Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: Angelove on Jan 06, 2006, 02:32 PM
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Thanks for the lovely insight borger1582 regarding the significance of Ennis's name meaning "Island of the Sea" It's a perfect description of his character. However, I'm also wondering the significance of Jack's name. For me, I look into the themes of the movie, love and regret, and found him appropriately named too. The name represents his impact on Ennis's life after Brokeback mountain, especially the tragic ending.
By the way, thanks TPE for bringing up that the last words from Ennis, "Jack, I swear . . ." as well as the last scene of the movie, embodies the themes of love and regret. I wouldn't have realized it until you have mentioned it and mentioned how beautiful and cold the setting looks outside Ennis's window. With that said, Jack represents to Ennis a love that never dies, but never affirmed, a regret that Ennis has to live with for the rest of his life.
Some people might say that Jack's last name, Twist, symbolizes the cruel twist of fate at the end of the story, but for me, I see his name as a love so deep, and a regret so painful, that's it's like a jack knife that plunges deep into your chest and twists ever so excrutiatingly. I've heard my girlfriends who say that the story just hits them in the chest once they saw the shirt scene and they couldn't stop crying their eyes out. In fact, we are all on this board today because the story did the same to us, and some of us are still trying to recover from the shock of how deeply it affected us.
What do you think?
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Hello Angelove.
I have also been thinking about whether there is any significance there is to Jack's name. It seems to me that there must be some reason behind the name.
The thought that sticks with me the most is how Alma cruelly connects 'TWIST' with 'NASTY' in her fight with Ennis. I think this is an intentional perversion of the name by the Alma character, who has every reason to hate Jack.
I like the comment you made regarding 'twist' of fate. Jack, of course, had great significance in Ennis' life, and his reappearance after the 4 years was decisive in terms of Ennis' marriage as well as in Ennis' own awakening to the great love and passion of his life (the famous kiss scene illustrates this beautifully.) The fact that Ennis could not bring himself to fully acknowledge this love as Jack had wanted it does not lessen the import that their fates were hopelessly intertwined.
I had thought about this a few weeks ago, and for some reason, I associate 'twist' with 'star-crossed'. Not so sure if this association would make sense to everybody.
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TPE and Angelove: A little something to add - Annie Proulx picked the last name Twist to associate with less the relationship but more his occupation - a rodeo bull rider...In an interview she spoke directly to the occupational hazard of Jack's body being twisted, jerked and wrangled by a bull and thought "Twist" was somehow the appropriate name. That being said, I still like the methaphors (or is it similes?? my literary depth is painfully lacking).. you both connect between the name and the story. For Jack, BBM will always be the source of twisting and writhing in pain over what could have been, but never was.
stationbbm
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TPE and Angelove: A little something to add - Annie Proulx picked the last name Twist to associate with less the relationship but more his occupation - a rodeo bull rider...In an interview she spoke directly to the occupational hazard of Jack's body being twisted, jerked and wrangled by a bull and thought "Twist" was somehow the appropriate name. That being said, I still like the methaphors (or is it similes?? my literary depth is painfully lacking).. you both connect between the name and the story. For Jack, BBM will always be the source of twisting and writhing in pain over what could have been, but never was.
stationbbm
stationbbm, thanks so much for posting Proulx' idea behind the name. It certainly makes sense, and I knew that there had to be something behind her choice of name!
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Ah, that makes more sense then. Jack is a rodeo rider and although his rodeo career was shortlived, he did ride out his relationship with Ennis as long as he could, for twenty long years. Thus, it was fitting that he was a rodeo cowboy. If riding bulls can physically twist his body and get it bent out of shape, then riding out his relationship with Ennis must have twisted some thing important inside, such as twisting his hopes and love into disappointment and bitterness. This could be seen in his eyes, demeanor and stance when talks to Ennis after waiting for so many years, that crushed look in his eyes, the dissatisfied frown on his face, and the way he too is hunched over by a burden that he was not only forced to bear, and felt unbearable to bear at times. We see all this in the last scene Ennis and Jack were together.
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Ah, that makes more sense then. Jack is a rodeo rider and although his rodeo career was shortlived, he did ride out his relationship with Ennis as long as he could, for twenty long years. Thus, it was fitting that he was a rodeo cowboy. If riding bulls can physically twist his body and get it bent out of shape, then riding out his relationship with Ennis must have twisted some thing important inside, such as twisting his hopes and love into disappointment and bitterness. This could be seen in his eyes, demeanor and stance when talks to Ennis after waiting for so many years, that crushed look in his eyes, the dissatisfied frown on his face, and the way he too is hunched over by a burden that he was not only forced to bear, and felt unbearable to bear at times. We see all this in the last scene Ennis and Jack were together.
Yes, the rodeo analogy makes perfect sense. Realizing this builds much more sympathy for the Jack character.
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Ah, that makes more sense then. Jack is a rodeo rider and although his rodeo career was shortlived, he did ride out his relationship with Ennis as long as he could, for twenty long years. Thus, it was fitting that he was a rodeo cowboy. If riding bulls can physically twist his body and get it bent out of shape, then riding out his relationship with Ennis must have twisted some thing important inside, such as twisting his hopes and love into disappointment and bitterness. This could be seen in his eyes, demeanor and stance when talks to Ennis after waiting for so many years, that crushed look in his eyes, the dissatisfied frown on his face, and the way he too is hunched over by a burden that he was not only forced to bear, and felt unbearable to bear at times. We see all this in the last scene Ennis and Jack were together.
