Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: shieldmaid on Apr 24, 2006, 07:00 PM
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Today I was surreptitiously watching selected scenes at work, and I got to thinking about the scene between the two tent scenes, when Jack is lying on his side on the mountain and Ennis comes by to talk to him and perhaps "get things straight" between them. I love this scene because their facial expressions are so subtle and yet communicate so much--I'm amazed that Heath can show so much of his anxiety and discomfort even from a side angle. We can see Ennis turning his head slightly to glance at Jack a few times, and his jaw tightening and relaxing before he speaks. I was wondering, after watching this a few times, whether he comes up there with that specific intention. Does he intend to tell Jack that they're "just friends"? Or does seeing Jack again maybe make him amend his statement to "this is a one-shot thing we've got going on here"? This scene contains my least favorite line in the whole movie--"you know I ain't queer"--yet it also shows them trying to communicate verbally for the first time. I wonder what Jack thought Ennis was coming up there to do--shoot him (as someone else suggested elsewhere in this forum)? Talk to him? Say he was sorry? That he loved him? Could things have gone differently with them if they had said more? I just kept thinking about all these things since immediately after this scene they have their night of tenderness in the tent.
Thoughts?
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I had always thought here that it was Jack who came up to where Ennis was herding the sheep.
Jack should have been in camp at that time.
He wanted to be with Ennis, and see how things stood between the two of them.
Ennis realized the strangeness of Jack being up there and so he knew what was afoot.
Both had to verbally communicate somehow. Jack was probably afraid that Ennis would repudiate the first night. He was anxious. Ennis was nervous. They tried to articulate what both of them did not yet fully understand.
This is the beauty of this scene.
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Like TPE I thought it was Jack that went up there as Ennis was already up there.
After Ennis rode off without even a response to "See you for supper" I don't think Jack was going to stay in the camp all day and wonder what was going on.
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I had always thought here that it was Jack who came up to where Ennis was herding the sheep.
Jack should have been in camp at that time.
He wanted to be with Ennis, and see how things stood between the two of them.
Ennis realized the strangeness of Jack being up there and so he knew what was afoot.
Both had to verbally communicate somehow. Jack was probably afraid that Ennis would repudiate the first night. He was anxious. Ennis was nervous. They tried to articulate what both of them did not yet fully understand.
This is the beauty of this scene.
Ohhh . . . <light dawns> That makes sense. I don't know why I never thought of that before. Because both of their horses are there, of course. Well, anyway, I love this scene. Their intense need to talk to one another--their shyness and fidgeting--their awakening desire. The cinematography makes the whole scene so iconic: they come together on BBM, as the sun is going down, sitting apart yet positioned at the beginning of their relationship. Sighhh . . .
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Well, anyway, I love this scene. Their intense need to talk to one another--their shyness and fidgeting--their awakening desire. The cinematography makes the whole scene so iconic: they come together on BBM, as the sun is going down, sitting apart yet positioned at the beginning of their relationship. Sighhh . . .
Yes, I love this scene very much also. They were hardly looking at each other, and yet the air was thinck with anticipation and unsaid feelings. You could sense the tension. And the very atmosphere was electric.
Another perfect example when beautiful economy rules in this movie.
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Well, anyway, I love this scene. Their intense need to talk to one another--their shyness and fidgeting--their awakening desire. The cinematography makes the whole scene so iconic: they come together on BBM, as the sun is going down, sitting apart yet positioned at the beginning of their relationship. Sighhh . . .
Yes, I love this scene very much also. They were hardly looking at each other, and yet the air was thinck with anticipation and unsaid feelings. You could sense the tension. And the very atmosphere was electric.
Another perfect example when beautiful economy rules in this movie.
Yes, this scene is so touching, heartachingly sweet. Jack looks so vulnerable, first thing in the morning, then later lying on the mountain. That little sigh he gives before Ennis starts to speak. He really doesn't know how Ennis is going to respond to what happened between them. Gives me the feeling that maybe he's been in this position before (if we assume that he's not completely inexperienced with men) and that maybe the morning after hadn't gone well in the past, so he's especially leery now, waiting for possible rejection from a man he has more than just phyical feelings for.
Does that make any sense? As you say, the beautiful economy that rules this movie leaves so much open for us to interpret.
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It makes sense to me. Thanks MississaugaRed.
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Makes sense to me too. If it was that way, Jack's heart must have been going ninety to the dozen when Ennis started to speak....
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I agree with you!!!
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Jack's heart must have been going ninety to the dozen when Ennis started to speak....
Oh, definitely. They've been thinking about it all day, rolling what happened over and over again in their heads... I think Jack was very aware of his feelings by this point, he knew what he wanted while Ennis was still confused and in denial. As I wrote elsewhere, I think that when he told Jack it was a one shot thing and that he wasn't queer, he was more trying to convince himself of that. And Jack looked... I can't find the words to describe what he looked like just before Ennis began to speak. he glanced at him and he looked... anxious? nervous? hopefull? I don't know. you can actually FEEL the tension in the air, this whole scene is so loaded. and I love the shot of them from behind, sitting next to each other - that's the wallpaper on my desktop... :)
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Jack's heart must have been going ninety to the dozen when Ennis started to speak....
Oh, definitely. They've been thinking about it all day, rolling what happened over and over again in their heads... I think Jack was very aware of his feelings by this point, he knew what he wanted while Ennis was still confused and in denial. As I wrote elsewhere, I think that when he told Jack it was a one shot thing and that he wasn't queer, he was more trying to convince himself of that. And Jack looked... I can't find the words to describe what he looked like just before Ennis began to speak. he glanced at him and he looked... anxious? nervous? hopefull? I don't know. you can actually FEEL the tension in the air, this whole scene is so loaded. and I love the shot of them from behind, sitting next to each other - that's the wallpaper on my desktop... :)
I agree with you Keren that comment was not for jack was more for him, he was so confused on his own feelings at that moment he was having feelings towards Jack and that destroyed the plan he have for his life! he was aware that the FNIT would change his life forever and even with alma as we know she lived under Jack shadow. Ennis was tryingto find a way to convinced himself he was not going to do it again that's you can see how conflicted he is in the SNIT thinking twice before going to the tent with Jack
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This is one of my favourite scenes. It is getting darkish, so I have presumed that Jack waited all day, and then couldn't wait any more, so went up the mountain to see if he could fix things. In terms of body language, watch the rifle in Ennis's hand. As soon as he moved it to his other side, I knew the thing between them was bigger than he(Ennis) could ever deal with, and that their relationship would continue. I knew things would be 'ok'.
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This is one of my favourite scenes. It is getting darkish, so I have presumed that Jack waited all day, and then couldn't wait any more, so went up the mountain to see if he could fix things. In terms of body language, watch the rifle in Ennis's hand. As soon as he moved it to his other side, I knew the thing between them was bigger than he(Ennis) could ever deal with, and that their relationship would continue. I knew things would be 'ok'.
Ouch .. goose bumps again! Ellyjay, now I'm going to have to look at that scene AGAIN to see that gesture of moving the rifle from one hand to the other. Do you mean he moves it to open up room to be closer to Jack, with less between them?? That is so great, another dimension to a scene already full of body language. Thank you for that. :)
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This is a fantastic thread, thank you so much for starting it. The first time i watched the film i was absolutely blown away by this scene. After the urgency and desperate passion of FNIT, and seeing Ennis riding through the barren landscape filled with confusion, the tension of this scene is REALLY intense. I was on the edge of my seat waiting for one of them to SAY something. I love the way Ennis approaches and just stands for seconds lookin into the distance before finally sitting, and the way Jack watches him do this, then looks down and sighs. There is so much in that few seconds of silence - hope, pain, disappointment, fear. For me its the perfect prelude to the romance and beauty of SNIT - its magical. :)
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This is a fantastic thread, thank you so much for starting it. The first time i watched the film i was absolutely blown away by this scene. After the urgency and desperate passion of FNIT, and seeing Ennis riding through the barren landscape filled with confusion, the tension of this scene is REALLY intense. I was on the edge of my seat waiting for one of them to SAY something. I love the way Ennis approaches and just stands for seconds lookin into the distance before finally sitting, and the way Jack watches him do this, then looks down and sighs. There is so much in that few seconds of silence - hope, pain, disappointment, fear. For me its the perfect prelude to the romance and beauty of SNIT - its magical. :)
indeed magical
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This is a fantastic thread, thank you so much for starting it. The first time i watched the film i was absolutely blown away by this scene. After the urgency and desperate passion of FNIT, and seeing Ennis riding through the barren landscape filled with confusion, the tension of this scene is REALLY intense. I was on the edge of my seat waiting for one of them to SAY something. I love the way Ennis approaches and just stands for seconds lookin into the distance before finally sitting, and the way Jack watches him do this, then looks down and sighs. There is so much in that few seconds of silence - hope, pain, disappointment, fear. For me its the perfect prelude to the romance and beauty of SNIT - its magical. :)
Shieldmaid, what a fantastic thread. Thanks for bringing this scene up for discussion. I agree with what everyone has posted so far, and it was so interesting to read ellyjay's post about the rifle that Ennis was holding and how he moves it from one hand to the other. I have never noticed this before, but it's a very clever use of non-verbal communication to express how Ennis is feeling. I also love the way, just after Ennis sits down beside Jack, he looks slightly to the right (note he doesn't look at Jack head-on), and moves his shoulders back slightly, all in preparation to say something to Jack. And you can sense the hope and fear in Jack, looking at Ennis, waiting for him to say something. Because it has to be Ennis who speaks first, he was the one who left the camp without replying to Jack's "see you for supper".
Aimi, I agree that you can feel the tension in the air between them. I also think the use of music is outstanding in this scene. It's so atmospheric and captures the tension perfectly between them, the intensity surrounding Ennis and Jack, whilst sitting on top of a huge, barren landscape. I love the reproach from Jack after Ennis says "you know I aint queer". "Me neither", which is said in such a way that says "well, seeing as you said that, I suppose I'd better say it too". But it's a half-hearted attempt to convince himself as much as Ennis.
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I think Jack said "me neither" because he already knew that there was no way Ennis would continue "this thing" if he thought that Jack was "queer".
This is another scene I can't wait to see again. Hell, I just want to see the whole damn thing again ::)
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I also find it interesting that Ennis on his return, never mentions to Jack the dead sheep. With all the emotions that must have been bubbling inside him he doesn't use this as a tool with which to reproach Jack - 'this is the consequence of what we did'. Instead hes straight to the point with their relationship - he must have known this was all Jack was interesting in hearing about at that moment, and doesn't lay his own guilt regarding the sheep at Jack's door.
Maybe i'm reading more into this than what is there but i keep finding examples of Ennis protecting and 'looking after' Jack and it makes me appreciate his character more and more.
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Another thing I hadn't noticed before Aimi - good spot.
Although Ennis was clearly upset by the dead sheep, though, I do think that the previous night has been pretty much all he's been thinking about all day. Do we not see him looking tormented, something clearly praying on his mind? I certainly remember there was something about that in the screenplay (which I've lent to a friend so I can't check right now) His friendship with Jack has already become very important to him - quite apart from all the other feelings he's discovering - and he knows that there has to be some sort of discussion about what happened otherwise they might not even be able to get back to being friends. So they need to talk, and bringing up the subject of the dead sheep would get in the way of that, so he leaves it out.
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Another thing I hadn't noticed before Aimi - good spot.
Although Ennis was clearly upset by the dead sheep, though, I do think that the previous night has been pretty much all he's been thinking about all day. Do we not see him looking tormented, something clearly praying on his mind? I certainly remember there was something about that in the screenplay (which I've lent to a friend so I can't check right now) His friendship with Jack has already become very important to him - quite apart from all the other feelings he's discovering - and he knows that there has to be some sort of discussion about what happened otherwise they might not even be able to get back to being friends. So they need to talk, and bringing up the subject of the dead sheep would get in the way of that, so he leaves it out.
I agree noReins. It just made it even sweeter for me that Ennis, who usually reacts to things he can't quite understand with aggression has this 'clearing of the air' with Jack before anything else. Like you say Jack had already become so important to him he treats him with care but is also direct. Its really special isn't it? :)
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Wow--I'm awed by everyone's responses. I *knew* there were a lot of reasons why I love this scene! The shifting of the rifle from hand to hand, the music, the fact that Ennis has to speak first, Jack's sigh--all these things both heighten the tension between them and let us know, as ellyjay said, that everything is going to be OK. I really like your idea, too, Aimi, that this is another instance in which Ennis protects Jack. Jack's afraid--of losing Ennis's friendship, of not having his love returned, of being rejected in a more final way--but Ennis ultimately reassures him. I also LOVE the fact that SNIT follows immediately, without any other transition. Just as Jack knew he had to wait for Ennis to speak first--now he has to wait for Ennis to come to him and show his love physically.
must go watch again . . . .
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One comment here, there are times when we think something is happening the very next day; but, if you are familiar with the short story and know something about the screenplay, you will see that sometimes there are days and even weeks passing when the scene changes.
The time elapsing is not as obvious in the movie as it should be. There seems to be a few weeks between the time that Ennis opens up and has a real conversation with Jack beside the campfire and the first night in the tent together.
Sometimes in the movie, you have to look for the difference in the changes of their shirts to know that it is not the same time as it was just a few seconds before up on the screen.
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You're right TJ. I think there was another thread that discussed whether the SNIT occured the night after the first, or whether there was at least another day between them. Since the SNIT isn't in the short story, there's no clues there. Mind you, the short story does say that they both "knew how it would go from there. As it did go, sheep be damned" straight after their first sexual encounter - which does kind of suggest that it was pretty much every night (and during the day too) from that night on.
From that, I'm assuming that Jack goes up to see Ennis sometime in the early evening following their first night together, and that their second night together happens that night.
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I love the reproach from Jack after Ennis says "you know I aint queer". "Me neither", which is said in such a way that says "well, seeing as you said that, I suppose I'd better say it too". But it's a half-hearted attempt to convince himself as much as Ennis.
Jack is constantly doing this. He matches Ennis excuse for excuse, lie for lie. After Ennis tells about "the waitress" (book) or Cassie (movie); Jack returns with "rancher's wife."
