly rural.
I do believe that for *some* people an open relationship really can work. But most of the time I've seen it tried, the level of desire for "openness" isn't the same for bother partners and one or the other gets hurt.
Just my own anecdotal experience, for what it's worth
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I am beginning to wonder what "I love you" really means.
Well Patriot, to my partner and me it really means "I love you to the exclusion of all others".
For what it's worth, nearly all of the seriously committed gay and lesbian couples I know are in non-open relationships. My sample is fairly small, however, and none of them are under the age of 30. I'm in Milwaukee, and while I don't frequent the clubs or live in the gayest part of town, on the other hand it's not exactly rural.
I do believe that for *some* people an open relationship really can work. But most of the time I've seen it tried, the level of desire for "openness" isn't the same for bother partners and one or the other gets hurt.
Just my own anecdotal experience, for what it's worth
I don't dare say any more because what I'd have to say wouldn't be diplomatic.
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I think Alma did not want to accept that Ennis was having an intimate relationship with another man at first. Then as time passed I think she began to "take" responsibility for Ennis' sexuality....thinking it was her fault...she could have had thoughts like "if I were a better wife, then Ennis would not need Jack." Or something along those lines. Then she began to despise the sex she had with Ennis because (I believe) she finally decided she could no longer blame herself for Ennis' affair.
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I think Alma did not want to accept that Ennis was having an intimate relationship with another man at first. Then as time passed I think she began to "take" responsibility for Ennis' sexuality....thinking it was her fault...she could have had thoughts like "if I were a better wife, then Ennis would not need Jack." Or something along those lines. Then she began to despise the sex she had with Ennis because (I believe) she finally decided she could no longer blame herself for Ennis' affair.
You are probably right. I know that if I had a mate and he went out to have sex with a woman I would feel inadequate. He would have to go but I would feel inadequate.
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You mean a person you have no feelings for and that you just use to relieve yourself?
Oh dear... you put that so succinctly, Patriot1. I guess it's true, if fun is relieving yourself.
**feels remorseful**
Sounds repugnant to me. Using a human being who has feelings, wants and needs to be loved and appreciated for one's own relief? The thought of it makes me want to vomit.
How is it people can treat another human being like a throw-away toy?
Hmmm, not quite what you imagine there, Patriot1. I wasn't referring to rape or any form of coercion. Mutual consent without claims of possession, or continuity either. Recreation. No throw-away toy, or no more throw-away than any other friend with whom there isn't any sex. Personally, I go all impotent if a person isn't a friend.
Stephan
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I have read a poll on open realationships in a book, dont ask me which one, I picked it off a library shelf years ago. I think it was of America, I dont remember. It said that something like 90% or more of gay male couples had open relationships after a few years. They start closed, then when the romance dies down, they become open, and the relationships are just as stable as closed ones.
Personally, I feel open relationships can, in many cases, be far more stable than closed ones--it depends on the individuals involved. Some can do it, some cant, some need it, some dont.
It also discussed lesbians. I dont remember the figure that preferred open relationships, but it was a majority--really surprised me.
With all I've seen and heard from all my gay friends over the past decades, I have absolutely no problem believing the results of this poll, at least for a big very gay and very liberal city--where I live, maybe not for heartland America. I am a bit surprised by so many negative reactions to open relationships here.
Thank you Troy.
Chicago is not exactly the most liberal city on the planet (let alone the USA), but I agree with your comments that it seems to be much in practice. As I mentioned in an earlier post, it is not a new phenomenon, as it has been practiced since at least the 1950s. I will not be surprised if it is older.
I certainly do not want to pass judgement on this. For me, sexuality in real life tends to be richer and more surprising than fiction. You can think that aspects of it are good or bad, disgusting or interesting. But there is no question that a dispassionate observer appreciates these for the insights they give into human nature.
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I am beginning to wonder what "I love you" really means.
Patriot1, I think it can mean many things. :)
Peace.
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I am beginning to wonder what "I love you" really means.
It can mean many things, like tpe says
...but to me there is a difference between "I'm in love with you" and "I love you"...I've said "I love you" to my friends and family, and have never said "I'm in love with you" yet...
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I am beginning to wonder what "I love you" really means.
