Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: forbiddenlovers on Apr 11, 2006, 08:15 AM
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Hi!!
So, on to my next question. The significance of Mexico?
Did Jack go there because he longed for the touch of Ennis and that wasn't happening because Ennis had the girls. You know, as if to say "I want Ennis, but since I can't have that right now, I've got to have my fix, so I'm going to Mexico." Or do you think it's more deep than that. As if he longed for Ennis so bad and had it in his mind that they were going to be together now that the divorce was final. When Ennis couldn't get away, Jack had so much frustration, pent up and otherwise, that he needed his release and he would find a substitute for Ennis in Mexico.
My opinion is that Jack needed Ennis, bad. And if he couldn't have him, he needed to feel something with another man, to at least fulfull his desire to be with Ennis.
Any thoughts on this one?
Ann
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My opinion is that Jack needed Ennis, bad. And if he couldn't have him, he needed to feel something with another man, to at least fulfull his desire to be with Ennis.
That's what I thought when I watched it.
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Cool, so maybe I'm not crazy??? lol
:D
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Cool, so maybe I'm not crazy??? lol
:D
At least not because of your veiws on Brokeback Mountain. ;)
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I think Jack's weakness at this point is quite universal. It really tells you a lot about the human condition.
I repost a poem by Cavafy that seems to express the same emotional sentiment. We, being all too human, should indeed not be too quick to condemn Jack at this point.
I wallow in the tavernas and brothels of Beirut.
I didn't want to stay
in Alexandria. Tamides left me;
he went off with the Prefect's son to earn himself
a villa on the Nile, a mansion in the city.
It wouldn't have been right for me to stay in Alexandria.
I wallow in the tavernas and brothels of Beirut.
I live a vile life, devoted to cheap debauchery.
The one thing that saves me,
like durable beauty, like perfume
that goes on clinging to my flesh, is this: Tamides,
most exquisite of young men, was mine for two years,
and mine not for a house or a villa on the Nile.
- C. Cavafy
I hope you get the emotional correspondence here...
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To me, it was not the first time that Jack went to Mexico. He seemed to know where he was heading and to find boys like him.
In addition to his frastration and need to be another man, I thought this scene also gave a clear evidence that Jack is attracted to guys or gay if you will.
I also thought Jack probably told Lureen that he would be in Wyoming for a few days - but who would have thought Ennis sent him away. :'( :'( :'(
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Good point that it really show the difference between to Jack and Ennis, mexico was not an option for Ennis and to Jack it was his way out to get everything the was unable to get from Ennis i wonder how many times he had go there in their 20 years of being together since he said he was unabe to stand hight altitude f*cks once or twice a year. but Mexico would mean actually that the truth was that Jack was gay and attracted to other men rathern than Ennis
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I thought that too. But I was afraid to comment about Jack being gay, I didn't want to offend anyone. But that's what I thought on a deeper level. That there was a huge possibility that Jack was in fact gay and was looking for his contact with another man. Since he couldn't get it with Ennis, he got it somewhere else. Although, I'm positive the experience with the man in Mexico paled in comparison to his sharing the same intimacy with Ennis.
You know, I'm so dilly, when I first watched the movie, I had no clue what Jack was doing in Mexico. Even when Ennis told Jack that going to Mexico could get him killed if he knew of these things, I still didn't put two and two together. Well, I put two and two together and got five, cuz I was still lost, lol. But after thinking about the movie after I watched it through the first time, I realized what was going on. :)
Ann
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I always thought that Jack was gay, not Ennis, though.
As for if he had been to Mexico before the divorce, I don't know. He wouldn't have had to known where the town was or anything. It's common knowledge that border towns are a great place to go for almost anything that's illegal in the US. I don't think he would have had trouble finding what he needed at night in a border town.
OT- This post #420 for me... ;D... I am easily amused...
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We can't hide the fact, i don't want to offend anyone either but one thing is that mexico is the link that between Jack and his hommosexuality because then why to go there he just wanted sex, to be honest the first time i saw the movie that scene made me doubt his feelings for Ennis i thought that to him i was only sex (i know it sounds stupid) and since ennis didn't gave him that he went to mexico.
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Carlos, not stupid at all, because I thought the same thing when I first realized what he was doing in Mexico. Then I changed my thinking a bit because I thought he hungered so bad for Ennis and he NEEDED to do something or he was going to go crazy. It wasn't being with a man he wanted, it was being with Ennis, and his heart was broken when he couldn't be with him that weekend, he needed to find another man to fill the void. But, at that point, I also kind of realized that Jack was gay and that this wasn't something just between him and Ennis. I still wonder though, at the end of the movie when Jack's father mentioned Jack coming to the ranch with another man, had Jack moved on? Or did Jack simply realize that he and Ennis would never work and that Jack would try to recreate what he and Ennis could have had and did have a portion of, with another man??
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there it is the big question that would make our head explode to look for an answer in the short story annie never made reference to mexico until jack's final days and then his father mention that. i am always heart broken on that point i feel upset and mad with Jack i mean he didn't fight enough for Ennis and he dicided to quit him. that was not fair at least he could have had the guts to tell ennis which he didn't so unfair for Ennis and then i think that he could have never do it because he love him. but i ask this later how could you love somebody if you are allways being unfaithful to that person that is not love ... and here is where my mind start getting crazy i know he loves him but his actions shows something different or i am to old fashion!
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I think he loved him, and you can love someone and still be unfaithful. It's not like he wasn't trying to stay with Ennis. They were just two very different people, and Jack got tired of having to settle on having Ennis for such a tiny part of his life. I feel for him, I really do.
It's hard to say what anyone would do in his position. You don't know unless you've been there.
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i know that bram and that's what kill me i haven't being in that position and don't know what i would do but like i say i was a total mess on that point he love him, he don't love him where what i was thinking and i was unable to find and answer
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I think Jack's weakness at this point is quite universal. It really tells you a lot about the human condition.
I repost a poem by Cavafy that seems to express the same emotional sentiment. We, being all too human, should indeed not be too quick to condemn Jack at this point.
I wallow in the tavernas and brothels of Beirut.
I didn't want to stay
in Alexandria. Tamides left me;
he went off with the Prefect's son to earn himself
a villa on the Nile, a mansion in the city.
It wouldn't have been right for me to stay in Alexandria.
I wallow in the tavernas and brothels of Beirut.
I live a vile life, devoted to cheap debauchery.
The one thing that saves me,
like durable beauty, like perfume
that goes on clinging to my flesh, is this: Tamides,
most exquisite of young men, was mine for two years,
and mine not for a house or a villa on the Nile.
- C. Cavafy
I hope you get the emotional correspondence here...