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I think this scene was needed..because it was one of the first times they talked about what happend in the tent ..I think both of them were nervous about what the other was thinking and how the person would react as well..there feelings were so new at that point, both wanting to believe there could be something but unsure too..the time period dicated that what they felt and did with each other was foribideen and condemend. you weren't supposed to fall in love with someone of the same sex or even have feelings for them beyond a friendship..I think this scene was well done..they were both nervous and at the same time trying to come to terms with happend and also how they would deal with their feelings and emotions for each other and not wanting to loose this precious friendship that started to blossom between them..
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I love the reproach from Jack after Ennis says "you know I aint queer". "Me neither", which is said in such a way that says "well, seeing as you said that, I suppose I'd better say it too". But it's a half-hearted attempt to convince himself as much as Ennis.
Jack is constantly doing this. He matches Ennis excuse for excuse, lie for lie. After Ennis tells about "the waitress" (book) or Cassie (movie); Jack returns with "rancher's wife."
Christie and Edgar, those are both good responses. In reply to edgar, I consider the waitress and the wife to be lies, too.
Jack seemed to make himself to be equal with Ennis in many situations.
In the last movie scene together when Ennis says, "boys like you," he is one of those boys himself but refuses to admit it. In the book, Ennis says no such thing.
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There are a lot of great insights in this thread!
I never noticed that Ennis moves the rifle from one hand to the other.
I also never thought of it as Ennis protecting Jack either. I'm probably going to cry during this scene the next time because of all of these posts- a lot of things in here I never thought of.
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I also find it interesting that Ennis on his return, never mentions to Jack the dead sheep. With all the emotions that must have been bubbling inside him he doesn't use this as a tool with which to reproach Jack - 'this is the consequence of what we did'. Instead hes straight to the point with their relationship - he must have known this was all Jack was interesting in hearing about at that moment, and doesn't lay his own guilt regarding the sheep at Jack's door.
Maybe i'm reading more into this than what is there but i keep finding examples of Ennis protecting and 'looking after' Jack and it makes me appreciate his character more and more.
totally agree with your point, aimi, even though I had never thought of it before. Dead sheep were the last thing on my mind during this scene!! Ennis knew why Jack was there, and just had to cut to the chase, no matter how hard this was for him. He knew Jack would have been waiting for Ennis's reaction, hoping he'd had time to think about it during the day up with the sheep.
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I love the reproach from Jack after Ennis says "you know I aint queer". "Me neither", which is said in such a way that says "well, seeing as you said that, I suppose I'd better say it too". But it's a half-hearted attempt to convince himself as much as Ennis.
Jack is constantly doing this. He matches Ennis excuse for excuse, lie for lie. After Ennis tells about "the waitress" (book) or Cassie (movie); Jack returns with "rancher's wife."
Christie and Edgar, those are both good responses. In reply to edgar, I consider the waitress and the wife to be lies, too.
Jack seemed to make himself to be equal with Ennis in many situations.
In the last movie scene together when Ennis says, "boys like you," he is one of those boys himself but refuses to admit it. In the book, Ennis says no such thing.
Edgar, you are so right, Jack does mention the rancher's wife straight after Ennis talks about Cassie. I hadn't thought of that before.
But TJ, Ennis DID have a relationship with Cassie, so that wasn't a lie. He may have only been in it to be seen to be doing the right thing, and we know his heart wasn't in it, but he wasn't actually lying. Jack, of course, was lying, as we know it was the rancher himself he was having an affair with, not the rancher's wife.
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Jack's heart must have been going ninety to the dozen when Ennis started to speak....
Oh, definitely. They've been thinking about it all day, rolling what happened over and over again in their heads... I think Jack was very aware of his feelings by this point, he knew what he wanted while Ennis was still confused and in denial. As I wrote elsewhere, I think that when he told Jack it was a one shot thing and that he wasn't queer, he was more trying to convince himself of that. And Jack looked... I can't find the words to describe what he looked like just before Ennis began to speak. he glanced at him and he looked... anxious? nervous? hopefull? I don't know. you can actually FEEL the tension in the air, this whole scene is so loaded. and I love the shot of them from behind, sitting next to each other - that's the wallpaper on my desktop... :)
Oh Keren-b, you are so right. I love your post. There is so much in that "one shot thing" comment from Ennis - even the way he says it. He says it in a very low, almost inaudible way. And I do agree with you, I do think he said it to convince himself as well as Jack. He could have said "that is never going to happen again" but he didn't. I think Jack knew that by Ennis saying "one shot thing" he was letting Jack know that he had unexplainable feelings for Jack, but this was his way of trying to deal with them.
Another example of Ennis's inner turmoil....totally confused by what has happened, but wanting to be with Jack.
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But TJ, Ennis DID have a relationship with Cassie, so that wasn't a lie. He may have only been in it to be seen to be doing the right thing, and we know his heart wasn't in it, but he wasn't actually lying. Jack, of course, was lying, as we know it was the rancher himself he was having an affair with, not the rancher's wife.
I think TJ is talking about the story, rather than the movie. In the story there's no reference to Cassie, other than when they're talking prior to the "miss you so much..." line and even then it's just a passing reference.
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Ok, I've just seen this scene again in it's entirety (I love the fact that I work so close to home that I could nip back for a quick BBM fix now that I've got the dvd!) and I've finally seen Jack's little sigh just before Ennis starts to speak - perfectly acted, the whole weight of the world on his shoulders, dreading what Ennis is going to say to him.
I also think he says "me neither" very quickly, which pretty much confirms what we've all said above - that he says it only to ensure that Ennis won't be driven away by the thought that Jack is gay.
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I also think he says "me neither" very quickly, which pretty much confirms what we've all said above - that he says it only to ensure that Ennis won't be driven away by the thought that Jack is gay.
If I remember correctly, Annie Proulx also wrote that he responded with "me neither" very quickly". Obviously he said that just because he knew this is what Ennis wants to hear.
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I also find it interesting that Ennis on his return, never mentions to Jack the dead sheep. With all the emotions that must have been bubbling inside him he doesn't use this as a tool with which to reproach Jack - 'this is the consequence of what we did'. Instead hes straight to the point with their relationship - he must have known this was all Jack was interesting in hearing about at that moment, and doesn't lay his own guilt regarding the sheep at Jack's door.
Maybe i'm reading more into this than what is there but i keep finding examples of Ennis protecting and 'looking after' Jack and it makes me appreciate his character more and more.
They protect each other. Jack never told Ennis that Aguirre saw them making out. Jack knew that Ennis would have flipped out.
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Ok, I've just seen this scene again in it's entirety (I love the fact that I work so close to home that I could nip back for a quick BBM fix now that I've got the dvd!) and I've finally seen Jack's little sigh just before Ennis starts to speak - perfectly acted, the whole weight of the world on his shoulders, dreading what Ennis is going to say to him.
I also think he says "me neither" very quickly, which pretty much confirms what we've all said above - that he says it only to ensure that Ennis won't be driven away by the thought that Jack is gay.
Yes, and the expression on Jack's face here really breaks my heart. He says "me neither" quickly, to reassure Ennis, but he seems to look at him as though betrayed. I don't think he wants to have to make this statement--but he wants to be "in the same place" as Ennis somehow. If denying queerness is the way to do it, then he will. That's another reason why I think it is so important that Ennis goes to Jack during the SNIT; Jack gives Ennis the verbal confirmation he needs, so then Ennis has to give Jack physical confirmation.
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I love the reproach from Jack after Ennis says "you know I aint queer". "Me neither", which is said in such a way that says "well, seeing as you said that, I suppose I'd better say it too". But it's a half-hearted attempt to convince himself as much as Ennis.
Jack is constantly doing this. He matches Ennis excuse for excuse, lie for lie. After Ennis tells about "the waitress" (book) or Cassie (movie); Jack returns with "rancher's wife."
Christie and Edgar, those are both good responses. In reply to edgar, I consider the waitress and the wife to be lies, too.
Jack seemed to make himself to be equal with Ennis in many situations.
In the last movie scene together when Ennis says, "boys like you," he is one of those boys himself but refuses to admit it. In the book, Ennis says no such thing.
Edgar, you are so right, Jack does mention the rancher's wife straight after Ennis talks about Cassie. I hadn't thought of that before.
But TJ, Ennis DID have a relationship with Cassie, so that wasn't a lie. He may have only been in it to be seen to be doing the right thing, and we know his heart wasn't in it, but he wasn't actually lying. Jack, of course, was lying, as we know it was the rancher himself he was having an affair with, not the rancher's wife.
Not being argumentive here . . . But there are lots of other people besides myself who believe that the bar girl given the name of "Cassie" never existed in the first place when they read the story. I bring the story into this discussion because the name of the major section here is "The Movie & Story." The Movie is not always in agreement with the story as Annie Proulx had published in "Close Range."
To paraphrase Ennis's words here and make comparisons: "The 'I'm putting the blocks to a bar girl' is still me saying 'I'm not no queer'."
And Jack's response was more like this: "So, 'I have been having an affair with a rancher's wife' and since I am just as much as a man as you are, that is me still saying "me neither' to your 'I'm not no queer'."
Cassie only exists in the movie and she exists in Riverton, Wyoming; but, in the book, the unnamed bar girl exists in Signal, Wyoming, which is not even in the same county as Riverton. We know that they are not in the same county when Linda Higgins asks if the Brokeback Moutain is over in Fremont County when Ennis is looking for a BbM postcard in her gift shop and he says, "No, north a here."
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TJ, I think you would agree with me that we are dealing here with 3 distinct entities.
The first is of course the short story, as published in the New Yorker or 'Close Range'
The second is the screenplay, which is based from the short story, but is a distinct work of art.
The third is the movie itself, which is different in ways from both story and screenplay.
The most catholic approach is to take all three entities under the title of "Brokeback Mountain". It is not a question of exegesis. It is a question of appreciating 3 related works of art.
One can make a comparative analysis of all three, but I think it is best to take the stance that there is no one single authority that governs plot or characterization. All three have something to offer.
In this light, one can proceed with greater richness.
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Ok, I've just seen this scene again in it's entirety (I love the fact that I work so close to home that I could nip back for a quick BBM fix now that I've got the dvd!) and I've finally seen Jack's little sigh just before Ennis starts to speak - perfectly acted, the whole weight of the world on his shoulders, dreading what Ennis is going to say to him.
I also think he says "me neither" very quickly, which pretty much confirms what we've all said above - that he says it only to ensure that Ennis won't be driven away by the thought that Jack is gay.
Yes, and the expression on Jack's face here really breaks my heart. He says "me neither" quickly, to reassure Ennis, but he seems to look at him as though betrayed. I don't think he wants to have to make this statement--but he wants to be "in the same place" as Ennis somehow. If denying queerness is the way to do it, then he will. That's another reason why I think it is so important that Ennis goes to Jack during the SNIT; Jack gives Ennis the verbal confirmation he needs, so then Ennis has to give Jack physical confirmation.
I couldn't agree more. I always felt Jack's response was meant to help ensure Ennis wouldn't be frightened away. As long as they both perceived this experience as something they could walk away from they could deal with it for the time being.
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TJ, I think you would agree with me that we are dealing here with 3 distinct entities.
The first is of course the short story, as published in the New Yorker or 'Close Range'
The second is the screenplay, which is based from the short story, but is a distinct work of art.
The third is the movie itself, which is different in ways from both story and screenplay.
The most catholic approach is to take all three entities under the title of "Brokeback Mountain". It is not a question of exegesis. It is a question of appreciating 3 related works of art.
One can make a comparative analysis of all three, but I think it is best to take the stance that there is no one single authority that governs plot or characterization. All three have something to offer.
In this light, one can proceed with greater richness.
I do agree, "tpe." And, we could have 3 different forums relating to Brokeback Mountain. I "own" two "Brokeback Mountain" Yahoo Groups, one for the movie and one for the stand-alone book. I created the one for the published book before I as given ownership of the one for the movie. I don't have a copy of the published screenplay.
Oh, "catholic?" Getting religious here? LOL It is difficult to have a "catholic," aka universal, discussion of only one version of the story because we all did not have the same English Language teachers and we all do not have American English as our first language. But, I did study Standard American English in Public School beginning in first grade and even as a refresher course when I was a graduate student.
And, we all have not had one or more college courses related to the interpretation and/or criticism of literature. (I'm not a know-it-all; but, I had one which was an English class and the other was a theology class. The same basic hermeneutical principles were to be applied in each discipline.)
With some folks in this forum, it is not exegesis, but, eisegesis. When one uses exegesis, one tries to understand the world view of the author and attempt to put oneself in the author's place. Using exegesis, one does not place one's interpretation over the authority of the original writer.
Eisegesis is the substitution of the authority of the interpreter for the authority of the original writer. Some people have interpreted some of Annie Proulx's Wyoming, country/rural, and/or Western expressions according to their lack of knowledge of those 3 areas of expression. And, Annie Proulx showed us that sometimes Jack Twist did not always interpret what Ennis said by the way he meant it. Ennis did not really threaten to kill Jack; but, Jack thought he did. When Ennis wanted a blanket before that first night in the tent, in the book he said "Got you and extra blanket?"; he did not say "Do you have an extra blanket?" Although the latter is what he meant.
IMO, the screenplay writers, at times, used eisegesis to over-ride what Annie Proulx had originally written. According to "Morgan," the moderator of the now defunct "annieproulx.com forum," what is in the books was originally what was in the manuscript she had submitted to the New Yorker Magazine.
Larry McMurtry even admitted to adding women to the original story in a Time Magazine interview. I get the magazine and I even cited that in my BbM groups.
As a "stand-alone" movie . . . meaning if there had no Annie Proulx story in the first place, I consider it to be a great movie as long as I leave out what I know about Pentecostals, Methodists, herding sheep, camping in the (Ozark) mountains, farming, and living in the country (among other things).
As a "stand-alone" short story published in books, I consider what Annie Proulx wrote from a heterosexual woman's POV in regard to homophobia and internalized-homophobia experienced by a guy like Ennis Del Mar to be a classic. That's why I like her story better.
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Ok, I've just seen this scene again in it's entirety (I love the fact that I work so close to home that I could nip back for a quick BBM fix now that I've got the dvd!) and I've finally seen Jack's little sigh just before Ennis starts to speak - perfectly acted, the whole weight of the world on his shoulders, dreading what Ennis is going to say to him.
I also think he says "me neither" very quickly, which pretty much confirms what we've all said above - that he says it only to ensure that Ennis won't be driven away by the thought that Jack is gay.