Angelove: You are really taking it out on Ennis here. Don't forget. Ennis felt led into this thing. He was a loner and I dare say, had no real understanding what he was getting into...I go back to an earlier statement I made that Ennis is truly a simple cowboy character (not well educated, not well spoken, not any real depth) who had no idea of the complexity he was stepping into...While we can feel sorry for Jack and all that he was put through, Ennis cannot be solely to blame for something he really didn't understand...Proulx's short story makes it clear that he had never really been loved and didn't have the first clue about how to respond to that...Jack can be frustrated, but was also told very succinctly by Ennis that his past was not something that would invite a lot of emotion, passion, or openness...BBM was something that grabbed both of them unexpectedly and wouldn't let go, but Ennis cannot be the culprit. Just speculating a little here..but I cannot help but wonder how all of those monthly, lonely 14-hour drives from Texas to Wyoming must have impacted Jack in a way that would conjure in terms of "what if"...perhaps Jack's more to blame for setting expectations on a relationship that wasn't ever going to develop the way he wanted?? We're all guilty of that...
stationbbm
stationbbm
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StationBBM, I have been hard on Ennis in my other threads, but I don't think I blamed him for anything in this one. I realize that it takes two to tango and I already know that Jack is also partially to blame since it is his choice to hang on for the ride of his life, one that he can't get off even if he wanted to. Ennis is honest and didn't promise Jack anything he couldn't give, and to some degree, he never promised Jack anything at all.
What I've realized, and perhaps for a long while now, that even though Ennis is the focus of the story and he is the character we most sympathize with, Jack is another character I sympathize with as well. Please don't get me wrong, I don't hate Ennis nor do I feel that Jack is blameless either. But the pain of waiting, in faith that your partner will one day fulfill your expectations, as stupid and crazy and immature as those expectations may be, is a force that can warp you into something bitter and jaded.
Yes, it is Jack's fault that he has expectations of Ennis, we should never have expectations or expect the people we love to fulfill them, and Ennis is not to blame for not fulfilling them. But, being a dreamer, a romantic, I cannot blame Jack as well for dreaming a happy ending with Ennis as unrealistic as that dream is. Heck, Jack even tried to leave Ennis once, to have his needs and dreams fulfilled by somebody else, but he came back to him. That's how powerful A Love that Never Dies is, powerful enough to put your life on hold for the other person, powerful enough to remain in a relationship that offers you no promises, powerful enough to put away your hopes and dreams to be with the person you love. Am I the only who finds it tragic?
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Every great tragic character, like Ennis in this story, has a great tragic flaw. For the tragic flaw of 'Brokeback Mountain' is truly to be found in Ennis. In a sense, this is his story.
The tragic flaw in this case in not being able to decide between his deep love for Jack on one side, and, on the other side, his many fears, his perceived obligations to society as a whole, and, above all, his love for his daughters. It is a tragic flaw that all of us can relate to, because we recognize it all too well in ourselves or in other people. That is why our hearts reach out to him.
But the story of Ennis is indecipherable without Jack, who is, after all, the key to the impenetrable door that is Ennis.
Jack is a more simple, straightforward soul. He knows what he truly loves and is willing to flaunt everything else to see his love's fruition. He does not see all the other angles (like Ennis). It is his wide-open heart and his needing to be loved unfettered in return that speak to us and make us love him all the more.
These two characters are very far from perfect. This is why we deeply love them so.
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TPE and Angelove:
I grow a foot taller in knowledge and understanding everytime you post...this is helpful to me and the whole forum! Appreciate you!
TGIF!
stationbbm
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Thanks TPE and stationbbm,
I learned a lot from reading your posts on this forum than I would have if I didn't. I now understand the true tragedy of the movie and how it is Ennis's story after all.
To be honest, I was kind of peeved at Ennis throughout the movie, but I finally felt sorry for him when Jack went away. The reason why I felt peeved at Ennis until that point was because my heart reached out for the people who suffered along with him, especially Alma, Jack and even his second girlfriend. For me, that was tragic part of the movie until the real one came along. I know that Ennis only had good intentions and did what he believed was right, but at the same time, I cannot help, but to feel that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions and what a Hell the other characters had to go through, and how tragic their situation is, to love somebody and not to be fulfilled by it.
However, the road to redemption is paved with regret, one that Ennis is now forced to walk, which is the true tragedy of this movie.
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I think we all appreciate a great discussion and wonderful exchange of ideas.
Especially because I will be busy the whole weekend watching Brokeback again with different friends! I have a lot more to bring to the table when I discuss it with them after the screenings.
Thanks!
I suspect that I shall much have more to share in this forum later this weekend or on Monday! :)
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Jake Gyllenhaal received a note from Annie Proulx..in it she says Jack Twist refers, twist refers to the strength of thighs and butt muslcles that a bull rider has to have in order to stay on the bull. Now that certainly puts an interesting twist on his name, and the imagination is running wild.
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Am I the only who finds it tragic?
AngelLove I share your views all heartily.