Thank you, Tpe, for that beautifu Kavafy poem! I have his poetry in both Greek and English and was steeped in it during my college days......yes, as you say, it's a part of this inexorable human condition......
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Jack was desperately looking for someone to relieve his phisycal urges and personal distress.
Sex is often considered a remedy against depression. It's human, too human :(
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Jack was desperately looking for someone to relieve his phisycal urges and personal distress.
Sex is often considered a remedy against depression. It's human, too human :(
well you have a good point there mars thanks that cleared a lot my mind
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Thank you, Tpe, for that beautifu Kavafy poem! I have his poetry in both Greek and English and was steeped in it during my college days......yes, as you say, it's a part of this inexorable human condition......
Stephen, I am moved that the Poet speaks so deeply to you also. When I first saw Jack going to Juarez, this Kavafy poem instantly came to my mind. I don't know why. Just by emotional association of Jack being rejected and needing some kind of solace, which is what the poem is all about...
But the key to the poem is this: no matter what debauchery, no matter what sordidness, HE CANNOT FORGET, HE WILL NEVER FORGET, HE WILL BE HIS ALWAYS.
Thanks for understanding.
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I've mentioned this in another thread, but I'll say it here, too. Ennis and Jack are both Gay. There are many indicators in the story to support this... however, Ennis does not want to admit his homosexuality, even to himself... and Heath plays it that way, making Ennis' sexual orientation less apparent in the movie. Ennis is sexually monogamous. Jack is not. There is no "Mexico" for Ennis. He is sexually atttacted to, and passionately in love with Jack, and only Jack. When Jack goes to "Mexico," figuratively or literally, he's seeking physicality, not a love interest. His love bond with Ennis is eternal. They are "the eternal couple." Sadly, I think that the Mexico trips are also a way of "getting back" at Ennis for not setting up ranch-keeping with him, not keeping physically closer to him... something that Jack is not at all proud of. I am (or was) a kind of "Jack," and I understand those behaviors very well. Allan
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Jack was desperately looking for someone to relieve his phisycal urges and personal distress.
Sex is often considered a remedy against depression. It's human, too human :(
Isn't that the truth. It's a pick me up, if you will. Jack was clearly upset. He was so happy on his way to see Ennis. He was singing in the truck, his mood upbeat. When he leaves, you see him crying in the truck to that depressing song and you know he just needs something, ANYthing to make the pain go away!
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Jack going in Mexico of course follows his sexual needs.. it's human.
I saw a difference anyway in the sex scenes on Brokeback mountain (above all reading the short story) and the Mexico one.
The sex between Ennis and Jack on BBM happens on the sun light, on the open air (read on short story) while the Jack approach with Mexican young man happens in the darkness (remember the scene in which Jack and the man in Mexico dissolve in the dusk of the night..). That's light/night, clear/dusk contrast symbolize the difference between making love and doing sex... without love .... I guess
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Jack was desperately looking for someone to relieve his phisycal urges and personal distress.
Sex is often considered a remedy against depression. It's human, too human :(
Yes it is "too human". I feel bad for Jack in that scene because he doesn't look happy to be there- almost disgusted that this is what he as to do to meet his needs. He drove all the way to Wyoming hoping/thinking that this is it- Ennis is free and then he's sent away.
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Thank you, Tpe, for that beautifu Kavafy poem! I have his poetry in both Greek and English and was steeped in it during my college days......yes, as you say, it's a part of this inexorable human condition......
Stephen, I am moved that the Poet speaks so deeply to you also. When I first saw Jack going to Juarez, this Kavafy poem instantly came to my mind. I don't know why. Just by emotional association of Jack being rejected and needing some kind of solace, which is what the poem is all about...
But the key to the poem is this: no matter what debauchery, no matter what sordidness, HE CANNOT FORGET, HE WILL NEVER FORGET, HE WILL BE HIS ALWAYS.
Thanks for understanding.
I am unfamiliar with this poet but the posted poem touched me deeply and your interpretation of it tpe hits me where it hurts. Thanks.
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Thank you also, BBBOY. As was discussed by the other posters, it's all so human. As human beings, we cannot but look with some sympathy -- anyone who has loved and has been rejected will understand the void that is seemingly never filled. We try to fill it with anything, and we realize that as much as we put in to fill in the void, we only end up inflaming that love all the more deep inside.
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Thank you also, BBBOY. As was discussed by the other posters, it's all so human. As human beings, we cannot but look with some sympathy -- anyone who has loved and has been rejected will understand the void that is seemingly never filled. We try to fill it with anything, and we realize that as much as we put in to fill in the void, we only end up inflaming that love all the more deep inside.
Golden words, Tpe :(
It's the human condition,no other thoughts....
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Mars, I really felt for Jack in this scene in Juarez. It is painful to see him settle for a prostitute when he couldn't get what he wanted. It wasn't just lust. Anyone who has been rejected at least once in life will know what I mean. You need something to forget. You need something cheap and sordid to mask out the need for the unattainable and the sublime.
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Yes Tpe, it's sadly true... :'(
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:'( :'( it is true i know what you mean
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THE FOLLOWING QUOTE WAS MOVED FROM ANOTHER THREAD BECAUSE TO ANSWER THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN OFF TOPIC.
Now in retrospect, I feel a little pain right now because that was what was playing on the radio in Jack's truck when he left Ennis behind and had made the trip up to Wyoming for nothing. (Sort of OT here, I was upset by the movie because instead of Jack going on up to Lightning Flat or back to Childress, Texas, they had Jack high-tail it to El Paso, Texas to cross the border and have sex with a Mexican. I really don't think that the book version of Jack ever went to Mexico in the first place.
I agree with you TJ. There are two scenes in the movie I have never (from the second time on) been able to watch. The first (and most important) is Jack's death. The second one is his trip to Mexico. I absolutely did not like the screenwriters suggesting that the only reason Jack went to Ennis' after the divorce was for sex. If it wasn't just for sex why did he have the need to go to Mexico? He could have gone to his parent's home or like you said back home to Childress. He wouldn't have needed to go to Mexico for a prostitute.
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There's no way Jack only went to Ennis after the divorce for sex - he genuinely believed that this was their chance to set up ranch together - but when Ennis rejectd him again, his devastation led him to seek an outlet for his frustration (and I don't just mean sexual frustration). I think there would also have been some thought of "getting back" at Ennis by going with a prostitute - even though Ennis would never (or at least, not until much later) know about it.
I guess when you're mad at someone the most obvious thing to do for revenge is the one thing you know they'd really, really disapprove of.