Yes, and the expression on Jack's face here really breaks my heart. He says "me neither" quickly, to reassure Ennis, but he seems to look at him as though betrayed. I don't think he wants to have to make this statement--but he wants to be "in the same place" as Ennis somehow. If denying queerness is the way to do it, then he will. That's another reason why I think it is so important that Ennis goes to Jack during the SNIT; Jack gives Ennis the verbal confirmation he needs, so then Ennis has to give Jack physical confirmation.
Everyone's posts on this thread are really helping me to see this scene in a completely new way. I've started to see it more clearly, and understand all about the non-verbal communication, and the way Ennis and Jack say what they say. I now see, and totally agree with what NoReins and Shieldmaid say here, that Jack saying "me neither" is just a reaction to what Ennis says to him. He wants this thing to continue with Ennis, and if that means "denying his queerness" then so be it. The things we do for love. :'(
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Everyone's posts on this thread are really helping me to see this scene in a completely new way. I've started to see it more clearly, and understand all about the non-verbal communication, and the way Ennis and Jack say what they say. I now see, and totally agree with what NoReins and Shieldmaid say here, that Jack saying "me neither" is just a reaction to what Ennis says to him. He wants this thing to continue with Ennis, and if that means "denying his queerness" then so be it. The things we do for love. :'(
The things we do for love. I would sometimes try to pick the moment when Jack knew he loved Ennis. Reading these posts makes me believe that it was probably this scene on the hill. Jack was really concerned where things stood between he and Ennis. It doesn't surprise me that he would downplay the "queerness" of this situation to avoid scaring Ennis. I think he would have said anything to be on the same page with Ennis. His eyes told all.
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I would say that Annie Proulx tried to use exegesis in her attempt to understand the world view of her character Ennis Del Mar. That is why she ended up with so many unanswered questions in the minds of her readers.
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Everyone's posts on this thread are really helping me to see this scene in a completely new way. I've started to see it more clearly, and understand all about the non-verbal communication, and the way Ennis and Jack say what they say. I now see, and totally agree with what NoReins and Shieldmaid say here, that Jack saying "me neither" is just a reaction to what Ennis says to him. He wants this thing to continue with Ennis, and if that means "denying his queerness" then so be it. The things we do for love. :'(
The things we do for love. I would sometimes try to pick the moment when Jack knew he loved Ennis. Reading these posts makes me believe that it was probably this scene on the hill. Jack really was really concerned where things stood between he and Ennis. It doesn't surprise me that he would downplay the "queerness" of this situation to avoid scaring Ennis. I think he would have said anything to be on the same page with Ennis. His eyes told all.
Wow--that's a great point. Clearly Jack is attracted to and really likes Ennis for a long time before this scene (short story: "each glad to have a companion where none had been expected"). But seeing this as the moment when Jack realizes the depth of his feelings--that also changes my interpretation of their interaction. As someone said earlier, he waits all day for Ennis to return from the sheep and react to the FNIT--and finally he can't wait any longer. His feelings are uncontrollable--but he manages to hold them in check as he waits for Ennis to respond. Beautiful.
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i really love this scene guys it is so full of non verbal language!!! Jack looking at the horizon on the floor and Ennis comming one have to wonder how much time would Ennis had stared at Jack and how long he would take to him to get the enough courage to talk to Jack, we know that Ennis is not good and words and he probably was trying to find the best way to aproach Jack. and the our Jack (i said our LOL if my girlfriend read this i'm dead :P) looking at Ennis with those eyes he was screaming his feelings to Ennis but he just stood there as Ennis talked to him. I realize Jack attraction towards Ennis from the begining but it most beautiful moment is on the bear scene when he trieds to heal Ennis and Ennis couldn't hold Jack's hands on his body heals himselft. and not to mention when they talk Jacks eyes were saying more than he really said.
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the best is when Ennis kicks the snow and sulks when Jack tells him they gotta leave earlier than expected. Ennis knew his time was cut short - he wasn't ready for that, doesn't know how to handle it and is dissapointed and takes it out on Jack. Then there is the look on Jack's face when Ennis says about leaving his shirt up on the mountain. A blank look yet there is that look.
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Yes, in the scene by the truck when Ennis makes the comment about the shirt, I absolutely knew Jack had taken it. Didn't know they would book-end it so amazingly though! As to the scene on the mountain, I'm just so impressed by how much emotion these guys are able to show us While in Profile! More than most actors in a front-view closeup. Beautiful!
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Yes, in the scene by the truck when Ennis makes the comment about the shirt, I absolutely knew Jack had taken it. Didn't know they would book-end it so amazingly though! As to the scene on the mountain, I'm just so impressed by how much emotion these guys are able to show us While in Profile! More than most actors in a front-view closeup. Beautiful!
Yes, the more I think about it, the more I'm impressed that Ang Lee chose to shoot this scene in this way. It really tells us a lot about their relationship to one another: they can't yet face each other (or their growing love for one another), and they certainly can't make it public (as perhaps facing the camera would suggest), so they sit side-by-side, backs to the camera, barely able to look at one another. They don't touch and speak only 25 words total. Yet we understand--and share--the tension of their unexpressed longing. As the sun goes down across from their mountain, so their attraction for one another grows.
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This is one of my favourite scenes. It is getting darkish, so I have presumed that Jack waited all day, and then couldn't wait any more, so went up the mountain to see if he could fix things. In terms of body language, watch the rifle in Ennis's hand. As soon as he moved it to his other side, I knew the thing between them was bigger than he(Ennis) could ever deal with, and that their relationship would continue. I knew things would be 'ok'.
I found this pic today, and noticed that Ennis' rifle is on the ground beside him. Have never seen that before, and even though ellyjay says that when Ennis holds the rifle, he moves it to the other side, I never actually saw that happen in the film. But this pic proves it did happen, and by doing so, you could say Ennis was not hiding behind a shield (the gun), but opening himself up to such wonderful possibiilties with Jack.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi81.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj237%2Fchristiegwood%2FBrokeback%2520Mountain%2F7c420ebe.jpg&hash=3384f2a48a22ff5ce6c55986e02b87a8c6456df1)
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I found this pic today, and noticed that Ennis' rifle is on the ground beside him. Have never seen that before, and even though ellyjay says that when Ennis holds the rifle, he moves it to the other side, I never actually saw that happen in the film. But this pic proves it did happen, and by doing so, you could say Ennis was not hiding behind a shield (the gun), but opening himself up to such wonderful possibiilties with Jack.
I love this photo, it's on my desktop actually. But in the movie we don't see Ennis putting his rifle on the ground, and this photo seems brighter than in the movie. it's not a screencup, I think this one was taken for promotion purposes, no?
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I found this pic today, and noticed that Ennis' rifle is on the ground beside him. Have never seen that before, and even though ellyjay says that when Ennis holds the rifle, he moves it to the other side, I never actually saw that happen in the film. But this pic proves it did happen, and by doing so, you could say Ennis was not hiding behind a shield (the gun), but opening himself up to such wonderful possibiilties with Jack.
I love this photo, it's on my desktop actually. But in the movie we don't see Ennis putting his rifle on the ground, and this photo seems brighter than in the movie. it's not a screencup, I think this one was taken for promotion purposes, no?
Yeah, I agree with Keren here. Just watched that bit of the movie again (along with some other bits ;)) and we definitely don't see that shot. We don't see whether Ennis put the rifle down or not (although I think he would have) because all we see is the back of his head and the side of his face.
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The promotional picture is so fascinating because they're not sitting next to each other as they do in the film, but Ennis is a little farther ahead. Yet note the position of Jack's legs!! (please don't think I just have a dirty mind, though!) I think it suggests that he's turning toward Ennis, and Ennis is farther down the mountain as the poster is symbolically suggesting his difficulty with the relationship. Also, Ennis's head is visible here (albeit from behind), whereas Jack's is not. Another version of the Titanic-like promo poster, in which Jack is looking down and Ennis to the side.
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Jack's head is visible too, you just have to scroll the pic to the right... :)
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Jack's head is visible too, you just have to scroll the pic to the right... :)
Whoops, my bad. ;) Thanks!
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You can see Jack's emotional pain in this scene. When Ennis says "...one shot thing we got going on here", Jack LOOKS and sounds hurt to me. His "Its nobody's business but ours" sounds almost accusitory. If he indeed DID go up to Ennis in this scene, I think it took a lot of courage on his part, after Ennis riding off that morning not answering his "See you at supper". But I think he was afraid that Ennis might stay with the sheep all night without coming in for supper, and I don't think Jack could have stood that.
He had to get some feeling of how Ennis was thinking at this point. I believe he was afraid that he'd lose Ennis' friendship because of what happened FNIT. I think they both felt like they were walking on eggshells.
Donna
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He had to get some feeling of how Ennis was thinking at this point. I believe he was afraid that he'd lose Ennis' friendship because of what happened FNIT. I think they both felt like they were walking on eggshells.
Donna
I think that stuck out to me quite a bit thru that scene. Even the look on his face as Ennis rode off that morning was a look of worry.
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I think they both felt like they were walking on eggshells.
Donna
THis is a very apt description.
Thanks all for the wonderful posts.
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I found this pic today, and noticed that Ennis' rifle is on the ground beside him. Have never seen that before, and even though ellyjay says that when Ennis holds the rifle, he moves it to the other side, I never actually saw that happen in the film. But this pic proves it did happen, and by doing so, you could say Ennis was not hiding behind a shield (the gun), but opening himself up to such wonderful possibiilties with Jack.
I love this photo, it's on my desktop actually. But in the movie we don't see Ennis putting his rifle on the ground, and this photo seems brighter than in the movie. it's not a screencup, I think this one was taken for promotion purposes, no?
Yeah, I agree with Keren here. Just watched that bit of the movie again (along with some other bits ;)) and we definitely don't see that shot. We don't see whether Ennis put the rifle down or not (although I think he would have) because all we see is the back of his head and the side of his face.
Keren and Noreins, I know you are both no doubt right about this pic, but I just think it is still quite nice to imagine things about a scene that we don't get to see. You know, like how long were they up there for after Jack says "Me neither"? Do they say anything else to each other?
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Keren and Noreins, I know you are both no doubt right about this pic, but I just think it is still quite nice to imagine things about a scene that we don't get to see. You know, like how long were they up there for after Jack says "Me neither"? Do they say anything else to each other?
christie, that's exactly what I've been wondering. Can you imagine the charged silence between them after this exchange took place? Who got up first and led the way back to the horses? Where Ennis looked--and what he thought about--while Jack was making dinner that night? ;) I like to think that they probably didn't say anything else while sitting together but that maybe they glanced sideways at one another a couple more times. Maybe Jack led the way back to the horses--giving Ennis the chance to admire the view. . . .
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Keren and Noreins, I know you are both no doubt right about this pic, but I just think it is still quite nice to imagine things about a scene that we don't get to see. You know, like how long were they up there for after Jack says "Me neither"? Do they say anything else to each other?
christie, that's exactly what I've been wondering. Can you imagine the charged silence between them after this exchange took place? Who got up first and led the way back to the horses? Where Ennis looked--and what he thought about--while Jack was making dinner that night? ;) I like to think that they probably didn't say anything else while sitting together but that maybe they glanced sideways at one another a couple more times. Maybe Jack led the way back to the horses--giving Ennis the chance to admire the view. . . .
That's an interesting line of thought... I love this scene. the looks, the silence, the music. I don't think they said anything after that, I think they just sat there... and then one of them said maybe, "time to head down to the camp" or something like that. and I think they ate in silence, no jokes or songs or stories this time...
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Keren and Noreins, I know you are both no doubt right about this pic, but I just think it is still quite nice to imagine things about a scene that we don't get to see. You know, like how long were they up there for after Jack says "Me neither"? Do they say anything else to each other?
christie, that's exactly what I've been wondering. Can you imagine the charged silence between them after this exchange took place? Who got up first and led the way back to the horses? Where Ennis looked--and what he thought about--while Jack was making dinner that night? ;) I like to think that they probably didn't say anything else while sitting together but that maybe they glanced sideways at one another a couple more times. Maybe Jack led the way back to the horses--giving Ennis the chance to admire the view. . . .
That's an interesting line of thought... I love this scene. the looks, the silence, the music. I don't think they said anything after that, I think they just sat there... and then one of them said maybe, "time to head down to the camp" or something like that. and I think they ate in silence, no jokes or songs or stories this time...
Definitely. I think the next words spoken between them were probably the "s'alright" that Jack whispers in SNIT.
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Definitely. I think the next words spoken between them were probably the "s'alright" that Jack whispers in SNIT.
Wow . . . that gives me chills. Hours of silence--and then this passionate union.
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Definitely. I think the next words spoken between them were probably the "s'alright" that Jack whispers in SNIT.
Wow . . . that gives me chills. Hours of silence--and then this passionate union.
Mmmm. Probably part of what made it so passionate - a whole day (or more) of nerves, tension and desire released with that first kiss.
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Mmmm. Probably part of what made it so passionate - a whole day (or more) of nerves, tension and desire released with that first kiss.
Absolutely!! Jack is practically vibrating with suppressed passion with that first kiss - it's like he's releasing that hold on himself a little bit at a time through those first touches and kisses in SNIT, until he just dives in to devour Ennis, finally.
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Mmmm. Probably part of what made it so passionate - a whole day (or more) of nerves, tension and desire released with that first kiss.
Absolutely!! Jack is practically vibrating with suppressed passion with that first kiss - it's like he's releasing that hold on himself a little bit at a time through those first touches and kisses in SNIT, until he just dives in to devour Ennis, finally.
Hell yeah! You've been reading too much fanfic MissRed ;)
Sorry, back to topic...
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yes, back to topic... (though I realy loved the other topic, too...)
When Jack was lying there on the hill, I thought he looked almost tortured. He spent all day wondering how's Ennis going to react and what was he going to say. I can just imagine the thoughts that ran thru his head when Ennis approached him. "hell, what does he think? is he going to say something about it now? is he going to say something at all? I hope I didn't ruin everything... c'mon Ennis, spit it out already". I bet his heart was beating like crazy, he didn't know what to expect. that look on his face, that little sigh...he didn't look too optimistic. he was waiting all day to hear what Ennis thought, and he prepared himself for the worst.
