I wonder whether jack ever told that much to Ennis -- so technically, he was not lying if he never told him anything. :)TPE why you always broke may heart and bring me the tears!!!!!
Perhaps we should also consider the things Jack intentionally hid from Ennis.
Ennis's knowledge of the Mexico trips is quite ambiguous. Did Jack tell him about such trips before, or did Ennis just deduce Jack's trips from the comment in the last meeting? I would think the former is more likely.
I think that most of these things Jack kept hidden were of a transient sexual nature -- nothing like Jack actually getting deeply/romantically involved with another man. Even the affair with Randall was probably more for sexual gratification in the beginning (at least up until the last meeting).
Ennis is Jack's one great love. All else was of a purely physical need with no depth. When all hope for a shared life with Ennis was lost in the last meeting, it was only then that he probably considered someone else -- but death held that love pristine, mercifully. And perhaps Jack was only 'thinking out loud'. I canot imagine him ever forgetting Ennis, so long as he and Ennis lived.
- Going back to Aguirre to ask for a job (he didn't explain that the reason there was no job for him was because Aguirre caught them fooling around, and not because Ennis wasn't around)
/quote]I don't think this is exactly a "lie". Jack knew about Ennis' horror to be discovered and if he only could imagine that Aguirre had found out about their relationship, he may cut all contact with Jack. So Jack told him this "lie" first, to avoid Ennis know what Aguire had discovered and second, to make Ennis know he wouldn't go to Brokeback without him.
I don't think Jack lied about Mexico, I just think he never talked about it, though it's not clear from the movie or from the story...
Isn't it also interesting to note on this same topic that Jack lies much more about things than Ennis. I know it was mentioned in the first post here, but I find myself thinking of that sometimes. Ennis is pretty straightforward with Jack, with the exception of telling Jack that Alma knew what was up. Jack was hiding a lot, the ranch foreman's "wife", Aguirre encounter the following summer, stealing the shirt (which I don't mind that lie, it's a great source of material of the story obviously when we see how it ended up), Mexico, just so much. And I think Jack lies, not to be deceitful, but to protect Ennis and also not hurt Ennis. Just random thinking here :)
- Ranch foreman's "wife"
- Going back to Aguirre to ask for a job (he didn't explain that the reason there was no job for him was because Aguirre caught them fooling around, and not because Ennis wasn't around)
- Lying to Lureen about his real intentions of driving 14 hours 2-3 times a year (well, lying in general, and not necessarily to Ennis)
- Possibly lying about Mexico
Feel free to add to this list...
- Ranch foreman's "wife"
- Going back to Aguirre to ask for a job (he didn't explain that the reason there was no job for him was because Aguirre caught them fooling around, and not because Ennis wasn't around)
- Lying to Lureen about his real intentions of driving 14 hours 2-3 times a year (well, lying in general, and not necessarily to Ennis)
- Possibly lying about Mexico
Feel free to add to this list...
Thanks for the list, dirtbiker. The first one - Ranch foreman's "wife" got me thinking. Why did Jack need to mention "wife" and even lie about it? Is it because Ennis mentioned Cassie?
Patriot1, thanks. I know this OT. Why should Ennis be unhappy or mad? I will take a closer look next time.
The lie about ranch foreman's wife is the one I don't like the most from Jack.
- Ranch foreman's "wife"
- Going back to Aguirre to ask for a job (he didn't explain that the reason there was no job for him was because Aguirre caught them fooling around, and not because Ennis wasn't around)
- Lying to Lureen about his real intentions of driving 14 hours 2-3 times a year (well, lying in general, and not necessarily to Ennis)
- Possibly lying about Mexico
Feel free to add to this list...
Thanks for the list, dirtbiker. The first one - Ranch foreman's "wife" got me thinking. Why did Jack need to mention "wife" and even lie about it? Is it because Ennis mentioned Cassie?
I think he said the "wife" instead of the ranch foreman because he didn't want Ennis to think that he was cheating on another man. Cheating on a woman probably doesn't have the same meaning to Ennis.
I think he said the "wife" instead of the ranch foreman because he didn't want Ennis to think that he was cheating on another man. Cheating on a woman probably doesn't have the same meaning to Ennis.
Yes I agree. But Jack could have just said "no" when Ennis asked. Why even answered and lied about it?
I think he said the "wife" instead of the ranch foreman because he didn't want Ennis to think that he was cheating on another man. Cheating on a woman probably doesn't have the same meaning to Ennis.
Yes I agree. But Jack could have just said "no" when Ennis asked. Why even answered and lied about it?
That's true... *Ponders* Maybe he was trying to tell Ennis something. Maybe he wanted Ennis to figure out that he was unhappy with them rarely seeing each other and that he was resorting to desperate measures to keep himself sane.
Jack is following Ennis's lead here, as he often does. (He does so because he idollizes Ennis, and because Ennis controls the relationship.)
If Ennis tells a story about a waitress, Jack will follow with a story of a foreman's wife... Jack senses that Ennis will be most content if Jack is keeping up a heterosexual front.
But Jack is not that good at lying, and he's getting tired of it.
probably he was in his deep conscious about that relationship i mean they knew to well each other and he referred on the fight as guys like you so maybe he was sure that Jack can be able to do that. after all in Ennis mind he was no queer but we don't know his opinion about Jack. Don't get me wrong he never said what he thinks about him in that way.
probably he was in his deep conscious about that relationship i mean they knew to well each other and he referred on the fight as guys like you so maybe he was sure that Jack can be able to do that. after all in Ennis mind he was no queer but we don't know his opinion about Jack. Don't get me wrong he never said what he thinks about him in that way.
Yes, I think in the end, they knew each other without even speaking things out loud.
All the things left unsaid..it weighed down all to heavily on both of them, and yet I sense that they had to verbalize it somehow, if their love was to live...
You all forgot about the shirts! Ennis complains that he can't believe he lost his shirt on the mountain, and Jack says nothing!
Jack is following Ennis's lead here, as he often does. (He does so because he idollizes Ennis, and because Ennis controls the relationship.)
If Ennis tells a story about a waitress, Jack will follow with a story of a foreman's wife... Jack senses that Ennis will be most content if Jack is keeping up a heterosexual front.
But Jack is not that good at lying, and he's getting tired of it.
Ennis wants Jack to appear normal in every way so there is no chance of anyone suspecting. Wife, kid(s) etc. You notice Ennis has asked Jack two times if his relationship is "normal" with Laureen.(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe359%2FPatriotOne%2FOffTopic113.gif&hash=844598338f732a85175968d8221e334b10343fe7)
Ennis wants Jack to appear normal in every way so there is no chance of anyone suspecting. Wife, kid(s) etc. You notice Ennis has asked Jack two times if his relationship is "normal" with Laureen.(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe359%2FPatriotOne%2FOffTopic113.gif&hash=844598338f732a85175968d8221e334b10343fe7)
I think another time Jack lies is when Ennis and Jack are by the river (immediately after the Thanksgiving scenes) and Ennis asks Jack if it's "normal" with Lureen (I took this as Ennis asking Jack if he and Lureen had sex regularly). Jack has a pensive look on his face, shrugs and says "sure." Now, I am betting from the look on Jack's face that his sex life with Lureen was pretty much dead. I think he lies and tells Ennis everything is okay to keep up the "heterosexual men with a secret" front. Jack knows that as long as he and Ennis keep up the pretense that they are just het buddies who happen to get physical once or twice a year, Ennis can handle it (Ennis has that low startle point). But if Jack starts admitting he and Lureen don't have sex and, later, that he is sleeping with another man, then Whoa! Ennis will be forced to face the truth. Jack knows that if Ennis is ever forced to face the truth (that they are gay men who are deeply in love with one another), Ennis may not be able to handle it.
Quoting stacp:
"Jack knows that as long as he and Ennis keep up the pretense that they are just het buddies who happen to get physical once or twice a year, Ennis can handle it (Ennis has that low startle point)."
Umm, what are "het buddies"?
Quoting again:
"But if Jack starts admitting he and Lureen don't have sex and, later, that he is sleeping with another man, then Whoa! Ennis will be forced to face the truth. Jack knows that if Ennis is ever forced to face the truth (that they are gay men who are deeply in love with one another), Ennis may not be able to handle it."
Jack to Ennis: YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!
Ooops! wrong movie......
