Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: bretski40 on Jan 03, 2006, 03:53 PM
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did you think ennis was losing his mind slightly. he kept asking about troy, alma jr's previous boyfriend even though she was talking about kurt her current boyfriend. a sweet yet sad moment. your thoughts?
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did you think ennis was losing his mind slightly. he kept asking about troy, alma jr's previous boyfriend even though she was talking about kurt her current boyfriend. a sweet yet sad moment. your thoughts?
I think it indicates that he was very much living in his own world at that point. His world has compressed to that small sparsely furnished trailer ... and the memories of the power of Brokeback mountain that has been physically reduced to two shirts on a wire hanger.
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Ennis's comment about Troy only reiterates his distance to his daughter's life and perhaps having withdrawn to a life of work, drinking and reminiscing of Jack. His decision to attend Alma Jr.'s wedding gives some hope that maybe he can begin to turn the corner and find a way forward beyond BBM. Ledger's performance is nothing short of phenomenal (and I use that word carefully and sparingly).
stationbbm
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I agee with the previous two posts. This scene shows how Ennis really lives in his own world. Troy was a history - two years ago.
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I think this scene is perfectly played. I feel that Ennis just didnt pay that much attention to his daughter, not thro lack of love but because he didnt know how to.
What this scene shows is a change in Ennis' character, it's almost the moral of the story.
Previously, Ennis' relationship with Jack, paralelled that of his relationship with his eldest daughter: Both Jack and Alma had requested Ennis to change his way of life for them, both had been turned down (trying to hide the hurt, but it's obvious to the viewer at least). When Alma Jnr asks her Dad to come to her wedding, he says he cant because of work but then he remembers that he refused Jack more time because of work once before, the price he paid for this was that he would never see Jack again. This makes him realise his priorities and that his job isnt as important as giving time to the people he loves. He makes the connection with his daughter that she's always yearned for, it's so touching.
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I think this scene is perfectly played. I feel that Ennis just didnt pay that much attention to his daughter, not thro lack of love but because he didnt know how to.
What this scene shows is a change in Ennis' character, it's almost the moral of the story.
Previously, Ennis' relationship with Jack, paralelled that of his relationship with his eldest daughter: Both Jack and Alma had requested Ennis to change his way of life for them, both had been turned down (trying to hide the hurt, but it's obvious to the viewer at least). When Alma Jnr asks her Dad to come to her wedding, he says he cant because of work but then he remembers that he refused Jack more time because of work once before, the price he paid for this was that he would never see Jack again. This makes him realise his priorities and that his job isnt as important as giving time to the people he loves. He makes the connection with his daughter that she's always yearned for, it's so touching.
daveya26, your explanation is wonderful. I enjoy reading it very much. Thank you for offering your thoughts.
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And I have to say thanks to you for creating this forum! Ive been wanting to chat about this movie all week but havent had a chance.
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When Alma Jnr asks her Dad to come to her wedding, he says he cant because of work but then he remembers that he refused Jack more time because of work once before, the price he paid for this was that he would never see Jack again. This makes him realise his priorities and that his job isnt as important as giving time to the people he loves. He makes the connection with his daughter that she's always yearned for, it's so touching.
I also totally agree with your explanation. He is determined not to make the same mistake. But why does he say, 'Jack, I swear.' ? Is he swearing not to make the mistake again, or to always remember him? What do you think he means?
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Hi Fleur
I think its a little ambiguous, but many people are taking it to mean Ennis' way of saying 'Jack, I love you', in the book it says that Jack never asked him to swear anything and that Ennis wasnt the type to swear.
You could also be right though, Ennis is swearing to make his life better now (and he started with his daughter).
Sorry, this is short (Im ironing at the moment) there's a much better explanation of this somewhere else on the board...
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I also totally agree with your explanation. He is determined not to make the same mistake. But why does he say, 'Jack, I swear.' ? Is he swearing not to make the mistake again, or to always remember him? What do you think he means?
Fleur, below is the topic for the line - "Jack, I swear..." It may help answer your questions - it is nteresting and feel free to post your take on this.
http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=185.0
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did you think ennis was losing his mind slightly. he kept asking about troy, alma jr's previous boyfriend even though she was talking about kurt her current boyfriend. a sweet yet sad moment. your thoughts?