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There's no way Jack only went to Ennis after the divorce for sex - he genuinely believed that this was their chance to set up ranch together - but when Ennis rejectd him again, his devastation led him to seek an outlet for his frustration (and I don't just mean sexual frustration). I think there would also have been some thought of "getting back" at Ennis by going with a prostitute - even though Ennis would never (or at least, not until much later) know about it.
I guess when you're mad at someone the most obvious thing to do for revenge is the one thing you know they'd really, really disapprove of.
I am going to have to take your word for it. I have no experience in these matters. I don't like Jack going to Mexico.
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THE FOLLOWING QUOTE WAS MOVED FROM ANOTHER THREAD BECAUSE TO ANSWER THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN OFF TOPIC.
Now in retrospect, I feel a little pain right now because that was what was playing on the radio in Jack's truck when he left Ennis behind and had made the trip up to Wyoming for nothing. (Sort of OT here, I was upset by the movie because instead of Jack going on up to Lightning Flat or back to Childress, Texas, they had Jack high-tail it to El Paso, Texas to cross the border and have sex with a Mexican. I really don't think that the book version of Jack ever went to Mexico in the first place.
I agree with you TJ. There are two scenes in the movie I have never (from the second time on) been able to watch. The first (and most important) is Jack's death. The second one is his trip to Mexico. I absolutely did not like the screenwriters suggesting that the only reason Jack went to Ennis' after the divorce was for sex. If it wasn't just for sex why did he have the need to go to Mexico? He could have gone to his parent's home or like you said back home to Childress. He wouldn't have needed to go to Mexico for a prostitute.
If you look at a USA Road Atlas and you draw a line from where Ennis was living after the divorce in Wyoming to El Paso, Texas and Juarez, Mexico (chosing the best roads along the way), you will see that Jack would have had plenty of places to stop to have anonymous sex. And, there would have been plenty of reststops and truck stops between where Ennis lived and Childress, Texas, too.
To me, "Mexico" was place Ennis had heard about and IMO, it was not the available sex that was the problem, it was the fact that a guy could get killed in Mexico for being a "maricon" (that's "queer" in English). [OT sorta, I have met Mexicans (in LA) who claimed they were not gay because they were not a bottom when they had sex. But, their sexual orientation was definitely exclusively homosexual.)
Going by the book version here: After Jack's wife, Lureen, inherited her father's company, she gave Jack a vague managerial title and made him a buyer for her company. I would say that Jack took advantage of the travel expense account that went with the job and probably had "guests" in his motel/hotel room while he was on the road.
I say what I did in the above, because during my closet days, I was not the one who did the traveling; but, I had sex with guys, who were salesmen and/or company reps, when they were in town. I met them at the places closeted homosexuals also went. BTW, some of them were from Texas, too. And, since I was living with my folks back then, it was defintely where they were staying.
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If you look at a USA Road Atlas and you draw a line from where Ennis was living after the divorce in Wyoming to El Paso, Texas and Juarez, Mexico (chosing the best roads along the way), you will see that Jack would have had plenty of places to stop to have anonymous sex. And, there would have been plenty of reststops and truck stops between where Ennis lived and Childress, Texas, too.
To me, "Mexico" was place Ennis had heard about and IMO, it was not the available sex that was the problem, it was the fact that a guy could get killed in Mexico for being a "maricon" (that's "queer" in English). [OT sorta, I have met Mexicans (in LA) who claimed they were not gay because they were not a bottom when they had sex. But, their sexual orientation was definitely exclusively homosexual.)
Going by the book version here: After Jack's wife, Lureen, inherited her father's company, she gave Jack a vague managerial title and made him a buyer for her company. I would say that Jack took advantage of the travel expense account that went with the job and probably had "guests" in his motel/hotel room while he was on the road.
I say what I did in the above, because during my closet days, I was not the one who did the traveling; but, I had sex with guys, who were salesmen and/or company reps, when they were in town. I met them at the places closeted homosexuals also went. BTW, some of them were from Texas, too. And, since I was living with my folks back then, it was defintely where they were staying.
That makes a lot of sense. My dad is part owner of a small company out in small town Texas, and I know of at least a couple of guys there that go on trips like that and use company money to get gas and motel rooms for girls they're cheating on their wives with. I don't believe any of them are cheating with guys, and I have been known to have some pretty good gaydar.
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I guess when you're mad at someone the most obvious thing to do for revenge is the one thing you know they'd really, really disapprove of.
I am going to have to take your word for it. I have no experience in these matters. I don't like Jack going to Mexico.
I think Jack was just trying to assuage the pain of Ennis' rejection. I've known people who have been dumped by spouses or lovers who've done the same sort of thing. But instead of going to Mexico, they go to a bar pick somebody up and have a one night stand. And I'm sure Jack was pretty drunk by the time he let that prostitute pick him up. It was a way to block out the pain, even if only for a little while. I felt very sorry for him, and certainly didn't blame him for what he did.
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Oh, I just say that Jack thought, "Ennis, if you are going to accuse me of going to Mexico, and by the way that you are acting you seem to believe that I have already been there, I might as well tell another lie and claim it to be true. After all, you believed the lie about the rancher's wife down in Texas when you lied about that bar girl to prove you're still not no queer."
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And I'm sure Jack was pretty drunk by the time he let that prostitute pick him up. It was a way to block out the pain, even if only for a little while. I felt very sorry for him, and certainly didn't blame him for what he did.
I must have missed something. I missed the part where Jack was drinking on his way to Mexico. And, I think I missed the part where the prostitute picks Jack up. I thought it was the other way around.
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And I'm sure Jack was pretty drunk by the time he let that prostitute pick him up. It was a way to block out the pain, even if only for a little while. I felt very sorry for him, and certainly didn't blame him for what he did.
I must have missed something. I missed the part where Jack was drinking on his way to Mexico. And, I think I missed the part where the prostitute picks Jack up. I thought it was the other way around.
I don't think it really matters who picked up whom; I tend to go along with Jack doing the picking simply because I have done the very same thing after a terrible row with my own partner many years ago. [We've been together 30 years.] I think it's a very common reaction among men who've been through an emotional firestorm, and I don't blame Jack one bit.
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I don't think it really matters who picked up whom; I tend to go along with Jack doing the picking simply because I have done the very same thing after a terrible row with my own partner many years ago. [We've been together 30 years.] I think it's a very common reaction among men who've been through an emotional firestorm, and I don't blame Jack one bit.
Well, I just don't understand how you can sleep with someone else just because you and your partner have had a fight or because you are disappointed. (By the way, I use the word "you" but I am not meaning YOU KEMMER) What on earth does that accomplish? How does that settle anything?