And, on a more serious, note, as I get to know these characters better.... I'm sorry to say that
Jack. is. a. liar.
He lies all the time to try to please Ennis, to fit into what he thinks Ennis wants to hear. He lies in every detail to Lureen--he's living a lie, as they say--and he lies to his parents, telling them that he and Ennis (or he and Randall) are going to come live up there. Think about it: of course Jack wanted to have Ennis come live with him, but Ennis NEVER held him under any pretences. So what right did he have saying Ennis would come live up there? or Randall, as far as we know?
He keeps Mexico a secret until the time he thinks it will hurt Ennis the most. If you go to the short story, he lies to Ennis in the motel, saying he doesn't think about doing it with another guy, while he has in fact been "riding more than bulls."
Sorry, folks. I understand there are reasons here. Just thought it was time to clear the air. Ennis lies to himself. Jack lies to the world.
*hides head from the rain of blows to follow*
Hey, Edgar. "Het buddies" is short for heterosexual buddies. I'm not sure I agree that Jack keeps Mexico a secret until the time he thinks it will hurt Ennis the most. I agree that Jack kept this from Ennis and in that sense, he lied about it. But, to Jack, I'm not sure if he thought about it as lying as opposed to just sparing Ennis' feelings. A fine line indeed, but I don't think Jack had a devious mentality about it. I think that at the end, during the last confrontation, Jack is just fed up. He has realized Ennis will never come around, they will never have a life together or even be together. After twenty years of living a lie (not being true to themselves), he's had enough. It is reaching a head, and he has to let it out (kind of like Alma did at Thanksgiving). He'll say it "just once." What is he saying? The truth, and the truth sometimes hurts, but it has to be said if there is to be any hope of movement in a relationship or even individually. Did he know the knowledge about Mexico would hurt Ennis? Yes, I'm sure. Ennis sure thought he owned Jack's ass. But I honestly don't think Jack waited to twist knife into Ennis. Ennis asked the question, and Jack was ready to let it all come out, come hell or high water. IMO. :)
Hey, Edgar. "Het buddies" is short for heterosexual buddies. I'm not sure I agree that Jack keeps Mexico a secret until the time he thinks it will hurt Ennis the most. I agree that Jack kept this from Ennis and in that sense, he lied about it. But, to Jack, I'm not sure if he thought about it as lying as opposed to just sparing Ennis' feelings. A fine line indeed, but I don't think Jack had a devious mentality about it. I think that at the end, during the last confrontation, Jack is just fed up. He has realized Ennis will never come around, they will never have a life together or even be together. After twenty years of living a lie (not being true to themselves), he's had enough. It is reaching a head, and he has to let it out (kind of like Alma did at Thanksgiving). He'll say it "just once." What is he saying? The truth, and the truth sometimes hurts, but it has to be said if there is to be any hope of movement in a relationship or even individually. Did he know the knowledge about Mexico would hurt Ennis? Yes, I'm sure. Ennis sure thought he owned Jack's ass. But I honestly don't think Jack waited to twist knife into Ennis. Ennis asked the question, and Jack was ready to let it all come out, come hell or high water. IMO. :)
Great observation. Neither of these men are evil or devious, they are just trying to survive and live with what they have. While the scene may imply that Jack gives up on Ennis I can never accept that. He is too much in love and will stay that way for ever. And I believe Ennis would have come around some day too had not Jack been killed. Sorry, but I just can't accept negatives in life, I will always look for hope.
[Great observation. Neither of these men are evil or devious, they are just trying to survive and live with what they have. While the scene may imply that Jack gives up on Ennis I can never accept that. He is too much in love and will stay that way for ever. And I believe Ennis would have come around some day too had not Jack been killed. Sorry, but I just can't accept negatives in life, I will always look for hope.
Patriot1, thanks. I know this OT. Why should Ennis be unhappy or mad? I will take a closer look next time.
The lie about ranch foreman's wife is the one I don't like the most from Jack.
Ennis wants Jack to appear normal in every way so there is no chance of anyone suspecting. Wife, kid(s) etc. You notice Ennis has asked Jack two times if his relationship is "normal" with Laureen. It seems to be a big concern to him. I believe that is why he was crying at his own divorce. He could no longer appear to be "normal" with a wife and kids.
Yes, that lie hurts the most, I believe, because we know it isn't the wife but the husband and that is the man that is going to take Jack away.(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe359%2FPatriotOne%2FOffTopic113.gif&hash=844598338f732a85175968d8221e334b10343fe7)
One other thing that occurred to me about Ennis and his questions about Jack's marriage. I don't think Ennis' question was strictly because he was worried about other people finding out about him and Jack.
In their reunion scene up on the mountain, Ennis tells Jack they can't be together because he (Ennis) had built up a life with Alma and Jack had a wife and a baby in Childress.
Ennis tried hard to stay married to Alma (even though he wanted Jack) and he also really didn't want to be responsible for Jack's divorce (even though Jack was willing) Ennis always wanted to do the right thing and in his mind divorce was wrong. He felt bad about his divorce and he would have also felt guilty for causing Jack to Lureen.
Jack tells lies for the same reason that most people do - to avoid difficult topics or situations, to try to avoid upsetting people, to make his own life easier, to make himslef look better. Given the infrequency of their meetings and the prolems inherent in their relationship, it's not surprising he tells lies
Somtimes not saying anything could be thought of lying too . Jack never told Ennis about Aguirre spying on them,maybe to spare Ennis more paranoid bouts?
And what relationship worth its salt has'nt endured a " little white lie" to spare the other's feelings at one time or another?
"Me neither" as a response to "I ain't queer" isn't so much a little white lie, though; it denies something fundamental to the relationship. Jack says it because he knows if he says anything else, ennis will shy away from him. But by saying it he essentially allows Ennis to go on thinking he's "normal" ie not "queer", and go on with his impossible attempt to square the circle.
"Me neither" as a response to "I ain't queer" isn't so much a little white lie, though; it denies something fundamental to the relationship. Jack says it because he knows if he says anything else, ennis will shy away from him. But by saying it he essentially allows Ennis to go on thinking he's "normal" ie not "queer", and go on with his impossible attempt to square the circle.
You have to remember this was 1963 Wyoming.
The US Supreme Court Ruled that sodomy laws (i.e., homosexuality) was unconstitutional on June 26, 2003.
In Wyoming in 1963 sodomy (between man/woman and/or man/man) was AGAINST THE LAW and punishable by fines and/or imprisonment. The Wyoming law against sodomy was repealed in 1977.
From the short story: "Like vast clouds of steam from thermal springs in winter the years of things unsaid and now unsayable-admissions, declarations, shames, guilts, fears-rose around them.... and somehow, as a coat hanger is straightened to open a locked car and then bent again to its original shape, they torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they'd said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."
Dear God there are times I can't stand the pain of it. :\'(
Interesting thoughts, tpe, and I agree with you there. :)
I think it was in part that his time with Jack on Brokeback was too private, too sacrosanct for him to speak of it to anyone, especially Alma.
And as you said, where would the questions lead if he admitted where he knew Jack from? Wouldn't she wonder, since they married shortly after he came down from Brokeback, why he'd never before mentioned the name of the man he had spent the summer working with? That alone might have had her curious immediately. :-\\ He must have deliberately kept any details of that summer job from Alma all those years. Safer now to say "fishing buddy", I would think.
By contrast, and maybe later, Jack tells Lureen about Brokeback Mountain. He has to come up with some story to explain his times away, I guess, though going to see his parents would have covered it - Lureen never meets them so there'd be no chance of her finding out that when he was away he hadn't spent as long with them as he said - so he uses the same cover story as Ennis does, but Jack also says he wants his ashes scattered on BBM, which is a way of indicating that it's a special place for him. Other than letting her n=know what the relationship is between himself and Ennis, Jack comes nearer telling her the truth than Ennis does with Alma. In both cases, what they say or don't say is true to character.