It can mean many things, like tpe says
...but to me there is a difference between "I'm in love with you" and "I love you"...I've said "I love you" to my friends and family, and have never said "I'm in love with you" yet...
I agree froggy. But most people in love just say, "I love you."
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I agree froggy. But most people in love just say, "I love you."
I wouldn't...I would say "Je t'aime"
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I wouldn't...I would say "Je t'aime"
J'adore.
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I wouldn't...I would say "Je t'aime"
J'adore.
Translated to English don't they mean "I love you"?
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Translated to English don't they mean "I love you"?
Yes it does.
I'll try and explain myself ...
It does mean the same but because French is my mother tongue it is a lot more meaningful...I love you vs Je t'aime? ...well it just isn't the same...
I live abroad (as in not in France)...I do not get to use my mother tongue on a daily basis. (I know I teach French to kids, its not the same French!)
Anyway...some things are a lot more precious...People usually have things they tell their loved ones...little words, nicknames, private things, private jokes even.
To me, being able to say "I love you" in French...well it's almost sacred...I love you..I say it every day to my laptop when it's working! LOL!
Je t'aime...that's special...private...beautiful
It is very difficult to explain...that's just how it is...if you don't understand, don't worry. Just know that to me, saying "Je t'aime" means a lot.
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It is very difficult to explain...that's just how it is...if you don't understand, don't worry. Just know that to me, saying "Je t'aime" means a lot.
No, I do understand. That is the problem with English. It has 3 words that sound alike [to, too, two] but mean different things, yet, it doesn't have words that mean basically the same but where one is very special.
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So special in italian too, my friends " Ti amo" :D
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So special in italian too, my friends " Ti amo" :D
So ooo<OT> but my 4 year old niece ..who's bilingual French/Italian (but who learns English too) wanted to tell her dad she loved him...and ended saying in french "Papa, je te veux bien!"..she realised she was not saying it properly , so she turned around and asked me..."Auntie...how do you say "I LOVE YOU" in French?"
nb: she said "I love you" in English...not "Je t'aime" LOL!
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So ooo<OT> but my 4 year old niece ..who's bilingual French/Italian (but who learns English too) wanted to tell her dad she loved him...and ended saying in french "Papa, je te veux bien!"..she realised she was not saying it properly , so she turned around and asked me..."Auntie...how do you say "I LOVE YOU" in French?"
nb: she said "I love you" in English...not "Je t'aime" LOL!
LOL! Someone has been watching too many American movies. LOL!! "I love you" the universal language.
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LOL! Someone has been watching too many American movies. LOL!! "I love you" the universal language.
<OT>
no no no..it's because I only speak English to her...she is learning English and believes that its my language..so she asks for me to speak english ..
whenever she can, she uses English to answer back.
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(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe359%2FPatriotOne%2FOffTopic113.gif&hash=844598338f732a85175968d8221e334b10343fe7)
no no no..it's because I only speak English to her...she is learning English and believes that its my language..so she asks for me to speak english ..
whenever she can, she uses English to answer back.
Oh! I see. Sometimes takes this old brain a while to kick in. LOL
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Commenting on open relationships, yes, they can work, as long as both partners are happy with the terms they negotiate. Happy is the operative word. I know several long-term non-monogamous gay couples who are happy as clams.
I was IN a non-monogamous relationship for 3 years. My partner at the time enjoyed recreational sex and absolutely could indulge that while remaining emotionally faithful to me. Our 2 rules were that he only did this when I was out of town (which was often, on business), and that unprotected "adventures" were completely out of the question.
Had he ever been deceitful or dishonest about the arrangement, I'd have brained him. The freedom he had made it unnecessary for him to lie, and we loved each other dearly. It worked for us - all couples are different.
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Translated to English don't they mean "I love you"?
Yes it does.
I'll try and explain myself ...
It does mean the same but because French is my mother tongue it is a lot more meaningful...I love you vs Je t'aime? ...well it just isn't the same...
I live abroad (as in not in France)...I do not get to use my mother tongue on a daily basis. (I know I teach French to kids, its not the same French!)
Anyway...some things are a lot more precious...People usually have things they tell their loved ones...little words, nicknames, private things, private jokes even.