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Jake Gyllenhaal received a note from Annie Proulx..in it she says Jack Twist refers, twist refers to the strength of thighs and butt muslcles that a bull rider has to have in order to stay on the bull. Now that certainly puts an interesting twist on his name, and the imagination is running wild.
Cowboy's gonna have a meltdown over this note!
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Jake Gyllenhaal received a note from Annie Proulx..in it she says Jack Twist refers, twist refers to the strength of thighs and butt muslcles that a bull rider has to have in order to stay on the bull. Now that certainly puts an interesting twist on his name, and the imagination is running wild.
Cowboy's gonna have a meltdown over this note!
:D :D :D :D
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Well Cowboy, glad that I could bring on a meltdown... thought that it was such a good little thing to put in the discussion, and it sure did bring on the imaginings, how it related to Jack and Ennis' physical relationship... well enough of that or I'll have to leave the site prematurely.
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Has this been discussed? I was thinking out the names the other day and wondering if anyone felt there was some meaning behind them? Sometimes authors choose them for a specific purpose..
Ennis Del Mar - "from the sea" - makes me think of how huge the ocean is but sooo much lies beneath. Goes on.
Jack Twist - well, maybe that he provides the "twist" in Ennis' life - esp in the end when I think he learns to put others before him i.e. going to his daughters wedding so please her (and him)
Thoughts?
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Has this been discussed? I was thinking out the names the other day and wondering if anyone felt there was some meaning behind them? Sometimes authors choose them for a specific purpose..
Ennis Del Mar - "from the sea" - makes me think of how huge the ocean is but sooo much lies beneath. Goes on.
Jack Twist - well, maybe that he provides the "twist" in Ennis' life - esp in the end when I think he learns to put others before him i.e. going to his daughters wedding so please her (and him)
Thoughts?
Yes, this has been discussed -- in a very old thread. One of the earliest ones, I believe! But thank you for bringing this up. I shall locate the old thread and merge this with it.
Ennis del Mar -- Island of the Sea
Jack Twist -- evokes the twisting of a bull rider in a Rodeo as he tries to keep his seat (Proulx, in her dedicatory inscription on a copy of "Close Range", presented to Jake Gyllenhaal)
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Ah, I figured it had. See, I'm late to the game!!! ;)
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A Jack lifts things up and supports them much like Jack did for Ennis. :)
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Yes, this has been discussed -- in a very old thread. One of the earliest ones, I believe! But thank you for bringing this up. I shall locate the old thread and merge this with it.
I found one thread and have merged it :)
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Thanks for merging - that was very interesting to read. Does Ennis translate to "island". That is very telling I think.
I'm completely hooked onto this movie b.c i can't get over the unrequited love. :( I keep coming here to make them "alive" again and wondering how Ennis is doing... etc :)
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I found one thread and have merged it :)
Thanks LJN. :)
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Thanks for merging - that was very interesting to read. Does Ennis translate to "island". That is very telling I think.
I'm completely hooked onto this movie b.c i can't get over the unrequited love. :( I keep coming here to make them "alive" again and wondering how Ennis is doing... etc :)
Their names tell all, it seems.
masetane, we keep them alive inside, but yes, it spills out of us. We can't help it. That's why it is good to be here. :)
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Does Ennis translate to "island". That is very telling I think.
I think it was liam56 who noted that "ennis" derives from an old gaelic (?) word for island. I forget the details, so I could be wrong in saying that it is gaelic. I should find his old post about this...
(liam56 is an old friend of mine who was our resident linguist. Since last year, he has moved from Chicago to Italy.)
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I know I read this on an old thread somewhere: Jack Nasty was a saying used in the west long before this movie. It referred to anyone who was on the nasty side. It wasn't something Alma's character created. I don't know if this is true, not being from that area of the US, but someone posted that as a statement of fact. Might want to check the old thread about names.
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If I may offer my 2 cents, I've often thought about these names too. Jack, I beleive is a nickname for the more formal sounding John. descibed in the dictionary as the forth Gospel and the more modern ( a prostitutes's customer. ) Ennis is named appropriatley if it means "island" as stated. Rooted, isolated, but surrounded by threats from all sides. Society. Never knew when the big wave would come to to wash him away. It's fitting . ( on an interesting note comedian Bill Cosby's late son shared the name) Variations or references to Jack's name in the movie is interesting too. Rodeo, Jack Nasty. And my fav Jack F-ckin Twist. Pissant, and just plain Twist.
The *twist of fate* analogy sums up his life from the moment he met Ennis to the outcome of his story in the film to me. The twists and turns his life took says it all. My thoughts.
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Jack is used in so many expressions too - Jack Frost, Jack-in-a-Box, Jack-of-all-Trades, every man Jack of them - you could go on for ages. Jack is a sort of everyman name but it also has a familiar ring which John doesn't so it's appropriate that Jack's father is John.
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Alma. What about this name? Does anyone have any insights to it?
I find it interesting that another poor, rural, western movie with McMurtry ties, Hud, which coincidentally was released in 1963, also features an Alma (wonderfully played by Patricia Neal). Is there significance here?
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Alma: Modern name meaning either "nourishing" from Latin or "the soul" from Spanish.
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Wonder if "Lureen" implies that she lured Jack?
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Alma. What about this name? Does anyone have any insights to it?