I suppose it was Ennis who told the bigger truth when he said to Lureen, "We used to work up in Brokeback one summer." Perhaps that was a big enough hint to Lureen, if she was able to pick up the clues,, about the relationship Jack and Ennis maintained. About why this "pretend place" was the happiest place on Earth for Jack. It might also provide a reason for why she said, "about the ashes, I mean." to Ennis. She knew he dreamed of being up in Brokeback, and this call from Ennis gave her sufficient evidence to assume Jack really wanted to be with his fishing buddy, even after his passing. :f)By contrast, and maybe later, Jack tells Lureen about Brokeback Mountain. He has to come up with some story to explain his times away, I guess, though going to see his parents would have covered it - Lureen never meets them so there'd be no chance of her finding out that when he was away he hadn't spent as long with them as he said - so he uses the same cover story as Ennis does, but Jack also says he wants his ashes scattered on BBM, which is a way of indicating that it's a special place for him. Other than letting her n=know what the relationship is between himself and Ennis, Jack comes nearer telling her the truth than Ennis does with Alma. In both cases, what they say or don't say is true to character.
It is indeed interesting to note that Jack mentioned Brokeback to Lureen -- but he probably never associated it in LUreen's mind with the fishing buddy. It is interesting -- but entirely consistent -- that Lureen did not ask further questions about Brokeback Mountain to Jack, and assumed that it was some pretend place. It is entirely consistent with her character: to let such personal details go unexplained and concentrate on the family business.
I suppose it was Ennis who told the bigger truth when he said to Lureen, "We used to work up in Brokeback one summer." Perhaps that was a big enough hint to Lureen, if she was able to pick up the clues,, about the relationship Jack and Ennis maintained. About why this "pretend place" was the happiest place on Earth for Jack. It might also provide a reason for why she said, "about the ashes, I mean." to Ennis. She knew he dreamed of being up in Brokeback, and this call from Ennis gave her sufficient evidence to assume Jack really wanted to be with his fishing buddy, even after his passing. :f)
I'm likely im camp alone on this but I believed it was the ranch formans wife. Movie Jack, very striking would always get the attention of the ladies, he would not have started it. Maybe LeShaun, maybe not. i just don't think Jack would lie to Ennis.
I'm likely im camp alone on this but I believed it was the ranch formans wife. Movie Jack, very striking would always get the attention of the ladies, he would not have started it. Maybe LeShaun, maybe not. i just don't think Jack would lie to Ennis.
I'm likely im camp alone on this but I believed it was the ranch formans wife. Movie Jack, very striking would always get the attention of the ladies, he would not have started it. Maybe LeShaun, maybe not. i just don't think Jack would lie to Ennis.
Ennis: Two guy`s living together? No way!
Hey, and what is with Jim Newton and Pete Wilkey from the “Broken Wheel Ranch”?
Fury the black mustang, you remember?
Two guy´s and a ranch, they even got a kid (Joey)
And nobody had a bad thought obout it.
Ennis: Two guy`s living together? No way!interesting .. I think for Ennis though it would be the perceived bad thoughts that would bother him whether actual or not. And seems that his only frame of reference for two men ranching up together didn't end so well. We never hear either of them offer up an example that ended well, at least.
Hey, and what is with Jim Newton and Pete Wilkey from the “Broken Wheel Ranch”?
Fury the black mustang, you remember?
Two guy´s and a ranch, they even got a kid (Joey)
And nobody had a bad thought obout it.
My thougt is, Ennis was wrong.
There was a way
But Ennis was to scared from the things he saw as he was 9
But there was a way.
Two guys livin together, have a ranch – it could have worked
Sorry for my bad english – I am just a stupid german girl, but I hope you understands my posts
I try my best to translate in english what I think in german.
Agreed. I think that Ennis would keep things just as they were with Jack. The 'impossibility' wou;ld be for the two of them to live together. He knew he couldn't 'fix' it, so he was 'standin it'--and for as long as he could ride it.
I still don't get a strong handle on what John Twist told Ennis. The more I think about it, though, I see how Jack really may have spoke of moving up there with Randall--to his father.
I used to think that Mr twist made that up to hurt Ennis--out of his own anger and bitterness of their relationship.
Hmmmmm--need to think on this some more. Thanx.
I do;now whether we've said this before, but from the moment of her seeing the reunion kiss, Alma lives a lie - she never confronts Ennis, never tells him what she saw, pretends they're a normal couple. In essence she acts a lie too - trying to get Ennis to go to the church social with her and so on.
To Ennis, Jack cheating with a woman is not as bad because it's more normal. But when he sleeps with other men, that's when Ennis has a problem because, to him it's not normal (and he's scared it will get Jack killed).
The answer is different, for me, depending on if you refer to the book or the movie. Ennis were almost different characters in each incarnation. At the core, however, Ennis was in deep denial about his sexuality. Somehow, he'd convinced himself that Jack was it. And in a certain respect, it's true. Jack was the only one for him. He was so withdrawn and so taciturn that he didn't mix socially unless someone reeled him in, i.e. Alma, Jack, Cassie, Junior. Jack was more extroverted and more accepting of who he was and what he needed. And since he was more social, he needed more social life. So Jack's lies, to me, all boiled down to one motivation: save Ennis' ego and protect his sense of self. So Jack lies about Aguirre so Ennis doesn't freak out about people thinking he's "queer". He lies about Randall's "wife" so that Ennis doesn't freak out and think Jack (and by extension he) are "queer". He doesn't tell him about Mexico and the fact that he'd "ridden more than bulls, and not rolled his own" for the same reason. If Ennis thinks Jack is full on gay, then what does that say about Ennis? To me, Jack lied to protect Ennis from his own homophobia and fears.
The answer is different, for me, depending on if you refer to the book or the movie. Ennis were almost different characters in each incarnation. At the core, however, Ennis was in deep denial about his sexuality. Somehow, he'd convinced himself that Jack was it. And in a certain respect, it's true. Jack was the only one for him. He was so withdrawn and so taciturn that he didn't mix socially unless someone reeled him in, i.e. Alma, Jack, Cassie, Junior. Jack was more extroverted and more accepting of who he was and what he needed. And since he was more social, he needed more social life. So Jack's lies, to me, all boiled down to one motivation: save Ennis' ego and protect his sense of self. So Jack lies about Aguirre so Ennis doesn't freak out about people thinking he's "queer". He lies about Randall's "wife" so that Ennis doesn't freak out and think Jack (and by extension he) are "queer". He doesn't tell him about Mexico and the fact that he'd "ridden more than bulls, and not rolled his own" for the same reason. If Ennis thinks Jack is full on gay, then what does that say about Ennis? To me, Jack lied to protect Ennis from his own homophobia and fears.
Indeed, Ennis is so introverted that he can do with a couple high altitude f@##$ks a few times a year.
In the movie version, when he's dropped to his knees and crying on Jack's shoulder, he says "I can't stand it anymore." His constant refrain is "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it." So he's saying he can't stand it anymore. So is that his way of saying that he can't survive on the couple of high altitude Fs anymore either? Could be.
In the movie version, when he's dropped to his knees and crying on Jack's shoulder, he says "I can't stand it anymore." His constant refrain is "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it." So he's saying he can't stand it anymore. So is that his way of saying that he can't survive on the couple of high altitude Fs anymore either? Could be.
In the movie version, when he's dropped to his knees and crying on Jack's shoulder, he says "I can't stand it anymore." His constant refrain is "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it." So he's saying he can't stand it anymore. So is that his way of saying that he can't survive on the couple of high altitude Fs anymore either? Could be.
"Ennis was trapped in a prison of his own making, the fear from his childhood and social bigotry, the pride from his pa's upbringing, his own love for a man that seemed out of his reach by social mores and social station, his love for the children that he could no longer support, his regrets for not holding on to Jack twenty years ago. All those fears and regrets, all the hope and dreams, all smashed together, and brought him to his knees."
Good read here Lance. How many of us are in the prisons of our own makin for some of the very same reasons. These things that shape our lives and leave us with regrets. Why their story is so much my/our story?
One lie gives birth to 1000 others...
Those are the quintessential questions of religion, of philosophy, of art, Ranchand. :clap: They are the foundations of great art, and why we love Brokeback Mountains so much. The movie touches on those very questions, and offers shadows of answers to the questions of our lives. PBS is the continuing journey, the quest, to grasp those answers, really, firmly, emotionally.
I am glad to have you all for my fellowship on this quest.