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I think Jack would have been really scared that Ennis was going to go back into his shell, maybe even more so than that he was going to put a stop to any further physical involvement - terrified that what he had started the night before would have ended the friendship that had become so important to both of them.
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I think Jack would have been really scared that Ennis was going to go back into his shell, maybe even more so than that he was going to put a stop to any further physical involvement - terrified that what he had started the night before would have ended the friendship that had become so important to both of them.
Yes, I agree. But I've always thought, too, that Jack must have been reassured immediately by Ennis's choice of words: "This is a one-shot thing we've got going on here." Not "this only happened once" or "this will never happen again," but something that's "going on," implying that their time together will keep going. ;)
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Oh yes, Ennis's choice of words (or more specifically, choice of tense) would definitely have made Jack relax. My previous thoughts were about how Jack felt before Ennis says anything - at the point where Jack sighs.
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Yes, I agree. But I've always thought, too, that Jack must have been reassured immediately by Ennis's choice of words: "This is a one-shot thing we've got going on here." Not "this only happened once" or "this will never happen again," but something that's "going on," implying that their time together will keep going. ;)
Good point, Shieldmaid - another reassuring thing I think Jack might have heard in Ennis's opening line ... I always get the impression Jack is afraid he's going to get slapped down hard; by Ennis saying "we" it's an admission that they both played a part in what had happened between them the night before. He as an active participate. Ennis wasn't going to cop out and put the whole weight of it on Jack's tender shoulders.
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I've always thought, too, that Jack must have been reassured immediately by Ennis's choice of words: "This is a one-shot thing we've got going on here." Not "this only happened once" or "this will never happen again," but something that's "going on," implying that their time together will keep going. ;)
That's really interesting... in the Hebrew subtitles they've translated it to something like "what happend was a one-shot thing", implying that it happened once and won't happen again, so I always thought that was the meaning and I didn't stop to think that the original sentence in English might have a different meaning. But as you say, Ennis could've reffered to it as something that was still going on... something like: "it's only for this time while we're on this mountain together, but once we get down it'll never happen again, not with you and not with anybody else, because I ain't queer". Do you think that's what he meant??
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I've always thought, too, that Jack must have been reassured immediately by Ennis's choice of words: "This is a one-shot thing we've got going on here." Not "this only happened once" or "this will never happen again," but something that's "going on," implying that their time together will keep going. ;)
That's really interesting... in the Hebrew subtitles they've translated it to something like "what happend was a one-shot thing", implying that it happened once and won't happen again, so I always thought that was the meaning and I didn't stop to think that the original sentence in English might have a different meaning. But as you say, Ennis could've reffered to it as something that was still going on... something like: "it's only for this time while we're on this mountain together, but once we get down it'll never happen again, not with you and not with anybody else, because I ain't queer". Do you think that's what he meant??
Yes, I think that's exactly what he meant.
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Yes, I agree with NoReins on this one (oops--sorry for the pun!!). When I first saw the movie, I thought Ennis was trying to say they were having just a temporary relationship, but then I realized he meant they were going to continue things as long as they were up there--and no longer.
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I think Jack would have been really scared that Ennis was going to go back into his shell, maybe even more so than that he was going to put a stop to any further physical involvement - terrified that what he had started the night before would have ended the friendship that had become so important to both of them.
Yes, I agree. But I've always thought, too, that Jack must have been reassured immediately by Ennis's choice of words: "This is a one-shot thing we've got going on here." Not "this only happened once" or "this will never happen again," but something that's "going on," implying that their time together will keep going. ;)
I agree Shieldmaid, the words that Ennis uses are very important, and Jack would have been waiting with baited breath to see what Ennis was going to say. The fact he not only says "we" and uses the present tense, must go some way to reassure Jack.
Have you noticed how long it takes Jack to respond to the "one shot thing" from Ennis? You see him nodding his head afew times, as if he's taking in what Ennis has said, and is trying to quickly assimilate the words and meaning, before replying with "nobodys business but ours". But what do you think Jack is thinking? Is he thinking "I didn't expect him to say that!" or ""my god, he's acknowledged it happened, he's not saying anything bad about it, he's talking in the present tense"? I know that we will never know what he's thinking, but those few seconds between Ennis talking and Jack feel like a lifetime and I just wonder how he really feels about what Ennis has said to him.
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i watched this scene yesterday and the message in Ennis's words really hit me.
"it's a one shot thing we got going on here"
The first time i read the short story before the movie, I would have predicted that he would have hidden from it all by blaming Jack because up to then, while you could see an interest in Jack growing, I thought he wouldn't have let himself face it.
Ennis could have chosen to put ownership of all that happened and all the emotions involved onto Jack. He had all day to reason it all away. He could have hidden his true feelings from himself ,in the idea that it was just sexual release.... nothing more . And he could have held onto the fact that he could only want a woman, after all didn't he have Alma waiting for him???.
But his words say clearly they are both involved -- both share the same need and can't walk away. While he says it is unique between Jack and him i.e. he wouldn't feel like this with another guy ... he is acknowledging he wants this. I think the "one shot" phrase is this unique relationship, I'm not sure a time limit is in his head at that time.
The power of the need and desire between them must have been overwhelming to have got through Ennis's defences. Truly a force of nature.
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I think Jack would have been really scared that Ennis was going to go back into his shell, maybe even more so than that he was going to put a stop to any further physical involvement - terrified that what he had started the night before would have ended the friendship that had become so important to both of them.
Yes, I agree. But I've always thought, too, that Jack must have been reassured immediately by Ennis's choice of words: "This is a one-shot thing we've got going on here." Not "this only happened once" or "this will never happen again," but something that's "going on," implying that their time together will keep going. ;)
I agree Shieldmaid, the words that Ennis uses are very important, and Jack would have been waiting with baited breath to see what Ennis was going to say. The fact he not only says "we" and uses the present tense, must go some way to reassure Jack.
Have you noticed how long it takes Jack to respond to the "one shot thing" from Ennis? You see him nodding his head afew times, as if he's taking in what Ennis has said, and is trying to quickly assimilate the words and meaning, before replying with "nobodys business but ours". But what do you think Jack is thinking? Is he thinking "I didn't expect him to say that!" or ""my god, he's acknowledged it happened, he's not saying anything bad about it, he's talking in the present tense"? I know that we will never know what he's thinking, but those few seconds between Ennis talking and Jack feel like a lifetime and I just wonder how he really feels about what Ennis has said to him.
christie wood it is really interesting what you just said and it make sense!
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I agree Shieldmaid, the words that Ennis uses are very important, and Jack would have been waiting with baited breath to see what Ennis was going to say. The fact he not only says "we" and uses the present tense, must go some way to reassure Jack.
Have you noticed how long it takes Jack to respond to the "one shot thing" from Ennis? You see him nodding his head afew times, as if he's taking in what Ennis has said, and is trying to quickly assimilate the words and meaning, before replying with "nobodys business but ours". But what do you think Jack is thinking? Is he thinking "I didn't expect him to say that!" or ""my god, he's acknowledged it happened, he's not saying anything bad about it, he's talking in the present tense"? I know that we will never know what he's thinking, but those few seconds between Ennis talking and Jack feel like a lifetime and I just wonder how he really feels about what Ennis has said to him.
christie, That's a great point. What *must* Jack be thinking of in those short--but oh so long!--moments of silence?? Perhaps he's both relieved and a little disappointed--he shows solidarity with Ennis by saying "it's nobody's business but ours" (in their own little club of two!) but also thinks, "please don't think less of me!" In a way, he is probably suffering from the same anxiety that many couples face, of whatever sexual orientation, after they've been intimate together for the first time. "Does he still like me?" "Will we still be friends?" And here, in more specific response to your ideas--"At least we're in this together. He acknowledges what happened. Sounds like it's going to happen again (!). What should I say next??"
Just my speculation--this is a fascinating topic. ;)
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I think Jack would have been really scared that Ennis was going to go back into his shell, maybe even more so than that he was going to put a stop to any further physical involvement - terrified that what he had started the night before would have ended the friendship that had become so important to both of them.
Yes, I agree. But I've always thought, too, that Jack must have been reassured immediately by Ennis's choice of words: "This is a one-shot thing we've got going on here." Not "this only happened once" or "this will never happen again," but something that's "going on," implying that their time together will keep going. ;)
I agree Shieldmaid, the words that Ennis uses are very important, and Jack would have been waiting with baited breath to see what Ennis was going to say. The fact he not only says "we" and uses the present tense, must go some way to reassure Jack.
Have you noticed how long it takes Jack to respond to the "one shot thing" from Ennis? You see him nodding his head afew times, as if he's taking in what Ennis has said, and is trying to quickly assimilate the words and meaning, before replying with "nobodys business but ours". But what do you think Jack is thinking? Is he thinking "I didn't expect him to say that!" or ""my god, he's acknowledged it happened, he's not saying anything bad about it, he's talking in the present tense"? I know that we will never know what he's thinking, but those few seconds between Ennis talking and Jack feel like a lifetime and I just wonder how he really feels about what Ennis has said to him.
christie wood it is really interesting what you just said and it make sense!
What, I actually made sense? Well, that's a first! ;) ;D
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I agree Shieldmaid, the words that Ennis uses are very important, and Jack would have been waiting with baited breath to see what Ennis was going to say. The fact he not only says "we" and uses the present tense, must go some way to reassure Jack.
Have you noticed how long it takes Jack to respond to the "one shot thing" from Ennis? You see him nodding his head afew times, as if he's taking in what Ennis has said, and is trying to quickly assimilate the words and meaning, before replying with "nobodys business but ours". But what do you think Jack is thinking? Is he thinking "I didn't expect him to say that!" or ""my god, he's acknowledged it happened, he's not saying anything bad about it, he's talking in the present tense"? I know that we will never know what he's thinking, but those few seconds between Ennis talking and Jack feel like a lifetime and I just wonder how he really feels about what Ennis has said to him.
christie, That's a great point. What *must* Jack be thinking of in those short--but oh so long!--moments of silence?? Perhaps he's both relieved and a little disappointed--he shows solidarity with Ennis by saying "it's nobody's business but ours" (in their own little club of two!) but also thinks, "please don't think less of me!" In a way, he is probably suffering from the same anxiety that many couples face, of whatever sexual orientation, after they've been intimate together for the first time. "Does he still like me?" "Will we still be friends?" And here, in more specific response to your ideas--"At least we're in this together. He acknowledges what happened. Sounds like it's going to happen again (!). What should I say next??"
Just my speculation--this is a fascinating topic. ;)
You are right sheildmaid, this is an amazing topic, one I could analyse forever. I'm glad you get what I was trying to explain (and carlos_H82 - thanks for backing me up too!!), I feel for Jack so much in this scene, because he was the one who initiated what happened the night before, he was not given anything from Ennis before he left in the morning, so he's had a WHOLE day to worry, and ponder on what Ennis thinks about the situation. Shieldmaid, you sum perfectly for me what I think Jack would be thinking and how he would be reacting to what Ennis has said.
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Thank you all for the most wonderful thoughts. There is so much richness here. I am most grateful.
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Thank you all for the most wonderful thoughts. There is so much richness here. I am most grateful.
Hear hear! It's amazing how there's so many layers in a scene that consists of only four sentences, talk about less is more!
I also think that scene shows Ennis setting out the ground rules, not just for that summer, but for their whole relationship, it's like he's saying "what happens on Brokeback, stays on Brokeback". I sometimes think of this scene when I watch their last scene together, when Jack says "All we got now is Brokeback Mountain...", cause, in the end, that's all they ever had :'( :'( :'(
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I also think that scene shows Ennis setting out the ground rules, not just for that summer, but for their whole relationship, it's like he's saying "what happens on Brokeback, stays on Brokeback". I sometimes think of this scene when I watch their last scene together, when Jack says "All we got now is Brokeback Mountain...", cause, in the end, that's all they ever had :'( :'( :'(
Maybe a bit OOT, but it's funny that I had always thought that having at least Brokeback signified an entire universe of love shared -- in a very deep sense... I look back at the final thoughts of Jack in the short story and realize that his resignation also implied an appreciation for the fact that the deep love they shared for each other was founded on so very little. It is the miracle of a dream of love revealed. And the tacit acceptance of its limitations, first laid out in their sitting on the mountain together, only served to highlight the immense power of that love to survive all.
'Let be...Let be...'
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Maybe a bit OOT, but it's funny that I had always thought that having at least Brokeback signified an entire universe of love shared -- in a very deep sense... I look back at the final thoughts of Jack in the short story and realize that his resignation also implied an appreciation for the fact that the deep love they shared for each other was founded on so very little. It is the miracle of a dream of love revealed. And the tacit acceptance of its limitations, first laid out in their sitting on the mountain together, only served to highlight the immense power of that love to survive all.
'Let be...Let be...'
Thomas, that line brings tears everytime I read it, and we see it unspoken throughout their lives, don't we? I had never before seen it as starting from this scene here, though, as you have clearly shown. What a lovely, heartbreaking thought! :'(
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Maybe a bit OOT, but it's funny that I had always thought that having at least Brokeback signified an entire universe of love shared -- in a very deep sense... I look back at the final thoughts of Jack in the short story and realize that his resignation also implied an appreciation for the fact that the deep love they shared for each other was founded on so very little. It is the miracle of a dream of love revealed. And the tacit acceptance of its limitations, first laid out in their sitting on the mountain together, only served to highlight the immense power of that love to survive all.
'Let be...Let be...'
Thomas, that line brings tears everytime I read it, and we see it unspoken throughout their lives, don't we? I had never before seen it as starting from this scene here, though, as you have clearly shown. What a lovely, heartbreaking thought! :'(
MississaugaRed, I do think the silence is the most eloquent aspect of their love. It is the silence that is so pregnant with emotion when they sit on the mountain. And henceforth, their love is ruled by a silence that is deafening to the heart.
'Let be...Let be...'. It is as if he says: 'stay quiet my heart; I love him in spite of everything.'