I find it interesting that another poor, rural, western movie with McMurtry ties, Hud, which coincidentally was released in 1963, also features an Alma (wonderfully played by Patricia Neal). Is there significance here?
I don't know if the Latin meaning had anything to do with the choice of this name, but it means "nurturing", and is closely associated with the term "anima".
And I must admit that the family name "Newsome" evokes both "nouveau riche" and "noisome" in my mind, especially when it is associated with Lureen's father...
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I read somewhere that Alma means "soul". Ennis also means "reliable" acording to a book on baby names.
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I read somewhere that Alma means "soul". Ennis also means "reliable" acording to a book on baby names.
Yes, as "anima" connotes "spirit", "driving force", or "soul" -- it is that that nurtures us at the core.
Interesting comment about "reliable" and "Ennis". I wonder where this is rooted...
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It also seems to me that Randall and LaShawn have names that appear to come from outside or be less traditional than someof the others. LaShawn to me sounds Southern or maybe trailer-park. ( >:D Jan)
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Yes, as "anima" connotes "spirit", "driving force", or "soul" -- it is that that nurtures us at the core.
Interesting comment about "reliable" and "Ennis". I wonder where this is rooted...
If I ever find that book again, I'll see what it says and post it here.
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What about John Twist? A grumpy old toilet? After all, he punished baby Jack for sprinkling all over the toilet.
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If I ever find that book again, I'll see what it says and post it here.
Thanks JT. Etymology is always of interest!
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What about John Twist? A grumpy old toilet? After all, he punished baby Jack for sprinkling all over the toilet.
I don't know if that association was ever intended! ;D
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Cassie. Cassandra? The one who prophecies the future and yet isn't listened to? What does she say about Ennis?
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Cassie. Cassandra? The one who prophecies the future and yet isn't listened to? What does she say about Ennis?
Very provocative. The prophetess doomed to be ignored - and is "killed" in the end.
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I can't stop thinking about the names! Good subject...
Alma... what comes to my mind is alma mater. Like Ennis graduated from her to Jack. She was very likely his first serious lover until Jack. And, mater is mother. Kind of like an old shoe, the one left behind.
But now, Ennis Del Mar and Jack Twist are extremely sexual names. We all get Jack and Twist.
Ennis... well, penis. that's easy. Did you ever reverse his last name? Del Mar: Ram Led. He was the led ram.
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Never thought of those angles before!
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I can't stop thinking about the names! Good subject...
Alma... what comes to my mind is alma mater. Like Ennis graduated from her to Jack. She was very likely his first serious lover until Jack. And, mater is mother. Kind of like an old shoe, the one left behind.
But now, Ennis Del Mar and Jack Twist are extremely sexual names. We all get Jack and Twist.
Ennis... well, penis. that's easy. Did you ever reverse his last name? Del Mar: Ram Led. He was the led ram.
Very interesting take. To this date, I am still amazed by these details. I have never thought of those either.
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I'm wondering where Annie Proulx found the names... :s)
Lureen and LaShawn are quite "exotic" to say the least. I 'am about to finish Close Range and there are a big bunch of names I can't believe people got like... Car and his brother Train ???
I could figure real people got names like this but why parents would call their children like this? ^*()
I'm still trying to figure out Lureen (Lorraine?) and LaShawn (no clue :i) I have to admit some of my folks have uncommon names to say the least. Both branches of my family are from a very remote area of Quebec, as far as Wyoming and Texas are, I was blessed to be named Pierre I guess.
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I can't stop thinking about the names! Good subject...
Alma... what comes to my mind is alma mater. Like Ennis graduated from her to Jack. She was very likely his first serious lover until Jack. And, mater is mother. Kind of like an old shoe, the one left behind.
Alma Mater indeed means "nourishing mother", but it's associations with commencements also add another layer of meaning.
But now, Ennis Del Mar and Jack Twist are extremely sexual names. We all get Jack and Twist.
Ennis... well, penis. that's easy. Did you ever reverse his last name? Del Mar: Ram Led. He was the led ram.
I think of their names as less sexual and more revealing of their inner selves.
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I'm wondering where Annie Proulx found the names... :s)
Lureen and LaShawn are quite "exotic" to say the least. I 'am about to finish Close Range and there are a big bunch of names I can't believe people got like... Car and his brother Train ???
I could figure real people got names like this but why parents would call their children like this? ^*()
I'm still trying to figure out Lureen (Lorraine?) and LaShawn (no clue :i) I have to admit some of my folks have uncommon names to say the least. Both branches of my family are from a very remote area of Quebec, as far as Wyoming and Texas are, I was blessed to be named Pierre I guess.
Good questions. It would be good to look further into the origins of these 2 names.
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Americans seem to create -ene or -een names eg Charlene, Mayleen. And I think southerners have the La- something ones - maybe a hang-over from the French possession of the Southern states like Louisiana?
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So LaShawn could be some feminine version of Shawn? It's interesting what you wrote about the French possesion of Louisiana.
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WW and Cham, these are excellent ideas. I like the theory on LaShawn. :)
What about Lureen then? Is it a variation of Laurent?
To be sure, the French owned everything from the Upper Great Plains down to Louisiana. The Louisiana purchase sold most of what is today a good portion of the American Midwest to the US. The French presence in these and the surrounding territories can still be seen today in the preponderance of names given to midwestern cities and counties: Joliet, Des Plaines, St. Clair, St. Cloud, Fond du Lac, La Crosse, Eau Claire, etc.