That scene takes place no more than two years after Ennis' visit to Jack's parents. I can offer a little of my perspective here. That "what happened to Troy" and "Does Troy still play baseball" (my favorite) reminded me of how sometimes parents lose touch with their kids. But what you have to remember is that Ennis is grieving. My own long-term (24 years) partner passed away two years ago. It's only now that I've come out of my daze of grief. When I refer to things likes "last Christmas", or "last year", it's really two years ago I'm referring to. Time spent in grief is difficult (at best) and meaningless. Things that happened during that time I have trouble recalling because I was in a state of healing and new memories didn't "stick" too well. It could very well be that Ennis just can't remember Alma Jr. telling him about her new boyfriend because he was too wrapped up in his own head.
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This scene doesn't occur in the book, rather Ennis contemplates moving in with his already married daughter as the story closes, or begins actually; the same place... So I would think that the movie ends before the book and if one follows this train of thought, then: One, Ennis is still in love with Jack and still mourning his loss, dreaming of him and keeping the shirts close at hand. Two, Alma Jr. did marry Kurt with Ennis blessings. Three, Ennis' swear to Jack was not to open up himself to a relationship with anyone else.
We are all so romantically inclined to feel for the Jake and Heath embodiments of Jack and Ennis that we forget that they were really not the beautiful men we have come to know so well on the screen. They were paunchy, scrawny, unglamorous, bucked toothed dirty cowpokes and probably not anybodies first pick in their forties. They had for eachother 'A love that will never grow old'
Jim
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Interesting that Ennis uses the line "You're 19, you can do want you want to." The echo of 1963 in a different way.
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Yeah.. it makes me sad ...
She 19...is going to marry kurt..
He 19... met Jack and got all confused and ... oh.. he did marry Alma...
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What really hit me in the final scene is when Ennis says "You don't need nothing if you don't have nothing" (Alma Jr says "Daddy you need some furniture...") Ennis' response shows his state of mind...
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did you think ennis was losing his mind slightly. he kept asking about troy, alma jr's previous boyfriend even though she was talking about kurt her current boyfriend. a sweet yet sad moment. your thoughts?
That scene takes place no more than two years after Ennis' visit to Jack's parents. I can offer a little of my perspective here. That "what happened to Troy" and "Does Troy still play baseball" (my favorite) reminded me of how sometimes parents lose touch with their kids. But what you have to remember is that Ennis is grieving. My own long-term (24 years) partner passed away two years ago. It's only now that I've come out of my daze of grief. When I refer to things likes "last Christmas", or "last year", it's really two years ago I'm referring to. Time spent in grief is difficult (at best) and meaningless. Things that happened during that time I have trouble recalling because I was in a state of healing and new memories didn't "stick" too well. It could very well be that Ennis just can't remember Alma Jr. telling him about her new boyfriend because he was too wrapped up in his own head.
You are so right about the grieving process. Time for you stands still, but the rest of the world keeps on going. Ennis very probably didn't even realize that much time had passed.
I'm very sorry about your partner. :'(
camom
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In a review David Ortmann writes:
I imagine Ennis' daughter, someday after her father's death, opening his closet and finding the two blood-encrusted shirts entwined together beside a poftcard of Brokeback Mountain.
In that moment she will see the part of her father's story kept fom her...the part that explains the deep loneliness that she perceived in him, so similar to the cavern of emotion that fills us (the viewers), as the credits to this rilm roll in theaters across the nation, reminging us that telling our stories is an integral part of life and crucial to any form of attachment.
All I thought was WOW
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I think this scene is perfectly played. I feel that Ennis just didnt pay that much attention to his daughter, not thro lack of love but because he didnt know how to.
What this scene shows is a change in Ennis' character, it's almost the moral of the story.
Previously, Ennis' relationship with Jack, paralellled that of his relationship with his eldest daughter: Both Jack and Alma had requested Ennis to change his way of life for them, both had been turned down (trying to hide the hurt, but it's obvious to the viewer at least). When Alma Jnr asks her Dad to come to her wedding, he says he cant because of work but then he remembers that he refused Jack more time because of work once before, the price he paid for this was that he would never see Jack again. This makes him realise his priorities and that his job isnt as important as giving time to the people he loves. He makes the connection with his daughter that she's always yearned for, it's so touching.
I agree with daveya26, in certain aspects, his relationship with his eldest daughter paralleled that which he had with Jack. An important scene which illustrates this 'parallel' is the following:
Iin the battered pickup truck with Alma Jr., driving her home from the outing that they had had along with Cassie...Alma asks Ennis if she could move in with him. (She makes up a pretty lame story about mom Alma and Monroe being awful strict on her...but look closely at her eyes...they reveal to us that she is telling a 'white lie'...)...'that' is not the real reason....she suspects...she feels that something is wrong...she intuitively senses Ennis pain and inner turmoil...she knows...(maybe not 'everything'...but, at least 'something'...) And it is her own small way, (a way of yet still a child)... of offering her father Ennis some help...