The question of lies in BBM are not a quantitative,but a qualitative subject.It's to say,no matter how many lies were told,because as a matter of fact,all their lives were a great lie in themselves.They,specially Ennis,did the worst thing than a person can do; lie to oneself.They were pretending during all their lives that they could "disguise" as a friendship what was a real love; and,what is worse,they ended believing it inside themselves.They were pretending that they could live as two "normal" men with family and siblings and play the role of gay lover one or twice times a year.They were pretending they could stand this situation because it was what people expected from them; and in the end,both of them could stand nothing of all this... :-\\
The question of lies in BBM are not a quantitative,but a qualitative subject.It's to say,no matter how many lies were told,because as a matter of fact,all their lives were a great lie in themselves.They,specially Ennis,did the worst thing than a person can do; lie to oneself.They were pretending during all their lives that they could "disguise" as a friendship what was a real love; and,what is worse,they ended believing it inside themselves.They were pretending that they could live as two "normal" men with family and siblings and play the role of gay lover one or twice times a year.They were pretending they could stand this situation because it was what people expected from them; and in the end,both of them could stand nothing of all this... :-\\
At the heart of the lie is the deep desire to conform -- to be ordinary... to live a life of happiness as other people try to do. At the heart of the lie is a realization that in the larger world. appearances had to be maintained, even at the cost of one's true feelings.
Pretence.
I have to admit that I haven't follow the discussion entirely, but... when I saw the title of the thread:
How many lies were told?...
... it occurred to me that it was more avoiding the truth, keeping the most important things inside, that telling lies... :-\\
Sorry if I just jumped in without previous introduction to the matter, but well... just a thought. :i
Welcome to the discussion, loreen.
Some lies are omissions of the truth. Don't Ask Don't Tell was not about lying, but it turned into that when the omission of the truth forced people to lie about who they are, what they do.
Ennis, as you said, was also about avoiding to face the truth, that his relationship with Jack was that of a gay man in love.
"The friendship that became a secret" became "the lies that have to be told", to cover up the truth that he could not face.
I wonder how much of Ennis' lies come from desire, and how much come from fear.
His homophobia stems from the fear of being smashed with a tire iron. He didn't care much about appearances or conforming. If he did, he would have married Cassie. If he did, he would have initiated their relationship and pursued Cassie. Ennis was proud, but that was the extent of what he thought of other people's opinions of him.
The fear of violence also stems from KD's bullying him, as told in the short story. He could fight back against KD but he couldn't fight against the world, so he gotta just stand it.
I don't see any of this deep desire that you speak of. I see only fear created by violent oppression.
Just my cents, for what's it worth.
Welcome to the discussion, loreen.
Some lies are omissions of the truth. Don't Ask Don't Tell was not about lying, but it turned into that when the omission of the truth forced people to lie about who they are, what they do.
Ennis, as you said, was also about avoiding to face the truth, that his relationship with Jack was that of a gay man in love.
"The friendship that became a secret" became "the lies that have to be told", to cover up the truth that he could not face.
Living the lie is of course not always "active" -- as you pointed out, it can be in the "passive" mode. To not recognize something so fundamental to oneself is certainly living a lie, IMO.
Is self delusion equivalent to a lie?
YUP! It's lying to oneself, and that's what society has forced on us in many ways, not just in terms of sexuality, but also in terms of what is important in life, like material things, or looks or whatever ways people keep score.
One of the great Buddhist insight is that a lot of what we call real life is made up of illusions, or lies if you will.
Ennis bought in on the lie of homophobia, that being gay is bad.
Loreen (Jack's wife :) ) bought in on the lie that material things mean success, that being rich is really important.
In the end, Ennis lost his love, and Loreen lost hers. I think Jack was giving his marriage an honest try until he just couldn't stomach the treatment he got from Old man Newsome, and his wife's tacit complacent agreement with his view of his being a lesser person for lack of material wealth.
What made Jack special was his determination to stand up to these lies, to homophobia and to grass materialism.
To Jack, love was the truth that made sense of everything else.
YUP! It's lying to oneself, and that's what society has forced on us in many ways, not just in terms of sexuality, but also in terms of what is important in life, like material things, or looks or whatever ways people keep score.
One of the great Buddhist insight is that a lot of what we call real life is made up of illusions, or lies if you will.
Ennis bought in on the lie of homophobia, that being gay is bad.
Loreen (Jack's wife :) ) bought in on the lie that material things mean success, that being rich is really important.
In the end, Ennis lost his love, and Loreen lost hers. I think Jack was giving his marriage an honest try until he just couldn't stomach the treatment he got from Old man Newsome, and his wife's tacit complacent agreement with his view of his being a lesser person for lack of material wealth.
What made Jack special was his determination to stand up to these lies, to homophobia and to grass materialism.
To Jack, love was the truth that made sense of everything else.
Beautifully said, lance! The veneer of "reality" that covers (or seeks to cover) so many lies proves to be the undoing of so many people...
Lance,
I agree that it is the society that sometimes forces us to accept something that we personally don't cherish at all. We have all been there, and as much as I personally try to avoid it, I found myself several times falling down to the mud of the rotten society rules... (later you can not wash the mud out easily.) >:(
What I don't agree with you is that Lureen thought of Jack to be a lesser person for any reason. She hated other treated him that way (it was obvious in few scenes), but she was part of that society, which she couldn't avoid. She wasn't able to stand up for him, for she was a woman... I resent her a lack of feelings for him, but the same as Jack, she did her best in the circumstances of the society and her own capability of loving someone.
Also, Jack was a good husband and a father, but he would've dump both his wife and son for Ennis any moment Ennis agreed to be with him... unfortunately he never did. What I mean, that it wasn't LD or Lureen's fault of their poor marriage so much as it was his longing for Ennis which never found it's way to the "sweet life".
Finally, the red words are so true! My Jack! <^(
If there were any lies told between Ennis and Jack, it certainly wasn't on the level of sophistication that we associate with conscious self-deception. I do think that for all their emotional and psychological complexity, Ennis and Jack were fairly simple people -- especially in the matter of love (and hate.) Any self-deception on their part wasn't something self-conscious and self-convoluted. The best way to read it is this: that from very simple intentions, serious complications can arise purely from honest misunderstanding, or the desire not to hurt someone.
Lies are never simple. Every lie is a thread in a tangled web we weave. Ennis may be simple, but society is not. Homophobia forces the simple man to adapt, to wear a mask and lead a double life. His simplicity and guilelessness is the reason for his pain and suffering. A smarter man would find ways to lie, to pretend, and be financially successful, and be happy with a wife and kids, and be free to spend more time with Jack. His powerlessness was the root of his pain and suffering. Ennis' self-deception was the one every gay man experienced at some point in their coming out. "I ain't queer." Fortunate is the generation when being gay ain't perceived as bad, as horrible, as something we need to hide and deny. From that one simple lie, the tangled web of other lies spring forth to trap Ennis into powerlessness.
I don't see the desire to not hurt someone. I see Ennis and Jack trying to keep others from hurting them. Their lies hurt their respective spouses.
It is interesting to note, that of all the relationships in the movie, the best ones are those between Jack's Ma and Jack, between Junior and Ennis, between Jack's Ma and Ennis, when the truth of the way they are, is accepted. The lies we have to tell...aren't. The irony is that telling lies actually made matters worse. Ennis would have been happier if he told Alma the truth after that first summer. Jack would have been happier if he told Ennis the truth, about his feelings, the shirts, before coming down the mountain. Alma would have been happier if she told Ennis the truth about witnessing the kiss. Loreen would have been happier if she told off Old Man Newsome about how she felt, instead of accepting the bullying of her husband in silence.
True, the consequences of telling the truth in each of these circumstances also carry certain painful repercussions. Ennis may have been ostracized in Wyoming, but like he said in the short story, he could move to Denver or some big city. Alma would have to either accept Jack into the family or divorce Ennis earlier. With her smarts, she could still land on her feet no matter what. Loreen may feel standing up to the old man would result in losing her financial standing. That's an understandable reason for submission, especially with Bobby in tow. Her role was heartbreaking and difficult. Hathaway did a great job portraying it. That scene with Ennis on the phone was Academy Award worthy. All the lies we told...revealed in that moment when Ennis said, we herded sheep together one summer.
This is a good distinction that you make. From simple lies come forth great tragedies. Artists (dramatists in particular) have long known this. For some of them, they would call it the machinations of fate. But for others, they explicitly acknowledge that certain things, simply and innocently started, get a life of theri own once they are let loose. And it magnifies beyond anyone's control. This is the genesis of true tragedy.