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It can be a quick remedy for all the pain and anger that result from a misunderstanding or a partner's being unavailable, for whatever reason. I'm not saying it's a good remedy, or solves anything-if anything it creates more problems-but it can definitely make you feel better for a while. Been there, done that.
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It can be a quick remedy for all the pain and anger that result from a misunderstanding or a partner's being unavailable, for whatever reason. I'm not saying it's a good remedy, or solves anything-if anything it creates more problems-but it can definitely make you feel better for a while. Been there, done that.
I don't know guys. I guess it is my total lack of any experience that prevents me from seeing how anyone could do such a thing. If I ever slept with someone other than my partner I would never be able to face him again. ???
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I guess it's just that some people, and some relationships, are able to handle the fact that each partner is human, therefore fallible. For me, and for us, the important thing is to be honest and willing to answer for our mistakes. ( I should clarify here that when I said been there, done that, it was referring to a previous relationship, not my current one of ten years.)
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I guess it's just that some people, and some relationships, are able to handle the fact that each partner is human, therefore fallible. For me, and for us, the important thing is to be honest and willing to answer for our mistakes. ( I should clarify here that when I said been there, done that, it was referring to a previous relationship, not my current one of ten years.)
So you are saying it is a mistake and therefore wrong? It is something that can just happen because we are human?
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Well, Patriot1, let me ask you a question. Ennis obviously isn't too hot on the idea of Jack's going to Mexico either, and verbally threatens to kill him for it, in the heat of anger. Subsequently, Jack dies, or is killed. Thus, Ennis gets his wish, in a manner of speaking. Jack is "appropriately" punished for doing wrong. Absolutist categorizing of behavior as either always right or always wrong tends to lead to just such consequences. Witness the punishments meted out in some Islamic societies for sexual transgressions. On a less dramatic scale, I do know of some couples who would throw out or leave their partner/spouse for sleeping with someone else, regardless of the circumstances, or how long they have been togther.
I tend to view a relationship as a form of emotional investment, and so I am less likely to abandon a partner without question or delay just because-in my case, he-slept with someone else. I wouldn't be too happy about it, but I wouldn't necessarily be out the door tomorrow either. And my question to you is, how do you think Ennis feels about his statement of "... All them things I don't know...could get you killed if I should come to know them!" , by the end of the film? Is he swearing vengeance when he gazes at the shirts? Remember, he learned of another infidelity from Jack's father. "Jack, I swear, I would've killed you myself!"? Or, "I would've never seen you again!"?
Or would he take it all back?? Just to have one more chance to be with Jack again. I think so.
And in my personal calculus of values, I think Ennis's verbal threat is worse than all of Jack's liasons with other men, realized or attempted.
But, sap that I am, I'd forgive them both.
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Or would he take it all back?? Just to have one more chance to be with Jack again. I think so.
Beyond any shadow of a doubt, yes. The look on Ennis's face when he finds the shirts and later when he says "Jack, I swear..." isn't the look of a man who would have exacted the ultimate revenge - it's the look of a man who realises too late how much he loved Jack, how much he's lost, and how much he'd give to have another chance.
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I think we've got to realize that Jack spent ca 14 hours burning up the road between Childress and Riverton in a state of ecstacy and anticipation. Ennis was divorced at last and Jack saw the life of his dreams unfolding before him--after so many years of furtive and "never-enough-time" spent with Ennis. Now they could begin building their life together.
When Jack found out that it just wasn't so, he was stunned and devastated---and I thought Ennis handled the situation abominably. For the first time we saw Jack crying. Going to Mexico wasn't just about sex. It was a catharsis.
C'mon, admit it, guys. Under extreme emotional stress, sometimes doesn't it help to "get off"?
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Absolutely!
Patriot's right in one respect though; there can be hell to pay later!
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Jack's (actual) trip to Mexico in the movie was from the mind of the screenplay writers. Annie Proulx never wrote in her original story that Jack ever went to Mexico for any reason.
Jack's "Mexico" was not a country in his (book) response; it was his attempt to get emotional fulfillment from other guys when he as not with Ennis up in Wyoming.
Ennis had no problem whatsoever with Jack having sex with women; but, he was jealous of Jack having, or the possibility of having, sex with another man.
They did not have a committed/covenanted relationship; but, Ennis acted like he owned Jack when it came to sex and relationships with other guys. That's why Jack complained about the "short lease" Ennis kept him on.
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As you can see, I have given this discussion about Jack going to Mexico for sex with a prostitute because he was hurt and disappointed a lot of thought. I have consolidated the pertinant posts to make it easier to follow the discussion.
I absolutely did not like the screenwriters suggesting that the only reason Jack went to Ennis' after the divorce was for sex. If it wasn't just for sex why did he have the need to go to Mexico?
I guess when you're mad at someone the most obvious thing to do for revenge is the one thing you know they'd really, really disapprove of.
I am going to have to take your word for it. I have no experience in these matters. I don't like Jack going to Mexico.
I think it's a very common reaction among men who've been through an emotional firestorm, and I don't blame Jack one bit.
Well, I just don't understand how you can sleep with someone else just because you and your partner have had a fight or because you are disappointed. (By the way, I use the word "you" but I am not meaning YOU KEMMER) What on earth does that accomplish? How does that settle anything?
It can be a quick remedy for all the pain and anger that result from a misunderstanding or a partner's being unavailable, for whatever reason. I'm not saying it's a good remedy, or solves anything-if anything it creates more problems-but it can definitely make you feel better for a while. Been there, done that.
I don't know guys. I guess it is my total lack of any experience that prevents me from seeing how anyone could do such a thing. If I ever slept with someone other than my partner I would never be able to face him again. ???
I guess it's just that some people, and some relationships, are able to handle the fact that each partner is human, therefore fallible. For me, and for us, the important thing is to be honest and willing to answer for our mistakes.
So you are saying it is a mistake and therefore wrong? It is something that can just happen because we are human?
Subject was changed to forgiveness for transgressions here. I do not want to dismiss this post because I feel it is important but do not feel it is in keeping with the theme of this discussion; Jack going to Mexico for sex with a prostitute because he is hurt and disappointed. I will make mention of this post (forgiveness) later.
I think we've got to realize that Jack spent ca 14 hours burning up the road between Childress and Riverton in a state of ecstacy and anticipation. Ennis was divorced at last and Jack saw the life of his dreams unfolding before him--after so many years of furtive and "never-enough-time" spent with Ennis. Now they could begin building their life together.
When Jack found out that it just wasn't so, he was stunned and devastated---and I thought Ennis handled the situation abominably.
For the first time we saw Jack crying. Going to Mexico wasn't just about sex. It was a catharsis.