To me, being able to say "I love you" in French...well it's almost sacred...I love you..I say it every day to my laptop when it's working! LOL!
Je t'aime...that's special...private...beautiful
It is very difficult to explain...that's just how it is...if you don't understand, don't worry. Just know that to me, saying "Je t'aime" means a lot.
Thats just because French is associated in your brain with all your deepest emotions as they first occurred when you were learning French and also because you used French to express those emotions.
But I think French in itself also is far more romantic sounding than English. Listen to the same love song in French and English-- a huge difference in how romantic they sound. You can say practically anything in good French and it sounds like you're saying Je t'aime. I loved Celine Dion in French, cant stand her since she went English, sounds like crap.
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Translated to English don't they mean "I love you"?
Yes it does.
I'll try and explain myself ...
It does mean the same but because French is my mother tongue it is a lot more meaningful...I love you vs Je t'aime? ...well it just isn't the same...
I live abroad (as in not in France)...I do not get to use my mother tongue on a daily basis. (I know I teach French to kids, its not the same French!)
Anyway...some things are a lot more precious...People usually have things they tell their loved ones...little words, nicknames, private things, private jokes even.
To me, being able to say "I love you" in French...well it's almost sacred...I love you..I say it every day to my laptop when it's working! LOL!
Je t'aime...that's special...private...beautiful
It is very difficult to explain...that's just how it is...if you don't understand, don't worry. Just know that to me, saying "Je t'aime" means a lot.
Thats just because French is associated in your brain with all your deepest emotions as they first occurred when you were learning French and also because you used French to express those emotions.
But I think French in itself also is far more romantic sounding than English. Listen to the same love song in French and English-- a huge difference in how romantic they sound. You can say practically anything in good French and it sounds like you're saying Je t'aime. I loved Celine Dion in French, cant stand her since she went English, sounds like crap.
My bad! I helped get my thread... (https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe359%2FPatriotOne%2FOffTopic113.gif&hash=844598338f732a85175968d8221e334b10343fe7)
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As previously stated by others, I think Alma was in denial. Maybe she was trying to convince herself that the affair was not true, that she had not seen what she had seen, that Ennis really still loved her or that he just didn't love Jack that much. The fact that they still had a sexual relationship could have confirmed any of these ideas in her own mind. When Ennis finally slaps her in the face with his lack of need for sex from her anymore, she can deny it no longer. That is when she files for divorce.
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Jerbear, did you have unprotected sex with him after he was out and about with other men??
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Finding out that a lover was having sex elsewhere has always been unbearable for me. Nothing like it to wipe out any trace of appetite for sex with someone who was "cheating".
totally agreed, Stephen. Being cheated on is as devastating as a catastrophic earthquake on a building. Demotition is the only remedy, IMO.
Recreational sex, though, is another story. in tha case, it's the opposite, sort of. Getting too attached to a "toy boy" also kills the appetite. I'm complicated, I know.
I don't know what "recreational sex" is. Cannot have sex without being attached. Very. I'm old fashioned, I know..... ;D
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Jerbear, did you have unprotected sex with him after he was out and about with other men??
Yes, I did. Unprotected sex was something special reserved just for us, and I never worried that he would do it with one of his "play partners". The day we negotiated this, I told him flat out that I was literally entrusting him with my life - the look I got back reassured me that I would never hafta worry about the agreement being violated. He was young and attractive and I loved him enuff not to want to imprison him.
I would definitely not recommend this approach to anybody else. It just happened to work for me and my partner in this particular relationship. This is not a pattern for me. To other forum members, I would say PLAY SAFE ONLY.
JB ;)
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Jerbear, did you have unprotected sex with him after he was out and about with other men??
Yes, I did. Unprotected sex was something special reserved just for us, and I never worried that he would do it with one of his "play partners". The day we negotiated this, I told him flat out that I was literally entrusting him with my life - the look I got back reassured me that I would never hafta worry about the agreement being violated. He was young and attractive and I loved him enuff not to want to imprison him.
I would definitely not recommend this approach to anybody else. It just happened to work for me and my partner in this particular relationship. This is not a pattern for me. To other forum members, I would say PLAY SAFE ONLY.
JB ;)
It is certainly a case by case basis. Thanks for sharing, JerBear418720.