The most excellent example is to be found in the Bard's "King Lear". To Lear's question, Cordelia answers that most dissembling of lies: "NOTHING". From this one simple word is born the great tragedy that engulfs them all.
Shakespeare understood life. Othello also had Iago telling a simple lie to lead his captain down the path of self-undoing. Cassius told a simple lie to turn Brutus into betraying his friend. We all know someone who gossip and spread lies. Washington is full of them.
It is sad, that people continue to be drawn willingly into the whirlpools of lies, by not examining what they hear, what they see. If Ennis for once, re-examined the homophobia from his childhood, re-examined the social landscape of his surroundings, not just in Riverton, but further away, say Denver, then he would see that a sweet life with Jack was indeed possible. It was his acceptance of the deceptively authoritative hatred from his father that led him to a tragic end.
A lie is nothing when confronted in the cold light of truth. A lie's power lays in hiding, compartmentalizing the truth.
Once freed from artificial boundaries, truth overpowers lies, every time.
Truth may not come easy -- and there are certainly dire consequences. But I do agree that it opens the door to possibilities, even as it closes others.
Truth is easy, AND hard. To Jack, the truth of his love for Ennis was a force of nature and irresistible; to Ennis, the truth of his love for Jack was plagued with bigotry, misconceptions, confusion, and surrounded by a wall of HIS OWN doing.
Lies feeds on self-delusions, and trusting others who lie to themselves. All lies come first from self-delusions. That's the Buddhist teaching. To change oneself is both easy AND hard.
It took Ennis a life-time, and a split-second after finding the two shirts, to knock down the fortress that trapped him from Jack.
It can be said, if there was a moment of satori for Ennis, it was in the closet, embracing the two shirts.
I see Ennis in the movie given a chain of awakening, from the collapse in the final confrontation, to the revelation by Cassie at the diner, and finally the discovery in the closet, all of which led Ennis up the rickety staircase with its own rhythm to the satori that freed him from the lies of his father, of society, of his own doing.
Thanks, tpe. These recent discussions are helping me to come to terms with my own satori/epiphany last December.
And thanks just a powerful image -- up the rickety stairs of discovery!
What did he anticipate finding? Or did he anticipate anything? Was he perhaps anticipating things kept hidden from him by Jack? Somehow, I don't think he did...
Yes, I think that Jack understood that to admit to a more sustained relationship with another man would hurt Ennis. I think that Jack himself probably felt ambivalent about his relationship with Randall -- at least, before the Last Confrontation. Why did he pursue it then? I think it was because of the growing uncertainly of ever getting Ennis to commit to a Sweet Life. Ennis just had to say "yes" and everything else would not have mattered an iota to Jack. Perhaps Jack "justified" the "lie" by his realization that on the scale of his affections, nothing else would come in the way of his love for Ennis, even as he grew increasingly frustrated of what he thought was Ennis's refusal to take their love to the next level.
The "lie" I refer to here is Jack's statement about the ranch foreman's wife.
Some people have of course said that perhaps Jack did indeed have an affair with Randall's wife -- in part, to cover up his relationship with Randall. But for me, it is a classic case of gender inversion or transposition in the manner of Proust -- inverting the gender of the supposed lover to cover up the true nature of the relationship. Whatever the intention, we see in that part of the scene what I think is a veiled and indirect admission by Jack to Ennis that his relationship with Randall was rooted in his loneliness.
Tell you what . . . Truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.
I think it is a lot simpler than that.
I think Jack wanted to tell Ennis, to say I need you so much I'd settle for a substitute, this fella as reticent as you, but changed his mind at the last minute, because he was afraid Ennis may not take it too kindly. Jack's instincts were proven right in the last confrontation. Ennis may not admit to being queer, but he was mighty jealous sharing Jack with another man.
But do you think that he actually had an affair with Lashawn? Or was Jack in fact making a veiled reference to his relationship with Randall?
I've always wondered about this scene.
I don't think Jack is capable of having an affair with Lashawn. Just my own opinion.
We don't know too much about Randall and Lashawn. The deleted scene shows Randall meeting with Jack. Randall also talked about going up to the cabin, but that may be just good neighbourly talk, since Jack helped them out of a jam. It's not a good idea to read too much into a tiny incident. Then again, back in those days of swinging 70s and 80's, many straight couples subscribe to the idea of threesomes, so it's not out of the question for Jack to get involved with Randall AND LaShawn. FanFic material abounds here.
Personally, I don't find that avenue worth exploring. But feel free to dive in.
;D What an interesting thing to bring up, lance! Yes, I am not so sure if THAT avenue is worth exploring any further. But I do find the suggestion QUITE interesting!
I lean the same way -- that jack was perhaps not capable of having an affair with Lashawn. Still, it would have provided a conveninet cover. But THAT must have been too much work! And what would Randall have thought, had he found out or known about it?
You all inspire me. These possibilities just present themselves when I click Reply.
Like I said, I don't find that avenue worth exploring, but I won't set up any road blocks to stop others.
Well, the relationship between Lashawn, Randall, and Jack remains as tricky as it is murky. For me, this is one of the big question marks of the plot. Quite mysterious and tantalizing.
I believe the scene with Jack and Randall at the gas station was deleted with the very intention to leave their relationship ambiguous, as it is in the short story.
Sometimes, less is more. Brokeback Mountains has shown that to great effects.
About Jack's relationship with Randall though, remember what John Twist told Ennis about how Jack had recently mentioned bringing this other guy from Texas after all these years of talking about bringing Ennis Del Mar. This heavily implies that it was indeed Randall, not LaShawn that Jack was having the affair with. I honestly don't really think there's much of a question about the person Jack was really seeing in Texas. I do believe that was definitely a lie on Jack's part that he was having an affair with the "foreman's wife", even the way he says it you can tell he's lying. He obviously didn't want Ennis to know that he's been seeing another man, because that would hurt Ennis very much. I don't think the whole Randall thing is meant to be as mysterious as it seems, I think it's pretty straightforward.
And Ennis truly did lie to himself when he married Alma. In the short story, he even flat-out tells Jack that he'd known he should have never let him drive away that last day. He was lying to himself by going on and marrying Alma and pretending to be something he isn't but he truly felt he had no other choice. He knew he would be miserable living that lie, but what else could he do? It was the only safe way in his mind.
And definitely Ennis's "fishing buddy" story, which obviously didn't do much good since Alma saw from the first day what was really going on there. Ennis was naive to think that Alma actually bought that story all those years. He was so careless about hiding his relationship with Jack from her, that she would have had to have been deaf and blind to not know what was going on with him and Jack.
Exactly. And I do believe that it was the right choice. In the case of BBM, less is indeed more!
***
What it amounts to, I guess, is my sympathy to Ennis and the rest, when they are faced with a more difficult decision than other gay men, who have no ambiguous feelings at all.
Having said that, I still think it was lie, when Ennis told Alma that Jack was just a fishing buddy. :f)
"You don't go up there to fish, Ennis."
I'm glad that scene wasn't in the movie too, but I kind of think maybe it would have been interesting to see a little more of Jack & Randall like they did with Ennis & Cassie. Not anything real sexual (ick, I just can't go there) but maybe just more interacting among the 2 men to see more of what their thing was about? I go back and forth with this way of thinking. Sometimes I just want to block Randall out completely :-\\
About Jack's relationship with Randall though, remember what John Twist told Ennis about how Jack had recently mentioned bringing this other guy from Texas after all these years of talking about bringing Ennis Del Mar. This heavily implies that it was indeed Randall, not LaShawn that Jack was having the affair with. I honestly don't really think there's much of a question about the person Jack was really seeing in Texas. I do believe that was definitely a lie on Jack's part that he was having an affair with the "foreman's wife", even the way he says it you can tell he's lying. He obviously didn't want Ennis to know that he's been seeing another man, because that would hurt Ennis very much. I don't think the whole Randall thing is meant to be as mysterious as it seems, I think it's pretty straightforward. And Ennis truly did lie to himself when he married Alma. In the short story, he even flat-out tells Jack that he'd known he should have never let him drive away that last day. He was lying to himself by going on and marrying Alma and pretending to be something he isn't but he truly felt he had no other choice. He knew he would be miserable living that lie, but what else could he do? It was the only safe way in his mind. And definitely Ennis's "fishing buddy" story, which obviously didn't do much good since Alma saw from the first day what was really going on there. Ennis was naive to think that Alma actually bought that story all those years. He was so careless about hiding his relationship with Jack from her, that she would have had to have been deaf and blind to not know what was going on with him and Jack.