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I know it's not linked, but when I was trying to say the name in a French way ( with my accent?) I suddenly thlought of l'ours - the bear. Maybe you could make a version of little bear from Lureen's name. No, it's too fanciful more likely a sort of name made up because it sort of sounded like other sort of Frenchy sort of names.
Lashawn sounds like a distorted version of something French - pity chaume ends in a m not an n. I like the idea of her being called "thatch". Maybe it's a version of "chaud" = hot - but she isn't, and anyway it would be LaChaude. Or maybe a version of chienne = bitch. LaChienne would be a great name.
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I know it's not linked, but when I was trying to say the name in a French way ( with my accent?) I suddenly thlought of l'ours - the bear. Maybe you could make a version of little bear from Lureen's name. No, it's too fanciful more likely a sort of name made up because it sort of sounded like other sort of Frenchy sort of names.
Lashawn sounds like a distorted version of something French - pity chaume ends in a m not an n. I like the idea of her being called "thatch". Maybe it's a version of "chaud" = hot - but she isn't, and anyway it would be LaChaude. Or maybe a version of chienne = bitch. LaChienne would be a great name.
I would like to find out more the etymologies of these names. They intrigue me...
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This is probably old hat to most of you, but Ennis (or Innis, either is used) means "island" in Gaelic, and Del Mar is, of course, "in the sea" in Spanish. So Ennis Del Mar becomes Island in the sea, a perfect name for the psychological isolation of little Ennis after Earl's death. This might also be a reference to a poem by John Donne called "No Man is an Island," which contains the famous lines, "do not ask for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee."
In "The Mud Below," another short story in "Close Range," by Annie Proulx, one cowboy puts "A hand, fingers outstretched, ...across (the bull rider's) right shoulder, and against his chest. (The bull rider) did not know why this eased his chronic anxiety. But, in the way these things go, that was when he needed twist, to auger him through the ride."
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I found something. It seems to indicate that LaShawn can also be a boy's name!
From http://www.babynamescountry.com/meanings/Lashawn.html
The Name Origin and Meaning of Lashawn
Gender: Name suitable for both gender
Origin: American
Meaning: The American name Lashawn means - a short form of Lashawna
The Name Origin and Meaning of Lashawna
Gender: Female
Origin: American
Meaning: The American name Lashawna means - a combination of the prefix La + Shawna
The Name Origin and Meaning of Shawna
Gender: Female
Origin: Hebrew
Meaning: The Hebrew name Shawna means - a form of Shana, Shawn
Variants: Seana, Shauna, Shona
The Name Origin and Meaning of Shana
Gender: Female
Origin: Hebrew
Meaning: The Hebrew name Shana means - God is gracious
So I guess LaShawn means "God is gracious".
Also:
From http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Lashawn
Lashawn - Name Meaning and Origin
The boy's and girl's name Lashawn \l(a)-sha-wn\ is a variant of La-.
The baby name Lashawn sounds like Leshawn and Lucian. Other similar baby names are Dashawn and Rashawn.
Lashawn is a very rare male first name and a very rare surname (source: 1990 U.S. Census). Displayed below is the baby name popularity trend for the boy's name Lashawn. Click here to compare Lashawn with related baby names.
(For the charts, please refer to the actual site.)
I shall look up Lureen next...
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Thanks for that work you did explaining the meaning of "LaShawn." It does fit her, because, by "the grace of God," (by asking LaShawna to leave the table to go dance), Jack is able to escape Lureen's sarcasm and Randall's unwanted attention.
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According to The Book of Baby names , the name "Jack" has traits that mean "party animal", cocky. ;D :*( :c)
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Thanks for that work you did explaining the meaning of "LaShawn." It does fit her, because, by "the grace of God," (by asking LaShawna to leave the table to go dance), Jack is able to escape Lureen's sarcasm and Randall's unwanted attention.
She may have been the grace of God to someone, but for the life of me, it is hard for me to think that their is a symbolism behind this choice of name! ;)
Her inability to listen and observe were certainly convenient traits as far as Randall was concerned! And Jack also found her a convenient "screen" when it came to obfuscating his relationship with Randall.
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Jack had a relationship with Randall?
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Jack had a relationship with Randall?
OT: I assume that he had. This was implied when Jack confessed to having a relationship with "the ranch foreman's wife". There are many threads dealing with this topic...
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OT: I assume that he had. This was implied when Jack confessed to having a relationship with "the ranch foreman's wife". There are many threads dealing with this topic...
Well, I'd better stay away from there - the thought of it seems to me like a big "Whuh?" What the hell'd they draw on to come up with an idea like that? Surely not out of Jack's lie? Well, thanks.
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Ennis means island? and del mar means of the sea? Is it right?
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OT: I assume that he had. This was implied when Jack confessed to having a relationship with "the ranch foreman's wife". There are many threads dealing with this topic...
In Annie Proulx's book Ennis asks to Jack "Have you everbeen with other guys?" and Jack says "no, never", but Proulx comments he didn't stay steady...so I think he had a relation with Randal...into the movie it is clear on my opinion...Jack needs it
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Ennis means island? and del mar means of the sea? Is it right?