She asks Ennis if she can move in with him. Ennis refuses...
Quickly...almost too quickly...(feeling embarassed?) she says: "That's all right... I understand..."
Jack also asked Ennis to live together. But Ennis, absolutely frightened to the core of Jack's proposal, refuses him too.
So...we see: in that last scene in his empty, lonely trailer, Ennis ends up with two pieces of garments belonging to two of the people he loves the most... Jacks shirt from the mountain...and Alma Jr.'s sweater which she forgets and leaves behind when she drives off...
From Alma Jr. and Jack...the two people on this earth whom he holds/held closest to his heart...
With the one, he realises that he has made a terrible, terrible, and ultimately fatal mistake. But, with the other (which signifies "Hope"): he finally chooses to change...turn a new leaf...make a conscious effort...however late it might be...to open up this tiny and very small closed world of his, and to accept the hand that is reaching out to him, by that other human being that loves him dearly...
"I reckon they can find themselves a new cowboy...My little girl...is gettin' married." he has just said... A real effort by Ennis to change. Remember how he always refused Jack in the past? "I'm sorry Jack...I got the girls this weekend..." ... "I'm sorry Jack, I can't get the time off..." ... "I'm sorry Jack...it ain't gonna be that way..." ... "I'm sorry Jack, I'm not movin' to Texas..." ...
Clearly, Jack refuses to make the same mistake with Alma Jr. that he made with Jack...
So, in a purposeful manner showing us his deliberation to 'move forward' and not to repeat past mistakes...he lovingly folds Alma's sweater and steadfastly puts it away in the closet... (She will be back...I will see her again...)
But...when the closet door opens...we sadly see: Jacks shirt reverently hanging there, on the inside-back of the door, in rememberance of love lost...and past mistakes made...
This time, with Ennis' own white shirt now on the 'outside', and Jacks blue denim one tucked away on the 'inside'...as if Ennis is now trying to wrap his arms around Jack...feel close to him...keep him warm...comfort him...
In exactly the same gentle and loving way that Jack had wrapped his arms around Ennis, so many a time in the past...
Jack had kept his shirt wrapped around Ennis' for twenty odd years...secretly tucked away in his closet...a symbol of the deep and eternal love he held for Ennis...a small and extremely personal way of showing how he had always wanted to 'protect' Ennis... (Only the two of them, fully realizing and understanding the meaning of two innocent shirts hanging together on the same clothes hanger... Can you imagine how lonely it must have been for Jack to have kept this secret for so long??? Twenty years, and not a word of it to nobody... Not even Ennis knew of this...until Jack was gone... :'()
And Ennis, now that Jack is gone, switches the two shirts around, still keeping them on one clothes hanger, and hangs them in his own closet...secretly....probably not mentioning them to anyone...not revealing to a soul, what they mean to him...
Just as Jack did...all those years...
"Jack, I swear..." (that if you were still here, I'd do it differently...) (?)
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Of course I agree with first post about Ennis closure to his world..
just little "professional" comment... depression can give some attention and memory difficulty and disinterestedness.... I think that Ennis is very depressed in this scene. :- :-
coguaro
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Agree with Coguaro, When my mother passed away it took almost three years to my dad to realized she was death and he was so depressed he used to come and say that my mom would be late for dinner or that she was on a trip, it was so painful for him and for us.
when i saw Ennis i realized that he was like my dad lost in depression .....
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So...we see: in that last scene in his empty, lonely trailer, Ennis ends up with two pieces of garments belonging to two of the people he loves the most... Jacks shirt from the mountain...and Alma Jr.'s sweater which she forgets and leaves behind when she drives off...
From Alma Jr. and Jack...the two people on this earth whom he holds/held closest to his heart...
This scene really gets to me too. The way he so carefully folds his daughter's sweater. It's like all this guy has are pieces of clothing to hold on to.
Clearly, Jack refuses to make the same mistake with Alma Jr. that he made with Jack...
So, in a purposeful manner showing us his deliberation to 'move forward' and not to repeat past mistakes...he lovingly folds Alma's sweater and steadfastly puts it away in the closet... (She will be back...I will see her again...)