I agree. In spite of the lie, Ennis (for me) remains a very sympathetic figure on this regard. I recall the Blake adage that goes: "A truth that's said with bad intent | beats all the lies you can invent." Although it is very possible that part of Ennis's motivation was selfish, I also can't help thinking that for his at that moment, the truth was just too difficult to deal with with Alma in the mix.
To see a world in a grain of sand,
And a heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
And eternity in an hour.
A robin redbreast in a cage
Puts all heaven in a rage.
...
Joy and woe are woven fine,
A clothing for the soul divine.
Under every grief and pine
Runs a joy with silken twine.
Well, personally, I do feel that it was indeed Randall, although there is really nothing really definitive in the final cut of the movie. There is a strong suggestion -- but a suggestion, nonetheless.
As far as "mystery" is concerned, the fact that we know almost nothing about the relationship between Randall and Jack is mystery enough for me... Remember that in the final cut of the movie, we don't even know if he figured in Jack's death...
I agree. And I agree too with your former post,when you said that not developing the possible relationship between Jack and Randall,deepens the mystery surrounding the older Jack...Letting aside the fact that surely script writers didn't want to show it too clearly for maybe a "romantic" reason-Randall isn't a figure who many Brokies emphatyse with as to see him making love to Jack...-; the mystery of their relationship and of his character himself creates a greater number of questions to ask around Jack's life and death,the future of his relationship with Ennis,his own feelings,and so on.I don't think this has happenned by chance.Yes, so much mystery makes you go over & over things in your mind.. all the what if's and different scenarios in so many parts of the movie. thus makes brokeback mountain so wonderful and truly a classic in every shape and form.
I'm not sure which lie you refer to here. If you are referring to the lie about Jack being a fishing buddy, then I disagree.
I believe Ennis should have told Alma that he and Jack worked together one summer on Brokeback Mountain herding sheep. In fact, he could have told her that it was the money from the summer that helped him pay for the wedding. There is nothing wrong with that. The problem, of course, is his own fears, of revealing what happened with Jack that summer. It is as if, Ennis locked Jack away in a separate compartment away from his real life, so that in his mind, Jack really existed as his fishing buddy from long ago. Unfortunately, that compartmentalization mechanism also locked him into seeing Jack only a few times a year, instead of facing the truth, and having the sweet life.
I've always liked Blake, especially that particular poem.
I agree. And I agree too with your former post,when you said that not developing the possible relationship between Jack and Randall,deepens the mystery surrounding the older Jack...Letting aside the fact that surely script writers didn't want to show it too clearly for maybe a "romantic" reason-Randall isn't a figure who many Brokies emphatyse with as to see him making love to Jack...-; the mystery of their relationship and of his character himself creates a greater number of questions to ask around Jack's life and death,the future of his relationship with Ennis,his own feelings,and so on.I don't think this has happenned by chance.
A very good point, indeed. I do think that revealing more about the relatuionship would have provoked mixed feelings with the audience, and perhaps reaise more questions than answers -- answers that probably couldn't be answered in a 2 hour film...
I agree with you that indeed it was Randall that Jack was seeing in Texas. But the ambiguity that I spoke of, was referring to the cause of Jack's death: was it an accident or murder? To Ennis, it was surely the tire iron.
As for Jack lying to Ennis about it, it's simply an extension of what he had been doing, lying or rather omitting to tell the truth, about Mexico. He felt it was justified, as pay-back after the incident at the divorce scene. And by the time Randall came along, the bitterly frustrated Jack felt he was justified there, too.
I think Ennis didn't realize what Jack meant to him until about a year later, so he was already married by the time he figured out the truth. You can also see the change in him, from the frolicking good times in the snow during the honeymoon phase, to the next year, in the drive-in, and the next summer. He married Alma simply because that's what he planned, and he didn't understand until too late that he should never have let Jack outa his sight.
I think he felt the marriage was a trap that he couldn't get out of. Remember, back in 'em days in rural Wyoming, people simple don't get divorced. Some may walk off and go away, leaving behind wive and kids, but most men stuck with it. Ennis probably was subconsciously careless to get Alma to divorce him. He refused to apply for the job at the power company. That was the last straw for her. And Ennis got his wish. Problem was, his subconscious never figured on Child Support, or the custody with the kids. So that cut into his days with Jack. He was even more miserable than if he were to work for the power company, and spend the generous vacation time with Jack. Dumbass. ^*)
:t) Thomas ¡ I also believe that being too clear in showing their relationship would have been taken like a "treason" for many of us,in all the senses of the word...Moreover,in this way,our minds and feelings get free to imagine and give an answer,that could be very different according to the viewer.As a matter of fact,almost everything in Jack's life and specially death,is open enough...
Is this a lie?
You're the reason I'm like this. I'm nothing. I'm no where.
This is a hard one for me. Is Ennis just lashing out in anger trying to hurt Jack? Or does he really believe that he was trapped in poverty because in the old days he'd just quit his job if he had to just to take off with Jack? That one night/summer with Jack plus Jack pursuing/finding him four years later ruined his chance for a 'normal' life?
Either way, I see Jack, the one who has always been more empathetic, wondering if it wasn't true, if he had in fact ruined Ennis' life and deciding that the only way he COULD fix it was to leave him be.
For me, the accusation is either the coldest lie or the hardest truth.
The truth:
Jack was his reason for being, the meaning of living.
The lie:
He was not nothing, not no where. He was happy with Jack, happiest with Jack in his arms. He was right where he should be, but he just wasn't brave enough to take it, to take it from the world who has its own idea about where he should be.
But the threat of Jack seeing someone else, moving on from this g@#dre unsatisfactory situation, put him into the dark space where he was nowhere, nothing. The world just collapsed around him, just as he collapsed on his knees.
In a way, for Jack to leave, to quit Ennis, it made the lie into a truth.
I don't think Jack quitted Ennis. Jack knew Ennis will never merge their lives together. He decided to get "outside interests" to sustain him for the periods inbetween seeing Ennis. Jack saying "I wish I know how to quit you" is actually an acknowledgement that Ennis will always be the central figure of his life, even if this hurt him so much.
If Jack hadn't die, I'm sure their relationship would have carried on as always, even if Jack had another interest at home/on his dad's ranch.
In many ways, Ennis's accusation had both a grain of truth and untruth. It was true that Jack was a large part of Ennis's inner life, but perhaps it may have been untrue to suggest that there was nothing in Ennis's inner nature that beckoned Jack to be a part of that life. In more ways than one, Ennis also shaped who Jack was and had become. What Ennis said was one side of the coin.
Lance-
I like your perspective. I'm not sure I would have gotten that if I were standing in Jack's place, however. Prior to saying "I'm nothing...." he's reminding Jack of what it's like to be broke, the hardships of meeting his child support, etc. And Ennis collapses only after Jack stops him from lashing out physically, again.
I think Ennis takes his rage against himself, which is both for loving a man and for not being brave enough to be with that man, and turns it against others, mainly Jack. But, I think he hates himself for loving Jack that he believes he deserves what he is and has, nothing, and that he really is nowhere.
Yes, Jack leaving (or dying) leaves him desolute. I believe, however, that it finally breaks the biggest lie in Ennis' mind. The one that says "this is wrong".
I think I just took the long way 'round to get to sayin' that I think you're right. It is both lie and truth.
I don't think Jack quitted Ennis. Jack knew Ennis will never merge their lives together. He decided to get "outside interests" to sustain him for the periods inbetween seeing Ennis. Jack saying "I wish I know how to quit you" is actually an acknowledgement that Ennis will always be the central figure of his life, even if this hurt him so much.
If Jack hadn't die, I'm sure their relationship would have carried on as always, even if Jack had another interest at home/on his dad's ranch.
tpe-
Isn't every good lie part truth? And isn't the BEST lie one that the liar believes himself? :c)
Forgive me for being stupid, but could you help me better understand what Jack's side of the coin was?
Excellent point, buckskinbronc.