Yes. :)
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In Annie Proulx's book Ennis asks to Jack "Have you everbeen with other guys?" and Jack says "no, never", but Proulx comments he didn't stay steady...so I think he had a relation with Randal...into the movie it is clear on my opinion...Jack needs it
The only problem I have with this is that Randall isn't even in the book (nor does Ms. Proulx make any reference to a steady "date" for Jack, and he's only in the film for the Dinner/Dance where Jack seems to go out of his way to ignore him and even get away from him. Look at it like this: Jack's a high-school dropout, Randall has graduated from Texas A&M (current enrolment over 45,000) - Jack goin' to the croppie house with a ranch foreman? IMO Jack would be rightly suspicious of someone so far out of his class making a pass at him with both their wives present. And there's another thing about Randall that set my gay nerves atwitchin' - he's a ranch foreman who has a four-year degree from Texas Agriculture and Mechanics University - if he couldn't fix his own pickup, he'd have someone working for him who could. To break down by the side of the road on the way to an important social event of the Childress social calendar would very definitely cause Randall to lose face and to be in for some serious cojones-as-pinata action the following day. Now of course this could be just a little homo-paranoia creepin' up, but it doesn't make sense. Besides, on a farm there'd be all kinds of vehicles available to a ranch foreman if his truck wasn't operating up to snuff. The potentially darker side of Randall, the one I left the theater with the first time I saw the film was that he was part of the Good Ole Boy Network - right out of college he gets a foreman's job on a ranch, that doesn't happen to each of the several thousand Aggie grads every year. (I did live in Houston for a year and a half as a banquet manager for a national hotel chain - these moneyed "ranch" folks are very much into status, and would expect their foreman, as a representative of their business, to keep up appearances. The broken down pick up by the side of the road isn't really believable.) A ranch has to have more than a few employees to have a foreman, which means there's money in that ranch, which means that Roy Taylor, Randall's boss, is friendly with the other money in town, LD Newsome. Now if you were one of the richest men in town and some poor to middlin' bull-rider knocked your daughter up, you would be looking for ways to get rid of him...and everybody knows what a lonely rodeo cowboy will do with a few beers alone with any other lonely male... Well, I have been wrong before, but my first viewing it seemed logical that LD wanted jack gone - hell Jack even says he practically offered to by him off, and agreeing to meet clandestinely with Randall would be a good way to get killed. I'm just sayin'.
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The only problem I have with this is that Randall isn't even in the book (nor does Ms. Proulx make any reference to a steady "date" for Jack, and he's only in the film for the Dinner/Dance where Jack seems to go out of his way to ignore him and even get away from him. Look at it like this: Jack's a high-school dropout, Randall has graduated from Texas A&M (current enrolment over 45,000) - Jack goin' to the croppie house with a ranch foreman? IMO Jack would be rightly suspicious of someone so far out of his class making a pass at him with both their wives present. And there's another thing about Randall that set my gay nerves atwitchin' - he's a ranch foreman who has a four-year degree from Texas Agriculture and Mechanics University - if he couldn't fix his own pickup, he'd have someone working for him who could. To break down by the side of the road on the way to an important social event of the Childress social calendar would very definitely cause Randall to lose face and to be in for some serious cojones-as-pinata action the following day. Now of course this could be just a little homo-paranoia creepin' up, but it doesn't make sense. Besides, on a farm there'd be all kinds of vehicles available to a ranch foreman if his truck wasn't operating up to snuff. The potentially darker side of Randall, the one I left the theater with the first time I saw the film was that he was part of the Good Ole Boy Network - right out of college he gets a foreman's job on a ranch, that doesn't happen to each of the several thousand Aggie grads every year. (I did live in Houston for a year and a half as a banquet manager for a national hotel chain - these moneyed "ranch" folks are very much into status, and would expect their foreman, as a representative of their business, to keep up appearances. The broken down pick up by the side of the road isn't really believable.) A ranch has to have more than a few employees to have a foreman, which means there's money in that ranch, which means that Roy Taylor, Randall's boss, is friendly with the other money in town, LD Newsome. Now if you were one of the richest men in town and some poor to middlin' bull-rider knocked your daughter up, you would be looking for ways to get rid of him...and everybody knows what a lonely rodeo cowboy will do with a few beers alone with any other lonely male... Well, I have been wrong before, but my first viewing it seemed logical that LD wanted jack gone - hell Jack even says he practically offered to by him off, and agreeing to meet clandestinely with Randall would be a good way to get killed. I'm just sayin'.
True, the ss never calls Randall by name, although he is assumed to be the Texas ranch neighbor mentioned by John Twist.
Also, the movie explicitly stated that Randall majored in animal husbandry, so I guess we can forgiv ehis not being so mechanical! ;D
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Did I hear Ennis refer to Jack as " Henry" in the confrontation scene? Any one else hear this?
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No - where?
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No I never heard that.
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No, the only name he did call him was "bud",when he about to break the news that he had to change the date of their next meeting.
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I heard this just as Jack starts in on Ennis about how they could have had a " fu--kin good life". Jack is pointing at Ennis and Ennis nods his head and mumbles " Gawd Henry" listen up with your earphones , he says it ! I have a set of powerful Sony stereo headphones and they pick up everything. I suppose in the SS they give Jack's full name. I can't remember. as I admit, I've only read it once as I very much prefer the movie version.not to take anything away from A.Proux's descriptions of these wonderful characters. Is Jack's middle name Henry? or something, Please inform. Thanks.