A beautiful moment! - Nancy
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Of course I agree with first post about Ennis closure to his world..
just little "professional" comment... depression can give some attention and memory difficulty and disinterestedness.... I think that Ennis is very depressed in this scene. :- :-
coguaro
Yes, coguaro, he did seem depressed didn't he. I also noticed that for a 41 year old man that he shuffled when he walked...like a very old man. This surprised me. I am not sure why Heath Ledger would think a 41 year old would walk like that.
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Of course I agree with first post about Ennis closure to his world..
just little "professional" comment... depression can give some attention and memory difficulty and disinterestedness.... I think that Ennis is very depressed in this scene. :- :-
coguaro
Yes, coguaro, he did seem depressed didn't he. I also noticed that for a 41 year old man that he shuffled when he walked...like a very old man. This surprised me. I am not sure why Heath Ledger would think a 41 year old would walk like that.
Probably because one ages faster and suffers from more/or faster from physical ailments if one has led a "hard life".
Don't forget, Ennis might have been only 41 years old, but he's had a tremendous load of his shoulders all his life. He's been doing "back breaking" physical labor for 20 years ("I'm gettin' too old to be breaking my back shoveling asphalt."), barely making ends meet going from job to job. ("You forget what it's like being broke all the time.") He went through a tough divorce, is now separated from his girls, still has no "permanent" job or home to speak of, no family or close friends to support him...
Having had to deal ALL those years with his complicated and anguished feelings for Jack...always keeping his true feelings deep down inside, hidden away ("...someone looks at you suspicious...like he knows?")...not having anyone to talk to about them...has led to isolation and a deep sense of lonliness for him...(I'm nothin'...and then I'm nowhere...")
And most of all, now that his soulmate, his touchstone of many years Jack is dead...Ennis is simply crushed and broken...
If I had all that on my shoulders, I think that I would surely be shuffling too... :-[
sam
(It's a good thing he still has Alma Jr.!!! A sparkling 'ray of hope and sunshine'...along this long, complicated and tough journey through a 'till now, bleek and "unfair" life... I wish all the best for Ennis in the future... "And I mean it.")
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Probably because one ages faster and suffers from more/or faster from physical ailments if one has led a "hard life".
Don't forget, Ennis might have been only 41 years old, but he's had a tremendous load of his shoulders all his life. He's been doing "back breaking" physical labor for 20 years, barely making ends meet going from job to job. ("You forget what it's like being broke all the time.") He went through a tough divorce, is now separated from his girls, still has no "permanent" job or home to speak of, no family or close friends to support him...
And of course, having had to deal ALL those years with his complicated and anguished feelings for Jack...always keeping his true feelings deep down inside, hidden away...not having anyone to talk to about them...which led to isolation and a deep sense of lonliness...(I'm nothin'...and then I'm nowhere...")
If I had all that on my shoulders, I think that I would surely be shuffling too... :-[
sam
Yes, I suppose that would be one way to show a beaten down man.
Yeah, makes sense.
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Makes a lot of sense. I still have this hope, I know it's just the Pollyanna in me but I want Ennis to finally come to terms, to realize who he is and what he had, and what he can have. It will never be Jack, but damn it he deserves something.
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Makes a lot of sense. I still have this hope, I know it's just the Pollyanna in me but I want Ennis to finally come to terms, to realize who he is and what he had, and what he can have. It will never be Jack, but damn it he deserves something.
I don't think it's "Pollyanna" at all. I wrote the same thing about him in FanFic.
Maybe he has a chance, now that he realizes what might have been.
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did you think ennis was losing his mind slightly. he kept asking about troy, alma jr's previous boyfriend even though she was talking about kurt her current boyfriend. a sweet yet sad moment. your thoughts?
I think Ennis was not losing his mind, it only shows that he cannot imagine to leave a beloved one and take another instead (what his daughter actually did), since he had always been in love with Jack even after his death. It also shows that he was a living dead after Jack's death - please keep in mind how enclosed he lived in the trailer, and finally, Eniis means "island" - and he always behaved a little bit authistic
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:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( yes, he was so lost in his own life, he closed himself to the rest of the word i totally was in tears when he told his dauger "if you don't have nothing you don't need nothing" :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( he loosed Jack his only true belonging and now he didn't have nothing he was alone and he isolated from the rest of the world
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I just have to say that I think Alma, Jr. was portrayed beautifully. The inflection of her voice, when she says, He loves me," really got to me. I don't know that actress' name and she looks vaguely familiar. Has anyone seen her in anything else?