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I also think that scene shows Ennis setting out the ground rules, not just for that summer, but for their whole relationship, it's like he's saying "what happens on Brokeback, stays on Brokeback". I sometimes think of this scene when I watch their last scene together, when Jack says "All we got now is Brokeback Mountain...", cause, in the end, that's all they ever had :'( :'( :'(
Maybe a bit OOT, but it's funny that I had always thought that having at least Brokeback signified an entire universe of love shared -- in a very deep sense... I look back at the final thoughts of Jack in the short story and realize that his resignation also implied an appreciation for the fact that the deep love they shared for each other was founded on so very little. It is the miracle of a dream of love revealed. And the tacit acceptance of its limitations, first laid out in their sitting on the mountain together, only served to highlight the immense power of that love to survive all.
'Let be...Let be...'
Beautifully put, thank you! :) And I never really thought about it like that, I guess it just breaks my heart that they never had that "sweet life" that Jack talked about, and it's easy sometimes to lose sight of what they did have :(
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Thanks CrimsonSky. And you're right, we dwell a lot on what could have been. But we are hopelessly in love with this film because of the little that they DID have and shared with each other.
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What beautiful--and heartbreaking--interpretations of this scene. I too love the application of "Let be . . . let be" here. In a way, they make love to one another through their silences--this world which might have been, the only "sweet life" they ever knew. :'(
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shieldmaid, I do see what you mean here: the "sweet life" was never meant to be lived except in the mountains...
I am struck by how solemn this scene is. The words spoken here seemed so very different from the tome I had come to associate with the short story.
It is so taut and fraught with tension -- you feel as if a bond is stretching to the full limit. It serves as a beautiful introduction to the poetic second night scene. In the scene on the mountain, they are struggling to come to terms verbally with how they feel for each other. In the second night scene, you see the resolution beautifully released -- with hardly a word exchanged.
In the second night, they are almost reduced to silence by the power of their love. The scene by the mountain prepared the way.
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You are all so spot on with your comments. And you have expressed yourselves so beautifully! I can't really add anything because you've covered it so well! This is yet another scene that makes me think Ang Lee is amazing (and I've already raved about what our boys did with the material). They can do so much with so little! I'm amazed at how much they bring to life in a scene like this. And sorry if it's OT, but I can't help but think: can you imagine what they could have had if they were able to fully live their love?!
P.S. Just noticed my line above - I don't mean the source material when I say 'with so little'. I mean a minimalist scene like this one. Annie Proulx is awesome.
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P.S. Just noticed my line above - I don't mean the source material when I say 'with so little'. I mean a minimalist scene like this one. Annie Proulx is awesome.
Yes, I know what you had meant: economy.
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P.S. Just noticed my line above - I don't mean the source material when I say 'with so little'. I mean a minimalist scene like this one. Annie Proulx is awesome.
Yes, I know what you had meant: economy.
Exactly. Thanks tpe :)
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When I think about this scene, too, speaking of economy, I always remember how many of the actors (I remember Heath Ledger and Michelle Williams saying this, at least) commented on Ang Lee's minimalist style of directing. He would point in the direction they should be looking, or look into their faces. Heath and Jake really seem to have internalized that approach in this scene, when they let facial tensions, elongated silences, carefully spaced words, and all-that-could-be-but-isn't-said hanging in the air between them do the work instead. . . .
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When I think about this scene, too, speaking of economy, I always remember how many of the actors (I remember Heath Ledger and Michelle Williams saying this, at least) commented on Ang Lee's minimalist style of directing. He would point in the direction they should be looking, or look into their faces. Heath and Jake really seem to have internalized that approach in this scene, when they let facial tensions, elongated silences, carefully spaced words, and all-that-could-be-but-isn't-said hanging in the air between them do the work instead. . . .
Thanks shieldmaid for brining this up. Jake apparently hated Ang Lee's approach, at least initially. He probably didn't realize then what a service this was to him, Heath, Michelle, and Anne.
In making them grapple with interpretation, each of them came to his/her own. The scene in the mountain is a clear testament to this.
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Jack's heart must have been going ninety to the dozen when Ennis started to speak....
Oh, definitely. They've been thinking about it all day, rolling what happened over and over again in their heads... I think Jack was very aware of his feelings by this point, he knew what he wanted while Ennis was still confused and in denial. As I wrote elsewhere, I think that when he told Jack it was a one shot thing and that he wasn't queer, he was more trying to convince himself of that. And Jack looked... I can't find the words to describe what he looked like just before Ennis began to speak. he glanced at him and he looked... anxious? nervous? hopefull? I don't know. you can actually FEEL the tension in the air, this whole scene is so loaded. and I love the shot of them from behind, sitting next to each other - that's the wallpaper on my desktop... :)
I'm late to this discussion, but I love what everyone has said about this scene; and keren you paint the picture beautifully.
So, it seems Jack came up there, waited up on the hill until Ennis was finished with the sheep (maybe they rode back down to camp together). I find it interesting that it was Ennis who spoke first. He acknowledged what had happened the night before; and he didn't say it was a one-shot thing we had [last night], but a one-shot thing we've got going on here, indicating that wasn't the end of it.
And Jack, yes he was nervous, and that is also apparent in his heavy breathing. He does that a few times, it seems, though I can't remember where else just now. His chest rising and falling -- he does that really good. His response is in the same vein as Ennis's, kind of trying to make it not a huge deal maybe. And since it's nobody's business but ours, we can keep doing it.
But the "I ain't queer" thing -- I think Ennis said that because he hadn't had any queer experiences yet, before with Jack, regardless of if he'd ever felt he actually was "different" when growing up. (But of course he somehow at least knew about it or thought about it because no instruction manual was needed. He was no innocent.
But Jack's saying he wasn't queer either -- just a prevarication, though I don't like the idea of Jack doing that, lying more or less. He would say that to make Ennis feel more comfortable being with him? The old thing of straight men who have sex with other men but say they're not gay -- and that's a whole other discussion.
kathy
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This is one of my favourite scenes. It is getting darkish, so I have presumed that Jack waited all day, and then couldn't wait any more, so went up the mountain to see if he could fix things. In terms of body language, watch the rifle in Ennis's hand. As soon as he moved it to his other side, I knew the thing between them was bigger than he(Ennis) could ever deal with, and that their relationship would continue. I knew things would be 'ok'.
Ouch .. goose bumps again! Ellyjay, now I'm going to have to look at that scene AGAIN to see that gesture of moving the rifle from one hand to the other. Do you mean he moves it to open up room to be closer to Jack, with less between them?? That is so great, another dimension to a scene already full of body language. Thank you for that. :)
Yeah, he does position himself a little closer before he sits down, doesn't he?
kathy
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Wow--I'm awed by everyone's responses. I *knew* there were a lot of reasons why I love this scene! The shifting of the rifle from hand to hand, the music, the fact that Ennis has to speak first, Jack's sigh--all these things both heighten the tension between them and let us know, as ellyjay said, that everything is going to be OK. I really like your idea, too, Aimi, that this is another instance in which Ennis protects Jack. Jack's afraid--of losing Ennis's friendship, of not having his love returned, of being rejected in a more final way--but Ennis ultimately reassures him. I also LOVE the fact that SNIT follows immediately, without any other transition. Just as Jack knew he had to wait for Ennis to speak first--now he has to wait for Ennis to come to him and show his love physically.
must go watch again . . . .
Well said -- all the elements of this simple yet richly complex scene. I love the idea of Ennis protecting Jack. I like this specifically because I'm more aware of the ways in which Jack is always comforting Ennis: when Ennis got busted up because of the bear; during the fight in leaving-early scene, and of course in the confrontation scene. But there's protecting, and there's comforting. The dynamics between them, certainly here at the beginning, are quite fascinating. They don't know who they are to each other yet, though they sure know they've gotten to be good buds...and now getting hot for each other's bods.
This is kind of a train-of-thought thing I got going here, so thank you for indulging me.
I tend to think Ennis was rather emotionally inept, but this interpretation has me seing it a little differently. That he would realize what was called for here, in a situation he's certainly never been in before. He feels really strongly already for Jack, or else he might revert to his more usual ways and like beat the crap out of a guy who would dare to make him want to f**k him (!) He has more emotional smarts than apparent.
Then, SNIT, the way he goes in there so uncertain, and it's Jack who takes the lead...
Oh it's a bit much for me this late at night. I could think on this for the rest of my days. I'm glad I don't have it all figured out, because then I get to keep trying to figure it out -- watch some more, think some more, post some more, read your posts some more... :s)
kathy
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Christie and Edgar, those are both good responses. In reply to edgar, I consider the waitress and the wife to be lies, too.
Jack seemed to make himself to be equal with Ennis in many situations.
In the last movie scene together when Ennis says, "boys like you," he is one of those boys himself but refuses to admit it. In the book, Ennis says no such thing.
And when Jack says, "fellas like us go to hell," Ennis denies he's the same as Jack there, too.
kathy
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I also find it interesting that Ennis on his return, never mentions to Jack the dead sheep. With all the emotions that must have been bubbling inside him he doesn't use this as a tool with which to reproach Jack - 'this is the consequence of what we did'. Instead hes straight to the point with their relationship - he must have known this was all Jack was interesting in hearing about at that moment, and doesn't lay his own guilt regarding the sheep at Jack's door.
Maybe i'm reading more into this than what is there but i keep finding examples of Ennis protecting and 'looking after' Jack and it makes me appreciate his character more and more.
They protect each other. Jack never told Ennis that Aguirre saw them making out. Jack knew that Ennis would have flipped out.
Yes -- now that it keeps being pointed out, I see this is so true, their protecting each other, protecting their love from that nasty outside world...
kathy
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And Jack, yes he was nervous, and that is also apparent in his heavy breathing. He does that a few times, it seems, though I can't remember where else just now. His chest rising and falling -- he does that really good.
We this again at the beginning of the SNIT, when Jack is laying in the tent and we see Ennis approaching outside the tent, Jack is breathing hard and looking a bit nervous, perhaps wondering if Ennis would change his mind and go to the sheep instead of coming to him.
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And Jack, yes he was nervous, and that is also apparent in his heavy breathing. He does that a few times, it seems, though I can't remember where else just now. His chest rising and falling -- he does that really good.
We this again at the beginning of the SNIT, when Jack is laying in the tent and we see Ennis approaching outside the tent, Jack is breathing hard and looking a bit nervous, perhaps wondering if Ennis would change his mind and go to the sheep instead of coming to him.
That's another great parallel between these scenes (the mountain conversation and SNIT)--Jack breathes heavily and Ennis comes to him. Again, as in the post-bear scene as well, we see Jack feeling anxious and Ennis reassuring him in some way. Jack's heart is there on his sleeve; Ennis shows his emotions more reluctantly but also can't help himself.
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It is interesting that when they start exchanging words, you really don't catch a glimpse of Ennis's face, while you see Jack's in profile. Jack's eyes are narrowed-out, as if he is trying to see something way in the distance. With Ennis, you see to get the impression that he also gazes out into the distance, even though you don't really get to see his face...
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Too difficult to look at each other at this point? In fact Ennis rode away that morning barely having acknowledged Jack, much less met his eyes. Neiterh knows how the other will react, and by staringout into space they make it easier on each other. Looking into someone's eyes, as they do on SNIT can be both challenging and intimate, and they're not yet secure enough of each other to be either.
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Too difficult to look at each other at this point? In fact Ennis rode away that morning barely having acknowledged Jack, much less met his eyes. Neiterh knows how the other will react, and by staringout into space they make it easier on each other. Looking into someone's eyes, as they do on SNIT can be both challenging and intimate, and they're not yet secure enough of each other to be either.
Yes, I have wondered whether the screenplay was altered a bit here. IN the screenplay, Ennis says something like "Yeah" to answer Jack before he rides off in the morning. That scene, as enacted in the movie, does not seem to contain this affirmation. It is very powerful. It leaves us wondering what is going to happen next. We see Ennis sigh at the sight of the dead sheep. We see Jack shiver by the river. It prepares us to expect that they do not want to look at each other when they finally meet...
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Too difficult to look at each other at this point? In fact Ennis rode away that morning barely having acknowledged Jack, much less met his eyes. Neiterh knows how the other will react, and by staringout into space they make it easier on each other. Looking into someone's eyes, as they do on SNIT can be both challenging and intimate, and they're not yet secure enough of each other to be either.
Yes, I have wondered whether the screenplay was altered a bit here. IN the screenplay, Ennis says something like "Yeah" to answer Jack before he rides off in the morning. That scene, as enacted in the movie, does not seem to contain this affirmation. It is very powerful. It leaves us wondering what is going to happen next. We see Ennis sigh at the sight of the dead sheep. We see Jack shiver by the river. It prepares us to expect that they do not want to look at each other when they finally meet...
So true . . . they spend the intervening hours gathering the courage to speak again, to touch one another and finally look into one another's eyes during SNIT. I love the way, too, speaking of parallels, that Jack is lying down here, waiting for Ennis to come and speak to him, just as he's lying in the tent waiting (or just hoping?) for Ennis to come to him later on.
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So true . . . they spend the intervening hours gathering the courage to speak again, to touch one another and finally look into one another's eyes during SNIT. I love the way, too, speaking of parallels, that Jack is lying down here, waiting for Ennis to come and speak to him, just as he's lying in the tent waiting (or just hoping?) for Ennis to come to him later on.
Come, O come, my life's delight!
Let me not in languor pine:
Love loves no delay, thy sight
The more enjoyed, the more divine.
O come, and take from me
The pain of being deprived of thee.
(Thomas Campion -- might as well be Jack Twist)
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Come, O come, my life's delight!
Let me not in languor pine:
Love loves no delay, thy sight
The more enjoyed, the more divine.
O come, and take from me
The pain of being deprived of thee.
(Thomas Campion -- might as well be Jack Twist)
Beautiful, tpe. Thank you. ^f^
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Come, O come, my life's delight!
Let me not in languor pine:
Love loves no delay, thy sight
The more enjoyed, the more divine.
O come, and take from me
The pain of being deprived of thee.
(Thomas Campion -- might as well be Jack Twist)
Beautiful, tpe. Thank you. ^f^
You're welcome. SNIT is visual poetry. It is a restrained love scene. The fact that 2 men are kissing passionately does not make it any less restrained... Perhaps it is BECAUSE we see 2 men kissing passionately that it takes on a classical restraint not known or seen for so long...
Sorry, a bit OOT again here. :)
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Yes, in the scene by the truck when Ennis makes the comment about the shirt, I absolutely knew Jack had taken it. Didn't know they would book-end it so amazingly though! As to the scene on the mountain, I'm just so impressed by how much emotion these guys are able to show us While in Profile! More than most actors in a front-view closeup. Beautiful!