C'mon, admit it, guys. Under extreme emotional stress, sometimes doesn't it help to "get off"?
From reading all of this I come away with the following: Jack's behavior was acceptable, considering the conditions, although not really appropriate. He is, after all, only human.
But it is because he is human that I can not understand his behavior. Jack shows up on Ennis' door step unannounced expecting they are now going to live in wedded bliss together. Why? Ennis told Jack years ago, "Two men living together...no way." What made Jack think that no longer applied?
No, I see Jack driving up to Ennis' thinking he was finally going to spend a week with Ennis at Ennis' house where it was warm and where Jack could get some loving and sex from the man he loved. He realized that wasn't going to happen when he saw Ennis' face when the truck drove by. Ennis was terrified the people in the truck might wonder who this guy is with Ennis and think they were two fags. Paranoia, plain and simple. So, Jack drives away hurt and disappointed. And for those of you who haven't read it on other threads, I think Ennis' behavior was deplorable, even if Jack hadn't warned him he was coming.
So, Jack drives away hurt and disappointed. And what does he do? He says to himself, I'll show you Ennis del Mar! You don't want me around? Good. I'll go to Mexico to get what I need from a sleazy prostitute who, in all likelyhood, has every kind of venereal disease known to man. I'll show you! Problem is, Ennis didn't know he went to Mexico so I guess Jack wasn't showing Ennis anything.
In my opinion, I would have liked to see the screenwriters make Jack into a REAL human and have him say, Ok, I did drop in unexpected. Tell you what Ennis, I am going to get a room for the night at the motel and sleep the night there before going back to Texas. If you can get away for a few hours tonight, stop by. You know I want to see you. Then Jack drives off and cries himself to sleep or until Ennis shows up. To me, that would have been a whole lot better than running off to Mexico. That would have made him a rational human.
And, if it is true, that while under extreme emotional stress, sometimes it helps to "get off", then Jack could have made a date with Rosie Palm at the motel.
Now, as for forgiveness; I would forgive the person I loved anything, once...maybe twice in a lifetime. More than that and I start thinking I am being used. If we are living together that means that I have given my heart, my mind my very essence to you. I would sacrefice anything for you, including my life if need be. Trample on that once, maybe twice and I will learn to live with that pain. But, don't push your luck thinking you will get away with it "because you are only human." So am I, and I would NEVER, EVER go with someone else just because I was disappointed and hurt.
You think that is fantasy world crap? Well, maybe. I live in a fantasy world. It is the only world I know about. But, if I ever came out of my shell I would do anything and everything I could to make it happen in the real world.
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Change the word "acceptable" above to "understandable", and from my viewpoint, that would be about right. I feel like my words are getting twisted a bit here; I'm not endorsing sleeping around on a partner. And we must remember that there has been no commitment made by Jack to remain faithful to Ennis, hence the line about Brokeback Mountain being all they have. Not a "relationship", and not a commitment. I think Jack would have made such a commitment if Ennis were available to live with him, but as it stood, no.
And I don't feel the screenwriters intended that Jack was just heading up to Wyoming to spend a week at Ennis's house. That wouldn't be much of an advance on their two-or-three-time-a-year "fishing" trips, and its not happening wouldn't have been so devastating. I think we are meant to believe that Jack was going to Wyoming with the expectation, or at least the hope, that Ennis would now be available to have the kind of relationship he had been dreaming of, precisely because Jack is a dreamer by nature.
"...a sleazy prostitute who, in all likelihood, has every kind of venereal disease known to man" Not much I can add to that one except to say: judgemental?? Yikes!!
But seriously, I hope you yet find the partner with whom you can share the kind of relationship you allude to here. There are many who hold the strong feeling about commitment and monogamy that you do. Be clear to him what your hopes and your expectations are, and best or luck in coming out of that shell, hard and crusty as it may be. ;)
Peace,
david
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In discussion about a book and about a movie, in the same section of this forum, there can be lots of confusion, especially when some things in the book are not in the movie and some of the things in the movie are not in the book. Or when some things in the movie are in the book; but, they are not in the same place or time as in the book.
In the book, Mexico was a place which Ennis had heard some things about and I think they were related to homophobia and the fact that queers did get murdered for whom they were, just like what they did to queers in Wyoming when he was 9 years old.
But, in the movie, Ennis had heard that Mexico was a place where (queer) "boys like (Jack)" went to get sex whenever they wanted it.
Mexico in the book means one thing to me and in the Movie, Mexico is something altogether different.
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TJ,
Interesting differentiation, and not one that I had thought much about. But in reading the story, I took it literally and assumed that Jack had had dalliances in Mexico. In your interpretation, is this then just a code word for Jack having sex with other men?
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TJ,
Interesting differentiation, and not one that I had thought much about. But in reading the story, I took it literally and assumed that Jack had had dalliances in Mexico. In your interpretation, is this then just a code word for Jack having sex with other men?
IMO, as a person who had two college classes which were related to literary criticism, I would say that "Mexico" is just a code word for "sexual encounters with guys other than with Ennis." It has been so long since I had those courses that I have forgotten some of the terminology used in them.
It was almost like Jack felt that Ennis was accusing of him committing same-sex adultery outside of their relationship.
The truth was that besides their lying in their final time together, they were not communicating very well in understanding what each other meant when they were talking.
Ennis did not always say exactly what he meant at times.
Here's a quote from that last time together:
"I got a say this to you one time, Jack, and I ain't foolin. What I don't know," said Ennis, "all them things I don't know could get you killed if I should come to know them."
Did he really threaten to kill Jack if he as cheating on him and he found out? Or did he feel that by the time he found out for certain that Jack actually did those things, Jack would have been killed by another person? I think it was the latter. It was almost Ennis was expecting it to happen to Jack and that is why he jumped to conclusions twice about "the tire iron."
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But seriously, I hope you yet find the partner with whom you can share the kind of relationship you allude to here.
Nope, never will happen. For 43 years I have been safe inside my little shell. Stepping outside for even a second can cause pain, and not only for myself either. Never realized how lonely I was until, for the first time, I joined a forum to talk about a movie that had such a strong affect on me. I discovered a lot of wonderful people; people I have difficulty communicating with because for 43 years the only person I ever talked to was me.
Unless you know of someone looking for a hard and crusty old curmudgeon. ;)
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"Did he really threaten to kill Jack if he as cheating on him and he found out? Or did he feel that by the time he found out for certain that Jack actually did those things, Jack would have been killed by another person? I think it was the latter. It was almost Ennis was expecting it to happen to Jack and that is why he jumped to conclusions twice about "the tire iron."'