As for Jack's side, he was also as much a captive to Ennis as Ennis was to him. Jack had always dreamed of a sweet life, and Ennis's refusal to share this through the years kept Jack "stunted" -- unable to progress any further in reaching that goal of happiness. Had he loved Ennis less than this dream of a sweet life, he would have gone with someone else a long time ago...
Ang Lee did say that the scene where Lureen is talking to Ennis on the phone, it should have been clear that she's lying about how Jack really died.
Just a minor observation: in the interview on the Japanese DVD Ang Lee states (twice actually) that Lureen is lying about Jack's death.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkcanig.blu.livefilestore.com%2Fy1pcm2r2f8D0k1GUfY6Eo07-B0yqqMKdTO8vO5-qLu0GfFDgTbHA_1IFTnH8b4I3-uozW7A9m3RW-VlkTB91He8YbAT4elw4SJf%2Falji.jpg&hash=a28179b60a46e38bc86e44c3d45af2c86e82233f)
Brokeback Mountain is fundamentally about homophobia, and Jack's death is the result of homophobia, either by violence at the hands of bigots, or by internalized violence at his own hands. The tragedy of it all is deeper than the separation of two lovers; on the other hand, when love denied is so infinitely tragic, how can more tragedy add to it?
(:* rdx :t) What an awesome linguistic master. How many languages DO you speak? :s)
Just a minor observation: in the interview on the Japanese DVD Ang Lee states (twice actually) that Lureen is lying about Jack's death.Hi rdx! Is there an English transcription of this Japanese interview? If so, I'd be very grateful if you would post it as I'd love to read it.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkcanig.blu.livefilestore.com%2Fy1pcm2r2f8D0k1GUfY6Eo07-B0yqqMKdTO8vO5-qLu0GfFDgTbHA_1IFTnH8b4I3-uozW7A9m3RW-VlkTB91He8YbAT4elw4SJf%2Falji.jpg&hash=a28179b60a46e38bc86e44c3d45af2c86e82233f)
Just a minor observation: in the interview on the Japanese DVD Ang Lee states (twice actually) that Lureen is lying about Jack's death.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkcanig.blu.livefilestore.com%2Fy1pcm2r2f8D0k1GUfY6Eo07-B0yqqMKdTO8vO5-qLu0GfFDgTbHA_1IFTnH8b4I3-uozW7A9m3RW-VlkTB91He8YbAT4elw4SJf%2Falji.jpg&hash=a28179b60a46e38bc86e44c3d45af2c86e82233f)
Hi rdx! Is there an English transcription of this Japanese interview? If so, I'd be very grateful if you would post it as I'd love to read it.
I've just revisited an interview Ang Lee had with Charlie Rose a few days before the movie's initial release. In that interview, Ang Lee says that Lureen is "obviously lying about what happened..." and, a few phrases later, '...she's angry, she's lying..." Anyone who saw that interview and then went on to see the movie would presumably be predisposed to believe that Jack was killed by tire irons and not by a tire rim.
I had the same impression, Lureen is lying, yet it seems that she feels the death of Jack, don't think she cooperate in her murder
Hi rdx! Is there an English transcription of this Japanese interview? If so, I'd be very grateful if you would post it as I'd love to read it.
This verifies my first impression when watching the film for the first time. And since then I never doubted that point. It was my first thought that Lureen was lying and all the time I`m dealing with BBM now my convincement never changed.
~)
Sorry to say but I don't have any transcription and I guess the interview is not to found online. But I could try to do a transcription by myself; no schedule promised.. :s)
Mr Lee speaks English, the questions are in written Japanese (out of my knowledge), e.g:
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkcanig.blu.livefilestore.com%2Fy1p5RiivEEm0Lx__H0kqFYMktuaFR2RX18gSiXMkwigC-h2NEqQPQ9PhlwsnxUjvyd8QRipVcWXJjBCud3jQFQiuLbwgvHjNT5_%2Falji_II.jpg&hash=b22f1b30f1b784d83d3164c980245783fd34450d)
Here's a (very) brief synopsis by Mr dirtbiker: http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=5837.msg320459#msg320459 (http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=5837.msg320459#msg320459).
I so agree. Lureen's lines are like a narrative, a news report; something that she has practised beforehand. Her story is way too coherent and descriptive to be true.
This verifies my first impression when watching the film for the first time. And since then I never doubted that point. It was my first thought that Lureen was lying and all the time I`m dealing with BBM now my convincement never changed. Yes, "she's angry ..." and she is hurt .... because she had known about Jake's plans to leave her ... for a man, to cap it all (if not necessarily because of Ennis :-\\) - an absurdity in those days. She would be disgraced if everybody would get to know about it. -- Jack died at least (!) with her knowledge of what was planned (to murder him), OR probably with her approval OR even at her insistence, IMO.
I wouldn't say that she approved or collaborated in it,but see how she "recites" by heart its details,as cold and bored as a teenager who is explaining her parents that she has been at a girlfriend's,whereas she has been making love with her boyfriend... >:D We only see some tears in her eyes when Ennis corroborates to her that Brokeback really exists and that it was where Jack and him met and where they had come back during all those years;it's to say,where she realises that the man she was talking to was her old rival,this one whom her husband was cheating her with during all her life and who he was going to leave her for...Don't you think also that this is enough as to let others do the dirty job without her opposition?... :s)
Yup, I agree; she didn't collaborate (at least personally) or approve either. But strangely I get this feeling while the watching Ennis-Lureen call that Lureen somehow internally accepted her husband's relationship with Ennis while they were talking, after Ennis's "Back in '63". Lureen knew more (about Ennis) than she told. Maybe she felt some kind of comfort that there was/is someone (else) who loved/loves Jack.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkcanig.blu.livefilestore.com%2Fy1ptbhTMRemi9-WOJSvVnU4CuAsRCkwMMp4P-RUJnHtnd4c0cwUkZs4-u0zhZgzE_KoBfzvJHzs_p8M-lB69YeTY2pNn5TT4rc9%2Fennis_phone.jpg&hash=302cd83a7432931993aa8e46956c221994ea7a97)(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkcanig.blu.livefilestore.com%2Fy1p2FG7HU1DLUUERgZKp7AXW6hI5ZEUWj7x8Qggdxb378Tb_dQlYQAnn0pizjfW3Fg8e4nFpjAvTasWvpXMGO9GnTb8oqOvX6oH%2Flureen_phone.jpg&hash=6535fe1a14c1ff84524f58173c2bb5b38c590884)(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkcanig.blu.livefilestore.com%2Fy1pG5MsVgrdpgkZyh5RUORa1PS-FWiHMDEDM48EbHe9dJrYgCfxC12ldK61cJIJYmMkvJokZwygMyeBJbB-pHNSQ_vX8ot2AgGV%2Flureen_phone_II.jpg&hash=0af06d8a76f098eb60f346c4cc82df717db68d41)(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkcanig.blu.livefilestore.com%2Fy1pmLgdjstOQ8vAOHDeN0Qq_ogwfUI7G2W88SkG9Ug2YKoYS1eQJOi1xNfX9e3X-NoOL1kLZZX8D1EouWhayNryAxS3lhR9R0hx%2Fennis_phone_II.jpg&hash=0c7ae944157b2225ca20437d6cb265b68607ebe2)
Thanks again, rdx! Any further information you can provide on this Japanese interview would be very much welcomed by me and no doubt others as well.
[Moderators, feel free to exercise your vital powers; most of YouTube is more of copyright violation.. #)]
You're welcome CH!
I tried to write an abridged transliteration of Mr Lee's interview but it just didn't work out: me, a non-native-speaker reciting another one wouldn't just justify the objective. I don't want to compromise the train of thought. So, you can download an audio file, AL_Jap_int.mp3, here (http://www.sendspace.com/file/1276sp); 5.6 MB, 24:27. It's only 32 kbps but quite audible. Sorry for the ads!
Here are the pictures showing the questions in Japanese for our 日本語を話す friends and others too...