Yes, the more I think about it, the more I'm impressed that Ang Lee chose to shoot this scene in this way. It really tells us a lot about their relationship to one another: they can't yet face each other (or their growing love for one another), and they certainly can't make it public (as perhaps facing the camera would suggest), so they sit side-by-side, backs to the camera, barely able to look at one another. They don't touch and speak only 25 words total. Yet we understand--and share--the tension of their unexpressed longing. As the sun goes down across from their mountain, so their attraction for one another grows.
Oh, you're so right! This is beautiful, and I hadn't really thought of this. Not only their dynamics, spare words, body language, but the way it was shot, says precisely how things stood between them. Awesome, Mr. Lee; awesome, Messrs. Ledger and Gyllenhaal. Every tiniest movement and silence is so full of expression here in this scene.
kathy
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The promotional picture is so fascinating because they're not sitting next to each other as they do in the film, but Ennis is a little farther ahead. Yet note the position of Jack's legs!! (please don't think I just have a dirty mind, though!) I think it suggests that he's turning toward Ennis, and Ennis is farther down the mountain as the poster is symbolically suggesting his difficulty with the relationship. Also, Ennis's head is visible here (albeit from behind), whereas Jack's is not. Another version of the Titanic-like promo poster, in which Jack is looking down and Ennis to the side.
I was wondering about Jack's leg myself... Maybe a tenting problem going on. Seriously, I love what you said about the symbology of this picture.
kathy
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Keren and Noreins, I know you are both no doubt right about this pic, but I just think it is still quite nice to imagine things about a scene that we don't get to see. You know, like how long were they up there for after Jack says "Me neither"? Do they say anything else to each other?
christie, that's exactly what I've been wondering. Can you imagine the charged silence between them after this exchange took place? Who got up first and led the way back to the horses? Where Ennis looked--and what he thought about--while Jack was making dinner that night? ;) I like to think that they probably didn't say anything else while sitting together but that maybe they glanced sideways at one another a couple more times. Maybe Jack led the way back to the horses--giving Ennis the chance to admire the view. . . .
That's an interesting line of thought... I love this scene. the looks, the silence, the music. I don't think they said anything after that, I think they just sat there... and then one of them said maybe, "time to head down to the camp" or something like that. and I think they ate in silence, no jokes or songs or stories this time...
Oh I love this too, imagining what went on between the hillside scene and when we see Ennis sitting by the fire while Jack's already in the tent. I think you're right, keren, that it would have been an evening with a lot of loaded silences. Except maybe Jack would have nervously dared to say a little disguised affectionate thing, "Time to head down to camp, Cowboy" and Ennis would have been silently thrilled. Then, remember, Jack was the cook during that time, so he would have been glad of something to keep himself busy, and maybe Ennis would have found work to do with the horses or getting wood and all that while Jack cooked...and Jack would have hoped real bad that Ennis liked the dinner he cooked him, and so on and so on...
kathy
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Definitely. I think the next words spoken between them were probably the "s'alright" that Jack whispers in SNIT.
Wow . . . that gives me chills. Hours of silence--and then this passionate union.
Mmmm. Probably part of what made it so passionate - a whole day (or more) of nerves, tension and desire released with that first kiss.
Oh you are killing me... Nerves, tension and desire...following all those days of shy foreplay...and it was indeed passionate, SNIT, but not wild and hard passionate like reunion scene -- more like, this is heaven-on-earth and each wanted to take it slow and milk out every millisecond of sensation and the swellings of emotion...
kathy
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I agree Shieldmaid, the words that Ennis uses are very important, and Jack would have been waiting with baited breath to see what Ennis was going to say. The fact he not only says "we" and uses the present tense, must go some way to reassure Jack.
Have you noticed how long it takes Jack to respond to the "one shot thing" from Ennis? You see him nodding his head afew times, as if he's taking in what Ennis has said, and is trying to quickly assimilate the words and meaning, before replying with "nobodys business but ours". But what do you think Jack is thinking? Is he thinking "I didn't expect him to say that!" or ""my god, he's acknowledged it happened, he's not saying anything bad about it, he's talking in the present tense"? I know that we will never know what he's thinking, but those few seconds between Ennis talking and Jack feel like a lifetime and I just wonder how he really feels about what Ennis has said to him.
So true -- that long silence before Jack speaks is just filled with who-knows-what. Exactly what you said, what was probably going on in Jack's head, and thinking quick what to say. "Nobody's business but ours" is also a way to reassure Ennis that what happens on Brokeback stays on Brokeback. Though he'd probably even at this early stage already know that he's like it to be different, to continue.
kathy
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i watched this scene yesterday and the message in Ennis's words really hit me.
"it's a one shot thing we got going on here"
The first time i read the short story before the movie, I would have predicted that he would have hidden from it all by blaming Jack because up to then, while you could see an interest in Jack growing, I thought he wouldn't have let himself face it.
Ennis could have chosen to put ownership of all that happened and all the emotions involved onto Jack. He had all day to reason it all away. He could have hidden his true feelings from himself ,in the idea that it was just sexual release.... nothing more . And he could have held onto the fact that he could only want a woman, after all didn't he have Alma waiting for him???.
But his words say clearly they are both involved -- both share the same need and can't walk away. While he says it is unique between Jack and him i.e. he wouldn't feel like this with another guy ... he is acknowledging he wants this. I think the "one shot" phrase is this unique relationship, I'm not sure a time limit is in his head at that time.
The power of the need and desire between them must have been overwhelming to have got through Ennis's defences. Truly a force of nature.
Oh! I keep trying to quit this thread and get back to work, and then someone says something else so beautiful it just gets to me. Beautiful, jackie.
kathy
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christie, That's a great point. What *must* Jack be thinking of in those short--but oh so long!--moments of silence?? Perhaps he's both relieved and a little disappointed--he shows solidarity with Ennis by saying "it's nobody's business but ours" (in their own little club of two!) but also thinks, "please don't think less of me!" In a way, he is probably suffering from the same anxiety that many couples face, of whatever sexual orientation, after they've been intimate together for the first time. "Does he still like me?" "Will we still be friends?" And here, in more specific response to your ideas--"At least we're in this together. He acknowledges what happened. Sounds like it's going to happen again (!). What should I say next??"
Just my speculation--this is a fascinating topic. ;)
Yes, and then there is that -- so fascinating! What if Jack was thinking, "What if he didn't like f**king me last night? Was it good for him?" What if Ennis is thinking, "I was so rough with him...but he seemed to like it...but he didn't have an orgasm or did he? and I just finished with him and rolled over and fell asleep." Or maybe, since they were both drunk, their memories are a little fuzzy, and they worry they might have even said something that put the other one off, or...
Speculation 'R Us.
kathy
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It is interesting that when they start exchanging words, you really don't catch a glimpse of Ennis's face, while you see Jack's in profile.
When Ennis says his "one shot thing" and "I ain't queer" lines, he is facing away from the camera he's effectively rendering himself "faceless" by maintaining this straight facade.This suggests to me he's in deep denial. Jack, in contrast, is shown full-face when he replies "nobody's business but ours" and "me neither" . His little facials tics suggest he's lying to keep in Ennis' good graces, but also suggesting that even in "dishonesty", Jack is more "open" than Ennis
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It is interesting that when they start exchanging words, you really don't catch a glimpse of Ennis's face, while you see Jack's in profile.
When Ennis says his "one shot thing" and "I ain't queer" lines, he is facing away from the camera he's effectively rendering himself "faceless" by maintaining this straight facade.This suggests to me he's in deep denial. Jack, in contrast, is shown full-face when he replies "nobody's business but ours" and "me neither" . His little facials tics suggest he's lying to keep in Ennis' good graces, but also suggesting that even in "dishonesty", Jack is more "open" than Ennis
So nicely put! Thank you.
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It is interesting that when they start exchanging words, you really don't catch a glimpse of Ennis's face, while you see Jack's in profile.
When Ennis says his "one shot thing" and "I ain't queer" lines, he is facing away from the camera he's effectively rendering himself "faceless" by maintaining this straight facade.This suggests to me he's in deep denial. Jack, in contrast, is shown full-face when he replies "nobody's business but ours" and "me neither" . His little facials tics suggest he's lying to keep in Ennis' good graces, but also suggesting that even in "dishonesty", Jack is more "open" than Ennis
So nicely put! Thank you.
Most beautifully put.
I would lie to the world for such a love...
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It is interesting that when they start exchanging words, you really don't catch a glimpse of Ennis's face, while you see Jack's in profile.
When Ennis says his "one shot thing" and "I ain't queer" lines, he is facing away from the camera he's effectively rendering himself "faceless" by maintaining this straight facade.This suggests to me he's in deep denial. Jack, in contrast, is shown full-face when he replies "nobody's business but ours" and "me neither" . His little facials tics suggest he's lying to keep in Ennis' good graces, but also suggesting that even in "dishonesty", Jack is more "open" than Ennis
I'd never thought of it like that Frances, but now you say it, it seems to make sense. Very clever isnt it to shoot it that way, in order to emphasise the difference in Ennis and Jack to how they are dealing with this situation.
Thanks Frances - another great insight.
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It is interesting that when they start exchanging words, you really don't catch a glimpse of Ennis's face, while you see Jack's in profile.
When Ennis says his "one shot thing" and "I ain't queer" lines, he is facing away from the camera he's effectively rendering himself "faceless" by maintaining this straight facade.This suggests to me he's in deep denial. Jack, in contrast, is shown full-face when he replies "nobody's business but ours" and "me neither" . His little facials tics suggest he's lying to keep in Ennis' good graces, but also suggesting that even in "dishonesty", Jack is more "open" than Ennis
I'd never thought of it like that Frances, but now you say it, it seems to make sense. Very clever isnt it to shoot it that way, in order to emphasise the difference in Ennis and Jack to how they are dealing with this situation.
Thanks Frances - another great insight.
Wow--that's an amazing thought. Ennis is perhaps more truthful when he's facing away, while we get to *see* Jack concealing his true thoughts. As tpe said, though, anything to be with the one he loves. :)
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In Proulx's story Jack says "one shot thing" . I don't give any weight of his words. It seems to me a trying to find whatever works to relieve Ennis's fears.But coming from Ennis's mouth in the film, it's something else. I don't think that Ennis intended to have sex with Jack again after the first time, intended for the second tent scene to happen, he seems to be fighting with himself until he finally heads for the tent. And he doesn't seem completely sure that's what he wants until he finally begins to respond to Jack's kiss
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I agree with Frances. In the ss all Ennis does is affirm that he's not "queer" - all the other words are Jack's and Jack tells lies when it suits him. "A one-shot thing" sounds to me like " a one-off" ie something he's never been involved in before, and that's not true. "Nobody's business but ours" sounds like an attempt to reassure Ennis - I won't talk about this and no-one will ever know."Me neither" is simply not true.
The screenplay changes the meaning quite significantly- I'm not entirely sure Ennis would have made the "one-shot" remark - if you're not queer, you don't have even one-off things, in Ennis's mind anyway.
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I agree with Frances. In the ss all Ennis does is affirm that he's not "queer" - all the other words are Jack's and Jack tells lies when it suits him. "A one-shot thing" sounds to me like " a one-off" ie something he's never been involved in before, and that's not true. "Nobody's business but ours" sounds like an attempt to reassure Ennis - I won't talk about this and no-one will ever know."Me neither" is simply not true.
The screenplay changes the meaning quite significantly- I'm not entirely sure Ennis would have made the "one-shot" remark - if you're not queer, you don't have even one-off things, in Ennis's mind anyway.
Just a thought - when Jack says "one shot thing" in the ss he doesn't say it after the first time, he says it after it's been going on for some time. so this phrase in the story doesn't come to say that "it happened once and won't happen again", like we might interpret it when Ennis says that. I wonder if the screenplay had Ennis say that instead because it sounds as if he's drawing the line here, fighting it... and if so, why they used the present tense instead of the past tense. I'd say it totally changed the meaning, but the real meaning is still obscure to me.
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Some pix. I truly love Jake's portrayal of Jack in this scene, especially in the last pic below. There, he is almost half expecting to lose Ennis who is showing some remorse for what has just been done. The far-away look is consitent with the idea of dreams and the dreamer. He almost dares not face the reality of the situation. You know that at this moment, he will not give up Ennis that easily...
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pleasedancewithme.com%2FClipArtBrokebackMountainGyllenhaalLedgerNoOnesBusiness2.gif&hash=b0bc98f7fa9553aa13460357858fd7452e0cffc2)(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pleasedancewithme.com%2FClipArtBrokebackMountainLedgerGyllenhaalNoOnesBusiness.gif&hash=146f67eb0cc8bbe0a902e5e7688683e744f12a0c)(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pleasedancewithme.com%2FClipArtBrokebackMountainGyllenhaalNoOnesBusiness.gif&hash=1950f61a5c07203c93612087a742353fff5ba581)
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Some pix. I truly love Jake's portrayal of Jack in this scene, especially in the last pic below. There, he is almost half expecting to lose Ennis who is showing some remorse for what has just been done. The far-away look is consitent with the idea of dreams and the dreamer. He almost dares not face the reality of the situation. You know that at this moment, he will not give up Ennis that easily...
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pleasedancewithme.com%2FClipArtBrokebackMountainGyllenhaalLedgerNoOnesBusiness2.gif&hash=b0bc98f7fa9553aa13460357858fd7452e0cffc2)(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pleasedancewithme.com%2FClipArtBrokebackMountainLedgerGyllenhaalNoOnesBusiness.gif&hash=146f67eb0cc8bbe0a902e5e7688683e744f12a0c)(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pleasedancewithme.com%2FClipArtBrokebackMountainGyllenhaalNoOnesBusiness.gif&hash=1950f61a5c07203c93612087a742353fff5ba581)
Beautiful screencaps, tpe, thank you for posting these!
Still one of the most tender scenes in BBM, IMO and it's their body language and expressions that make it so. Few words are spoken, much is said ... I love this.
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Some pix. I truly love Jake's portrayal of Jack in this scene, especially in the last pic below. There, he is almost half expecting to lose Ennis who is showing some remorse for what has just been done. The far-away look is consitent with the idea of dreams and the dreamer. He almost dares not face the reality of the situation. You know that at this moment, he will not give up Ennis that easily...