My reservations with that interpretation, at least with respect to the film: the body language and the barely repressed fury in Ennis's voice when he says this, and the word "if", not "when" or "by the time". "If" seems to imply a cause and effect relationship.
I also didn't think Ennis was lying in his reference to " putting the blocks" to Cassie. I don't see where you get that he is lying. As for Jack, I think I may start a thread on "pronoun switching" as a time honored tradition among closeted gays. ;)
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Jack looks for sex because he is deeply sad, all his hopes has gone.
As Ennis has not excuses to refuse to live together, he realizes that all those years he was waiting for him, it was for nothing.
He acts in a compulsive way. he is out of control. This scene impressed me a lot, because it is telling us the beginging of the end.
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"Did he really threaten to kill Jack if he as cheating on him and he found out? Or did he feel that by the time he found out for certain that Jack actually did those things, Jack would have been killed by another person? I think it was the latter. It was almost Ennis was expecting it to happen to Jack and that is why he jumped to conclusions twice about "the tire iron."'
My reservations with that interpretation, at least with respect to the film: the body language and the barely repressed fury in Ennis's voice when he says this, and the word "if", not "when" or "by the time". "If" seems to imply a cause and effect relationship.
I also didn't think Ennis was lying in his reference to " putting the blocks" to Cassie. I don't see where you get that he is lying. As for Jack, I think I may start a thread on "pronoun switching" as a time honored tradition among closeted gays. ;)
I realize that you are one of the folks who consider homosexual to be equal with gay and give both words the same definition; but, IMO my stick-in-the-mud, fuddy-duddy, educated-somewhat-about human sexuality and psychology study experience, there is no such thing as "closeted gay." There are no happy people in the homosexual closet.
The problem here is also the fact that were are discussing an aspect of both "The Movie & Story" with the sub category being "Characters, Quotes & Scenes with a sub-sub category of "The Significance of Mexico." What was not detailed as fact in the book, "Mexico," was made into a scene in the Movie.
In their last time together, they were telling each other truth and lies. Now what was the truth and what were the lies? IMO, the lies were the woman who worked in a bar, the rancher's wife in Texas and that led to another lie which turned out to be Mexico in the last hour they were together.
While I would like to ask the author, Ms. Annie Proux, about a lot of her unanswered questions in the story, I seriously doubt that will happen. Some people who are just as educated as I have and have actually written real published articles about her story have said that instead of answering Ms. Proulx's questions about Ennis and his relationship with Jack, the screenplay and the movie brought up even more unanswered questions.
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I took Mexico to mean a place where, they had heard, same-sex sex was available/tolerated. I also think Jack was so devastated by Jack's behaviour, and perhaps aware of how much too much he had presumed after hearing that Ennis was divorced, that the trip to Mexico represented an attempt to get back at him - "You hurt me, now I'm going to hurt you". Illogical, certainly, but people in love don't always behave rationally. and maybe Jack needed physical contact - his marriage was a shell, and the desperation in that embrace with Ennis when he arives is obvious.
An sex, with anyone, can be a means of obliterating thought, even for a short time - Jack wanted a mindless escape, I think.
As for " could get you killed", Ennis's father had shown him someone whose lifestyle had got him killed - this had clearly made an indelible impression and was something Ennis could never get over, hence his revulsion at himself and inability to commit to Jack.
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"Did he really threaten to kill Jack if he as cheating on him and he found out? Or did he feel that by the time he found out for certain that Jack actually did those things, Jack would have been killed by another person? I think it was the latter. It was almost Ennis was expecting it to happen to Jack and that is why he jumped to conclusions twice about "the tire iron."'
But Jack seemed to think Ennis threatened to kill him. Jack said, "Measure the f**kin' short leash you keep me on, then ask me about Mexico and tell me you'll kill me for needin' somethin' I don't hardly never get."
What was the second time Ennis jumped to conclusions about "the tire iron" ?
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But Jack seemed to think Ennis threatened to kill him. Jack said, "Measure the f**kin' short leash you keep me on, then ask me about Mexico and tell me you'll kill me for needin' somethin' I don't hardly never get."
What was the second time Ennis jumped to conclusions about "the tire iron" ?
Yeah, I agree with that - Jack did seem to think that Ennis had threatened him. I found it a bit strange that he would think that, though - I mean, we all know Ennis has never said how he feels about Jack but he's shown it often enough (even just the night before this confrontation, sleeping with his arm round Jack). Surely Jack couldn't possibly believe that Ennis would kill him? ???
As for the tire iron question - I have no idea either. Anyone?
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I can only repeat what I have said before.
Yeah, I agree with that - Jack did seem to think that Ennis had threatened him. I found it a bit strange that he would think that, though - I mean, we all know Ennis has never said how he feels about Jack but he's shown it often enough (even just the night before this confrontation, sleeping with his arm round Jack). Surely Jack couldn't possibly believe that Ennis would kill him? ???
When Ennis threatened Jack's life it was the homophobic Ennis speaking. This was not the Ennis who loved his friend and would do anything for him, including quit jobs so they could be together. Ennis never for a moment considered having sex with anyone but Jack. He assumed it was the same with Jack. "I ain't queer." "Me neither." But when Jack mentions Mexico, in the homophobic Ennis' eyes Jack became one of the, "...boys like you." And "..boys like you" need to be killed..."I ain't foolin." So, in essence Ennis was saying to Jack, don't tell me all those things that happen in Mexico, because if I come to know all those things, you could end up dead. As long as it was Jack and Ennis that was fine, it was nobody's business but theirs. But bring in others and it is no longer a special bond between two men, Ennis suddenly becomes one in a long line of others. That is not what he gave up everything for. He accepted the poverty, loss of family, etc. for his special friend, but he wasn't about to be told he was nothing more to Jack than a trick.
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You know, Patriot, just after I posted my reply I actually remembered you saying that before but I had a meeting to go to so I couldn't change my post - you're right, of course.
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Hi!!
So, on to my next question. The significance of Mexico?
Did Jack go there because he longed for the touch of Ennis and that wasn't happening because Ennis had the girls. You know, as if to say "I want Ennis, but since I can't have that right now, I've got to have my fix, so I'm going to Mexico." Or do you think it's more deep than that. As if he longed for Ennis so bad and had it in his mind that they were going to be together now that the divorce was final. When Ennis couldn't get away, Jack had so much frustration, pent up and otherwise, that he needed his release and he would find a substitute for Ennis in Mexico.
My opinion is that Jack needed Ennis, bad. And if he couldn't have him, he needed to feel something with another man, to at least fulfull his desire to be with Ennis.
Any thoughts on this one?