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. . . and Ennis nods his head and mumbles "Gawd Henry" listen up with your earphones , he says it!
Sorry, to me it sounds like "goddamn him"
Is Jack's middle name Henry? or something, Please inform. Thanks.
I believe it's "Jack F**ckin Twist" ain't it? ;D Don't think any other moniker is used.
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I'm just wondering if this name had significance. I maybe wrong but this is what I think I hear, but won't say I'm absolutly right. It's more of Ennis's mumbling . First I thought he said " Gotta get going" but after listening to it over and over this is what I came up with. Goddamn him" could very well be possible too. Ah ,another excuse to watch BBM again ,especially this great scene! ;DThanks.
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Interesting comment, although I never heard this. Then again, I have not used earphones. Perhaps you just misunderstood what Ennis said. It is difficult to follow waht Ennis says for most of the movie anyway! :)
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I heard this just as Jack starts in on Ennis about how they could have had a " fu--kin good life". Jack is pointing at Ennis and Ennis nods his head and mumbles " Gawd Henry" listen up with your earphones , he says it ! I have a set of powerful Sony stereo headphones and they pick up everything. I suppose in the SS they give Jack's full name. I can't remember. as I admit, I've only read it once as I very much prefer the movie version.not to take anything away from A.Proux's descriptions of these wonderful characters. Is Jack's middle name Henry? or something, Please inform. Thanks.
I have to listen to this asap.!!! BRB
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I hear: "God damned Henry"
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Alma means soul or spirit. Alma del Mar = Spirit of the sea? Soul of the sea? Maybe Annie was trying to imply that Alma was the spirit within which Ennis's island existed. Jack disrupted this scenario, thus leading to the turmoil in the marriage.
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I hear: "God damned Henry"
This what i heard too. Thanks. It's mumbled, but again after numerous times going over it, this seems to be what he says . Glad some one else hears it too.
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Alma means soul or spirit. Alma del Mar = Spirit of the sea? Soul of the sea? Maybe Annie was trying to imply that Alma was the spirit within which Ennis's island existed. Jack disrupted this scenario, thus leading to the turmoil in the marriage.
I find the pronunciation of the name rather interesting: more like "Elma" instead of "Alma" -- as if to sound in consonance with "Ennis".
As for "Henry", I don't know what to make of it. We are probably hearing something that sounds close to "Henry" but is probably a different word. Again, the way Ennis mumbles all the time, it is hard to say what he is exactly saying.
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I finally deciphered Ennis's name and its significance... i could be all wrong... I have not stopped thinking about his name. here it is: (I always thought my theory on led ram was significant. He was the ram, led by Jack)
spell del mar backwards then spell ennis backwards... over and over (like their affair) and you have the meaning.
ram led sinneramledsinneramledsinner
sinner is a significant word in the movie. "then sinners like us, we march off to hell..." "Speak for yourself, I haven't yet had the opportunity."
The name Ennis was just too unusual ... it seemed part of a message, a code... with the unusual last name also. anyone else discover this? And, any thoughts?
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Interesting point of view,Tamlynn;perhaps itīs only a coincidence,but it can also have a symbolism.And if itīs so,we could be facing to a moral lesson?The man who is unfaithful to his wife in a literal sense and also unfathful to HIMSELF by denying his deepest feelings, in a more general or emotional sense?.Itīd be like the symbolism of Jackīs red shirt in the reunion scene we talked about in "Double meanings...",referring to sinīs idea...ŋno?.And if we unite it with the surname,Del Mar-that is very curious to me,because it has already been said that means "Of the sea" in Spanish-,we find a man with a strong sense of the sin who lives with a great guilt feeling isolated from the society that surrounds him,in his own world,in his own "island i the sea".At least,itīs poetical and nice... <^(
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I finally deciphered Ennis's name and its significance... i could be all wrong... I have not stopped thinking about his name. here it is: (I always thought my theory on led ram was significant. He was the ram, led by Jack)
spell del mar backwards then spell ennis backwards... over and over (like their affair) and you have the meaning.
ram led sinneramledsinneramledsinner
sinner is a significant word in the movie. "then sinners like us, we march off to hell..." "Speak for yourself, I haven't yet had the opportunity."
The name Ennis was just too unusual ... it seemed part of a message, a code... with the unusual last name also. anyone else discover this? And, any thoughts?
Interesting interpretation.
The name Ennis is a variant of Hennessy, O'Hennessy, or O hAonghusa (descendant of Anonghus) which is much more common in Irish/Scottish/Gaelic. The root is probably "Island", hence the variant meaning in Irish "one or only choice".
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Interesting interpretation.
The name Ennis is a variant of Hennessy, O'Hennessy, or O hAonghusa (descendant of Anonghus) which is much more common in Irish/Scottish/Gaelic. The root is probably "Island", hence the variant meaning in Irish "one or only choice".
Very interesting,Thomas.Then,the meaning of his name and surname as "Island of the sea" has a greater significance.Ennis was a man of an one or only choice,but was as isolated as an island,alone in the inmensity of the sea;he must very often to hide this choice he made because of his own isolation,because of not being able to share this choice with nobody,even with himself.