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pleasedancewithme.com%2FClipArtBrokebackMountainGyllenhaalLedgerNoOnesBusiness2.gif&hash=b0bc98f7fa9553aa13460357858fd7452e0cffc2)(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pleasedancewithme.com%2FClipArtBrokebackMountainLedgerGyllenhaalNoOnesBusiness.gif&hash=146f67eb0cc8bbe0a902e5e7688683e744f12a0c)(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pleasedancewithme.com%2FClipArtBrokebackMountainGyllenhaalNoOnesBusiness.gif&hash=1950f61a5c07203c93612087a742353fff5ba581)
Beautiful screencaps, tpe, thank ou for posting these!
Still one of the most tender scenes in BBM, IMO and it's their body language and expressions that make it so. Few words are spoken, much is said ... I love this.
Thanks MississaugaRed. The entire sequence of scenes surrounding this si most wonderfully done. Even then music is noteworthy -- the way it transitions from the "Death" music to the beautiful strains that accompny the SNIT.
There is so much tension in this scene on the mountainside. Few words spoken, but the air between them is so thick. You dread every word that comes out of them -- wonderfing whether it would falre uo to denials and recriminations. THe way the tension finally breaks at the start of the SNIT is perhaps one of the most beautiful transitions in BBM.
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Again, I think the palpable tension of this scene just enhances the beauty of SNIT. We are hurting along with Jack as he tries to assess Ennis's reactions--and we feel Ennis's uncertainty as he tries to figure out what to do with these strange, and wonderful, new emotions. The fact that they ARE able, in the end, to speak these few words in this scene makes it all the more satisfying when they come together so completely in the next. Bliss.
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Again, I think the palpable tension of this scene just enhances the beauty of SNIT. We are hurting along with Jack as he tries to assess Ennis's reactions--and we feel Ennis's uncertainty as he tries to figure out what to do with these strange, and wonderful, new emotions. The fact that they ARE able, in the end, to speak these few words in this scene makes it all the more satisfying when they come together so completely in the next. Bliss.
Very much so. Its like a break in stormclouds to let the sun through, the huge weight of nervous tension - 'who will speak first?', it's so dramatic even though the replies are brief, a weight of things are said simply through expression and body language. The setting, at dusk, with just that half light emphasises the drama beautifully, adding more heaviness to the scene. It's remarkable...
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(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pleasedancewithme.com%2FClipArtBrokebackMountainGyllenhaalNoOnesBusiness.gif&hash=1950f61a5c07203c93612087a742353fff5ba581)
All the dreaming is broken through,
Both what is done and undone I rue.
Nothing is steadfast, nothing is true,
But your love for me, and my love for you.
My dearest, dearest heart!
(anonymous 19th Century)
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tpe,
you take my breath away!
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They take our breath away. :)
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Yes they do. And I suspect they always shall.
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So true. ^f^
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Some pix. I truly love Jake's portrayal of Jack in this scene, especially in the last pic below. There, he is almost half expecting to lose Ennis who is showing some remorse for what has just been done. The far-away look is consitent with the idea of dreams and the dreamer. He almost dares not face the reality of the situation. You know that at this moment, he will not give up Ennis that easily...
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pleasedancewithme.com%2FClipArtBrokebackMountainGyllenhaalLedgerNoOnesBusiness2.gif&hash=b0bc98f7fa9553aa13460357858fd7452e0cffc2)(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pleasedancewithme.com%2FClipArtBrokebackMountainLedgerGyllenhaalNoOnesBusiness.gif&hash=146f67eb0cc8bbe0a902e5e7688683e744f12a0c)(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pleasedancewithme.com%2FClipArtBrokebackMountainGyllenhaalNoOnesBusiness.gif&hash=1950f61a5c07203c93612087a742353fff5ba581)
Look how close Ennis sits to Jack's feet...
kathy
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Some pix. I truly love Jake's portrayal of Jack in this scene, especially in the last pic below. There, he is almost half expecting to lose Ennis who is showing some remorse for what has just been done. The far-away look is consitent with the idea of dreams and the dreamer. He almost dares not face the reality of the situation. You know that at this moment, he will not give up Ennis that easily...
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pleasedancewithme.com%2FClipArtBrokebackMountainLedgerGyllenhaalNoOnesBusiness.gif&hash=146f67eb0cc8bbe0a902e5e7688683e744f12a0c)
Look how close Ennis sits to Jack's feet...
kathy
Oh, yeah,I think he can almost feel the heat from Jacks' legs,must have been very cold up there at nights !
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Some pix. I truly love Jake's portrayal of Jack in this scene, especially in the last pic below. There, he is almost half expecting to lose Ennis who is showing some remorse for what has just been done. The far-away look is consitent with the idea of dreams and the dreamer. He almost dares not face the reality of the situation. You know that at this moment, he will not give up Ennis that easily...
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pleasedancewithme.com%2FClipArtBrokebackMountainLedgerGyllenhaalNoOnesBusiness.gif&hash=146f67eb0cc8bbe0a902e5e7688683e744f12a0c)
Look how close Ennis sits to Jack's feet...
kathy
Oh, yeah,I think he can almost feel the heat from Jacks' legs,must have been very cold up there at nights !
Indeed, I was about to comment on this detail yesterday. Ennis may not be able to face Jack at that moment, but he certainly did not shy away from his presence. He probably knew even then that he needed him.
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And metaphorically too he's at Jack's feet - Jack who's leading him to places he's never gone before, Jack who has made him feel, Jack who is teaching him to be a sentient human being.
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And metaphorically too he's at Jack's feet - Jack who's leading him to places he's never gone before, Jack who has made him feel, Jack who is teaching him to be a sentient human being.
And I will hold your hand in mine, in mine when I'm asleep
And I will bare my soul in time, when I'm kneeling at your feet...
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And metaphorically too he's at Jack's feet - Jack who's leading him to places he's never gone before, Jack who has made him feel, Jack who is teaching him to be a sentient human being.
And I will hold your hand in mine, in mine when I'm asleep
And I will bare my soul in time, when I'm kneeling at your feet...
keren_b and welshwitch, these are especially beautiful. I thank you.
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And metaphorically too he's at Jack's feet - Jack who's leading him to places he's never gone before, Jack who has made him feel, Jack who is teaching him to be a sentient human being.
And I will hold your hand in mine, in mine when I'm asleep
And I will bare my soul in time, when I'm kneeling at your feet...
keren_b and welshwitch, these are especially beautiful. I thank you.
Ditto that!!!
So touching and sensitive
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And metaphorically too he's at Jack's feet - Jack who's leading him to places he's never gone before, Jack who has made him feel, Jack who is teaching him to be a sentient human being.
And I will hold your hand in mine, in mine when I'm asleep
And I will bare my soul in time, when I'm kneeling at your feet...
keren_b and welshwitch, these are especially beautiful. I thank you.
Ditto that!!!
So touching and sensitive
Hear, hear!
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Some pix. I truly love Jake's portrayal of Jack in this scene, especially in the last pic below. There, he is almost half expecting to lose Ennis who is showing some remorse for what has just been done. The far-away look is consitent with the idea of dreams and the dreamer. He almost dares not face the reality of the situation. You know that at this moment, he will not give up Ennis that easily...
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pleasedancewithme.com%2FClipArtBrokebackMountainLedgerGyllenhaalNoOnesBusiness.gif&hash=146f67eb0cc8bbe0a902e5e7688683e744f12a0c)
Look how close Ennis sits to Jack's feet...
kathy
Oh, yeah,I think he can almost feel the heat from Jacks' legs,must have been very cold up there at nights !
Indeed, I was about to comment on this detail yesterday. Ennis may not be able to face Jack at that moment, but he certainly did not shy away from his presence. He probably knew even then that he needed him.
And considering Ennis, this was a very "brave" thing for him to do, to sit so close. He made a statement, "I want to sit close to you," instead of staying a manly distance away. God, the more I dwell on it (which is of course all the time) the more meaningful it becomes. In these very moments of this scene, the mad crush of thoughts and feelings that had been in both their heads since FNIT lead them up to this... Just f**king extraordinary acting to give us this very moving scene between them, filled with the deepest things in these men, and touching the deepest places in us.
kathy
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And metaphorically too he's at Jack's feet - Jack who's leading him to places he's never gone before, Jack who has made him feel, Jack who is teaching him to be a sentient human being.
Ohmygod, that's beautiful: "sitting at Jack's feet" and all that that signifies metaphorically.
kathy
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And metaphorically too he's at Jack's feet - Jack who's leading him to places he's never gone before, Jack who has made him feel, Jack who is teaching him to be a sentient human being.
And I will hold your hand in mine, in mine when I'm asleep
And I will bare my soul in time, when I'm kneeling at your feet...
Thats beautiful Keren.
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And metaphorically too he's at Jack's feet - Jack who's leading him to places he's never gone before, Jack who has made him feel, Jack who is teaching him to be a sentient human being.
And I will hold your hand in mine, in mine when I'm asleep
And I will bare my soul in time, when I'm kneeling at your feet...
Thats beautiful Keren.
Well, ever since I've seen the BBM videoclip with "goodbye my lover" (which was a long time ago) this song is stuck in my head, and I love this part in particular.
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Thanks everyone for sharing. This is such a tense, but undeniably beautiful scene. It makes the heart ache with anticipation.
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I am struck in a way by Jack's bravery in going out to face Ennis. It might have been easier for him to wait in camp for Ennis to show up - he didn't know how Ennis would react, he didn't know Ennis wouldn't want to punch his lights out. Yet he still went up there. On the other hand perhaps it was the case that he couldn't wait any longer - he needed to find out what Enns was thinking and feeling about FNIT, if that was the case was that out of a need for resolution for himself, or because he was worried about Ennis - or their flowering relationship.
Either way i admire Jack, and i really feel for him at the start of this scene - the look of resignation on his face is so heartwrenching, and looking at some of these beautiful screencaps how difficult must it have been to stop himself touching Ennis with his foot? I mean, look how close they are?
My two cents - beautiful beautiful scene...
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I think he went up there for all the reasons you mentioned. He wanted to know where Ennis's head was on the matter. To me , he showed alot of courage going up there also. The quiet manner in which he allowed Ennis to speak first revealed much IMO. The not knowing what he was dealing with .,the way Ennis rode off that morning was too much to wait all day to find out about. He needed anwers.....like right now. I loved the way that he just let it be after Ennis spoke his "I aint queer" comment and his "me neither" as they both sat looking over the sheep.The scenery here is simply beautiful.
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It's also "neutral ground" up there - back in camp the tent, the fire, everything would have reminded Ennis of what had happened the night before.
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Very insightful posts bella and ainfoolin. Not knowing what to expect from Ennis had to create a certain level of anxiety for Jack. Allowing Ennis to talk first was a compassionate and very smart move.
On a scenic note, the view is absolutely breath taking.
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Like TPE I thought it was Jack that went up there as Ennis was already up there.
After Ennis rode off without even a response to "See you for supper" I don't think Jack was going to stay in the camp all day and wonder what was going on.
Jack wasn't about to stay down at the camp, he had to know where he stood with Ennis. This whole scene sets the stage for the evolution of their love. Both of them new to the experience, verbally broach the subject superficially denying their attraction to each other, but tacitally showing it through their body language and nervous gestures. Notice that Ennis is sitting in front of Jack, a signal of his dominace and notice Jack's relaxed prostate posture revealing his acceptance of his it. Notice that as his jaw tightens, he has just done a full body sweep of Jack in his all his enticing splendor.
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Jack wasn't about to stay down at the camp, he had to know where he stood with Ennis. This whole scene sets the stage for the evolution of their love. Both of them new to the experience, verbally broach the subject superficially denying their attraction to each other, but tacitally showing it through their body language and nervous gestures. Notice that Ennis is sitting in front of Jack, a signal of his dominace and notice Jack's relaxed prostate posture revealing his acceptance of his it. Notice that as his jaw tightens, he has just done a full body sweep of Jack in his all his enticing splendor.
After a year I am still finding out new things to look for. It's a good thing dvds don't wear out.
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I am struck in a way by Jack's bravery in going out to face Ennis. It might have been easier for him to wait in camp for Ennis to show up - he didn't know how Ennis would react, he didn't know Ennis wouldn't want to punch his lights out. Yet he still went up there. On the other hand perhaps it was the case that he couldn't wait any longer - he needed to find out what Enns was thinking and feeling about FNIT, if that was the case was that out of a need for resolution for himself, or because he was worried about Ennis - or their flowering relationship.
Either way i admire Jack, and i really feel for him at the start of this scene - the look of resignation on his face is so heartwrenching, and looking at some of these beautiful screencaps how difficult must it have been to stop himself touching Ennis with his foot? I mean, look how close they are?
My two cents - beautiful beautiful scene...
Ennis's face we don't see for much of the exchange, but the look on Jack's face is truly enigmatic and inscrutable. His eyes are veiled, and the eyes dream...
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It's also "neutral ground" up there - back in camp the tent, the fire, everything would have reminded Ennis of what had happened the night before.
Very good point.
And he did not confront Ennis. He waited until Ennis was ready to confront him -- in his own terms and on his own ground.
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Very insightful posts bella and ainfoolin. Not knowing what to expect from Ennis had to create a certain level of anxiety for Jack. Allowing Ennis to talk first was a compassionate and very smart move.
On a scenic note, the view is abosolutely breath taking.
The view was certainly the third "character" in the scene. It bore witness to what had and will transpire.
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Jack wasn't about to stay down at the camp, he had to know where he stood with Ennis. This whole scene sets the stage for the evolution of their love. Both of them new to the experience, verbally broach the subject superficially denying their attraction to each other, but tacitally showing it through their body language and nervous gestures. Notice that Ennis is sitting in front of Jack, a signal of his dominace and notice Jack's relaxed prostate posture revealing his acceptance of his it. Notice that as his jaw tightens, he has just done a full body sweep of Jack in his all his enticing splendor.
I agree, it must have been torture for Jack just to wait for Ennis's return. In a way, Jack wanted his presence to assure Ennis and strengthen his feelings for Jack at such a crucial time. Nothing accentuates feelings more than close proximity.