Ann
Imo, there's no need for a physical release or something like that in Jack, I think he only yearns for one release - he wants to be free of Ennis. Deciding to go to Mexico Jack wanted to end that which he had with Ennis. You see it in his face when he leaves Ennis, there's a lot of anger, no it's not any physical arousal he needs to attend to - he couldn't care less for the many prostitutes he must have indulged in, or the one right after that weekend - it's anger. We all know that feeling, trying to wash away someone with whatever we get our hands on. Sometimes the more insignificant the "soap" the better. The prostitute was not a substitute for Ennis - how could he? - but a cheap "soap", trying to get Ennis out of his mind. Like there must have been so many attempts to be free of ennis in Jack's life, even more serious ones, like Randall. And every time the tryst with these prostitutes or rather peripheral characters (like Randall) ended - there was Ennis.
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We know from the short story that Jack had some other man relations other then Ennis; I mean that Jack had a very different attitude regarding sex.
In the specific case of Mexico I think that Jack reacted not only because of his sex need but also because he felt to be unjustly considered from Ennis. After crying in the car he seems to have a pride gesture and a severe look drying up his tears.
On my opinion sex encounter in Mexico have a different significance in the story compared to the sex between Ennis and Jack because it is described as something which happens in the darkness not in the light of the sun (as in Brokeback mountain!). That difference is important to emphasize sex as a pleasure act (maybe a disheartened kind of sex) and sex as love act...
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To me the significance of Mexico is that it was exotic... having grown up at that time, travelling from WI to MN was exotic. Travelling from WI to Mexico would have been a dream. Believe it would have been a dream for Ennis too - it is another way of emphasizing their different life experiences as the years passed. Jack was going to Mexico to be as far from Ennis as he could be at that heart-breaking time and he did not want to go home to Lureen. He wanted to be away from both. He was fleeing the reality that he might not have what he wanted. Whether he travelled to Mexico seeking sex is another question - I kinda think not, but when it did happen, it validated Jack at a time when he needed validation as a human. Maybe I'm giving Jack too much credit, but think that underneath his outgoing side was one that hurt every bit as Ennis.
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Can a prostitute validate anything in someone other than giving you a good feeling because of the power of being able to buy his/her body and insincere attentions...? Jack was using whomever's body, I don't think he was looking for validation as a human in those trysts. Imo, he must have felt contempt for the "bodies", he was looking for distraction there not the real human warmth he had with Ennis... Nobody/nothing could be a substitue for Ennis, but I imagine once in a while he must've felt some singleminded euphoria, forgetting Ennis for some moments, maybe with Randall. I really would've wished to see what would've become of Jack and Randall - would they have managed to build a life for themselves, a happy life, or would Ennis have come back to haunt Jack after a while? We'll never know...
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At times, think that we are ascribing attibutes to Jack or Ennis that would be foreign to their limited areas of experience. Keep telling myself, keep it simple, because that is the type of life they lead, though Jack's expanded as the years passed. Jack loves Ennis, Jack wants to be with Ennis, Jack feels he is rejected. Jack goes away from Ennis to Mexico. This is where I would say that Jack was not looking for sex - know that in my own experience after being rejected, sex is the last thing on my mind. Given some time to reflect, yes Jack could have gone with the sole purpose of finding a sexual partner. Don't think he left Ennis with the thought - Ennis doesn't want me, so I'm gonna go to Mexico to f..k another guy. Realistically he could have found someone much closer, and still not be close to either Ennis or Lureen.
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xvbbj, don't you think that most people have used another human for sex as a validation of their own sexuality, and I'm not speaking of prostitutes - so a prostitute you have to pay, a one-night-stand you don't, a casual acquaintance you don't. May be a jaded view, but think it is also valid. Jack was so emotionally tied with Ennis, that he used the one with the least emotional ocmplications.
Forget Randall, don't think he played any more important part in Jack's life than a prostitute... that is where Jack would have been using someone to mimic what he had with Ennis.
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"Did he really threaten to kill Jack if he as cheating on him and he found out? Or did he feel that by the time he found out for certain that Jack actually did those things, Jack would have been killed by another person? I think it was the latter. It was almost Ennis was expecting it to happen to Jack and that is why he jumped to conclusions twice about "the tire iron."'
But Jack seemed to think Ennis threatened to kill him. Jack said, "Measure the f**kin' short leash you keep me on, then ask me about Mexico and tell me you'll kill me for needin' somethin' I don't hardly never get."
What was the second time Ennis jumped to conclusions about "the tire iron" ?
What Ennis said was more like what sounded like an indirect threat of murder; but, Ennis did not exactly say he would kill Jack.
The first time about "the tire iron" was when Lureen talked in a rather cold tone of voice to Ennis on the phone about the "accident."
The 2nd time was when Ennis was at the Twist place when Mr. Twist said, "Then, this spring he's got another one's goin a come up here with him and build a place and help run the ranch, some ranch neighbor a his from down in Texas. He's goin a split up with his wife and come back here. So he says. But like most a Jack's ideas it never come to pass."
Ennis thought immediately after hearing that was, "So now he knew it had been the tire iron."
Ennis assumes that Jack's relationship with the ranch neighbor (whom we have never heard of in the book) is what got Jack killed and it was with "the tire iron."
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I can see that - using a one-night-stand or a casual acquaintance or maybe even a longer relationship without love as a validation of their own sexuality or attractivity. Or maybe just for distraction. I guess there are many reasons why people engage in these trysts, and sometimes sexuality or any emotional ties aren't the driving force.
Jack was so emotionally tied with Ennis, that he used the one with the least emotional ocmplications.
Oh yea, I can definitely see that. As for Randall, I don't think Jack ever wanted to live on a ranch with some prostitutes, but he wanted to do that with Randall - at least that's what I heard in the movie (haven't read the short story yet)...
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I'm not convinced that Jack ever really intended to live with Randall - significantly, his father says "he used to talk about moving up here with Ennis del Mar...then this spring he's got another one gonna move up here" (these may not be the exact words but they're close enough) The first phrase suggests that Jack spoke about Ennis more than once - maybe every time he visited his parents from 1963 onwards - while the second suggests to me that he only mentioned Randall (and possibly not by name?) once. Now I know this could be because he died and never got another chance to mention the other man, but the fact that his father says "but like all Jack's ideas, it never came to pass" doesn't really indicate that.
Am I making any sense?
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I think that Jack intended to live with Randall on that ranch, I think he was finally settling for a more comfortable partner and I guess the attraction might not have been so strong, not to speak of the emotional ties that still bound him to Ennis, but Jack was changing and he must have realised that Ennis wa s"gone" - he indeed intended to live with Randall, that's what I see in the movie. That nothing became of it is another story.