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Very interesting,Thomas.Then,the meaning of his name and surname as "Island of the sea" has a greater significance.Ennis was a man of an one or only choice,but was as isolated as an island,alone in the inmensity of the sea;he must very often to hide this choice he made because of his own isolation,because of not being able to share this choice with nobody,even with himself.
Yes, it always seemed to me that Ennis felt -- rightly or wrongly -- that he was limited in his choices, as a person stranded on a desert island, surrounded by the sounding sea.
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The name Ennis was just too unusual ... it seemed part of a message, a code... with the unusual last name also. anyone else discover this? And, any thoughts?
Ennis is an unusual name in the US, but not among the Irish.
Del Mar is also a first name ( Delmar) that was pretty popular in the 30's and 40's in the US. I had a cousin Delmar, and often heard that name.
I like the interpretation of Ennis meaning Island, because he was an island unto himself and that name seems appropriate. Also, it sound very masculine to me, and very musical.
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Ennis is an unusual name in the US, but not among the Irish.
Del Mar is also a first name ( Delmar) that was pretty popular in the 30's and 40's in the US. I had a cousin Delmar, and often heard that name.
I like the interpretation of Ennis meaning Island, because he was an island unto himself and that name seems appropriate. Also, it sound very masculine to me, and very musical.
The image of the island certainly conjures the image of "standing alone", and being "only one". It conjures both uniqueness, self-sufficiency, and loneliness.
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Yes, it always seemed to me that Ennis felt -- rightly or wrongly -- that he was limited in his choices, as a person stranded on a desert island, surrounded by the sounding sea.
This description brings to mind the Paul Simon song from 1965, "I Am A Rock". Most of us of a certain, ahem age, can probably recite the melody from this song in our head. The lyrics are a good picture of Ennis and go something like this . . .
I am a rock,
I am an island.
I've built walls,
A fortress deep and mighty,
That none may penetrate.
I have no need of friendship; friendship causes pain.
Its laughter and its loving I disdain.
I am a rock,
I am an island.
Dont talk of love,
But Ive heard the words before;
Its sleeping in my memory.
I wont disturb the slumber of feelings that have died.
If I never loved I never would have cried.
I am a rock,
I am an island.
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Thanx Jackster, this expresses Ennis to a T. By the way I owned this when it was an album. oops showing my age!! lol. ;D ;D I believe it's off the Bookends album..Ennis is symbolic to an island, and we can say that he he was surrounded by threatening waters, that he felt could wipe him out at any time A very appropriate name for him.
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This description brings to mind the Paul Simon song from 1965, "I Am A Rock". Most of us of a certain, ahem age, can probably recite the melody from this song in our head. The lyrics are a good picture of Ennis and go something like this . . .
I am a rock,
I am an island.
I've built walls,
A fortress deep and mighty,
That none may penetrate.
I have no need of friendship; friendship causes pain.
Its laughter and its loving I disdain.
I am a rock,
I am an island.
Dont talk of love,
But Ive heard the words before;
Its sleeping in my memory.
I wont disturb the slumber of feelings that have died.
If I never loved I never would have cried.
I am a rock,
I am an island.
Yeah, that song describe Ennis so perfectly!!!
So true: he was an island.... :\'(
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I believe it's off the Bookends album . . .
Sounds of Silence. O0
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This description brings to mind the Paul Simon song from 1965, "I Am A Rock". Most of us of a certain, ahem age, can probably recite the melody from this song in our head. The lyrics are a good picture of Ennis and go something like this . . .
I am a rock,
I am an island.
I've built walls,
A fortress deep and mighty,
That none may penetrate.
I have no need of friendship; friendship causes pain.
Its laughter and its loving I disdain.
I am a rock,
I am an island.
Dont talk of love,
But Ive heard the words before;
Its sleeping in my memory.
I wont disturb the slumber of feelings that have died.
If I never loved I never would have cried.
I am a rock,
I am an island.
I agree. This seems to have been written specifically for Ennis.
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Sounds of Silence. O0
This also. ;)
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Very interesting,Thomas.Then,the meaning of his name and surname as "Island of the sea" has a greater significance.Ennis was a man of an one or only choice,but was as isolated as an island,alone in the inmensity of the sea;he must very often to hide this choice he made because of his own isolation,because of not being able to share this choice with nobody,even with himself.
This is so interesting! Ennis - Island of the sea - the man who built the fortress to keep the world out. What's a better fortress than the ocean. Few island nations had ever been successfully invaded. That makes Jack Twist a William the Conquerer.
<^(
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The significence of the name "Ennis" being an isolated island in sea is so interesting and really describes Ennis. Very distant from the rest of the world and surrounded by old traditions, never to change.
I write random stories and me and my friend were thinkin' of names for our charaters and she picked "Seth" for one. That charater became pretty much the antogonist and bad guy in our story and when I was randomly search a baby name definition site, I checked out the name it pretty much means "Devil's Advocate" >:D
Interesting? We didn't even realize it!!
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Names are fascinating.
In the choice of the name "Jack Twist", we have evidence that Proulx was being deliberate about the choice of name for this character (i.e., in her dedication to Jake Gyllenhaal on the copy of BBM she gave him.) I would think that there was a similar deliberation with the choice of the name "Ennis del Mar".