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I am struck in a way by Jack's bravery in going out to face Ennis. It might have been easier for him to wait in camp for Ennis to show up - he didn't know how Ennis would react, he didn't know Ennis wouldn't want to punch his lights out. Yet he still went up there. On the other hand perhaps it was the case that he couldn't wait any longer - he needed to find out what Enns was thinking and feeling about FNIT, if that was the case was that out of a need for resolution for himself, or because he was worried about Ennis - or their flowering relationship.
Either way i admire Jack, and i really feel for him at the start of this scene - the look of resignation on his face is so heartwrenching, and looking at some of these beautiful screencaps how difficult must it have been to stop himself touching Ennis with his foot? I mean, look how close they are?
My two cents - beautiful beautiful scene...
Oh you are so right. Jack is such a fascinating person, his willingness to put himself out there, show his caring. And brave, just as you said. So, that said, what is also interesting is that he just stretched himself out there on the hillside and waited for Ennis to come to him. Presumably anyway -- we didn't see anything to the contrary. He is in a very non-threatening posture, and just waited to see what Ennis's response would be. Ennis is pretty brave, too, you know -- he had to go there to Jack and figure out where to sit, and he is the one who spoke first.
I so agree -- an exquisite scene. Jack's face, so expressive. And what we see of Ennis's.
kathy
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Jack wasn't about to stay down at the camp, he had to know where he stood with Ennis. This whole scene sets the stage for the evolution of their love. Both of them new to the experience, verbally broach the subject superficially denying their attraction to each other, but tacitally showing it through their body language and nervous gestures. Notice that Ennis is sitting in front of Jack, a signal of his dominace and notice Jack's relaxed prostate posture revealing his acceptance of his it. Notice that as his jaw tightens, he has just done a full body sweep of Jack in his all his enticing splendor.
Fascinating, indeed. The body language signifying Ennis's dominance. Is that because he puts his back to Jack, and putting your back to someone says that other person is not a threat? If he had sat slightly behind Jack, so that Jack couldn't see him without turning around, that would seem to be another kind of dominance, kind of threatening in a way.
Ang Lee is genius. And of course his chosen actors, couldn't be better.
kathy
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Fascinating, indeed. The body language signifying Ennis's dominance. Is that because he puts his back to Jack, and putting your back to someone says that other person is not a threat? If he had sat slightly behind Jack, so that Jack couldn't see him without turning around, that would seem to be another kind of dominance, kind of threatening in a way.
Ang Lee is genius. And of course his chosen actors, couldn't be better.
kathy
Yes, these details are noteworthy. So much "said" without recourse to actual words.
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Yes, these details are noteworthy. So much "said" without recourse to actual words.
I couldn't agree more.
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Also with this body posture, Ennis did'nt have to look directly at Jack. He still was not ready to be face to face about it. The slight turn of the sideways glance as he spoke revealed alot.
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They weren't face-to-face in FNIT or on the mountain; not till SNIT did they confront each other and look directly into one another's eyes, which was also the point when they were both ready to accept what was happening to them.
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This is true WW, Ennis seemed to be searching Jack's eyes for something here I feel. Whatever it was ,he definitly found it. Gawd, I love it!
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This is one time Jack would not be put off by Ennis. No matter what Ennis said, Jack was going to get his way. From the very beginning of this scene, Jack's face is set firmly. He is NOT going to let Ennis get out of this relationship at this point. Maybe Jack didn't know exactly where it was going, but he was not going to let Ennis say "no", in my opinion.
When Ennis said this was a one-shsot thing, Jack didn't flinch or back down one bit. He answered,"It's nobody's business but ours". He had spoken. Now he just had to wait until that night to see what Ennis would do. Had Ennis not come to the tent the second night, I don't think Jack would have given up. He was too set on Ennis to back off now.
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Also with this body posture, Ennis did'nt have to look directly at Jack. He still was not ready to be face to face about it. The slight turn of the sideways glance as he spoke revealed alot.
Yes -- Ennis didn't look directly at Jack, but sitting like that makes it so he is visible to Jack (even though not his full face). So that is an interesting dynamic. If he really wanted to hide his feelings from Jack, he would have sat kind of behind Jack. But he didn't want to hide his feelings from Jack; he wanted Jack to see him...but not full-on at this moment.
kathy
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They weren't face-to-face in FNIT or on the mountain; not till SNIT did they confront each other and look directly into one another's eyes, which was also the point when they were both ready to accept what was happening to them.
Well, they were face-to-face for those intense few moments in FNIT, so at least they didn't go into this thing completely blindly, anonymously so to speak.
But certainly SNIT was finally an eyes-meeting, truth-showing time. Though Ennis had trouble meeting Jack's gaze at first.
kathy
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Yes -- Ennis didn't look directly at Jack, but sitting like that makes it so he is visible to Jack (even though not his full face). So that is an interesting dynamic. If he really wanted to hide his feelings from Jack, he would have sat kind of behind Jack. But he didn't want to hide his feelings from Jack; he wanted Jack to see him...but not full-on at this moment.
kathy
That's a good point kathy. There are instances throughotu the film where Ennis is shown to assert his masculintiy/dominace by picking fights, puffing his chest out etc. In this scene i would kind of be expecting him to do that with Jack, but he doesn't. He walks over to him, sees Jack's prone position (almost submissive? I'm thinking of the way my cats roll over and show their bellies as if to say OK i surrender...O/T ???) and sits himself down, bringing himself more on a par with Jack. IMHO he is giving up somewhat of his natural dominance that i would typically associate with him. Fascinating dynamics.
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That's a good point kathy. There are instances throughotu the film where Ennis is shown to assert his masculintiy/dominace by picking fights, puffing his chest out etc. In this scene i would kind of be expecting him to do that with Jack, but he doesn't. He walks over to him, sees Jack's prone position (almost submissive? I'm thinking of the way my cats roll over and show their bellies as if to say OK i surrender...O/T ???) and sits himself down, bringing himself more on a par with Jack. IMHO he is giving up somewhat of his natural dominance that i would typically associate with him. Fascinating dynamics.
I agree about Jack's position, too. He put himself there completely non-threatening, saying to Ennis, "Do with me what you will." And an interesting point you make about Ennis asserting dominance in various ways throughout, but not here. At first, when Ennis is standing there with his gun, he doesn't know exactly where he wants to sit I think; and also, takes a little step or two closer before he sits down?
kathy
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Also with this body posture, Ennis did'nt have to look directly at Jack. He still was not ready to be face to face about it. The slight turn of the sideways glance as he spoke revealed alot.
Yes, that glance must have taken an immense effort on his part.
He was not reaally afraid to face Jack, I suspect. He was probably afraid that the struggle would show too clearly on his face and that Jack would see it and become alarmed. Speculation, perhaps, but one can certainly see it as a tremendous act of will and self-control. His quiet voice belies the turmoil within.
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This is one time Jack would not be put off by Ennis. No matter what Ennis said, Jack was going to get his way. From the very beginning of this scene, Jack's face is set firmly. He is NOT going to let Ennis get out of this relationship at this point. Maybe Jack didn't know exactly where it was going, but he was not going to let Ennis say "no", in my opinion.
When Ennis said this was a one-shsot thing, Jack didn't flinch or back down one bit. He answered,"It's nobody's business but ours". He had spoken. Now he just had to wait until that night to see what Ennis would do. Had Ennis not come to the tent the second night, I don't think Jack would have given up. He was too set on Ennis to back off now.
Yes, I did think there was quiet determination in Jack's face. He was willing "spin" it any way Ennis would want it provided that he gets Ennis to face up to his own and Jack's desires.
Jack here was a pragmatist. And like all pragmatists, they understand that "one-shot thing" could become an eternity.
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That's a good point kathy. There are instances throughotu the film where Ennis is shown to assert his masculintiy/dominace by picking fights, puffing his chest out etc. In this scene i would kind of be expecting him to do that with Jack, but he doesn't. He walks over to him, sees Jack's prone position (almost submissive? I'm thinking of the way my cats roll over and show their bellies as if to say OK i surrender...O/T ???) and sits himself down, bringing himself more on a par with Jack. IMHO he is giving up somewhat of his natural dominance that i would typically associate with him. Fascinating dynamics.
Wonderful point. The fight right before coming down from the mountain was a fluke -- in the sense that Jack's timing was not right and that Ennis was more angru at himself than with Jack. But in this scene, we see Ennis almost submissive. Docile, relatively speaking. I think it was a way of expressing his love for Jack.
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I agree about Jack's position, too. He put himself there completely non-threatening, saying to Ennis, "Do with me what you will." And an interesting point you make about Ennis asserting dominance in various ways throughout, but not here. At first, when Ennis is standing there with his gun, he doesn't know exactly where he wants to sit I think; and also, takes a little step or two closer before he sits down?
kathy
It was like an annunciation...
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Yes, I did think there was quiet determination in Jack's face. He was willing "spin" it any way Ennis would want it provided that he gets Ennis to face up to his own and Jack's desires.
Jack here was a pragmatist. And like all pragmatists, they understand that "one-shot thing" could become an eternity.
Interesting point tpe!
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Anyway, I don't think Jack ever agreed to the "one-shot thing." "Ain't nobody's business but ours" doesn't sound like a "yes" to me...
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True TPE- it doesn't. :) And as you stated in an earlier post he would have put any type of spin on it if it meant keeping Ennis.
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Anyway, I don't think Jack ever agreed to the "one-shot thing." "Ain't nobody's business but ours" doesn't sound like a "yes" to me...
Yes, that is so interesting. Jack's answer is not an answer to what Ennis said. Also, probably a bit canny on his part (this man thinks on his feet, or on his ass or wherever) to say this, hopefully letting Ennis know that what happens on Brokeback stays on Brokeback...
kathy
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Yeah, I thought it was his way to reassure Ennis. something like "don't worry, go with your heart, nobody's gonna know".
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True TPE- it doesn't. :) And as you stated in an earlier post he would have put any type of spin on it if it meant keeping Ennis.
I believe that to be true too. In addition to finding out where Ennis's head was at, Jack seemed to want to put him at ease. I think Jack would have said what was necessary to ensure that. This is not to imply Jack set out to be deceptive.
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In a more general sense it also strikes me as a rathr independent-minded statemnet - suggesting that one can make one's own criteria and isn't necessarily subject to those of wider society. Or perhaps that the mountain is their world, where they make the rules?
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Thanks everyone. I also think there was an element of desperation on Jack's part to keep Ennis from repudiating anything that had developed between them. I'm sure he was struggling mightily inside of himself during that quiet and tense exchange. And I think Jack read Ennin correctly at that moment, so that his responses were not just understandable: they were calculated to reassure Ennis and Jack himself that there would be no remorse.
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In a more general sense it also strikes me as a rathr independent-minded statemnet - suggesting that one can make one's own criteria and isn't necessarily subject to those of wider society. Or perhaps that the mountain is their world, where they make the rules?
The mountain did provide a certain peace and serenity. It made things certainly easier for the two of them to come to terms with what was developing between them.
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In a more general sense it also strikes me as a rathr independent-minded statemnet - suggesting that one can make one's own criteria and isn't necessarily subject to those of wider society. Or perhaps that the mountain is their world, where they make the rules?
Good point, WW, that Jack would want to indicate to Ennis that all the old rules don't apply. That this love-thing is indeed not anyone else's business. Unfortunately, that only worked for them on the mountain.
kathy
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True TPE- it doesn't. :) And as you stated in an earlier post he would have put any type of spin on it if it meant keeping Ennis.
Yes, that is so interesting. Jack's answer is not an answer to what Ennis said. Also, probably a bit canny on his part (this man thinks on his feet, or on his ass or wherever) to say this, hopefully letting Ennis know that what happens on Brokeback stays on Brokeback...
kathy
Thanks LJN and kathy.
Evasion is sometime the best strategy. Jack probably suspected that Ennis understood the deeper implications, but realized that Ennis was not about to own up to these implications -- at least out in the open. Hence, Jack's enigmatic response. The fact that Ennis responded "You know I ain't queer" told Jack that Ennis understood.
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Yeah, I thought it was his way to reassure Ennis. something like "don't worry, go with your heart, nobody's gonna know".
You are right, keren. It was an oblique reassurance. I think Jack understood that Ennis can't face up to the relationship out in the open. But it was also an oblique way of telling Ennis: "I don't care."
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I believe that to be true too. In addition to finding out where Ennis's head was at, Jack seemed to want to put him at ease. I think Jack would have said what was necessary to ensure that. This is not to imply Jack set out to be deceptive.
Yes, I don't think Jack had a reason for responding this way -- it was not driven by a need to be deceptive. I think he realized that Ennis understood things at a deeper level, but was afraid of what he saw. Ennis needed reassurance at least in Jack's eyes, and Jack knew what was wanted of him...
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In a more general sense it also strikes me as a rathr independent-minded statemnet - suggesting that one can make one's own criteria and isn't necessarily subject to those of wider society. Or perhaps that the mountain is their world, where they make the rules?
The mountain did provide a certain peace and serenity. It made things certainly easier for the two of them to come to terms with what was developing between them.
Good point, WW, that Jack would want to indicate to Ennis that all the old rules don't apply. That this love-thing is indeed not anyone else's business. Unfortunately, that only worked for them on the mountain.
kathy
Yes, I also thought that the statement suggested a challenge as much as it was meant to reassure Ennis. It was a challenge born of the Mountain, and probably needed it to flourish. I think this was why Ennis and Jack wnt back to the mountains in later years -- to affirm the fact and to set themselves apart.
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It's very American, too, the notion that you can turn your back on the old country and ways and go to the new world and start over making your own rules, laws, customs.
Before the Pilgrim Father landed they saw themselves as about to become a city on a hill, a beacon to the rest of mankind - ironically Jack and Ennis turn their hill into a little world of their own, with their own rules, but keep it hidden from everyone, so that in the end, as Jack says, all they have is Brokeback Mountain.
When I looked at that scene again, I thought of "For God's sake let us sit upon the ground
And tell sad stories of the deaths of kings,"
but also of the idea of measuring one's length on the ground, six feet of earth, which is all you're going to have in the end. For me there was a lot of foreshadowing in this scene.
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I agree ww. A lot of foreshadowing.
It is in the spirit of Whitman, this Mountain world of theirs...
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Ennis set the rules, but he was the one that couldn't live with the rules, and that's was his battle. Jack left it open, it was no one's business but theirs.
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Perhaps Ennis thought he could. After all, he probably thought that he didn't really have a choice...