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I'm not convinced that Jack ever really intended to live with Randall - significantly, his father says "he used to talk about moving up here with Ennis del Mar...then this spring he's got another one gonna move up here" (these may not be the exact words but they're close enough) The first phrase suggests that Jack spoke about Ennis more than once - maybe every time he visited his parents from 1963 onwards - while the second suggests to me that he only mentioned Randall (and possibly not by name?) once. Now I know this could be because he died and never got another chance to mention the other man, but the fact that his father says "but like all Jack's ideas, it never came to pass" doesn't really indicate that.
Am I making any sense?
Yes you are making sense but you got lost. Jack and Ennis meet for the last time. Jack is going up to visit his parents right after that meeting. When he leaves the parking lot he has decided he and Randall are getting together. Jack drives up to his parents and tells the old man he is bringing Randall up there. Then, sometime between the time he leaves his parents (spring time) and November (or probably October) he is killed.
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I personally think Jack wen to Mexico to fill the void he was missing from Ennis..I don't think he had any real love or true feelings for the other guys he had sex with..it just to have sex..IN his heart and soul he really loved Ennis. The other men were just voids to fill a missing peice..they were Ennis, he didn't love them or care about them or have any real feelings for them.
When he left Ennis and was driving towards Mexico after the divorce he was crying and really hurt. He used the guys to fill the missing peices..it was just sex and no love on his part..thats just my opinion..he was really hurt that he couldn't have a full life with Ennis and share with him..so he went else where to get the missing peices filled in..
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I personally think Jack wen to Mexico to fill the void he was missing from Ennis..I don't think he had any real love or true feelings for the other guys he had sex with..it just to have sex..IN his heart and soul he really loved Ennis. The other men were just voids to fill a missing peice..they were Ennis, he didn't love them or care about them or have any real feelings for them.
When he left Ennis and was driving towards Mexico after the divorce he was crying and really hurt. He used the guys to fill the missing peices..it was just sex and no love on his part..thats just my opinion..he was really hurt that he couldn't have a full life with Ennis and share with him..so he went else where to get the missing peices filled in..
Sunflower79, i'll need to agree with you on this i'm gonna quote this parragraph of the ST
Measure the fu**in short leash you keep me on, and then ask me about Mexico and then tell you'll kill me for needin it and not hardly never gettin it. You got no fu**in idea how bad it gets. I'm not you....
by posting this i want to mean that Jack made clear Ennis that the other guys were just an object to him he was trying to get fullfill his sexual desire and that all he never mention anything about feelings. Jack was aware he was not doing it right but he was the emotive part on this relationship he was the one that was unable stand being without Ennis and was dying for him. Jack just looked at them as sexual object they were no names or person they were just that.
i think that mexico was jack's way to escape from his reality to be stuck on a marriage he never really wanted a life he was not pleased at all and his absence of Ennis. Jack hid himself on mexico as his own world to be outside his reality. I always wondered why he addressed Ennis to go with him on the last meeting but after thinking many times it could have beingt that he was trying to have Ennis out of the world he was afraid of and be with him out of their realities.
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I agree with Patriot1 about the sequence of events - it's difficult to know how long Jack had been acquinted with Randall, and Randall was the one who made the first move - by then I think Jack had been to Mexico, maybe more than once, and not found any satisfation in mindless f..cking. He had realised there was no possibility of Ennis's changing -when in the last scene together Ennis asks whether Jack has any better ideas ( than his working all the time) Jack replies, "I did once", indicating that he has already given up on his dreams of a life with Ennis. so if he's going to have any future other than more of Lureen, on whom he's also given up (" So far as our marriage goes, we could do it over the phone.") or more loveless trips to Mexico Randall is his only alternative. Perhaps he also hears "time's wined charriot rushing near" and thinks this is his last chance - whatever he did in Mexico was unlikely to lead to any permanent relationship.
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I don't really attach much siginificance to Mexico, nor the fact that it came after rushing to Ennis, nor to Randall... they were excerpts that showed parts of Jack's life - the only significance is that it was different from Ennis' life. Jack was more open, more social than Ennis...so naturally he had more experiences than Ennis. Whether there were a significant number was not told to us - just as we did not see if Ennis had such chances. To really know what went on we would have to have been there day by day. Ennis was Jack's big love...Jack was Ennis' big love. That is what is important to think is significant, not the little sidetrips that cause so much speculation.
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i think that mexico was jack's way to escape from his reality to be stuck on a marriage he never really wanted a life he was not pleased at all and his absence of Ennis. Jack hid himself on mexico as his own world to be outside his reality. I always wondered why he addressed Ennis to go with him on the last meeting but after thinking many times it could have beingt that he was trying to have Ennis out of the world he was afraid of and be with him out of their realities.
I do agree with you Carlos..that This was Jack's way of esaping realiting, being stuck in an loveless marriage, and wanting to be with Ennis so much it hurt when he couldn't be wtih him. He really loved and cared so much for Ennis that having that denied to him he was hurt and Mexico was his escpape to be with people only for sex and nothing else. Intereting point you brought up..
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i think that mexico was jack's way to escape from his reality to be stuck on a marriage he never really wanted a life he was not pleased at all and his absence of Ennis. Jack hid himself on mexico as his own world to be outside his reality. I always wondered why he addressed Ennis to go with him on the last meeting but after thinking many times it could have beingt that he was trying to have Ennis out of the world he was afraid of and be with him out of their realities.
I do agree with you Carlos..that This was Jack's way of esaping realiting, being stuck in an loveless marriage, and wanting to be with Ennis so much it hurt when he couldn't be wtih him. He really loved and cared so much for Ennis that having that denied to him he was hurt and Mexico was his escpape to be with people only for sex and nothing else. Intereting point you brought up..
Yes, an escape. And, on a very practical level, going to Mexico and having sex with a prostitute would be pretty safe--not from a biological standpoint, of course, but from a sociological standpoint. He was not going to cause gossip, rumors, etc., of the kind the finally (it seems) killed him.
Jack was able to go to Mexico and sort of let his guard down. Breathe a little easier, just for a few minutes.
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I read the scene as one of despair because Jack walked off with the Mexican into total darkness - it evokes ideas of nightm hell, nothingness. For me this represented the nadir of his ( sexual) life and a sort of betrayal of Ennis. Not his fault - he was evidently in total despair when he realised he'd entirely mistaken Ennis's motivation in letting him know about the divorce and had his hopes dashed again - i think for the last time, as this to me is the moment when he realises Ennis is never going to change. There's also the total contrast between the noisy, busy background of Mexico and the move into the dark, contrasted with the quiet and peace of BBM, and the way their affair moves from the near-dark of the tent out into the open air.