(@mm:ss on the audio file)
Q1 (@01:39):
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkcanig.blu.livefilestore.com%2Fy1pSj18wkAJxONyy23SW7RR53wf8hEa-FWCnWC4_OtGO-6GhHDkApvBRtsMCwPJZnnMmgnXIUiV855-PPobKvkhrXqbZpYNb0S0%2Falji_III.jpg&hash=db3769befac1b569fa554f1857d968507ab6f966)
Q2 (@05:08):
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkcanig.blu.livefilestore.com%2Fy1pHEz9VgXn6NvZGyeDyLsbneHZQCUH8wS0TdupvETJ_8lLtC9bOELQgvYeeRSTxGoRJVrYKuNwvalRP0lbup17CfBuOnD3VJs8%2Falji_IV.jpg&hash=b14ca23892f736fb9a85179b6e95a9b590a341aa)
Q3 (@06:52):
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkcanig.blu.livefilestore.com%2Fy1pCw8KFZwFC7NYd5eUFxZqprtseRDeGd2VgLe6Bts7i4SLkvDvnZ3L8CtX3zaR_XJrO0MgIm9eEmED71atUb6coL_WgWv12vrG%2Falji_V.jpg&hash=6fbb6a7b3a769d3cff6afd70650ae2e13facc6b9)
Q4 (@08:38):
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkcanig.blu.livefilestore.com%2Fy1pp8XBJ2_eHkK-Uy-rY3XbWDjn0FtoYut-VaZIvoQeW5Apf-4qj-T9q_2rUjK8Qm-hQjgAVQ9h3i9ujbCEg7KS8db2JyX1nJUe%2Falji_VI.jpg&hash=2d98d56c8a7d2ae71cd2bf5ee17028d0b5837d41)
Q5 (@09:49):
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkcanig.blu.livefilestore.com%2Fy1pp8XBJ2_eHkJTF0r2x4zDWd7M0_e5pC3F2ZbVBI477UbTQE23iCeoIgIyvWjDWqKmIhls1LRY7QU5007BznswSKVZGKjfYdse%2Falji_VII.jpg&hash=854312cecdc865d2cb3352cc4c09bba8c7414044)
Q6 (@12:44):
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkcanig.blu.livefilestore.com%2Fy1p3ZStI-JYkxoVtxQy8ZGzU_GmtVT-IqQ6CAAl5wqA8e6voz0sPPjZ8tOGmAjg7PyY1M0zOP847U0SLVL2E6JTVXW0iI2Tgpwk%2Falji_VIII.jpg&hash=bb9986a6bbb14eae13eadf8ca681dc3ecdef2bf5)
Q7 (@13:49):
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkcanig.blu.livefilestore.com%2Fy1p3ZStI-JYkxqky_XDMmh-8RptWIR_hXBKcPZFs1Cj4wqyT7J4kijNUpz8W_pBrptBnFSKZuPB4gOZ8s829tcNdGAjeIQhfGLg%2Falji_IX.jpg&hash=521e4d2503053382efe86aefffe8c04340569425)
Q8 (@16:28):
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkcanig.blu.livefilestore.com%2Fy1pHSFNLUKc1Fn9SbWJ0j_naX7RichvwilvOB2vxqpBzsL8dt-s4CSKgqEEQ_0Vnc15NdLZYxVjA2uBBSmjMRybecpX7mmpWLzI%2Falji_X.jpg&hash=67105130661a69fcc4b640d5a21dfddc73444450)
Q9 (@19:44):
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkcanig.blu.livefilestore.com%2Fy1psVpEOCslPQDEu7NW90D-p82p-k5ahgT42StsNW1b9MjtSKaOHit3OWaAs3An0EYUa6mI62Ue4IaMEX6s6yWrRoI9PCbQ0SgA%2Falji_XI.jpg&hash=376d3db277f4cf2bb93f20d532737bee7fe26096)
Q10 (@22:08):
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkcanig.blu.livefilestore.com%2Fy1pLK7nsM5p17dH3Rd7E_TDQiTqk1KZi2LAn3VHRUCMeALUyavMnbjxdESFGYEXvz-W7g6tVZYKD-RCHUFXa1X69WooWZPxXPSN%2Falji_XII.jpg&hash=68b7a27d0bd523027494d092ba009a82c6cfaa4b)
Note also the introductory picture I've posted before: the interview took place on January 25th 2006. The film opened in Japan (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/releaseinfo) on March 4th 2006, though the backdrop of the interview states March 18th..? I wouldn't be suprised that the opening was advanced.
The interview contains some culturally interesting points: how the film did in Utah, rating (systems) in different countries, the taste of Hong Kong audiences, what did Ennis deserve, etc...
It showed that she still loved Jack, even though she knew that he was not in love with her. I don't necessarily agree with rdx that Lureen was comforted by knowing Ennis also loved Jack. I think in a way, she had mixed feelings...both anger and jealousy, and also sympathy and shared grief.
On the one hand, she told Ennis to go see Jack's folks where half his ashes went. She didn't have to say that, or tell him anything, but I think she understood that he loved Jack, and Jack loved him, so she was doing right by him, doing right by them, angry or not. The way she slammed down the phone and shocked Ennis also showed that she was angry. It's amazing that Anne Hathaway showed such a range of emotion, deep and powerful, in the short span of time during the scene. Of course, Heath brings out the best in everyone, just like he did in the scene with Jack's ma in the kitchen.
Is this a lie?
You're the reason I'm like this. I'm nothing. I'm no where.
This is a hard one for me. Is Ennis just lashing out in anger trying to hurt Jack? Or does he really believe that he was trapped in poverty because in the old days he'd just quit his job if he had to just to take off with Jack? That one night/summer with Jack plus Jack pursuing/finding him four years later ruined his chance for a 'normal' life?
Either way, I see Jack, the one who has always been more empathetic, wondering if it wasn't true, if he had in fact ruined Ennis' life and deciding that the only way he COULD fix it was to leave him be.
For me, the accusation is either the coldest lie or the hardest truth.
"nothing, nowhere" was not all about ennis's lamentations on being broke or not having a good enough job.. it could be not at all about such things.. it was far beyond all these, he was describing his state of being, his despairs
[Moderators, feel free to exercise your vital powers; most of YouTube is more of copyright violation.. #)]Thank you so much for this so interesting interview's translation,rdx ¡ :^^) By the way,how do you obtain so many informations around the world ? You're a great investigator ¡
You're welcome CH!
I tried to write an abridged transliteration of Mr Lee's interview but it just didn't work out: me, a non-native-speaker reciting another one wouldn't just justify the objective. I don't want to compromise the train of thought. So, you can download an audio file, AL_Jap_int.mp3, here (http://www.sendspace.com/file/1276sp); 5.6 MB, 24:27. It's only 32 kbps but quite audible. Sorry for the ads!
Here are the pictures showing the questions in Japanese for our 日本語を話す friends and others too...
(@mm:ss on the audio file)
Thanks rdx. Those screen captures tell the story all their own. Two people hurting in their own way, and as you said, sharing a moment of grief separated by thousands of mile in distance, and months apart in the evolution of that grief in time.
I think it was the genius of Ang Lee, and the great performance of Anne Hathaway that the scene evokes so many different interpretations. Just like much of the rest of the movie, it walks the fine like that balances on the border of different interpretation, without giving a definitive answer. At first viewing, I felt it strange that Lureen was so mechanical in reciting the death of her husband in such a fashion, but then reading the interpretations here online, I can understand the possible explanation of her repeating the same story over and over. The emotional subtext of her reaction to Ennis's revelation about Brokeback is also poignant. But it just occurred to me now, that the much talked about imperfection of her nail polish, also shows a woman, a wife, who is no longer mourning her dead husband. Lureen was over the death of Jack. The mechanical recital perhaps reflect the lack of grief on her part months later. The emotion evoked by Ennis was telling. It showed that she still loved Jack, even though she knew that he was not in love with her. I don't necessarily agree with rdx that Lureen was comforted by knowing Ennis also loved Jack. I think in a way, she had mixed feelings...both anger and jealousy, and also sympathy and shared grief.
On the one hand, she told Ennis to go see Jack's folks where half his ashes went. She didn't have to say that, or tell him anything, but I think she understood that he loved Jack, and Jack loved him, so she was doing right by him, doing right by them, angry or not. The way she slammed down the phone and shocked Ennis also showed that she was angry. It's amazing that Anne Hathaway showed such a range of emotion, deep and powerful, in the short span of time during the scene. Of course, Heath brings out the best in everyone, just like he did in the scene with Jack's ma in the kitchen.
Thanks again rdx. Those screen caps are awe inspiring.
Thank you so much for this so interesting interview's translation,rdx ¡ :^^) By the way,how do you obtain so many informations around the world ? You're a great investigator ¡*o)